Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:02 - ID#206235)
@ Nick @ C... Repost
I hope you don't mind if I repost what you wrote in the wee hours. It ought to be reposted ought to be mandatory reading for every whining, bitching, moaning, spoiled, born into prosperity, Dolt in America... you know the ones I mean...the ones who have NO CLUE what hardship, challenge, sacrifice, and character are all about.

Date: Tue Nov 10 1998 21:17
Nick@C ( G'day LGB ) ID#386245:

We get a bit snippity sometimes down under when we hear all the Americans complaining about their lack of freedoms. They have obviously never left their own back yard. I spent many years in the US. I have also lived many years in 'other' countries. Most Yanks have absolutely no idea how good they've got it!! Sure--I decry what is wrong with American society along with everyone else on this forum. I sure as hell know where I'd live if you gave me a choice of America/China/Indonesia/N.Korea/Yugoslavia etc. Spoiled brats often don't know they are spoiled.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:03 - ID#411259)
..... JTF .....

Thanks for the physics, I will gnaw on that during some quiet time in the next few days.

Thank you also for your Veteran's Day wish.

I just wish the "intelligent life" you wrote of would be smart enough to leave the boys at home.

I think Ali had it right when he said" I ain't got nuthin against those Viet Congs. The never did nothin to me"

Many on this site have seen the horrors that war brings firsthand. They, foremost among men, wish it to never happen again.

A tough act to balance when the world offers us the likes of Hitlers and Hussiens.

There comes a time when standing tall and strong is the more merciful course.

But one would wish that this weren't so

So damned often


(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:06 - ID#206235)
@ Asian markets up
Fairly strong bullish action in the major Asian markets, Nikkei included. World recovery on the way I tell ya..... 10,000 DOW in 99.

Yes EJ, we agree. The most profitable strategy is to sit in cash, ( or GOLD of course! ) on the sidelines when Boom's turn to busts and then jump back in cheap, buy low, sell hig hand all that.

But the timing man....the timing........ so few can time market tops and bottoms. So few......

Lan Man
(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:08 - ID#320108)
@At least columnist Carl Limbacher Jr. continues his investigative reports on the Danny Williams story, the 13-year-old Little Rock boy who has alleged Bill Clinton is his father.

Dannys aunt and guardian says that she has recently been visited by people identifying themselves as FBI agents, and has suffered a pattern of harassment from the Little Rock police. She alleges the police even killed her dog.


At least the boy is still alive.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:16 - ID#24135)
Armchair Quarterback WAKES ..
for the bugal boy ..
Got that right .. that last speech of yours .. I think
you got it from an old DIRTY HARRY video .. only when
you say it sounds like harry is short and fat .. with
no gun .. more like DIRTY JANET.. know what I mean ..
but thanks for the compliment .. and have another
orange ..

for JIM Bob ..
Im very intersted in what happened on the Goldfields
distribution .. Im not familiar .. check with your
broker .. was anything auctioned off ..
.. nothing happened to rangy .. NAV is what it was ..
local price fell in a heap mainly .. I had VERY little
but now IF I can buy at these prices I will .. It is
approaching the CAM discount .. You cant blame Kebble
.. this was forced on him and if shareholders simply
sat still .. no one would have been hurt.

For Robnoel ..
For some reason RSA abounds with RED lawyers ..
Albie Sachs is as you know a prime example. But they
are thinning out .. Also seems like most are Jewish ..
.. many now get jobs as human rights lawyers ..
some of them are killed in the townships .. by
neighbors of the Blacks they represent .. ironic hey.
.. saw Albie in Capetown one day .. one of his arms
had been blown off by a BOSS boobytrap in Mozambique.
Hes a bit of an idiot .. a Sea Point product .. but
he likes Mozart .. cant be all bad.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:17 - ID#341312)
Armistice Day and why it matters
As has been pointed out, Nov. 11 marks the armistice of WWI. It is supposed to honor the many brave American soldiers who lost their lives defending freedom against tyranny and evil. Quite a few posters from other countries have pointed out, and rightly so, the contributions their own servicemen made in both world wars to preserve liberty. I must strongly object, however, to the idea that those Americans who point out the eroding freedoms in our country are somewhow ungrateful or unappreciative of our own country because many other governments are far worse. Yes, most of them are but the Americans who take freedom for granted are not here. They're the ones who won't even notice Nov. 11, don't know or care what Memorial Day commemorates, think "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" comes from the U.S. Constitution ( of which they are only dimly aware ) , and continue to vote for politicians whose cradle to grave socialism, rapidly increasing police powers, and high taxation are the very antithesis of the values of personal freedom and responsibility that were the basis of the Bill of Rights. We don't complain because we are "spoiled", we complain because we are aware of what is slowly being taken away from us law by law, tax by tax. We have been given a birthright of freedom, paid for by the blood of soldiers too numerous to count, and we are throwing it all away in a dumbed down, media brainwashed orgy of blindness and apathy. The behavior of certain federal agencies is becoming eerily similar to the police state tactics of our former enemies. Admittedly, the bad guys are a small proportion of the overall total but the trend is quite clear. No, we're not there yet. The process is gradual but it is also unending. On this subject, I see little hope for the future. Most Americans simply don't notice or don't care. To them, Thomas Jefferson is not the author of the Declaration of Independence, he's a dead white male slaveowner who had affairs while in office and nothing more. Sad but true. In another decade or two, we'll be ready to be comfortably merged into a one world "utopia" that would give George Orwell nightmares.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:23 - ID#254288)

Newt and WJC are both members of the CFR.

Maybe it was Ventura that scared Newt out of politics, or was the big mouthed one ordered to leave?

Wonder what Ventura will say when the CFR indicates they want him on the team.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:35 - ID#284255)
Long-Term Capital Is Profitable in November

Long-Term Capital's original investors, including Meriwether
and his deputies, will get little of the profit. They are still
down about 92 percent from the start of the year, one of the
investors said.

Meriwether has told investors that he expected his bets to
turn around. ``While it is extremely disappointing that the
fund's condition necessitated the capital infusion by the
consortium,'' the investment ``provided the best available means
to be able to realize the potential value of the portfolio over
time,'' he said in an Oct. 15 letter to investors.

Email snippet on RCMP
You were right about our Holidays being cancelled.....From December 27/98 to April 15/99 or thereabouts........because of the y2k......but just how will they get ahold of us if nothing works????? I guess I'll be home who knows???

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:35 - ID#25490)
bits and bobs

Well I know what an armchair is, but I'm blessed if I know what a quarter-back is. It has been a most interesting day of posts, again at kitco.

I spoke to several people today, many were not aware that it is 11/11. ( a palindromic date, so it looks the same in ingrish and merkan ) . Others told stories, and reflected on their forefathers.

And we had some interesting info on juniors in Nevada, a little Einsteinian physics, news of a MAE in trouble, Krinton winning a golden shower as the most talented liar, the usual charts and speculation on POG, yup, quite a day at kitco.

Nocte Volens, I suspect you might have trouble sleeping {:- ) Welcome to Kitco, where noone sleeps.

I suspect we have just seen ( scene? ) a small part of your excel skills and data-mining. Thanks for the peek.

Thanks brothers. There are no "right positions" but there are wrong ones. I was out of line last night with brother mozel. I apologise to mo and to kitco for breaching the guidelines.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:44 - ID#284255)
You had better get your generator quickly.

Word on the web is that FEMA has been buying lots of them.
They have been over-riding personal orders and buying in bulk.
And supplies are not keeping up with demand.

There is much going on which is not published.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:44 - ID#340262)
Thrift no Longer Virtue?
Japanese are being encouraged to spend money - cjk -

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:53 - ID#343259)
@Y2k Now fewer than 10,000 hours left.
Now only 9,985 hours to go until 1/1/2000.

At 22:00 hours PST in the Silver State.

Got Silver?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:54 - ID#343259)
You've got less. :- ) .

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 00:58 - ID#24135)
Im a quarter back .. lemme turn around and show you..
For Nick..
saw your 20:41 pow-wow with salty .. my aussie brother..
read fivelighter's efforts.. it speaks much better
than I ever could ..
... also Nick .. examine what you say in light of
"horrible Mozel"'s comments .. YOU speak of fighting
HITLER .. but YOU lived in Australia facing invasion
by Japanese who didnt really take prisoners in the
normal sense of the word in those days ... and many
Aussies and Kiwis fought well and died in Libya
fighting the best the Germans could throw at them ..
the Afrika Korps..
But what were they doing there ?.. fighting for English
interests .. Egypt and the Suez Canal .. not their own
.. The Queen did her work well ..under the Southern
.... The STATE .. love it or leave it..
.... it subverts .. your thought processes ..

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:00 - ID#247190)
Speaking of generators, the local Lowe's store sold 70 of them in a half hour recently. They said they receive no less than 10 calls a day asking about generators. They were to get 40 more in but did not expect them to last long. Their suppliers said there is a big run on them due to the hurricanes in the south and east coast ( US that is )

A couple other friends of mine just purshased an 8000 watt generators from another store which was the last of that particular stores inventory. He said he had been told by his supplier that anymore generators of that particular model would have a 3 month wait.

Like you say; a lot going on that is not being published.

lefty kiwi
(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:01 - ID#32176)
just in from golf and scrolling thru the kitco day
Cherokee ..... most of the time i don't understand more than half of your posts
but what i do understand is cool ....

USA and Sadam its about oil and the USA standard of living as much as anything else.

All politicians suck ....everywhere , and they are leading us into WAR.....the West has lost the right to claim the moral high ground .

Nuclear free NZ is the place to be . But get some Tetracycline just in case its Anthrax that Saddam has in store for the West .

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:02 - ID#347457)
Too much complaining about how bad we have it in the US
Folks go and live in any country and see if people do not complain about "how things go wrong, how the dumb government should be doing things differently". It is in human nature. Grass is always greener over the hill.

I grew up in Europe, traveled and lived in many countries. Went through all "Eastern Europe", spend a lot of time in Germany, Italy, Holland, Switzerland, lived year in Greece. Lived in communist, socialist, and capitalist countries. As a student took three summers off and hitchhiked through the whole Western Europe, not through the airports but in touch with people on the street.

20 years ago I came to the US. I still miss Europe and I go back from time to time on business and to see the family. However, all I can say, I'll take the US any time. There is lot of things wrong with this country, however, just like anything else in life, countries and governments are not perfect. Some of them are better some of them are worse, and some of them are outright bad. The US is one of the best.

Keep looking for perfection, ideal democracy and freedom, try to improve it, but don't judge how good or bad things are just based on your ideal of perfect country and government.

I like very the following quote ( don't know the author ) :
"Information's pretty thin stuff unless mixed with experience"

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:04 - ID#24135)
I may become ..
a Kiwi too ..
Brother salty ..
Lets face it .. they got the best
race horses .. Notice I didnt say
Rugby Team ..

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:08 - ID#411163)
Earle re:police state WOW! To Nick@c and to Terry
the brother inlaw I'll never meet. And to Dave Corcoran, my best friend
We used to hunt all day and never say a word to each other. I never forgot!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:12 - ID#386245)
Deflation/Crisis mode
All this exhuberance returned to the markets has got me worried. Remember, a crash will occur when you LEAST expect it. Now everone is talking about DOW 10,000, DOW 13,000 etc., I am going to take more defensive action. 2B's Brazil article posted yesterday ( as pointed out by Auric ) is a MUST read. This house of cards is sitting on quicksand. I can feel a crocodile moving through the swamp.

OK Nick, what defensive actions are you taking??

Glad you asked:
1 ) I am getting OUT of debt. Paying off/selling some real estate. Scaling down leverage on shares. Deflation=expensive cash. DON'T owe lots of expensive cash.

2 ) I have sold 80% of my shares. In a market crash EVERYTHING will initially go down. I have kept the shares that will gain the most on an increase in the POG. A small, extremely low risk/high gain put position in the works. I have listened and paid attention to Olivia Newton John--Sing along now..."Let's get physical, physical...".

3 ) I am getting personal preparations in order. My family will NOT be in line at the soup kitchen/bank/petrol station, if lines/rationing come to pass.

4 ) Mental preparation. Well under way after a couple of years at Kitco University.

5 ) Physical safety of my family. Best left unsaid, but well under way.
Any of you whom have NOT seriously considered the above ( even if you come to different conclusions and/or preparations ) are doing a serious disservice to your loved ones. Cheers, Nick.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:17 - ID#252150)
Seems ominous for Iraq that Russia has'nt condemmed U.S. threats.
But the mafia is in control & they'd like to get a better price for their oil. Sodom Arabia has capitulated. They have no ethics, principles or business sense & are all doomed. Hard to believe how far they've fallen.

I hope that they at least hold off the attack until Thurs. I shorted an oil service stock ( PDS ) on neg news on mon. Tried to sell it just before close today for a 1400 gain, but for the sake of .10/share it did'nt sell. Did a 24 hr trade with it 2 weeks ago for a 2400 gain. It pays to have CNBC on. If they don't take Iraq's oil out of supply I can see 10 crude within 6-12 months.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:21 - ID#252150)
Tried to cover.
buy it back.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:28 - ID#25490)
Surfin' the eWave to Glory///////////Lucifer's Hammer...............
For the son of Ibn Al Crus'ti
and for the Lefty Kiwi, and for all the E wavers hither and yon. I emailed Ibn Al Crus'ti's son's Ewave analysis to Burt. This is his comment, and he invites others to comment too.....

I'm not very familiar with Gann but the Elliott analysis is
interesting. I'm sticking to my previous interpretations in that my
preferred long term count is that wave 3 peaked at 850 and we are
still in the throes of wave 4, which I'm counting as a double
zig-zag pattern. When it eventually bottoms we can then start the
final wave 5.

Breaking wave 4 down is the hard part, my first ABC pattern bottomed
at 296 in June 82 with the next pattern being a large flat X with an
A high of 509 in Feb 83, a B low of 282 in Feb 85 and a C high of 497
in Dec 87. My second ABC pattern has an A low of 326 in Mar 93, a B
high of 414 in Feb 96 and wave C ( the last one down ) is still in

In looking for a target bottom I would note that the first ABC
pattern corrected 65% of the 850 peak and that the X wave peak
retraced close to a Fibonacci 0.38 of that downwave. Given that
double zig-zags are often related on a 1:1 basis I would expect a
similar 65% decline for the second ABC pattern starting from the 497
peak of wave X. This would give a target of 173 for the final wave C.

If we look at the A and B waves of this zig-zag, the A wave corrected
34% of the 497 peak and the B wave retraced close to 0.5 of that
downwave. Projecting a 1:1 relationship of wave C to wave A gives a
target of 272, close to the Aug 98 low. However, projecting a 1:1.618
relationship gives a target of 183 which is close to the above target
of 173.

Looking at the recent fundamentals occurring in financial markets,
the current Fed pump priming will likely result in an increased risk
of longer term inflation and a consequent devaluation of the $US and
an increase in gold. In the shorter term however, the global risk is
still one of continued deflation and therefore further downward
pressure is likely on the gold price. A significant break below the
recent 273 low would likely indicate further decline to a final
target in the 173-183 range although there appears to be strong
holding support at 273.

Feel free to edit and post this if you wish, as you can see there are
many interpretations of Elliott, probably as many as there are


(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:28 - ID#249244)
You are right like usual...I wish some of our Kitco
brothers would try a piece of life in the U.S.S.R. -
- can you imagine ???...I wish I could see them shopping
for sausage in 1980's....this would raise
their loalty to the "evil" U.S. government
to unimaginable level...

Lan Man
(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:30 - ID#320108)
Bill of Rights ENFORCEMENT

L. Neil Smith:

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:36 - ID#249244)
I would guess that at least one of the reasons of Russian
neutral position on US-Iraq conflict is connected with
expection of massive food assistance from the U.S...You
know, consignee should behave or sender may change its
mind...Like in one movie song: " You for me and me for you."

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:40 - ID#219363)
When your friends say you should buy a car, start an auto plant. When your family wishes you would buy a house, build a city. When your wife wants you to get a job, hire people by the thousands. When your heart tells you to have a dream, build an empire. When your kid asks you to sit and play, sit and play, and you will be a wealthy man.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:48 - ID#386245)
G'day John Disney
Glad to see that you have promoted salty to ..."my Aussie brother."

You have also rather oversimplified WW II. It was not just an 'English' war over territory and rights. Yes, WW II was about control of resources, territory and domination of labour. On a grander scale, however, the war was about tyranny. If you never stand up to the playground bully, you live under his aegis, and you live by his rules. I am proud of my father, who flew many bombing missions over Germany. Under the circumstances, I hope I would have had the courage to do the same.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 01:52 - ID#153110)
@apologator @Armistice Day
Spat meal all over the place upon reading your mea culpa. In consequence of your post, have diverted LMS to residence of Bugall who, on every topic, invariably demonstrates the application of Pope's maxim that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

@Armistice Day Fiveliter made a very eloquent statement, I thought. If no one else remembers, I do, that fiveliter was robbed of his arms by police right here in America, once the land of the free, now the land of the fee.

Better men than Nick@C have chastised us "whiners". There was LBJ and there was Nixon, whose advance men organized toughs to intimidate protestors. And other, all kinds of provocation. The war flag crowd here doesn't need ol' Nicky's help. During the Gulf War, the streets in the USA were festooned with flag and put me in mind of photos from the Third Reich. That was the Hitler Empire, in case Deutsche is not within your ken. Victoria's Empire was OK, but German Empire was all bad. I think that about sums up WWI for me. I can see why you colonials in the E. Empire would take sides and get all excited and rush around in war fever. Even years after like Digger Nick does now. Personally, I think Woodrow Wilson should have festooned a lamp post.

It's not taught in the schools, but it was taught to me mouth to ear that USG lied to Americans and covered up its fiascos in France. When the boys started coming home coughing gas and dying in their wive's and mother's arms, word got around. The American people wanted no part of another war in Europe after that or even of Wilson. To make the world safe for demoncrazy or not. But war is the health of the state and USG needed war, as its socialist prescriptions for the Depression were a failure, and so we got Pearl Harbor.

The E. Empire dead did not die in vain. They preserved the E. Empire. In two wars. The American dead made the world safe for Corporate America and the Greenback Empire.

So, behold the uniformed dead marching, rank on rank, your fathers and grandfathers and other loved ones among them, and salute them as they pass in review in Elysian Fields in your mind. And if they call out "I died for your Freedom. What have you done today ?", have an answer.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:05 - ID#252150)
Oris@Good point. It seems that the USG has got most of the protaganists
where they want them. Not even much protest from the Euros.

I noticed on Yahoo, comments by the Former Irish Ambassador. He had just returned from Iraq & said--to paraphrase "If Clinton & Blair spent an hour in 1 of the hospitals that I was in & saw all the children dying, then I don't think that there would be more talk about another attack"

I really wonder about that. Those 2 individuals might possibly be 2 of the most evil people to ever infest this planet.

No mention of the Irish A. comments in our Cdn right wing rags.

Calling it a night.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:16 - ID#350195)
Armistice/Veterans Day
To all combat veterans ( by choice or by circumstance ) : ( Mozel excluded )
Thank you.
I am able to worry about whether or not my 19 month old son is eaing too much chocolate.
My father ( WWII , Korea ) is visiting, and I introduced him to Kitco.

Gold - better get a grip, soon. ( short term paper-wise )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:19 - ID#284255)
Gold Bullion Coins Now Subsidized?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:26 - ID#386245)
G'day MM...
...and G'day father of MM.
It is good to see that some people do not look a gift horse in the mouth.
Those who died for my right to address you freely in this manner are in our thoughts today--despite the denigrator of their efforts. I will defend his rights as I will my own. This is what they died for. Cheers, Nick.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:40 - ID#252150)
Mozel@My Dad & 2 uncles were in WW2 & somehow made it through.
My Dad was an Admin type & never left England. My 2 uncles were in the Navy. I have to agree though that most of the people who volunteered did so because they could'nt find work. And they became cannon fodder.In WW1 The British Generals were known to send Cdn troops first into some of the
worst battles. I visited the sites of some of the worst battles in Belgium & France--Pashendale, Ypres & several others. IT was incredible to see the 1000s of rows of markers for Cdn soldiers. They were sacrificed by a bunch of pompous, incompetent British aristocrats. And they died bravely at the whim of the corrupt, ruling elite.

I joined the Navy to see the world. Got out & joined the Air Force because it was an easier life & our bases had good golf courses. I could never quite understand why anyone would volunteer to join the Army. They have to dig fox holes and march through snake infested swamps. And that's just basic training. Then again, they get to fire all those weapons & there's even a chance that they might get to kill someone.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:42 - ID#24135)
I agree ..
for brother Oris / nick /etc
Agree US better than Russia China N.Korea ..

Do not think this was ever questioned .. point of
concern is that it is NOWHERE near as good as it was..
.. IMHO .. but to each his own ..

and for my Aussie compatriot .. do you believe that
Australia is a better place than it was before
Whitlam?? .. start by checking pre-whitlam unemployment
numbers .. taxes .. size of Government

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:44 - ID#350195)
I truly appreciate your sentiment.
Especially when I see the cold grey steel of his eyes when he talks of friends that were "extinguished" in a flash. To those, who gave all that they were given in hope of a better tomorrow. Let us not forget, for if we do, our sons will surely learn the lesson again ( finally? ) .
Mozel - when was the last time a baby fell asleep in your arms?

Paper gold will have trouble ( my prediction % is BAD ) for the next 57 days. ( did I cover my "gold-related" clause? )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:48 - ID#284255)
If I've got less then you'll be watching me earlier than I'll be watching you ( :- ) ) )

It always amazes me.
When one of the best traders on Kitco exposes his brain waves.^o-o^

I thought you only needed good looks, a bit of luck and a good broker to be a sucessfull trader.
Once again I was wrong.

Nick@C has just scooped the pool again.

His extrapolation of events unseen.
And how to safeguard ones family and assets is beyond compare.

All should reread his words of warning/commonsense ( is it that common? )
And think and act accordingly to what meets their situation.

Beware and bewarned, the coming financial meltdown & Y2k is no matter to take lightly.
Sitting on the sidelines sneering that these mugs are just pessimistic D&G's and doing nothing is foolhardy.
To wait and wonder, will mean you'll be left behind.

And to all who question Nick@Canabeeras trading accumen.
Look back in the Kitco archives to note his comments as to entering the latest gold rally.
And also his comments to exiting and taking profits.

This dude has a nose that is honed so fine.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:49 - ID#386245)
Why 57 days??

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:52 - ID#386245)
That's ANOTHER beer I owe you. This is getting expensive!!!
Mates like you are hard to find. We shall 'meet' soon. I already 'know' you well from your posts. I like you. You are the salt of the earth.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:53 - ID#350195)
Nick&C@57 days
Actually, it just popped in to me head.
( No better nor worse than any Technologically derive #? )

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:54 - ID#24135)
As usual ..
Nick ..
You misread .. I adressed YOU as
my "aussie brother" .. brotherhood
must have been misplaced .. my error..
The Queen and I Glad to see you very
pleased to fight for English Interests..

for James ..
.. suggest add Dieppe to the list
of Canadian sacrifices .. plus Mountbatten
withheld warships ( fear Germans might sink )
and Bomber Harris couldnt spare planes..
.. when I was a little kid I was told those
were BRITISH Commandos .. Canada wasn't
mentioned till they couldnt cover it up

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:58 - ID#153110)
Thanks for the post. They sent the Cdns in at Dieppe, too, didn't they ? War mongering sentimentalists are accessories after the fact.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 02:58 - ID#284255)
Email just in
I'm a service technician for a petroleum company Ive been involved in the industry for 9 years from every aspect of servicing equipment to sales of new equipment, so I should be realtivly qualified to answer some of your questions.

The Short answer to your question is the prospects of getting gasoline during power outages is slim to none. As a matter of numbers I would estimate your chances of finding a place that can get gas out of there tanks during the first few weeks of power outages is 1/10th of 1 percent of the stations will be able to access there gas..the rest will be sitting ducks with no power.

After a few weeks the savey station owners will re-equip there stations to handle no power gas sales, but the process will be slow and the comapnies that service that equipment will be even slower to retrofit the equipment.

Now for the technical resons for what I say above. In early gas stations, gas was pumped by glorified hand well pumps into upper glass chambers, then gravity fed into the vehicle. ( refrence some early pictures from the 40's, itll show these types of pumps ) ..By the way these area collectors item now and worth a good deal of money if you ever find one.

In the 50's and 60's stations were primarily full service, mechanical pumps, with suction pump units ( require 120 volts to operate ) Hand units went the way of model T's there was no option for hand cranks on these anymore..

In the 70's and 80's the suction units again transformed to pumps mounted below ground in the tanks, ( much like modern well pumps ) these require 220 volts to operate. and the dispenser ( the part you use to fill your tank requires 120 volts )

In the 90's weve moved into full blown computer driven gas dispensers, variable speed frequency controlled well pumps, Vsat satelliet connections, and network driven registers. Most stations in bigger cities, and even most of the ones in rural areas use these type of systems to run..there extremly dependent on power and no buypass options are available. And hand crank options on these are non existent. ( if someone comes up with one theyd make a killing in the third world market, where power is limited to certain times of the day )

As far as back up generators for these sations, out of the 800 or so stations we service only 1 station has a back up generator system the rest are sitting ducks for no power conditions.

Retrofitting stations to go to hand cranked systems, assuming you could find any and the manufacturers of such items could meet the demand, stations would need to be repiped to handle the draw on the pumps, which would involve digging up the tanks, and doing the retrofit, to do that kinda work would require at least 2 days per station.

I could give you a ton of reasons why finding gas in power outages would be nearly impossible but the above comments cover the most of it. If you have any questions please feel free to e mail me, if you want you can postthis responce on the forum for the others to read so they understand what there up against..


(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:00 - ID#284255)
It's the neural network at risk
Its been my experience with every large scale technical project that I
have ever been associated with that there is always an unexpected
"gotcha" problem. Some unexpected combination of things or some unique
quality of a particular element that causes a serious "what do we do
now?". My challenge to this illustrious ng is to speculate on what area
may contain the Gotcha of Y2K. I rather favor a problem in the the
neural-like interlinked telecoms which could create a global cyberdata
"dissonance". I can imagine billions of newly coded, date influenced
data/packet names from a myriad of different sources converging in a
kind of information confusion. The data interfaces we currently have
have evolved over decades. Now we get a simultaneous change ( but NOT
homogeneous ) over the entire global data network. Purely speculative
( and rather fuzzy I realize ) , but the idea is to open our minds to wider
problems caused by a simultaneous change in tens of millions of

There could be future value in such speculation. Perhaps someone here
will be the catalyst to an important future ( as Cory H jumps from his
bath with a "Eureka, I've got it!" ) developement.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:05 - ID#350195)
I ust realized
how incredibly sexist my last posts were.
My daughter ( as yet inconceivable ) would die just as easily as my son.
Carry on y'all.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:07 - ID#284255)
Seems my snozz can smell a beer miles away.
My DB, Helen, is firmly of the opinion, that we'll be stockpiling lots of homebrew kits.

When there's nothing on the boob-tube what else will one want to do.
Keeping company with one's mates chugging a few.

Besides Cairns doesn't have a brewery anymore.
So we'll have to take care of this ourselves.

Could well be a new growth industry.^o-o^

Now where did I put those plans for the still???

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:10 - ID#386245)
Pax Americana@JD@Mozel
JD--you have a lot more in common with me than you realize. One day when 'loose lips sink ships' we shall digress.

Mozel--ditto. I love about half of what you post. The other half tickles my pissed-off nerve, which I've never been able to control. If you knew how much your ideas ( well, some of them anyway ) were in synch with mine, you would probably be willing to have a beer with Canabeera.
Speaking of gold...up 40 centavos.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:16 - ID#350195)
Just for the record
What is the locl time in Hobart, Tasmania ( sentimental thing y'kno?
Gold up - eh I'll wait until it makes a $4.50 move.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:22 - ID#386245)
I was thinking ( now that's a novelty ) just the other day of what I would miss most in a big-time shutdown.

Went straight out and bought some Cooper's home brew, along with sugar, sp. gr. indicator ( % alcohol ) , bottle capper, sterilizer powder etc.. Hell, mate. If Y2K is a disaster, I'm going to sit around and play tiddly winks with gold coins whilst keeping my body fluids lugubrious ( is that a word?? ) . With luck I'll sober up by July and say "What's the fuss?"
Bart--did you notice the mention of gold coins in the above??

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:25 - ID#386245)
I am directly ( more or less ) north of Hobart. The time here is now 7:27pm and 38 50 7:28 and...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:27 - ID#284255)
Y2k Poll so far

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:31 - ID#153110)
@South Sea Sentimentalists @Nick
All this Armistice Day breast beating from downunder, where you might well be speaking Japanese as laborers on the Burma Railway were it not for American blood and treasure, comes across the water a little false sounding when the same voices admonish us to surrender our natural right to keep and bear arms against tyranny every other day of the year.

@Nick Half a beer. Or a glass of untaxed whiskey.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:35 - ID#318183)
rangy and other SA ADR's
1. When non- US listed assets are distributed to US ADR holders they are liquidated at about 1/2 the value. Benefiting those involved in the closed auction.

2. If the ADR's are tied to the value of the SA underlying stock - what difference would it make if the ADR's get delisted for not maintaining a $1.00 minimum value. Keeping the stock listed on NASDAQ benefits the market makers only ( not all spreads on the bulletin boards are horrible )

3. Hyping the ADR's through a dog and pony show - getting interest up and people purchasing the ADR's has NO EFFECT on the real stock price in SA.

4. With more shareholders in the ADR's and assets distributed to the ADR's sold at 1/2 price - more of these assets ends up in whose hands??

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:46 - ID#386245)
Went to a 'trash and treasure' sale the other day.
Bought one of them big metal 44 gal ( 200 litre ) hand pumps for 15 bucks. Hope I can find a use for it.
Now, let's see...200 litres of beer/six months =... hmmm...may need another coupla drums.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:47 - ID#24135)
I knew ..
Nick ..
Id get a beer outta this ..
if I played my cards right

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:48 - ID#25490)
Nicko, I concur, mon frre:

Mozel--ditto. I love about half of what you post. The other half tickles my
pissed-off nerve, which I've never been able to control. If you knew how much
your ideas ( well, some of them anyway ) were in synch with mine, you would
probably be willing to have a beer with Canabeera.

I was thinking today, as the rest of the world was interfering with kitcotime ( you know, like, now those tra-la-la joyriders have ripped the guts outa my car, wrote it off, and I gotta deal with insurance cos, garages, the police, ) If I met mo in a bar, we'd either slug it out on sight, then fall over each other to buy a beer, or we'd fall each over to buy each other a beer, then slug it out, then buy each other a beer....slug it reckon I'll still be the last man standing,,,,hic....splat....

I should not wish to inflame things hereabouts, but, should like to highly recommend travel in forn lands. The forner the better. Like Asia. Like Afrique, like China. Travel far and wide, become a mo of the world. Wouldn't your prose REALLY be something else? Quite in awe if you applied your intellect to the freedom of ALL human beans, not just the merkan beans.

Judging from posts recently, there's almost nowhere a kitconut hasn't been..

I'd like to get to the Rift Valley sometime, anyone seen it? The golden origin ( according to Leakey ) of H Sapiens Sapiens.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:55 - ID#24135)
I agree wholeheartedly ..
for Lakefoil ..
1. yes .. thats what I said .. is there an echo in this
room ..
2. Delisting is not nice .. shakes up the
troops .
3. yes .. I think I said that too ..
so I guess I agree with it ..
4. If I get this right do I win a prize ??

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:55 - ID#386245)
Sent to me by Auric
Send this to YOUR local council. Ask if THEY can guarantee these services to you. If not, WHY NOT!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 03:59 - ID#219363)
Veteran's Day
Sorry for posting off topic yet again. I just wanted to thank all the US veterans who might read this for all you've done for me. I'm only 29 and have never had to consider going off to war, but I was talking with my grandfather one night about his time in Europe, and it got me thinking about how scary it must have been for you guys to go off to an unfamiliar country and fight, and how confusing it must have been at times. I've never had a bullet fired at me, and I've never been up against other people who wanted to kill me, and I really can't imagine what it must have been like being away from your home and your families, possibly being in situations where you didn't know if you'd make it home. I really can't even picture it in my mind, it doesn't seem real that I'd ever have to pick up a gun and fight in a war. I can only guess that after going off to war it must make you a little harder, the things you've seen, things that you may keep to yourselves, maybe things that can never be understood or explained to someone who hadn't been there. I'm sure there were lonely times when you needed someone to talk to, and times when you felt really distant from the people who loved you. I'm sure there were even times that you've felt betrayed, abandoned, or forgotten. For all the veterans, I can only say thank you. It's because of you that I live as well as I do, free, in a peaceful and prosperous world. We do think of you on Veteran's day, and I'm very proud and grateful. I know that no thanks could ever be enough.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:01 - ID#258195)
Monday's and Tuesday's Gold and Silver Lease rates
For Tuesday 10 Nov calculated from data published in Today's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month

Mean GoldLR------4.65---------------4.26-------------3.86-----------------3.45
Gold Lease Rate---0.63---------------1.15-------------1.33-----------------1.64
( Change ) ----- ( - 0.03 ) ------- ( + 0.03 ) ------ ( + 0.08 ) ----------- ( + 0.09 )

Silver Lend Rate----4.10--------------3.25--------------2.45-----------------2.25
Silver Lease Rate---1.18--------------2.16--------------2.74-----------------2.84
( Change ) -------- ( 0.00 ) -------- ( + 0.10 ) ------- ( + 0.03 ) ---------- ( + 0.08 )

For Monday 09 Nov calculated from data published in Tuesday's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month

Mean GoldLR------4.62---------------4.19-------------3.81-----------------3.36
Gold Lease Rate---0.66---------------1.12-------------1.25-----------------1.55
( Change ) ----- ( - 0.05 ) ------- ( - 0.05 ) ------ ( - 0.02 ) ----------- ( - 0.07 )

Silver Lend Rate----4.10--------------3.25--------------2.35-----------------2.15
Silver Lease Rate---1.18--------------2.06--------------2.71-----------------2.76
( Change ) -------- ( - 0.15 ) -------- ( 0.00 ) ------- ( 0.00 ) ---------- ( - 0.05 )
Lease Rate equals $LIBOR minus Lending Rate
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild.
( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day's figures.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:01 - ID#25490)
Mo 3:31
Just when we're seeking detente, you go do that. You really should get out more.

Alien cultures downunder cf merkan, eh Nick? Concealed and obfuscated by the mistaken belief we share a common language. Now, you know I have Malcom Gramaphone's "The Brewer's Bible" and shall be pleased to assist you with the brewing/tasting process with your golden ales. It's ALL in the water. The water determines which is the optimal brew you can put down.

Looking forward to meeting inbound Au_Producer any day now. He's been here several times before, and is well aware of kiwi kulture... ( Speights Great )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:06 - ID#26793)
Morning dollar/yen news and comment from London

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:14 - ID#26793)
Russia returning to Soviet style banking: largest bank to be nationalized

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:15 - ID#318183)
that was to complacent of a response
sounds like someone is getting ripped off - intentionally - ( isn't that stock fraud??? )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:21 - ID#386245)
Have already got the carbon water filter, mate. Everything we drink in this house is filtered of just about anything bigger than a virus. Beer kills what is left.
Gold reacting upward on the Iraq bombing speculation. Get a little fear into the mongrels and stampede up to 325 or so!!!
Mozel--half a glass of beer it is then. UNTAXED whisky would fill your bathtub!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:28 - ID#185448)
Good morning, graveyard-shifters

A read outa Oz3an yellow press:
According to Oz3as Mint, they sold 8,6% more Phillies until the End of Oct, than the same period one year before ( which was said to be the best year ever for them ) . So far, they sold 310.827 Oz, not bad. Also they mentionned that in USofA money withdrawn from bank-accounts is heavily invested into our Phillies ( and others ) due to fears re Y2K.

First time I read Y2K and Gold connected in our papers.

It is unfair to discuss alcoholic topics at a time, when it is coffee-time for an honest anti-antipodean. Either I change my inner clock or I pack my things and move southwards.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:29 - ID#25490)
Tis not the bugs that I am talking about. No. It is the hardness of the water. What SALTS are dissolved in it, in what ratios? Is the water soft or hard? That is the Question. All water is not created equal.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:35 - ID#25490)
Gidday. Yellowcab ( who may or may not be a NY ) taxi, posted this quote from Goethe's Faust the other day:

""nach golde drangt/am golde hangt/doch alles"

While I am grateful for yellowcab's translation, I wonder whether you can have a stab at an argotic translation into ingrish. TIA

Is an anti-antipodean, a 'propodean'?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 04:40 - ID#257312)
Update on "Please Impeach My Commander in Chief"

The Marine who wrote that piece for the Washington Times is now under official investigation. Keep an eye on this story.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:04 - ID#386245)
G'day Fred/Auracious/ALL KITCOITES
Finally a gold post!!!! You have saved the graveyard shift once again, mate. Noone in his right mind ( or hers ) reads the 00:00 to 06:00 shift anyway. It is XXX rated for those drinking coffee.

I have the germ of an idea. We shall be experiencing 00:00 on Jan 1st, 2000 before the rest of you!!!

Now, there must be a quid or two in that!! We could charge the rest of you, say, a gold coin donation just to hear if we are still on-line. Pay up or we shall remain totally silent!!! YOU will think that the end of the world has arrived ( arriven--whatever ) !! Actually, our Kiwi brethren will be the first dominos to fall--then silence shall descend upon Oz. When Fred@Vienna and John Disney are totally silent, you will all be out digging foxholes!!!

I am also going to organize a phone call to Noo Zeeland at one minute past midnight on 01/01/00. In fact I may be speaking to Auracious at the stroke of midnight. I could then report the results to the rest of you--as he may not be able to ( Then again, services in Auckland are a day to day proposition at the best of times ) . Could be an interesting exercise. We'll call it THE KITCO Y2K EARLY WARNING ALERT SYSTEM!!!!

Any thoughts???

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:08 - ID#185448)
Zum Golde drngt, am Golde hngt doch alles.
Now its hard to transloop JWGs fine art of languaging from germ to glish ( Please un-delete the en ) but it means approximately Everything sticks to gold, everything goes for the gold ( h - is this glish?! ) . I mean, Goethes position is definitely pro-gold, recognizing the attraction of Au. But - in this specific case as presented in Faust, attraction has two faces, the good an honest as well as the greedy one. Material goods and money ( here: "Gold" ) can also bring out the dark sides of ones character. You can interpret the citation also as the ultimate believe that all human efforts are subordinated not to the spiritual but to the material aspects in life. Faust, who gives up his christian values for profane purposes.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:16 - ID#25490)

Tip o' the Akubra to ya pal. Of course! the Kitco Early Warning Link ( aka KEWL ) shall be glad to be at the kiwi end of a phone at 00:00:01 01 01 00. Can't promise to be standing, or alone, but I'll have a phone in one hand.

BTW, didja know there are many planned celebrations in NZ for 00:00:01 01 01 00? Hotels are booked throughout the East Coast, the place where the sun shines first....all very different from those merkans who choose to skulk in foxholes ( fox in skunkholes? ) anyhoo..we're mostly planning a big pissup....kinda like that Australian Classic Cult Movie "Smoke 'em if you've got em"...When I remarked to a friend that the merkans are, well, planning for the Y2K rather differently from us, she said, after I explained who the 'merkans' are, "Merkans were always flappable."

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:27 - ID#25490)

Superb!. I had to double take on Oz3as and Oz3an but Eureka! What beauty in this anguish languish you dextrously reveal.

So much pleasure you have brought me. Thanks.


( Please un-delete the en )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:31 - ID#153110)
@Force & Fraud @Federal War on the states and the people
Edited and posted by a midget on behalf of a giant. It's about gold and that government that deceived people into laying down their lives for it in war.

Specie--Gold or silver coins of the coinage of the United States. Belford v. Woodward, 158 Ill 122, 41 Ne 1097. Ballentine's Law Dictionary Third Edition, 1969.
Enemy--The status of a person as an "enemy" for the purpose of the application of the Trading with the Enemy Act is determined with reference to domicil or residence in the territory of the nation which is a belligerent against the United States rather than according to nationality, 56 Am. Jur 1st War Section 83, Ballantines Law Dictionary Third Edition, 1969. Hence, living in a state would make you an "enemy" as the federal since 1860 has considered the constitutional states to be belligerent against it.

The first use of Emergency or War Power was by George Washington in 1791. This was to enable Washington, at Hamilton's insistence, to use an existing private bank, controlled by the Crown through its British Board of Trade, to become the first bank of the United States. Jefferson and two other men wrote constantly to Washington telling him that there was no such authority in the Constitution to create such a bank. Neither Jefferson nor the other two men could sway Washington. Washington went ahead and created the First Bank of the United States.

Also at this time he overlaid the states into "districts of the United
States." He did this so that those state banks, who after the creation of
the First Bank, were forced to contract with the First Bank in New York
so they could continue to operate with United States money. Washington
did this because the United States deposited all the money it collected
into all the private banks in each of the states from before the
Revolutionary war to the institution of the First Bank of the United
States. The United States wanted to centralize all its accounts in this
First Bank while allowing the hundreds of other banks scattered
throughout all the states to continue to hold its money. This is
much like the coprorate takeovers of today, where a large bank absorbs
small banks who continue to operate as satellite banks with all the
accounts having to clear through the parent bank. This then allowed the
foreign British controlled bank to more easily collect and pay back the
debt owed the Crown by the State and United States as was directed in
Article VI of the United States Constitution.

The First Bank of the United States was not at all owned by the Congress but was privately controlled by the British Board of Trade stockholders. The Bank, if begun in France, would be called the First Bank of France. Do not let the terminology fool you into thinking that it was a Bank created by Congress. The ownership was foreign. The "foreigners," noted as Stockholders, were many Americans and therefore, foreigners to the international banking industry. Most of these foreign bankers came from England. Chief Justice John Marshal held the second highest shares in this bank. The documents I have, show that Marshall was considered a "foreign stockholder." ( See McCulloch v Maryland, opinion, by Marshall, in favor of the Bank ) He was foreign because the bank was a foreign concern operating within America. Marshall, being a United States citizen, was a foreign Stockholder. The Tories were helpful in setting the stage for the inception of the Bank. The Tories were people controlled and working for the King. The King did not want the Rothschilds or the Lombards to take control of the first bank in the United States. The King wanted his bank of England to control the first bank. This setup went back to the Treaty of 1783, the one signed by Sam Huntington, President, and emanated from that treaty.

The Second major use of Emergency and War Power: President Lincoln used the War Power during the Civil War to create certain statutes, the
most important being 12 Stat 319. One has to read 12 Statutes at Large
319 to see that the southern states people and all others sympathetic to
the south were declared "enemies of the State." The State of course
being the United States and not the individual States of the Union. ( One
thing people do not realize is that the word "Estate" is now termed
"State" in America. The etymology of the word "Estate," is described in
Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language. )

After Lincoln was killed and President Johnson took over, he immediately vetoed Lincoln's War Act. Some northern state Senators were in sympathy to the south's plight. ( One has to remember that the senators were not a part of the Congress as they are today since the passage of the 17th Amendment. The Senators protected the State's interests at that period in time while the Congress, which today is known as the House of Representatives, protected the people's interests ) . The Northern States in Congress vetoed President Johnson's veto of Lincoln's War Act, thereby reaffirming that all Americans are enemies of the State. These acts can be found today in Title 50 sections 212, 213 and 215 and among other U.S. Titles, i.e 28 USC. These are today's forfeiture laws that the United States uses freely against the people who are still declared "enemies of the State." The Congress liked this control. It then went on to make the famous Reconstruction Acts of March 2, 1867, which put all the people under the military Rule of the Reconstruction Acts. Do not confuse this with martial law. It is not martial law. Under military Rule ( also called law martial rule from the Supreme Court's usage in ex parte Milligan ) , civil authorities administer the military rule. Under Martial law the military rules and moves aside the civil authorities. Americans today are still under this military or law martial or war powers rule. The Reconstruction Acts of 1867 put into effect the War Power. The civil Rights Act of 1866 was resurrected as the 14th Amendment, the ratification of which was accomplished by denying a New Jersey senator and souther senators their seats, by military occupation of the eleven southern states, and by ignoring the rescission of ratification votes of certain northern states. Congress had now gained control of the enemy thru the 14th Amendment's control over the states. The control would be complete over every southern state but included the northern states as well. The Constitution cannot have a law applied only to certain states so it had to apply to all. Now you know why we are, still to this day, the enemy of the State. Do not think for one moment that you are not the "enemy" of the State.

Right before the Civil war the United States and the States were getting ripped off in what was called the "wildcat banking" swindles of the 1830 era. To protect their assets the United States and the States created an Independent Treasury in 1841. This Independent Treasury was short lived because the Whig party took control from 1842 to 1845 and abolished it. After the Whigs lost the elections in 1846, the Independent Treasury was reestablished in 1846. It dealt in Specie, as demanded by the Constitution of the United States. The private banking cartel of the Bank of England did not like this one bit. French bankers always had control of most of the southern states. The south was known for having about 75 percent of the net worth of the country. This is why the war was fought so the Bank of England
could obtain a bigger bite out of the commerce that was taking place in
the south. Albert Nock, in his book, "Our Enemy the State" did not bring this forth. After the Reconstruction Acts, the "other" banking cartel, the Rothschilds, started to gain a foothold into the banking system. Before that everything was controlled strictly by the Bank of England and France. You have to remember, the French banks were partially owned by the King of England. The King did not have enough power to control French banks as he did his own in this country. From the 1867 era until circa 1890 there was
much strife with the gold and silver devaluation and the stock market
crash. This caused much concern within the banking system. After a long
battle between the English banking system and the Independent Treasury;
the Girards, Vanderbilts, Goulds, Blairs, Garretts, Rockefellers,
Morgans, Astors, Mellons and the like, who were in league with the
"other" banking cartel, had a hand in creating the Federal Reserve
banking system through their control of government. However the
Independent Treasury posed a problem to this cartel, in that the
Independent Treasury dealt in specie and U.S. Notes. People's money,
while in the Independent Treasury, was protected, as well as was the money of the States and of the United States because its reserves were adequate to cover all the people's money. With much wheeling and dealing in
private, with those mentioned in the above paragraph, the Independent
Treasury was abolished by the Act of 1920 in the year 1921. At this
point those in the Independent Treasury would have lost their jobs if
Congress had not created the GAO, which is where most of the treasury
people went. The GAO is still the auditor for the United States. The
Attorney General and the Treasurer of the United States must report to
the GAO all monies collected and disbursed. The Attorney General does
this in his or her capacity as Alien Property Custodian. We are
considered aliens to the States and United States, therefore our
property may be seized under forfeiture laws of the Alien Enemy
Act. ( A "resident" ( cf. the word "reside" in the 14th Amendment ) is an alien allowed to domicile for commerce in the Law of Nations. ) "Office Found" and "Estate/State" As stated by the supreme court of Georgia 14 Ga 438, the people, which is you and I, are not parties to the Constitution, only the States are.

Do not for one minute think you are the State. The State consisted of the Proprietors, wealthy land owners, Dukes, Earls, Royal Governors and those holding property under grants by the King of his estate and their heirs, forever. Those heirs were to hold the "office found" and are in complete control of the "Estate." Now all you have to do is convert the word Estate to its legal meaning in America and you have "State" of the compact, which you call Union. The Federal Reserve System then became the Agents of the United States and the States. All the Independent Treasury's real money and U.S. Notes were to be kept separate from Federal Reserve Notes as stated in the abolition law; See Title 5 USC 5512, Historical and Revision notes. "In
subsection ( b ) , reference to the `General Accounting Office' is
substituted for `accounting officers of the Treasury' on authority of the
Act of June 10, 1921, ch 18, title III, 42 Stat. 23. Reference to the
`Attorney General' is substituted for `Solicitor of the Treasury' and
`Solicitor' on authority of section 16 of the Act of March 3, 1933, ch
212, 47 Stat. 1517; section 5 of E.O. 6166, June 10, 1933; and section 1
of 1950 Reorg. Plan No. 2, 64 Stat. 1261."

From 1922 to 1929 the private federal reserve agents of the United States used the gold and silver, the "reserves," in overseas dealing in property and business. They used this for foreign business ventures that fell through as bad deals. If the people had got wind that the Gold and Silver were depleted and if the Federal Reserve Notes were cashed in, there would not be enough
reserves left. That would be a national emergency. A crash of the
stock marked was created to distract the people away from this fact in 1929.

The Third major use of Emergency and War Power: The Private Federal Reserve wrote a letter to President Hoover in 1933. This letter, written by the lawyers using the War Powers Act of 1917, was the basis for the President to declare a national emergency to cover the Feds stealing of the people's money. Hoover said no. The proposed Act, which subsequently became 48 Stat 1, would convert sec. 5 ( b ) of the 1917 War Powers Act to eliminate the American from the protected class of people and included them as the enemy. Hoover left office on March 4, 1933. The "Hoover Papers" describe what went on from March 1 to March 5 of 1933. Roosevelt immediately took office on March 5th and did what the Federal Reserve wanted, word for word. On March 9, 1933, he called Congress into special session and told them under Executive Order 2039 that they will pass this 48 Stat 1. This act forbade any American from holding any gold or suffer 10,000 dollars fine and jail time. All of this happened because the people wanted their real money ( Specie ) from the bank, who was supposed to be protecting it. The banks could not return to the people their own real money. They ( the bank ) , had in
essence, stolen it. Rockefeller was the owner of the Bank of Chicago. This bank was the second largest in the country. If a run on this bank was begun by the people, it would cause the bank to collapse. Rockefeller would probably be hung by the people or at least be brought up on embezzlement charges as would all the other banks in the Federal Reserve system. Rockefeller and Roosevelt were law buddies and Roosevelt had to protect his friend. This was the third use of the Emergency act. It was used to protect the banks. The first time it was used to create the banks. Now, per 48 Stat 1, we have the people as the "enemy". That is why the banks had to be closed for six days to allow the President to issue to all the banks a license. This license allowed the banks to deal with the "enemy." That "enemy," dear reader, was and is, us..!!! How do you control the enemy? What was the real reason for the SS number? Is that not a license for the enemy, us, so we can
trade with the banks and also others that are not the enemy such as your
fellow American? When reading the entire 48 Stat 1 and attendant
Agriculture Acts and all the alphabet agencies laws created by Roosevelt,
we are their enemy and are in need of a license. All one has to do to
verify this is to pull all the statutes, session laws of Congress, Congressional Reports that I have mentioned, and 12 USC 95 ( a ) & ( b ) to see what I mean. You must also pull the two U.S. Supreme Court cases in 1935, cited as 363 U.S. 603 and 301 U.S. 548; the book titled, Social Security: The Fraud in Your Future, by Warren Shore; and finally, Hearings Before a Subcommittee of the COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS House of Representatives, Eighty-Third Congress, First Session, Part 6, Analysis of the Social Security System, November 27, 1953, Pages 879 to 1521. In the above cited material it
says that; Social Security is not a special Trust Fund. It is not
Insurance. It is a gift from government, and not considered income. It
is not a contract. It is a flat income tax on employees. The employer
matches no funds because the tax on the employer is a separate tax for
the privilege of hiring workers. That not one dime goes to a special
trust because there is no such trust. All SS taxes go into the general
treasury. Congress can shut down SS anytime it wants as there is no
obligation on the Governments part to pay as it is merely statutory
benefits. Payments are at the discretion of Congress. Payments are to
promote the general welfare of the United States only. There is no vested
or inherent right to receive SS payments. All these are true
statements. The statement quoted below is from the conclusion of
the above mentioned Report and can be found on page 1485 et seq. It will
lead you to believe the SS number is nothing but a number to track the
"enemy" since the number does nothing for you. "As already
indicated, I am one who feels deeply that the level of social insurance
benefits must be kept within proper bounds lest the system get out of
hand and become a means of perpetrating a political party in power. Once
entrenched, the Executive would use social insurance to enslave people.
Hitler's control of the German social-insurance system enabled him to
force individuals to conform to his program. Those who deviated stood to
lose their benefits. In social-insurance we are therefore dealing with
something that could become an instrument of dictatorship." Truer
words were never spoken since no one can do anything without the number.
Hitler's principles rule again and you truly are an enemy slave under the
executive military rule. The government has told you in its own words
that the Social Security number is nothing more than an "enemies" license
number issued for the purpose of trading with the enemy.

SYNOPSIS The Bank of England caused Washington to create the First bank of the United States in 1791 for the purpose of controlling the money. It then ran into a problem in 1846 when the Independent Treasury was created by the U.S. and the States to protect their own money. President Lincoln then made us the enemy of the Government ( State ) by 12 Stat 319 in 1862 and Congress continued to keep the status quo by the creation of the Reconstruction Acts in 1867. Then in 1868 the 14th Amendment placed the people of both the north and south under the control of the military rule. The "other" banking system, after gaining a foothold in 1913 by the creation of the Federal Reserve System, caused the demise of the Independent Treasury. To complete the enemy status, Roosevelt finalized us as enemies in 48 Stat 1,
March 9, 1933. It is the Congress that has enslaved the people of
this country in order to placate the international bankers of the Federal
Reserve System. The people were never in control of anything since day one
( 1787 ) and before. It is all smoke and mirrors for the purpose of
deceiving you and plundering. The total object from the 1791 Act by
Washington, to the 1933 Act by Roosevelt was to totally control the money
and the labor of the people. This encroachment on the people's liberty
took place over an extended period of time so as to not make obvious that
which would be otherwise intolerable. Before the SS number existed, your lineage were considered the enemy under the 1867 Reconstruction Acts and you, being their heirs, are still the enemy today.

REMEDY ? To the informed reader this paper gives the "why and how," to the novice it gives "food for thought." To both I ask the question, "What is the remedy or recourse?" Do you throw up your hands, totally give up and
continue submitting to the enemy, "the State," by licensure, remain in
banking and all the attendent snares that entrap you, or do you finally
"draw your line in the sand?" Control of Money was the first step in
your enslavement as shown above, which has been nearly accomplished.
Now, fingerprinting, compelled use of the enemy's SS ( Social Slave )
number in everything you do, retina eye scans, plastic credit cards, and
body micro chips and national I.D. similar to old Germany and Russian
control of their people are on the horizon as the final step. Each
reader has a talent, whether a leader or follower, and both must
understand the task at hand. Individually we must make a difference and
work with others of the same mindset, because if we don't
......... The Informer

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:31 - ID#318183)
12/31/99 23.59:59 New Zealand Time
I'll be in an Amsterdam coffee bar or Hotel ( 1PM local time ) on the internet here at KITCO watching the world react around the world to 1/1/00 0.00:01.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:43 - ID#318183)
rangold is up 8.11% - God bless bollinger bands

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:50 - ID#33184)
Facing down the monster

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:50 - ID#185448)
re: KEWL
Sorry, wont be able to participate 01.01.00-00:00:01. Us always waiting impatiently for 23:59:59, then fumbling on our brought along champagne-bottles to open them with a loud "plopp" ( as its champagne, its rather a noble "bleau-b" ) at exactly 00:00:00 ( whatever year it may be ) , then we fill glasses in a hurry, let air stream into the glasses, throw away glasses, grab women/wives/children/dogs/brooms ( or whatever is at hand ) an waltz withdem until sunrise or ad absolute nauseam ( whatever may come first ) . So I wont be able to say definitely that the world had stopped turning until 1 pm local time, when we activate TV-sets to watch the Vienna Philharmonics to perform Strauss, Zierer and whatever they may practise. Same procedure every year.
BTW - as this concert is broadcasted worldwide every Jan 1st, you have the opportunity to take a look of the organ which is depicted on the back-side of a Vienna Philharmonic ( I mean the coin! )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 05:59 - ID#284255)
Pass a drop up here we're dry
Sounds like East & West of the Tasman have been drinking too much hard water.

From the other side of the world:
Victor porlier has written a pretty good piece on the economic and social
context of Y2K. Good read.

It is the thing that most people forget. Y2k is only one facet of the coming
collapse. Perhaps, the match that lights the fuse. The real problem is the
grotesque mountain of debt that the world's economic systems are laboring
under, the ridiculous banking practices which are not banking practices at
all, in reality, and the abandonment of 'real' money in favor of 'fiat'
paper. Y2K is just going to push it over the edge, inevitably.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:07 - ID#284255)
Your post on Dubbo makes me laugh.
Thinking of the idea is only part of the equation.

Sort of like thinking of buying gold....

Cairns recently installed generators for the water/sewerage supply.
More cyclone oriented than anything else.
When I spoke to the guy in charge he told me that they had a 12 hour fuel tank. duh?
And they could only run one system at a time. double duh?

Lucky we've got that magnificent Great Barrier Reef next door to flush into. Only 140,000 population. And we'll be in the middle of the wet season.

Lucky that Sydney has fast currents offshore.

Seems like it's dumb to think of buying gold.
And just as dumb to only buy 1/2 an oz.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:09 - ID#153102)
@I wonder if the same theft recounted in my 5:51 did not occur in all those English speaking
countries that once had circulating gold coin and now have Central Banks.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:11 - ID#290172)
Tolerant1 ~ Auric: Sorry this took so mouse went bonkers...
Sometimes I hate computers...

There are four ( 4 ) currencies worth more in SDR terms than the Mighty USD. Can you name them? ( NO peeking )

A. 1 SDR = 1.00
1. 1.1897 [GBP]
2. 1.4307 [Cyprus pount]
3. 1.0565 [Irish punt]
3. 1.0118 [Jordanian dinar]

Frankly, I was surprised. Tolerant1's 'shots' were closer to what I would have guessed. The Jordanian dinar!?

XDR:XAU = 209.50
BIS:XAU = 208 mmmmmmm

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:12 - ID#290172)
Oh blast!
Cyrus pounD...fixed the mouse--the fingers are HOPELESS

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:21 - ID#329186)
SDRer (ID#290172 06:11
Hi if you include the jordanian Dinar don't forget the Kuwaitti Dinar last looked almost 2 to the  ( pound sterling )


(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:21 - ID#318183)
y2k = bonanza for those who bill you
how many times have you heard - the problem in your bill was a computer error? and how many people go through the trouble of going over their monthly bills anyway? if only 1% of the people complain - it will be worth billions - what percent complain anyway? 8-9%

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:22 - ID#329186)
SDRer ( re last post
should have read the other way round almost 2. to the kuwaitti Dinar


(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:25 - ID#284255)
More drinking - celebrating the rise in the POG no doubt!!!
The UK government has just announced that they will be relaxing the
drinking laws over the millennium so that people can drink all
through the day and all through the night! Do you think this is a
surreptitious way of telling us something? Perhaps a totally sozzled
population on 1.1.2000 wont notice if anything goes wrong!

Also announced was that all nursing leave was cancelled over the period
because of anticipated problems with equipment. Perhaps there
will be so many nurses on duty that there wont be any room for

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:29 - ID#25174)
mozel, doombugs ,
have you ever read the story of the doomsday machine which when turned on was supposed to destroy the universe. Well, every time it was turned on it failed. Only thing is it actually worked, but the scientists found themselves in a new universe where it had failed, being of course the only universe they could exist in. Couple this with collapse of the quantum wavefunction by thought and in an admittedly long winded way, I am trying to say "as you think - so shall you live". Be happy - the uninformed will inherit the earth - they just wont realise it.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:29 - ID#29048)
Have you read Mr. Kebbles answers to some of your excellent questions?

You can email PolarBear with more questions in time to catch Kebbles at the next meeting.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:48 - ID#43349)
Peruvian gold

(Wed Nov 11 1998 06:57 - ID#284255)
Cage Rattler - both these articles go hand in hand

The rules - that money must be priced realistically - haven't changed. But reality is changing as deflationary forces work their way through the global economy. And somewhere down the line there may be a huge bank debt default.

"Now major industrial countries are more directly involved in the financial crisis, there is a greater urgency for finding a solution."

The Great Wave: Price-Revolutions and the Rhythm of History: A Review
Our actions - as business owners, investors, politicians, civil servants, or leaders of voluntary and non-profit organizations - rest on assumptions about the future. Those assumptions are mostly formed on the basis of personal experience, and less on the study of history and its patterns. Yet the study of history can be instructive, unless you believe as Henry Ford did that "history is bunk."

The probability of simultaneous technological seizures around the globe in fourteen months due to Y2K problems is historically unprecedented. The economic context in which Y2K will interact is not.

In 1996, David Hackett Fischer, a professor at Brandeis and an historian of international repute wrote, The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History ( Oxford University Press ) . Using records of prices and other quantifiable data, Fisher asserts that there have been four great price waves in history. If he is correct, we are now at the end of what he calls "The Great Wave of the Twentieth Century," which began in 1897.

The first three price-revolutions, as he calls them, occurred in the thirteenth, sixteenth, and eighteenth centuries and shared similar features: falling real wages, rising returns to capital, and growing gaps between the rich and the poor. Each wave started silently, developed increasing instability, and ended in a shattering crisis that combined social disorder, political upheaval, economic collapse, and demographic contraction.

Understanding Fischer's wave theory is very helpful for understanding Y2K, not as a technological anomaly, but as a major component of a widening global socio-economic crisis. It is important to distinguish that Fisher does not believe this to be a cyclical pattern. While they differ on "duration, velocity, magnitude, and momentum," all price-revolutions have a "common wave-structure, and started in much the same way."

Each wave is comprised of five stages. The first stage is one of silent beginnings and slow advances. Prices rise slowly in a period of prolonged prosperity. The second stage begins when prices break through the boundaries of the previous equilibrium. The third stage sees inflation as an inexorable condition. The fourth stage sees prices go ever higher and prices begin to surge and decline with increasing volubility.

In America, the period from 1897 to 1907 was one of sustained prosperity with only a few short downturns. A panic in 1907 caused unemployment to surge from two to eight percent but by 1909, the economy was moving again. "Like every great wave that preceded it, this great movement began primarily because the acceleration of demand outstripped the increase in supply." World War I shattered economic stability and the ensuing initial depression didn't abate until 1924.

In the US, purchases of houses, cars, and consumer durables began to decline in the late 1920s. Commodity prices and industrial production began to fall. Agricultural, industrial, and financial firms began to default on their loans in Latin America, the US, and elsewhere. Then came the Crash of '29 and the world was in the throes of the Great Depression which ended with World War II.

Following the war, there was a short recession from 1947 to 1949, but by 1950 prices were rising again. In fact, from 1938 to 1963 consumer prices in the US rose every year but two. The rate of inflation trebled from 1961 to 1966. After the long boom of the 1960s, we hit the recession of 1968 to 1971. National product fell as did the dollar against other currencies. Unemployment rose. Then, after a shallow recovery, the oil crisis hit, and from 1973 to 1980 prices surged and "double digit inflation" was common parlance.

The oil and agricultural scarcities turned to gluts and market instability intensified. Fischer writes, "The effect of increasing wealth concentration was to increase the supply of surplus capital, which shifted rapidly from one investment opportunity to another throughout the world in search of profit. The increasing liquidity and volatility of markets created opportunities that were aggressively pursued. Some of the speculations succeeded; others failed; all of them contributed to the growing instability of the world economy."

Programmed trading and global asset trades and speculation increased the volatility of securities markets. Stock values soared and then came the initial day of reckoning and harbinger of things to come... October 19, 1987. The Dow plunged 500 points and billions of dollars evaporated. However, if you had been on a fall vacation you could have missed the whole experience by the time you got back. It took some time for enough confidence to return to generate the next speculation run up.

Again, there was a brief recession in 1990-91. Then the industrial economies started to recover, in 1992 in the US and in 1993 in Western Europe; but such recovery was characteristic of the late stages of every other price-revolution.

A general collapse had been prevented, but a highly overextended world banking system, and the central banks at its core, had become hostage to economic fortune. The worsening problems of overextended savings and loans, expanding trade imbalances, plant closings, downsizing, foreign out-sourcing, and outright fraud contributed to the growing crisis.

Fisher believes we are now living in the fourth stage of a wave about which he writes, "Inequalities of wealth and income increased. So also did hunger, homelessness, crime, violence, drink, drugs, and family disruption." As for cultural manifestations of the fourth stage, he notes, "In literature and the arts, the penultimate stage of every price-revolution was an era of dark visions and restless dreams." He characterizes the period as a time of lost faith in institutions, desperate searching for spiritual values with sects and cults, often angry and irrational, multiplying rapidly. "Intellectuals turned furiously against their environing societies. Young people, uncertain of both the future and the past, gave way to alienation and cultural anomie."

The fifth and final stage comes as the great wave crests and breaks resulting in a cultural crisis that characteristically includes economic collapse, political revolution, international war, social violence, and population depletion. If Professor Fischer's historical analysis is sound, this is the context in which Y2K will occur. Then after a time of troubles, a new period of equilibrium will take hold.

Governments planning new bond issues or investing funds, businesses planning expansion, and consumers planning to expand their debt load rather than reducing it, would do well to ponder the state of the world economy and its historic parallels before acting. Faulty economic judgments and forecasts made now will most likely be compounded by Y2K impacts.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:00 - ID#318183)
It is an interesting site and polarbear is doing a great service - but the way things are done by kibble is sort of dictatorial - I wonder how much stock he actually owns?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:01 - ID#290172)
CPO@AU --Kuwaitti Dinar
In SDR? That is very interesting. They do not INCLUDE the Kuwaitti Dinar
on the list! One ( being paranoid ) wonders why? Revealing to look at this list and note the currencies which are, in numerical count ( refuse to use word value ) the USD's 'peers'. Thanks for the input.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:13 - ID#183109)
RANDGOLD comments.
LAKEFOIL, I try to just ignore posts I dont agree with but your post of 03:35 is SO FAR out in left field that I cannot ignore this one. I take it that you are a rangy shareholder. And Id venture to guess that you, like I, are a bit frustrated at the mess caused by the recent split. I wont attempt to defend Randgold Mgt for doing a poor job at getting the word out on this, but in all fairness it now sounds like the ADR custodian Bank of N.Y bears much of the blame, and the DOW JONES NEWS service incorrectly reporting this 7 for 10 b.s. certainly didnt help matters.

LAKEFOIL, you state:

1. When non- US listed assets are distributed to US ADR holders they are liquidated at about 1/2 the value. Benefiting those involved in the closed auction.

This may be so in some situations, but this is totally irrelevant to RANDGOLD.

Theres so much BULLSH*T being posted here lately regarding RANGY delisting, I feel compelled to give my two cents.

Regarding this broken record of delisting the ADRs--a quote direct from the CEO of RANDGOLD. This is not 3rd hand gossip. Roger Kebble sent this directly to me on 5 November 1998.

THE FUTURE OF RANDGOLD: As the US $ 48 million bond is only
due in 2001 it is unlikely that any unbundling of Randgold would take
place before then, if at all. Randgold will either stay as it is at
present or, if all stakeholders are willing and agree, Randgold may
merge with another company. Mid to late 1999 is the likely timing of
presentation of proposals to stakeholders.

The whole point to this 1 for 3 reverse split was to KEEP rangy on the nasdaq!!!

I hate to shout, but apparently some kitcovites continue to miss this.




What do you propose they will be selling at this  sale I keep hearing about?

Investors so worked up about this NON-EVENT should follow DISNEYS sound advice and buy your randgold on the JSE. But I dont really see the point in this. If for some reason you dont trust Roger Kebble, why would you buy the stock in the first place?

LAKEFOIL, your second point:

2. If the ADR's are tied to the value of the SA underlying stock - what difference would it make if the ADR's get delisted for not maintaining a $1.00 minimum value. Keeping the stock listed on NASDAQ benefits the market makers only ( not all spreads on the bulletin boards are horrible ) 

This is absurd. Keeping the stock listed on the NASDAQ benefits the market makers only ????????
Then why do we all buy the stock on the NASDAQ? Do you really think the average U.S. investor will go to S.A. just to buy shares? NO WAY. Have you ever even tried to get a mid-day quote on JSE stocks?

3. Hyping the ADR's through a dog and pony show - getting interest up and people purchasing the ADR's has NO EFFECT on the real stock price in SA.

Ive never actually been to a dog and pony showwhat exactly are they like? Have you ever met with Mr. Kebble, let alone atteneded one of his famous dog and pony shows. Hundreds of people complain about the non-availability of information on RANDGOLD, so when Mr. Kebble and his staff come to the States to meet with large shareholders, fund managers, investment newsletter writers etc. to spread the word about all the great qualities of our company, it is a DOG AND PONY SHOW ? Give me a break

getting interest up and people purchasing the ADR's has NO EFFECT on the real stock price in SA.

This is another RIDICULOUS statement. There are hundreds of people who do nothing all day long but look for arbitrage opportunities such as this. If U.S. based buying raised the price of the ADRs, the JSE shares would CERTAINLY follow. Once the ADR price rises enough to justify the hassle and currency risk of buying foreign stock, then the buying pressure will flow to the cheaper shares, in this case RNG on the JSE. THEY ARE INEXTRICABLY CONNECTED.

This is why I cant get very worked up with this temporary blip on rangys chart. NO bad news is out on rangy. In fact the latest news has been nothing short of superb. SYAMA II right on track. MORILA revealing a stunning deposit, TONGON showing 1600 meters!! of mineralisation..I could go on and on.

LAKEFOIL, please no hard feelings. I realize my tone has been harshsorry. I know youre just blowing off steam as am I. Just chill out and check back in a week. This will all have blown over by then. Im anticipating some serious buying pressure coming our way after people hear what the dog and pony show has to say : ) A rough guess of the true NAV now is between $3 and $4 a share. This sub $2 level will NOT last long, assuming the POG doesnt collapse.



(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:25 - ID#258427)
Polarbear...have I told you lately....
what a GREAT service you are providing four us RANGY/RANYD/RANGY tanks!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:27 - ID#29048)
Have you ever known a CEO who wasn't at least a bit dictatorial? : ) I'm optimistic about RANYD/RANGY. Hope all your stocks go up......

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:28 - ID#183109)
more bullish RANDGOLD news for those bruised souls...
just found this...

10/11/1998 South Africans can only invest IN
majority 57,5% stake in the company,
whose developments in the September
quarter included the first profit
from the Syama mine, which will not
only reduce cash costs but also see
operating profits for the mine touch
some $25m. Separate finance will be
arranged for MORILA after March 1999,
and production could begin in early
2001. Projects in Mali and Tanzania
will require further work, but with
total attributable reserves of almost
7m ounces of gold and with potential
production planned to top 200 000oz
( 6,2t ) a year by 2002, RAND GOLD
RESOURCES is about to take off!

Chicken man
(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:35 - ID#341297)
sharefin @ Can Chicken man ask you a favor?
I didn't bookmark your website with all the links that one could possibly need...going to visit my mother and dad in the midwest...hope to be able to borrow some friend's computer....would like the URL...from there one can keep up with the "news"

Many ,many thx in advance...Chicken man..

Envy...that 3:59 post was appreciated greatly! your "spirit"

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:40 - ID#35571)
a central bank might raise gold reserves

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:40 - ID#318183)
emotional response coming
The only reason people buy on the nasdaq is cause the stock they want isn't available on another accessible exchange - who here would pay the spread if they could get the stock on the NYSE???

If the arbitrage situation was as you say it would disappear in 10 minutes - ( the price difference ) - I've followed SA stocks for a number of years and not ONCE has the SA price followed the US price - give me a date when it has - and most of the time the US price doesn't even react to the SA price ( example when RNG dropped 16% last week and then up 12% the next day )

what is the purpose of trying to interest US people to buy rangy and then dump them 29% in value in one day with a confused and non announced reverse split ( all be it only on the ADR's ) try doing that in the US without a shareholders vote!

He should be trying to convice the SA shareholders about randgolds value - - what 90% of the shares trade there.

I take no offense with you - I find your information very helpful - but I think there is a problem here - probably with the ADR Sponsor - and the way kibble runs his fiefdom -

I am still perturbed over losing a lot of money that the Bank of NY gave away 1/2 of from a Drooy option distribution that was "auctioned" off and I don't want to be involved in that again.

I have made money trading drooy and rangy and I don't want to give it back because of this kind of nonsense.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:45 - ID#35571)
Japanese banks

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:48 - ID#35571)
Friday the thirteenth
COMEX expiry is Friday. I expect gold prices will be pushed up toward $300 inasmuch as most of the open interest is around that price.

Silver continues to look very weak against the golden backdrop.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:50 - ID#183109)
"Are insiders buying RANGY? If so, how much has been bought, when, at what price? If not, why not?"
At R4/share, Roger Kebble is buying whatever he can. Brett and Roger Kebble together own 18% of CAM ( Consolidated African Mining ) which has a 30% stake in Rangy. Hence the Kebble interest is at least 5.4% of Rangy indirectly. The remaining ownership of CAM is in "friendly hands."

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:51 - ID#284255)
Moon Phases +++ much more

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:56 - ID#284255)
Chicken man

A good starting point is the gold page.
Now up to seven pages and soon to add more.
It's keep you busy while away, and informed.

What else does one need to travel with.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:57 - ID#35571)
NY Fed chief does NOT sound inclined toward further rate cuts at this time

(Wed Nov 11 1998 07:59 - ID#183109)
Requesting RANGY Questions for our meeting with Mr. Kebble this Friday...
You certainly have some valid points. We could certainly use your inputs for this weeks meeting with Roger. Id appreciate you sending me an email list of questions youd like to have Kebble answer this Friday. In addition, please send me the details on this Duban options deal, and Ill make sure he is reminded of the pain inflicted. Thanks, calling it a night from Japan.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:00 - ID#30126)
Homestake in the news...
The good Barron wants to own a quarter of the company...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:01 - ID#318183)
good discussion
I'm enjoying the discussion - my favorite movie is on - "all quiet on the western front" the old one in B&W - i've put in an order to buy more ranyd at 1 13/16 and I've got food - to bad DISNEY ain't yelling obscenities at me for my prior posts??

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:02 - ID#35571)
Sharp drop in US inflation guage:

But rise in UK inflation guage:

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:02 - ID#30126)
The news URL on Homestake

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:05 - ID#411259)
..... As Grace Slick said..... Good Morning People .....

Envy @ 3:59
Extreamly well said. Let me add my thanks to yours.

Mozel -
Your research takes your throughout the world of ideas and freedom. This is a world of such, which does not end at our borders. As Salty reminded me earlier this week, we Merkans tend to view the world is as we see it through our own very personal nationalistic lens. The "you'd be speaking Japanese" line of thought is a dead end. These are brothers of different borders who have their own honored dead to remember in their own way. Not ours.

Salty -
I'll drop by after or before youse guys slug it out. Would slug it out with you, but I am a chicken and I don't want to spill my beer.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:09 - ID#35571)
Euphoric slowing

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:14 - ID#35571)
Bond market crash and the Fed dilemna

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:14 - ID#318183)
durban option "b" ditribution
polarbear - ( sorry if i don't use caps - as a programmer i've phased them out ) i find your comments and those of everyone else here very interesting and sometimes very exciting - ( i've quit going to sex chat sites cause of it - just joking - i still go - lol )
the drooy distribution was last january and the bank of NY auctioned them off and distributed the remaining cash - it was 1/2 the amount that the options were worth at the time - with the subsequent price rise of drooy - they were worth a lot - i tried to explore the situation and meet a real stonewall - someone has something to hide with the way the process went and the relationship with the ADR sponsor and the people involved in the "auction" and those that benefited from it. SOMEONE HAS MY MONEY AND I"M NOT HAPPY

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:15 - ID#288186)
Gollum; That post regarding ECRI doesn't look right. Did they put the wrong
numbers in that article? The heading says "Sharp drop in U.S. future
inflation gauge" but the article states that the ECRI "ROSE" to
109.0 in Sept. from 107.6 in August. That implies higher inflation.
Am I missing something here?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:21 - ID#339274)
morning comments
FWIW DEC bonds are a sell with 127 25/32 stop.Drop could be fast
to 122 and 120 big support.
NEM is a buy with 21 7/8 stop,XAU a buy with 77.6 stop.Important crossroad.If Nem takes out the 21 7/8 down side support is at 20 3/4 7/8,
after that 18 .Upside resistance at 23 3/4,after that hurdle 30.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:21 - ID#45173)
The Fed will not raise rates next week, but may later in the month or early Dec. if the resulting stock market drop is significant and liquidity moves in the wrong direction. Contrary to popular belief, I think AG wants to see the markets back to or below where they were this summer. Irrational exuberance makes him nervous, for good reason.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:25 - ID#35571)
**** The History of Money In North America ****

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:31 - ID#35571)
I agree with that assessment.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:32 - ID#35571)
It is confusing. The table shows that the October figure is sharply down from the September one. If one revises the September figure upward the drop would be even more accentuated.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:40 - ID#288186)
Gollum; I see....I didn't even study the chart. I just looked at the beginning
of the article that showed the Aug and Sept comparison. ok.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:40 - ID#339274)
FWIW Plat gives thumbs up for a big rally in the goldstocks today.
fasten your seatbelts.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:40 - ID#350194)
Remembrance Day and Sentimental War-mongering Accessories (Mozel?)
Please Excuse me ALL for seemingly doing exactly the opposite of what I suggested
yesterday, but really this is not meant to kick-off any war related debate.
My true thoughts are that today should be a time of respect for all souls that laid down
their lives under any circumstances under any flag during any and all previous military
Now. I just had to ask mozel how he logically defends the harmony between these two
posts he made this AM, or are you just admitting that you are, after all, just another
sentimental accessory?
Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 02:58
mozel ( @James ) ID#153110:
"...War mongering sentimentalists are accessories after the fact."
Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 03:31
mozel ( @South Sea Sentimentalists @Nick ) ID#153110:
"All this Armistice Day breast beating from downunder, where you might well be
speaking Japanese as laborers on the Burma Railway were it not for American
blood and treasure,..."

AAR - I second all the sentiments expressed in Envy's post, except I would like it to
apply to all Veteran's from all nations on this Remembrance Day.
Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 03:59
Envy ( Veteran's Day ) ID#219363:
Copyright  1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:58 - ID#286224)

(Wed Nov 11 1998 08:59 - ID#119358)
Clitton's mouth is a urinal hooked up to an overloaded sewage treatment plant that was once a second-rate mind. And I need to pee real bad. Clitton IS pollution personified. G&P to YA!!!

My apologies for my outburst re: Kebble's mismanagement of the delisting problem ( hey! make some money and the problem will naturally go away )'s his little company and he can run it as he sees fit.

off to pump oil so the world can buy more stocks....geeze.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:03 - ID#347457)
@lakefoil on y2k = bonanza for those who bill you
lakefoil, I don't know why are you making assumption that Y2K errors will always be in favor of billing party. I saw it going both ways, sometimes even never issued. Most importantly, if the billing stumbled on a typical Y2K error ( confusing 19xx with 20xx ) you sure would notice the error when writing your check. Due to accrued interest and late charges $100 due amount would be turned into multimillion - hard to "overlook". Maybe you should leave some money in your saving account and hope that the mistake will go into your favor ;- )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:12 - ID#300202)
CTV Network-Y2K coverage
Will spare all the news details announcer Valerie Pringle stated that normally I'm a calm person but now I'm gettin' scared ( with no tongue in cheek )

Off for my generator.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:13 - ID#288186)
Jan. Platinum has started out higher this morning. It's currently 340.50
Dec. Gold is @ 294.50 // Dec Silver is @ 4.995

Mike Stewart
(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:14 - ID#270253)
I think that John Disney has your money. He knows how this works and is smart enough to take advantage of it. It is not his fault that the money was just sitting there to be picked up.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:22 - ID#31868)
and good riddance...and then some...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:25 - ID#350194)
Sharefin - Thanks for the URL Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 07:51
sharefin ( Moon Phases +++ much more ) ID#284255:
I guess its links can help our predictive abilities ( or at least see where Mike S. is coming from :- ) ) Also it should help us fishermen, and I really want to catch a rainbow trout as, of course, you know what's at the end of the rainbow. Getting silly, now better go brew some Java. Restless sleep last night as Toronto was buffeted by tail-end of Carribean hurricane. Not much rain though. Lake levels and well levels still down setting us up for possible NA drought next year leading to shortages of edible golds and possible food lead inflation. Add that to any increase in Black Gold next year and Gold's on its way! And for totally different reasons than the usual ones that are discussed around here. BTW - a brief glance on one of those pages reminded me of just how lucky the major population centers of the world are ( Northern Hemisphere ) due to the fact that Earth is at perihelion in dead of winter. ( Jan. 3rd in 1999 and 2000 ) rather than the other way around. Also the tilt of the Northern Hemisphere towards the sun in winter works out for the best also, almost like mother earth actually planned both events!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:31 - ID#31868)
finally...someone is getting to the crux of the biscuit...finally...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:39 - ID#318183)
Right now all my money is in randy rangy/ranyd - left just enough in the checking account to cover this month's internet service provider bill!! - I'm hoping that kibble's ADR reverse split nonsense will go in my favor though!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:42 - ID#369352)
Gold gets slammed by Democratic Rep. Gephardt
On "Hard Ball" ( CNBC ) last night, an interview with Gephardt...they were talking about the Social Security direction...Gephardt mentioned that MAYBE congress would propose a % of contributions would be allowed to be invested by the individual in a 401K type plan....but Gephardt said that he had serious concerns with that because he didn't want people to loose all their money investing in GOLD STOCKS!!!......I wonder what he knows that we don't....and, oh, by the way....thanks Gep for the slam on gold!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:42 - ID#318183)
mike stewart
I know he has my money he admitted it back in january!! but I know where the bank of NY lives - I couldn't imagine every seeing SA soil

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:50 - ID#369352)
CNBC Slamms gold again
This morning on CNBC they were reporting on the CB story to increase gold reserves...the anouncer said that that would be bad for gold and would drive the price down in the future!....sounds like we can't win for losing with this news network....My mother always said...if you can't say something nice about gold, don't say anything at all!!!

Voyeur Professor
(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:51 - ID#231112)
Gold vs.the Euro?
This morning's "Stockwatch" comments by Thom Calandra present a most interesting, but perplexing take on the relationship between gold and the Euro. By Thom Calandra, CBS MarketWatch.

Last Update: 6:15 PM ET Nov 10, 1998

SAN FRANCISCO ( CBS.MW ) -- It's not every day a rich Germanbaron seeks to buy a vast stake in one of the oldest gold companies in the United States, all because of the euro.

Baron August Von Finck, who with his brother Wilhelm Von Finck is
worth about $4.5 billion, already owns 14.2 percent of San Francisco's
Homestake ( HM ) . Von Finck managed to get one of his representatives
on the board of Homestake, one of the oldest continually traded
companies on the New York Stock Exchang. Now, say Homestake executives and Securities & Exchange Commission filings, August wants to raise
his stake to 25 percent and land another board seat. That's a bold step, given gold's lackluster price in a world where investors and central
bankers would rather trade derivatives than bars of the metal.

Now my concern, and confusion, rests with my assumption--one based upon numerous observations by monetary analysts--that the Euro would prove bullish for gold. The argument, proffered buy David Malpess approximately a month ago in the "WAll Street Journal," saw the euro's commitment to gold reserves and the challenge represented by the Euro to the dollar as bullish for gold. Now, along comes the Baron, with a hefty commitment to Homestake, betting that the Euro's failure will result in higher gold prices. I have confessed many times that I no longer understand the gold market. The Baron has just confirmed my confusion. Any comments out there?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:51 - ID#342397)
Missouri Dick
Gephardt is Howdy Doody's illegitimate son and a perfect example of genetic regression.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:55 - ID#269409)
@ Envy.... Excellent 03:59
Your 03:59 was very well said. So many have been born into privilege, handed life on a silver platter, never faced adversity or genuine sacrifice.

Vets, particularly those who served "under fire"...deserve recognition, thanks, appreciation, and a debt of gratitude that can never fully be repaid.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:56 - ID#288186)
trader_vic; How ,in the world ,did they spin that "increasing gold reserves"
would drive POG down in the future!!??

(Wed Nov 11 1998 09:58 - ID#269409)
Doesn't appear to be a meltdown to me.....
Wednesday November 11, 9:06 am Eastern Time

US stocks seen opening higher after overseas gains

By Alden Bentley

NEW YORK, Nov 11 ( Reuters ) - Wall Street stocks are expected to shake off two days of
weakness and open modestly higher Wednesday on the back of big gains overseas and a
bullish outlook for the U.S. high-tech sector.

``As far as the rest of the market, we should get a pretty good open here,'' said Tom Brown,
managing director of Rutherford Brown and Catherwood. ``Foreign markets looked quite good, I don't see any clouds on the
horizon, and the futures are way up. I think we're going to get a pretty strong follow-through to yesterday.''

In another sign that the tech sector may be weathering the slowdown in demand from Asia, chip maker Intel Corp.
( Nasdaq:INTC - news ) on Tuesday predicted fourth-quarter revenues would be above expectations due to stronger demand for
personal computers.

Intel shares were higher at 100-1/2 in pre-open trade, compared with their close Tuesday at 97-9/16.

The news from Intel helped boost other technology companies, including Dell Computer Corp. ( Nasdaq:DELL - news ) , which
was up at 71-1/4 in pre-open trade from from its close at 70-5/16.

Stocks in Europe were cheered by surprisingly strong earnings reports and solid advances in Asia

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:01 - ID#31868)
SDR_er, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...given the relentless informational flow which
you place here at Kitco I should have taken more time to consider...I will say that given an day to respond I would not have come up with those four...I still would have put up the list I did... is interesting that the Dinar is represented...ANOTHER may end up being correct...if the oil/gold trade moves as ANOTHER suspects and throw in the cultural aspect of utilizing the Dinar the USD would be in deep trouble as it represents the false money of the Great Satan in their eyes...


(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:05 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff my friend...Clintler is a dirtbag...plain and simple...
what a disgusting abortion of the term Commander in Chief as the dirtbag plans to send our fine men and women into harms way...knowing full well he detests them...

I still have only two words for Clintler...the Deserter in Chief ...FU...nuff said...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:05 - ID#269409)
Trader-vic...Gephardt slammin Gold stocks
Re your post on Gepfart... maybe the reason he's slammin Gold stocks, is that in 1997, the biggest Gold stock funds were by far the nastiest loss sector..many losing fully 90% ore more of their value from peaks.

That's not a pretty statistic. But in keeping with "Buy low sell high" and going for the oversold, undervalued, soon to be changing cycle .... Gep isn't looking "forward" very well. As Sharefin ( I think it was he, or was it JTF? ) so eloquently put it.... "Investing for the past" is not always the best way to make gains for the future.

GOLD.... shall rise..... in 1999.... all the pieces have fallen into place.

RJ said it,
I believe it
that settles it

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:08 - ID#269409)
Howdid they come to that conclusion? Because their rationale is that there will be that much more overhang in CB vaults when they get ready to dump it !! ;- )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:09 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff...forgot to add that the FU is vocofueled with
a HEAVY Nue Yawk axscent...yup...uh huh...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:10 - ID#284255)
Why do see it better when the "Earth is at perihelion in dead of winter"?

Here's a couple more for the cyber astrologer.
Live Solar Viewer:

Earth and Moon Viewer

Satellite View - watch Galaxy 5 & others
I counted 1030 odd satellites here.

Good Morning Earthlings

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:12 - ID#284255)
Mooney* I meant
Why do you see it better that the
"Earth is at its perihelion in dead of winter"?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:14 - ID#413109)
Emails are coming back, check your ISP!! BEST!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:15 - ID#43185)
And that much more to lease?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:16 - ID#34459)
XAU stiil a Buy!
G'Day Mates. Comments on the XAU this morning..........
same as yesterday....Its gonna go up yet some more.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:18 - ID#286249)
Voyeur Professor -"Euro bullish for gold"

Perhaps we might rearrange the cart and the horse? Gold will prove bullish for the Euro? Which may well explain why central banks have "it", why Eur-lex codifies "it", why the good Baron invests in "it". "It" has been out of vogue, but "it" is as central to human activities as that other 1920s "It". {:- )

Tolerant1@Jordanian.dinar Yes, that thought danced across my mind too! {:- ) )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:21 - ID#269409)
@ Tolerant1...Clitton
You said "the dirtbag plans to send our fine men and women into harms way...knowing full well he detests them..."

How true, how true...and the feeling is mutual. They detest HIM as well. My brother has been in the Army Air corps flying missions for 10 years. Bosnia, Gulf War, Panama... Everytime I talk to him about Clitton he relates the fact that virtually everyone in the service thoroughly detests the Lying, draft dodging, adultering, Commander Who Cheats.

However, as you know their latest edict, passed down from the White House via the Pentagon, is that their not ALLOWED to detest him anymore. Uh huh.

In the case of Clitton.... our fearless, totalitarian, socialist, draft dodging "leader" standing up to Saddam, the cause is worthy, the but the leader is worthless.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:35 - ID#258427)
Rally? in progress...on the way?
Spot up $1.10...xau up we gooooo! ( maybe )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:41 - ID#350194)
Sharefin - I don't claim to be a scientist, so perhaps I'm wrong here, but wouldn't the earth being closer ro the Sun give us slightly more solar energy to fight off the effects of these nasty winter's up here? Or to put it another way, if the earth were at aphelion AND the north pole was pointed away from the sun in the winter would we not experience much more severe winters than is now the case? ( This by the way would cause less Gold to be mined in the Northern Hemisphere as many mines would have shorter operating seasons ;-o . )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:43 - ID#43185)
I kind of think this "rally" will continue right on up to around $300 for the expiry on Friday ( most of the open interest is around 300, I understand ) . Be gone by Monday.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:56 - ID#284255)
Just watching the weather in the US and it looks pretty wild in some places.
Snow, sleet, rain, wind and even a tornado thrown in.
And all at the beginning of winter.

I guess our wet season will be just as wild.
Cyclones, metres of water and lots of beer. ( one sweets a lot )

Seems like the weather patterns are becoming more volatile.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:58 - ID#34459)
Dec 98 AU & Jan 99 Plat.
Very good action this morning in these two metals, a strong run up could follow through higher.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:59 - ID#339274)
FWIW supply is drying up.XAU on the daily coiling for a massive breakout.

Voyeur Professor
(Wed Nov 11 1998 10:59 - ID#231112)

You offer a amusing reversal, and I have long agreed--as do most of us who post here--that the case for gold seems compelling. But you have sidestepped my central question which concerns the Baron's purchase at this juncture. As I see it, the Baron has placed a bet against the success of the Euro. His wager seems more related to his belief that a currency crisis will engulf Europe when the Euro fails, rather than owning gold because it is undervalued. Further, his assumption that the euro will fail might also imply that the Central Banks have turned to gold reserves, and an apparent halt to selling gold, because they are hedging against the possibility of a Euro debacle. Such a view would mean that as the hour for the Euro approaches, and the suspicion that it may fail, gold buying will be related to fears about the Euro. This position alters somewhat the notion that the modest percentage of gold reserves ( 5-10% ) to be held by the European Central Bank may be increased to a much higher percentage!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:01 - ID#350194)
Imagine-Peace On Earth-A Brotherhood of Man-No Reason to Fight or Kill For-I wonder If You Can.
In Flanders Fields
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow

Between the crosses row on row,

That mark our place; and in the sky

The Larks, still bravely singing, fly,

Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the dead. Scarce days ago

We lived , felt dawn, saw sunset glow

Loved, and were loved ,and now we lie

In Flanders fields.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:03 - ID#373403)
Gold sure looks more stable than any of the major currencies these days!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:13 - ID#284255)
The Y2k Weatherman
This is another installment of "Ask Randy." Randy Flink is a special
advisor to Y2kWatch on financial issues. Read Randy's bio here:

Dear Randy
My financial planner is promoting gold mining stocks over gold coins
or bullion metals. Why haven't you included gold stocks in your Y2k
Personal Insurance Plan?

Just Curious

Dear Curious,
Overall, I still don't like the case for mining stocks based on the

( 1 ) they are thinly-traded and illiquid during a times of market turmoil;
( 2 ) mining companies have high fixed costs and zero pricing power;
( 3 ) mining stocks seldom trade on fundamentals;
( 4 ) mining companies are their own worst enemies since the majority of
them are selling their production forward and contributing to weak
metals prices.

In my opinion, mining shares often demonstrate the same behavior as
rare coins. You see rapid run-ups during times of increasing bullion
prices as hot money enters these relatively thinly-traded markets. As
a result, either one can be used to leverage bullion holdings.
Personally, I would rather hold rare coins due to their tangible
properties, their relatively fixed supply and their indifference to
political risk and geological interpretations.

// Y2k Weatherman Comments //
One other quick point to consider. Is your "financial planner" a
stock broker who doesn't get a commission on gold coin sales, but does
pick up a commission on a gold stock transaction? Hmmm.

Another quick point about rare coins too--caveat emptor! ( Buyer
beware. ) Neophytes in the coin market can be taken advantage of quite
easily. I spent several days reading up on rare coins and decided
that unless I planned to make coin collecting a serious hobby, I had
far too little money to be a serious collector of precious metal ( gold
and silver ) coins. My personal decision was to steer clear of rare
coins. Semi-numismatics can be rip-off too if you're not careful.

Unless I had a coin expert ( who isn't the seller ) advising me on
purchases, I'd be extremely cautious about parting with my money for a
rare coin or semi-numismatic investment. A few days of voracious
reading on the topic of rare coins was enough to convince me that this
market is not for beginners unless you have loads of money and/or
time, two commodities in short supply at my house.

My personal metals broker is Ron Brown of North American Investment
services. Ron is primarily a bullion dealer. ( I have bought a few
semi-numismatic pieces from him though. ) Here is Ron's background:
Check out Ron's prices then shop around. I rarely find a better deal
than what Ron can offer, plus I trust him. That is worth a lot to me.
I don't buy metals from anyone else.

The Y2k Weatherman

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:13 - ID#34459)
XAU @ 80.00
Should XAU run up to todays high again at 80.00 it could take it out and not look back again.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:14 - ID#413109)
Messrs Voyeur Professor

The amount of effort, and political positioning vis-a-vis the
EURO, would lead me to believe, that the politicians won't let
this baby drown in it's bath water quite so quickly.
There is always the possibility, that the amount of "GOLD" backing
might be increased to make it more attractive, before letting it go.

In all of the discussions of CBs and gold leasing, hasn't anyone
noticed that the US has not done any leasing, selling or even talking
about it. Shouldn't the silence speak louder than words???

Could the Feds have been buyers at rediculously low prices, which
they themselves have initiated, in conjuntion with world CBs?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:15 - ID#284255)
Smart Legals
Beware of what Congress and the White House does in the final days, the flurry
of activity is intended to hide from the public what is really going on. A
case in point is the secret deal between the American Trial Lawyers Assn. and
the Information Technology Assn of America on the Year 2000 "Good Samaritan"
law. ITAA hired the trial lawyer's lobbying firm, Patton Boggs, in order to
work out the following deal. IT companies, like software companies, get
liability protection for disclosure. However the trial lawyers get to sue the
IT customer companies for Year 2000 failures. In effect the IT industry
conspired with the trial lawyers to shift liability to their customers.

Check this out by contacting the ITAA ( 703-284-5340 or 283-5301 ) to confirm or
deny that they decided to use the same lobbying firm as the trial lawyers
( Patton Boggs ) , and that the IT industry gets protected under the Good
Samaritan Law, while "IT customers" get nothing.

Voyeur Professor
(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:26 - ID#231112)

You have expressed my own suspicions on the subject. As you suggest, might the belief that the Euro cannot be allowed to fail prompt a desire to beef up its legitimacy by increasing its gold reserves. If this condition should prove to be true, we could witness a stunning gold bull market soon, a bull, however, that would have a limited duration and dependent upon the instability of the Euro. Once the Euro became established, would that not signal an end to the gold run and a return to Central Bank selling?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:29 - ID#289271)
ANYONE charts?
Can someone direct me to where I can find free yearly charts on the following:
DOW crash of 29
Yearly of current DOW
Yearly currency charts of the countries in currency crisis.
Japan, Russia, Asia, etc. etc. etc.

Much appreciated, Thanks

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:33 - ID#344326)
@ Scito...
This site should help you alot. Much commentary about the parallels of '29 and today's DOW. Charts of both, overlayed.....

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:34 - ID#339274)
FWIW 78.60 perfect retracement.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:36 - ID#212197)
@SDRer: The Cart and the Horse
I like this view. Gold promotes the EURO and not the other way round.
That's a much more aggressive view and much better for gold than I ever had thought of. Because when it can be proven that gold helps the EURO, gold will regain its reserve currency status. It is THE ONLY legitimate reserve currency anyhow, as long as the world stays with fiat currencies.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:36 - ID#284255)
Here's a chart of the three tops.
Quite recently updated.
Kudos not to me but a fellow Kitcoite.

You will find more of what you want under the charts section here

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:43 - ID#290172)
Voyeur Professor -- Euro 'votes'
It is difficult to accept a 25% investment in Homestake as a vote for--or against--anything other than Homestake. 'Voting' for Euro failure would surely prompt a wider range of positions, spread across the field of fiats. The Dmark would, for instance, be an immediate beneficiary of Euro collapse.

And too, one must ask, "Why should the Euro fail?" ECB holds gold for a number of sound reasons, among which is the Chinese insistence on the ECB holding gold, a quid pro quo for the Chinese Euro 'sponsorship'.
And one can say no more about that for the present.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:44 - ID#229207)
Dow rally fizzles on Fed worry, Nasdaq stays firm
NEW YORK, Nov 11 ( Reuters ) - The opening rally in blue chips fizzled by mid-morning with the Dow shedding its gains, but the Nasdaq, boosted by an Intel Corp. ( Nasdaq:INTC - news ) led charge, remained well in positive terrain.

Blue chips lost momentum as the tech rally failed to sustain a broader market which is still riddled with concerns that the Fed may not cut interest rates next Tuesday, traders said.
The Fed will NOT raise rates, so if this reporter's interpretation of weakness in the DOW is true, then you can bet on a dive Monday. I suspect that the DOW will slowly deflate today and tomorrow as the Fed keep hinting about not dropping rates and the market gradually discounts for this.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:45 - ID#430221)
I want to admit that the information that my broker gave and I
believed was incorrect. It is 1 for 3. So instead of a 70% gain we have
a 25% loss in the stock.

I could not believe the first reports from some of the posters
that it was 1 for 3 because the DOW JONES NEWS SERVICE said otherwise
and that I and my broker at Morgan Stanley/Dean Witter trusted them
more than anyother source. I am most happy that I did not sell on the
news thinking I was gettin a gain only to find out I had sold for a big
loss. I hope none of you did this.

I do not recall anything like this happening before and it does not
speak well for the company as it was their decision as what to do with
the stock. They could have moved it off the exchange or done a 7 for 10
to get it over a dollar. To do this to shareholders is bad management.
Kebble shoud be fired.

I am sorry if I insulted some of you on this site.

My tail is between my legs.

Thanks, GD

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:45 - ID#284255)
Truth In Media

Worth a browse???

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:52 - ID#344326)
ECB to increase gold reserves?
Should add fire to the old Kitco discussion of the deliberate ECB manipulation of the POG ( down ) so as not to appear to compete with the dollar. After deciding on a modest 15% gold reserves some time ago, there is talk of an increase....hmmmmmmmmm I suspect ANOTHER will be reappearing on USA Gold soon after a long absence. I'm sure there will be commentary by Bill Murphy in the Cafe as well. If one month gold lease rates start to climb now, that would give credence to a gold bull starting. Go Golf!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 11:57 - ID#318183)
gold dancer
bravo - i think that is what i've meant for the last two days.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:07 - ID#24135)
a hatfull of options ..
Lakefoil ..
Now that you mention it .. I did bid for all those
DD options sometime around January .. My broker at
investec told me and I entered a bid ..thing is ..
you have to bid for THE WHOLE LOT and I forget now
but it was a couple of million .. six million ??
At the time the volume was slack and they were traded
at about a rand ..
I think I bid about 20 cents.. they were taken out
with a bid at 50 cent .. the guy that got was South
African and worked then all off in off-market sales
at maybe 75 cents.. he did okay .. anyway they are
at about 1.5 - 2 now I think .. but they trade thinly
and if you want to sell a lot it must be off market
at a discount.
.. The problem is NOT the RSA company .. it is the
US regulations that do not permit you to receive
an option on a foreign stock .. somewhat neanderthal
approach IMHO.. but we all know that BIG BROTHER knows
best now dont we ..

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:08 - ID#35571)
Gold and silver shine, crude slick

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:13 - ID#24135)
fire Kebble ??
gold dancer/lakefoil

What for .. The ADRs are issued by
a US bank .. that bank and the US
brokers screwed up the information ..
.. US regulations required the dumb
3 for 1 split .. or the stock had
to delist ... shall I repost what I
said before on ADRS .. I know you
didnt read it the first time .. how
about the second ?? Remember 3 strikes
and you're out!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:23 - ID#35571)
When does gold go to three two five ?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:32 - ID#266105)

Gollum ( When does gold go to three two five ? )


(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:35 - ID#284255)
I thought Another went down in that plane crash in Canada???

Gov't sharing info

Who grows what

Canadian Utilities

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:35 - ID#35571)
When is a transfer a sale and when is it an increase in reserves?

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:36 - ID#24135)
rather than watch gold ..
just sit there and stagnate ..

Why not go to a Movie .. I did ..
" The Big Lobowski " .. dont ask
questions .. just go see it ...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:37 - ID#284255)
Ontario Securities Commision

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:37 - ID#258427)
Funny!!! grin and rotflmrao!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:44 - ID#413109)
What sir, is your field of expertise?
Monsieur le Voyeur Professor,

Seeing as we have reached a level or agreement, in part, I'd like to take it a step further and that is
into the technical side.
Should we have a gold run, as I expect of, say, approx 100 points, one usually finds, first of all
some distribution by traders at the high levels, then a correction, which is normal, and then another
leg, as we call the next move up.

If you would look at some longer term charts, say from the early or late '70s, you would understand
my point. The long term outlook for gold, or anything of intrinsic value, has to be positive, as some-
where along the line the public will wake up to the fact that paper is paper, and faith in it isn't worth
the ink that's used to print the zeros.

History has taught us, and history shall repeat, that true value is exactly that, not faith in what our
so called leaders and shakers tell us it is, false idols-FIAT PAPER, with no real value. However there
is a time frame, and that's the key. In the future, yes, but what length. My guess is a lengthy period
of correction which will be somewhere around 1/2 the time of the BIG BULL, and man, that's really
what we've had, a lot of Bull. But many have made money from this bull, and this at the expense of
future generations. History does repeat, and that's the nature of our specie, we refuse to accept what
history, or elders with experience, try to teach, so-- le plus ca change, le plus ca le meme chose.
There's nothing new under the sun!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:45 - ID#229207)
Friday the 13th?
If the US attacks Iraq, the Fed rate drop looks even more unlikely, and we don't get a confirmed deal between Brazil and the IMF, what might Friday look like stock market-wise?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:46 - ID#119358)
@T#1......welcome to the world of perpendicular thinking..............
would you kindly take your seat next to me. ahh this kitco...ahh, this kitco...for those not that unlike the authors of the declaration of independence........

ahh this kitco.......and thus far, the most expensive club to which I have had the honor to subscribe....but, well worth it, yes. GO GOLDBUGS!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:46 - ID#229207)
John Disney
Great movie. Favorite scene: ashes.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:51 - ID#269409)
@ EJ.... DOW fizzle
Your scenario may play out..however, notice that tech shares are showing a lot of strength. In fact they've been soaring strongly for days..making new highs on several issues...ever since last week when someone here mentioned a recommendation that tech, shares ought to be dumped.

Intel approaching all time high today, stronger than expected sales / earnings. . Also, look at those net stocks... sheesh, Ktel making the THIRD in a wave of 150% + 2 day gains gains over the past few weeks. After the next drop, what will their NEXT press release be? You could have quadrupled your money in this one stock with no derivitaves in a matter of weeks.

Ebay, same thing. I missed any Ktel plays, but did manage to snag some Ebay shares the first day they came on the market...only because I've done substantial PM coin business on Ebay and was invited to a big IPO "kick off" dinner where they sucessfully convinced me to snag some shares. It's up about 400% in weeks also...but alas...rather than counting my blessings I'm cursing myself for buying such a small block of shares!!! ( Their IPO was at the height of the Gloom and Doom a few weeks ago ) .

Ohhh wellll ... we'll keep hoping for that big Bear pullback that'll allow a full foray back into the broad market eh?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:56 - ID#284255)

Seems they need a spell checker.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 12:57 - ID#430221)
The US markets did not require anything except that if Rangold still
wanted to be on the exchange they had to get the price above $1. It is
up to the company to decide how. ONLY the company could decide a change
in shares. KEBBLE was the only one to make the decision and see that it
was carried out. The people responsible for this mistake lies with RANYD.
They could have decided on anythin. Remove the listing ( not a good idea ) ,
inform their shareholders before hand so no disruptions occur in trading
( the best idea ) . To show so little regard for shareholders is
unforgivable. If this is what Kebble thinks of me, F*** him, I will
never vote for him.

Along these lines, I can't vote my considerable shares because they did
not get the info to the distribution office soon enough. This refers
to their most recent mailing this month.

I don't care one way or another about the split. I am smart enough to
know that is might even benefit me. But I damn well care about this
dictiorial, egotistical, sob who runs the Company who seems not to care
about ALL his shareholders. He seems only to care about those who own
controling interest. This in inself is a bad sign for a president and
I believe he is as bad as Clinton. He should go. I will always vote
against him from now on. Not that that will matter. But he voted against me and he will never have my support.

Thanks, GD

Gandalf the White
(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:01 - ID#433301)
FOA is back at USAGOLD Forum
AND he has messages from ANOTHER to be posted soon.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:06 - ID#219363)
Dude, I hope you knocked on wood after you typed all that : ) Never taunt the happy fun bear, even when it's sulking in it's cage, it has a long memory. I bought Yahoo when it first came out, probably before most of the people on this forum had even seen their first IP packet, but I've since sold it as the mania is reaching it's peak. Remember, the time to buy is when everyone in the world is selling. The time to sell, is when everyone in the world is buying. This still feels like, well, when I was in college we always had a "beginning of the world" party when we came back in the fall, and an "end of the world" party before we left in the spring. This is definitely a party, and it doesn't feel like the beginning of the world.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:08 - ID#194311)
On an Orthogonal Trajectory.
To the Leonids,
Friday the 13 th,
Is imminently upon us,
The beginning of an end to an beginning again.

Charleston Gold Bug
(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:09 - ID#344389)
XAU Support Broken
78.60 retracement broken through, GC8Z -.50cents

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:16 - ID#339274)
FWIW sold NEM 22 1/2,looking for cheaper price 22 1/4

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:19 - ID#339274)
FWIW next support 78,with stop 77.7

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:24 - ID#430221)
Disney- more on Kebble
Polarbear reported on his site that Kebble said he was buying more
Rangold when it was available. If this sob caused confusion so he could pick up more stock then he should be put in Jail. Firing isn't good

I am sure he will come out with some excuse why this happened. But
the truth of the matter is that he runs that company and is the only person responsible. I say fire him! The changing of a companies
capitalization is too important to screw up.

Thanks, GD

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:24 - ID#254321)
Gold spin: CB gold purchases push gold down
trader vic: It seems perfectly obvious to me. For years we have been sensitized to sellers of gold, even when we suspected it might be important to know who the buyers are. Now Gold is peeking its nose out of a two year downtrend, and I guess we are still expected to focus on the Gold sellers -- not the buyers, even it the buyers are CB's.

What really worries me is that there are several big dominoes that could fall, and push gold/gold stocks down in a hurry. The question is when. At other times, gold and inparticular gold stocks will be a good buy -- although undoubtedly a roller coaster ride.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:27 - ID#229207)
You bet. That's a good way to play a bear market. Of course, there's a million ways to lose in the big city, so you never know. As for my gambling money, if the DOW falls back to around 7400 and hangs in there for a few days, then I'll dump my shorts buy back into the market. If it falls below 7400, then I'll increase my shorts and rise it down to wherever it's going next.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:30 - ID#35571)
So now we can turn ALL our attention to Iraq

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:34 - ID#404312)
bullion vs stocks

just wondering what would happen if all that money going into gold stocks went into buying gold

even gold bugs don't want the stuff

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:34 - ID#81288)
McClellan oscillator is signalling a major breakdown in equities. Must be a big rally coming... Watching gold and XAU going nowhere in slow motion has almost convinced me that gold is dead for good. So, a big breakout to the upside must be just around the corner. Which corner?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:36 - ID#229207)
Gollum - Other distraction
We haven't seen our daily progress report on the Brazil/IMF deal.

The problem with making negotations public is that this always weakens your negotiating position of one of the players. Since the G7 leaders have proclaimed Brazil too big to fail, Brazil has the advantage. Maybe they're playing it too hard?

In my experience, Brazilians have a particular negotiating style. Let's just say, the words printed on the agreement will read differently than the words previoulsy spoken and agreed to. I hope the IMF has a Brazilian on their team that knows how to play their game.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:40 - ID#288186)
hold your tickets folks.........the PM trading isn't over yet...
Dec Gold currently @ 294.20 // Dec Silver @ 5.005 // Jan Platinum @ 341.00 //

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:45 - ID#35571)
Troops and planes

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:46 - ID#176200)
Gold Dancer, I feel your pain as well. I own some R* also but...
Disney has made several posts as to what may happen and to watch these guys like a hawk. It would appear he knew what he was talking about so far. Hang in there, it will be alot tougher to be a goldbug in the
short term future. I plan to...

Best Regards, O.L.

Not speaking for my employer.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:46 - ID#194311)
Who does an ever lower gold price screw the most?
Why the producers of course. This ponzi golding loaning scheme is just another mechanism for powerful old world money ( who have raped there own natural resources to death ) to get cheap gold out of the ground of other nations. Commonly this is referred to as exploitation.

The major gold producing nations of Australia, S. Africa, Indonesia, Chile, Peru, and a myriad of other smaller developing nations have been duped into handing over their natural resources. The gold producing compaies haven't faired that well either. When confronted about so called "hedging" schemes they shrug their shoulders uselessly and say "it's the way of the market", all the while handing over their gold including future production at near or below cost in exchange for soon to be devalued paper. Wake up mining lads, the jokes on you.

What if half the rumours are for real? What if the ECB is going to announce higher gold holdings " ensure currency stability with a broader range of currencies..."? What if the Arab oil producers are going to demand payment for oil in gold-backed currencies only " ensure a guaranteed preservation of there reserves..."? What if actully the manipulative US investment banks, with their fingers in the politicians pie-holes, are tools of a wider scheme for the treasury to beef up US gold reserves, cheaply before the onslaught of the euro and global debt "...forgiveness..."? It is a Jeubilee year my friends, batman Al and wonder boy Robin Rubin understand.

Gold producers you've been HAD.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:47 - ID#43460)
Happy Armistice Day to all.
It's funny, I can no longer recall the names of all the guys in my squadron who ended up in smoking holes or scattered all over the mountain tops. So time does heal many wounds.

Mooney, you only wrote down the beginning of the poem. the last verse is the most important one.

BTW, I'm toying with the idea of buying more silver, gold or platinum. Any suggestions, comments? Recall that I'm an amateur artist and so silver is something I can add value to, but gold is middling good due to its cost and platinum is worthless except as an investment due to its cost, high melting point and difficult working properties.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:48 - ID#372228)
JTF - CB transfers of gold
I hear you JTF...I just think that CNBC is like a broken record that regardless of what the news is, the last statement out of their mouth is "That will be bad for gold in the coming year" that everyone will fear gold regardless of the real story...and if the price of gold does go down, we'll just buy more with those Fiat dollars the fed is doesn't bother me anymore...I don't need this money until I retire...and if Alan Greenspan thinks he can outlast me...he has another think coming...besides, he looks like he's already dead.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:50 - ID#35571)
They've got a frown and a jutted jaw
With troops and planes being sent, the UN guys all pulled out, no one talking about any kind of negotiation, Russia being quiet ( as well as other oil producing countries who probably wouldn't mind a price increase ) , it appears we are going to get it on.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:53 - ID#229207)
Thank You
To all Veterans here who fought to preserve the freedom I enjoy today, I offer my greatest appreciation and respect.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:56 - ID#339274)
FWIW No follow through ,bought back at 22 7/16

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:59 - ID#31868)
LGB, Namaste' gulp and a puff to you
on my total agreement to post...yup on huh...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 13:59 - ID#35571)
Clinton prepared to act

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:00 - ID#430221)
Here is a copy of the letter just sent to RANYD
Kathy DuPlessis,

I am sure I am not the first US shareholder to e-mail you as to my completedisatisfaction with the way the recent reverse split was handled. I have a considerable position of 29,000 shares with my girl friend/partner owning 30,000 shares.

It was, as you now know, reported in the Dow Jones News that the ratio was
7 for 10 . I believed this as this brought the stock up to NAV as it was trading
at around $2. I was to learn later that the ratio was 1 for 3 which meant that
instead of a 70% per cent gain as of Friday Nov. 6th, the stock was really showing
a loss of 30%.

This confusion has lasted for two days and as of yet Dow Jones News has not corrected this misinformation. Where did this misinformation come from?
How could this possibly have happened? I am happy that I did not sell my shares thinking a had a gain!

The changing of a companies capitalization is so important that to mess this up
does not speak well for the company, either its PR department or its management.

Why were not shareholders not notified well in advance? This would have saved
a lot of wrong decisions on my part. I thought I was buying low in the weeks that
preceded the split but this was not the case.

I also blame Mr. Kebble for this mistake of judgement. He is the person who runs
that company and makes the decisions. Should I ever get the chance to vote against
him I will. Unfortunately I did not receive the last voting information in time to
vote. ( NOV ) Will I receive the next?

Dennis Fechner

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:01 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...Hey...look up and over from your
seat...that is me waving at you from the Gold Room...I have a skybox at the Kitco stadium...bring the guitar along...and that funny looking guy in the photograph sitting next to ya...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:01 - ID#229207)
Trouble getting Brazil's neck into the IMF bail-out noose
Brazil shares shed 2.9 pct on political concerns

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:03 - ID#339274)
FWIW short term cycle bottom in ten minutes

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:05 - ID#404312)

First, thanks to all veterans who fought in any war

Second, what we are missing is a memorial or other recognition of the sacrifice of an entire generation--40+years--to keep marxism at bay.
I would suggest that we change veterans day to the day the Berlin wall fell, an update from a date remembering ancient history, the dumbest war--WWI--of this century. A monument would also be fitting, encompassing all the battles with the evil empire in that long war--Korea to Vietnam to Grenada.

Mad Hatter
(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:07 - ID#284230)
(On an Orthogonal Trajectory?) @ KIWI
In regards to the Leonid, what in laymans terms is an Orthogonal Trajectory?


(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:11 - ID#31868)
LGB, Namaste' gulp and a puff
should have your post...opps..........

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:30 - ID#372228)
EJ - Brazil
Since Robt. Rubin et al have already stated that Brazil will get the money needed and they have created a $90 Billion fund to bail out those in need, I don't see why Brazil has to do anything to get the money except to "Just Say NO" to IMF terms...the loan has already been announced and guaranteed! So what's the problem? Unless they ( Rubin, etc. ) are worried that they won't get their money back either...sort of like Russia, when they begged for the $18 billion dollars, got it, then told everybody to go pound sand....

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:33 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmmmmmmm...I am still concerned about readiness...very concerned...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:34 - ID#119358)
@GOld Dancer....yes, uhHuH........
the printed proxy statement for R* states that you have until Nov. 13 to vote...if I can be help, let me know. studio

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:36 - ID#119358)
nice pull......R*.........yeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! salud to YA!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:37 - ID#31868)
Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jay Johnson said that deployed readiness is "adequate" in the Navy but that some key readiness indicators show disturbing trends. The readiness of non-deployed units has little margin for flexibility, he said. "It is clear that in the case of non-deployed aircraft, material condition is on a downward trend," Johnson said. This means that units that have recently returned from deployment "train with fewer aircraft," deferring critical training until much closer to deployment. "This creates a last-minute scramble and in cases where funds, specific components, and parts are not available, sailors are forced to cannibalize from non-mission capable aircraft," Johnson testified. This pattern may be contributing to the 82 percent rise this year in aircraft crashes, Johnson said. "I am deeply troubled by this dangerous and tragic change and have directed a thorough review of the factors contributing" to the rise in accidents, he said. Johnson also said he is "disturbed" about unfunded modernization requirements. The Navy's top long-range procurement concern is its need to increase the shipbuilding rate from six or seven ships per year today to eight to 10 ships per year by the middle of next decade, Johnson said. Also, the Navy's aircraft procurement rate will not be acceptable until late in the future years defense plan, said Johnson, citing the delay of funding of the Common Support Aircraft by two years. "I am also concerned about the inventory level of critical munitions, particularly the Tomahawk Block III missile, and the associated risk of fighting two nearly-simultaneous" major theater wars, Johnson said.

The Air Force is also experiencing a decline in readiness. Mission capable rates for all of the service's weapons systems has declined almost 9 percent since 1991, according to testimony by Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Ryan. In the last seven months alone, mission capable rates have dropped by 2 percent, he testified. The overall readiness of major units has declined by 14 percent in the last two-and-a-half years and stateside combat readiness has declined by 49 percent. Nearly half of that decline in readiness came in the last seven months, Ryan said.

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:40 - ID#33182)
"My man in Frankfurt says that on the military part of the airport, several dozen bombers have been landing since 18CET. Unusual for a Wednesday, but the tower is keeping slots open all night, extraordinary night landing permit was obtained this afternoon."

Charleston Gold Bug
(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:44 - ID#344389)
XAU Support Broken
Next support level- 21 day moving average
at 74.77

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:46 - ID#119358)
@KitcO Stadium.......T#1........if time permits.......
would you have Jorge' bring BB and me a couple'O'cuba.libres...pleeeeeeze....these root beers are gettin' kinda' old....."hey! BB, can you see, man we have da' ball? no, studio....I can't see nuttin' man. bb&studio@cheap.seats

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:47 - ID#194311)
Mad the Hat...An Orthogonal Dimension
is one which is not measured by the existing dimensions.

In 3-space an orthogonal dimensions are at pi/2 radians to one another

In 4-space time is orthogonal to the 3 spatial dimensions.

In higher multi-dimensional spaces an orthogonality condition allows for the simplification of mathematical expressions and also contains information about the underlying symmetries. For instance if the gradient of entropy were to be always orthogonal to the gradient of energy, thus we would be required to conclude that time runs forward.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:48 - ID#28882)
Silver Warehouse Numbers for '98.

RJ apparently had them from 87 through till Jan 98'. Here are the rest, starting with Jan 2, 98 through yesterday, omitting holidays and wk-ends. Happy fiddling, all.



(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:50 - ID#285233)
Orthogonal Trajectory
Madd Hatter- this trajectory would be perpendicular and intersecting to the Earth's orbit @ the Sun. Earth's orbital velocity would not add or subtract to the velocity of impacting debree.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:51 - ID#31868)
kiwi, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I always thought orthogonal trajectory
was the flight path of bird droppings...I learn somethin knew every day...

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:54 - ID#377196)

Order - The Last Race of the 20th Century ( 1st edition ) , by Jude
Order - The Way the World Works ( 4th edition ) , by Jude Wanniski.
Have something to say? Enter TalkShop!
The Drudge Report
National Center for Policy Analysis
The Washington Post

MARKET CALLS: An Update on Our Domestic Track Record.

Sign-on for our Y2K Service.

SSU Last Week: Lesson #9 - "Can We Still Avoid Inflation?" ( F.A. Hayek )
. Register for SSU and join our growing student body.GSU Students Click

Will the GOP Get It?
"...The GOP is beginning to tell itself that the only problem is that it
wasn't "principled" enough. Have to fight even harder against abortions
and gays. The press is saying that the problem is the GOP's intransigent
devotion to tax cutting ( what a laugh ) ..."--Don Luskin, 11-10-98.

Related Links:

Iraq Crisis --
Yahoo! Full Coverage

Last Week on CNN's Crossfire

What? VX Gas in Iraq??

NOTE: Visitors with Lynx and older versions of Netscape and Explorer
print from this page.


November 11, 1998

Propaganda, Full Circle

Memo To: James Rubin, Asst. Secy. of State, Public Affairs
From: Jude Wanniski
Re: Wrong on Iraq/UNSCOM

Ive been thinking about your appearance on CNNs Crossfire last week,
when Bob Novak gave you the devil on our governments treatment of the
Islamic world in general and Iraq in particular. All your responses were
reasonable, I thought, except on one factual error you made that is so
critical Ive decided to write you this memo. Do you remember when Novak
asked "Isnt it a fact that we have not found any weapons of mass
destruction since just after the Gulf War and then those we were led to
by the Iraqi government? All these inspectors found nothing, isnt that
true? To which you answered without any hesitation and thus with maximum
credibility, "On the contrary, the weapons inspectors, Mr. Novak, have
found more weapons of mass destruction in the seven years since the Gulf
War than were destroyed during the Gulf War. As recently as this year VX
gas remnants were found by the U.N. inspectors. They have been working
very, very hard uncovering an enormous amount of weapons of mass
destruction. Thats why their work is so important."

Now Im sure you told the truth as you know it, Mr. Rubin, but what came
out of your mouth in this instance is absolutely incorrect. When the
President last year began using this formulation as justification for
our continued sanctions and fresh military buildup, it occurred to me
that he had to be stretching the facts. Ive followed the situation in
Iraq, albeit loosely, since the Iran/Iraq war broke out in 1979. In the
years since the Gulf War ended, I never read or heard about any UNSCOM
"discoveries" of weapons of mass destruction. My assumption was that the
Presidents speechwriters decided to embellish on the fact that the
weapons to which UNSCOM had been taken by the Iraqi government had more
firepower than were delivered in the Gulf War. Like the parlor game of
ghost, once this "fact" was repeated several times in the news media, it
became total fact. Now you, the chief public affairs officer of our
State Department, have come to believe in its correctness and play it
back via your big megaphone. Newspaper editorial writers drag it out
again and it is repeated endlessly on the talk shows and network evening

Because I spent much of my adult life as a reporter/columnist/editorial
writer, Ive come to know an implausible story when one comes along. As
a result, early this year I asked the Iraqi United Nations Ambassador,
Nizar Hamdoon, more or less the same question Bob Novak asked you. I
preceded the question by saying I expected a truthful answer, because
the answer would have to be verifiable from official sources. Hamdoon
told me there had been no weapons caches unearthed since November 1991
and that all those unearthed prior to that date had been the result of
Iraqi guidance for UNSCOM. He indicated Baghdad and Saddam Hussein
wanted to be as quick about the process as they could be in order to get
the sanctions lifted.

You may know I am an outside advisor to Jack Kemp. I reported Hamdoons
statement to him and he was astonished to hear it. He assigned a
research assistant to scour the UNSCOM records, and the assistant
reported to Kemp that Hamdoon told the truth. The records clearly
indicate no site discovered since 1991. The VX gas to which you referred
was not "discovered" by UNSCOM inspectors. What happened was that UNSCOM
decided to return to a site that had been opened to them since 1991.
They had poked through it at the time and could have returned at any
time to inspect it again. They said they picked missile shards out of
the debris and sent the shards to our science labs in Aberdeen for
analysis, and Aberdeen said they found traces of VX. The Iraqis never
said they did not attempt to produce VX during the Iran/Iraq war. They
said they did produce it, but told UNSCOM that they could never figure
out how to weaponize it. Material from the same site was sent to French
and Swiss labs, and they reported finding nothing. The U.S. response was
that they probably didnt get the right fragments. My sources in the
scientific community tell me it is extremely unlikely that traces of VX
could be found amongst debris at a weapons site, that the Iraqis who
deposited it there would have died a ghastly death -- and as a result
those in charge would not have had them trundle fragments laden with VX
to such a site. It is more likely that one of the components of VX could
have been found on the shards, but that would not prove the Iraqis had
weaponized VX.

These are critical details, Mr. Secretary, because our government is
about to blow Iraq to bits over this information. Ive informed Senate
Majority Leader Trent Lott about these inconsistencies and would urge
you to make sure you have all your facts straight before you again
represent them as the evidence which calls for the US to inflict further
suffering on the people of Iraq. Im sending a copy of this fax to the
National Security Council and to the White House and Vice Presidents
Office. And of course to Mr. Kemp and Mr. Novak.

Poly Poll
Where will the DJIA be at the end of the year?

Current Results

Recent Memos

Jack Kemp's Election Commentary, 11-10-98.
Newt's First Mistake, 11-09-98.
GOP -- A Party Adrift, 11-05-98.
Memo to Saddam Hussein, 11-4-98.
The Wisconsin Senate Race, 11-3-98.

1998 Memo Index

Return to the top of the page.


Memo/ About Polyconomics/ Market Analyses/ Supply-Side University

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:54 - ID#229207)
IMF deal comes with stings attached that may make the bailout not worth it for Brazilan politicians. The Left gained a lot of seats in the last elections and is making a come-back in neighboring nations. Brazil is already in recession even without the required lowered government spending and increased taxes. Using Malaysia, Indonesia, South Korea, and Russia, as recent examples, if the end game of an IMF bailout is a currency collapse, flight of foreign capital and political turmoil, then passing on the new IMF debt, devaluing the currency, and slapping on capital controls starts to look like a better option. At least you get to keep your job.



(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:56 - ID#339274)
Awful close
FWIW the trip wire is still at 77.8,NEM holding up fairly well.
22 1/4 would trip it as well

(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:56 - ID#389387)
Beautiful symetrical double top. Lookout below.

EZ Believer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 14:58 - ID#173262)
John Disney ... Remember some warnings, not the specifics. How about an ADR re-post?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:01 - ID#153110)
@RJ @au*stralian @Mooney
@RJ Well, I understand you purveyors to the global consumer have your "crients" sensibilities to consider. And romance or ( is it sex ? ) , too. Perhaps even undisclosed matrimonial plans with a sister of your Far East brother. Your motives for desiring to erase Colonel Bogey and the railway from history and conversation are understood. No doubt the Rights of Man are universal, but the jurisprudence and culture securing them are not. Banzai !

@au*stralian Your discouraging words on the Lost Cause were read.

@Mooney Read the 5:51 post. The unsentimental fact is Americans have been deceived. That does not detract from the actual benefit received by people who were liberated or defended by Americans who were susceptible to government propaganda telling them they were fighting for freedom because they knew freedom is worth fighting for. That those so defended in past peril should perversely propagandaize now in international fora against our natural and constituted right to keep and bear arms, a belief in which motivated our fathers at Guadalcanal and the like places, is unkind. And I thought somebody ought to say so.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:03 - ID#377196)
I just read the insert saying that they were sorry but they got the
info too late to be able to vote.

Can I vote these on a web site?

Thanks, GD

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:07 - ID#153110)
Great idea. I propose a giant Massa Card against the backdrop of a massive 1040 Return and National ID Card. Please read my 5:51 to get my drift.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:07 - ID#339274)
FWIW stop still in place 22 1/4

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:08 - ID#194311)
steady...yes and no.
yes,it would be then perpendicular to the earth's orbit about the sun, however this would add to the impact velocity of the asteroid upon the earth. By pythagorus;

Impact velocity = Square root ( Asteroid vel. ^2 + Earth orbital vel. ^2 )

Right who's got some numbers?, we want to know how fast these suckers are gonna be coming at us, should be liquifying/gasifying even ionising energy levels...hey heavy ion radiation would screw up lotsa comms..hmmmmm.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:09 - ID#377196)
Sorry about all the junk before but I had to use select all to copy
and didn't go back and check the top before posting.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:11 - ID#24135)
Movies are fun ..and I'll have that job
for EJ ..
Great scene - ashes .. talented director .. super script ..
and that bowler Jesus Gimenez !! better than watching
gold petrify at 293 and listen to everyboby bitch
at poor Kebble..

for all kebble bashers

... You know ..rangold is a holding company .. its
value is its ASSETS .. whether it splits 10 for one
or one for three doesnt change anything !! so dont
vote for Kebble.. good for you .. why not vote for me??
If Im elected Ill try to keep you in the picture ..
plus a goldbug in every pot...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:13 - ID#339274)
FWIW Against all rational,plat still tells me to stay long.

Mad Hatter
(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:13 - ID#284230)
Leonid meteors
Thanks for the Astronomy lesson!

It will be interesting to see what these will do to the hundreds of communication satelites next week.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:15 - ID#194311)
Now let's see no buying dollars in China, but you can buy gold.
China Limits Currency Transfers

SHANGHAI, China ( AP ) -- Chinese state banks have begun blocking
most foreign-currency transfers within the country as part of a
crackdown on illegal money trading, bank officials said Wednesday.
China is trying to stop the outflow of capital and shore up
confidence in its currency, the yuan, which doesn't trade
internationally. Chinese individuals and companies have been buying
U.S. dollars out of concern the yuan would be devalued -- something
Chinese leaders have promised repeatedly not to do.
Banks are rejecting transfers into personal accounts from
corporations and other personal accounts, the officials said.
Withdrawals over $10,000 require written approval from
foreign-exchange regulators.
``We are now required to keep a close eye on all hard-currency
transfers, and if the individuals aren't immediate family members,
then it can't be done,'' Ma Limin, a banker with the Shanghai
branch of the Bank of China, told Dow Jones Newswires.
Such transactions have all but stopped in the past month after a
surge earlier in the year, Ma said.
It wasn't clear whether the rules were imposed nationwide or
only in major cities where illicit foreign-currency trading is on
the rise, or how long they would remain in place.
Regulators have closed loopholes that allowed companies to
acquire foreign currency illicitly, and have arrested black-market

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:16 - ID#339274)
John Disney
You got my proxies ,hmm the taste of a gold bug would be not appitizing.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:17 - ID#194311)
US dollar archilles Argy peg...looking shaky...$3 bill injection.
Argentina Gets $3B from World Bank

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The World Bank approved two loans for
Argentina totaling more than $3 billion Tuesday to help the country
ward off an Asian-style financial crisis.
The bank's board approved a so-called special structural
adjustment loan of $2.5 billion and a special support loan of $505
As financial uncertainties threaten neighboring Brazil,
Argentina's largest trading partner, the World Bank said in a
statement the structural loan would be used to mitigate ``the
deleterious effect of the current international financial stability
on the economy'' by ``meeting critical foreign exchange issues.''
Last summer, Argentina tightened its economic policy by shelving
a $10 billion road program and postponing a raise in teachers'
wages. President Carlos Menem then announced a $1 billion cut in
this year's government spending in an effort to keep the budget
deficit below $3.5 billion.
Argentine officials say their defenses against external
contagion are far stronger than in 1995 when the effects of
Mexico's peso crisis caused economic slumps for other Latin
American nations. As an example, the officials cite the closure of
weak banks and the sale of many larger ones to foreigners.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:17 - ID#24135)
Salty as usual ..
was right ..
Gen'ral Mozel Suh ..
Ah took salty's advice to you to get
out more and went to the movies on
your behalf .. I hope that makes you
feel a bit refreshed ..

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:19 - ID#219363)
Yep, I love these charts - you can almost take a straight edge across the tops and the bottoms.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:20 - ID#229207)
DOW dips below 8800

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:23 - ID#119358)
@GOld Dancer........
I left my printed proxy at the office..........but, as I recall, there was an ID# for me.....I logged onto and inserted my id#, I was then asked to submit the last four digits of my SS#... I submitted my votes and presto. Your broker should be able to get your girlfriend's and your id #'s....these #'s would enable you to vote.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:23 - ID#288466)
It is surprising how often the near-misses are. Bet you didn't even know this one barely missed us.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:26 - ID#242325)
Mike Sheller and APH
Energy service stocks really got wacked the last few days. Have given up about half their gains from the October bottom. A buying opportunity?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:31 - ID#389387)
@envy Things I'll miss the most after y2k
I think I'll miss the most. 100 on the Instant Gratification Index.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:32 - ID#119358)
you have my vote.......with one small concession....I want to be a quasi/ad hoc/unofficio/acting board member ( I don't want to work, or even vote, for that matter ) ....but we are required to attend semi-annual board meetings at locations, per your instruction, at the expense of the co. treasury. deal?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:34 - ID#339274)
FWIW My stop is 21 7/8.NEM bounced two times from 22 ,a break
below tells me we are in trouble

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:39 - ID#347457)
@Cyclist and short term predictions
Cyclist, I always admired you guys able to read charts, doing cycle analysis and all that stuff. However, don't you think that you are taking it into extreme? Here is the sequence of your posts:

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 13:16
FWIW sold NEM 22 1/2,looking for cheaper price 22 1/4

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 13:56
FWIW No follow through ,bought back at 22 7/16

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 14:03
Cyclist ( XAU ) ID#339274:
FWIW short term cycle bottom in ten minutes

However, looking at chart, at 14:15 XAU was about 78.48 but kept going down 77.97 at 14:47 and 77.21 at 15:39.
NEM keeps going down with XAU - 22 3/8 at 15:39.

Don't you think that this time your trading based on a short-term movement analysis cost you some money?
I think that you put too much trust to technical charts doing these short ten minutes trades. Anyway, how much money you move around? Are you making money on this short term trading, betting on short, 10-15 minutes predictions? Sometimes we get too much wrapped around a narrow interpretation what market will do. At least I do, though my time horizon is much longer than yours.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:39 - ID#219363)
Oh yeah definitely, I love that applet.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:45 - ID#153110)
Gen'ral the courtesy of any refreshment is always appreciated by me.

Perhaps Salty is a bit down with cabin fever himself in the aftermath of losing his horseless carriage to some of his sharing and caring countrymen.

Let me confide that I suspect Ol' Salty has a NWO-instilled belief that travel overseas will miraculously re-educate me to a socialized, socialist citizen of the world. I don't think so.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:46 - ID#389387)
@Miro - Once you realize the fractal nature of stocks.
You'll see that you can make as much money in a day as holding a stock "for the long haul". It is just a matter of choosing your event horizon.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:46 - ID#288186)
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Nov. 11

Gold 836,648 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 73,999,894 + 0 troy ounces
Copper 69,515 + 0 short tons

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:47 - ID#43460)
Sam re silver warehouse stocks
To quote Steven J. Kaplan's November 10, 1998 report: "...COMEX silver warehouse stocks were unchanged at 73,999,894 ounces, modestly above their lowest level since 1982." He has some interesting opinions about gold and pgms as well.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:51 - ID#153110)
@Armistice Day Action Agin' Iraq It cannot amount to much unless friendly
fire destroys oil production facilities in Sodom Arabia.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:52 - ID#347457)
@NTEOTWAWKI on Once you realize the fractal nature of stocks.)
Agreed, but anly if your timing and prediction of stock movement is right. If you don't trade a large number of shares just commission on trades is pain in your behind and your account.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:54 - ID#377196)
Studio R
Thanks. I have made a permanent URL for

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:56 - ID#347457)
OOps, anly = only
if I keep doing this I'll end up with anally ;- )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 15:57 - ID#269409)
Gold / Silver ratio historics... (and other stuff...)
Fundamentals.... Supply / demand.... historic ratio.....production consumption....looming world crises...... how can silver lose?

A look at U.S. supply / demand / production / import / export ( You need Adobe Acrobat to read... )

How bout that historic ratio? Brought this up before, time to revisit.

The ratio of spot gold price to spot silver price is approximately 59 to 1 at present. Research shows the following historical data regarding this ratio:

Egypt ( 2700 BC ) 9.0 to 1
Egypt ( 1000 BC ) 10.0 to 1
Greece ( 300 BC ) 10.0 to 1
Medieval Italy 12.6 to 1
1700-1720 15.1 to 1
1800-1820 15.3 to 1
1890 18.3 to 1
1932 75.0 to 1
1980 16.0 to 1
1991 ( February ) 100.0 to 1
1994 ( July ) 73.3 to 1

Since the early 1990's we have seen an important trend downward in this ratio. Assuming a stable gold price of $300 per oz., ( nope, I don't buy Another's 30,000..sorry.. ) and a decline in the ratio to 30:1, the resulting price of silver would be $10 per oz.

Only in the last 125 years has this ratio ever risen above 16:1. Assuming once again a gold price of $300 per oz. and a ratio of 15:1, the price of silver is $20 !! Uh huh. uh huh. Should the ratio continue to fall and gold begin to rise, the accompanying rise in silver would be significantly higher still. Good for GoldBugs AND Silverbugs.

India is the country that is clearly the largest participant in the world silver market. In the US, we place our savings with financial institutions or into equities ( well, SOME of us.. ) or housing. Indians, however, proportionately save much more ( an estimated 25% of income ) and channel those monies into their traditional mode of savings- silver.

That is why it is important that we closely monitor the state of the
economy in India. Presently, it is on the rebound with many reforms, albeit on a much lower profile than Japan or Brazil, in progress. We should keep an eye on the strength of the Indian financial markets ( BSE
30 ) and foreign exchange ( rupee ) .

I posted here a couple days ago, that demand and consumption has been rising in both India and Asia as of late ( October numbers were up substantially over September, partly a seasonal effect however ) .

Silver is a commodity with an inelastic supply and a somewhat inelastic demand. Since most silver ( about 2/3 ) is produced as a byproduct of base metal mining ( not primary silver mining ) , only higher prices for those base metals will help bring significant additional supplies of silver
to market. A higher silver price alone will not generate significant incremental production and supply.

What have we seen lately? Again, posted on Monday, falling copper and lead prices, and a burgeoning stockpile of same...AND a lot of pressure to lower production for these reasons.

In addition, there are long lead times for primary producers to bring more silver to market. The oversupply of silver in the market during the 1970s and 1980s has largely disappeared. The COMEX figures help to support that argument. Though it's been stable around 73 million lately, we'll see how long that lasts...and compared to a year ago..well you know the story. We're at 18 year lows. ( Barring that fearsome RJ silver stockpile in Europe factor!! )

The cost of silver in most products is proportionally small to the total cost; therefore, there is little reason for buyers to reduce consumption until very high silver prices materialize.

World tension is clearly rising. Israel and Palestine continue to have problems. We'll see if the "Peace deal" holds... Israel has not yet ratified it or submitted it for vote. We're fixing to kick some booty in Iraq ( unfortunately behind Commander in Cheat Clitton ) . Big article yesterday about how China is upset with the U.S. over Dalai-Lama issue, among other things.

Russians are marching in the streets, Yelstin is all but gone leaving a VERY dangerous power vacuum. Brazil, China, may or may not succumb to the apparently lessening global meltdown. I still say inflation may be in the cards as rates continue to get lowered. ( I made a minority vote here ) .

What does it all mean? Risk / reward ratio... / demand, lowering stockpiles, increasing tensions, spectre of possible inflation, potential to piggyback behind Gold, all of the above.

Buy some of the white & shiny to supplement yer Gold. Gotta be a good play!

( And SSC, SSRIF, PAASF can't be half bad well as physical Platinum for many of the same / similar reasons above )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:04 - ID#269409)
@ EJ...Good Market call
Your earlier AM call on today's Equitys market direction was right on the money. Going have to agree with you that the behemouth is running out of steam and must soon pull back. Net declines for tomorrow / Friday.

Bailed out of Ebay when it started falling earlier. Don't intend to get back in. Maybe some nice Apex, or Silver Standard Reserve is in order....

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:08 - ID#347457)
Whay can't gold do it? :-o
Go gold, you old sleepy thing! I need such jump in one day to recover my loses!!

3:51PM 47 3/8 +33 3/8 +238.39% 11,274,700

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:11 - ID#28882)
@gagnrad - re warehouse stocks

I usually get Kaplan every day, thanks; he is not much of a silver follower, though : ( Note - I am sorry I posted the historical numbers the way I did; for those using "Kitco Long" mode, that number dump must have been a pain in the ass. Sorry.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:12 - ID#347457)
That's it for me!
Too much coffee, can't type one sentence without typos. Sorry guys - long day!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:15 - ID#229207)
Uh, oh
"The Bovespa erased early gains on news that Congress put off finalizing a pension reform document."

Brazil shrs end off 3 pct on rates, political woes
SAO PAULO, Nov 11 ( Reuters ) - Brazilian shares retreated for a second day Wednesday on concern that political obstacles could slow the passage of austerity measures and a cut in interest rates, traders said.

``The markets aren't expecting as big a cut in interest rates tonight,'' said Carlos Hokama, a fund manager at Banco Credibanco in Sao Paulo. ``For foreign investors the yellow light has gone up and caution is on the rise.''

Sao Paulo's key Bovespa index closed off 2.97 percent at 7,763 points. The Bovespa erased early gains on news that Congress put off finalizing a pension reform document.

Investors worry that any signs of receding support for President Fernando Henrique Cardoso's fiscal tightening plan could slow cuts in interest rates and make Brazil more vulnerable to financial turmoil in the future.

The Central Bank's interest rate committee meets Wednesday night to set benchmark interest rates. While markets expect a cut in the target ceiling rate, currently at 49.75 percent, their expectations were lowered by recent political bumps.

Among blue-chip stocks, Eletrobras preferred tumbled 6.45 percent to 29 reais while Telebras preferred receipts slipped 3.76 percent to 97.20 reais.

Congressional approval of the pension fund was announced last week, causing the Bovespa to rise more than ten points. Now it turns out it's not yet "finalized." The pension fund is a baby step toward the other reforms required by the IMF.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:20 - ID#365216)
Perma_Pak shipment
Just got my year's supply of dehydrated food from Perma-Pak yesterday
( minus the hand grinder I ordered for the wheat ) so I am somewhat
prepared for unforeseen and foreseen ( Y2K ) emergencies. Still need
to convert some of that cash to gold/plat/silver though.

Carry on.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:29 - ID#253418)
To LBG and Cyclist
Without even looking at the final numbers I'm sure trip wires were broken in NEM as the XAU caved through the recent support having failed at 80, AGAIN. Only hope is left for the bulls, and that hope is that there isn't any momentum behind the decline today.

Looks like a typical sucker rally, today. Metals rise on Iraq concerns and are sold into by better minds. The social unrest in the world has gotten steadily worse in the last 18 years yet gold and silver have declined. Throw that arguement right out the window for dollar based precious metal traders. EVERYBODY and his brother who has ever even heard of a silver stock knows the fundlemental picture regarding the metal. Yet it sits - which is actually pretty good in the face of a deflationary climate. Both those who need the stuff and those who are short are not convinced by a long shot that they have to be in any hurry to load up - in face of dropping supplies - tells me there's plenty of silver out there relative to short term demand at least.

GOLD, SILVER, PLAT, XAU are in long term bear markets - a base may be being formed at this time in GOLD, the XAU and SILVER - BUT there is scant evidence an uptrend exists, yet. Rallies are turned back at lower highs.

The low 70s in the XAU are the next stop. Gold after today's miserable performance is headed back for a test of 288.

These are my observations - made to remind me, if nobody else, that all the well written reasoning for higher metal prices, given the trend, is like the metal gold itself - worth less every time you look at it.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:30 - ID#252150)
Elame Garbagerelli@Was on CNBC & said that the bull mkt has resumed.
She gave several reasons, but not one had to do with fair value. Her main reason is that the MFs are sitting on 5.6% cash & are being forced back into the mkt in order to preserve their jobs. How ridiculous! She's probably right though & a lot will close their eyes & buy at these prices. 98% won't even be close to the S&P.

There's no doubt in my mind that the mkts are being rigged & manipulated
by the analysts in collusion with the Cos & with the PPT as backup. A case in point is Intel. It just hit a new all time high & they are making a huge deal out of the fact that they will exceed expectations for Q4. They never mention that the expectations were scaled down & this Q4 will still be lower than last years. This is the 3rd year in a row that their EPS will be down & yet it hits a new high. It makes no sense, but I'm getting really tired of trying to fight it.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:34 - ID#35757)
Did you ever notice how a candle will burn brightly for a few seconds just before it goes out?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:35 - ID#334219)
Looking for a silver speculation ?

Silver Standard fits the bill. They sure have a mine at Bowdens, Australia. Too bad they lost Lunnoe, Russia.

I also suggest you consider First Silver as the purest silver play and probably the most leverage of all. It went up 3-fold in the last silver run-up.

But for the only current silver speculation that might go up even if silver stay at $5...take a look at Corner Bay Minerals, BAY in Toronto.
They are currently drilling Alamo Dorado in Mexico. Initial results published last August showed a better prospect than SSRIF's Bowdens.
They probably have 15-20 M ounces and tragetting a possible 60M..
But this is a micro-cap...highly illiquid...therefore not suitable for the big shooters.

In the conservative corner, PAASF is the best choice.

Now if we can have silver up !!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:37 - ID#219363)
It's coming. Interesting to read Gollum's link this morning re: inflation. Essentially it said that inflation would be dropping in the states come early 1999 as the labor market pressures subside in the service industry. Translation, some people are going to be losing their jobs, pushing down the price of labor. Deflation.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:38 - ID#286249)
Yes, we have no bananas

Yesterday I posted the BigBananaBanality: on last evening's BBC newscast, Sir Leon Britten, EU's Commissioner, was shown in his office, holding the US official complaint and shaking his head in wonder, saying, "Amazing. Just amazing." Because it is nonsensical you see, this nuclear banana attack. What might be the rational behind the administration's Banana War?

Today's FT headline reads, "US threatens 100% tax on EU exports in banana trade war--The US said yesterday it would impose 100 per cent duties on a range of European products if Europe did not amend its banana import regime by Jan 1, 1999."

Europe is not about to amend "its banana regime". EU officals fear that US policy is being influenced by Carl Lindner, chairman of Chiquita, the US banana company and a large contributor to both US political parties.

So, American citizens will not feel the impact of the new Euro key currency.They will feel the impact of the Banana War. They will-yet again-be doing their bit for "a better world"in Latin America bananas. Does it make you proud?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:39 - ID#35757)
Envy (@James)
Unemployment compensation, lost tax revenue, welfare - Inflation ( not right away, but soon, and for the rest of the century )

Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:40 - ID#212323)
Achetez aux canons, vendez aux clairons...
Your choice is between paper ( stocks and bonds ) and gold. I leave it up to you to conclude which one is suffering the cannons, and which has been heralded with the sound of trumpets.

Such is my advice to you for the day...Buy on the cannons, sell on the trumpets. I think this advice is still valid, even in the age of paper money.

got time?

Remember, markets don't move YOUR way overnight just because you put your chips on the table. See the bigger view.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:41 - ID#365216)
Hecla is a mining company thats been in business over 100 years
and is near or at all time lows ( around 4; highs in the 80's wer
around 26 Ibleive ) . Though they may have alot of bearacracy, they
will be the one to rise when silver does take off just due to their
familiarity with Wall Streeter.

That is all.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:46 - ID#219363)
But that's at the other end of the event horizon. *grin*. We still have to go through a fire sale where everything is 90% off, real estate for next to nothing, dealer subsides, cheap food, etc, but no credit to be found as fear enters the credit markets before we hit all that. The paper is currently being printed and the deal is being struck with a wink and a nod.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 16:54 - ID#153110)
@Rangito @Studio
The 144A plan shares were exempt from the 3 to 1 reverse split per the R* press release. These are "institutional shares". Kind of explains the big block trades post announcment if you ask me. We get 1 ordinary in Joberg for every 3 we bought. They still get one for one. Screwed by Mr Corporation again.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:01 - ID#317193)
Dear John or anyone...URL for RSA share prices.....
Please, a good site to check gold mining shares on the Johannesburg Exchange. TIA


(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:09 - ID#286249)
Picking nits...
1 ) 100% duties on: cheese, paper and board, cosmetics, clothing, electrical goods. However, the list EXCLUDES Scotch whisky, a prime target of previous US retaliation in trade wars with Europe. The omission appears to be a political concession to Britain which, along with France, is the banana regime's strongest EU supporter.

2 ) Schrder pledges strict financial control-Germany's new chancellor, yesterday unveiled his programme for government, pledging stringent control of the state's finances and to create a federal republic of the "new centre" with Berlin as its capital. His two-hour statement to the Bundestag sought to draw a line under a difficult first two weeks in office with promises to promote private pension provision, encourage personal responsibility and concentrate state subsidies and spending on the "truly needy". The speech reflected strongly Mr. Schrder's political pragmatism, with few concessions to traditional Social Democrats or the demand-orientated ideology of Oskar Lafontaine. Mr. Schrder coupled fiscal policy with supply side measures, including deregulation and opening of markets." [excluding bananas SDRer]

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:09 - ID#153110)
Please read my 5:51. USG has conspired with the insolvent banks of the Federal Reserve System to defraud the people of their gold money and liberties. Other Corporations have subscribed to the fraud. We are governed by these fiends by force in defense of fraud. How often have you heard the phrase "good corporate citizen" ? It's a lie. A corporation cannot even be a citizen in law much less good. An American corporation is a fictive person without a conscience, without a family, or a heritage. It is a greed machine not even having the saving grace of genuine greed. American corporations dispense, are fed, and feed on American government paper.

There is nothing feared so much by USG as gold, because discovery of their fraud by the people occupies their guilty dreams.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:14 - ID#229207)
Cargill Inc., the largest privately held company in the United States

Cargill to lay off 30 pct of financial employees
CHICAGO, Nov 11 ( Reuters ) - Cargill Inc., the largest privately held company in the United States, said Wednesday it would lay off 30 percent or approximately 270 employees of its Financial Markets Group, a spokeswoman said.

``We released a plan today to re-size and re-balance our Financial Markets Group portfolio,'' said Lori Johnson, Cargill spokeswoman. ``We are going to continue to offer the same range of products, but we are going to be doing that at a reduced level of activity.''

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:15 - ID#252150)
John D.@Dieppe was probably the most glaring example of the willingness of
the inept, effete British Generals' willingness to sacrifice the Colonials. If I'm not mistaken, Canada lost more troops per capita in WW1 than any other Country in the Commonwealth, including Britian.

Paschendale was another debacle. There is a large memorial/monument there to commemorate the Cdn soldiers who were wiped out by a mustard gas attack. They were the first to die from a gas attack in WW1. Out of 800 only 80 survived.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:21 - ID#286249)
Mozel-5:51Yes. Thank you.
Splashing along in your wake Mozel. Listening and learning.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:23 - ID#288295)
Try this one:

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:24 - ID#43352)
Look out tomorrow!!
Last Thursday and Friday the treasury market got hit big time. Any hedged positions that were long on treasuries lost a bundle. Tuesday we saw the XAU make a pretty good move as gold started to rise. This may be because of some funds that leased gold and used the cash to buy treasuries having to meet margin requirements.

Today we saw that move continue in the morning but run out of steam. This action quite likely due to today being Veteran's day and the bond markets being closed. I presume that means a one day reprieve from the margin.

Tomorrow though the bond markets are open again.

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:30 - ID#33182)
TYoung: At 12:33AM South Africa time!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:34 - ID#286249)
Ah HA! From "The Lex Column" FT Nov 11, 1998

"The dollar's recover from last month's market panic looks to have run into another ambush - the brewing EU-US trade war. This is unlikely to impede its recovery against the yen, but raises fresh questions about its strength against the euro. Normally the dollar/d-mark rate felects interest rate differentials. [Libor-Fed Funds have been 'out-of-kilter' for days SDRer] Currently, these favour the D-Mark/euro as US rates fall wile core European rates remain on hold.

The trade dispute is the new factor: usually Japan is the target of US trade-bashing. But with Europe's current account surplus of a similar size to Japan's, the focus has shifted. The US, like the left in Europe, would like to see a demand stimulus. If it gets it, the European Central Bank will be more likely than ever to stick to its interest rate guns to compensate for easier fiscal policy. If it does not, a protectionist domestic mood will encourage the US to use a weaker dollar to chip away at the sensitive current account deficit. Either way, short-term factors favour the euro. And with the US economy slowing, the stakes can only rise. Longer term, there is also a respectable structural case for the euro being a strong currency.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 17:34 - ID#219363)
Is there a graph somewhere that shows average corporate profits ( or changes to the positive and negative ) for any of the index related stocks, something that shows trends over a year or more ? Thanks.

Go Gold.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 18:19 - ID#210114)
Beaming In....

(Wed Nov 11 1998 18:45 - ID#317193)
Cage Rattler...your up late...nice site and thank you!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 18:45 - ID#219363)
Sure is quiet
On Kitco tonight.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 18:46 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.06. The 233 day moving average is 28.97

(Wed Nov 11 1998 18:52 - ID#32078)
What was the all time high for the Dow/gold ratio.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:00 - ID#288295)
I'n not sure this is what you are seeking, but near the bottom of this link there are some good earnings charts:Market Gauge Charts

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:02 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .261. The 233 day moving average is .248

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:06 - ID#26793)
The all time high from my 108 years of data was 31.82 on July 16, 1998.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:07 - ID#210114)
Still a Bear I'm Afraid
The muted response to the ECB's increase in gold reserves confirms that the bear is still in.

Had a rumour appeared that the gold reserves were to fall, the POG would have fallen $5 an ounce. Rumour of increase is greated with..... nothing.

Once again good news is being ignored and bad news is being jumped upon.

Confirms that the bear is still in.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:08 - ID#290456)

or is it my system? I've been locked out most of today.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:11 - ID#210114)
No, its not you. Kitco is SSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWWWWW today.

L L a P

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:11 - ID#194311)
silverbaron...Kitco not slow...
but there seems to be a problem completing loading, I suspect a bug with the auto price load on frames but who knows. After waiting for a short while press the STOP button on your browser and it'll finish loading most of everything necessary.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:16 - ID#290172)
Silverbaron--I'm awondering if it isn't the net itself?
Two ISP's and the mail isn't getting through on either one?
Hitting the "Stop" works well for Kitco. Thanks. {:- )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:21 - ID#72206)
Rememberance day
Nice touch to remembering the horrors of war today--- During the 2 minute silence we got to hear the shills , Tony Blair und Herr Clinton pounding their collective war drums ....


(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:28 - ID#290172)
How GOLD RESERVES are set--

Here, hidden away in a paragraph, is HOW gold reserves are set:

"Foreign currency reserves increased considerably since the introduction of the currency board. The basis was formed by the restitution of historical gold reserves by Western central banks in 1991. At present levels, however, the reserves cover less than three months of imports."

So, a country is to hold in reserve enough gold to cover X months of imports ( more than three )
The above paragraph:Agenda 2000-- Next : B.2.2. The Economy in the Perspective of Membership
B. Criteria for Membership
2. Economic Criteria [the country being discussed is Estonia]

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:32 - ID#263456)
@Kiwi...the Kitco slow loading

or inability to complete loading is also on the non-frames stop key does wonders...but on no stop key and I have to just wait it out...eventually it completes loading...PIA...NO ROYAL PIA.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:35 - ID#210114)
Beaming Up Now......
Slow day today at Kitco.

Catch you all again tommorrow. I bet you can't wait.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:35 - ID#32078)
Short term trading

Please don't discourage Cyclist from posting his inputs since they are relative to daytime activity and I appreciate another opinion of what happening from a very short term aspect of the market. I find it possible to see the market in gold stocks fluctuate during the day as the XAU, TSE, JSE, London and COMEX gold prices all change with the news. Some stocks don't change much but have huge volumes, while some change quickly with very little volume. Watching ABX, PDG, BMG, HM, and NEM bounce around and bid/ask prices change allows the flexible investor to take advantages of opportunities if he has a good feel for the market. One thing I've learned is not to fight the XAU trend because it drives most others eventually. Come on in, the water's fine.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:41 - ID#253153)
No prosperity is possible until the US dollar is backed by gold
In today's floating currencies world, chaos has been the order of the day.
Gold has been used to back currencies for the last 5000 years. The people of the world have always attached great value to gold and silver and I doubt that it will ever change. No one really knows what currencies are worth today and the cunfusion of it all will lead to the down fall of the politicians who sponsered that confusion. The purpose of a major depression is to wipe out debt as well as to force politicians to back our currency by gold. Why is it that people have to suffer because the politician don't understand what needs to be done ? I'm predicting a devastating depression which will start in Q1-2 of 1999. Since markets anticipate events 6 months in advance, I do believe the gold bottom is in
and we are currently in a slow gold bull trend which will accelerate forward as we progress in time. I have been calling for a runaway deflationary phase since Feb 1998 and I do believe we are beginning to experience it NOW.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:45 - ID#290456)

I wondered the same thing today....couldn't get on Kitco,, and several others. Perhaps kiddy traffic to porno sites on the holiday is clogging the arteries? ( ;^ ) )

Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:45 - ID#212323)
If you are poking around near Estonia, then surely you have discovered that the Latvian lats is "worth" more than the British pound, nearly two US dollars--and hence worthy of inclusion in your top four of last night.

Ballpark... 1 XDR = .7997 lats, with 162.6 lats buying 1oz.XAU

Regards, my industrious friend.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 19:59 - ID#119358)
@mOzel.........presumably (hee!)........three Joburg R* shares now equal.......
one Nasdaq ADR; the institutions own "single" Joburg shares, not ADR's. We ( USers ) own ADR's, which may be pared back to being equal to one Joburg share sometime in the unimagineable future. I should live so long. I have yet to figure this all out...excepting I know I lost a chunk'o'ass on da' deal!

BTW, I am still working on my moon walk, although it currently resembles a ratzo rizzo spasm, there's still a chance I can pull it off.

Always my best to YA!!! you're amazin' man.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:07 - ID#290172)
Auric-OK, OK! I'm putting it in the list!

Do you own their central bank by any chance?
And if you do, you could tell me WHAT the historical standard for gold reserve holdings might have been? In all my readings, I had not come across that before!

Seriously, it wasn't a list as suchjust carefully checking the SDR runs and happened to notice that there were a number of quiet little currencies that were worth more than the MIGHTY dollarin SDR terms.
And SDR terms is were a LOT of CORPORATE accounting is done.
Interesting, yes? {:- )

Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:08 - ID#212323)
StudiO.r --hellO!
I'm heading Out intO the dark. Just thOught I'd say "Hey!," seeing yOu arrive as I ease On Out the dOOr.

ThOse share things yOu play with frOm time tO time...brOther, I dO hate it when they bite! Rub gOld in the wOund, my friend.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:09 - ID#43460)
Envy re quiet Kitco night
IMHO there may be 2 reasons. First there seems to be a general internet slowdown with long waits in general. Second that moron in the White House has announced that his Iraq policy is a total failure and he's preparing to bomb them. Kitcoites may be gathering news and faxing their brokers with urgent oil future trades.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:10 - ID#290172)
Aragorn III--Auric' s message was meant for you! Sorry!
the mind is goooooiiiiinnnng...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:13 - ID#119358)
@all's swell........jazz and conversation, uhHuH....
until the sun comes through the sky light....absorbing spirited tonal particles of Donald Fagen ( the genius of S. Dan ) ....and dreaming'O'gold, myOmy. an old lover dressed in grey........

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:14 - ID#290202)
...Kebble game plan???... looks like...
...Take care of the Big Boys ( 144A's ) ; screw the individual ADR holders;

and, LAST BUT MOST IMPORTANT: snap up the cheap shares!!! ( "buying

all he can, as they are available" "at 4R".... per PB's site ) .. thanks Mozel, for that 144A

piece of this SORDID puzzle. Would someone tell Mr Kebble that "you

reap what you sow."

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:15 - ID#45173)
Correct on both counts. There are some pop snags today, internet is slow. And the US has gotten itself cornered into a military showdown with Iraq. Clearly this is what they want. This makes me very nervous. Are they ready? If so, how are they aready?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:16 - ID#267276)
just a couple of items I came across today.

Ganns 30 and 60 year cycle. Commodities bottommed in 1968 and 1939.

Russian Nov 17 is the end of the russian 90 day debt moratorium.On august 17,1998 the russian government declared a 90 day moratorium for demestic banks payments in favor of foreign banks. This moratorium allows local banks to not pay any obligation or debts to the foreigners.
Why they set the moratorium?
Because of all top russian banks was unable to pay margin calls on their long positions on russian gov. external debt bonds. This bond fell more than 50% but russian banks expose to them was several times their equity, some banks had positions on their books of amounts five times larger than banks capital. After announcement of moratorium the russian rouble fell from 6.3 roubles per US dollar to 16, but russian banks short october and nov dollars at 7 rub/$. Russian banks dollar/rouble forward expose to foreigners is approx 40-50 billion US$. So if Rub/$ rate remains at 16 on nov 17, 1998 russians will lose 22.5 billion US$. But banks already lost all of their equity on bonds. Russian government is seeking money now, but seems no one in the world will to them. So on Nov 17, 1998 russian banking sector will be BANKRUPT and foreign creditors will not receive their money. Why is this important for the Dow? Because the fear of other emerging economies will default and Latin American debt market will be hunted. ( This was copied from a post on Longwaves originating from someone named Arturs Plaud )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:18 - ID#190411)
Try hitting escape key. On a browser, it's the same as stop button.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:20 - ID#317193)
A simple solar generator...I'm no G&Der but this is fun to put together...

Wal-Mart has almost all the stuff.

Gold, got the metal and ready for the shares...@$285 or $305...boring lately.


Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:22 - ID#212323)
SDRer...I've noticed that same difficulty on a number of other occasions. You are not alone!
I think your question is loaded without you realizing it...asking, "could you tell me WHAT the historical standard for gold reserve holdings
might have been?"

Now you see, we have two histories. In one history gold was clearly the money. "What was the bank's standard for holding money," you ask? ( BIG smile! )

In this more recent's an independent business decision, unless an organization is joined that requires X amount for membership. why would anyone go a do a thing like that?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:23 - ID#237299)
From my end, packets getting lost at SSI net ( this for Kitco ) , but pings or traces elsewhere have Cable & Network USA burping, also CAIS, Earthlink ( down for a days? weeks? ) and Root Nameservers-D,G,K having problems.

My own paranoid observation is that on Dow-up days or during Dow-up tick periods server speed is like lightning "Yes Mammm!, we'll have you the grrrreat news in 2 milliseconds or less!" But on down ticks or Dow-down days servers suck. This makes no sense from traffic, since trades are as likely to be accelerating on up-swings as down---but this is what I notice over and over again.

And since I have noticed this, If I go to log on to NASDAQ and it begins to come up relly fast I know the dow is up- and it always is. Conversly if I have to reload the page 5 times to get it to complete, I know the market is going very red- and so far this has proven out.

Could the Great Oz not wish bad news to propagate?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:24 - ID#288230)

i'm heading to the us capitol in just a few minutes...
for the first time no-less......wonder what i'll see.....

am really nervous about being 'here' during these times.....
wondering about it the brave could fall........
and to have a commander in chief as now..........................

makes this brave to those who
deserve know who you are....and chop-asaki to those
who deserve know who you are.....who are you? the who.....


(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:28 - ID#119358)
@AragOrn3....oh yes, and a large kimOsabeO to YA!!!.... share.....aye, to give.... to give away one's arse for a bit'O'paper....perchance, to enjoy the warmth of the paper's brief fire..that is all I ask in return. I am assless, now....and cold.

Be brief in your travels unto the dark tonight, my friend...return...we shall burn more paper and the sparks will be our stars...and rum will warm our bellies.

Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:28 - ID#212323)
Hmmmmmmmmmm.....very interesting.
2nd straight day gold has moved UP in Sydney. What has happened to the gravity that land has previously demonstrated so well?

gone for real...

Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:32 - ID#212323)
And so it shall be as you say. The pint shall be raised in your direction this evening. sit for friends who no longer can!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:35 - ID#119358)
@cherOkee y aragOrn3.....
vayan con Dios, amigos!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:38 - ID#347457)
@larryn & cyclist (on short term trading)
larryn, Cyclist - I am sorry if my post came across as trying to discourage Cyclist from posting his short term predictions. That was not my intention, and by all means, Cyclist please keep posting your predictions. I really meant it when I said that I admire anybody who can analyze charts and predict what will happen. I really believe in trends and cycles in market.

However, I have a hard time to believe that you can accurately predict movement of stock ( or index ) in short intervals ( e.g., 15 min, hour, etc. ) . Sure, there are trading cycles during the day. E.g., first hour after opening when traders are taking positions, early afternoon when orders from clients who called in during lunch hours are executed, late afternoon when traders are making decision in what position they want to start next day. However, it is impossible to predict ( without having the insider information ) some events outside the short trend ( e.g., some large fund or wealthy investor decides to sell/buy a large block of stocks ) . This may throw your prediction ( based on studying charts ) totally off. That was all what I was trying to say - I am not convinced ( yet ) that you can do it accurately.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:39 - ID#290202)
Whence goeth the price of oil twixt now and a fortnight? ( and let not your
great love for the illustrious WhiteHouseMan color your cogitations.. )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:50 - ID#273432)

Hmmmmmm.....7+ years to disperse their soldiers, with their vials of fairy dust and suitcases of nuclear's not smart to corner a wounded animal.

Could be a hell of a way to make gold go up, eh?

Bill El Zebub
(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:51 - ID#261352)
re Elaine Garzarelli's comments on the bull resumption....The crash will not
come until bullish sentement is the norm.Time for the feces to
strike the oscillating blades. IMHO. Your fiend Bill.XXXOOO

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:52 - ID#31868)
Phony Tony Blair and Herr Clintler are white trash...It is time to throw
out the garbage...two leaderless countries...the two countries most wanting to bomb Iraq...yet one more leaderless country...three of jack's most prolific asses...wothless one and all...playing with the lives of their own more no less...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:54 - ID#119358)'O'red..........
oil can only go up from moves now to float upon a river of my tears. I deeply regret each earthly molecule which I have delivered into the greedy hands of this cowardly man'O'war, this whimpering dog who daily craps and spews yellow upon our house of white. salud to YA!!!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 20:55 - ID#219363)
I suspect that you can make plays in that short of a time, a few minutes or hours. I don't know how to do it, but I'm pretty confident that you can. Biggest reason is that Cyclist would have gotten bored with short-term trading if he wasn't making money doing it *smile*.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:04 - ID#284255)
Swing chart

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:13 - ID#219363)
Where do you think we're headed ?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:15 - ID#45173)
Assuming you are correct and he is ready to use so-called terrorist force ( as if launching cruise missiles from the sea isn't a form of terror ) , he'd have to do it in such a way as to deter the counter-attack that the US has promised, to "obliterate Iraq."

Or is the whole game designed to help his short positions on Wall Street.

Who knows. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:16 - ID#72206)
Those countries aren't leaderless, xon, oxy, shell, ( Aramco ) are leading this battle way you become pres or prime if you don't dance to their tune

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:18 - ID#254321)
Where's that oil?
StudioR: Where have you been hoarding the 100million plus barrels of oil that seems to be missing from the official numbers keepers? I can't figure out whether it is a hoax, or a hoard.

On a more serious basis -- any idea why Oil's been going down recently if we are about to pound some sand in Iraq? As someone just said today, Saddam's soldiers have had over 7 years to spread out -- could be some are in the US. Would be interesting to see what WJC would do if Saddam tried the nuclear blackmail gambit -- don't think I'd really want to find out. Saddam certainly can't entrap WJC with the Mata Hari approach, or the movies of a compromising position, can he? I think Kenneth Starr has all the evidence already!

Hope you are enjoying your Veteran's day holiday.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:20 - ID#72206)
or like JFK or Saddam Husein you change your mind midstream, then youse in deep doo doo

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:21 - ID#390337)
@cherokee - Welcome to my backyard
Are you coming for a stroll on the mall? Lotsa gold related sites available.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:26 - ID#317211)
Slow day at Kitco, amigos.
The crowd is sparse. The bull, he is dazed, no?
Wave upon wave of the Picadors have lanced him
with drug-tipped spears... for 18 years.

Our Golden bull, he bleeds profusely and only now
is catching his breath. His own blood matters not,
for his heart, it is huge.

The Picadors now retreating, and thru misty eyes,
he spies a red cape... and the creature beyond

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:26 - ID#219363)
Brazil in Looming Collapse
In the meantime, peril draws closer. After the $30 billion fiscal austerity was announced, funds have continued to leave Brazil at a rate of $1 billion per day. It is questionable that Brazil can weather such bloodletting with its shrinking foreign reserves, so it appears there is a strong likelihood that the Brazilian debt bubble will burst in the few remaining weeks and months of 1998. When that happens, the rest of Ibero America will follow and shockwaves will be felt across the world.

@Silverbaron: Thanks for the link!

The net is a big doggy dog tonite.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:29 - ID#43349)
US "likely" to cut Fed funds rate

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:31 - ID#273432)

I have to sign off, but found a challenge for you at the following site:

The Enterprise Mission - Physics Lab

I would be interested in what you think of this....

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:32 - ID#254321)
Forgot Saddam's shorts on the Equity markets
EJ: How obvious! Saddam lets us spend billions on our Aircraft carriers, and other equipment while he moves some missles about. When the markets get nervous, he closes his shorts, and puts the missles back into hiding.

And crisis over. He makes a profit -- at our expense.

Would be nice to believe that this is all he is up to. I have a sneaking suspicion that he has a martyr complex -- for the 'Arab cause'. With real focus on Israel if we slip up and do something silly. The last thing we can afford to do is make it look to the outside world like he is the underdog, and we are the aggressor. We should never forget that he is better at manipulating us than we are at manipulating him in a prolonged confrontation. I'm not so sure he is that 'easy' enemy we say he is. An enemy need not be as strong we are -- it just needs to be able to strike at a weak point -- or in an unexpected manner.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:35 - ID#373403)
Market crash indicator
Just saved up some more dry powder to invest in BEARX. Sent the check to the broker today so funds will be available to invest in three days. There is an excellent chance that the market will crash in the next few days before I can buy in at the bottom.

This has never failed yet.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:36 - ID#31868)
arby, Namaste' gulp and a puff to light of the situation now thrust upon the USA
due to the inept handling of the Iraq situation from day one...this has become a farce...a sick...deadly theatre of the absurd...three Presidents and a host of the revolving dirtbags in the State Department...the rot of their collective stupidity will come home to roost in the very real form of body bags containing the remains of our fine young men and women who put themselves in harms ways...

Be forwarned that the US military is nothing it was a mere 6 years ago...and keep a keen eye on and ear open to the stupidity of the jack's asses in the media with their fatuous remarks...

got gumption?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:37 - ID#190411)
I am no chartreader, but sharefin's swing chart seems easy enough to check.
I noted the major ups and downs, and they correlate very strongly with SnP chart.
Do you know whether this is a fix it as you go, or is it an historical plot only?
If it is strictly a plot of historical factors, then it appears that your puts will a'be puttin' at high speed.
Also, Kaplan, who has been right about a good deal lately, is nearly soiling his pants. He didn't exactly say to buy puts, as he did in July, but, he is not reticent about it, either.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:39 - ID#430236)
NASDAQ NEW HIGHS... Dell, Internet stocks, MU...

Here is a link showing remarkable number of DAILY NEW HIGHS on the Nasdaq ...... This is suggesting a very strong, broad based bull market... ....not!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:39 - ID#219363)
The Road to Retirement City
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha. That has to be the funniest thing I've read in weeks, and the map included in the article just kills me. ROTFL'ing.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:45 - ID#356379)
General, I agree that Hecla ( NYSE: HL ) is a good investment vehicle for silver. I would also suggest that it's relative strength compared to other NA PM stocks is due to its additional production of gold and some base metals like zinc and nickel.

It is a great cyclical play, often moving in quick 50% bursts on good volume. I expect it to rally above $6 in the next few weeks as we get closer to the Euro's January debut.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:47 - ID#119358)
the disinformation concerning oil production capabilities and inventories, etc. is effectively and intentionally incomplete. Most reporting entities fail to report or frequently submit erroneous numbers, believe it or not. Futures market manipulations are another another source of analytical interference. All this to say, the supply "scare" will hit suddenly, not only without warning, but it will simply contradiction to all that is "known" by the markets. CherOkee is right, the great hoOpas is making its turn in flight.

best wishes to you also, mi amigO....each day your thoughts fill my mind with great admiration.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:53 - ID#390337)
@Bart - please fix
on this page. It is the blocking culprit.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:54 - ID#45173)
That was a really odd piece on rate cuts. I counted two good reasons to cut rates and three good reasons not to, and the conclusion is that rates are likely to be cut. Either the reporter is confused or the ex-Fed was unclear, or both.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 21:58 - ID#284255)
American bumper sticker in the 60's
"The One Who Dies with Most Toys Wins"

A little list of prohibited items into Iraq

Voices in the Wilderness

Government control in the Year Zero

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:00 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff to you...having had the time now to do it...
just reach under you seat and you will find a Tap with a continuous supply of your favorite drink...cuba.libres...OyeahO...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:07 - ID#390337)
y2k beancounters got your thinking caps on?
Are y2k software and hardware remediation efforts a capitalized expense? If not, then companies which will inevitably get squeezed in the next market downturn, will not be so eager to watch their EBIDTA go through the roof to save their hides in 2000. That is the result of the sorry state of the stock market and the tax code. Fixing for the future counts for naught. Now, I wan't to know what your doing for me now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, get gold.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:08 - ID#320136)
My name is Jan, and I am a kitcoholic!
Greetings, one and all. Am expecting to get my
hands on some dry powder beginning of January --
what are the chances that I can add to existing
position in goldstox, BEFORE the bull gathers
steam? Don't want to miss the launch.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:11 - ID#237260)
From AOL;

What is Post of the Day??
Nominate a Post

From Our Web Communion of Bears Folder
November 11, 1998

Posts selected for this feature rarely stand alone. They are usually a part of an ongoing thread, and are out of context when presented here. The material should be read in that light.

Subject:Re: Beta


Look, my take on it this. gold is a commodity, with SPECIAL characteristics. i think a good analogy is zero coupon bonds. zero's are a specific type of bond that has certain characteristics, ie, they don't pay interest, so price moves in zeros are highly correlated with the overall bond market but the moves tend to lead the broad curve and to be more highly exaggerated. gold is similar in the commodities realm. contrary to what the survivalists say, it is not money, per se, but it does have this special quasi-monetary role because of its rarity, its metallurgical properties, and simply tradition ( which is nothing to scoff at, as there is a very well defined market for it and hence it has a great deal of liquidity for people who want to buy/sell it ) . it is much more durable and liquid than say, hog bellies, in the int'l marketplace.

After all, any commodity can be openly bartered and traded for another commodity or for real estate or for money, gold is not uniquely endowed with value. for example, i could take a crate of bananas and trade them to a local restauranteur for apples, or money, or a few pancakes just as easily as a $5 golden eagle.

Gold IS different than copper or moly or aluminum because [1] it is rarer, and [2] the demand side of the equation is primarily due to hoarding rather than industrial fabrication. again, these are special characteristics that gold has, so its price does move differently than the base metals. you have to keep these in mind when looking at the metal as an "investment" but in the end, imho, it is just a unique niche within the metals sector which is itself a niche within the broad commodities market. which is why it amazes me that people interested in it don't spend more time charting/investigating the BLS raw materials index or the CRB index.

What i'm saying is that yes, gold and wool and oil and wheat could be in a bull phase while copper is mired in a bear phase. sure, that COULD happen. there is nothing necessarily linking copper and gold and wheat and pulp paper. but it is unlikely that moly, aluminum, nickel, and tin could all be in a bull-phase while copper is in a bear phase. that would be an unlikely thing to happen.

Back to gold, if you take the $35, early 1933 rooseveltian peg, and adjust the price for CPI inflation, you get $264.82 in 1998 dollars using numbers from the Conference Board database that i have on my bookshelf. so yes, gold has maintained its value vis a vis consumer product inflation over the years. but the real value is in the common stocks, and occasionally the senior debt, of the better mining co's . that way you get the 3% inflation return, you also get a cut of the annual profits in the form of a dividend to the tune of 2-3%/year, and if you can invest in a company that can grow its production 1-3%/year over time, and you add up the pieces, guess what? you get 75 to 150 basis points better long term than 20 year bonds. ( i guess the market isn't so inefficient in the long term afterall ) . but in no way can you torture the numbers of a group of common stocks in the major mining producers to get an above S&P 500 average return long term. sorry, you can make the big money in the exploration stage and development co's ( you can also lose big in these too ) but torture the numbers all you want you're not going to get above average LTBH results with these mining co's. so like the CRB, this is an area for trading, not LTBH.

OTOH, as long as the world economy keeps expanding, there is a case to be made that the demand for gold will continue to rise proportionally and people will pay guys like me to figure out how to get the stuff out of the ground, although fwiw, as Newmont pointed out in their last quarterly press conference, there isn't a pressing need to risk capital life and limb to get the stuff out of the ground and sell it to you all at 290. but, as i've said before, the street ( and many players here ) have a very short fuse while the unfortunate reality is that busts in mining, can be very PROLONGED and DEEP. way beyond the typical trading desk timescale. i personally know several people who bought two story, 5000 square feet+ well built masonary houses in Butte in 83 and 84 ON THEIR CREDIT CARDS. and let me tell ya, cash advance limits back then were not nearly as high as they are today, capeche?


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:12 - ID#45173)
China mad about US policy toward Taiwan, again
The Pollyanna view is that China and Taiwan will come together peacefully in the near future. China wants this, but Taiwan is determined to remain indepenent. The only reason China has not taken Taiwan by force is that Taiwan is too strong for China to attack. They are armed to the teeth. And in case anyone forgets from two years ago when China was rattling sabers over Taiwanese democratic elections, Taiwan released these images to the world press to let the Chinese and the world know the Taiwanese are ready to tough it out.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:13 - ID#284255)
Either higher or lower. Just kidding.

Watching the wing, tick and vix all turning at the moment.
All convince me we are just entering the next selling cycle.

We are either in a bull in which case the selling should be contained within a rising market.
Or we are in a bear and the sellers should soon be starting to get nervous, and the market should sell off.
We should either see one or the other.

Before in the bull when the swing topped out like this,
We would only be half way up the bull leg.
And distribution would take place into a rising market.

This time I'm not so sure we're in a bull anymore.
If this is so then I'd expect the sellers to come out over the next week - in force.
Which would then confirm the bear. - watch out below.

Of course my respect for the PPT is growing.
What will they do to stem the tide.

So even though the swing has topped and now is heading down,
I would like to see confirmation of bull or bear.
If the sellers come out then to me the answer would be bear.
And I would expect a damn big bear.

This could well be the last high we'll see for a long long time.
This time next year everyones going to be a bear - Y2k.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:13 - ID#119358)
@T#1..........un GulpO y dos PuffOs to YA!!!
for as long as this river'O'rum flows to the sea, so shall our hope spring eternally. salud maximus to YA!!! y me Mumm!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:17 - ID#159145)
Chas @ Hatt
Hi Guys. Just recieved an email re:Claimstaker from Global minerals. They are really high on the stock. It makes for interesting Reading.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:20 - ID#300202)
freerepublic-latest 20 posts
Subject:The Spark that Ignites the Revolution. Is this post for real???
If it is-Merkans-get ur ass out. Shakin' my head while goin fer a refill. Long Island T1-Comments?
Naaah-say it's not real.

Greenstone Gold
(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:22 - ID#428232)
JP (No prosperity is possible until the US dollar is backed by gold)

Well said Sir.......

Long has man travellled in the realms of gold.

"Nature herself makes it clear that the production of gold is laborious, the guarding of it difficult, the zest for it very great, and its use balanced between pleasure and pain". Diodorus Sirculus, first century BC

It is a fine line between success and failure, GOLD presently treads that line, but it cannot fail !

"Gold is the most equisite of all things....whoever possesses gold can acquire all that he desires in this world. Truely, for gold can he gain entrance for his soul into paradise". Christopher Columbus, 1500.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:22 - ID#284255)
Something to go with the still

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:25 - ID#284255)
Obsidian (Sloooow:)
Last night was terrible for a few hours.
Many pipes dropping out.
All over the place.
Glitches I presume.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:27 - ID#254321)
Hyperdimensional Physics!
SilverBaron: Thanks! It appears Richard Hoagland has been busy since I last surfed his site. Too bad he displays his pages in black, which means I cannot peruse his words at length without losing all the images.

On a quick scan, I can tell you I have James Clerk Maxwell's original two volumes on Electromagetism, and E.T. Whittaker's two articles on a 'scalar' formulation of same. These two fellows as you undoubtedly know are very well respected members of the Physics community - -though deceased. Their work does indeed suggest forgotten paths of future research, though probably not as dramatic as R. Hoagland or Tom Bearden would have you believe.

Richard Hoagland is correct that there is much to be said about Hyperdimensional physics, and Michio Okakku is a legitimate Physicist who knows about such things. Michio Okakku has said -- IHMO -- as I recall -- that time travel and interdimensional travel is possible, provided that you had a civilization that could finely manipulate energy at a 100x or 1000x higher level than we do now. Currently we have the raw energy release, say in a nuclear explosion -- but he is referring to moulding that energy in a constructive manner. Imagine a time travelling spacecraft that requirs 10 kiltons of nuclear energy for every second of its flight. No -- I am not talking about project Orion. I would guess at the minimum that we would also need computers with millions of times the computing capacity of our current ones -- to virtually manipulate atoms.

I do not find Richard Hoagland, or Tom Bearden anywhere as easy to understand as the others I have listed above. Tom Bearden as I recall is a former US Government information officer, and is undoubtedly a master at disinformation. I have read much of Tom Bearden's work initially with much interest, until I realized that there were big holes in his logic. The same with Richard Hoagland.

On the positive side, I suspect that both Richard Hoagland and Tom Bearden know something from their work for the US Government, and are not allowed to disclose it ( or they do not understand it in its entirety ) .

Hence they behave as if they know something is true -- some new and wonderful phenomenon -- but their explanations of the phenomena are wanting. Just as if they were trying to 'reverse engineer' something they knew about -- but not enough to explain coherently to a physicist. Or to reproduce it. I have yet to see a working model of one of Tom Bearden's theoretical devices. The Overunity motors -- Wankel, and Takahashi -- probably do work -- but these are not his inventions.

Another pattern I see in what Richard Hoagland has done is put together a patchwork of possibly related bits of information and build a story about hyperdimensional physics -- based on what he perceives hyperdimensional physics is. By the way -- the bit about Jupiter releasing more energy than it gets from the Sun -- may not be that exciting at all -- it is thought to be a failed star. But in defense of Richard Hoagland, if there is a hyperdimensional physics, it is entirely likely that the Sun ( and Jupiter ) have a source of energy that is not local in the classical sense -- that the Solar furnace is not what we think it is. How would we know? We can't easily do measurements inside the Sun -- except possibly with Neutrinos.

So -- I take what I see on this site - with a grain of salt. But -- I will continue to peruse this site and others like it for pieces of a story that I hope to understand one day myself!

Hope everyone enjoys this. The Universe is a wilder place than we can ever imagine ( plagiarizing Shakespeare ) !

Charles Keeling
(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:28 - ID#344225)
@ ENVY RE: The Road To Retirementville
It was a gas, gas, gas. There should have been a bypass
over recessionville, and depressionville without having to
jump the ramp by asset lake. This bypass should have been
named the Golden/Silver bypass.

I loved it. With the current set of charts now available,
is very appropriate. Looks to me like the last wave has
just about crested, and it's all down from here.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:28 - ID#119358)
@T#1...edit......I can do better than 'dat.........
( remix ) For as long as this river'O'rum flows into me, so shall my hope spring eternally. uhHuH....I fear haste, it loosens my touch.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:32 - ID#411259)
..... Yawn .....

Walter Croncite recently explained his theory for why we seem so bored with the space program. I still remember the stars in his eyes when a human first stepped on the moon ( hush Mozel, the footprints are still there I have seen them ) . He was like a little kid.

Anyway, he said the we have lost interest because it has become so routine, NASA ( apart from the rare fireball every decade or so ) has made space travel an everyday event. We soon grow uninterested in what we see everyday, just more of the same.

Cruise missiles and B52s raining hell from above onto poor parched Iraq will not cause gold to rise.

Bombing Saddam has become routine.

Would that it were not so.

And would that it may never need to be so again.

Let's squash this bug ( Not you Lurking Silver Bug methinks you are unsquashable )


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:35 - ID#411259)
..... JTF .....

Could you post a URL for the Richard Hoagland site?

Thanky Indeedy

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:37 - ID#295111)
German/Italian SURVEY on Gold Reserves
This comes from the World Gold Council Web site. I extracted one survey question only.

SOFRES - Taylor Nelson, Europe's largest opinion research firm,
conducted a survey of public attitudes concerning central bank gold
reserves among 1000 adults in each of three European countriesFrance,
Germany and Italy. The respondents were questioned by telephone during
July 1998, and the samples reflect the general demographic profile of each
country. ( Results are correct to within 5 percentage points. )

Question TO GERMANS:
In fact, over 31% of the
reserve holdings that
support the DM consist of
gold. Do you think that
Germany should maintain
this level of gold reserves,
increase it or decrease it?

Maintain: 62%
Increase: 18%
Decrease: 9%
( Don't know/no opinion ) : 11%

In fact, 31% of the reserve
holdings that support the
Lira are made up of gold. Do
you think that Italy should
maintain this level of gold
reserves, increase it or
decrease it?

Maintain: 50%
Increase: 38%
Decrease: 6%
NA: 2%


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:39 - ID#343215)
Buy some Gold little ones
Come on now. If you all would just aspire to buy at least a hundred ounces and keep it forever, probably would put the squeeze over top as well as give you and your family actual security to pass on down through next generation like other countries. It's a matter of belief not talk. A lbit at a time but get there. THEN play the leverage game as in stocks or whatever. And on that matter buy the seniors quit being so smart and losing your money the seniors will always go first and not blow you up with the downside surprise. then leverage from this to the more agressive positions This will orchestrate the cause and give some definition to what we all hope and talk about as well agree is beast for the real world by showing the way by demostration of real value with the word GOLD

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:39 - ID#45173)
Your post on gold reminds me of a running debate I have with an old friend who believes he's much better off owning a derivative that hedges risk than a commodity that's supposed to hedge against risk but actually doesn't in a lot of cases.

What's interesting about this argument is that you can substitute the words "paper currency" for "gold" and the argument is still plausible. Try it with the piece you posted.

The value of gold as money is based on faith and rarity, just as the value of dollars is based on faith and theoretical rarity. You can't make your own gold and you can't make your own currency. The difference is that governments can create paper currency at the speed of light ( used to be restricted to the speed of a printing press ) but can't create gold any more than you or I can. Currencies can lose value in a very short period whereas the gold can never lose value so quickly. A fact that helps explain why gold increases in value relative to the currencies when excessive amounts of currency are created.

TheMissingLink made a very astute point this evening. Relative to currencies during the past few months of turmoil, gold has been the most stable money around.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:43 - ID#237299)
Sharfin: about slow.
Usually, when I try to access your it takes 26 hops to get there, and it stalls at a node called bordercore2 in Vienna, Va- which shoots it directly *back* across the country to bordercore4 in San Francisco ( another stall ) before eventually getting to Sydney. ( by the way, this all begins in Arizona )

I have yet to discover the nature of these nodes but I take their name at face value. So I imagine the computers of the beast eye your subversive swing charts with interest. ;- )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:45 - ID#254321)
Logging Off!
sharefin: I think the return to the US bear is not yet -- but the evidence seems overwhelming that the current market bull cannot last more than a month or so -- given our recent liquidiy crunch and the resulting echoes in the economy, and the pending falloff in consumer goods purchases. However, looks like US Christmas sales will be still be lively this year --

I am still heavily invested in defense and gold stocks -- I was thinking things would go up for another week at least -- I figure the longer I hang in there, the better chance I have of catching the wave. But I don't want to get caught in Ping III either!

I think the wild card is Kenneth Starr's testimony beginning around Nov 17. I think that is the last thing the Dems would want, as he could talk about opinions, not facts -- for the first time. And -- he will be under oath -- and much more likely to tell the truth than anyone from the Whitehouse. It is so easy to forget that much of our market rally has been during a time when impeachment activity was intentionally played down. WJC may be underestimating what he is up against -- IMHO.

Happy market surfing!

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:45 - ID#119358)
Greatest Gratitude to All Living, where you be here or up there, Veterans!!! We thank you forever.

nytol. ( copyright teddO )

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:49 - ID#31868)
What Clintler has done we have not yet begun to pay for...nope...only the beginning

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:52 - ID#30345)
3 solid pics

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:53 - ID#411259)
..... EJ Quoted .....

TheMissingLink as writing, "Relative to currencies during the past few months of turmoil, gold has been the most stable money around."

This is not to start the old argument again, but nowhere, anywhere, is gold used as money.

Since gold is traded everywhere in US dollars, this stated stability is an illusion. Gold has fallen with the rise of the dollar, and risen against virtually every other currency on earth.

I fail to see the stability.


(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:56 - ID#339274)
I feel not slighted at all by your remarks.
The only succes we have is profit,and sometimes we slip on over confidence.Like a surfer..
Today I was ambivalent to go short on the gold ,I contravened
my timing model staying long with NEM due to the strength of Platinum.
at the close and other conflicting signals i.e. low volume.
We'll see what happens ,bond s look they going south after having
closed the gap.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:57 - ID#254321)
One last post
RJ: Richard Hoagland is reachable at the Enterprise site, posted below by SilverBaron 21:31 today. It is interesting reading, but hard to piece together the puzzle into a coherent story. If you want to get wrapped up in this, I would also suggest Tom Bearden's site, which is more mathematical -- I don't have it anymore but one those supersearch sites should find it. Try 'overunity' if Tom Bearden does not work.

One word of warning, though, what you read is probably incomplete and misleading -- but there is important information there for those who are patient enough to wade through it. I am still learning this approach to Web surfing -- where information/noise content can be very low -- per site. I am used to nearly 100% S/N ratio in the Physics literature.

But on the other hand the WebSurfing has been very rewarding -- with Kitco being one of the discoveries.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 22:58 - ID#45173)
I was referring to volatility. The dollar lost 13% in 48 hours last month. When has gold dropped $38 in 48 hours?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:00 - ID#45173)
Excellent refresher site on the Gulf War
Very comprehensive. Only criticism is that it doesn't talk about Iraqi casualties.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:02 - ID#249244)
JTF@Oil and Saddam's role in history...
Oil is not up and nobody seems to be scared...

If the U.S. wanted Saddam dead...he would be dead.
It's not a rocket science to figure out that the U.S.
does not want Saddam dead...means this next LOUD WAR
ACTION is not for fighting, its for selling and buying..
I mean it's for talking and keeping people
keeping soldiers busy by ordering them to clean and polish
and etc, so they would not have a lot of time to start
doing stupid things or start thinking too much...

So, why should oil ( gold ) go up if is just a "war movie"?
And so, what is the role of Saddam in modern history as
written by the U.S.? Kind of deer hunt for Clinton to show
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE that he knows how to handle shotgun....
loaded with blanks...but looking like a live ammo...With
these blanks he can hunt one and the same deer forever, yes?

Guess, some people in the market know about those blanks...

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:02 - ID#233199)
@JTF & black pages
You shoule be able to the defaourl way your browser handles screen colours. IN MS Internet Explorer 4.0 it's under VIEW and then Internet Options and then Accesability and then Ignore Screen Colours.

Good Luck ( it works for me )


(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:04 - ID#219363)
I kinda have to lean towards what EJ was saying about the stability of gold. It's kinda like a hundred acres of mountain land in the beautiful state of Virginia. The price of mountain land rises and falls, gets easier and harder to finance, costs more or less in Yen, and has more or less demand depending on how the economy is doing. But in the end, it's still a hundred acres of mountain land, just sitting there, the sun goes over it followed by the moon followed again by the sun. It's value is very stable and transcends the market, in fact, one could even go so far as to say that the market is based on it.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:07 - ID#237260)
EJ: So true! Comments; Short and not so sweet!
I have never seen sentiment so one sided in my life, on Two counts. Precious Metals and Stocks. Remember my earlier posts. This will be looked back upon and aptly titled, The Great 401K Bubble of 1998! I simply cannot find anyone who has any fear of this market. AT ALL!!!!!!

Now let me ask you guys one simple question, and I don't give a damn about what ANY technical indicator is saying about this market.
Do you honestly think ( or are you also being sucked in with EVERYONE else ) that a market, any market could keep on going in a direction when
EVERYONE is of the same belief?
Imagine for a second, what the mood must have been like in 1929 at that top. This market surpasses that one on all counts. A true contrarian is not looking at the same things that everyone else claims to be indicators of sentiment, but rather the things that they do not see.
Got Gold, Silver and Hecla?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:08 - ID#254321)
Smokescreen? and -- gold trends
All: Just had a wild thought! What would you do if you were WJC and the impeachment proceedings were about to begin in earnest in the House? What might possibly drown out Kenneth Starr's testimony? You guessed it! A little activity with Saddam. A little 'Wag the Dog' -- with a twist.

RJ -- I must admit you are probably right that gold will probably not budge if we pound some sand in Iraq looking for those unlocated underground sites. Do you still think gold is on its way, or are we about to have a bearish surprise before the next rally? I'm just about to bail out with my profits, and jump in on the next gold equity bottom. Any insight would be appreciated.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:13 - ID#373403)
What stability dont you see? The dollar has been making unheard of daily and weekly moves against other major G7 currencies. The dollar has not exibited the stability one would expect from the worlds reserve currency.

Gold on the other hand has kept a relatively fixed exchange relationship BETWEEN other currencies. Yes, the price fluctuates WITH currency changes but the currency/POG ratio relative to $US has been stable.

As to gold not being money, everything which can be valued is money. In other words, money is anything which is accepted for payment. Those with the most convenient characteristics become more universal than others but gold certainly ranks up there. It is a reserve asset in almost all central banks. Some of the worlds oldest money is kept in gold form. Government mints, including the U.S., even use gold in official coinage, imagine that! Russia may even mint coins for common usage.

You may not be able to buy a sandwich with gold but if it came down to it, I bet you could buy a car with gold.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:15 - ID#268260)
Somebody sure loves this stock. It has been rising for days. I was lucky enought to buy 25,000 shares when it was US$.18/share. Sure would appreciate knowing what the email said or how I might get a copy. Thanks in advance.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:18 - ID#286249)
Envy--yr 23:04...Well said
A is A

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:22 - ID#319242)
Dollar volatility

To interrupt the discussion, on October 5 the dollar closed at 134.5 yen and 1.634 Dmarks. Two days later, it was 120.4 yen ( -14.1, -10.5% ) and 1.616 Dmarks ( -.018, -1.1% ) . Two days later it was 116 yen and 1.636 Dmarks. In reality, the yen went up, not the dollar down. RJ is correct. Gold is down because the dollar is up.

In January, 1991, gold dropped from 403 to 373 ( -7.5% ) in one day at the beginning of the Desert Storm bombing. That might tell us something. There was a flight to the dollar and gold cratered.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:22 - ID#43460)
Bedtime musings
Y2k will not affect those who use the Islamic calendar. Think about it.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:24 - ID#433172)
Are there any special conditions for investing in Bearx? Can a standard stockbrober set it up?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:33 - ID#411259)
..... TheMissingLink .....

All you write is true
But gold is only traded
In US dollars everywhere
While falling 20% in dollars
Gold has risen
30% in rand

No stability to be found here.

As for buying something with gold say a car..

The price will be listed in a currency
You will need to figure how much gold you will need
To equal that asking price
An exchange must be made from gold to dollars
And, if necessary, to the purchasing currency

Then a transaction could be made.

How else could it happen?

Try bringing many ozers-o-gold to your local car dealership
And then try to buy a car with your ozers.

Good Luck


(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:34 - ID#35757)
Yep those that use islamic computers will not be affected.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:36 - ID#153120)
Investment Advice from Missouri
I was listening to Rush Limbaugh today on the radio and he had a clip from Congressman Gephardt from Missouri today. Mr. Gephardt was in favor of letting some of the Social Insecurity Funds to be allowed to invested as the taxpayers wanted to BUT the congress must not allow the American People to take the money and invest it in some foolish manner as putting this money into gold mining. Hey you don't get to be the Minority Leader of the House of Reps with out knowing what you are talking about!

Well I don't know about you but on this advice I'm thinking of selling every gold share I have and I possibly to invest it into something responsible like technology ( internet stocks? ) or maybe into Money Center Banking.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:43 - ID#190411)
23:02 analogy is good.
The pity is that gommint blusters, and hunts with blanks, yet the ground forces contend with supersonic metal shards, tearing limbs from the torso.
I still don't know why US/UN had to kill so many Iraqui conscript peasant farmers, when the plans for battle had passed them by.
If we just would pump oil on our own continent, and stay the hell out of
the rest of the world's business, then StudiO.R would be happy. There would be joy in the oilfields here, from Venezuela to the North Slope.
F* the warmongers.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:43 - ID#290202)
GEORGE: stockbrobers must only be used in VERY special circumstances.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:48 - ID#318183)
rangy/ranyd - I sure hope the kibble bashing ain't over!!!
Gold dancers's posts on 11/11/98 12:57 PM, 13:24 PM and 14:00 PM are right on point! It isn't just Dow Jones it is also Moody's showing the
10 to 7 reverse split.

I received the voting proxy TODAY - I had to even search through the annual report to find what the votes where about. They can send me extra copies of the glamorous annual report but send the proxy on time for me to vote and mail it back ? I voted via internet "against" everything - I don''t trust them to take care of my best interests.

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 16:54
mozel ( @Rangito @Studio ) ID#153110:
he 144A plan shares were exempt from the 3 to 1 reverse split per the R* press release. These are "institutional
shares". Kind of explains the big block trades post announcment if you ask me. We get 1 ordinary in Joberg for
every 3 we bought. They still get one for one. Screwed by Mr Corporation again.

This alone should raise many many ethical questions if not legal ones.

I have thought about whether to post this or not and probably shouldn't but I did take out any reference to posters here so ...

If I am "way far out in left field" again then feel free to let me know.

With all the recent nonsense concerning the 3 for 1 reverse split of the
RANGY ADR's I must conclude that the kibble fiefdom does not have my best interests in mind, as an ADR shareholder in rangy/ranyd this is very disturbing and the fact that my broker, dreyfus has the shares in my
account still showing the split at a 10 to 7 reverse split- thus rubbing
my nose into this situation - ( They use Moodies who still says the reverse split was 10 to 7 ) .

I went through the RANGY annual report very carefully - it is so full of
footnotes and wacky accounting that I have to doubt the veracity of the
whole thing.
I've heard many times about the hidden asset value locked into the shares - I see no hidden unlocked asset value - the report itself says a share of RANGY ( pre split ) was worth 783 cents ( rand ) which at todays conversion rate ( 5.700 ) is $1.37 - ( post 1 for 3 reverse split $4.12 ) When I deduct all the "interesting accounting" - which I KNOW would not be acceptable FASB accounting and would get me a "D" in ECON 101. I get $2.00 US ( post split ) .
Your deductions for "interesting accounting" may vary.

IT IS DANGEROUSLY LEVERAGED with a $48 million dollar US denominated bond . With the RAND having crashed it is even more a dangerous liability - what assets will have to be sold to pay it back in ever so dear $$$$ if gold doesn't take off - I have never heard one word of this debt here - nor what it was used for - it was a major bad decision by management and the stock price has reflected this.

As the market in SA is a "primitive one" - similar to the one in the US in the late 1800's - try like polarbear has suggested to get a quote in the middle of the day. It is a totally controlled manipulated secret market - making our NASDAQ ( market maker controlled market ) look like laissez faire wet dream.
I believe that RANGY is fully valued right now and will only go up - contrary to what the SA and randgold experts here say - only when gold goes up.
There was no need for the 1 for 3 split - regardless of what the NASDAQ
rules require - it an absolute disgrace that the SEC allows this requirement - a stock below a $1 is there for a reason ( the disaster of the $48M US bond and the "interesting accounting" in this case ) - artificially inflating the price hurts all the remaining shareholders and allows the market makers room to drive the price down again. We all know they control the price of the stocks they trade - how many market makers have you ever heard of going out of business??
They have no rule against short selling without upticks or having to "borrow" the stock and what do they care if 1 share is now 1/3 a share they will just sell the 'new' share - only the existing shareholders have the 1/3 share.
The continous lack of information from the kibble gold mining wizards is not a good sign and the disgraceful way this split was effected should be
seriously investigated. And giving the corporate interests a 1:1 reprieve
infuriates me - it has to violate US Securities law - my ADR's are just as good as theirs.

I find it funny that someone posted that the delisting of RANGY - would have caused problems among the troops - I'm so glad this reverse split nonsense was effected so well - could it have done any more damage?

I won't comment *wink* on the condescending and arrogant posts of someone
here in the know make me wonder about his/her true intentions - the excessive built up RANGY and then the about sudden about face raises some interesting questions as well.
In conclusion - RANYD/RANGY is dangerously leveraged and has to pay back this money in an expensive currency - this has been a disaster for the company and is reflected by the share price - If this was any arbritage situation as someone suggested 40000 shares or the $37000 ( whatever ) of stock sure wasn't the work of 100's of arbitragers!!

Who here who has held the stock and not traded it has any profit - NO ONE!!

The accounting methods in the annual report would raise eyebrows to any
professor in ECON 101. The ADR sponsor - The Bank of NY - has raised a real question of their fidiciary responsibility in my mind ( especially having dealt with them over the rip off of the DROOY B options last year ) and now this nonsense information of "7 shares + $2.50 will you get 10 shares of RRS" as reported here. I myself have talked with "VINCENT" and there is a real problem there.

I hope gold does go up and raise the value of all gold stocks - but with the contrary indicator that KITCO posts deliver - it will probably still go down or base for a long time.

The ultimate shocker is this 144A CRAP!!! And how many options does kibble grant himself ?? Look at Vote issue 7 - it sure makes me so glad kibble is in charge!

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 16:34
morbius ( James ) ID#35757:
Did you ever notice how a candle will burn brightly for a few seconds just before it goes out?

It is because GOD saves the best for last or is it the proof that GOD is a procrastinator????

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:50 - ID#190411)
Perhaps you should point out to RJ that the SA Rand, since 28 August 98 is up 20.2033% against the USD. That's more fun than any metal since then.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:52 - ID#253228)
Homestake and Baron August von Finck
I noticed on Edgar online that the last report from von Finck was filed September 8 reporting activity during August. There has been no report in October for September purchases and so far in November there has been no report in November for October purchases.

It is interesting that the last purchses reported by von Finck was on August 13 and it brought his holdings to an even 30,000,000 shares which is roughly 14% of Homestake shares. Could it be that he has acquired all he plans to acquire? His filing was for permission to acquire UP TO 25% which does not mean he will acquire any more.

He certainly is in for more more than $350,000,000. The decline in the dollar has probably cost him a 5% loss just from currency changes and if Homestake does a nasty bear move, as I believe it will, his potential paper loss is huge.

If you think your spouse gets on your case for losing a few bucks, just think what he will hear. I wouldn't be suprised to see him at a live stock auction bidding on an ewe for a new bed partner.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:52 - ID#45173)
When the yen dropped 10.5% against the dollar, gold changed only a few percent in dollar price and rose much in yen price. In January, 1991, gold dropped from 403 to 373 ( -7.5% ) in one day at the start of the Desert Storm bombing; the dollar value of gold fell. The question is, what did the dollar do that day relative to other currencies?

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:57 - ID#219363)
Gold Currency
You might not be able to buy a car with gold in the states, but that's an American phenomenon. In the states prices are set, that is, you go into the 7-11, check the price on the twinkies, you take it to the counter, and you pay that price in dollars, then you leave. A lot of foreign visitors are not only confused by this, but irritated, because in some countries EVERYTHING is negotiated, and a lot of the value is relative to the person making the purchase or sale. If you go into a shop in Italy and want to purchase some film for your camera, the last thing you want to do is ask the shop keeper how much it costs, or you're gonna get ripped off in a big way. You have to start the conversation by offering to pay something and work out the price from there. Anyway, my only point is that in America I doubt gold could be used to purchase things, but an Italian would probably love your gold.

(Wed Nov 11 1998 23:59 - ID#254321)
Background color now my choice!
Swp1: Thanks! I now have made permanent copies of R Hoagland's web pages -- and I must admit there is quite a bit more to this site than I thought.

Silverbaron: Thanks again -- I will be reading and puzzling for some time I think!