Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:01 - ID#31868)
I don't know what parts of the USA you folks have been in but you certainly can use
gold to make doubt about it...none...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:01 - ID#43349)
He wants to avoid triggering a "poison pill" clause for stockholders who acquire more than 15%

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:02 - ID#290202)

No More ADRs.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:02 - ID#237299)
Lou_Jan: They say the first step to recovery is breaking denial ;-)
Are you an Kitcoholic? KA's 20 Questions

1. Do you lose time from work due to lost days on Kitco?

2. Is hogging the modem making your home life unhappy?

3. Do you lurk at Kitco because you are shy with other

4. Is being a goldbug affecting your reputation?

5. Have you ever felt remorse after buying Rangold?

6. Have you gotten into financial difficulties
as a result of Peutz's predictions?

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an
inferior environment when the XAU turns sour?

8. Does the chance to buy "some really cheap" gold calls make you careless of your family's welfare?

9. Has your ambition decreased since finding out about the PPT?

10. Do you crave Kitco at a definite time daily?

11. Do you want "to just log in for a second" the next morning?

12. Does obsessing about Y2K cause you to have difficulty
in sleeping?

13. Has your efficiency decreased since you began to manage hundreds of gold stocks?

14. Is ragging about Greenspan jeopardizing your job or business?

15. Do you buy gold coins to escape from worries or trouble?

16. Do you surf Kitco alone?

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory
as a result of having your logic thrashed by Mozel ?

18. Has your physician ever treated you for gold fever?

19. Do you collect "stock market crash articles" to build up your self-confidence?

20. Have you ever been to a hospital or institution
on account of $30,000/ounce delusions?

If you have answered YES to any one of the
questions, there is a definite warning that you
may be Kitcoholic.

If you have answered YES to any two, chances
are that you are an Kitcoholic.

If you have answered YES to three or more, you
are definitely an Kitcoholic.

How many questions did YOU answer YES to?

( Apologies to Alcoholics Anonymous, Bart, Steve, & Mozel: da' devil made me do it ) ;- )

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:02 - ID#24135)
Feeling refreshed from the movie ..
For Salty ..
Gen'rel Mo has a point .. perhaps your missing auto
is part of a NWO inspired vehicular redistribution
program .. You may not have been informed .. something
is probably in the post ..
.. Suggest you view this event from the altruistic
.. Nasty selfish me held two young colored guys at
gunpoint for 20 minutes for trying to steal a large
bag of avocados about 3 years ago .. believe they
are better people now .. and I loose very few avos..
.. I wonder what I would have done if I caught them
trying to steal my car .. I could have gotten in a lot
of trouble..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:03 - ID#318183)
rangy/ranyd - I hope kibble bashing isn't over yet?
Sorry if you already read this yesterday - but I want full discussion on this :
Gold dancers's posts on 11/11/98 12:57 PM, 13:24 PM and 14:00 PM are right on point! It isn't just Dow Jones
it is also Moody's showing the
10 to 7 reverse split.

I received the voting proxy TODAY - I had to even search through the annual report to find what the votes where
about. They can send me extra copies of the glamorous annual report but send the proxy on time for me to vote
and mail it back ? I voted via internet "against" everything - I don''t trust them to take care of my best interests.

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 16:54
mozel ( @Rangito @Studio ) ID#153110:
he 144A plan shares were exempt from the 3 to 1 reverse split per the R* press release. These are "institutional
shares". Kind of explains the big block trades post announcment if you ask me. We get 1 ordinary in Joberg for
every 3 we bought. They still get one for one. Screwed by Mr Corporation again.

This alone should raise many many ethical questions if not legal ones.

I have thought about whether to post this or not and probably shouldn't but I did take out any reference to posters
here so ...

If I am "way far out in left field" again then feel free to let me know.

With all the recent nonsense concerning the 3 for 1 reverse split of the
RANGY ADR's I must conclude that the kibble fiefdom does not have my best interests in mind, as an ADR
shareholder in rangy/ranyd this is very disturbing and the fact that my broker, dreyfus has the shares in my
account still showing the split at a 10 to 7 reverse split- thus rubbing
my nose into this situation - ( They use Moodies who still says the reverse split was 10 to 7 ) .

I went through the RANGY annual report very carefully - it is so full of
footnotes and wacky accounting that I have to doubt the veracity of the
whole thing.
I've heard many times about the hidden asset value locked into the shares - I see no hidden unlocked asset value -
the report itself says a share of RANGY ( pre split ) was worth 783 cents ( rand ) which at todays conversion
rate ( 5.700 ) is $1.37 - ( post 1 for 3 reverse split $4.12 ) When I deduct all the "interesting accounting" - which
I KNOW would not be acceptable FASB accounting and would get me a "D" in ECON 101. I get $2.00 US (
post split ) .
Your deductions for "interesting accounting" may vary.

IT IS DANGEROUSLY LEVERAGED with a $48 million dollar US denominated bond . With the RAND
having crashed it is even more a dangerous liability - what assets will have to be sold to pay it back in ever so
dear $$$$ if gold doesn't take off - I have never heard one word of this debt here - nor what it was used for - it
was a major bad decision by management and the stock price has reflected this.

As the market in SA is a "primitive one" - similar to the one in the US in the late 1800's - try like polarbear has
suggested to get a quote in the middle of the day. It is a totally controlled manipulated secret market - making our
NASDAQ ( market maker controlled market ) look like laissez faire wet dream.
I believe that RANGY is fully valued right now and will only go up - contrary to what the SA and randgold
experts here say - only when gold goes up.
There was no need for the 1 for 3 split - regardless of what the NASDAQ
rules require - it an absolute disgrace that the SEC allows this requirement - a stock below a $1 is there for a
reason ( the disaster of the $48M US bond and the "interesting accounting" in this case ) - artificially inflating the
price hurts all the remaining shareholders and allows the market makers room to drive the price down again. We
all know they control the price of the stocks they trade - how many market makers have you ever heard of going
out of business??
They have no rule against short selling without upticks or having to "borrow" the stock and what do they care if 1
share is now 1/3 a share they will just sell the 'new' share - only the existing shareholders have the 1/3 share.
The continous lack of information from the kibble gold mining wizards is not a good sign and the disgraceful way
this split was effected should be
seriously investigated. And giving the corporate interests a 1:1 reprieve
infuriates me - it has to violate US Securities law - my ADR's are just as good as theirs.

I find it funny that someone posted that the delisting of RANGY - would have caused problems among the troops
- I'm so glad this reverse split nonsense was effected so well - could it have done any more damage?

I won't comment *wink* on the condescending and arrogant posts of someone
here in the know make me wonder about his/her true intentions - the excessive built up RANGY and then the
about sudden about face raises some interesting questions as well.
In conclusion - RANYD/RANGY is dangerously leveraged and has to pay back this money in an expensive
currency - this has been a disaster for the company and is reflected by the share price - If this was any arbritage
situation as someone suggested 40000 shares or the $37000 ( whatever ) of stock sure wasn't the work of 100's
of arbitragers!!

Who here who has held the stock and not traded it has any profit - NO ONE!!

The accounting methods in the annual report would raise eyebrows to any
professor in ECON 101. The ADR sponsor - The Bank of NY - has raised a real question of their fidiciary
responsibility in my mind ( especially having dealt with them over the rip off of the DROOY B options last year )
and now this nonsense information of "7 shares + $2.50 will you get 10 shares of RRS" as reported here. I myself
have talked with "VINCENT" and there is a real problem there.

I hope gold does go up and raise the value of all gold stocks - but with the contrary indicator that KITCO posts
deliver - it will probably still go down or base for a long time.

The ultimate shocker is this 144A CRAP!!! And how many options does kibble grant himself ?? Look at Vote
issue 7 - it sure makes me so glad kibble is in charge!

Date: Wed Nov 11 1998 16:34
morbius ( James ) ID#35757:
Did you ever notice how a candle will burn brightly for a few seconds just before it goes out?

It is because GOD saves the best for last or is it the proof that GOD is a procrastinator????

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:05 - ID#43349)
@RJ could say it's the go;d that stood still and the currencies that went up and down.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:09 - ID#290202)
I guess your go;d changes not.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:10 - ID#45173)
I agree with you that gold is not currency, but disagree that it's not money. Gold has no meaningful denomination in daily transations. I can't get any out of the ATM. It's like lead or rubber, except I'd be hard pressed to store much wealth in lead or rubber without a warehouse and all the transaction and storage costs involved. Property is also a good store of wealth, but it's hard to sell little pieces of it and you have to go through a complex and expensive transaction process to buy and sell it. Gold is like property, but portable. You might say the same about Platinum. The difference there is that Platinum has no historical role as a store of wealth so there are fewers buyers, thus the market is less liquid.

To say that gold has "dropped in dollar price" is exactly the same as saying "the dollar has increased in buying power." If at one time I can buy a suit for $500 or with an oz of gold, and at a later time the dollar loses half its buying power due to inflation, then it will take $1000 to buy the same suit and I can still buy the suit with one oz of gold, and sell the oz of gold for $1000. I have gained nothing by owning the gold. I've made no profit. However, relative to all of my other investments denominated in dollars that are not indexed to inflation, such as bonds that I bought that pay 5% or cash or stocks, my gold is looking pretty good as a store of wealth.


(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:14 - ID#411259)
..... Envy .....

All you say is indeedy true also.

But Italian or Swede or Nanook of the North
Has zero way of determining the value of the proffered gold
Without comparing said gold to the dollar.

This is the market, I did not make it so.
It may one day be otherwise
But that is not on the horizon
And I prefer to stay with what is

Nobody, anywhere, knows what their gold is worth
Unless one weighs one's gold in dollars

Righty O


ANOTHER fans. Oil is traded only in dollars also.
But those damn bastards over Middle East Way
Ain't gonna' have nary none even a bit of the Y2K, no?
Seems they have that Islamic Immunity, yes?
Don't tell Mozel that they are on a Lunar calendar
I don't want to have to prove it exists.

Away tomoveallmy$togoatherdsinthedesert

Paul Gold
(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:15 - ID#21484)
Lakefoil - 00:03
"As the market in SA is a "primitive one" - similar to the one in the US in the late 1800's" ... "It is a totally controlled manipulated secret market"

OOPS! Your ignorance is showing!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:17 - ID#190411)
Rand up 20.2% since 28 August
Then why have the SA's declined as much as they have since the spike down, and recovery?
They are declining steadily versus the big NA stocks.
Run PDG/Anglogold.
I can see that the SA sales are denominated in USD, but, that doesn't quite account for the large drop in shareprice versus the NA mines.
Is the weakness over in the Rand/USDollar? If Rand holds, then the cost structure would seem to favor the Nevada mines.

I hope that some reporter asks Rubin/Goldman-Sachs about the plunge of the USD against the Rand.
"Mr. Trashery Secretary, Is the government of the United States considering the dire consequences of a forex run on the US currency, by a cabal of apres-apartheid bushmen?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:17 - ID#318183)
Any one else get the Internet voting not enabled with the randy proxy?
They sure Are making it difficult to feel good about being a shareholder!

Paul Gold
(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:18 - ID#21484)
DROOY bidding for mine in Fiji
Press report at Company's statement to be published later.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:19 - ID#290202)
...kibble krap...
...or...could they spin off RResources with most of the good stuff ( Syama,

Mali etc. ) , roll the RANYD shares into RR ( suddenly ) , and leave good

old RANGY/RANYD holding the bag for the $48,000,000 loan ( along

with those stupid ADR holders ( like us ) .....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:21 - ID#318183)
paul gold
Ignorance ?? have you ever gotten a quote REAL MARKET QUOTE from SA??
The bank of NY and the people at du Plessis Associates couldn't even get one!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:23 - ID#30345)
what makes gold money
liquid, durable, desirable, recognizable, portable, and finite.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:26 - ID#344326)
@ the graveyard shift with the RANGY blues....
Isn't Richard Hoagland the guy who professes NASA has supressed information about a "Monument on Mars" that is a face similar to the sphinx?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:27 - ID#254321)
I guess I'm addicted too!
All: I just reviewed my charts -- and gold equities still look bullish to me -- should have a wave up in the next week if all is well. Commodities are strong, despite the resurgence of the dollar. And -- gold bullion is still up - despite the dollar. Sure looks like Gold is heading up, and commodities bottoming -- for now. Deflation later, I think.

The weakest pattern is with the general equities, with SP-500 drooping on a 10-day intraday chart.

I'm sticking with my defense/gold equities mix a little longer. Nothing on the horizon to indicate trouble before Xmas, with the exception of Kenneth Starr and Iraq. Logically you would expect surprises here would be bullish for my investment choice.

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:27 - ID#24135)
Lets set this company on track ..
for lakefoil ..
you got me real excited when you said ...

" These are "institutional shares". Kind of explains
the big block trades post announcment if you ask me.
We get 1 ordinary in Joberg for every 3 we
bought. They still get one for one. Screwed by
Mr Corporation again. "

But then I need some explanation ... dont you
mean that you got 3 ordinary shares in Joburg for
every ONE you bought ???? If "they" get only one
for one .. well now isnt MR Corporation getting
screwed ..
You got me all riled up .. so I checked my account
and I had in fact bought a teensy weensy bit of
rangold .. 32500 shares .. my cost was 4 rands ..
they closed yesterday offered at 4 bid 3.7 I think.
... What is the big deal .. Their debt is handled
as part of their liability .. their NAV is something
like 5 rands plus ( gotta check ) .. they are geared to
the Randgold Resources Syama mine in Mali mainly ..
.. But you are right .. I can do a better job than
Kebble in running that company .. vote for me ..
.. turn Rangold into a more CARING company .. with
individual consultations for every "comporate

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:31 - ID#347457)
@NTEOTWAWKI (y2k beancounters got your thinking caps on?
NTEOTWAWKI, there was a long discussion about "depreciate or not" by accounting standard board. About year ago they reached the decision and issued the ruling ( though the ruling might have been changed later on as most companies complained ) that the software remediation can NOT be depreciated ( I kind of agree with that ) . Reason is that the Y2k remediation will not add any additional value to this asset ( it will just do the same thing as before ) and therefore the cost must be absorbed in the FY when it occurs. Hardware replacement is a different story, you can depreciate new hardware, however, you still must eat the remaining cost of the old hardware that was not fully depreciated.

I have to say that I stopped following closely accounting rules for Y2K work and can't say if anything changed ( though I doubt it ) . This is how it was about year ago.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:31 - ID#45173)
One more thing before I go to bed.

There is one way I can make money with gold and that's if there's a mania for gold in the future as there was once before and there is now for stocks. There are many scenarios that might cause that to happen, and many have been incorrectly predicted over the past 20 years. But we do not have tomorrow's newspaper so there's no way of telling what or when such an event might ocurr. That's why I don't have all of my money in gold.

But then that's the only way to make a lot of money. Bet against the majority and be correct.


(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:33 - ID#373403)
George, RJ
George, BEARX only has a $2,000 minimum investment. You can purchase directly from them or through a brokerage.

RJ, again, a car can be purchased with gold. Most every car dealership is owner operated. Most owners are very saavy and can accertain gold pricing info. The delay caused by an assay can be compared with the delay caused by a tricky financing done over a weekend when banks are closed. It really depends on how business is. If we enter a credit contraction induced recession as I expect, businesses will be begging for cash buyers and the opportunities to "barter" gold for merchandise will only increase.

While you may be right that gold must then be converted to dollars to complete the transaction, the dollars themselves are only promises towards the next dollar "barter". That there is deflation, inflation, Y2K, currency fluctuations, check clearing, credit clearing, means that electronic dollars are not really a complete transaction in and of themselves. They too must be spent for the "barter" between what you produce and what you consume is complete.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:34 - ID#411259)
..... I agree about the land... Not making any more of that .....

Gollum -

Precisely as in physics.

If one is moving in a straight path
Under uniform acceleration
It is impossible to determine
If one is moving at all
Unless one looks out the window

Envy -

There is a falicy inhearent within your suit-o-gold story.
I have done the math, more times than I can add up
But the fallacy always raises its ornery head
If you are going to make assumptions, please admit
That you assume gold will rise with inflation
While true for very short periods
The numbers prove, that over the long haul
Perhaps a decade or three
That gold has ALWAYS lost against inflation.

The word is ALWAYS.

I posted the numbers
Some time back,
Thrice in fact
Nobody was able
To make them add up
Any differently

Remember that I am a trader
Buy it low and sell it higher
But this does not gel well
With the Store of Value thingy.

As for the Suit-O-Gold.

I would not wear one priced
At the current value of gold today

Huh uh


While gold has been on of the worst possible investments this century..

I believe it may be one of the best investments in the next two years


(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:35 - ID#290202)
John Disney...
"comporate citizen"s are people too...........OK, I'll vote for you; remember,
Studio.R for V.P.!!! ( one small thing, could you wire me a plane ticket to
Johannesburg so I can vote? Thank you )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:36 - ID#219363)
I cannot dispute what you say, as I buy my twinkies in dollars too. I can say that in the airport cafeteria a young Italian cashier caught glance of my US silver dollar and began negotiating for it's purchase. His bids were in Lira, and I doubt the dollar crossed his mind. I suppose fortunately for me, the dollar did enter my mind as I went through my Lira calculations, and alas, he was unwilling to pay my price, which was reasonable.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:37 - ID#290202)
John Disney...
"comporate citizen"s are people too...........OK, I'll vote for you; remember,
Studio.R for V.P.!!! ( one small thing, could you wire me a plane ticket to
Johannesburg so I can vote? Thank you )

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:39 - ID#24135)
Dont catch that plane Savage..
you financial wizard you
because you said
"spin off RResources with most of the good
stuff ( Syama, Mali etc. ) , roll the RANYD
shares into RR ( suddenly ) , and leave good
old RANGY/RANYD holding the bag for the
$48,000,000 loan ( along with those stupid
ADR holders ( like us ) .."

.. This is a fantastic suggestion .. I will sell
my few shares of Rangold on the open and buy
RRS in London .. then I fly to Joburg and drop
this little number in the company suggestion box..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:40 - ID#237299)
If I remember correctly the "excessive cost to companies for Y2K remediation" was one of the strange reasons given for the last out of session Fed drop in the intrest rates. They said that companies would need to borrow money to "fix" the problem, and since lending was drying up they felt it was necessary to give it a little kick. Yeah right.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:41 - ID#411259)
..... ? .....

What makes gold money? liquid, durable, desirable, recognizable, portable, and finite.

Shame it is not acceptable

TheMissingLink -

Yes, my point is that gold is tied to the dollar in the most whorish and incestuous way. Until this changes, you cannot view the metal without looking Ben Franklin right in the eye.

Not a pretty eye


(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:43 - ID#258273)
Missing Link
Last time I sent a check to Bearx it arrived on the day of the 500 point drop. Got NAV as of the end of the day. Bummer. Had the same feeling as you when I dropped it in the mail.

I buy a lot of things with gold. In fact am building a cabin next Summer. The contractor asked to be paid in gold. He wants a fixed number of ounces. Lumber mill is the same way. Could care less about dollars. Y2K and all. Also, just hired a programmer for some AI work. Contract requires payment in ounces of silver. The only place these transactions show up as dollars is when I declare the "sale" of the gold in dollars on my income tax return. The fed certainly requries a dollar centric perspective.

During the great depression my grandfather bought everything directly in placer gold. When he sold his car all he could get was 150 chickens. There were no dollars in his world at this time. He passed away last winter. Our family went to the mountains and refiled his claims this summer as a tribute. I consider this placer source may be better than a cash machine in the not to distant future. And a little bonus. Platinum placer. Lots of it. Thanks Gramps. Grandpa didn't even know what platinum was during the depression. Probably have to sell this stuff for dollars. If there are any.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:43 - ID#290202)
John Disney
Somehow, I don't feel better. ( and no plane ride too... )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:46 - ID#30345)
What more is it then that the dollar has, and gold does not? ( Besides a bunch of crooked promoters ) .

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:47 - ID#411259)
..... Please read all my jibes .....

With the gentle good humor with which they are offered.

There is not a speck-o-spite in me this fine eve

I leave for a week in Jamaica Sunday


(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:48 - ID#319242)
I don't have any data on other currencies other than silver also dropped from 4.19 to 4.00. I remember that lots of money went to the US dollar, and don't remember what the yen, dmark, pound did. I do remember that there was a run up of gold the month prior to the bombing because the 'book solution' was to buy gold prior to wars. In previous conflicts this had been the thing to do because investors weren't sure if the US would be around to honor dollars after the USSR nuked us ( always a thought in US-USSR disagreements ) . Therefore, previously there had been a flight to gold instead of dollars, but now the dollar is safe and gold loses some luster.

Of course, if we should suffer a loss such as the desert fiasco under Jimmy Carter, then I would expect gold to rally as some investors moved out of the dollar.

With the Clintonized condition of the US military and no 6 month buildup I don't feel too good about what's about to happen.

To the pre-WWII Japanese military logic, Pearl Harbor was just Japan's natural answer to the US getting too strong in Japan's sphere ( neighborhood ) . With that in mind, we should understand how the average Iraqi citizen feels about his country being bombed in the middle of the night.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:49 - ID#25490)
Glad you altruistically took my advice and "got out mo'. " Hope mo appreciates the vicarious broadening of his mind, ( kinda like exercising the dog, Arf.. ) and stops labelling every gainsayer to his views a NWO socialist. Arf..

Just had a call from Au_Producer who arrived today in Auckland, I see steinlager in the near future.

He sends his regards..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:50 - ID#411259)
..... longj .....

Gold buys only dollars

Dollars buy everything under the sun

Righty O

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:51 - ID#24135)
Larry Curly and Moe ..
buy Rangy .. or Ranyd or randy or whatever

For lakefoil ..
and you said ..

"Ignorance ?? have you ever gotten a quote REAL
The bank of NY and the people at du Plessis
Associates couldn't even get one!"

If the bank of NY paid 700 rands/year they could
download the entire joburb market on email daily
from Sharenet..
.. maybe they dont have email facilities or
subscribe to reuters .. I hear there is a bit of
an infrastructure problem in the inner cities ..

This is as funny as "the big Lobowski"

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:52 - ID#30345)
Gold can buy my labor, and buys yours each day of trading.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:53 - ID#373403)
Hate to seem like we are bickering, as I am not, but with all the back and forth it appears so.

Your statement that gold is valued in Ben Franklin's eye is true, but Ben Franklin is valued in the eye of Gold also. The dollar is mentally calculated each and every time we accept payment for our time, as wages, and each time we spend it.

You don't just take a job for $20/hour. You compare that $40,000 per year with the cost of rent where you want to live, the cost of the car you want to own, the cost of the groceries you feel justified in consuming. And you compare that purchasing power against what other people with similar skills are being paid.

That these calculations become subconcious while one must manually calculate back the value of gold into dollars due to it not being a mundane calculation does not make it any more esoteric than evaluating the cost of a meal out versus the cost of a haircut. The $40 in your pocket has no meaning in and of itself, it must be compared to the goods it purchases.

So it is with gold that it can be converted into $300 or a mans suit or ten meals out.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:53 - ID#411259)
..... Gotta Go .....

Goin' down to Southpark
Gonna' have myself a time..........

Everybody sing along.......


(Thu Nov 12 1998 00:57 - ID#30345)
@RJ et. al.
I am not arguing. Smiling the whole time. ( ;^ ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:00 - ID#290202)
......RJ..... careful in Jamaica. You know what happened to EB.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:03 - ID#233199)
@JTF I'm glad you could se through my poor typing and proof reading..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:07 - ID#290202)
...John Disney...
...can I be Moe this time?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:09 - ID#290202)
...John Disney...
...can I be Moe this time?

Greenstone Gold
(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:12 - ID#428232)
Living in a dream world.......

Not losing sleep......

JUST counting the dollars.....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:14 - ID#219363)
Just when you thought it was safe: 14075.06 -352.96 -2.45%

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:15 - ID#290202)
Apologies to all...
...for the double posting. ...blasted computor! ! ! ( I guess after y2k I won't
have this problem )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:18 - ID#258273)
Kicking ass during deflation
Met with a Japanese software company today. Grew 600% over last year. Two years old and up to 200 employees. Highly profitable. This seems to be the rule. In Japan, my friends in software and especially the internet are thriving during what they are calling their own great depression.

During our great depression labor saving appliances that allowed the wife to work made fortunes. Maybe the market is seeing something we are not. Not that the high flyers won't crash, but the internet is an awfully powerful tool for difficult times.

Gonna start another software company, artificial intelligence for internet profile mining. Buy your shares here. Get em while they're hot. Only one ounce of gold per share. Sorry MC/VISA/US$ or other debt instruments not accepted.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:18 - ID#258195)
EJ said ( at 23:52 ) .." When the yen dropped 10.5% against the dollar, gold changed only a few percent in dollar price and rose much in yen price. In January, 1991, gold dropped from 403 to 373 ( -7.5% ) in one day at the start of the Desert Storm bombing; the dollar value of gold fell. The question is, what did the dollar do that day relative to other currencies?"
The answer you require is to be found in the Dabchick Gold Index .
On Wednesday January 16th 1991, Gold on this Index closed in London at 85.1
On Thursday Jan 17th it closed at 78.4. Taking the midpoint ( 81.75 ) as 100%, this was a fall relative to ALL fiat currencies of 8.2%.
You guys really should start looking at gold ( like Virginia's lovely mountains ) , and STOP LOOKING AT CURRENCIES.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:23 - ID#219363)
Monsanto To Cut Up to 2,500 Jobs

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:29 - ID#219363)
Japanese Stocks Fall
TOKYO ( AP ) -- The dollar rose against the yen Thursday morning as tensions between the United States and Iraq escalated. Japanese stock prices fell moderately. The dollar bought 122.17 yen at midday, up 1.05 yen from late Wednesday in Tokyo and also above its level of 121.72 yen in New York. The Nikkei Stock Average lost 66.40 points, or 0.46 percent, to 14,361.62 at the end of the morning session. On Wednesday, the index gained 319.93 points, or 2.27 percent. The dollar rose in the wake of President Clinton's decision to order warships, planes and troops to the Persian Gulf Wednesday in preparation for a possible attack against Iraq. The United States and Britain have been threatening a military strike since Iraq said late last month it was stopping the activities of the U.N. Special Commission, which is responsible for eliminating Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Clinton said that not enforcing U.N. demands for arms inspections would be a costly mistake. The dollar, regarded as a safe haven, often strengthens at times of international tension. On the Tokyo Stock Exchange, share prices remained in negative territory on growing doubts over whether the government will cut Japan's unpopular national consumption tax.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:30 - ID#282207)
COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities rose slightly on Wednesday, while precious metals ended mixed. Gold dipped 50 cents, silver edged up 0.7 cents, platinum rallied $2.30, and palladium gained $1.10. The yellow metal in morning trading attempted to cross above its 200-day moving average but failed, and did not try a second time. The U.S. dollar was modestly lower against most major currencies, while bond trading was closed for the Veterans' Day holiday. Stocks initially rallied sharply but ended the day mostly lower, with small caps continuing their recent trend of underperforming large caps, usually a bearish portent. The Russell 2000 index of small-capitalization U.S. stocks started the day moderately higher but ended with a moderate net loss for the third consecutive trading day, re-confirming Monday's bearish key reversal. This is a negative technical performance likely to lead to greater losses in the near future.

According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, the European Central Bank ( ECB ) plans to increase its gold and foreign exchange reserves next year by between 130 and 180 billion European currency units ( ECUs ) . The report said the increase would come from the national central banks and would be in addition to the 39.46 billion ECUs they are due to hand over to the ECB at next January's debut of the Economic and Monetary Union ( EMU ) .

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:30 - ID#25490)
A defining moment......
Your last post reminds me of ANOTHER series of economic definitions:

Contraction: "I hear someone's lost his job."
Recession: "My neighbour's lost his job."
Depression: "I've lost my job."

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:34 - ID#190411)
Ruebin ( sp roob bin ? ) ,"As long as we pursue economic policies consistent with a whore on payday, everything is hunky-dory."
Perhaps I misquoted the Great no-Oz. Oh, well, we shall continue to pay for his fantasy until we can get back to business, and regress to a gold standard.
Go Latin Monetary union, go gold.
...............Noone has called Bernatz du Ventadorn to task for 325.00 on 11/11 have we?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Where is Hepcat?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:40 - ID#267344)
What happened to Kitco?
I thought this site had burned itself out! Alas, I was mistaken yet again. Some good debate has transpired this eve. Perhaps I should scroll back and see what else I have missed, yes? Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

- c

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:42 - ID#343259)
@JTF re 100MBBL oil
100 MBBL oil is not all too much. Yes, it is a lot, but with US demand about 17MBBL/day ( Number may not be correct but is in the ballpark ) , this represents 6 or so days of USA Demand.

If you have ever seen Niagra Falls, the Horseshoe Falls is about 1080 feet across. The river moves about 25 miles per hour, the average depth of the river is 25 feet. If you were watching oil, instead of water go over, it would take 1 minute and 40 seconds to represent 17 million barrels of oil. That is a staggering and humbling thought next time you visit the falls, or have cause to recollect the image.


(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:46 - ID#233199)
Re: Niagra Falls
It's a staggering thought to envision that much oil being burnt!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:52 - ID#31868)
clone, Namaste' gulp and a puff to me a favor and send me an email...lost
your address when my hard drive and backup disc comitted I have some info to send your way...


(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:53 - ID#343259)
Oil burning
Not all is burnt, some is turned into plastics, and other petrochemical based product. But about half is burnt in motor vehicles alone, more in Power plants. Perhaps Studio.r has more uptodate knowledge on demand usage. But, further humbling, is that it is for ONE DAY, imagine that, day, after day, after day, and we're only talking about the USA...

Oh BTW, Now less than 600,000 minutes until Y2k only 597,602 minutes to go.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:54 - ID#31868) you don't have to go to full text...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 01:58 - ID#190411)
@Rehash of days gone by.
What ever happened to MINE:OTCBB? This was to be the two thousand foot deep placer deposit that would dwarf any in the whirl.
Does it trade anymore?
Or did the recent rains wash all of the gold downstream to the next scam?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:04 - ID#220325)
George re BEAREX
Phone them directly at 1-800-332-3133 and they will set up an account for you without your paying a broker.

Better still call Brad Scott at 1-214-265-5195 and he will do it for you

Good Luck

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:07 - ID#24135)
Bernatz the troubador of Eleanore of Aquitaine ..

for ERLE ..
How many times I gotta tell you .. that schmuck was
never the REAL Bernatz .. it was hepcat in a Bernatz
suit .. guy got lucky ONCE .. in his LIFE .. and we
saw it HERE on KITCO .. he can now be swept into the
dustbin of history ... hail and farewell ..

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:15 - ID#24135)
pardon me ..
to savage lakefoil ..
Rangold closed at 4 rands .. my cost is 4
rands .. this is a major non-event .. you
guys have worked it into a drama of Shakespearean
proportions ..
thats what I call talent..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:21 - ID#316193)
"MINE" is on the pink sheets now. Just like you, I've been
curious about whatever happened. Here's the link where
it can be followed.....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:37 - ID#386245)
@cellar-brating tonight.
Sold a big box with a nice view on the 8th floor over a pretty lake. I like to keep my feet on the ground. In return I got a piece of paper with a great big number on it. Jeeeeeeeeeez, it took long enough. Am sending this piece of paper to a bunch of thieves ( call themselves a bank ) tomorrow. This will just about wipe out another big number. All part of my deflation plan. Don't want to worry about big numbers when paper is hard to find. In 1931 my grandparents put my father and aunt into an orphanage. Two years earlier they owned a million in real estate. I can feel deja vu all over again. Where is Yogi Berra when you need him??

(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:43 - ID#25490)
Nick@long memory
It is good to have experience across the generations. One of my great-grandfathers squandered a fair part of a family fortune ( made from shipping ) backing Argentine Railways, just before they went where the woodbine twineth. last century

An old friend just arrived. Old friend are gold.

See ya.

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 02:50 - ID#24135)
is it my imagination ..
. RJ
or did PGMs just jump out of the box ..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:04 - ID#386245)
Depression money
bleach ( for purifying water )
seeds ( non-hybrid )
other grains
baked beans
tuna etc.
kero lamps
coins ( non-precious )
the list goes on...................
How full is YOUR depression 'bank account'???

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:23 - ID#386245)
You forgot "Have you ever killed someone on the road because you were composing a Kitco post while driving down the street?"

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:32 - ID#386245)
"Hoooooome, hoooooooome on the Rangy...
...where the deer and the buffalosh*t roooooam...
where seldom is heeeeeeeard...
an encouraging woooooooord...
and the suckers are Kebbled all daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay"

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:34 - ID#386245)
Pardon mois folks...
I didn't make that last post.
It was the Cabernet Sauvignon that diddit. Naughty cab!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:39 - ID#252391)
To Disney re PGMs
I notice that Plat is up $4 but the quote I have is an hour old and there is a big bid ask spread. Any thing on PD overnight. Is it up at ll??

Gold over 294 and silver holding $5.00. This is in the face of a stronger dollar.

How much lower go the SA golds??

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:45 - ID#386245)
Gold up 30 cents
--daughter doing homework...
--wife out swimming...
--Nick@C making a fool of himself...

Glenn--gold 225 before 325...I am waiting for you with the evidence, mate. $1000 to bart at 325, Glenn.

RJ@Jamaica. Have a good one, mate. They have something they make down there out of sugar cane. Hope you can find some and...

Auracious..all the best to Au Producer. Report back, pronto.

To John Fogerty. Glad you've got your songs back, mate. Now touring Oz. Go Creedence!!! .... and gold!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:49 - ID#386245)
"I'd rather die on my feet...
...than live on my knees." John Fogerty's battle with the record company. Long live CCR.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:54 - ID#386245)
Globex red... if they knew what they were doing!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:57 - ID#258195)
Gold and Silver Lease Rates
For Wednesday 11 Nov calculated from data published in Thursday's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month

Mean GoldLR------4.66---------------4.27-------------3.87-----------------3.52
Gold Lease Rate---0.66---------------1.14-------------1.32-----------------1.57
( Change ) ----- ( - 0.01 ) ------- ( - 0.01------ ( - 0.01 ) ----------- ( - 0.07 )

Silver Lend Rate----4.10--------------3.35-------------2.45-----------------2.20
Silver Lease Rate---1.18--------------2.06--------------2.74-----------------2.89
( Change ) -------- ( 0.00 ) -------- ( - 0.10 ) ------- ( 0.00 ) ---------- ( + 0.05 )
Lease Rate equals $LIBOR minus Lending Rate
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild.
( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day's figures.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:59 - ID#258195)
Kitco Clock
Amazing how my transmissions from Here always get There 3 minutes before I send them.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 03:59 - ID#386245)
Cab.Sauv.--half empty.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 04:13 - ID#386245)
For Tolerant1

(Thu Nov 12 1998 04:17 - ID#386245)
For Mozel

...and half a glass of beer.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 04:25 - ID#252391)
So. African Golds
The index below of So African golds isn't doing very well. Recent action has taken it below the 50 day moving average. Ossilation around this average suggests anothe 20% decline may be in store. The equivalent percentage move would take us down to 64 or such in the XAU and occur at the same time gold slipped back into the mid 270"s.

What this says to me is that if this stuff is being accumulated by strong hands they are indeed taking their sweat time. There is no anticipatory buying of the great EURO introduction.

Now i would be encouraged if gold were able to take out yesterday's high and pierce $296 - a close above that level is the stuff dreams are made of.^JGAI&d=1ym

(Thu Nov 12 1998 04:40 - ID#386245)
Mah Merkan Mates

(Thu Nov 12 1998 04:49 - ID#252391)
Good Candlestick charts

Some pretty good candlestick charts on this page. Notice the XAU - ugly bearish tails all over the place recently, particularly yesterday.. Important support at 76 right below the market. I say gold holds up until after the bombs are dropped then bombs itself taking the XAU into the dirt arount 62.

Notice also the drop in the Utilities index - declining hold of lower interest rates or the growing fear that necessary lower short term rates will heat up inflation - never know that from the gold chart - guess the two don't talk.

Most bullish sign - not pictured here - is the quiet falling onto most precious metal boards. Interest has dried up - conversation is ending - well. what's to talk about; the arquements for the gold bull are old and tired. CABALS of Central Bankers controlling the market have turned interest elsewhere.

From this darkness a new trend may emerge, or we may drift down for another year, as we have the last, holding out hope on every $1 rally that something big is a foot when repeatedly there is not but dreams.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 04:50 - ID#386245)
OK--I shall desist. G'nite all.
One day I was walking along a dock, and on one side, I saw Bill Clinton Drowning. On the other side, I saw Steve Case ( President of AOL ) drowning. I had a tough decision to make. Should I have a burrito or a cheeseburger for lunch.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 05:11 - ID#290456)

Not to worry - check your gold charts in the Euro longer in a downtrend.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 05:42 - ID#43349)
Iraqi troops moving toward Kuwait

(Thu Nov 12 1998 05:55 - ID#43349)
Iraq oil news

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:27 - ID#26793)
More bad news for those holding Russian paper

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:36 - ID#26793)
Brazilian problems not getting any better. Industrial output worst in years.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:42 - ID#26793)
Analyst says gold stocks look good; disaster for most everything else

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:43 - ID#365216)
in my last Safe Money report. . .
I got an enclosure with Weiss offer to trade you in and out of the
Rydex URSA mutual fund with a minimum deposit of $100,000.
Does anyone know how he makes money on this deal? I don't recall
seeing commissions being mentioned. Thanks and that is all.

I think I will stick with trading myself in and out of URSA. I'm
in the red still but at least I'm not sinking more money in at the
present. My plan now is to accumulate cash and buy PM coins.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:49 - ID#333126)
iraqi oil

funny, they report a 3% gain quickly. what about those days when it fell more than this?

maybe a spike down day soon?

hmm... might join cherokee... crude calls ... long dated ... soon.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:52 - ID#333126)
oh, those japanese schemes...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 06:58 - ID#26793)
Chinese economy worsens; numbers crumble from Asian crisis

(Thu Nov 12 1998 07:21 - ID#255226)
Jims your analysis gets better and better keep it up. SNP may have hit a short term low yesterday, look for a run to 1150 and 9000 dow. Depending on the strength of this next move we'll be able to get an idea if 1250 is coming. XAU is still in a corrective process and is not near a break out. Short term it should hold 75 if not 65 is possible. Frustrated, I would not be getting out of my gold funds here, instead I'd be scaling in your downside is not much more then 5%. Silver and gold should roll over soon, if they don't start down toward their objectives ( 4.40, 275 ) by the middle of next week I would have to reevaluate my targets.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:00 - ID#248234)
Getting sleepy in Tokyo. But wanted to thank you all for the fine education you've been giving this long-time lurker.

Shopping coupons will be for JPN citizens with children of 15 years of age or less or old age pensioners. The Furusato Coupons, ( so the proposal runs ) , will be issued in a packet of 20 ( sadly reduced from the 30, previously agreed... ) with an approved value of Y1,000 per scrip, ( a'la beer coupons! ) , will be limited in use by time ( six months ) , place ( your defined residential district ) , fair value ( no change given ) , and utility ( local municipalities may have power to approve what items the coupons may be used for ) .

Question: This funny money, counterfeit fiat currency, call it what you will, is it ultimately deflationary or inflationary? Or is the effect negligible. I wonder if it can be used to buy gold?

One can be certain that in giving the drowning man an aspirin, he has no lack of liquid with which to wash it down...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:00 - ID#333126)
Globex down
SnP down 450
E-mini down 500

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:02 - ID#31868)
Nick@C, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...thanks for the laugh...
as far as the burgers go, get one of each and enjoy the show...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:05 - ID#258427)
@jpb in Japan
We need to hear more from you .... give us the perspective from Japan more often, eh...

thanx ( stop that lurking only!! )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:06 - ID#234182)
For years I have wondered what you do for a living....just figured it out you are the Yahoo biz editorial coordinator.....have a good day ( ;= ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:11 - ID#248234)
I posted once last February suggesting that gold would GO only after the JPN surge into and out of US equities. I was wrong - or perhaps the surges were inadequate. ( I also mentioned the train security guards to help limit jumpers )

Those guards are gone-for now. Tomorrow we see how the Nikkei digests the Plan.

Anyone here a Black Hole analyst?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:23 - ID#284255)
Nick@Cabsav - pass the bottle please :-(
What happens when you leave the screen for half a day?
Damn PC caught a Y2k bug and ate the whole drive.
Extracted 30 odd files out of the many thousands.
Reformat job no less.
Lost some of Dad's latest poetry plus a book he's writing. -sigh-

Not sure but all files scrambled with very wierd dates. 44 - 99
This was pentium133, running Win95, Office97 etc
Luckily it was my backup.
Clock was 2 weeks behind.
Went to bios and reset then rebooted and then ran IBM's Y2k test.
Gone everything.

Do you have to backup the backup?

I got dem Y2k blues - oh yeah - pass the bottle.^o-o^

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:32 - ID#411259)
..... Always back up the back up .....

Sharefin -

It is worth the money to get a CD ROM recorder.
I am a fanatic about back up, but have lost data
When hard drives defy cooperation
All hard drives are subject to crash
This prompted me to get a CD recorder
Data must be backed up on non-volatile storage

They are sell for about $300 in the States

Better than a tape, better than a mirrored hard drive
When you put your data on a CD ROM,
It will still be there when you come back.

This is a comfort


(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:37 - ID#213265)
@the scene
jpb -- 'black-hole'; a mechanism that swallows confidence and paper very quickly. One first notices the fast acceleration of both as they approach the black hole. Its event-horizon is easily noticable at the point where both instantaneously disappear. Some say that at the other end of a black-hole is a white-hole that spews forth gold, silver and sanity.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:40 - ID#35571)
Sounds like the directory structure got screwed up. Often it is possible to recover the "lost" data with a little work.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:45 - ID#288466)
This wonderful and useful site for plotting gold and silver vs. many currencies has changed its format to exclude GIF plot files. If you can't read their charts, please send them a memo ( as I did ) requesting the GIF format be re-instated. Thanks.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:45 - ID#35757)
You might want to look into implementing some level of RAID. NT Server supports it, I don't know about NT Workstation or Windows 98. Disk mirroring is the simplest method.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:47 - ID#35571)
Canadiens told to consider leaving Kuwait

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:47 - ID#147201)
Dabchick re your 1:18
I have to agree. The main flagpole is gold. Btw, what part of the Va. Mtns are you talking about? I spent 4 years in Charlottesville and several off and on from New Market to Big Stone Gap. If you prefer, Thanx, Charlie

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:52 - ID#35571)
IRAQ: CBS News: US attack could happen as early as today

(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:53 - ID#235231)

this comment on the CNNfn market preview today:

METALS: COMEX Dec gold continues to lack direction and is expected

to be

confined to its recent range. If the Iraq-UN situation deteriorates, gold

may be able to capitalize on its status as a safe-haven investment in times

of crisis and could see an advance. However, given the current apathy to

gold, any crisis will need to be extreme or protracted to result in a

significant change.

Cage Rattler
(Thu Nov 12 1998 08:59 - ID#33184)
ECB and gold
The ECB wants to increase Gold and currency holdings from the agreed upon 50B euro to 100-150B. The 50B currently allocated still leaves the individual CB with 85% of holdings. Under current proposal 15% Gold rest in currencies.New proposal 10% Gold and 90% currencies ( as follows; 90% US dollars and 10% Yen ) . The new proposal still needs to be approved.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:04 - ID#333126)
hmmm... the small traders contemplating DELL
thoughts of a trillion dollar market cap by 2013 are entertained. my my my ...

everyone expects DELL to gain marketshare for the next 10 years. wonderful. 10x share prices in the next 10 years.

irrational exuberance at its best. :- )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:05 - ID#45173)
jpb: "I wonder if it can be used to buy gold?"
That's the trouble with these schemes. The government can't trick people into acting against their perceived economic interests.

The Japanese people are not spending money because they are pessimistic about their financial future. Coupons only make this worse by sending the message to the Japanese people that their government is so desperate that they will GIVE them money to spend. This is the next to last most desperate development in a deflationary economy. I'll get to the final development later.

In the early stages of a deflation, the government tries to entice more borrowing to stimulate the economy; this is the stage the US is at today. Since the problem is over-capacity and over-indebtedness, this effort fails. As businesses lay off more workers to reduce capacity, unemployment rises. The government attempts to get money into the hands of unemployed citizens directly through government funded make-work programs, as the Japanese have been doing to the tune of 120% of GDP for years, running local ( prefecture ) governments into insolvency. This will happen in the US in the year 2000 as it did in the 1930s. The next stage is that the government attempts to stimulate the economy by simply handing money out directly in an effort to stimulate consumer spending. But the Japanese people will no doubt find some way to turn the coupons into actual money that they can save. Buying gold, jewelry, or any liquid commodity will accomplish this. Gold has a special place in Asian culture, though, as a store of wealth.

Since all of these government methods do not solve the problem of over-capacity and over-indebtedness, the deflation continues until either a credit collapse occurs or a major inflationary event occurs. In the last major deflation that event was WWII. The US government became the buyer of military equipment for which new capacity had to be built, employing vast numbers of Americans. It's hard to imagine how else the US might have gotten out of its deflation then. It's hard to image how Japan will now.

Cage Rattler
(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:09 - ID#33184)
ECB and Gold clarification
Should have divided the two up.
1. Under current proposal of 50B. ECB wants to change gold holdings to 10% or less.
2. Next proposal to increase overall holdings to 100-150B with no increase in gold holdings, main purpose to "tap" into the 85% of the holdings in the CB and ( I think ) to increase strength of the ECB. Already opposition from France and Italy since they would like to keep that money in their respective CBs.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:16 - ID#35571)
It seems most major deflations get ended by war.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:17 - ID#284255)
gagnard - morbius
Y2k will not affect those who use the Islamic calendar. Think about it?

Do you mean that there are no embedded chips within their utilities?
Electricity, water, sewerage, telecomunications, banking systems?
No western manufactured goods with faulty systems?
What of any data transfers internally - internationally?

What of the effects of non-compliant neighbouring countries?
What of the transfer of oil across boarders?
What of all imported goods that they must have?
Food, medicine, materials plus much more.
They are a consuming country after all?

What of their RTC's?
What of another 100 incideous snafus I could conjure up?

There are a few countries globally, who use different native code languages.
But in todays global world there is far to much interconnectivity - interreliance to be isolationist.

Y2k will cross all borders, be they race, religion, creed or nation.
Its effects may be stronger/weaker ranging from country to country.
But it will be felt.

Especially if power is down for more than a few weeks.

If after a month with power being down
They have'nt got it fixed?
Then their chances will slip away.

If in the two years prior to Y2k, they cannot fix the systems?
Then what chances do they have of fixing the electronic systems?
When they don't have the power to run the systems to fix them?

You need power to run a PC, so you can fix a PC
And the systems at question are globally immense.

Test, test and test in the days we have left.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:17 - ID#35571)
War is a great consumer. It uses tons of oil and lots of metal.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:17 - ID#284255)
RJ - Gollum - Morbius
I'll be getting this one backed up onto a CD or 3, real soon.
My heart would break if I lost this baby.

I think my fat tables disappeared out the window.
It was partitioned into 5 drives with 3 of them drivespaced.
Much is now nonexistant.

Off to the CD shop tomorrow.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:20 - ID#35571)
It is a good idea NOT to drivespace any partitions. Much less heartache to simply buy a bigger drive. Easier to recover in the case of problems and less liklihood of problems to begin with.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:22 - ID#35571)
I guess if I had a quibble with US and/or European nations and I was a nation on an Islamic calendar, I would wait untill the end of 1999 to launch my offensive.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:23 - ID#147201)
Silverbaron re Gold/Euro
Can you give the source re charts of gold in the Euro. TIA

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:24 - ID#31868)
Thank Clintler for the following...say your is going to get ugly for the USA...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:25 - ID#333126)
sharefin @ hard drives
you doublespaced your drives? imho, that's a bad idea. it's a windows proprietary format ( yeah, they bought the tech from Stacker or something like that ) and the "partition" that that creates is actually a file on your primary partition rather than an actual partition.

i have recovered bad partitions on Windoze machines before ( thank goodness for Norton Utilities ) but had a bad experience with compressed drives. strongly against them.

backup suggestions - hard disk RAIDing for day to day. CD-burning for long term backup.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:25 - ID#288466)

See my post at about 8:45. However, my Acrobat reader will not display the charts for some reason, and they have deleted the GIF format.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:26 - ID#288466)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:34 - ID#35571)
NEM at 22 7/8 in first six minutes

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:38 - ID#45173)
Yes, war employs and consumes. Most economists expected that immediately after the war the US would fall back into recession and deflation. But the USA was in a special position after WWI to use the new manufacturing capacity to make and sell stuff to the rest of the world as it rebuilt from the war. After that phase, the US tried to inflate it's way out of deflation in the 1970s, then borrow it's way out in the 1980s and 1990s.

It's interesting to me that my optimist friends point to increased productivity as the main engine for the expansion over the last 20 years, not debt. The answer, of course, is that both have contributed. Productivity is spiking. Curiously, optimists think this is a good thing. Increased productivity also translates into increased capacity. Periods of rapid productivity gain and loose credit, usually attended by a government "surplus," always presage a period deflation and depression.


(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:38 - ID#339274)
FWIW NEM's breakout of 22 validated twice,the stock is going to make a major run.Stop is 22

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:40 - ID#284255)
Seems I'll have some work to do on this one too.
I'm running the same configuration - duh.
Don't know when though.
I couldn't turn this one off and reformat it.
CD copy first priority.

As to who throws dung first, who knows?
This email snippet is sort of applicable to global worries.
I'm located somewhere between Frankfurt and Cologne ( Siegen ) , and we
have local TV in this area, so this report was not spreaded in whole
Germany. To the story:

In Essen, which is a medium sized town, is a training center for those
who are running nuclear power plants ( NPP ) . Like the pilots of any
airline, they have to proof from time to time that they are able to
react quickly and correctly, if any problem occurs. For this reason in
this center is an exact copy of the main control stand of every German
NPP, there's even the same floor covering and the same ceiling as in
the original place to make them forget they are in Sim City.
AND the same software as in the original NPP is in this lead stands of

And additionally the one who is programming the mistakes and
unexpected events to them.

They had to run several tasks as a normal buiz in every NPP i.e. run
up to 1200 Megawatt in a certain time and so on. During their
activities the unexpected events approached, programmed by the
auditor. Everything worked fine so far, the guys did their job well.

But then:
Suddenly the fat was in the fire: the pseudo reactor run into quick
switch off, over pressure in the reactor itself causes to open some
regulation valves and radioactivity was released. Thanks God, it's a
simulation stand.

The reason: The simulation software decided to do its own simulations.
It was NOT programmed to react like this, but it did. Even the Auditor
of the crew was speechless and couldn't give any explanation.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:40 - ID#35571)
NEM 23 1/16

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:44 - ID#35571)
As bust follows boom, so increased productivity and capacity makes for eventual bigger overstocked warehouses ( or empty ones ) .

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:45 - ID#35571)
23 1/8

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:45 - ID#286249)
EMail working again! {:-)
Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 176.549 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 293.000 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 11 Nov 1998 ) : 177.021 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 11 Nov 1998 ) : 293.500 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 3.0081 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 4.9850 US Dollars

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:45 - ID#298259)
Thanks for the advice...I always respect what you have to say and appreciate your sharing your views with all us Kitcoites. I was hoping to be able to clear up some wash sales but looks like I may be getting back in sooner than anticipated - any suggestions as to a good entry point I'm not concerned with missing 5% or so on the upside.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:48 - ID#45173)
Keep your eyes open for the Brazil/IMF deal announcement
The news last Friday was that the deal might be done was soon as Monday. The news Monday was the the deal was expected Tuesday. Tuesday the news was that today's the day. There was no news yesterday. After setting so many incorrect expectations, I suppose there will be no new news until it's done. If we don't see it today or tomorrow...

$80B due this year, 49 days and counting...

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:50 - ID#287371)
@APH re: perceoved short term low in SNPs
Beloved brother...beg to differ...this new humongous downmove in SNP is just abirthing. Daily stochastics and RSI just now turning down. No hope of support in SP500 cash until low 1050s. We are still at 1121. Short and long term interest rates bottomed weeks ago. Honorable GreenMan will not lower rates on Nov 17 ( see Avid Head's Up Column; ) all hell will break loose with disappointment when anticipated cut does not materialize. Wild dogs of Internet which have led this market higher told the story in the huge two-day reversal Tuesday and Wednesday. Remarkably sharp BEAR MARKET rally from Oct 8th lows has come to its end, and major top is now in place. If 7400 support does not hold this time, Puetz will be back in business, and LGBito will have to find someone else to ridicule. As for the precious yellow, cannot see major direction developing yet, suspect retest of low 270s. Silver is for sure headed between $4.00-$4.40. Platinum ( ugh ) will trade at discount to gold soon. Palladium says, " 'scuse me while I kiss $200/oz." All along the watchtower, the guards are asleep. The joker and the thief are waiting to pick your pocket as the princes drink your wine. In the distance, the wolf howls. He will soon be at your door. Got cash? Got gold coin? Potable water? God help us all.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:52 - ID#35571)
23 1/4

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:53 - ID#288186)
Metal starting strong. Dec Gold @ 295.20//Dec Silver @ 5.04//Jan. Plat @ 346.50
: )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:54 - ID#339274)
FWIW We going to have a solid run for three days.
Gold 's objective 303,XAU 92,NEM the moon : )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:56 - ID#404312)


silver 5.07
gold 295.7

alarms going off gotta run

is this the real thing? go gold go silver

(Thu Nov 12 1998 09:59 - ID#410194)
Strong global interest in Platinum since last night despite another huge drop in the Yen.

It is significant.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:01 - ID#35571)
NEM 23 5/8

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:02 - ID#288186)
Is war usually good for PM's? It appears, this time , that it could be.
I had noticed an earlier post, I think from Dabchick, that said
gold fell 30 to 40 dollars when the Gulf War began. What's different
this time? Or is something else causing a rise in the metals? It
surely isn't the U.S. dollar...Hmmmmmmmm.

BTW, Per the EWT short term updates, I receive, gold is still on track
to make a move to the mid 320's. This is valid as long as gold remains
above 288. He still thinks it will go down big time, in the long run, though.
So far, so good for the near term, though! Fox-man

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:02 - ID#183109)
lakefoil @ RANDGOLD RANTINGS....and some new INFO...
How can you possibly know so little about your investment and then complain about it? Its one thing to be justifiably pissed off about the surprise split, but as Disney has tried to explain to youTHIS IS A NON-EVENT. The reason the price fell is because investors erroneously were dumping the stock thinking they were making a killing. This will blow over in a matter of days. It makes no difference if it splits 3 to 1, 5 to 1, or 10 to 1. You still own the same percentage of the company.

Now you claim ( in a hostile manner ) not to even know what the $48 Million bond was forARE YOU SERIOUS? Maybe your stress level would be a bit lower if you did your own research on stocks BEFORE investing, rather than wasting Barts Bandwidth on crazy comments, flying off the handle. You could save us all at least 90% of your ranting by reading all the information Ive posted on my website. If you find something missing, confusing, or misleading, you let me know and Ill fix it ASAP. Ive had an entire page of my site dedicated to RANGY DEBT ever since I started my dog and pony show project. Maybe you should start there.

If your broker is still rubbing your nose in this 7 for 10 split nonsense, maybe you should change brokers!

If you cant see the hidden unlocked asset value as you put it, why did you buy the stock in the first place?

Roger Kebble ( not kibble ) owns MILLIONS of RANDGOLD shares. You cant possibly expect anyone to believe your ridiculous allegation that he somehow rigged a bogus 7 for 10 split news release so he could add a whopping ONE or TWO percent to his holdings. IN ADDITION, he wouldnt be buying them on the NASDAQ anyway, hed buy them on the JSE, especially since according to you the NASDAQ is ONLY for market makers.

I have no idea what you are rambling about with this interesting accounting..but at any rate, to help you out, heres where your $48 Million was WISELY spent. This bond is not due for some THREE YEARS. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Granted $48 Million is a serious chunk of change, but you really need to do some research and look at the big picture here.


Quarter to 30 September 1998
Ounces produced in the quarter to 30 September 1998 were 41,242 ounces, an increase of 33 per cent. over the previous quarter. Ounces produced in August were 15,121 and in September 15,764. This highlights the impact of the first phase of the expansion programme coming through.

The second phase of the expansion programme is on schedule for commissioning in November 1998. $7.5 million was spent on capital in the quarter.

Cash operating costs per ounce have been reduced to the levels forecast for phase one of the expansion programme of $250 per ounce. $260 per ounce was achieved in August and $246 per ounce in September.

Six months to 30 September 1998
Production for the 1998 interim period is 22 per cent. higher than for the six months to 30 September 1997. This is mainly due to expanded capacity from the first phase capital programme completed in June 1998. After commissioning of phase one, costs have reduced and Syama is now making cash operating profits, although there is a cash operating loss for the six months due to the results from the first four months of the period.

The awarding of the Syama heap leach project, referred to in the previous quarter's report, has been postponed until the current expansion programme is fully commissioned when a review of all alternatives for the treatment of oxide and transitional ore will be undertaken.

The proposed method to implement the required hedging programme in respect of 50 per cent. of Syama's production for the next 3 years is to purchase put options at a floor price of not less than $300 per ounce. To reduce the cost of acquiring the put options we are accumulating a forward position. To date we have a forward sale of 130,000 ounces at an average price of $305 per ounce.

Exploration and Project Activities
The Morila pre-feasibility study was independently audited by Resource Service Group ( RSG ) of Perth, Australia. RSG indicate that the internal study is appropriate and realistic although the Company's overall resource and grade estimates may be conservative.

A 10,000 metre bankable feasibility drilling programme at the San prospect, Morila Project, commenced in October. The programme is designed to convert the resource from an indicated to measured status. A detailed ground survey for site installation is presently in progress. The bankable feasibility study is on schedule for completion by the end of March 1999.

The Company has signed a Heads of Agreement with West African Gold to undertake work on the Medinandi Permit which locates south of the Loulo and Selou permits. The acquisition of Medinandi consolidated the Randgold Resources ground holding in the Loulo region, almost doubling the ground held along the Loulo structure.

Exploration programmes designed to add to the resource base at Loulo will commence in November 1998 on the Loulo and Selou permits.

Cote d'Ivoire
At the Tongon prospect, Nielle permit, results received from a 6,000 metre RAB and RC drilling programme have led to the delineation of two mineralised zones. The southern zone hosts multiple gold bearing units within a 100 metre wide shear grading 1 to 8 g/t over an 1,800 metre strike length. The northern zone contains a single goldbearing unit grading at 1.44 g/t over an average width of 22 metres for a strike length of 2,200 metres.

Discussions are in progress with interested parties with a view to turning Golden Ridge to account. Elsewhere in Tanzania the Company is undertaking due diligences on properties with a view to defining new opportunities for acquisition.

Elsewhere in West Africa exploration activities centred on data compilation and interpretation during the wet season. Programmes were finalised for the forthcoming field season commencing in October 1998.

In line with the Company's strategy exploration activities now reflect a clear focus on priority advanced targets. This focus is reflected in a rationalisation of holdings and a reduction in ground from 21,098 km2 to 16,158 km2.

1. The Syama expansion programme is due to be completed in November, on schedule and within budget. Forecast production at an annual rate of 270,000 ounces at a cash operating cost of approximately $210 per ounce is expected from the first quarter of calendar 1999. For the quarter ending 31 December 1998, the Directors anticipate production of 53,000 ounces at a cash operating cost per ounce of $249.

2. The bankable feasibility at Morila is due for completion by the end of March 1999.

3. We have previously advised that the Company intends to undertake an open offer to convert the $20 million loan from Randgold Resources ( Holdings ) Limited to equity in the Company and to offer all other shareholders the opportunity to subscribe for shares on the same basis. At the same time the Company is also proposing to undertake a cash placing of up to 985,000 additional shares with prospective institutional investors. Details of the open offer and placing are contained in the document published today.
On behalf of Randgold Resources Limited

R A R Kebble

D M Bristow
Managing Director
29 October 1998

( AS OF 30 SEP 98 )
2,826,992 DURBAN "B" OPTIONS
15,000,000 RAND CASH
NAVACHAB ( 10% )
T.G.M.E. ( 75% )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:02 - ID#268260)
POG UP $1.50
The POG is up $1.50 from the git. Broke resistence at $295. Are my eyes deceiving me?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:05 - ID#288186)
Dec gold came within a whisker of 296! It hit 295.90, but now stands at 295.20...
: )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:11 - ID#404312)

my my

silver 5.11
gold 295.4

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:13 - ID#339274)
Taking profit
FWIW 23 5/8 ,

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:13 - ID#347457)
@EJ on events that end deflation
EJ, your "In the last major deflation that event was WWII. The US government became the buyer of military equipment for which new capacity had to be built, employing vast numbers of Americans."
is scenario that I hope would not happen, however, make no mistake about it, both WWs started not because killing in Sarajevo, or German's drive against "less superior races". These may have been the triggering events, but the real reason was economy, attempt to change existing power structure in international markets, access to resources, attempt to fight deflation and improve the economy of specific countries which could expand within existing boundaries. Yes, it's all about money and that stinking feeling "I should have more of the pie, I am better and deserve more than my neighbor".

The question is did we as a human race learned? I am not sure, deep dark human instincts did not change over the centuries. I hope I am wrong.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:16 - ID#212197)
@EJ, Gollum: Deflation & War... and more peaceful historical examples
I wonder what effect on the economy the building of pyramids had, as practised by the pharaoes in old Egypt.

Newest historical research suggests that the pyramids were not built by slaves, but by paid crafts men. I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptian priests had their economic theories, based on the observation of economic cycles, which they put into practice.

For the dominant financial oligarchy of course, Saddam will be the next target in their attempt to handle deflation.

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:20 - ID#287371)
@Oris: Welcome to Dow Jones Industrial Average Potemkin Village
Got your Volchy billyet?

Nyeh spra shay vaiy minya. Ya nyeh herAH nyehz NA'yoo.

Snyavshi golovu po volosam ni plachut.

Don't say I didn't warn you. Nazhdarovya.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:24 - ID#31868)
somebody who can post bmp files to kitco please email...I have a pic ya
just would love...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:30 - ID#404312)

sil 5.12 may stall here ( hi 5.13 ) at hi of 10/29
gold 295.6 steady

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:30 - ID#35571)
I kind of think the threat of conflict with IRAQ has pushed bonds up at a time when margin calls from last Friday ( one day hiatus while Veterans day had bond market closed ) have to be met. Hedge funds have taken advantage of the opportunity to unwind some of the leased gold/long treasury positions.

Then again, who knows?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:32 - ID#286249)
Speech by the President of the European Central Bank, Dr. Willem F. Duisenberg,

at the Institute of European Affairs on 10 November 1998 in Dublin [excerpts]
The prominent role of money in the ESCB's monetary policy strategy

Let me now turn to the role money will play in the ESCB's stability-oriented monetary policy strategy.

Ultimately, inflation is a monetary phenomenon. Assigning a prominent role to money within the overall stability-oriented strategy therefore guarantees that the monetary origins of inflation will not be neglected in the regular economic and financial analysis driving monetary policy decisions. Moreover, money is a visible "nominal anchor" for monetary policy that will help to stabilise the public's medium-term inflation expectations, enhancing the credibility and effectiveness of monetary policy.
To signal the prominent role attached to money, the Governing Council of the ECB will announce a quantitative reference value for monetary growth. In this regard, some commentators have assumed that the ESCB has adopted a conventional monetary target, but simply called it by a different name. However, before announcing a formal intermediate monetary target, certain conditions have to be met. These requirements have been met in the past in several euro area countries, and successful monetary targeting strategies have been pursued. However, one must recognise that, at present, the evidence as to whether these technical preconditions will be satisfied for the euro area as a whole in Stage Three is inevitably sparse. Monetary Union will cause changes in the financial system and economic behaviour, as ten different currency zones are merged into the single euro area. As I mentioned in my introduction, most of these changes will be of great benefit to individuals and firms in Europe. However, these behavioural and institutional changes are likely to change the relationship between money, interest rates and prices that has been observed in the past.
Consequently, a realistic alternative to a monetary target - that is, the reference value for monetary growth - will be announced. As I mentioned earlier, this reference value ensures as far as possible continuity with successful monetary strategies pursued in the euro area in the past. Nevertheless, it is a different approach that reflects the special circumstances facing the ESCB at the start of Stage Three.
This reference value will have two key features: first, it will be derived in a manner that is clearly consistent with - and serves the purpose of - price stability; second, it will be constructed such that, in the absence of special factors or other distortions, deviations of monetary growth from the reference value will signal risks to price stability.
The relationship between actual monetary growth and the pre-announced reference value will therefore be regularly and thoroughly analysed by the Governing Council. Where deviations occur, an explanation will be sought. If this explanation points towards a threat to price stability, monetary policy will react appropriately in order to address this threat. However, in contrast to the reaction that would normally follow under a conventional monetary targeting regime, interest rates will not be changed in an attempt to correct deviations of money growth from the reference value over the short term.
The Governing Council would not wish to react in a mechanistic fashion to monetary developments, precisely because the signals implied by the money data could be scrambled by the technical uncertainties I have mentioned. By announcing a referencevalue and openly explaining how it will be used, the Governing Council is presenting its monetary policy strategy to the public in a way that reflects the manner in which it discusses policy itself. This is the essence of transparency.
A number of issues remain to be finalised with regard to the quantitative reference value for monetary growth. First, the broad monetary aggregate for which the reference value will be announced has to be defined. Second, the reference value for monetary growth for 1999 will have to be derived and published. Progress on these two important issues is well under way and I anticipate a final announcement by the Governing Council in December

COMMENT: A very great deal of thought and effort to maintain ( and build ) STABILITY and CONFIDENCE. Perhaps we would do well to attend only to official ECB announcements?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:33 - ID#249244)
Crystal Ball
Thanks for warning, but what is it all about?

Ni khrena ne poniatno...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:37 - ID#404312)

sil 5.145 hi forget last comment. doesn't seem to be much selling conviction, except for me--sold half my dec calls aaaagh.

gold is stuck 295.6

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:40 - ID#404312)

ahhhh there we go. the sweet music of an alarm
gold busted through 296.7 high

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:40 - ID#334219)
LGB - On Silver
Silver taking off today... BAY as well

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:47 - ID#288186)
hugo; Between you and me, it looks like we're posting "up-to-the-minute"
prices on the metals! You beat me on the 296 break through! Gee,
I kinda like posting new daily highs. I hope you and I can keep
posting these highs all the way to 300 and above! GO GOLD! GO SILVER!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:47 - ID#286249)
( f ) Monetary and foreign exchange policy Further decisions have also been taken with regard to preparing the monetary and foreign exchange policy of the euro area. On previous occasions I have mentioned to you that legal acts are under preparation which specify general principles to be followed by the national central banks when carrying out operations in domestic assets and liabilities and in foreign exchange reserve assets remaining with the national central banks. Such instruments, which are based on provisions of the Statute of the ESCB, aim from a legal point of view at ensuring the singleness of the ECB's monetary policy and the consistency of such transactions with the Community's exchange rate and monetary policies. Against this background, the Governing Council today adopted an ECB Guideline which establishes certain reporting obligations for the national central banks' domestic asset and liability management operations and subjects such transactions to the prior approval of the ECB whenever they exceed a certain amount. A similar ECB Guideline was adopted which subjects all operations in foreign reserve assets - including gold - which exceed a certain amount to the approval of the ECB. In addition, the Governing Council adopted an ECB Guideline according to which any participating Member States' transactions with their foreign exchange working balances which exceed a certain amount have to be notified to the ECB in advance. A similar arrangement is envisaged between the ECB and the Commission of the European Communities for all foreign exchange transactions carried out in the context of implementing the Commission's budget.

COMMENT: One suggests that ECB is well aware that 'disappointing' market expectations is a VERY dangerous policy for ANY currency, let alone a Fledgling Currency. bbml

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:52 - ID#287371)
Kebbles and Bits
You can load up on RANYD when it goes back under 1 1/2 Somolians. DROOY looks droopy...accumulate under $2/sh. GSR $1 and change- my, my!
HL potentially a $3 - 3 1/2 stock?? CDE for under 5 clams? Good move dumping NEM at $23+, will undoubtedly see $16 again. Expect $9-10 PDG and $9-10 HM. I LOVE SGOLY at 2 1/2 smackers. Keep that powder dry, ladies and gents. PM mining stock buying opportunity of a lifetime coming your way soon. Meanwhile, let's get physical, physical. Blue light special -- USG is subsidizing us with cheep BU Merkin golden eagles. Namaste'. CB

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:55 - ID#254321)
Hows the gold rocket? Or -- Gold bug Tsunami
Gollum, All: Things looking good today gold equities wise. Any idea why? Derivatives expirations? Iraq business? Impeachment?

Did everyone notice that impeachment proceeding are going ahead, despite the Republican upset? Arlen Specter, a criminal prosecutor from way back, stated that the House would impeach but the Senate would fail to follow through. He suggested a deal with WJC -- resignation now, and immunity from criminal prosecution after he steps down. Sounds like a good idea.

Interesting that Arlen Specter would say this, even though he said that there was no ( official? ) evidence of overt criminal activity. What does Arlen Specter know -- something about Kenneth Starr will say when he testifies? Given that Rep Hyde wants to finish indictment proceedings before Xmas, we could be in for a very choppy period in the markets very soon.

Could be that the gold equities and gold could be in for a real boost -- as long as the general equities don't drop too rapidly.

By the way, I think AG wants all that new liquidity to leave the markets into the financial sector -- so he will not lower rates again until the markets swoon a bit. Since AG is a master at handling the markets, the environment may be almost perfect for gold equities to rise. But not too much -- whatever that is.

When can I get my tickets for the moon launch? Next stop Mars? Europa? Well -- I can dream. AG will keep a lid on everything, including gold -- but just remember 1993 -- gold went from 340 or so to 400 plus under his watch -- he did nothing because he had to expand the money supply.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 10:58 - ID#339274)
FWIW buy 23 1/8 stop 22 1/2

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:01 - ID#35571)
See my 10:30 post to FOX_MAN

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:04 - ID#147201)
SDRer re ECB
The exponential value of the distance between Icarius and the Sun has just increased. I don't know who this dude is, but he beats the hell out of any Philadelphia lawyer I ever knew. Do you really believe this BS.

Spud Master
(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:08 - ID#11929)
@JTF - Spector, having been "spaded" in the elections...
now fauns and licks at the table scraps thrown down by masta' Clinton.

Spectre knows full and well that V.P. Gore as the new President would instantly pardon admitted purjurer Clinton.

I don't know what Spectre's price was to support such a moronic and infantile notion as he did ... Clinton et al must have promised him his seat back as a Democratc. No suprise there, ALL politicians are on the same side -- their own.

As for the imminent US attack on Iraq ... i guess we are all bored and need some TV intertainment. I suspect that this time Iraqi make just shoot the hell out of our aircrews, while brave, brave Sir Clinton cuckolds away in our Soiled House.


(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:10 - ID#333127)
XAU up 5% so far, I don'txpect it toclose above 76.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:10 - ID#404312)

taking a breather
sil 5.10 ( high 5.145 )
gold 295.8 ( 296.7 )

to sell or not to sell

in my experience we'll not move a whole lot these last two days before options expiration

in my experience, however, we should not have moved today--sooo let's see, Iraq, stocks looking toppy, experts saying metals won't move much before yearend
buuuuut charts looking very very good silver shortterm goal 5.30 then 5.70, gold 301, 310,320
maybe we'll lighten up a little more but never be completely out of these markets
sil 5.12
gold 296.2
sideways to lower for the rest of the day?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:15 - ID#229207)
Miro, what is learned in war is that there is no Paredo Optimality in war. Everyone loses and no one is better off than they were when they started. This is the lesson that is repeatedly forgotten.

ALBERICH, Egypt's gov't spending on make-work pyramid building projects maybe corresponds to the pre-war phase of deflationary collapse?


(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:18 - ID#34459)
APH ( TRADING ) 0:721 Posting
Mr. APH are you looking at different XAU charts than the rest of us?
( QUOTE ) at 0:721 am today " The XAU is still in a corrective process and is not near a breakout" Where do you get your qualifications to make this statement? Are you short gold stocks?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:30 - ID#404312)

another alarm

gold high 296.8 not much follow thru yet
silver 5.12 not following

oops gold 296.9...297.1

still kinda slow going

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:35 - ID#254321)
SpudMaster: Good point. I forgot that Al Gore would immediately pardon WJC when he steps down. However, why does Alen Specter even mention criminal proceedings? Perhaps he was referring to Hillary. I don't think presidential pardons, etc would go over well if they were used to pardon Hillary too.

Perhaps what is happening is that Alen Specter is trying to work out a deal with the DEMs so that Al Gore's first job as president is not to pardon Hillary and WJC.

Somehow I doubt that someone who is in WJC's back pocket would mention that WJC is at risk for criminal prosecution.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:35 - ID#298259)
I know why the price is up today...because I got out of my gold funds. Back in with half of my position watch the POG go down. Another 25% goes in on rises or declines of 5% either way. What am I doing in this is sooooo FRUSTRATING...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:36 - ID#339274)
FWIW we should get a real plunge tomorrow.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:38 - ID#31868)
JTF, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...
Specter, for instance, is involved in the Teamsters. He reportedly worked to secure public funding for the 1996 Teamsters presidential "election" in exchange for promises of Teamsters cash for his campaign machine. That "election," Klayman points out, was not only overturned, but has resulted in criminal indictments and remains under active criminal investigation.

"Specter likely understands that any impeachment and subsequent Senate trial of President Clinton could ultimately touch on Clinton's Teamsters connection and other fund-raising offenses that can be tied to Specter himself," said Klayman. "Specter's interest in derailing impeachment seems designed to prevent the light of day from shining on his own ethics problems."

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:39 - ID#254321)
Gold peeking its nose out of two year downturn
All: Someday soon alot of investors will be piling in to this market -- the clock is ticking. Very soon.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:41 - ID#288155)

Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 176.549 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 293.000 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 177.529 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 294.450 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 3.0081 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 12 Nov 1998 ) : 4.9850 US Dollars

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:41 - ID#284255)
Clinton Celebrating Happy Thanksgiving

Thanks Tol1

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:43 - ID#31868)
expect more of this type...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:44 - ID#254321)
Philly politics,etc.
tolerant1: I think you have something. Arlen Specter may be worried about his own hide. Even then, it is interesting that he is worried, isn't it? Either way, he would not mention WJC and criminal activity unless there was fire behind the smoke.

Interesting, wouldn't you say? I think Kenneth Starr may be permitted to release some more evidence. Perhaps it has already been authorized, and Arlen Specter knows it.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:46 - ID#288155)
Chas--just walking the circle
and working probabilities ... one usually believes, with some hesitation, the date... Everything else is belief 'neutral' and carefully analyzed
{:- ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:46 - ID#31868)
Enforce the Bill of Rights...this article makes me ill...I am totally in the Ladies corner...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:47 - ID#31868)
JTF, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...
should have said in your post...worried about his own Hyde...yup...uh huh...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:49 - ID#31868)
in case you missed it...

Charleston Gold Bug
(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:53 - ID#344389)
Gold Bull Roaring & Charging Ahead !
GC9G 299.80 UP $3.90

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:55 - ID#287371)
@ Tolerant 1
You want to upload something to the web? Email me the ".bmp" ( bitmap ) file and I will haqndle it for you.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:56 - ID#35571)
Ducks all in a row, goodbye Iraq

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:57 - ID#404312)

another high
gold 297.6
silver not following..yet

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:57 - ID#287371)
@ Oris
Oomni sayvet, Tovarisch.
Vsyo eedyot v unitaz.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 11:59 - ID#31868)
Herr Clintler at work...America is in for the most rude of awakenings keeping this jack's ass in off

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:02 - ID#229207)
The DOW seems to be getting off on all of this Iraq war talk. How come? I'd have guessed war there suggests higher oil prices ( that's showing up in the oil stocks I've hung onto for just this occasion, thank you very much ) and more expensive oil will act as a tax on the already slowing US economy. Is the market not thinking that far ahead?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:04 - ID#31868)
Crystal Ball, Namaste' gulp and a puff from this end of the Island that is Long...the
file was posted by the fin that shares a few posts ago...go gold and down with Clintler the Deserter in Chief...maggots gag at the mention of his name...I hope Zappa sends weasels from the grave to gnaw his flesh...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:05 - ID#266105)
euro views

"The roots of socialism," Melcher wrote, "are simply too deeply
planted in the soil of European society."

Too deep for the euro to succeed and too deep for Americans to understand.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:06 - ID#31868)
EJ, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I am positive that you cannot use think and
market-participants in the same sentence...positive...yup...uh huh...nope

Charleston Gold Bug
(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:08 - ID#344389)
$300 Gold Penetrated GC9G 300.00
Up $4.10 US

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:11 - ID#372262)
US TRYING TO HEAD 'EM OFF AT THE PASS!!! Middle East ready for war! Turkey and Egypt waiting in the wings to pile on when the time is right. GOLD WILL NOW REFLECT THE REALITY!!!!! BUY!! BUY!! BUY!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:12 - ID#252150)
Is POG increase sustainable or just caused by option expirations positioning?
Alberich-You said that Saddam will be the next target in their attempt
to control deflation. That's true, and 20 million innocent people will continue to suffer the consequences. A continuation of what Noam Chomsky called "The most cowardly war in history". What really repulses me is when they talk about "war with Iraq". What a farce. It would be like Mike Tyson going in the ring with a flyweight.

I can honstly say that I'm disgusted with my Gov't for not speaking out about the gross injustices comitted against Iraq. I'm really disappointed that Americans acquiesce in the continuation of this agression, but not surprised. Because 90% of them are semi-comatose, indoctrinated, TV zombies.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:16 - ID#229207)
t1 & more on lack of Arab support of Iraq, ducks in row
The market thinks like a madman on crack. Not rational, unable to concentrate, prone to hysteria, highly unstable. You don't want him anywhere near your daughter.

Iraq is a sitting duck, maybe.

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:16 - ID#287371)
Precious yellow running low on fuel
Now experiencing last gasp rally for the precious yellow. Would be very surprised if GCZ8 hits $300 on this run ( right shoulder. ) Neckline at just under $290/oz. When that gives way, we'll be back to $370-380 range within weeks.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:18 - ID#318183)
John Disney, Larry Disney, Curly Disney, Moe Disney ranyd/rangy
since when is downloading "the the entire joburb market on email daily
from Sharenet.." getting real time quotes? is that how you trade?? lol
Your post to my 00:03 post was incomphrehensible - what did it mean?

Polarbear - please ask kibble about the 144A exemption for the 3 to 1 reverse split? why my adr's ( and yours ) are worth less? and is it legal to do this to USA shareholders? ( ask him if he has heard of the SEC? )
I beg to differ - adding a multiplier to a stock ( by a reverse split makes a real difference - or don't you have a calculator )
If you can't see the nutting accounting in the annual report - all the benefits to directors and such then you haven't ever read a legitimate USA annual report or 10K.
Youve hyped this stock all the way down to 5/8 pre-split - do you have any profit in this stock?
About not knowing so much about my inveestment - if you KNOW so much how come the stock went to 5/8 ( pre-split ) evidently what YOU know wasn't correct - or it would have gone to 5!! lol

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:19 - ID#35571)
On the other hand there is defense spending.

The DOW looks pretty neutral to me right now, only up about fifty or so.

Bonds are up a little but fading.

After expiry I think gold will fade again if not before.

Monday should be interstingly queasy going into FOMC.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:21 - ID#237299)
SDRer @ your ECB post
SDRer I am perplexed by the central comment in his speech:

" However, in contrast to the reaction that would normally follow under a conventional monetary targeting regime, interest rates will not be changed in an attempt to correct deviations of money growth from the reference value over the short term."

DeBeers diamond monopoly has been one of the few, ( the *only* one I can think of at the moment ) , who has successfully followed planned growth over years. They simply impose a percentage growth in diamond prices- and effect this by stockpiling fine diamond rough in London and by controlling virtually the entire market. They have millions and millions of carats in fine diamonds stockpiled which will never see the light of day.

However even they use a form of interest control to fine tune this. By limiting "site holders" access to goods, and by raising or lowering the quality of the goods they release to market they in effect raise and lower the interest rate.

How does the ECB think they can impose a formula growth in the money supply without reference to the actual growth of the GDP in the member nations? And if this gets out of alignment, as it always does, how will they re-establish stability without using interest rates to rope in the growth or contraction in the money supply relative to need?

It almost sound like they think they can do this by buying or selling foreign reserves- and somehow putting Euros in, or out of, general circulation- but doing this would seem to cause a migration of currency to the strong, and cause more commodity price disruptions to amplify at the consumer level; the very thing they say the want to avoid. Am I missing something hidden in his speech?

Signed, Confused in Dollar Land

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:22 - ID#31868)
Invest in Harley Davidson when things heat up on the military front...I believe they
have a munitions plant in PA that will benefit greatly...that is how they got their bacon out of the fire last time...check into it if you have the desire...

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:24 - ID#287371)
Bonds, bills and euros have relinquished all their early gains. Stocks will be eating dirt by day's end.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:25 - ID#35571)
Iraq backing down?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:25 - ID#266105)

The 144A's didn't need split because they aren't listed.
Their pie slice, like the listed adrs, remains the same.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:25 - ID#404312)

can't seem to pull the trigger on dec option sales
daily charts say it's a straight shot up above 310, but will it be next week or this week
5 minute chart keeps climbing. could get a blowoff top in a bit

297.9 high

silver holding steady 5.12

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:25 - ID#403195)
Drives and the wars

Hey, if the hard drive went squirrely for any reason, don't reformat and start again. Huge drives are so cheap now that the smart thing to do is to install a new, up to date drive and use that. Keep the old one on the shelf. From time to time peck away at getting the rest of the files off it or give it to a nerd, if you meet one in the future, who claims he can do that for you.

The War

The matter of the contrast between what happened to the North American economies after the two world wars bears much study. We can all agree that the increased capacity available after the second war found a ready market overseas. I believe, however, that there was very much more to the prosperity that was built through the fifties and sixties and we don't pay enough attention to that factor. That factor is human investment.

Men coming out of the service took higher education in vast numbers. Very few indeed would otherwise have even seen the inside of a university were it not for government scholarships to demobilized servicemen. This pool of talent "came on line" in the fifties and powered much in the hard sciences, particularly, for the next two decades.

It is a type of investment that we would do well to consider when shoveling out truck loads of money for amelioration of "social problems" or the manned space program. We would be far better off putting a hefty tranche of that money to work elsewhere. If kids going through high school could see that going through university just meant keeping marks up, I believe that North American society could be transformed. Among other benefits, we would have far more voters who could think straight.

The return would not be immediate but it would gives us a ten times return compared to the present system of social welfare band-aids and some big science.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:28 - ID#249244)
@Khrustalny Sharik
Chto, mujik, perebral? Skaji drugu chto on mudak...

Any comments?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:30 - ID#35571)
It may be too late
I get the feeling Iraq thought this would be just another posturing excercise. Make a lot of noise, get some negotiations going, make some hassle for the US and then back to as before.

Instead, US starting shipping planes and troops, pulled personel out of Iraq, made no move to negotiate, Russia was preety quiet, Arabs lined up anti Iraq, and everyone started locking and loading.

They will either do something in a hurry to back off now, or the fits already on it's way to hit the shan, no questions asked.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:31 - ID#318183)
ranyd/rangy 144A
2BR02B? - thanks - but that is another red flag - large amounts of unlisted stock is not good. Could you please tell me where got that info - if you found it in the Annual report could you please give the page number

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:33 - ID#254321)
Gold short term to peak soon. Generac LT probably best buy
CrystalBall: I agree -- short term Gold is about to head down. But -- I cannot stop thinking about that breakout from the two year downtrend -- so I will be poised to jump in again when it bottoms. Long term -- as I think RJ said last night -- the next two years will be good ones. Finally. Y2k is going to be a big boost for the yellow stuff. It always rises during periods of uncertainty as long as people have the cash to buy it.

All: It is not too late to buy one of those Generac 4kw LT generators. 13 hours running time with low oil monitor, and cast iron sleeeves. Oil filter option. Cost - $800US tax extra. Only 150lbs weight. Compromised with spouse. Still do not know brand name of gas motor made for these units, but looks like quality. I'm willing to gamble the cash because these units can be repaired, unlike most cheap Generac units. No cast iron sleeve on many Generac units -- so beware buying used ones. Forget those cheap Briggs and Stratton units.

I decided against the bigger LT units because the running time was shorter. And because of the 'spouse effect'. By the way, you can store gasoline up to a year if you are willing to take the fire risk - special additives are available. Decided against natural gas units because these go at exorbitant commercial prices that would guarantee 'spouse effect'.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:35 - ID#343171)
ranyd 144A program
I wrote to company about this and here is the response:

The 144A programme was created at the time of the registration of
Randgold's convertible bond. It purpose was to provide any institutions
with a facility to convert their bond holdings to shares. To date there
have been no conversions and the company will in due course amend the
terms of this facility.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:35 - ID#35571)
NEM starting to fade 23 3/4

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:38 - ID#433172)
Sad risk
Extrapolating from personal experience which is all that I can do not being a geopolitical wizard I'd have a tendency to be very circumspect before engaging a "weak foe". Our carrier force is exposed, a sitting duck. Violence has exquisite logic, and the results go down in the blink of an eye.

POWERFUL people shoud not decide when and how to strike, it's a perfect way to get knocked on your ass.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:38 - ID#35571)
I think everything hit it's peak right at the 12:11 post

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:38 - ID#147201)
2BRO2B re your 12:05
You found a good one here!! David knows what he is talking about. The situation is like a pine tree- you knock it over, but it is hell to get that tap root. Thanx, Charlie

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:40 - ID#318183)
Your credibility is sorta lacking on your claim that you have 32000 shares of RNG at 4 - if it raided 45000 the whole week - are you the MARKET there? lol

Charles Keeling
(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:40 - ID#344225)
@ Crystal Ball RE: POG
No, I dont think it will go to 375-385 quite so
quick. Your Crystal Ball needs polish.
( : ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:42 - ID#20767)
lakefoil: RANYD 144A shares ......

Only if these shares trade on an equivalent basis with the others ( those split 1 for 3 ) is there a dilution ( ie. a screwjob ) problem. The two ADR issues have different CUSIP numbers and so, I suspect but do not know for certain, they do not trade on an equal basis.

Bob in DC

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:47 - ID#229207)
Think you're right. The US can't deploy one more time without action. It's a credibility thing.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:48 - ID#147201)
SDRer Check 2BRO2B @ 12:05
Read the reference he offered by David Henry. This is my thesis.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:51 - ID#266105)

chas-- yup.

lakefoil-- Polarbear's 'in for a penny, in for a pound'
tends to color the lenses. On the other hand 'lakefoil'
seems to have fallen out of love. I don't get involved
in torrid triangles.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:55 - ID#229207)
Here we go again
Israel Opens Gas Mask Depots In Iraq Crisis

(Thu Nov 12 1998 12:55 - ID#333127)
Sure didn't see this move in XAU or gold coming,must be getting old.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:00 - ID#219363)
Gold and Silver
My call remains the same, that gold is an "accumulate", isn't that the term that the analysts on the street use ? *grin*. Buy low, sell high. I have no idea what gold is going to do in the short term, and I don't even have that much of an understanding for the dynamics of what makes it go up and down. But I know 300$US gold is cheap, and anything under that is cheaper. So I continue to purchase it in small lots from time to time, and will continue to do that as long as it's cheap. If it gets expensive in dollars, then I'll trade mine in for dollars. If it gets cheaper in dollars, then that just puts more buying pressure on me. One of these days we're going to start feeling a bottom on the Nikkei and I'll start buying over there, but those days aren't here yet. One of these days, maybe decades from now, gold is going to be 600$US an ounce, I can wait that long. Smart money is betting on the cheap stuff in the long run, gold, oil, commodities in general. Smart money is also betting against the expensive stuff in the long run, bonds, equities, those annoying little tulip internet stocks, etc. To me, betting on gold is in essense betting against dollars and world currencies in general, which in the long term seems like a no-brainer. If we head into some serious deflation, it'll probably get worse before it gets better for gold, but that's okay too, because the inflation we throw at deflation now, will eventually just be inflation when things turn around at the other end of the pig.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:01 - ID#35571)
NEM slowly fading 23 5/8
When does the afternoon profit taking begin?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:03 - ID#229207)
Looks like the end-game for US/Iraq
Iraq'S Aziz Sees "No Light At The End Of The Tunnel" In Crisis


The Hatt
(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:03 - ID#381261)
Gold will fool all!
Trying to second guess gold in the short term is very dangerous and difficult to understand. Gold will breakout when it is ready and in the meantime patience will reward all long in gold.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:07 - ID#343171)
just in from Drudge:


The British American Security Information Council on Thursday is warning all world military powers to de-activate their
weapons, to avoid possible "massive and hugely perilous systems failures" brought on by the so-called Millennium bug.

The group singles out the United States, bluntly describing the Pentagon's efforts to meet the fast-approaching deadline as
"a mess" -- with what it calls "severe and recurring problems across the spectrum."

The INDEPENDENT newspaper in London on Thursday outlined the council's warning.

"The biggest YK2 danger is not the ultimate nightmare of nuclear weapons either launching or exploding because of faulty
computer information. Since it still requires human authorization for a missile or warhead to be launched, this sort of
catastrophe is unrealistic. Far more likely, however, is the prospect of a leader, under pressure from hairtrigger response
mechanisms, pressing the nuclear button on the basis of inaccurate data."

The council would like to see world power's "separate warheads from their delivery vehicles" when the clocks flip 2000-- a
move that would dramatically increase the amount of time needed to launch an attack.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:07 - ID#318183)
love is never having to say your sorry!
2BR02B? - Ahh love - She may not look as good without makeup and without her wig and without her false teeth and without her artificial leg but to learn she had a sex change is now too much

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:13 - ID#266105)

Thanks for the chuckle, gotta run.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:21 - ID#35571)
Final words

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:24 - ID#229207)
IMF/Brazil deal risks getting priced into the Bovespa
Brazil Bovespa falls 3 Pct On Concerns Over Fiscal Reform Votes--Traders

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:24 - ID#153110)
Thanks for the 144A follow up. I suppose R* had no choice but reverse split to avoid delist. However, it would have gone down better with me if the 3 to 1 had been done everywhere and not just in N.A. Incidentally, these are Global Depository Receipts, not ADR's. I think both are just bank-broker rackets.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:29 - ID#433172)
Trouble is , it's not end game. Iraq has advanced a pawn, we have deployed our queen to chase it. They have to know what they are doing, after all, they have had plenty of time to set this up.

Queen trap

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:29 - ID#24135)
You should lose your shareholder's
licence .. Lakefoil ..
Do I have a credibility problem with you ??? Oh
my .. horrors .. I cannot bear this ..
You are a POOR jerk lakefoil .. the joburg market
is closed when the New York market is open.. it is
CLOSED YOU FOOL .. please let me know how YOU get a
.. Charly Brown ..
... and you dont believe how many rangolds I have ..
.. well who the hell cares what you believe.. If the
Bank of New Yawk needed a Joburg quote AND Joburg is
OPEN .. well they can phone ( assuming you still have
phones in the US ) .. If they want quotes after the
market here closes .. well now they can download the
data easily..
... where does one begin with you anyway .. lets
start with the Earth is ROUND .. as soon as you can
handle that .. we'll move on .. in the meantime go
away ..
.... frankly I dont think you are qualified to be a
shareholder ..

For everybody else ..
precious metals are out of the box .. surprise
surprise .. gold over 500 dmarks ..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:34 - ID#290172)
Chas-re: "The roots of socialism,"
Melcher wrote, "are simply too deeply planted in the soil of European society."
"Too deep for the euro to succeed and too deep for Americans to understand."

Well, differing points of view make markets.

One might suggest that Germany's Dmark has proved a remarkably stable currency under a very stolid socialistic government?
Or, one might suggest that the EMI constructed firewall-agreements to which each member's government had to agree before inclusion into the union?
Or, one might consider that banker's best clients have been monarchical-socialist-feudal states since the first banker made the first loan.
On the other hand

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:35 - ID#347457)
@Will or Won't they lover the rates?
here goes guy who believes Fed will ease rates on 16th

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:39 - ID#24135)
Yassuh ..
Gen'ral Mozel ..
ADR are a US bank scam .. If markans want
to buy shares in RSA .. they should open an
account in Joburg or in London and buy
the shares directly ..
... There was no reason to reverse split
here as Neanderthal US requirements do not
apply .. If RSA were to bow to Yankee
regulations I would sold the measly shares
I have of this god forsaken company pronto..
... perhaps mercans should not be permitted
to buy RSA shares .. at least not lakefoil

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:40 - ID#147201)
SDRer re Monarchical- socialist
That's what I mean. Thanx

Voyeur Professor
(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:40 - ID#231112)
SDRer @ 10;32

SDRer, am I hallucinating or does Duisenberg's reference to "a realistic alternative to a monetary target--that is, the reference value for monetary growth" imply the Euro Bank fears that, as you correctly suggest, in times of currency crisis and vulnerable global markets the dollar must not be the only "safe" haven. I speculated yesterday that the European union may be ready to significantly increase its gold reserves to provide itself with "a reference value for monetary growth." But I'm still not entirely sure what he means. It's too bad that central bankers talk as incoherently as professors. It would have been nice if he said flat out, "The Euro Bank will significantly increase its gold reserves from 5-10% to 20-25%. In this way we will demonstrate our commitment to a stable euro." Then, by God, we'd see a gold bull.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:44 - ID#404312)

gold and silver hit new highs 298.2 and 5.15
then recoiled sharply. been my experience that a rally about an hour before the close will be repeated at close. will see if 301 or 5.30 are hit--will dump all options if so.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:44 - ID#119358)
@John O. R* bored meeting.......
are there any "essentials" that I should bring to make our get-together more pleasant? Got some extra room on da' plane..... ;^ ) ~ I do like you in that corner office, yes....looks good on YA!!!

Crystal Ball
(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:46 - ID#287411)
@ Oris
Pah-ZHAH-loo-stah eez vyee NyEE-tyeh. Ya nyeh puh-nyi MAH-yoo. Eta spaseba za moyu druzheskooyoo pawmishi. Eez vyee NyEE-tyeh zah byes-pah-KOY-stvuh.
Zhelayu zhdorovia. Ya zhehlayoo vom booyt-shahslivum.

Khrustalny Charik

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:47 - ID#219363)
Thursday Gold Coin Prices
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Selected coin prices Thursday

Gold Coins
American Eagle, 1 troy oz. $314.03 off $ 1.03
American Eagle, .50 oz. $164.35 off $ 0.53
American Eagle, .25 oz. $87.02 off $ 0.27
American Eagle, .10 oz. $38.75 off $ 0.11

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:50 - ID#288186)
hugo; Thanks for giving us updates. One clarification on your last post...
You said "will dump all options". Are you speaking of gold and silver
puts that were in place as hedges and you want to get out of them
to recover some of your premium? Just curious...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:51 - ID#257151)
Corrupt, stupid grasping functionaries will make at least
as big a muddle of socialism as stupid, selfish and
acquisitive employers can make of capitalism.
-- Walter Lippmann

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:52 - ID#318183)
disneylander - arrogance galore
you are one arrogant fool - Before Daylight savings time the markets overlapped -

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:53 - ID#341294)
Judicial Watch Letter to Henry Hyde
On November 10, Larry Klayman sent a letter to Sen. Henry Hyde demanding that Hyde inform Judicial Watch concerning the status of Clinton Impeachment Inquiry. You can read the letter at Klayman demanded a response by noon today, in order that Klayman could hold a news conference concerning same at 1:00 p.m. today. The letter was also carbon copied to all major news media. Anyone know if anything happened?

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:54 - ID#24135)
Just one thing ..
studio R
.. Dont bring Lakefoil ..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:54 - ID#219363)
Texaco Cutting 1,000 Jobs

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:54 - ID#153110)
War is a furnace that consumes everything fed into it without yielding useful heat.
War financed by bonds is advance taxation of future production, the payment of which increases neither production nor savings.
Does the destruction of a young man, and hence the destruction of all his future production, increase wealth ?
Does the destruction of a town increase wealth ?
WWII did not end deflation. Forced savings of military scrip ended deflation. Printing of military scrip has since destroyed the value of any saved. All of the intangible wealth of this economy is purely illusory and fruadulent.

Only gold survives the furnace of war, changing hands in the process.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:56 - ID#219363)
Retail Earnings Are Mixed Picture
Kmart Corp.'s third-quarter earnings doubled as increases in sales of home-related products and health and beauty care items overcame weak demand for clothing. Gap Inc. also reported very strong third-quarter results, with earnings soaring 45 percent from a year ago thanks to surging sales at its Gap, Banana Republic and Old Navy stores. Lands' End, however, reported a steep slide in third-quarter profits, hurt by weak sales in its core catalog business.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 13:56 - ID#31868)
mozel, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...aheeeeeeeeeeeeeemmmmmm...I believe
you should rethink point 4 in your evidence...Washington, D.C.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:00 - ID#318183)
image of the great trader
I meant during Daylight savings time they overlap - Your arrogance is amazing - did i hit a nerve about you buying 32000 shares during a week only 45000 traded? lol these were your numbers!! lol

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:01 - ID#153110)
Good point.
A town producing nothing but False Promises produces no wealth.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:04 - ID#30345)
@ RJ .... Urquellian Money
From before:

What makes gold money? liquid, durable, desirable, recognizable, portable, and finite.

Shame it is not acceptable

What more is it then, that the dollar has, and gold does not? ( Besides a bunch of crooked promoters ) .

And from the Pilsner Urquell....

The dollar is more liquid, less durable, more desirable, more recogizable, more portable, and less finite.

The dollar is also more traceable/less uniform than gold.

Why is the dollar is more liquid? It is, becase people are able to convert it readily into other valuable forms, including gold. The reason this is so is because it is widley used and people have dollar denominated obligations, or expect obligations to be fulfilled in the terms of dollars. In short the obligations drive the demand and hence convertabiltiy of the dollar. This demand has become acute with the increased liabilities in dollar terms. The shortfall of dollars has led to an increased desire for them in relation to gold, hence the fall in gold price. This situations may be poised to reverse itself when the present gold lending practice is considered.

Why is the dollar more desirable? At the moment, this desirability is derived from a number of the other attributes of the dollar, and is subject to change. The dollar has a percieved high durability due to increased demand and lower ( for the moment ) percieved price fluctuations relative to other money forms with similar attributes ( fiats ) . The dollar is widlely recognized, as a stable form of obligation. The dollar is also more portable. For example three one hundred dollar bills are less weighty, and of less substance than a relative measure of gold. But that relative measure is also subject to change with the denomination for example three hundred one dollar bills. The dollar is also capable, the ultimate portability, electronic transfers. But the chief desirable trait is one that is the most dubious of qualities. That is the quality of traceability. All dollars are serialized or otherwise identifiable and thus tracable. This tracability lends itself to monitoring and taxation ( read confiscation ) . Taxation is a principle means of controlling the less finite aspects of the dollar. Interest rates, and monetization of debt are two of the others. The balance of these produces stability , and thus desirability.

Why is the dollar more portable? The dollars portability is derived largely from faith and trust. More, discussion later if you want..I'll be watching... got a meeting now.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:06 - ID#219363)
Treasury Bonds Move Higher

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:08 - ID#219363)
German Budget Gap More Than Thought
BONN, Germany ( AP ) -- Germany's finance minister says the government budget gap will be $6 billion wider next year than the $33 billion calculated by the previous government. Oskar Lafontaine's announcement today was a damper for spending plans by the center-left government elected in September, which has promised to beef up social programs and cut taxes while maintaining fiscal discipline. Lafontaine predicted an economic slowdown in 1999, citing lower domestic demand and Asia's financial crisis. He said he expects the budget gap to be $12 billion above earlier calculations by 2002.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:13 - ID#341294)
Monsanto to cut up to 2,500 jobs - from today's Associated Press.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:13 - ID#219363)
Indonesia Protests Turn Violent
JAKARTA, Indonesia ( AP ) -- A day of street protests became a night of violence Thursday, when soldiers and police fired plastic bullets, tear gas and water cannons at thousands of students trying to march on Parliament. It was the worst outbreak of unrest in the capital since riots forced Indonesia's former President Suharto to quit in May after 32 years in power. An estimated 20,000 students hit the streets Thursday in the boldest challenge since Suharto's successor, President B.J. Habibie, took power. At least 110 students were badly injured, medical staff and human rights groups said Thursday, the third day in a row that student protests have turned ugly.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:14 - ID#31868)
SilverBaron, all, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...keep a close eye on HABE and
ITRO...both mining and or gold, silver and medical tech related...remember the smallest pony in the circus makes you the most money...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:15 - ID#219363)
I saw that one too, tis only the beginning.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:16 - ID#31868)
Does anybody know what happened to JIN or has anyone heard from our friend has been a while since I have seen any mention...Namaste' and a giant gulp to ya JIN...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:16 - ID#284255)
Why not go the alternative way.
Free power forever.

Throw those power bills in the bin and avoid dangerous chemicals.
Be the talk of the neighbourhood.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:22 - ID#255226)
xau- Cobra
We're looking at the same charts, but read then differently. Here's my chart, the Kitco contributors and lukers can decide for themselves if we are breaking out or consolidating or going back down. Yes, I'm long gold funds but not because of mythical breakouts.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:26 - ID#386129)
General Schwab on CNBC....
he was just interviewed about Iraq crisis...mentioned meteor shower..may lose a military sat??

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:27 - ID#254321)
George: Good points about Iraq.

I do not like this 'tell the enemy we are coming approach with Saddam'. It's much easier to lose the Chess game when you tell the enemy what you are doing. If we put enough people or munitions over there, we run the risk of shooting ourselves in the foot -- even if Saddam does nothing.

What if we shoot down another Iranian airliner? Or get close to some Oil platform in the Gulf that isn't what it appears to be? Or run over a mine?

I don't like this one bit. We have political bureaucratic types writing the script for the war. If you must have a military confrontation, decide on what is to be done, and let the military do it.

I must admit this sounds strange coming from someone who does not like war one bit, but I do know that lasting peace does come from having a strong prepared military -- and not using it. The weaker we let our non-nuclear forces get, the more likely we will do something stupid.

It will be interesting to see if Saddam breaks down. Must be approaching winter over there, so any ground based military campaign by Saddam might not be very wise. Could be that all this is is smokescreen, in the hope that the US makes a mistake.

But --- can't rule out a 'lets distract the American people from the Impeachment proceedings' gambit. That's one problem with letting the politicians wage war.

At the very least we are running up a big bill.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:28 - ID#229207)
To clarify my point, an attack on Iraq is the end game but is the beginning of a string of moves that lead to the end. It will take a long time. My sense is that the USA will for the first time not be immune.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:32 - ID#229207)
War is the last, most desperate step to forstall deflation and collapse. It delays collapse by borrowing against the future. We have been borrowing against the future ever since. Some day the future will be now. Then you will want tangible assets that you own outright.

Gold, for example.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:34 - ID#194311)
Go Kitco!
Let 'em have it.

GOGOLD 3-2-5 by 25/11

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:38 - ID#286249)
Voyeur Professor-Well said!

[With the clarification that Kitco's Voyeur Professor is the exception that proves your rule!] {:- ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:43 - ID#219363)
Will they cut, raise or do nothing ?

I hadn't expected the first cut, certainly not the second, so I'm not even gonna guess on a possible third. The FED spurs on growth when it cuts rates, which under normal circumstances would seem appropriate if the economy were going to slow down. This time, however, the FED is spurring on growth right in the middle of a big bonfire called the global economic crisis, and it doesn't make a bit of sense to do it unless the intention by Mr. Greenspan is to "let her down easy". If there is sanity behind the FED cuts, I wouldn't expect to see many more of them.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:45 - ID#35571)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:45 - ID#252150)
We can all relax@Wimp Doozyburg was just on CNBC & said he won't allow
inflation or deflation. He was waving a wand around & Mike Sheller would have liked his hat. It was high & conical & had a bunch of astrological signs on it.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:46 - ID#288466)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:48 - ID#34459)
APH & Reading Charts
APH I printed your nice chart, thanks, it's much better than mine.
You label the present situation as an ABC correction, obviously a correction to the previous decline. I am basing my bullish premise on an explosive ( 5 ) wave count up and out of the hole at XAU 48.50. Yvan Auger and I disagree on this too. A minute inspection of this data of that time frame, to include the volume will show a reversal of trend and a big climactic bottom at that time. I strongly feel that that was the washout capitulation that sold every one out..We should see a wave ( 3 ) or C wave up as ( 1 ) and ( 2 ) are complete.. I am fully aware that Robert Prechter has called for $100.00 gold for years.. The gold stocks are telling me it's not ready to happen yet. Mr. Prechter, whom I admire and respect has not always been right.... My bottom line for the present state of gold is, An extremly powerful upmove is almost upon us, where it will go who knows. I've been watching gold and the markets longer than Robert Prechter has. we will see who can read the waves correctly.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:53 - ID#334219)
This ABC on your chart... Are you counting from 10/8 high with B topping on 11/6..and C in progress ?

I can read 5 waves from the low on 09/01, then an ABC to 10/26 low, followed by a new 5 waves up where 1 peaked on 11/5, 2 bottomed yesterday. Wave 3 is in progress. This move will ultimately carry us near 97.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:56 - ID#229207)
The Fed is getting a lot if mixed signals from economic indicators. They've also been sending out a lot of mixed signals to the financial community. My feeling is that data are ambiguous enough that the Fed will come down on the side of not easing for now. The last cut was an emergency cut to head off a liquidity crisis. There's no crisis at the moment. But there may be another crisis later. Better to hold the cuts off for when you REALLY need them. You only get to do so many and there's a lot of road between now and Dec. 31, 1999. Eventually, the rate cut trick doesn't work. Ergo, Japan.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:57 - ID#246224)
Wash in cold water.

Remove pin feathers.

Arrange in pan with onions and 1/2 cup water in bottom of pan.

Cover with foil. Cook 15 minutes per 1# weight ( 33 minutes per kg ) @ 325.

Remove from oven in mid-roast and 15 minutes prior to finish, baist with drippings from pan.

When internal temperature of meat at the thickest part of the thigh is at 165 remove from oven but retain the foil to preserve moisture.

Serve with garnish.

Say a prayer ..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:57 - ID#229207)
DOW turns negative
Dow 8819.44 -4.38 ( -0.05% )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:58 - ID#230216)
lakefoil......kind sir/madame
I believe that JD says he owns 32,500 shares. He never said he bought them just this 'tis --


"You got me all riled up .. so I checked my account

and I had in fact bought a teensy weensy bit of

rangold .. 32500 shares .. my cost was 4 rands ..

they closed yesterday offered at 4 bid 3.7 I think."


And you are dealing with TWO rather savvy RSA stocktraders...........arrogance is just part of the game......get over it.... regret having said anything......


(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:58 - ID#31868)
I don't think all the technical this that and the other will matter if gold and silver jump
due to "events"...if it jumps much further the shorts will be forced to cover...won't they...zoom to the moon...and then we can check out if there are any footprints...two birds with one stone...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 14:59 - ID#246224)
Just guessing here, but that 'reference' couldn't have anything to do with gold could it? Call me crazy, but its just a hunch.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:01 - ID#254321)
Alternative power: Minto Wheels!
sharefin: I am impressed! I have a little manual on Minto wheels at home. By Minot himself, I think. But not much to it. Possible to make ones up to one horsepower or so, but then you are talking about ferris wheel size. Twenty feet diameter is probably maximal. Problem with these devices is in two areas:

1 ) How to heat and cool the fluid medium ( R12 best ) . Very little heat differential needed if use right medium.

2 ) How to convert motion into electricity. Very low RPM devices are hard to use, as most generators are very inefficient at 1 RPM speeds. The Generator would probably have to be all permag -- with lots of them. Expensive custom-made generator.

I would suggest solar panels with one of those variable input volage inverters and a lead acid battery pack of you want alternative renewable energy. That technology is proven. Or wind or water power -- even cheaper cost per watt -- if you are the lucky one and have enough wind of moving water. Don't need much of a water head these days, but still have a low rpm generator problem like with the Minto wheel.

I would suggest a Minto wheel only if you have a need for a very low RPM motive source, or you want to experiment. I will eventually -- I would love to make an alternative energy educational site -- but I would also like to make a prototype space drive using the Zero-point energy stuff -- which is in its infancy. Too many ideas and not enough time!

My the way I concur with not using drivespace. Just bought a 6.7 Gig Maxtor ultra DMA for $120 US. Now -- that is cheap! Haven't bought a recordable CDRom for backups -- yet. Price coming down rapidly.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:02 - ID#288186)
CoBra; It's nice to get different perspectives and different interpretations
on Elliott Waves. I get the EWT short term updates, and you're right.
Prechter is calling for gold to fall below 200 in the future. He 1st
see's it going to 320's or more in a wave c move. I have always taken
his and all TA with some degree of confidence for short term moves.
I, however, have always believed that EWT or other TA can't always
fore-tell the really big moves in the long term.

I will always look forward to your posts, APH's posts and any others
that give us TA as well as fundamental reasons to stay long the PM's!
This could very well be the "BIG GOLD BULL BEGINNING"! I hope it is!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:03 - ID#286230)
Wash in cold water etc etc Did you join some sort of cult? : )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:07 - ID#254321)
Selby: Thanksgiving cult I think. Good thing we have Allen ( USA ) to keep us focused in the things we should hold most precious in life.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:09 - ID#206196)
Mozel's 13:54
Mozel- Your 13:54 has brought me out of my lurking status for the moment. BRAVO!! I have long appreciated your posts but found today's post about war thought provoking and so true. Your post should be tatooed to every congressmen's chest for them to ponder and for all to see--- well, at least the male members of congress:- ) Thanks for the stimulating offer.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:14 - ID#286230)
Oh sorry I forgot the US Thanksgiving is later than ours. I thought maybe we were getting instructions for some sort of purification ritual.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:20 - ID#219363)
Sounds reasonable to me. The FED probably wants to keep some powder dry too. *grin*.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:23 - ID#288186)
Closing metals comments by FWN;
New York-Nov. 12-FWN--THE PRECIOUS METALS COMPLEX ENDED the session sharply
higher, being helped by technical considerations as well as increasing tensions in the Middle East.
Dollar/yen movements were also cited.

Fund activity was reported in platinum, gold and silver.

Platinum futures posted one of the sharpest advances for the day, with traders tending to link this
largely to short covering, particularly by the funds.

The gains in gold and silver were linked not only to technical considerations but worries about possible
U.S. military action against Iraq as Iraqi President Saddam Hussein once again refuses to comply with a
U.N. resolution on weapons inspections.

The January platinum contract settled with a gain of $11 to $350.80 and at its high traded up as far as
$351.70, its firmest level since $354 back on Oct. 9.

December palladium gained $4.75 to $278.25 and traded as high as $279, its highest level since
$279.50 on Oct. 29. A couple of traders said there was also some short covering in this metal, although
it was not as pronounced as in platinum.

"There was strong buying by the funds," said one contact of the platinum. "It traded up over a 40-day
moving average that was at $346 and went up through the recent high of $349.80 ( hit one week ago
today ) .

"I think you'll see this was a lot of short covering, when the open interest ( report ) comes out

Said another trader, citing short covering in both platinum and palladium: "It started in Japan this
morning. The price of platinum and palladium in yen terms is sharply higher because dollar/yen is

"So many of the speculative shorts started to take some of their losses, which put the dollar price of
platinum and palladium up."

Said still another trader: "Fund short covering is about all we heard. There's a good deal of it going on."

A couple of contacts said the short covering in platinum was largely the work of funds, although one
specified instead "wealthy individuals." Commitments of Traders data released Friday showed that as of
Nov. 3, the reportable non-commercial category--which includes funds-- was short a net 4,721

Traders tended to link the huge move to short covering rather than any fresh news, despite word out of
Russia this week that Russian shipments of the Platinum Group Metals may be less in 1999 than in the
current year.

"Two days ago, Russians came out and said they were going to export 100 ( metric ) tons of palladium
and 20 ( metric tons ) of platinum next year, which we think will be down from this year and the year
prior," one trader said. "But the market didn't react to that."

Support for January platinum has been put near $335, with resistance roughly at $355. December
palladium is expected to find support at $270 and resistance near $290.

More to follow...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:26 - ID#229207)
Ha! Euro, " deliberate policy of challenging the U.S. dollar."
NEW YORK ( AP ) - Europe's new central bank won't try to contest the dollar's international dominance with its new euro currency, the bank's president said Thursday.

``There will be no deliberate policy of challenging the U.S. dollar,'' Wim Duisenberg said in the text of a speech to the Economic Club of New York.

Intentions have nothing to do with it. If dollar reserve holders liquidate 20% of the dollar holdings to diversify into euros, this may support Lester Thurow's theory: if the euro holds even a marginal promise as a reserve currency, we're likely to see a run on the dollar. Currency traders licking their chops. What can the Fed do to defend the dollar except raise rates?

John Disney
(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:30 - ID#24135)
What's wrong with you ..
Lakefoil ..
Daylight savings time ????
We were talking about how impossible
it was for your brain dead bank to get
a quote on rangold .. remember ??
.. IF the markets overlapped ..
which they dont at present .. your
bank could have phoned and asked
someone in Joburg .. if not they
could pay a small amount for a routine
email ( if they are interested which I
doubt ) ..
.... regarding the measly stock which
I have and am surely not BRAGGING
about .. obviously I did not buy them
last week .. I picked up a few with
some routine limit offers over the last
few months .. I only quoted the actual
number to point out how unimportant it
was to me ... but its none of your business
anyway ..
... Im bored with you .. please go away now
.. enjoyed as much as I can stand ...
... leave me alone with my arrogance .. and you
with your ... ( fill in the blank )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:32 - ID#290281)
Just in from Buenos Aires ....Chuck Harder show
In NYC at the UN, Peter Borley ( spelling? ) U.S. Ambassador to UN

signed the US into the Kioto ( spelling? ) protocol. The US in the next 11 years must cut their energy use by 35%. The senate said do not do this last July 1997 ( resolution 98 ) . The sticker to this is that China, India, Indonesia and Mexico are not signed onto this. There will be severe economic consequences to this in the US. So..... Clinton and Gore will implement this over our dead bodies even tho the senate did not ratify it. Chuck is now talking to Buenos Aires right now by telephone. They also said to go to

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:32 - ID#219363)
Does the FED even want to defend the dollar ? Lower dollar wouldn't hurt our exports at all, same game Japan et al have tried to play by dumping the price of their own currencies. I'd think that a lot of speculators might jump on the Euro wagon, but I'd have a hard time thinking that banks or other organizations would invest too heavilly in it until it's gotten past some baby steps and learned to walk pretty well. It is a brand new currency after-all, and no matter how many plans have been made, how many models they've created, you just never know. I wouldn't think that people would be jumping over one another to bet the baby's milk money.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:33 - ID#254288)
Saber Rattlings

This is just a war based blip for gold. Can't even surely say that they are covering the real problems such LTCM, Brazil and so on.

Perhaps this war stance is to take the heat off WJC and put the recent fiat failures out of mind.

If you don't live off the quick ( 5-10 ) % moves inthe market look into companies like Richmont Mines ( RIC,tor ) and River Gold ( RIV,tor ) these ccompanies operate well, but read Rivers balance sheet carefully as it may not be for you.
Last if you believe that Homestake will not succeed in the take over of Prime Resources Group ( PRU ) , it might pay to visit their site; this is a first class company that produces 12 million annual ounces of silver, besides gold.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:38 - ID#229207)
Gollum -- Reuters made a spelling error in earlier headline: "heal" not "heat"
U.S., Japan suggest new tactics to heal world economy

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia ( AP ) - The United States and Japan suggested new tactics Thursday to fight the world financial crisis as they prepared for talks next week by President Clinton and the leaders of 20 other Pacific Rim countries.

Overshadowing the efforts, though, is that some of the countries have sharp differences on such basic questions as whether free-market trade is good.

Spud Master
(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:44 - ID#11929)
@Shaddowfax & the Kyoto Agreement
Shaddowfax, Clinton's crawling sycohpant negotiators can sign any damn agreement they desire - it doesn't mean squat unlesss the US Senate, as indicated in the US Constitution, votes and approves it.

As for the current administration forcing it "over our dead bodies" - the former US government tried the same in 1776, and got their answer then.

Spud, reject phony, fiat-based unconstitutional Federal Reserve Notes! Buy GOLD!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:48 - ID#194311)
SDRer(10:32)...Wim's bombshell.
Now if we were replace the word "money" in this speech with the word gold it would all make perfect sense.

"...will not react in a mechanistic fashion...".
Control of monetary supply without using interest rates...this is really quite radical and we should watch this very closely....a gold reference value for the euro to maitain price stability?

Methinks yep!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:49 - ID#246224)
I have no pin feathers nor cult. Though a good cold bath in an ice fed stream does wonders for the circulation! Certainly causes one to appreciate the basics ( like warm, dry cloths and hot beverage ) .

T-day ( Thanksgiving ) up coming here in the States.

Winter coming soon enough.

You are in Canada, yes? I lift a glass of iced tea to ya up norte'.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:49 - ID#290281)
More on the cut of 35% energy in US
Dirty deed has been done. It is signed folks. Clinton and Gore have gone around Congress to sign this.It is a legal treaty on the industrial world to NOT USE ENERGY. The industries will go to these countries ( China ect ) where there are no limits on using energy. The average American person must be in compliance with this thing.Will be increased costs of food, gas and electricity. Expect all nuclear plants to shut down. Americans will see and 84% increase in their electric bill for starters. This is nothing but a transfer of wealth from America to other parties. My, my, I've got a headache!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:49 - ID#225273)
Some help please . . .
Am I getting incorrect information, or did Feb 310 calls close at $200?

Anyone happen to know? I thank you in advance.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:49 - ID#288186)
Gold 835,404 - 1,244 troy ounces
Silver 73,999,894 + 0 troy ounces
Copper 69,515 + 0 short tons

Gold Dancer
(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:50 - ID#430221)
Foxman/Cobra on Prechter
I have followed Prechter for many years. He has fallen into the
trap of thinking that he is the best exponent of the Elliot Wave

But he forgets that EWT requires a bent or preconceived notion of what
is going to happen. It was devised this way. Elliot is just a mixture of
3's and 5's which can form into any configuration.

The problem has been him and he fails to see this. He hides behind his
theory. The EWT is never "wrong" so to speak. It does depend on the
observer being correct about the direction of the market and then you
can make Elliot work for you. But if you are wrong about the basic
trend then it can hurt you or keep you on the wrong side of a market.
This has happened to Precheter so much that I DO NOT TRUST his observations concerning the gold market. I have found him to be most

Learn to trust your own observations. THis is the best way of getting
EWT to work for you.


Thanks, GD

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:52 - ID#34459)
CRB Index & XOI Index
Some very encouraging action in these two commodity based indexes going into the close, XAU close looks like a repeat of yesterday, profit taking by the day traders.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:53 - ID#255226)
XAU Waves
Here is the wave count based on a weekly chart as I see it.
week 9/14 low
10/9 wave 1 or A
10/30 a of 2 or a of B
11/6 b of 2 or b of B
now in c of 2 or a of B

once completed a powerful wave 3 or C is next

(Thu Nov 12 1998 15:56 - ID#290281)
Spud Master
You are right, they just said that it is signed but not ratified.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:00 - ID#26793)
Central Fund of Canada (CEF-Amex)
I saw some rights for this fund trading on the Amex today. Does anyone have any information about those?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:00 - ID#246224)
Don't worry, ol' buddy. When Y2K walks through we WILL have a great reduction of energy use whether we wanted to or not :-0

My suggestion is ( Y2K-ness ) - go solar, reduce electrical usage to what is really needed, which is not much. Get a diesel jetta or VW truck. Old technology. Use a bike. Propane tank in ground for cooking and water heating. Wood to heat the hovel.

Mileage may vary.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:00 - ID#34459)
Gold Dancer, a good point.
How right you are, 3's and 5's AND.....ABC's. All of those and moving averages, trend lines, candle sticks, many, many chart patterns and many years of watching all of those......but, YOU still have to be the one to pull the trigger on a position.. Everybody has an opinion, the real experts are anonymous and rich.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:01 - ID#31868)
America better wake up and see this human puke for what they are...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:03 - ID#288186)
Gold Dancer; RIGHT!!! Thanks. I'm fairly new to EWT and especially new
to following Prechter. That's why I commented earlier that I only use it
for very short term analysis. My focus has always been with fundamental
analysis to determine my trading decisions. It has come in handy, though,
to use TA for these short term moves.

I must admit, though, that sticking with fundamentals can and did
burn me over the past two years. My only hope is that fundamentals
will bring back my "personal revenge" against my past trading, and
bring me into a debt free state where we all need to be. Fox-man

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:04 - ID#147201)
SDRer re Duisenberg
What planet is he talking about????

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:09 - ID#290281)
Lets hope this will make those in Y2K denial sit up and take notice.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:10 - ID#341189)
Donald: CEF rts.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:14 - ID#290172)
Kiwi, one unhappily suspects they will offer us a
brightly wrapped basket
Of commodities

Perhaps we might be forgiven our suspicions that they do not truly understand

Sir Leon Britten gave a speech at Cambridge ( to cite an example of their collective cognitive dissonance ) floridly praising monetary stability, citing innumerable events 'brought right' by England's stable monetary policy, without once mentioning that the historical period to which he referred was England under Gold. So. Expect the best. Prepare for the worst?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:15 - ID#153102)
@EJ @War
War is to take booty, prize, territory, slaves, or to exact tribute. Booty is moveables seized on land; prize is vessels and their contents seized on the sea. War is governed by the Law of Nations, the most basic principle of which is Might makes Right.

The pending war action with Iraq is to enforce exaction of tribute, probably, although territory may also be an objective.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:15 - ID#430221)
Memo on the Margin


November 12, 1998

Declare War on Iraq!

Memo To: President Clinton
From: Jude Wanniski
Re: Lets Go to War Again

The new buildup in the Gulf and reports that you are about to order the
bombing of Iraq may be exactly the right thing to do, Mr. President. For
seven years now, Saddam Hussein has managed to keep hidden from the UN
inspectors the weapons of mass destruction we know he still has not
accounted for. As you know, from the memo I sent yesterday to James
Rubin, the Asst. Secy. of State for Public Affairs with a copy to you,
UNSCOM actually has not found ANY weapons of mass destruction since
1991, and they were led to all the weapon sites they did find by the
Iraqi government. My assumption is that you know all this, Mr.
President, and as a result have decided that the only way to be sure we
are going to be safe from those hidden weapons -- or Iraqs capacity to
make new weapons if we lift the sanctions -- is to take over the c
ountry. In other words, we have to drop some bombs on Iraq, and when
they resist by firing slingshots at our cruise missiles, we will have no
choice but to land the Marines and occupy Southern Iraq. The Congress
wisely has authorized $97 million to support the puppet regime you plan
to install in the Southern "No-Fly" zone, which is not all that far from
Baghdad. We can then instruct the UN to permit this puppet regime to
sell the oil from that part of the country, which in due time will
enable them to march to Baghdad and roll up Saddams evil regime.

What a historic adventure, Mr. President. I wish you well. But I do hope
you first ask our Congress to debate the matter and pass a routine
DECLARATION OF WAR. Hardly anyone has noticed that you have been putting
these pieces together, but Sen. Arlen Specter, Republican of
Pennsylvania, has sufficient concern that he has recommended a
full-scale debate and a vote to authorize you to proceed as you are
planning. He does so even while saying he would probably vote to support

The arguments against seeking formal support for military action --
without the support of the UN Security Council or our Gulf War allies --
are well known, Mr. President. It is because you sought to win public
support for unilateral military action in Iraq early this year, by
sending Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and National Security
Advisor Sandy Berger to a town meeting in Ohio, only to have them cut to
bits by ordinary American people who are tired of unnecessary wars. Your
wise and clever advisors suspect that if you ask for public support
through an act of Congress, the American people will turn you down. It
would be nice, I know Mr. President, not to have to bother with
constitutional inhibitions when it comes to using our wonderful military
machine. I think Senator Specter understands that if there is a
full-scale debate, one of his colleagues in the Senate might think of
some argument you have not yet heard from your own circle of advisors.
Perhaps the American people would be able to assist as well, coming up
with thoughts they could relay to you through their representatives in
the House and Senate.

It shouldnt take very long, Mr. President. If the Congress agrees with
your arguments, you will be able to start bombing in no time at all.

U.N. Pulls Workers From Iraq.
Israel Opens Gas Mask Depots As Iraq Crisis Looms.
U.S. Orders Warplanes, 3,000 Troops To Gulf .
U.S. Says Non-Essential Staff Can Leave Israel, Kuwait.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:15 - ID#252150)
If Greenspam eases next week, with this froth still in the mkts, he will be signalling
that we are facing a fin disaster which is insoluble.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:18 - ID#246224)
Dates to watch
November 17th .......... Leonid Meteor Shower ( satellite tests? )
Mid December .......... Year end data cleanup
End December .......... Companies announced "WE are NOT DONE fixing!" notices ( more than people are comfortable with )
1st Week January ....... Crash time in data centers, word leaks out
Rest of January ........ Stumble through patching operations
1st Week February ...... Crash of FY2000 systems - retailers&others
Rest of February ....... Stumble through patching systems
Late February .......... News that some systems can not be fixed, some organization face crisis ( bancrupcy )
1st Quarter ............ Media starts its 'investigative reporting' phase
later 1st Qtr .......... US Government establishes 'emergency' team
Mid to end of March .... Heightened anxioty re: FY2000 roll over - Japan, Canada and State of New York
All of April ........... Hysteria as major systems die in multiple governments in full public view, panics begin in earnest
April 1999 ............. Some models GE turbofan engines fail diagnostics


Then again it could happen earlier than this.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:19 - ID#34459)
APH---My Wave Count
APH, while I surely respect your right to express your opinion as to your current wave count... Here is my YEARLY wave count and current opinion of the present status.

1974---1980 Culmination of Wave ( ONE )

1981---1985-6 Culmination of Wave ( TWO )

1986-1987 small wave 1

1988 until this year ----a 2 wave

We could now see after 18 and one half years...The BIG ( THREE )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:19 - ID#31868)
mozel, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...if territory is what the Jack's ass Deserter
in Chief is after I pity the fine men and women under his command...

Aragorn III
(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:24 - ID#212323)
A nation capable of a quote (and attitude) like this has perhaps lost its perspective.
From Reuters: "'There's more of a focus on whether Greenspan will go ( and cut rates next week ) rather than if we bomb Iraq,' said Susan Huang, head of U.S. fixed income at Chase Asset Management. 'Iraq is not really a major topic.'"

got a grip?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:24 - ID#230216)
Spuds......gotta kuick kitco kwestion........
for my spudacious friend.....

I am curious. When you say you reject the FRN's as phony what, pray tell, do you use when in the store stocking up on freeze dried foods and canned foods and ammo and coleman stoves and cheeze-in-a-can and ritz crackers and generators etc. It is the acceptable currency in the US. Many people ( myself included ) in the US will disagree with you and say that their FedResNotes are in fact not phony.

Spudders ( friend ) , please send me all your remaining phony-notes. I will see that they are properly disposed of ( winkage ) .

Good to see you back you ole 'tater you........missed yer posts.... await more stuff from the one who is of potatoephenom


(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:25 - ID#246224)
Have you ever experienced a panic first hand? Been hemmed in by those who panic? Been carried away with the crowd? If you live in the USA you probably have never seen it happen.

We know that in 1999, sooner or later, people will panic with regard to Y2K issues. The question is, 'Will you be ready or not?'.

Panics to expect:

Paper currency runs on banks
Bank runs as banks topple
Stock and bond runs
Food panics
Energy panics
supply panics

The only thing we will not have in short supply is panic. Plenty to go around.

Are you out of the way yet, or will you insist on waiting till things start up? Everyone will choose.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:30 - ID#31868)
Herr Clintler...speak up...what was the deal you made with the Chinese Military on your pention

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:33 - ID#229207)
Whatever is done in Iraq is done for the sole purpose of maintaining the flow of cheap oil to the West. Cheap oil is the lifeblood of the West. Two enemies of cheap oil: too little confict and oil producers get together to set prices; too much conflict and the supply is interrupted. Iraq is threatening the latter. The end game this time is to remove the threat completely. The other Arab states know this and are backing away as fast as they can. They may also not want to be seen on the side of Iraq should Iraq retaliate in some unseemly way that rouses the darker violent passions of the US public.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:34 - ID#153102)
Thanks for posting. The American people must arrest the course of this wild, war mongering government they have inherited. But, until they realize they are its enemy by law and that deception is the art of war, it will careen from worse to worse, I fear.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:37 - ID#290172)
Trivial Pursuit

Care to guess what currency made the first move up in gold?

On 11/3/98 it was at 2394.83
On 11/11/98 it was at 2431.99
The Chinese yuan...but it doesn't trade?
Sniff, sniff, sniff

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:37 - ID#343171)
JTF Minto I remember used freon as media

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:42 - ID#255226)
I hope you're right. I'm to short term to worry about the giant picture.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:42 - ID#252150)
An oil analyst revealed the main reason for USG intransigence & their
determination to attack Iraq. Apparently the original agreement for oil sales was in USD. Their share of mkt has increased at the expense of other oil dependant economies, thereby increasing delationary pressures.

Therefore Iraqi oil has to be sharply curtailed, regardless of how many more children have to die.

Jimmy Carter is going to embarress the admin on TV later today. But he won't get through to the braindead, who will be watching WFW.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:46 - ID#430221)
Fundamental or technical analysis is always the battle. Both are
necessary. The benefit to me of using EWT is that I can make an
assumption on what is going to happen and if the waves turn out that
way then I keep making the same assumption. The trick is to bail out
when this does not happen. Too often I have used fundamental analysis
( like the gold market ) to keep me in when it would have been better to sell.

But sometimes I have choosen correctly and made a bunch.

I find the EWT useful on the long term monthly charts-years and years
of price history. This is where I begin. Then and only then do I look
at the short term to try and get an entry point. Also using elliot if
I can, but also time of year, and also how much do I want to own it!!

EWT does not give us the length of time it might take or the size
of the move in advance. Prechter says he can do this but I think his record speakes for itself= only in his imagination!!

SO when I look at gold I like the fundamentals. The long term chart
looks OK but would have looked better if gold had not broken $375 or so.

SO I don't know what to think about this. It is a serious breakdown
of a chart which shows me that other forces are at work here that I do
not understand or control.

But I know one thing. We have had two bull markets in gold or legs
1 and 3 and therefor I expect to see leg 5 or the third and final
bull market in gold. Then I look at the stock market and see that the
over valuation is extreme. So I say gold stocks are the best place to
be. I don't know when it will start or how high it will go. This can
only be seen and refined as the gold bull starts and goes on its way.

I also know that it is possible for the Dow and POG to come very
close in price. Another clue to keep in mind.

I also know that the political situation in the US with Clinton as
dictator is bad.

I am also aware of the EURO.

I am aware that other countries will not let the US dominate the world
for ever.

I am also aware that nobody, except a small handful of 'nuts" likes gold.

I am aware that a large number of "nuts" likes the DOW.

I am finally aware that buying the small nut is the best way to
get a big nut in return. It will simply grow into one, where as an
already large nut just might rot on the ground and die.

Thanks, GD

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:47 - ID#290172)
EJ"no DELIBERATE challenge"
Can't read it like an honest man EJ! {:- ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:48 - ID#153102)
The demand made on Iraq, to which it has not complied, is for obedience to arbitrary rules and regulations. Involuntary obedience is tribute.

The price of oil is low and dropping. Iraq wants to add to the already abundant supply. USG wants obedience to its regulation forbidding Iraq to pump and sell. The war action is for tribute from Iraq.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:50 - ID#229207)
He sure is politically correct for the crowd he's addressing, no?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:54 - ID#225284)
Based on the election results, the American people apparently don't care if their President is a perjurer and an obstructionist of justice. Why should they care if Saddam has some VX nerve gas, especially when we literally have tons of the stuff in bunkers right here at home. This whole military facade is such an international embarassment, how can Americans expect to be respected when they travel abroad. Those days are long gone my friends and you have Billy Boy and his incompetent State Dept. to thank for it. There is little to no support for this action by the rest of the world for a reason. It is much ado about nothing. Period.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:55 - ID#282207)
According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, the European Central Bank ( ECB ) plans to increase its gold and foreign exchange reserves next year by between 130 and 180 billion European currency units ( ECUs ) . The report said the increase would come from the national central banks and would be in addition to the 39.46 billion ECUs they are due to hand over to the ECB at next January's debut of the Economic and Monetary Union ( EMU ) .

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:57 - ID#229207)
And all are resigned to the excercise of violence by the dominant foreign state to keep less powerful states in their place in the order of things:

``Kuwait cannot stop a superpower from taking certain steps,'' said Kuwait's Sheik Sabah al-Ahmed al-Sabah after the meeting in Doha, Qatar, of foreign ministers from Syria and Egypt as well as six Persian Gulf states: Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

Mr. Mick
(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:57 - ID#345321)
T#1 - I'm half way through The Sovereign Individual...
Fantastic book!! Mozel, have you read it??? Gotta go....:- )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 16:57 - ID#31868)
hand out the caulk guns and tell the middle east and oil suppliers in general to
drop windows...the things is garbage greed politics from the gitgo...yup...uh huh...iffin it don't come out of USA soil it should be illegal...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:02 - ID#252150)
IMO, Clintler is the most despicable leader in modern history & possibly all
hitory. Even a monster like Hitler had the guts to actually fight in a war & risk his life. At least Genghis Kahn & Tamerlane personally led their warriors. Clintler is a murderous coward who commits genocide from afar.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:05 - ID#290172)
Allen(USA) @14.59 -"anything to do with gold"

Safe to bet that gold is-at the very least-a component of the "value reference".
Some strange stuff coming down in the currencies. Maybe something will "turn up"bbml

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:16 - ID#229207)
Propaganda machine in top gear
Lugar suggests U.S. go after Saddam Hussein

WASHINGTON ( AP ) - Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., urged the Clinton administration on Thursday to follow up any airstrikes on Iraq with a full-fledged military campaign to remove Saddam Hussein from power. ``It is conceivable Saddam might be killed,'' he said.

Lugar, a senior voice on foreign policy matters, told a news conference that the Clinton administration should finish the job begun by President Bush in the Gulf War. He conceded that U.S. ground forces, and bomber pilots, would be necessary for such a campaign - unless Saddam were killed in an initial wave of air attacks.

He said Saddam should be removed ``from effective leadership.'' And if that couldn't be achieved without targeting Saddam and killing him? ``I suspect then he will have to be killed,'' Lugar said.

``You know, you can use a novelist's imagination to figure out where Saddam might end up in this process,'' Lugar added. ``All I'm suggesting is I don't want him with his hands on the trigger and effective ability to build weapons of mass destruction and order their use.''

Aragorn III
(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:24 - ID#212323)
tolerant1...may want to rethink your 16:57 (---and StudiO.R)
"...iffin it don't come out of USA soil it should be illegal..." You'd need to annex your southern neighbor, or else send that Patron back home...which is probably well on its way, though greatly diffused by the Atlantic by now? heh, heh...

As I noted yesterday evening, they have been treating gold properly in Sydney the past two days. We shall see this continue, perhaps?

And speaking of treating gold right, I suggested that StudiO.R might consider rubbing his wound with gold. I meant to further add that the gold will no doubt bear up well under such indignity ( considering the nature of the wound... ( ! ) ... ) as it has had much practice over the past year looking at its cash value.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:24 - ID#153102)
@EJ @ by the consent of the governed
States and Nations and the people in them resent the use of force for selfish ends just as the bullied resents the selfish bully on the playground.

So long as USG was perceived to be acting for the general or common benefit of all nations while exerting force around the globe, its actions had consent.

But, it seems to many that USG is now using force and fraud to preserve a selfish advantage for its currency without regard for the interests of other sovereigns. As consent is withdrawn, more force and fraud will be required to obtain an equal amount of co-operation from them. This is the trend in prospect, domestically and internationally.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:40 - ID#119358)
@StudioR Productions, in conjunction with TolerantOne Enterprises, .....
takes pride in announcing the exciting inception of plans for a Great Event that will stir the hearts of all patriotic 'Merkans and will be remembered years from now as the sea change occurrence that set our misguided country back on course. I, studio.R, am pleased to convey to you now the official name of this Great Event, it is.....THE MILLION MAN PISS ON!!!!

The date will be April 19, 1999 and the location will be the Grounds in front of the White House. A special area for female attendees will be designated, this area will provide privacy for bashful squatters. Beer will be provided to insure adequate contribution from each attendee.

Great speeches will be Great Kitco Patriots like Sir MOzel, TOlerant One, James the Fifth and countless others!!! Raucous music will be performed by Studio.R and Friends....singing his soon to be a hit solo bullet: PEE LIKE YOU MEAN IT.

Stay tuned...tell your patriotic friends...IT'S FREE! COME ONE....COME ALL!!!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:44 - ID#153102)
@Lugar Next week he may say "Mmurder the Japanese Premier"
if Japan does not obey an edict to reduce transistor production. Will the world long give tribute to a government of murderers ?

Voyeur Professor
(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:46 - ID#231112)


Was it today's "Wall Street Journal" that carried the news of increased ECU gold reserves? Your news comes on the heels of Duisenberg's obtuse reference to establishing a "reference value for monetary growth" which several of us have speculated might mean a dramatic commitment by the Central Bank to increasing its percentage of gold reserves. Now, you tell us that's exactly what they intend to do. I might be overplaying the significance of such a decision, but I can't see how it doesn't represent a very meaningful commitment that will prove very bullish for gold if it happens. Earlier in the year, much talk on this site was preoccupied with the percentage of gold reserves the Euro Bank would announce. There was much disappointment with the relatively low figure of approximately 10%. You all may recall that many argued that the Euro Bank should hold no gold at all! If, and I would hasten to emphasize the subjunctive mood here, IF, if the bank actually does increase its gold reserves, then we may safely assume they were playing possum when they committed themselves to a modest gold percentage. Have they been buying gold in the meantime? I may be wrong--and certainly I have proven quite often in my attempts to understand this paradoxical gold bear--but I would venture that this announcement ( if true ) could prove the catalyst of change for 18 years of gold bashing. Any comments?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:49 - ID#288140)
bumper stickers seen on internet











I especially like that last one. Wonder if they have anything to say about POG..

Dont take no wooden nickels..

- sam

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:49 - ID#288186)
Przytula; Don't know if you got a reply, but yes, Feb 310 gold call closed
at premium of 200. Here's a handy website for options....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:55 - ID#288186)
sam; Here's another good bumper sticker...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 17:57 - ID#288186)
trying again....Good options website...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:00 - ID#288140)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:01 - ID#219363)
Russia To Restructure Foreign Debt
MOSCOW ( AP ) -- Russia plans to seek a second restructuring of its Soviet-era foreign debt, the deputy finance minister says, a move likely to further undermine the government's sullied reputation among foreign creditors. Russia inherited about $260 billion in Soviet debt, much of it from loans to developing countries that defaulted. Under a 1996 restructuring agreement, Russia was granted a grace period through 2002, during which it only has to make debt service payments. But even that is proving too much. Deputy Finance Minister Mikhail Kasyanov said in an interview published Thursday that Russia would be asking creditors for some ``breathing space on the payments of the debt in the next year or two.'' The Soviet-debt payments are part of the $17.5 billion in foreign debt that Russia was to pay creditors next year. The government previously indicated it wants to reschedule the payments.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:08 - ID#373403)
Tomahawk Diplomacy(c)
This will not be seen as effective any longer. It is obvious that our foreign policy is being run on an ad hoc basis and these missile fascades which are meant to denote military action will be viewed as weakness. It is weakness to threaten force by sending machines in to do a mans work. Especially if the machines dont finish the work. Sending missiles implies that the president cannot muster popular support for a ground action so he must conduct the operation with an arm tied behind his back.
There is no popular support for ground action into the Middle East. The American people are not so stupid as to believe the "weapons of mass destruction" propaganda which is trotted out by the loyal media always just before our next missile attack. The American people are not willing to die for oil and the politicians realize this. That is the reason for the "preserving democracy" window dressing.

I am not advocating sending our citizens into harms way. I am only saying that if we are going to have a military action then lets really do it. Otherwise stick to diplomacy and I don't mean to say that we have engaged in diplomacy since Clinton took office. I have been continuously horrified at what comes out of our state department. William Cohen, Madeleine Albright, and Robert Rubin have disgraced our nation with their sophomoric handling of foreign policy.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:09 - ID#219363)
Mortgage Rates Rise to 3-Month High
WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The average interest rate on 30-year fixed-rate mortgages rose for the third consecutive week to a three-month high of 6.93 percent this week, Freddie Mac, the mortgage company, said Thursday. Five weeks ago, the average dipped to 6.49 percent, a 31-year low, as investors scared by global financial turmoil shifted money into the United States. Still, the average has remained below 7 percent for 22 consecutive weeks. It reached 7.22 percent in late April, its peak for the year so far. Fifteen-year mortgages, a popular option for refinancing, averaged 6.57 percent, up from 6.50 percent.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:10 - ID#31868)
Third in the House of ARAGORN, Namaste' gulp and a puff...roughly 30 years of this
environmental conversation and by and large nothing has been done... leadership...why...everybody is for sale...plain and simple...

If America was presented with the facts...we could easily win the energy challenge which faces us...easily...instead we get to hear from Jack's ass EnviroWhore Gore and every schlep in Hollywood whose blood runs green...dollar green...look into how much they get paid for appearances for their favorite causesrole models my Island that is Long assrolls of dollarshypocrites

I am am spitting mad also because I think the Fed has started to print the cartons and packs of Winston cigarettes and they are as every bit as ugly as the new 20 and 50 dollar commie bills just introduced...yuk!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:10 - ID#219363)
Turkey Govt. on Brink of Collapse
ANKARA, Turkey ( AP ) -- Turkey's government, the fourth in three years, bordered on collapse Thursday when a key ally defected over a privatization scandal and a coalition partner threatened to withdraw support. The Republican People's Party brought a no-confidence motion against Prime Minister Mesut Yilmaz, siding with two opposition parties that lodged similar motions a day earlier. The motions accuse Yilmaz, head of the center-right Motherland Party, of abusing his power and being linked to organized crime. With the pivotal Republicans turning on him, Yilmaz' 16 month-old government has little hope of survival. Its chances were further undermined Thursday when the Democratic Turkey Party said it was considering pulling out of the ruling coalition. The question of Turkey's political future hangs over a country already struggling with scandals involving state corruption and an ongoing power struggle between the secular establishment and political Islamic movement.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:14 - ID#229207)
Voyeur Professor
Might explain the riddle: while some CBs have been selling for the past couple of years while the price of gold maintains a relatively stable range, then someone is buying. Some say it's oil producers. Others say its other CBs.

I keep hearing from various sources that Europeans are responsible for the big run-up in the price of St. Gaudens $20 gold. They seem to have a thing for gold, those Old World types.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:15 - ID#219363)
Bank of America OKs $187M in Claims
SAN FRANCISCO ( AP ) -- Bank of America has agreed to pay $187.5 million to settle claims by the state and more than 300 local governments that it mismanaged municipal bond accounts and cheated them of hundreds of millions of dollars. The lawsuit, which was started in 1995, accused the bank of fraud, negligence, and conspiracy to cover up wrongdoing. It was based in part on allegations from a whistleblower who charged the bank was robbing the state through illegal practices. The suit alleged the bank charged excessive fees on bond trust accounts, kept unclaimed municipal funds that should have been turned over to the state and tried to conceal errors and mismanagement. The bank admitted some isolated accounting errors and returned about $41 million to some local governments, including the state, but denied any large-scale misconduct.
Weird, I posted two things and it seems to have turned everything Blue! Sorry guys, dunno what I did wrong, just posting stuff like usual.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:16 - ID#431200)
Donald Central Fund of Canada

Try this Web Address:

Email Address:

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:16 - ID#229207)
Woohoo! Duty calls.
Time for beers at the local pub!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:18 - ID#254321)
Cut energy consumption by 35%
All: In principle this is an admirable plan. Complements of our politicians, the alternative energy renewable resource program started after the 1972 ( date? ) Oil crisis is now nearly still life.

Fortunately there are a few pioneers ( die hards? ) still slugging it out, some of them associates of mine. Everyone heard of Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountatin Institute? I do not know him personally, but I do think his work is admirable. Real Goods, Inc if you have not heard about it, has a great alternative energy catalogue, though it is a little pricey. Lots of tidbits for the engineering types.

So -- what worries me is that we apparently have signed some sort of international agreement, probably with few of the real alternative energy Guru's like Amory Lovins involved. Some sort of plan needs to be made up so that we don't find ourselves buried in directives that can't be met. Or ones that cause unneeded financial hardship. It will take time to restart the alternative anergy programs our illustrious leaders shut down in their brilliant shortsightedness -- another item ( like education -- Tax deductions/rebates on college ) that our supposedly 'Green'/'Pro-education 'leaders forgot to work on after their election in 1992. Congress is also to blame. The Republicans missed a great opportunity for energy independence. And -- an opportunity to revive our local energy resource program -- though that would be long term, unfortunately given the low price of oil. Admittedly they would have a problem with their pro-'big' business stance.

My reasoning is that we must trim our energy useage at the very least so that we do not become hostage to another MidEast crisis. We should be using our valuable oil ( nonrenewable ) for making plastics -- not sending it up the smokestake to make electricity. Just wait till 2010-2015 and oil goes out of sight.

I still remember that Windmill company that went belly up about three years ago -- Windmere I think it was called.

I'm not sure it is right to let off 'scott-free' certain countries such as China -- but we must lead by example as a mature industrial nation that should know better. Once we have done better with the techology our alternative energy 'diehards' have developed, we will be in a better position to encourage other countries to do the same. And -- a nice side benefit will be that we will see less smog between the cars in LA, and we will not have perpetual sore throats when the inversions occur ( I did ) . And -- we would not have to tell our children to stay inside when the pollution gets bad.

Anyone remember what the Chicago river used to look like, or the those two rivers in Pittsburgh -- Monongahela and ? Anyone see La Jolla, Calif recently? Not anywhere near as clean as it used to be.

How about that low pollution coal ( in Utah? ) that our 'Green Leaders' made off-limits? I wonder -- did our leader's Indonesian friends the Riadys ever get anywhere with their plans to sell us the low pollution coal? Bet that plan is dead in the water after the SEAsian crisis. Pollutiongate? Nice ring to it.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:24 - ID#219363)
U.S. To Hunt for Chilean Treasure
SANTIAGO, Chile ( AP ) -- A U.S. expedition to search for 18th century pirate treasure on Robinson Crusoe island has been approved by Chilean authorities.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:24 - ID#31868)
tip O the moneyberg...yup...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:27 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 29.73. The 233 day moving average is 28.97

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:29 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .274. The 233 day moving average is .248

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:29 - ID#34459)
Gold Mutual Funds Closing Prices
FWIW........Have just updated the closing prices and charts of several gold mutual funds I follow. We are going to see a very good run soon, they are in the ( coil ) position....a lightning fast upmove is dead ahead.


(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:36 - ID#26793)
@Carl, Goldteck
Thanks. Missed that one.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:42 - ID#411259)
..... Today .....

Was a good day.......


(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:42 - ID#26793)
Dollar weakness blamed on a variety or reasons.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:43 - ID#219363)
The more things change ...
Gold is now selling in Richmond at four dollars premium; that is, Confederate Scrip has so far depreciated as to require five dollars of it to purchase one dollar in gold. What is the cause of this depreciation? The Richmond papers attribute it to the demand for coin by the blockade runners, for the purposes of trade. But this demand must be comparatively small and unable to produce such a general and extensive depreciation. The true explanation must be found in the fact that the people of the South are beginning to distrust their own cause, and, in the desire to save something out of the general wreck, are investing in European securities, or hoarding gold in the hope of "better days a-coming." The tone of their own papers seems to confirm this view. This is one of the most cheering signs of the times. If gold were selling at four hundred per cent premium here, we should all agree that we were "going to the dogs," as fast as our legs could carry us. But look at the contrast: Gold is only thirty-seven or forty per cent premium here; our securities have a ready and available market, while the English capitalists come forward and propose to lend us a hundred millions in gold, at par, or at the regular rates of exchange. Why this equally sudden appreciation of Northern securities? It finds an easy explanation in the recent uprising of the conservative element over the whole country, and its declaration that the war must be brought back to its legitimate purpose, and must be prosecuted with vigor, for it "has never agreed, does not now agree, and has no intention of agreeing in future to a dissolution of the Union." From this stand point we can not fail to see, in the financial condition and prospects of the two sections, a ray of hope for the future.

Bill Buckler
(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:47 - ID#256381)
Chart - Gold in the '90s
With the move to $US 297.50 ( spot month GCZ8 ) , Gold is back above both 20 and 40 week MAs and is back to the narrow $US 296-300 range it was in back in early October, before the rate cuts and the Dow explosion.

I've put up a new chart at The Privateer website. This one is a $US 2 x 3 Point and Figure chart back to 1990. You can see what happened during the Gulf war on the chart. But more to the point is the situation on the chart right now. It's as tight as it can be.

This is an excellent chart for seeing at a glance the importance of the $US 300 level.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:47 - ID#288140)
JTF off topic
You probably already know about this..I may have lost some of it. From F. Cook, I think.
- s


The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by Department of Energy scientists. The element, tentatively named Administratium, has no protons or electrons and thus has an atomic number of 0. However, it does have 1 neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice and general neutrons and 111 assistant vice neutrons. This gives it an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together in a nucleus by a force that involves the continuous exchange of meson-like particles called morons. Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert. However, it can be detected chemically as it impedes every reaction it comes in contact with. According to discoverers, a minute amount of Administratium caused one reaction to take over four days to complete, when it would normally occur in less than one second. Administratium has a normal half-life of approximately three years, at which time it does not actually decay, but instead, undergoes a reorganization in which assistant neutrons, vice neutrons and assistant vice neutrons exchange places. Some studies have shown that the atomic weight actually increases after each reorganization. Research by outside consultants indicate that Administratium occurs naturally in atmospheres with high density levels. It tends to concentrate at certain points such as federal government agencies, in the Department of Motor Vehicle Agencies in several States, and, some fear, it was the element that flourished in many of the nation's Savings and Loans Companies. Technologists point out that Administratium is know to be toxic at any level of concentration and can easily destroy any productive reactions where it is allowed to accumulate. Attempts are being made to determine how Administratium can be controlled to prevent irreversible damage, but results to date are not promising.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:48 - ID#26793)
Glamis news

(Thu Nov 12 1998 18:58 - ID#220325)
Cobra re your 11:18 to APH

APH is one of Kitco's most respected long term contributors. He has unselfishly provided us with continuous updates as to his trades. He is always a gentleman who respects the opinions of others without comment or qualification. I hope to be able to say the same of you after several years of contributions such as his. It would be a great loss to this site if he left, much more so than the loss of many others. His advice is given freely and without qualification, let's respect him for this in the nature of our comments to him.

Your insights are apprectiated and merit consideration.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:02 - ID#432148)
Homestake - Von Finck wants 25%
and why he wants it:

And he does not like the Eruo.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:08 - ID#219363)
Japan Unveils Stimulus Package
TOKYO ( AP ) -- Japan's ruling party presented a new recession rescue blueprint Thursday, but the stimulus package -- Japan's largest ever -- failed to lift gloom among business leaders and economists. The United States and other nations have been pressuring Japan to show more initiative in halting its economic slide and leading the region out of crisis. Instead of hope, however, Thursday's $147 billion tax cut and spending proposal was greeted by a sharp fall in Tokyo's main stock index, skepticism among economic analysts, and widespread indifference on local news broadcasts. ``There is a feeling of slight disappointment,'' said Masaaki Higashida, deputy general manager of investment information and services at Nomura Securities. ``The package didn't go beyond what was already known.'' The ruling Liberal Democratic Party's proposal includes $81 billion in public works-related spending through next March and $33 billion in income tax cuts next year. Another $33 billion was expected in corporate tax cuts and other tax relief measures.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:09 - ID#194311)
EJ a classic post, we shall never forget.
It goes like this and it's as old as the hills themselves.

Banker Gold Holder: Hey you, you want to make your life better?
Joe Sheople: Yep.
BGH : Okay, tell you what I'll give you a debt so you can live better and you can me your gold in case you can't pay the debt.
JS : Well what if I can't pay my debt?
BGH : That's okay we will make the interest rate low and you'll do fine.
JS : Okay, here's my gold.
BGH : Here's your debt, go and have fun.

Few years later....

BGH : Hmmm Joe seems like you can't make you payments?
JS : Well I just don't understand it, the harder I work the less I earn.
BGH : Yes, yes we know we're the ones making you paper money worthless.
JS : But what shall I do? I can't go on like this.
BGH : That's okay Joe, tell you what we're so generous we'll clear your debt and keep your gold.
JS : Thanks.
BGH : Oh, also we have just made the paper extinct also and the new money is......GOLD.....we'll I'll be darned we've got it all!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:11 - ID#31868)
Making People Happy
Al Gore and all the Clintons are flying on Air Force One. Bill looks at Al, chuckles and says, "You know, I could throw a $100 bill out the window and make one person very happy."

Al shrugs his stiff shoulders and says, "Well, I could throw ten $10 bills out the window and make ten people very happy."

Hillary tosses her perfectly styled hair and says, "I could throw one hundred $1 bills out the window and make one hundred people very happy."

Chelsea rolls her eyes, looks at all of them, and says, "Heck, I could throw all of you out the window and make the whole country happy."

Mr. Mick
(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:15 - ID#345321)
Well, since my questions on this forum are continually ignored.........
I'll ask Bart to discontinue my access. Thanks, guys.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:18 - ID#194311)
Cliton's deadly sphere of influence.

Call me paranoid but isn't there a pattern here?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:20 - ID#30345)
more missing yen

Japan Firms Lack 60-80 Trln Yen
In Pension Reserves
TOKYO ( Nikkei ) -Companies are facing a combined
shortage of 60-80 trillion yen in reserves for corporate
pensions and retirement allowances, according to private
research organizations.

Unfunded pension liabilities of nonfinancial businesses
with capital of 100 million yen or more total 59.7 trillion
yen, according to an LTCB Research Institute Inc. report
released Thursday.

This is out of a total of 110 trillion.
Who was it here who said C_A_P_I_T_A_L___E_V_A_P_O_R_A_T_I_O_N

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:25 - ID#43349)
Japanese banks now doing "great"

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:25 - ID#30345)
Ain't it the truth. When they are in position the sheeple shall see the shift.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:32 - ID#30345)
Japan banks encouraged to borrow. (same URL as below)
Banks Urged To Increase Requests

For Public Money

TOKYO ( Nikkei ) -Hakuo Yanagisawa, minister without

portfolio in charge of financial revitalization, said

Thursday that he hopes banks will make full use of the 25

trillion yen in public funds set aside to replenish capital.

The call was seen as urging banks to apply for larger

infusions. Currently, the big banks still appear reluctant

and are considering applying only for sums of between

100 billion yen and 500 billion yen.

He stressed the large infusions of public money were

necessary, despite fears among the finance industry about

the burden in paying it back.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:35 - ID#411259)
..... Stuff .....

Kiwi -
The only way gold will be at 3-2-5 by November 25
If they give two twenty dollar bill with every ounce

Longj @ 14:04
Excellent analysis.

Allow me to turn it on you a bit:

"Why is the dollar more portable? The dollars portability is derived largely from faith and trust" You wrote.

Could it be that the faith and trust of gold
Has suffered at the claws of a merciless bear?

Gold is lacking in both faith and trust

For a time, yes?

For a time..

Envy -
You quoted, "American Eagle, 1 troy oz. $314.03"

I sell 'em at $311.40

All -
Gold has room to drop.
Lease rates about .6%
Dollar went UP
Gold will go down
Still looking
For $285


(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:47 - ID#194311) being the they,I might just take you up on that but promise the
are you offering two brand new US$20 toilet paper sheets with every ounce of gold?

Sounds like an excellent promotion for gold, good thinking.

I might just take you up that but do you promise the paper won't be worthless before my children need it?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:48 - ID#298259)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:51 - ID#119358)
@Mr. MickO..............
who luv's you, baby? you da' man.....

now, ask ol' studio a question......I'll give ya' 9:1 I won't know the answer...but that never stops me.....ask awaaay... Salud!!! to YA!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:58 - ID#30345)
@rj ......more beer suds babble.
Why is the dollar more portable? The dollars portability is derived largely from faith and trust. Parties involved in transactions trust that values will remain stable ( relatively ) during the course of a transaction. Transaction parties even go so far as to index the value of transactions relative to time ( options and futures ) . As the deterioration rate of any currency is linked to usury rates that compensate for the time losses of money, and the actual rate offered will probably be less than the actual rate of deterioration, we have an idea where mistrust might arise. ( This difference known as real interest rates can enable lenders to make money. ) Another source of mistrust comes from sudden changes the the deterioration rate. The very cyclical nature of the money supply and credit rates means that a winner and a loser is guaranteed for each time based transaction. We can have infaltion and growth numbers mis-reported this also breeds mistrust. As do the misallocation of tax dollars, and socio-monetary policy inconsistencies. The oportunities for fiat debasement suggest why the dollar should be less durable than gold.

Yes the dollar is not my choice for money it is the choice of people who choose to exploit the less informed and influential. For the moment we are at their mercy, accumulate and minimize the impact.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 19:59 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff...I don't care if nobody else shows up...I
say we make the golden statement the White House lawn matches the stripe down the Deserter In Chief's back...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:01 - ID#320136)
Live, Lurk and Learn
Signed off prematurely last night, before having
the opportunity to enjoy your response at 00:02. It
seems I checked off more statements than I care to
admit to at this point, BUT, when gold goes to $15,000, ( I'm
willing to compromise... ) I'll say that it was all worth it.
I'd also add symptoms #21 + 22.

21 ) Suffering severe tremors when kitco site takes too looooooong
to load, or fails to load at all... ( God forbid! ) Breaking into
a cold sweat when at last resorting to rebooting the
'puter to try and try again, in a desperate panic for Kitco
to register so I can get my "GOLD MARKET FIX".

22 ) Same old same old dire predictions of market crashes and
ridiculous ruminations of soon-to-be stratospheric numbers
in gold, making long time friends shudder and cringe at having to endure yet ANOTHER pathetic sermon of the Big Bad Bull.

So... these days I just LIVE, LURK and LEARN. At least you
guys won't have me committed.

got sanity ( and golf )

Oh, and by the way, I'd like to nomininate an extremely
succint post by EJ of Nov 10 at 16:21, to the Kitco Hall
of Fame. In case any of you missed it, it puts a tiger
in your gold tank! ( now where did THAT come from? ) GO GOLD!!!!


(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:03 - ID#386245)
Mr. Mick
You can't leave yet, mate. I haven't even seen your questions. Don't think you are being ignored. Often the people with the answers just aren't on line at the time and questions must be repeated. Hang in there, as everyone's opinions are valued.
Who was that posting under my name last night???

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:05 - ID#31868)
Mr. Mick, Namaste' gulp and a puff...c'mon now...I know YOU don't have onion skin
and I know you can take the heat in the Kitco Kitchen...

Mr. Mick
(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:05 - ID#345321)
Studio.R, Bless you, you almost changed my mind :-)............................
But I already sent Bart the email. I know I don't contribute much to the thoughts of most of the day traders here, but a little cyber-interaction is nice if one can find it.
I must say I have learned a lot here, but at the expense of sifting through the piles of nasty comments, personal attacks, etc. that others have complained about.
Sometimes I think Kitcoites are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. But even with Y2K, the world economy isn't going to come to a grinding halt. It will change dramatically, there's no doubt.
As one person said today on NPR, "you don't manage change, you just try to stay ahead of it."
The direction we are headed still is, IMHO, an electronic form of money, and gold is likely to become a factor only in transition periods ( like now ) . The world is not going to go back to using gold as money, but there will be enclaves of people working a feudal system that may use it as a common barter medium.
My final prognostications on the subject. God bless you all, especially Tolerant1, who has helped me immensely.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:08 - ID#320136)
Hey Mr. Mick....Yo...!
Just tell 'em yer female, they'll stand up and
take notice, yep! I yusta get ignored all the
time.... well still sorta do... but who cares!
GO GOLD!!!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:08 - ID#249244)
Old Soldier
I.m just curious - do you think that US military is
capable of conducting a SUCCESSFUL operation by the
team of 150-250 people, which will have as its purpose
to kill Saddam Hussein, just by attacking his residence,
shooting guards, etc...something similar to the operation
succesfully conducted by Soviet paratroopers against Amin
in Afganistan? In 1979 in was pretty straight forward
attack by trained special force, and they just killed them million dollar missles or political statements.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:09 - ID#31868)
Mr. Mick, Namaste' gulp and a puff...Bart's email can handle more than one errant addition...if you are going to stay ahead as NPR put it...what if you are wrong and gold does take back its rightful role as the only real and trusted money on the planet...what then...Kitco becomes a fish tank in which you do not participate...

got change of heart...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:19 - ID#25257)
Gollum, Reify, White Shiney-stuff People;
Looks like your read on silver three weeks ago is right on. This looks like a short-term move. HL, CDE and etc. seem to be doing well. Huh?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:21 - ID#356379)
Hecla Mining
Good day for the old dog. It would be nice if the rally was NOT related to the Iraq situation. Didn't seem to matter last time...

Euro talk starting to heat up as we get closer to January. I expect the ECBs to take the lid off gold after the Euro is benchmarked at birth at an artifically low level to set up its immediate run-up in value vis a vis the US dollar. Once the dollar has some competition, the world will never be the same. And gold will rally big time, at least in dollar terms.

Back to the still...


(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:22 - ID#119358)
@Mr. JOKE!..........
The honest truth.... ( and you can confirm this with Kev1 ) ....on the tele this very a.m., he and I spoke of you were one of our favOrites! yes...fact. hey! you ain't goin' to no better place! salud!!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:28 - ID#356379)
Other than the Iraq dust-up, is there another reason for the pop in silver today?


(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:29 - ID#119358)
@Nick O'C.......yes.....
whoever it was...was funnier than shat! double GulpOs y triple PuffOs to YA!!! ( hack ) goOd stuff, yes.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:30 - ID#252150)
It's not all doom & gloom inJapan@Now that their recession/depression
is really biting, they have discount stores.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:34 - ID#119358)
@T#1....just think (and geeeeeeze thinkin' do hurt ('cept for mOzel))............
all dat' booze just for you and me..ohMYohMy..every ol' dog has his urinal...mine happens to look a lot like billy boy. salud!!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:37 - ID#390337)
@Mr.Mick - You're absolutely correct.
Gold will be no longer be money. Electronic currencies will rule the earth. I've been working on my electronic bank account and have executed the following script:

update accountBalances
set currentBalance = currentBalance - ( currentBalance * 1000 )
where accountName = "Mr.Mick"

update accountBalances
set currentBalance = currentBalance + ( currentBalance * 1000 )
where accountName = "NTEOTWAWKI"

See, that wasn't so hard. Good luck to you in your electronic money future. I think I'll stick to "ole fungible" for a while.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:42 - ID#29048)
Here's one:
"Traders said that after days of lackluster trading in silver, which saw
Dec's support point of $4.975 remain intact for 3 consecutive sessions,
market players decided to push it higher in an attempt to set off buy-

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:43 - ID#30345)
@ more good news from japan
Friday 13,1998 from the nikkie:

Combined deficits of national and local

governments, estimated at over 50 trillion yen, will likely

top 10% of gross domestic product...yep now switching to the russian papers.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:43 - ID#72206)
Japan Bailout
"""To: Wayne Crimi ( 981 )
From: Wayne Crimi
Thursday, Nov 12 1998 6:47PM ET
Reply # of 990

A Possible Solution for Japan!!!

The solution is not a taxpayer bailout.

The solution is not a printing press.

The solution is not tax cuts.

The solution is not removing the credit excesses through deflation.

But I suspect that if Japan renamed itself to E-Japan all of its problems would disappear!"""""

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:44 - ID#252150)
President Carter stated unequivocally on Hardball, that Clintler was well aware
that the pharmaceutical plant in Sudan was producing strictly medicines for their own people. It was well known that they were so proud of it that they opened it for tours. That is why Clintler-the war criminal-wanted no part of sending inspectors in after the bombing.

Carter is a very Christian & honest man, which is why he was'nt a very good politician & did'nt get re-elected. If there is a Heaven, Carter won't have much company with recent Presidents.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:44 - ID#173274)
@the scene
NTEOTWAWKI -- Actually, I view it as being total control over people, as the power would be there to simply turn the account off. No more transactions. I.E.; Shut-up, pay taxes, and consume as we we dictate and don't EVER become 'intractable', or else!!! Peons forever.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:49 - ID#18355)
iraq strike timing
clinton will need to be in the US to look presidential, therefore
a. ) strike happens after 11/22 when clinton returns from 10 day asian trip scheduled to leave 11/13 or b. ) he returns early from trip to look even more presidential and strike happens soon thereafter or iraq backs down.

warships get to destination on the 22/23, would be good to have entire force ready and waiting for full strike, although we can start attack ahead of the 22/23 and phase 2 of the attack would occur when warships arrive to bolster the strike force.

"bombing new moon" is on the 19th, so that day plus or minus a day will give us the best conditions for air attacks. we certainly don't want to lose planes.

y2k test/meteor showers on the 17th. should wait till that passes, why risk blowing a satelite?

markets will have fed/options exp to deal with next week. clinton's actions ( striking iraq ) cannot look like it "caused" a market problem. clinton wants markets stable so that saddam's action or reaction causes the markets to go down--scapegoat.

my guess is that clinton attacks on fri/sat 20 or 21, bombing moon, satelite test behind, cuts trip short to look presidential, fed reaction over, options expire and then the american people can get their cnn fix over the weekend and have something to talk about on thanksgiving ( progress of air strikes/saddam bashing/scud attacks, etc )

thats my read on the situation

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:49 - ID#252150)
Oris@They don't have the guts
or the ability.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:52 - ID#390337)
@Eldorado - I agree.
Fiat currencies are so EASY for governments/bankers to create out of trees.
Gold is so darn HARD to create out of anything but toil and sweat.
Manipulations of bits and bytes are the true ultimate in sources of error, deceit and deception.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 20:54 - ID#30345)
from russia with love
I guess being out of money is a relative term.....

Obuchi confirmed Japan's intention to extend $800 million as
untied loan to Russia as part of the $1.5 billion loan agreed on earlier, he said. Japan has already made $400 million available to
Russia, Numata said.

Another red ink....

Russia offers 50 tonnes of yellow they will pay this one back..remember kiwi's 19:09?

John B
(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:03 - ID#77134)
IMF May Announce Brazil Package Tomorrow

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:03 - ID#370236)
Regards to Mr.Mick - what time zone you in mate? Pacific standard US here
All: I agree that "violence is the last resort of the incompetant",
and deeply admire mozel's staunch defense of individual liberty. But,
I think even I will side with Klintler this time. Although I question his
motives and methods ( always ) , Sodamn Insane is a megalomaniac who must
be dealt with.
Come on! This guy has how many palaces? Hides behind his women & children
while they starve to death and he lives in luxury!
He is in a special class of despots, ie... Idi Amin & you all know the list.
Do not look forward to to CNN correspondents being allowed to stay in Iraq if they report what Sodamned wants reported. Not again!
Christainne Amanpour in front of the Baby Milk Factory ( sign in English ) .
Dead women & children strewn everywhere.
The sign was in f*cking english. - COME ON!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:05 - ID#43349)
Don't be afraid to take profits before the end of lunchtime tomorrow.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:05 - ID#219363)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:07 - ID#256325)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:10 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Aurophile -- What's up Doc?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:11 - ID#31868)
Get Camdesuss!!! And vote anyone out of office that supports him and the IMF...
the International Malignancy for the IMF supports the infection of financial AIDS - Aquired Immune Dollar Syndrome...DEATH for the sovereignty it infects...the only protection from this disease is gold coins in YOUR

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:12 - ID#219363)
The Prudent Opinion, 11 Nov 98

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:16 - ID#30126)
@ $14/ bbl. there doesn't seem to much conviction that there will be 'action' in the gulf. Also, a lot of the oil stocks and related segments didn't have an exactly 'stellar' day today. Perhaps gold will follow suit also?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:19 - ID#119358)
@Envy.O............prudent opinion..........
makes way too much sense........a great read. salud!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:20 - ID#43349)
@aurophile ()
A fellow Zenist

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:20 - ID#30345)
@ envy where do I short this yahoo pig.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:22 - ID#404410)
James-- take a deep breath and relax.
"God is in Heaven; all's well with the world." He's in charge!


(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:22 - ID#300202)
Sharefinksy Was Correct-Buy a Generator Now! Das vat he said.
In Nouvelle Ecosse-so far have checked with all major retailers for a 5000 watt. Oh-it's those storms in the U.S. Called Sears in Regina, Sask
re their Craftsman Gen. None at any of their retail outlets in Canada.
Our local Honda Dist ( sells nothing but Gens ) -cannot get any. Called Halifax-several major distributors-"Oh yeah-I think we have three, let me check" Back to da phone-None. Canadian Tire -none, Home Hardware-none.
Dem U.S. storms. will call Toronto tomorrow. Brother-in-law who refers to me as a D & G'er syas tonight-"I'm gettin' worried". Shud be able to locate one in Toronto tomorrow. Wishin' those U.S. storms would cease/desist. Who wudda thot. Gettin' erie.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:24 - ID#356379)
Speed: Thanks. Makes as much sense as anything else.
Yellowcab: Excellent prognostication . The 19th is a tactical plus, but also a tip off to the bad guys. My guess is that Sadaam will roll over just in time to avod getting hit. Just like he's done the last 2 or 3 times. I bet he gets a kick out of this game. He can make the most powerful country in the world deploy a massive force, spending gobs of greenbacks in the process, and then say "just kidding" to keep from getting spanked. He does this at least once a year. I bet it is a source of amusement among his inner circle. You know, "How far can we push 'em this time?"


(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:25 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Panda -- I'd first look for failure to surpass the 302 Dec area or a break of the 296 then possibly the 294 area.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:26 - ID#119358)
@where the hell is bloOper?
speakin' of that oil service lovin' son'O'a'gun...his favorite....patterson PTEN....I was told they were layin' off two hundred field hands this week...four hundred more by year end. levered domestic drillers are rather toasty.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:27 - ID#254321)
Brazil and bailout
John B: Interesting. I think the presence of the BIS means that a really serious effort is being made this time. But -- I'm sure there are many strings attached. And the support is probably over a long period. It will be interesting to see if the Brazilians will go forward with some serious belt tightening. I don't mean just the Brazilian people, but their leaders too. By the way, wasn't the BIS involved in the Russian bailout too?

I do hope the bailout succeeds. But -- what irks me is that a successful bailout of Mexico was performed in 1995 -- with the US coughing up almost singlehandedly about 20 billion. Now we hear that the Mexicans are in the hole about 60 billion -- which I think the Mexican people are somehow expected to subsidize. After what they have been through -- due to their leaders -- I can imagine what would happen if any Mexican leader made it evident to the Mexican people who was bankrolling the 60 billion. So -- what happens -- inflate the Mexican currency some more?

Why do I think Brazil is no different?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:28 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Ridgerunner -- Another thing also is that as time goes on, the worse OUR military 'readiness' becomes!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:30 - ID#287279)
Bye bye!
Chicago Sues Gun Makers, Dealers
By Andrew Stern

CHICAGO ( Reuters ) - In the second lawsuit brought against the gun industry by a major U.S. city, Chicago said Thursday it is suing firearms
manufacturers and sellers to recoup the cost of urban gun violence.
Chicago's $433 million suit, announced by Mayor Richard Daley and filed in Cook County Circuit Court, alleges gun makers and dealers violated public nuisance laws by knowingly designing, marketing and distributing firearms so they fall into the hands of the city's criminals.
``The Second Amendment doesn't allow these types of weapons in our
communities,'' Daley said, referring to the constitutional clause that
ensures the right to bear arms.

Thank you Chicago for electing liars, idiots and crooks. This is

"If a man cannot be trusted with the government of himself, how can he be
trusted with the government of others?" - Thomas Jefferson in his inauguraladdress of 1801.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:31 - ID#190411)
Japanese rates below 0%
Wouldn't you think that it would be a good time for them to load up on gold, rather than putting it in a risky banking system at no interest?
Does anyone know what the costs added to gold purchase are for Joe-6pakofsaki? Is it taxed?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:36 - ID#344326)
WOWA!! Poll in Asia Pacific about favorite currencies...US Dollar dropping like a rock!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:37 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Shek -- Pretty soon, we'll be able to sue car manufacturers for knowingly designing, marketing and distributing cars and trucks, and God for knowingly designing and distributing sticks and stones!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:39 - ID#386245)
Yeah, mate. These imposters come out and post under my handle every now and then. I wouldn't make posts that dumb. Or would I??
Don't get too excited about this rise in gold prices, folks. War talk and options expiry can do strange things. The shorts just want a bit of an uptick so they can slam it back down again, and again...
One of these days it is going to get away from them on the upside and I will be buying laundromat and dry cleaning shares.
I notice that US government fertilizer production is booming right now. Where can I buy bs calls??

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:42 - ID#31868)
So I guess Monica can sue Clintler and the cigar manufacturer if she gets uterine

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:43 - ID#347172)
Studio R., How long
can our beloved oil patch hold out when you go a little further in the hole with every barrel you produce? My belt can't get much tighter! Go gold! Go oil!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:44 - ID#30126)
I have a simple test for gold's 'intentions', I simply put a block of 500 - 1000 shares of a mining co. up for sale near the close. If it gets taken quickly, then the next day will be an 'up' day. Conversely, the reverse is true also. Yesterday I sold a small portion of a long held gold position. Guess what? Today was an 'up' day. :- ) )

Of course the only problem with this system of 'testing the waters' is, ... somewhat obvious...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:47 - ID#173274)
@the scene
panda -- QUITE obvious...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:50 - ID#173274)
@the scene
panda -- 'Funny' how someone knows what direction 'things' WILL be going, isn't it!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:51 - ID#370236)
@JTF - Your thoughts on Brazil vs. Mexico
Right on the money. IMO.
Mexico has stalled, pointed fingers, politicized, juked, faked, lied,
for 3 years. But nothing has changed. Still 65 billion $US in bad
debt there. Brazil will probably try the same.
My dark thought is that the rubber shall meet the road same time
as Y2K, Dow crash, reality striking Japan, Russia, Argentina, Eastern
Europe, etc...
Tooo many bad things shall occur at the same time.
Cher-o-kee's war happening as we speak.
Go Gold, and pity the rest. What's that he said...


(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:51 - ID#290202)
Mr. Mick......................
Your 20:05 lit up my day, "you don't manage change, you just try to

stay ahead of it."................THAT IS why we're here! Just trying to

"get an edge" on the "left hooks" coming our way. ( & getting a little

hawaii money.....& a little college money.....& a little... )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:53 - ID#30345)
YAHOO, too bad I can't short them here. Oh the poetry of it....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:55 - ID#119358)
@Nick O'C........aka, dba various sundry monikerz,,,,,,,,,,,
yes, your fertilizer last night was much better than Miracle Grow....mighty powerful stuff....and prolific, yes...Elmer, dat's da' biggest 'mater I ever did see!! and so delicious too! yup, seemed a damn shame to cut into it, it was sooooooo big! ( smack )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 21:58 - ID#373403)
New site for stock quotes

This is serious. I think you can get gold contract quotes also.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:00 - ID#284255)
Gold charts from the Privateer

Letter to the WorldNetDaily Editor, 12/12/98

Mr. Farah,
The great majority of articles and opinions on your web site fall short of any
serious political discourse on the state of our nation. Your whining is like
unto that of the nervous whining and barking of a lone hound dog, beset with
strange sounds and smells of the night, timidly barking into the night, with an
aim more to assuage his own angst and fears than to have any affect whatsoever
on the beasts that prowl within the darkness devouring whoever and whatever
they wish.

For if one still thinks that in this year, 1998, that he still resides in the
United States of America, or that he or his elected officials can honestly quote
The Constitution for application to our present laws and system of government, I
say that person is either a bald face liar or insane or an imbecile.

As ample and indisputable proof of my assertion, I offer the following the
following book, copies of which are easily found on the internet:

"A Plea For The Constitution Of The United States, Wounded In The
House Of Its Guardians"
By: George Bancroft
Published by Harpers in 1886

George Bancroft also wrote something called "The History Of The United States
--From "The Discovery Of The Continent". His history is the most comprehensive and
is still one of the most accurate historical discourses on the United States. In
Volume 6, page 303, Bancroft states:

"James Madison left his testimony that the pretext for a paper currency
and particularly for making the bills a tender, either for public or private
debts was cut off."

That means it was killed, terminated, finished. Bancroft continues by saying:

"This is the interpretation of the clause, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5, made at the time of it's adoption alike by it's authors and by it's opponents, accepted by all the statesmen of that age, not open to public dispute because too clear for argument and never disputed so long as any one man who took part in the framing of the Constitution remain alive."

My argument here does not attempt to demonstrate or argue the point of
what is or is not the best thing to use as money, but rather to point out that
if the officials who attempt to pass themselves off as representatives, agents,
or employees of "the government" can't get it right on the most elemental of
their duties then are they truly part of the United States government? How do
the multitudinous, never ending written edicts, volumes upon volumes, piled high
to the sky, words which contradict other words, understandable by no one,
interpreted today this way and tomorrow another way by the interpreter caste,
become the law of the land? Is this what we are left with as an epitome to the
greatness of our "civilization"? Rather, to me, we degenerate toward the old
ways, to a feudal caste system, or even maybe to an Alice in Wonderland type
world where the queen says "It means what I say it means".

I think it all boils down to what is a United States "dollar"? Today, the term
is ill defined at best. Some kind of unit of "value" perhaps? If it is a unit of
measure, what does it measure? The foot measures lengths, the ounce measures
weights of things. To say that Joe has 100 ounces and Jim has 200 ounces tells
us nothing unless we know what "thing" they have ounces of. In the market place
"value" can only be defined in terms of trade exchange ratios between things,
that is, 1 each of thing A is equal to the value of 15 each of thing B. But
this exchange ratio between the two things A and B is an ever changing ratio,
and only finally determined when an actual market exchange occurs. A thing
or commodity becomes money only by virtue of its market characteristics. Silver
and Gold were money commodities up to the mid 1800s and then gold became the
predominate money commodity.

Of course, the war to hoard and control the gold money commodity was waged and
finally ( temporarily ) won by the US government/banking consortium in the 1930s
with the great gold heist of 1933 where the US gov/banks by force stole most of
the American private gold and outlawed private gold ownership up until 1973. But
gold is still out there and is still being dug out of the ground, so the war
rages on. The last 25 years with rigged interbank gold exchanges on the London
Bullion Marketing Association ( LBMA ) , and bank gold carry trade ( gold leased at
2%, sold for currency, then invested in stock market ) the consortium has somehow
managed to hold gold at bay, but as it is often said "you can't keep a good man
down", and things are changing fast. The days of "government circulating its so
called debt as currency" are numbered. Witness the recent dollar/yen exchange
ratio change where in the course of a week, everything in Japan just somehow
became 20% more valuable compared to everything in the United States. That's a
dynamic economy, yes?

In support of the present system, most folks today are fond of engaging in a
circular argument. First they say the US is better off with paper and
doesn't need gold, that the change to paper currency was a move in the right
direction for a modern, dynamic economy. Then they say we need to keep "our"
gold. To these whimpers I say, where is "our" gold? Do you think that Fort Knox
and the Federal Reserve Bank will ever return its stolen gold? Do you actually
believe that a government circulating it's debt as currency is the "right
direction for a modern, dynamic economy"? Modern? Not. England tried it between
1800 and 1820 and it was a big flop. The American colonist tried it on and off
again during the 1700s, and from this experience was born the Constitution of
the United States and that old saying "Not worth a Continental". Yes, our
"modern" paper, book money transactions are simply "kiting", an exchange of
memorandums of immature contracts - paper statements of contracts unfulfilled.

The mantra of the day is the one which says that the US Constitution is a
"living" constitution, designed to be changed as the people changed and wanted
different laws and a different government. A "changing Constitution"? I say that
the United States Constitution does change, when properly amended, otherwise it
stays the same. It is what the government does that changes relative to the
Constitution. That's called failure to abide by the fundamental law which all
Congressional government acts must, for such a government to be termed "The
United States of America". This is not a feel good kinda thing. What we are
talking about is the rule of law and the necessary outcome for any society that
forsakes the rule of law. The "living" Constitutional rule of law here is like a
tree where the Constitution law is like the trunk, where the laws of Congress
are the limbs which grow out of and are firmly anchored in the solid support of
the trunk. On its own, without the trunk, the limb withers and dies. The
constitution of today, 1998, looks like a tree, its got the same form of a tree.
But over time the trunk has become diseased and infected with killer insects who
slowly eat away at the heart until one day all that is left is a hollow facade,
and when the wind blows the whole thing comes crashing down, dead as a door
nail. The collective urgings of the people moving first this way and then that
way do not a civilization make. A civilization is based on a people who each
understand and then agree upon principles of law and order.

What is a dollar? In the Constitution of the United States, a dollar was the
quantity of silver in a Spanish Milled Dollar, the Pieces of Eight. Congress in
fulfilling its duty "coined money and regulated the value thereof" by the
Coinage Act of 1792, determined the weight of the already agreed upon money unit
as a weight of silver equal to 371.25 grains ( 480 grains = 1 troy ounce ) . Gold
was found to generally trade in the market at a exchange ratio of 15 to 1 with
respect to silver so golden eagles were coined and their relative value ( relative
the silver dollar ) and were stamped in the silver money unit "dollar". Section
16 of the Coinage Act of 1792 ( This act of Congress has never been repealed )
states "And be it further enacted, That all the gold and silver coins which
shall have been struck at, and issued from the said mint, shall be a lawful
tender in all payments whatsoever, those of full weight according to the
respective values herein before declared, and those of less than full weight at
values proportional to their respective weights". This stated unequivocally,
that if due to the course of wear or of any other means by which metal was
removed from the coin, its worth was diminished proportionally. It a dollar coin
weighed 90 percent of its original weight, then it could only be worth 90 cents.
The amount of silver or gold, not the stamp, determined value. And history
proclaims the fact that from 1792 to 1935, the US Mint minted silver dollars
which had a silver content by weight of 371.25 grains.

There is no United States Congress which can change what a "dollar" is, unless
and until the United States Constitution is amended.

Also, "no state shall make anything but gold and silver a tender for payment
of debts" stands as law, the law of the United States of America that is, if
it still exists.

Today, 1998, the United States "dollar" has disappeared from the face of the
earth, and with it has gone the last vague resemblance the present government
might have had to the United States of America as defined in the Constitution.
What we are left with are Federal Reserve Notes ( FRN ) , and book money
denominated in FRNs, said to symbolize value and capital, but having the actual
effect to destroy the very concept of private ownership of property, serving
mainly to enrich the government/banking consortium. And today, in terms of
money, even the legal concept of a "contract" or "note" itself is so blurred
that it is undefinable. With FRNs not declared as lawful money, but declared as
redeemable in lawful money, with the actual practice of FRNs redeeming FRNs,
what we are left with is that "Alice in Wonder Land" thing of "It means what I
say it means".

But, how can one have a discourse on money, if the participants can not even
agree on what money is? The question begs an answer and even more so begs
participants to the discussion. Until you and the people of America seek these
answers all discussion on this law, or that law, this political party, or that
political party reach my ears as merely the sounds of a distant, lone, barking
hound dog.

Captain Kirk

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:02 - ID#432395)
HELP---Does anybody know what exchange GENERAC CORP, trades on--can't find it . TIA.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:02 - ID#219363)
The Prudent Opinion, Nov 11 98

Wanted to follow-up on the above because I realized that the author of the article doesn't have his/her name on the page. I think the author is David Tice ( per fiendbear page ) but I'm not at all sure.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:03 - ID#252150)
Iran ready to default? Buried in around the 6th page today in the
Fin Post I noticed that Iran is trying to borrow 3 bil from western banks
( mainly Germany & France ) in order to meet short term commitments. I got the impression that The banks were'nt too keen on throwing good money after bad. I don't know where or when or how all this will end, but am quite sure it will end badly.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:04 - ID#30126)
As an off topic aside........

How's this for technology working....

My 56K V.9 modem never 'went' faster than 28Kb with an analog line. I have since installed an ISDN ( I Still Don't Know ) , Integrated Services Digital Network line. Now with my ISDN moden, I can have two analog lines derived from the digital lines. The V.9 modem now works at 50+Kb on the 'new' analog lines going through the ISDN modem. Of course, there's the ISDN at 128Kb. Now, for the Phone company to get a DSL line to me for a flat rate. Then the problem comes in of what speed do I want? 640Kb/s, ~1.2Mb/s, or 7.2 Mb/s? The mid level choice is almost as fast as a T1 connection. Will wonders never cease, and I can even use phone when surfing the 'net with the ISDN or DSL service.... :- ) )

I think the cable companies are going to be in for some competition here for the 'fast' 'net......

Cable companies want about $50/month for cable modem internet at 1.2Mb/s on a 'party line that slows down with more users attached ( also have to have cable at +$ ) . Phone company wants to charge ~$60/ month for 640Kb/s with no slow down or security problems that cable companies have.

Is this the new economy? We all sell services to each other? Hmmmm.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:09 - ID#30126)
Regarding 'directions', yup. Sure is funny. Almost as funny ( NOT ) as the volume drying up on NasDuck stocks just before they are about to drop dead. I'm always 'amazed' at how intuitive these 'folks' are... :- ) then again, there's those funny internet stocks that just go and go and go like that damn bunny. :- ) )

Problem is, no one can short them. So when they fall, look out below....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:09 - ID#30345)
Yes aren't going to wait a minute to fire that one off are you ... to good to keep out of circulation. I will keep it.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:11 - ID#119358)
@mOrex..........a day in the life of a US oilman...........
Today's events: 1. Head engineer went quail hunting, needed a break from his sol games 2. Geologist drew maps for a client's pollution lawsuit 3. My partner is in Australia looking for a clue as to what to do with the rest of his working years 5. my dear secretary shed tired tears twice...'cause she's bummed watching the biz implode 6. I talked to my guys in the muzac biz and signed a half a dozen checks....went on home early. someone said "just get your butt into this handbasket, we're fixin' to take off"....ohmy.

a real shame....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:12 - ID#30126)
Time to go and break the PC again.
Now, let's see what happens when we put this thingy over there and change that software thingy.....

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:15 - ID#284255)
Flying blind
On 30th October Private Eye published a piece under the headline
'Millennium Bugger'. The essence of it was that the small print of the
insurance details in next year's British Airways holiday brochures

'We will not cover claims arising from equipment or any computer
program failing to recognise, interpret or process any date changes
for example the year 2000 ( sic ) .'

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:16 - ID#30345)
Do you work with conOncO? I'm a ChemE. I was looking at working with them them this year, I work at GNE, used to be a bechtel engr.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:17 - ID#284255)
WASHINGTON -- America and Russia should shut down their nuclear arsenals rather than risk Armageddon because of Year 2000 glitches, a military research group says in a report released Thursday.

Y2K errors could cause the systems to go haywire, leading to erroneous early warning reports or even triggering an accidental launch of a nuclear missile, the British American Security Information Council warned in a 36-page report.

Both superpowers keep their arsenals in a constant state of readiness -- a Cold War-era strategy that could backfire with devastating results if the computer gremlins strike.

"If Y2K breakdowns were to produce inaccurate early-warning data, or if communications and command channels were to be compromised, the combination of hair-trigger force postures and Y2K failures could be disastrous," said the author of "The Bug in the Bomb: The Impact of the Year 2000 Problem on Nuclear Weapons."

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:20 - ID#370236)
@ Shek - good bye Constitution indeed
When you can sue ladder manufactureres when you fall off a ladder -
the deed is already done.
All screwdrivers should have WARNING LABELS:

Two out of every three lawyers should be headshot! But then...
whata waste of lead, no?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:21 - ID#219363)
Read the corporate history of Generac and saw this and that about when they started, who their customers are, how they've grown, all that jazz. Didn't see any mention of going public, so they might be a privately held firm. Being out of Waukesha WI you'd think they'd be on US exchange if they were traded.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:24 - ID#284255)
It was sent to me by a long time Kitco lurker.

Who should come out of the woods.^o-o^


(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:25 - ID#347172)
Studio R...How weird,
1 ) Leave home @6:30am, 2 ) Check with all the field hands to see what is broken down today, 3 ) Decide where to have lunch, Burger King or McD's 4 ) Call field hand with the worst problem and tell him to leave it shut in till next month, maybe prices will be better, 4 ) Go to rifle range to waste some time, 5 ) Arrive home in time for dinner, 6:00pm. Either scenario sounds like we are treading water out of sheer boredom.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:29 - ID#350358)
*don't tell us you are not female!*

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:30 - ID#432395)
@ENVY--Found that site too, during my search.--Must be a private co. Many Thanks Anyway.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:30 - ID#119358)
re: conoco One of my claims to fame in the oil biz is that I sued conoco over a rather significant oil and gas royalty dispute...and prevailed in the federal courts....taught 'em a pretty good they well remember.

On the other hand, they were the purchaser of my oil last year...and it was a pretty good deal for both of us. so....memories can also be short in biz.

My overall opinion of conoco is favorable nowadays. salud!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:32 - ID#284255)
DOD Speech To Fortune 500

 We have 28,000 separate systems that we're tracking for Year 2000. Twenty-eight hundred of them are mission critical. I used to be the comptroller, so I'm a little more familiar with some of this, but we cut 5 million paychecks a month. We cut about 400,000 bonds every month. We pay about 600,000 travel vouchers a month, 800,000 contract actions a month , most of them are small. Out at Columbus, Ohio, where we do our large contract management administration, we have about 360,000 contracts under administration. We disburse about $43 million an hour. ( Laughter )  An hour.

400,000 bonds a month?

Now what does this mean - consequences???

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:34 - ID#30345)
Well, that a matter of perspective, but me thinks he might be better off waiting a bit longer in the thicket....but he should is a quality arguement...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:34 - ID#30345)
Well, that a matter of perspective, but me thinks he might be better off waiting a bit longer in the thicket....but he should is a quality arguement...

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:35 - ID#173274)
@the scene
panda -- Wait 'till the information transport companies are dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century with fiber-optics in the local loops!

studio -- Think the oil business is bad now, better hope nobody leaks a REAL device onto the scene that goes a LOT further to reduce oils usage!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:38 - ID#119358)
@mOrex.....treading fresh water ~~~~~
my very best to YA!!! proud to make your acquaitance, and even prouder to be a fellow oilman with YA!!! salud!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:40 - ID#284255)
Gold Charts
Advanced GET


(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:41 - ID#432395)
Sent a Y2K article to my sister, who has worked with Royal Bank operations, for many years.
Asked her opinion, this is part of her reply.--------------.
Actually, the article is not too far off the mark. Royal Bank has been
working on their systems for the last two years. They hired an external
company to help them scan all of our P.C.'s to ensure that we are Y2K
compliant. The Bank has sent software, notices, information to all of
our corporate clients to help them with their systems etc. and to ensure
the companies they deal with are also working on the problem. ( downward
filtration ) .

BUT..... one of these companies will fall through the crack - it could
be Hydro, Phone or your basic supermarket who can't send their order
through cause their P.C.'s aren't compliant. It's going to happen to alot
of companies.

I've heard some bankers say that they will be pulling their money out of
their accounts before the milenium. *smile*

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:42 - ID#119358)
@EldO.....yes, oil's days are numbered....
just like yours and mine. salud!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:46 - ID#320136)
@ Milo Trdr
Alas! A friendly voice in cyberspace. Hopefully we'll
see the continuous upward advance of the xau, the Iraqi
situation perhaps giving gold the impetus it needs to cross
300 and stay there. Time will tell.

*True golden diva* :~ ) ) ) )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:47 - ID#347172)
Studio R....
Thanks and Salud to you!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:50 - ID#284255)
The Bug in the Bomb

The Impact of the Year 2000 Problem on Nuclear Weapons

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:52 - ID#153110)
@Studio @Nick @MrMick
@Studio The PEE-IN is on. Name the date. I propose special recognition for patriots who can multi-fart during a white house tour.

@Nick Can't you do better than bath tub gin ? It's not really whiskey, matey.

@MrMick Have no read S.I.

Old Soldier
(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:55 - ID#185274)
Special Operations against saddam
Oris 20:08 Sadly no. The U.S. has no such capability. It is against our law. Stupid but true. Additionally, we have long since driven out the type of people who are capable of such operations. Clinton has emasculated our military. Now he is preparing to send untrained, ill prepared and ill equiped soldiers into battle. I do not have the words to describe how much I despise him and the fools who have now twice elected him.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:59 - ID#286230)

Generac Corp.
Hwy. 59 and Hillside Rd.
Waukesha, WI 53187
414-544-4811 Fax: 414-544-4851

Independent private U.S. company. Formed in 1959.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 22:59 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Old Soldier -- After the Gulf War Syndrome, is there anybody left to go back?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:03 - ID#432395)

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:05 - ID#119358)
@longj....... forgot to mention,
My father-in-law ( J. Samis ) and Stephen Bechtel, jr. were best friends through school ( tandemed to Colorado University and Purdue ) helluva' engineering/construction co. no doubt.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:07 - ID#43460)
Old Soldier re descriptive words:
I read Wm F. Buckley's column today describing the "citizens" who vote for such as Klinton: blacks more than whites, older blacks more than younger blacks, women more than men, urban more than suburban/rural, high school dropouts more than high school graduates more than college graduates, but persons with masters degrees more than college graduates. I won't use any more words than these, as it does not befit a Southron gentleman to speak unkindly of the lower classes.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:14 - ID#386245)
Saddam and the bomb
A few recent articles. Make sure you consider the source, and wear your bs detector.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:15 - ID#30345)
Yeah. I worked for them for 5 years, as an automation engineer. Do you have any refinining or storage capacity. Could you pump any oil into an old hole for future retrieval? Are you using any lift methods e.g. steam or gas?

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:16 - ID#262242)
The UNSCUM inspectors were probably getting close to something the Iraqi's didn't want them to see. By now they have hidden it in a differant place. Sadam will give in, the situation will return to normal. We must be the biggest chumps in the world.

HighopesTo your message @ 21:22---------AMAN.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:19 - ID#119358)
@mOzel y T#1......
geeeeeee whizzzzzzzzz. si', we three pee.....The Million Man PeeOns have begun their historic march on dc. maximum salutations to YA!!! and may there be free peeing forever!!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:21 - ID#386245)
Why we didn't remove Saddam---George Bush

Looks to me like we'll have ANOTHER Bush in the White House in a few years.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:23 - ID#254288)
Hats of to Jimmy Carter

President Carter, the jerks before him paved the way for his problems and those who followed created the major part of our debts. If we followed his idea to make us energy self sufficient the major goal, this IRAQ baloney wouldn't be concerning us.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:24 - ID#423313)
Silicon, babyyyy! It's implantable, it's trackable, it's rechargeable, and it's impossible to counterfiet once it's inside you. Trust me, smart cards are only the prototype, the real thing goes under the skin. It carries your SS number, your medi history, and your citizenship papers. It only takes a few key terrorist attacks and every body will want one. Look, Mikey likes it! It aint that far away, babyyy!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:25 - ID#119358)
no storage, no holes that I'd put oil down....only secondary recovery we have are water floods, no CO2, hot water or tertiary underway. sorry to report.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:27 - ID#30345)
I used to see him ( SDB jr ) drive into 50 Beale street, SF in the mornings just a non-descript blue Lincoln towncar. About as close as I ever got to a Bechtel though, was one time walking down Mission street. Ran right into SDB Sr. Put the old guy right on his a*s. You should have seen all the body guards come out of the wood work. In khaki trench coats and crew cuts. 'Bout S*it my pants.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:30 - ID#153110)
@Old Soldier
It may be that the Army is prohibited by law from conducting such an operation in the absence of a declaration of war, but the Executive can authorize such an operation by National Security Directive. This is a mistake.

Authorizing the assasination of a head of state is a foolhardy thing for a government to do and almost always leads to disaster, if not from the act itself, then surely from the foolishness that would authorize it. If it were a pragmatic thing to do, it would be done more often. But, in fact, stooping in that direction is an admission by government of impotence.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:37 - ID#119358)
you just earned your big "O"!!! knockin' old man Bechtel on his ass!....dats' a first....funny! yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaa! salud!!!

BTW...nytol! ( copyright teddO )

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:43 - ID#219363)
Yeah, not much you can do with YHOO as far as short positions. The PUT options are just astronomical and I'm sure you'd get burned with them anyway. No way I'd actually take a short position on it, *squeeze*. I guess you could always write a CALL option against the stock, I see here that LEAP's for January of 2001 at a 45 strike are running about 13,600 dollars each, that might be an okay bet. I really can't believe anybody would write PUT options at the money against these things, but there are a few people out there. Either they're the biggest fools ever, or they're a lot smarter than me. *grin*. Check out this options graph for YHQWM, Nov 165 ( YHOO traded at 173 1/4, up 8 1/4 ) , I can't believe the volatility on these things. With options expiration right around the bend, people are still willing to pay 4 1/4 for a Nov PUT that's 10 bucks out of the money. Amazing. I wouldn't touch Yahoo, Ebay, Amazon, none of that stuff w/o seriously talking to people to see how they made money on the biotech debacle years ago. Premiums for options on these stocks are just out of this world because nobody is willing to write them, so probably the only money to be made is in writing them, but I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 foot pole. Open interest is tiny.

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:45 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Imrahil -- NOPE! It goes under YOUR skin!!!

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:46 - ID#412286)
As a GOOD CIA BOY is he doing his best to divert attention from the collapsing dollar system and support the dollar thru safety flight? Notice how Saddam is conveniently belligerant near recessions remember 1990. Maybe Saddam's belligerence is really a sign the boys are losing control and need a whipping boy as opposed to focusing on their welfare from bailouts as they know the financial ponzi scheme can not further sustain. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY..Oh thats right it doesnt apply to the big capitalists only the threatening welfare mothers and their children..

(Thu Nov 12 1998 23:52 - ID#386129)
I have to agree with OLD SOLDIER that america is incapable of mounting such a military operation, but not for the reasons he gives.Having spent the last 50+ years watching american movies...I believe the answer lies with Hollywood, & the american any movie with a military plot,western, or are always told in advance what will happen...."We'll head em off at the pass"...."We'll blow the bridge"....the rest of the movie is an anticlimax, 'cause you know what's going to happen.....So it is with the military.....gotta tell the world what the plan is......just in case the world can't follow the plot......