Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:15 - ID#24135)
Oh what a beautiful morning ..
Tolerant1 .. You're a stand up guy ..

Petronius .. Your point No 3 is spot on .. WJC
and his demo rats could not wait to sell out
Savimbi .. Dos Santos has always been a RED
horror story .. I hope Zaire brings him down..
Mugabe is likely to go first..

Charles Keeling .. Mandela is nowhere near a RED.
See above .. he has avoided Mugabe and Dos Santos
like the plague.. His "friendship" with Castro
is mainly to ensure no more Cuban Expeditionary
Forces sent to Africa to help Dos Santos..
He is a inept, arroant, useless old f@rt but a
long way from a RED. The local Blacks contain
a slimmer RED or alruistic element than you will
find in the USA .. Less RORs per capita for
example .. Most of the real REDS here are from
the UK .. a few are Afrikaaners.. but not many..
and they lock their doors at night.
Most "ANC are Statist Reds" brainwashed people
still dont believe Anglos relocated to London.
Many more large RSA companies will follow suit.
Local Unions screamed bloody murder but were
told to shut up. ANC also freed up exchanged
controls .. They are considerably less socialist
and less into social engineering then were the
Nats ..
You should spend some time here and always
question your own mindset .. NA mindsets are
predictable and usually misguided ( in my view ) .
Yours seems no exception. But believe as you
please .. I dont really care ..

CCC .. Bless you ..

Donald .. Gold backed Bonds ... Yessssssss

Salty ... that's one for tin pan alley .. "dusty
rhodes" ... oboy Boks had a squeaker with Wales.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:16 - ID#34883)
Why do Intellectuals Oppose Capitalism?

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:24 - ID#24135)
PornoGold ..
to Polarbear ..
I knew this would happen sooner or
later ...
I heard that Kathy du Plessis had ousted
old man Kebble in a feminist palace coup ..She
will soon start minting her own gold coins ..
the "Randy Rand" .. they are REAL collector's items.
Sent in plain brown wrapper.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:24 - ID#210282)
Information Revolution -- not just Internet
Miro: You said it better than I. We are in just the beginning of the information revolution. The last one of this magnitude was the industrial revolution. And -- you are right that we will not necessarily recognize the final form -- computers thousands of times faster using molecular memories -- optical storage devices with storage densities beyond our current comprehension. New devices such as what appears to be a transporter prototype at CalTech this year -- not possible without computers much faster than we have now. Nanotechnology -- micro devices to aid the repair of the human body beginning with clearing blood vesseal blockages.

Fuzzy logic or image comparing computers to more closely mimick human though processes -- possibly even self-aware computers.

There will always be individuals who benefit the most, and those that do not -- but as you say, more will benefit than we can realize now, just as no one thought the industrial revolution would make life better for as many as it did -- given that its beginnings appeared to cause the virtual enslavement of a 'working class'. But -- that didn't last. The information will affect far more individuals than we realize.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:28 - ID#43460)
Gusto Oro , re deflation

On a tangent:
It bothers me that persons such as the Pakastani and Indian silversmiths who spend decades learning incredibly difficult filligree techniques do not have sufficient price support for their craft. But what bothers me more is that the 'Merkan, 'Stralian and Canadian craftsmen give up and take a factory job or go on the dole because there is no reasonable way for them to live off their work during that important first ten years of learning. Despite all popular prejudice to the contrary, free trade is only a positive when it is limited to peers in the ( three? ) tiers of industrialisation. IMHO

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:31 - ID#43460)
Good morning Mr. Disney
And now off to bed for me and those on the wrong side of the globe! ( 8-^] )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:35 - ID#243100)
Bye, bye Miss American Pie
Except it is gold. And perhaps Kitco. And anyone else who ever thought gold would stand up.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:41 - ID#243100)
Oh yes. Silver.
It's a good play for paper weights. Or--- sh*t, there is nothing else.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:48 - ID#243100)
Bottom line?
All the fundamentals, all the TA, all the expertise, all the knowledge, and all the whatever else you want to throw in with it means nothing.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:54 - ID#219363)
All it is, in essense, is a cloud into which we can speak, write, and manipulate information. I don't mean to understate the profound effects it's going to have, but at the same time, we're still going to have to put our coats on when it's cold outside, and I'm still going to have to feed the cat and water the plants. I've little doubt that in the end the Internet will be a super-high speed network of fiber and satellite whirling information and processing power around the globe and through-out space delivering full speed video from point to point, rendering virtual reality landscapes of immersive sensation, allowing big brother to find an individual with AI driven video cameras, and all kinds of cyber junk planted into the brain itself. But it's still information, not eggs for breakfast, tires for my car, or a lollipop at the doctor's office. I'm sure it's going to change ( and has changed ) the human race in ways we can't now comprehend, much like the television did, but like the television, we'll get used to it, and it'll just be another thing, another "gadget with features". To tell you the truth, I'm not at all positive I like where some of the technology is going, nor do I like some of it's implied uses, things that naturally fall from a hyper-connected world population. I rather like sitting down to discussion business over a cup of hot coffee on a cold day, and I get sick of carrying around a cellular phone sometimes. We're still in the early phases of connecting up the world's people and gadgets, that phase where there is still money to be made developing dash mounted mapping systems, video cameras that can count birds flying above the city scape, and home toasters that you can manipulate from your desk at the office. As the technology gets incorporated and everything gets all wired up, will we really be any better off than we were ? Do I really need to glance into my super watch gadget television screen to see if the cat is tearing up toilet paper in the bathroom ? Do I really want my girlfriend to send messages to my super graphical beeper thing that say "Bring home milk" ? Sometimes I wonder.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 00:57 - ID#243100)
What? No, not CNBC
Thank G*d. No NOT THAT--- not PC. What then?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:14 - ID#153110)
@oris The Fierce
Your address to me in the slang diminuitive was duly noted. Perhaps there is some past unintended slight for which you seek revenge. Go in peace.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:15 - ID#243100)
Is this the best page on the internet?
You bet it is!!! And it's only because it has a forum of pure opinion that is free of poplitical innerference.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:33 - ID#243100)
Of course, that is what the bottom line is. You who talk the talk, can you find yours?

Sit down with your parents and leard something about manners and history.

Go gold? Go silver? I might as well be at an old ladies ( if that is not pc incorrect to say ) card game. In my opinion, the card game wins.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:39 - ID#24135)
language problems ..
For Gen'ral Mozel ..
the infantile diminutive, "baby", should be taken as
term of endearment .. particularly from a 230 pound
.. so is "Mozelito" from another direction ..
.. but Brother Oris-ito has a good point .. you cant really
practice driving a heavy tank .. up and down the N1..
I think people would notice.
... the day for large weapons will come .. but it's
not time yet.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:43 - ID#153110)
Some time back we had a discussion on the legal significance of birth registration. The following research has come into my ken and it adds information of goings on in departments of commerce which was unknown to me before. It proves the point that birth registration per se has no legal significance while exposing that birth registration information has been used to create legal significance for the all caps name by which the Corporate Federalist state addresses you in legal process.

"Where does the fictional corporate name originate?" ( Your artificial person name. )
This is one of the underlying frauds of Corporate Federalism: Since
about 1934, State departments of commerce have effected second birth
certificates after parents file original birth certificates with the
State bureau of vital statistics. I've seen a copy of one of the second
certificates from Kansas, and other people have confirmed that their
respective State departments of commerce have them on file as well. This
second "birth certificate" is made out in the corporate name: Joe Sucker
registered as a live birth with the State bureau of vital statistics
becomes JOE SUCKER in the State bureau or department of commerce. The
second certificate secures a lien and equitable interest in the
corporate fiction; the "security" is then sold in equities markets. The
"United States of America" is construed to be a "stock holder" in the
corporate entity, so has an equitable interest.
As time permits, we're tracking this scheme to its source, and have
gotten pretty close. The pivotal Federal side is found in Title 18 of
the United States Code, Sec. 1001. In historical and statutory notes
following Sec. 1001, this section tracks to Sec. 80 of the Code, 1940
ed. The current edition eliminates mention of the "United States of
America", but in historical and statutory notes, explains that "United
States of America" verbiage was eliminated in light of the definition of
"agency of the United States" at Sec. 6 of title 18. I've tracked the
section to the Revised Statutes of 1878 ( it was originally 1862 or 1863
legislation ) , and the Criminal Code of 1909, to find that this
relatively new creation, the "United States of America", didn't make its
formal appearance until some time after 1909. There was amending
legislation in 1918 and in the 1930's, but I haven't had time to go to
our Federal depository library at Okla. Statute University in Stillwater
to review subsequent legislation in the Statutes at Large.
On the State side, we've tracked this "United States of America" entity
on two lines: Virtually all Oklahoma elected and appointed officers take
( 1 ) the oath of office prescribed in the Oklahoma constitution, and ( 2 )
a statutory "loyalty" oath. The first binds them to uphold the
Constitution and laws of the United States and of Oklahoma, where the
second is to the "United States of America" constitution, etc. Second
tier and lower officers and employees no longer take the oath prescribed
in the Constitution of the State of Oklahoma, only the statutory loyalty
oath. Both oaths of elected and appointed officials are on file with the
Secretary of State, county clerk, municipal clerk, etc. Certified copies
may be secured for the appropriate fee.
The second line we've located is in State cession laws: Original
cession laws, which in Oklahoma were secured in the Revised Statutes of
1910 ( 3 years after Oklahoma became a State of the Union ) , provide for
cession of land to the United States as prescribed in Article I, Sec. 8,
clause 17 of the Constitution of the United States; later cession laws
concern land ceded to this new "United States of America".
By knowing that the "United States of America" entity defined as an
agency of the United States did not make an appearance prior to 1909,
and that the second birth certificate fraud commenced in approximately
1934, we have the "window of opportunity" for formalization of this
defacto scheme narrowed down enough that it is manageable.
In 1935, representatives of State, Federal, county and municipal
governments met in Denver to sign a proclamation or declaration of
intergovernmental dependence. Since 1935, the Organization of States has
printed a book titled "Book of the States" every other year. This book
seems to be the forum in which Cooperative Federalism objectives are
framed, and progress of the scheme is tracked. It seems that the
Organization of States has headquarters in Lexington, Kentucky. There
are comparable and sister organizations for State governors,
legislators, attorneys general, etc., county and municipal government
people, as well as counties and municipalities themselves, etc. These
organizations are responsible for the various uniform laws, ordinances,
and the like promulgated in the several States.
The entire social welfare program is tied in -- the Social Security
Act of 1935, and subsequent legislation, secures perceived and potential
benefits in lieu of unalienable rights. All that remain are "civil
rights" and benefits listed on the back of the second certificate
executed by the various departments of commerce in the several States.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:43 - ID#243100)
When I started lurking here 14 months ago,
this site really got me excited because of it's knowledge and honesty.

But you people have lost that. Get back to what made this site worth visiting.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:52 - ID#220325)
Silver Standard (SSO) vse and (SSRIF) Nasdaq

Silver Standard Raises $2.3 Million in a Private Placement

Vancouver, British Columbia-- Not for distribution in the United States.

Silver Standard is pleased to report a $2.3 million private placement of 1,162,500 units at a price of $2.00 per unit. Each unit consists of one common share and one common share purchase warrant. Each warrant is exercisable on payment of $2.75 into one common share of Silver Standard for a period of one year. subject to VSE approval.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 01:53 - ID#243100)
Thanks to Kitco.
I really needed to vent what I feel. Bart, where can I send the thank you card.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 02:09 - ID#153110)
Gen'ral, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" does not say small arms. The tree rodent has a better understanding of the Liberty Tree than those untutored in the fundamentals of government for freemen.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 02:42 - ID#252150)
Miro@Automobiles- when they became fairly reliable, had a practical use.
The WWW is great for the small % of people who can afford to use it. But mainly for enterainment. How many people can honestly say that their invesments are doing better because of all the superfluous info available. There is a limit to the amount of info an individual can process & retain. I, personally, was more successfull with my investments when I had access to much less info & kept charts by hand.

It does'nt matter how fast the net becomes or how much info is available, 85% of the population in the U.S. will still prefer the WWF. 99.9% of the world's population won't be able to afford the cost of being connected to the web for the forseeable future & will be much more concerned about where their next meal will come from.

Away to my Luddite meeting.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 03:02 - ID#252391)
To Weiser & to bomb or not to bomb
Weiser I think that 18 years of bear market and the smashed hopes of repeatedly failed rallies this year in gold have given this board the different tone you detect. Actually, its a pretty good indicator of when gold is near a low - then things really get naste, food fights break out and the comments get bitter, nonconstructive and crazy. Right here we're as the market for gold - stuck in the middle. Few are excited bulls, the food fighters are abscent. Suspect we'll pull back, pick up some of the $250 perdictors and the killer wave Elliots, along with a slung tomoto or two before moving back to the higher end of the trading zone contained by the $300 Cabal Barrier. And so it will go....

Iraq and the US really caught in a pickle. Iraq keeps dishing out false compitulation to the inspection demands - the UN has to study, Clinton doesn't want to appear rash if inspections can resume - what a wishful bit of thinking that is. With defense satillites possibly being knocked out, Iraq may be playing for time - quite successfully, I'd say. Even if inspections get the green light how long before they would effectively begin - more time .....

The UN Security Council will meet on Sunday. IRAQ says inspections can begin immediately. The US ought to bomb and remove what will eventually be found if inspections ever get to be conducted. Iraq is just trying to devide the coalition winning time for their weapons redevelopement.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 03:32 - ID#24135)
Anythang you say ..
Genral Mozel ..
Ill start by driving on the N1 at night ... just
to get a feel of it ...

Do I need plates ?? ..

.. and .. er .. where's the ignition?

By the bye ..
funny you all should mention tree rodents
because .. I caught one last night ..
in a bag of dog food can you believe ..
.. I had caught a little baby about 6 months
ago and fed it and kept it in a box but it
excaped you know .. Now Im farly certain
this here is the SAME tree rat .. He's been
living in the house behind the ice box and
I think he believes he is one of the dawgs ..
heh heh next he'll be chasing cats .. or
wanting to ride in the car ..
.... I let him loose on the side street and
he was last seen hunchbacking it toward the
house across the street ..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 03:45 - ID#153110)
If plates fulfill a need of yours, you need them. Just FMI, is there a right in law to keep and bear arms where you are ?

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 03:47 - ID#24135)
Mandrake the Accountant ..
for CC ..
why I nearly forgot .. ABX had all that cash flow
that you all are very fond of as we all know ...
I think it was about $1.25 a share on lots of shares
.. well now that flow surely did NOT go to the
shareholders .. and ABX did not increase their
reserves .. and they did NOT increase their capacity..
... Now you understand the old cash flow gismo a
WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN I DO .. So please explain to
me .. where in tarnation did that cash flow get to ???
I await with great interest ..
... I think we made have uncovered a item for the
financial astronomers .. a BLACK HOLE in the gold
mining industry. Any cash flow that goes into abx
can never escape.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 03:53 - ID#24135)
It is a right here to do so .. but
a licence is required .. the anti gun
drongos are here too though .. mainly
from the UK .. Many Blacks see the AK
as a traditional weapon .. They have
no interest in gun control .. But they
are very flexible and can kill you in
a variety of ways..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 03:57 - ID#25490)
Did that tree rat pee on your car tyre? Do they bury bones?

Down this way we got no bears, so we don't need arms. I say: arm all bears, or maybe, give all bears right arms...Right on...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 04:26 - ID#432148)
Placer Dome Political Risk Insurance
Does anyone know if most companies purchase political risk insurance if they have losses in developing countries? Click "1998" on this url for PDG's purchase info:

(Sun Nov 15 1998 06:02 - ID#31868)
weiser, John Disney, Namaste' gulps and puffs all around...mozel, Namaste' gulp
and a puff to ya...Lexington, KY you say huh...I will do research there in person in the next few weeks as that trip has been reinstated...will inform you of my findings...bbl

(Sun Nov 15 1998 06:10 - ID#284255)
Pointing the Y2K Finger
Respondents are taking precautions nonetheless. Roughly three-fourths of survey participants have checked their PCs for Y2K compliance. Almost eighty percent are taking steps to minimize the impact of the Millennium Bug : 62.4 percent plan to avoid traveling by plane, 61.5 percent will withdraw money from the bank, and 58.6 percent will purchase extra supplies in case of a shortage.

Last Chance For Y2K Candor
I asked the question "What do you want from your vendors?" and at least 50 voices said in unison "the truth."


John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 06:14 - ID#24135)
You know ..
salty ..
Id tried to catch that little devil
for weeks with a nasty guillotine
like trap .. baited with avocado ..
which he seemed to like a lot ..
glad I missed .. he wound up in paper
bag of dog food unable to climb out ..
He looked up at me with his big
brown rat eyes and he almost called
me "daddy" .. I just couldnt kill him
... by the way wild animals are taking
quite a toll of Black illegal immigrants
who try to come in via Kruger park ..
Gommint is planning to start dressing
lions up in a kind of immigration officer
uniform... sort of regularizes their efforts..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 06:39 - ID#284255)
Someone wants a bargain?
Just received this strange and compelling email
I want to ask you a few questions about your house..
First off, I want to know where it is, and if it is out in a rural area.
Second, I want to know how much you want for this house, and if you would sell it to me after Jan 1, 2000 for gold or silver pieces.
Third, Are you setting up a y2k community there?

Thank you very much, get back to me soon please;

Zereue Ramone Brown II

Solving the Year 2000 Problem in Microsoft Desktop Application Programs

(Sun Nov 15 1998 07:13 - ID#341189)
90 days are up-Russian debt scramble on go
MOSCOW ( AP ) -- A 90-day moratorium on Russia's foreign debt
repayments expired Sunday, but the government and the country's
troubled commercial banks may not be able to resume payments.

The Russian government decided Aug. 17 to impose the 90-day
moratorium on repayments of foreign commercial debt when it devalued
the ruble. A number of foreign creditors threatened to seize Russian
assets overseas as a result, but little action came as a result.

Some of the country's larger banks will be able to pay their debts, but
many will face law suits and see their foreign assets seized, the Interfax
news agency said.

Russian banks' debt on forward contracts to foreign banks totals about
$6 billion, but the banks will probably be able to pay off no more than $2
billion, Interfax said.

And as the banks scramble for dollars to pay off the debts, the ruble rate
is likely to fall hard, Interfax said, citing an unidentified source.

The Central Bank will ``help our banks keep the negotiations with
Western creditors going'' and try to head off any law suits, said Central
Bank Vice Chairman Andrei Kozlov, according to Interfax.

But Central Bank Chairman Viktor Gerashchenko said the body would
only support those banks that can insure debt settlements and retain ``the
skeleton of the banking system,'' according to the ITAR-Tass news

(Sun Nov 15 1998 08:53 - ID#284255)
Thai astronomer predicts 2097 doomsday
BANGKOK, Thailand, Nov. 13 ( UPI ) A Thai astronomer has calculated that the Tempel-Tuttle comet, which is the cause of an expected spectacular meteor shower next week, will collide with Earth on Nov. 15, 2097, causing planet-wide devastation.

The Nation newspaper ( Friday ) quotes Khao Muanwong ( "KAO MUAN-w wong" ) , who holds a doctorate in astronomy and is the former dean of Khon Kaen University's Faculty of Science, as saying the impact of the comet could be accompanied by huge floods and earthquakes and possibly the end of life on Earth.

The Tempel-Tuttle comet, discovered by Wilhelm Tempel and Horas Tuttle in 1865, orbits the sun every 32.9 years. It is slightly more than a mile in diameter.

Khao says, "According to my calculation, based on an astronomical database researched by D.K. Yeomans of NASA, when the comet returns in 2097, it will hit the Earth."

He says others are aware of the probable impact but havs avoided going public with the news.

He says, "I feel that NASA has already tried to do something to stop the comet but have not publicized it yet. The only way to avoid the damage is to destroy the comet."

The Leonid meteor shower, which accompanies Tempel-Tuttle when it comes close to Earth every 32.9 years, is expected to create a once-in- a-lifetime display over much of Asia on the night of Nov. 17-18.

Hotels and other accommodations in northern Thailand, where viewing conditions are expected to be optimal, have been booked out for months in anticipation of the meteor shower.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 08:56 - ID#119358)
sunday morn...time for a little sunday cheer...yaess.

Two Three Six Eight!
Who we gonna' masticate?
Clitton! Clitton! Clitton!
Yup! Yup! Hoooooooorahhhhhhhh!

yes, that's pretty gooood, now a leeeetle louder pleeeese....


SirrisimO mOzel.......contrary to your eloquious post regarding USA vs. USA ........we, the fine people of Stillwater, Oklahoma are pretty sure that both Constitutions were solely written to guide us through the quandry of who is supposed to fix the roads....and we're still pretty confused about it. yes. salud!!! ( gulp )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:03 - ID#43349)
The dodged bullet

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:07 - ID#290456)

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:07 - ID#45173)
The Drudge Report site last night had a link to the Mission Called Off story with a picture of a chicken.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:09 - ID#43349)
Good picture.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:09 - ID#43349)

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:13 - ID#43349)
Dollar rises, but....

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:14 - ID#119358)
@COmpGeek.......maybe, better never than late........but.....
thank you for including my persona in your post yesterday. I agree with others, yours was a great piece'O'writing. uhHuH.

yup, and I'm gonna' take your wonderful compliment straight to my head....'cause I'm certain it will get lost there! ;^ ) ~ thanks, my friend and........un GulpO y un PuffO to YA!!!! yaess.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:15 - ID#333126)
you know, regarding the "declaration of war" on Iraq that CNN is calling ...
doesn't Clinton actually have to get Congress to approve to declare WAR on another sovereign country?

or at least a UN resolution?

who ordered this called-off air attack? is this constitutional?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:16 - ID#347457)
@Envy & JTF
Envy, we think alike in disliking ways how new technologies change some aspects of out lives. I am known to be complaining a lot. You can call me a Renaissance man, preferring human contact to computer handshake. However, I doubt it's avoidable.

JTF, I hope you can take some time off today and get out on your boat. Anyway, in which part of country are you? I kind of remember you saying California, I love sailing in San Francisco and Pacific Ocean ( when I can get there ) . If I could, I'd be living on my boat sailing around the world, however, kids still going through schools and I have to wait.

OK, go Gold, help me reach my freedom ;- )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:19 - ID#333126)
the quintessential late stock buyer

roped in... now ... when he brings out the credit cards to pay for the margin on more stock in hopes of making up the loss ... that's when the fit hits the shan

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:21 - ID#347457)
@sharefin on Thai astronomer predicts 2097 doomsday
Sharefin, does this mean that we have to wait 100 years for gold going through the roof? ;- )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:26 - ID#119358)
@raven'O'fire.....(whew, that's a pretty powerful image)...hmmm....
but....that kid who bought the hot stocks........he's learnin' the only way you really can...gettin' those tough lessons, myOmy.

re Clitton's authority to do whatever..........he's got polls to back him up...sheeeeeeze..yea, and I got a pole ready for 'em alright!


(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:29 - ID#284255)
Miro - ANOTHER gold rally?
No way.
That 's just some prewarning so we can all get set on the next major gold rally.
At least it's not going to clout us this time around.

Here's and interesting picture of china. ( click on the picture to blow it up )
Can you see the gold?

From here, some great pictures.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:32 - ID#284255)
An interesting aside.
That site, I just posted with all the great graphics.
Radar images from space.
Well this satellite has a Y2k bug and is being decomissioned late next year.

They've asked all services who'd like images to put their orders in soon.
Y'know - avoid the rush.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:32 - ID#412286)
THE LAWYER: Approval rating at 71%.Given his handling of the Mid East can the Nobel Peace Prize be far behind? Rumor has it that Paula Jones may have positive comments soon about Clinton ie How he really is concerned for the poor.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:38 - ID#333126)
more exuberance

this guy expects DELL to post stock gains of 10% *per month*

granted, using the Web as a sales medium has some advantages, but still... 10% per month... hehehe... wouldn't be long before they're worth more than the US economy at that rate...few years at most...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:40 - ID#333126)
polls are polls but it sure ain't legally or constitutionally correct ( as far as I know anyway )

so what if 40-something % of the US population thinks Clinton should go ahead and unilaterally begin bombing Iraq?

popular polls setting legal/political precedents? sheesh...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:40 - ID#412286)
John Disney
Proud to say that one of my associates worked in So. Africa a few years ago in the anti-apartheid movement under the auspices of anti apartheid activist Joe Slovo ( or something like that ) . She stated that there is a good possibility of progressive developments once Mandela is gone. She agrees with you that he is no good. Hopefully, for S. Africa ( with which I am unfamiliar ) she will be right abnd democracy will be enhanced for the workers and the people. She's a smart gal and must have been brave to go over and work for an anti apartheid group given the oppresion by the Conservative White rightists.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:43 - ID#290456)

There's ANOTHER 40% of the population that thinks we should unilaterally be bombing Washington, not Iraq.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:46 - ID#119358)
@rOr, yup........Mo'belles Piece Prize........
ya' got'cher........Ol' Faithful.....and you got'cher....Ol' Ironsides....and yer'......Ol' Hickory........and now we got.......Ol' Dicknose. yup.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:46 - ID#339274)
Platinum elevator
We had the 330 basement,350 the main lobby waiting
for silver and gold to get in for a ride till the end of
January.Penny and smallcap stocks will fly in the face of disbelieve.
February/March the months of a hangover.SnP pumped up with liquidity
and the DOW looking for 10000.This is excitement.Of course this is
only my opinion on this frisky Sunday morning where time is the wisest
of all advisers.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:49 - ID#290172)
Sunday Currency Report

1. POG in all monitored currencies neatly bracketed by 3P- POG in euro and 3P -POG in USD. However, the POG euro is under enormous strain ( wants to be higher )

2. How the Game is Played:
Thursday, November 12-the DEM closed at 499.689 and POG USD at 296.200 [based on 1536 prices]
Friday, November 13-the DEM closed at 500.791 and POG USD at 296.800 [based on 606 prices]
Saturday, November 14-the DEM closed at 498.928 and POG USD at 296.100 [BASED ON ONE ( 1 ) PRICE]

1.863 move DOWN, based on "one price" eradicates a 1.102 move up based on 606 prices

3. The yuan/renminbi [ISO code "CNY"] continues to be a source of inspiration: the exchange between USD/CNY has been frozen for months at 8.277--.1208 ( although the CNY does move against the euro ) .
Thursday, November 12-the CNY POG closed at 2451.80 and POG USD was 296.200 [CNY/USD @ .1208/8.277]
Friday, November 13-the CNY POG closed at 2456..91 and POG USD was 296.800 [CNY/USD @ .1208/8.277
Might t we conjecture that CNY-POG is not based on the dollar?

4. Projection-Steady as she goes. Difficult to see any major changes [read "significant upward thrust"] unless the world falls apart. Sorry, but that is the way the numbers look.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:57 - ID#413273)
ROR...your understanding of South Africa shows your true colours,rape/murder is OK so long as it not
by White Anglo's....the people your type wanted to save from the "evil" White Africans are far worse of to-day than any other time in Southern African always makes my LOL when lawyers like you support a policy of hate and a lawless society....

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:57 - ID#119358)
( gulp ) ( puff )

gotta' git....bbl. GO GOLDBUGS!!!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 09:58 - ID#412286)
All the conservatives harp on is the Reagan revolution ( more appropriately "revulsion" ) . So how do they square his supposed ( false IMO ) greatness with the fact that Clinton is far more popular than Reagan at a similar time during his tenure. I think Clinton wants to do the right thing, FIRST of which is the Patient's Bill of Rights which will expand the ability of patients to sue HMOs and Insurance companies to ensure proper treatment for their spouses and most importantly ensure proper health care for the children. Clinton while not perfect IMO has some progressive tendencies and is certainly beeter than the pro insrance company republicans. NEWT GOOD RIDDANCE. I like the new guy He is not as conservative and kinda looks like my old hero Senator Geo. Mitchell from Maine.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:06 - ID#432395)
What do the charts, stars, gut feelings, say about the POG, for this coming week? TIA.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:08 - ID#412286)
I was referring to an associate who also does not like the Mandela govt. She worked for a separate faction under a guy named Slova. I think he is/was white. Any way she is a very compassionate Lawyer and a civil/consumer rights progressive activist.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:09 - ID#258142)
In attached daily POG chart for 1997-1998 there are two exponential moving averages - 30 days and 70 days. Current POG is above both, short term MA above long term. Looks bullish

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:09 - ID#341189)
Clinton statement on Iraq due at 10:30 ET- (in a few minutes)

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:23 - ID#334219)
DISNEY - On Barrick
Mon ami Disney, Barrick has been far from being stagnant over the last 3 years. It closed or sold mines with costs greater $200 and prepared new one. Still it maintained its production. Production will increased this year by an amount of ounces equal to last year Harmony production ( 750,000 ounces ) and at a cash cost of $50/US... This, alone, will bring in the same cash flow as if they were adding 3.5 millions ounces at a cash cost of $230/ounce ( or 3X Harmony 1999 production ) . I think we can say that they really know what to do with their cash flow.

They have grown from production of 186,000 ounces in 1986 to 596.000 ounces in 1990, 1.6M in 1993, 2.3M in 1994, 3.2 last year and 4.0 next year. That looks to me like they know what they are doing and used their cash flows adequately.

This being said, I recognized that Harmony has extremely high leverage in the case of higher gold prices and will gave much better returns to its shareholders than Barrick will.

But I disagree with you when you say that 3 years of gold lower $200 will kill the NA gold and let the SA survive. I hope you or I will never have to say "I told you so". Lets hope for higher gold prices.

BTW, I am not a fan of Barrick..own it several year ago but no longer will. I go with the juniors and mid-tiers. But when a company does something right, I think it should be recognized.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:24 - ID#45173)
Clinton due to start yappin' on Iraq any time now...
Clinton to make statement on Iraq at
1530 GMT

WASHINGTON, Nov 15 ( Reuters ) - U.S. President Bill Clinton
will make a statement on the situation in Iraq at 10:30 a.m. ( 1530
GMT ) on Sunday, White House spokesman Joe Lockhart said.

Lockhart declined to give details on what the president planned to

Washington on Saturday bluntly rejected as ``unacceptable'' an Iraqi offer to permit U.N. weapons inspectors
to resume their work searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, saying it wanted an unequivocal and
unconditional statement.

Iraq's U.N. ambassador revised the letter to the United Nations on Saturday in an effort to make it acceptable
to the United States, saying its offer was without any conditions.

U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told reporters on Sunday the United States -- which launched and
then aborted an air strike against Iraq on Saturday -- was studying Iraq's statements and was keeping all of its
options open.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:30 - ID#43460)
Simple, ROR, IMHO. Clinton is a shibboleth. The nation is polarised and is no longer one nation except in physical boundary. The two groups are not left and right nor have and have not nor black and white, but rather the two extremes of viewpoint as to the place of mankind versus manufactured collective entities ( the State, corporations, et cetera ) and indeed man's nature itself.

On the one hand are the proponents of Lockean natural law based either upon ( pre Jacobin ) humanistic ideas or upon one or another brand of theistic thought. On the other are the various brands of indeterminism and opportunism. Each side pays little attention to the core issues of the other.

I find it fascinating that, for instance, there is a good body of literary work by feminist authors, explicitly describing the basis for the opposition they receive on the subject of abortion; which work is not just ignored but rejected and the authors 'outed' as being traitors.
It remains fascinating that the "left" ( for lack of an agreed upon term defining them ) is held in check only by the fact that the vast majority of the "center" and "right" remain both armed and pacifistic. ( The most commonly given example of the latter is the fact that the majority of the anti-abortion believers also believe that murdering abortionists is as wrong as the abortion itself, thus keeping them in check. )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:30 - ID#413273)
ROR Joe mean the former KGB General..mentor of Mandela...compassion and the KGB.. LOL


(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:35 - ID#26793)
I love that item you lifted about Dell Computer gaining 10% per month. I just did a quick compute on Dell Computer. After the 7.6% drop on Friday Dell still has a market cap of $81.4 billion. All the gold in Ft. Knox has a market cap of $75 billion. Buy low, sell high; still is good advice.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:37 - ID#24135)
Bless you ..
Bless you .. try abx cash flow without
its hedges .. same basis as Harmony ..
then look at the cash flow ABSORBTION
required to operate as they do .. I would
find small joy in spending 200 $/oz
in capex and exploration charges in order
to find a low cost ( 50$ or so ) surface deposit
on an andean mountain top .. I find it
bizarre .. if you like it .. go for it.
but remember these brainy guys came very
close to buying Bre-x.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:37 - ID#43460)
ROR that wasn't clear; alas I'm not a trial liar (%-^])
I meant to say that the fact is that the internalised moral codes of the antiabortionists keep them in check but the fact that they are present and will not go away keeps abortion from continuing to expand to its next logical leve, that of infanticide. The fact that middle 'Merka ( and to a lesser extent middle 'Stralia and Canada ) remains armed is not relevent to this specific example except to demonstrate the basic fairness and goodness of the people you call 'rightists'. Were they as malevolent as their opposition there would be a bloodbath such as the one in Rwanda.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:45 - ID#286249)
GIBBOUS re: POG week-to-come
See post at 09:49 for my 'shot' at it. {:- )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:51 - ID#317211)
Saddam's cat & mouse game? NOT! WJC is a willing participant.
Saddam has had years to come up with a good strategy in dealing with
UN sanctions, and this one looks pretty good to me. Moving military
forces half-way 'round the planet is costing the US & UN billions,
but costs Saddam nothing.
He has also given Clinton an opportunity to deflect attention from his
personal & political problems while maintaining a high degree of popularity. And all this with robust media participation.

The mice, in this case, are the US taxpayers and Iraqi citizens.
Saddam is the cat. And Clinton is, as always, still a jerk.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:53 - ID#286249)
Donald -- Ravenfire, re:Dell
A company that increased Asian sales/profits by 49% the past quarter,
obviously knows the right magic incantations! One suspects they are
uttered by silk-suited forward options writers. Dell has obviously learned from past mistakes. {:- ) )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:55 - ID#45173)
Clinton decides to send inspectors back in
Saddam 3, Clinton 0

(Sun Nov 15 1998 10:58 - ID#43460)
Am unable to obtain good fried chicken livers; however the Krystal Chik sandwiches I had yesterday, confirmed later by taco, burrito, jalapenos and cervesa indicated a price in excess of $305 by Friday. ( Standard disclaimer appies. Remember Im not an analyst nor advisor. Am also not responsible for results due to inadequately spicy jalapenos! Warning, CHILDREN DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! The writer is a natural gastronomic wizard and such attempts may prove dangerous to amateur gastronomists. )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:03 - ID#26793)
New German political leader to visit U.S. to discuss his "new world order" target zones for Euro, do

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:09 - ID#26793)
Perhaps Brazil should buy $42 billion worth of Dell with the IMF bailout money. By next year they will be the richest country on earth and can bail us out for a change.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:12 - ID#242325)
Pat Buchanan on Iraq. A good antidote to the war mongering propaganda now filling the "free' press.

Pat Buchanan's Twice-Weekly Column

If your local newspaper does not feature Pat Buchanan's column, you should ask why.

Vince Page | Linda Bowles | Walter Williams | Home

What is our exit strategy in Iraq?

13 NOV 98  As the United States prepares yet another round of air strikes on Iraq, it is past time we thought this thing through to
the end game. Where are we going in the Gulf? Who and what are we defending? What is our exit strategy from a region where no vital
U.S. interest is at risk?

In this latest crisis, the United States is assembling some 300 aircraft, or 15 percent of the 2,000 used in Desert Storm. Plans are for
attacks lasting no more than two weeks, which is but one-third of the time the air armada of Desert Storm was given to smash Iraq. The
U.S.-British strikes thus cannot do much more than 5 percent of the damage done in 1991.

But if the Gulf War air campaign, accompanied by an invading army of 500,000, could not oust Saddam Hussein or destroy his
weapons of mass destruction, how can many fewer strikes by a far smaller force succeed? Saddam will likely ride out the coming storm,
with his weapons production capacity degraded but not destroyed.

Yes, Saddam is taking serious risks. He could be killed by a "bunker-buster," a U.S. bomb that counts down the number of floors it
passes through before exploding. He could be assassinated by an officer fed up with what he has done to Iraq. But death has always
been a close companion to Saddam; this is how he has chosen to live.

Now, consider what Saddam may gain from his great gamble.

Once again, he is center stage in world affairs. If he can ride out the storm, he becomes to the Arab masses the lone Arab ruler to fight
America and survive. His defiance, and Iraqi suffering under U.S. bombs, could ignite anti-America riots across the Middle East and
cause his admirers in Hezbollah, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad to strike at U.S. diplomats, tourists or facilities  causing a mass exodus
of Americans from the entire region.

Also, if he survives the strikes, that will be the end of the U.N. inspections. Then, Saddam can rely on Western greed  and Western
sympathy with the suffering of the Iraqi people under U.S. bombs and a U.S.-enforced blockade that yearly takes the lives of thousands
of Iraqi children  to bring about an eventual lifting of all sanctions.

What is Saddam's end game? He wants to be the Iraqi leader who restored the "19th province" of Kuwait and the Arab leader who drove
the last and greatest of the Western imperialists out of an "Islamic Middle East." These are not the goals of a madman.

But if Saddam's end game seems clear, what is ours?

President Clinton told a Veterans Day audience that Saddam cannot be allowed to defy the United Nations or to acquire weapons of mass
destruction to threaten his neighbors. But were it not for the United States, the United Nations would have lifted sanctions long ago. Not
a single member state, save Britain, is willing to go into action alongside the United States.

As for Iraq's neighbors, Jordan was a friend to Baghdad in the Gulf War, Syria and Iran are not our concern, and the Turks do not fear
Saddam, regularly invading Iraq to run down renegade Kurds. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have a U.S. shield, and if Saddam did not use
chemical weapons on the U.S. forces pulverizing his country in 1991, would he use them now and invite nuclear retaliation?

Who, then, does Saddam Hussein threaten? Israel? But Israel has nuclear weapons and could obliterate Baghdad, which is why the
Scuds fired at Tel Aviv in 1991 carried conventional explosives.

Wicked, Saddam may be; mad, he is not.

Saddam clearly believes that he can toy with the United States and survive the U.S. bombs and that, eventually, he will prevail when the
Americans, like the British, pack up and go home. And time does not appear to be an ally of the United States.

The Gulf coalition assembled by George Bush is history. Save Britain, no European, Asian or Arab ally is willing to use force to punish
Saddam or remove him. Though the "On-to-Baghdad" boys are whooping it up again, the United States, due to cuts in the military
during the Clinton years, lacks the power. We would have to draw down forces from all over the world to muster another army like the
one sent into Iraq under the command of Gen. Schwarzkopf.

Indeed, a good way to test the nation's appetite for marching to Baghdad, hanging Saddam and reconstructing Iraq would be to urge that
the draft be reinstated, with no student deferments  so we could send a citizens army to establish the new order in the Gulf.

The post-Cold War world is coming to an end. With the Kosovo Liberation Army returning to have yet another go at the Serbs, North
Korea inching back toward nuclearization, China about to test a new mobile ICBM, and Saddam inviting confrontation, the price of
global hegemony for the world's last superpower is going up.

Are Americans willing to pay it? Soon enough, we shall see.

Copyright 1998, Creators Syndicate

Vince Page | Linda Bowles | Walter Williams

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:15 - ID#286249)
Thru the transom: Subject: Clinton at the pearly gates!

Clinton died and went to heaven-or to be more accurate-approached the
Pearly Gates. After knocking at the gates, St. Peter appeared.

"Who goes there?" inquired St. Peter.

"'Tis I, your lordship, President Bill Clinton."

"And what do you want?" asked St. Peter.

"Lemme in!" replied Clinton.

"Soooo," pondered Peter. "What bad things did you do on earth?"

Clinton thought a bit and answered, "Well, I smoked marijuana, but you
shouldn't hold that against me because I didn't inhale. I guess I had
extramarital sex, but you shouldn't hold that against me because I didn't
really have sexual relations. And I lied, but I didn't commit perjury."

After several moments of deliberation St. Peter replied, "OK, here's the
deal. We'll send you someplace where it is very hot, but we won't call it 'Hell.'
You'll be there for an indefinite period of time, but we won't call it 'eternity.'
And don't 'abandon all hope' upon entering, just don't hold your breath waiting for it to freeze over.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:25 - ID#286249)
Donald--"Brazil should buy $42 billion worth of Dell"
LOL--Washington sorely needs YOUR input! {:- ) )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:36 - ID#432395)
Thanks for the opinions-@gagnrad--Hope your right...........close to a bathroom!!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:36 - ID#286249)
Currency Observation-

What one does see is the enormous pressure building. Saturday's 'adjustment' was without the usual grace and decorum, to mention one anomaly.
The Sunday quotes will be available to me after 7:00 Pacific US. After they're loaded, I'll report. bbml

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:38 - ID#24135)
You have interesting friends ..
Yes ROR ..
.. that lady you mentioned sounds like a real lulu..
For your info .. deaths in police detention are
now MUCH higher than at any time under Apartheid.
That other "faction" you mentioned led by Joe Slovo
was the REDS you poor man .. Slovo was a KGB colonel
( and a Stalinist ) as Robnoel says .. but not dopey
Nelsons mentor .. Joe is dead now .. died VERY badly
of cancer ..
( since big nellie was in the slammer most of the
time and Joe was elsewhere ) ..

Joe is dead now .. died VERY badly of cancer ..
But your friend is right about progressive developments to
come .. after Mandela goes
1. Capital punishment will be re-introduced in a big
2. There will be a big crackdown on the Unions ..
3. Most of the Reds will be eliminated .. they
are so weak now it's getting silly.. Jeremy
Cronim and Sam Shilowa are the only two real
ones left .. and shilowa would change sides for
1000 rand.
4. Mbeki will accomodate Anglos and the like.. cause
thats where the money comes from..

If that lady would like to visit some townships
I can perhaps help .. However, many civil rights
lawyers find a trip to the townships harmful to
their health. Would you like to accompany?

Tantalus Rex
(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:41 - ID#295111)
@SDRer, @Old gold
SDRer: Thx, got a great chuckle on Clinton vs St. Peter.
Old gold: Thx for the Pat Buchanan post. I agree with everything Pat wrote.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 11:58 - ID#219363)
Regarding your question asking if Kitco had honestly made any difference in people's investing, that is, had anyone made money because of Kitco, I can say yes. Not only has Kitco helped me make money on speculation, it's also helped me save money by not losing it on other investments.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:03 - ID#373403)
SDR 11:36(Currency observations)
What adjustment was made Saturday?


(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:04 - ID#26793)
This is no time to cut interest rates

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:12 - ID#286249)
Missing Link--see item #2
Sunday Currency Report
1. POG in all monitored currencies neatly bracketed by 3P- POG in euro and 3P -POG in USD. However, the POG euro is under enormous strain ( wants to be higher )
2. How the Game is Played:
Thursday, November 12-the DEM closed at 499.689 and POG USD at 296.200 [based on 1536 prices]
Friday, November 13-the DEM closed at 500.791 and POG USD at 296.800 [based on 606 prices]
Saturday, November 14-the DEM closed at 498.928 and POG USD at 296.100 [BASED ON ONE ( 1 ) PRICE]
1.863 move DOWN on "one price" eradicates a 1.102 move up based on 606 prices

3. The yuan/renminbi [ISO code "CNY"] continues to be a source of inspiration: the exchange between USD/CNY has been frozen for months at 8.277--.1208 ( although the CNY does move against the euro ) .
Thursday, November 12-the CNY POG closed at 2451.80 and POG USD was 296.200 [CNY/USD @ .1208/8.277]
Friday, November 13-the CNY POG closed at 2456..91 and POG USD was 296.800 [CNY/USD @ .1208/8.277
Might t we conjecture that CNY-POG is not based on the dollar?

4. Projection-Steady as she goes. Difficult to see any major changes [read "significant upward thrust"] unless the world falls apart. Sorry, but that is the way the numbers look.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:16 - ID#219363)
NOW that the Treasury policy freaks' round of self-congratulation over the Brazil bailout package has died away, we might consider what the market operators are making of the long-awaited $40 billion plus package. A few weeks ago, you may recall, I suggested that the announcement would be the cue to take your money out of the place, and to say a silent prayer of thanks to the rich world's taxpayers who will have made the profit-taking possible.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:20 - ID#35757)
Yea, maybe you will get your medical care, but prepare for a ( very progressive ) microchip up your backside.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:22 - ID#219363)
Recent past sips a bit of euro's fizz
NEW YORK - Almost everywhere on Wall Street excitement is building for Europe's plan to break a bottle of champagne against the bow of its new euro currency Jan. 1. Unfortunately, the essence of the bubbly enthusiasm carries a hint of a bitter aftertaste from the recent past. It wasn't even 18 months ago that many were still convinced the Southeast Asian Tiger economies had embraced the essential traits of American-style capitalism and markets. Not even a year ago investors were happily buying bonds issued by Russians who had shed their evil ways and embraced ours. Now there seems little doubt that the Europeans will operate a central bank encharged with policymakers just as skillful as Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:29 - ID#219363)
David Tice Commentary, 13 Nov 98
With the Dow gaining 89 points on the final day of the week, the bulls can enjoy the weekend with the perception that the summer financial storm has passed and all is now well with the eternal bull market. And the Saturday and Sunday papers are certain to highlight the $42 billion bailout package for Brazil as well as a series of economic reports that give fuel to the optimists. With Greenspan cutting rates and Rubin orchestrating bailouts, the bulls are more convinced than ever that the only thing to fear is fear itself. And with this, Wall Street's confidence game is certainly 'If everyone just stays bullish and buys more stocks and junk bonds, markets go higher and the economy keeps growing'. This view was reinforced today with the release of October Retail Sales that surprised on the upside with a 1% gain as sales of durable goods and autos were particularly strong. Also, the University of Michigan reported consumer confidence bounced back strongly from last month with a big jump in the future expectations component that had been plummeting. This follows data from auto manufacturers showing that October was one of the biggest months in history, and from retail chain stores that also reported strong sales.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:32 - ID#153102)
@Two Nations in America
One is dedicated to the principles declared in the Declaration of Independence in 1776; the other, formalized in the Declaration of Governmental Interdependence of 1935 ( See my earlier, very important post to Tolerant1 ) is abridging, infringing, taxing, denying and disparaging the rights of the first.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:35 - ID#219363)
The world's forgotten danger
"I'M FOREVER blowing bubbles, pretty bubbles in the air. They fly so high, nearly reach the sky, then like my dreams they fade and die . . ." American investors and consumers would be wise to heed the old song: the stockmarket bubble that has lifted the prosperity of many Americans beyond their wildest dreams is, sooner or later, going to end. In the past four years, soaring share prices and easy credit have sent consumers and businesses on a spending binge. Their excesses now leave America's economy vulnerable to a sharp slowdown and maybe even to a recession. Regular readers will recall that this is not the first time The Economist has fretted about America's bubble economy. In April we suggested that there were worrying signs of an asset-price bubble in the United States: soaring share prices, a frothy property market and excessive monetary growth. Some air was let out of Wall Street when share prices tumbled during the summer. Yet the market has since bounced back by almost a fifth, taking it to within 5% of its peak in July. This is proof, say some analysts, that the market was not overvalued after all. Well, maybe. More likely, it makes the American stockmarket a very risky place indeed.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:42 - ID#24135)
Macro - chip
for morbius
Could we make that a very LARGE
micro chip for insertion into
ROR. say about the size of a garden
That guy is Jane Fonda in drag..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:43 - ID#219363)
Unit Labor Costs Should Not Preclude A November 17 Ease
Nonfarm business unit labor cost growth for the third quarter was reported up 1.7% quarter-to-quarter annualized and 2.6% from the same quarter year-ago. This was a little slower than the consensus estimate and a lot slower than the second quarter growth in unit labor costs of 3.7%. On a year-over-year basis, unit labor cost growth is slowly tacking northward from the cycle lows recorded in early 1996. Will this preclude a Fed easing on November 17? Doubtful. For starters, the absolute level of unit labor cost growth remains low. Moreover, in this period in which foreign competition is limiting the pricing power of US corporations, the largest impact of rising unit labor costs is on profits, not inflation. And the response of corporations to falling profits is layoffs. So, if the FOMC is inclined to ease policy on November 17, which I think it is, the third quarter unit labor cost data should not preclude it.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:46 - ID#35757)
Have you seen Bergman's "Hour Of The Wolf"?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:49 - ID#219363)
Japan Airlines To Cut 2,300 jobs

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:53 - ID#24135)
Better dead than Red ..
For ROR ..
That lady that you are an "associate" with was in
the Communist Party if she worked for Slovo .. You
say she was brave .. lots of Reds were brave ...
of course, that doesnt mean you shouldn't hang them.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:53 - ID#219363)
Russia's Repayment Moratorium Ends
MOSCOW ( AP ) -- A 90-day moratorium on Russia's foreign debt repayments expired Sunday, but the government and the country's troubled commercial banks still may not be able to resume payments. The Russian government decided Aug. 17 to impose a temporary moratorium on repayments of foreign commercial debt when it devalued the ruble. Many foreign creditors threatened to seize Russian assets overseas as collateral, but they took little action. Some of the country's larger banks now will be able to pay their debts, but many others will face lawsuits and see their foreign assets seized, the Interfax news agency said.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:55 - ID#219363)
@John Disney
Kill a commie for mommy. ( I loved the 70's )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:56 - ID#153110)
@morbius @Nope

(Sun Nov 15 1998 12:56 - ID#266105)
blood pressure medicine

Or than the 1993 Deficit Reduction Fund, which has been credited with
$500 billion over the past five years--without effecting a single dollar in savings.

To see how the shell game works, imagine a hypothetical revenue dollar. It's first credited to the Social Security trust funds, where it's saved once, then to the Deficit Reduction Fund, where it's saved again,
then to the Protect Social Security Account, where it's saved a third time. And after all that, Congress gets to spend it. The hitch is that each dollar of paper savings creates a dollar of paper debt. No matter how many times Congress multiplies the transaction, it still nets to zero.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:00 - ID#317211)
Oooops! John Glenn almost let it slip just now on "Meet the Press"
that him going back into space "was some sort of personal favor to me".

Bingo. Bakshish, mordida, payback for being the Dem's attack dog during
the campaign finance hearings. Carville was still in hiding, I guess.
Thanks from Clinton/Gore, John.

Not me!

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:11 - ID#430260)
Does anyone know where I can find the historic silver gold ratios year per year. When was the last time silver approached gold in value ( within single digit multiples ) . Didn't they actually equal each other in ancient times?


They should have left Glenn up there.

Bully Beef
(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:18 - ID#259282)
After a year of participating here I have had to stand back
ands watch what is said here with some objectivity.I looked forward to the discussion here. But when I saw Aurator apologize for going against the grain here I knew something was wrong. I know there are people here that disagree with Disney and Mozel but they never speak up. Your silences are the most disturbing to me. I am personally saddened by comments like kill a commie. There never has been a commie on this site. I am embarrassed to have participated into something that has degenerated into this. And many of you call yourselves open minded and Christian. Well pat each other on the back. YUK YUK!
The silences are disturbing. Allowing this type of talk or without rebuke leads to these ideas becoming acceptable among the general population.This is no place for people who believe the best in humanity and hope for the future. I know people envolved in this site and I don't know how they can participate in it when some comments I have seen are accepted.
In summation have good lives.What goes around comes around. I've been too envoved here and I'm just so embarrassed. I'm really going to try to avoid looking back at the comments.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:23 - ID#219363)
@Bully Beef
I'm sorry the sarcasm in my comment didn't transmit well *grin*.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:24 - ID#24135)
I hope ..
Bully Beef ..
that you are right ..
and that what goes around comes
around .. I await that day ..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:28 - ID#396249)
Bully Beef....a pat on the back is 2 feet away from a kick in the butt


(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:29 - ID#35757)
A must see. I think you will like it.

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:39 - ID#430260)
"...Your silences are the most disturbing to me. I am personally saddened by
comments like 'kill a commie'..."

Well, Bully, Would "kill a beef" make you feel any better.

Please keep in mind it is highly unlikely this forum is frequented by any massmurderers. However history books recount the 5 million Ukranians starved to death in the 1930's by communists. The Million Afghans murdered by the Soviet communists in the '80's, the 50+ million chinese exterminated by Moa. Kill a commie, kill a Nazi--means the same thing to me. --AG

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:40 - ID#317211)
@Bully Beef - speaking for myself only
I have learned a lot from Disney & mozel's posts here. Don't agree on some of what they say, but refrain from throwing stones in an effort to be open minded.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:43 - ID#25490)
Wiping the sleep from my eyes
Bully Beef
My apology was for a statement of personal abuse aimed, in a salty moment, at mozel, not my central theme of dispute with him. I know he took it as my capitulation, but I no longer cared.

I am glad that you have been following this thread, and hope you continue to contribute your ha'pennyworth.

Go gold ha'pennies!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:48 - ID#43460)
Bully Beef re opinions
I believe that this thread provides background information on social processes which in turn impinge upon the price of gold. Whether you call Kitcoites collegues, friends, compeditors or whatever you lose that information when you ignore it. IMHO of course.

Your comment "...Allowing this type of talk or without rebuke leads to these ideas becoming acceptable among the general population...." reveals your own prejudices in the matter of the ongoing cultural conflicts which shape our world and in turn the POG. While one might find critique a valid concept the concept of rebuke is invalid. Rebuke is what one does to members of ones own moity ( moity may be interpreted to mean sect, family, group, kinship, etc ) when they stray from mutually agreed upon acceptable behavior. IMHO

Rebuke directed toward members of another moity ( in this case "the right" ) designed to prevent them from expressing divergent opinion and culturally specific jokes is both dangerous to the process of dialog and to process of information gathering. As does attempt to place them in ones own moity. IMHO

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:49 - ID#219363)
Kitco gets dragged down into another boring tireless discussion about who said what to whom, when, and why they should have or shouldn't have said whatever they said, etc, etc, until the end of next week, I'll just go ahead and sacrifice myself on the funeral fires and leave. I'm not even going to attempt to explain my own brand of sarcastic humor, or, well, just whatever *rolls eyes*. I'll just go the way of the Rich, the Squirrel, and all the other good folks who used to post here and find different hunting grounds. It's been real and it's been fun, happy investing. Gold bugs will eventually see there day in the sun. Ta ta!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:56 - ID#35757)
Haven't seen rich for a while but Squirrel was here yesterday.As much as we might want we cant mine pure gold here. Ther is inevitably the rock, the quartz and the downright dirt. I consider Kitco to be a rich find however.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 13:57 - ID#26793)
@Gusto Oro
I can e.mail you a daily silver/gold ratio chart back to January 1, 1975. I have earlier but it gets compressed if there is too much data.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:08 - ID#119358)
snap out of it, mi amigo.........if I apologized for every stoopid thing I say, I wouldn't have enough time to say stoopid things. Come on, friend, let's hear it all...this ain't politics. and I thank God. ;^ ) ~ G&P to YA!!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:09 - ID#317211)
Got me some chicken & some Satchmo
"Struttin with some BBQ". Mmm Mmm good.

Gold back down to $290 area by this Friday ( hope I'm wrong )

G'day to all.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:10 - ID#25490)
Colour in the pan....
Your contributions to this site belie your years.
I look forward to continuing to read your take on events. Morbius is quite right, hard rock mining is a fine metaphor for this kitco. You gotta scout around a lot, take several wrong paths, and then, when you find the mother load you have to remove a ton of overburden to gain a few grams of gold. The question is, are you up to it?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:15 - ID#119358)
@and I respect the hell outta' rOr....damnit.....for holding his ground.....
even though I can't get there from here....maybe he knows something I don't...maybe, vice versa...but I assume he's one helluva' good man or he wouldn't hang around here....

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:17 - ID#25490)
Just said cul8r to an old friend who taught me to use a sound desk. We did several shows together way back when, interviewed some fine musos on air, Wayne Toops, Guy Clark & Steve Young.

In case noone can see the relationship to gold:

Cherish friendship in your breast.
New is good but old is best.
Make new friends but keep the old,
New is silver, the other is gold.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:17 - ID#31868)
Stu...Stu...STUDIO_R, Namaste' and a Happy Sunday gulp and a puff to
the mention of Jerry Jeff Walker yesterday it ignited the purchasing in me...ahhhhhhh...fondling gold and platinum and listening to JJW on an incredible day on the Island that is Long and covered with Fall colors...


John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:23 - ID#24135)
for Bully Beef ..
Reds destroyed the lives of several
generations of Russians ... all in the
the name of helping the worker ..
.. I take that crap seriously ..
.. Americans working for Stalinist
Joe Slovo in hopes of a RED blood bath
in RSA make me very angry .. as
far as I am concerned .. nothing is
too bad for them..
.. they miscalculated because the
ANC only wanted Power .. NOT
social upheaval .. it is said that
at least 1/3 of the ANC in Parliament
were at one time Police informers ..
Winnie and Peter Mokaba for sure.
.. The Nats were becoming riddled
with leftish types .. an recurring
joke was that the ANC HAD to win the
election to ensure continuity of
Government .. The joke's on ROR's
friend .. if she was an activist
NOW .. she would just be quietly
detained and deported ..

For Envy ..
stick around ..dont be worried
about bully beef .. ROR's OKay
.. he just doesnt know much...
a lawyer you know ..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:25 - ID#266105)

This site does not conform to my expectations. It challenges
the infinite regressions mapping my synapses. I'm leaving. Bye.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:27 - ID#119358)
@yowzer.......the only thing that would make this fall/spring day a bunch better.....
would be actually hangin' out together...fer sure.

T#1....I swear there's nuttin' like muzac to turn your head the right glimpse the beauty...WoW!!!! some of those ol' friends of our auratOr ( JJW, GuyC... ) have got it just about half figured out, or more.

A huge GulpO y PuffO to yA ( y me MummO ) !!!on the Island that is Long.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:32 - ID#25490)
Seven Bridges Road.........Lonesome Ornery & Mean....
Steve Young leaves them all behind, imho. His version of Robbie Robertson's "The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down" sends shivers up my back, mustabeen a southron boy in another life.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:36 - ID#190411)
I don't know what it was, Envy,
but I surely wish that you would reconsider.
Your leaving will diminish the quality of this site.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:36 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:46 - ID#412286)
John Disney
My associate worked in RSA as she abhored apartheid and all forms of racism. The battle was successful and apartheid is ended and RSA is a better country.

I work alot with labor unions and the employment area. If you saw some of the injustices perpetrated by the private sector it would make your skin crawl. I think the solution to the worlds problems is greater unionism and on an international basis so there can be worldwide strikes..I am thinking globally here. This would help end the exploitation of children, women , old people and minorities on a worldwide basis. We need a world weide Bill of Rights which can be acted upon by annyone in the world in an international court with awards enforced by sanctions. In sum, to maintain proper balance we need to internationalize the US legal system and make legal assistance available to the poorest citizens through an international UN funded law organization. This will democratize the world and spread the prosperity.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:51 - ID#119358)
@auratOr, whew! you pack a good punch......nice verse, amigO......
yes, you have come to know performing musicians, commonly mistaken by many as shallow-steppin', weak-kneed pansies, who walk onto a stage each nite and disrobe their souls allowing every tom, dicknose and monica to take their shot at 'em. what'll it be tonight? flying tomatoes....blown kisses...a convention of don rickles sound-alikes...huh?
all to say....I know this skin heals.....why worry about it's thickness?

gods love ya' back to the sliding potentiometer........hey! RADIO LAND!!!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:56 - ID#25490)
Bare Facts
In Nude Sealand
We have the right to bare arms.
We also have the right to bare legs, bare feet and bare stomachs.
Knadian women fought for and gained the right to bare breasts. Sadly, kiwi women have not taken up their cudgels in the fight for the right to bare breasts. Does that mean that kiwi women are communists?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 14:57 - ID#119358) noted.......Steve Young...bttb.
( bad to the bone ) it, sir.

2brO2b......kiddin' right? hope soooooooo. huh?

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:02 - ID#24135)
where's that macro chip ??
ROR ..
You're a lulu too .. ror .. and that was your opinion.
and mine is not like that at all .. I believe that
first of all we should eliminate the legal profession.
After we have done that, Ill get back to you ..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:03 - ID#25490)
You challenge to sober fingers, don't go, bro. I'll even forgive you for your low blow, bro, when my Ka was rolled down a bank in Tuakau.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:04 - ID#119358)
@auratOr...yes, and speakin' of breasts..........since you brought it up.........
I was told once by a fellow in da' know, that old man H.L. Hunt, father of the very greatest Texas empire to date, did not wean off his mommy until he was fourteen. Indeed he was a Great Texan.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:06 - ID#25490)
Bite your lip! :- ) The legal profession are my crients. Elimate them and I got no crients. Then I'll be indigent and shall need to seek alms ( bare alms ) chez crusty.


away to install software for a new crient.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:06 - ID#24135)
I know how you feel ..
2bro2b ..
My synapses are regressing too ..
Im outta here .. looking for
lawyers ..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:11 - ID#266105)

Just a bit of mockery...

Nocte Volens
(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:11 - ID#390135)
Surely you are not suggesting that ills of this world can be cured by more big labour unions and more ( shudder ) lawyers?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:13 - ID#254288)
Gold(en) Eagle site has new article by Ted Butler on silver

You'll know how to get their right?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:14 - ID#25490)
moi aussis, bro

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:18 - ID#412286)
Nocte Volens
The US legal system is the envy of the world. Yes the expansion of unionism and the rule of law would enhance prosperity, equality and social and economic justice. It would go along way towards the greedy abyss into which Wall St is leading the world.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:21 - ID#413273) this what they teach you at law school?... explain how all your hero's are thugs aka lawyers

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:23 - ID#190411)
Another search engine,FWIW
An employee that needed to come in today to do some government work told me that he heard a good review on the radio, of a search engine that is supposed to be something like LEXIS/NEXIS.

I haven't tried it, other than getting the address.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:29 - ID#24135)
You Mean ..
you were only mocking ??

ROR ..
The US legal system is the laughing
stock of the world ..

Nocte Volens
(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:37 - ID#390135)
The U.S. legal system is corrupt and self serving. It is held up as an example of what is wrong with the U.S.. The large unions are equally corrupt. Imagine a world run by the Teamsters and their lawyers. ( I probably should be more careful about what I say or I could wind up with a horse head in my bed ) ; )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:37 - ID#266105)

In my experience the net effect of exiting these thingies
here is that of a pebble in pool.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:40 - ID#286230)
What goes around etc..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:46 - ID#423380)
U.S. Legal system--Envy of the world-- HAR HAR HA HA HA HA, AND HA!!!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:48 - ID#194311)
Default-day in Russia tomorrow...90 day moratorium ends.
Russia's shell-shocked banks face D-Day as moratorium expires

MOSCOW, Nov 15 ( AFP ) - Russia's shell-shocked banks face D-Day
on Monday as the government finally removes a last line of defence
which had protected them from the big guns of large western banks
owed billions of dollars in loans.
But instead of carnage and dismemberment, analysts expect it to
be all quiet on the western front, as foreign creditors realise that
they must forge a civilised solution to the complex mess of debt,
default and deceit which has enmeshed Russia in an unprecedented
financial tangle.
Until Monday morning, the deadly noose tightened around the
necks of Russia's horribly exposed bankers had been loosened by a
90-day moratorium on the repayment of all commercial loans.
Some analysts say that in certain western circles there is the
feeling that the moratorium merely gave Russian banks a chance to
hive off all their useful assets so that they have even less to
offer creditors.
"The moratorium has brought nothing," said Irene Shevchenko of
Moscow's Alfa Capital. "Instead of shutting in August, the banks
will shut now. This has just given them time to strip off what they
had and put it in offshore accounts. The government gave them three
months to rob."
Such a state of affairs means that western banks will have even
less incentive to consider the option of swapping the debt they are
owed for equity in the banks.
"We haven't seen the worst of the crisis yet," Shevchenko added.
"The second phase with more scandals and defaults is to come."
The cash-strapped government and wily central bank will yet play
key roles in the banking crisis.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:50 - ID#26793)
Rudi Dornbusch says Brazil did not slide home safe; will explode by Carnival time

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 15:57 - ID#24135)
Gee ..
ROR ..
seems like a few guys dont agree
with you on your " aren't lawyers great"
theme .. Sorry

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:01 - ID#26793)
Comments on the next week in markets

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:02 - ID#368244)

ROR, I see you are doing your Jerry Lewis impersonation again. At least you have a sense of humor, others here find fault so easily, and were mistreated from the womb till today.

I used to wish that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth, but then I would have probably swallowed it.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:02 - ID#24135)
Im on to your tricks ..
Salty .. you devil ..
little do your crients know that all
their software will self destruct on
January 1, 2000... this will send
the legal profession back to the stone
age .. nice going salty .. destroy from
within ..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:06 - ID#412286)
who hate the US Legal system should go sign a contract or try and buy property in Russia. Our Legal system is the basis for our super power status both in economics and respect. Generally people who have money hate lawyers as our contingency based legal system gives the little guy a chance against the rich and the corporations. The law and lawyers inhibit the dickensonian/darwinistic tendency of most of the corporate elite. Unions also help even the economic playing field hence the rath of the rich and the corporations. UNION YES!!! They raise the std of living for all except the rich.

Nocte Volens
(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:13 - ID#390135)
Perhaps if you posted using ALL CAPS you might convince someone that your ideas are valid. I personally was touched by your last post ( eyes rolling ) . I am not rich, I work for an average wage, and am a member of a union. However I would like to be rich ( wouln't we all ) and am smart enought to realize that lawyers and union leaders are not the ones to help me get there.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:15 - ID#290172)
Much to admire about Japan...
Another fundamental difference between the US and Japan is the legal system. The most apparent difference is that of numbers, while there are some 50,000 new lawyers annually in the United States, Japanese law only allows 700 people to pass the bar exam each year.

Nocte Volens
(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:16 - ID#390135)
Sorry, forgot to mention that I'm not Merkan, just a Canajun with a slightly less ( but gaining rapidly ) corrupt legal system.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:17 - ID#432395)
What are you smoking man?
" contingency based legal system gives the little guy a chance against the rich and the corporations".

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:22 - ID#227238)
The wealthy get their ice in the summer,
The poor get their's in the winter,
Lawyers insure that it will never change.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:23 - ID#254112)
@Bully Beef: Your comments on the kitco site do not match
what I feel about it.
Take mozel as an example. To summarize my own impressions, I think mozel is a completely unique ( and therefore rare ) spiritual and cultural phenomenon. A phenomenon which could only develop in America. He is in strong opposition to main stream America. He abhorres FDR's politics. He abhorres Bolshevism. The result of his thinking ( of which's origins I do not understand at all anything about ) is peaceful in its international consequences. In short: kitco, as a think tank, should be greatful to have his contributions.

That doesn't mean that I always agree with him. But I'm interested to read his opinions.

I took mozel as an example. I wouldn't like to shut down any strong opinion expressed on this site. But I agree with those who often complain that the discussion is not always free enough, because too many burning issues become limited by the question: What does that have to do with gold?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:23 - ID#290172)
Donald, the numbers don't add up...
FT 9/15
The Lex Column
"Real Maths"

The maths are daunting. Around 60 percent of Brazil's R$340bn ( $290bn ) domestic debt is linked to OVERNIGHT RATES. Last week's increase to nearly 50 per cent therefore has the effect of adding $70bn a year - or 9% of gross domestic product - to an already unsustainable budget deficit of 7 per cent. As if that were not enough, much of the debt is of extremely short maturity: about $90bn is due to be repaid in the next two months.

.Another option would be to ask the International Monetary Fund for a bailout. Unfortunately, the fund does not have enough cash to underwrite the entire debt coming due. And, while it would probably be willing to subscribe a smaller sum, an inadequately-funded rescue package would risk being blown away by the market.

Brazil is living on borrowed time."

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:29 - ID#368244)

I am sure that you would agree that any lawsuit defended successfully , should result in the parties bringing the suit, paying all expenses and an equal amount to the defendant. Would you still want to be a lawyer?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 16:58 - ID#147201)
ERLE re search
Your reference re Nothern Lights search is good. I just stuck in "Bechtler" and got 2 sites. Bechtler was a private minter in N.C. 1831 + and minted gold coins which are extremely rare, so this site looks good. Charlie

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:04 - ID#430260)
Unions also beat up people who need jobs, threaten innocent workers, dump sugar in people's gas tanks, dip into the paychecks of people who work for a living to lay expensive carpet in the offices of union leaders, and help vote in socialist ilk like Bill Clinton. They have become the enemy they once fought. Some while ago unions also went on strike in the shipping yards where a certain ocean passenger liner was being fitted causing several weeks of delays. The liner finally made its voyage but struck an iceberg and sank with loss of 1500 lives.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:08 - ID#252391)
To Jack
Would you mind posting the URL for Ted Butler's silver comments. With my less that swift computer it takes all day to log on and find articles on Golden Eagle - the slowest download in all gold. It's a great resource but the graphics download is tooooo slow.

Could you help by posting the URL for his article then I can go straight to it with out having to wait through the adds for Sun Mines - or what ever that great buy is.aolt

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:11 - ID#147201)
SDRer re our conversation
To make a long story short, let me refer you to Tantalus Rex's post 11/13 at 21:51 and David Henry's article in USA TODAY 11/12. They have done a good job. I just can't see how this white elephant can get thru the bush- too radical of a change with nothing but a rule by committee. Is there any way in hell of getting a composite chart of the POG/$ /Euro for about a year?? Thanx for your patience. PS the chart of the POG/Swiss Franc shows some signs that Europeans are buying insurance.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:12 - ID#228128)
Too many of em
ROR - The last two lawyers that I dealt with were heck of a nice guys. I don't have anything personal against the profession or those that populate it but it seems to me that in the USA there are too many of them. My insurance agent tells me that 1/2 of the accidents where I live, mostly fender benders, result in lawsuits. I see these relatively small accidents going to work from time to time and there is frequently an ambulance hauling people away from what would seem a minor accident. It seems a monumental waste of time and other peoples money to support a cottage industry in litigation in this country. I often wonder how much of the cost that I pay for the basic necessities is due to built in costs of litigation. The unions served a purpose in the first 1/2 of this century and helped to rid us of some very abusive practises by the private sector. By the 60s they had become more enemy to society then benefactor. In both cases too much money and power corrupts. The founding fathers knew that aspect of human nature well 200 plus years ago and set up the government so that the three major branches of government would function to keep each other in check. We need some intelligent solutions today from some real statesmen. Unfortunately we have scumbags running the country.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:16 - ID#119358)
@reaching up for the perry mason jar..........
unfortunately I have needed to assume the role as plantiff over the years, and I have found good lawyers to be an absolute necessity. And I will freely say that I know of several whom I regard as highly as any businessman that I have ever known. Good, decent men and women ( including my younger sis who hangs her shingle at the US Treasury Dept ) who stalwartly maintain a commendable sense of justice and fairplay. Yup, it's that same ol' generalisation problem........that dog don't hunt.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:16 - ID#26793)
Guandong losses now at US$3 billion and more China news

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:17 - ID#412286)
I am against loser pays rule as it would inhibit people of modest means going forward with the suit and would be a club used by the rich and the big corporations. I do believe where a case is truly frivolous or brought in bad faith sanctions can and are imposed. But a strict rule would be antithical to justice as many disputes do not have a clear winner and bith sides have tenable positions. A strict loser pays rule would balance the system in favor of the one with the deepest pockets. FOOTNOTE THE DEMOCRATIC VICTORY HAS ALL BUT ENDED ANY CHANCE FOR THE BIG CORPS DRIVE AT TORT REFORM. Sometimes justice wins out.
Further, in 2000 it will be the Republicans who will have big exposure. It was shveet to see Trial Attorney John Edwards unseat Senator Lauch Faircloth in the N. Carolina Senate race. Upshot, the average person is not nearly as stupid as you think. Congrats To John Edwards, ESQ.the new Senator from North Carolina.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:18 - ID#254288)


(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:22 - ID#254288)

When you put in the url take the ( en ) out of golden and it should work.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:23 - ID#412286)
Who do you propose tell someone they are not hurt. Do you want the insurance company to have more power as with the HMO disaster ( which I believe shows what happens when people are left without legal recourse ) . If you ever get in an accident and are hurt you will change your tune. Yes there are fraudulent claims and most result in 0. However, do we want to inhibit legitimate claims because of a few bad examples. I think not. Further, other countries do not have as many lawyers as the economie are more govt regulated and socialist. Sorry but you cant have your cake and eat it too.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:23 - ID#412286)
Who do you propose tell someone they are not hurt. Do you want the insurance company to have more power as with the HMO disaster ( which I believe shows what happens when people are left without legal recourse ) . If you ever get in an accident and are hurt you will change your tune. Yes there are fraudulent claims and most result in 0. However, do we want to inhibit legitimate claims because of a few bad examples. I think not. Further, other countries do not have as many lawyers as the economie are more govt regulated and socialist. Sorry but you cant have your cake and eat it too.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:29 - ID#26793)
Gold and silver prices rise Saturday in India. Prices in rupees.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:31 - ID#190411)
I am glad to be of service.
I'll check the search site later.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:34 - ID#26793)
India prices
Those India prices seem to put gold at US$300.75 if I did the math right

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:35 - ID#37463)
In partial defense of lawyers and ROR
I don't know if the US legal system is the envy of the world ( I think that my be a stretch of credulity. However, a country without lawyers would be a frightening place. Lawyers often stand as the wall between rule of law and chaos. No one will dispute that trial lawyers as a whole are a low life bunch and they they engender frivolous law suits which should be best forgotten and the insult or wrong suffered ( i. e. Paul Jones who received $850M for having to view Clinton's rod and staff ) . However, from my experience ( and I'm sure I'll take grief from this ) lawers are more ethical than most professions with which I have dealt. In particular the lawyers who are not ambulence chasers. The USA could just as easily have the British rule where the prevaling party collects attorney fees from the loser. However in the USA we have given the small guy the chance to bring a contingent fee case without putting up money up front. It is just a shame that what was a good idea originally has turned in to a circus. I never advise a client to bring what I consider to be a frivolous law suit. I tell them to swallow their pride adn save their money. In litigation no one really wins.

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:39 - ID#377196)
A third vote for Butler
I will add my two cents by saying Butler's article on silver is most
interesting. I like the long term view. If this is true we really are
at a point of change in world economics which is going to be most

His comment that the billion ounce short position in silver cannot
be repaid is the same comment I make from time to time on gold: the
14,000 ton short position will never be repaid in gold because I believe
is was never meant to be repaid in gold but in EUROS.

I don't know about silver. But I fear paper silver contracts because
the government can come in at any time and end the game. I would not
put it beyond the goverment to have allowed these short positions
preciesly so that it could take over total control of the PM markets.
I contend that the gold people will have to fight the paper money crowd
with fangs and claws. I don't know exactly what I mean by this but
it is not going to be easy as the government is not going to roll over
and die. We can all count on that.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:40 - ID#412286)
Thanks. I have a question to pose to everyone. What does it indicate when go to the Saturday edition of the Hindu Times to find a quote showing gold has risen. Such persistence is remarkable and I hope the quote is right..but we all know that deep down it isnt..right?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:43 - ID#252150)
Envy@I never mentioned Kitco in my post. I simply stated that there was a lot of
superfluous financial info available on the WWW. A way more than can be processed & retained by the avg investor, & that I doubt if the avg investor who uses the WWW for investment advice & decisions can honestly say that his investment performance has improved because of it. As an example, the people who are making huge gains on the internet stock mania are just gambling & obviously don't pay attention to conventional investment wisdom of the sort found on Kitco.

I'm glad to know that you have profitted from your Kitco relationship. We are fortunate to have some of the best minds on the net contributing here. However, since I have been following Kictco for the last 1 1/2 yrs+ I have had decidedly mixed results. I have leaned towards the bearish camp for POG, but in no small part because of advice & URLs posted here I caught most of the 2 major moves this year. On the other side of the coin I have been killed in some tech shorts. The negative tenor towards equities expressed on this forum by most posters & the many URLs reposted EG Tice, may have put me in an even more negative mind set towards equities than I already had. I'm presently holding losing shorts ( barely ) in SPY, AMAT & also Jan2000 INTC put LEAPS. However, I have no doubt that the wisdom expressed on this forum will eventually be borne out & if I can persevere I'll come out on top. Now, if I could just get this timing thingy down :- ) .

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:50 - ID#194311)
The euro gold and the dollar.
Supposing that the EC countries will finally make good on their ambitions to have price stability within their trading bloc, what will this mean for the price of gold and the price of dollars in euros?

Given that the Bretton-Woods system of settlements was dismantled by the USA in 1971 as it's inability to exchange dollars for gold at the agreed upon amount, there is really only one good conclusion. For the intervening 28 years the europeans have worked to reestablish a "euro Bretton-Woods" whereby accounts could be settled between nation states with the exchange of gold, this is what the failure of Bretton-Woods has deprived them of. As all currencies have been floating in the interim it is no suprise things have gotten terribly mis-aligned, who really knows what the US dollar price of gold should be? Well we are fast approaching the telling moment when the question will really be asked of the US dollar.

It is clear that the euro bloc still consider gold to be the one currency each nation agrees to be worthy for balance of payment settlements, as they did under Bretton-Woods. Now however they will force the hand of the USA to make good on it's balances in gold. This will mean two things will happen very rapidly.
i ) Gold will be announced to have a fixed trading price in euros, the euros will be as good as gold, and thus useful in all international dealings of trade or finance. This means there is only one gain to be had from holding gold against euros and this will be the first one, after that the price of gold in euros will not change by more than +/- 5%, a "golden band" pehaps?
Better methinks than the golden bullsh!t coming out of the US for the last 30 years.
ii ) The gold price of US dollars will be revalued upwards very rapidly perhaps even the gold market in US dollars will be closed for some time. After this the US dollar will steady around it's real gold value as reserves are reassesed and the worth of the US dollar is truly evaluated for the first time since 1967. Depending on the reaction to these events by the US Treasury and US government, the US dollar price of gold will fluctuate in lock-step with it's euro fluctuations and US actions will be subject to the mercy of global speculators.

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:52 - ID#430260)
Tortfeasor you fool...
Paula Jones did not get $850 thousand dollars in settlement of that lawsuit--her lawyers got it all. They've been parading on CNN for weeks claiming there expected prize. She won't see a penny of it.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:54 - ID#412286)
One more
point on Lawyers I think that you will find that the freer and less protectionist a nation the more lawyers there are. We have the most lawyers but how many are there in Libya, N. Korea,Iraq,Russia,Nazi Germany, Japan ( rigid,regulated.protectionist ) etc. You get my drift. The greater number of lawyers is directly related to the extent of Democracy and the extent to which the STATE recognized individual rights ie you need more people to defend rights when they REALLY exist not just stated as in some People's Republics. The facts speak for themselves..Think about it and count your blessings.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 17:58 - ID#37463)
Paul Jones would have never had her day in court without the US legal system. I may be a fool, but I am not fool enough to think anyone would have paid attention to perceived trailer park trash without the system of justice which we have. I have a hunch that Paula will come out of this all right. She will have book deals, honorariums, royalties and the like. Don't feel too sorry for Paula or her lawyers who will have to right off a lot of their time in the interest of publicity or public service to this poor downtrodden woman in desperate need of a nose job.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:01 - ID#37463)
Apology for spelling
In responding to Gusty Oro, it is apparent again that a spellchecker would be a real boon on this site. My spelling teachers would shake their fingers in my face.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:06 - ID#43460)
ROR re Indian gold
If it helps I saw a special on CNN today regarding the Indian festival season. According to the report they are now having a huge religious meeting at a major temple in honor of the supreme god, Bramha, with much gold exchanging hands this week. The report actually dealt with another aspect of the festival, involving livestock trading, but the gold trading was mentioned in passing. IMHO

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:11 - ID#43460)
At the risk of being ridden out on a rail let me mention two words:
binding arbitration

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:11 - ID#252150)
Envy@I hope you were kidding about leaving. I always find your posts to be
wise & well written, without being dogmatic.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:12 - ID#290172)
Kiwi, yr. 17:50: I agree with addenda

1 ) "operations in the currencies of the Member States shall be expressed in a European monetary unit of account of a value of 0 788867088 grammes of fine gold." [the SDR-old BW was 0.888671 )
2 ) The EMEAPS will adopt the same standard

One shot at "it"? Positioned correctly, with the right armament, that might just be enough! {:- ) )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:19 - ID#252150)
Earl@Your 16:22 is timeless, sad & true.
ROR-You are very good at rationalizing the damage your profession has inflicted on mankind. But the truth is that you are just a parasite-probably a nice guy-but nevertheless, a parasite.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:26 - ID#317193)
SDRer...and Lawyers.......
SDRer...thanks for the least you can add...something the bailout people can not. Shall we just call this more debt default which equals more money destruction...YES.

Lawyers...not going to touch this one...I am one...tis good and bad in all walks of life. Cast stones if you must but don't live in a glass abode. Mozel...could pass a bar exam...and knows much many with a sheep skin do not.

Got paper...OK...get some physical just in case.

Asked earlier...CEF...any THOUGHTS on the new offering?


(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:27 - ID#252150)
Aurator@Bare breasts in Canada. I have noticed that without fail when the
women parade in defiance & bare their breasts, there is usually ( with luck ) 1 or 2 nubile young maidens, very few average women & the rest are comprised of butt ugly feminatzis, some with their dry breasts hanging down almost to their knees. Such a display probably results in many young men considering a gay lifestyle.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:35 - ID#93127)
Kiwi, agree with everything EXCEPT gold in trading band...

There is a strong [ardent!] group sponsoring 'let the market price gold'. This is, in point of fact, a matter of present Community law. One thinks they may have continued success, given the team's VERY highly placed members.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:39 - ID#412286)
You are obviously ignorant to the truth and have fallen for the lawyer baiting propaganda of the Corporate Elite ( who love corporate welfare and investment bailouts ) . The more Lawyers the more free a society. Examine the world country by country and I think you will see the correlation. Again this is the case as you need more Lawyers when the average person has more the ability to sue an insurance company for injuries sustained on a contingency base with little fear of beeing hit with legal fees unless there is an egregious abuse of the system. This is an important right that the insurance industry and their republican handmaidens would dearly love to attack. However, the people spoke in this election and they lost. As they should and this is why the right will soon be in minority status again, as in point of fact, you can talk about "personal responsibility" ( but they want their bailout ) and reform all you want but the average person is waking up to the deception and attempt at rights curtailment which is the agenda of the corporate right. The bankruptcy bill is another anti-consumer bill that was industry and republican sponsored which failed thanks to Clinton. As soon as you realize that the big corporations and Banks/financial institutions are the biggest welfare mothers of all you will begin to see through the fog and see clearly from whence the threat to individual liberty emanates ie ( they BIG govt off their back and to protect them with your tax dollars from bad investments ) . The American electorate has come through and thwarted the anti democratic designs of the corporate elite. Tort REFORM is dead as a result of the election..the democratic process indeed works to protect itself. The people can see through the BS. My faith in America is somewhat restored!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:43 - ID#194311)
SDRer.....what praytell
would be the right armament : )

A golden sword? Euro-US calls? Gold-US calls?
Counter-party risk has more than ever become the issue.

Was that 0.788 grams per euro?....35 SDR's per ounce?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:46 - ID#93127)
TYoung--the observation re: lawyers
was prompted by the number of extraordinarily bright young people of my own acquaintance matriculating at the ivy-iest of law schools...too much --way too much--of a good thing...IMHO

Re: CEF...on the list for this week. DD Will share anything of interest, OK?
{:- )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:47 - ID#37463)
Lawyers as parasites
Who will dispute that lawyers are parasides. However, nearly every other profession is as well with the exception of those poor fellows who are working at producing a comodity, those comodities which have fallen in price over the past several years. A barber is a parasite of the fact that we have hair. A doctor is a paraside for the fact that we have bodies which are subject to sickness. An auto worker because we have the desire to ride something besides a horse. An accountant because we want to have our beans on the right side of the ledger and on and on it goes. Everyone is a parasite of some need; otherwise a services society which we ahve would not exist. A lawyer fills a need just as any other service profession.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:48 - ID#194311)
SDR...I agree
this very strong group have good reasons and sound logic, "let the market price gold" is their mantra.

The question is then though how might one use a the market price of gold to stabilise ones currency?

Only answer must be that ones Treasury must undertake gold market actions to this end, no?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:56 - ID#194311) almost comical...but they are people..or?
reminds me of the "Seinfeld" episode where there was an anti-Dentite ( dentists ) outrage....

"they talk different, they look different, soon enough they'll have their own schools!"

anti-Lawyerites, the lot of ya!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 18:56 - ID#266105)
the buck stops here

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:01 - ID#430260)
Don't worry about the teachers--they're too busy getting fingerprinted by the FBI so they can renew their teaching certificates to be bothered with their alumni's net chatter. --AG

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:01 - ID#93127)

"what would be "the right armament : ) A golden sword?"
Actually, at this juncture, a golden hat-pin would serve ( we're pricking a bubble, yes? )

"Euro-US calls? Gold-US calls? Counter-party risk has more than ever become the issue." Yes, all paper is reaching 450F for precisely the reason you mentionone thinks "being there" might be the prudent position.

"Was that 0.788 grams per euro?....35 SDR's per ounce?" That is the logical presumption. Perhaps because of the "don't ask, don't tell" Accords, Eur-Lex always refers only to "unit of account". However, common sense ( and history ) would make 0,788 = 1 euro. Re 35 SDR = 1 ounce-one smells blood in the IMF corridors of powerthe Interim Committee may be making a move.it's another one to watch.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:04 - ID#153110)
@Legal Ethics
is another infamous oxymoron.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:05 - ID#227238)
James @ braless in Toronto:
The "double dip" malady that you referred to, has a name. It's commonly known as "rock in sock disease".

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:09 - ID#93127)
Kiwi--the world's equilibrium price level?
Just dipping toes into this cold stream If I diddle around long enough, will you solve this? {:- ) ) bbl

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:21 - ID#153110)
Your candor disarms. My statement on legal ethics applies to the rules governing attorneys as a class. Some individuals always refuse to stoop to the level of the bare minimum rules and preserve their interity at a cost.

ROR is a type of attorney at law. Corporate Federalism favors his type.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:22 - ID#194311)
SDRer...equilibriating can be quite liberating
as a state of optimum entropy is achieved.

My plate is kind of full of puzzles and problems for now, I may just leave this one for you {; )

I do know however that more than one nation will bid for gold before 1/1/99.

Order-Chaos Balance, the Zen of Natural Laws.

Time for a Rennaisance?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:24 - ID#252150)
ROR@Your logic would be laughable if it was'nt so silly.
You refer to the Corporate right & big gov't. Who the hell are these people comprised of-aliens? Without doubt...lawyers.

I've had to deal with lawyers over the years-divorce, etc. With very few exceptions they are motivated strictly by money. The idealism wears off in a few years at most. The rich people can always hire the best lawyers, regardless of their political persuasion. Therefore, justice for all is bullshit.

How do you rationalize the O.J. case? Lawyers are hired liars.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:28 - ID#119358)
@a public service annoucement...........
the latest in real audio, "radio" muzac over the internet, etc, is realplayer G2 beta. A free version of this software is downloadable from: This program will allow you to listen to "broadcast" muzac as you exist on the internet....and argue over the benefit of law. ;^ ) ~ and remember if you are needing help on .wav files, files which ultimately will enable musicians, as myself, to send "net friends" musical creations, I'll help you.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:29 - ID#252150)
Tort@I really don't think that you should insult hard working people like auto
workers by comparing them to your your profession. They are not in a service industry & there is a major difference. At the end of the day, they have actually produced something.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:29 - ID#43460)
More on India, expansion boded well for POG. deep background info
IMHO as goes India so goes the POG. And things are looking up there with a chance of more disposable income in the immediate future; a little more background re Indian economy, picked up from the times of India online edition:

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:31 - ID#317193)
Look at what could happen if gold and silver rise but it only recieves $4 a share and then has to purchase the metal without being locked in on price. Seems there could be dilution. Now if there were hedged with a solvent counterparty...oops...that is ANOTHER subject. ;- )


(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:38 - ID#317193)
I have talked to Stefan...several times...seems a real upright person. My question does not imply a negative towards CEF...I love it...but I see a downside if they are not "covered" as far as the warrants having any value.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:51 - ID#233379)
Yes,I agree,India is one to watch.They have the infrastructure ( left by the British ) a sense of Western Law,no Asian contagion-as of yet,and the second largest Computer Software industry ( in Bangalore ) .Of course all of the US captains of industry are scrambling to transfer technology and move factories to Red China,because China has 1.2 billion people.India has only a "paltry" 800-900 million people and can therefore be "dismissed" as an also ran.I only wonder if the US will have to pay for its huge blunder with soldiers blood,money,or a loss of world dominance-so much for the pointy headed pundits/glitterazzi/capts. of industry.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:52 - ID#28882)
@ GoldDancer - Gold Short position

You say there is a 14,000 ton short position; where did you get this number? The most aggressive I have heard is from Venerosso & Co. which give a 8000 ton short position.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:58 - ID#225147)
ROR&Tortfeasor: Law in the USA is totally corrupt, Lawyers make the laws for the benefit of Lawyers they enforce the laws for their own benefit, most judges are crooked Lawyers who knew a crooked politician thus their appointment.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 19:58 - ID#37463)
I thought that auto workers mostly watched machines do work. Who's to say which is more valuable, putting the fender on a car or producing a will that will save the client $220,000 in federal estate tax. Often, not because I am particularly brilliant, but because I know the law, I can save a client $220,000 just because I understand the nuances of an AB trust. I am not demeaning auto workers or any other laborers by saying that. I think anyone who does an honest day's work is entitled to an honest day's wage. I am not going to post any more on this subject AS I am weary of it and the anti-lawyerites. Lets talk gold, silver, anything but the law. I am not offended by the comments and would expect nothing less from your esteemed forum. I admire most of your greatly and your posts.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:02 - ID#368244)

Looks like gold may tank tonight.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:07 - ID#28882)
Notes on Butler Article

1. Butler contends there is a 1 bil oz short spec position and another 1 bil oz "lease-based" short position. These numbers seem very aggressive.

2. Butler contends there remain only 0.5 bil oz of "inventories" on surface. Perhaps in bullion form this may be true; but in fabricated form, this number is much higher. If the price were to rise significantly, you would see a lot of this melted down and come to market.

3. There is the implication that industrial usage accounts for the deficit; this is not entirely true -- India accounts for some 100 mil oz per year and this is mostly investment demand. More moderate observers would suggest that the deficit is only 100 mil oz per year. As the Indians are very price sensitive, a rise in the price would eliminate the deficit altogether.

4. Butler suggests that Buffet bought spot because he didn't want "paper silver" due to the risk of counter party default. This is not true. Buffet has lent out most of his silver and thus his positions are now, effectively, paper longs. He bought spot in London because he didn't want regulators getting in his way.

Apart form this nitpicking, though, I think that Mr. Butler is once again on the money -- thank-you Sir.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:07 - ID#20768)
ROR, Nocte Volens ........

ROR: Who will enforce the "World-Wide" Bill of Rights without bias?

Nocte Volens: What do you know -- factually -- about the Teamsters? Do you know their history? Their motives? Their membership? ...... Do you know anything other than what you see on TV or read in the press? Do you understand that all is not black & white ... that truth exists outside of your current ability to comprehend?


(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:10 - ID#317193)
...and a man is judged by his actions...not his his the appropriate time...and not by those who know him not. Go in peace with your good heart and be happy with yourself if your action are to do good and avoid evil. Nothing more is asked or required.

Off to have a beer w/out permission: ) Lighten up folk.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:10 - ID#31868)
ROR, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya and one more of each for your stamina...I do
find something to be in error here..."However, the people spoke in this election and they lost."...this taken from one of your most recent posts...this is patently false as the voter turnout was horrendous and certainly did not reflect the will of the people...

Got math?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:11 - ID#290456)
sam_a @ 14000 tonnes

Just popping in for a minute: 14000 tonnes is the amount stated in the Harmony annual report, as I recall.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:15 - ID#252150)
Lawyers@I lost all respect for the Cdn Law Society when they threatened to
disbar Doug Christie, a Victoria lawyer, because he defended an unpopular individual who was charged with hate crimes. His crime was that he was running an ISP & some people in CA. supposedly had a web page that was deemed racist & he refused to deny them access. The media vilified Christie with their knee jerk reaction & our dumb nazi politicians demanded in parliament that he be disbarred. He is a courageous individual, but has a wife & 2 young children to support & the law society succeeded in silencing him.

In Canada & the U.S. the establishment lives off the avails of the working people & IMO, deserve no more respect than pimps. The establishment is virtually comprised, aided & abetted by Lawyers.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:21 - ID#30126)
I know you're a good guy...

For ROR, James and others:

As to the parasite comparison, let us not forget symbiotic relationships. A parasite consumes and gives nothing in return to its host. As a side note, most parasites add insult to injury by disposing of their toxins in to their host. A symbiotic relationship is one where both benefit, such as a bird that eats the ticks and fleas off of a larger animal. The larger 'host' benefits by the removal of the lice and the bird gets to eat. Now, you can all extrapolate to the larger economy.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:26 - ID#412286)
wrong JAMES
if the rich hiring the best lawyers was all it was about, then why do they so readily settle with the little guy who is hurt. There are many people with NO MEANS who have prevailed fantastically in our system when the facts are with them one client in the firm was on welfare and became a millionaire as the Ins. company tried to defraud him after the accident. The original award was 100k after the insurance company fraud ( discovered by a lawyer for the client..who could barely read..2000000 in punitives were awarded in a new trial. Tell me how the law doesnt protect the little guy. The rich people who hate lawyers have an unending campaign to vilify the profession which is the very underpinning of freedom and democracy because REALLY they detest BOTH for anyone BUT THEMSELVES. Remember under our jury system peers make the decision not INSURANCE company execs or fatcat corporate execs. They HATE this power of the average person hence TORT reform and anti-lawyer baiting. Your not as intelligent as I thought if you cant see what is happening.

I remember the saying "a true republian cant enjoy his food unless he knows someone else is going hungry". I think that says alot about what is going on. Nevertheless, the days of the Reagan/Thatcher revulsion are numbered.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:27 - ID#210282)
Latest on Leonid meteor shower - electrical impulse damage most likely
All: Most of the shower will be micrometeorites, not big ones. But there is major concern of a major 'hit' with satellite knockout given in this note at odds of 1/100. Given that there are 600+ satellites, I would conclude that there is a 50/50 chance that 6 satellites get knocked out or are temporarily disabled from the electromagnetic pulse. That is why many satellites will be temporarily off the air, with solar panels folded, and the most 'hardened' part facing the likely impact direction.

Did you all know that a $600 million satellite bit the dust during the recent Perseid shower? I think that was much less impressive than this one, which is due to the earth crossing the path of a comet trail. I don't like this much at all -- because comets often have rather large pieces in them. Hope we will not have a close encounter of the ? kind with a large piece of XX- Tuttle, or whatever degenerated into the Leonid shower. Apparently some asteroids are easy to miss until they are very close. No -- I don't think you have to 'duck and cover' this time -- I'm talking about 33, 66 etc years from now -- on the next orbital cycle.

LGB -- still think the Leonid shower is harmless?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:34 - ID#286230)
Roal Oak

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:35 - ID#252150)
Tort, ,TYoung &ROR@I feel that I know you through your posts & don't doubt
that you are honorable men. Human nature was never fair or pleasant in this life. Maybe the next one. As a species we are still predatory. We all have to somehow manage. I sometimes tilt at windmills.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:39 - ID#30126)
I wasn't aware that there's an EMP component to meteor showers. I thought the best analogy was a rail gun as to the effects of the particles. Just for info, a .30-06 180 grain slug moves at ~2700 feet per second. Something moving at two miles per second is about 10,500 fps, and that's usually slow for space things.....

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:39 - ID#317193)
...and a smile is on my face....


(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:43 - ID#228128)
Here is a guy that I propose to tell that he isn't injured. He's the guy in my town who has 5 injury lawsuits going simultaneously. You probably know well that many times insurance companies settle, and by the way leave a black mark on some poor slobs driving record, rather than hire PIs and lawyers to fight a case. There are too many lawyers and too much litigation. It becomes a drag on a society's productivity when litigation becomes a cottage industry for deadbeats who want to scam what they can, when a profession creates a language only they understand 'legalise' and prevent laypersons and paralegals from handling simple tasks, when the tax code is so complex that professionals make a living studying the 10k pages of IRS law, when people can't coach a little league baseball team without fear of being sued, etc. Lawyers play an important and useful role in a free society, of that I have no doubt. But the pendulum has swung too far in my opinion and its become counterproductive.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:44 - ID#252150)
ROR@Luckily for the Lawyers a lot of the juries are comprised of semi-literates
who are impressed by the histrionics of the likes of Johnny Cochrane.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:45 - ID#35757)
I beg to differ with you. The American people are on record as caring about nothing but their pocketbooks ( two thirds of them anyway ) . I lost my virginity on this matter thirty five years ago when full of idealism, the constitution and the bill of rights I got involved in politics. When I expressed my views to the senior party hacks I was politely told to forget all that stuff, the people vote their pocketbooks. I hated the guy for saying that, but it's not right to kill the messenger.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:46 - ID#31868)
panda, Namaste' gulp of CORRALEJO and a puff to ya, AIDS travels slowly but when it hits
the effects are devastating...from within the instant seems slow, but at the moment of arrival...bang...zoom...gone goodbye...outta thinks the term being..."everything is relative."

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:53 - ID#31868)
morbius, Namaste' gulp of CORRALEO and a puff to ya...Hmmmmmmm...this is such
a wide and enormous topic, far ranging and a very large degree I accept what you are saying philosophically ( no spell check on the machine i am currently abusing ) in that due to the tiny percentage of voter turnout based on registered can be said that people are fat and happy and therefore rationalized their not showing up at the polls to exercise their Constitutional right to vote...

Within that context I agree with is a shame...and the price to pay shall be dear in every sense of the word and thought contained therein...yup...uh huh...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:57 - ID#368244)
ROR , 40% of 3 mill is 1.2 mil., this should be about your part of this settlement plus any money loaned at what 18 % because this poor person has to live in the time being. But being a good socialist I am sure you split your commisson among the rest of the poor souls that you as the great champion must protect. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING, IF NOT FOR THE MONEY, this person would be s--t out of luck and you know it. If nothing else try to be honest with your self, impossible though it might be.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 20:58 - ID#30126)
I think you mean that, when you finally collapse enough infrastructure, the exterior implodes....................:- )

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:00 - ID#31868)
panda, Namaste' gulp of this wonderful CORRALEJO and a puff to ya...Hmmmmmmm... a word...yes...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:01 - ID#412286)
You are wrong as insurance companies do not always settle. Sometimes they fight and win and get attorneys fees. You are influenced by the current propaganda that all injuries or supposed injuries are scams. This is a clever scheme by insurance companies to have you feel their pain. In fact very few people would bring a frivolous law suit unless they were ill advised or idiots. In reality the anti lawyer bias is a propaganda campaign to get jurors and society to look with a jaundiced eye even towards legitimate injuries and complaints. The ease of access to the legal system by the "undeserving" is something that really wrankles the fatcats. With the last election inplace and Newt gone they will have to be wrankled alot longer. Whe I heard of the downbeat mood at the Chamber of Commerce election night party I regained faith that the American people WILL protect their freedoms. This is good news to all. As to turnout, if it had been 60% instead of 39%, the progressive forces would have swept both houses.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:03 - ID#37463)
Gold on the move
Gold is moving; unfortunately it is in retreat--Down $1.10/oz. so far.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:03 - ID#317193)
some juries are impressed with justice...if the judge allows it.

Can we get gold in here, somewhere? Even the JY...


(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:05 - ID#210282)
Brazil to explode by Carnival -- R. Dornbusch
Donald,SDRer: Thanks for info on Brazil -- 'too big to fail'? Probably too big to prop up also.

All: R. Dornbush is an insider-type academic economist who should know. Anyone know when Carnival time is? Could be a real blow-out this year.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:08 - ID#72206)
I read this quote the other day---

If voting could change anything, it would be against the law...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:10 - ID#31868) defense of ROR, Namaste' gulp of CORRALEO and a puff to all...
Obviousl ROR knows he entered the Hornet's nest given the specific topic of conversation today...Hmmmmmmmmmm...I think it is fantastic that the conversation can be had...out in the speech...who woulda thunk it...and I daresay that even though ROR may be standing like a Flamingo in a pond full of Golden Herons...that after all is said and done at the Kitco Bar and Grill...all should have a pleasant evening and be given a pillow and a blanket if they are too tired and or toasted to drive home...therein lies a point, subtle in its measure but a point nontheless...

None of us would deny an individual a pillow and a blanket...I certainly would not...I am sure each of us would wish to provide the barest of essentials and creature comforts...this then is a sticking point with ROR as I see it through his conversation...

A noble, honest desire and noteworthy intent...clearly I believe ROR is misguided as to HOW to achieve this end...I guess it all boils down to a spiritual kinda thing...yup...I am not my brother's keeper...I guess even God had to deal with family...human and all if you catch my drift...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:12 - ID#37463)
Meteors on the way & may knock out satelites
A bit of a meteor scare going on in Mongolia

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:12 - ID#261295)
@ Panda...44 miles per second ..

That's the speed of the Leonid metorites .. that's ~100 times the speed of the 30-06 !!

Go Golf

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:16 - ID#317193)
Go Golf...I like too...
$285 or $305...I'll join the party...again. Off to family matters.

As Spock long and prosper...with a smile. Yes?


(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:19 - ID#31868)
ROR, Namaste' Gulp of CARRALEO and a puff to ya...your comment which follows...
"As to turnout, if it had been 60% instead of 39%, the progressive forces would have swept both houses." You have written a check with your mouth that your wallet can't keep...which my friend is exactly why socialism fails every cannot substantiate your comment in any manner, shape or form...Point A...there is no way to prove if voter turnout had been higher that the outcome would have been the same...Point B...who says that progressive means that people back your opinions as to how the country should be run...your definition of progress is your own and not necessarily that of the electorate...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:22 - ID#31868)
arby, Namaste' gulp of CORRALEO and a puff to ya...heh...heh...heh...I literally
laughed so hard I fell over backwards in this darn chair...'tis not my chair and I am sure the tequila manufacturer should be sued for the lump on the back of my head... ( hard wood floor ) ...ouch...yikes...but...well worth the laugh...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:32 - ID#31870)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...things are better huh...NOT!!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:35 - ID#31870)
and while we all bitch and moan...light a candle for these folks...and for the children
who don't know what a hurricane is...and are bewildered...many of whom will never see their Mothers and Fathers again...the children...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:38 - ID#218423)
Golden Rules
Apologies in advance for preaching to those who have seen this before. I am posting it again in hopes of perhaps it helping one person as much as it has helped me.....

Rules For Being Human
( From a column by Sir John Templeton )

You will receive a body. You may like it or hate it, but it will be yours for as long as you live. How you take care of it or fail to take care of it can make an enormous difference in the quality of your life.

You will learn lessons. You are enrolled in a full-time school called Life. Each day, you will be presented with opportunities to learn what you need to know. The lessons presented are often completely different from those you think you need.

There are no mistakes - only lessons. Growth is a process of trial and error and experimentation. You can learn as much from failure as you can from success.

A lesson is repeated until it is learned. A lesson will be presented to you in various forms until you have learned it. When you have learned it ( as evidenced by a change in your attitude and behavior ) , then you can go on to the next lesson.

Learning lessons does not end. There is no stage of life that does not contain some lessons. As long as you live, there will be something more to learn.

"There" is no better than "here". When your "there" has become a "here" you will obtain another "there" that will again look better than your "here". Don't be fooled by believing that the unattainable is better than what you have.

Others are only mirrors of you. You cannot love or hate something about another person unless it reflects something you love or hate about yourself. When tempted to criticize others, ask yourself why you feel so strongly.

What you make of your life is up to you. You have all the tools and resources you need. Remember through desire, goal-setting and unflagging effort you can have anything you want. Persistence is the key to success.The answers lie within you. The solutions to all of life's problems lie within your grasp. All you need to do is ask, look, listen and trust.

You will forget all this. Unless you consistently stay focused on the goals you have set for yourself, everything you've just read won't mean a thing.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:50 - ID#343449)


never apologize for standing on the shoulders of giants...
you spread their seeds........and thus grow amongst them...

carry on....

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 15 1998 21:54 - ID#287367)
@ EB
How's the tiddly-wink museum? Precious is now at $295/oz. I say $285/oz before $305/oz. What say ye, gamblin' man?

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:04 - ID#294232)
Crystal Ball ????????????
Give us your prediction Mr. Crystal Ball both short and long term! Why is it i get the feeling you are one of the Clintonite Sheep!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:06 - ID#43460)
Since the jewelry discussion group is essentially dead
Themissinglink, if youre reading tonight, I need some advice as to finishing my first hammered silver cup. Its meant to have noticable waviness in emulation of early medieval work but Im having difficulty erasing the marks from the cratex prepolishing. Should I use tripoli before the rouge?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:08 - ID#14785)
O.k. O.k.
What is the point? Bubba and Sad'n'sane butting heads has become a laughable joke. Come to think of it, WJC is more of a joke than the other guy. If the guy has or is developing biologic weapons, then stop him. It's that simple. What's the wait about? Is the CnC waiting for a Chinese alliance with Iraq? Then what are we going to do?

Either this situation is real or it is a fraud. Either way, to use it for political play is disgusting. Then again, what else is new....

As an unrelated aside... I happen to be by a Schwab office the other day and noticed that someone had been looking up a lot of different gold stocks on the real time terminal in the office. I guess people don't realize that there is a 'history' button on them there machines......:- ) )

It's always fun to see someone elses poker hand...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:24 - ID#290202)
KIWI: re your17:50....(the big profit in Euro POG will be the first one)
If this is so...there must be hundreds, perhaps thousands of Europeans

"in the Know". So why is Von Finck the only European honcho that is

( as far as we know ) buying gold stocks hand over fist? Surely, if all those

"in the loop" would be buying mining shares, the share prices would not

continue to be at their decimated levels. Yes, we've had SOME improvement,

but not enough to make me think that "they" & their cousins are all buying.

Humans are greedy. Those "in the loop" could simply not have this much

cohesiveness to ( all ) forego buying for the good of "the plan". Could they?


(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:27 - ID#218423)
A pot of gold?
The temptation to go short is overwhelming!!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:28 - ID#386129)
KITKAT....golden rule
first saw this back in '68 after my tour in nam, on the back of a toilet door..never saw it again till I got on the web...makes more sense than ever now..particularly the last line..

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:34 - ID#412172)
Leonid and Al
Looks like the Leonid shower and FOMC meeting on Tuesday are in close proximty. Whether Al ducks or not, communications could be disrupted, with or without meteor hits, due to turning satellite positions or turning them off? Could put traders in a real dialemma if they are making a play for or against a cut and then can't get out if it goes against them due to comm failures. Not being paranoid, like if we had a surprise cut right after futures closed, or anything ludicrous like that ( 10/15/98-grin ) !
With that I'm off to dream of golden meteorites in the skies, hoping that early to bed early to rise stuff.........really works for a change.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:34 - ID#339274)
FWIW cyclical longterm buy signal given for wheat and sugar.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:36 - ID#339274)
Gold and stocks
FWIW Negative /side ways this week

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:39 - ID#287367)
I say Fort Knox is probably damn near empty
The US Mint has been churning out gold bullion "American Eagle" coins like there's no tomorrow. Where is the gold coming from? This whole scene reminds me of pre-1968 or so when the London gold pool was trying to hold down the price of gold. Meanwhile the money supply is exploding. ( Excuse me, it's not really MONEY, it's treasury paper, FRN paper, bookkeeping entries, and various and sundry electrons flying around the banking system. Some of it is backed by nothing more than the full faith and credit of the USG, and some of it is backed by nothing more than the flatulence of politicians, bankers, bond dealers, stockbrokers, and other movers and shakers. ) The banks have reserves of what, 1.7%? This cannot go on indefinitely. Although near term I cannot see gold's price rising significantly due to the manipulation of CBs, the short hedging of gold-miners, and the short-selling by speculators encouraged by the gold-carry trade...the day of reckoning will come within the next 5-10 years at the very latest. I cannot predict the future US dollar price of gold, but do not believe $3000/oz or even $30,000/oz is impossible. In 1988, who would have predicted 5000+ rubles to the US dollar in 1998? I just keep trading FRN paper for physical, and I do not EVER intend to sell my gold for paper dollars. Might trade it for something useful should the need arise. Call me irresponsible. Call me a fool. I don't care. The price of "paper gold" is a sham. to quote the F* man, IDCIBM.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:50 - ID#290172)
Weekend: 'Adjustment' Period
How the Game is Played:
Thursday, November 12-the DEM-POG closed at 499.689 and POG USD at 296.200 [based on 1536 prices]
Friday, November 13-the DEM-POG closed at 500.791 and POG USD at 296.800 [based on 606 prices]
Saturday, November 14-the DEM-POG closed at 498.928 and POG USD at 296.100 [BASED ON ONE ( 1 ) PRICE]
1.863 move DOWN on "one price" eradicates a 1.102 move up based on 606 prices

Sunday, November 15-the DEM-POG closed at 497.662 and POG USD at 295.875 [based on 12 prices-low bid 295.250/hi 296.00]

All in all, they had a quite successful weekend. Friday Dem Gold at 500.791, 'quiet' weekend adjustment moves it back to 497 & 295 USD. Fix tomorrow at 294? What a world

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:53 - ID#218423)
Words to live by! P.E. Trudeau used to quote this extensively. I hope it gives him comfort while enduring the recent death of his son. What is the meaning of the title?

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:53 - ID#287367)
@ The Hatt
Hi, Mr. Hatt !! I was not even aware you had sent me a message when I wrote my last raving maniacal magnum opus. Do you still think I'm one of the Clintonite sheople? Just because I like to tweak my buddy EB, doesn't mean I'm a non-believer. If my Nov AOL 140 puts scream into the money this week, hoo-boy! I'm looking to buy SGOLY by the bushel if I can get it for $2.75/share.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:56 - ID#286230)
He Haw
Ted Turner May Run for President

Sunday, November 15, 1998; 3:05 p.m. EST

NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Media mogul Ted Turner says he is ``very serious''
about making a bid for the White House, even though he contends his
wife, former actress Jane Fo.da doesn't approve, according to a magazine

In its Nov. 23 issue, out Monday, The New Yorker says Turner let slip
the idea after a recent black-tie Southern California dinner where he
received the World Citizenship Award from a group dedicated to
eliminating nuclear weapons.

``I am very serious about running for president, but Jane doesn't want me
to do it,'' the flamboyant founder of CNN reportedly told several
members of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation.

According to the magazine, Fonda left the door open to a Turner
campaign, saying, ``wherever Ted goes, I go.''

The article called Turner's prize acceptance speech a ``clearly ad-libbed...
synthesis of Southern populism, standup-comedy shtick, and talk-radio
outrage,'' in which he claimed the United States was keeping nuclear
weapons as protection from ``the starving masses of the Third World
when they come to our door.''

Turner said they would be coming across the border from Mexico and
from Saudi Arabia, ``when they run out of oil,'' according to the article.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:58 - ID#210282)
Gold trends, Iraq
My prediction is gold down next week -- for two reasons:

1 ) WJC defused the Iraq crisis - yet again.

2 ) The US dollar is rising.

WJC stopped the air raid within an hour of reaching Iraq, and now says he will not attack -- as long as Saddam allows inspections without conditions. They act like they are following a script that is in a time loop. At least until there is an accident/incident of some kind related to this or future military alerts. All Saddam need to do is keep pulling our strings and wait for us to screw up.

All: Any idea on how Saddam knew we were within 1 hour of attacking Iraq? Sounds like there is a security leak somewhere.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 22:59 - ID#45173)
Words for goldbugs to live by
Estragon: I can't go on like this.
Vladimir: That's what you think.
-Samuel Beckett, Waiting For Godot

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:01 - ID#287367)
@ Selby
I'd vote for Hulk Hogan first!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:01 - ID#25490)
per ardua ad astra.

Desiderata: pl of Desideratum; something lacked and wanted. From desiderare to desire earnestly. de + sidus ( star )

To wish upon star ( ? ) Makes no difference who you are..
Know anything about this 'un crusty?


(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:06 - ID#25490)
Spy vs Spy
Dunno if Saddam has spies in yanqui uniforms ( it is possible ) more likely his electronic surveillance is better'n the US/UN axis gave him credit for. I've been thinking, that this is more brilliant strategy. Saddam has just made the US armed forces telegraph battle plans, before having to abort them. Must have been lights blinking all around the gulf Wonder how many contingent plans your war boys have left.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:09 - ID#45173)
Wall Street Casino prediction for 11/16 - 11/19
Greenspan disappoints the street by not dropping rates and the gamblers, who have doubled down for the past few weeks, run for cover.

Just a guess and I got money on it.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:12 - ID#198170)
Freeport Troubles
For any that might be interested there is a fairly extensive piece on Freeport at the MSNBC new site. At some point the impact of 3rd world instabilities on future production may play a role in the gold market. Being a mining outfit in the third world is not easy or a stable play. America Mineral Fields and many others are finding that out in Kabila's Congo. Anyhow, the link is below:

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:13 - ID#286230)
Cracy Times

Hillary may be eyeing Moynihan's

November 11, 1998


Buzzzzzzzzz ...

Dateline: Hillaryville--Rumors are abounding that first lady Hillary Rodham
Clinton is a potential candidate to run for retiring U.S. Sen. Daniel Patrick
Moynihan's spot in the year 2000.

* When earlier rumors surfaced that Mrs. Clinton planned to return to Illinois
to run for the U.S. Senate, she personally told Sneed: ``That's ridiculous! No

* Now that a GOPer, Peter Fitzgerald, has snagged U.S. Sen. Carol
Moseley-Braun's spot, wags will be whispering again. Hillary's popularity is
still rising in the polls.

* But ... Marsha Berry, Clinton's press secretary, is nixing the rumor:
``When Mrs. Clinton has been asked about any possibility of running for public
office, she has expressed no interest in running for public office,'' Berry tells

Nocte Volens
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:15 - ID#390135)
Did I hit a nerve? I have no personal experience with the teamsters, just a co-worker who was a teamster a few years ago. When at a convention, he asked specifics about how the pension plan was being invested. He was taken aside later and told that if he knew what was good for him he would shut his f*cking mounth and never bring it up again. nuff said.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:17 - ID#373403)
Going to a final polish from cratex is too much. Go to a finer cratex/emory or tripoly before rouge. Polishing is the incremental reduction in depth of scratches. If you magnified a highly polished piece of metal you would see scratches. You must also be careful to complete each phase completely.

Sometimes there are deeper scratches than that grit should allow for but is with the "grain" of your sanding so you cannot see it. Therfore you should change the direction of your sanding so that you can inspect for completeness of that particular grit.

If you polish and tripoly on a machine you should not polish along the horizon of the piece but rather in a cross hatch manner. This way you will not cut grooves by going in a singular path. Always keep the piece moving while the buff is on it. Motion produces a seamless polish. Don't use the same buffs for tripoly as you do for rouge or you will ruin your rouge buffs.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:18 - ID#290172)
EJ--"Waiting for Godot"

was ranked the most significant English-language play of the 20th century for a reason
and we're it {:- ) )
Goodnight all.

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:18 - ID#287367)
A curious occurrence at the bank today
My bank has a branch in the supermarket that is open on Sundays. I went to withdraw $200 today. They asked how I wanted it, and i said all 20s. So they gave me all OLD notes. I mentioned how phoney the new twenties looked, and the bank manager told me the Feds were recalling the new Monopoly Money 20 dollar FRNs because they say "Series 1996" in error rather than 1998. So they might turn out to be valuable "error" notes after all. Who the hell knows?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:18 - ID#317211)
@ the Leonids. If a fella in California were to get up real early this tuesday,
might he catch any of the show? Supposed to be at 11:43am Pacific Standard Time, ( I think ) . But maybe their a bit wrong. What part of the sky should he look to? I guess if it's happening, should be obvious.

Guess he'll give it a try anyway. But it always seems to get overcast when such celestial events occur. {: ( (

What's the weather forecast for Ulan Bator?

Steve in TO
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:19 - ID#287337)
JTF - Brazil: Carnaval do Rio de Janeiro happens on . . .
Fat Tuesday which is Feb. 16, 1999.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:22 - ID#249244)
Having this stuff under local control is logical. It will
work. Probably I did not get your idea first time. But
then we are talking some kind of "Community Guard" system,
similar to the National Guard in structure, but on the
"very local" level...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:24 - ID#290215)
Back from Palm Beach gun and run show.
Many 50 cal. in hand. hhhhmmmmmmmm
Double gulp no puff.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:27 - ID#288231)

there is only one auspicious angle to the letter from iraq...
NOTHING else about matters......nothing.

it was the timing of their letter......HOW could they have known
the us had bombers en-route....??? could it have been our ally
or theirs? or possibly one playing both sides of the fence...
russia has the capabilities to have known the big boys were
inbound from afar....yar they knew....and thus iraq knew...
they knew what they had to do, and they know from
which way they can expect the does their ally....russia.....

yes, the timing grasshopper......this is the key to the door that
opens into the realm of truth....THEY KNEW.....russia told them.


(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:27 - ID#249244)
My friend, you previosly stated that our favorite hero of
discussion, Saddam, is not afraid of anything.I have reason
to believe it's not exactly true. He is very concerned about
his personal safety.I regard to "1 hour" story - that is a
good story.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:28 - ID#249244)
JTF, correction: "I regard"= In regard

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:29 - ID#334219)
Barrick spent less than $125/ounce in Capex and exploration for that cheap reserve at Pierena. Add in the $50 operating costs and subtract depletion and amortization..and you still get something near half Harmony's costs.

One question for much gold Harmony was producing 15 years ago ?

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:30 - ID#45173)
And if the Fed does in fact lower rates Tuesday, I shall be forced to conclude
Alan Greenspan tiene un pene muy pequeo.

Buena noche!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:31 - ID#31868)
Crystal Ball, Namaste' that last bottle is empty, crack...some Patron...ahhhh...for me
it is comfort enough to know that you are alive and WELL and same thoughts for the Lady...yup..uh is a privilege to share your air...Namaste'

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:32 - ID#249244)
John Disney
Brother John, thanks...from engineer to engineer.
By the way, my weight dropped from 232 lbs. to
224 lbs. - result of intensive running between
steam room and shooting range...According to
the American cultural values - that is very good!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:33 - ID#249244)
Where do you want me to go in peace? Back to the
shooting range?...I just returned from there...

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:35 - ID#218423)
@aurator, EJ, nuggets & all
Thanks to all. I have gained again tonight. Off to wish upon a star, or a bunch of them. Been sitting on this bench waiting since last Nov. The company is still good! G'night all.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:36 - ID#288231)

saddam and russia....and what is going on...
reads like a script for the current situation....

read on.....again...and.again...and.again....

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:39 - ID#210282)
Golden Rules, Hyperspace comments from Enterprise site
kitcat: Kudos for the best non-gold related post of the week. I made several copies of same.

All: I did get a chance to go with spouse to the lake -- and our little boat. A little cool for boating so we just admired the view.

Don't forget the value of R & R.

By the way -- emergency at work again!

But the R & R and searching the Richard Hoagland's Enterprise site for papers makes today worth it, even if I won't get any sleep tonight.

If you didn't know Richard Hoagland's enterprise began somewhere near 1986. He was able to make a convincing argument for a message from a possible extraterrestrial source on Mars -- the relationship between possible artifacts in Cydonia. To understand this, you must think like an individual who wishes to communicate with another without knowing the language, or being able to see or interact with the individual in common space or time -- the essence of the CETI project.

For the first time, I was able to read what he said years ago, and I am beginning to understand why he is now the way he is. You should all go to his site, if you are interested in some interesting comments about the mysterious world around us. Getting more mysterious everyday.

I cannot vouch for the validy of R Hoagland's comments, but I am reading with great interest the articles he has posted -- many of which come from hihgly legitimate sources.

Currently I am investigating whether Whittaker really did describe Maxwell's original quaternion equations of electromagnetics in his 1909 ( approx ) articles, or the more conventional Maxwell's equations we know that Heaviside created -- because he thought Maxwell's quaternion formulation was to unweildy ( sp? ) . The claim by Tom Beardon is that Maxwell's quaternion formulation created the foundation of what TB/RH call 'Hyperdimensional Physics' -- now quite popular in current physics circles. If so, this would have been more than 100 years ago, and Whittaker's articles 80 years ago. It seems that Whittaker's 1909 papers could be very important even now in undersanding the 'Zero point' energy. I will let you know if I can convince myself that T Beardon is correct. His work is frustratingly hard to understand because there are big holes in his logic from start to conclusion. I think he knows some of the conclusion, and is trying hard to 'reverse engineer' the logic that created it. But -- E. T. Whittaker was a world-class theoretical physicist -- almost at a par with Einstein. He I can follow.

G'Nite all!

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:39 - ID#237299)
Gagnrad: Nice cup
I hope you don't mind my 2 cents worth. ( Ditto every thing Steve said. )

On the silver, since it scars easily as you've noticed, I would advise against craytex as a matter of policy. The company simply doesn't control the abraisive content well enough. ( they always seem to have an uneaven mix of coarser grit mixed into the "stated" grit of the wheels. In the future, or now if you have some, use pumice wheels. ( on silver ) They produce a much finer flour as they remove metal. The downside is, you can easily go through mucho pumice wheels- but the texture is better. Using either pumice or craxtex you are risking loosing some of the hammered texture, you want to preserve. 3-M brand has a wonderful selection of washable abrasive cloths- and your cup would lend itself nicely to using these. ( essentially hand work ) Their grit composition is so carefully controlled that in a pinch I have polished gemstones with them to a near water polish. They make them from 30 micron down to 1 micron in grit sizes.

Steve in TO
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:44 - ID#287337)
Tantalus - Yup, 11:43 PST is about when the Leonid shower is . . .
due to start. This is all approximate, of course. Unfortunately, the eastern Pacific is just about the worst area to get a view of the shower. You'll have to hope there's still some activity going on when dusk arrives. In San Francisco sunset happens at about 16:55, so maybe by 17:30 it'll be dark enough to see some meteors. The most intense activity will probably be over, though.

- Steve

Steve in TO
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:44 - ID#287337)
Tantalus - Yup, 11:43 PST is about when the Leonid shower is . . .
due to start. This is all approximate, of course. Unfortunately, the eastern Pacific is just about the worst area to get a view of the shower. You'll have to hope there's still some activity going on when dusk arrives. In San Francisco sunset happens at about 16:55, so maybe by 17:30 it'll be dark enough to see some meteors. The most intense activity will probably be over, though.

- Steve

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:47 - ID#287367)
@ Tolerant 1
A gulp and a puff to ya! If the bottle is empty, maybe you, me, the lady, and Mike Sheller should meet at the Black Forest Brewery in Farmingdale ( on the island that is long ) two blocks east of Route 110 and one block north of Adventureland to share some fresh brews.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:53 - ID#317211)
@Selby - US Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan retiring.
The ONE democrat I respect for his opinions & oratory gone?
I'm now forced to dislike all of them.

Hillary may take his seat. Noone can take his place.

(Sun Nov 15 1998 23:55 - ID#43460)
Obsidian and TheMissingLink
Thanks guys. BTW, do ether of you know what is "rottenstone"? Will check back tomorrow as Ive got to hit the sack early. Thanks again. ( 8-^] )