Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:00 - ID#432223)
I too am a Yank. I'm proud of it and refer to myself as one - always have. If you're an Australian, your parents sure were glad to see us Yanks. I'm amazed that the younger generation sure has a short memory. Most Americans I know prefer being called yanks. We have a baseball team here in the US known as the New York Yankees. Great American team. Great Name. Mates downunder.... I'm not so sure about that name. Sounds like something rouges do in prison, but then again wasn't Australia a prison colony with a bunch of inmates down under? Hmmm.... Go Yanks - Go Gold!!!!!!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:00 - ID#43349)
Money supply taking on life of it's own
A gauge of the U.S. money supply, M2, rose by $10.8 billion
in the week ended Nov. 9, Federal Reserve figures showed, as the
pace of money growth ran above the Fed's maximum target of 5

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:02 - ID#243100)
That's cool
Sounds just like gold and silver---DEAD

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:07 - ID#43349)
Blue sky in the center of the eye

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:11 - ID#293390)
Did anyone catch Nightline
last night. They are calling Japan banks Zombies. They are for all intents and purposes dead and won't admit it.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:12 - ID#243100)
Janis says 'catch it while you can'
Not a bad thought

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:20 - ID#93135)
Who cares re: yr 21:24-Yes, they certainly do;

crme de la crme computers with crme de la crme algorithms by crme de la crme rocket scientists. And---most of the time--- crme de la crme results.
Still, that isn't what I was talking about---trying to talk about {:- ) ) it is not what the data shows
perhaps--most probably--I've just explained it all very badly. Oh well.

May we have a ruling on Aurator's golden pig? Into what asset class?
A Class Asset?
Ready to order-Hog's Breath, Carmel CA

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:21 - ID#386245)
Bill Buckler, as usual, is spot on.
"In $US terms, Gold is a very simple proposition indeed. As long as it remains below $US 300, there is no chance of a bull market. Because it has remained below $US 300 for so long, any close, especially a weekly close, above $US 300 would be highly significant.

It's an open and shut case. Don't get bullish on Gold below $US 300. And, of course, it must be repeated, if Gold gets above $US 300, it has to stay there.
It has been the three U.S. rate cuts, and the direct injection of Treasury funds into the Brazil bail-out package, that have turned things around. The trepidation of six weeks ago on U.S. stock markets has vanished completely. The Dow closed on Nov. 20 at 9159, less than 2% from its July all time high of 9337. As long as this exuberance lasts, there is little chance of Gold staging a rally.

But when the next financial downturn comes, and it will, there will be nowhere left to turn. With the U.S. itself now having already taken on the burden of saving the system, there is nowhere else to go. The simple fact of the matter is that if the U.S. cannot save it, no-one can."

 1998 - The Privateer
( quoted with permission )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:24 - ID#257304)
ethnocentricity ain't a small town in The Bible Belt, eh
picky picky
Janis said "Get it while you can."
Gold has never ceased to be currency, just not in merka. Go to chinatown with a sovereign or an eagle, Go to Little India, or where the Cambodians or Lebanese gather and show some gold, you will be asked what you want to buy.....

Sieze the Fish!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:30 - ID#93135)
Gollum--"Fed's maximum target of 5%"
When I scanned that sentence, I thought it read 85%! Time to say
"Goodnight Gracie". {:- ) ) )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:31 - ID#386245)
Don't take offense at our mate, Haggis. He gets a burr under his kilt now and then and has to scratch it. As a Scottish Aussie, he probably has a few gold coins hanging under that kilt as well. Wouldn't want to let them out of his sight you noooooooooo.

Och aye the nooooooooooooooo.

Did you know that America was ALSO used as a prison colony by the Poms?? So there is more than a little convict blood floating around in you lot as well. In Texas in 1996 there were 765 people killed by handguns ( non-suicide ) . In Australia for the same time period there were 14. Now who/m has the most convict blood, mate???

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:36 - ID#257304)
A deeengo got ma baybeee
but the merkans need the guns to protect 'em from dingos 'n snakes 'n fire ants 'n killer bees 'n cockroaches 'n things..

What we need at kitco is someone posting from one of dem snake churches of the South...then, we'd really smoke, eh?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:37 - ID#93135)
Aurator and Envy are going to have the Animal Rights
people shut us down! "Sieze the Fish!" ( Aurator--a ruling please: is "Sieze the Fish!" a "catch" or a "get"? This all so complex...I'm going have a little glass of brandy to clear my head...ciao.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:41 - ID#386245)
creme de la SDRer
Have a sip of that stuff for me. Your posts, as usual, are the creme de la creme ( excuse me for not going into 'characters' to put the fancy doodads over the e's ) .

Aurator's golden pig is a bribe. Well, a gift, then. No, a bribe. Should give him another 3 months of peace and quiet at Kitco. Pigs can fly!!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:43 - ID#257304)
Fish the Seas..
It's a catch-and-release thang. The more ya tickle 'em, the oftener they come back for more.

As to fungible pigs. Is not one of the requirements of fungible~ness that it perishes? Leetle fat peegs don't perish!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:47 - ID#343259)
Test Do not download
Test do not download

(Sun Nov 22 1998 00:56 - ID#35757)
Must be a some storm to have such a big eye.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:01 - ID#386245)
Yair, mate. I noticed mozel's little 'dig' at antipodeans over dingos and firearms. The only problem I've ever had with dingos is when the bustards try to steal my lunch when camping out. They turn tail pretty quick when stood up to ( sort of like politicians, mate ) . I've also had bears steal my lunch in Yellowstone. I wasn't gonna argue with them!!

Now, as to the scarcity of firearms in Oz. Don't you believe it!! Sure, we've handed back 600,000 or so automatic firearms to our benevolent gubbmint after the Port Arthur massacre. I was talking to a fellow in a small town down the road a piece--pun intended ( population 2000 ) the other day. He is the only one in the town licensed to give the firearm safety test. I asked him "How many firearms are there in xyz?" He said "Oh, about 2300!!" You don't wanna go stealing chooks on a property around here!!

John Disney
(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:24 - ID#24135)
compliments ...
for Weisser ..
I'll say this for you .. your postings are brief..

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:24 - ID#257304)
BTW 911 ain't the emergency number hereabouts.........
Yup. no shortage of arms here neither, just don't need em to shoot human beans, just possum, wabbits and pigs.

NZ has 3rd highest gun:capita ratio in the world. Also highest baths:capita. That means we're clean as whistles when we shoot the pigs.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:25 - ID#344326)
@ arrival of weiser...
Whenever gold does begin to break out, I always thought some sign would appear on Kitco. But then again, I'm just a desperate goldbug. Weiser, Is your first name Don by any chance?

John Disney
(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:27 - ID#24135)
Save the Dingo ..
to all ..
Dingos are not the problem .. Drongos
are the problem ..

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:29 - ID#386245)
In Oz, a Tipper is a rubbish truck.
I see that the next Prezzie campaign has already started.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:34 - ID#386245)
John Disney
For the sake of our N. Amerkan cousins, I shall interpret for you:

Drongo: The name of a Victorian racehorse from the early 20's who always finished at or near the tail of the field. No-hopers now take the title.

Also applies to most antipodean Kitco posters.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:40 - ID#153110)
Now, hold on, gunners. Not too long back we wuz told ( wif pride ) that no firearms was allowed on NZland, even firearms for protecting BigWigs.

I can believe Aussies is not abiding by the gunlaws.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:41 - ID#386245)
Forget about Al !!!!
You should all vote for Tipper!!! My goodness, what a wonderful woman.

Mrs. Gore: "Thank you, Mr. President. In Honduras we visited a neighborhood devastated by the storm. We joined the effort to clean up the school that will become a medical facility... That night I slept in a tent outside a shelter with homeless families..."
Is it possible to send Al and Tipper to Honduras for six months to help shovel mud?? Al could use the exercise. In Kuala Lumpur he looked like a walking McDonalds ad.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:41 - ID#93135)
Nick@C--Had a lil glass for you,
in appreciation of the many times you've made me laugh BEFORE morning coffee!

Happy to see you made it through the Apple Caper without becoming sauce ( ed ) . RE: the doodads over 'e's and 'c's with little goatees-it is
an attempt [doomed at the outset] to live up to Aurator's high standards. Re: merikans 765 hits v 14 Oz hitsYou folks need practice? {:- ) )
Goodnight all.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:44 - ID#284255)
Bug puts the bite on world recovery
It may be banal. It is definitely nerdish. But it could be a bigger threat to the global economy than the current financial crisis.

The Treasury has admitted that it will hit the economy, but has no idea how badly. Independent economists are less cautious: after the millennium, they warn, the world is likely to find itself in severe recession.

The culprit is not devaluing currencies, debt overhangs or ballooning trade deficits. It is errant pieces of computer code: the millennium bug.

After a whirlwind of speculation in the City, Treasury and the Bank of England officials have now turned their minds to the problem - with disturbing results. In effect, they admit that the economy will be adversely affected, but have no idea how badly - so they're ignoring the problem.

The Chancellor accepted in his Pre-Budget Report that the 'millennium bug problem poses a significant global economic and government challenge', and noted that 'some loss of output immediately following the date change seems likely'. But 'because of the wide margins of error, Year 2000 effects are excluded from the Report'.

The Bank, in its Quarterly Inflation Report this month, came to an identical conclusion. It noted a risk that the bug would hit output and boost inflation, but said: 'Given the significant uncertainties involved, the Monetary Policy Committee has decided not to incorporate "Millennium Bug" effects in its central projection.'
Bankers Say They Are Prepared for Year 2000

Helping Your Community Prepare for Y2K


Email Chatter --
We are currently working on a survey of B.C. municipalities and their
readiness. Preliminarly results do not look good. On a readiness scale
of 0-100 the average so far is 17, a high of 45 and a low of 6. 100
percent would mean, a y2k project manager, a y2k plan, a contingency
plan, a budget, a complete understanding of the problem, municipality
sponsored public meetings, working with other organizations and a y2k
group in the community. We do not expect any 100s, but a few 70s would be comforting.
A few have a y2k plan. NONE have a y2k contingency plan.
Back to work.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:45 - ID#153110)
@Oh, Canada @(That's "Oh" as in Why You Hurt Me ?)
WARNING TO ALL CANADIANS READING THIS!!!!!! The Canadian Government is now going to give very extraordinary powers to a newly created Agency under the said bill, whereas you think Revenue Canada is despotic in it's origins and also in it's operations? Read the said Bill C-43..... It will make you very angry with what the Feds are up to. For you Americans reading this message, the British North America Act, 1867 disallows the Canadian Government the powers of direct taxation under subsection 91 ( 29 ) of the said Imperial Act, and yet these ass holes in Ottawa have been breaking the laws of Canada under the color of law. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled on October 3, 1950 that the Provincial legislatures and the Parliament of Canada could not legally transfer powers back and forth from each other under sections 91 and 92 of the BNA Act, 1867. Guess what? The bastards ignored the ruling, and are in contempt of the highest court in Canada. So much for Freedom and Justice in a so called "FREE COUNTRY.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:53 - ID#350195)
X-Files on the right.
Batlle of Kursk on the left.
Baby's asleep.
Wife's at work.
Nothing profound, erudite or prescient to add...

In a word: "Hi."

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:54 - ID#284255)
There's no shenanigans going on here.
Just the porters bringing the baggage on ahead.

Tough times are ahead for our friends up to the North.
There's already some movement out of PNG heading this way.
The early birds?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:55 - ID#45173)
Having a late night snack myself, catching up on some reading. Hello to you.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 01:59 - ID#386245)
G'day mozel@Under Done
What do you think would happen, mate, if the US Gubbmint passed a law to confiscate any firearm ( from its citizens ) that could hold more than two rounds?? Well, it has happened here.

Now I know that this is not possible in Amerka. Or is it?? Charlton would certainly have something to say about it. On a personal level, I would not want to be the Gubbmint official assigned to the task of confiscating Oris' AK-47.

I have two concerns.
1 ) The Gubbmint, in its benevolency, has decided what is 'best' for us in the matter of self-defense.
2 ) If they can pass a law to confiscate firearms, then what is next??? Gold??? Generators??? Tuna/grub??? ( Janet may have to visit our mate, Squirrel ) .

It is happy hour here, so apologies for lack of deeper analysis.
SDRer--don't worry about Auracious' standards. He is a lawyer. Nuff said!!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:01 - ID#286230)
Get it together man. If you have some major earth shaking insight that has remained unseen by 30 million people for about 40 years give us a URL or some other reference for your view.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:04 - ID#350195)
Back at 'ya EJ
Mapleman: late Poll response ( caveat - these #'s are randomly generated - coin toss )
POG 317.65 ( range 100, 1000 ) = Higher than now
DOW 7623.58 ( range 1500, 15000 ) = Lower than now
Y2K 2.67 ( range 1,5 ) = Higher than now
( of coure, if I press F9 again they'll change ; )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:06 - ID#386245)
G'day and welcome to Kitco. Hope you don't melt in the hand.
A gulp and a puff to the first Kitcoite that can name a metal that 'melts in the hand'.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:09 - ID#350195)
No way it would be the fleet footed messenger?
First rock form the sun.
My wife's temperament?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:13 - ID#45173)
Is it true that so many own so little gold?
More than 3/4 of Kitco-ites own less than 50 oz.

If you haven't voted already, please do. Thanks.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:13 - ID#386245)
You don't have to be profound, erudite or prescient to post here. After all, Aurator and I have been posting here for two years!!! Not a 'p', 'e' or 'p' post in sight!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:14 - ID#386245)
Not mercury, mate. It is ALREADY melted at hand temperature. Try again!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:14 - ID#350195)
It's a trick question, right?
O.K., I froze the mercury first, then put it in my hand.
( ..and will soon be mad as a hatter... )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:17 - ID#386245)
Metal that melts in the hand.

Discovered by Lecoq de Boisbaudran, 19th century French chemist.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:21 - ID#153102)
@Looking for a URL to BNA for selby @DownUnder
Hmm. Some modification in gun sentiment from the antipodes seems evident. Lunar fullness ??

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:25 - ID#22584)
Stralians, Merkans & guns
Seeing all this discussion about firearms reminded me of the time, about two years ago, I was sitting having dinner with an Australian guy who I had just met. Somehow the conversation turned to America and violence.

I looked him straight in the eye and said "look, don't take any notice of what your left wing tabloids tell you. The reason why Americans as a whole won't give up their guns is simply because they don't trust their government."

The smile and look of understanding that came across his face was as if someone had turned on a lightbulb inside his head.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:26 - ID#257304)
i guess
as in chloride?

It's a curler,eh? We don't like shooters, but we stand behind Merka and Finland ( or is it the Swiss ) with the highest gun ownership in de woild. We don like wabbits, an possum

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:28 - ID#350195)
Still looking (Kelvin, Centigrade or Fahrenheit (sheesh)

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:30 - ID#45173)
From the Right Coast of the USA, if you're facing North, I'd guess sodium may melt in your hand but it'd melt yer hand too.

Nick, do you mean palm melting temp or does the metal have to be inert enough to be held?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:33 - ID#386245)
Chuck a piece into a glass of water and pour up your favourite politicians butt, though!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:34 - ID#350195)
On parle Galoise
( Shoot, my first line of AT guns is toast.. )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:37 - ID#350195)
Gallium (I meant)
Tigers & Elefants all over the place:
Call in the 152's ( help )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:38 - ID#386245)
The metal will be solid and will melt in your hand ( assuming you are warm blooded ) .

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:39 - ID#428218)

weiser ( Greenstone Gold ) ID#243100:
Go to a store and buy a soda pop with a gold coin

Mate, I do THAT every day, I live in Kalgoorlie........

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:40 - ID#386245)
A gulp and a puff to ya!!
Melting point = 31.15 degrees Celcius.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:47 - ID#153102)
On the Federal Reserve Note are printed these words: "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA". What do they stand for ?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:51 - ID#350358)
Gold Holdings by us Kitcoites ...
EJ -- I think this pole is going to be biased by the nature of the business. ( some have stuffed so deep they may have *forgotten* grin. )

But this brings to mind a question. I heard once how big of a cube space could hold all of the current world gold holdings if it were melted down. The size of 68' on the side comes to mind. This has been some time ago so I don't know how accurate it is today or if my figures even hold water.

An interesting thought though. Any input?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:51 - ID#284255)
Mercury or was it fool's gold?

They both slip between your fingers.
Same as options.

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:51 - ID#428218)
Gambler (Greenstoned)...........don't forget about the GOLD....

Greenstone GOLD..........

Sir, with respect.........


"The" issue concerning GOLD is.......who has cornered the market, or should I say GOLD is beyond the market, controlled by interests who have, over hundreds of years, known the "true" value of GOLD.

IF you have ever been directly associated with the exploration, development and mining of GOLD, you will understand the true nature of GOLD, it is rare.

I would deduce from your name "Gambler" that you punt, what can you deduce from mine ??!!!!!


Och aye the noooooooooooooooooooo........


(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:57 - ID#386245)
"On the Federal Reserve Note are printed these words: "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA". What do they stand for ?"
An unrealized ideal. Go to a 'Governor's Conference' or a Senate hearing and see how 'United' the 'States' are.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 02:58 - ID#153102)
@What Are The Implications of The Answer ?
the "United States of America" entity, now defined as an agency of the United States ( see notes following 18 U.S.C. 1001 & 18 U.S.C. 6

Holding any agency debt ?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:02 - ID#350195)
An interlocking directorate of banks, corporations and insurance companies?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:09 - ID#386245)
Aussie States
Every year the premiers of the Aussie States get together with The Prime Minister and Treasurer. They then have a fight over the division of spoils!! If Amerka follows suit, then MM is correct. It is all about the confiscation ( via taxes ) and division of wealth by the Federal Gubbmint.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:12 - ID#257148)
Yup. that's about right, assuming the WGC and commonly agreed total of all mined gold ( goaled? ) in human bean history of 130,000 tonnes, we got a cube about 22 yards on its side.That's the length of a cricket pitch, one chain, about 1/8 furlong, or 68 feets.

Would fit in one oil tanker, with displacement over 150,000 tonnes, I believe about 8 oil tankers per hour voayage through the straits of Malacca to Japan.

Ain't much gold lifted from the erf at all, eh sporran mon?

0f the 130,000 tonnes, well over half is practically inaccessible, jewellery treasures and relics, leaving 65,000 tonnes to be divided amongst mois and nick@silasmarner.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:15 - ID#45173)
I ran another poll last week on the percentage of investment capital invested in gold by Kitco-ites. The average was more than 40%. Now it looks like the average holding is less than 50 oz. or under US$15,000. Means you're not likely to run into your average Kitco-ite at the Four Seasons.

All the rich guys are holding paper. Big surprise, eh? I've always figured this gold affection as a kind of class warfare thing and this obsession with manipulations by CBs and money interests is a wishful thinking that big money is going to let a bunch of us low-life gold bugs get rich off gold. The dearest hope I see expressed here at Kitco is that the money games of the rich go haywire and they are forced to buy gold because of the collaspe of the debt welfare state. But recent events suggest that the resourcefulness of the CBs and politicians is nearly limitess. Not hedge fund collapse nor currency collapse nor banking crisis will bring it down. On and on it goes. For 20 years past the time my father was convinced that they system was destined to fall.

When the big money can make money from gold, gold will rise in price. But first they have to get it. The acqusision of the gold by the wealthy will precede any significant price increase. Until we see evidence of gold flowing into the hands of the wealthy, we will not see a rise in the price of gold. Instead, we continue to see the opposite.


(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:17 - ID#153102)
That it is an agency is known. What kind of an agency is not known except that it would be on OFFICIAL BUSINESS.
If you have ever received correspondence from Internal Revenue Service, you will recognize the phrase.
A clue is that corporations act by SEAL and on the FRN is a SEAL.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:18 - ID#45173)
Very late!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:21 - ID#350195)

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:28 - ID#350358)
aurator _Thanks on the 68'
68' -- a damn short pass for a high school quarterback!

Makes our few 'chuncks' seem a little more 'potent'. *if we
can remember where we buried 'em*

Thanks for confirming.

Hey! Happy Sunday to all. It is a pleasure to be in company.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 03:56 - ID#386245)
Graveyard shift stuff

The future is much like the present, only longer.

- Don Quisenberry

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.

- Thomas Jefferson

Ninety-eight percent of the adults in this country are decent, hard-working, honest Americans. It's the other lousy two percent that get all the publicity. But then ... we elected them.

- Lily Tomlin

Nice guys finish last, but we get to sleep in.

- Evan Davis

Do not make loon soup.

- Valuable advice from The Eskimo Cookbook

I can't seem to bring myself to say, 'Well, I guess I'll be toddling along.' It isn't that I can't toddle. It's that I can't guess I'll toddle.

- Robert Benchley

High heels were invented by a woman who had been kissed on the forehead.

- Christopher Morley

If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel.

- Will Kommen

If I had known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself.

- Anon

Never eat more than you can lift.

- Miss Piggy


(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:02 - ID#386245)
It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well.

a ) Thomas Jefferson

b ) Rene Descartes

c ) Dr.Kavorkian

Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are.

a ) Andy Warhol

b ) George Santayana

c ) Ralph Nader

An honest heart being the first blessing, a knowing head is the second.

a ) Mahatma Gandi

b ) Thomas Jefferson

c ) Bill Clinton

Many complain of their looks, but none of their brains.

a ) William Shakespeare

b ) Jack LaLane

c ) Yiddish Proverb

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:06 - ID#386245)

"Smash the state, down with government"

"Liberty, liberty"

"The tree of liberty must sometimes be nournished by the blood of tyrants"
Thomas Jefferson

"That and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee"

"You have the attention span of a rat terrier"

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:11 - ID#386245)
Some of the best

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

--Benjamin Franklin
Nov. 11, 1755

See to the government. See that the government does not aquire too much power. Keep a check upon your rulers. Do this, and liberty is safe.
--William Henry Harrison

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! -- I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
--Patrick Henry
Mar. 23, 1775

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson
Dec. 23, 1791

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned-- this is the sum of good government.
--Thomas Jefferson
Mar. 4, 1801

I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my Liberty, would not when he had me in his Power, take away everything else.
--John Locke

Though the flame of liberty may sometimes cease to shine, the coal can never expire.
--Thomas Paine
Dec. 23, 1776

Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine

Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.
--Alexis, Compte de Tocqueville
Sep 12, 1848

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force.
--George Washington

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:16 - ID#407135)
Australia's pollies at the trough
i am sure there must be a rule that says when politicians agree taxpayers suffer

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:17 - ID#386245)
Welcome to the Nick@C hour!!

See to the government. See that the government does not aquire too much power. Keep a check upon your rulers. Do this, and liberty is safe.
--William Henry Harrison

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:20 - ID#386245)
Burn this into your soul.
I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my Liberty, would not when he had me in his Power, take away everything else.
--John Locke

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:23 - ID#407135)
Who said "the price of liberty was eternal vigilance?" Was that big Tom too?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:24 - ID#386245)
I shook this man's hand and discussed 'politics' with him.
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
--Ronald Reagan

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:26 - ID#386245)
And this.
The other day, someone told me the difference between a democracy and a people's democracy. It's the same difference between a jacket and a straightjacket.
--Ronald Reagan

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:28 - ID#386245)
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Depression is when you lose your job. And recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his.
--Ronald Reagan

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:29 - ID#407135)
Who? Ronnie?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:30 - ID#386245)
At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -- miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic, and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.
--P.J. O'Rourke

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it cost when it's free.
--P.J. O'Rourke

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:31 - ID#407135)
Ronnie must have had better script writers as president than when on screen

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:35 - ID#407135)
Now you must be talking about Ronnies successor. I reckon he would have been the archtypal spoiled brat

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:35 - ID#407135)
Now you must be talking about Ronnies successor. I reckon he would have been the archtypal spoiled brat

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:41 - ID#386245)
G'day Robh
Are you the advance guard for the day shift?? Hope so. I'm running out of sayings.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:46 - ID#407135)
I'm another Aussie like you killing time on Sunday evening .The rest of those in a civilized time zone such as ours are probably watching Babe on TV

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:52 - ID#386245)
Had a LONG chat with Ronnie's missus...(1970) the Guv's manor. Nancy was MOST impressive!! A very nice lady and a perfect hostess for the State of Californy. Won't comment on her other beliefs that have come to light since. Just know that Ronnie would not have made the top rung without her.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:54 - ID#407135)
alas the missus needs to use the phone. Good bye

(Sun Nov 22 1998 04:55 - ID#386245)
Mind you...
...Jesse Unruh actually RAN the state of California all of those years. Governors came and went. Jesse WAS California.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:04 - ID#386245)
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:08 - ID#386245)
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. "
-- Theodore Roosevelt

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:11 - ID#386245)
G'nite all.

Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech.
Mark Twain

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:18 - ID#284255)
Searching For Year 2000 (Y2K) Solutions
"A strange idea had taken possession of the popular mind at the end of the tenth century. It was universally believed that the end of the world was at hand. A panic terror seized upon the weak, the credulous, and the guilty, who in those days formed more than 19/20ths of the population. To increase the panic, stars were observed to fall from heaven, and violent hurricanes to blow down the forests."

from Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds,
by Charles Mackay

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:26 - ID#432223)
Haggis - Hey Pal, seems I've stumbled into the wrong time zone. I'm here to discuss gold, not chit chat about "punting" from the rough. Is this another down under the mate custom? Between you and me, I wouldn't go advertising this "Scots" thing. Some ( Scots ) would take offence. Now with that aside, what do ya think $1,000 by Christmas?

Gambler aka Yanks Are Us

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:32 - ID#432223)
Atleast Someone Agrees with me
Thursday November 19, 10:10 pm Eastern Time

Gold stock fundamentals improving -Business Week

NEW YORK, Nov 19 ( Reuters ) - Industry fundamentals are improving for gold stocks,
Business Week reported in its Nov. 30 issue.

Most investors have been cautious while gold producers have endured a bear market since February 1996.

Gold producer Newmont Mining Corp. ( NYSE:NEM - news ) will be a winner if the price recovers, said Vince Carino of
Brookhaven Capital Mangement. He expects the price of gold to rebound in three to six months as the gold supply
stabilizes after producing countries such as Russia and Korea finish their ``panic selling.''

Carino said in BusinessWeek that he expects the price of gold to recover to $400.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:45 - ID#280214)
Aurator - shipping 3000 tonnes to & from NZ and in the process
Turning 3000 tonnes of Gold into 1 billion coins worth NZ$200 each. A shipping cost of NZ$1 per coin seems minor but totals NZ$1 billion! There ought to be some ship's captain who would take on such a venture. There are single ships which, with one trip per year could handle 600 tonnes per trip. For a local NZ company with such ships check out
Here is a rate request form - though I'd rather not kick their tyres unless I had product to ship.
and another outfit's form at:

(Sun Nov 22 1998 05:58 - ID#280214)
Goldbugs and religious fanaticism
Don't you DARE insult Gold or "Who Cares" will question your credibility. Even if have cause and evidence.
Weiser did not say fiat is better. He just said Gold is a dead as an investment. For my part I get a better return buying and selling Silly Putty and glass marbles. Now MARBLES may be a future currency. How many cat's eyes for a pound of ground beef?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 06:01 - ID#432223)
Green light to buy
Well, it's kind of like this as to the gold situation IMO, you buy or invest in assets at depressed levels. It's not the end of the world and yet, inflation never really disappears just hides from time to time. Gold acts as a hedge for both deflation and inflation. I'm betting on inflation. Currently us yanks are in golden economic times, but on the other hand our trade deficit together with the Asian, Russian and Brazilian crisis will not go away for awhile. Obviously, this will affect the Yank economy. Looks like 1987 all over. If you take a close enouph look, you see IMF policies going bad. Example, Indonesia. It's quite possible Japan, China, and/or Brazil will be the countries who will trigger the next market debacle. Hasn't the agressive easing by AG in light of the 3rd quarter GDP surprise giving us the green light to buy gold? I think so.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 06:06 - ID#280214)
To A @ 23:15 - there may soon be another measure of wealth
How much food you have in your pantry? Check out this site for why
If you have not previously read this article and its links - such as to the Boston Globe YOU REALLY SHOULD! No wonder reading all this stuff makes one pessimistic - to where a 30's depression starts to look like the optimistic scenario. Gold may not be usable - except in a furtive black market. Anybody caught with it may have it taken from them as they cough their last breath. Same goes for hoards of food. But at least I can hide in rabbit hole and eat my hoard.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 06:07 - ID#411440)
THE GOLD PROJECT: Forgive me if this is old news, but I was
talking to a coin dealer yesterday, and he said that in 1978,
the Canadian Government proposed forcing coin dealers to record
the name and address of any customer buying a gold coin, and
transfer the info to Ottawa. The coin dealers association
got an injunction against the move ( legal cost $7000 ) to block
the project. In a behind closed door meeting with the govt,
the association served the injunction, and govt representatives
simply stood up and walked out of the room. Nothing more was
ever said.

It wasn't the injunction that blocked them, it was the realization
that coin dealers would resist, and that the GOLD PROJECT would be
public. God forbid that the public should begin wondering why the
gov't would treat gold as an illicit substance. The idea has always
been to treat gold as unimportant and irrelevant in a modern financial
system. FWIW

IMO, this was not a made in Canada policy. I think the pressure to
impose this thing came from the United States. Canada has sold
virtually all its gold reserves. Guess where that decision was made.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 06:58 - ID#403335)
Y2K and Gold Options
From today's NY Post:

THE "Y2K problem" - the need to reprogram

computers to correctly recognize and store dates

after the turn of the century - is generating a lot of

overtime for the consultants whose predecessors

created the problem in the first place.

Now it seems that Y2K is helping to reignite

speculative demand for gold.

Sorry, goldbugs, I mean "investment demand."

Some of this has been reflected in sales of gold

coins. People out there in the country across the

Hudson are buying them at an all time record rate.

In the third quarter alone, sales of coins in the

United States were up to 772,000 ounces, a 170

percent increase over the third quarter of 1997.

Presumably they get stored next to the assault rifles

and canned goods that will see their owners

through the financial market turmoil and general

social disruption. Who knows? Maybe they'll be

laughing at us, just before they pull the triggers.

But the prospect of millenarian mayhem may be

causing a bizarre imbalance in the gold pit of the

Comex exchange downtown.

The gold option contract with the largest open

interest on the exchange is the December 1999 call,

specifically the 390 call. A call contract gives the

owner, in return for a premium, the right, but not the

obligation, to take delivery of a commodity, in this

case 100 ounces of gold.

The 390 call lets those owners acquire gold at a

price of $390 an ounce, whatever the spot price is

at that time. This promise is backed up by the AAA

rating of the Commodity Exchange, Inc., which the

millenarians might not believe will survive the New


The December 1999 call will expire on the second

Friday in November of the year. As of Nov. 18, the

total amount of gold call options for that 390

contract was over 3,200,000 ounces, which is over

90 tonnes of gold. The total gold calls for the whole

month is over 180 tonnes. That's a lot of gold.

To put that position in context, the January 1999

call options total a little over 660,000 ounces, or

about 20 tonnes.

Said one gold trader on the Comex floor, "If gold

comes in $30 an ounce better ( it closed Friday at

$296.05 spot ) it's going to be a T-Rex. Then it

would be unhedgeable. The whole thing is weird.

The date is all wrong. The size is all wrong. It looks

random, erroneous."

By "unhedgeable," our trader means that it would

not be practical to lay off the risk on other gold

market participants. When market makers on the

floor of the exchange sell calls, they don't plan to go

into their private vault and take out 100 ounce gold

bars and hand them over to you if the price moves

in your favor.

They buy some call options or futures on their own

from other dealers or exchanges who can get the

gold from mines or central banks who have the

physical gold to sell.

But the Dec 1999 calls are such a big, odd position

that it would be difficult to lay off the risk. Our trader

has heard the talk that this position has been built

up by individuals who are betting on Y2K problems.

But he's skeptical.

"Maybe 10 percent of the volume on this exchange

represents retail, on average. This is a professional

market, not a retail market. This just doesn't make


Because the Y2K position doesn't "make sense,"

right now it's created a lot of inefficiencies in the

pricing of gold options before and after the Dec


And those inefficiencies are the source of profit for

the floor traders.

By the way, for their own account, many if not most

of them are dubious about gold as an investment.

"It's been the worst investment in the universe,"

says our trader. "The cash costs of mining keep

dropping, and the supply goes up."

So where's the possibility of $390 gold? Do the Y2K

paranoids know something? Or is it just a small ring

of buyers. There is some talk that this is a very

small group doing this.

"This isn't going away," says the trader. "It's going

to get bigger and it could become a magnetic

Steve in TO
(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:17 - ID#287337)
Gold is a proxy for inflation and deflation. It falls and rises in value with the broad trends of deflation & inflation. Remember that as an investor you always want to buy whatever will increase in value and you want to sell whatever will decrease in value.

Gold hedges you against inflation, since the value of gov't currency decreases relative to real goods, but during deflations currency becomes more valuable, and gold loses value relative to currency. This is one of the reasons gold has been unable to break out of its price holding pattern. Some foreign countries such as Japan are undergoing 1930's-style deflations, and even in N. America commodities have been in a deflationary trend for years. The inflation and irrational exuberance that the central banks have been worried about are in financial ( fiat currency ) assets, especially equities. Gold commercials will not commit to long positions big time until it seems the deflationary trend in real goods is over. Why buy more gold than you need for current operations when gold will be under price pressure since it tends to follow the broad pattern of commodity prices?

Of course, gold is influenced by inflation/deflation trends, but not by them alone! As the most portable and universally recognized store of real value, gold is also a hedge against political instability . . .

- Steve

BTW- don't call somebody from Texas or Mississipi a Yankee, you might get yerself beat up! I know a guy from Virginia who did just that as a teenager when he was in England and an unsuspecting schoolkid called him one ( I guess he thought all Americans are yankees : )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:19 - ID#280214)
Gallium melts in the hand.
Neat stuff - where can I buy a pound or two?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:25 - ID#26793)
On the derivation of the word "Yanks". I have heard that a bunch of American sailors got off a boat somewhere in Asia and the first one introduced himself to the locals as "John Keyes" The locals tagged them all as "Yan-kees", as that was the closest they could say in the local dialect, and the name stuck.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:29 - ID#333126)
just re-watched "Die hard with a vengeance"
the bad guys stole all the gold from the Fed Reserve Bank of NY.


some people still think it's worth something.

quote from movie "yesterday we were an army without a country, tomorrow we have to decide which country to buy!" :- )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:29 - ID#284255)
Don't forget to eat your cookies. IE v4
1 ) If a web site uses a cookie with a 2-digit year of "00", Internet Explorer will recognize the cookie as expired. In this case, the browser will behave at that web site as if no cookie support is enabled. Cookies with 4-digit expiration dates, or expiration dates before and after the year 2000 work correctly.


(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:42 - ID#26793)
Gold coin proves explorers from Carthage discovered America in 350 BC

(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:58 - ID#341189)
Damn Yankees
My dictionary says "yankee" came from the NY Dutch population reference to English imigrants to Connecticut ( mid 1700's ) . The reference was to them as John Cheese, pronounced Jan Kees, and then mistaken for plural.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 07:58 - ID#26793)
Barron's, Trading Points (page MW16)
Has an article that indicates recent Dept. of Labor figures on unemployment are not correct due to sloppy collection etc. The wage withholding figures from individual states are coming in below estimates showing that unemployment ( or under employment ) is actually rising.

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:01 - ID#428218)
Gambler .......

US$ 1000 by that would be a "gamble" or a "punt".

When do you think the US$ will fall over the edge ?

Are you most interested in the "front" or "back" end of the gold market ?

Do you know what a "Greenstone" is ??

Och aye


(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:04 - ID#284255)
Free Norton2000

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:06 - ID#428218)
Squirrel (Gallium melts in the hand.)

Gallium, mercury, cesium and francium are all members of the same "club".

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:15 - ID#428218)
One must always remember....... The Chinese.........

Produce the order of 3.5 million ounces of GOLD per year, and have been "mining" gold since 400 BC.

I wonder what actual GOLD reserves are held by them, they most cewrtainly do not keep it in the Federal reserve in New York !!

Devlauation against what.... the US$, I don't think so....


Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:17 - ID#428218)
One must always remember....... The Chinese.........

Produce the order of 3.5 million ounces of GOLD per year, and have been "mining" gold since 400 BC.

I wonder what actual GOLD reserves are held by them, they most certainly do not keep it in the Federal reserve in New York !!

De-valuation against what.... the US$, I don't think so....


Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:21 - ID#428218)
The US of A to become a "banana" republic.....

First banana's, then the EURO vs Dollar, then GOLD.....

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:30 - ID#26793)
John Keyes really got around in those days; took a wrong turn on the Hudson River and ended up in China.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:33 - ID#350194)
Mr. jinx ( #44 ) - Interesting moniker - please explain if so inclined. Sorry I went off line yesterday and just now noticed your post:
"Date: Sat Nov 21 1998 19:05
jinx44 ( Mooney* ( @Rhody Withdrawals ) ID#350194 ) ID#57290:
Copyright  1998 jinx44/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
FYI: The USGovt has already determined since about 1990 that the multiple
withdrawels of Senior Rhody are prima facia evidence of illegal drug and money
laundering activity. The predicate acts of making several withdrawels that aggregate
$10,000 or more is termed "structuring". It is considered money laundering activity to
circumvent the USTreasury reporting requirements for cash transactions. It is a federal
felony punishable by 10yrs, $250,000, forfeiture of all cash and account credits. The
act by Senior Mooney of discussing this issue is criminal conspiracy and subject to
similar punishments. If the bank is aware of the regular and periodic withdrawels, they
are obligated to secretly report Rhody to Treasury CID. Their failure to do so can
result in their being held criminally liable under the Bank Secrecy Act and suffering
forfeiture and incarceration. This posting is not BS and is actively being enforced. Most
of these laws were enacted by Presidents Reagan, Bush and Cinton. Welcome to
Amerika Comrades."
The more I read of these Draconian Laws enacted by your supposed 'Government of the people, by the people, shorn the sheeple', the more I realise that 1984 is indeed upon us.
BTW - Although you are no doubt merely trying to be informative towards ALL here, I want you to realise that my astonishment at Rhody's methods of slow withdrawal was due to the fact that we both live in CANADA and, as far as I know, we have no such insane laws here, YET! I like cash. I like freedom. In 1996, for instance, I deposited $35,000. ( cheque from my lawyer's office ) into one of my bank accounts. In the next few months I thought nothing of withdrawing $5,000 or $8,000 ( cash ) here or there or tranferring $10,000 to another account at another bank. The thought that this should be traced by the brain police never entered my mind and therefore did not worry me one iota. I truly feel sorry for the millions who once inhabited ( and actually still BELIEVE that they do ) the land of the Brave and the Free.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:42 - ID#26793)
Microsoft considering a yearly "User Fee" to operate Windows.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:46 - ID#350194)
Cash Addendum
On a note of human interest, it has always amused me that tellers in banks often get real worried for your personal safety when you ask for sums as small as $1,000 or $2,000 cash, go to put it in your pocket and walk out of the bank. I have had 4 month utility bills ( on private residence ) add up to just over a thousand. Often it seems that people just don't realise that that $2,000. is worth about what $200. was worth in the sixties. Should you get an armoured guard to escort you to your car when you withdraw that $200.? ( $2,000. ) ?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:46 - ID#26793)
OOPS! Sorry, here is the Microsoft Windoss story

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:47 - ID#234182)
Squirrel 6:06
Good day; small correction you wouldn't hide in a rabbit hole if you are a would hide in a midden ..regards ( collector of all knowledge trivial )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 08:54 - ID#333126)
can you smell the tulips yet?
dunno about how true these figures are, but they don't sound too far off.
( stolen from a motleyfool board, stolen from a Bloomberg post )

Stock price per share without considering stock splits:

America Online $ 2740 P/E 354
Yahoo $ 573 P/E Def.
Amazon $ 361 P/E Def.
Excite $ 101 P/E Def.
Ameritrade $ 39 P/E 1925

(Sun Nov 22 1998 09:05 - ID#119358)
@now I find that the village' of CrannOberries never existe
in the misconceived, conceptually faulted realm of time. That this unknown place's brief being perhaps only occupied a single unit of non-time. For Time is not a a simple manner realized by our prehistoric state of perception, it falsely appears as homogeneous. Single units of non-time are to be known as a "jiggle". CrannOberries existed during a jiggle. I will be back for some time.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 09:22 - ID#350194)
@Arden and ALL - The Imminent Break-out?
Reviewing some posts from yesterday and today one would have to conclude that the extremely negative mindset that has taken hold of some posters, ( eg. weisser and EJ - although backed up by reason ) , is a sign that the turn around may be quite near.
Even Mapleman is having doubts! ( Hey bro - Why not also consider Centennial Silver coin sets and other 1966 and previous Canadian Silver Dollars as exellent gifts also? )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 09:27 - ID#350194)
What does P/E Def. - mean? Price/Earnings Deficit? In other words these stocks have astronomical valuations but no true value. Correct? Tulip bulbs anyone?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 09:34 - ID#370236)
testing jesting "omnes gallium est divisam in partem tres"

(Sun Nov 22 1998 09:36 - ID#234182)
STU.... OK's time to take off the acetaminophen tablet I asked you to tape to your head on Sat. morning....CranOberries are a condiment to be served on Nov 26th ....there not a village.... between you and Squirrel I've got a lot of remediation work to do ( := ) )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 09:46 - ID#119358)
@wert.O........thanks, but........
I have no time left for remediation...perhaps we might meet during a jiggle? The problem is I just don't know when to tell you that a jiggle might occur. pulses of time are non-synchronous, thereby, jiggles are subsequently affected by the same unpredictability.

When I know more, I will contact you.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 10:32 - ID#245136)
I'm a little slow but if you are thinking of time dilation.We could never meet because of the the muons paradox. Muons are high energy particles, the key to the paradox is, that,reletive to the ground,time in the muon's system slows down. Viewed in the muon's frame of reference, time passes as normal, but the distance to the ground is shrunk by the high relative speed of the Earth; so it is traversed within the muon's lifetime . Low energy muons produced in the lab exist for an average of only 2.2 microseconds. apologies to Sagan & Ronan

(Sun Nov 22 1998 10:34 - ID#333264)
@ Mr. Mooney

Me negative on gold, hogwash.
I'm betting the farm on it.
The only problem is when I begin to doubt myself. When questions like," could you and I be wrong and the other 99% of people be right" pop into my head. Time will tell, but as of right now I am still a gold bull.

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 22 1998 10:38 - ID#430260)
I disagree Wert; the morons in Washington can last as long as 8 years.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 10:40 - ID#350194)
More Hot Internet Stock Reports!
Some News From Our Friends At:
Copyright 1998, RagingBull.Com


K2 Design, Inc. ( NASDAQ: KTWO ) Actual Reported: ( $-.10 )
Date: November 19
Consensus Estimate: N/A

Lycos ( NASDAQ: LCOS ) Actual Reported: ( $-.06 )
Date: November 19
Consensus Estimate: ( $-.07 )
Analysts, Strong Buy: 7
Analysts, Moderate Buy: 7
Analysts, Hold: 1

Bluefly ( NASDAQ: BFLY ) Actual Reported: ( $-.89 )
Date: November 17
Consensus Estimate: N/A

RMInternet ( NASDAQ: RMII ) Actual Reported: ( $-.67 )
Date: November 16
Consensus Estimate: ( $-.14 )
Analysts, Strong Buy: 1
Analysts, Hold: 1


Date: November 20 Brokerage: CS First Boston

Date: November 16 Brokerage: Friedman Billings

Date: November 16 Brokerage: Merrill Lynch

Date: November 20 Brokerage: JP Morgan



"When stocks run up like thunder, insiders try and cash out so that their wives
can have their fur coats for Christmas...Or maybe their girlfriends a Porsche."

--Comments made this past week by John Fitzgibbon, editor of the IPO Reporter,
to Red Herring Online, regarding the mad dash for Internet companies to
announce secondary offerings. "

And the beat goes on, and the beat goes on...
See y'all in the funnies.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 10:48 - ID#245136)
Morning; good one; Stu must not want to take the bait..I've got to go do some chorers..cows to feed just like oil there not worth much but the overhead and operating expenses continue to inflate. ( := )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:00 - ID#119358)
@wert.O....sorry.....I had to tend to an urgent matter........
my Witherspoon albums were placed into the wrong sleeves....this flipped me back to reality for a moment of time. who is sagan? nanoseconds actually are primarily composed of jiggles, I agree.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:03 - ID#45173)
Sixty five percent of Kitco-ites own less than 50 oz. of gold
How about you?

If you haven't voted already, please do. Thanks.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:07 - ID#350194)
@Mapleman and All North Central NA Kitcoites Re: Holiday Get Together
Mapleman - I realise your disposition, its just that yesterday I also noticed your qualms.
Since its slow right now, ( or is this backwards thinking? ) , I guess its the right time to remind all within hitch-hiking distance of Toronto of a proposed Kitcoite informal dinner or luncheon get together in the upcoming holiday season. Any and all who would like to attend please feel free to e-mail me at: with suggestions as to date etc.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:12 - ID#245136)
STU: Carl Sagan sender of messages into space Pioneer10 Voyager probes ..Sagan produced a video disc which contained both scientific info and eath messages.... from Bach to rock and roll. Really must go now .please don't ask who's Bach.... glad you are back from deep space ( :+ )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:12 - ID#119358)
@wert.O...and I might add this in subtraction,
that the reality of the jiggle, as viewed within the first dementia, is unequivocably proven by the existence of such non-time events as heaven and the Bermuda triangle. no doubt, here.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:35 - ID#26793)
"I just don't agree that gold is the rock that it used to be"

(Sun Nov 22 1998 11:57 - ID#26793)
Site for NWO fans; calls for a single world currency and a single reserve bank

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:16 - ID#219363)
I'd have to say that Aurator's gold pig is gold imitating the fungible trading pig, the true asset of value. Gold is nifty, but it can't ever replace the pork belly as the core value store of the earth's people. Sorry gold pig, you're better than a gold coin, but you're never going to be a piglet. The gold pig does make a nice shrine to the pork belly, however, and is appropriate for wealth lover's everwhere who wish to immortalize the truest value on their fireplace mantle.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:25 - ID#219363)
EU Social Democrats Gather
BRUSSELS, Belgium ( AP ) -- Finance ministers from the European Union's 11 left-leaning governments gather Sunday to prepare for intensified economic policy coordination after the launch of the euro as the EU's shared currency on Jan. 1. The ministers are set to formally release a document entitled "The New European Way," which outlines how the socialists plan to use their new ascendancy in the EU to make growth and job-creation the top economic priority. Left-of-center governments now run all but four of the EU's 15 nations, including the four largest - Germany, France, Italy and Britain. "Our task is to find a way of marrying together an open, competitive and successful economy with a just and human society," says a draft of the program posted on the Internet by European socialist parties.

Good ol' boy
(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:28 - ID#26362)
Howdy gang!
We are slipping quickly into the doldrums, the period between Thanksgiving and New Years when absolutely nothing seems to happen. 1998 was pretty boreing vis a vis the POG, except for Bre-X. It will take the public a long time to forget that one.

Is there something BIG brewing. I read some thought in this domain wht speculated that once the EURO is launched, that the powers that be will no longer have reason to keep the POG down, in fact, to the contrary, it will be there best interest to see it rise. I do not fully understand the rationale, but it sounded interesting. I would be interested in mor thoughs on this.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:28 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulps and puffs, I am the single most inept man on the Eastern
Seaboard...I am in the wrong game,,,under attack from marauding raisins and marshmallows the paint is not dry and I have successfully disconnected the heatall my neighbors know Pine Top Perkins musicI spoke with Yossarian and he only has one ticketring me the Gerber peopleI am quite positive I got the wrong Baby food

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:36 - ID#390337)
Thanks for the compliment. "Platinum Gore" is actually a quickie spoof on how easy it is to generate a conspiracy from actual events. Given a single topic it is not difficult to formulate a plausible scenario. Leaves me resolute as a "conspiracy contrarian", unless it's actually true of course % )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:42 - ID#390337)
Date: Sat Nov 21 1998 21:25
weiser ( GOLD and SILVER are dead. ) ID#243100:
I have backing for its death. The newspapers and governments--- and markets. Do you need more?

Hey dude. Read the NYTimes this morning. It's a newspaper last time I looked. Let's see now, page 2 - Cartier, Piaget, Tourneau, page 3 - Tiffany, page 8 - Tourneau, page 14 - Tiffany again, page 19 - Movado, page 25 - Value America, page 30 - H. Stern, page 31 - Silver Queen, page 36 - NOA Soho. All advertisements for the selling of gold and silver products. Yup dead as a doornail.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:45 - ID#219363)
@Good ol'boy
Hey'ya guy! I'd think that the Euro folks wouldn't try to keep gold down or let it up. They'll no doubt be more focused on keeping it strong against other world currencies and against the "things that it'll buy", thus seeking stability more than a high or low value. I suspect they will be doing anything in their power to take the volatility out of the Euro's value, to "even it out" so that folks who use it can start depending on it as a stable store. If gold gets in the way, then I'm sure they'll crush it, if it helps their cause, then I'm sure they'll support it. I think the Euro lads and lass's main concern is that one day the Euro will buy a loaf of bread, and the next day it'll take half or twice as many Euro to buy the same loaf of bread. They want stability, they want people to get an intuitive feel for what the Euro will buy, what it's worth. They'll also be red-lining the PR machine trying to build the Euro's image, trying to get the world to use it. They just don't want any bad news.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:49 - ID#31868)
gold represents the finality of a transaction between is a concept wherein someone else sticks their nose in YOUR business like they got the license on moralitymoney is no more than a physical representation of the exchange between individualsTRUE wealth is the Honor in front of words spokena place where a lie chokes for lack of sustenance

Early Riser
(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:51 - ID#228275)
Case for Gold
Gambler: Your post of 6:01 imo summarized the case for gold so well that it has prompted me to come out of lurkdom for a moment. With regard to Greenspan, yes I agree the three rate cuts are the signal to buy gold. They imply that the fed has recognized that they have gone too far in protecting the value of the dollar. It has risen to the point that the USA indeed is on the way to becoming a "hamburger flipper" economy. We have bought low inflation and a strong dollar at the expense of global competitiveness, especially in commodities and industry. Will three cuts of 1/4% be enough? Well, watch the dollar vs. other currencies, the trade deficit, unemployment, corporate profits, and the stock market. If these don't improve or deteriorate, we are going to need a still weaker dollar which will imply more dollars and higher gold prices. And if some of the evaluations of worldwide short interest in gold are correct, the move could be spectacular.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 12:58 - ID#370236)
EU socialists gonna make a stab at free enterprise?
We got it all together now. $100Euro coin to be made of gallium.
Watch your wealth slip thru your fingers.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:01 - ID#225369)
I remember what I thought about gold and its prospects when I first began to invest in gold shares and precious metals.I couldn't believe they could be had for what appeared to be incredible,unprecedented values.Sure enough I watched as gold and silver climbed out of the lows and into the low 300's.Then,they fell back.I remember thinking that I hoped they would continue to trade near their lows for awhile so that I could accumulate a much larger position.I felt that the market had gone beserk and eventully precious metals would rise,perhaps dramatically and quickly in price.I got what I hoped for and a good dose of self doubt as well.

I really don't believe,now, that the metals will accelerate in price until the current administration is either deposed and reshuffled or until we elect government officials who change the perceptions of wealth and responsibility: It's ok to invest in the stock market at these levels because you need to be a buy and holder.Don't be confused by buy,sell,hold,accumulate recommendations because over the long haul,stocks outperform.These recommendations may seem to be market timing devices,but they are not.The problem is semantics, here.It is perception.What you should understand from this message is that a mutual fund investment is the best choice for an investor.This is how to rationalize this " negative capability",this dichotomy.You can hold and the fund will make the painful decision whether to buy ,hold,or charge more fees.Remember,when all else fails or it is perceived to be failing,the government will engineer a rescue and a bailout.All is well.All will be well.Don't worry.That's why you pay us.We do it all for you.

Now,if you happen to be one of those people who believe that all is not well and that it cannot be fixed so easily or quickly; you are dumbfounded.You , like me,have shorted this administration and this country.You believe in fiscal responsibility and fairness.You might even believe in the rule of law,that relic of yesteryear when an ace was an ace and heros were admired and lawlessness was punished.We could all agree that lawlessness must be punished.We expected and demanded that it must be accountable.I believe that I am growing angrier and angrier as this country becomes more and more complacent.I am angry that my government meddles in the public financial markets.Either the market is irrationally exuberant and needs to correct or the administration needs an approval rating one more time.Tweak,tweak: control.I believe that Clinton should be severely censured,if not impeached.

Oh well,IMHO,the longer this maddness goes on,the firmer my resolve becomes ,as well as my conviction that precious metals and real assets are a SCREAMING BUY. Someday,soon,they will run out of smoke and many will not like what they see in the mirrors.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:05 - ID#370236)
Gold is dead! We'd better inform the jewelers.
And the gaurds at Fort Knox, and all those CB's with gold that backs
their gallium currencies.
Oh, and the IMF. I'm sure they'd all wanna know.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:07 - ID#266105)
euro, row, row your bloat

US federal revenues 20% of GDP.

Typical European country, 40-50% GDP.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:22 - ID#119358)
@T#1........if itsa' pretty good dayO there..........
on the Island that is Long, yes, then it could become a fabulous absorption time for life's goodness, by simply hailing a cab'O'fare and transpositionin' yo'self into a disc-store and purchasin' for a few irrelevant fiats a single copy of......... "Jimmy Witherspoon and Robben Ford, Live at the Notodden Blues Festival" ( Blue RockIt label ) ....Jimmy tells it like it can never be told again....and Robben puts an angel in your ear,,,,yes, see, Jimmy was full'O'cancer at this point of time and both of them knew this would be the Last time to bea' playin' and lovin' on this green earth...yes, and they did laugh in the face'O'Death.'''in fact.

Do Not Delay this pursuit of this, pal. studio.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:26 - ID#266105)

ptwoskool- I am angry that my government meddles in the public financial markets.


I gather this is a reference to injection of public funds
by government agencies into the U.S. stock markets for the purpose
of restraining sharp declines. Has any credible evidence of that
activity yet come to light?

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:32 - ID#294232)
Its a new era.... 1929 all over again???? The market defies logic.........
Mr. Greenspan has panicked as the U.S. slowly comes to terms with the fact that never before in history have they been so vulnerable to the actions of foreign debt holders. The interest in the EU is gaining momentum as Country after Country committ to holding larger than expected amounts of its currency in their reserves. The world ignored the announcvement that the EU was calling for more gold to be transferred from its members in order to maintain its agreed upon gold backing level.My take is slightly different. IMHO I believe that the EU will make an announcement soon that will revisit the percentage of gold backing its new currency and that announcement will launch the next major gold bull! Thats right I have said for months as we get closer to Jan99 the EU will surprise the world and increase its gold backing by another 10%-15% ensuring the stability of its launch. Shortly there after we will see Japan and China launch its own version of a gold backed common currency and these events will push the USD off the map. As more and more USD return home rates will skyrocket and the true picture of the health of the US economy will become evident. At some point along the way the US will have to come to terms with its citizens that IT HAS NO GOLD! That is right the US has no gold and the return to the idea that gold is the only real true currency not tied to debt leaves the US BANKRUPT! Why do they continually refuse to audit US gold holdings? The IMF called for an audit of gold holdings and were refused. Worthless currency and no gold sounds like another Canada......

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:39 - ID#31868)
Las Vegas, I cannot send email...but this thought I wanted you to see...
I do not sleep wellthis thought you sent my way will allow me such

Thank You

Most Kind

Most Kind


Kevan Sarkis Khanamirian

A privilege to be one Who is allowed the Comfort of Your KIND thoughts


No matter the stamp affixed I shall greet each vestibule representing your thoughts with respect

Privilege Duly Noted


(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:42 - ID#225369)
More specifically,I was referring to LTCM.I still haven't gotten over that one.Imagine what would have happened to the perceptions of investors had LTCM been left to it's own devices.How would the unwinding have been different and how would market risk be viewed today.The cautious are not rewarded for caution.The prudent are prudes.It will not always be so.Recklessness is after all, a perjorative word.It is usually punished.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 13:57 - ID#266105)

Gotcha, the LTCM affair is well documented. I got a kick out
of one Buffet's folksy aphorisms on that one-- "you never know
who's swimming naked until the tide goes out."

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:04 - ID#290202)
...HATT...concerning you statement, "The US has no gold..."
I sure hope the US has SOME gold....'cause if they ( gov. ) don't, GUESS where they'll get some??? Yep, from their citizens via confiscation! Maybe that's why I do not advocate having all your assets in bullion. A little bullion, some mining shares, some options, some numismatics, some other precious metals.........maybe they'll let us keep something!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:17 - ID#335190)
Corporate Japan - Control Central @ All is well ?? ( SHOPPING COUPON'S-MORE PAPER EH!
November 21, 1998

Japan's Obuchi scores record low support, poll

TOKYO, Nov 22 ( Reuters ) - Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi's cabinet has scored a record low support rating due to a lack of public confidence in the government's economic policies, according to a poll published on Sunday.

The main points of dissent concerned economic policy, with 76 percent of respondents saying they do not think that the government's recently announced 24 trillion yen ( $163 billion ) economic stimulus package will lead to an economic recovery.

Some 62 percent of respondents said they were opposed to an Obuchi administration plan to give shopping coupons worth 20,000 yen each to people 15 and under or 65 and over.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:23 - ID#266105)
yennies from heaven

6pak-- why didn't they just bomb the place with yen.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:32 - ID#335190)
Corporate Mexico @ Denied any WRONGDOING (Do you know were your corporate welfare tax dollars ARE?
November 21, 1998

Arrest could shed light into financing tactics of Mexico's ruling party

MEXICO CITY ( AP ) -- A Mexican banker arrested after four years in hiding was charged with defrauding several banks of $60 million, prosecutors said Saturday.

The case of Carlos Cabal Peniche, arrested in Australia Nov. 10

Cabal rose from obscurity to the top levels of Mexico's business world, mingling with political leaders in the early 1990s and winning control of two formerly state-owned banks, Banco Union and Banca Cremi.

The Democratic Revolution Party, or PRD, stands to reap major political advantage if Cabal is tried and found guilty. He is believed to have made campaign donations to Mexico's ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI.

The PRI has denied any wrongdoing and says the matter should be a dead issue because election officials had earlier accepted its campaign spending reports.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:43 - ID#26793)
Deutsche Bank rescue, er, "merger" with Bankers Trust largest in U.S. history

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:47 - ID#431200)
Wealth transfer is a wonderful thing--that is, provided you're on the receiving end.
Sunday, November 22, 1998 MARKET BEAT / TOM PETRUNO
For Richer and Poorer--Wealth's on the Move in '90s by TOM PETRUNO wealth transfer is a wonderful thing--that is, provided you're on the receiving end. It's not nearly so pleasant if you're on the giving end and your "gift" is essentially being taken from you rather than cheerfully donated.The 1990s have been about some giant wealth transfers in the global economy, involving many hundreds of billions, even trillions, of dollars. The givers have included Saudis princes, Iowa farmers, Indonesian laborers and Orange County pensioners. The receivers have been hundreds of millions of consumers, and tens of millions of investors, worldwide--but mostly those in the United States and Europe. The rich, in other words, have gotten richer. And you know how the rest of that line goes. The Great 1990s Wealth Transfer was in high gear again last week, manifested in the wealth-receivers' favorite symbol: the Dow Jones industrial average. The blue-chip stock index surged 2.7% for the week to end at 9,159.55. That leaves it a mere 2% rise away from a new all-time high that would eclipse the old peak of 9,337.97 set July 17--before all of the global depression talk came and went. Reluctantly on the giving end last week, meanwhile, were two groups that undoubtedly feel like they've given enough over the last eight years: commodity producers, including oil exporters and U.S. farmers, and U.S. small savers. How do they give--and how does the Dow, in turn, receive? The 1990s wealth transfer has occurred on three major fronts. Here, a look at what they are and who has lost, and won, in each case:* Wealth transfer No. 1: from commodity producers to commodity consumers. The price of a barrel of crude oil on New York futures markets ended last week at $12.14. A little more downward pressure and the price will fall through the 12-year low of $11.42 reached June 15.
Imagine your salary or wage reduced to where it was in 1986. That's the reality oil exporters must contend with as the world remains awash in crude. Adjusted for inflation, the price of oil is far lower than it was in 1986. Which represents a massive wealth transfer from the oil producers to everyone in America who has to fill a car gas tank a few times a month. To put it another way: If oil prices had not declined so sharply, each of us would be forced to spend less on something else in order to afford the relative luxury of our national mobility. Not too many Americans shed tears for the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. But many other commodity producers also have surrendered wealth to consumers in the 1990s. U.S. farmers today receive 5% less for a bushel of corn than they did on Dec. 31, 1990. In that same period, copper has slumped 39% in price and gold has tumbled 25%.Not all commodities are lower, but it has been the 1990s trend for quite a few--particularly in the last few years, as supplies of key commodities have ballooned compared with demand. That's the nature of commodity markets, of course; they tend to boom and bust, and this is a drawn-out bust stage for many.It's easy to say to U.S. hog farmers--who saw pork prices decline last week to 18 1/2-year lows--that they shouldn't breed so many hogs. But as long as they're doing so, people who love pork pay less to eat it, which leaves them with more money for other things--great for our consumer-spending-driven economy and thus great for the stock market. * Wealth transfer No. 2: from the developing world ( and key exporters ) to the developed world. Economies of many countries in the developing world are based on raw materials ( i.e., commodities such as copper, tin, oil and foodstuffs ) , which gives this 1990s wealth transfer some overlap with the one described above. But the Asian economic crisis that began in mid-1997 with Thailand's currency devaluation multiplied the effects of this wealth transfer manifold. As East Asian currencies, stock markets and economies collapsed--wiping out decades of accumulated wealth--the initial effect on the United States was largely to increase our wealth. How? The crisis triggered a plunge in U.S. Treasury bond yields as investors worldwide sought super-safe securities. That in turn pulled other long-term interest rates down at the end of 1997 and the beginning of this year. Especially mortgage rates. Cruel as it may sound, the fact that millions of Indonesians lost their livelihoods helped many Americans afford bigger and more expensive homes, thanks to falling loan rates. A second wave in this wealth transfer now is arriving in full force: cheaper Asian goods, as those countries try desperately to export their way back to health. This wave ( along with lower commodity prices ) is helping to keep U.S. consumer price inflation at a very low rate, which in turn has allowed the Federal Reserve to ease interest rates without much fear of stoking inflation fires. True, U.S. wealth also was lost as the Asian crisis became the Russian crisis and then the Latin American crisis beginning in August, sending most U.S. stocks into their worst plunge since 1990.
But for many investors, most of that stock market loss now has been recouped--just in time for the holidays, so that those same investors can feel financially confident walking into Wal-Mart to load up on value-priced Asian exports. Even for developed Asian exporters, particularly Japan, the 1990s have been about a loss of wealth, or slower growth of wealth, versus the financial gains made in the stock markets of the United States and Europe, and the personal gains of many consumers in those economies. * Wealth transfer No. 3: from savers to investors. The Fed, in cutting its key short-term interest rate ( the federal funds rate ) by a quarter-point last week to 4.75%--the third rate cut since Sept. 29--obviously has made Wall Street happy again. And there is little question that the Fed and other countries' central banks had to take the offensive with interest rates as the global financial crisis of August, September and early October threatened to destroy confidence in the world financial system. But small savers, including many pensioners who can't take stock market risk and instead depend on income from bank CDs and other safe accounts, once again feel as if they're subsidizing Wall Street. Nationwide, the average national yield on one-year bank CDs has slid from 4.92% on Sept. 29 to 4.45% now, according to CD tracker RateGram. That may not seem like much to equity investors, but it certainly makes a difference to a pensioner on a fixed income. Many CD-dependent Americans probably pine for the late 1970s and 1980s, when small savers were rewarded handsomely for taking relatively little risk with their money. Even as recently as Dec. 31, 1990, a one-year CD paid 7.35%--a yield that must look spectacular to today's savers. As savers have given up substantial interest income in the 1990s, stock prices, of course, have mushroomed: The Dow index has risen 248% in price alone ( not counting dividends ) since Dec. 31, 1990.
The story has been much the same in Europe, as equity markets there have surged while interest rates overall have fallen sharply.
So wealth has, in effect, been transferred from savers to investors, and for reasons that make perfect sense to academics. For one, inflation has fallen, which in turn should reduce the inflation "premium" in interest rates, especially in rates on virtually risk-free accounts ( such as CDs ) .
Lower rates, in turn, make stocks more valuable on their own, and give companies more financial freedom by lowering their borrowing costs.
But that doesn't make savers any happier about earning less.
Naturally, from equity investors' viewpoint, this wealth transfer--and the other two--ought to go on forever. They have been interrupted in the 1990s on a few occasions, but not reversed, or at least not for very long.
But it's wise for the receivers of these wealth transfers to realize both how much they've benefited from them--and how much it could hurt if the wealth flows were somehow reversed.
Payback, as they say, is hell.
Tom Petruno can be reached by e-mail at
The Great 1990s Wealth Transfer
Commodity prices and interest rates have slid in the 1990s, and the fortunes of developing Asia and other major exporters have weakened. Their losses have been the developed world's gain-as reflected in the latter's stock market gains.
Investment/security Dec. 31,1990 Now Change
Money market fund yield 7.16% 4.73% -2.43 pts.
1-year bank CD yield 7.35% 4.45% -2.90 pts.
30-year T-bond yield 8.24% 5.22% -3.02 pts.
Corn ( bushel ) $2.32 $2.20 -5%
Gold ( ounce ) $394.20 $296.20 -25%
Copper ( pound ) $1.18 $0.72 -39%
Hogs ( pound ) $0.49 $0.30 -39%
Oil ( barrel ) $28.44 $12.14 -57%
Investment/security Dec. 31,1990 Now Change
Australia ( All Ord. ) 1,279.82 2,703.60 +111%
Taiwan ( weighted ) 4,530.16 7,380.53 +63%
Indonesia ( composite ) 417.79 461.56 +10%
S. Korea ( composite ) 696.11 452.93 -35%
Japan ( Nikkei 225 ) 23,848.70 14,779.94 -38%
Thailand ( SET ) 612.86 371.93 -39%
Investment/security Dec. 31,1990 Now Change
U.S. Nasdaq composite 373.84 1,928.21 +416%
U.S. S&P 500 330.22 1,163.55 +252%
Germany ( DAX ) 1,398.23 4,911.88 +251%
U.S. Dow industrials 2,633.66 9,159.55 +248%
Britain ( FTSE 100 ) 2,143.40 5,717.50 +167%
France ( CAC ) 1,505.10 3,802.70 +153%

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:49 - ID#266105)
dismal science

Details the changing who holds what in U.S. stock and bond

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:51 - ID#335190)
2BR02B? (yennies from heaven)
2BR02B? ( yennies from heaven )

I like that! Yennies here, and yennies there. A gift from heaven. "In god we trust", saith the corporation, "all other's must pay".

Thanks, take care.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 14:59 - ID#254288)

Governments with large balance of payment deficits are likely to encourage and "not tax" future gold production when they realize they must have adequate gold reserves for their paper money to be acceptable.

After the FDR confiscation, only the recent mintings and the less than numi-quality gold exists for government edict and it's not all in the US.

They can buy it at a fair price using gold dollar certificates after they ratify the constitution to "state exactly" that those certificates will be immediately exchangible by the populace ( not corporations ) back to gold or silver.

When things change, they change fast _ count on it.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:08 - ID#266105)

6pak-- Agree this big business corporate stuff is all over
the place. Acer computer, Sanyo junk in the entertainment
center, Kenmore in the kitchen, boots from Walmart.

Reminded of my 3rd grade elementary school teacher who
had us point our fingers across the aisle and then said
look down at where the other three are pointing.

Take care.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:19 - ID#31867)
If Your word of Honor means nothing your money is garbage...
Thus the Lesson Endeth...

(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:31 - ID#237264)

True, but with all the white collar banditos, hedge funds and assorted government induced power mongers out there the place where control is evident is crystal clear.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:43 - ID#237264)

It would be nice if "REALISTIC" would comment on your 14:47_________That is......If he was able to do so.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:45 - ID#270227)
Reply to THE HATT
This gentleman evidently commented on the "Nevada" TREND and ask if someone besides PDG was active in the area ..... I have been following MIQ-M for over two years. About a year ago they signed with Kinross. Below is an indication of where they are going:

Subj: MIQ.M ( close $.35C )

It is difficult to be excited and not run at the mouth about how MIQ.M is
doing technically and read too much into the charts. A normal chart would
be screaming turnaround, consolidation, or a downward price action after a
triple from its low and it maybe that MIQ.M's chart is screaming just that.
But, in favor of irrational excuberance and MIQ, I believe we may be
witnessing a classic and rare 10-bagger in progress ( not $10 but 10 X .11
or $1.10 ) . Before you get too excited let me say that there is not one or
even two indicators that would confirm this. In fact, the smartest thing
anyone could do would be to sell half-on-a-double. YET, the excitement
created by leaks, rumors, innuendos, and kinetic energy surrounding this
year's Kinross drilling results that aren't even out yet combined with the
very recent high-momentum and force that is building in the technicals
makes me tell you that the dam is about to break. Caution: do not trade on
this information, do your own due dilligence. That said, I sense in the
charts an energy that I have rarely seen since I learned to read these
special-kind of tea leaves. Here are the factors that favor a POSSIBLE
10-bagger ( BX.M may be a 10-bagger from .03 soon too ) :

-- these indicators are off the scale or extremely vertical: stochastic,
William %R, Force Index, Commodity Channel Index, On-balance Volume,
Relative Strength index, Price Momentum, and finally Price Performance.

-- The CCI on the weekly chart is 107, with a likely 220 before it turns down.

-- Upper weekly bollinger is $.45C, it burst through $.24C on the daily
upper bollinger.

-- The upper weekly bollinger is tracking up, just like a price tracks down
during a drop in stock price.

-- the site did a write-up on MIQ. This is a highly
respected financial site with Bill Murphy as patron. This coverage might
bring in serious buyers.

-- The chart looks very similar in many respects to ANV.V's recent runup to
around $1.38.

-- News is yet to come out.

-- Junior stocks need a "hero" stock to launch the next gold bull in junior
exploration companies. Might just be MIQ.M.

-- Gold is forming a price-base around $290 that provides a platform to
jump higher in its next up cycle. It might hit $320 this go around.

-- If KGC ( Kinross ) makes any significant release on results at MIQ.M, this
will only add to the interest.

-- Unknown positive factors ( chaos effect )

I see a few negatives to watch out for:

-- Technicals are screaming overbought.
-- Results could be announced that might dissappoint folks.
-- No results or news may be immediately forthcoming and the momentum might
-- MIQ.M might announce results but not Kinross.
-- Unknown negative factors ( chaos effect ) .

Bottom line: watch BX.M and MIQ.M volume and price action. Be careful not
to chase it. Watch for evidence of a halt pending news or other halt. Watch
for other rumors that may confirm or deny the above. Ultimately, though, I
am excited about the technical factors.

I will not be putting out a TA Stuff this weekend.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:52 - ID#335190)
2BR02B? @ This person's view of finger pointing.
Federal Reserve Act.....December 23 1913

Congressman Lindbergh said on that historic day, to the House.

" This Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President signs this Biull, the invisible governnment by the Monetary Power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately, but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed. The trusts will soon realize that they have gone too far even for their own good. The people must make a declaration of independence to relieve themselves from Monetary Power. This they will be able to do by taking control of Congress.

Wall Streeters could not cheat us if your Senators and Representatives did not make a humbug of Congress....If we had a people's Congress, there would be stability.

The greatest crime of Congress is its currency system.

The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking bill. The caucus and the party bosses have again operated and prevented the people from getting the benefit of their own government "

YES, the remaining fingers point in OUR direction, EH!

Be Quiet...Consume..And Die.

Take Care

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 22 1998 15:54 - ID#294232)
DA KINE/ Nevada Area play.
Thanks for the information and by the way these four juniors have very similar charts which leads me to believe that some form of minor accumulation has already begun. I am with you, re the Due-dilligence aspect. Lots of discussion at the Randol Gold show referring to the potential of Nevada and the possibilities of it becoming a huge area play. MIQ, WKR, CLH and CLN. Does anyone know of any others?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 16:03 - ID#270227)
A good one for THE HATT
Please induge me but I thought you might be interested in some early research on MIQ-M.....before they signed with Kinross:

Hi Bill, As I mentioned on the SI thread, here is my pick for a
Junior which I think will do outstanding with continued good
results and a sharp increase in the POG. The company is MIQ
( Mirandor Explorations ) on Montreal. First if you'll allow me to
tell you a brief story which will put into context the reason I
now hold a substantial position in this little company. Back in the
mid-80's I got into Barrick gold early and made a killing,
basically I was in when it was meare pennies. I swore if I was
ever to find another story like that of Barrick I would again hold
a substantial position in the company, but it had to have a similar
property. Over the years I have made some exceptional money
in the Junior golds, but it is MIQ that has me very excited about
what they may do in the months to come. My research into MIQ
lead me to Peter Munk's biography where I picked up the
following information along with my own investment horizon in
the mid-80's:

Presently MIQ's story is similar to that of Barrick Gold when it
first started it's project in the Carlin Trend ( in term's of location
and composition of the property ) . This is due to location of the
property in the Carlin and the location of a Carlin "GOLD
WINDOW" on the property. Anyhow, back in 1983 Barrick was an
oil exploration company. Barrick didn't even own their Goldstrike
property ( in the Carlin Trend ) in 1983, they were still looking for
oil under the name of Barrick Explorations. In fact, it wasn't until
1986 that Barrick got involved in negotiating for the rights to the
6900 acres of Goldstrike. At the time Newmont was sitting on
250,000 acres in eastern Nevada, much of it with promising gold
deposits. It had enough to keep it busy for many years to come,
so going after Goldstrike wouldn't make much of a difference, so
they thought at the time. They felt that the geophysical makeup
wouldn't allow for an economic find and at the time they knew
the area better than anyone else. At the time of negotiations,
Barrick, or rather Munk did not want part ownership of
Goldstrike. The two owners were Western States and Pan Cana
and he got both of them to sell their shares to him. The deal
actually closed on December 31, 1986. It was considered a small
gold mine at the time and difficult to unload overall. While in the
hands of it's pre-Barrick owners they did drill one hole down to
391 feet and found high-grade ore, indicating significant
reserves. However, the reserves were all refractory ore, which
was at the time extremely difficult to extract. In fact the funny
part is one of the owner's of Goldstrike, had to make a choice to
either sell a horse farm in southern Kentucky or the Goldstrike
mine ( can you say ooops ) .

When Barrick initially started looking at the property a guy by
the name of Smith, who was with Barrick, went down to Elko,
Nevada, to take a look at the property. They found that the
operators were not exploiting the orebody to maximum
advantage. Smith and his team were confident that by spending
a little money and using a variety of recover methods, they
could increase the recoverable reserves to 1.2 million ounces.
This is when they decided to buy it. This is where it gets
interesting, while they were checking the property after the
December 31, 1986 purchase of Goldstrike, when Smith and the
crew were up there, Brian Meikle had stood at the lip of the
open pit one day and said to his colleagues, "You know, we've
got Genesis a few miles to the south ( 3 million to 4 million
ounces of reserves owned by Newmont ) , we've got Bootstrap
and Dee a few more miles to the north-west, that's another 2
million ounces, and there's all these little small pits, scattered all
over the place. I wonder if all these pits represent a leakage
from something major, at depth." No one took it any further, but
they all knew it was a possibility.

The reason I say this is interesting is that it seem's the situation
on MIQ's Railroad project is similar to what happened at Barrick.
With gold having been proven all over the Railroad project,
including, Elliot High Ranch/LT
East/Darkstar/DikeSwarm/POD/Bunker Hill etc. It appears that
MIQ is doing the same thing. They are putting together strong
shallow results for an open pit mine leading to a a leakage which
could be something major, deeper down???? Just speculation on
my part, but I have inquired with my geologist contacts and
there is nothing else that would make sense otherwise.

Anyway back to the story, a couple of months into 1987 and
Brian Meikle called Smith telling him the core from their first
exploratory drill hole was showing 0.36 ounces per ton for a
depth of 330 feet. At first they actually thought someone had
salted the core, that it was too good to be true. They
immediately drilled a hole 10 feet away. They didn't even tell
Munk. Meikle did the drilling and got even better results. Other
holes were ordered drilled further and further away and
gradually it dawned on them that the orebody was just what
Meikle had speculated it might be...a massive gold-bearing
deposit deep underground that spread its tentacles all around
the area. Jackpot! Basically, that's the story of Barrick's find in
the Carlin Trend. After adjusting for stock splits , Barrick's shares
rose from $1.90 at the end of 1986 to $5.20 a year later, then
$10.87 three years later, and $15.50 two years after that, in
December 1992. Then in 1993, it almost doubled to $28.50 ( note:
Barrick split 2 for 1 three times in 1987, 1989 and 1992 ) and the
rest is history. Anyway thought you might like to here some
facts of Barrick's find, since it has been mentioned with RELATION
TO MIQ. Note the first drill hole, .36 opt at 330 feet.

Well Bill, that was a nice story and I wish they could all turn out
like that. However, it appear's to me that MIQ is the closest to
mirroring this Barrick story and here's why. Keeping in mind the
above events for Barrick Gold, the following points now relate to

1 ) MIQ's Railroad Project is about 30 miles southeast of
Goldstrike. MIQ has the second largest gold window in the Carlin
Trend located on it's property. The largest is Barrick's Goldstrike
property with 26 million+ ounces and the third largest it
Newmont's propety with 10 million+ ounces. A gold window is an
anomoly where platlettes have been pushed up within the earth
and mineralization is evident at shallower depths.

2 ) MIQ has already hit gold reading in 6 zones POD/Bunker Hill/LT
East/EHR/Darkstar, plus there are still a number of wildcat
deposits. The results are fantastic, you can see them at their
website It appears as if there are tentacles
spreading all over the property. The strongest results are from
the POD zone and the newly encountered Bunker Hill zone, with
continued drilling to come from both of these this year.

3 ) During the depths of the gold market in Nov/Dec of 1997.,
Kinross Gold agressively sought out MIQ and signed a JV deal
with MIQ. Providing a minimum of $17 million US over the next 4
years, to develop the property. MIQ had 6 other interested
parties, but decided to go with Kinross since they would not
shelve the project and results are now beginning to come out
for this years drilling.

4 ) Their primary targets are POD and Bunker Hill, both sit on the
Carlin Trend Axis ( where there are numerous gold deposits
throughout ) . In addition, these two zones are intersected North-
South by the Pinon-Anticlie axis which also has great gold
deposits throughout. As a mining professional friend of mine
said,"mother nature doesn't put gold in just one spot and goes
away. The fact that they are locating many zone with stunning
grades, makes for some potential fireworks to come."

5 ) MIQ outbid numerous major's for the property and paid
approximetly $2 million for it.

6 ) The Railroad project is I believe historically knows as the
"Circle of Death"., essentially because there have been a lot of
players interested in it, but no one has been able to put the
project together. According to my sources and rock hounds,
Kinross is ecstatic over the project and in particular the POD and
Bunker Hill zones.

7 ) No need for much further dillution of shares since they won't
need money for drilling and are drilling now while other's are
sitting on the shelf. The only other dillution will be for operational
and promotional stuff when necessary. Management is
competent, with the President being Jim Speros at the helm and
essentially he was the one responsible for the deal with Kinross
when the Gold market was in the toilet. He's great to talk to,
give him a call if you wish. I'm looking forward to seeing his
selling ability in a good gold market, instead of the bear trap
we've been in to date.

Anyhow Bill, thanks for indulging my rambling. I hope this is
some payback with all the valuable information you have

Remember check out their web site for results
( )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 16:36 - ID#252391)
HATT your 13:32
Your suggestion of increased backing of the Euro by gold and China and Japan's coming together in a gold backed or reserved currency is a gold bug's dream come true. I suspect the obsticles too such are immense.. First, does Europe really want a rock hard currency. Higher the currency the less competitive their exports. Could Japan and China ( old enemies ) comingle their currencies?? Not soon. The leader of China is visiting Japan for the first time in history - it'll take a while before they form a joint currency.

Nice thought, yours, would certainly lauch a new bull, but doubt we are there and I'm not going to bank on higher Euro reserves or a Japanese/Chinese currency. I think the move is the other way - competitive devaluations to gain trading advantage - still good for gold.

By the way, how is that story with ABX covering their hedges??? Anything new to that "well founded" story.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 16:46 - ID#316193)
"So That's Where All The Greenbacks Went"
"Cash held by foreigners isn't chasing U.S. goods, and it
isn't funding U.S. firms. So the prices of houses, cars
and pencils shouldn't be affected, this argument goes."

(Sun Nov 22 1998 16:54 - ID#31868)
Jack............Hmmmmmmmmmmm...Oh...but of course, Namaste'...gulps and
puffs to YOU and YOUR FAMILY...the tran that is my quil is subtlety a remnant of a different erafastidious be me to weave carpets that your babies feet are greeted properly uponand I must tell you that as I leap down the stairs after them I am capturing the laughter which is theirsthis mischief is innocent and will arrive from a zip-codeSMILEYou are blessed

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:01 - ID#376309)
I'm becoming increasingly BULLISH on Gold! I stated that Gold would go to $250 many times here. Well I no longer think that is a given. I am not ruling it out but we are going thru $300 before any meaningful decline will happen. After getting out of my longs on Thursday I bought them back on friday at $296.0 and went home long. Monday should be a good up day. After that we could pull back and even $292.0 can not be ruled out before we go thru $305 and all, but I think that would be all that gold is going to pull back at this point. After a move up possible as high as $320 we should make a more meaningful decline after that. Anyway any rally is welcome and any real move in Gold up or down is great.


(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:05 - ID#376309)
To George Cole and all the other Bulls.

It is possible for a bear to change directions before the sea actually changes!

The Fed cutting interest rates three times in such a short time will prevent the masive decline I was looking for.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:08 - ID#237264)

May all your Gulps and Puffs bring everlasting happiness to you and yours; as they have brought here. NAMASTE

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:08 - ID#413156)
A Must See
Mike Sheller TeLeVoid on DVD The brilliant animation in this science-fiction fantasy mocks the violence and negative fixation so prevalant in modern television. The gothic musical score carries you from one twisted reality to another. Dont bother with the remote, Nothing can save you.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:17 - ID#26793)
UBS posts loss of US$664 million, most of it from LTCM hedge fund

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:21 - ID#350194)
6Pak - Are you gonna make it a sixsome and join us in a kitcoite festive meet in TO? e-mail me with suggestions:
BTW - still got your button on hold from aurator.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:37 - ID#237264)
Romarco Minerals (

Company shareholders were schduled to vote on Nov. 20, to ratify the deal with Franco and Euro ( Nevada ) for a sale that will bring them 480,000 Franco Nevada shares and 620,000 Euro Nevada shares for their Midas Project which abuts the Nevada twins soon to be producing Nevada mine.

Anyone know about the results of the meeting?

Romarco also plans to buy up to 10 million of its own shares for about $20.5 million, this should leave them with about 15 million outstanding shares and warrants that could be exercised for about 5 million new shares.
They have concentrated in Nevada exploration and have had some eye opening drill results on the various properties.

Company is debt free and seems to be an excellent candidate too merge with a successful underground miner with simular financial conditions.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:41 - ID#386245)
The electricity has been OFF here...
...for about an hour. But not for MOIS!!! Breakfast time--so went out and cranked up the Honda. Runs the toaster, microwave, electric jug, computer, tele, radio etc.--all at once. The missus and I are having a NORMAL morning while everyone in this town is WITHOUT power.

Don't know why the power is off--nothing on the radio ( signal from next town ) . Glad it has happened though. Good test of our Y2K preparations.

The Honda is a 5.5 KVA ( 6875 Watts ) 4 stroke. Real beauty. Runs everything in the house except the stove--as long as you don't put everything in the house on at the same time. Uses a bit of petrol ( gasoline ) so now that breakfast is over, I shall soon be switching to the 1200 Watt Yamaha, which I can run the computer etc. on all day for little fuel. Can still do my share trading etc. Just crank up the big feller for meal times or greater power use.

How prepared for power outage are YOU???? Cheers, Nick

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:45 - ID#294232)
Jims/ Funny you should ask re:ABX Hedge position!
Spoke to a well connected Senior Mining Executive at the Randol Gold Show and quieried him on the possibility of Munk covering his hedge position. He rather doubted that we would see that happen, not because it would not make economic sense but because and i will use his words, "ABX has become a political animal". I got the distinct feeling from this American Executive that he was far from fond of ABX and its hedging strategy. Oh well it was a nice thought while it lasted. By the way my source was confirmed in the Washington Post where the figure of one billion was repeated.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:51 - ID#228128)
Letter from a father to his family
A while back someone posted URL that contained a letter from a father to, I believe, his children describing his vision of economic events to come. In he described the rivalry between the BIS and the fiat currency system. Could someone repost the URL for that? Thanks

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:52 - ID#294232)
DA KINE/ Thanks for the info.
It sounds to me that Murphy is beginning to develop an interest in Nevada as I have been told he is looking at CLN as well. Just a note of caution,without a economic intersection by one of these Juniors it could be Spring before we see the demand build for these Juniors. Lets hope for an early XMAS present.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:54 - ID#218248)
Take the money and RUN!!!!
We now have hit 5 year highs in bullish sentiment, 57%, versus 31.6% bears. Everyone I talk to, and I mean everyone is in this market. I have never seen sentiment this optimistic! This market is in deep s _ _ t!!
I would even go so far as to say the top of Wave ( 2 ) is complete. The pattern was a a-b-c -x- a-b-c. Put call ratio hit 40 on friday which is one tick off the 5 year lows. This is not the kind of action that you see after a 20% decline! Reality is about to set in. Every index with the exception of the Dow declined in 5 waves. Most people who were calling for devasting new lows have all changed their tune. Why? I had stated near the lows that the wave 2 up would be breathtaking, and suck everyone back in. It has, including the most die hard bears.
Just remember, this market won't telegraph it's next decline. You just better be the heck out of the way when it begins. SELL NOW!!!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:56 - ID#344326)
That article is called "The Sting". At one point, it was on the golden-eagle Web site. I'm not sure if it's there now.

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:56 - ID#294232)
Glenn/ What has caused your change of thinking.
Not like you to become extremely bullish. Please share your thoughts behind going long this weekend.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 17:59 - ID#386245)
Missus is ecstatic!!
She is running the washing machine etc--going about her usual routine. Doesn't think I'm quite so crazy NOW!!!!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:08 - ID#287279)
RLM, re your 6:58
Consider holding physical PM and no paper.
That imbalance is created by professionals. They are expecting something to happen in 2000.

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:09 - ID#428232)
I have just been watching the news.........infotainment....

Clinton in NSouth Korea.......

last week it was ..." I cannot leave Washington due to the raq crisis....."

Lets lay a bet....if Wall Street "pops", then it will be on with either or both of Iraq + N Korea...........

Clinton "must" be seeen to be pro-active...

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:13 - ID#428232)
Do you ever get that feeling.....

...that you are talking to a brick wall.......

"Most" people here in WA have no interest in the in's and out's of the incoming EURO...

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:17 - ID#316193)
IDT -- Here's the link, "Mr. Johnson's Letter to his Sons"
Re-key without the 'en', as usual

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:20 - ID#233379)
Nick Generator-How much gas can you store?
How long can you go at the current rate? ( how much gas can you store? ) .I have been contemplating looking into a natural gas /propane conversion for small engines similar to what people did to convert autos during the gas crisis.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:31 - ID#434108)
a view of Jakarta, from Sydney

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:32 - ID#433242)
At the end of times isn't gold suppose to be worthless? If so, maybe that is why it defies logic and remains low in value now.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:35 - ID#344286)
Carlin/Battle Mountain Trend thread
Started By: +J.E.Currie
Date: Nov 10 1998 6:08PM ET

Continuing the discovery of the Carlin Trend

AREA PLAY- The Carlin Trend-50 miles long, 5 miles wide including 20 major deposits
with a geological resourse of 69 million ounces.

The E&D companies that are presently working/drilling this area of Northern Nevada in my
opinion offer high return-low risk potential rewards in spite of Golds beating. The
movement is afoot to
now finally say its ok to have some, and a portion of that some should be considered in and
around the safe, secure, and potentially humongus reward a basket of these might return. I
offer no real insight into the companies I have found and I only have a small position at this
time in two of the companies.

I enlist the support of those of you that might see the potential rewards if we all do our due
diligence. Perhaps we can add to this list with respect to more plays and more research!
Meridian Metals Corp.
Inmet mining ( US ) inc.
North Mining Inc.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:37 - ID#246299)
Arbitrage v Administration
While anything is possible, not everything is probable and it is prudent to separate the former from the later.

Bringing forward a new currency is an awesome task. It requires a strategy and an implementation plan. It is not probable that world governments would comfortably leave the market to 'sort it all out' and establish the market/prevailing values in the fiats. Such a laissez faire policy, an anathema to all parties, was not considered.

Common sense analysis, and probabilities, indicate a policy of fiat management, under broad monetary ( world central banks ) administration.

The simple skeleton of the strategy we have discussed before, here it is only necessary to state that in addition to the Gold Ruler, use has been made of historical ratios and relationships in the PMs, but applied in an innovative fashion to management of the fiats. Man is rarely truly creative but dependably---and wonderfully---innovative.

This is not "conspiracy", this is government working as government's work ( which is why the moral qualities of government leaders are of such import and why limiting the powers of government is a sensible thing to do ) . The constant references to "conspiracy" strike one as yet another PR tool to redirect the observer's attention

Let us consider one very small example of what has been accomplished quietly, behind the scenes, with no visible ripples on the surface of the liquidity pool.

In January of 1997, an ounce of gold cost the Chinese 3,054 yuan/renminbi, the yuan was at 00.13 US and 00.10 euro.
The dollar was equal to 8.2982 yuan/renminbi; the euro was at 10.4059 yuan/renminbi.

Last Friday, an ounce of gold cost the Chinese 2,451 yuan/renminbi, the yuan was at 00.13 US and 00.10 euro. The dollar was equal to 8.2777 yuan/renminbi; the euro was equal to 9.6559 yuan/renminbi.

And the Chinese did not devalue.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:51 - ID#386245)
SIOP@gas storage
Storing large quantities of gas ( petrol ) is a problem. I am good for a couple of weeks flat out but would then depend on finding more.

Does anyone know of an additive for gasoline that makes it less dangerous ( explosive ) to store?? I feel a bit uncomfortable storing large quantities as we are in a bushfire area.

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:54 - ID#294232)
Cueball/ My hat comes off to you.
The reason I have chosen Nevada is that it only makes sense to spend exploration money in a known goldbelt, that has proven friendly to mining. Placer is grabbing everything in site over the last couple of months and that tells me that they could very well be sitting on a tight hole. What would make this play would be for one of these Juniors to hit. A major find by one of these Juniors would create ten baggers for them all over night. Has the potential to be huge. I am playing CLH and CLN for similar reasons. Clh is being funded by PDG which means no stock dilution. Cln is fully funded by the Japanese and they have a mine in production as of last month. In both cases the funds are in place to expand both programs without diluting the stock as WKR did last week.
Incidently the 3,500,000 unit private placement leads me to believe that their drill program will be extended this winter. Was told insiders took down the PP. Dilution is always a concern and 7,000,000 shares is a healthy amount.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 18:59 - ID#376309)
I'm not sure of an additive but they do make gasoline containers that are less likely to explode ( Explosion resistant NOT explosion proof ) . The containers have a mesh inside of them and they are used in racing car gas tanks and I have seen gas containers made of the same design. They have been on teh market for a number of years. I'm not sure where you can buy one but ask at the local hardware store. They are more expensive then normal.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:19 - ID#233199)
@Glenn @Guss
I belive those gas casn were called Explosafe and after a trial adoption by part of the Military were dropped ( form use ) for some reason.

A Canadian product; I haven't heard anything about them for years.
A trade mark search might turn something up.

Anybody know more? It seemed like a good Idea - but then so did Gold a few year ago.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:22 - ID#317193)
SDrer...and it in the same


(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:27 - ID#254288)
Geo Exchange Info (Heat Pumps)

Circulating water in buried poly pipe, taking advantage of constant ground temperatures are coming into use in the US. Transfer in the heat pump creates the heating or cooling without any contaminates.
Can a sloar system run the heat pump?
Also pipe placed in ponds have been used as a source.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:30 - ID#390337)
@Nick@C That's the whole point with gasoline.
Lot's of tiny explosions inside your engine. The metal mesh on the gas containers is supposed absorb the heat of the 'flame front' initated outside of the container. A persistant ignition source has inevitable results. The gas additives available are used to absorb water methyl alcohol or permit longer storage before gum build-up ( naphtol, benzamide, phthalamide or glyceryl mono[stearate, acetate, benzoate] )

Now about finding ways to make the gold market REALLY explode...

Gold dust
(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:34 - ID#36791)
Comments please

Kinross Gold Corp -

Friday deposit drill results

Kinross Gold Corp
Shares issued 292,827,214
1998-11-17 close $4.37
Tuesday Nov 17 1998
Mr. Del Steiner of Idaho Consolidated reports
Idaho Consolidated has received the results of core holes PC12 through 15
drilled on
the Friday deposit on the Petsite project in Idaho County, Idaho, from joint
partner Kinross Gold. Hole PC14 returned 76.2m grading 1.302 g/t gold
11.7m grading 3.227 g/t. The bottom of the hole terminated in gold
grading 3.04 g/t. Mineralization was encountered along the entire length of the
excluding a post-mineral dacite dike. The assay reports received for holes
PC12 and
PC13 have supported the company's belief that the Orogrande shear zone is
conduit for mineralizing solutions and a host for high-grade zones.
These holes were collared 100 feet west of PC10 ( 85m grading 3.81 g/t ) on a
north/south line and the holes are oriented to the east at a dip 45 degrees with
the intent
of delineating the Orogrande shear zone and establishing the orientation of the
zone. The initial model projected a steep westerly dip to the Orogrande shear
when most recent drilling indicates a steep easterly dip to the shear zone.
hole PC12 ( total depth of 600 feet ) was terminated short of the high-grade
feeder zone.
Hole PC13, 100 feet west and north of PC10, confirmed the east dip to the
shear zone
and intersected substantial mineralization as predicted in the geologic model.
PC14, 100 feet west of PC10, drilled to the east at a dip of 45 degrees,
intersected the
high-grade feeder zone and confirms continuity of grade down dip. The
is associated with quartz/sericite/pyrite alteration as well as small stockwork
These results indicate that the Friday inferred resource drilled in 1997
calculated at
22,018,042 tonnes grading 0.803 g/t ( 17.7 tonnes ) has a high-grade
component related
to the Orogrande shear zone. The high-grade component and extension of the
structurally-controlled deposit along strike north/south and at depth have not
fully-delineated nor incorporated into the global resource estimate.
Hole PC15 is located 1,700 feet south/southeast of the Friday resource on
projected strike of the Orogrande shear zone. The hole encountered a zone of
shearing and substantial alteration, as well as significant gold intercepts. This
the extent of mineralization along the Shear zone to the south.
A total of 8,000 feet of drilling is scheduled on the Petsite property and
Kinross is
currently drilling the 11th hole of this season in the OroFrisco pit 1,800 feet
north of
the Friday deposit.
This project is under the management of Kinross Gold and assaying done by

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:36 - ID#390337)
@Nick@C Market Opportunity
How about a CO2 blanket inside of the gas can. Ronco gas-a-matic. Uses CO2 whippet cartridges and screws into a standard gas can nozzle. One spritz and you displace all of the O2 in the can. Makes great stocking stuffers. Order yours TODAY!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:46 - ID#246299)
Tyoung-Have you read "Three Men in a Boat"?

It appears to be less critical, but certainly part of the crew. Oar now in the water on this one. ( Data acquisition absorbs too much time!
And turning data into information is a time-sponge alsohowever, we row ever onward. )

My apologies re:CEF -I still haven't done my DDwill get to it ASAP.

Aragorn III
(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:49 - ID#212323)
letting the cat out of the bag...consider this...
If one can put all preconceptions and prejudices aside, one can see
things with clear view and be amazed at what is found just before his
Consider breifly the conditions for successful euro launch...the member
states must meet specific convergence criteria ( economic criteria
consistent with gold standard currency ) --balanced governmental budgets,
low interest rates, low inflation, etc.
Eleven nations are in the news to form this European Union, yet we have
seen TWELVE nations meet these criteria ( 13 if you witness Latvia ) . The
number twelve nation has been...the United States. As some european
nations have cut interest rates in haste during these remaining months
prior to final convergence on January 1, 1999, we have seen the Fed cut
rates too, even as a surprise to some. We have seen what has been touted
as the first balanced annual buget in years ( although the debt certainly
remains ) . We see what is called low inflation in the U.S.
We know that Mr. Greenspan is a longtime gold advocate, and that he does
not avoid the BIS meetings. He would certainly take an interest in doing
what he knows in his heart to be the right thing. Even as the euro takes
flight, the U.S. dollar must also return to gold. The world is not so
large as to act with significance--creating a gold standard currency--
without involving a partnership or arrangement with the U.S.

Even as Italy has its woeful economic balance sheets forgiven for
European Union on the merit of their impressive gold inventory, so too
the United States shall find its way clear of decades of unpaid bills.
The gold inventory may be used to set things right.

It might be natural to think of the U.S. in an adversarial and
reactionary position following the actions of the European Union. I
think you will find it nearer the truth that the Treasury and Fed have
been working in quiet corners to mitigate the turmoil and shock from the
reckoning that will be required ( in regard to the national debt ) as the
world moves back to a gold standard. The US dollar must also find itself
backed by gold ( or euros as gold's proxy ) , but it will suffer a poor
exchange rate as settling the debt will remove much of the US gold
inventory, the wealth of nations. Bonds held by Japan, China, and others
must be paid in gold for any hope to be maintained for an orderly
transition to new currency. Or else they must forgive the debt entirely.
As I prepared to make these remarks ( Friday A.M. at USAGOLD ) I encountered this Reuters brief from Mr. Greenspan.
I think you will like what you are about to read...
Friday November 20, 11:03 am Eastern Time
Greenspan says confident euro will be a success
FRANKFURT, Nov 20 ( Reuters ) - U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan
Greenspan said on Friday he rejected the idea of target zones for global
foreign exchange rates and also said that he was confident the single
European currency would be a success.
Greenspan told a banking congress in Frankfurt that he was extremely
confident "that the euro will be impressively successful."
Greenspan was making an opening statement at the start of a panel
discussion at the congress.
Greenspan nonetheless made clear that the European Central Bank had a
key role to play in ensuring the currency's credibility.
"The issue of the competitiveness of the euro as an international
currency will depend crucially on the credibility of the ECB," he said.

Turning to a debate in progress about the possibility of global foreign
exchange target zones, Greenspan said: "It is a desirable goal. It's
just not feasible."
"The presumption that we can create exchange rate target zones is an
illusion," he added.
Greenspan said intervention to stabilise currency levels in such a
system would simply be unworkable.
Japan, the euro zone and the United States would require huge sums of
money to manage currency levels in such a system and governments could
balk at such huge payments, he added.

got gold standard?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:53 - ID#237299)
Using dry ice to evacuate gas and diesel tanks before welding on them is standard procedure. Being heavier than air ( or flamable vapor ) it forces all of it out the opening as it expands.

Despite such low technology, it is often overlooked. A guy I went to school with back home was doing a "quick" repair on a tractor- and paid for it with his life after lingering for weeks with the severe burns of the explosion.

Aragorn III
(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:54 - ID#212323)
Golden moments...
A gathering of friends, even now, await my arrival. Departure is my return to in pocket for eyes not already wide.

Good evening to ya, and thoughts turn to the Island that is Long.

got travel plans?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 19:57 - ID#26793)
Traces of plutonium found in North Korean soil and water samples

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:12 - ID#390337)
@obsidian - See, we're both wrong.
The North Koreans have found the ultimate gasoline additive % )

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:13 - ID#316193)
Max is Back! Thanks Max.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:14 - ID#347264)
@Gold dust - KINROSS K.T
IMHO very bullish release. They indicate that they have a substantial high grade zone in the otherwise lower grade deposit. Looks to me like there is still more potential reserves to add.
I will be increasing my position in K on any weakness.
It's a very liquid stock that reacts very closely to the POG, and if your bullish on the POG then..............

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:28 - ID#317193) may need some help...
as far as an expansion of sorts such as late 1800's. I think you will find the Euro country currencies track silver also. As well they should for most assets of "real value". Tis all interwoven.

CEF...exercise all the rights...subscribe for additional A units and effectively have gold and silver calls for May an November. Sell shares after exercising the rights if you are to heavy into CEF.


(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:30 - ID#219363)
Goldbug Pep Talk
Someday our great grandchildren are going to think we were the wisest folks the world had ever seen. We're going to be the folks who bought gold and other precious metals when nobody wanted them, when gold was being given away at under 300$US an ounce. We're going to be the people who got out of the equities markets in time. We're going to be the people that they study about in history books when they look for a bright side to the end of this bull market. They're going to look back at charts of today's equity markets and say, "Didn't they see that the equities were selling at outrageous valuations ?", and their teachers will say, "Yes, but most people were on a euphoric high and didn't get out in time". Some kid, maybe your great grandchild, is going to say, "Did everyone lose all of their money ?", and the teacher is going to say, "Yes, except for the 'lucky' people who saw it coming and bought gold, silver, and other assets that were under valued". Think back to when your grandparents and great grandparents were alive, not everyone lost money during the harsh bears of their time, only the folks who ran with the crowd, who listened to the market reports on the newly created radio. It was all sunshine and blue skies, except for the people who had two feet on the ground, the people who watched their ass when it all became so fantastic that it slipped into the realm of the surreal. Someday your great grandchild will get a chance to stand up in that class and say "My great grandfather saw it coming, so he sold all of his stocks and bought gold", and the child's teacher is going to say, "Your great grandfather sounds like a wise man".

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:35 - ID#31868)
Third in the House of ARAGORN, Namaste; gulps and puff to ya,,,you my Dear, DEAR
FRIEND need a Bouncer at your door...the onslaught of your mind...all that is within...creature comforts need time to take place...

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:44 - ID#411163)
Getting impatient? We have to remember that we are fighting
against the best financed and widespread foes we could have. Meaning the entire worlds central Governments and central banks. They know they will run out of sheeple if they lose control. In the end, the results will only be more spectacular when our day comes.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:46 - ID#252391)
To Envy
The smart people may better be remember as those who stayed long the stock markets of the world and particularly added on during the late Sept '98 downturn.

Take a look at Asia it is reigniting, take a look at Europe it's going back up - hell take a look at the S&P - talk about a strong looking chart pattern, such a thing in gold would call for immediated calls for confiscation.

( Note: start confiscation discussion, now )

Kitcoites are missing the boat - they are trapped in a philosophical mind set that precludes their understanding change has occurred. Fundlemental comparrisons are out of date - usefull in hindsite - new factors like money flows and expanding saving are driving the financial markets - along with deflation in commodity charts. The world is becoing a bigger place - valuation levels are going to a new plateau.

Asia opening stronger today. These chart patterns look great. If you didn't know and thought they were gold stocks you'd be salavitating.

Kitcoites are for ever calling for the big equity crash - the only thing that technically bears have going for them is the relativel light vloumn on this advance and relative weakness of the Russel 2000. Yes, the leaders where the vloumn are are stronger than the average - what'sn ew about that.

Dow 10,000 before gold $315!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:48 - ID#228128)
Bank of International Settlements

Leland - Thanks for the URL. I recalled this letter when I read something in the latest Princeton Economic Institute's World Capital Market Review. Appearing first below is some of the contents of the Letter published at golden-eagle. After that is a section of the cover article from PEI. You be the judge but it appears that the BIS has some leverage over Japan that may in turn influence world markets and gold.


The third thing I learned was that the BIS had two ironclad objectives. Both were so bold that they would take your breath away:

1 ) To destroy the Soviet Union, as a threat to world peace.
2 ) To destroy the dollar as the worlds reserve currency.

If you are going to derail the dollar and the Great Bull Market, you better bring a pretty big checkbook. The new money coming into the mutual funds is running about $20 billion a month. Unless you can top that kind of buying pressure, you don't have a chance. How in the world do you shoot down an animal that big and that powerful? In my opinion, the BIS and its Japanese partners have come up with an ingenious answer. It is big enough to work. It goes like this:

The sting began two years ago, in August 1995, when a rash of bad loans and insider scandals brought the Japanese banks to their knees. The BIS became alarmed, and advised the Japanese to lower their loan rates to %. This created an enormous gap between the low Japanese rate and the 6-% U.S. rate. Into this gap poured speculators from Japan and everywhere else. The speculators would borrow yen in huge amounts. They would then sell the yen, and put the proceeds into U.S. paper, thus making an enormous, guaranteed return. This came to be known as the "Yen  Carry Trade". This yen  carry trade has been going on for over two years, in virtually unlimited volume. It created a huge demand for U.S. bonds, which in turn sustained a huge and unprecedented bull market in stocks.

In a similar fashion, the Japanese and others found that they could do the same thing with gold and this came to be known as the "Gold  Carry Trade". The speculators could borrow gold at about 1%, sell the gold, and then invest the proceeds in U.S. paper, with a huge guaranteed return. How delightful! How delicious! But how lethal!

I say lethal because this yen  carry, gold  carry Ponzi scheme has created a "potential short squeeze of colossal magnitude". ( Michael Belkin, "Strategic Investments", May 14, 1997 ) Sooner or later, these fantastic leveraged schemes must be unwound. The gold and the yen which were borrowed and sold short will have to be bought back; and the bonds that were bought with borrowed money will have to be sold. The totals involved are probably well over a trillion dollars, or far beyond the mutual funds yearly take. Anything could trigger the debacle. As long as gold keeps going down or the yen keeps going down, no problem. As long as bonds keep going up, no problem. But once gold starts to rise, or the yen starts to rise; or once bonds start to fall, these huge positions would be unwound. There would be a run for the exits, and the panic would feed on itself. Margin calls would ruin the leveraged speculator in short order. There would be no way to stop the carnage. All it will take is a coup to start the waterfall.


The economic stagnation in Japan is without a doubt worsening. Over the remaining months ahead leading to March 31st, a crisis is brewing thanks to the BIS. The banking crisis in Japapn may yet cause a new contagion within world bond markets. The BIS requirements upon Japanese banks were established at the peak of the bubble economy in 1989. They set forth a huge differential for reserve requirements between domestic and international assets. For domestic assets, Japanese capital requirements are only 4%. However, for international assets, a bank must have 8% in the reserve requirements. This huge differential has caused serious damage within the Japanese banking industry forcing many to liquidate and close their overseas operations. This has been one primary reason why the Japanese government has attempted to keep a strong yen. ..... The BIS is in reality creating a very serious threat to the entire global economy due to the fact that Japan represents the largest reservoir of savings. The BIS is in fact causing global deflation and in reality may cause the collapse of the Japanese banking system itself.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 20:59 - ID#29048)
the s&p chart since Oct 8 is amazing. Oleman at Avid called the change and the 30 day ema still points up. gotta keep one foot in both camps, but my index fund is beating my gold stocks by a bunch.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:05 - ID#210282)
Return to the EURO Snake?
Aragorn III: Why is AG discussing exchange rate channels, and governments being forced to keep exchange rates constant by expending reserves ( gold again? ) . If AG is against semi-fixed exchange rates, it can only mean that the US is not capable of maintaining semi-fixed exchange rates for the US dollar.

What is interesting is what is not said. Someone has stimulated AG to talk about going back to fixed ( or semi-fixed ) exchange rates. That someone is probably European. Which country or countries could go to a fixed or semi-fixed exchange rate, and thumb their noses at the US?

What confuses me is that according to 'The Economist' Guide to Global Economic Indicators, the European nations have more debt and entitlements than the US -- at least in the official releases that 'The Economist' reviews. How can the Europeans, who apparently are in worse shape than we are, even consider returning to semi-fixed exchange rates?

On the other hand, if Europe is in such trouble, why is Deutsche Bank buying out of the large US banks? It will be interesting to see who keeps buying out who -- that may be a more realistic assessment of who actually owns the gold.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:08 - ID#219363)
When all the stocks I sold get back to the levels I sold them at in June ( well, maybe when any of them do ) , I'll start considering that the bull might have some legs again. Until then, I'm still smiling in cash, and in my recently purchased gold. The writing is on the wall, and that's from a guy who was in this bull since the beginning, not somebody who has been a bear for the past decade. I am truly happy in cash and gold, more power to the folks who see a future in the equities. I just don't see much upside, maybe new highs for a time, but I dunno, it just feels like a loser now. As for Japan, it always looks bad just before it gets really really bad. Ask the goldbugs about market bears, they'll tell ya.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:18 - ID#210282)
Euro Snake addendum
Aragorn III: AG has on occasion wistfully referred to the 'good old days' when currency exchange rates were fixed, and balance of payments shifts were handled by countries delivering gold to and fro. It was then an easy matter to see who had a strong currency, and who did not, as the country with the strongest currency had the most gold ( trade weighted ) .

AG's reluctance to go to semi-fixed or fixed exchange rates means that he does not think it is a good idea right now. This is extremely telling, given that he certainly would love to go to a gold standard, if he could.

Guess he wasn't secretly buying gold after all.

Just imagine what AG might be thinking if Germany has offered to move back to the gold standard -- beginning with exchange rate channels -- and AG knows that the US cannot follow suit.

With all the smoke and mirrors surrounding the EURO launch, it sure is hard to determine whether the ECU can actually move back to exchange rate channels, and eventually back to the gold standard, or whether this is just talk to threaten the US dollar.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:25 - ID#252391)
Give up this talk about gold standard
How in the world would countries go about expanding their money supplies if they were on a gold standard - how would they at the rates that will be required to keep up with entitlements in Europe particularly.

Gold standard would put Central Bankers in straight jackets - wishful Gold Bug thinging. Buy an internet stock - make some money.

Asia markets off to a rip roaring snorting start. Europe will be breaking out all over - one percent a day is weak performance. Buyers under the market will buy any dips.

Dow 15000 before gold 385

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:29 - ID#252391)
ANdd in your heart....
you know $385 gold is about as far away as the moon, while Dow 15000 could happen now through normal volitilty. The NASDAQ100 did a 50% move from its low in early October to present - less than two months. Our grandchildren could have grandchildren before gold gets to $385. Only when the powers who are loose control will gold have a spike rally - and they haven't budged.

Pack it up, go buy a biotech stock.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:38 - ID#225236)
Isn't there some stockoholic annonymous you could instead go to?

I doubt you can convince anybody here to believe your "wisdoms" anymore we could convince you to believe ours.

Most people here have their minds made up and do place all their money accordingly. Whoever is wrong will ( eventually ) be a beggar ( or Social Security recepient - same thing ) .

The battle has been drawn.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:42 - ID#290202)

I think we need another play.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:43 - ID#219363)
Nah. In my heart, I know to quit while I'm ahead. The markets have been over-valued for a very long time. Some investors might want to push their luck, push it all the way to the wall, but it ain't for me, not with the real money. Gotta buy low and sell high, not buy high and hope the crowd pushes it higher. That stocks could see such large moves in such a short period of time should tell everybody something. That's just what a bear does when it's reached a bottom, spike down and force everyone out, and so it is with a bull, spike up and suck everybody in. I'm not trying to convince ya. : ) I'm fine where I'm at. I'm trading on simple logic as I always have, and when faced with the choice between three shares of yahoo and two ounces of gold, I'll take the gold.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:43 - ID#225369)
I,too,bailed out and gladly give the remaining upside to others optomistic more than I am.Let the market go to 10,000.What is that--another 10%? So what.We have seen what the potential losses were.Up and down,up and down.Groundhog day investing in gold:300,then down,etc.

You know,I want to believe that history is relevant.I don't buy this new paradigm magic .But I am; I really am amazed how that which is fake is real anymore.I don't care what the home team win streak is----and it is amazing----but,it will end.And to top it off,I've done ok.

So...........on to ten thousand.Don't you wonder how Abbey C. feels right now.


If it can only last.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 21:46 - ID#210282)
BIS, Japan and new stricter banking rules.
IDT: This reminds me of the income tax reform in the US -- the Tax Reform Act of 1986. 'Well-meaning' US leaders eliminated all sorts of loopholes in the tax code that allowed 'excessive' tax deductions in all sorts of real estate and speculative investments such as producer - to - be oil wells.

The formers of this act were correct about one thing -- that loopholes in the tax code caused distortions in real estate -- as well as being a way of avoiding payment of income taxes.

Problem was -- the solution was devastating to US real estate, which still has not fully recovered.

Well -- the 'well-meaning' BIS has imposed new banking rules on insolvent Japanese banks -- and much of the debt hidden all of these years is coming out into the open. If the 'wakeup call' is loud enough, which it probably will be, the BIS will have popped the Japanese bubble that has been in stasis for nearly 10 years.

I think we can conclude that the Japanese leaders have tapped most of their people's savings already, during the last 10 years. Perhaps the Japanese are now net debtors, but won't admit it.

I wonder -- where is the threat to the US dollar going to come from? Where is the foreign economic powerhouse? Germany? It sure is hard to figure out why the US dollar will continue to go down when there are no clear major competitors.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:00 - ID#219363)
I heard a story similar to what's going on with the equities right now when I was at the broker's place today. I was swapping an eagle for silver coins to give away as Christmas presents and some the guys were telling me about the historic 800$US and above gold prices. Said that someone they knew had bought in early and continued to buy all the way to the top, but he didn't get out in time. The only thing I can think of that could be worse than missing the boat is holding all the tickets while it sank. If he had only gotten out when it hit 800$US, or 700$US, or 600$US, he would have made a killing. Instead, he pushed it to the wall. Panic first.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:04 - ID#390337)
@savage - No problem.
How about a little Iraq-WJC-gold connection?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:08 - ID#224230)
1929 and all that - proving we've understood the lessons
Perhaps Greenspan merely wishes to prove that they've learned the lessons of 1929 and know how to BEAT THE SYSTEM. i.e. defy what we Kitcoites here would call the laws of nature. Business Cycles etc.

He thinks he can outwit human nature with intellectual powers. And the ONLY WAY to really find out is to put the psoposition to the test and play the game and take a mega-gamble with the world economy.

In Greenspan's HEART he probably still believes in Gold, but in his head he feels compelled to try to advance the cause - so to speak - and prove that depressions can never happen again because we're too smart to let them. Which is a worthy cause in some respects.

Because if he is right and we as a species have discovered how to do the economic equivalent of driving Dad's car right over a cliff  la Roadrunner cartoon, only to reverse it in mid air.... He'd get a Nobel Prize or something better ... ( a night with Pamela Anderson??

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:11 - ID#210282)
Biotech stocks?
jims: Are you serious? If you have inside information that you trust, you probably can't lose. But -- please remember what happened Oct 97, when we had a major meltdown in SEAsia. You are right about gold -- lousy investment during Oct 97. But equities in SEAsia were even more lousy. And -- the reason that Gold went down then, IMHO, was because alot of people ( and countries ) were down to empty pockets -- and were forced to sell their gold as a last resort. The Asians ( and the Europeans ) are far more astute about the need for Gold than the average American.

I think you will do far better waiting for the next correction, and buying something near the bottom, rather than biotech stocks right now. A nimble investor could have made 70% or more in gold stocks had he/she bought the bottom a few months ago. Wouldn't you consider this type of bottom buying is a more sure thing than whether some biotech stock is so strong it can weather a Mexico or Brazil collapse? If you are so sure about your Biotech stock, why not buy it at the bottom of the next correction instead?

What I find amusing is that gold equities get pulled down in the suction with other equities -- by those who apparently don't know any better. Then the shrewd long term investors buy gold stocks at rock bottom bargain prices. People like George Soros or Warren Buffett buy the whole gold mine. It will happen again, and again, until there is much less interest in equities than there is now. And -- until those who are forced to sell their gold have all done so.

I will wait on the sidelines. Much safer that way. The real buy and hold gold bull will be after the debt deflation has ended -- you are right about that.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:11 - ID#287279)
From Australia's Business Review Weekly magazine, November 23, 1998:
Deflation outlook prompts Merrill Lynch to support fixed interest
By Tim Treadgold

For the past 20 years inflation was the bogeyman of investors. Now the talk is about deflation. The difference can be quite alarming, because while inflation debases currencies and equities, deflation destroys prices and makes people feel poorer. Merrill Lynch, one of the world's biggest stockbroking firms, has reacted to the change by recommending that investors put 50% of their assets into fixed interest or bonds, 45% in shares, and the rest in cash. This is a dramatic change from previous advice, which has favored the equity end of the investment spectrum...

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:14 - ID#287377)
for anybody that's interested
The Kitco Gold Discussion Group is mentioned as a resource on page 34 of the January 1999 issue of DELL Horoscope in an article entitled "Preparing for the Year 2000 Computer Crisis".

Lurker 777
(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:16 - ID#317247)
jims: I will take that bet!
jims: Date: Sun Nov 22 1998 21:25 Dow 15000 before gold 385

I like your style! I bet you are a betting man. How about a small wager?
The amount: $10,000.00 ( or more ) US FRN
I say Gold will reach $385 before the DJIA closes above 15000.
Because of the imminent Y2K banking crises this wager is for one year time and if there is no winner by December 1,1999 all funds are to be returned to the original depositors. Funds to be deposited in a escrow account on or before December 1, 1998.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:17 - ID#225236)
"I wonder -- where is the threat to the US dollar going to come from? Where is the foreign economic powerhouse? Germany? It sure is hard to figure out why the US dollar will continue to go down when there are no clear major competitors."

We have found an enemy, and it is us ( US!? ) .

The biggest threat to the dollar is the dollar itself. What is it based on? People's faith. How do you measure faith? ( Do not know ) Is faith volatile? ( You bet ) .

Did anybody here try to trace the beginning of the fall of the Soviet Empire ( RIP ) ?

Around 1976 the Eastern European governments announced that due to their balancing the book problems, they would no longer be able to subsidize the prices of food commodities. It wasn't really a big deal. Nothing really has changed. The new element was the governments' admission that they were not omni-powerful. The mob started relentlessly purchasing anything they could think of. In weeks all stores and warehouses were emptied while some people attics were collapsing under weight of collected sugar, flour, grain, etc. All currencies plummeted. The producers ( such as farmers ) saw their products go up and prices and thought: if I do not sell my stuff this year and sell it next year, I will get twice us much for it. They did that and fulfilled their own prophecies. The rest is history.

The moral of this story: mobs faith is a terrible thing to loose. Now the Mob USA is at the peak of its faith in government. After all, the government can do all of the following:

- Feed old morons ( Meals on Wheels, Social Security, Medicare )

- Feed young morons ( welfare )

- Feed morons kids to make sure that morons have more kids and vote for Clinton ( AFDC, Clinton )

- Keep stupid companies in business ( Amtrak )

- Keep stocks up ( all indexes )

- Kick asses of small assorted countries ( Iraq, Yugoslavia )

- Bail out stupid Hedge funds

- Kick asses of countries that US owes money to ( Japan )

- Kick asses of anybody that does not like the US status quo ( Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc )

As soon as it becomes clear that the government of the US of A is not GOD ( or as soon as the government stops performing in even one category on the list above ) , mobs faith will evaporate. It does not matter what causes it ( Y2K, stock market crash, political challenge from abroad, economical challenge from abroad, military challenge from abroad, etc ) , the result will be the same: THE MOB WILL PANIC.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:28 - ID#219363)
Agree with you that sidelines is the best place to be. If deflationary forces are affecting the US, then cash will remain king, and gold could still stay in the dump for a long time, even lower than now. But if cash is king and the dollar is sitting way up there, the question then becomes, which cash do we hold ? The dollar has downside potential.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:28 - ID#266105)

Crystal Ball-- is that kudos or insult.

Who Cares?
(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:31 - ID#242328)
Lurker777 Makes A Bad Bet On Gold
I sure wouldn't bet on gold to hit $385.

In a deflationary collapse, gold is likely to fall *less* quickly than
the DOW.

Meaning we may not see $385 even though gold may be appreciating
at 2-3-4 times the DOW.

If you really want to bet, use some other unit of measure. Perhaps
the dmark.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:32 - ID#373403)
Is it my imagination or does the BIS building resemble a stack of gold coins?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:44 - ID#225236)
Deflation @EVERYBODY
Deflation is not possible in a socialist economy such as the US. Thanks to idiocies such as welfare, Social Security, and their Cost-Of-Living increases, any significant deflationary dip will quickly change into hyper-inflation.

- Almost 50% of working adults are employed in the governent. Government GROWS ( not shrinks ) in times of trouble. Government parasites get paid ( inflation or not ) - this money will be spent; deflation or not. If not enough money gets collected through taxes, start the printing presses

- 80% of the US budgets is spent on entitlements. This money will be spent ; deflation or not. If not enough money gets collected through taxes, start the printing presses.

- Allowing deflation take course without doing ANYTHING about it is against the principles of a socialist government and can result in loss of faith of the mob ( see my previous post ) . Socialist government has to do SOMETHING and the only SOMETHING they can do is to turn the printing presses on. ( or ( nowadays ) magically "expand reserves" through intrest rate decreses ) .

Lurker 777
(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:47 - ID#317247)
Who Cares
Unfortunitly I do not have a bet yet but it is still OPEN. I know you may feel like this is like taking candy from a baby BUT I am a grown man and am in search of a little excitement in life. Please humor me and take the BAD bet. YES!

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:47 - ID#287377)
My apologies if anyone already posted this today


By JOHN DIZARD ( New York Post, Sunday, 11/22/98 )

THE "Y2K problem" - the need to reprogram computers to correctly recognize and store dates after the turn of the century - is generating a lot of overtime for the consultants whose predecessors created the problem in the first place. Now it seems that Y2K is helping to reignite speculative demand for gold. Sorry, goldbugs, I mean "investment demand."
Some of this has been reflected in sales of gold coins. People out there in the country across the Hudson are buying them at an all time record rate. In the third quarter alone, sales of coins in the United States were up to 772,000 ounces, a 170 percent increase over the third quarter of 1997. Presumably they get stored next to the assault rifles and canned goods that will see their owners through the financial market turmoil and general social disruption. Who knows? Maybe they'll be laughing at us, just before they pull the triggers. But the prospect of millenarian mayhem may be causing a bizarre imbalance in the gold pit of the Comex exchange downtown. The gold option contract with the largest open interest on the exchange is the December 1999 call, specifically the 390 call. A call contract gives the owner, in return for a premium, the right, but not the obligation, to take delivery of a commodity, in this case 100 ounces of gold. The 390 call lets those owners acquire gold at a price of $390 an ounce, whatever the spot price is at that time. This promise is backed up by the AAA rating of the Commodity Exchange, Inc., which the millenarians might not believe will survive the New Year. The December 1999 call will expire on the second Friday in November of the year. As of Nov. 18, the total amount of gold call options for that 390 contract was over 3,200,000 ounces, which is over 90 tonnes of gold. The total gold calls for the whole month is over 180 tonnes. That's a lot of gold. To put that position in context, the January 1999 call options total a little over 660,000 ounces, or about 20 tonnes. Said one gold trader on the Comex floor, "If gold comes in $30 an ounce better ( it closed Friday at $296.05 spot ) it's going to be a T-Rex. Then it would be unhedgeable. The whole thing is weird. The date is all wrong. The size is all wrong. It looks random, erroneous." By "unhedgeable," our trader means that it would not be practical to lay off the risk on other gold market participants. When market makers on the floor of the exchange sell calls, they don't plan to go into their private vault and take out 100 ounce gold bars and hand them over to you if the price moves in your favor. They buy some call options or futures on their own from other dealers or exchanges who can get the gold from mines or central banks who have the physical gold to sell. But the Dec 1999 calls are such a big, odd position that it would be difficult to lay off the risk. Our trader has heard the talk that this position has been built up by individuals who are betting on Y2K problems. But he's skeptical. "Maybe 10 percent of the volume on this exchange represents retail, on average. This is a professional market, not a retail market. This just doesn't make sense."
Because the Y2K position doesn't "make sense," right now it's created a lot of inefficiencies in the pricing of gold options before and after the Dec 99s. And those inefficiencies are the source of profit for the floor traders. By the way, for their own account, many if not most of them are dubious about gold as an investment. "It's been the worst investment in the universe," says our trader. "The cash costs of mining keep dropping, and the supply goes up." So where's the possibility of $390 gold? Do the Y2K paranoids know something? Or is it just a small ring of buyers. There is some talk that this is a very small group doing this. "This isn't going away," says the trader. "It's going to get bigger and it could become a magnetic issue."

(Sun Nov 22 1998 22:50 - ID#219363)
Gas Prices Continue To Spiral
CAMARILLO, Calif. ( AP ) -- Pump prices nationwide dropped more than a penny a gallon during the past two weeks, with a majority of gasoline stations selling regular grade gas under a dollar per gallon on the eve of the Thanksgiving holiday travel period, an industry analyst said Sunday. The average price of gasoline, including all grades and taxes, was $1.0731 a gallon, according to Friday's Lundberg Survey of 10,000 stations nationwide. That represents a 1.28-cent drop from the $1.0859 average Nov. 6. "Very low crude oil prices have been working their way through to the gas pump, and the economic problems elsewhere, especially in Asia, has created a glut of oil," said Trilby Lundberg, publisher of the Lundberg Survey. "Economic deprivation in various countries of the world translates to an oil glut and brought a Thanksgiving bonanza in the form of low gas prices for American motorists," she said.

Crystal Ball
(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:02 - ID#287377)
@ 2BR02B
You wrote: Crystal Ball-- is that kudos or insult.

Just thought Mike Sheller ( resident KITCO astrologer ) and others might be interested. Full text could be made available if so desired. Topics touched upon in the article include: "Are We Toast in 2000?", "How It All Came About", "A Small Taste of the Future", "Multiply by a Gadzillion", "Are We Being Alarmist?", "Like an Enemy Attack", "The Sue-Me, Sue-You Blues", "How Will the Government React?", and "The Peril and the Promise."

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:03 - ID#210282)
Deflation -- or inflation due to devalued US dollar?
petronius, Envy: I know AG is good at what he does, but when you are balancing on the fence a slight miscalculation can be very painful. My assessment is that it is nearly impossible for AG et all to chart a course where either inflation or deflation will not rise up and bite us. If he inflates the dollar too fast, he may just feed the US market bubble. If he does not inflate the dollar fast enough, the liquidity problems are likely to tilt us over into big time deflation.

So -- I will just continue to watch the US dollar, and the price of gold, among other things. Right now the pendulum seems to be shifting toward deflation. It will be interesting to see whether AG can inflate the dollar fast enough -- but not too fast ( whatever that is ) .

I get the shivers just thinking about the day when foreign investors realize that the US is no longer the best place for their money. So far, it seems economic uncertainty in other countries is still giving the US dollar a boost, despite its sudden recent drop and partial recovery. When the day of reckoning comes for the US dollar because there are greener pastures in other currencies, AG had better be wearing his superman suit. Could be like 1987 all over again, dollar-wise. Don't think the equity markets will recover as quickly though.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:03 - ID#219363)
Dow Creeps Toward 10,000 Mark
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- The stock market has risen so far so fast that it may sound greedy and ungrateful to be talking about more. And yet, even though the Dow Jones industrial average has jumped 1,700 points in about six weeks to 9,159.55, it's hard not to notice that 10,000 isn't that far away. Still, many commentators, even upbeat ones such as Abby Joseph Cohen of Goldman Sachs & Co. and Jeff Applegate of Lehman Brothers, mostly avoid mention of the "10,000-point question." Don't count on it, or at least not until well into 1999, they say. That hasn't stopped Joe Battipaglia, a Gruntal & Co. analyst and one of Wall Street's biggest bulls, from charging ahead. "Ten thousand is right around the corner as far as I'm concerned. There will be those who look at 10,000 from here as too much too soon, but I'm not willing to make that call after watching the Dow's ( huge rally ) from the bottom."

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:08 - ID#252391)
Lucker 777 you make your bets I'll make mine
Breakouts in Asia, tonight, accelerating uptrends in the S&P - this is the picture. You make your bets I'll make mine. I only put the question: Dow 10,000 before gold $315? Philisophically we favor the two ozs of gold to the three shares of Yahoo, but we see the financial power and strenght of the "mob" taking valuations to even more rediculous extremns and believe it more likely to continue to the 10,000 target than a mere 5% rally in the cornerstone asset of our mind set. They, the mob, are absurd; we are right? There is little arquement which asset group is showing the greater relative strenght, currently, and for the last 16 years. As I said earlier the only arguement the stock market bears have is declineing volumn and soon an over bought situation.

Gold is off 20 cents

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:09 - ID#390337)
Scene I  Wag This, Baby.

The aging KH-11 spy satellite had been decommissioned for 15 years. It had survived 54,000 orbits, 30 Leonid sand storms and countless solar mozels  flares. Its expected orbital decay had it splashing into the Indian ocean in 1985, but something went wrong with the custom gallium-arsenide circuitry developed my Matshushita electronics in Japan. NORAD had been tracking it on its dead bird list and had long since performed IR life-reading scans on it. It was just orbit trash. Not even James Carville waving a wad of tens in front of it could wake up this bad boy. Nothing to worry about.

WJC needed a thing. No, not a sweet young one. He needed a hook, a pitch, a wag the dog. He once howled at the screening of Wag the Dog. Amateurs! Ill show you how its done. He got on the phone with NotSoBright and proceeded to dictate a new plan to shake loose the media attention on his problem.

The special load of SLCMs cradled in their graphite/boron/epoxy cocoon were loaded on board at Diego Del Fuego under the heat of the equitorial sun. Marvels of miniturization, they are the ultimate in Sharper Image catalogue weapons. They can be flown by preprogrammed GPS flight plans or even by remote pilot flight controls. They got your itty-bitty turbofans. They got your radar/IR stealth features. They are totally Nintendo.

Saddam was between a rock in a hard place. He couldnt unload his crude on the open market and he needed cash. No ATM was available for the amounts that he needed. He needed the big stuff, major deneroes. With the Islamic nations talking about a new standard of exchange his worries were But this old ***** trader needed a buyer. Who needs my oil? Who needs my oil? He would wail. Nobody would take it for fear of UN reprisals. All those ships in the No-fly-zones monitor all tanker traffic outside of my ports. Even if I could find a buyer how would I get it out?

End of scene I

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:12 - ID#431200)
Kaplan URL

I would like to get the Kaplan URL .Thanks.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:13 - ID#228128)
I was thinking perhaps the BIS was trying to force Japan to dump US treasuries in order to tank the US dollar. It does seem like they are pushing up on a string however.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:17 - ID#219363)
Asia has been in an uptrend for the past few weeks, I'll give you that. I'll still bet you 20$US that the Nikkei doesn't end higher by close of business Monday. The Asian markets have been up, but they haven't moved lower to test recent lows, so I wouldn't bet on them. The long term trend has been down, and one rally doesn't mean the bear is over by any means.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:18 - ID#210282)
Market blowoff coming up?
jims: Perhaps we haven't had our market blowoff yet -- a la 1929. I remember looking at the rate of change of the DOW -- then and now -- and concluding that the final frenzy hadn't happened yet. Not until the current rate of DOW rise matches the 1929 one. You may be right -- DOW 10,000 coming up before gold peaks above 325 or so.

But -- I for one will not be riding the DOW wave up, because the wave may break abruptly. I will keep most of my powder dry.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:27 - ID#210282)
Japan enticed to dump US treasuries?
IDT: Good point. The BIS has always been an antagonist of the US and the IMF. What do you think the BIS thinks about the EURO? Given the massive entitlements/welfare and government debts in Germany and France, they probably think as little of the EURO as they do of the US dollar.

Perhaps the BIS was trying to encourage Japan to finally put their ship in order, so that all of those Yen carry trades would flood the other way, and force the world to go on a non-US dollar belt-tightening diet. The idea being that a new ( gold-based ) world currency is most likely to come from Asia.

I suspect the BIS is best thought of being in favor of strong, gold-backed currencies, rather than being against the US dollar per se.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:30 - ID#335379)
Hello Petronis: @deflation vs socialism, Hmmmmmmm....
Hyper inflation of Dollars?, after a deflation attempt.
And won't the ensuing hyper-inflation cause people to need gobs and gobs of the green paper? And if so will they not lose faith and purchasing power almost imedeatly? and thus deflation will follow on after this short iregularity?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:33 - ID#225369)
Speaking of timing and greed,I bought a couple mapleleafs last week and I noticed the dates on two of them were 1980,and 1979.You can only imagine what went through my mind as I examined them.Whether or not they advance in value or I give them as gifts to my children is of no consequence.I bought them so as to testify once again that I would rather own them than I would own the dollars I gave the dealer for them.It's absolutely a matter of preference.I did ,however,make more money when I didn't worry about how money is made.

P.S.: I'm looking to buy that piece of land in the country I've always wanted----even more so now------or maybe that condo in Dallas I've always wanted.Yeeeeeeh...........that's the ticket.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:33 - ID#335379)
Pardon me, that's Petronius!

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:36 - ID#219363)
Long Shot
Is it time to buy the ruble ?

@JTF: You and I are thinking along the same lines. AG does have his work cut out for him. Deflation or inflation, or stasis right in the middle if the balls are juggled correctly. Agree that when the ball drops and foreign folks head for the exits in a big way, it'll be all over. That's when I want to be holding anything but USA.

Lurker 777
(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:36 - ID#317247)
I think I must of misread you. I just wanted to see your conviction of your words Dow 15000 before gold 385. I was proposing a friendly wager between men of honor. I understand if you do not want to take the wager. I was looking for a little fun and excitement. Now where is that fun loving Who Cares?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:38 - ID#210282)
G'Nite all! Upover and downunder.
All: Spent a beautiful day at our little boathouse about 25 miles outside town. Saw the milky way ---

Please -- if you can do so, get a little R and R and go to where the skies are clear.

The sheer immenseness of the night sky will convince you that we cannot be alone. There must be intelligent life in the Universe, even if there is little to be found on Earth.

Would be nice if we could get a little guidance -- from time to time.

Hard to travel to the stars if your pockets are empty.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:43 - ID#333126)
news for equity bears
too early to herald a new stock dawn

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:46 - ID#219363)
Like Lurker 777 my offer for a wager of 20$US against a higher close on the Nikkei by close of business on Monday was just a friendly bet between men of honor. Oh wait, no it wasn't, the Nikkei is closed on Monday. I only bet on things when the odds are on my side.

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:46 - ID#333126)
call for dissolving parliament in Japan

how would this affect their massive monetary/financial restructuring plan?

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:54 - ID#432223)
Dollar being dethroned
Early Riser: I agree. I'm in the camp that believes the dollar is in the early stages of being dethroned. The ECU which will begin to replace the currencies of 15 Euro countries on Jan1, 1999 is bearish for the dollar. The Euro Central Bank is being established with capital of 50 BillionECU or aprox. US$55 Billion in gold and foreign currency ( mainly dollars ) . The EU collectively have about US$400 billion and since they're a reserve currency competing against the dollar, it's pretty well understood they will be unloading a lot. The EU economy as a whole is aprox. 15% bigger than the US's. A big difference is that they run about a $90 billion surplus as opposed to our $150 billion deficit ( real deficit without stealing money from Social Security Fund ) . It's true that most 80% of international accounting is done in dollars but that can easily change. Think of this: One of the main reasons there has been so little inflation in the US is that since the early/mid 80s we've been exporting hundreds of billions of dollars and getting back real goods in exchange. Now that our trade deficit has been soaring, our real deficit over $150 Billion and out nations debt into the trillions, that trend is changing. The dollar will continue to devalue and we'll begin getting back dollars in exchange for the real wealth currently in the US. Inflation could then begin to skyrocket and that would trigger a panic out of dollars and into hard assets and specifically gold, silver and platinum. It's been a long while since we've had inflation in this country and it sure beats a nasty deflation. I'm watching the 30 year interest rate as a baromiter. It usually follows gold very closely. When gold made its recent bottom in late August, treasury rates quickly followed and are now in an uptrend. I believe the gold bull has begun. IMO

(Sun Nov 22 1998 23:55 - ID#219363)
Interesting transaction at the broker's place today. When I traded the gold for the silver coins, it went down as a trade and not as a cash purchase. It seemed important, any ideas ? Do you not have to pay a tax on an even trade of precious metals ? Looking into a little country land myself, running about 750$US/acre here in the mountains. Probably get cheaper if I wait long enough.