Very quiet hereabouts

Everybody must be sleeping off the feast

Yeah, mon

soon come mon

Plop, plop. Fizz, fizz. ..... :- ) )

Earl
Your "Power in the hands of the timid is a waste of valuable resources. " was redolent of Jean Paul Getty's
"The meek shall inherit the earth but not the mineral rights."
Is your last name Getty? As in Getty Gold? or Getty Generators? Getty Grub?

How 'bout: Getty while the getting is good????

Envy -

Way cool image!
What software did you use to render this spender?
I vote for its official adoption as Kitco Logo Maximus
The part about the reason is stretching things a bit though, yes?
We do tend to fly from reason on occasion in these pages
Everybody, 'cept me, that is..

Righty O

THE Priest -

I have been making and looking at charts for more than a decade - it is what I do for a living.

I have yet to find anything of significance in your charts
Too many lines and squiggles clog up the picture
Your Placer Dome chart is dire indeey though
Looks ready for a big tumble, no?
I hope you are not seeing pretty portends in those busy pictures
For, alas, it all looks down to me

I am not trying to be unpleasant or critical
I do not trade by charts
But rather look to them to confirm other info
A chart is a single arrow in the quiver
Don't forget to use the rest of 'em.

If charts told us the truth
All would be rich
As all have the same charts
Pictures do not a market make
And often hide the truth buried within
Use your charts, but put more faith
In the collected words on these pages
Although there are permabulls and permabears everywhere
Enough truth gets through this site
To make you far better informed
Than the vast percentage of investors flying blind

I am not trying to discourage you
And I welcome your input
I just am having some trouble with your charts

That's all

OK

"We need another 5000 frequent flyer points to take that trip," said the missus. "Hey Nick, you know Qantas has a wine club. Why don't we buy another $500 worth of wine??"

Not just a pretty face, my missus. After much deep thought ( about 2 nonoseconds ) I replied, "What an excellent idea!!"

If Kitco actually works in Jan. 2000 ( a very BIG IF ) and I am not posting, please send a search party down to my cellar.

Cheers@Y2K-Prepared-R-Us

nanosecond=one billionth of a second
brain too slow for fingers
.....................
Those of you Canamerkans who wait up with baited breath to see how the Aussie gold market traded, so you can make wise, well-informed investment decisions--GO BACK TO SLEEP--because bugger-all happened today. Normandy covers $650,000,000 worth of forward sales so will make heap-big-dough on POG rise and have big cash kitty and what happens??? Down one cent on HUGE volume. The riskless wonders selling to the go getters?? Normandy is now an even BETTER proposition!! Still, I ain't buyin' till the fat lady makes up her mind.
..............
Made a nice 20% one-day profit on some bank puts today. Sometimes the market-makers have hangovers and set their prices wrong--like they did yesterday with ANZ and little market watchers like mois jump in to punish any mistakes. They wised up this AM and I took a quick bird-in-hand. Now will try to buy em back cheaper. Holding NAB for the big plunge.

I've been thinking your question over. When I have a good answer, I'll post it.

@chas & ALBERICH Thanks for the notes of appreciation.

oleman . . Thu, Nov 26, 11:50PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

oilservices are like banks in '90 and drugs in '93. Takes faith, guts, and $$ to hang on, but reward will be large indeed.



oleman . . Thu, Nov 26, 11:53PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

barb: Yup. I dont bottom fish stocks. But I DO bottom fish an industry. We have First Union in family trust from '90, MRK from '93. When an industry that MUST survive if modern society survives, yoou gotta nibble when the entire industry is on the floor. TDW selling at about 5X, virtually NO debt, biggest fleet in the WORLD, off about 2/3 from its top. Nobody buyin it here but rich fokes.: )



oleman . . Thu, Nov 26, 11:55PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

Course that's who buys EVERYTHING when its so low common fokes wont touch it.: )



oleman . . Thu, Nov 26, 11:57PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

In '73-'74 I lost about 2/3 of all the extra money I had been able to save during my first 10 yrs of working. Had stuff like Polaroid, PG, XRX, etc. some of my high flyers lost 90% during that yr and a half. By the time we hit bottom, I had sold ALL my stocks. Then I read something in the WSJ that changed my life. more..............



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:00AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

Nixon esited on 8/4/74, leaving us in the hands of the Great Leslie King, JR., aka Jerry Ford. He chose as VP, one Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, the richest man who ever filed a financial disclosure statement to enter public office. His disclosure was dated 9/30/74, a day or 2 before the BOTTOM of the worst bear market of a half century. more........



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:06AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

Ol' Nellie had 4 trust funds. The largest was about $100 million. At the exact bottom of the worst bear since the 30's, he had only about $2 mil cash in that big trust. ALL the rest was in common stocks. And there were only NINE stocks. I dont think I remember all 9, but he had XON,CHV,MRH,DD,MMM, AND 4 MORE BIG dow STOCKS. At the bottom, when I and all the other peons had sold out and turned what was left into cash, Rocky had been buying ALL THE WAY down. By the time the bottom was put in he had only about 2% cash and 98% stocks. I had 100% cash and NO stocks.Yessir, I learned sumpin that day.: )



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:08AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

Course he was even more prudent with the kids' trust. Out of about $10 million, he had only about $70 THOUSAND in cash. The rest in only SEVEN Dow stocks. moral: watch what the rich do and DO IT!!



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:09AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

temple: Shoulda knowed you'd be ahead of me on that one.: ) Yessir!



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:11AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

Now, class, the test tonite consists of only ONE question. Based only on what I reported above, how do we KNOW that Rocky was buying on the way down? Not a trick. The answer IS in what I've written. Clearly there......cummon....



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:14AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

The answer is so simple, you guys gonna kick yourselves for not gettin it immediately.: )



temple . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:15AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

'cause he was loaded ... and he had the courage to die with his boots off and make Happy unhappy?



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:15AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

2 minutes and i gotta give the answer and turn in. 2 minutes.................



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:16AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

temple: ) : ) : )



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:16AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

temp: He didn't even need viagra.: )



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:19AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

The answer is in the CASH! If he'd been selling on the way down like us losers, he'da been mostly or all cash like us losers. The only way he coulda been all in stocks and only a pittance of cash was to have been buying what I was selling. You were right temple. Rocky and his pals were buying everything us losers were panicking out of. Course he had been selling it to us on the way up to buile up the cash to buy the bottom. Such is life.: ) ............beddy-bye



oleman . . Fri, Nov 27, 0:21AM CST ( -0600 GMT )

btw: I sold some stocks Fri. Not a lot, but some high flyers. Still long, but starting the cash bu ildup, so I can pull a "Rocky" next summer.: ) gone........

I believe you that this relationship may be holding up, but I just don't "believe" that there is a real link.

For instance I can believe that there is a relationship between the price of copper and the price of silver, as I understand it these two metals are mined together.

I could even believe a linkage between the price of oil and the price of wheat as oil is needed to make the fertilizers and run the agricultureal equepment.

But I have trouble believing that there is a link between oil and gold. There may be an coincidental relationship, but I don't think you can predict the price of either by watching the price of the other. Even if the chart show a relationship since 1950.

However, I have been at Sharefins site and a place called the privateer and I have been reading the opinions of someone who is apparently well respected and he stresses a very real linkage between the price of oil and the US$, so, it is starting to look like I am wrong due to ignorance of the intracacies of world economics.

Still until I understand these thing better, the oil/gold argument seems to me like so: Every Monday I see a cat. For years and years. Never on any other day, just monday. Today, I saw a cat, does that mean it's monday?

Also, recognize that I want gold to go up, and I see oil going down, I am going to go to some effort to believe that there is no connection.

http://caq.com/caq59/CAQ59GlobalSnoop.html

mozel -- Thanks. I'll be on the lookout for it.

For insulated exterior stud walls, what would be the ideal product for the interior vapor barrier?
I understand that exterior house wrap purpose is to stop drafts from leaking into a house. Is this correct?

For an open beam ceiling spanned by plywood ( or OSB ) elements that sandwich light beams and insulation aandno open spaces in the voids for air circulation can the interior moisture be safely carried off through operable skylight vents before damage to the roof?

The type of insulation being considered is encapsulated glass fiber.

I appreciate that half of this statement doesn't "mean" anything. But the esoteric literature POV is that Gold is a form of "concretised energy". So is gold. If one thinks of them in those terms ( easier in oil's case, admittedly ) one might gain some insight after a few glasses of wine ! then one has to ask...what events or change in human perception might affect the way we value them.

http://caq.com/caq59/CAQ59GlobalSnoop.html

Just thought I'd give ECHELON employees something to do!!

Gold is "concretised energy" - so is Oil - is what I meant to put !

that article...ya just gotta love it...bbl...thud...

Excellent find, sir. Always interested to hear what oleman has to say. Has he made any comments on Gold? Happy T-day plus one, off to take a Pepcid AC.

I am really embarassed, but what are these?

stocks in a small gold mining company?

Perhaps I should explain what I am doing here.

I had some "discretionary" money.

I believed that gold was going to go up, alot.

At the time, options seemed to be the best way to make a profit.

Still, I burned up the first $1000 buying 3 1oz Krugerrands. ( this was a while ago )

I needed a new computer, my wife authorized a purchase price of $1400,

I found one for $400. Computers, options, ham radio, it's all the same budget.

The options seemed speculative and risky, and maybe a bit of fun.

Stocks in a mining company probably would be more prudent, but probably less exciting? There is that gearing or leverage that makes this a really neat game, new to my experiance, a bit expensive, but not so bad.

If I were to close out my options right now, I would lose $240. But if I had bought a $1400 computer, it would have depreciated at least that much. And after a year, which is how long till these options expire, it would have easily lost $1000 value.

I am really just having fun with this stuff. If I ever get serious about investing, I think I will strongly consider stocks in whatever industry I think is going to do well.

By the standards of some of you, I know I am really small time. But as this is my entertainment for the year, I am learning as much about this as possible. It is fun every day to check nymex.com and see what og 12 99 c 390 setteled for. Some of my co-workers spend a tremendous amount of time thinking and reading or watching about football. They know all the important players, all the likely stratagies. They try to predict what will happen. Some of them bet money on the results, and occasionaly make a bit of a profit. This is the energy that I am devoting to learning about gold and options and finance and economics. Occasionally they ask me about football or the lottery or such. I say I don't gamble. In my group of peers, the kind of gambling I do would not be understood. But this game, is so much larger, the field is the entire world, the stakes are incaculable, and the game runs every business day of the year. And in a very small way, I get to participate. It's a better game and the odds of a return are probably at least as good as playing the state lottery.

I know that some of you are in the gold business or that some of you have large percentages of your money involved. I know that to the rest of you this is very serious. I hope that I am still welcome here.

For Thursday 26 Nov calculated from data published in Today's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
$LIBOR-------------5.03--------------5.25-------------5.12-----------------5.12

Mean GoldLR------4.24---------------4.23-------------3.86-----------------3.57
Gold Lease Rate---0.79---------------1.02-------------1.26-----------------1.55
( Change ) ------ ( + 0.02 ) ------- ( - 0.02 ) ------- ( - 0.01 ) ----------- ( - 0.01 )

Silver Lend Rate----4.40--------------3.70-------------2.70-----------------2.45
Silver Lease Rate---0.63--------------1.55--------------2.42-----------------2.67
( Change ) --------- ( 0.00 ) -------- ( 0.00 ) -------- ( 0.00 ) ----------- ( 0.00 )
$LIBOR = BBA London rate fixed at 11am
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild
Lease Rate = $LIBOR minus Lending Rate .
( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day.

Can be done with any rendering software that does ray tracing, but that particular image was done in Bryce 3D, a very inexpensive tool you can pick up at any software shop. I think it runs about 150$US or so if memory serves. Easy to use. How easy to use ? Real easy. Here's a pic I put together in about 15 minutes. Of course, it took over half an hour to render on my little laptop once it was all there. It's pretty CPU intensive stuff. Done with Bryce 3D, Photoshop and Illustrator. Buy Some Gold.

With all the negatives that forced Greenspan to drop rates in a rapid fashion quite visable, even to the less knowledgeable; I have one quess that says; investors are blinded by greed, just as was the case when AG mentioned Irrational Exuberance. The second quess concerns unsavory deeds by monied interest for their own account.
After some thought I believe that my second quess has more validity.

I love that. But I think I will sell the options sometime in April.

If we are going to have computer problems they will have shown up by then. If world economics is going to favor gold, it might show up by then.

If not then I will take a loss, but there should still be some time value left on them, and maybe I will have enough left getting out to play another hand.

I still think it was a good trade, but I am starting to realize that things are just a bit more complicated than I once thought.

I think I will go find out how much it costs to take delivery on futures contracts on beans and rice.

I have been reading 10-k and 10-q reports of companies on the SEC's Edgar system.

this y2k thing, this looks like it might really suck.

I've not used the product but probably will when I finally get around to building my next home. It has some intriguing properties for insulation without the use of a vapor barrier - it is it's own. Plus, Bart will be pleased about one thing with this post - it is a Canadian Co. They can use the business. You can find them at http:\\www.icynene.com

Oleman did not mentioned gold tonight. He did say was that he was easing into oil service stocks. Will post if I see any reference to gold.

I am sure he checks out kitco, so maybe he will now that he sees us asking.

Aldebaran
I used to watch your eponymous star travel the Souther heavens, before the city light dimmed my sight.

There are many words for luck in Ingrish. But that is not suprising, as Ingrish is comprised many languages. The word "luck" is from "luc" in Middle Dutch meaning fortune. The word "fortune" is from the latin "fors" meaning chance. The word "chance" from old French, cheance, meaning to occur. The word "hazard" is from Arabic az-zahr, meaning the die. The word "opportunity" from "the wind that blows towards a safe harbour, and the word "fate" from the latin "fari" to speak like an oracle, in other words, an oratory.

Some say that the markets have the collective intelligence of a baby trout. Others, that gambling which way a stock/commodity/Whatever will move is like betting on which side of his jerkin the village idiot will dribble on today. Left? Or right?

Ever been at a dance, a hop, whatever you call it, playing elimination games? When each corner of the dance floor is allotted a suit in the pack of cards? You dance with your partner. The music stops. The MC draws a card, and everyone in the "hearts" quadrant sits down. The music starts again, and you dance once more with your partner. I hope you like to dance. ANOTHER card is drawn. Within 15 minutes, or so, there are only 4 out of 500 couples on the dancefloor. Are they skilled at dancing or are they lucky?
Would you follow one of the four couples to the end of your financial worth?
Do not forget, that the greatest of the Wall Street Traders can be richer than Crsus one day and in debt/in jail/suicided the next. Whatever you and your wife choose to do now, and I wish you good fortune, remember that you the real gold is within you: the flower of humanity. Use it carefully and wisely, life is so precious, so very very precious...


aurator@oratory.

good morning

Alley Loo, Ya?

I've always thought that TA is kinda like looking at yellow snow. I mean, it's a great thing to know where the huskies have been, but how does it help you know where they're going, father?

aurator_@_Ministry_of Coprolites___

That's it!
I'm firing the FX man.

aurator_@_Ministry_of_Coprolites

aurator
Days ago ya cited as follows:
...and the eagle flies with the dove...
is this to be continued with
...if ya cant be with the one ya love...
??

Without a doubt, it's conspiracy! We read all this bullish news about Gold and it just sits at $296 ( sorry now down to $295.40 ) .
Forget it fellas. Were all having ourselves on! Best go to the crap mkts or play two up, At least it.s over quicker

me

Fred@Vien!
Good to see you. Yup. LTOYW. By CSNY. How ya gowan brother? OK? Didja catch thems pearls aka coprolites I just threw? ( I am seeing how far you can stretch, mon Oz3n ami, in this bstard Ingrish languish i love so much. )

Didja know we have words of Malay, Hindi, Arabic, Swedish, Tamil, Persian, Inuit, Japanese, Chinese, Turkish etc etc in this polyglottal bstard Ingrish? And you, Fred, you have helped me see my native language in a refreshing light. I shall always think of you waltzing by the Danube on New Year's Day. Always.
In the meantime, you may like to contemplate the origin of these words:
coracle
amok
bungalow
schooner
cashew
terrapin
chocolate
barbecue
orange
tote
mammoth
albino
silk
wedding
cot
tsunami
pistol
rug
yoghurt
Not one of these words is from the Romance or Germanic languages. And each is from a different dialect or languish..

love the one your with! ( :+ ) ) you just dated yourself

I'll only fire your from your cannon, if you're wearing strange underwear. :- )

( our language is rather incomplete. one might say it is replete with incompleteness. )

THE priest

My thingers are getting fatter, I mean

I'll only fire you from your canon...

London stocks are not open today, I notice. Is the Comex open on Friday. I notice globex for the metals seems down. Maybe the decline in gold can be attributed to lack of interest.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981127/fe.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_company_file/newsid_223000/223004.stm

Ladies and gents, the news on gold seems bad in a way but hearken to the following story.

A family had twin boys whose only
resemblance to each other was their
looks. If one felt it was too hot, the
other thought it was too cold.
If one said the TV was too loud, the
other claimed the volume needed to
be turned up. Opposite in every way, one
was an eternal optimist, the
other a doom & gloom pessimist. Just to
see what would happen, on the
twins' birthday their father loaded the
pessimist's room with every
imaginable toy and game. The optimist's
room he loaded with horse
manure.

That night the father passed by the
pessimist's room and found him
sitting amid his new gifts crying
bitterly.

"Why are you crying?" the father asked.

"Because my friends will be jealous, I'll
have to read all these
instructions before I can do anything
with this stuff, I'll constantly
need batteries, and my toys will
eventually get broken." answered the
pessimist twin.

Passing the optimist twin's room, the
father found him dancing for joy
in the pile of manure. "What are you so
happy about?" he asked.

To which his optimist twin replied,
"There's got to be a pony in here
somewhere!"

Donald
We have no Luddammed FDIC in u *ealand. I have 2 bank a/cs. Most of my Bank Deposits are with a wholly owned subsidiary of Barclay's Bank. My family has been banking with Barclay's and its subsidiaries ( amongst others ) for 3 generations. Tomorrow is Sat. downunder. I can take no more than $2000 from an ATM in any 24 hour period. I cannot withdraw or transfer my balances for 56 hours. What would you or anyone do in these circumstances?

Getty Banking Crisis?

Laurus nobilator
Gem amongst the gems,you fooled me. Spent 10 min desperately searching my spanish compilation of abbreviacionados do inddernedd. No hub. Re-read your LTOYW. By CSNY. and grasped it. OK. Mentor mine. I have to pay you my undiminished admiration, Grandmaster of Words.

Contemplating on etymology.

Well, I've always said computers are as stupid as toasters. What's this * when I actually typed an omega, in a deft ( ish ) pun. where "z" is the last letter in our alpha beta, and omega is the last letter in the Greek. And, this stoopid html ( which i love to hate ) gives me an asterisk. Where's Obelisk?

nytolTeddo

How's Teddo?

Fred@Vie_Puzzle_solver!
My hat is off to you.
Salud!

Yours in stratigraphy
( the only law in archaeology, and therefore, perhaps in the human world )

aur@tor

Sharefin: Thnaks for posting oleman's comments! Can you also post the URL where you get these?

When oleman compares oil service stocks today to the baank stocks in 1990, time to sit up and take notice. The world may be able to survice without gold but it cannot survive without oil. The current glut of black gold will not last forever.

Barclays Bank

http://www.afr.com.au/content/981126/world/world3.html

http://www.marketwatch.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CnL4X0b8Ztdi3mtC5ndC&FQ=v%25reuter&Title=Headlines%20for%3A%20v%25reuter%0A

explains a lot.

Its a coverup and we are soon going to find out that the banking system is like a dead fish on the shoreline. SHINEY ON THE OUTSIDE WROTTEN ON THE INSIDE! First it was LTCB with over a billion of fraudulent loans and now Barclays. IMHO the major U.S. Banking System is in no better shape. Say goodbye fiat hello gold.

The Nation's Homepage


Pentagon exaggerated Y2K readiness

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon office responsible for safety and
security of U.S. nuclear stockpiles and emergency response in a nuclear
incident acknowledges falsifying readiness reports on the looming Year
2000 computer problem.

The Defense Special Weapons Agency ( DSWA ) claimed that three of
five so-called "mission critical" computer systems, essential to
conducting its most primary duties, were fully prepared to face the
computer crisis despite never conducting necessary testing, according
to a recent Defense Department Inspector General's Report.

The agency also neglected to develop required "contingency plans" that
would take effect if any "mission critical" systems fail.

"We recognize and agree with the findings of the Inspector Generals
report," says Capt. Allan Toole, who was recently assigned to correct
the Year 2000 ( Y2K ) problems at the DSWA, which was absorbed
into the newly created Defense Threat Reduction Agency on October
1.

He would not discuss the agency's previous false reporting on Y2K.

The Oct. 30 Inspector General report predicts that without corrective
action "The Defense Special Weapons Agency, as a part of the
Defense Threat Reduction Agency, may be unable to execute its
mission without undue disruption."

Toole predicts the agency's systems will be "100% in compliance by
April" 1999, despite not having established a complete inventory of the
work that remains to be done.

"I have a good feeling about Y2K in this agency," he says.

Y2K is a complex computing problem, causing computers to make
false calculations or fail entirely because the code or instructions written
into those systems are unable to comprehend dates beyond 1999.

Facing increasing pressure from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the White
House and Capitol Hill to correct the Y2K problem, "people may get a
little hasty or mistakenly" report something as ready, says Marvin
Langston, the Defense Department official in charge of the computer
problem.

"But I think there's very little real mischief going on here," he says.

Langston says he is confident that "a high level of end-to-end re-testing"
of all system beginning early next year will root out remaining problems.

But the Pentagon received a D-minus grade this week from the House
Government Reform and Oversight Committee, which has been issuing
Y2K progress grades to federal agencies for the past year.

"I am deeply concerned by this report," says Rep. Steve Horn,
R-Calif., the committee chairman. "There is zero tolerance for error
when you're dealing with the defense and safety of our nation."

"Does it come as any surprise to you that the Pentagon on occasion
fudges on the truth?" says Sen. Robert Bennett, R-Utah, co-chair of a
Senate Special Committee on Year 2000. "Look, the Pentagon has the
biggest problem simply because they are the biggest agency. I know
they are working very hard."

The federal government identifies 6,696 "mission critical" systems, of
which 2,581 are in the Defense Department.

As recently as a few weeks ago, Sen. Bennett was fond of noting that
officials of government and industry "all lie to us about Y2K" when
asked to testify about their level of readiness.

But heading into the Thanksgiving weekend he says one of the things he
is thankful for is that "there aren't as many people lying to us as there
used to be."

The newly created Defense Threat Reduction Agency, oversees the full
spectrum of weapons of mass destruction, including testing and
modeling, stockpiling as well as the export or transfer of high
technology. It also works with the FBI, CIA and State Department to
monitor weapons of mass destruction held by U.S. adversaries.

By M.J. Zuckerman, USA TODAY


Go to Washington news

Today is a short trading day and a thin one just about anything is possible. In a bull market like this the usual indicators rsi, stochastics etc are out the window. They can all get stretched behond belief. The next possible high will not come in until the SnP gets to 1240 - 1260.

Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 178.617 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 295.700 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 26 Nov 1998 ) : 178.770 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 26 Nov 1998 ) : 296.400 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 26 Nov 1998 ) : 2.9701 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 26 Nov 1998 ) : 4.9200 US Dollars

Bill Murphy says ( in the article you referenced ) to email him with any information you have that gold is cheap, and he will forward it to a big buyer. Anybody have Bill Murphy's email address?

I would suggest sending him the charts of Dow/gold, 30 year T-bonds/gold, and a chart of gold in constant dollars ( to show where it is relative to prices before the 1970's runup ) .

All: Here's a company that claims that they are the only company that makes 'user friendly' derivatives software for investment banks.

Even better -- they are looking for more employees!

I wonder -- just how many investment banks have been lured by the profit potential of fully automated derivatives investments -- just let someone else figure out the risk! And -- one can just buy the same software packages used by the pros -- such as LTCM.

One thing I have learned the hard way is -- never use anything you don't fully understand. No 'Black Boxes' for me!

http://www.scicomp.com/

Apparently the following exchange codes are required. Never would have guessed Alberta and Montreal.

You need to add a suffix to the symbol
-T for Toronto
-E for Alberta
-O for Montreal
-V for Vancouver

The Season is fast drawing near so I guess we should quickly get this show in gear! Auric - I just noticed your query of last night. I thought you were one of those 'downunder' - Are you heading this way? No date set yet, as I am still making my list and checking it twice. All those who may be interested in meeting some fellow Kitcoites for a bite to eat, some cheer and camradrie we are still open as to date and location suggestions. ALL who can make it to a meeting in the Toronto area are invited to attend. To be included on the list for updates as to time and location write me ( Stephen Mooney ) at: moonstep@idirect.com
Happy Holidays ALL!

Selby - You are one of the long time Toronto area regulars who many would love to meet. How about joining us?

Fans of Bill Murphy may want to check a thread on SI...In addition to Bill Murphy, Ole49r and others, long-time Kitcoites will recognize the names of such posters as Searle Sennett and George S. Cole. This is a general gold discussion thread under the old, old heading "Dutch Central Bank Sale Announcement Imminent?" Let's hope that immediate threat is past...

http://www3.techstocks.com/~wsapi/investor/subject-21259

General: Perhaps they are Y2K ready -- Do they just launch spontaneously?

Seriously, I would like to know what the Nuclear powers are doing not to be y2k ready -- namely that the missles will not to launch by themselves.

After that, I would be interested in knowing how many will work normally.

By the way, I have a good friend who is Navy, stationed in San Diego. He told me that a few years ago some nitwit launched a nuclear missle into the Harbor. Since I think you need at least two individuals to do this -- two keys, I think, turned at the same time - I guess you need two nitwits.

Good thing it didn't go off!

My uncle worked 20 years in one of the National Military defense labs. His favorite phrase went something like -- design your military device so that it will work with the lowest rank possible -- even under water, plugged into the wrong outlet. My only point is not to be negative, just to point out that multiple fail-safes must be built in to prevent accidents. And -- during y2k -- how many failsafes will be disabled?

On second thought, if we are worried about the US military and y2k, what about Russia, where they don't even seem to know what y2k is!

Forgot to mention it but Tom Byron is on the SI site too noted below. He was a Kitco founding poster or close to it.

Just let us know where and when and I'll be there if I'm here.

aldebaran--

leave the sophomoric's at home..ask, and someone will respond...
whine, and get slapped....

rj--were you in ocho rios whilst in jamaica? there is a most
splendiferous abode called the sans souci, very close to dunn's
falls....possibly the finest on the island...there are many
fine things on jamaica......ya mon.......the breh tambien!
did you take the night canoe trip to the feast and party up-river
from ocho? damn...what a lot of rum and hot bodies jammin to marley
& the breh....how about the rio grande raft float? awesome.....
small supply boats would pull up with ANYTHING---for the mind---
you wanted........red stripe.....rum....and breh........

squirrel--

read your post from yesterday.......thanks for apprising me of my
loss/profit status.....was having hell of a time getting the data
from edf & mann......you are the man...keep my acct current...and...
keep me posted!

earl--

chop-asaki my friend.....

cherokee!;....listen.to.your.eyes....they.are.screaming....

Donald: Couldn't resist! So - another German bank is on a buying spree. Guess Barclay's fortunes were drooping, and they needed a Viag ( ra ) boost!

Now -- this is the second major buyout by a German bank. Perhaps this gives a clue where the 'gold' is -- Germany, among a few other places? Not England, anyway. And, probably not the US either, when weighted for GNP.

If the financial disclosures reveal themselves slowly enough, the world economy may squeak by once again.

But -- it sure is worrisome, isn't it? Another big financial shock like the LTCM episode could bring everything crashing down. We can't assume gold will go up - either. A sudden deflationary collapse followed by inflation some time later is more likely. LTCM was the shot across the bow.

We talk about AG being able to prevent deflation by inflating the electronic money supply. If this was so easy, why did LTCM cause so much commotion?

I think these electronic money transactions accelerate the ability of the FEDs to control the money supply, but I suspect that any gain achieved is counterbalanced by a similar tendency to nearly 'instant' deflation.

Keep your powder dry -- or at least most of it.

Donald -- I know you do -- that was directed to others who are more apt to speculate than you.

All: WJC's worst nightmare has not ended yet. And -- apparently there is nothing in the statutes that prohibits IC investigation of WJC or his associates for criminal activity after he steps down from the presidency.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpwh0g.htm

All right.......Crusty the Clown, yes??

Good.....

Don't take too much THC with your simpsons!

THC

That's great news Selby! Now if we can only get Front to come down from the North Woods! E-mail me with dates that you may be available because at this stage I am going to try and put it together so that we can pick a date that is comfortable for all! ( If possible! )
Once Again: ALL: - e-mail me at : moonstep@idirect.com for directions to the informal Toronto area Kitcoite Holiday food and chat session!

what a runner : )

a buy 21 1/16 for Nem

Its smokin', eh?

yes clh my other pony is doing great as well.I like winners : )

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981127/eb.html

Good luck! A few juniors really starting to look good, as noted here on Kitco recently, and some positive press elsewhere. National Post here in Canada had an article this a.m., quoting Kaiser and focussing on the VSE. Nice to see some positive signs in an absolutely battered sector.

Going to move big time IMO. Drilling with Barrick. Wish I had MORE.

Absolutely,the next two month ,the VSE is were the money is.

Wish I had a boatload instead of half-a-dinghy full. I'll keep quiet now...

To all ..
The Mobil Exxon merger fascinates .. prior to 1960, the Standard
Vacuum oil company ( stanvac ) .. a joint venture of Mobil and
Esso operated in the Far East, marketing and refining petroleum
products. However, The Justice Department broke it up ..
as it represented to them the potential for restraint of trade.
The was the culmination of the JD's long battle with the
the old Standard Oil Co, the break up of which had commenced
a long time before ..
Now .. am I to believe that the Justice Dept is going to
approve a merger of these two giant companies ..putting them
BACK TOGETHER!!
... Mozel's got it right .. It's become a corporate world
with limited liability ..
.... Its a juggernaut of big business and big Government..
.... no one can stop it ..
Its actually more than that to me .. The CEO of Mobil is
a chap named Lucio Noto. I knew him in Japan over a period of
maybe 5 years .. we were bridge partners .. we explored
Shinjuku at night together .. I feel that this
merger is completely wrong and in no one's interest .. cost
reduction is taking on a life of its own .. but I KNOW Lou
and IM sure he will get it through .. and probably wind up
as the head of the new Exxon in the process .. the thing is ..
Lou is a genuinely nice guy .. the corporate world of never
ending OBJECTIVES seems to be reaching a point of little
return .. what will he do for an encore ?? ..

.. If Reno approves this .. she is saying that
it would be ok for Microsoft to BUY netscape but not
to give them a hard time in the marketplace .. am I
missing something ?? where are our legal brains ( ahem )
when we need them ?

Very ugly action in the seniors for the last week or so. Hoping this will be over soon and they can lead the POG back up. Some great values out there relative to the general equities market. The old rule applies --- gotta buy when no-one else is.........

And "they" ( lib media ) say the Republicans are the party of business? And the Democrats are letting all this get by with no anti trust action? Could it be that the demos are bought and paid for? Reno is obviously just taking orders from her boss. A la letting Gore off the hook! We are in big trouble.

Next 20 min not above 21 1/4,I will be out on the side line.
Action unimpressive.

@ 299.10

HighRise

With the pressure on most commodities
it would seem gold is holding up rather
well. The question is can this continue?
A break back toward $275 would seem
to indicate a setup for a repeat of
the Septemebr equity market slide, to
be followed by further rate cuts by
Greenspan. The strength in the US dollar
and the flat bond market are not good for the
the equity markets IMHO either

Hi Silverbaron!

I noticed your mention of Bill's request for help in providing a convincing argument that gold is at historically cheap levels. I'm sure he would love to receive support from the crew here. The buyer he speaks of is a well known figure.....

To contact Bill with your ideas:

1. Access his website

http://www.lemetropolecafe.com/Scripts/registration.cfm

2. Hit "Le Patron" for an e-mail prompt.

Please pardon the length, but here is the original text of the "challenge" from the "special guest" to the Cafe.

Reading the commentary in the cafe gives the disinterested observer the impression that gold bugs start from the premise that those responsible for the world's financial welfare are steering the ship straight towards the rocks. Experience of the past few years suggests that they are better pilots than the gold bugs give them credit for.


Frustrated by golds lacklustre performance, the comments of the gold bugs seem to become ever-more shrill as they try to convince themselves and others that the tide is about to turn for gold. "Methinks they protest too much". Who listens?


Do gold bugs ever seem to stop and ask themselves the question, "Is gold cheap?" If it is not cheap, it should not surprise them if it does not perform as they expect it to.


We all know that gold was cheap in 1970. After all it had been held at $35/oz by Central Bank intervention for over 30 years. Its subsequent price action in the 1970s suggests it had become very cheap indeed.


We all recognise now that gold was expensive in 1980 even if we did not recognise it at the time. ( Whatever happened to the Aden sisters who gained notoriety by suggesting that the gold price was heading for $3500/oz? ) .


Perhaps it would help if we could establish whether gold is cheap or expensive in real terms today. Gold bugs know the answer, but there is evidence that it may not be as cheap as they think it is. Lets compare the industry today with what was happening in 1970 when gold really was cheap.


In 1970, production was falling, mines were closing, costs were rising grades were falling, mine lives were getting shorter and shorter. With this background, gold shares were considered wasting assets which had to give investors their money back over the remaining life plus an adequate return to compensate for the mining risk.


Contrast that scenario with the position today which hardly suggests that gold is cheap.


Production is still rising, new low cost mines are opening - not many admittedly. Costs are falling and continuing exploration is prolonging mine lives- or so we are led to believe. Gold shares are rated like growth stocks which suggests that the market believes that many mines can expand production profitably even at these gold prices.


None of this suggests that gold is cheap historically in real terms, even though it is cheaper now than it was 18 years ago. What is undeniable is that gold had unprecedented purchasing power in 1980.


The World Gold Council has made available a series of figures ( Source Bannock Consulting ) which purport to track the gold price in real terms since 1900. The mathematicians among you will be able to tell the rest of us whether gold is as cheap today as the gold bugs think it is. Being no mathemetician myself I find it hard to understand why their index appears to have been unaffected by the increase in the gold price in 1934 from $20.67 to $35/oz. It would seem logical that the owner of an ounce of gold in 1933 would have greatly increased purchasing power in 1934, but the figures do not suggest that was the case. This makes me cautious about accepting the series at face value. Perhaps another of your customers has an explanation or a different series of figures which will enable the rest of us to decide whether gold is as cheap as many think it is.


Alex




REALGOLD



Real Price of gold in UK and USA 1900-1997

Index, 1930=100

Snip snip to "save bandwidth"....

YEAR
UK
US $

1900
138.50
144.

1996
123.54
199.54

1997
99.48
169.79

AVERAGE
130.57
133.77


Source Bannock Consulting

There is a term for the condition that allows corporate power with government collusion --- FACSISM!!! This is the New Order of things to come. Reminding ourselves that the Press is a well-entrenched part of the corporate world, in essence, their propaganda arm, they are not to be trusted either. Guess what? The next step is to consolidate the only other two variables in the formula - resources and labor. Resources are owned by the corporations. What isn't will be owned by the banks as soon as the Big Bankers orchestrate the financial debacle that will effect the transfer of ownership of all things private to them via their collateralization of borrowed funds. The last asset to be conquered is LABOR. The New World will be so grim that the toiling masses will beg for the GOVT to DO SOMETHING!!!!! They will do something all right. They will control all aspects of life with an iron hand and erase those who want to stay outside of the system. Boy, it sounds great. I won't have to worry about anything again. Good luck one and all.

I believe the reason that the POG didn't jump when FDR revalued it was because constant dollar analysis doesn't look at what the govt says - it looks at the overall price changes in the market to determine inflation. Just because FDR says that the POG has risen 40% doesn't mean that its real value has instantly risen also. Does that make sense??? THX

May have been posted already.
11/27/98 -- 11:27 AM

Dollar down, gold up in London LONDON ( AP ) - The dollar was higher against other major currencies in European trading today. Gold rose in London. The U.S. currency was trading at 1.7018 German marks, down from 1.7046 late Thursday. It also was quoted at 122.62 Japanese yen, down from 122.25. Other dollar rates compared with late Thursday: 1.4034 Swiss francs, down from 1.4086; 5.7065 French francs, down from 5.7160; 1.9187 Dutch guilders, down from 1.9216; 1,684.20 Italian lire, down from 1,687.30; 1.5320 Canadian dollars, up from 1.5280 The British pound was quoted at $1.6554, down from $1.6588. Gold
dealers in London fixed a recommended price of $296.70 bid per troy ounce at midmorning, up from $296.40 on Thursday. In Zurich the bid price was $295.70, down from $296.50. Gold rose 10 cents in Hong Kong to $296.45. Silver opened in London at $4.94 bid per troy ounce, up from $4.92.
^AP-ES-11-27-98 1128EST TAMPA-11-27-98 1127EDT 

Coral has an excellent performance,it is warming the VSE.
btw got out NEM 21 1/16.cycles moving down next week for gold

Thanks for posting the Canadian Exchange info. I got what must have been the same e-mail this morning. I like this program & service. Seriously considering subscribing.

They are both awakening.

yours of Fri Nov 27 1998 06:10
absolutely scintillating !! I salute you !!

I like the concept of "concretized energy". I think there is a causal like between oil/gold when a war is afoot. Also, it seems to me that gold is a way to "launder" currency. Once converted to gold, it is more difficult to determine it's source, and is accepted everywhere. Therefore, if illicit oil were to be traded ( not politically santioned oil ) it's movement could be camoflaged by converting to gold.

causal like = causal link

Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 178.617 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 295.700 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 178.813 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 296.150 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 2.9801 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 27 Nov 1998 ) : 4.9350 US Dollars

We know absolutely that gold was underpriced at $20.67 in 1932. Why? Miners had reduced production almost every year since 1915. They could not make a profit at $20.67. Labor costs were rising due to the WWI, the world was on a gold standard and was forbidden by law to print money to pay the war costs. No government wanted to acknowledge there had been inflation and the steadily falling money supply caused the deflation and depression.

If nothing had been done prices would have continued dropping until gold was profitable to mine again at the $20.67 fixed price. By the time of the 1932 election the depression had bottomed and things had slowly started to improve. Roosevelt did not need to tamper with the price but of course he did not know that. No one did. It can only be known in hindsight.

Today we have exactly the same situation. We have had fifty years of war and the Fed refuses to acknowledge its wartime inflation by using every tool at its disposal to keep the price of gold low for political reasons. Miners refuse to mine and deflation is causing prices to drop down to the point where lower mining costs will permit expanded mining operations.

After Roosevelt raised the gold price miners began operation again. The U.S. government had agreed to accept gold from any source, not just newly mined gold, at $35.00. The stuff poured in from around the world piling up in Ft. Knox. The price had been set too high. Government failed to set the "right" price, as it always does, because only the free market knows that price.

Things are priced in gold, they have always been priced in gold, governments may like to think otherwise but they are wrong.

have a nice weekend

Crystal Ball
When you wish upon a star....Thank you for your kind words, I read upon my rising. A ray of golden sunshine on a cold and rainy Summer weekend morning. The title of that post, 'Homo Ludens' was taken from a book of the same name I read some time ago. I've just gone looking for it, and it seems to have disappeared ex libris auramontana. A prodigal book always causes me to grieve for a short while before hoping that the book has awakened in ANOTHER what it awakened in me, so I wish it well on its journey. ( My peregrinating library )

THC
Nope, wrong crusty. The crusty I referred to never employed Side-show Bob, and only occasionally has problems with hired help.

It was Saki who wrote "He was a good cook, as good cooks go, and, as good cooks go, he went."

I'd like to write like that!

http://quote.yahoo.com/a3?u

Will we ever see the day when gold and silver and plat stocks
are rising 100's of % in a day? Unless Y2K really brings us back
to the stone age, I am starting to doubt it. I bought International
Pursuit at the $4 level based upon the expert advice of Blanchard,
Gold Stock Report, Gold and Silver Report, and many others; look at
it now $0.25. I'm holding onto what I've got of Hecla, Int. Pursuit,
Campbell resources, and North American Palladium, but I'll be damned
if I'll sink anymore money into gold stocks or URSA for that matter.
At least if I buy coins, I have something I can hold in my hand
and can't dissipate into nothingness.

Will colloidal silver help me with this bad case of gas I am experiecning today?

That is all.

Well said General. Sometimes I wonder that even if the world were rid of Central Banks...what's to prevent private banking conglomerates from beating the crap out of gold also? If this gold, price control theory is correct.

General
The Gold Newsletter was almost my only source of Precious metal info for a few years. It was hazardous to my financial health, until I realised I was helping Blanchard buy his estates in Mauritious. Then I decided that as I was neither a trader, nor close to the action I was the mug. So I started buying precious metals to hold in my hand, tenaciously. I will be buying gold stocks again, but not quite yet.

tenaciousauracious

Precious metals newsletter writers are all crooks from my view. You have been burned by Blanchard, Doug Casey has pulled the same stunts on people and I don't trust Grandich either . They are parasites. Good traders don't need to publish.

The good news is that you don't need them. You can do all the research that you want, with amazing charts right here on the internet. Newsletters ( except for those providing raw data ) are obsolete.

You might even get some ideas here at Kitco... but do your own due diligence.

Trading had stopped south of the border, but the TSE is open. Not much interest in the majors this afternoon. Things are looking a bit weaker every day. It is getting close to crunch time for PM stocks. December may be a tough month.

From TVX University Club
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/tvxuniversity/bbs?action=m&board=yahoo.e5.13.11000909?icid=21p1&msgid=73mj6j$50l$8@p1.clubs.yahoo.com>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/tvxuniversity/bbs?action=m&board=yahoo.e5.13.11000909?icid=21p1&msgid=73mj6j$50l$8@p1.clubs.yahoo.com TVX Gold Inc. in the news http://www.news.com/Investor/Quote/0,208,0~3~0~~tvx~~~~~~,00.html

Having a problem with getting Fgr.a on Alberta. Otherwise it seems very good.

Mike Stewart
Were I not living in the antipodes I should definitely be trading. But, I live on the dark side of the globe. I'd never employ anyone to look after my money, I've never met anyone who knows more about finance than I. I would have to be up all night and then sleep all day to watch all the shenanigans in real time to watch over my wealth. What's the point of being a troglodyte living in the most beautiful country on earth? I prefer to sleep while you lot scurry around. Yes, I have learned much in the couple of years I've knocked around kitco. Thanks to you and all for the ejukashion. But I shall be buying stocks again....just biding my time.

ghoti fingers

I hope that the chicken entrails augur well.

Comments from TVX Carl Hansen Manager, Investor Relations Many of you are concerned about the recent article in Bloomberg regarding the potential joint venturing of TVX's Greek assets. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/tvxuniversity See Message no 2421 Investor Relations by cbgold ########################################### TVX Gold Inc. in the news article in Bloomberg regarding the potential joint venturing of TVX's Greek assets. http://www.news.com/Investor/Quote/0,208,0~3~0~~tvx~~~~~~,00.html

Goldteck
Err, Gidday. This TVX chart, does it fill you with hope or dread?:
http://www.news.com/Investor/CompanyChart/0,212,0~3~2~Precious%20Metals~TVX~~~~LRG~5Y~,00.html

Shoot the margins..

gain with BGO/AZS before his luck ran out. Gave a lot back before I realized that he was at least clueless & at worst a crook. My tip off was when he recommended CTQ all the way from 19 down to 4.

john disney...

the mobil/exxon merger does indeed ring the bell of
awareness to which way the cart is being driven...
and who is being driven out....
having worked for mobil/superior oil for over 10 years...

i witnessed the selling of their---our--domestic fields for
capital to invest in russia---soon to be nationalized---
i've got tons of mobil stock--by accident---that i'd love to sell...


now with the down-turn in poo....
they are preparing to buy them back for pennies on the dollar..the
small producers will crumble as they did in the 80's......as will
the sectors currently providing men and material....

there is a wild card how-ever.....the middle east....israel......iraq..
saddam insane.....and klinton......

bbmlamsyalms.......

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/tvxuniversity

TVX Carl Hansen Manager, Investor Relations

From TVX University Message 2421 by cbgold Many of you are concerned about the recent article in Bloomberg regarding the potential joint venturing of TVX's Greek assets. This is not a new story. In TVX's October 23 press release we state "the changing state of the industry and the magnitude of the anticipated investments to build these projects, may necessitate the participation of third party support.

TVX Gold has to come up with between $65 and $100 million for its portion of the Greek investment. This has nothing to do with the bank financing. Similar to when you purchase a house, the banks require you to put up some of your own cash. This is not financable, regardless of the situation.

It is not necessarily TVX's wish to joint venture these properties, however, market conditions dictate that we consider it as one of the options available. We have looked at every avenue to keep these assets 100% TVX, particularly given the immense exploration potential of the property.

A partner, a senior producer with a strong balance sheet, will help TVX finance the property, reduce TVX's debt exposure, and reduce the amount of cash that TVX must come up with. The participation of a joint venture partner will also go a long way in relieving the worries of a number of investors of making such a substantial investment in Greece. While TVX is comfortable with operating in the country, many, particularly in North America, are unfamiliar with mining in Greece even though it has a significant establish mining industry.

For more information I can be reached at

cbhansen@tvxgold.com

or for those who wish to speak to me directly, TVX has a toll free number in North America:

1-877-tvxgold

RegardsCarl Hansen

Manager, Investor Relations

 http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/tvxuniversity/bbs?action=m&board=yahoo.e5.13.110009 09?icid=21p1&msgid=73mj6j$50l$8@p1.clubs.yahoo.com ########################################### TVX Seeks as Much as US$200 Million for Gold Stakes ( Correct )

Bloomberg News

November 25, 1998, 12:00 p.m. PT

TVX Seeks as Much as US$200 Million for Gold Stakes ( Correct )

Toronto, Nov. 25 ( Bloomberg ) -- TVX Gold Inc. is seeking

US$150 million to US$200 million from the sale of a 50 percent

stake in its two gold mines in Greece, a company spokesman said.

The Canadian gold miner sought a joint-venture partner this

month after calculating it didn't have enough cash to develop

the sites, estimated to yield an average of at least 265,000

ounces of gold annually for 20 years. It currently produces

500,000 ounces a year.

Nine ``senior'' producers are interested in the projects and

several have signed confidentiality agreements to study them in

more detail. The company expects to reach an agreement in three

to six months, said company spokesman Ed Baer. The company is

awaiting a final valuation on the sites.

The Toronto-based company also considers itself a possible

takeover target, Baer said.

``A lot of people in the market think that the current

environment is a good time for consolidation,'' Baer said. ``We

may be a target for one of those consolidations.''

Baer said total construction costs for the mines will be

about US$475 million. European Union grants will cover US$150

million of that sum, and US$250 million would come from bank

financing.

The company currently has US$46 million of cash. It expects

to spend a total of US$7 million on exploration and development

this year and next.

TVX won a Greek government auction for the rights to the

Olympias and Skouries properties in 1995. Baer said Olympias is

expected to start production in the fourth quarter of 2000, and

Skourias in the first quarter of 2001.

HSBC Securities analyst Victor Flores said what makes the

Greek property especially attractive to a potential partner is

that TVX has done most of the groundwork. http://www.news.com/Investor/Quote/0,208,0~3~0~~tvx~~~~~~,00.html

``TVX has sunk a lot of money into feasibility studies on

these mines,'' Flores said. ``If base metal prices come anywhere

near where they've been in the recent past, it makes sense for

people to look.''

Gold touched a 19-year low of $273.85 an ounce in August

amid increasing supply from mining companies and after a string

of sales of reserves by central banks. Prices have since rallied

as much as 10 percent. Gold for December delivery fell 90 cents

to $295.50 an ounce in New York.

TVX stock fell 15 percent on Oct. 15 after an Ontario

provincial court ruled that Alpha Group was entitled to 12

percent of the Greek mines. TVX is appealing the decision.

Stock of TVX fell C$0.04 ( US$0.026 ) to C$3.10 in

midafternoon Toronto trading.

On Oct. 23, TVX President and Chief Operating Officer David

Murray quit and was replaced by Cliff Davis in the COO post. The

decision to seek a partner was made before Murray quit, Baer

said.

--Keith Campbell in London ( 44 171 ) 330 7089 through the Toronto

More News:TVX

I've been assuming that the recent poor performance is due to tax loss selling and that things would pick up by mid to late December ( barring a collapse of the gold price ) . Maybe I'm wrong again....?

My comments on using the internet to do your own research, and thus avoiding newsletters, was meant as a general comment, not as a shot at you personally.

Excellent question! I will say a little bit of hope ( gold is historically low ) and a little bit of dread because if gold price stays below $300 during a few years some gold producers will be in trouble .Best Regards

I have been considering the effect of tax-loss selling on my indicators. In particular, the new lows on Toronto mining issues have increased lately. The stocks hitting new lows are all dogs. The late August capitulation should have cleared the decks on the majors, so and I don't think that it will be as bad as last year. Golds were smashed through November into mid December. Nevertheless, I will be selling some shares if we break from here.

did in Oct. Should know by mid next week.

move next week

Especially the two you mentioned, of which

I am a past subscriber of both. Doug Casey's

letter is chronically late and filled with philosophical

ramblings for lack of anything better to say. Most

of his recomendations are just promotions to

provide a run-up and liquidity for exit on his personal

positions.

Blanchard is a master promotor. Has a huge follwing

in spite of a very marginal track record. Investors

lose money on his recomendations and come

wide eyed back for more. Just look at his affect

on DROOY in September. Must be mass hypnosis.

The Icynene site is an excellent primer on Insulation of Structures and their product looks first class.

Thanks; appreciate your input and insights on the TSE gold sector. Incidentally, I think you were the one who first mentioned QTR here a while back, right??...did you see the close today??!!

I'm glad that gold will be moving this next week. I hope that you are saying that it will be moving up?!

Mike Stewart
The Internet is the most wonderful resource. And this kitco is a focus of PM info, most extraordinary. Now, we all have access to much more info, instant charts and history. We can also ask questions of each other here. It is so much easier to do our own DD. There are really no excuses for relying solely on the Blanchards & Puetzes. I seem to remember that I found an old Gold Newsletter where Puetz was a guest writer. There's more wisdom here than all the Gold Tipsheets on the Planet, IMHO.

oleman said buy on the way down. Livermore said buy on the way up. These differences make a market, no?

Dow/Gold Ratio = 31.48. The 233 day moving average is 29.12

XAU/Spot Ratio = .252. The 233 day moving average is .249

I sold my DROOY and switched to Anglogold because of the newsletter hype reported here in early October. I do own a little Golden Star Resources, a long time favorite of these writers. I intend to sell it when they push it up again ( it may be gone if it doesn't happen soon ) .

There have been some references here to Queenstake from a few people, including me. I bought some along with Southwestern Gold in the summer. They had cash in the bank, a history of higher prices and joint ventures with some big guys. I figured that they would turn around in time. Any good news would do it. Nothing particularly clever. I only bought a few thousand shares, but I am glad that it has quadrupled.

I've been following your ratios for awhile now. But...uh...waddatheymean?

'scuse my ignrence.

Ok, now correct me if I'm wrong:

Lamp oil = kerosine = coal oil ( = diesel #2 or maybe #3 or maybe stove oil ???? )

I would like to buy a drum of fuel that can be used in lamps. I need to know what other uses it has ( maybe the power doesn't go out ) . What other names does it use. Is it the same stuff they use to cut diesel in winter to prevent gelling? Will a tractor run on it?

We used to spend summers in the mountains and I filled those lamps almost every day. A couple dainty little bottles won't last long but I hate to buy very much if it has no other use.

Thanks

P.S. Don't forget to buy extra wicks.

Lehman's Catalogue ( paper edition ) ...www.lehmans.com is their site where you can order the previous...

Quotes from "Alchemie of Finance" ( by George Soros ) :
"The dollar is unsound at any price" ( p358 )
Talking about the crash of 87:
"As a consequence we can expect a period of continuing turmoil in financial markets although the focus of attention may shift from the stock market to the currency market and the bond market and eventually to the market for precious metals". ( p359 )
Written: 1987

I feel everyone should be allowed to have their opinion at Kitco on where they think the price of gold is headed. However, in following the comments posted by The Priest to date, I have to conclude that he has said nothing!!

Where on the net can I find out what 1999 PM options are trading for?

I lightened up in the gold sector today. Failure of thte XAU to hold its 200 day moving average pretty well confinced me that there will be a little more weakness at least in this sector. Falling long term rates, a stronger dollar, and dropping oil just are not the factors that add up to improving environment for gold share ownership. What does intrgue me however is the fact that gold is holding up reasonably well here. In activity in NY on Friday might have disquised what would have been a drop below 295 for that we will have to wait till Monday. Frankly, if gold holds here and the shares pull back under tax loss selling I think it has to tell you that something is going to happen.

Lightened up for a bit .....but back in a flash if we start to move. The mania in the internet stocks will last a little while longer but the valuation to sales ratios of these stocks are way way way out of line. this is the Christimas rally of Christmas rallies - rationality will return with a vengence.

The ratios I post are pretty simple stuff. The Dow/Gold is the number of ounces of gold required to buy the Dow. Today it was 31.48 ounces. The high was July 16th at 31.82 ounces we have not had a new high since then.

The XAU/Spot ratio is the number of ounces to buy the XAU. Today it was .252 ounces. The advantage of both is that it allows a long term comparison that is not muddled by inflation. For example, the high for the Dow in 1929 was 18.43 ounces; in 1966 we were at about 28 ounces.

November 27, 1998 Market Rap with Bill Fleckenstein If the Fed Buy 'Spoos', Should You?
http://www.stocksite.com/features/contrarian/rap/

This was was given to us courtest of Sharefin:

http://router.minot.com/~bohl/

Will

Many Thanks.

Thanks for the response. I'm afraid my question wasn't very cogent.

To clarify...How do you use these indicators? Are they leading indicators? Do they ever signal buying/selling opportunities, etc.?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.kitco.com/cgi-bin/comments/investment/display_short.cgi#start?SHOWTYPE=SHORT

Not that it means anything, but the store was out of generators. I thought I'd glance at them while I was Christmas shopping and the guy said they were selling out. FWIW.

Great reat referenced below. The great ride he is talking about? Ride down? Will sgold shares benefit when the bubble bursts. I have my eye on the gold price for I think its stability tells us that as a monetary instrument it is being prized by somebodies.

Friend of mine just called. He had just finished a week in which he had made four times his money on an internet stock picked up off the Yahoo challenge and with minimal additional research. The same fellow asked me what a limit order was and how to place it. Poppular delusions and madness of crowds are in abundance.

I am concerned for all our lifestyles if gold ever has a similar run.

All, I posted earlier this week about a 25kw tractor driven generator
for US$2,100.00 that needed a 50 hp tractor to run it-at least thats what the advertisement said. I had a guy tell me today that he had a 32kw unit that he COULD NOT RUN WITH A 150 HP TRACTOR. Someone responded at the time that 50 was way short of power and it seems he was right.
I will get a better report when this guy and I meet next week and do a follow up. I guess you just can't believe everything you read.
DUH!

For the Junior players out there that believe the junior market is bottoming take a look at what is happening in Nevada. Just pulled up the charts on CLH and CLN and they speak volumes for the direction these plays are taking. WKR and MIQ are in a bottoming process and they too could offer multiples. WKR is very quiet as it waits for approval on its three and one half million share private placement. Have been told this stock was taken down by insiders, no proof but it makes sense. Coral Gold will start drilling shortly as Placer have had work crews on the ground for the last thirty days. Claimstaker is to resume drilling shortly after encountering lower plate carbs at very shallow depths along with anomolous gold and copper in all three holes. Not sure of the status of MIQ perhaps someone that is familiar with them can bring us up to date.
The Carlin/Battle Mountain gold trend is a proven enviroment for both elephant sized ore bodies and tidy little sub one million ounce discoveries. The trend is very mining friendly and boasts some of the lowest cost production levels world wide. Any major finds would be the target of any number of Senior Producers in the area. In fact I understand that Placer has been grabbing claims left and right as they tie up as much land as possile along the Roberts Mountain Thrust Fault.
Do your own due-dilligence and lets hope that one of these brave soles discover an economic ore body. It would launch the VSE!!!!

valuation model, the S&P is overvalued by 10%. They are now attempting to talk the equity mkts down. The mkts may be too far out of control, but I would'nt be surprised if sanity temporarily prevails & the Dow takes a 250 point hit on Mon.

Greenspam responsible for the coming debacle. At the very least, he is incompetent & acquiesed. AGRAPORN 3RD RATE--read it & then try to defend your hero.

Heh heh, that's the back room of the Kitco Bar & Grill, where rules are unknown and Gold shines.

i believe i have said plenty here and i feel i must lay the ground before one could fully apreciate to the full extent of one judgement and
accuracy on these markets

DEFINITION OF TECHNICAL ANALYSIS


The term technical in its application to the stock market has come to have a special meaning, quite different from its ordinary dictionary definition. It refers to the study of the action of the market itself as opposed to the study of the goods in which the markets deals. Technical Analysis is the science of recording, usually in graphic form, the actual history of trading ( price changes, volume of the transactions, etc. ) in a certain stock or in the averages and then deducing from that pictured history the probable future trend.

The technical student argues thus: It is futile to assign an intrinsic value to a stock certificate. One share of United States Steel, for example, was worth $ 261 in the fall of 1929, but you could buy it for only $22 in June of 1932. By March 1937 it was selling for $ 126 and just one year later for $ 38. In May 1946 it had climbed back up to $97 and ten months later in 1947 had dropped below $ 70 although the companys earnings on this last date were reputed to be nearing an all time high and interest rates in general were near an all time low. The book value of this share of U. S. Steel, according to the corporations balance sheet was about $204 in 1929 ( end of the year ) , $187 in 1932, $ 151 in 1937, $ 117 in 1938 and $ 142 in 1946. This sort of thing, this wide divergence between presumed value and actual price, is not the exception: it is the rule: it is going on all the time. The fact is that real value of the share of U.S. Steel common is determined at any given time soley, difinitely and inexorably by supply and demand, which are accurately reflected in the transactions consummated on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange.

Of course, the statistics, which the fundamentalists study, play a part in the supply-demand equation that is freely admitted. But there are many other factors affecting it. The market price reflects not only the differing value opinions of many orthodox security appraisers but also all the hopes and fears and guesses and moods rational and irrational of hundreds of potential buyers and sellers as well as their needs and their resources in total factors which defy analysis and for which no statistics are obtainable but which are nevertheless all synthesized, weighed and finally expressed in the one precise figure at which a buyer and seller get together and make a deal through their brokers. This is the only figure that counts.

Moreover the technician claims with complete justification that the bulk of the statistics which the fundamentalists study are past history, already out of date and sterile because the market is not interested in the past or even in the present. It is constantly looking ahead attempting to discount future developments weighing and balancing all the estimates and guesses of hundreds of investors who look into the future from different points of view and the through glassed of different hues. In brief the going price as established by the market itself comprehends all the fundamental information which the statistical analyst can hope to learn plus some which is perhaps secret from known only to a few insiders and much else beside of equal or even greater importance.

All of which admitting its truth would be of little significance were it not for the fact, which no one of experience doubts that prices move in trends and trends to continue until something happens to change the supply demand balance. Such changes are usually detectable in the action of the market itself. Certain patterns or formations, levels or areas appear on the charts, which have, a meaning can be interpreted in terms of probable future trend development. They are not infallible it must be noted but odds are definitely in their favor. Time after time, as experience has amply proved, they are far more prescient than the best-informed and most shrewd of statisticians.

The technical analyst may go even further in his claims. He may offer to interpret the chart of a stock whose name he does not know so long as the record of trading is accurate and covers a long enough term to enable him to study its market background and habits. He may suggest that he could trade with a profit in a stock knowing only its ticker symbol completely ignorant of the company the industry, what it manufactures, or sells, or how it is capitalized. Needless to say such a practice is not recommended, but if you market technician is really experienced at his business he could , in theory, do exactly what that.

Should the reader at this point find the technical approach to trading or investing as explained in the foregoing, completely abhorrent, perhaps he had better look closely a the performance of the of certain stock listed on the exchanges and compare their prices over three five year intervals.



Something to think about when investing in todays world

Nothing would surprise me in regards to the movement in the DOW, but a 10% over valuation in the S&P seems trivial ... the market is being run by cash margin and greed. We are headed for 10,000 on the DOW or thereabouts. Then I bet the music will stopand the cards will come tumbling down. How will fare the golds??? that is the question.

Reported today in The Nat Post that Taiwan just took delivery of the last 18 of the 60 Mirage fighter planes from France. How much did they pay-100 mil ea? That would be 6 bil out of their economy that could have been put to productive use...or, as they have a preference for AU in their treasury-6bil less AU they could hold. I'm not sure how much AU they hold now but am sure that they have been acqiring much less over the last couple years, if not actually divesting.
Then there are the Arab States, particularly Saudi Arabia, that used to hold a lot of AU, but have been divesting over the last 2 years. Instead of AU, Saudi Arabia is the proud owner of 10s of bils of fighter planes & armaments, that will become obsolete before they are ever used.
The USG has suckered/forced these States to spend all their wealth on useless armaments--China will still take over Taiwan within the next 2-3 years--to the detriment of their citizens & the profit of the rapacious industrial/military complex. And, alas, the detriment of GBs.

....i believe to process of reinflation in accelerate over the next six to eight months

I'm long, but light.

THE Priest ( Reinflation ) ID#369333:
....i believe the process of reinflation will accelerate over the next six to eight months

highs. They can now point out that since the old highs were surpassed, we are not in a bear mkt. I don't think they will take it much higher from here, near term. After all, there is a limit to the stupidity of the MF Mgrs. But they will be able to take it down at least a 1000 points or even below 8000, so long as they don't let it go below the old low, they will claim that the bull still lives.
They are so good at it--take them up & then take them down. The fleecing of the lambs.

I think that a 150hp motor should be able to turn a 32kW generator,see what some of the smaller ones ratio of hp/kW is and extrapolate from there.

*******************************
WHO or WHAT is controlling the POG?
1.Supply and demand.
2.CBs
3.Bilderbergers/Trilats/OA
4.US Govt.
5.Fill in the Blank
*******************************

I was just over at the Princeton Economics site. The daily/weekly/monthly for gold are all GREEN. This is usually a contrary indicator for the coming week.

I drove past a signboard on a nearby Presbyterian church two days ago.
It said: This week's sermon: "THE BIG GULP".

I know that it has been said before but this time is really for real. The money supply in the US is out-of-control!!!!



By the way I agree with the US stock market going down. I was upset that it went up today, being short and all. Monday should be a good down day, but just in case I'm placing my stop at 1201.10 Dec S&P.

That's all

give my sermon

*******************************
WHO or WHAT is controlling the POG.
1.Supply and demand
2.CBs
3.Bilderbergers/Trilats/OA
4.US Govt.
5.Fill in the blank.
*******************************

The S&P weekly chart shows a clear exponential rise. The following chart
shows similar market behavior, with a sharp break and a brief rise to still higher prices. Then the end. How the S&P mania might unwind:

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha63.gif

Great chart of Corn - we'll need some event I think to bring the market down like that unless the cash and margin just run out or Y2K hits. I don't expect the stock market to be making new highs a year from now. I further suggest that Asia will have serious problems.

If PEI has green arrows on gold I assume that is bullish. The way the metal has been hanging in there when you'd think it would drop is very interesting, and connot be ignored. XAU looks to be rollig over, as I noted before. 200 day moving average is down another 2 points from the close today.

I bet we just slither around till the last week of December when the tax loss selling is over.

The Fleckstein piece is fine sure, but what about that blipvert next to the Stock Site logo? Something about the newest form of gambling wasn't it? Where's the consistency? Or sense of moral hazard responsibility for site visitors? Reading a contrarian paid for by that blipvert is schizoid indeed!

Date: Wed Nov 25 1998 18:07
Swamp Boy ( Redneck en Pierre, kin yer believe dat ) ID#290276:

durn ALgore, en wee aint got'enny dem Spotted'Awls in da'Okee.
Hee wanna take bak da'Okee fur da Gubermint so dey kin find da gole hoo da'Spaniads stole
frum der Aztics en dat Ponce De'Layon berried heer wenn hee lookin fur Da Fawtin Youth.
Wenn hee see'd dem purty Indin Squaws en'taut hee was in heaven.
Now Algore, hee wanna give da Okee'gole to'da IMF so dey kin kontrol da'Werle enclose
DOWen r'stills.
Wee Okee folk r'looking fer da gole, en Git ( en ) Reel close to et, den wee gonna buy
da'Okee or see'ceed frum da'Yooniyun en maake da'Okee wun dem Investmint Heavens so
da gubbermints doen steal yer life savings.
Wenn wee see'ceed da Okee is off-limits ta Git Reel en dem wild piggs frum da'Okefenokee.

Swamp Boy: GENERIL DIRECTER; FUR DA'CITIZENS FUR A FREE OKEE, EN
A'GIN ALGORE

http://www.techstocks.com/~wsapi/investor/reply-6580824

From Bill Buckler:

"Between WW II and the start of the 1970s, the U.S. stock market did
very well, but most people didn't participate directly. They bought
houses, and filled them with the latest in appliances and furniture.
They put one car in the new garage, and maybe even two. And if
there was anything left over, and there quite often was, they put it in
the bank. They had no worries about their jobs, and they had no doubt
that they were getting ahead. What's more, they were."

A Reminder to all, there was a managed currency system run by government, and Keynesian theory was in ascension.

Those were the days.....


Live Long and Prosper.

5 ) Three midgets hidden in a dark basement in Brooklyn, NY.

On November 30, don't the fans have to tell their hedge funds what positions to close out for the quarter? This should make for some interesting volatility.

infomagic has described all y2K remediation efforts as one big beta test, with the real test after 2000 delivering plenty of failures. The collapse of the Roman Empire is his historical analogy. Total collapse of human civilization.

Wouldn't that make the dollar like the lira, and put gold at, say, half a million bucks per oz.?

I was talking with a friend of mine about this very thing.

I was asking him about keroseen heaters and how much fuel they consumed. I kept referring to diesel fuel because as I knew it kerosene and disel are the same. He pointed out that diesel fuel has lubricents and additives and if burned in a heater would produce some aweful fumes. So I asked how much keroseen would it take to keep a heater running at night for a winter. He started talking about a 275gal heating oil tank. Well I have one of these as I heat with oil, and I asked if I could use heating oil in a kerosene heater. He claims it would work but be a bit smokey.

I also asked about using heating oil in a diesel engine, which I thought was very possible, he says that works fine, and then he said something which makes me wonder about his knowledge, he says that a diesel will run on just about any fuel including vegetable oil. In the case of veg. oil he says it won't develop any power unless the fuel is heated by the exhaust first.

Now at this point we started talking about the winter extreems here, it normally stays above -10 F. But in the past it has on occasion reached -35 F. He thinks that with no heat source in our area a family of healthy people should be able to close off the innermost room of a house and with enough blankets huddeled together survive a winter here. Older people or ill people would be in danger.

At this point we talked about y2k and he suggested that if things get as bad as that for a long enough period of time, things might never be right again.

My talk with him convinced me that there could be benefits to owning a wood stove. I'm going to call our furnace guy and talk to him about maybe in the spring would it be possible install a wood stove and run it to our existing chimney.

P.S. although I heat with heating oil, I need electricity to run the fan and the pump and the igniter. My friend pointed that out. I have a lot to learn, and now it seems I don't have much time to learn it.

Anyhow, I get the impression that lamp oil if for a kerosene lantern would work in most any kerosene/heating oil/diesel application, but that it is by far the most expensive of any of these fuels.

I have to order a tankfull of heating oil as I am almost out, and when they deliver it, I am going to talk to the fuel guy and try to verify all these things.

Interesting info on US Silver five cent pieces from WW2 era found on SI:
To: peter gucker ( 23476 )
From: ole 49r
Friday, Nov 27 1998 2:07PM ET
Reply # of 23511

Peter asks: How much silver was used in US war 5c? Crunch these numbers:

.05626 oz of silver per US War Nickel minted

1942-P 57,900,600 Minted
1942-S 32,900,000

1943-P 271,165,000
1943-D 15,294,000
1943-S 104,060,000

1944-P 119,150,000
1944-D 32,309,000
1944-S 21,640,000

1945-P 119,408,100
1945-P 37,158,000
1945-S 58,939,000

PS...the composition percentages of the US War Nickels are:
Copper 56%
Silver 35%
Manganese 9%
Also, there were NO 1942-D ( Denver ) war nickels minted.

Good Luck.
Looking forward to checking your math answer. ( g )

O/49r

Today, one of my family members found this URL, linking to but the latest of the long series of manias in this sad old world. http://www.furbylove.com/

Scuttlebut has it that the furby toy is being sold out as fast as it hits the shelves. The distribution shortages created by media hype and herd mentality are driving the price up daily. I checked on Yahoo and their Furby auction is now up to $300 per toy and rising. Which just goes to show that P.T. Barnum was right, 'xept I dont call the population suckers so much as damnfools. IMHO

Sad that in a country which annually aborts over 1,000,000 human fetuses there is a public stampede for toys which mimic pets which mimic children. IMHO

The only good to come of this is to prove that mania exists. I conjecture, given the nature of the human beast, that if the public ever gets wind of the fact that it is losing out on the tail end of the great gold bear there might be a gold stampede. IMHO

morbius ( Help ) ID#35757:

Where on the net can I find out what 1999 PM options are trading for?



***

if it is traded on nymex or comex try:

www.nymex.com go to charts and data and pick settelment prices



If other exchange,

goto www.midam.com

select traders resources

select links

here are links to all? exchanges

Midam can make really nice charts for any commodities traded on there exchange for free from the custom charts page.



here urls!:

http://www.nymex.com/chartsdata.html

http://www.midam.com/links.htm

http://www.midam.com/ecb/custom.html

http://www.quote.com/cgi-bin/jchart-form?genApplet=yes>http://www.quote.com/cgi-bin/jchart-form?genApplet=yes

http://www.quote.com select live charts ( if above fails )

An exerpt from the book, "The Sugarbag Years" an oral history of the Depression of the 20/30s. The Slump after WWI dragged into Depression as primary produce commodity prices decreased to 25% of their peak prices in the early 1920s. The Depression lasted virtually 15 years in NZ without respite.

"If you didn't have any debts, in some cases you could survive. Similarly, if you didn't have to pay rent, you could survive. People who had rent owing to them of course were often in a desperate position. Anybody who'd lent on mortgage of course was in a desperate position too. I well remember lawyers and businessmen working on relief work in the same gang as my father.....
The works department had a lot of rubbish, logs and clay and stuff to shift, said they said to the men on relief work Shift this, and it was shifted over to where the engineers indicated. Then the problem was what to do? The engineers looked around for more work and there wasnt any more, so they said Shift it back again. Here you had men shifting this heap of clay and rubbish from one spot to another and back again. You cant conceive of a worse degradation....

banking system implosion the author slated for '99? It's got teeth.

Some years ago I lived in a house with no heat except for a fireplace. It got REALLY cold even though our area only got down to -10 on a couple of occasions and the usual cold was in the 0 to +10 range. We added a sheet steel contraption known as a fireplace insert and it greatly improved the heat but required electricity to power a fan to blow the air. I recall that it cost about $600 at the time and, considering its weight would have been made out of about $25 worth of steel plus a couple of dollars worth of refractory for its liner.

Given that our coldest times were associated with power losses that was not very much fun at all. At the time I looked into the possibility of getting a stove massively constructed of masonry and tile which would soak up the heat all day then passively radiate it out even when the fire went out in the coldest portion of the night. These stoves are popular so I hear in parts of Asia and Central Europe.

One possible plus ( for the PGM market ) in using stoves is that there are some places where building codes require catalytic converters!

Spent some time recently looking into kerosene heaters. A 10 000 BTU heater is said to be sufficient to heat a 400 square foot room. They can be had for about US170 and there are several sites on the internet for mail orders.

Kerosene isn't cheap and a 10 000 BTU heater uses about 4 liters or about 1 US gallon every 16-22 hours and costs about U$.8o a liter. . Not using anything but kerosene is advice everywhere. Apparently any of the other oils will not only clog up the heater but don't burn right and may fill the room with CO.

Given the disparity in attitude and the level of self reliance between the generation of today and that of yesterday; a definitive account of the next depression will likely be titled, "The Sugar Teat Years". Or perhaps, "The Universal Temper Tantrum".

In NZ did they confiscate land? In 'Merka shortly after the great gold confiscation there was the removal of farmers from their lands to make way for hydroelectric power lakes. ( Not that this was the first such happening. The 'Merkan government has a long history of taking property; with the two most easily documented ehtnic groups targeted being the Amerindians, now called native 'merkans by the p.c. crowd, and the Confederate 'Merkans, now ignored by the p.c. bunch. ) IMHO

way...$100.00 of Space Blankets and candles if properly placed could radiate plenty of heat if need be...you would not be fat and happy...but you would not be frozen to the floor either...

If you want to find out the best way to stay warm on the cheap...go visit poor people who have to stay warm...I would imagine that folks at Kitco do not fall into the previous...being poor can make you real smart...uh huh...

The law was there.... Yes
But no GOLD was confiscated..

gagnrad

Furby's! Ludd! Every crowd has a silver lining. There is something about being human and joining a crowd. Social beasts we are. Beans like company. And, once in a crowd there is a tendency, perhaps even an imperative towards conformity. ( "All her rebellious friends were non-conformists, so she became one too." ) This is the foundation of our manias. I dare say though, that Furby's tho' they may be demonic, are more preferrable than the self-flagellates of the Dark Ages, or than the Crusades that spanned two centures and straddled the last Millennium.

...

Yep.. got 2 furbys
$400. each U.s.a. dollar
wanna buy ...eh

Good advice on NOT crossing fuels. Doing so is a damn fine way for both heater and heated to assume room temperature simultaneously.

For those suffering from architectural problems related to heating appliances, please remember that it's but the work of a moment to remove a pane of glass and replace it with an insert that will accomodate a stove pipe. Get some fireproof panels to protect the floor and walls and set 'er up. ...... Yer roomie may complain ..... vociferously even. But what the hell, with heat you can put up with almost any amount of bitching. ...... I may be in a totally different camp but it makes no sense to me to suffer in the cold merely to maintain the decorative integrity of one's quarters.

In the 70's energy crunch, I had a large house with only baseboard electric heat and a fire place with enough masonry to build a medieval castle. Following a partial winter of increasing electrical bills, I tore down the entire fireplace and built a nice accomodation for a woodstove. My roomie bitched and moaned about the diminished value of the house. ........ Right up to the beginning of the next winter and first firing of the woodstove. Never heard any more about it and in due course the house sold just fine.

gagnrad

Did they confiscate land?

When the boys came back from The Great War, the Government handed out land that had to be broken in, It was often swamp land or hilly and bush-clad. Many of the returned soldiers were defeated by the harshness of the task of clearing the land and lack of productivity once it had been cleared. Fertiser was not included in the War boon. There were many mortgagee sales, of course. For Public Works, like Railways, Tunnels, Bridges, Roads and Dams, Land could be compulsorily acquired by the Gobmint for compensation that it determined as fair. Land Confiscation, though has a long history in NZ. It is a very complicated subject as it involves conquests and Treaties, deceptions and law courts to wrest the land from the Maori's whose prior claim goes back to the last Millenium. So, very little private land was confiscated for public works as most of the large works, the Dams were in the back-blocks. But, it did happen and it still does. Not long ago the goldfields of Central Otago were flooded in a Hydroproject, Many of the old towns are now underwater. Land was confiscated and compensation was paid.

In my kerosene travels I found that there is --apparently--only 1 dealer in kerosene heaters in Toronto --about 5 million people so they say. A small shop in a not-so-nice part of town. Go about 40 miles from the city and you can buy 30 000 BTU units that require the use of an electric fan to get the heat out of the heater--no good for an ice storm like Montreal had last winter. Kerosene will not warming too many around here under any circumstances.

Thank you for your TA 101 course; more basic words have not been printed here for some time.

Methinks you have a low opinion of the collected intellect hereabouts. The folks on this page are way beyond this type pedestrian analysis; kind of like explaining to a master craftsman, how to hammer a nail. TA is nice and wonderful, and responsible for massive losses in gold these last few years. The charts have been consistently way out of balance, yet those who believed the pictures saw their fortunes disappear in a contrary and ornery market.

I am happy that you have strategy meetings and hope you strategize well.
Perhaps your strategy should be to learn from the folks here
Rather than lengthy quotes from arcane textbooks.
This a far more clever lot than you give them credit for
Perhaps the answer to your basic musings is to be found in your Kitco handle
Yet these folks grow weary of sermons and thirst mightily for truth
There has yet to be a chart which accurately forecasts that

Hard to quantify, yes?

Yes.

Earl
I would like to disagree with you, but you are right. There is a high cultural premium placed on selfishness at this fin-de-sicle world. The Temper Tantrum Years may well be the definitive title for the forthcoming oral history.
Another recollection from the sugarbag years noted how at the beginning of the "Slump" people were very suspicious of each other, but "When things were hard, I think I'll always remember from that time the way men who were in great hardship always helped one another if they could."

It reads so much like Grapes of Wrath, and Woody Guthrie's "Bound for Glory." Labour camps, dole queues, privation for most of the population. Unemployment topped 40%, and women were not counted in the workforce at all.

You folks will never catch up to us 'Mericans. Through the use of modern environmental law, private property is easily converted to public good without compensation. Happens every day. The public even applauds such magnanimity on the part of the private owner.

For example, all that's required is to declare a piece of property a "wetland" and it automatically becomes inconvertible by it's owner. Said declaration, does not however deprive the owner of his right to continue paying taxes on said property.

fertiser? Did I write fertiser? I meant of course fertiliser, Burns Philp hadn't yet finished levelling the guano off The Gilbert & Ellice Islands, as they used to be called, now Kiribati ( i think ) so there was fertiser in abundance just no $ to pay for em.

The gobmint also paid/subsidised some alluvial gold mining for some gangs in Nelson and Westland, I'll post a little about them one day.

A well formed paragraph, your last, and most trippingly typed. I have always enjoyed your play with words. I concur with your assessment of the Furby Fever Furor, but it becomes, on occasion, hard to tell, if it's the big beans rushing to conform, or the little beans demanding this conformity. The shortest word of great significance in the English language is "no". The big beans, in their rush to buy love and respect, have forgotten how loving a "no" can be.

Limey

In the 1930's the US government chose to break up a 200 year old insular lifestyle of the Appalachian region in a manner similar to the methods perfected by the Brits in their assimilation of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. These were 1 ) destruction of traditional communities, 2 ) dispossession from traditional lands 3 ) assimilation and reeducation from folk ways and language. I find it interesting that the Appalachians were remnants the same peoples who had originally fled England to avoid assimilation in the 1600s and 1700s, intermarried with remnants of the cherokee and Creek nations who had avoided eviction in the early 1800s.

Here is the government side of the story. This is a New Deal propaganda site:
http://www.kusd.edu/schools/bradford/academic_areas/jones_p4/presta/onehundreddays.html

Link to an university rural studies program, of academic interest only
http://www.rural.org/

Not too much available tonight on my search engines about kerosine heat, but some interesting hits on wood heating. Here is a link to a small heating forum. Look to the fourth link on their bulletin board. From the small number of participants I'd say that it isn't even as popular a subject as gold:
http://www.dicksonsupply.com/def4.htm

stove sellers, a random sample:
http://www.earthstove.com/
http://www.nas.com/~chimneysweep/travis.htm
http://www.hansenwholesale.com/fireplaces/vermont/vermont.html
http://www.usstove.com/
http://www.englanderstoves.com/
http://www.goodtimestove.com/index.html

Earl
I never said the compensation was fair, nor that it left those dispossessed of their land enamoured of the gobmint. Most kiwis have always felt a deep disrespect for gobmint. There may be a test of that disrespect on the horizon.

In the early 80's the then gobmint began issuing "lifetime" licences. They are ugly plastic impregnated paper certificates of awkward dimensions so they have to be folded at least twice to be fitted into a wallet. Our gobmint now wants to issue new "lifetime" licences that will have a digitised photo of each licence holder in a card. It was leaked to the press a couple of weeks ago that the contract had already been won by polaroid last June.
The legislation, which was passed through Parliament last week was slowed only by the argument over the cost to the licensee. Originally it was to cost us NZ$60 each, but the Gobming showed its merciful side at reduced the cost to $30 odd. This for ANOTHER liftime licence with a photographic ID.
Many of us are unpleased by such action. Already there have been calls to disobediance as part of the legislation makes it a crime Not to carry your licence when driving.

Earl
We're catching up real fast. Reel fast!