Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:00 - ID#237299)
Steve, The other day were you saying you were interested in getting a Sanders machine for your rapid prototyping?

I happened to speak with a former employee of those guys a couple of days ago, and he said to be careful with that company as they were having problems. ( told me that's the main reason he left ) There was no particular angle on his part as he was not trying to sell me anything. He did say that they made probably the best unit for jewelry purposes- but might not be around to provide parts or service. It didn't seem like he was grinding an axe.

This is second hand info- so take it FWIW.

John Disney
(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:06 - ID#24135)
.. send in the clowns ..
.. for all fellow barbarians ..
On the hijacker toasting device .. to avoid
accidentally "flaming" the wife and kiddies .. One
must activate the device by breaking some kind of
a plastic seal ..
... there was a alternative device that turns your
car into a giant electrified "tazer" .. dont know
what happened to that one.
... there are rumours that Hijackers will be added
to the "big five" and the government will sell
licences to hunt them .. wall mounted heads seem
a bit much though ..
... the big problem in RSA is no longer crime ..
it is losing the last rugby match to the poms .. and
breaking the 17 match winning streak .. destroying
the Windies at cricket is cold consolation. I see
the loss of that match as a sign of growing
instability ..
.. The more I think of it the funnier it is to
read how "unstable" it is in RSA from people in a
country where the president is being impeached for
being a lying sexual pervert .. and who scatters
tomahawk missiles around just to get his sorry @ss
off the front page .. tell me all about it ...

silver plate
(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:14 - ID#234253)
Pete your 22:59 0f yesterday 9-12-98
You are spouting more religious venom under the quise of someone's elses heading.

This is a precious metals forum. Get a soapbox ( they don't cost much ) and find a nice street corner and spout from there.

silver plate
(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:23 - ID#234253)
Sorry about the date mistake . It should read 12-12-98

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:26 - ID#222231)
Silver Plate, just replied to T1s request.
If the rest of my 1st post had come up, you would have read
"Here tis, repent and confess you sinner".

Pete {;- ) ) )

I have said before that she has no credibility. Sorry you misunderstood my intentions, and thank you for your venomous rebuke.


(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:27 - ID#386245)
Golden golfer from Japan, has just won his 5th ( 5 out of 5 ) match against the Creme de la Creme of Merkan golfdom. How many of y'all have ever heard of him???

Cheers, Zenophobes-Ain't-Us
ps--US gold exports about to increase. Wink, wink. {:- ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) .

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:27 - ID#431200)
BGR as July 31 1998
The portfolio mix of BGR Precious Metals Inc at July 31 1998 was 50.8% ( 42.4%Can +8.4%U.S ) in North American equities,33.4% in Australian and other Pacific Rim equities, and 15.8% in Latin American equities. Homestake was the only US equities 501,800 shares.I see no shares from Africa in this second quarter report.I should receive soon their third quarter report.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:30 - ID#257148)
Show me the gold

Yes, its true. The Phrase Show me the gold has been trademarked by a twat {see footnote #1 for explanation of this term} yclept Leslie A. Kelly of Les Kelly Enterprises:

And the merkans complain about so many lawyers! Its because youd let some twat {see footnote #1 for explanation of this term} attempt to trademark an ordinary Ingrish phrase Show me the gold. So every use of the phrase would, in theory, allow the holder of the Trade Mark to sue for unauthorised use. Alternatively, the Trade Mark holder, lets call him a twat {see footnote #1 for explanation of this term} could licence the use of the phrase. If you wanna say Show me the gold. you ask this rapacious Kelly for permission.

On second thoughts its a gooooood idea. Im gonna claim Trade Mark Protection over the phrase Good as Gold. I shall make a fortune. Yup. Turning words into gold. That is what an aurator should do, yes? Everytime I hear someone say Good as Gold. or in NZ the somewhat lazier...Good as. I shall put out my aurator hand and demand a golden tithe...

Twat, as in poetry:

``Then, owls and bats,
Cowls and twats,
Monks and nuns, in a cloister's moods,
Adjourn to the oak-stump pantry.''

From Robert Browning's ( 1841 ) Pippa Passes, which also contains the ( untrademarked phrase ) "God's in his Heaven, all's right with the world."

Heh heh..

Robert Browning as Mrs Malaprop.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:32 - ID#257148)
It's true that few have heard of marayama, however lots of people smoke him.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:35 - ID#371380)
Thanks for the heads up. I kind of wondered how a company which employs major brains can survive on 100 units of sales per year. Even at $60,000 per machine. This is not a rapidly expanding field as it is mainly geared towards professional engineer types for heavy manufacturing.

On the other hand, this would be an immensly useful tool to me and I wonder if your friend could tell you how fragile a machine it really is. Would it be worth it to purchase the machine with replacement parts for the more delicate aspects, even if they do go out of business? Or would I be so reliant on technical support that their failure would doom the machine to uselessness?

I would imagine that a larger tooling company would purchase them at some price as it is good technology, maybe just not profitable enough at low volumes to support its own infrastructure needs. Hell, I could buy a few extra machines from the bank if no one took them over!

John Disney
(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:42 - ID#24135)
good one .. salty
For Nick ..
I never heard of him .. but assume I will in future..
.. more good news was that Nick Price won the Million
dollar in RSA beating the tiger .. I believe the
collapse of US golfers may be a sign of growing
instability in North America .. what will happen
when Reagan dies ??

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:43 - ID#286230)
Toronto Kitco Lunch
A great time. I recommend all consider having such a get-together wherever there enough Kitcoites to fill a table. Thanks to Mooney and BMcD for organizing the event and I recommend everyone in flying distance watch for the date of the Spring gathering.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:44 - ID#20359)
Pete, Namaste' gulp and a puff...just realized I forgot to thank you for the post...I

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:52 - ID#225369)
Not only
are the presses running at the Fed,but they may be running in garages and hideaways in your city too.I had my first look at a counterfeit $20 bill this week.It had been through a washing machine.It was faded and had shrunk,slightly.A friend of mine who owns an archery shop took it and had tried to pass it at one of the large discount chain stores and the bill was rejected by the clerk.I marked his bill with my magic marker-pen which identifies counterfeit bills and it was ,after all, a bogus $20 bill.He is going to call the F.B.I. and he knows who passed it to him.At first,he wanted to keep the bill for it's novelty.It was a convincing fake.But no, he was going to call somebody.This is the first time for me to see a forgery like this.Beware-------even of the small bills!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:52 - ID#386245)
G'day Auratorius
Stinking hot in OZ. 35-40 degrees ( 95-104 ) and we are doing our best to keep fluid consumption up. I am doing my part.

Gold has now joined the deflation chain gang. It held up well while all around it tanked. I can't see the bottom anymore. It keeps getting deeper. I have just re-read J.K. Galbraith for a clue. I am stumped by the political and economic stupidity of the PTB. They say that history always repeats. They are correct. Know why?? When given a choice the PTB will always be myopic. Hypermetropia shall never be part of the human condition.

EB--help us out here.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:56 - ID#431200)
Dynamic Global Precious Metals has the same management than BGR
Dundee Dynamic Global Precious Metals ( open end fund ) has the same management than BGR ( close end fund ) Holding Analysis as of: Nov 30 1998Canada 49.5% United States6.6% United Kingdom 1.0% Mexico 4.0% South & Central America2.5% Other Pacific36.4% Africa 0.0%

Fund Sponsor: Dundee Dynamic Mutual Funds
Telephone: 416 365 5621
Tollfree: 800 268 8186

(Sun Dec 13 1998 00:59 - ID#257148)
There's a tail there. A few years ago it was reported in Japan that Lonnie Donnegan {a British singer who had a hit with "My old man's a dustman"} had a heart attack. To a Japanese ear, Lonnie Donnegan sounded like Ronald Reagan. The Nikkie took a dive for a morning session, until the "truth" was revealed.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:00 - ID#222231)
Tolerant1, no thanks neccessary
I sent the url for your own good. ( GRIN ) . BTW, I want to thank all for the tremendous advice regarding gold and other precious thingies. Where else could one play the PM market and make such tremendous profits?

Can I come over for dinner tommorow nite and the rest of the year?
Does one live by bread alone, you bettcha.

For Petes sake!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:06 - ID#286230)
Retro Munching

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:08 - ID#45173)
Repost: Goldbugs...
Estragon: I can't go on like this.
Vladimir: That's what you think.
- Samuel Beckett, Waiting For Godot

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:12 - ID#237299)
TheMissingLink: I shall try to get a hold of him
I think the main reason they don't sell a lot of them *is* the cost. Once a few service providers got them and started producing protoypes to order- everyone else reasoned "why should we lay out the dough when we can pay by the piece and not get locked into the technology" It's actually a very good point.

He also said the learning curve was enormous and that freeform modeling was iffy. Best for snap lines and regular forms ( spheres, cubes and cylinders ) But said that despite this Tiffany and other larger manufacturers used them.

I'll see what I can find out.

good night.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:13 - ID#45173)
Is there a fool-proof way to tell a fake bill from a real one? Aside from washing it :- ) I've seen mechants hold them under black lights, smudge the ink with a pencil eraser, etc. Do you know of a simple method? I've sometimes seen odd or crummy-looking bills and I'd like to know if someone's passing me a bad one. The last time I got a really strange-looking bill on closer inspection it turned out to by nearly 50 years old, printed in 1950.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:14 - ID#386245)
Our northern mates have got a corner on the ethnocentricity market. Antipodeans are much more aware of events outside their own borders. We also have the advantage of news programs that are worldly in scope. I saw your hijack fryer on the news last night. Am now waiting for the SA chip-maker to go with it. Hijackers and chips. All in the convenience of your own car.

John Disney
(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:22 - ID#24135)
.. another good one ..
salty ..
it DOES sound like ronald reagan ..
what was that one .. lock island rine ..
thatsa mighty good load .. thats load
to lide ..

nick .. what will happen to OZ when
Frazier dies .. or did he ??

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:22 - ID#257148)
Got it. A variation on the the Drive-in hamburger joint. More a "Drive-up to the burghers of your town and roast 'em."

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:28 - ID#43460)
obsidian, themissinglink
$60,000? For a machine which would be obsolete in 2 years? That is what $82 dollars per day if you work 7 days a week? So you would have to add nearly $165 bucks per prototype if you made one every other day. That is a lot of extra work needed. I realize you are good but are you that prolific? Don't let me discourage you though. I am the worlds worst at accumulating tools and would probably do the same thing if I thought my wife wouln't shoot me. Thought she would when I bought my vacuum machine and DROPPED it taking it out of the box! Luckily it wasn't hurt.

( 8-^] )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:30 - ID#343259)
John Disney
...I fooled you, I fooled you, I got all pig iron, I got all pig iron...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:33 - ID#386245)
John Disney
I talked to Ronald Reagan, many years ago, and found him quite impressive. I was struck by the huge number of minders around him. This was when he was running for governor of Calif. and again after he had won. Stage managed for Prez??? You betcha!!!! Guvnorship was the stepping stone. The PTB knew what they were about ( Amerkan politics has been stage-managed for a long time. This one even beat Joe getting his son John to the Prezzie's chair ) .

I was even more impressed by Nancy. She SHOULD'VE been Prez. A grand lady whom I shall never forget!! Cheers, Nick.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:33 - ID#225369)
You,too,can buy one of those pens from either your bank,or someone there will tell you where to buy one.When a bill is marked with the pen ,the mark will either be black or yellow.Black is bad.Apart from this method,examine the older bills for tiny red and blue hairs in the paper the bill is made of.These hairs were not visible in the fake.Green ink comes off the real bills as well,when the bill is rubbed onto plain white paper.With the new bills,hold them up to the light and a faint likeness of the president who graces the bill will be visible ,I believe,in the area to the right of the president.I also know that the new $100 bills have metallic strips laced into the paper on the left side of the pictured president.Other than these,I know of no other test.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 01:41 - ID#43460)
Themissinglink, would you know of a seller of large silver disks?
I have been buying from Rio Grande, but they took them out of their catalog this year. Already looked at Barts online list and he doesn't have them listed. It takes a LONG time to cut them out of sheets using a number 2 blade, nibblers waste metal and I don't like the edge damage done by sheet metal shears. ( 8-^] )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 02:00 - ID#386245)
JD@Frasier dies
Still alive and kicking mate. Now your REAL point is Mandela, n'est pas??
Business as usual, after a quick dip in RSA shares.

John Disney
(Sun Dec 13 1998 02:36 - ID#24135)
thats it nick ..
.. well you found me out !!
.. point was the impact of
Sir Malcolm dying would be
about the same as Mandela
passing away here .. In other
words .. a non-event ..
Nelson is probably the nicer guy ..
.. although I voted for malcolm
I thought he was a big stuffed
.. I always liked Reagan a lot ..

(Sun Dec 13 1998 02:52 - ID#386245)
When Mandela kicks the proverbial bucket, the market will tank, very briefly. I would be a buyer on tank week. Everyone would then realize that life goes on. Don't know much about Mbeki, but presume he is smarter than Rhodesia's leaders.

They've changed the name, Nick.

Oh, have they?? Pardon mois.
Damned good show by Nick Price today!!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 03:56 - ID#169332)
BGR (BPT.A), Canadian closed-end fund
Re BGR Precious Metals ( BPT.A ) . A number of posts last night about this Canadian closed-end fund. Several contained errors as to BGR's mix of holdings ( which one later post corrected ) : I don't recall BGR ever including South African holdings, at least not in more than ten years. The reason BGR sells at a large discount is because of the significant percentage of junior and mid-sized companies it holds. It is traditionally a late-starter in bull markets for gold shares; and, a decent mover after bull markets are established. The NAV has varied accordingly.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 05:20 - ID#256365)
Mexico Approves Bank Bailout
In the US in the 1880's I think, there was a Free Silver movemnet. The Mexican protestors remind me of that. It was a defaltionary thing.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 05:51 - ID#26793)
Deflation, layoffs have Brits calling for more rate cuts; three were not enough to fix it

(Sun Dec 13 1998 06:02 - ID#26793)
Y2K may trigger a panic; note German exposure via Russia

(Sun Dec 13 1998 07:47 - ID#284255)
Y2K bug is indeed a Y99 management problem

Email chatter
I don't know about you, but I tend to get a little spooked when government
officials start secretly planning for martial law.

Robert Bennett ( R-Utah ) , chair of the Senate's Y2K committee, has asked the
US military of its plans for martial law in the event of Year 2000
disruptions. I've temporarily placed the transcript of that June 1998
hearing online so you can read it yourself in full.

My article:
The transcript:

"Inter arma silent leges."


(Sun Dec 13 1998 07:50 - ID#263465)

Hi folks,long time no post...anyone here holding
MDIN shares? Interesting news release late friday
among the news the company is requesting shareholders to register their shares...comments anyone? What about this company,they for real? Last trade was.07 cents....

(Sun Dec 13 1998 07:59 - ID#93232)
Yes, martial law is spooky. So is anarchy. Here in the states, the legal provisions for martial law have been in place since Carter got FEMA through Congress in the late 70's. Y2K could be quite a panic. Martial law may be the least of our problems. IANW ( It's a new world ) .

(Sun Dec 13 1998 08:02 - ID#26793)
Home prices falling in New Zealand in spite of rate cuts

(Sun Dec 13 1998 08:58 - ID#411440)
@ Donald: Those idiots in the Ontario Legislature have
downloaded massive fiscal costs on to municipal tax payers, at
the same time as going to a market value assessment system for
recalculating municipal ( including residential ) tax rates.
Many people have seen their house taxes rise by 600% I wonder
how these people will feel paying 6 fold taxes to hold land when
that land has a market value only 1 tenth its present value in
the depths of a deflation. People will walk away from their
land just like in the last depression, and the property will
be confiscated. This is confiscation of real wealth by government.
Want to hear the real irony? This is all part of the Mike
Harris "Common Sense Revolution." It will mean confiscation of
private wealth ( real wealth, not the paper variety ) by government
without compensation. This is a very right wing form of government
with characteristics more in keeping with the Reform Party here in
Canada than the Progressive Conservatives. Even communist
governments nationalize property with compensation to owners.
Here in Ontario, I predict confiscation without compensation.
You tell me, which is worse, ultra right wing, or ultra left?????

John Disney
(Sun Dec 13 1998 09:08 - ID#24135)
the best form of Government ..
rhody ..
is NONE whatsoever ..

(Sun Dec 13 1998 09:16 - ID#29048)
A must read...
Bill Buckler's last issue for 1998 is ready. If you don't subscribe, at least get this one issue.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 09:26 - ID#28994)
Market value assessment was in place long before Mike Harris showed up. The Toronto area was the last to have it implemmented.It was started by Bob Rae and David Peterson ( the left ) .Toronto can start paying like the rest.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 09:35 - ID#411440)
@ John Disney: I think even Mike Harris would agree with
you. The Harris government is composed of a series of small
business types who ran their operations and paid business taxes,
but who resented the omnipotent presence of government taxation
and regulation. They began to perceive government itself as
the enemy. They created the "COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION" which
holds that gov't is the enemy. They proceed to destroy it from
within. They are essentially nihilist. They close hospitals,
schools, legal aid, cut welfare, the courts, download highway
repairs, close parks, and RAISE TAXES. Before you rush to say
that's sounds good to me, consider: welfare is a cheap form of
social control ( cheaper than police, and the army ) because those
who can't function, will take with force of arms, and skyrocket
crime rates, unless welfare pays them off. ) School closings
means private schools for everyone, yet only one person in ten
would be able to afford this type of system. This was abandoned
in the 19th century in western industrialized countries, as
inadequate to support a modern industrial society. Closing
hospitals means replacement with private health care. Private
systems ( like in the United States ) offer no better service, yet
cost the consumer 2 1/2 times the Canadian rate for health care.
We would lose our automobile industry, as it is the gov't run
health care system that gives Canada its competative advantage
in the auto industry. Closing parks cans our tourist industry.
( New Brunswick did this, and was quick to refund the provincial
parks and reopen new ones as American tourism dried up ) And
so it goes. Ultra right wing governments serve the rich, not
society as a whole. Overconcentration of power and money in
few hands leads to economic and political instability.
People who believe that no government is the best government,
need to spend a little time in Bosnia, or Rwanda, or maybe if
Y2K is as bad as some here, think, that may change their minds.
Gotta go.


Mo in To
(Sun Dec 13 1998 09:36 - ID#347205)
Market Value Assessment
Why on earth should Torontonians or anyone else have to shell out more to support our bloated governments? Those in outlying areas would do better to direct their venom at those who created it..the greedy politicians. Makes no sense to me, two wrongs don't make a "right", except to Mikie and the boys!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 10:02 - ID#20359)
...there are always going to be people who desire to tell others what to do with their
hard earned money...make the proposition smaller...if you were eating at a restaurant and 3 patrons tried to tell the remaining 17 patrons that they had to help pay for everyone elses meal the three patrons would be thrown out...

So too should the people that tell others what to do with their salaries...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 10:07 - ID#284255)
'Martial law' rushed for Y2K chaos

Seems like the topic's the flavour of the week on some of the Y2k forums.

But there's plenty of other concerns if things get to bad.

The more I look, the more I can see potential mountains of problems.
It seems like if we fall over the edge, then all hell will break loose.
If we just go to the edge and come back then I'll breath one big sigh of relief.
And who really knows how close to the edge we will go???

Start Hoarding Now Government Tells Families

(Sun Dec 13 1998 10:10 - ID#20359)
Y2K omen...hey!...Dino...get back here!...
Panel: Dutch pilot barred from airport for singing 'Flintstones' theme

Copyright  1998 Nando Media
Copyright  1998 The Associated Press

THE HAGUE, Netherlands ( December 13, 1998 01:57 a.m. EST ) -- A Dutch pilot was illegally barred from an airport in the northern Netherlands for continually singing the theme to "The Flintstones" over his radio, an appeals board has ruled.

Wim de Nijs, better known in Holland as Capt. Flintstone, had taken his case to the Dutch Council of State after the airport in the city of Groningen had forbidden him from taking off or landing there from March 1996 to July 1997.

Last year, De Nijs was briefly jailed by authorities who said he tied up a frequency used by air traffic controllers when he bellowed out the theme song to the popular cartoon series -- "Flintstones, meet the Flintstones, they're a modern stone-age family" -- in English for 20 minutes at a time.

The Council of State conceded the need to keep the airways safe, but said Friday the ban was too harsh.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 10:23 - ID#286230)
Must have been something in the water.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 10:24 - ID#20359)
William Jefferson Clinton is a BOLD faced liar...let Jack's biggest ass prove the below comment...
"Apparently somewhere around three-quarters of the American people think that's the right thing to do," Clinton said.

Cage Rattler
(Sun Dec 13 1998 10:40 - ID#33184)
Economic Confidence Model - Martin Armstrong (Osaka Nov 98)

(Sun Dec 13 1998 11:06 - ID#20359)
BETSY HART: Well, Clinton could have written it ...

( December 11, 1998 11:15 a.m. EST ) -- I'm sure that with all the extra mail the post office gets at Christmas time, things can get really jumbled up. But really, what I found in my mailbox the other day was too much. Somehow I had gotten the president's personal Christmas letter! I was stunned as I read...

Dear Family and Friends:

What a year it's been! ( I know, I know, you are used to getting our annual family Christmas letter from both Hillary and me. But suffice it to say it got frosty around here long before winter set in, so I'm on my own this year. ) You know as I was writing this I wondered if I should be so candid in print -- in case it leaked out, or something. But then I thought -- hey -- the American people will let me get away with anything, so why not?

Anyway, can you believe that after all that's happened this past year I'm not only still in office but I'm more popular than ever? Instead of me, it's Newt Gingrich and Ken Starr who got tarred and feathered! I mean, when this Monica thing broke in January I thought my Arkansas goose was cooked. But then Harry Thomasson taught me how to do that finger wavin' denial of it all, and I started to think I might have a chance.

And Hillary -- well that appearance on "Today" was tops. Wow, I never knew quite how much she loved power until she started with that right-wing conspiracy thing. Yep, when she began the trashing of Ken Starr, well, then I knew we were on a roll.

Of course, as all of you close to us know, the stained dress was probably the low point of the year. When Hillary found out that people could actually prove what she already knew -- boy was she mad! How could I be so dumb as to leave physical evidence? My New Year's resolution is to be a lot more careful from now on -- no more dress stains!

Anyway, I really thought I was a goner then. But there is just no end to what the American people take from me! Remember when even Democrats said if I lied before the grand jury last August that I'd be out, out, out? What a joke! They don't call me Slick Willie for nothing. All those legal gymnastics, like the one where I said I didn't really have sex with Monica Lewinsky, were pretty brilliant if you ask me.

Sure I did have to apologize a bunch of times before people said I finally got it right. The "I've sinned" thing before the liberal religious leaders was especially great stuff. ( I think I really got the lip-biting just right that time. ) Now a lot of people have wondered how I could be really contrite if I continue to have Ken Starr trashed and not admit to what everybody knows I did -- lie before the grand jury, for starters. They're right, but you know what? Like I said the American people don't care so hey -- rock and roll baby!

See, I figure I'm like some kind of a Hollywood celebrity now. Tom Hanks maybe. The little folks don't expect us to live by the same rules they do.

And who could have foreseen those elections? I wish you could have been with us for the bongo drumming at the White House that night! See folks kept saying that Democrats would be so ashamed of me, they'd stay home on Election Day. Like the Republicans did because of Watergate in 1974. Wrongo! Who says the Democrats have shame? Did you see how they went after Ken Starr on the first day of those impeachment hearings? John Conyers, Maxine Waters, Barney Frank, Bob Wexler -- talk about not having any scruples. I love these people!

I don't know what's going to happen now -- maybe they will pass an article or two of impeachment in the House. But do they think I'll be upset by their high and mighty moral judgment? What a joke. I don't care. They'll never actually get rid of me that way. And anyway, I'll just say the whole thing was a partisan witch hunt.

So, yeah, with a few more weeks to go this year is looking pretty great after all.

I just hope that 1998 has been as good for you and your family as it has been for me.

Happy Holidays,

Your Friend Bill

Copyright  1998 Nando Media
Copyright  1998 Scripps Howard

Charleston Gold Bug
(Sun Dec 13 1998 11:20 - ID#344389)
Princeton Economics Calling for Possible Crash in Gold Futures!
See Dec 11, 1998 Wolrd Metal Markets Watch.
How accurate has he been ?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 11:55 - ID#222231)
Tolerant1, namaste and a huff and a puff and a gulp, gulp to ya
Am I to asssume you don't like WJC? Remember, to have so much hate for anyone is like burning your house down to get rid of a rat. ( grin ) I feel the same as you and that alone should make you wonder. he he

Any hew, I posted this at ( you know where ) and would like your unobtrusive comments.

"Friend of Another ( 10/8/98; 07:24:37MDT - Msg ID:443 )
Is the position of LTCM in the clear?
ALL: A quick note for today. There are several stories that LTCM ( and most other hedge funds ) are covering their short positions.

NOTE: ( This is a point I believe many are missing )


THEY ARE NOT! What they are doing ( as the NY Post article below shows ) is further hedging in the paper gold markets to attempt to control the coming ( huge ) loses! That will not work as the BIS has changed the rules".
You can refresh your memory of the article by John Dizzard ( NY POST ) by
returning to post #465, 10/09/98

If they are not unwinding ( pretty obvious by the action of commodities lately ) , and as PH in LA kindly pointed out to me that the BIS will not allow the POG to break the $280/oz barrier by buying at that point.

What will be the consequences?

1 ) These banks and funds will continue to dig a deeper hole for themselves because to keep the POG low they will have to keep shorting at or below this $280/oz level in order to keep the scam going. ( Means the BIS will be scarfing up the physical at bargain basement rates )

2 ) Because of the imbalances that will be created between an immovable
object ( PAPER GOLD ) and an all powerful force ( PHYSICAL GOLD ) , something
will have to give.

3 ) The fundpigs and bankpigs are now at the point of no return. Who will win? That point is pretty obvious also.

4 ) The US$ strength is decreasing slowly but surely which under normal
circumstances should make the POG react inversely, yet the POG has not.
Sooner or later this anomaly will be corrected. The question is "WHEN"? Any comments appreciated.--Pete.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 12:26 - ID#376309)
Charleston - there work is good but you need to understand how that particular peice of info works. It is not passed on how they really feel but based solely on the closing price in relationship to momentum model. momentum is usually weak at the bottom and strong at the top.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 12:32 - ID#43460)
Pete, such a slow day!
You might want to look up some exchange rates. I notice the USD is steady against the Rupee but in a declining trend against the Euro and Irish Punt and off from its highs against the NZD.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 12:54 - ID#222231)
That's the only reason I pick slow days to post. If one is desparate, Kitcoites will read anything just for action.

Look at this index: for an eye opener.

Best regards,


(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:02 - ID#20359)
Pete, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...and so here we go eh...
In my meek mannerlet me try and address your postwhich in and of itself is like a question in a zip fileby that I mean once an attempt is made to respond to the ever expanding and voluminous aspects it is clearly seen that the questions reach out like so many prehensile outgrowths touching upon several different areas of thought and speculation and all in an instant

It is my contention that the entire LTCM situation was criminalbut there were too many big institutions and individuals involved so the situation was swept under the rughoweverthis merely deflected the outcome and allows the various parties to cover their tracks and actions as best they can before the truth of the situation is known

Given that gold is at a price of $280.00 US it allows not only the BIS to purchase the metal at an artificially low price but any other entityas well as individuals the world overwhich is obviously occurring as bullion purchases are up around the globe coupled with the huge movement of gold in the LBMA

I disagree that paper gold is an immovable objectI think you have it backwardsphysical gold is an immovable object while paper gold is merely a powerful force

Regarding the bank and fund dirtbagsthe age old axiom remains truepossession is 9 10ths of the lawthe holders of paper will be eviscerated while the possessors of gold will remain whole

The timing of this terminus remains a mystery as there are so many factorshowever I would stipulate that within the next 60 days there should be tremendous upheaval resulting in the price of gold moving upwards

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:13 - ID#20359)
Pete, Namaste' gulp and a address my thoughts on Clintler...
I think he represents Jack's ass at its zenith and is a coward/liar/sociopath/traitor and all that represents the dissolution of what is the Constitution...Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:13 - ID#26793)
Japanese stocks face a gloomy week after one bank is nationalized and more are suspect

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:13 - ID#371380)
Obsidian, Gag-N-Rad
Who said the machine would be obsolete in two years? If I went forward with this new technology, I would expect that I would not ever go back to hand carving unless a specific job required it.

As to the profitability, I agree with your estimates about the high cost of a wax. If I did one a day for a year would cost $170 per wax. But this does not account for something.

The precision of the tool will allow me to do things I could not do today and if treated as another employee, would increase my output. I see no reason why I cannot use this tool to make watches with backs which snap sealed. Today this takes large tooling and infrastructure costs. That is why watch manufacturers are large national and global entities. Large volume is needed to recoup these immense capital expenditures.

With this tool, I can design small batch highly precision jewelry watches and compete in price on a local or regional level. This includes marketing.

This has profound implications for society as a whole. The industrial revolution begat and rewarded those who could operate on the largest scale, both for manufacturing activities and marketing. This new prototyping technology removes the benefits of being large.

I expect the next 20 years to see society get ripped apart and rebuilt as large government and corporations use their built up capital and power to try to maintain their power in the face of this decentralizing force. I expect large to lose.

Cars might be profitable to manufacture in lots of 10,000 instead of millions. That has profound implications for the power base of society. Virtual weapons may also be stored in file format which can be produced directly in metal through laser sintering or in ceramic using 3D printing. This has enormous security implications which are not a benefit to centralization.

Maybe this technology will become regulated as fringe groups scan the 50 or so parts of a weapon and store these files on their hard drives and floppies to be made at the nearest service bureau.

But for me, I figure I can output unique jewelry designs as fast as my brain can imagine them, which up until now, I was slowed down by my hands and the hours in the day.

Lets keep this discussion going.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:18 - ID#20359)
oh yeah...for another great call in my prediction list
the NY Giants will beat the Denver Broncos...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:21 - ID#26793)
Housing in Israel experiencing deflation

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:44 - ID#237299)
Gagnrad: your 1:28, 1:41
Think about your own equations and you will see how the economics make sense. Can you carve an exquisitely detailed wax in a day? Would not $165 be a very reasonable price?

I am currently finishing up a wedding ring with delicate Celtic knotwork carvings. It is extremely complicated. This wax took approximately 150 hours- and the client is paying a large sum for it. One of the prototyping machines could print the same wax in about 30 unsupervised hours. Also, if it was a series, ( for stones ranging from 1/4 carat up to 1  carat ) , the machine could be programed to scale the model correctly and print the entire series; all identical and all to correct size. Surely you can see how this is like a dream come true to a manufacturer.

However, it only makes sense to someone like Jostens, ( they make the ubiquitous class rings ) , where it enables them to tool up for a production run of rings for a high-school in every size on short notice. It require a dedicated CAD department and staff trained in the software which runs $10,000 to $15,000.

As for your request for silver disks. If this is a size you use repeatedly, go to your local machine shop and get a disk punch made to the correct dimensions; it will quickly pay for itself.

Since this is gold related, I hope Bart will forgive the bandwidth. If he objects, we should probably take these discussions over to the jewelry site.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:49 - ID#228136)
Gold Analysis
Tough call here. I posted a week ago that we should be hitting support in a couple of days. It took until Friday. My analysis suggests that we are right at an important pivot point now. The next move up or down will tell the tale. If we breakdown here gold should head lower over the medium term. A move up would indicate a chance for that run that Glenn has forecast. The XAU and TSE gold index have dropped below support. Could this be tax loss selling? Possibly. The dollar has fallen out of bed and has broken support to the downside. Thats a plus. The general stock market is correcting but took a bounce off of the 200 ma. It could go either way here and a move down would be bullish for gold. But, counting the stock market out has been hazardous to one's financial health for a long time. Finally commodities have been plunging indicating a worldwide slowdown in economic activity. Since gold tends to lead the pack, it has some catching up to do. On the other hand the CRB on my model has pegged out and should have a temporary respite and perhaps a bounce here. In summary, gold could go either way. I am short gold stocks right now but will probably go flat on Monday until a direction/trend change takes shape.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:52 - ID#237299)
Steve, I didn't see your post- or I would not have covered the same ground.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 13:52 - ID#373403)
Rio Grande has sterling silver discs up to 2" in diameter in 22 and 24 gauge. $5 and $4 respectively. 1-800-545-6566.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:06 - ID#373403)
I think you added to the discussion greatly. Myself, I am just being a futurist as my class in 3D solid modeling starts next month. I have no direct knowledge of the limitations of this technology as I am not using it yet.

But if it works the way I think it does, this is a sea change in the benefits of economies of scale in both industry and government. Rees and Moog touched on this technology specifically when they were talking about how small disident groups could leverage technology to put large centralized governments back on their heels.

Their point was that most governments focus on projecting power in their weapons systems but that technology would change the strategy back to being able to put on a good defense as small groups gained access to sophisticated offensive weapons.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:17 - ID#222231)
Tolerant1,namaste and huff and a puff and a gulp, gulp to ya.
You forgot to add pyschopath to your list. My stomach churns when I hear the nauseus defenders of WJC on major media distort the truth beyond reason. The brain dead, brain washed and ignorant of America have no one to blame but themselves and in time we will pay the consequences. IMHO.

When will the scam end herr Tolerant? I hope your prognosis is better than your last prediction, Giants over Broncos, dah. What spread are you using? 50 points?

Best regards,


PS: It's really not WJC, but those that put him into power and pull the strings. When they're done with him, ANOTHER such as Reagan, Bush or WJC will serve their purposes. Bush's son is being groomed by the media to be our next president, same cloth as RR, GB and WJC, different approach, ironic is'nt it? This is a fact without any doubt in my mind.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:20 - ID#219363)
CAD and Wax
As with other tools that help business people, I don't see a rapid prototyping system as a competitive advantage to jewelers wishing to increase their share of the market, just as yet another creation that pushes some jewelers out of business. It's like the web and technology businesses. A technology business gets no competitive advantage by being on the web, but not being on the web will destroy you. Another good example is printing and computers. Sure, you can run a printing shop with old fashioned printing equipment, but the folks who are now using computers, scanners, and high-tech printing equipment are forcing their brothers out of business, you have to use the latest tools to stay in business. I suspect it won't be long before someone making jewelry who doesn't have a system to create wax from CAD will be out of business, and you'll have to have one if you want to play the game. A new revolution in tools doesn't give you a competitive advantage for long, the window of opportunity is small. Sure, there are brilliant jewelers will amazing designs who will always be in business no matter what processes they use to do their work, and there will always be writers who sit down with paper and pen and pound out a great novel, but why start out behind the curve, why start with a handicap when you can use the tools and do a better job ? Anyone who argues that a writer using pen and paper to do their job instead of a word processing package, saying that they do a better job, well, you're just a purist, and you're not arguing from a perspective of reason, but from a perspective of the heart. It's the world we live in. Use the tools that are out there, you aren't betraying your discipline. Look at it this way: If you use the newest and most efficient tools, you'll crush the people who depend on the tools for competitive advantage in your market, because you have the background and wisdom to use the tools most effectively. Don't let someone else who uses the new high-tech tools bury your business just because they can make more widgets faster than you can.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:24 - ID#284379)
Platinum follows silver?
I have heard that platinum usually follows silver on the charts. Has anyone else heard this or know of a better relationship if there is one?

I follow the gold discussions here all the time, but have not seen much discussion on the white metals.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:32 - ID#222231)
All, seeing I have a captive, slow audience, thought you might enjoy this recent post
somewhere else. A little but so true ditty.

Peter Asher ( 12/13/98; 12:00:53MDT - Msg ID:1316 )

Shill Shock

The Dollar is down but so is the gold.

We wonder why the metal's being sold.

Advisors are printing distortions so bold,

That holders keep doing whatever they're told.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:33 - ID#285430)
Platinum and Silver
I've heard it said that if the actual industrial uses for the metals
are the only things considered, then platinum has far more similarities
with silver than with gold. I've also heard that there is a correlation
between palladium and platinum, because there are industrial uses for
platinum which can be satisfied with a larger quantity of palladium.

In a more general sense, all of the metals can follow each other as
investors get out of the stock market and find other places to sink
their cash.

Frankly you won't see me invest in palladium. I don't like any
"ium" metals. They spook me. Sounds radiocative or somethin' : )


(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:40 - ID#350358)
What pays the bills for the service industry ....
Something that came up in a discussion some time ago came on like a light bulb a couple of days ago. The man I heard this from was a manufacturing engineer at a well known manufacturer here in the states, although he he grew up in Holland during the war, so I respect his wide range of experience.

What he said was "Wealth is only 'created' through three basic actions,

Mining, Manufacturing, and Agriculture. The rest of our actions can be found to somehow support these exercises."

Does this mean that if these three segments of our society are in trouble, the rest of our activities cannot continue to flourish?

I think it was '86 when we had the discussion. ( that's 1986 )


(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:50 - ID#219363)
I think it's all just a matter of perspective and am not at all surprised that a manufacturing expert would see manufacturing as the creator of wealth. A mother could just as easily see the birth of her child as the only way of actually creating wealth, and might see manufacturing, mining, and agriculture as industries that support her wealth creation. I think it's all in how you look at it. It wasn't that long ago that people made a great argument for "human labor" being the essense of wealth creation, and they had some good points. I tend to see "vision" or "dreams" as being the essense of wealth, for without them, we wander the woods picking berries off the bushes.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:50 - ID#20359)
Pete, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...
the Giants will win...yup...uh huh...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:54 - ID#43460)
Themissing link re Rio Grande
But they stopped carrying 4" through 12" disks! That is the problem!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 14:58 - ID#20359)
it is a moot point...
until the term wealth is defined...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:00 - ID#219363)
@MiloTrder: More
As an example of my own perspective that "vision" and "dreams", or put another way, leadership, is the essense of all wealth, I give you China. China has a lot of mining, manufacturing and agricultural resources, they also have people resources ( to discount the mother's perspective that making babies is the essense of wealth ) . But all those resources haven't made China the most important center of world commerce, it doesn't make China the most wealthy nation on earth, they are in essense, wandering the woods picking berries off the bushes. What would make China the most awesome force to ever grace the planet's surface, the country with the most wealth, would be leadership. If China had the dream, she'd have the reality. Back to previous discussions, we could say that the Knights Templar were one of the most wealthy groups on the earth during their time, and they didn't do mining, manufacturing, or agriculture. They just had a dream, they believed they could be wealthy. And so it was.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:08 - ID#93207)
Fidelity Select Gold Chart
Fidelity Select Gold & precious Metals
overhead resistance at:

Trade Weighted US dollar chart at:

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:09 - ID#20359)
becoming mootless...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:09 - ID#43460)
Obsidian, TheMissingLink
Points conceded. It seems more reasonable to either buy an obsolete 2 year old mode from someone else, lease one or retrofit a small milling machine than to put out such major bucks up front. Besides, hireing more workers is not awlays bad. I know one fellow, name of Tommy, who sells costume jewelry I don't want to name his trademark online, as I don't want to advertise for him but the initials of the trademark are D.C. He hired family members to do production so has plenty of time to design. And his in-laws can't nag him or he'd fire them! ( 8-^] )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:14 - ID#93207)
Correct URL ....Sorry
Fidelity Select Gold & precious Metals
overhead resistance at:

Trade Weighted US dollar chart at:

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:16 - ID#222231)
Tolerant1, namaste & a huff & a puff & a gulp gulp to ya
Boy, am I wealthy! Especially when I finally find out I can eat my eagles and morgans. Heil Klinton.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:25 - ID#35757)
Giants & Broncos. Truely amazing. Is this prescience, or merely home team spirit?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:26 - ID#249244)
John Disney
Thanks, brother John. I was positive that RSA does not use
system of quotas, but your confirmation is important. It seems
that some folks do not realize that it is just dangerous to
apply normal capitalistic principles to "quoted commodity",
like, go platinum, it seems to be less
of "political metal"...

lefty kiwi
(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:28 - ID#32176)
re SWP1 re your Dec 12 19.30
good point , it is just that he has never spoken to me out loud in a voice that I could physcally hear as he apparently speaks to Linda .
However perhaps he is answering my prayers ( see below )

re ARMGOLD your Dec 12 19.18
Viagra definitely not required here either.
On 19th November I had much needed Haemooroid ( spelling ? ) operation
The surgeon told me internally it was very Vascular
Very happy to report that blood supply previously going to those veins
is now available elsewhere , a very happy side effect to the cure .
Wife is all smiles .
as aurator would say ..... Good as ( gold )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:31 - ID#249244)
Old Soldier
Soviet SVD seems to be just about perfect
full-power .30 cal semi-auto rifle,
both with scope and w/o it...Needless to say,
it also never jams...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:35 - ID#350358)
Envy (well berry pick' is agriculture ...*g*)
I agree with the leadership, visions, dreams, and ideas such as our manifest destiny during our covering from east to west.

But it could be argued that the dreams existed with these folks who came here and were only able to put them to reality when given the mix of freedom and abundance of resources here.

But this is a little beside the point it think he made as I understood it.

If we back up to 'food, shelter, and clothing' as the basic material needs of society, understanding that bread, water to not make up a happy and fullfilled existance, the root of a society is based here and without these the higher level can't be reached. China's wealth will come from a mix of the three. Japan's came essentially from manufacturing. Sure there are a lot of ways to become wealthy, but the physical monetary wealth ( real wealth ) we seek to achieve is generally created in these ways.

This is not to belittle any 'service' type activity we perform, and certainly the efficiency added by marketing, shipping, etc. etc. etc. is worthwhile, and in fact necessary for the market to exist.

This isn't an answer and the whole subject could be debated at length. Just an interesting thought while looking at a bigger picture.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:38 - ID#290172)
'Strange Doings' Update---

For three ( 3 ) days Oanda {Switzerland, they take money seriously ) has had our monitored universe completely frozen. ( That is XEU, USD, DEM, JPY, CNY, XAU, XPT and XAG. ) Not a change, not a decimal, not a tick, nada same bid/ask, everything EXACTLY the same.

Saturday 12/12/09 released, and there is movement, and in an interesting mode: plat back at 350.8 ( having been frozen for three days at 347.250; gold back to 291.950 ( having been frozen for three days at 294.150 ) .

Either a big bank or hedge fund ( both ) has disrupted the fin/sys or ...

The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, Gang aft agley, An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain, For promis'd joy!

So our question must be, "How well have they pasted the paper back together?" Origami time. Critical days ahead...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:40 - ID#20359)
morbius, Namaste' gulp and a puff...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:53 - ID#20359)

(Sun Dec 13 1998 15:59 - ID#20359)
yowzer!...Broncos lose...
Next up...a rise in price for gold...yEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEhAAAAAAA!!!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:03 - ID#219363)
I see your point and it is a good one. But it could also be argued that those people had dreams of wealth and that America was the place that offered the least resistance to that vision. *grin*. I suspect that the people who wanted wealth when America was built would have found it regardless. To me, that is the essense of wealth. An example I can use for that view is the typical entrepreneur. You can take a good business person, someone who truly believes that he or she will be wealthy, take everything from that person, and they'll soon be wealthy again. I suspect you could drop them into the sands of Egypt, and if they could make it to a village before dying, it wouldn't take long for wealth to find them once again. Another example I can give is that of the typical lottery winner, two years later, they're right back where they started.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:13 - ID#290456)
There's more going on out there than you think

My source indicates that the event in the SW U.S. occurred on December 11.

IRIS Seismic Monitor

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:13 - ID#35757)
What do you think of the people who have won the lottery more than once? There are quite a few of them.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:20 - ID#237299)
Envy: your 14:20
I think the equation needs to include quality of life- not just competitive advantage. If someone is *already* a manufacturer on a large scale employing a crew of artisans to crank out prototypes for molding- then by all means this type of technology is warranted, and a competitive necessity. But otherwise it's a monster with it's own demands.

If the capital outlay is, say $100,000 for equipment, software, and training- and the annual increase in payroll for the CAD operator ( s ) is another $30,000 to $100,000- suddenly you are forced to keep full employment for that money. You've got real costs in repayment of indebtedness, ( or lost opportunity if you use your own money ) ; a slow amortization; technology shock as the bar is always raised higher; added salesmen to sell the new product in order to pay for the technology; employee costs and headaches- ad infinitum. Your not talking about small change here- it's serious money.

I had those headaches once; made a lot of money, but never slept well, drank a lot, and hated every minute of it- but had lots of bright and shiny toys as consolation.

Now I make far less money, sleep like a baby, and have time to mess around writing posts to Kitco.

The technology does have it's merits; no question about that- ( in fact, I find it intriguing ) , but it depends on the appetite and ambition of the slave. I've charged up enough mountains already.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:23 - ID#20359)
SilverBaron, Namaste' gulp and a puff tp ya...o' the government boys are
setting off nuclear there anything surprising about this?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:31 - ID#26793)
Nervous week for investors ahead

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:39 - ID#290456)

I dunno - nuclear weapons are not an area which I have a lot of interest in. Do you know if this treaty ever ratified?


(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:40 - ID#26793)
There is nothing like deflation to bring out protectionism

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:46 - ID#329186)
Help please
can abyone recomend me to a Y2K site in Spanish ?

go gold , silver , food 7 water


(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:55 - ID#213135)
Trading - The week ahead
Next week shapes up as much of the same. The one difference is the potential for any new lows for the metals in this time frame are getting very short. Down side targets for the metals havn't changed 277-275 gold amd 4.40 silver. XAU could go as low as 60-58, much lower could kill any gold rally, I much prefer it holds 65 during a further metal decline this would do wonders for the long term.

The dow looks like its in a wave 4 from the Oct lows another big leg up is coming. Some of the most dramatic moves I've seen in the SNp and the Dow have come during the Xnas holiday. Look for the Dow to be at 10,000+ by mid Jan. and maybe as soon as year end.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 16:56 - ID#20359)
CPO@AU, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...hope this helps...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:00 - ID#219363)
I see what you're saying, but I didn't mean to infere that a jeweler would have to purchase and/or manage the equipment and people to use the technology and tools. As should be obvious from my previous posts on a different thread, I honestly believe you can have anything you want: The money, quality of life, the whole nine yards, it all depends on what we want. If a jeweler wanted a small shop with only himself working on new designs and creating new jewelry, and wanted to make tons of money, and didn't want to purchase and manage the equipment, and didn't want to do the marketing, and only wanted to work 10 hours a week, then there ARE ways of having everything you want. It doesn't have to be this way or that, making money doesn't have to mean you have headaches. I think the most important words I've learned over the last few years have been the noun "manager" and the verb "delegate". If there's something you don't want to manage, find someone who gets off on it and let them do it. If you don't want to put up the capital for a new piece of equipment, find someone who does and be their first customer, or find a business out there that has the equipment and use them. Might be fun to get a bunch of jewelers from different parts of the country to invest a thousand bucks each to help an entrepreneur start a business that uses the equipment with the understanding up front that he can't do jewelry except by contract from the jewelers who put up the money. Millions of options that give us everything we want.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:01 - ID#20359)
CPO@AU, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...this looks helpful...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:03 - ID#344239)
Nostradamus, or Michel de Nostredame, published the first part of his prophecies at Lyon in 1555. The complete set, in the form of a letter to his son, 965 quatrains ( verses of 4 lines ) , one quatrain in Latin, 141 prsages and 58 sixains ( verses of 6 lines ) , and a letter to Henri, King of France, was available by 1557. The prophecies have never since been out of print.

Dr. Max de Fontbrune ( father of Jean-Charles de Fontbrune ) published a translation and critique of Nostradamus in 1938, which included descriptions of the German advance through Belgium to invade France, Germany's loss of the war, and Hitler's demise. As a result, the book was confiscated and withdrawn from every bookshop in France and Dr Max de Fontbrune was hounded by the Gestapo. The censor stated, in 1940: "... in all versions of this work Dr de Fontbrune's commentary risks provoking severe reaction from the occupying authorities".

Nostradamus was born on December 14, 1503. His family had converted from Judaism to Catholicism in 1501 after an edict of Louis XII which forced all Jews to become Catholics or leave Provence. Nostradamus studied medicine at Montpelier, obtaining a baccalaurat and a license to practice medicine by the Bishop of Montpelier in 1525. In 1529 or 30, Nostradamus attained the Doctorate of medicine at Montpelier.

For more biographical information, see "The Further Prophecies of Nostradamus", Erika Cheetham, Corgi, 1985, reprinted 1989, ISBN 0 552 12299 8.

These following few verses are excerpted from Jean-Charles de Fontbrune's book, Nostradamus 1: Countdown to Apocalypse, Pan Books, 1984. ISBN 0 330 28062 7. Current events make these verses stand out in a remarkable way, I think you will find.

The quatrain in Old French is presented first ( references such as "CIII, Q27" mean Century III, i.e. the third collection of verses, Quatrain 27 ) , then the English interpretation by de Fontbrune, then my additional comments on possible interpretations linked to current events. These are perhaps best thought of as "what ifs", to reflect on potential outcomes depending on how forthcoming events are managed.

Des Roys et princes dresseront simulachres,
Augures, creux eslevez aruspices:
Corne victime dore, et d'azur, d'acres
Interpretez seront les exstipices.
The heads of states and governments will fabricate imitations [of gold: excess of paper money]; prophets will make forecasts devoid of sense [speeches of politicians and economists]. The horn of plenty [consumer society] will fall victim to them and violence will follow peace. The prophecies will be fulfilled.

Fiat money- pale imitations of "real money"- abounds; no longer constrained by the requirement for gold backing, the heads of state can print as much money as they wish and fund economies through sales of government bonds. As Alan Greenspan once said, "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation". Politicians will be forced to make optimistic speeches to talk up the economy, and bull-market proponents will continue to predict stock market recovery as the nascent bear market continues to make lower highs. As economic prosperity decays for many, as in East Asia, things start to turn nasty...

Le grand crdit, d'or d'argent l'abondance
Aveuglera par libide l'honneur:
Cogneu sera l'adultre l'offence,
Qui parviendra a son grand deshoneur.
The importance of credit and the abundance of gold and silver will blind men greedy for honour. The offence of deception will be known by him who attains his own great dishonour.

Mountains of consumer debt, government bond financing, and great apparent prosperity as symbolised by gold and silver ( or could this be a reference to the flood of Central Bank gold sales and loans for short selling that discredits gold as a store of value and keeps faith in debt instruments such as the fiat-currency dollar and government bonds as safe havens ) supports confidence in personal advancement in the "new economic paradigm" of low inflation, sound economic fundamentals, and bull-market advocacy. Meanwhile, someone is accused of dishonourable acts and deception- now who could that be?

Les simulachres d'or et d'argent enflez,
Qu'aprs le rapt lac au feu furent jettez,
Au descouvert estaincts tous et troublez,
Au marbre escripts, perscripts interjettez.
Images produced in gold and silver, victims of inflation, after the theft of prosperity, will be thrown into the fire in anger; exhausted and disturbed by the public debt paper and coin will be pulped.

"Paper gold", which is to say certificated forms of gold trading, such as is carried on at the LBMA, which does not involve taking delivery of physical metal, will be tarnished by loss of confidence. This could possibly be as a result of alleged "fractional reserve gold", a re-run of the 17th century's invention of paper money as certificates against gold deposited with goldsmiths, which began to circulate as currency in its own right and ultimately tempted the goldsmiths into issuing more paper certificates than there existed gold to redeem against them. Ultimately the "Paper gold" will be devalued by investors stampeding to take delivery. Inflation will devalue ordinary paper and coin currency until it may as well be thrown on the fire. The world's greatest debtor nation is the US, as Japanese politicians have been reminding us lately. Inflation and a rise in interest rates would cause the debt service costs to skyrocket, with sovereign debt default at risk, the currency would lose its value and, if hyperinflation ensues, notes and coins would have to be reissued with zeroes lopped off, the previous issues being pulped and melted down. Alan Greenspan has just commanded a second interest rate reduction. How then could there be interest rate rises? When the markets collapse, the "missing inflation" which is hiding in money measures ( i.e. M1, M2, M3 ) , bonds, and the stock markets will be released as "real inflation". When the dollar collapses and money flows overseas, interest rates will have to go up again just as they have in parts of Asia and Latin America.

Despit de rgne nunismes descris,
Et seront peuples esmeus contre leur Roy:
Paix, fait nouveau, sainctes loix empires
RAPIS onc fut en si tresdur arroy.
Power will be despised because of the currency devaluation and the people will rebel against the head of state. Peace will be proclaimed; through a new fact, sacred laws will be corrupted. Never was Paris in such dire disarray.

When markets collapse and the good times end, prosperity falls and unemployment rises, any politician in power falls out of favour, regardless of their merits. This tendency is well documented in various works on long wave economic cycles. Several heads of state have already fallen; e.g. Japan's Hashimoto, Germany's Kohl, Indonesia's Suharto. The new incumbents will claim that the turmoil has ended, but there will be new corruption and overthrow of cherished institutions, principles and traditions, such as has been asserted by some as the depredation of America's constitutional rights. Paris is often mentioned by Nostradamus as the centre of his own country, but also as a symbol for the West, caught up in the global financial turmoil.

La grande poche viendra plaindre pleurer,
D'avoir esleu: trompez seront en l'aage.
Guire avec eux ne voudra demeurer,
Deceu sera par ceux de son langage.
They will complain of lost wealth and weep over choosing [responsible politicians] who will make mistakes from time to time. Very few men will want to follow them, deceived as they will be by their speeches.

People whose investments have fallen in value will not want to blame impersonal market forces or long wave economic cycles- they will blame the politicians and stockbrokers who cheered on the bull market, before it turned into a bear. The smallest mistake will be siezed upon as evidence against them and on losing office they will remain discredited, their reputations tarnished for ever.

Prs loing defaut de deux grands luminaires,
Qui surviendra entra l'Avril et Mars:
O quel chert! Mais deux grands dbonnaires
Par terre et mer secourront toutes pars.
Shortly after the shortage of the two metals [gold and silver] which will occur between April and March, how expensive life will become! But two heads of state of noble birth will bring help by land and sea.

Precious metals- which have thousands of years of history as currency- become so much in demand for investment purposes, as the ultimate 'safe haven', and the debt obligation of nobody, that to all extents and purposes their physical trading ceases. There is currently reported a shortage of bullion coins and prices rising for the popular American 'Saints' in collectors' grades. What could the bit about heads of state be about? Could 'noble birth' be a reference to European traditions; in which case this could be implying aid from Europe to America?

Le parc enclin grande calamit
Par l'Hesperie et Insubre fera,
Le feu en nef, peste et captivit,
Mercure en l'Arc Saturne fenera.
The economy in decline, there will be a great calamity in the West and Italy, war, disaster, and captivity will affect the Church. The time of pillage will ruin Monaco.

This verse leads from the financial crisis ( economy in decline ) to other verses which describe the third world war between the South and the North. Southern Europe is subject to invasion from the South, including the Holy See. Monaco, symbol of financial success, suffers not only from financial decline but from invasion. A "great calamity" could mean many things, such as earthquake, breakdown of law and order, or terrorist attack.

We should hope and pray that these prophecies are nothing more than an interesting resonance with current events.


(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:09 - ID#257312)
t1-- A Giant of a Forecaster

May you be as accurate in your Gold predictions!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:24 - ID#252150)
BGR Prec Mtl@I noticed some inerest in this closed end fund & since I've owned
it off & on for several years & just recently bought some more. I thought it would be a good idea to do a search on some of their top holdings. I was a little concerned about their exposure in Africa, but after checking on their top holdings there I'm fairly sanguine.

Some of the Cos. checked on:

Sutton Resources--a world class property in Tanzania. Despite the attack on the U.S. embassy there, it's considered 1 of the more stable Countries for mining cos. They have a nickel, AU, cobalt property there. The AU deposit comprises 8 mil ozs @ 13 g/t. I'm so impressed with this co. that I think I'll tuck away a few 1000 shares in my RSP. They did a refinancig early in the year & have 60,000,000 cash, so can afford to wait for POG to improve.

Ranger Minerals--An Ausralian co.that has a producing property in Ghana. Ghana is considered to be 1 of the safest & most stable Countries in Africa. They have an open pit mine there with 3 mil+ proven ozs @ a cost of 200/oz production & have sold 900,000 fwd @ 387.

East African Gold Mines-- apparently have a property in Ireland of all places, but their main hope is in Tanzania, where they are proving up a property with good potential.

I'm fairly confident that the mgrs of BGR have been around long enough that it's highly unlikely that they would expose their shareholders to inordinate risk in unstable African Countries.

I've traded BGR wts for several years. The last couple of years I've bought it under 2 & sold it over 2.50 ( as high as 2.80 last spring}. My last buy was at 1.75 last week. I may try to get some more this week.

If POG goes to 250 for an extended period of time, which I think is possible, this fund would be hurt badly, but most of the Cos would survive. A lot safer than individual jrs, where the odds of holding a few disasters is too high for me.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:29 - ID#219363)
Did you get my note ?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:32 - ID#252150)
Will Clintler be impeached@If the mkts extend the recent slide by 3-400 more
points I would'nt be surprised if enough of the moderates lose their nerve by Thurs. RR will probably put the PPT on standby or maybe even acctentuate the downside action.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:32 - ID#329186)
tolerant1 (espagnol) 17:01 thanks
Namaste'gulp and puff to ya and it looks as though it will be at least she can follow the links

go gold

Old Soldier
(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:35 - ID#238299)
SVD & Ballerina
Oris, that SVD better be good because it is one ugly mother!!! Yesterday at a gun show, I got a 1989 Pd 31.1g. Ballerina for $75.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:36 - ID#286224)
Re: MIQ (Mirandor. Montreal)
Now that I bought a few thousand shares on pure speculation ( gambling I admit ) can someone out there today tell me something about them?

I ( of course ) am hoping for good-news-now, but failing that, does this company have staying power?


(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:44 - ID#20359)
Envy, CPO@AU, Auric, Namaste' gulps and puffs all around...
@Envy...yes but after the upload...check your email for my note...

CPO@AU...glad to be of help...

Auric...I hope I make it 2 for 2 on the prognostications

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:55 - ID#220325)
Impeachment of Andrew Johnson the only other president to be impeached

(Sun Dec 13 1998 17:55 - ID#26793)
China cracks down on wealthy region

THE Priest
(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:02 - ID#369333)

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:06 - ID#249244)
THE Priest
Yeh, right...Lets also drink for HIM.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:08 - ID#237299)
Envy: your 17:00
Good points- and I agree with you. I also believe virtually anything is possible. I suppose I've been burned out by technology enslavement, and by debt enslavement- so my post was colored by that reaction. Now that I'm out of debt, I'm very wary of anything that smells like that old treadmill. But I like your idea about several jewelers employing the technology jointly- thus keeping it fully at task.

THE Priest
(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:09 - ID#369333)

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:09 - ID#252150)
Aph@Is your TA so invincible that even the threat of impeachment does'nt
concern you. I think it will concern many other investors globally.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:09 - ID#249244)
Old Soldier
Congrats on your great purchase. SVD is very good...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:09 - ID#329186)
The Priest ,oris forgivenes & drinks mmm
I think kindness would most definatly be taken for weakness by the Klintler mob

but then you'r Kiddin! No/
go gold

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:11 - ID#220325)
Cage rattler-- Thanks for the Martin Armstrong seminar information
Much appreciated

Tantalus Rex
(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:14 - ID#295111)
Peace & Justice
Peace is next to impossible without JUSTICE. Forgive him after Justice has been served.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:15 - ID#252150)
The Swiss Franc& I noticed some rumblings out of Switzerland that the strong SF
was again having a bad effect on their exports. I would'nt be the least bit surprised if the Swiss release another threatening statement re: POG.
Possibly as early as the next few days.

I have a bad feeling about POG. I think we may revisit old low soon.

Tantalus Rex
(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:19 - ID#295111)
The Swiss may yet threaten with another AU sell. But for the Swiss to sell their gold, the government must first win a referenduum from the people. Polls indicate the Swiss want the government to purchase more gold... not sell!!!

However, the Swiss need to keep the POG down cause their banks are VERY heavily exposed to hedgefunds. This is also the case with England. All THREATS of sales from mainly from those 2 nations.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:23 - ID#252150)
Golteck@I should have read your BGR post before I became alrmed about
African holdings. Even though I'm over $8000 in comissions this year my #%&* Broker does'nt send me quarterly reports. I'm quite surprised that they sold off all their African holdings, especially Sutton. I think it's world class & will probably still buy some.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:23 - ID#370236)
A large bow to the T-Rex.
That sounds about right to me. Forgive him...
and then Impeach him.

During the ensuing civil lawsuits, the parasitic lawyers can have
what's left. Let's then see how effective his apologies are.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:27 - ID#220325)
APH-- thanks for the update
May this move may be as good as the last 500 point one you caught!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:30 - ID#213135)
There is only two out comes 1 ) he is impeached 2 ) he is not impeached. It is already assumed he is going to get impeached and the average investor doesn't seem to care. On the other hand no one thinks the senate will convict him, if he is convicted that event could top the bull market. In the mean time money is going to keep flowing in pushing the market higher.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:32 - ID#213135)
Yes, but a close under 1150 in the snp would take me out.

THE Priest
(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:33 - ID#369333)

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:34 - ID#329186)
speculation anyone?
we have

1 ) Y2k in progress ( i.e the date draw's near but not the solution )

2 ) The POG in the dumps

3 ) Klintler /impeachment /start a war to divert attention

4 ) Global financial system melt down on the horizon

5 ) The 2 leading puppet string toglers in battle

6 ) OIL price in the pits so to speak.

7 ) The EURO europes federal reserve?????

If someone/group had cracked zero energy ( fusion ) ( cracked the parts of the spilt atom ) wahtever, a while back what additional chaos would that bring if the lid could not be kept on it????


(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:37 - ID#370236)
@ALL: Does anyone recall market reaction when Nixon resigned?
As for WJC, can't recall anything he's done that's been
FUNDAMENTALLY sound for the US economy. Mere bubble inflation.

Tolerant1 - congrats to you, your Giants & your crystal ball.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:40 - ID#213135)
The dollar is going to tank begining tonight. S&P Futures are off sharply in early trading. Whether you vote your pocketbook or
your faith, WJC and the US Market is about to take a big hit.
Playing king of the mountain runs out for everyone who tries
to deny his time has passed.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:45 - ID#20359)
Tantalus, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...ha...cha....cha...chaaaaaaaa...and to make
things even sweeter...Jerry Jones' blood pressure is going ballistic as the Cowboys lose to the Chiefs....

I am in Giants Heaven...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:50 - ID#290172)
"Strange doings" yet another update--
Had to double-check something, went back to Oanda-guess what?

They have rewritten the currency history! ( As I cut and paste entire quote parcels-- in order to eliminate transpose errors, etc.-- there is no question regarding the validity of each of the quotes. )

( 1 ) On Friday, December 12, 1998
1 Platinum ( ox. ) = 1.1823 Gold ( oz. )
1 Gold ( oz. ) ( XAU ) = 0.8458 ( oz. ) Platinum ( oz. ) ( XPT )
Median price was 1.1737 / 1.1823 ( bid/ask )

( 2 ) On Friday, December 12, 1998
1 Platinum ( ox. ) = 1.1937 Gold ( oz. )
1 Gold ( oz. ) ( XAU ) = 0.8377 ( oz. ) Platinum ( oz. ) ( XPT )
Median price was 1.1848 / 1.1937 ( bid/ask )

The 1.1937 quote was changed to 1.1823 quote.

Blast. Now I shall be forced to go back and check every quote on the days in question for 'alterations'
oh wellmaybe the 'after' quotes, when compared with the 'before'
quotes., will reveal something 'interesting...

3-cubed: Interesting! At this juncture, one is willing to seriously entertain any number of 'strange' prognostications.

Gusto Oro
(Sun Dec 13 1998 18:59 - ID#377235)
"Do you think he's on a suicide watch..."

Clinton or Armstrong?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:05 - ID#228136)
A tanking dollar sounds good for gold. What do you think?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:09 - ID#344326)
Perhaps some clarification is needed...
My guess is that APH__b is NOT the same man as APH ( one of Kitco's best forcasters )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:13 - ID#344326)
Feb Gold is up .70
Perhaps that dip on Friday was just one particular trading house dumping. ( Goldman's probably )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:13 - ID#43460)
Obsidian, Envy I see you have reached a consnsus of sorts. All, webpage of interest.
I think Steve has a valid point though that if he has his own machine, learns to use it et cetera then he can control it, and expand as much as he wants, use it when he wants and gain control over his own life. I believe what he may be searching for is a way of bypassing what has been known as 'the problem of the Commons' the principle by which shared limited resources are overutilized by some and underutilized by others. And if all works out he would have a comfortable niche, being the local expert to whom others bring their CAD business.

The analogy might very well be the old technology of the blacksmith. While most all farmers 200 years ago could do rough ironwork the vast time, energy and skill reqired to learn to make horse shoes, plows, augers, knives and other complex items made a comfortable niche for professional smiths. These smiths made a lot of money but had to invest up front in their capital equipment and employees.

I found this highly esoteric webpage today in a search for something else. It has little to do with the discussion but points out that there are people so effete and overspecialized all they can do is sit and wonder about such things. On first glance it appears to be primarily Marxian doubletalk. I suppose Marxists have more leisure time to do such things as their only marketable skill is expanding the commons.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:24 - ID#213135)
Apathy has cost lives and money history has taught us. William J. Bennett's book.
"The Death of Outrage" says it all.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:24 - ID#213135)
Apathy has cost lives and money history has taught us. William J. Bennett's book.
"The Death of Outrage" says it all.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:31 - ID#227238)
The Priest:
"THE Priest ( JUST A THOUGHT ) ID#369333:

It may be devoutly hoped that such is warranted and that he may be allowed to do so in private.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:39 - ID#343259)
To all jewelers
FWIW I enjoy reading your posts here. Again, no one made me mayor, just my .5

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:55 - ID#213135)
Yes, a weak dollar should be good for gold. But it seems like every time I come up with a logical reason for something to happen it doesn't. That's why I rely on charts. The charts tell me if gold spikes down to 277-275 the next leg up could go to 350.

The handle APH_b is not mine.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 19:58 - ID#213135)
My handle was not asked for but given to me just last week.I only speak for myself.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:06 - ID#277224)
Speaking of fusion
Have heard very little lately about cold fusion.In
fact it has been about a year since much publicity.
Last I believe indicated that Dr.Fleischman's research
was being funded by Toyota and was taking place in
France.Seems rather absurd but success in this area
of cheap,non polluting,inexhaustable energy and that
which might save this planet would be so resisted
by the powers that be.Talk about cheap oil and
major deflation.

Doctor Gold
(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:11 - ID#272136)
Gold Up .85 cents
Nikkei down 200 ( 1.39% ) .....Go Gold

THE Priest
(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:13 - ID#369333)

Gusto Oro
(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:31 - ID#430260)
Now down 402. Asia is red tonight.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:36 - ID#266105)

Placer paying double Getchell's Friday close.

Tantalus Rex
(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:36 - ID#295111)
BIG BIG NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! out at 5:30 today....
Placer Dome and Getchell MERGING....

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:37 - ID#290226)
Candidates and Democracy
"All the candidates were in a declining state of health and morality. One had to be given injections of ground-up Japanese seaweed; otherwise he lost consciousness, sometimes in the midst of a sentence. Others kept going on a mixture of cocaine and Vitamin C. Their private means had been acquired by investing in gay bars and foreign wars, and evicting the poor. Only the Ministry of the Interior knew the nature and extent of their undercover financial dealings. And yet some of these men had to be found better than others, if democracy was not to come to a standstill."

This passage was written by Mavis Gallant, a Canadian writer. She is, of course, describing only the candidates of French Canada and no other place on earth.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:39 - ID#290226)
Candidates and Democracy
"All the candidates were in a declining state of health and morality. One had to be given injections of ground-up Japanese seaweed; otherwise he lost consciousness, sometimes in the midst of a sentence. Others kept going on a mixture of cocaine and Vitamin C. Their private means had been acquired by investing in gay bars and foreign wars, and evicting the poor. Only the Ministry of the Interior knew the nature and extent of their undercover financial dealings. And yet some of these men had to be found better than others, if democracy was not to come to a standstill."

This passage was written by Mavis Gallant, a Canadian writer. She is, of course, describing only the candidates of French Canada and no other place on earth.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:45 - ID#249232)
Today, the spot price of gold is about $291.50. So long as Utopian economist are in charge, it will continue to rise. Unfortunately, the same type of soft-headed approach is being taught in the economics departments of the colleges and universities, and their graduates continue to enter key financial and governmental slots. Gold will , therefore, probably continue to rise for years. When a nation has been so irresponsible as to issue too much of its money, there is no way to reduce the quantity except by redeeming it with gold. Unless this is done, the currency will become more and nore volatile. Eventually,it will sink to a price level representing a fair exchange of goods and services for the money. The failure to use gold to relieve errors of management has caused so many disasters throughout history that a prime responsibility of educators shoould be to train each generation in this fact. A civilized society would automatically circulate gold coins so that its own people would share in the necessary discipline of its government. When a government merely says "trust us" , we do not need discipline, sensible educated people would know that discipline is needed more than ever.When the price of gold rises, the government should sell out of its reserves and buy when it fall. Each year that has passed has increased the necessity of taking this step, but it is not even discussed in public life. Consequently , the crisis deepens and a devasting depression is about to start in 1999. People blame Clinton for ineptness and indecision, but after 220 years ,we should be able to recognize that this is the rule, rather than the exception, that presidents are mediocrities. The blame must fall on our education systems's encouragement of romantic nonsense. The dollar is an international as well as a national currency. This is desirable for the strength of the US

in the world if it maintains a stable value ( backed by gold--otherwise it works in reverse. It has also become a reserve currency , and this should never have been allowed to happen. Today,the US power in the world rests on its military, just as Rome relied on its legions rather than its civilized influence, to maintain authority. We have failed for the same reasons other societies have failed. That is no reason,however, for the individual not to do his best to combat these forces of barbarism. But first,he must protect hemself--both intellectually and financially.As to what to do, view my previous posts.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:46 - ID#218222)
This is the last time I'll do this!! BUT, I haven't changed my mind!
I don't think what happens with our scumbag, sorry, I mean dirtbag ooopp's, meant to say lying sack of s..., whoooops can't say that either, you know clintler, I don't think what happens with him one way or another is what will dictate the direction of the market. When Everyone is IN, Who's left to buy??? Period.....

I am a contrarian. I have never seen anything like this in my life.

This last top, was the top!!!!! Even though it wasn't the true top as evidenced by the broader averages being far below their last peaks. The sentiment right now is one for the history books!!

"The Great 401K Bubble of 1998" is complete!!! Take the money and run!!!!!!

Good luck everyone. Remember, cash will be King! Gold is the best form of cash that I know of. Especially in the months and years to come.

Date: Mon Jul 20 1998 18:07

kapex ( JUST REMEMBER!..... ) ID#275194:

At the bottom, things will look the worst. You will think that you are dead wrong. The CRB is doing more to make

people think it will only just continue to go down and take gold and silver with it! The Stock Market is DONE!!!!!! Sell

Now. Most think that we are not yet at an extreme, which is precisely why we are. Also remember that when some

EVENT happens that they can point to as the reason for the debacle most will say, Yeah that's it! The signs are all there.

Good luck and happy Puts...




Date: Sun Nov 22 1998 17:54

kapex ( Take the money and RUN!!!! ) ID#218248:

Copyright  1998 kapex/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

We now have hit 5 year highs in bullish sentiment, 57%, versus 31.6% bears. Everyone I talk to, and I mean everyone is

in this market. I have never seen sentiment this optimistic! This market is in deep s _ _ t!!

I would even go so far as to say the top of Wave ( 2 ) is complete. The pattern was a a-b-c -x- a-b-c. Put call ratio hit

40 on Friday which is one tick off the 5 year lows. This is not the kind of action that you see after a 20% decline! Reality

is about to set in. Every index with the exception of the Dow declined in 5 waves. Most people who were calling for

devastating new lows have all changed their tune. Why? I had stated near the lows that the wave 2 up would be

breathtaking, and suck everyone back in. It has, including the most die hard bears.

Just remember, this market won't telegraph it's next decline. You just better be the heck out of the way when it begins.







Date: Thu Nov 26 1998 13:22

kapex ( Here may be an E-wave explanation to the stock markets behavior ) ID#237260:

Copyright  1998 kapex/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

the last few months. As I've said, ( oh, HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE )

before, my predisposition is to watch the sentiment. When this is at extremes like it was, IMHO, ( for the PM's and the

stock market ) earlier this year, then I feel confident of expressing an opinion as to a change in the trend.

It is then that I will look for corroborating ( SP ) tools to validate my suspicions as to whether the markets have truly

changed direction. Elliot is one of the best tools for telling you where you were! Notice I said WERE. It's predictive

ability comes in when you ARE on the right count and can forecast future moves with respect to correct count and the

use of fibbonacci levels of retracements.

The market declined in July in 5 waves down with 3 waves up right to .382 levels of the declines. What it didn't tell you

is that this bubble had a little further to go.

With that said, lets see where we stand right now by looking at the internals as well as the current sentiment of the stock

market, that is obvious to all, as well as other gages that are not looked at nearly as closely.

Back in July, the put call ratio nearly tied its 5 year low by hitting 40 puts for every 100 calls. This level was hit two days

in a row

back in August of 97, right at the top. The A-D line Finally failed this July after confirming every new high previously.

Mutual fund cash levels were at levels NEVER seen before, I believe and the Investors Intelligence survey of bulls vs

bears were also at highs. In July I don't believe they were 5 year highs. We all know the public's sentiment on the

market, as surveys and comments have been posted here many times. Everyone I talk to is not afraid,AT ALL!!!

Now lets take a look at where we are right NOW!

Friday and Monday, the put call ratio tied those two back to back 5 year records of 39-40. Investors intelligence shows

the level of bulls at 5 year highs of 57% last Wednesday. The A-D line did not even surpass the last little high it made on

the way down.

But here's the thing that has convinced me that this market is truly done. Even the prominent bears who were looking for

much lower prices during the decline have all agreed that this market has got more left on the upside.

Where are the bears????? "The Great 401K Bubble of 98"is complete.

The advance from the lows was so breathtaking that it sucked everyone back in. Yet all internal measures of the markets

health are screaming, run for the exits!!

Now ask yourself a question. If this were to be the supercycle top, and we are headed into the abyss, how do you think

it would end?

Right, with as many as possible looking for higher prices!!

Gold and Silver are the same only in reverse!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:49 - ID#26793)
Plunge Protection Program
Do you suppose the PPT will be taking the next four days off for political reasons?

Tantalus Rex
(Sun Dec 13 1998 20:52 - ID#295111)
Twisiting bible text just a little preparing for XMAS ....


The POG will rise from the dead. No one knows, however, when that day and hour will come - neither the angels in heaven, nor the sons of man;
the MASTER of the universe alone knows.

The rise in the POG will come and be like in the days of Noah. In the days before the flood, people ate and drank, up to the very day when Noah went into the boat; yet they did not realize what was happening intil the flood came and swept them away. Unlike these fornicators, the TRUE gold bugs are prepared and have entered the ark like Noah, but like an ark made of GOLD!

That is how it will be when the POG rises from the dead. At that time, two men will be working/playing in the field, one will be broke, the other with GOLD.

WATCH OUT THEN!! Because you do not really know when the POG will rise from the DEAD. So then, you must always be ready, because the rise in the POG may come at an hour when you are not expecting.


Doctor Gold
(Sun Dec 13 1998 21:27 - ID#272136)
Gold moving up slowly....$291.65
Kitco site...slowing dooowwwwwnnnnn......slowly.... Quotes have stopped!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 21:42 - ID#222231)
IMHO, the PPT will be in full force and effect until this impeachment process wears thin. If the economy tanks prior to impeachment, WJC will lose considerable support amongst the populace. He and he alone is responsible for what is happening and his support will wane because the people backing him will know that he is the bum responsible, ergo I believe he will instruct the PPT to continue for his benefit.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 21:43 - ID#376309)
I'm long feb gold futures. I'm placing an open order stop in at $290.90. I truely believe that friday was nothing more than the big guys looking for stops. We should move up from here, if it is going to happen. If we take out friday's low then I'm giving up on an up move.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:03 - ID#316193)
Millennium Bug Panic Warning
"Britons have been warned to stock up with two weeks'
emergency food rations in anticipation of millennium
bug-related shortages." ( Much emphasis is given booze.
Their government thinks the people will be drinking more. )

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:12 - ID#219363)
U.S. Stock Market Crash Index
Index has went to -4 as of 14 Dec 98 from +0. -10 is bad on this index as the last time it went to -10 was, well, you can guess when that was. I have no idea what this index is based on, but it does seem to have a good history of predicting trouble. But, not to worry, it's at -4, not -10, I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. Go Yahoo. Go Amazon.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:20 - ID#218222)
The real poll!!!!!!!
The Judiciary Committee rejected the Democrats' censure resolution. Do you think the full House should have the chance to consider a censure resolution as an alternative to impeachment?

Yes, it is an alternative that Congress should consider

No, censure is not a constitutional option

Not sure




Total votes:


Do you think the American people understand and care more about impeachment now that the Judiciary Committee has recommended impeaching the president? 



Not sure




Total votes:


Is impeachment of the president in-step with or out-of-step with the wishes of the American people? 

In-step, Americans want impeachment

Out-of-step, Americans don't want impeachment

Total votes:


As the full House prepares to vote on impeachment next week, do you plan to let your representative know your opinion on the vote? 

Yes, by paper mail

Yes, by e-mail

Yes, by fax




Yes, by phone








Not sure




Total votes:


If you disagreed with your representative's vote on impeachment, would you hold it against him/her in the next election?



Not sure




Total votes:


Should the president resign to spare the country from impeachment proceedings or a trial in the Senate?



Not sure




Total votes:


Do you think that President Clinton will make a public statement next week where he admits to lying--either to the public or the grand jury--about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky?

Yes, he will finally realize it is the right thing to do


Yes, the political pressure will force him to do so



No, his attorneys won't permit him to put himself in more legal jeopardy


No, it's not in his nature


Not sure




Total votes:


If the House votes to impeach, the stock markets will not react--they have already anticipated such an event




shudder and drop about 200 points




plummet by more than 200 points




Not sure




Total votes:


Should lawmakers consider the market reaction when they weigh whether to impeach the president? yes--we all have a stake in the political and financial outcome




no--they should do their job as outlined by the Constitution




Total votes:


What should the Congress do to President Clinton? The House should impeach him, and the Senate should remove him from office




The House should impeach him, and the matter should end there




The Congress should censure him




He has suffered enough, the matter should end now




The Congress should censure him




He has suffered enough, the matter should end now




Not sure




Total votes:


I am Male








Total votes:


I am a registered Republican












I am not a registered voter




Total votes:


My age is under 18




























80 or over




Total votes:


(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:21 - ID#288155)
Heads up

According to the 'revised' quotes, gold didn't go below 291.200.
Saturday's revised quote had it at 291.250.

Sunday, they have it at

Sunday, December 13, 1998

1 Gold ( oz. ) = 291.500 US Dollar
1 US Dollar ( USD ) = 0.003431 Gold ( oz. ) ( XAU )

Median price was 291.000 / 291.500 ( bid/ask ) .
Minimum price was 290.900 / 291.400
Maximum price was 291.050 / 291.550
75% of the prices were above 290.950 / 291.450 and below 291.050 / 291.550
Computed from a sample of 8 prices on Sunday, December 13, 1998

The London fix will be...interesting...
A betting person would say 291.500 minimum

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:21 - ID#218222)
Poll is from AOL!!

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:24 - ID#219363)
Japan Business Confidence Down
TOKYO ( AP ) -- Business confidence at Japan's recession-hit small and medium-sized manufacturers has fallen to a record low, a quarterly central bank survey released Monday shows. Sentiment surpassed the level recorded in September, which was the worst since the Bank of Japan's widely watched "tankan" survey began in 1967. The index for those companies came to minus 60, worse than the previous record low of minus 57 in the last survey released in September. The September figure had exceeded the prior record low of minus 51 in May 1975. Confidence at major manufacturers also continued to worsen, falling to minus 56, the worst since February 1994 when it reached the same level, according to the central bank. The September survey registered a minus 51. The survey's main index measures the percentage of firms seeing business conditions improve minus the percentage seeing conditions worsen. The Bank of Japan surveyed 9,129 companies. Japan is stuck in its worst recession in half a century, its economy dragged down by massive bad loans in its financial sector and sales dampened by the Asian currency crisis as well as by pessimism among consumers at home.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:29 - ID#219363)
Indonesia Economy Seen Contracting
HANOI, Vietnam ( AP ) -- Indonesia's economy will contract again in the first half of next year but will begin to show signs of growth as the year moves to a close, the country's senior economics minister Ginandjar Kartasasmita said Sunday. Ginandjar said Indonesia's ambitious and costly plan to recapitalize its ailing banks was crucial to bring a return of growth. "We still have problems in the real sector for the very obvious reason that the banking system isn't functioning," Ginandjar said. "That's the reason why we rush to deal with the banking system." Indonesia, grappling with its worst economic crisis in decades, is expected to see a 15 percent contraction in its economy this year, according to the government and the International Monetary Fund, which is leading a $43 billion bailout program for the nation. Although the rupiah has strengthened, the low price of oil -- a major foreign exchange earner for mineral-rich Indonesia -- was a continuing weight on the economy, Ginandjar said.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:35 - ID#219363)
Survey Shows Euro Unkown in Britain
LONDON ( AP ) -- A British Broadcasting Corp. survey published Sunday indicates most Britons do not know the name of the European single currency, how much it is worth or when its notes and coins will be introduced. The currency, called the euro, is being introduced for 11 EU countries, excluding Britain, on January 1. The launch is meant to create a single bloc that will rival the United States and Japan as a global economic power. Although the government has said it broadly supports entry into the euro, most Britons remain skeptical about whether joining would be good for Britain. The government has said it will not make a decision until it has seen the effect of the new currency. The telephone survey of 1,000 people, conducted by research group Audience Selection between Nov. 27-29, revealed that 51 percent of Britons cannot name the euro, with guesses at its name including Equarder, Ecru, Etu, Eu and Curo. Estimates of its value ranged from one penny to 8 pounds ( $13.20 ) , with 10 percent of those questioned knowing it would be worth about 70 pence ( $1.15 ) . Most people thought they would be able to use notes and cash next year, with only 5 percent knowing they would not be introduced until 2002, the BBC said. The survey had a margin of error of 3 percent.
Looks like the Euro is off to a good start with so much broad-based support.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:51 - ID#219363)
This Week's Episode
When we last left our heros, the CRB had been caught by an angry, vicious bear and was dragged down into the depths of deflation chasm. The DOW stumbled on it's new high and sank back below 9000 into the 8800's, and the U.S. Stock Market Crash Index went to -4 for Monday the 14th. Japan's business confidence went down, nobody in Britain knew what the Euro was, and oil tanked around 11$US a barrel with rumors of 9$US to come. The dollar fell against world currencies and took gold down with it, to the surprise and confusion of many. What's in store for this week ? Will the CRB break free of the bear's grip ? Will the DOW celebrate 9000 for the third time ? Will things turn around in Japan and restore the demand for commodities ? Will the outlook for rain in Brazil turn negative and push up grain futures ? Will the U.S. Stock Market Crash Indicator hit -10 predicting a sell-off in equities ? Stay tuned for next weeks exciting conclusion of Market Bubbles and Yellow Metals.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 22:59 - ID#219363)
Japan Nationalizes Second Bank
TOKYO ( AP ) -- The Japanese government Sunday took over operations of a major bank hobbled by bad loans, overriding objections from bank executives who insisted it was not insolvent. The government took control of Nippon Credit Bank Ltd. after financial authorities declared the bank insolvent with at least $27 billion in unrecoverable or high-risk loans and massive stock valuation losses.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:02 - ID#20359)
I find it interesting that there are renewed threats of terrorism in 4 -5 different ME countries
along with an article in I believe TIME?...which indicates they have information that an attack is imminent in the USA with Bin Laden as the culpritIn addition we hear reports that the stock market will crash if Clintler is dismissed and impeached from officeN. Korea says it is being forced into a military confrontation by the USAand on and on

I mean really...does anyone trust Clintler and perhaps even more disheartening...would anyone TRULY put anything past Clintler to retain his office...

Sad...sad days for America...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:04 - ID#219363)
Japan Stocks Fall at Mid-Session
TOKYO ( AP ) -- Japanese stock prices fell Monday morning amid concern about the health of the banking system after the nationalization of a major lender. The U.S. dollar fell against the yen. The benchmark 225-issue Nikkei Stock Average shed 148.68 points, or 1.03 percent, to 14,256.96 as of midday. On Friday, the average closed down 402.16 points, or 2.72 percent. The dollar bought 116.74 yen in late morning trading, down 0.54 yen from late Friday in Tokyo but above its late New York level of 116.42 yen Friday. Led down by bank shares, Japanese stocks slid amid rekindled fears of instability in the bad debt-ridden banking system after the government took over ailing lender Nippon Credit Bank Ltd. on Sunday, traders said. The compulsory nationalization of Nippon Credit marked the second time a top lender has come under state control in less than two months. The government took over the Long-Term Credit Bank of Japan Ltd. on Oct. 23.
About 300 more points and the Nik is back below 14000.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:15 - ID#35757)
What does 'the introduction of the Euro' mean if no notes are put into circulation?

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:25 - ID#219363)
Markets Take a Rosier World View
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- After a months-long spell of global gloom, investors seem to be taking a brighter view of the world economic outlook as 1998 draws to a close. While Wall Street has rallied strongly through the autumn, it isn't just the U.S. stock market that has staged an impressive comeback from the severe summer selloff. Depressed foreign markets from China to Latin America have posted gains of 20 percent or better in the past three months. Indexes of international and global stock mutual funds calculated by the research firm of Lipper Inc. now show gains of more than 10 percent since a year ago at this time. "The worst may well be over for a battered and bruised global economy," says Stephen Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. Roach and other analysts give much of the credit for the improved atmosphere to rescue efforts aimed at supporting countries troubled by debt and currency problems -- and to moves by the Federal Reserve and other central banks to ease credit conditions. "The Fed has lifted spirits with three consecutive interest rate cuts, which should limit the downside risk in the market," says John Manley, investment strategist at Salomon Smith Barney Inc. Even the most optimistic observers temper their enthusiasm by noting that many of the big questions overhanging the markets during the summer have by no means been resolved. For instance, worldwide commodity prices have slumped again lately, stirring up renewed worries about deflation.
If you can't trust an investment strategist from Solamon Smith Barney, who can you trust ? I'm sure the world economy is fine. Go Yahoo. Go Amazon. Sit quietly and watch your money grow in real time on CNBC. This chart hasn't even begun to go non-linear ( or has it ? ) . This is definitely the height of sanity. Check out that little bump ( and I do mean little ) back in 87. The volume during that time pales when compared to what we have these days. The amount of money in this vortex is amazing, and most will leave empty-handed if they leave at all.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:28 - ID#219363)
Just from the discussions I've seen here, my understanding is that the Euro will be used to settle bank transactions and such in the beginning, and that debt will be rolled over into Euro. If I understand it correctly, it will slowly be moved out into the masses via a number of different mechanisms until it's used widely in the next century. I could be wrong, there are many on this forum who know more details.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:38 - ID#20359)
Envy, Morbius, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...odd is it not that the price of gold more
than any other provokes fears of deflation...yet it is also shrugged off as a relic from the financial graveyard...clearly gold is THE item against which all other things are measured...

When the tide turns and gold increases in dollar price to come into line with the other items in the finansophere it will certainly see a dramatic rise in price...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:40 - ID#20359)
I reckon if I am going to invent a word I should spell it properly eh...doy!
should be...finansosphere

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:48 - ID#219363)
@Tolerant1 and Morbius
I think we're the only folks at Kitco tonight.

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:52 - ID#20359)
Its good to be in good company eh...Namaste' gulps and puffs all around...Asia is
looking sick this evening...things do not bode well for the markets...I think everyone thinks this is a breather and the markets will push higher...many have warned that would be the kiss of death and one day the dream would end...people would jump back in and then the market would tumble badly...

Given all the factors affecting the markets I see bad things in the next 60 days...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:58 - ID#20359)
Namaste' gulp and puffs to ya folks..
I am toast...nite or day to ya...

(Sun Dec 13 1998 23:58 - ID#342397)
Another lurker is here, scratch that, SOMEONE else is here.
Back from working on a seismic program in the Rio Grande Valley. T1, noticed that you have mentioned "bad things in 60 days" twice today. What do you anticipate. Clintler and the GoreWhore, Euro, general market correction or PPT propup. What do you see happening??