Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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John Disney
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:00 - ID#24135)
Iron Mouth Mike
salty ..
.. Tyson's a piece of work .. Hope he fights Holyfield
again .. Evander will wash his little mouth out with soap.
.. Botha is a no hoper I think .. not much power and
made for Mike ..

(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:01 - ID#254288)
Visions of sugar plums........

Hey if a 20% devaluation pushes up a stock market 33.41%, and gold does nothing, think what the a 20% US devaluation will do for bandirs on wall street........and how their government hacks will truphet on how such will balance the trade deficit. You can bet they're thinking about it.
It might clinch alternative investments, "such as overpriced markets" as being superior to gold in crisis situations and give the Banking Gangsters another tool that screames gold is dead.
TULIPS ANYONE, or should I promote jungle swampland on the Amazon.
My basic premise is that gold is money and not the crisis metal, without gold as money, there will always be crisis -just look back to recent or even more distant events. Just trying to cheer everybody up

(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:02 - ID#284255)
All You Wanted To Know About Money

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:07 - ID#428218)
Well said Sir............

Official sector treatment of gold appears to be a concerted attempt to avoid the downside consequences of
reflation. It is a subtle attempt to control the mood and thought process of the financial markets. An overt approach
to accomplish the same goal would quickly fail. The all important effect is to delay the ultimate market reaction by
sending false signals to all participants. Gold prices will go far higher, and financial market assets will slump
further and longer. Gold price intervention may have gone beyond the point of no return in the sense that the short
interest has become so large that it cannot be unwound in an orderly way. Instead, participants are compelled to
reinforce the defense of the $300 ceiling with additional borrowings, to prevent the considerable financial peril
many financial institutions would face in a short squeeze.

Disappointed gold investors, who accurately forecast this year's financial market instability, have been fighting City
Hall. Despite the failure of gold to move higher, the ultimate upside payoff will be more rewarding as short
positions, taken on the perception these arrangements will last indefinitely, will be impossible to cover. Timing the
breakout will be next to impossible. Positions will have to be in place well in advance of what is sure to be a
cataclysmic event. Gold under $300 is a pot worth watching as it grows into an increasingly tempting speculative

John Hathaway
December 1998

* * * * * * * *

John Hathaway is Senior Portfolio Manager of the Tocqueville Gold Fund. The Tocqueville Group is an
international financial organization managing nearly $1 billion in total assets.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:17 - ID#428218)
Thewo two articles posted today by.....

....John Hathaway and Bill Murphy ( check out the articles are golden eagle ) would tend to indicate that the current financial markets are clearly in a "sink or swim" mode.....problem is it would also appear that a large number of participants forgot to take swiming leasons in their youth......if you have ever been caught in a surf rip, you do not forget such happenings !!!!

I had thought that the Titanic had already sunk.

Ah, but there is "always" the American Dream, or fantasy... wag, wag !
Perceptions are real, reality is a perception.

Now, where are those life jackets.........



Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:19 - ID#428218)
Thewo two articles posted today by.....

....John Hathaway and Bill Murphy ( check out the articles are golden eagle, take out the "en" from "golden" ) would tend to indicate that the current financial markets are clearly in a "sink or swim" mode.....problem is it would also appear that a large number of participants forgot to take swimming leasons in their youth......if you have ever been caught in a surf rip, you do not forget such happenings !!!!

I had thought that the Titanic had already sunk.

Ah, but there is "always" the American Dream, or fantasy... wag, wag !
Perceptions are real, reality is a perception.

Now, where are those life jackets.........



Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:20 - ID#428218)
( Third time lucky) The two articles posted today by.....

....John Hathaway and Bill Murphy ( check out the articles are golden eagle, take out the "en" from "golden" ) would tend to indicate that the current financial markets are clearly in a "sink or swim" mode.....problem is it would also appear that a large number of participants forgot to take swimming leasons in their youth......if you have ever been caught in a surf rip, you do not forget such happenings !!!!

I had thought that the Titanic had already sunk.

Ah, but there is "always" the American Dream, or fantasy... wag, wag !
Perceptions are real, reality is a perception.

Now, where are those life jackets.........



(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:27 - ID#105139)
Fidelity Select Gold Charts
Both of these charts show that the Gold rally is Alive & Well!

FSAGX & FDPMX 120 market days:

Three Years overhead resistance:

(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:38 - ID#254288)
Something to think about........

The premise is that gold is money and not a
crisis metal, without gold as money, there will always
be crisis.
The crisis is their for those who cause it to twist to their advantage, not yours, not your neighboors.
For those inclined to act harshly, remember that your neighboor is not your enemy, even if he's unpopular with you. The treatment must be on the source of the disease, not those stricken by it.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:41 - ID#428218)
Gutnick....gearing up through Australian Gold Resouurces NL.....

Australian Gold Resources ( 14 January 1999 )

AGR has sold 25 million shares in sister company Centaur Mining and Exploration for $9.9 million. Australian Gold Resources Limited now holds a 19.61% interest
in Centaur and the sale in no way diminishes our view of the future value and prospects of Centaur.

They are establishing a tenement portfolio through out Western Australia, including a substantial vanadium project near Windimurra.

One to keep and eye on

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:41 - ID#428218)
Gutnicl....gearing up through Australian Gold Resouurces NL.....

Australian Gold Resources ( 14 January 1999 )

AGR has sold 25 million shares in sister company Centaur Mining and Exploration for $9.9 million. Australian Gold Resources Limited now holds a 19.61% interest
in Centaur and the sale in no way diminishes our view of the future value and prospects of Centaur.

They are establishing a tenement portfolio through out Western Australia, including a substantial vanadium project near Windimurra.

One to keep and eye on

(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:42 - ID#254288)
Something to think about........

The premise is that gold is money and not a
crisis metal, without gold as money, there will always
be crisis.
The crisis is there for those who cause it, to twist it to their advantage, not yours, not your neighboors.
For those inclined to act harshly, remember that your
neighboor is not your enemy, even if he's unpopular with you.
The treatment must be on the source of the disease,
not those stricken by it.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:42 - ID#335184)
John Disney
Is it time to give in on Rangy or hunker down ?

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:44 - ID#428218)
Action on the Western Australian front.....

Great Central Mines ( 13 January 1999 )

Rating's agency Moody's will review GCM's debt rating after a bid by Normandy Mining and a trust associated with GCM chairman Joseph Gutnick to buy out
GCM's minority shareholders.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 00:51 - ID#256365)
You made some points about my post. They concern me. I want to drop the subject, but you have pointed out ignorance on my part, and I know I need to explore that. My post was in response to someone saying the US dollar would never lose it's status as the main reserve currancy because the US was the only superpower. I disagreed with that, because I am not convinced we are a superpower anymore. I see a number of nations that could arguably be called a superpower based on any criterion used to judge the US a superpower. At one time, our nation had tremendous influance over other nations. Now I suspect that other nations are very sick of hearing from us, and wish we would shut up. Mostly what I think is happening is that the world is breaking up into various trading regions. That conflict between nations, as least nations powerful enough to destroy one another has become unacceptable and a different style of conflict has emerged. One that in my mind at least reminds me of the city states in medivel Italy. I think that these regions will try to cooperate internally but not at all externally. I think that Europe and Asia will some day be direct challengers to America both North and South. I think that the "sides" will be the Americas and English speaking nations, Europe with the exception of UK, and Asia. But I don't know how asia can fit together. Maybe Asia with the exception of Japan. I think it would take a lot for Russia-China and Japan to cooperate extensivly. But Russia, China, The Middle East, India & Pakistan, as well as some of the African nations like Chad and Niger and some others will be the Asian side. I'm not sure how Pakistan and India will fit together but I think they will. Iran in particular seems to be extreemly active diplomaticly in Africa and India I think.

So in regard to superpowers, maybe I see three. And part of the one I live in is having problems now.

Regarding being flipent, I didn't see how you could say that but I went back and re-read my post. Ok, your right about that, but that wasn't my intention. I am very sorry you were angry with my post. I'm sorry I posted it the way I did.

I don't know much at all, but I try and figure out what is behind the things I do see. I see in Iran's newspaper pictures of important Iranian people meeting with important African people. I wonder why and conclude Iran has business interests there. I know that Iran hates Iraq and yet I read scathing editorials in Irans newspaper regarding the recent wave of US military activity in Iraq. I know that China and Russia historiclly don't like each other. I think its because of geography, the mountains make it look like both nations have their backs towards the other. But Russia and China simultaniously condem the US missile attack. I read how some important Japanese person goes and meets with some important Chinese person, these people absolutly hate each other. Yet, they seem to be trying to work things out. I see alot of that, nations trying to work out problems with other nations. But it doesn't look like global peace is about to erupt. It looks like regional peace making. It looks like nations are trying to make alliances based on economic and geographic resons, not political ones.

Oh, I knew that France and UK have Nuclear weapons, both even have nuclear powered submarines that are very advanced. But my point was that it is very different for Germany and France to have nuclear weapons than for Germany France and Italy to develope them jointly. This is what I see in the Euro. A cooperative developement of a powerful weapon, and powerful tool. The newest race in power, and my side, the Americas, with the problems in Brazil which will only spread, is behind the curve. It is not that I am very proud of my side, there is little nationalism left in me. I am here because of geography, this is where I was born and will stay. Though there has been discussion in our household about that last bit.

I am sorry you took offense at what I posted, but I am greatful that you posted you critisisms. I need to explore all those places where I don't know what I am talking about. It's gonna take a long time.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 01:05 - ID#190411)
Haggis, Aside from your triple posts,
let's not forget that the libertarian citzens of these United States agree with you. There are not all that many of us at the moment, but we will be a force to be dismissed in the near future.
There will be an increasing chant of secession among the same type of dopes that cheer for Scottish independence. I'll go for both of those, as I am a reactionary. You have already allied yourself with the sovereign state idea, along with it's prerequisite, the independence of money from whatever current regieme that holds sway.
Whacking us on K1 about the Federal Resrve is a bit out of the political spectrum, as compared to what any keeper of our Republic would do.
As much as I respect the superior gold price calls of D.A., and glenn, and RJ, I am committed to the explosive rise of gold.
After this week, the setup couldn't be better.
I still have to ask, Iff'n it aint the USD, then it sure as hell aint the Euro, and if none of the above are true, then let's fall back to a safe position.
BTW, there was a politician that represented the congressional district that I live in. He lost in a close race to one of the most fanatical lefties in the US senate. The rightwinger was defeated by the massive turnout in Madison, the seat of State gommint.
We were thwarted by probable fraud, but it will not matter when the America Firsters capture the minds of the 30% that it takes to discredit this 75% loved nanny state.
I like Scotland First, and New Zealand first, and anyone else that will hold their community ahead of Disney Co. and that insipid mouse.
If you ever see cartoons from Walt Disney ( The old ones ) , the rich guys always had sacks'o'gold. Noone ever flashed a federal reserve note.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 01:21 - ID#267344)
Oh my god!

WILLIAMSBURG, Va. ( AP ) -- In a speech about the concern people have over the new millennium, The Rev. Jerry Falwell said the Antichrist is probably alive today and is a male Jew.

Falwell also told about 1,500 people at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., on Thursday that he believes the second coming of Christ probably will be within 10 years.

"Who will the Antichrist be? I don't know. Nobody else knows," said Falwell, whose Sunday morning services at Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg are carried by television stations nationwide.

"Is he alive and here today? Probably. Because when he appears during the Tribulation period he will be a full-grown counterfeit of Christ. Of course he'll be Jewish. Of course he'll pretend to be Christ. And if in fact the Lord is coming soon, and he'll be an adult at the presentation of himself, he must be alive somewhere today."

According to the Bible, the Antichrist will spread universal evil before the end of the world but will be conquered at the second coming of Christ.

Falwell said Friday in Williamsburg that he did not intend for his statement to be anti-Jewish. He said he meant only that the Antichrist must be Jewish because Jesus Christ was a Jew.

"If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, he has to be Jewish," Falwell said. "The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish."

...waiting for the worms to come...


(Sat Jan 16 1999 01:24 - ID#190411)
Apologies to all around,
My last post is even incomprehensible to me.
Hey, John Disney.
I subscribe to Business Day stock quote service ( free ) . I ran across a company on JSE that trades at 4.3 P/E and 2.3 yield. I knew nothing about the company, except the name: ASSORE. I figured that a co. with a moniker as that would be perfect for a goldbug.
Silverbaron and myself would like to know whether you have any info on the SA base metal mines that are crushed.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 01:30 - ID#190411)
Is that a threat to your well being?
I am glad to see you back, maybe you will post some of your own thoughts as you used to do, when you were interesting.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 01:56 - ID#267344)
I cannot resist the temptation to reply. These days I am in quiet mode, partly because of fear, partly because I have a lot on my mind, and partly because I have already said what I had to say. Others say it better.

clone waits on his toes, liquid and prepared. he will spend once everyone else has stopped spending, once debt becomes scarce. he will save, glean, amass and hoard until all the other dogs have their day, and then clone will have his.

Meanwhile, clone will try to avoid the antichrist!

Take care,


John Disney
(Sat Jan 16 1999 02:08 - ID#24135)
for Erle ..
ASSORE has a nice ring to it. I think best play for
base metals is AVMIN .. it owns half of avgold ( which
placer tried and failed on before Wes Areas ) plus
manganese cobalt and copper ( i think ) .. I just bought

John Disney
(Sat Jan 16 1999 02:12 - ID#24135)
out for a Duck ??.. er what'd you say ??
To all .. thought I posted this but it seemed to
disappear ...

The South African Cricket team has been under great
pressure from the Gomment to have more Black faces on
the national side. Whether they know how to play or
not is a secondary matter. The team has three colored
guys ..Gibb, Telarmachus, and a little spin bowler
whose name eludes me. Gibb is brilliant .. Telarmachus
is always injured .. the spinner is okay but less good
than Symcox ...But these guys are not BLACK ENOUGH ..
Now they did have ONE Black Xhosa speaking Black
fast bowler named Ntini .. whose efforts were not
too overwhelming in the few matches they used him in.
.. them he disapeared .. "out with injuries" ..
was the message .. Then references to "personal
problems" .. then friday cat jumped from bag ..
in court in East London on rape charges.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 02:30 - ID#230243)

That US Banks have billions on the line in Brazil, not mention untold fortunes invested in LATAM; the meteoric rise in the Brazilian market leaves me with thoughts of manipulation.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 02:45 - ID#219363)
Late Night
Nothing much to do, little discussion on Kitco and my lady is away. Sat down to read something, started reading Alice on the web. Lewis Carroll was a very good writer, I'm amazed at how many images and feelings he can get across in such a short book. Every line has something to say.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 03:15 - ID#173196)
A well planned attack on the U.S. dollar by the new European Central Bank and the Bank of Japan would create a speculation frenzy that could destroy the U.S. dollar and collapse the U.S. markets and economy. What the axis powers of Europe and Japan failed to do in the Second World War can now be accomplished using the illusions of world bankers.
John Kutyn
13 January 1999

(Sat Jan 16 1999 03:17 - ID#173196)
Last Post !
Remember to remove the "en" from golden!!

(Sat Jan 16 1999 04:24 - ID#257150)
Not wishing in any way to detract from Charles Dodson's Alice in Wonderland, but, Charles Dickens, Now THERE's a writer of English.


(Sat Jan 16 1999 04:36 - ID#386245)
I read somewhere on Kitco...
...that Jerry Springer was the most popular chat show on Merkan tv. I have just watched a few minutes of it for the first time.

I am speechless.

Merka is in more trouble than I thought.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 04:51 - ID#224230)
This week's Economist is worth a read
If not least to observe the fortuitous juxtaposition of a piece on Goldman Sachs, subheaded Palace coup, with a half-page commentary on India's gold ( en ) tariffs. Less encouraging was the pithy lead sentence in the latter piece :

"Even as gold loses its glitter the world over, the Indian lust for it remain unabated."

The rest of the piece analyses the thinking behind a rise from 5% to 9% for gold imports - something the gold smugglers of Dubai will appreciate.

One interesting fact was the estimated 7 billion US$ of this year's gold imports.

The conclusion : "Many suspect the real motive was to reap higher revenues as gold demand peaks with the forthcoming wedding season."

On the Goldman Sachs front....the analysis of Kitcoite's favourite company ( NOT! ) boils down to this :

"a perception that the brusque treatment of Mr. Corzine, and a perception that the investment banking side had scored a victory over the trading arm will unleash further internal conflict. That could make for a bumpy road to the IPO, and, by damaging Goldman's traditionally cohesive culture, reduce its chances of a successful longterm future"

AMEN to that.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 04:58 - ID#386245)
Of mice and men(and gold)
We have the advantage in Antipodea of receiving the best ( and worst ) of the media from around the world. British tv is far superior to Merkan-- we get them both so can compare. Add in a mix of Aussie, Kiwi, Asian and European tv and we get a pretty good spectrum to choose from. I am appalled at the lack of quality of most ( not all ) of the Merkan pap that gets fed to the masses. No wonder you are so insular. If you grew up on Oprah, Jerry Springer, Friends and your ethnocentric sports, you would have the mental and social development of a ten-year-old. Drugs for the masses. Keep them entertained and well-fed and you've got The Merkan Dream.

It is going to be VERY interesting when the economic bubble pops and the Dream turns into Illusion.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:11 - ID#257150)
Just returned from movie {You've Got Mail -"Ting"} and dinner at superb Thai restaurant around the corner, one of the advantages of living in Orkland rather than out in the boondocks.

We've just got a new free to air TV Channel, studios between us and the Thai Restaurant, it's an odd hodgepodge of community local, German International and some Merkan Channel I've not sussed yet. The Merkan chat shows are just amazing, what is did Fay Weldon call it? Therapism! Yeah, Therapism:

".....listen, talk and listen. All will be cured.
Therapism absolves us of personal blame, assures us that there
is no such thing as a moral problem, only one of confusion, for which
the cure is counseling. Look at it our way, beg the therapists, the
universe is essentially good! The fat aren't greedy, or genetically
doomed: no, their unaesthetic shape is caused by abusive fathers. As
in Erewhon, our criminals are mentally ill, poor things, and the ill
( as in AIDS ) are the criminals: they didn't eat right. All things are
mendable; the pedophile and the rapist can be cured by talk and
investigation of the past; the police, unlikely to catch the robber,
can put the robbed in touch with their Victims' Support Group. All
shall be well, and all shall be well. Once Christianity was the
opiate of the people; now its sleeping draught is Therapism."
--Fay Weldon, 1998

Now, I've been learning about current affairs in Germany, what a world.....

Also been browsing some old posts {as one Rottie might say to ANOTHER} and wondering what you're thinking about GCM & Dome Resource these days.

We got tropical rains tonight, almost monsoon.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:19 - ID#224230)
I too have just returned from lunch at a superb Thai restaurant. Open air, cheap tables and even cheaper cutlery !

An absolutely delicious Tom Kha Gai, Pad Pak Ruem ( Fried vegetables with some pineapple added - my custom dish idea ) fragrant rice - and a large bottle of ice cold Kloster Beer. Aroy !

All for less than US$6 ! Apart fromthe price, the trouble with California-based Thai restaurants is the substitution of real Thai limes ( Manau ) with large thick-skinned local variants - It's a Medfly scare thang. They taste quite different.

Just thought you'd like to know !

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:21 - ID#386245)
Despite my criticism of our Merkan mates' media, I too went to see You've Got Mail. Merkans are the world's best at escapism ( just ask Houdini ) . If you want reality, watch the Poms.

GCM and Dome will take more consideration and a private message. Great value--but what isn't in the gold sector??

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:23 - ID#257150)
Therapismiological Introspection
As long as we're Therapisming, and, I know the Merkans have no respect for the Commonwealth, thing is, we play our major team sports against many nations: England, Ireland, Scotland, France, S Africa, India, Pakistan, Stralian, Sri Lanka, Honk Kong, Argentina, Japan, Tong, Fiji are just some of the nations we play at football {that's Rugby football, to the unitiated} and cricket.

I am probably wrong, but it seems that the US does not really play team sports against the ROW {Rest Of the World} though I'm sure US and Canada must play against each other.

So? What's my point? Just that the US seems to be idiotically nave about the ROW.

How many 12 year old merkan kids can't point to Washington, or Austin on a map of the world?

Donner und Blitzen now

BTW Therapisming isa word I never expect to see again, it makes me shudder to think I could coin such an ugly word

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:27 - ID#224230)
@aurator - I almost forgot...
Hear Hear to your piece on the psychology of victimhood and Therapism.

This is of course a more positive flip side.

At lease these increasingly damaged-goods Merkans are beginning to realise they desperately need professional help.

A cheaper, more enjoyable and infinitely more educational alternative therapy would be a trip to pretty much anywhere in the third world.

Even a day trip out of the confines of their 5 star hotels to meet some of the indomitable human spirits who smile in the face of desperate daily adversity and poverty ought to do the trick.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:33 - ID#40799)
Am a lurker on this great site, and can't contribute much with regards to gold comment, but recieved this following "event" in an email.
Maybe the Australians on this site can verify whether it's true or not. Also apologies to Bart, or anyone else for that matter if they're offended, but my take on it is that this "event" really happened and was just a misunderstanding.

This story occurred on Melbourne radio last week.

One of the FM stations has a competition where they ring someone up,
ask them three personal questions, ring their spouse or partner, ask them
the same three questions, if the answers are the same, the couple win a
holiday to Bali.

Last week the competition went like this:

Presenter: Gidday its XXX-FM, do you want to play the game ?

Brian: Yeah, sure.

Presenter: O.K., Question 1 - When was the last time you had sex?

Brian: Ohhh, maaaate. Ha Ha, well, about 8 o'clock this morning.

Presenter: And how long did it go for Brian ?

Brian: Orrrrr .... about 10 minutes.

Presenter: 10 minutes ? Good one. And where did you do it mate ?

Brian: Ohhhh maaaaate, I can't say that.

Presenter: There's a holiday to Bali at stake here Brian !

Brian: O.K. ... O.K. ... On the kitchen table.

Presenter: ( and others in the room - much laughter ) . Good one
Brian, now is it O.K. for us to call your wife ?

Brian: Yeah, alright.

Presenter: Hi Sharelle, how are you ?

Sharelle: Hi. Good thanks.

Presenter: ( Explains competition again ) We've got Brian on the other
line, say hello.

Sharelle: Hi Brian.

Brian: Hi Sharelle.

Presenter: Now Sharelle, we're going to ask you the same three questions
we asked Brian and if you give the same answers, you win a trip for two to

Brian: Just tell the truth Honey.

Sharelle: O.K.

Presenter: Sharelle, when was the last time you had sex ?

Sharelle: Oohhhh, noooooo. I can't say that on radio.

Brian: Sharelle, it doesn't matter. I've already told them.
Sharelle: O.K. ... About 8:00 this morning before Brian went to work.

Presenter: Good, nice start ! Next question. How long did it go for
Sharelle ?

Sharelle: ( giggling ) About 12, maybe 15 minutes.

Co-Presenter: That's close enough ... Brian was just being a gentleman.

Presenter: O.K. Sharelle, final question. Where did you do it ?

Sharelle: Oh no I can't say that. My mum could be listing. No way, no.

Presenter: There's a trip to Bali on the line here.

Brian: Sharelle, I've already told them so it doesn't matter
anyway.. .. just tell em.

Sharelle: Ohhhh .... alright .... Up the arse !

Radio Silence


Presenter: Sorry if anyone was offended before, we're going live
here, and sometimes these things happen. We've given Brian and
Sharelle the holiday. Now we'll take a music break.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:33 - ID#257150)
Gastronomy Interlude
Okee, we had Duck in Red curry and the most wonderful "3 Star Hotel Seafood Salad" Prawns, mussels,
Oh Boy! Some big fecking thing just blew up in a lightning strike a couple of Ks alarms going off down the street, that was LOUD.
back to the menu:
oysters, shrimps, squid, fish tossed with chilli veg in a Thai fish sauce, US$20 for 2. Took our own Chardonay.

I have a brief eye-witness report on Jakarta from my friends heading back to Laos, it does not sound like a happy place no more.


The city's dams and canals were built with the help of the Dutch. The canals were so polluted they used to catch fire back when I used to visit.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:35 - ID#26793)
I am having a hard time understanding why a Brazilian devaluation is seen as good news

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:39 - ID#386245)
I would hope that the net is helping in a small way to correct the Merkans introversion. Merkan Kitcoites are certainly more worldly than their brethren. Last time I was in Merka I spoke to quite a few of the mom and pop Merkans and they were much more ignorant of THEIR OWN affairs than I, let alone any knowledge of extra-Merkan activities.

So as not to be holier than thou, much the same can be said of the average Aussie and Kiwi, with the exception of media exposure I have previously mentioned. Then again, if you think that Merkans are insular, go to Japan. Insularity and xenophobia exemplified!!
eso--Sawadi Kap. I thought you were in Asia??

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:41 - ID#224230)
Lifted from alt.conspiracy actually (P.S. @roc - old joke)

" ( CNNS, 01/14/99 ) -- On May 5, 1994, Larry Nichols, former
marketing director of the Arkansas Development and Finance
Authority ( ADFA ) , gave an interview to Tom Donahue, then the host
of a radio show called "America's Town Forum."

Nichols, at that time, had been advocating the case of the
then-unknown Paula Corbin Jones. In Nichols' interview with
Donahue, he discussed how his advocacy of the Jones case had led
to worried calls from Wall Street:

LARRY NICHOLS: ... I got 5 calls from Wall Street,
whatever you call 'em, brokerage firm people, wanting to
know if the Paula Jones suit was gonna be filed. And I
said, "Yes, I believe it is." They said, "Well you can't
do that, basically, because the dollar versus the yen,"
( whatever that means ) , "is like at 100 and, one more
scandal is going to destroy the dollar- yen whatever." [CN

The Wall Street callers were worried that the explosion of a
scandal connected with the Clinton presidency might weaken the

Recently, the case of Danny Williams, rumored to be the
illegitimate son of Bill Clinton, was much in the news. When
results from DNA tests indicated that Bill Clinton was not the
father of Danny Williams, it is apparent that this was good news
for the strength of the Dollar. Had the DNA tests shown Clinton
as the father of Danny Williams, the resultant public distress
probably would have weakened the Dollar on world markets.

The question arises as to whether, to preserve the value of the
Dollar, the Danny Williams DNA tests were "fudged."

In a CNNS press release dated Jan. 6, 1999, we reported on
information received by "Ru Mills" ( pseudonym ) , in which one of
her sources had informed her that, with the inauguration of the
new European currency, the "Euro," Federal Reserve Notes -- the
Dollar -- were in trouble. CNNS in that press release
contemplated a "dollar crash." ["'Euro' Bound To Impact World
Economies," CNNS, 1/6/99]

A "dollar crash" would, in effect, be a drastic devaluation of
the Dollar. Such monetary devaluations have recently occurred in
Russia, Mexico, and now in Brazil. With the monetary unit worth
less, that translates into a major price increase for goods. So,
for example, were the U.S. Dollar to crash, a gallon of milk now
costing $2.50 might instead suddenly cost $5.00.

In a CNNS press release dated Jan. 9, 1999, we again warned of
the possibility of a crash in the Dollar. Treasury Secretary
Robert Rubin has pledged that the U.S. will support the Dollar,
but market forces are ultimately more powerful than even the
mighty Treasury Secretary.

Now, an article in The Nation magazine corroborates
earlier-stated fears that the Dollar could be forced into a
drastic decline. In "The Dollar's Day Of Reckoning," Lester C.
Thurow, a professor of management and economics at M.I.T.
( Massachusetts Institute of Technology ) , warns that the Euro will
have "far-reaching consequences for American monetary and fiscal
policy." [The Nation, Jan. 11/18, 1999.]

Citing the Dollar's plunge in value which occurred circa 1994-95
( the time frame where Nichols had been contacted ) , Professor
Thurow notes that -- back then -- although the Dollar had been
"hammered," falling from 115 yen to nearly 80 yen, there was then
no "stampede" to "get out." Back then, says Thurow, there was no
alternative currency seductive enough to cause Capital to flee
the Dollar.

But this is no longer the case. The Euro now provides an
attractive alternative haven for Capital. Furthermore, Thurow
argues, the U.S. "runs a trade deficit in excess of $200 billion
and is a net debtor owing foreigners $1.5 trillion. Europe, by
contrast, runs a trade surplus with the rest of the world, and is
owed about $1 trillion." This, says Thurow, helps make the Euro
"a more appealing choice. And with that choice comes the
possibility of a run on the dollar."

In a delicate corollary, it must be broached that Bill Clinton's
current impeachment troubles are themselves threatening the
Dollar. In the face of potential disaster, with the Dollar
seemingly hanging by a thread, why is it that Bill Clinton clings
so tenaciously to power? The other side of the question is, of
course, with the Dollar threatened, why are Republicans so
insistent on impeaching Bill Clinton? Neither side is likely to
budge, but in the stand-off, Bill Clinton, as a lone individual,
clearly has more of an ability to overcome inertia and yield than
does the U.S. Congress, a collective body.

In a breaking development, information received by this news
service suggests that upper class black Americans have made the
decision to abandon Bill Clinton. It is not clear whether Vernon
Jordan, part and parcel of that black upper class, will be left
hanging in the wind, or whether he too will be part of the
abandonment of Bill Clinton.

My broker has just sent me dollar-yen trade recommendations.
And who was it suggesting that SOROS is shorting the Dollar.
Does anybody have any confirmation ?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:41 - ID#26793)
The world is still not cheering over the Russian devaluation

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:45 - ID#224230)
I am indeed here in Asia. Phuket Thailand to be exact.
The sun is shining, Leonadro DiCaprio is doing his new movie "The beach" just a few miles away, and the young ladies are as exotic, smooth-skinned and gorgeous as ever.

Why do you think my delicious lunch only cost US$6 ( 200 baht ! )
Apologies for being ambiguous ; )

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:46 - ID#386245)
G'day lurker roc
I'd say you got to the bottom of the matter quite well.

Welcome to Kitco.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 05:54 - ID#386245)
I was going to ask the name of the restaurant for my next trip to California!! Mind you, in Aussie pesos it's not such a bargain!

I spent several months in Bangkok many years ago and used to holiday in Pataya when it was a sleepy fishing village. How times change, eh!? Boy was gold jewellry cheap in 1968. I've still got most of it!!

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:02 - ID#224230)
@Nick - Thailand
Times have an annoying habit of doing that! Changing, that is.

I first visited Thailand 18 years ago when the road to Pattaya was a bit of an adventure. I've lived here 11 years.

Thailand is of course a country in which the currency ( Baht ) is the same name as a weight measure of GOLD. And there's no better way to bring a smile to a Thai lady than to give her some of the shiny stuff.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:07 - ID#329186)
Nick@C (Merkans & their TV) 04:58
Have to agree with you on TV ,and like you I glanced at Jerry Springer ,yuk then I look at the audience for the answer.

The more I think about it the more convinved I am about SUBLIMINAL propoganda ( either within the program or cross merged/transmited ) why else would anyone watch such drivel?

~ we donot have the "investment entertainment" over here like in the US but with the response of the audience to such progs ie DOW it is not hard to believe that the PPT have a hand in Subliminals !

Well for me British TV is on the way down with so many "games/Quiz" progs not to mention the on going "soaps".and of course the inevitable US exports ( where you can work out the plot within 5 mins and of course they are all filled with "LAWYERS Court rooms & Deals ) .

Few people converse ( many when away from the BOX regurgitate the the previous days TV/trash ~ and if you raise the Y2k ~ nah mate bin watchin too much telly!!!

As you said keep them entertained well-fed etc

and then SCARE em to death.

Nero fiddled etc

stay sane go gold & silver avoid TV


(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:18 - ID#386245)
G'day CPO@AU
What the Merkans need is a few Alf Garnetts.

The missus today talked me into getting rid of our satellite ( pay ) TV. I enjoy the BBC news and sometimes watch CNBC with the volume off so I can get the markets etc. I mostly watch the wildlife programs and the occasional movie. I can stand less than 5 minutes of an Merkan sitcom. This rules out a large chunk of Aussie TV as well. Thinking seriously of getting rid of the infernal thing altogether. My daughter would kill me, so I guess I'm between a rock and a hard place.

Notice I have not mentioned the Pommie cricket team out of respect for you.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:36 - ID#411440)
@ all: I think it is time to comment on Fridays COMEX
action. Please forgive me for forgetting the name of the poster
on Kitco who said that for the first time on an options expiary
Friday, gold did NOT DECLINE! The same thing had occurred to me.


Think about it. Monday is Martin Luther King day in the U.S.,
a national holiday. Trading is always light before a three
day holiday, and there was a major winter storm impacting NYC,
so many traders either did not get to work, or were late.
This would make trading even lighter than normal. Indeed, Kaplan
lists only 18000 lots of gold exchanged. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN
Gold actually firmed all day on COMEX as it was down $1 in the
east. I can't remember the last Friday in which this happened.

I have my own conclusions about this, but will post this to the
group for your comments. I think this is significant.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:36 - ID#23746)
Aurator U.S. vs. ROW
if ignorance goes to $35bbl, I'm buying drilling rights! ( he he )

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:41 - ID#257150)
We "discovered" Whose Line Is It Anyway and Harry Enfield just last year!! And have had a steady diet of same since. Laugh enough to split my sides. But, sure is some lousy Brit TV, but you've never seen "Shortland St." inexorably bad NZ soap, based on a private horse-spittle around here.

And your still making Coro St?

Is any TV better than no TV? I know the "scientific" data says otherwise, but I really do think that violent TV and Video produces violence in many who are susceptible, by lowering the threshold of the social prohibition on harming strangers.

I saw Clockwork Orange perhaps 20 years ago. Unlike the UK, the video has not been withdrawn here at the request of Anthony Burgess. I had followed Malcolm Mcdowell's carrer closely...IF...Raging Moon...Oh Lucky Man.....Clockwork Orange was his last film, Now he's in Merkan pap like fantasy Island..

Clockwork Orange may be the most effecting film I've ever seen.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:43 - ID#329186)
Nick@C (G'day) ID #386245 more TV
Yup Alf Garnetts ,one of the few progs worth watching over Christmas,even more so in this day of PC ( political crap ) .

Fawlty towers etc but like you I like the wild life programms the News well I look at what is on the www but not on the news.

No trouble mate as far as cricket goes still do not understand the game once turned up at school to watch a saturday match ,probably had a crush on some femail spectator, however got roped in to keep score .........the game was eventually abandoned due to bad score keeping.

My set is on the blink ( cannons or something ) see no point in getting another one for less than 12 months use.and My daughter when she visits just burns up my phone on the WWW she does not have a conection for her PC at her mothers.

Good luck with the Ashes

PS do stralians still watch that "neighbors prog"

go gold


(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:44 - ID#386245)
Just received an email from Aurator. Bit of a storm in Auckland and can't post. Remember that Noo Sealand is a third world country. They only have luxuries like electricity every other month.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:45 - ID#386245)
Thanks for coming back just as I'm making excuses for you.

Quick storm. Received any emails lately??

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:46 - ID#257150)
goldbaron 06:36
Now, that's a stroke of luck, cos I'm Selling.. heh heh :- )

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:50 - ID#257150)
Go long on umbrellas! I don't mean to rain on your parade, I couldn't get a long rave to post at kitco, and I don't recall swearing like Mike Tyson, either. is just ANOTHER mirror I raise when the occasion demands, sorry to have put you to any inconvenience.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 06:54 - ID#257150)
I laughed so much I choked

"the game was eventually
abandoned due to bad score keeping. "

Got Heimlech? [How dya spell that?]

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:00 - ID#329186)
aurator() ID#257150 more TV
YUP coro st still thrives, a power plant aquaintance I know told me that if power goes down during this prog they get more complaints direct and via MP's than from any other!!!!!!!! just goes to show
IMHO no Tv is better than any TV.
Violence I agree with you the viewer tends to identify with the hero or the Villan ( and why can't they make the weapons weigh the same as the real thing )
Clockwork Orange is something i reflect on after having read the strange things found on the web Fact is stranger than fiction ( 300 may put some light on my thoughts )
fantasy escapism in small doses but I think it is aimed at avoiding thought provokeing progs.

anyone in germany ? Gibst noch die meinsel menschen am Deutsche fernsehen?
stay sane avoid TV

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:04 - ID#348257)
I thot Kitco wuz fantasy island

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:10 - ID#329186)
aurator()ID#257150 how dya spell that?
aurator. meinst du Got im Himmel?
ja so ist es!
bis spaetter


(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:23 - ID#257150)
Actually I was trying to clear my air passages with a Heimlech manoevre. I speak no German at all. Fortunately Fred@Vienna is due to wake up soon, and with a little luck, he'll tell me what you said. {I read too many War Comix as a child} I'm sure I was not saying Got In Himmel, nor ordering a Roast Tractor on Toast in a Parisian Bistro.

I'm singing in the rain
Just singing in the rain
Such a wonderful feeling
I'm Hap, hap, happy again

[part of the soundtrack to Clockwork Orange, I cannot hear the song without seeing the movie clip, nasty, nasty violence]

May great sprinklings of moon-dust litter your path! May you be first in line to explain to the ET's why Furbies aren't allowed in US Defence Bases!
Is Fantasy Island ANOTHER Japanese Candlestick Tech Analysis Indicator?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:26 - ID#257150)
Can't the authorites measure the drop in reservoirs and the impact in the sewers of an advertisement break in Coro St?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:27 - ID#258302)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:30 - ID#210282)
Brazian Devaluation 'good news' -- looking forward to lake this afternoon
Donald: I think it goes like this. Brazil has been dutifully following the script of Rudiger Dornibush etal -- keeping the Real exchange rate tightly controlled, slowly dropping its value to compensate for the changing differential between the dollar and the Real.

Unfortunately the Brazilian debt/financial situation got out of hand -- admittedly due to things that American ( or European ) economic gurus would have little control over. As we both know, the Brazilian control of the Real collapsed utterly, and they were forced to float their currency. ( Now -- I don't know if the float was temporary or permanent ) . China will be next -- as evidenced by the selective corporate collapses, and the crackdowns on civil unrest.

For some reason, yesterday investors were convinced or compelled to buy large quantities of Brazilian equities. Clearly something happened to dramatically change the situation. I find it hard to believe that the fundamental problems that lead to the devaluation have really been resolved in one day.

My guess is one or more of the following:

1 ) The IMF used a portion of the promised $46 billion US to buy Brazilian equities in order to directly buoy up the market. Or there could have been a bonus deal of some kind if Brazil is able to keep a lid on the crisis. How much would it take? About 1 or 2 billion US in one day? Not much at all.

2 ) The investing public thinks that the Brazilian Real is undervalued, and will rebound short term. If this is so, we might find that all of the rebound 'investment' was actually in short term commitments of some kind, with few mutual fund investments and other longer term type trade.

3 ) The IMF gave some money to the PPT who then bought Brazialian equities.

4 ) The IMF gave money to a bunch of investors to buy Brazilin equities with a promise to make good any of their losses should their investments go sour. That would be an offer than many individuals would be unwilling to refuse, especially if they were given the cash up front.

What I find interesting is that during the Mexican crisis ( 94 or 95? ) the US dollar took a noticeable nosedive, presumably due to the flood of US dollars on the world market -- from dollar sales to buy Mexican pesos. At leas 20 billion US. I remember the dip in the dollar was significant -- it caused a considerable 'twitch'. This time it is different -- the US dollar went up ( it seems to me ) . Perhaps this time the missing assets came mostly from 'sales' of IMF gold reserves rather than sales of US dollars. This would make sense given that European financial establishments have even more at stake than their US counterparts. If the IMF stepped in to support the Brazilian markets by selling gold, why didn't the price of gold drop even more? That may be telling us something --- perhaps the gold markets are stronger than we currently think. Or the 'powers that be' are getting more secretive about their gold sales. It would be interesting to learn who bought the IMF gold -- if it was indeed sold.

I think the bottom line is that the Brazilian economic experiment has failed utterly simply because they were forced to devalue their currency abuptly. I think also that the fund necessary to prop up the Brazialian markets for one day are a tiny fraction of what resources the IMF ( and the EC/USA ) could throw at the problem.

What we both know is throwing money at Brazil does not really solve the fundamental problems in Brazil, just as this technique failed in SEAsian during the Oct 97 debacle. How long do you think it will take for reality to seep into the South American markets, and the Brazilian situation continues to slide further into oblivion? Also, how about Mexico? Do you think the Mexican method of copying US debt management by taking their $67 billion ( US ) debt 'off budget' will work for years -- or months? Guess it just depends upon Mexican interest rates, doesn't it?

Donald, all: Hope you all have a nice weekend -- I get 3 days off -- not away from beeper -- but will 'disappear' to our little lake site if weather permits. Work should leave me alone if I am lucky. The four foot tall Great blue Heron that sleeps on our lake house is a pleasure to watch. And the little black and white diving ducks I have never seen before -- can't find them in RT Peterson's guidebook. By the way -- about 30 Canada geese flew right over my dock last weekend -- in formation. The sudden cold snap has finally started their annual migration south. Four little sparrows sleep on the wiring -- huddled next to a nest too small for all of them inside the boathouse -- its find of amusing to see them sound asleep about 4 feet above me in the dark -- nothing visible except 4 balls of feathers and eight pairs of legs firmly attached to some plastic coated conduit. Nearly jumped off the dock when a Mallard under the dock let loose a raucus 'squack' Apologies to aurator for my literary skills.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:39 - ID#26793)
What happens next in Brazil? Current fix may only last a few days.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:40 - ID#257150)
Today I heard what you had to say for the first time.

I guess English is not your first language, pardon me if I'm wrong.
May I suggest you get someone to look at your capslock key? Or, if that is not possible, can you try to break up your posts into paragraphs ( use the return key between different ideas to space your post, it is difficult for us to read}

What area does your wireless modem cover?
Thank you for your help to get Teddo@Swans Island back on line.

All ideas welcome.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:43 - ID#329186)
aurator ()ID #257150 TV & sewers

at a guess I would say yes!

Note to Hilary ( of US ( In ) fame

Go easy on the gears
Go easy on the breaks

Go easy on slick Willy
and he'll last you for years

ps just so long as it is on another planet

avoid TV
go gold
off and out

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:46 - ID#210282)
The Furbie invasion! Logging off.
Mike Sheller: You have been getting too lax these days! Why didn't you tell all of those defense establishments to lock up all of those Furbie's before they spilled the beans on all of our defense secrets? Bet those danged Furbies are even y2k compiant, too.

Of course you must know that these little critters have been planted by some nefarious foreign power! Extraterrestrial, perhaps -- the milennium version of the Von Neuman machines of AC Clarkes 2001? Now, they don't self-reflicate do they? Males and females, or unisex? Mark II versions of Tribbles?

Seriously, do you have any words of wisdom regarding the when of the next top of the US markets? I would guess DOW 10k would be close to the critical level ( in 'space' as a physicist would say ) -- how about the 'time' part? Any unusual astronomical events? Isn't there another solar eclipse coming up Aug 99?

DOW 10k as the head of a head and shoulder peak makes sense to me -- with the temporal barrier of y2k coming up.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 07:52 - ID#210282)
G'day downunder and upover! Really logging off, I think
CPO, Aurator: I have a great application of parallel universes for Bill and Hillary. We just need to set up the travel arrangments -- how about the Montauk NJ facility? Hope it is not in mothballs.

Interested in taking up a collection for two one-way tickets? Paula Jones former lawyers might put up part of the fare. Perhaps Buddy and Socks get to go free. Forgot Chelsea -- but she has had enough punishment, I think.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:08 - ID#428218)
There is not only coffee in Brazil, but an aweful lot of GOLD.....

In Brazil, gold was first found in 1551 along the parana Coast. Lode discoveries were made in the 1600s at Paranaque in 1648, Sao francisco do Sol in 1658, Florianaplois in 1678, Curitiba and Ouro Preto in 1693. later discoveries were reported at Cuiaba in 1718 and at Vera Bela in 1734. Peak gold production was reached between 1740/1770 when Brazil led the world in gold production...annual production was the order of 900000 oz.

The Morro Velho mine has been in continuous production since 1834, and is now one of the worlds deepest mines. production is the order of 195 000 ounces per annum.

Total annual gold production for Brazil is the order of 2.6 million ounces. There is alot of exploration and development upside.

Some of the companies presently active are :

America Mineral Fields
Black Swan Gold Mines
Broken Hill Proprietary
Echo Bay Mines
Greystar Resources
Highgrade Ventures
Jordex Resources
NDT Ventures
Ourominas Minerals
TVX Gold
Trans Atlantic Enterprises
Vannessa Ventures
William Resources

Check them out....

samba, samba, samba................



(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:10 - ID#43349)
Your observations are astute. Not many people see it yet, but there has been a change, a shift in paradigm if you will.

With the intervention by the BOJ, the shorts attempted a coup in gold and silver prices ( remember the rise in lease rates? And prices pushed down after the Austrailian market had closed before London opened and Japan was on holiday. In other words the thinest of all possible markets ) . To this end they were somewhat successful, or so it seems.

However, it was only because the rebound was not as vigorous as it would have been if there were not a holliday coming up and adverse weather in NY and many traders taking the day off. Come Tuesday the fit hits the shan.

Given similar circumstances last year gold would now be down twenty dollars and silver off a buck and a half.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:18 - ID#23746)
It is true that most of us 'Merkans are blinded to the future. WE seem to specialize in Very Short-Term Memories..

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:19 - ID#399147)
My cousin redneck says a pair of dimes is .20 cents. He has a point, many old paradigms are not worth much more.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:22 - ID#399147)
BAruch Ha Shem
From your mouth to G-ds ear. Shalom

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:25 - ID#210282)
Gold dips -- less prominent these days/
Gollum: Are you referring to the recent dip in gold related to the Brazilian crisis? I would have expected a much larger drop as well, given how much gold probably was 'sold' to bail them out. It is a good guess that the 'powers that be' used gold, as the US dollar is going up, not down -- unlike the 1994-1995 or so Mexican crisis when the US dollar had a small convulsion.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:26 - ID#428218)
Americans should count themselves .....LUCKY.......why......

Just think......there was once a Pommy ( English ) politician who died with the fishnet tights on.....

Aw, his poor family. I wonder how they dressed him in the coffin?

Now, that would have been grounds for Impeachment ?!



(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:27 - ID#43349)
There seems to be some incredulity as to why a complete abandonment of support for the Brazilian currency should bring such a positive response in the markets.

Think about it.

Brazil was known to have economic problems ( the hot money hurricane and depression in commodity prices ) .

Tis brought the currency inder pressure nad capital proceeded to leave the country ( visions of sugarplum carry trade dancing in speculators heads ) .

Brazil ( and the IMF et al ) could choose to support the currency, in which case the country would be sucked dry ( remember Asia? ) and the economy would totally collapse.

Or they could abandon support and put up with some inflation problems ( which could be dealt with once all the shouting had died down ) .

The speculators bet they would support.

They didn't.

``It was a very strong recovery, but then again, some people here were really down. They needed to cover positions,'' said Lucio Bruno, a trader with Montelatici brokerage.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:31 - ID#210282)
Short covering?
Gollum: Are saying that the one day Brazil miracle is all short covering? Must be a boatload of really super short speculators.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:34 - ID#411440)
@ Gollum: Yes I do recall the drop in silver lease rates,
in fact I posted early Friday morning that the .15 and .20 drops
in one month and 3 month silver leases indicated that silver
was going to be hit hard on Friday by the shorts. ( Long term
leases did not change significantly. ) I meant to point out at
the time, that the shorts for the first time, seemed to be using
3 month lease ammunition for the first time in their short attack.
This use of 3 month silver indicates a new confidance in the downward
movement of the POS by the shorts. IMHO.
Then comes Friday, and although silver dropped, it was not too
bad. I appear to be wiping egg from my face now. It may be
that the perpetrators of this short attack never made it to work
on Friday, so the action may be postponed to Tuesday.

Just to be quite clear about this. You also agree that silver is
about to be hit? I do not think gold will be as lease rates did
not move for gold.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:38 - ID#26793)
Indonesian devaluation results: 130 million now in poverty, up from 80 million last year

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:39 - ID#43349)
Yes. Sorta.

When the BOJ acted to support the dollar, it placed tremedous new pressure on countries like Brazil whose economies were vulnerable to the same sort of speculative attack that was so successful in Asia.

Speulators otherwise vulnerable to a drop in the dollar basically were told they didn't have the downside risk they thought they did.

So a sudden new renewal of the Brazilian "crises" was inevitable. As well as a drop on precious metal prices.

Gold and silver lease rates went up as speculators raised cash for new short positions.

Brazil chose not to play their game.

Shorts in the Brazillian markets got killed.

An upcoming three day holliday and winter storms on the East coast saved the metal shorts for the moment.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:45 - ID#43349)
No, it wasn't all short covering. A lot of that and a lot of relief by people who had been staring into the black hole of the future also brought out a lot of pent up longs.

Fundamentally nothing has changed.

Except that assured profits by betting against Brazillian support has been taken away.

Which means a the opportunity to remove real wealth from the country has been taken away.

Which is bad for the speculators.

Which is good for the country, yes?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:50 - ID#26793)
Impact of Brazilian devaluation on other Latin American countries

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:53 - ID#210282)
Gollum, Rhody: Interesting comments. Is it really coincidental that Japan was propping up the dollar just when Brazil went south? Could it be that Japan was actually working together with the US to keep the US dollar up during an event much worse than the Mexican crisis in 94-95? Whatever is happening -- if gold was 'sold' rather than US dollars this time -- it is amazing that gold bullion prices went down as little as they did.

To be honest with both of you, I am at a complete loss regarding how Brazilian shorts got nailed. I made a nearly 300% profit in Mexican puts by selling the day everything went to pot in Brazil. The only way I can understand how the 'shorts' might have gotten nailed is that they got greedy and staying to long -- only to get caught by an 'unexpected' bailout yesterday that forced their hand and they pushed up the Brazilian markets by covering their investments.

Either way you look at it gold is behaving very strongly, given the magnitude of the Brazilian crisis -- IMHO.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:53 - ID#411440)
@ Gollum: That last post should read RISE in one month
and 3 month lease rates. Sorry.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:54 - ID#26793)
Morgan Stanley says Taiwan faces a Japanese style credit collapse.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:58 - ID#428218)
Donald....and the sad thing is......

In excess of 70% of Islands in Indonesia ( and there are in excess of 17000 ) contain a mineral resource.

Gold production is the order of 1.4 million ounces per annum, with 80% of production coming from the Grasberg and Kelian mines.

It's hardly prudent to say... "Perhaps they should get more credit cards ?!". Not appropriate at all.

Perhaps Hillary Clinton could start yet another charity.............. it could change the way she looks at things.....rather than denial.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 08:59 - ID#43349)
@ rhody
Yes, the primary attack was on silver. And silver DID get hard by the shorts ( you need have no egg on your face ) . It was hit hard a little after 8:00pm est thursday night when only the Austrailian market was open.

This failed.

Then it was hit again early Friday morning about two in the morning after the Austrailian market had closed but before London opened. This was somewhat more successful, but silver again recovered ( more slowly this time ) .

Remember, the lease rates you see on Friday morning are a result of operations that took place the day before.

I think they did their leasing Thursday, made their moves Thusday night and were hoping to see better results by Friday.

Tuesday will bring either renewed attack or frantic short covering.

Gold mostly moved in sympathy.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:02 - ID#43349)
I agree. The main point is that gold is much more robust.

I call it the "birth of the Phoenix".

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:03 - ID#428218)
Now for something completely different......

Happy viewing, and good night.....


(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:06 - ID#43349)
I am called away for chores.

It has been a VERY interesting week. Next week should be even more so.

See ya latah.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:08 - ID#210282)
Now I understand part of what you are saying
Gollum: That makes sense. The shorts in Brazil must not have expected the bailout in the Brazilian markets, which was probably IMF/PPT engineered. Some portion of the massive one day rally was short covering -- but most of it was driven by the IMF/PPT and investors piling in.

I'm not certain that the Japanese triggered the Brazilian devaluation, but it is possible. It is also possible that the Japanese were protecting an unusually vulnerable dollar while the IMF/PPT worked on Brazil.

Regardess of the truth the one day Brazilian recovery was well executed. It remains to be seen whether anything fundamental was accomplished. I doubt it. Just alot of smoke and mirrors to attract long term investors.All of the market business is a confidence game -- always was. As long as everyone believes the markets will go up, and they have enough money to buy, the markets go up. If doubts start to develop, or investors run out of money, or both -- the markets are at risk of going down.

When you add currency risk ( or confidence in the relevant currency ) you add another dimension to the confidence game. Speaking of gold, sure looks like the CB confidence in gold is as strong as ever. Interesting. Fascinating time to be alive, IMHO, despite the hardships we are likely to face -- that others are facing already.

By the way -- there are no generators to be had anymore in midamerica these days -- all on back order for months as far as I can tell. Even spouse is now saying that she is amazed that I knew what would happen.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:28 - ID#20359)
The dollar has to has to...countries who hold dollars would get hammered
so they have to go to the most stable currency/ is inevitable...when you get left holding the bag...what would you rather have in the which is appreciating in value or dollars which are depreciating in value...

The strength of the US economy is a smoke and mirrors trick of the highest order...there is no balanced budget...unemployment is huge...and inflation is certainly here and has been...just compare prices around you...from three years ago...

Chicken man
(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:34 - ID#341297)
Tulip Festival
According to USA Today ( Fri ) in the next 6 weeks there will be 20 internet IPOs hitting the market...enough tulips for everyone!...when the tulips smells the sweetest the market smells like a top...looking for top in the 10,500 -10,900 range...missed out on marketwatch .com yesterday..offered on the first day @ 17...closed @ 97.50...up $80 for the day...bloomed the day it was planted...must be the fertilizer they use on Wall Street...
So proud of myself...didn't try to short the market on option expiry.. ( saved some $ ) ...

IMHO the IMF is going to "sell" their Gold...Gold owned by a commitee...realy don't think one oz will hit the market...can't sell something you don't have... ( this is where the leased gold has been coming from ) ...the "sale" will just be a book keeping entry...the danger lies in the short term effect on the price of gold...could test the 1979 gaps on the weekly charts @ 250 or heaven forbid ( unless you are a buyer ) , the gap at $210!!!!

A chicken letter that smells like chicken litter..Chicken man..

PS.. this post took me soooo long my server disconnected me for lack of that is slow!

(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:38 - ID#20359)
Chiken man, Namaste' gulp and a puff to that would be interesting...the
devaluing of the dollar and gold getting hammered...pretty picture...not!

Chicken man
(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:53 - ID#341297)
Donald (enjoyed your 8:50)
The next article at that sight was even better...sounds like the Brazil gov might have a good chance of winning the most corrupt gov of the year award!

Poop from the coop...Chicken man..

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 09:53 - ID#348257)
JTF, all
In his 7:46, JTF asked me for my prognostications re the stockmarket. I herewith re-post a missive directed at Kitcoites on JANUARY 10th.

Sometimes I scare myself.

To wit:

S&P 500 traders, and general stockmarket watchers may be interested to note some compelling aspects in the S&P 500 Futures First Trade Horoscope. I personally place so-called "First Trade" ( usually very first contract of a new future, or first trade of a stock ) dates a notch below corporate incorporation dates for reliability, but they can be very revealing of coming action and significant time windows.

Friday the 15th:
Transiting Mars conjuncts ( lines up with ) S&P Pluto at 25 Libra. This aspect could bring a day or two of volatility, with the intuitive tendency toward a heated blowoff, given market momentum these days. In any event, this is a short term aspect, but not without significant profit potential for short term futures traders.

3rd week in February:
Jupiter conjuncts S&P Moon at 1 degree Aries. Slower moving than Mars, Jupiter's effects upon a Zodiac point can last for a couple of weeks. The "approach" ( the two or three degrees prior to the exact hit ) are usually more telling than the departure, and sometimes even more powerful than the exact aspect. This could be an expansive influence for the index, with toppiness and great enthusiasm.

Mid March:
This is VERY significant - Transiting Saturn lines up with S&P Sun at 1 degree Taurus. The Sun is perhaps the most important degree in any Zodiac. What is very interesting here is that Saturn made this exact aspect in June of '98, went to 3 degrees and retrograded ( apparent "backward" motion ) in August, and came BACK to that 1 degree S&P Sun in early October. You know where the market was THEN! Saturn retrograded back to 26 Aries by the end of December before it went direct ( "forward" ) again, and will hit 1 degree Taurus in Mid March once more. As a rule of thumb, Saturn is often a stern and restrictive influence on anything it conjuncts, opposes ( 180 degree angle ) or squares ( 90 degree angle ) . In contrast to Jupiter, which often brings expansive, sloppy, indulgent influences, Saturn turns the lights out on the party as often as not.

The Astrological question thus becomes: Will Saturn's return to conjunction with S&P 500's Sun herald the same collapse we saw in '98 when it transited back and forth across that degree? A disconcerting corroboration may be coming from transiting Pluto, which is trining ( 120 degree angle - very "benign" and supportive ) NYSE Midheaven right now. NYSE Midheaven is 10 Aries. Pluto goes retrograde at 10 Aries in MID MARCH, just as Saturn reaches full-on conjunction with S&P 500 Futures First Trade Sun. Coincidence? ...or important clue?

Watch for a toppy market in the next several weeks, with clouds possibly brewing in March. A downturn in the stock market after mid March works nicely with the Jupiter conjunction with NYSE Moon ( Silver! ) in early May. If silver is rising steadily through the next two months, we might be seeing an exciting acceleration in silver, and all the PM's in April, with a dramatic blowoff in May.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:06 - ID#258195)
Weekly Summary of Gold and Silver Lerase Rates
Monday 11th Jan to Friday 15th Jan from data supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild
Period ---- | Mon,,,,,,,Tues,,,,,,,Weds,,,,,,,Thurs,,,,,,,Fri
12-Month-| 1.51,,,,,,,1.51,,,,,,,,1.48,,,,,,,,,,1.56,,,,,,,,1.54
6-Month - | 1.14,,,,,,,1.11,,,,,,,,1.09,,,,,,,,,,1.15,,,,,,,,1.09
3-Month - | 0.85,,,,,,,0.86,,,,,,,,0.85,,,,,,,,,,0.88,,,,,,,,0.82
1-Month-- | 0.68,,,,,,,0.66,,,,,,,,0.66,,,,,,,,,,0.70,,,,,,,,0.65
Period --- | Mon,,,,,,,Tues,,,,,,,Weds,,,,,,,Thurs,,,,,,,Fri
12-Month| 3.19,,,,,,,3.14,,,,,,,,3.19,,,,,,,,,,3.14,,,,,,,,3.05
6-Month- | 2.81,,,,,,,2.81,,,,,,,,2.76,,,,,,,,,,2.71,,,,,,,,2.67
3-Month- | 1.73,,,,,,,1.73,,,,,,,,1.93,,,,,,,,,,1.88,,,,,,,,1.82
1-Month- | 0.90,,,,,,,0.90,,,,,,,,1.05,,,,,,,,,,1.05,,,,,,,,0.99

(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:08 - ID#258195)
Valuing Gold independent of fiat currencies
Here are the Dabchick Gold Index figures ( calculated from the London Bullion Market figures as supplied to the F.T. by N.M.Rothschild ) for the past week. All figures refer to the London close.
These figures are intended to show changes in the True Value of Gold relative to its value in January 1982. Because these values are independent of debased fiat paper currencies, they are also independent of the inflation caused to all other prices by governments that indulge in currency debasement.
Date | Close | High | Low |
11 Jan | 66.78 | 66.78 | 66.20 |
12 Jan | 66.24 | 67.15 | 66.24 |
13 Jan | 65.68 | 66.43 | 65.46 |
14 Jan | 65.66 | 65.83 | 65.60 |
15 Jan | 66.11 | 66.24 | 65.90 |
( Basis : Jan 1982 = 100 )

My candlestick chart confirms the insipid nature of the previous weeks's upturn. This Thursday's close at 66.66 equalled the 18-year low of Monday Jan 4th. The upturn to 66.11 must be extended a little further to generate yet another "Buy" signal from these low levels.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:10 - ID#258195)
My previous post
Sorry.........the Thursday close should have read 65.66 and not 66.66

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:24 - ID#348257)
Saturday Soapbox - why impeachment...
The question has been asked, and rightfully so, "Are Clinton's crimes worthy of impeachment?' Are they "high crimes," are they "misdemeanors" worthy of banishment from office. I say YES. And I think the reason WHY needs to be made very clear.

In the matter of impeachment as a sitting President, Mr Clinton's sin was not that he had an unseemly affair, or frolic, as it were, with a starry-eyed intern. His personal life, I will grant him, is a matter for him, his wife and family, and his Lord to decide. It ain't any of MY business. As tawdry, disrespectful and distasteful as his actions in the White House may have been, whether or not they would be grounds for impeachment in themselves would be highly debatable. They were certainly not high crimes.

However, the President did commit one of the highest crimes an officer of government can commit. By lying under oath about his own actions, he effectively stole from Paula Jones the right to a fair trial. By lying about an activity which would surely have revealed that the charges brought against him by an innocent American citizen had a grounding in patterns of fact, Mr Clinton snatched from Paula Jones the citizen's right to justice, whether against her neighbor or the highest official in the land. And not only did he do this knowingly and illegally in a court of law, but he set his henchmen about impugning the reputation of his accuser and stripping her of every whit of veracity and dignity he could in the process.

In some countries the rulers banish troublesome opponents and citizens to prisons, or, worse, death squads and anonymous graves. This is certainly in the realm of high crimes and misdemeanors. Only a few paces behind such reprehensible and barbaric action walks William Jefferson Clinton, who would lie under oath to wiggle out of an accusation by an ordinary citizen that he abused the power of his office as governor, and acted in the most degrading, insulting, and defiling maner toward an employee of the state he represented. While this act in itself is not a ground for impeachment, that he would conduct himself in such a manner tells us so much about the man.

That he would cover it up and break the law to do so is where he has overstepped his bounds. America was the first nation to declare that the "King" existed to serve the people, not the other way around. To deprive a citizen of a right to fair trial and airing of greivance by legal subterfuge, or just plain lying, should not be just an ugly and offensive act to Americans. It is a truly high crime and a serious misdemeanor. It is only one step short of political imprisonment, or convenient disappearance. If America is to prevent itself from becoming a banana republic, it must recognize that THIS is the reason why William Jefferson Clinton is not fit to be the Chief Executive of the United States of America.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:36 - ID#258302)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:37 - ID#26793)
S&P cuts 7 major U.S. banks credit ratings to "negative" over Brazilian exposure

Chicken man
(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:37 - ID#341297)
Mike Sheller (the Vote)
IMHO..the "vote" will be of pocket books ( WallStreet ) not principles!!!

True...but oh so sad...not a great moment in history

Just a thought..Chicken man..

Chicken man
(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:44 - ID#341297)
dabchick (got a favor to ask)
What would be the $ of gold be if that index went to 62.18..Fibraneci #


(Sat Jan 16 1999 10:47 - ID#258302)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 11:12 - ID#34459)
XAU and the Goldstocks
Have done a little tinkering with the charts and have concluded the XAU is still due for a trip to the upside in 1999 and soon. I had concluded here on this forum on Dec 23rd that the XAU could rally 35% to the 85 area from where it was on 12/23/98 at the 60 area. Without the help of Gold this is underway as it has risen 13% already. I now think the XAU could rally to the 120 area before any meaningful correction, how long it will take to do this is not clear. ALL of the stocks in the XAU index have bullish chart patterns. Some more so than others. These three stocks are the leaders in 1999 and the gains since 01/01/99 are

HM +16.44%
FCX +15.49%
CDE +13.51%

My experience with watching the Gold market is that the AU stocks generally will lead advances or declines in the Gold Metal.
September and October of 1998 last saw a powerful rally in the XAU stocks and we have seen since late October the stocks have corrected a lot of the gains made in that rally, now it looks like that the correction process is about complete and the gold stocks are again beginning to stir. A look at the daily volume patterns reveals this. Now Gold and the stocks are positioned to move together. The next phase of any rally that develops could be dramatic and volatile.
My two cents to the Forum this weekend FWIW

(Sat Jan 16 1999 11:42 - ID#432148)
Worthless prediction #1... the XAU is going straight to 105, whereupon everyone
will bail out upon the advice of 1. charts, and 2. advisors. The XAU will not pay any attention to either, and will continue, after a pause that refreshes, straight through 155.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 12:30 - ID#432148)
XAU work...(especially Cobra) making my worthless prediction, I did not
intend in any way to disparage your seemingly well thought out analysis of the XAU. Take a look at Ivan Auger's XAU wrap up, by the way. I just felt more or less desirous of making a prediction this morning. I don't know why; but it may be a form of therapy, since I did not study
my charts in order to make it, but just pulled figures from the blue sky,
feeling compelled to share them. Thank you, one and all.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 12:59 - ID#26793)
Inflation, recession, unemployment and deepening poverty now loom for Brazil

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:11 - ID#26793)
Mexican interest rates soar, banks at risk, from Brazilian devaluation.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:25 - ID#43349)
Why goldbugs should support Brazil
I don't believe that everyone fully understands the sinificance of recent events.

For quite a few years the dollar was too high in relation to foreign currencies. I am sure we are all aware of how the strong US economy, high real interest rates, and political factors brought this about.

The end result were the "carry" trades. In the gold carry trade, a priveledged party could lease gold, sell it for dollars, use the dollars to buy bonds or stocks or even just hold cash. The gold sales by both the lessors and the central banks ( and certain others ) would drive the price of gold in dollars down. The gold could then be either returned for a profit or the leas could be rolled over.

In a similar scheme the yen carry trade accomplished the same end using yen instead of gold.

Another favorite pastime of the big time speculators was the raid on some poor unfortuneate country with smallish reserves that got itself into some otherwise temporary economic downturn. The spec would short the local currency in return for dollars. The country would use it's reserves to support it's currency. Being in economic downturn the country could not replenish it's reserves via foreign trade as fast as they were being drained by the speculators. Eventually it would run out, the banking system and economy collapse and the currency become virtually worthless anyway. The spec would then cover his shorts.

True you had to be a big time guy or cabal with deeper pockets than the small country, but there are such.

By 1999 we came to a point where the asian crises, the Russian collapse, the LTCM affair, and other results of the turmoil brought about by the "hot money hurricane" began to threaten the stability of the US dollar itself.

With the weakening of the dollar, the carry trades began to dry up.

The risk was that one could leas gold, sell it for dollars, have the dollar weaken and find oneself in a position where one might have to buy back the gold for more dollars than one had recieved for them. In addition the central banks where no longer so eager to sell gold reserves as the Euro came on line and financial turmoil needed to be quelled.

Things began to look better for the affairs of silver and goldbugs.

Then the Bank of Japan acted to support the dollar rather than let the yen appreciate too much.

The speculators saw that the downside risk was not as bad as they had thought if countries would act to support the dollar.

Countries like Brazil where once more in jeapordy.

Brazil, however, elected to let it's currency float. Local cash reserves were hurt by the fall in buying power in foreign markets of the local currency, but gold reserves were not. Local holders of gold and other real assets were not particulary hurt. The economy continues to function, and it must be remembered that no one builds up high local cash reserves in a country plagued by bouts of high inflation for years.

Te experience of Brazilians is thus that a country under attack by big time speculators should not respond by attempting to support their currency but should let it float in a free market. In the meantime they should stock up on real assets like gold and silver.

This eventually runs the price of gold and silver up and kills the speculators who sorted it to begin with.

We goldbugs should hope and pray that Brazil continues to do well in her endeavors and prospers. Other small countries will take her as an example.

The Phoenix lives.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:31 - ID#391172)
Mike Sheller
You gots a pretty tall soapbox. No room for doubt in your mind? It seems to me you are idealistic and legalistic in the extreme. Like lots of other people around the world I'm getting some big chuckles and har-de-hars from these raving lawyers of the house.

My view is couched from the common dirt of life, what is, and respecting what is, in other people as well as myself. We aren't made to one pattern, everyone deals with different "demons". He made her a sexual offer which she refused. End of story,except she saw an opportunity to gouge him due to his position. Common sense dictates he should lie about it, why expose the nation to this circus? Lying was the only sensible thing he did.

The soverign state Mississipi refuses to bring murder charges against the good old boy clan members who killed the 3 civil right men in the 60's. They are free men, the govenor of the state does not enforce the law in a MURDER. Murder, death, grief are not respected, now that's bananas.

When we die according to Egyptian mythology Annubis weighs our heart against a feather, if it's heavier than the feather we are condemed. Lighten up Mike.

Who Cares?
(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:40 - ID#189232)
Tribute to Rome
Just a random thought.

U.S. dominates world with $$ as reserve currency.
Mexico collapses. U.S. continues on.
Asia collapses. U.S. continues on.
Russia collapses.
Brazil collapses.

I just can't help thinking of Rome and the tributes that Rome
collected from its conquered territories.

Tantalus Rex
(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:44 - ID#295111)
Survey Results from the WCG - Italy/France/Germany public want/need GOLD!


Modern economies rely on a foundation of public confidence...confidence that
keeps currencies stable and economies sound.

As an important source of economic confidence, the people of France, Germany
and Italy all turn to their nations gold reserves.

In a recent public opinion survey:

In France, 84% agree that having a strong reserve of gold helps bolster
public confidence in a nations economy; 87% say that, to protect against
future economic shocks, its important for the Banque de France to
maintain its historic level of gold reserves.

In Germany, 71% believe their countrys gold reserves are important to the
strength of the D-mark; 80% believe Germany should either maintain or
increase the level of gold reserves currently held by the Bundesbank to
support the D-mark.

In Italy, 81% say gold reserves are important because of the economic and
monetary independence they provide; 85% believe that Italy should either
maintain or increase the level of gold reserves currently held by the Banca

Public confidence... monetary strength...economic independence...reasons why
Europeans believe substantial gold reserves are an essential part of their economic

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:46 - ID#43352)
Free markets
There are two scenarios where "currency raids" against big time speculators do not work.

One is where there is only one single global currency. One can't play one against the other where there is only one. Although the trend toward the unification exists we are still a long way off.

The other is totally free markets. In this case a speculator shorting a currency drives it's price down. Buying to cover the short drives the currency back up. The speculator gains nothing, and if others are aware of what he's up to, he actually loses.

Brazil's move was a move toward totally free markets.

All in favor of non-manipulated prices should cheer such a move.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:47 - ID#43352)
I should have sais "currecny raids" against small countries by big time speculators

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:48 - ID#43352)
more chores. I'll be back later.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:50 - ID#254321)
Brief peek at Kitco before trip with 'real boss'
Gollum: I didn't think of the improved dollar carry trade from a stronger dollar recharging the coffers of the hedge funds. I thought you were referring to Brazilian exchange risk from a rising US dollar. Perhaps a little of both.

One of the url addresses that Donald posted reminded me that Russia tried to peg its currency to the dollar. The Brazilian financiers wanted to avoid a total collapse like Russia. Actually, they were slowly devaluing the Real on nearly a daily basis, but they were not fast enough.

I have a question for you. The US dollar is in a rather unusual position in that probably at least 30% of all CB reserves all over the world are in US dollars, and many countries want to trade with us because we can 'afford' to buy things from them. Few people worry about our horrendous trade deficit, which will eventually nail us -- especially when we have fewer and fewer trading partners that can buy from us. Japan wants the US dollar strong so that their balance of trade is strong, and so does Europe. Instability in other parts of the world tend to keep the dollar strong as well. Here is the question: -- What makes you think the dollar is going to go down in the near future?

My guess is that it will not go down until we have troubles with the US stock market ( or WJC ) , trade wars for months, or competitive devaluations for months.

PH in LA
(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:51 - ID#225408)
Sheller's Views on Impeachment
"And not only did he do this knowingly and illegally in a court of law, but he set his henchmen about impugning the reputation of his accuser and stripping her of every whit of veracity and dignity he could in the process." Mike Sheller

If Paula Jones ever had even a "whit of veracity and dignity", why did she choose to wait over ten years to make her accusations public? That hardly makes her sound like some kind of wronged virgin. Much is made of this supposedly huge obstruction of justice. Yet she herself waited until long after any any reasonable statute of limitations to make her accusations. Wasn't this also an obstruction?

But if this is really a sincere point of view, I assume it would include support for the impeachment of Ken Star for his illegal use of wire taps and the tape recorder by his agent Linda Tripp and for his illegal leaking of grand jury testimony throughout his investigation.

I wonder why that wasn't mentioned by Mike Sheller.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 13:55 - ID#266105)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:06 - ID#219363)
Your "ch-ch-ch-changes" title combined with Aurator and Nick/C's comments about American television, Clockwork Orange, and Jerry Springer reminded me of a David Bowie video I watched on television not too long ago. David Bowie was wandering around the streets of some big city, watching the people walking around him, then during the chorus of the song he would have to start running because someone would start chasing him, very paranoid feeling to the video. Of course, the title of the song is "I'm afraid of Americans".

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:11 - ID#190411)
Your 13:25 will be recalled as a Classic. Thanks for taking the time from your chores.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:17 - ID#266105)

Ground control to Kitco. Come in Kitco.

: )

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:21 - ID#190411)
You seem to know an awful lot about the world, and I enjoy the URL's that you post. If I can ask, where are you from?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:26 - ID#266105)

-- originally northern Minnesota, now on the Oregon coast
for past ten years or so. Just another bozo on a sidestreet
over yon of dime-a-dozen story. Smattering of college, no degree.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:34 - ID#190411)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:34 - ID#215379)
supporters of cllinton ??
Kitcoites in favor of clinton's behavior, NAAA....

Pacific Northwest Dave
(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:43 - ID#224205)
2BRO2B You live on the Or. Coast?

I live in Grants Pass, I monitor this site very often but rarely participate .

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:44 - ID#215379)
forex speculators...
Its those Big Money forex speculators that are the biggest Gold bears, they make their money on the flucuations of currency values and would be out of business if we got back on a gold standard. U.S. government supports them. 1.5 Trillion per day, is alot of political clout....

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:45 - ID#344326)
I just got an email from Ray. He thinks we goldbugs will be buying the world cheap. Got to love it. By the way, I just got back from Oregon. Drove down the coast through Cape Meares and down to Lincoln City then back to Portland. Absolutely beautiful. I can't wait to go back.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:47 - ID#266105)

Coos Bay, go through/worked in Grant's Pass often.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:48 - ID#266105)

crazytimes- yup. ( smirk )

(Sat Jan 16 1999 14:52 - ID#215379)
Who Cares, good point
Wasn't the collapse of Rome started by Nero's ( Clinton's ) fiddling while Rome burned..

(Sat Jan 16 1999 15:06 - ID#215379)
Question ?
Was the collapse in the gold and silver on Jan 12 caused by the intervention to support the dollar ? I was away from computer for a week. Thanks in advance.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 15:07 - ID#266105)

Interesting charts from da Bear's page--

(Sat Jan 16 1999 15:13 - ID#339274)
Date: Fri Jan 08 1999 12:30
Cyclist ( MM ) ID#339274:
XAU 68 has support,weak week coming up.Bonds to be stronger next week.
My top is 78-80 around the 22nd.

A flash during the week for gold,downtrend still operative
after the 22nd into February.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 15:25 - ID#258195)
Chicken man...Your 10:44 today re dollar price of gold
If, yesterday, my index had fallen to 62.18 and with yesterday's Trade Weighted Dollar at 104.4 on the Bank of England index against all currencies, ( or approx 105.0 on the JP Morgan index ) , the dollar price of gold would have been $269.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 15:37 - ID#34459)
The Cyclist
Cyclist.............Have missed your presence of late. Nice to see you are still among the faithful. I watch your post with interest during the week. I admire your trading style and aggressivness. How about giving up your E-Mail address so one could contact you direct.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 15:38 - ID#219363)
America Through My Eyes
I've been reading various people's views of what America could be, what it should be, and plenty of posts about what it used to be. Well, from my own perspective, let me tell you what it is, what I've seen in my 30 years on the planet, a short story about people I've known.
One of my friends lived on the beach most of his teenage years. He's adorned with tattoo's and rings and such, and he's a very nice guy. He ran with a few guys for years, picking up food when they needed it, mostly living off the tourists in Virginia beach. Their primary means of getting money was to break into cars and steal stereos which they sold to people in the area directly or through a vender. Lots of drugs, and he was a skin-head for a long time and got into a lot of fights with other ethnic groups on the boardwalk, his long time girlfriend was also a skin-head. He ended up being arrested as a minor a few times and got off, then eventually the judge through him in jail for a few years where he got a beautiful tattoo on his right leg, which he says he will not get completed until he ends up back in jail. Right now he works in a plant that processes chicken and turkey.

Another of my friends ended up in jail when he and his girlfriend moved down south to Atlanta. They were having trouble with money, he was a story teller by desire, and they jointly decided that they should invest what they had in a fast car. Interesting vehicle, the wheels were welded to the axle because the engine was so big. They began making money racing on Friday and Saturday nights on the freeways and back roads of Georgia until eventually one of the wheels came off the car and they couldn't afford to fix it. His girlfriend works at a movie theatre, I don't know what happened to him and haven't heard from him in about two years.

Yet another one of my friends ended up in an apartment by himself. He's a very smart guy, a loner. Two runaway girls came off the streets and needed a place to stay, so my friend put them up for a few weeks. Eventually they left and one of the girls had written an account of their journeys in her diary, they were on their way to California I seem to recall. One girl's father caught up to her and got hold of the diary, I guess he didn't like what he read, and he got my friend confused with one of her boyfriends that she had met up with. To make a long story short, he ended up in jail for messing around with a minor. When we were in high school he would on occasion bring a pistol to school and was always talking about shooting this guy that used to give him a hard time. His father and mother, well, I don't know what happened to them. I know his father was a successful guy living in Florida. Anyway, he lived with his grandmother most of his life, the only thing I know about her is that she drank too much. He works at a pizza place today.

One of my friends ended up going to college in California and has become a very successful doctor of medicine. His little trip through life included "coming out" while he was at school, and somewhere along the way he was shot. I believe he was mugged, I never heard all the details. Anyway, he eventually recovered and my understanding is that he's doing okay up north somewhere.

Yet another of my friends was an independent film guy. He grew up on the streets riding his skateboard whenever he wanted to go somewhere. He and his brother are a team, they stay together most of the time. His brother got into a fight in Richmond and was shot in the chest, he survived but still has some problems to this day.

One guy I knew in school ended up dealing drugs, went through prison and was killed for drug money in his mountain home at the age of 21. His father passed away and his mother still lives in the same place. The person or persons who killed him were never caught, but drug related items were found at the scene of the crime and so drugs were suspected to be involved. I assume it was a deal that went bad.

One very close friend killed himself while he was in high school. I don't know all the details, but apparently he had been chasing after a girl that he wanted to date, she rejected him, and he pulled the trigger in his bedroom at home. He was a very smart guy, I liked him a lot. He wrote a lot of very good poetry and did well in school while he was alive. The thing I remember most about him was that he was just a nice guy to everyone he met, he was 17 when he died.

One of my friends is an older gentleman, a successful doctor. His daughter and some of her friends broke into his house one night and stole all the weapons he had. The girl's boyfriend eventually dumped her and used one of the guns in a crime, which is the reason it was recovered and returned. All the coins he had in the house, and the jewelry were also stolen and were never recovered. She eventually ran away from home and joined the military and is currently in Hawaii.

One of my close friends is a business person today. He started out in a successful rock band with a few albums when he was young and ended up spending time in jail on drug related charges, I didn't know him then. I met him after he got out and put himself to good use. He's now married and has two children.

One girl I knew in school killed her mother. Her mom was a teacher at my high school and the girl was about 17, in high school with me. I don't know any of the details, I just know the girl and her boyfriend shot her mother at home, stole a bunch of stuff, and ran away. They were caught and the girl ended up in jail after a quiet trial.
All of these people are under 30 years old, or were before they died or were killed. I could go on and on and I didn't include addiction, pregnancy, etc. You might think by reading this that I hung out with some rough folks, but that's not the case at all, I'm a very normal guy who doesn't drink or use drugs, and these are normal people that I've known, people I grew up with. My only point is, this stuff isn't just on television. I've got your America right here, I've seen it through my own eyes. I love this country very much and often wonder if the problems I've seen people my age go through are of their own making or if there's something wrong in the world today. I suspect that these are stories that have repeated through-out time, that it's the nature of people in general, that things might not be any worse now than they have ever been, but I have no evidence, this is the only time I've ever known. I can say this, when I see on the news that a 10 year old kid just killed his classmates at school, I'm not surprised. Things were moving in that direction when I was a child.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 16:07 - ID#404124)

PS: Realistic....please take note of time and day of this post.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 16:18 - ID#404124)

I like cycling myself.Hey! I even do re-cycling.But tell me/us......

How can you technically forecast a market that is being traded on everything but technicials?


Just curious.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 16:18 - ID#254321)
A Sobering story
Envy: Thanks for letting us know what your experiences have been in your thirty years. My generation is one generation older than yours. Do you think the experiences among your less fortunate friends were created in part by having too much leisure time in families that were very well off? Or -- do you think it has to do with both spouses working?

I am trying to understand how this could happen. I honestly have never been exposed directly to this culture.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 16:44 - ID#371380)
Why did she say that?
I just had a customer come in and tell me that all the gold in the world is going to melt in the year 2000. No explanation. Out of the blue. Why?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 16:49 - ID#250298)
I live 25 miles north of Fort Worth Texas. TheFW newspaper ( Star-Telegram ) decided to conduct a poll by allowing their readers to
rate the behavior of the people/institutions/businesses listed below AND
to vote Yes/No on impeaching WJC. They did this because their Editorial
Board wondered whether or not the national polls accurately represented
their readers. The Board began to wonder about this when they received
thousands of inquiries from their readers asking where the *#@! the poll
counts came from that indicated 60% of Americans were AGAINST impeaching
WJC. Anybody who wanted to participate in the S-T poll could do so by
email, snail mail, fax, phone calls, or in person. The poll was initiated 13 Dec and the results published 20 the votes were
not affected by the vote on impeachment held on 19 Dec.

This was not a scientific poll for several reasons, primarily because
the participating citizens were self-selected, ie; you had to care enough
to get off your butt to participate. I think this factor makes the results more valuable to politicians because people who care enough to
participate probably care enough to GO VOTE on election day...and it is
the opinions of VOTERS who count, not the opinions of people who are all
talk but do not vote.

Here are the poll results from the more than 6,500 people who rated the conduct of each of the following:
Good Fair Poor
Clinton................ 29.4 9.0 61.6
Starr.................. 49.6 10.3 40.1
Lewinski*.............. 6.1 28.9 65.0
Hillary................ 41.8 13.4 44.8
Henry Hyde............. 51.9 15.2 32.9
Rep in Congress........ 33.6 26.3 40.1
Dem in Congress........ 20.5 27.5 52.0
Star Telegram.......... 31.8 50.4 17.8
Median in general...... 8.0 34.0 58.0

* This is a rating of Lewinski's general conduct, not her performance in
the Oval Office.

Here are the poll results on Impeaching WJC:

YES: 61.1% No: 38.0%

So, if you can't judge a book by its cover, you can't judge a nation from
its media BS. There is hope for us after all ( at least in FW Texas ) .

(Sat Jan 16 1999 16:58 - ID#34459)
US Public Debt
As of 1-13-99 The US Public Debt was........

$ 5,618,299.396.528.70

A number that is hard to relate to. I don't see how this
amount of money can ever be retired. This is the amout of debt the USA has accumulated in GOOD times, What will happen if the good times suddenly end?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:07 - ID#219363)
I'm afraid I can't be much help. It's hard to analyze something unless you're an outsider, I can't be objective. As far as family goes, a good many people I grew up with didn't have one, or if they did, they had one parent that worked. Many did have two parents, it probably doesn't matter one way or the other. Who can say. Kids today mostly raise each other, parents don't figure into it as much as they used to. Gangs are the extreme result of kids raising each other, families complete with their own traditions, symbols, territory, even their own language and rites of passage. Ask your own kids. Do they spend most of their time talking to you ? I doubt it. They're probably on the telephone talking with their friends, or running around the city at night in a friend's car. I don't think most parents care what their kids do today which is good, because today's kids don't think it's any of your business anyway. There are many advantages to being a kid today, they're independent, they know how to avoid getting killed on the streets, they can take care of themselves. Kids today can see through a lot more bullsh*t than their parents could, they're pretty honest folks. I don't think the trend is bad, kids today aren't "broken", they're just different. Every generation is created by their environment, I guess kids today are just a trademarked product of America, Inc.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:07 - ID#250298)
Reposting Poll Results
The poll results are re-posted below in a more readable format. In the
original posting they were lined up nice & tidy & readable...something
jumbled them enroute to getting posted:

Clinton.........Good 29.4%...Fair 9.0%...Poor 61.6%
Starr...........Good 49.6%...Fair 10.3%...Poor 40.1%
Lewinski........Good 6.1%...Fair 28.9%...Poor 65.0%
Hillary.........Good 41.8%...Fair 13.4%...Poor 44.8%
Henry Hyde......Good 51.9%...Fair 15.2%...Poor 32.9%
Rep. in Cong....Good 33.6%...Fair 26.3%...Poor 40.1%
Dem. in Cong....Good 20.5%...Fair 27.5%...Poor 52.0%
Star-Telegram...Good 31.8%...Fair 50.4%...Poor 17.8%
Media...........Good 8.0%...Fair 34.0%...Poor 58.0%

Impeach WJC.....Yes...61.6%..No...38.9%

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:16 - ID#190411)
This is the best prose Saturday of all time. That was a powerful recollection.
I am older than you by 18 years. I suppose that that is a generation in these times.
My twelve year-old daughter placed fourth in a math competition for the county today. I can address some of the things that set your acquaintences and friends.
I have let the family structure decline as I have tried to make the business go. Time for discussion of the inconsequential thoughts that occupy children's minds, has been at a premium.
I did make time for the contest questions, and taught Claire the Pythagorean theorem, the way to break up polygons for area computation, proportionality, and mult/div of fractions in the three days that were alotted, in the single hour per night that I have after work.
The look of the lights coming on in a child's head is the greatest pleasure that I can recall.
The gold related stuff is that she got an Austrian ( 1915 ) 100 Corona, SFr 20 ( 1935 ) Helvetia, FFr 20 ( 1912 ) rooster, and a FFr 20 ( 1887 ) Angel. The coins cannot be spent, so, I'll use them for a lesson in history. It's a pity that the monetary predators that define the age didn't learn about the money system tthat was so foolishly discarded.
She cannot spend those archaic coins, so I was browbeaten into allowing self-mutilation via a second hole in her earlobe. May it be filled with aurum.
Some kid, someday, will be lucky to have you for an oldman.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:28 - ID#26793)
Economic crisis in Venezuela. Will it be the next victim?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:36 - ID#26793)
Asset quality of Philippine banks has sharply deteriorated; Moody's may downgrade

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:41 - ID#34459)
Found A Gem......................
Annual and Quarterly reports are sometimes dry reading. but found this little morsel hidden in a news release. Several mutual fund managers were reported to be considering added this little number to their porfolios in the near future. I looked it up and it"s got the right stuff.
I do not have ANy vested interest in this one YET.

FGX.V Francisco Gold on the Vancouver Exchange
Close 1/15/99 Canadian at $9.50

Has a market cap of only $100 million
Has $25 million in Cash
Has NO Debt

Has a potential of 250,000 to 300,000 oz of AU a year
Co is in late stage development and ready to dig it up
Co has a cash cost of $100.00 oz per oz of AU produced

I am not a stock promoter, I promise, do your due diligence and see if this is not a sleeper.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:48 - ID#26793)
Mexico braces for a new currency crisis

(Sat Jan 16 1999 17:50 - ID#20359)
PH in LA, Namaste' gulp and a puff to and your thoughts are the toothless
disease riddled whore to whom the truth shall never be known...Gods and communists can kiss my American ass...within freedom I bathe, there is no house, no central emotive heating...for each and every ONE...a time to contemplate but not order...

You who speak so freely should not twist that which is what allows you to exist...your tongue is only free because of what you speak so very disrespectfully towards and to...

These banker whores who create that world you live in, I hope the hands that strangle your BS allow you a taste...

Myself...I have no taste for it...not since my birth...

(Sat Jan 16 1999 18:04 - ID#253418)
Gollum re your 13:25
Good points regarding the Brazilian situation and the dollar.

I can not believe that the US stock market would put on such a fireworks show on Friday. What changed? Brazil will float, the others in Central AMerica will float. Dollar debts will not get repaid.

There is little or no rationality left. At some point gold and silver will be discovered. I think the downside is limited in both. The tell tail sign that the rally has really begun will be the time when the stock market falls and gold stocks rally. That is the time to get aggresive.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 18:14 - ID#35757)
IMF Help
Don't accept anything from this man....,5,4093,00.html

(Sat Jan 16 1999 18:20 - ID#334219)
Along the same lines of Franciso Gold, take a look at Southwestern Gold ( SWG.T ) . I think the deal is even better over the long term.

Claude Cormier
Editor, The Goldbug's Comment.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 18:35 - ID#20359)
Where do the IMF dirtbags live...where is the power...America slits it's own throat...
It is YOUR money/throat AMERICA or is it? WASHINGTON  Brazilian Finance Minister Pedro Malan arrived for urgent talks with IMF officials on Saturday to discuss a new exchange rate policy following Brazil's shock decision to float its currency, the real.

Yeah...let's all get it money...or isn't it?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:07 - ID#431200)
Other countries urge exchange controls just as Brazil backs away

(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:10 - ID#431200)
Other countries urge exchange controls just as Brazil backs away
FRANKFURT ( AP ) - Just as Brazil was letting its currencys value float in the marketplace, Japan, Germany and France pushed harder Friday for an international system to control the wild swings in exchange rates that have roiled world markets since mid-1997.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:27 - ID#428218)
PH in LA....after all YOUR fanfare of a month or so ago......

YOUR BACK.......and after accusing Kitco members of being half-wits !

Your are clearly a man of double standards... clearly a man who uses plenty of spray insecticides, and the reads the label !

Were you perhaps in "LA STORY", or was that not trendy enough for you ?

Mate, Clinton tells so many lies that he can't remember to who he told what.

What does Clinton say to his wife after he has had sex..."Honey, i will be home in 15 minutes".........tells a story !



Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:28 - ID#428218)
PH in LA....after all YOUR fanfare of a month or so ago......

YOUR BACK.......and after accusing Kitco members of being half-wits !

Your are clearly a man of double standards... clearly a man who uses plenty of spray insecticides, and the reads the label !

Were you perhaps in "LA STORY", or was that not trendy enough for you ?

Mate, Clinton tells so many lies that he can't remember to whom he told what.

What does Clinton say to his wife after he has had sex..."Honey, i will be home in 15 minutes".........tells a story !



(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:28 - ID#34459)
CC and your comments re FGX.V
Southwestern Gold.....SWG.T is a good play, no doubt about it.
I'm familiar with it, BUT it has already tripled in the last year, not to say it won't again. FGX.V has a chart pattern that is compelling, it is ready to soar and right now. No one has boosted this stock and it has been under accumulation. It is only a couple dollars off of a low and is just beginning a major move. It has a chart pattern I love to find.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:30 - ID#428218)
PH in LA....after all YOUR fanfare of a month or so ago......

YOUR BACK.......and after accusing Kitco members of being half-wits !

Your are clearly a man of double standards... clearly a man who uses plenty of spray insecticides, and then reads the label !

Were you perhaps in "LA STORY", or was that not trendy enough for you ?

Mate, Clinton tells so many lies that he can't remember to whom he told what.

What does Clinton say to his wife after he has had sex..."Honey, i will be home in 15 minutes".........tells a story !



Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:38 - ID#428218)
tolerant1 (PH in LA,)..............

One must e tolerant and understanding of PH in LA......only he knows why he wears rubber and sandpaper underwear, to help keep him alert !

Most likely his other past time is wearing unnatural fabrics and wildly rolling around on nylon carpets !

ENOUGH.....of this taunting a religious, sorry Clinton, fanatic !



(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:40 - ID#300202)
Go to re Kodak vs Clik---Alternative to Film-Kodak in Trouble. Cud not access article

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:49 - ID#428218)
Envy (America Through My Eyes).......

STRUTH...... now I can understand why America does not pay its' way...

One could always adopt the philosophy that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem - hence the US national debt is probably personally your fault...... or is it PH in LA fault.... or is it.................................

I have a your debts.

Perhaps you should have adopted a Scots philosphy....avoid debt !


(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:56 - ID#267298)
Winspear Resources
Apparently Winspear released some news yesterday.
I can't find it. Nothing on their web site. Anyone know
where I might find it.

This is Gold related, If I make money on Winspear
I'll buy Gold.......

Go Gold.....................

(Sat Jan 16 1999 19:58 - ID#307274)
@jls Re: Polls
I believe this poll is representative of the Star-Telegram coverage. The people in FW are among the most amicable in the US, and reflect the persona of our founding fathers. As a young aerodynamicist working for GD on military jets during the vietnam war, I first encountered the Fort Worth hospitality--the most genuinely warm and friendly people I have ever known anywhere. That notwithstanding, the people are politically conservative, despising the very grit of Clintonianism.

I urge genuine believers in American freedom and especially those who share the Christian faith of our founders to continue in diligent prayer to remove this sty from our rulership. Prayer changes history:Rev 8:1-6.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:04 - ID#348257)
Another philosophical, introspective Saturday
at Kitco.

Asking Sheller to lighten up
and I thought I did
when I brought some light regarding this unseemly impeachement -
a peach of
an impeachment -
elucidating the REAL reasons why
Clinton ought to be impeached.

And as for Kenneth Starr
I can comment only upon one case at a time. In the Army I was taught to look first very close to one's self whilst on guard. No sense casting one's eyes to the far horizon when someone is creeping up to stab you in the back.

Herewith I am called "legalistic"
by a Kitcoite brother
yet there is always
for any society
and civilization
a line drawn in the sand

a line between progress and
a movement forward for humanity
and between falling backward into the darkness of a barbarous past
and present...
will it be future too?

Take YOUR choice.

Let him who is without sin
cast the first stone????


then ANYTHING goes.
Where is your sister? Where is your wife?
Where is your girl child?

Are you ready to cast THEM upon the altar of Moloch?

If not, then hold your tongue, and be ready to accept the terrible duty of sitting in judgement
of a fellow human being
( whilst you yourself are weak and sinful as well )
in the name of all humanity

Can you straighten up for a moment and do this?

(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:10 - ID#34459)
ZeKe...About that prayer.......
I'd like to join you, I can only hope for my children's sake, one is four, one is 15 that our father in Heaven will hear our plea's and deliver us from this evil that has been cast upon our great land.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:17 - ID#307274)
He hears, and He answers. Watch with me the days coming upon the earth. I believe you will see the sneers and smirks turned to weeping. We ( believers ) must stay on our faces before him in the coming days and give no heed to detractors or pseudoreligionists.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:18 - ID#428218)
Do you know that..........

(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:20 - ID#169332)
Update on program "Space Ace," (from 01/05/99)
I learned today that the program Space Ace, which I mentioned in my post of January 5,1999 is not available at at present; but will be , when Rich Levin gets to putting up his already completed, upgraded version ( " Space Ace III" ) on his site. He said he will do so in a few days. *

Another program I might mention is Clipmate 5.0 ( THORNSOFT.COM ) . Introduced in 1991, it's the only program they do. Clipmate has very powerful clipboard features, quite useful in storing, collating etc. multiple posts. Free, full version trial available.
* from 01/05/99:
"....I often suspect Microsoft software for anything that seems sluggish or screwed up. Maybe this has something to do with Kitco's woes that come and go. Maybe software by the big M isn't involved in anyway. I am sure -- it's fact --Microsoft programs will take an hour to do some things that others' programs accomplish in less than one real-time minute ( like partitioning a hard drive ) . Generally, my experience with Microsoft is that it often clutters my system with "invisible" junk files, and sometimes does worse things. Just connecting to MSNBC etc. seems to do this. Purging my hard drive of useless files, regularly, helps. Commercial programs ( like Cleansweep ) are dangerous because they sometimes remove necessary files. I avoid using them unless I know precisely what I need removed. This can be time-consuming. There is a free program, "Space Ace II" by Rich Levin, which has never done anything bad to me, and I use it regularly, sometimes several times a day, if my system acts slow; even while on the Net ( with two browsers  neither by Microsoft running ) . Being on the Web generates a lot of junk: junk is all that is removed by Space Ace . I don't have to monitor what it does. I think one site for the program is

Another way to try to work with a slow website is to use multiple windows. Several Kitcoites have explained how they do this. My variation is to have six windows open of a single site on a single screen ( with one of my browsers, leaving a second browser free to use ) . Opera 3.50 does this most easily for me, compared to other browsers I've worked with. I hope these simple observations are helpful and of practical use to some...."

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:21 - ID#348257)
sorry, brother, but I came in late to this sermon. How definest thou "psuedoreligionists"?

Does this have something to do with oxen being gored?

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:27 - ID#428218)
Did you ever get THAT feeling.......


If you had $100, you could buy $1,000 worth of stock on $900 of short-term credit made available by the Federal Reserve. On a 15-day
promissory note, you sold the stock two weeks later, for perhaps $1,100. The Federal Reserve gladly granted another buyer the credit
necessary to re-purchase the stocks. Prices were consistently elevated by the very proportions of credit sanctioned by Federal Reserve

In two weeks, after selling your $1,000 purchase for $1,100 and paying your $900 debt, you had doubled your $100 savings -- which of course
were immediately re-invested on further short-term credit. Particularly with a dramatically inflating circulation, no one could truly afford to leave
their money outside of circles which did not directly swallow this stream of credit -- where the real value of money depreciated against the
inflation brought on by an ever-inflated circulation. And so, there were no savings. Spare money rode the 'securities' market.

Swelled consistently by this steady stream of ever greater credit, the market would re-purchase the stocks. A perpetually inflated circulation
alone made this both possible and necessary -- to fulfill the obligations of the ever greater debt simultaneously incurred.

As the exchanges closed on Black Friday however, suddenly the very same bankers who saw fit to inflate the costs of securities upon so much
debt, now withdrew further credit from the market. Stockholders suddenly had the weekend to contemplate the prospect of selling their indebted
stocks to a market which would now be deprived of the credit absolutely necessary to buy them as would fulfill the debt incurred in their
purchase. Only 10% of the currency necessary to do so existed -- and even this was in the hands of the same bankers.

Tremendous short-term debt existed -- all soon due. Virtually no circulation existed to redeem this debt. Further credit, absolutely necessary to
redeem the current debt, would no longer be available.

Hence, the following Monday could only see, all at once, the precipitous crash of the market; real ownership of commerce and real property fall
into the hands of twelve private corporations by foreclosure and dispossession which ensued; and the initiation of the Great Depression.

It was mathematically impossible for the market not to crash.


Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:28 - ID#348257)
just read your 19:58 - my wholehearted thanks for your work on behalf of the air cover for us lowly government issue serfs on the ground in Vietnam. A true gulp and a puff to ya from me! No kidding.

But again, as ( I believe ) a "true" believer" myself ( though many would condemn me to the stake for my astrological proclivities, themselves not understanding the Zodiacal basis behind the Bible ) - what did you mean by "psuedoreligionists"?

I find this a truly pregnant ( and not a divine conception either ) and potentially explosive word? Please define and instruct as to how one can determine same.

Thank you.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:33 - ID#367411)
To Mike Sheller re Moon/Silver & Merriman
Hi Mike!

I have found your writing on the influence of the sun/moon/stars on markets interesting, although I am not yet able to understand the fundamentals of such analysis.

Being a silver bug, I recently purchased Merriman's "The Sun The Moon and the Silver Market". Since I don't have a background in this field, I have found that understanding the content will take significant study......what is your opinion of Merriman's work? Is there a better place to start a study in this field?

I would also love to see you predictions for silver this year in more detail ( sun, moon, stars ) .

Thanks in advance!


Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:37 - ID#428218)

Need to do some reasearch into companies or projects.....

Check out the following:

Both are CD ROM projects, the first a wee bit pricey, the second reasonable cost.


Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:38 - ID#428218)

Need to do some research into companies or projects.....

Check out the following:

Both are CD ROM projects, the first a wee bit pricey, the second reasonable cost.


Greenstone Gold
(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:47 - ID#428218)
Does anyone know..... many gold mineral occurrences there are in America ?

Where are they, and who presently has them under tenement ?

In Australia, there are in excess of 24 000 gold occurrences which I have located via GIS and tenement holdings. You would be surprised how many are "unpegged".

RTime to "go bush" and make GOLD.............


(Sat Jan 16 1999 20:47 - ID#307274)
Res Ipsa Loquitur. I love the Byrds' song, don't you? Now is that time.
Good night.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:08 - ID#20359)
Mike Sheller, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...utilize your powers...tell me...who will
win the next Kentucky Derby...if not respond by email...something else...

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:18 - ID#348257)
My prime focus for silver this year is the conjunction ( lining up at the same degree ) of the transiting Jupiter ( Jupiter presently moving in the "heavens" ) with the position of the Moon in the horoscope of the New York Stock Exchange. You will find that throughout antiquity, and among present day astrologers and students of esoteric symbolism, the Moon is the astrological significator of Silver ( Each planet and body has a metal over which it rules, among other things ) . The conjunction of Jupiter with NYSE Moon which takes place at 19 degrees Aries in early May of this year will probably have a very potent effect upon silver prices. Inasmuch as the price is low and deown NOW, I would lean toward the action 4 months from now being positive. I see the approach of the conjunction kicking silver into a rally mode, with peak of action around the conjunction or just after.

As for material that might help you get a handle on astrological applications in markets, I recommend "Financial Astrology" by LCdr David Williams. The old retired Commander did a good job in introducing many aspects of occult study in market and cycle behavior, with especial emphasis on astrology. Merriman is good, and I highly recommend anything that pertains to human astrology for an understanding of the planetary and Zodiacal qualities and potential results of their interactions . Like all "market" astrologers, I started with people's horoscopes, and this is really the foundation and most important application of the art. Astrology is actually a form of esoteric psychology, using an "x-ray" that the patient cannot deny ( the individual horoscope ) once it is exposed to the trained interpreter.

Good luck.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:21 - ID#350288)
Been studying.

Well gang, some things never change. I haven't posted in a few months but have occasionally lurked. Gold hasn't moved, silver still stalled, Dow still heading higher, Pres. still contributing to the moral decay of our great land and the real truth of everything from where we came from to where we are going still being kept under lock and key. I feel close to you all because I feel many of you know whats up. The markets have turned into such a sham. The govt. is playing them like they play everything else. Millions of people are standing at the edge financial ruin and they don't have a clue. When will it end? I fully expect it will come tumbling down this year. Why? Well not because of Brazil or Asia but because of something much more global. I will not state my reasoning because it so wild that few would take it seriously. Instead I will give some clues and let those interested find out for themselves. After all, you are much more likely to be convinced of something if you figuer it out on your own. That is unless you are one of the sheep following the lead of Peter Jennings.
Clue #1 - Vatican observatory in USA
Clue #2 - Nostradamus 7th month 1999 prediction.
Clue #3 - Why Saddam is still around.
Clue #4 - Zacharia Sitchen
Clue #5 - John Glenn's latest mission.
Clue #6 - JJ Hurtak's Keys of Enoch
Clue #7 - **** ******** *** ******.

I cant wait to see how many of you allready have it.
Got Gold? Good

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:21 - ID#348257)
always appreciate a straight from the shoulder answer. Like to know where I stand.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:25 - ID#348257)
that's a horse of a different color.
Horse racing astrologers ( yes, they exist ) must study as many charts as there are horses in each race.
I've often thought it would be fun, but I'm a speculator, not a bettor, and besides, I would have to work with someomne who knew the in's and outs of horse racing and betting etc, just like Kitcoites know options, futures, exchange rates, & etc. My little brain can just take SO much research and study.

Now, of course, if some big horse player with a few Mil wanted to do a joint venture in R&D....

gert frobe
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:28 - ID#42963)
@ Mike Sheller: What is the astrological analysis for $370 gold by
April? thanks.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:29 - ID#344239)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:30 - ID#255284)
The Power of Kings......
I see youre getting a bit of the borax today, I have no wish to add to your troubles. In the interests, though, of historical accuracy, I wish to dispute your 10:24. I wish to emphasise that I do not want to get involved in the Merkan discussion about Clinton. Clintons presidency is part of the shared karma of each Merkan, how you react to Clintons actions is entirely up to you. However, brother, when you state:

America was the first nation to declare that the "King" existed to serve the people, not the other way around. To deprive a citizen of a right to fair trial and airing of greivance by legal subterfuge, or just plain lying, should not be just an ugly and offensive act to Americans.

I have to draw your attention to the Quiet Rebellion, that led to the 1689 Bill of Rights in old Limey, [not RJ, but Pommieland]. Here are some clippings from the www on this Bill of Rights 1689...

The Bill of Rights was designed to control the power of kings and queens and to make them subject to laws passed by Parliament.

This bill was a precursor to the American Bill of Rights, and set out strict limits on the Royal Family's legal prerogatives such as a prohibition against arbitrary suspension of Parliament's laws. More importantly, it limited the right to raise money through taxation to Parliament.

The English elite had just succeeded in ousting the Catholic King James, who had offended the protestant Church of England by aggressively promoting the Roman Catholic religion, in spite of laws that Parliament had passed. William of Orange and his wife Mary were crowned King and Queen of England ( Mary was actually the daughter of the deposed King James II ) in Westminster Abbey on April 11, 1689. As part of their oaths, the new King William III and Queen Mary were required to swear that they would obey the laws of Parliament. At this time, the Bill of Rights was read to both William and Mary. "We thankfully accept what you have offered us," William replied, agreeing to be subject to law and to be guided in his actions by the decisions of Parliament.
[mozel, a good link for your armoury, I'd've thought]

If one has the patience, I recommend a reading of the Commentary, particularly on the prohibition of the past practice of Dispensation, in which the Monarch could dispense with Acts of Parliament that inconvenienced him.

That the pretended power of suspending of laws, or the execution of laws, by regal authority, without consent of parliament, is illegal.

This Bill of Rights forms the cornerstone of the limitation of power by the executive. A NZ Prime Minister, Muldoon, actually breached this provision of the Bill of Rights Act, in 197? when, after succeeding in an election, and before Parliament had met, declared that certain type of superannuation payments required by law to be paid, need not be paid. He had acted outside the constitution by the declaration, this was noted, of course there was no penalty, as the first thing Parliament did when it sat was to change the law.

Now, to put this into better perspective, we have, in our anglo-phonic ethnocentric way only looked at the UK and the US.

I suspect that much of the history of the world is actually the fight of the people against the king, or the sultan, or the chief, or the Emperor, or the Caliph.

Neither the UK nor the US were the first peoples to lop off a kings head or throw him into the snake pit.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:34 - ID#348257)
ah c'mon, can't you feed us sheep just a little more explicitly?

Funny you mention the Vatican...I see by the ol' Holy See's horoscope that in the Middle of February the transiting Uranus conjuncts Vatican's Mercury at 13 Aquarius ( important news? ) , then through the whole month of March Jupiter sweeps across Vatican's Uranus/Venus natal conjunction. I might interpret that as stunning news, with sudden, perhaps shocking reverberations of change, possibly related to the female role in the Church, Church "values", or Church finances. Down the road, Uranus is steaming toward the Sun in Vatican 10th House ( house of leadership ) which means the year 2000 may portend some important changes or threats to Papal leadership.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:35 - ID#367411)
To Mike Sheller
Thank you very much for your quick response!!

I really appreciate your help in this new field of study. This is obviously a major undertaking and I plan to take it one step at a time. I sincerely that you can offer guidance from time to time. I will start with the book you recommended.

"The conjunction of Jupiter with NYSE Moon which takes place at 19 degrees Aries in early May of this year will probably have a very potent effect upon silver prices. Inasmuch as the price is low and deown NOW, I would lean toward the action 4 months from now being positive. I see the approach of the conjunction kicking silver into a rally mode, with peak of action around the conjunction or just after."

Would this "peak of action" also signify a peak in trading volume and price? This is crucial from a "timing" perspective. Do you see a quick move up to May and then another drop back to lower prices, or a major move beginning at the May peak and moving through the rest of the year?

Supply/demand fundamentals would indicate that at one point or another prices must rise for an extended period to bring more silver into the marketplace.



(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:36 - ID#210114)
aurator: Closet Marxist??
"I suspect that much of the history of the world is actually the fight of the people against the
king, or the sultan, or the chief, or the Emperor, or the Caliph."

Hmm.... very interesting.

Marx said that "history was the history of class struggle"

Live Long and Prosper Comrade!

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:38 - ID#255284)
Not logical. Nope. Your last post was Vituperan rather than Vulcan.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:42 - ID#348257)
thanx for the history lesson. I was on my soapbox when I made that statement. But you get my drift.
As for "troubles," I have none from Kitcoites. I suffer their slings and arrows as gleefully as their accolades. It troubles me not. Borax is a fine cleanser.

'Merikans are, deep down, not much different than anyone else. I love America, but I love the cultures and configurations of many other nations as well. I just happen to live here and I think it is a unique and karmic experiment on the part of the governors of the universe ( and I don't mean the PPT or the financial cabal keeping gold down ) .

It is the HUMAN CONDITION that we must ALL deal with, 'Merikan or no. And in that regard we are all on the same planet. Singling out any one nation for particular scrutiny is a passing thing*. Nothing should be inferred by it one way or another. So it pains me to see such frequent poking at America by certain Kitcoites now and then. But this too is a very human reaction I suppose.

*Except for New Zealand maybe....

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:46 - ID#350288)

Did I hear you go Baa Baa.
Dont even think of yourself as a sheep.
I have your your post abd you certianly dont seem the type to be swayed easily.

Chicken man
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:47 - ID#341225)
FRidays market rallay
IMHO.. it more than likely had to do with option expiry than any thing else

FWIW...option expiry dates are on different dates of the month for different markets..i.e..stocks and indexes are the third Fri...metals are around the second Fri,Mar options expire Feb 12...curiencies expire Feb 5...bonds expire next Fri

Prices tend to get warped and move in strange pattern due to positioning near the expiry dates...kind of like the tail wagging the dog...

(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:48 - ID#210114)
Telling it like it is.....

Globalisation is dead:
Sun, 17 Jan 1999

A speech by internationally acclaimed historian and writer John
Raulston Saul saw sell-out crowds at the University of New
South Wales in Sydney last night.

The Canadian author of The Unconscious Civilisation spoke at
an international conference on environmental education, about
globalisation and democracy.

Mr Saul says the trend towards international globalisation policy is
on the turn because the policy has failed.

He says the international economic crisis is evidence of this.

"Globalisation as presented and advanced is anti-democratic and
is a failed experiment," Mr Saul said.

"There is an enormous danger in denying that failure and denying
the fact that markets are not self-regulating.

"Markets have never been self-regulating, markets will never be
self-regulating," he said.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:50 - ID#348257)
here is where the astrologer presumes upon God...

but yes, I would say that just prior to the conjunction ( late April ) and AT the conjunction ( first week in May ) we should be seeing maximum activity for this move. That would include both peak price action and volume, naturally. But there can be variations and this is just a general observation. I see a gradual buyilding of a bull swing into this peak window, probably picking up steam through Feb/March, with an important trend clearly underway by March/April. BUT - we could also see a very slow start, with the conjunction activity being the boost to a rise in prices from that point on.

My personal interepretation is for a building of momentum into the early May peak of action window.
Obviously, taking positions now in volatile silver shares that have been beaten down is one excellent way to play this. The downside risk is small, while the upside potential of some kind of eruption between now and May is quite tempting. YEs, this is a wonderful timing clue.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 21:55 - ID#348257)
It's not that I am particularly swayed easily, but I DO love to hear really bold predictions and observations by people who are not thinking like the crowd. I can also learn a lot from other people's radical views and presentations. We all have our fill of the pap and pablum. I want the good stuff from people, right or wrong, "crazy" or "logical". I'll make up my own mind, but I'll respect the unique point of view - whatever it is.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:03 - ID#348257)
Only a totally free market is self regulating, but even without such an ideal situation, ANY market is self regulating. If by "regulating" you mean you wish the patterns of buying and selling to accommodate YOUR objectives, then perhaps you may indeed find reason to complain and cry "foul." But where all are free to buy or sell a thing, then the current price is the true and fair one, and every bit of "manipulation" is all part of the activity of the various participants. That is what a MARKET is. Any aberration of basic laws of supply and demand will be self regulated, even if it takes a disaster to do so. But a crash is every bit an activity of self-regulation as an orderly decline.

A kitcoite recently took me to task for saying "The market is always right." I stand by this, and maintain that a market cannot be anything BUT right. It is some of the participants who are wrong, some of the time. Or all of the time. In which case they most certainly must pine for "regulation" inasmuch as they can't do any worse, and maybe better if things were manipulated THEIR way. IMVHO.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:06 - ID#367411)
To Mike Sheller re Silver
Thanks so much!

I understand full well that this info should only be understood as a "potential direction of the market" rather than a "hard and fast rule of which direction it will go".

I love the silver set-up, and your interpretation of the stars adds another interesting bullish edge to the current movement. It would be interesting indeed to speculate based on this timing bias you have provided.

So far I have tried to pick up far out options to maximize my time exposure, but the option prices are up and it might be interesting to pick up some that expire in the first half of the year given this potential May peak.


Apr 1999 Silver Calls, Expiration Date = 990312

$5.75 strike, 6 cent premium, $300 per contract ( 5000 ounces )

Wonder if this would give me enough time.......

On the other hand, as you pointed out the silver mining shares don't expire ( at least not immediately ) , so they may be a better way to play this without getting the timing exactly right.

Thanks again!


(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:07 - ID#210114)
Beaming Up Now....
Of to watch the Aussies thrash the Poms at Cricket.

To Mike Sheller: "The Market Ueber alles"!!

Live Long and Prosper.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:09 - ID#402236)
Down the road, Uranus is steaming toward the Sun.
Copious amounts of Prep H is what I would recommend!!

(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:14 - ID#350288)

If I told you I would be telling everyone. My hope is that just one would go down the yellow brick road and find Oz. Can you dig.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:15 - ID#335190)
MILK @ Mad Cow Disease - increased breast and colon cancer - cause of allergies - heart disease
January 16, 1999

Monsanto says will appeal Canada cow hormone ban

CHICAGO, Jan 16 ( Reuters ) - Life-sciences firm Monsanto Co. said on Saturday it would challenge the Canadian government's rejection of a hormone that boosts milk production in cows.

The hormone, bovine somatotropin or BST, was approved in the United States in late 1993 and is used in the U.S., Mexico, Brazil and Israel, among other countries.

Barton said the market for the BST hormone was growing at about 30 percent a year in the United States.

This man POSED
for a "Milk Moustache"
... and he is allergic to

June 17, 1998 Dede Wilson, Chocolatier Magazine

"President Clinton is allergic to chocolate, and apparently dairy and wheat, so the desserts are heavily fruit-based," says Wilson.


THIS CLINTON LIE causes disease and suffering and IS grounds for impeachment!

Milk: The Deadly Poison
by Robert Cohen

This is a shocking book.

Recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone ( rBGH ) is a wonder drug invented by Monsanto scientists. Shoot up a cow with this stuff, and you can get 50 quarts of milk a day out of her, instead of the two quarts a day our forefathers had to be satisfied with.

There's an even bigger problem: rBGH ( which is banned in Europe ) increases levels in the cow's milk of a powerful growth hormone that causes cancer.

Now Monsanto claims that pasteurization destroys this cancer-producing agent. But the same tests the FDA used to approve rBGH show otherwise.


REVIEW of MILK:The Deadly Poison by Jane Heimlich, author of What Your Doctor Won't Tell You ( Jane Heimlich is the wife of Henry Heimlich, MD, the "Heimlich Maneuver doctor. )

Reading this book, you will learn that milk contributes to heart disease and increases your risk of breast cancer.

You will learn that milk is a poor source of calcium and why, and that milk is a prime cause of allergies and much more. You will learn that milk can even kill your infant.

Monsanto and Friends' Biotech Blunders and Disasters Continue
Ronnie Cummins
Little Marais, Minnesota

In scientific and public health terms data continues to pile up that significantly increased levels of the human growth hormone factor, IGF-1, in genetically engineered milk and dairy products constitute a serious human health risk for increased breast and colon cancer.

In addition scientific studies have recently been brought to the attention of the World Health Organization that injecting mammals with genetically engineered growth hormones very likely increases their susceptibility to deadly, incurable brain-wasting diseases such as BSE, commonly known as Mad Cow Disease, or its human variant, CJD.

(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:23 - ID#401460)
And we thought Gold had a problem.

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- Standing at the meat case at her local supermarket, Mary Jo
Lyon felt sick. Her distress was not the meat, but the prices.

Pork chops were $2.50 a pound last week; hams were $1.50. Not surprising, unless
you consider that the Fayette, Mo., pig farmer and her husband Ovid had just sold a 615-pound boar for 6 cents a pound and several 250-pound hogs for 11 cents a

``Something is wrong there big time,'' Lyon said ``Somebody is making a killing but I
don't know where.''

You know, economics 101........Supply vs. Demand


(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:32 - ID#105139)
Fidelity Select Gold Charts
Fidelity Select Gold & Precious metals Charts
5 Years, 120 day, 30 day and hourly charts at:

The 120 Day Chart and Overhead Resistance Chart show
The Gold Trend is still UP!

(Sat Jan 16 1999 22:44 - ID#339274)

(Sat Jan 16 1999 23:22 - ID#335190)
Pork Prices @ cannibalistic feeding practices - pigs to be fed back to pigs and cattle.
7 Jan 99 petition filed at FDA

Dockets Management Branch Food and Drug Administration Department of Health and Human Services
Room 1-23, 12420 Parklawn Drive Rockville, Maryland 20857

HUMANE FARMING ASSOCIATION, Post Office Box 3577, San Rafael, CA 94912-8902, et al. Petitioners,
vs. Docket No _______
JANE HENNEY, in her official capacity as
Commissioner Food and Drug Administration
5600 Fishers Lane, Room 14-71 Rockville, MD 20857 Defendants.

Petition Requesting Immediate Action by the Food & Drug Administration to Combat Transmissible Spongiform

The second legal petition demands that the Food and Drug Administration ( FDA ) close serious loopholes in U.S. animal feed regulations which currently allow types of cannibalistic feeding practices known to cause and spread 'mad cow' type diseases
in animals and humans. For instance, current U.S. regulations allow calves to be fed milk replacer containing cattle blood
protein, and pigs to be fed back to pigs and cattle. U.S. sheep infected with scrapie, a 'mad cow' type disease, can be used
for pet and pig feed in the U.S.

In an analogy, the "British BSE-nvCJD" strain of TSE could be carried by pigs without the pigs showing symptoms of infection, yet later if the pigs parts were fed to cows in an animal feed supplement, the cows could become infected with that TSE which has infected and killed humans.

Scientific experts on medical properties of TSE have determined "that the results presented here would strongly favour a decision to stop feeding ruminant-derived products to all animal species" especially domestic animals, poultry and animals raised to be consumed by humans since the poultry or domestic animals put into animal feed supplements could be carriers.

Another scientist has suggested that monitoring CJD and TSE will play a key role in protecting the public from this health threat.

Many were wrong about [BSE], including me. We didn't imagine that it could pass from cows into humans. But now we think it can, and it has the potential to be terrifying.

Perhaps the best analogy is to the AIDS epidemic. Although it's almost certain that TSE doesn't transmit as readily as HIV, it's similar in a number of other ways.

It can remain in the body for long periods without obvious symptoms, and it is fatal. But what I'm thinking about is how we regarded AIDS in the early days, before we really understood it. We underestimated the threat.
Perhaps we should avoid making that mistake again.

The family of 'mad cow' type disease, TSEs, include numerous strains and have different names in different species. The best known strain is British Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy ( BSE ) , dubbed 'mad cow disease,'
which has now spread into the British human population as 'new variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease' or nvCJD.

So far 33 teenagers or young adults are confirmed dead or dying of nvCJD.
Since the disease has a virtually invisible incubation period that might last decades, it won't be known for many years whether the final toll will be in the dozens, hundreds or thousands of human lives.

CJD in humans in the U.S. appears to be often misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's or other types of fatal dementia, and seems much more prevalent than admitted by government agencies.

Given the very long invisible incubation period of this 100% fatal disease, and that fact that it can be spread by infected medical instruments and is almost impossible to kill by heat and disinfection, and the consequences of failing to identify the disease are extremely serious.