USAGOLD Discussion - June 1999

All times are U.S. Mountain Time

Aristotle
(06/01/1999; 00:03:50 MDT - Msg ID: 6963)
Beesting---Ahhhh, yes...Sovereignty! What life is all about!
Great stuff! And here's the thing...no one will show up out of the blue and simply give it to you. However, it is yours for the taking--a frame of mind, attitude, perspective (call it what you like.) A lifestyle. Avoid operating on auto-pilot. Be deliberate and exercise judgement in all that you do.

If a seagull can hatch in this wild Garden among the stars, and be free to navigate the various bounties and trials of life, why can't we also? Methinks the world needs more birds like Jonathan Livingston.

Sovereignty. Take you some. ---Aristotle
something else
(06/01/1999; 01:21:05 MDT - Msg ID: 6964)
Greetings, musings, and questions
Greetings!

This is my first posting. I am prompted to write in order to postulate a very simplistic theory that was prompted by SteveH's 6820 post. But first I want to say how much I love you guys! I have been reading USA Gold's Market Report for some time now, but only recently checked out the forum. The only problem is that my obsession for reading it keeps me up way to late at night!

I would also like to say that I am grateful to find such an abundance of knowledge and insight. All I have heard around me lately is cheerleading for the bull market and denial of the present bubble and its mania. My belief in the value of physical gold tends to garner only bemusement and tolerance for my ignorant beliefs at best. So I tend to keep my opinions to myself. Time will speak for itself in the long run.

So on to my postulation. So far, the focus of the solution to the problem of the repayment of the huge amounts of gold outstanding due to the gold-carry trade seems to have focused on the euro. Perhaps, it is simpler than that. Steve states that an "estimated 14,000 tons of gold that has been involved in the gold-carry trade needs to be paid back. It is impossible to pay it back in gold as most of the Central Bank loans demanded so now it would seem that the financial parties in the gold-carry business need a source of gold to pay back these loans. It appears that only two escape hatches exist for the gold-carry players. Keeping the price of gold down by shorting it on COMEX (this is akin to naked shorting as insufficient gold bullion doesn't appear to exist to cover the 200,000 open interest contracts) or repaying the loans in a medium acceptable to the banks who loaned the gold in the first place."

Try this idea on for size. The BOE announcement to sell reserves is an action that has been acknowledged to drive the price of gold lower. Huge quantities of gold short positions remain outstanding on the market. Sooner or later, the physical metal must be repurchased to make good on the outstanding short positions. With so many institutions worldwide having such a vested interest in the covering of these short positions, what better way to solve the problem then by: a) taking measures to drive down the cost of gold to levels sufficiently low to assure the ability to cover the short positions (and possibly manage to make a tidy profit as well); b) making the physical metal available at those prices to the short holders for the necessary repurchase which in turn enables c) the gold 'borrowers� to return the outstanding gold borrowed to the lenders.

It may be that this idea has been alluded to before in these postings. However, I have not seen it stated explicitly, therefore I bring it before you for your (collective) comment and insight.

I leave with one more burning (for myself anyway!) question.

Why on earth, would one consider bulk sale of gold reserves when gold is trading at 20 year lows? In the life of common people, like myself, we don't usually sell out the family jewels at rock bottom prices unless we are feeling VERY desperate! I would think one would only sell off those jewels when one is completely desperate, and there is NOTHING ELSE OF ANY VALUE LEFT TO SELL!

It is ironic that the purchase of gold bullion by individual investors continues to increase while the price of the investment hits a 20 year low. What's wrong with this picture?
Goldsun
(06/01/1999; 02:06:40 MDT - Msg ID: 6965)
Vatican gold
While information on the Vatican's financial holdings is certainly of interest, I have long been curious as to the existence and financial holdings of analogous organizations in other religions, such as Muslim, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and last but perhaps not least, Parsees and Jains. Information on Parsee participation in the development of Hong Kong would be particularly welcome. Although I have no knowledge of the Vatican's financial affairs, I occasionally find myself wondering if they haven't gotten into some sort of bind which required outside assistance.
Goldsun
Oregon Geezer
(06/01/1999; 02:33:43 MDT - Msg ID: 6966)
Scary Bilderberg agenda stuff
http://www.the-news.net/archives/bilburg29-5.htmYou can also find the site on today's www.drudgereport.com
SteveH
(06/01/1999; 04:37:01 MDT - Msg ID: 6967)
Tossed and turned all night...
August gold now ... what!? I must double check this...yes it is true!

$268.00

something else. Your idea is ideal, problem is the market appears to be divided: physical and paper. To pay back in physical of such a large quantity is not possible or seems not possible. Part of the problem is that we don't see the true physical market. It is hidden from our eyes. That is why Michael said watch the market.

I believe that even two thousand tons of gold can't be found to satisfy needs, except at CB's and they are giving it up anymore, unless they have to (BOE?).
Silver Tongue
(06/01/1999; 05:30:18 MDT - Msg ID: 6968)
Gold
Much is said about countries dumping their gold because they have too. What strikes me is the fact that if England dumps its gold at these bargain basement prices and if the citizenry is lapping up gold at these ridiculously low prices that all England has to do one it has dumped the gold is to confiscate the gold back from the citizens at an even lower price than that at which they were forced to sell the gold in the first place. Is there anything wrong with this logic? I hope that there is.
Goldfly
(06/01/1999; 06:38:14 MDT - Msg ID: 6969)
Cavan Man, Goldsun
Have seen a number of references to Washington's vision, never heard of it being attributed to Lincoln....

When I get more info, I'll pass it on.

GF
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 08:09:45 MDT - Msg ID: 6970)
Saudi Prince Says Iran Has Right To Arm Itself
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/wl/story.html?s=v/nm/19990601/wl/saudi_iran_prince_1.html"All countries follow the same policy..." he said.
Policy is "for the benefit the Gulf region"
USAGOLD
(06/01/1999; 08:17:58 MDT - Msg ID: 6971)
Today Market Report: Some Gut Wrenching Action in the Early Going
MARKET REPORT(6/1/99): Whoever has their foot on gold's neck kept it there this
morning as gold opened at $271.50 on the August contract ran to $277.10 (up $5.60 from
the open) and then promptly plummeted to the $266.30 before recovering to $268.80 --
quite a gut wrenching opening to the week. It all happened so fast at the open, that most of
the investment world didn't even know it happened -- like a Phantom -- but if the MRCI
report is correct, and it usually is, the open, high and low are there for all to see. If Reuters
is to be believed, the latest short attack has originated with the mining companies who are
running ahead of the Bank of England, who in turn is running ahead of the European
central banks (all of which have said categorically they have no intention of selling their
gold), who in turn are running ahead of the International Monetary Fund (which has yet to
make an official declaration on gold, but the smart money is betting they won't be selling),
and finally, ahead of the public which is not selling at all but buying -- at record levels.
With all the running one would think that the gold market was really the seemingly chaotic
Bolder Boulder (won by an Ethiopian not a London gold trader), rather than the staid and
gentlemanly proposition it is so fond of advancing as its modus operandi. Ah...the vagaries
and nuances of the free, unbiased and responsible British press. It is obvious that
something is going on in the gold market -- some great forces pulling underneath the
surface, like a riptide, and some equally strong forces looking for opportunities to cover
previous short positions. It appears we have come to the volatile stage in market action.
Keep your ear to the rail. Anything could happen.

Meanwhile the eyes of the currency world were on the euro which suffered a disastrous end
to last week with calls from all corners of Europe that something be done to prop up the
new-born, but ailing, reserve currency. European Central Bank officials talked of
interventions and abandoning their policy of benign neglect. The market is reacting half
heartedly to all the politics in the early going. Traders are waiting to see if something more
than rhetoric will emerge from all the bustle on the continent.

The featured article in this month's News & Views centers on government finance in an
article entitled "The Financial State of the Union." I'm sure it contains many
surprises for our readers. There is a great deal of difference between what our government
leaders are telling us and the reality with respect to the government's books. This issue is
one or our best and most informative. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call Marie at
1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly newsletter
-- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 08:30:42 MDT - Msg ID: 6972)
Saudi banks unite to create Arab giant
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990530/3.htmlThe merged bank, to be called SAMBA, would be able to compete more effectively "especially in light of the restructuring that is currently taking place in the regional economies..."
USAGOLD
(06/01/1999; 08:41:53 MDT - Msg ID: 6973)
Steve H....
I wanted to mention that the Washington vision reminded me that Washington warned in his Farewell Address that we should avoid foreign entanglements especially in Europe (if I remember right). The vision may have had a profound impact on his foreign policy. At the very least, there were plenty of philosophical consistencies between his vision and foreign policy. Thanks for the interesting post which I had not seen before. Do we know when that account was written and whether or not it's part of Washington's official papers?
USAGOLD
(06/01/1999; 08:46:23 MDT - Msg ID: 6974)
Goldfly...
My apologies, o bard of bards. The question below should have been directed to you.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 08:57:27 MDT - Msg ID: 6975)
ANALYSIS-Sustained low prices may force gold mine cuts
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990601/gw.htmlPuny supply at risk of becoming smaller.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 09:02:16 MDT - Msg ID: 6976)
FOCUS-European markets await U.S. data, gold dives
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990601/jb.htmlStocks, bonds, gold, and the NAPM
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 09:12:54 MDT - Msg ID: 6977)
McDonough says strong U.S. dollar in U.S. interest
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990601/ut.htmlHow soon until they employ a parrot to deliver this same old routine? Why so much official jawboning? Seems like shades of 1971... Stuff must be about to hit the fan.
Goldfly
(06/01/1999; 09:17:19 MDT - Msg ID: 6978)
USAGOLD

As I was telling Goldsun and The Man from Cavan: what you see is pretty much all I know. I am trying to get some documentation whether the item was published in the National Tribune prior to the Civil War.

While the publication wouldn't prove that it came from Gen. Washington, I think it would lend more credence to the possibility since it seems to predict the War Between the States and it's outcome.

I doubt very much that it belongs with Washington's papers, as it would probably get much more airplay (not mainstream airplay, just more.)

Anyway if I find out anything more, I'll post it.

GF
Technician
(06/01/1999; 09:51:02 MDT - Msg ID: 6979)
Keep your powder dry
www.homestead.com/purifoy/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlI have been a lurker for years on Gold Forum. My peak experience in life may have been selling part of my gold position at $800. That market served me well and I have waited 20 years for another. We are near but a final purge is necessary. Stick with dollar averaging coins until a clear reversal is signaled.

I am a high school math teacher and and retired AIR Force. I have a hobby of creating software for commodity analysis which is much inspired from Wilder. Seems to work pretty good. I have no commercial interests at all but I do have a personal website, www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.html. It is only for public perusal, fun and exchange of ideas. Used homestead and it was really easy to create it and for free!!! Presently, everthing except sugar looks like a short. What, is this some kind of deflational collapse with the $ ever higher?

One story to tell. I am married to a Russian and have a Russian mother-in-law. I proudly showed her my collection of gold maples, kruggers, pandas, etc. when she cut me off with the remark. "Gypsies sell those things...best bite one next time you buy." I was taken back by her perspective and realized that gold is different things to different people. Few living Russians have had nor do any have the opportunity to own gold. Their miserable condition may be part of that lost freedom.








Maybe today is the start of the purge that will lead us to a key reversal bottom. Only in last year have I regained my interest in gold. Now I wait very patiently for the signal which will be fast and hard and very visible to those who have been patient.

One of the high points in my life was selling some of my gold position at $800 (wish I had sold all of it;) The market was very good to me those 20 years ago and I feel the juices once more that have lain dormant for two decades.

Read the forums and understand the undercurrents and patiently wait.

Thanks for all those who visited my little home made web site. It was real easy with Homestead and for free. Please share your ideas with me on the technical aspects of the markets. So many have came but I feel as if i am talking to a wall. Let's make it a fun place, bring ideas!!!




TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 09:52:54 MDT - Msg ID: 6980)
Robust NAPM seen pushing Fed closer to rate hike
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990601/w7.htmlBearish for Bonds because the Fed may raise rates. Bearish for Stocks, which are fearful of higher cost of borrowing money. Hmmmmm, let's see now... Got GOLD?
Technician
(06/01/1999; 09:55:15 MDT - Msg ID: 6981)
Sloppy posting:(
My last post, somehow, came out as two prepared posting instead of one I wanted. If a little confussing, that is what happen. Be more careful next time.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 10:11:40 MDT - Msg ID: 6982)
Indonesia: Suharto goes off the money
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_357000/357979.stmThe Central Bank in Indonesia has dumped the portrait of former President Suharto on its largest bank note.

The new 50,000 rupiah bank note (worth around six dollars)will now bear the portrait of the composer of their national anthem.

Wow! 50,000 ledger units of theirs equals 6 ledger units of ours. If you had only 120 American dollars, you'd be a rupiah-millionaire. Numbers mean nothing. It's all about purchasing power, folks.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 10:20:59 MDT - Msg ID: 6983)
World Trade Wars
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_342000/342821.stmThe world is at war again - over trade. Governments and producers squabble over beef, bananas, steel and other goods. Once again some countries try to 'protect' their faltering industries behind trade barriers.
BBC News Online takes a look at the dangers facing the world economy with a compendium of links at this site.

You know, if YOUR money is not as acceptible as MY money or THEIR money, how on earth will we ever do business? It is all about GOLD, but the leaders won't face the music.

TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 10:30:04 MDT - Msg ID: 6984)
Rate hike for eurozone possible (Al says, "I don't THINK so, Tim.")
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/the_launch_of_emu/euro_latest/newsid_357000/357966.stmAlthough it was mentioned by a senior Bundesbank official that an intrest rate rise could be used to strengthen investors' confidence, given the structure of the euro it is easily argued that "the idea that the exchange rate is a real problem for ECB policymakers is just way outside any reasonable analysis".
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 12:18:22 MDT - Msg ID: 6985)
Daytraders Fret When Margin Comes Calling
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/marketfeatures/751942.htmlIn the end, the piper must be paid.
Cavan Man
(06/01/1999; 12:24:37 MDT - Msg ID: 6986)
Peter Asher
I cannot comment on the EU. I do not have the knowledge to give an opinion. Having travelled a bit internationally and having reached the conclusion from my travels abroad that "humanity" shares many common threads, I want to assume the EU has similar problems across the board.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 12:42:53 MDT - Msg ID: 6987)
Abhorring a News Vacuum, Market Waits in Vain for Selling Climax
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/marketfeatures/751423.htmlThe cat is out of the bag. Now that you know what the run-of-the-mill reporter DOESN'T know, feel free to dismiss their stories, and think for yourself.

But of course, I try to give you the stories that are not run-of-the-mill, so stay tuned!
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 12:52:22 MDT - Msg ID: 6988)
OIL:Iraq finds chemical weapons in UNSCOM office. [What the ??]
United Nations--Jun 1--1246 ET--The United Nations Security Council is
currently in an emergency consultation called by Russia after Iraq found
chemical weapons in the Baghdad offices of UNSCOM, the UN group charged
with monitoring Iraq's disarmament progress, a diplomat who spoke under
conditions of anonymity, explained. However, Chief UN Weapons Inspector
Richard Butler, as he was entering the meeting, said: "Experts know of
nothing alarming." By Carola Hoyos

London--Jun 1--0037 ET--All members of OPEC favor extending the group's
agreement made in March to cut its collective oil output by over 1.7
million barrels per day to support oil prices, a senior official at the
Iranian oil ministry said today. By Alex Lawler

Kuwait--Jun 1--0040 ET--Current oil prices are "satisfactory" but should
improve in the second half of the year, according to Kuwait's Oil Minister
Sheikh Saud al-Nasser al-Sabah. By Agence France-Presse

Milan--Jun 1--0121 ET--Erg, an Italian oil refiner and gas station
operator, said it will reduce production at its oil refinery ISAB di
Priolo in Sicily by about 25% and will not sell refined oil on the spot
market this month. By Sharifa Pastori

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 13:33:57 MDT - Msg ID: 6989)
NY Precious Metals Review: Gold hits 20-yr low
By Darcy Keith, Bridge News
New York--Jun 1--COMEX Aug gold futures settled down $2.5 at $269.5
after hitting a fresh contract low of $267.0 on Australian producer hedge
selling overnight. Gold also hit a fresh 20-year low on nearby continuous
monthly charts. Jly silver traded in the opposite direction today,
settling up 9.0c at $4.985 on bank and fund buying. Silver got a boost
today from a newswire report indicating that Mexican producer Penoles
plans to cut its silver and lead exports by 10% this year from 1998
levels, traders said.

The Australian producer hedge selling overnight in gold was spurred by
a weaker Australian dollar versus the greenback. The Australian dollar hit
1 1/2-month lows against the US currency today amid widespread selling by
US banks.
One large US bank and one large German bank were said to be
particularly heavy sellers today. The triggering of some sell stops may
have also helped to accelerate the move.

The Australian producer selling overnight spurred further weakness in
the European spot market, where volumes were thin following the 3-day
holiday weekend. Some of the thin conditions may have contributed to the
sharp sell-off gold saw today, traders said.

Gold remains the victim of overwhelmingly bearish sentiment, which was
intensified last month with news that the UK Treasury plans to sell off
more than half its gold reserves starting on Jly 6.
Some players have become optimistic for gold as spot prices resisted
to sink sharply below $270 over the past several days, but the break of
that level has brought in further disappointed selling.
"It's hard to find anyone positive on gold right now," said Leonard
Kaplan, chief bullion dealer of LFG Bullion Services. "The trade and
speculators are going to remain on the bear side of the market until it
penetrates at least one or two resistance points on the upside." He said
$270.75-271 for cash prices should provide some resistance, although more
serious resistance won't be seen until $275-280.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 13:39:20 MDT - Msg ID: 6990)
News From the Tower: U.S. Treasuries crushed at futures close
Treasuries experience their worst sell-off since May 14.
A dollar can be no better than its bond. Yikes!
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 13:48:12 MDT - Msg ID: 6991)
Markets tumble; dollar slips; Bonds crumble on strong NAPM
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19990601/news/current/bonds.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo"In this kind of market, he said, value isn't important. Direction is what matters..."

But in the end, value will win the day, my friend. Gold.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 14:20:55 MDT - Msg ID: 6992)
Tea leaves
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990601/8l.htmlMost IMM currency futures ended higher as the prospect for higher U.S. interest rates sparked a heavy selloff in both U.S. T-bonds and stocks, which in turn dampened demand for dollars.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 14:30:57 MDT - Msg ID: 6993)
What? We worry?--A commentator's fun reminder that Y2K hasn't gone away.
http://www.l-e-o.com/news/0528chitwood.htmA mixed bag of advice and smiles.
TownCrier
(06/01/1999; 16:02:23 MDT - Msg ID: 6994)
What Drives the Price of Gold?
http://www.newaus.com.au/econ121gold.htmlAlthough dated this week, I seem to recall this same essay from weeks ago...some sorta weird deja vu, maybe. Final analysis, it is better to hold gold "too soon" than to try to get it "too late."

Yeah, kinda like toilet paper. Who waits until AFTER they need it to make a trip to the store? Some things you just gotta have in advance, ya know??
Golden Truth
(06/01/1999; 16:09:57 MDT - Msg ID: 6995)
Response to Something else and Thuggery?
http.www.sighting.com/politics2/motive.htmHope this somewhat answers your thoughts.I,amsure my answers aren't 100% correct but i believe they're close. Anyone else please feel free to respond. (b)They are the ones (shorters)who are making Physical GOLD available at prices for the necessary repurchase to them selves the (short holders). Kind of like a dog chasing his own tail,or a circle that keeps getting smaller.(Implosion?) They can't cover 14,000m.t(metrictonnes), even the B.O.E sale is only 450-480m.t. Thats not even enough to cover the 200,000 o.i contracts which equals 622.08m.t. I believe F.O.A when he says they(B.O.E) sold to cover their currency, being that the "Pound" is tied to the U.S dollar. (c) They can never return the GOLD to the C.B no matter how low the price goes. Would you give up your GOLD @$150/oz to cover what you now know to be someone else's short selling? NOT ME or any other C.B's .This is where the fireworks have started! This is also why they(shorters) will have to pay back the C.B's with a proxy for GOLD with the "EURO" since it represents GOLD backing! (a) Sorry to address (a) lastly but i don't want to forget it. Yes they might make some profit in shorting GOLD but only until it implodes, which is soon! Lastly i have my own idea i've been kicking around alot! It came to me in part by what "ANOTHER" has said in the past that the Goverments will do quote "WHAT EVER IS NECESSARY TO PULL THE REAL MONEY BACK IN" unquote. The TREPCA mining complex just keeps coming back to haunt me! Like most WARS, the KOSOVA war is about money-BIG MONEY. It has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing,genocide,or atrocities. It's all about money. FOLLOW THE MONEY. Its a bold power grab to control the mining complex in KOSOVO. Next make "slobo" a criminal, already done? Then everything is wide open in the publics eye for the Goverments to sieze any and all assets of a criminal! under such a premise? Besides who is going to pay for Kosovo to be rebuilt? and the massive amounts of money needed to pay for the resettlement of the Poor Poor Refuges. Even though we've killed hundreds of you with our Smart bombs? oh must just be dumb targets for that to have happened. Not to mention thousands of people dying from exposure to the elements, so sorry once again but i've got a fat juicy steak scarf down and 14,000m.t of GOLD to pull back in. Some one once mentioned on this forum that they hope the u.s gov, won't resort to "thuggery" I think it was Aristotle. Well guess what we live in the real World where real people are dying, including "INOCCENT" people in Yugoslavia. How many soldiers have really died? So in my eyes thuggery it is! The mines are worth TRILLIONS of dollars. Even if the u.s gov. Spent 100 billion dollars and the mine was only worth ONE TRILLION it only cost 10% to wage this WAR and to steal the mines. Believe me they will take the mine if Yugoslavia falls! What they are doing is out right pure unadulterated EVIL! This is is where they can get 14,000m.t of GOLD and for very cheap labour costs also and it will take only a couple of years to get it. The u.s gov knows this and is going to hang in there tooth and nail until it does. I also wonder if others in the GOLD shorting business know this also so they are told to just keep shorting away,and we will come to your rescue, besides your doing us a favour in under mining the EURO. We need to get rid of them dam europeans and that pesky EURO, you know how much we HATE competition especially against our reserve currency. The real tricky part though is preventing WWIII. Something that was alluded to in the letter called "THE STING" was the hope that a World War could be avoided when the u.s dollar was unreserved. I wonder if "BORIS YELSTIN" ever got a copy of the "STING" that Russia had been given a routine castration. I bet that would put some pressure on the powers that be to get the Hell out of Europe. If not nostradamus's(sp) prediction about the "KING OF TERROR FALLING FROM THE SKY" in July 1999 doesn't seem all that far away anymore. Well got to run i have to e-mail somebody? over in RUSSIA. thanks Golden Truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CoBra(too)
(06/01/1999; 16:10:30 MDT - Msg ID: 6996)
Bul-lion
Comex and OTC gold shorts reaching proportions of no return - Mike Coulson of Paribas or Brett Kebble (JCI) openly quoting alledged short positions up to 14.000 tons of AU- in the main stream media.
The lenders/leasers of gold will have a lot of explaining to do to their constituents, as to the whereabouts of their physical reserve asset, since there simply is no way to get the bullion back to the vaults. It simply is not available, not at any price, however low it will become depressed in this kind of quantity!
The physical market is booming-supply deficits can't be saturated from new mine production since years and are growing disproportional- as demand is going through the roof and the PoG remaining at these levels or heading lower still, will eventually and dramatically curb production in terms of total production costs, further excesserbating the problem of unavailability.
The equation of equilibrium in terms of supply/demand comes to mind, even if admitting to a split gold market, i.e. paper gold vs physical, the gold lenders/leasers will wake up to the fact that their physical, while maybe still in their vaults, is forfeited and effectively sold - while new production, in part is also forfeited by forwards, and potential production curbed by price. The real and total production costs, including capital costs, amortization and reclamation are close to today's gold price level and a lot of producers are eating out of their hedge book already. Aside from ongoing depreciations of the producers currency, there is not much left to alleviate the strain on margins.
The super bowl finals between the young team of fiat (bulls) vs the legendary quarterbacks of bul(lion), while being (un)-officially staked, will once more see the bul-lions rewarded with the true golden trophy.
Golden Truth
(06/01/1999; 16:26:26 MDT - Msg ID: 6997)
U.R.L correction
http://www.sightings.com/politics2/motive.htmOPS sorry i left out one letter. Also i wanted to add to my last post about the fact the the British Army seem awefully dam hungary to invade Kosovo. Maybe i,am reading this all wrong they aren't going for the GOLD after all. Its the poor muslem pheasants they LOVE so dearly and that they can't wait to send their soldiers in to DIE for silly me. Also why is the the U.S.A so friendly with the KLA a know terrorist group all i here is how commited the US is against terrorism. I guess this is somewhat of an Oxy Moron ?????????? GO figure i know i have.
CoBra(too)
(06/01/1999; 16:41:13 MDT - Msg ID: 6998)
@at golden Truth....
Have not seen your message before posting mine. 14.000 tons of AU shorts seem to become mainstraem knowledge - though not the ramnifications of this number. Pls forgive me for posting similar, if coincidently,ideas.
I loved the way your Brits seem "hung(a)ry" to deploy ground troops to propbably help the 300.000 ethnic Hungarians out of Northern Serbia? No pun intended!
Golden Truth
(06/01/1999; 17:19:49 MDT - Msg ID: 6999)
Spelling
Hello CoBra, I knew somebody would see a spelling mistake or to but i,am a beginner typist and subscribe to the "Hunt and Peck" method. So it takes me a reeeaaalllyyy long time to type out my thoughts. There for my spelling is inversely proportional to the speed at which i type, so sorry but i was in a hurry.That aside what do you think of my scenario about invading Kosovo for the GOLD mine? I think your post was perfect timing, and not what so ever an intrusion of mine i think its just that more people are finding out about the truth and are now going to start questioning what is going on? Your post is cold hard evidence of that fact!!! We should be aware of the fact that people do KILL other people for Money, the question is who much more for the goverments and GOLD.I really question the MOTIVE for an impending invasion into Kosovo by the HUNGRY Brits also maybe camouflaged as the L.B.M.A?
CoBra(too)
(06/01/1999; 17:49:04 MDT - Msg ID: 7000)
@Golden Truth
Thank you for your immediate response, which I can't reciprocate right away in every facet, sincee I can't verify the alledged multi-billion mining concern in Kosovo.
It is 1.30 a.m. in my part of the world, though I don't think this ongoing bombing (back to stone age as NATO quotes) over Kosovo is for any economic benefit- no - it is alledgedly the first war in history for humanitarian reasons!?!
I'll try to express my thoughts more clearly tomorrow-regards -CoBra(too)
Technician
(06/01/1999; 19:00:10 MDT - Msg ID: 7001)
Gold refuses to take a downdraft!
www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlI do not wish to create fantasies from clouds or reading the future in tea leaves but todays action in gold piques the mind. Why the close on the high? Lot's of short interest but not so much downward action. The stuff is greatly oversold and I suspect the shorts are in for, at least the short term, a lot of trouble. Don't know so much about western conspiracies in the Balkans, Nato is not that smart but I can read charts. Lot's of volume on this downdraft. Where is the "meat"
jinx44
(06/01/1999; 19:20:41 MDT - Msg ID: 7002)
CoBra(too) and the complex
From what I've read about the natural resources in Kosovo, there is every reason for a criminal group to be bombing the sh*t out of FRY. If you look up the Stari Trg mining area and the Trepka mining complex, you will note that this huge mineral wealth has attracted thugs from way back to Roman times. The Germans occupied this area to make U-Boat batteries and mine gold. The area still produces much of the worlds submarine batteries. I read recently that a greek mining consortium has signed a 3 year deal to mine gold, silver, cadmium and lead. The deal was worth $1.5Trillion I think. But NATO is there for the children. I wonder how much soap you can render out of a childs body? Maybe there is money to be made here!! Besides, the third way crowd doesn't need these useless eaters anyway.
Gandalf the White
(06/01/1999; 19:25:02 MDT - Msg ID: 7003)
Looking at MY crystal ball !
Now "no one" should go out and expend the farm on my observation of the clearing clouds within my crystal ball, BUT, the levels of todays drop at the opening and the recovery to close at the highs in the physical and major stocks tells me that we are going to see real fireworks tomorrow !! --- The chartists are saying not to think about it, JUST BUY. --- But the "Physical" shorts will have their way until they run out of everything that they can throw at Spot the dog and the Aug contract. Twil be a great show tomorrow. To protect the crystal ball, I shall now cover it with the velvet cloak and not look again until the close of COMEX. Later all.
<;-)
Gandalf the White
(06/01/1999; 19:27:58 MDT - Msg ID: 7004)
Clarification !!
When one speaks of stocks, ONLY PM stocks are considered, AND NOT those high flying ".com" or DOW thingies !!!
<;-)
Technician
(06/01/1999; 19:32:07 MDT - Msg ID: 7005)
bad link
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlSorry, bad link. If you wish to visit my humble home page try this one!
Cavan Man
(06/01/1999; 19:33:50 MDT - Msg ID: 7006)
Sir Gandalf
Remember the old fortune cookie proverb: "Those that live by crystal ball often end up eating glass" (hope you're right)
Tomcat
(06/01/1999; 19:55:43 MDT - Msg ID: 7007)
Technician

Found your last post interesting. Could you tell us what numbers and trends you look at, and explain how you use this data to draw your conclusions. Please note that I am not questioning your conclusions, but after visiting your homemade site I became curious.
Peter Asher
(06/01/1999; 20:18:01 MDT - Msg ID: 7008)
Hello ! Congress???
We had Senator Ron Wydon at our monthly chamber of commerce meeting today. Small group, maybe 60 people. He said some intriguing things during his talk regarding the political process and current issues, but I'm going to save that data for another post. Since the 'fur is flying' a bit around our primary subject tonight, I'll cut to the chase.

After the meeting, I managed to get in contact, and while shaking his hand and introducing myself, I asked him if he had any awareness or activity regarding the selling of IMF gold, 15% of which belonged to The USA. He said "I don't know anything about this" !!.
Peter Asher
(06/01/1999; 20:26:41 MDT - Msg ID: 7009)
You tell me
Down another dollar tonight , Unbelievable!!

It seems that gold has gone from being systematicaly driven down, to a genuine selling panic. One having no more rational regarding fundementals than the internet stocks do on the up side.

The one difference, is that downside bubbles have real physical limitations.
SteveH
(06/01/1999; 20:56:18 MDT - Msg ID: 7010)
Most direct statements to date...
I thought FOA's word worthy of one more post tonight. Note there is no mincing of words here. Most interesting barometer of imminent change, eh?

FOA (5/31/99; 21:10:17MDT - Msg ID:6943) Comment canamami (5/27/99;
14:44:45MDT - Msg ID:6800) FOA, Is it your position that the BIS will
not intervene to protect the POG at $280, or any level, given the
existence of the Euro? How does this theory jibe with the Euro's
declining value in relation to the $US? When did you arrive at the
conclusion that the BIS will not, or no longer, ensure the POG stays
above $280.00?

I look forward to your return, to hear your contributions to the
discussion. Thank You, canamami.

Canamami, They gain more leverage against the dollar with each new gold
short written. I believe they decided to allow the market to "implode"
when it became apparent that the US was going to encourage gold. This
political decision came about around the time that Mr. R. quit. As I
said earlier, they now hold a sword over the market that everyone should
be aware of. It could fall at any moment and end any further purchases
of gold at today's values.

I think the $280 price was based on an old formula they used long ago.
I'll offer it later when I have more time. Also note that the Euro was
never to rise against the dollar until the dollar fell from it's own
weight. The Euro was to become the "fallback" reserve currency that
received the flight from a failing IMF / dollar system. The BIS / ECB
was very surprise that it opened as strong as it did. Many who criticize
the ECB for not supporting it are the same ones who object to the "dirty
float" and "rigged" dollar. Yet, here the ECB is trying to offer a fair,
self evaluating currency and the speculators are crying for
"intervention"! No doubt the same ones that currently "intervene" in the
paper gold markets to save their skins. We shall see. FOA



FOA (5/31/99; 20:47:00MDT - Msg ID:6942) Reply tlc (5/27/99; 14:42:54MDT
- Msg ID:6798) paper gold contracts I am puzzled by the statement that
there is an excess of paper gold "shorts" in the market. It is my
opinion that you cannot just open a "short" position without an
offsetting "long" position being created. Can anyone shed some light on
this for me?

tlc, Hello, usually, the short side of a contract must (theoretically)
supply real gold to complete the transaction. The long side must supply
currency to complete. True, every position offsets. The problem arises
from shorts not being able to supply gold because they don't have it.
It's not that there are excess "shorts", rather no excess gold. does
this help? FOA

FOA (5/31/99; 20:39:01MDT - Msg ID:6938) Comment -------------Cassius
(05/27/99; 12:09:10MDT - Msg ID:6795) FOA's msgs 6766 and 6783
-----Also, could you please expound on your statement (msg #67660)"One
can also see why the US will encourage a higher "world" price for gold,
even as it's native market is destroyed!" This isn't intuitively clear
to me why the US would do so. Thanks for your shared insight.
Cassius----

Hello Cassius, I hope some of the recent posts added to your other
stated considerations. As for the US anticipated actions? It's the only
play available to them! They cannot sell their gold in quantity (see my
other posts) and the current shorting is based on the "equity" of the
local bullion traders, not the future supply of gold! That equity is at
"major" risk as I write. The dollar "will" be devalued with a rising
world gold price and there is nothing the US political factions can do
to stop it. As I said before, they will make as much political hay out
of an inevitable situation as possible. In that light they may close the
paper gold markets as they begin to fail from non delivery (a future
event). Then begin a series of verbal prouncements about "how much gold
the US has" and "how much backing it provides for the dollar". Remember,
gold is no longer the threat, the Euro is! Thanks FOA



FOA (5/31/99; 20:23:16MDT - Msg ID:6937) (No Subject)
-------------USAGOLD (5/27/99; 9:29:58MDT - Msg ID:6787) Today's Gold
Market Report: Central Banks Cannot Print Gold---------

Fine report USAGOLD! We should all read this again and save it!

FOA (5/31/99; 20:17:39MDT - Msg ID:6936) Comment ---------canamami
(5/27/99; 6:03:41MDT - Msg ID:6781) Brief Musings I only have time for a
couple of sentences. 1. The POG is not completely unimportant, even for
hardcore physical gold buffs. Would one still feel the same about gold
if it were valued at $10.00 per ounce, to use an extreme example? 2. The
recent and continued price slide appears to me outside of the realm of
the hypotheses of FOA/Another and must subject those hypotheses to
further examination, to any person who seeks objective verification of
hypotheses. Obviously, the BIS is not intervening to hold the POG at
$280.00. The POG has dropped more than a $5 to $6 fluctuation from about
$283. Our friends are learned, and I eagerly look forward to their input
on this, IMHO and respectful opinion, unpredicted weakness. Thank You,
canamami.

Hello canamami, I know you posted again about this, but I wanted to
comment. If you have kept up with the massive writing here, I hope you
were able to grasp some of the other fine points made by all. In
addition I add: The range to purchase gold looks to be the same. Yes, it
has dropped further (another 10 lower?), but as the shorts attempt to
lower it, the physical market will, no doubt "discredit the paper
market" through a large disparity in prices. Soon, one may not be able
to purchase bullion as the entire system begins to break down. At the
point of breakdown, physical may not be available, except at much higher
prices. The "risk" is becoming obvious and clear, worldwide! We shall
see. Thanks, FOA



FOA (5/31/99; 20:02:57MDT - Msg ID:6935) Comment ---------------The
Flying Scotsman (5/27/99; 4:08:42MDT - Msg
ID:6779)Farfel.............Gold Price G'Day, Weel, it lokks like the
Gold price is going down like a "pork chop in a synagogue". This current
compression of the gold price, how long can it last ? If as FOA infers
that there are now two "Gold Camps", which one has the deepest pockets ?
The "other" markets, well they appear to be in and out like a fiddler's
elbow. Aye---------------

Hello and welcome Scotsman! Your question of "which one has the deepest
pockets ? Well it used to be that the one with the most gold made the
rules and maybe it still does. Currently, it's the geopolitical group
with the "world reserve currency" that holds the reins. However, this
new open market for gold is about to award that title to a new entity.
You see, it's not just "how deep the pockets are", but rather "what
supports them that counts".

FOA (5/31/99; 19:38:51MDT - Msg ID:6934) Comment -------beesting
(05/25/99; 22:57:14MDT - Msg ID:6742) Gold seen well supported near
lows. http://www.barney.co.za/reuters/may99/gold25.htm Flemings global
mining group said in a report: The unique liquidity provided by Central
Bank lending to the Gold market had prevented severe lease rate spikes,
allowing the market to be played for the short side for extended
periods.((3long years)). While it was hard to say when this dynamic
would change, for now and while there was negative sentiment,"this
structure creates an Achilles heel which invites attack,"Fleming said.
Click above URL for more.------------------

Hello beesting, Boy, "unique" is the right word! If I wanted to expand a
market, the best way to do it is to offer almost "zero" rates to finance
it, right? Then, after some 10,000 to 15,000 tonnes of gold were leased
around, I would control the equity of every player by controlling the
lending interest rates. The above "lease rate spikes" can easily be
created by withholding supply through open bidding for gold! It's a
political sword that the BIS now holds over the paper shorts. All the
market can do now is keep creating short paper by using "company equity"
instead of gold. In time, the entire paper gold market drowns in
"fictional" sales and becomes completely discredited as a true physical
supply source. What a mess for them! What a success for real gold!
thanks FOA



FOA (5/31/99; 19:18:33MDT - Msg ID:6933) Comment ----------USAGOLD
(05/25/99; 20:37:01MDT - Msg ID:6735) Stever.......and All.....

"For those who say this has been an exceedingly long and dark period for
gold, I would counsel that these cycles play out over many years period
of time. The stock bear market that started on a constant dollar scale
in 1965 did not come back to the level from which it first descended
until 1982-83. Similarly, the stock market high of 1929 was not reached
again until 1942. Bear markets can be long and merciless but always
darkest before the dawn. Gold's overdue, Steve, but I still wouldn't go
out and load up future's contracts or call options."------

Michael, A very nice post. I read it all. Your last item should give
people an idea of how long term these things can be. We must all
remember that the perspective that most analysts write from (the last
Barrons article?) is only using the action of gold from 1975+/-! They do
not allow the "history of paper currencies" to influence their thinking.
The US dollar is only some 30+/- years old when one considers how long
it has been off a gold standard. During that time it has created more
debt than has ever existed during the use of "any" form of money! Truly,
a failure of this modern paper would turn the current analysts of gold
on it's head and make the wait seem like only a moment in time. We will
see it happen and chronicle the results on this forum. thanks for
providing it, FOA

FOA (5/31/99; 18:57:01MDT - Msg ID:6931) Reply Cavan Man (05/25/99;
10:39:10MDT - Msg ID:6719) FOA & Another I am new to the Forum and the
subject near and dear. With the help of this Forum I am learning a great
deal. Many times in reading your posts I am uncertain as to the meaning.
Could you recommend a short reading list for my continued enlightenment
and edification? Many thanks!

Hello Cavan Man, It has taken me a lifetime to grasp how money is used
among nations. Hopefully, with the internet it will require only 1/4 a
lifetime for you. However long it takes, I can assure you it is an
interesting and useful endeavor. Sorry, I know of no short list? thanks
for reading and discussing

FOA (5/31/99; 18:43:56MDT - Msg ID:6930) Comment! -------TownCrier
(5/25/99; 9:30:58MDT - Msg ID:6717)---- Eddie Georte: British Gold Sale
"A Very Sensible Portfolio Decision"
http://finance.uk.yahoo.com/news/19990525/businessday/busstory142283.htm
l "He (Eddie George) dismissed accusations that the policy was a device
to prop up the ailing euroas 'conspiracy theory gone to extreme'.

Towncrier asks: "What happened to the days when central bank reserves
existed to defend one's currencies, not garner the best
returns?"-------------------

TownCrier, The above is only part of your post, but still an important
part. Most of the public discussion concerning the BOE gold sales
revolves around the obvious. Such as "they sold gold to bring reserves
in line to join the Euro" or "they leased gold earlier and now this move
is just to cover those leases gone bad" or it was "open manipulation
because they announced it first in order to push down the gold price".

My point all along was that they did none of the above. Your statement,
TC, is the closest to the truth. Let me explain:

If they (BOE) were selling gold as a direct course to join the Euro,
they would have handled it exactly in the same manner as the Dutch and
other EMU nations did. Sell the gold quietly and direct it towards
contract completion. This was done quietly to bring the best trade and
to deliver the gold into "private EMU friendly" hands. All of the pre
EMU deals were done in this fashion and the BOE would have done the same
"IF" the purpose was for "reserve balance" prior to Euro application.

It is true that they are active in the gold leasing market. No one would
expect anything less when the members of the LBMA are so very close to
the BOE. I believe one of the members is the very agent for the
government! (Someone here should be able to help confirm this for the
group). However, this new sale of gold could never be used to "square
the books" for gold already leased because the old leased contracts were
done at a much higher price. The "auction" would have to be concluded at
a much higher price than today for the numbers to match. A rare event,
indeed!

The open announcement of sales did move the dollar price of gold, but
that was not the purpose of this "verbal action". They had no choice but
to announce, because they (BOE) were about to sell "unencumbered"
physical vault gold to LBMA members. It was an obvious public statement
to show that the LBMA had a "line" on "freed up real gold" to satisfy "a
pressing situation"! Someone in the world community needed to know that
this "future" gold was available with no way to reverse the sale. A
public statement does just that! The credibility of the BOE to perform
was put on the line. Otherwise, the sale would have been held quietly
and privately, over time, just as the EMU sales were.

Back to your item, TC, "What happened to the days when central bank
reserves existed to defend one's currencies, not garner the best
returns?". Well you have hit the nail exactly upon the head. This BOE
gold "IS" currency reserves and it was being used to defend the
currency. Only, it was not the pound that was being defended, it was the
dollar! As USAGOLD once said, some nations grow weary of using their
reserves to back a foreign reserve currency, so to do the british grow
tired. Because they were part of the IMF / dollar faction (thanks again
Steve #6820), England used the services of the LBMA and the gold
reserves of the BOE to help strengthen the dollar. They expanded the
gold supply (and world ownership) by selling various paper gold
securities. They did this because the dollar is "their" reserve currency
also, it mainly backs the pound! Today, we come to a point where a major
reserve currency change threatens every dollar holding nation, and
London is in danger of becoming the "odd man of Europe" during this
time. With the BIS having succeeded in leveraging the dollar into the
brink of "implosion" Briton must make a dash for the EMU, even if the
resulting "dollar slaughter" will destroy their LBMA through an
exploding physical gold price. This, my friends, is what the BOE gold
sale is all about. They are clearly saving a small portion of their
bullion bank empire prior to EMU. The sale has nothing to do with
"balancing reserves" to meet ECB criteria.

Many words to make a small point. On to other comments. FOA




Technician
(06/01/1999; 20:56:19 MDT - Msg ID: 7011)
Why a bottom?
I have been asked by the forum why I think interim lows are in. Honestly, my indicators do not indicate a buy only an oversold situation. But commodities can become more over sold. My opinion is simply a conclusion of contrary opinion and my oversold indicator. Good for buying coins and mining stock but not futures. I will make that call when I see it;)
Golden Truth
(06/01/1999; 21:18:44 MDT - Msg ID: 7012)
Who is buying the Gold???
I know there has been some one here always asking who is buying all the Gold? I believe its the U.S.America, thats right. Due to fear of losing control of the Gold market and then no longer being able to make deals. They are letting the shorts continue to keep this ball rolling for there accumulation program,you can't really believe they don't know what is happening or that they are not accumulating. They know they have 15 Trillion in i.o.u's out and 6 Trillion in federal debt. If one billion oz's of Gold are amassed at an average cost of $320/oz and the price is upped to $3000/oz. The Goverment now has 3 Trillion in assets to back up their debt.Hopefully enough to persuade the holders of the debt currency not to trade it in for the EURO. The Euro will likely replace the dollar as the Worlds currency by early next millenium. The Euro may go straight to E-cash and eliminate hard currency altogether. The talk about Euroland breaking up and the Euro failing? NO CHANCE. Y2K will see to any adjustments that are needed. The Euro will survive and then DOMINATE!! The money flow will likely move this way : US dollars will move to buy cheap Gold and Silver-especially in the U.K where Gold must be purchased in US dollars. WHY? I will leave that up to your imagination. Once the smart money trades inflated US dollars for GOLD , Y2K will reverse the play. GOLD will then be traded or used to obtain a large amount of EURO's before dropping back down. thanks Golden truth.
Aristotle
(06/02/1999; 00:06:43 MDT - Msg ID: 7013)
Read this link. You will know EXACTLY why Gold is your friend, even when its value is obtainable with fewer dollars.
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/19942.htmlExcerpt from an article that documents the hell that some tech stock owners are feeling:

For people in option limbo, the theory goes, dips in the market become emotional catastrophes. In the age of the day trader, when stocks can soar and fall dozens of points on innuendo alone, any given day can be a disaster.
"People come in, and they're suffering so much from the anxiety of it all they can't even work," says Stephen Goldbart, a clinical psychologist.
When a company's stock flames out for good, it leaves behind charred souls.
"There are all these fantasies about the good life, a life most of these people have never lived, and suddenly it's taken away," says Goldbart. "They get frozen and numb around issues of money. It's almost like post-traumatic stress disorder." [click the link and read it all...quite pathetic, actually. Poor saps. I've never heard a tale of a Gold coin going bankrupt, particularly during the worst of times. Why fret your life away? Sheeeesh.]
----------------------

And think about this element, also. As surprising as these downward movements are, it should not be difficult for any reasonable mind to conclude that any and all of these Gold price movements (including any future surprises) could as easily be to the upside.

Review the fundamentals.

All evidence suggests that the dollar's strength is on borrowed time. While it is taking a bit of a scenic route to get there, the 30-year bond is heading south. The dollar is truly a castle built in the sky. When it falls, so will the purchasing power of all cash savings. Gold is safe. Gold is real.

Sure, the argument could be made in HINDSIGHT that a person would have been better off to hold on to his life's accumulated cash savings, to swap for Gold not one moment prior to these current prices; but then again, who knows IN REAL TIME which direction the next move will be? As I offered, it could have been UP just as easily. We'll get there, and with far more Gold than the late-comers! And in the meanwhile, isn't it true that we are not on emotional pins and needles to the extent of those tech stock traders? Isn't the right life a wonderful one indeed? Just like good ol' Aragorn, call me "Mr. Serenity."

Sir Golden Truth asked, "Who is buying the Gold???" Well, I can assure you now that my bills have been paid for the month, I AM! With a constant salary, and fairly constant expenses, this could turn out to be my heaviest "paycheck" yet, with the latest Gold/dollar exchange rate giving me a de facto raise in my metal salary! You can make paper money, or you can make Gold money. Now more than ever, the choice is an obvious one.

Gold. Make you some. ---Aristotle
Aristotle
(06/02/1999; 00:39:17 MDT - Msg ID: 7014)
The possession of Gold has ruined fewer men than the lack of it. --Thomas Bailey Aldrich
It is extraordinary how many emotional storms one may weather in safety if one is ballasted with ever so little Gold. --William McFee (1881-1902)

Like liberty, Gold never stays where it is undervalued. --J.S. Morill (1810-1898)

There can be no doubt that the international Gold standard, as it evolved in the nineteenth century, provided the growing industrial world with the most efficient system of adjustments for balance of payments which it was ever to have, either by accident or by conscious planning. --W.M. Scammell (1920-)

Truth must be ground for every man by himself out of its husk, with such help as he can get, indeed, but not without stern labor of his own. --John Ruskin

Though wisdom cannot be gotten for Gold, still less can be gotten without it. --Samuel Butler (1835-1902)

Gold opens all locks, no lock will hold against the power of Gold. --George Herbert (1593-1633)

Gold is pale because it has so many thieves plotting against it. --Diogenes (412-323 B.C.)

[thanks to MK for these quotes which were gathered in his ABC's of Gold Investing book. And thanks, also, for this month's newsletter...though I can't believe you found the stomach to quote J.M. Keynes in the header, even though the sentiment expressed was appropriate. But C'mon, MK...Keynes?? Will Rogers never met him, I'm sure of it.]

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle (1999)
Oregon Geezer
(06/02/1999; 02:56:13 MDT - Msg ID: 7015)
Peter Asher's message #7008
You sounded a little surprised that Sen. Ron "The Weasel" Wyden did not know about any possible selling of IMF gold. For decades I have lived in The Weasel's district when he was in the House of Reps. Getting some rational thoughts through to him from a conservative perspective is like pushing a rhino through the cat door. He's a dyed in the wool socialist and so he would not give a damn about the selling and buying of gold no matter the consequences unless that activity would benefit the poor, children, hobos, bums or other targets of "compassion." I wrote him off a long time ago.
SteveH
(06/02/1999; 05:23:40 MDT - Msg ID: 7016)
August gold now...
$268.40.
Peter Asher
(06/02/1999; 06:49:32 MDT - Msg ID: 7017)
Geezer
Acoding to what you say, the sale of IMF gold for the purpose of relieving poor nations of debt,would have made him a staunch advocate. Actually he appears to be the antithises of a socialist. "It is not the place of Government to create job's, that is for the private sector to do". "The problem facing most Issues today is that each of several opposing groups has just enough power to stop things, creating political gridlock."
Peter Asher
(06/02/1999; 07:13:39 MDT - Msg ID: 7018)
Cavan Man
http://news.excite.com/news/r/990602/05/business-markets-europeRegarding your posts And, (Which were in answer to my #6941 of 5/31 "Dollar-Euro")

The above URL may shed some light.

Excerpt -- "There is little doubt that the dollar has got problems but the euro
has got even bigger problems," said David Bloom, currency
strategist at HSBC Markets in London.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: Gold Hovers, Euro Record Low, Dollar Nears 1990s High
MARKET REPORT(6/2/99): Gold hovered near yesterday's levels as the dollar
strengthened against most currencies, but most notably the euro which fell below $1.04 and
set a new lifetime low. Reuters reports this morning that European Central Bank (ECB)
president Wim Duisenberg "failed to throw the euro a lifeline." Interventions decoupled
from strong economic policies usually have a short term effect on the market and the ECB is
attempting to send a message that is more interested in the medium to long term with respect
to the currency, as a opposed to a quick fix. In lieu of all this the dollar is approaching its
high against most currencies for the 1990s. Gold broke to the $266 level in Asian trading
overnight but then recovered in Europe on "modest" short covering. The Reuters London
report quotes one Australian security analyst as saying that he didn't think Australian mines
would be shutting down unless the price went to $260 -- an assurance that had more than
one mine company shareholder blink and re-read the statement to make sure it was
understood properly.

There has been quite a bit written on the Bank of England (BOE) sale and we won't belabor
what has become a well-studied event, but we just had to pass along this short analysis
from the Standard Bank of London: "The UK announced its decision to sell more than 400
tons of its gold reserves on May 7th and have subsequently explained the move as simply a
portfolio investment decision, looking to shift into higher yielding assets. Since then gold
has fallen almost 8.50% in less than a month and they have not yet sold an ounce. Not very
clever!" I'll second that.

In other gold news, Bridge News reports a senior official at the World Gold Council as
saying that "World gold prices have hit bottom and begun to stabilize, providing a good
opportunity for buyers." Bridge also reports strong buying in China as the People's Bank
of China cut prices by 7.4% last week.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters. More later if anything crops up.

The featured article in this month's News & Views centers on government finance in an
article entitled "The Financial State of the Union." I'm sure it contains many
surprises for our readers. There is a great deal of difference between what our government
leaders are telling us and the reality with respect to the government's books. This issue is
one or our best and most informative. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call Marie at
1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly newsletter
-- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
Greenspan mum on U.S. rates, warns on free trade
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990602/ze.html"We try to promote free trade on the mistaken ground that it will create jobs. The reason should be that it enhances standards of living through the effects of competition on productivity." -----FRB Chairman Alan Greenspan
TownCrier
Sales of New Homes Up 9.2 Percent
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990602/economy_2.htmlApril single-family home sales jump 9.2 pct from March to seasonally adjusted 978,000, far exceeding the 890,000 forecast. It is the second highest level on record.
TownCrier
Euro Sinks to Record Low, Duisenberg offers comments
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990602/germany_eu_2.html"I'm inclined to play down short-term volatility moves in the exchange rate," he said after the bank's regular biweekly meeting. "In the long run, I see more factors pointing at an appreciation of the euro than at a depreciation of the euro."

Also said that Italy was within the rules, and that any weakening of the adopted strict fiscal/budgetary criteria "would be a real reason for concern" for the euro.

That makes it sound distinctly different than the dollar, doesn't it?
TownCrier
More euro news you can use
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/the_launch_of_emu/euro_latest/newsid_358000/358675.stm"The euro is a currency firmly based on internal price stability and therefore has a clear potential for a stronger external value," and the ECB will refrain from a currency intervention.

The former Italian prime minister said, "I think we will have a strong euro in the future because there will be the conditions for this to happen."
TownCrier
Bonds Drop on Home Sales Report
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/keynumbers/752703.htmlThe bond market is running scared...
TownCrier
Rate Fears Ratchet Up the Pressure on Net Stocks
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/middaymusings/752677.htmlSummary of stuff that someone thought was worth writing about. Inflationary pressures and what not...
TownCrier
Gold news you can use
Karachi--Jun 2--World gold prices have hit bottom and begun to stabilize,
providing a good opportunity for buyers, according to a senior official of the
World Gold Council. By Fakhr Ahmad

Tokyo--Jun 2--In the wake of overnight fears of a crash in US stocks, the US
dollar traded almost flat against other majors today as players remain wary of
the US Federal Reserve's next move and its possible impact on US markets. By
Rika Yamamoto

Hong Kong--June 2--China's gold consumption is expected to rise after the
People's Bank of China, the central bank, cut purchase and sales prices of
the metal last week, the official China Daily reported today. PBOC cut the
purchasing price of gold by 7.4% per gram last week, it said. The paper did
not provide current purchase and sales prices of gold. Bridge News

Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.crbindex.com/
No further reproduction without written permission
CoBra(too)
The Kosovo price?
@ Golden Truth Msg. 6999 & Jinx44 Msg. 7002

I do know about the Trepka & Stari complex (chrome, zink, copper & lead), as I know about huge copper/gold mines and huge potential in Albania itself. Both complexes are poly-metallic and, yes, potentially huge, with even some PGM-potential in their ultramafic layered geology.
Having been in mining finance for a long time I'm always wary of multibillion (trillion) $ deposits or deals. I must admit, I'm not aware of the Greek deal and frankly, I feel that noone ever would consider, or would come close to the financial means of backing such a megabucks deal.
Living close to the Balkan's, where some in this country sarcastically feel it's beginning right before the SE border of our capital - fortunately my place is located west of the place - I have been whitness to the misery of ethnic cleansing of former Yugoslavia. Starting with Slovenia, which did not work out, but even some of our border towns were affected. Croatia was already a major struggle, Bosnia-Herzegowina is still not settled in reality and the Dayton settlements do not work, since they did nothing to factor the centuries of ethnic hate into the "truce", like Croatian Ustascha's vs Serbian Chetnik's becoming the ultimate of brutality, or even bestiality during WWII.
Kosovo, is the historical battleground, where the Serbian nobility rallied around their king at the famous battle of the "Amselfeld" in 1389 and ended with the complete subjugation of Serbia under Turk(ish)Rule for centuries. The dream of greater Serbian kingdom is older than the millenium. It always stayed a dream.
Slobodan Milosevic is hopefully the last of the Balkan tyrants to dream this impossible dream - and he is responsible for several hundred thousands victims and millions of displaced refugees. (In WWI the Austrian Emperor , Franz Joseph,was qouted: "Serbien muss sterbien" -Serbia has to be eliminated)
In view of the ongoing ethnic cleansing and the resulting slaughterhouse it is time to stop this madman, though I agree it is a European problem. Europe, almost 55 years after the devastating war is, at this time not ready to (politically)shape its own fate, but working on it.
As we can see the US PPT (plunge protection team) is recalling every favor , once granted to keep up the rest of us to finance the (paper) asset bubble - and at this stage global consensus is leaning in the direction of complying, since alternate scenarios are spelling doom (systemic risk?), we may not want to risk.

That is part of my believe in the l.t. success of the euro currency and of the l.t. proven qualities of gold as the only historical medium of fair exchange, barter or more to the point valuation of reality. While hoping, together with AG, RR and the rest of PPT, for a soft landing solution, I have given up hope in view of the uncontrolled (hedge) monsters now dictating, where the global economic, currency and human capital is headed. - YOU BET! -


(I disassociate myself from any typos, this message is unrevised-) Regards CoBra2
TownCrier
Hear ye! Hear ye!
http://www.usagold.com/wgc.htmlTHIS WEEK IN GOLD has now been updated!
Follow the link above to view gold market commentary from World Gold Council staff for the past week (May 24 - May 28, 1999). It looks like the people of India will be "making gold" this year. Let's join in!
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold dn $2.4, still pressured
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 2--COMEX Aug gold futures settled down $2.40 at $267.10
per ounce after revisiting Tuesday's $267 contract low. Traders said that
the market remains beset by bearish sentiment, following its move Tuesday
to yet another fresh 20-year low on nearby continuous charts. While some
of today's selling pressure was tied to options activity, the market as a
whole was subdued.

One trader noted that the buying of Jly puts at $260 had helped
selling and shows that the outlook is still negative.
Leonard Kaplan, chief bullion dealer at LFG Bullion Services in
Chicago noted that put options are also clustered at the $265 level. "The
closer we get to $265, the more accelerated the move will be due to delta
hedging," he noted.
"It's not easy to stand in front of a runaway train." However, he
suggested that today's price slide was due "more to a lack of buying" than
"big selling pressure."

He noted that this is understandable, given that the news remains
bearish with gold's fall to 20-year lows "not a psychological highpoint."
He said that many feel they have no need to buy ahead of the UK
Treasury's first gold auction set for Jly 6.

However, the first two to three UK Treasury gold sales could be the
key to a turnaround in the gold price, said Kjeld Thygesen, managing
director of the UK's Lion Resource Management Ltd. and advisor to the
Midas Fund. "If the first two to three auctions go well and are
oversubscribed, this may be the bottom of the market," he said.

Tony Caen, senior precious metals dealer at Credit Lyonnais Rouse,
said that "volume seems to be tailing off as people figure how to trade at
life of contract lows."
"People are only trading gold when they really have to do something,"
he said.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
Echoes of the Fifth Horseman...news of rising oil
London--Jun 2--1229 ET--Saudi Arabia is confident OPEC members were in
full compliance with oil cut pledges in May, a Saudi official said. The
official also said Saudi strategists still expected oil prices to rise in
the "next few weeks" as reduced oil supply affects the market. By Mona
Megalli

New York--Jun 1--Based on the significant decline in oil export loadings
to 20.935 million bpd in the first 2 weeks of May from 21.36 million bpd
in April, OPEC countries are continuing to make strides towards reducing
output, according to tanker tracking data. Forward tanker charter data
also reveals the downward trend in OPEC exports is likely to continue
through June. By Karyn Peterson and Carola Hoyos

Tallinn--Jun 2--1021 ET--Latvian oil terminal operator Ventspils Nafta's
total loaded crude oil and products in May fell 4.5% to 1.924 million
tonnes, from 2.015 million tonnes in April. By David Mardiste

New York--Jun 2--1017 ET--Iraq exported an average of 2.44 million bpd of
crude oil in the week to Friday under the UN's oil-for-food deal, compared
with 2.2 million bpd in the previous week, according to a UN report. The
higher-than-usual export volume came during the week Iraq and the UN
agreed to extend the oil-for-food deal for another 6-month round. By
Carola Hoyos

London--Jun 2--0659 ET--OPEC is likely to agree to extend the oil
output-cuts package that came into effect Apr 1 to support oil prices, an
OPEC official said.
The comment comes amid words of caution from Venezuela's Oil Minister Ali
Rodriguez, who said on Friday that it was too soon to consider such
action. By Alex Lawler

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
Technician
Buy more gold coins, not futures
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlWe goldbugs have a lot of competition. Higher interest rates, a stock market which is not so dead, yet, and an incredibly (for time being) strong $. Dollar average bullion coins until the moment arrives for derivatives. By the way my purchase of Durban deep yesterday hasn't budged. Still 1 7/8 last I looked. All this touting on Eagle, USA and KITCO (what happend to KITCO?) just to get me to help support the price or is it for real? By the way, if you visit my web site, try the zip code weather channel. One of best I have seen with local doppler..every thing. Keep the faith!!! Gold looks a lot better in just about any other currency.
TownCrier
Tea leaves for the day
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990602/7b.htmlMost IMM currencies, led by euros, end sharply lower
Quixote
a parable
a stock broker and a gold heart were crossing the atlantic in an airplane. halfway through the flight, the co-pilot announced that there was a problem. "the plane only has one hour of fuel left, and we're still two hours from the coast." he admitted, but then continued. "not to worry, this is a small airplane and we carry enough parachutes for all our passengers. we will fly as far as we can and then jump when the plane runs out of fuel". he then proceeded to the back of the plane and began to hand out the parachutes, but was interrupted by the stock broker.
"hold on! there's no need to hand out the parachutes yet." insisted the broker. "we still have an hour of fuel left, and there's no need for us to sit here holding bulky parachutes. if we hold onto our tickets, you can exchange them for parachutes when the time comes."
"what!" the gold heart exclaimed. "i want my parachute now!" but he was not heard over the commotion as the passengers frantically searched their belongings for their tickets. concerned, he struggled to the back of the plane and convinced a stewardess to trade him a parachute for his ticket. he then returned to his seat and waited.
as the plane flew on, the co-pilot counted the parachutes, did some quick math, and announced "two parachutes are now available for each remaining ticket holder."
"the remainder of us will each have a reserve chute." boasted the stock broker to the gold heart.
after an hour the plane engine sputtered and died. the passengers rushed to the back of the plane where the co-pilot began handing each passenger two parachutes. at the back of the line, the broker saw the gold heart headed for the open door with his single parachute. "don't you wish you'd waited to exchange your ticket until the co-pilot had counted the parachutes?" he asked.
"no." replied the gold heart as he stepped into the doorway. "the co-pilot's the one who fueled the plane."
Aristotle
Hey Quixote, great parable!
I wonder how many of the passengers actually recieved their two parachutes, and how many had nothing but tickets to flap as the plane went nose down?

Keep 'em coming!
Golden parachute. Get you one. ---Aristotle
Golden Truth
Gold For Silver?
I've come to the conclusion that GOLD can't drop any lower than the price of SILVER. Which at that time i will trade or swap all my 2KG for 2KG of Gold. If i,am really smart i'll probabably wait until the buyers of "puts" drive the price down to $1/oz, before i swap over. That way i can make a 400% profit and take home 10kgs of Gold for my 2kgs of Siver. Now just imagine if Silver rallies and doubles in price,the upside potential is fantastic. Yes folks i know your probabably saying why not wait until it goes lower than a $buck. All i can say is i guess i,am just not that greedy unlike our paper shorting @#%&*(()!~ buddies. Now get out there and buy some Silver i have,nt lost any money on it since i bought it. Which was the same time i've purchased Gold and since have lost $20/oz US. REMEMBER folks the once in a lifetime (millenium)deal to trade Silver for Gold only comes once every thousand years. I can honestly say i'll be quite happy not to be here for it next time either. On a more serious vein there definitely seems to be a two teir market our so i,am lead to believe. It absolutely bewilders me how Gold can be the at a 1979 $price in 1999? When you can not buy a house today at a 1979 price even if the dollar is at 1999 high, which to me means that a house should be cheaper. Also we know that the dollar today has lost most of its purchasing power so that if you compared what $100 in 1979 bought compared to what $100 in 1999 bought you would see a BIG BIG diference?? Iwould say it would be equivalent to buying an oz of gold at $265 in 1979 to an oz of gold costing $2650 dollars in 1999. What the Hell is going on? are all the currencies of the World being destroyed that people from other parts of the World can no longer afford to buy Gold no matter what the price is. Due to the fact that no matter how low Gold goes their currencies go lower? If that is truley what is going on WOE WOE to the World for ther will be a DEPRESSION this Planet has never seen the like of before. ANY PRUDENT COMMENTS WELCOME!!! ( I Smell Fear!) Golden Truth
CoBra(too)
Delta Hedging...
Seeing all those beautifully construed hedging facilities - after all, one of the Black-Sholes noble laureats, winning his hard earned price by placing his mathematically correct rocket scientific (equations) or is it bets based on delta option theories - even the Greek alphabet allows for 24 letters, so how about "omega options/" - was in need of the first in history bail out of a 'hedge fund" called Long Term Capital Mismanegement(name implying insurance towards the vagaries of "off"-markets).
LTCM, the former cheer leader of the gang(-sters)completely misinterpreted the term "hedging" and the the new era technical translation of the day became known as leveraging, which again is a future bet, equivalent to the state lottery. But there is one distinct difference. While the state lottery strives by taxing the herd of unsuspecting happy sheep, the hedge funds invented the economical method of taxing the (greedy) banking establishment, or the shepherds of the new derivative way - akin to greenmail - where there is no escape outside of systemic risk - hence the necessity of PPT - and now the necessity of providing insurance against counterparty risk (an euphemism of an 80 trillion $ derivative, overleveraged, carry trade risk of the banking community? of mostly 10 (et al bullion) banks.

Euro currency may have been the catalyst to put the brakes to the total and global dollarization, for the short term, while gold will be the Alpha to Omega to put the $-printing press of ever more IOU's to rest and test.

$265/oz of AU - make you some more ....
beesting
A different way of measuring the current worth of paper currency.
http://quote.yahoo.com/m5?a=1&s=XAU&t=EURAt 10:30 A M (New York time) it took 257.62 Euro's to buy one ounce of Gold at world spot price.See above URL.
If Mr.FOA's analysis for the future turns out to be correct, in the long term, we all should get used to pricing Gold in Euro's.
Now, since the introduction of the Euro it has been valued in relation ship to the dollar.A paper fiat currency.
All paper fiat currencies flucuate wildly in relation to each other,because of(you name it,political reasons,economic turmoil,wars,financial manipulation,press releases,and many more reasons)Gold remains Gold no matter who got elected,who bombed who,or who's economy changes radically.
When you value the Euro to Gold(real money), instead of the dollar, since its inception'see what it has done.I don't have charts available to do this but some-body out there may.

So,despite all the negative news about the Euro it still took more dollars(about $266) to buy an ounce of Gold than it did Euro's.(257.62) Therefore we can conclude of the two currencies the Euro is the strongest in relation to purchase of Gold at present.

In other local news,went to town today and did my part to create a shortage in Gold.(bought physical)Local coin shop said no unusual volume in sales today,the locals think the price is going lower.
Ran into an old friend whose family used to own a Gold mine, but since lost it,and she related'some locals had recently donated a 9 OUNCE nugget,to the local museum,found many years ago not too far away.
There's still Gold in them thar hills.........beesting
SteveH
August gold now...
$267.10.

Date: Wed Jun 02 1999 17:19
SteveIS (Euro vs. Dollar) ID#286353:
Copyright � 1999 SteveIS/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Volker said that the whole world economy depends on amazon.bomb. Amazon depends on the PPT. The PPT depends on gold leasing for their rescue missions.

Neither Europe nor Japan nor China will endanger the PPT operations. They will prepare for the inevitable failure by buying gold. But not in a way to upset the market. The idea of ANOTHER that the EURO would challenge the dollar is simplistic. The Europeans are happy to have our economy support theirs. They are happy to let us spend our money defending them. They are happy to buy gold cheaply.

They fear a disaster in our financial markets however. After the disaster gold will be necessary to clean up the mess. Meanwhile no world governments want to rock the boat. Rubins goons have free reign to bloody gold.

Smell blood?

Be a shark. Snap it up!

Namaste'


SteveH
SteveH not equal to SteveIS
SteveIS post is from kitco and is not me. Just a good message.

Look at this (good thing computers exist, how else could they track all this? Y2K...hmmm!):



BANK FOR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS
CH-4002 BASLE, SWITZERLAND
Press release Press enquiries: +41 61 / 280 81 88
Ref. No.: 22/1999E
2 June 1999

The global OTC derivatives market at end-December 1998
The BIS is releasing today for end-December 1998 the second set of semiannual statistics on positions in the global over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives market under the new regular reporting framework. The statistics include the notional amounts and gross market values outstanding of the worldwide consolidated OTC derivatives exposure of major banks and dealers in the G10 countries1. They cover the four main categories of market risk: foreign exchange, interest rate, equity and commodity2.

After adjustment for double-counting resulting from positions between reporting institutions, the total estimated notional amount of outstanding OTC contracts stood at $80 trillion at end-December 1998, an 11% increase over the revised $72 trillion reported for end-June 1998. This expansion led to a rise in the market share of OTC derivative instruments relative to those traded on exchanges (from 84% to 86% - see Table 1)3.

A strong increase in interest rate and equity-linked contracts (18% and 17% respectively) more than offset the decline in foreign exchange and commodity contracts (by 4% and 8% respectively). Interest rate instruments thus remained by far the largest component of the OTC market (72%), followed by foreign exchange products (26%) and those based on equities and commodities (with 2% and 0.6% respectively).

Much of the expansion in business over the review period can be attributed to the financial turbulence that followed the Russian debt moratorium and the near-collapse of LTCM. This was particularly true in the interest rate segment, where the widespread unwinding of leveraged positions led to an upsurge in interest rate swaps. The increase in interest rate contracts was particularly pronounced in the Deutsche mark (42%), yen (36%) and Swiss franc (25%) segments. While this reflected the ongoing development of derivatives markets outside North America, in the case of the mark it may have been related to the growing benchmark role of German instruments. The financial turbulence of the second half of 1998 also appears to have had an impact on the sectoral distribution of activity, with a notable concentration of interest rate business within the group of reporting dealers (rising from 43% to 49%).

In the area of equity contracts, the sharp drop of equity markets prompted investors to seek protection, leading to a significant increase in related options. There was, however, a marked contrast between the various regions, with positions held on European and Japanese equities rising strongly and those on North American stocks dropping sharply. While European business appears to have benefited from the growing popularity of retail-targeted investment products, Japanese activity probably received support from the liberalisation and legal clarification of OTC trading. The drop in US and emerging market transactions seems to have been related to the cutback in leveraged transactions, since much of the reduction was in business with non-reporting financial institutions.

In contrast, the sharp swings seen in the major currency pairs in the second half of 1998 do not seem to have been associated with a higher volume of open positions in currency instruments. Indeed, while currency contracts were stable overall, there was a major drop in the options segment. The reduced demand for such products has been attributed to a number of factors, including the withdrawal of leveraged investors in the wake of the Russian moratorium and the near-collapse of LTCM, the stability of European cross rates and a reluctance of investors to deal in emerging market currencies. Moreover, the sudden weakness of the dollar was associated with a substantial increase in market volatility, which made intermediaries reluctant to take positions and pushed up hedging costs for customers (as seen in the reduced stock of contracts held by non-financial customers).

The various market segments continued to demonstrate a number of idiosyncracies. Thus, while there was a rise in the average maturity of interest rate contracts (with 36% maturing within one year compared with 41% at end-June - see Table 3), the share of short-term currency-related contracts increased further (from 87% to 88%). Furthermore, the dollar was the counterpart to 88% of foreign exchange transactions, but only to 28% of interest-rate-related positions.

There was a 25% increase in estimated gross market values in the second half of 1998, to $3.2 trillion. However, taking into consideration the increase in the overall stock of transactions, the rise in market values was less significant, from 3.6% to 4% of reported notional amounts. It should be stressed that such values exaggerate actual credit exposure, since they exclude netting and other risk reducing arrangements. Allowing for netting, the increase in the derivatives-related credit exposure of reporting institutions was much smaller, rising by $0.1 trillion to $1.3 trillion (or to 12% of on-balance sheet international banking assets). The ratio of gross market values to notional amounts varied considerably across individual market segments, ranging from less than 1% for FRAs to 30% for equity-linked forwards and swaps.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1The notional amount, which is generally used as a reference to calculate cash flows under individual contracts, provides a comparison of market size between related cash and derivatives markets. Gross market value is defined as the sum (in absolute terms) of the positive market value of all reporters' contracts and the negative market value of their contracts with non-reporters (as a proxy for the positive market value of non-reporters' positions). It measures the replacement cost of all outstanding contracts had they been settled on 31 December 1998.
2It should be noted that the development of sophisticated trading strategies, the expansion of cross-market linkages and regulatory arbitrage have made it more difficult to interpret the evolution of individual market risk categories.
3The closing-out or modification of existing OTC positions generally results in the creation of new counterparty relationships, whereas most exchange-traded positions can be unwound through opposite contracts and are in most instances reversed before contract expiry. It should also be noted that non-financial contracts and options on single equities are excluded from the BIS data on exchange-traded activity.
SteveH
What a bunch of munk!
NYTimes
June 2, 1999
By TIMOTHY PRITCHARD

ORONTO -- The price of gold has fallen to levels unseen in more than 20 years. But
that does not seem to faze Peter Munk, chairman of the Barrick Gold Corp., one of
the world's biggest and most profitable mining companies.

"I'm not a gold bug," Munk said. "I didn't form Barrick because I love gold. To me it was a
fabulous business opportunity." Even in the current market, he said, the company produces
gold for less than half the price it gets, and "to me, that's like paradise."

Munk's appraisal of the gold business has not shifted, even though the price has fallen from
more than $400 an ounce three years ago to $267 late Tuesday. The most recent reason for
the decline is the announcement by Britain last month that it would sell half its gold reserves,
aggravating oversupply fears.

Certainly, higher prices would make Barrick even more profitable. But it is now "the most
profitable gold company in the world," Munk said. So his concerns are not those of the
world's gold traders and speculators.

Munk, 71, has been involved in other businesses -- stereo manufacturing, hotels in the South
Seas, oil and gas -- with mixed results. But he has done exceptionally well with Barrick,
which he helped establish in 1983. Today it mines gold in Ontario and Quebec provinces as
well as in Nevada, Peru and Chile.

Last year, the company earned a record $301 million on revenue of $1.3 billion, even though
the average spot price for an ounce of gold was $294 in 1998, down from $332 in 1997.

Barrick fared well for three reasons. It mined 5 percent more gold, lowered its operating
costs by 12 percent to $160 an ounce, and sold its output for an average price of $400 an
ounce by hedging -- selling gold it had not yet produced.

Not one ounce of gold Barrick has mined has ever been sold for the market price. Working
with investment bankers, it sells contracts for future delivery and invests the proceeds from
those transactions in high-quality securities. After commissions are paid, Barrick records the
gains from its investments as part of the selling price for gold.

So while the price of bullion has been falling hard, Barrick stock has held up quite well. On
Tuesday, Barrick shares traded on the New York Stock Exchange fell 31.25 cents to
$16.9375, well within their 52-week range of $12.875 to $23.625.

Several precious-metals analysts expect Barrick's profit to keep rising because the company
is less reliant on high-cost mines and is expanding low-cost operations. In a recent report,
HSBC Securities in Toronto said it expected Barrick's profit to rise to $334 million, even
though its average selling price for an ounce of gold is projected to fall roughly 4 percent, to
$385.

During a recent and rare interview in Toronto, Munk described Britain's proposed sale over
two years of 415 metric tons of gold, or 913,000 pounds, as a relatively small quantity that
had provoked a knee-jerk reaction. "There is nothing that this market can come up with in
terms of bad news that has not been totally digested by the main holders," he said.

Unlike longtime gold bugs who fret about the vulnerability that has settled around gold,
making it no different from other commodities, Munk said he thought the price of bullion had
been amazingly strong. Had he been asked 10 years ago what sales from reserves by
governments would do to the price, "I would have said it would have been between $40 and
$50" an ounce.

But this degree of price resilience in the face of bad news, he maintained, "really proves that
gold has a fundamental balance of value as a commodity that is supported by healthy demand
that is created by the world's population getting wealthier."

Nonetheless, there are reasons why the world commodity price of gold is languishing. Other
experts point out that gold no longer plays a key role in world financial markets or as a hedge
in investment portfolios. Moreover, some of the biggest owners of gold are selling. Central
banks in six countries -- Canada, Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands, Argentina and the
Czech Republic -- have already sold bullion from their reserves. Joining Britain will be
Switzerland, selling more than 1,000 tons. The International Monetary Fund may also
become a seller.

The new European Central Bank has determined that its member countries will commit gold
for 15 percent of the reserves backing the euro currency. But according to the Gold Survey
for 1999, published by Gold Fields Mineral Services Ltd. of London, three countries have
considerably more gold -- Germany, with 32 percent of its reserves in bullion, France with
40 percent and Italy with 45 percent.

The possibility that chunks of these holdings, totaling 10,000 metric tons, will spill into a
market with total annual demand just over 4,000 tons worries speculators. The United States
has more than 8,000 metric tons, according to the Gold Survey.

Other forces at work in the financial markets are hurting gold.

One has been the lending of gold by central bankers to hedge funds, which have sold into the
market with the hope of repaying the banks later with cheaper bars. Interest on this lending is
a source of revenue for the central banks. The other has been distress selling within battered
Asian economies, which led to a large increase in what is known in the industry as scrap
supplies. Last year, scrap rose 70 percent to almost 1,000 tons, Gold Fields said.

Munk expressed belief that the gold market would absorb the central bank sales without
much disruption as long as the bankers make their intentions clear.

"Once you have transparency, the market is large enough," he said. "The gold market is as
liquid as for any currency."

Absorbing central bank sales may take time. But the annual demand for gold has been
slightly above 4,000 metric tons for the last few years, while new supplies from mines have
totaled about 2,500 metric tons. Low prices have taken some high-cost mines out of
production.

Munk acknowledged that few rich people now hoard gold bars to protect themselves against
economic uncertainty -- they prefer U.S. government bonds. But, he said, the impact has
been offset by new wealth that economic growth is creating not just in North America and
Europe but also in such countries as India, China and Turkey.

"The explosion of the consumer pool, the trillions of dollars of wealth created by the stock
market -- all that just increases a constantly growing fundamental demand," he said. "And it
has nothing to do with people who 15 years ago bought gold because they believed in the
doomsday of the financial world, like my grandfather did."
Cassius
SteveH Re:Your post #7038
I think there's something here, but I can't figure out the meaning of PPT. I'm a country boy! Please, what does it mean? Thanks much, Cassius
Golden Truth
CoBra(too) The Kosovo Price?
Hello CoBra (too) Check out Mozel's June2/99 :06:30ampost Ties in nicely With GOLD and the U.S Gov's outrageous conduct in the Balkans. Snoop around and get some accounts of the devastation caused by the hospital bombing and a personel account of a Dead 17 year old girl told or seen thru anothers eyes. You Bet!!! Golden Truth
Golden Truth
Cassius
PPT is an acronym for "Plunge Protection Team" Hope this Helps!
THX-1138
Stock Market Plunge Protection Team
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37553a44271c.htm

Found this nice little link on Eagle Forum.

Says that Clinton has been having Rubin and Greenspan prop the market up everytime it drops, by buying S&P futures.

One of the respondents has suggested that the money used to do this is probably coming from the Government Thrift Savings Plan. I used to pay into that fund but quit to buy the yellow stuff. Finally moved my money out of the C Fund which is invested in stock and transfered it to the G Fund which is invested in bonds. If I could I would bail all the money out, but I think the only way I could do that would be to use the money to purchase a house. (first time home buyers can do this and get a tax break) If the TSP money has been used to prop the market up the market then I guess I can kiss it good buy. Kind of glad I stopped paying into it.
turbohawg
TownCrier
thanks for the Greenspan link ...

>"We try to promote free trade on the mistaken ground that it will create jobs. The reason should be that it enhances standards of living through the effects of competition on productivity." -----FRB Chairman Alan Greenspan

It's good to see Greenspan out there making the case for free trade ... if only those politicians who are supposed to be on our side would do the same ... are they capable ??

Furthemore, shouldn't the case be made on more than just economic grounds ?? Isn't the MORAL case at least as important ??

What right does one person or group have to dictate who another person trades with ?? What right does govt have to step in and decide the winners and losers ?? Power, yes ... right, no. If one chooses to, say, buy steel from Russia for any reason, cheaper price or not, what moral case can another make to prevent him from doing so ??

Where are the leaders in this pseudo-free country who have the integrity and courage to stand up for free trade because it's just ?? Where is the devotion to the principle of individual liberty ??

Greenspan no doubt understands the moral case, given his Randian background. But after years spent overseeing and legitimizing the welfare state by means of central bank fiscal policy and currency manipulation, would he be credible ??

'Scuse the rant.

Welcome back Ari ol'chap ... I see you quickly got back into form.
Al Fulchino
Calm before the storm?
Gasoline wholesale price drop of 2 cents/gallon today. First drop since the 18-20 cents/gallon runup earlier in the spring.
Cassius
To: Golden Truth
Ah, yes, that does make the msg more meaningful. Thanks, Cassius
Cavan Man
Commodity Prices: Linerboard & Medium
Linerboard is the stuff corrugated packaging is made of. Medium is the squiggly stuff in the middle. The cost of linerboard converted into various corrugated packaging products affects almost every product we consume. Strange to say but life without corrugated boxes would be quite difficult. Recently, there has been a wave of consolidation in the industry. The trend is continuing consolidation. As the industry consolidates, excess capacity is taken offline permanently. Prices are rising. The industry is moving ahead with a second price increase this year and expects to get it; the first increase sailed thru. (FYI to all )
Cassius
Would the Japanese dump their US Treasuries. This scenario says yes.
http://www2.gol.com/users/png/postal_savings.htmlDepressed about the price of Gold. Well, no matter how the situation plays out with the Europliles vs. the $philes, this scenario says that by 3/31/00, the POG is destined to move up, with the resultant inflation driving it. I always wondered what would be the trigger for them to send all those $$$$ back to us. Cassius
Cavan Man
GW & Foreign Entanglements
USAGOLD: I believe Washington's concern for foreign entanglements reflected the often pitched battle between Jefferson and Hamilton; one being in the French sphere and the other in the British. Also, there were dark, storm clouds on the horizon in France as you know.
Aristotle
From SteveH's article on Mr. Munk and Barrick Gold
"Not one ounce of gold Barrick has mined has ever been sold for the market price."

Did anyone else find that line as remarkable as I did??

"Not one ounce of gold Barrick has mined has ever been sold for the market price!"

Oh, yeah. Sure. When you are buying shares of Barrick's mining business, you certainly should NOT be confused into thinking that you are in ANY stretch of the imagination using Gold as your hedge against a dollar-demise. Sheeeesh! For their business paradigm, they might as well be baking Nabisco Oreo Cookies and speculating on Gold futures on the side.

Granted, the paradigm worked fine under falling Gold prices. Gold above their averaged hedged price will put them in a losing position for the amount sold forward. Stay nimble, Peter ol' boy, and guess well, or you are surely here today and gone tomorrow. I'd rather lock in PAYMENTS of future dollars than RECEIPTS of future dollars. Isn't there a Public Relations problem when you deliver Gold at $400 per ounce at a time when everyone else gets thousand$, and minimum wage has become $100 per hour?

Don't laugh. Gold is obtained against just such a scenario, and you, Mr. Munk, have a business paradigm that is no proxy for Gold. See if you can change your listing on Wall St. to HEDGEFUND.com. Perhaps you would then be better rewarded for your efforts.
Aristotle
Turbohawg, I'm glad to be back, old friend!
Loved your comments to TownCrier on free trade. This comment of yours may help people see things as they should:

"If one chooses to, say, buy steel from Russia for any reason, cheaper price or not, what moral case can another make to prevent him from doing so?"

Excellent! And because steel is a metal, it makes the example even better. As you "buy" steel from them, they are getting something of equivalent value in return. What are they getting? In other words, what are you paying with? Let's assume they are too wise to accept our fiat currencies. Let's say you are paying with wheat (a good, solid, international-type trade, wouldn't you agree?).

OK, now let's take a different look at this. What person can really identify which person is buying from which? Who is the buyer and who is the seller? (Let's not use that uncivilized word, "barter") Are you buying steel with wheat, or are they buying wheat with steel? IT DOES NOT MATTER!!! What matters is that the TRADE DOES OCCUR!

And as you say, what power or entity would dare intefere with this exercise of human rights?

Let's get back to money. Simply imagine that instead of steel, Gold is used in the above transaction. And because it works so well, imagine if Gold were to play one side of each and every transaction that couldn't otherwise conveniently match desired imports. Gold is money, my friends. Insist on free trade, and honest money. If the money doesn't work, neither will trade. (And on my honor, I really enjoy cooking with spices from all over the world, and drinking beer from everywhere, coffee, tea, cheapest petrol, etc.)

Gold. Insist on it, and make you some. ---Aristotle
jinx44
Bail out! THX 1138
Take the money out of the fund, buy a house, get a 125% mortgage and buy the yellow. Let the bank and the govt eat the house. It's only FRNny money! And to all those who's knees jerk and they murmer "gee, that's not right", wake up and feel the handcuffs. A 1930 dollar is worth 7 cents today. Legal theft anybody?
THX-1138
reply to jinx44
I would love to buy a house with it, but not in the State I currently live in. Besides, if I was to default on the house and loan I could lose my job and security clearance due to financial problems. (Real big issue in the office I am at because you become a security risk.) Was in Alaska once and have been trying to find a job to transfer back up there. Really hard. Never move to Alaska if you don't have a job to go to. More than 17% unemployment during winter months.
Golden Truth
CURRENCY CRISIS
http://www.stockhouse.com/interviews/may99/0527Excellent interview with the original Gold Bug JAMES DINES. Very current and easy to understand. Ties in to my earlier post today about World Currencies racing each other to the bottom and our coming depression. BTW i havn't heard much lately from Gata?? Anyone hear of something lately? They seemed to be going strong a couple of weeks ago and now nothing. Also what about the June rumour that the YGM talked about saying that i think german cherez(sp) the banker out of PERU said the price of GOLD would be set free? I guess he meant DOWN? Also where is this staged currency crisis where you turn in your old money for new money that has a metallic strip in it? Wait the best one yet a staged Gasoline Shortage? i just saw gasoline drop 2cents today. One thing i leared here is that "conspiracies are cheap and it takes real money to buy booze" That seems to be the problem the more Gold i buy on dollar cost averaging the less booze i can buy and the more money i lose. I,am beginning to think lifes to short for this and we cah never Win. GOLD is way to manipulated and they have gotten real good at it. What do you think? i'll gladly eat my words if someone knows better, i mean how low can they go and for how long? In the mean time GOLD SUCKS! Because our Goverments SUCK BIGTIME and i feel until that stops we are all Doomed. Just read about the "Plunge Protection Team" over at that other US gold site and you'll know what i mean they been buying 5000 lots on the s&p500 to prop up the Bubble and aparrently to help hillary clinton line here pockets. I mean talk about corruption! Can't really blame a guy for be somewhat disappointed can you. I hope they all Burn in HELL and are salted with fire night and day and may their GOLD be used against them in JUDGEMENT DAY and consume their FLESH to the BONE!!!!!! Now there's something i can sink my teeth into. The price of GOLD may never rise but your torment WILL BE ETERNAL!!!!!!!! AS GOD AS MY WITNESS AND SAVIOUR.
Golden Truth
Plunge Protection Team
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37553a4471c.htmHere it is Folks more SKULDUGGERY!!!
Peter Asher
Turbo, Ari, Jinx, Golden Truth !!!!
You guys are in great form tonight, great reading. Give 'em hell.!! --- THX, to bad your hands are tied, it's a good plan. I believe I once quoted a famous philosopher about "intelligence being measured by the ability to evaluate relative importances." The scenerio you want to protect yourself from may include the demise of the job in any event. Gold could be a great asset to "grub stake" your own business. As the song say's, "Take that job and shove it"
Golden Truth
June Gold Now $264.10
Hey everybody all together now how low can you go? Don't be shy jump on in and lets do the GOLDEN LIMBO yah, wa hoo what a party? I stil say can't go much lower than Silver right?
Peter Asher
Golden Truth
That URl is drawing a blank.
Peter Asher
B.O.E. & Spot at $263.50
I do belief I'm getting a morbid satifaction out of this. That'll teach 'em.
Peter Asher
Speaking of free trade.
Another thing that came up at the meeting yesterday with Senator Wydon, was that there is a story out that the Post Office wants a tax levied on E-Mail, with them receiving the funds to make up for their "losses'. The Senator said that since he is the author of the Internet Freedom Bill, he would certainly be waging war against that idea.

If something like that were to be considered, I think our motto should be "If they tax E-Mail, Go Postal !"
Golden Truth
Peter Asher
Please elaborate on my url drawing a blank i was just posting that gold was now 263.50 but it didn't work and your post beat to the punch. Yet what happened to my message did you see it for a brief micro second? If not what is your meaning? Golden Truth.
SteveH
Depression
I am depressed. Yup. Why?

Everything is opposite the way it should be. History will favor the crazy late nineties. Hindsight will be strong then.

Where is Ralph Nader when you need him?

Where is my proza...?

August gold is depressing too...$265.50.

Peter...don't post spot...it is even more depressingly lower.

Well, Clint Eastwood said as Josey Wales, "...When things are looking real bad, you got to get real plumb mean...."

or something like that. There I feel better.
Golden Truth
Steve H
Howdy Steve H loved your Clint eastwood quote he was definately one of the Good guys! Loved all his movies, especially The Good The Bad and The Ugly! The theme music really added substance also oh the good old Days.
Golden Truth
Gold Spot Now 263.65 up 15cents Whoppee Do!
Where is F.O.A when you really need him eh!
HLime
Gold mine closes
Just read in our local rag that the Nixon Fork mine will close.
That is 40,000 oz Au per year that they can not manipulate.
The mine was way out in the sticks a few clicks from McGrath.
Perhaps that was part of the reason, higher production costs.
Then and again it may be the tip of the ice burg.

Harry
Silver Tongue
Clay Pigeons
I understand that we can get $270.00 per coin per Candian Maple leaf from a hunting club up in Canada for use as clay pigeons at a hunting range. This gold will also make great paper weights as well on my desk at the office. Since the price has dropped so dramatically it reminds me about the automobile burglary up in Denver where the thief broke in and deposited several tickets to a Denver Nuggets basketball game. With the price of gold this low we won't have to worry about someone stealing our gold. Boys and girls I think that if we can weather the storm this gold is going to make us proud. Obviously it is not going to happen this month however. Frustration being the mother of despair helps us to realize that we are not economic orphans. Have faith and buy your ration of gold today.
SteveH
August gold is now...
too depressing to post. I wrote this elsewhere:

Gold at $263.50 is a paper price. I don't think much actual physical is being delivered at these prices. I remind myself that the futures market requires a seller and buyer. The buyer of the contract pays dollars, the seller gold, if delivery takes place.

So, what will bust this price is soon to arrive,imo, to a theater near you: the physical delivery of gold in record proportions at this price.

As proof of not being able to get gold at this price, coins still cost $280-plus plus tax where I live.

What we have here is a market whose paper is disproportionate to its physical demand. This drive lower in paper gold appears strongly to be a deliberate attempt by questionable forces to discredit gold and to drive it as low as will gold, just as it seems S&P futures seem to be equally manipulated higher by unknown and questionable forces (could these be one and the same?). So, it seems every step lower is a step closer to the end-game.

All I can say is join GATA, write your congressmen and women, senators, SEC, etc. be vocal and politely point out to these folks the blatant and unacceptable onslought of market-makers upon these two market areas.

Remember also that this is about a currency war and who will rest the position of world reserve currency. The US$/IMF camp has lots of ammunition in what appears to be a loosing game since every dollar that is printed without one being destroyed further weakens the $.

Gold is discipline and people always find discipline returns in hard times. In the meantime, this would seem to be the grandest of all physical gold and [gold-related stock] buying opportunities.

Julia
FOA
FOA, It's been awhile since our exchange on 5/21/99. I paste it here for your convenience. Thank you for responding to me.

Forgive me, but was that your answer? I've watched for more from you but haven't seen these issues addressed. Did I miss something? Thank you. Julia


Julia (05/21/99; 13:19:20MDT - Msg ID:6574)
FOA - About the U S Dollar's Fall From Grace
FOA, Please forgive me if you have answered this question a million times in a million ways but I still don't
quite have in focus all the logical sequence of events or indicators that are revealed when a currency is going
down, especially US currency.

Please, would you explain what happens to the private citizen as their currency is being devalued? What is
their life like as it happens? What would be prudent things to prepare with other than buying gold. I've read
assorted bits from the good minds here but I have to admit that I'm having trouble piecing them all together
enough to be able to make decisions for my family. I would like to hear your thoughts about what the big
picture looks like in a simple step-by-step fashion using layman's terms....sorry, I don't know much about this
FOA and it's hard to keep it all straight over so many posts.
"When this happens then look for this to happen." "Prepare for this to happen by doing that."

For example, I think someone here recently mentioned that one of the things that will happen is that the USG
will call for the exchange of all the old 20's, 50's and 100's and if you happen not to be an insider and didn't
meet the deadline then you lost those dollars. Does this mean if my cash, not talking about my gold stash now
but my spending money, is in all new 100's, 50's and 20's I won't have anything to worry about when the US
currency crashes? Or does this mean I need to be in 1's, 5's and 10's?

Again I apologize for taking up your time with this naive request. I will be eternally grateful for your thoughts.

Please feel free not to waste your time on this if you wish. You will not hurt my feelings and I will read your
other thoughts with just as much enthusiasm. Thanks. Julia

Your response:

FOA (05/21/99; 18:09:04MDT - Msg ID:6587)
Julia, I get your point and will try to offer what you ask. Keep in mind that this is all like a chess game, with
each player holding a different motive for their course of action. Just as has happened with Britain and the
BOE thing. Their purpose differs greatly from the wants of the USA. Even the US was walking one direction
and may now have changed that!
As for the citizen / investor, their perception of most modern political maneuvers is difficult at best because
most Westerners have no formal education of real money and how the recent (20 years) events have been an
anomaly.

We will talk at length about this. thanks FOA

Technician
Friedrick A. Hayek
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlI was 22, 40 years ago, when I read Hayek's " Road to Serfdom" I remains the one definitive book for me above all others. I have seen the world change with an understanding eye thanks to Friedrick. Published in 1944 it remains must read for all who seek to understand. If you have not read, please do.

Gold is terribly oversold, would not be surprised with an up day today.
Cavan Man
A Golden Truth
Dear Sir: I am posting this because of concern for you. That last post from yesterday that gave the Dines interview link unmasked your frustration and probably others as well. You are quite right about the degree of corruption in the American government and among the government's minions. The United States is at the same time "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" while maintaining at least a profile as the most religious country on earth. How can this be? Simple; today's opiate of the masses is economic prosperity. We have all been lulled into a stupor. I am not stupefied and apparently neither are you. However much "EVIL" has made its mark upon this government, it has not marked you unless you acquiesce. Do not fear in your frustration; fear leads to the dark side Golden Truth; the path is hatred. I share your sentiments and your frustration. However, I do not believe the perception in these economic times is reality. History is a good teacher. History can help us predict the future. The big money and mockers of this day and age will eventually crash the system. It may take time though. The world economy is balanced precariously much like the US stock market. Some outside force/event will upset the apple cart. When that happens, gold will soar. Since gold is an inherent threat to government monetary policy, at that time expect a full court press on gold. Maybe then it will be time to get out. As for me, I am keeping what I have bought through thick and thin. Gold is more than insurance; it is freedom. So, my final thoguhts are (and I apologize for the rambling), be in the world but not of it. Go about your business and keep your own counsel. Be at peace. Many will eventually receive their just desserts. Let us be certain that you and I are counted among the just men who are barely saved.
Cavan Man
Golden Truth Continued
The good guys always win in the end!
Peter Asher
Getting un-stuck
$263.50 to $$266.40 to $265.00, now $265.25 in less than two hours. Volitility + mobility + recovery = ecstasy
Peter Asher
Cavan Man
Good Morning. Well said,"truth for Golden Truth" good start on the day.
TownCrier
Belgrade accepts peace document brought by envoys
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990603/oo.html"Yugoslavia accepts the peace document brought together by the highest representatives of the European Union and Russia"
Will NATO reject it and keep dropping bombs? Place your bets...
TownCrier
from the Something Is Brewing Department -- "China to Banks: Close Yuan Accounts"
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990603/china_curr_1.htmlRead this! A precursor to yuan devaluation? Something else?
TownCrier
Steel Producers Seek More Tariffs
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990603/steel_trad_1.htmlThe industry filed its latest complaints Wednesday, asking the federal government to impose tariffs.

Here is one for our free trade people to rail about. Should we pay more for steel because our next-door neighbor can't or won't sell it as cheaply as a source across the road will sell it?
Al says, "I don't THINK so, Tim."
TownCrier
Greenspan voices free trade fears
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_359000/359301.stmUS Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan says he is concerned at signs of weakening support for free trade in America. "It is clear that all economic progress rests on competition. It would be a great tragedy were we to stop the wheels of progress because of an incapacity to assist the victims of progress."
TownCrier
Serbia accepts peace plan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_359000/359803.stmSlobodan Milosevic accepts an international peace plan for Kosovo - but bombing is set to continue until he withdraws his troops.

From the Ernest & Julio Gallo School of military thought, "We will spare no infrastructure before it's time."
TownCrier
ASIA FOREX - Regionals relaxed despite yuan scare
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990603/4.htmlA pile of currency commentary...lots of paper with little substance.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: Y2K Buying Recharges
MARKET REPORT(6/3/99): Gold opened slightly lower today after trading down nearly
$2 in yesterday's session. Overnight the metal was pushed to the $263.50 level in Tokyo
where short covering entered the market and prevented the yellow from dropping further.
The Tokyo drop was attributed to Australian producer selling. The trend continued into
European trade. There were no new features to the market today and the trends evident
since the BOE announcement appear to still dominate trading. Rumors of an additional two
million ounce "put" purchase by Morgan Stanley on Tuesday have kept most paper traders
on the short side of the market.

At the same time, the low prices continue to encourage physical purchases. At CPM (and I
am certain other gold firms), purchases of gold coins have reached levels that we haven't
seen since the fourth quarter last year and first quarter this year. It is not as hectic as it was
then, but it is close. April was subdued, but volume began to pick up in mid-May and now
the Y2K buyers are back in full force.

Speaking of Y2K, talking with many of the people interested in purchasing gold as the price
drops, we find that investors are not as concerned at this time about massive disruptions in
the United States resulting from "the bug." Instead most are concerned about breakdowns
in raw material supply lines, particularly oil, as the embedded chip problem manifests itself
in a slowdown, or even shutdown, of delivery systems in oil producing areas. In turn many
investors think that those breakdowns, or slowdowns, could manifest themselves in higher
prices and an inflationary tone next year. They are buying gold in case those breakdowns or
slowdowns translate to acute shortages, rationing, etc.

There are also concerns about the banking and settlement problems in international trade due
to the large number of unresolved computer problems all over the world. R.E. McMaster,
editor of the The Reaper newsletter points to a acute problem in Japan -- the world's second
largest economy. He says that of the 19 big Japanese banks, only two are 75% Y2K ready,
over 50% are 25% prepared. He goes on to point out that eight of these banks rank among
the world's top twenty. "Japan," he says, "is a mammoth Y2K domino that could topple the
whole financial system globally."

The other concern bothering investors is the over-valued stock market. Many see it as a
bubble waiting to burst and have decided to convert some of their paper profits into gold to
preserve the gains.

Bridge News reports this morning that "The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA)
chairman Bill Murphy today said that the massive gold lending has reached a point which
may pose a 'systemic risk' and called for greater transparency in central bank gold lending
practices. GATA estimates that gold speculative borrowing is around 3,000 tonnes and that
total gold lent into the market ranges from 8,000 to 10,000 tonnes."

The featured article in this month's News & Views centers on government finance in an
article entitled "The Financial State of the Union." I'm sure it contains many
surprises for our readers. There is a great deal of difference between what our government
leaders are telling us and the reality with respect to the government's books. This issue is
one or our best and most informative. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call Marie at
1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly newsletter
-- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
USAGOLD
Incredible!!
WARNING...IMPORTANT...URGENT!!!

Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and
continue using email:

The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of
the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation that
will affect your use of the Internet.

Under proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to
bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees".

Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govty to charge a 5 cent surcharge on
every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source.

The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C.
lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation
from becoming law.

The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the
proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per
year.

You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a
letter".

Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in
1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50
cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular
Internet costs.

Note that this would be money paid directly to the U.S. Postal Service
for a service they do not even provide.

The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference.

If the federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by
adding a surcharge to email, who knows where it will end.

You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of
bureacratic efficiency.

It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from New
York to Buffalo.

If the U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email, it will
mark
the end of the "free" Internet in the United States.

One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a "twenty to forty
dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond
the
government's proposed email charges.

Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only
exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email
surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th 1999
Editorial.

Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away!

Send this e-mail to EVERYONE on your list,

and tell all your friends and relatives to write to their congressman
and say "No!" to Bill 602P.

It will only take a few moments of your time, and could very well be
instrumental in killing a bill we don't want.

Kate Turner
Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and Gorman Attorneys at Law
216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va.






Louis Williams
Louis B. Williams, Jr.
Austin Area Manager
Chicago Title Insurance Company
1601 Rio Grande Street, Suite 300
Austin, TX 78701
512-480-8353, (F) 512-469-5814, williamslo@ctt.com
Golden Truth
Thanks Cavan Man!
Your right in everything you spoke of to me. I guess i have been hitting my spirtual thumb with a golden hammer lately. I might add i think i wacked myself in the head a few times lately as well. Thanks for the "most excellent" and kind words, my spirt has been encouraged and may i please also some day, be able to watch over you to be able to repay my debt of "Spirtual Encouragement" unto you. Time to go out and buy "John Hagee"s book, His Glory Revealed. N.B The Truth shall Set You Free! thanks Golden Truth.
Goldfly
Gee MK, I wish youda asked me first!
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html
That email tax thing is a hoax. That is, HOAX!

Click on the last link in the second paragraph of the above link.

Always check your source!

GF

USAGOLD
Thanks, Goldfly....
Glad it is a hoax...
NORTH OF 49
E-mail taxation--the forces of evil thwarted again!!!
MK
Don't feel bad, the exact same thing hit Canada about three weeks ago. It came out with the exact same format, complete with the address of a "reputable" law firm that was supposedly battling for our rights---"for free"---like that's going to happen in our lifetime!!!
No49
Gandalf the White
GC9Q is now "lookin good"
268.3 on my crystal ball now.
<;-)
TownCrier
NYSE Delays Extending Trading Hours
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990603/nyse_exten_3.htmlY2K cited as a significant reason for the delay. They must be VERY concerned about Y2K in general, because frankly, I don't see much connection between Y2K and length of trading hours. Either everything works--from opening to closing bell--or it doesn't. Are you willing to bet your wealth that it doesn't?
TownCrier
Fed looking for inflation acceleration-Gramlich
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990603/5c.htmlBut he declined to comment further on the U.S. monetary policy outlook. "I'm sorry but this a very delicate time," he said.
Aristotle
Here's a nifty nugget I found while dredging through the archives.
Can you guess who said it?
- - - - - - - -
"You asked if you were on the right track. Well...there are as many
facets as shattered glass, different facets holding the strongest appeal
for different people. You touched upon but a few. Nor will I attempt
it...BOOKS are written on this. To the limited extent we discussed some
of these matters I thoroughly enjoyed the exchange. Thanks for your
part. My gold awareness and position has developed as I see through the
eyes of an engineer. The world abounds with opportunities for the
professional art of applying science to the optimum conversion of
resources to benefit mankind. If put to the task, a team of engineers
could NOT devise a monetary tool or system nearly as perfectly suited
for use as is gold. Economists certainly could not do it. Witness their
track record. Any viable monetary system MUST use gold as a fundamental
element. Any resistance to using gold could be viewed as a product of
intellectual stubbornness and arrogance...or else it must be admitted
that the device is crafted for the benefit of the few at the expense of
the others. You do not use a screwdriver to drive nails when a hammer is
at hand. Similarly, why would you build bridges with paper and
imagination when there is a world-class engineering alternative?
Beginning with honesty, integrity, and ethics, you arrive at gold.
A different conclusion reveals a different beginning..."
- - - - - - - - - -

Perfect money. Get you some. ---Aristotle
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Jun gold up after new 20-yr low
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 3--COMEX Aug gold futures managed to recoup early
losses, settling up 50c at $267.60 per ounce. Aug had fallen to another
contract low and fresh 20-year low on continuous charts of $265.20 per
ounce in the overnight NYMEX Access trading session. Traders said that
gold saw little activity in the US session, managing to edge up as day
traders were caught short by the uptick.
However, they warned that sentiment remains negative and suggested that
gold could be due for a further slide.
One trader suggested there was "little rationale" for today's climb,
attributing it mostly to day traders, but also to some short covering from
one major fund, which was "probably getting a bit nervous."

"Fund buying late in London caught the market short and there was a
rally ahead of New York. People did what they had to do, leaving NY alone
to slowly and painfully drift back up," said Tony Caen, senior precious
metals dealer at Credit Lyonnais Rouse, noting that interest in today's
market was "light."
He said that after day traders had covered, they were "left to lick
their wounds" for the rest of the day. He noted that activity was subdued
because players were treating the market with some caution. "people just
don't know how to trade gold at these new low levels," he said.

The overnight slide was triggered as spot gold fell below $265 support
on selling from Australia, with stop-loss selling then leading to a
further tumble.
Some believed that sell orders were placed by US investors through
Australia based dealers, while others said selling could have come from
Australian producers.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
koan
egg on my face
Well, I was obviously wrong about gold holding above $268. Like many, I have no idea where we go from here, but I just do not see gold going much lower or silver for that matter. My G and S junior metal stocks are way above what I paid for them in August 98. Wait and watch I guess. I still think this is the time to buy any precious metals or metals stocks.
TownCrier
Fed's Meyer sees strains emerging in U.S. banking
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990603/86.htmlThe U.S. banking industry is showing signs of strain..."the volume of nonperforming assets increased last year for the first time since 1991 with the deterioration concentrated within commercial and industrial loans," Meyer said.

Credence Clearwater Revival says, "I see a bad moon (er, loan) risin'..."
TownCrier
TECHNICALS-Forex market views and key chart levels
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990603/9h.htmlGimme a break. If we all used gold, we could send these clowns packing for home...
TownCrier
The Fed Prepares to Go Hiking
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/marketfeatures/752871.htmlWill they, or won't they? Analysts weigh in.
TownCrier
Stocks End Mixed After Late Wave of Selling
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/mktupdate/753062.htmlA recap on the market action of the day.
TownCrier
EU worried about Y2K, nuclear power plants
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,37310,00.html?owvThe European Commission expressed alarm today about potential Y2K disruptions to public infrastructure within EU borders--including electricity blackouts, breakdowns of wastewater pumping stations, and overloading of telecoms networks, saying it was especially worried about nuclear power plants in the former Soviet bloc.


JCTex
e-mail tax hoax
To All:
I apologize to all of you for the hoax "e-mail tax warning." I sent it to MK, so any barbs should be aimed at me. MK I apologize to you, too, my friend. Also, thanks to whoever posted the hoax warning site...think I'll be checking it from time to time.
TownCrier
S.F. Fed head expects few Y2K bank problems
http://www.computerworld.com/home/news.nsf/all/9906034fedsDuring the second and third quarters, some of the most severe cases of Y2K noncompliance could be made a matter of public record according to the S.F. Fed official.

Citizens were discouraged from withdrawing money from their accounts, with the rationale that the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corp) could cover losses up to $100,000, but not if the money was under your mattress.

OK, now wait a minute. If the money is under your mattress, it would seem that you wouldn't need the FDIC at all. Further, if Y2K glitches shut down the bank, surely those same glitches would derail the FDIC!
These are the times that try men's souls...

Peter Asher
Michael, Goldfly,
Did you see my # 1761 at the bottom of today's page. At least one Senator is on top of whatever may come at us regarding Internet taxation. And, at least I heard it directly from him in person, rather than from a journalist's allegations. I feel that what a Politician say's at a grass roots local meeting is more likely to be his true intentions than pre- election campaign events.

Regardless of the Hoax report, I say "where there is smoke there is fire", and I still smell something burning! I predict we'll hear more about this. The specifics of that report may have been false, but the concept sounds to bad not to be true.
TownCrier
Ms. Rivlin resigns...BOARD OF GOVERNORS VICE CHAIRMAN
The Honorable William J. Clinton
President
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear Mr. President:

I write to submit my resignation from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors (and from my position as Vice Chair) effective July 16, 1999.

I have had a wonderful time at the Federal Reserve. It has been a privilege to serve with Alan Greenspan and my fellow members on the Board for the last three years. The Fed is a strong bulwark of U.S. economic policy, and I believe we have contributed to keeping the American economy growing and reducing strains in the international financial system. Thank you for giving me this opportunity...etc.
...
With warm personal regards,
(Signed Alice)
Alice M. Rivlin


TownCrier
Remarks by Governor Laurence H. Meyer from the Federal Reserve Board
During the 1990s, banking organizations have increased tremendously in size as a result of the consolidation process, and the complexity of many bank activities has grown as well. These developments have crucial implications for bank supervisors, including those pertaining to systemic risks. In many respects, they have also made bank supervision more difficult.

We have not yet achieved "financial modernization" in terms of legislation, but we certainly have a far different banking and financial industry than existed a decade ago. Undoubtedly, more change is on the horizon, as distinctions among financial institutions continue to erode. That fact simply underscores the need for Congress to modify U.S. banking laws and permit the regulatory environment to catch up with market events.

Meanwhile, bank supervisors and regulators should remain focused on their principal tasks. First, to ensure that the banking system remains sufficiently safe and sound, posing little risk to the federal safety net and adequately protected against systemic risk. Second, to ensure that the industry continues to provide the American public with a full range of competitively priced banking services and conforms to legislative standards of competitiveness.

...

We are pursuing our objectives both domestically among ourselves and abroad through the Basel Committee on Bank Supervision, under the auspices of the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland. We are designing a way forward, building upon the "three pillars" approach outlined in a consultative document released today by the Basel Supervisors Committee, a subject I will return to in a moment. This approach encompasses (1) a strong, risk-sensitive regulatory capital standard; (2) an active supervisory program; and (3) improved bank disclosures that allow the marketplace to evaluate an institution's risk posture and to reward or discipline it appropriately.

In my remarks today, I would like to address many of these and other points, with particular emphasis on the supervisory process and how we at the Federal Reserve are adapting to change. At the outset, I would emphasize that bank supervision is, by its nature, a dynamic process. Our practices must constantly improve or they will become quickly outdated. Supervisors must also be flexible, both in their application of supervisory techniques to banks and in their expectations regarding what practices individual banks should follow.

...

One aspect of supervision that has become more crucial to our oversight process relates to systemic risk and to the activities of our largest banking organizations. A decade ago, for example, the 20 largest U.S. banking organizations held 68 percent of the assets of the 50 largest bank holding companies; now its 82 percent. Then, the 20 largest holding companies held 37 percent of all U.S. commercial bank assets; now that figure has risen to 64 percent.

Those figures conceal, of course, the dramatic increase in the complexity of their activities represented by securitizations and derivative products. The notional value of derivative and futures contracts held by U.S. banks now exceeds $33 trillion, nearly five times the level at the end of 1990. Securitizations by U.S. banks, at $270 billion, have grown as fast and are expanding beyond consumer-based loans, such as credit card and auto loans, to commercial credits. Virtually all of these securitization and derivative activities are concentrated among the largest banks. While notional values and amounts securitized say almost nothing about the level of underlying risk to individual banks, they speak strongly to the increased volume and complexity of large bank activities and of the somewhat hidden risks they face. For these organizations, balance sheets and traditional lending have much different meanings from a decade ago.

... [here is the good part. Why can't they say GOLD instead of masking the term as "high-quality, low-risk assets"?]

New Capital Proposal
As I mentioned earlier, the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision has now released its long awaited consultative report on revisions to the 1988 Basel Capital Accord. For the largest institutions, the Accord has increasingly been weakened by the changes that have occurred in financial markets. Most importantly banks here and abroad have been engaging in capital arbitrage techniques designed to move their higher quality, lower-risk assets to securities markets, sometimes reducing their capital charges on these assets more than proportional to the retained risk positions. In addition, the remaining higher-credit risk assets have the same regulatory capital charges as the lower-risk assets that have been securitized, changing the meaning of the resultant capital ratio. For these and other reasons, the 1988 Accord has become increasingly undermined and the risk-weighted capital ratios have become more difficult to interpret.

Modifying the Accord is an incredibly complex and difficult procedure, not only because it must be negotiated among 12 nations and affect the policies of many more, but also because the issues are so difficult...

[That should be enough brain food for one evening!]
jinx44
Revolting Rivlin Routed
Dear Alice is a socialist hack that bj-boy WJC got into the USTreasury. Here first pronouncement was to suggest a one time 15% tax on ALL savings accounts, 401's, etc and a yearly 15% tax on the remainder. She has certainly made the rounds and will now exit with a cushy ivory tower job where she can help plot the rest of the demise of this country. We haven't seen the last of her third way machinations.
Gandalf the White
Here are a couple of items from SJ Kaplan which confirms my crystal ball is NOT in need of adjustment !
Gold Mining Outlook
http://www.goldminingoutlook.com.
by Steven Jon Kaplan
Updated @ 6:20 p.m. EDT, Thursday, June 3, 1999.

COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities ended significantly higher on Thursday, their fourth consecutive strong showing, while precious metals closed mixed once again with sharp divergences. Gold edged up 50 cents to $265.90 spot after touching a new historic low of $263.25 spot at 11:18 p.m. EDT on Wednesday, June 2, 1999. Silver fell 4.0 cents, platinum surged $4.00, and palladium retreated $1.25. The
spread between the XAU and spot gold continued to fall, dropping 0.7 to 203.5, and is now quite substantially below recent norms near 220. This gap is likely to widen especially as the yellow metal rallies above $290; it is recommended that investors continue to switch from North American to non-North American gold shares. In other markets, bonds fell slightly, while the U.S. dollar rose
slightly and equities closed mixed.

KAPLAN'S CORNER: Question: What will happen to the spread between the XAU and spot gold as the gold price rises? Answer: The spread essentially represents the cost per ounce of production. As the gold price rises, demand for qualified workers increases, pushing up wages of gold miners. In addition, expansion projects are undertaken which would not be economic at lower prices, thus
increasing the average cost per ounce of production. Therefore, as the price of gold rises, so does the spread. At $300 per ounce the spread is about 220 (i.e., with gold at $300, the XAU will be roughly 80). At $350 per ounce it is likely to be closer to 230 (XAU = 120).
---
<;-)
USAGOLD
JCTex
Your post is appreciated. It's no biggie. We need to be ever alert and if an occasional error is the cost of that than it's a small price to pay. Please do not hesitate to send me other information as it comes to you.
SteveH
Interpretation?
For the largest institutions, the Accord has increasingly
been weakened by the changes that have occurred in
financial markets. Most importantly banks here and abroad have been engaging in capital arbitrage techniques designed to move their higher quality, lower-risk assets to securities markets, sometimes reducing their capital charges on these assets more than proportional to the retained risk positions. In addition, the remaining higher-credit risk assets have the same regulatory capital charges as the lower-risk assets that have been securitized, changing the meaning of the resultant capital ratio. For these and other reasons, the 1988 Accord has become increasingly undermined and the risk-weighted capital ratios have become more difficult to interpret....

Some large banks have been lending gold out to obtain a return on investment (can't figure out what it means: sometimes reducing their capital charges on these assets more than proportional to the retained risk positions).

Then I can't really understand the next sentence. At least I got the gold lease part right. Thoughts?


USAGOLD
Steve,
For what it's worth, that looks like something Alan Greenspan would have written -- skillfully arcane. An answer without an answer to a question no one would bother to ask. I think there are a number of politicians in Congress who would move to regulate derivatives if they could just figure out where in God's name to start. AG is making sure they keep looking around for the starting line. The quote was meant to confuse. And you say, "huh?" Me too.
mike55
NYSE Extended Trading Session
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/nyse.htx?source=htx/http2_mwInteresting to note that in April of this year over one hundred of the largest firms held a marathon session of simulated trades leading up to the 12/31/99 rollover and a few days following that date. As I recall, the report was essentially rosy, some minor glitches, and plenty of time to fix things.

Now the evolution of the paper trading mania turns to extended hours, kinda' like your local 7-11...."we're always open!" (Disclaimer: Barring any unforseen meltdown). A couple of days ago it sounded like it was full speed ahead to almost round-the-clock trading some time this year.

Today comes news that "we're really too busy with that fraction-to-decimal conversion work and that pesky Y2K thing". Wait a minute....what changed between April and June that increased the Y2K workload and made it such a priority? Nothing. It's been there all the time.

If you're going to trade paper, make sure it's for metal!
Peter Asher
Steve
First, a definition of an earlier part of the statement:

<practices must constantly improve or they will become quickly outdated. Supervisors must also
be flexible, both in their application of supervisory techniques to banks and in their expectation regarding what practices individual banks should follow.

This translates to "There is no policy. What ever we do will depend on which way the financial and political wind is blowing."

I will attempt to translate the statement in question, but I may do no better than they did.

<arbitrage techniques designed to move their higher quality, lower-risk assets to securities
markets, sometimes reducing their capital charges on these assets more than proportional to the
retained risk positions. In addition, the remaining higher-credit risk assets have the same
regulatory capital charges as the lower-risk assets that have been securitized, changing the
meaning of the resultant capital ratio. For these and other reasons, the 1988 Accord has become
increasingly undermined and the risk-weighted capital ratios have become more difficult to
interpret.>>

When they lend (sell) gold, to buy securities that will yield more, they are not properly quantifying the increased danger of getting wiped out due to owning paper instead of gold. Therefore whatever regulations exist to protect the assets are being circumvented. And therefore who ever is responsible for monitoring this is being blind-sided.
USAGOLD
E Mail Question on Gold Loans from Chris
I wonder if you would not mind answering a question for me, actually two
questions. First how do we KNOW that there is so much gold sold short,
forward etc? Second if we agree that 8000 to 10000 tons IS sold forward, how
big an economic impact would that have on the world economy if all that had
to be covered fairly quickly. And of course what gold price might we see
after the dust settles, that is what range would be see gold trade in for
the year or so after such dust were to settle? The main question is how we
know that so much gold is short and how big a financial impact covering
might have? Thanks. I ask this because in the March June Kaiser Bottom
Fishing Report ( you can get a copy probably from him at 925 631 9748, there
is a very intelligent article on gold when points how that the numbers
thrown around seem to be speculations and to his knowledge, he does not know
of any subtantive proof or evidence that there in fact is such a large short
position. Thanks. Chris.

----------------
USAGOLD Reply:

Chris, I will post your questions and let things take their course. I am sure you will get much opinion from the Table Round, and invite all to comment on your important questions.

Let me just say that the risks are large and give you a rough outline why:

1. Most of the top people in the industry believe that 8000 tons are short of the mark. Some go as high as 14,000 tons. These numbers did not come out of the clear blue. They came from people like Frank Veneroso, a respected analyst with deep ties among central bankers. The traders also believe that the exposure is significant. I was told today by a major trader that the current rumor is that LTCM alone is short 1000 tons. Please note: You have not seen one top line central banker refute these figures or even comment on them.

2. The risk is with the counterparties who have gauranteed these gold loans to all sorts of borrowers but primarily mining companies and hedge funds. These are some of the top financial institutions in the United States. If for some reason the borrowers can't make good, the counterparties will have too.

3. I continue to believe that the BOE sale might be related to bailing out a counterparty in Britain. I don't think they would be doing this unless the entire British financial system were jeopardized by this counterparty failing. Just think what would happen if a similar circumstance were to develop here in the United States As you probably already know the pound is plummeting and the reason is that the market smells blood in the water. This is not a minor event.

4. Ultimately, what it all might mean is that once counterparties are threatened with failure central banks might be required to bail them out with gold -- an item unlike paper that cannot be printed. It could mean massive depletion of reserves in the host countries and all that that would portend, including an attack on the currency.

I would not make the mistake of taking this lightly. If reserve depletion is an abstract to you, consider what happened to Malaysia, Thailand, the Phillipines, Indonesia, S. Korea, Brazil, Argentina and Russia once their currency reserves were depleted. It is not a pretty picture.

Hopefully this will tie some loose ends together and perhaps help you develop some conclusions of your own. At the least I hope it encourages further study, because this is my purpose. My answer is not comprehensive but meant to offer a starting point.

MK

SteveH
Peter
By George, I think you have it. The fed just admitted that banks may just have a systemic problem caused by new paradigms and regulations that don't even account for them, let alone regulators who can figure them out.

Odd that you chose the word blindside as often times a traffic light only goes up after several or one fatal accident. In other words, traffic lights (regulations) only happen when accidents point out safety problems. This is management by exception. Well, as derivatives, and the yen and gold carry trades are accidents waiting to happen. To those of us who either drive through that intersection or who are merely pedestrians witnessing the congestion and traffic at that intersection, we fully realize there is a problem, we have enven notified all we know in government that their is a problem, but either government isn't listening or it has been stalled in committee or the engineers can't decide what kind of traffic signal, four way stop, yield sign is really needed to control that traffic.

From my perspective, it appears that until derivatives can be blamed as the cause of a major traffic accident at that intersection in our financial system, either nothing will be done or the wrong sign will be put in place. But if you are a believer in homeostasis or equilibrium, then all systems out of equilibrium will return to a steady state given enough time, time that we all agree is running out for the new-paradign financial markets of leased gold, PPT's, and derivatives (whose definitions boggle the mind, not even counting the complexity of managing them). In other words, sit at that intersection long enough you will see lots of close calls then the big one. I think lots of close calls have already ocurred. Now we await the big one. You can see it is inevitable, you just wish you could get someone out their direct traffic until it happens but you just can't get through to the number at city hall to make it happen.

So the next time each of us drives through our home towns, try to imagine which of the traffic signals you are passing were put there only after an accident that caught city official's attention enough to warrant the placement of that signal. Then think of the gold market today. Scary.
Peter Asher
Thanks Steve
Glad to see I achieved something. And, thanks for the quick response

I wonder if the purpose of the doublespeak is to keep us from seeing what's going on, while being able to say they told us so.
SteveH
Peter
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?999You can answer that question by looking at how they say things they want you to understand. My guess is obfuscation makes the obvious obtuse, eh?

How about this?

BY ALASDAIR MURRAY, ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT



EUROPEAN Union leaders are to try to introduce a euro-gagging order in a desperate attempt to restore confidence in the ailing single currency.
Under a German proposal presented to finance ministers at the EU summit in Cologne yesterday, only Wim Duisenberg, President of the European Central Bank, and his deputy Christian Noyer will be allowed to comment officially on the euro's performance.

The move came as Tony Blair joined a co-ordinated rallying call from EU leaders to help to boost the beleaguered currency, insisting that he wanted Britain to join the single currency soon after the next election.

The euro's dire performance recently has become a source of severe embarrassment to the euroland countries. Although Europe's poor economic performance is regarded as the root cause of the euro's decline, often contradictory comments from European Central Bank (ECB) members and European finance ministers have created confusion in the markets and raised a big question over the currency's credibility.

Heavyweights such as Hans Tietmeyer, the Bundesbank President, have indicated their unhappiness with the currency's decline and raised the prospect of ECB market intervention to prop the euro.

The official ECB line, however, has been to play down the euro's slide as a normal function of the currency markets. Some politicians have also hinted that a weak euro may prove helpful in boosting EU export prospects.

Speaking at the summit yesterday, Mr Blair said that his intention to hold a referendum on British entry early in the next Parliament was "real" as long as the Government's conditions were met. He added: "What is important to realise is that it is in Britain's interest that the euro succeeds."

His comments on the timing of possible British entry differed in tone from his remarks at Labour's European election campaign launch two weeks ago, when he said that he would not be tied down by an "arbitrary timetable".

The Tories accused Mr Blair of trying to make up for an earlier "lapse of leadership", but welcomed the fact that "belatedly" he had introduced the Government's euro-enthusiasm into campaigning for the June 10 polls.

Government officials denied that Mr Blair had shifted his position. However, his attempt to talk up the single currency and the likelihood of British entry betrayed the concerns among EU leaders at the euro's continued slide.



then...

Bundesbank chief hints at ECB prop for euro

BY ALASDAIR MURRAY, ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT



HANS TIETMEYER, President of the Bundesbank, yesterday hinted that the European Central Bank could still intervene in the markets to prop up the ailing euro, insisting the ECB is not neglecting the exchange rate.
"We are not in favour of any neglect of the exchange rate. The markets have not realised the potential of the euro, it is up to them if they want to lose money," Herr Tietmeyer said in a speech at Oxford University.

The comments, however, appeared to contradict the views of Wim Duisenberg, President of the ECB, who on Wednesday said he was inclined to play down the recent fall in the euro.

Mr Duisenberg's views were yesterday echoed by Guy Quaden, Governor of the Belgian Central Bank and an ECB governor, who claimed the euro's decline in value was "not greatly important".

The ECB's apparent inability to agree a coherent line on the euro has been one of the main factors in the currency's rapid slide this week.

The latest confusion took a fresh toll of the euro, which earlier had enjoyed a brief respite bolstered by the news that the Yugoslav Parliament has accepted a peace plan for Kosovo.

The euro climbed from a new dollar low of $1.0303 to clear $1.04 before tumbling back towards $1.0330. The euro also shed its gains against the pound to trade at about 64.30p, compared with a high of 64.76p earlier in the day.

A leading economist yesterday forecast that the euro could fall as low as $0.90 by the end of the year. David Hale, chief economist of Zurich Financial Services and a member of the academic advisory board of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, said the failure of European politicians to kick-start structural reforms and strong growth prospects in the US would continue to depress the euro.

He added that Germany had entered EMU with an overvalued currency and would need "a soft currency to compensate".




SteveH
Banc(ruptcies)
http://www.cnnfn.com/hotstories/economy/wires/9906/03/banks_meyer_wg/ WILLIAMSBURG, Va. (Reuters) - The U.S. banking industry is showing signs of strain, Federal Reserve Governor Laurence Meyer told an industry group on Thursday, as he said the Fed was stepping up its supervision of big banks.
"We are beginning to see slippage in important indicators of industry strength," he told a conference of state bank supervisors, noting that bad loans were on the rise for the first time since the end of the 1990-91 recession.
"Though still low by historical standards, the volume of non-performing assets increased last year for the first time since 1991 with the deterioration concentrated within commercial and industrial loans," Meyer said.
In addition, delinquencies on agricultural loans have risen because of extremely weak markets for many farm products, he added. Farmers have suffered in recent years because of ailing demand from crisis-stricken Asian nations and Russia that has driven commodity prices down.
As one of several agencies with regulatory authority over U.S. banking, the Fed has begun "sharpening its supervisory focus" over their increasingly complex operations to make sure the banking system is not placed at risk, Meyer said.
Fully 82 percent of the assets of the 50 largest bank holding companies are now held by 20 large banks, Meyer noted, which are more and more involved in activities like packaging their assets into securities and in derivatives dealing.
"We now give increased attention to roughly 20 U.S.-owned and another 10 foreign-owned banks," Meyer said, basically the biggest ones and those with the most complex domestic and international oversight structure....
Cavan Man
Email On Gold Loans From Chris
USAGOLD: Your response is teriffic!. I am humbled by the knowledge and intellect displayed at this forum. For those who are becoming frustrated and forlorn with regards to market direction I say; be extra patient and bide your time.
SteveH
$268.20
What is August gold now?
Cavan Man
The New Graphics
Just a thought but has anyone considered the impact of the new paper's graphics on the public psyche if indeed there is a dollar crisis or any other affecting the world's reserve currency? In my opinion the paper looks like monoploy money and the coinage looks like subway tokens. Is my perception off the mark?
Cavan Man
The New Graphics
Just a thought but has anyone considered the impact of the new paper's graphics on the public psyche if indeed there is a dollar crisis or any other affecting the world's reserve currency? In my opinion the paper looks like monoploy money and the coinage looks like subway tokens. Is my perception off the mark?
Richard, Oregon
I'm A Man Of Faith
I generally just sit back and listen to you "wiser than I" knights discuss the world of economics and just why things are happening the way they are. But as of late, I've heard an increasing number of round table participants worrying or complaining about the continued fall in the POG (price of gold) for what ever reason.

I just wanted to state that you are not alone. I believe everyone here is disappointed with the POG. We're all waiting for that illusive 'significant rise' and when we often feel/think it's just around the corner, but then bang, another bomb is dropped and the POG continues it's fall.

When I purchased my first gold, the seller told me to plan on a '3-5 year' turn. Now that's only been a year and a half ago, so I've got 1 � to 3 � years left. I planned for my holdings to supplement my retirement and that's not for at least ten years or so, so I think I'm ok, no matter what the POG is today.

I've disciplined my self to purchase an ounce or half or so, occasionally, just to increase my holdings, ever so slightly. I pick up a � the other day. The local guy said 'The markets really down. Selling is good and I'm buying all the way down.' I said 'Yep, that's how you make money'. He agreed. He buying all he can get, even though he's losing money on every coin he sells today.

Cheer up you who are not seeing the big picture. For me, I'm a man of faith and 'God is still on the throne.' Nothing's changed. Buy gold! As someone here 'wiser than I' said once, "Gold, created with the universe". It ain't over. Buy what you can! (If the POG was rising and rising, you'd be wondering why you didn't buy more when it was down. (Try dollar cost averaging for your gold.)
Gandalf the White
BIG SPARKS in my crystal ball !
It keeps telling me to hold on as "we ain't seen nuttin yet!" --- good for Gold, but the bottom may fall out of the balloon. -- Something is going to snap SOON. -- Do you all get the same feeling ? -- OK, what will it be? -- Speak to me MK, "Ari", the PhD of LA, PeterH and Aragorn III.
<;-)
something else
Currency exchange rates
Does anyone know of any websites that post the daily exchange rate for dollars & the yen?

Also on a side note. With the amount of US debt outstanding (reference the May newsletter), Fed Chairman Greenspan would not prove to popular should the interst rate be allowed to rise. Any thoughts?
Peter Asher
Steve
That whole speech reminds me of something I read recently about the media war coverage, "that journalists were commenting on everyone's perception of the events, rather than on the events themselves."

Also, It seems like they want market forces to somehow behave according to the desires of whoever makes the most persuasive lecture, rather than to behave according to what they are.-- Market forces!

"The name is not the thing"

P.S: posting problems tonight, much delay.
Tomcat
True Trader versus True Believer

This debate was posted on Kitco earlier today by farfel. Who do you think wins the debate?

farfel (@GOLDEN GLOVES...re: GOLD psychological BULL.) ID#341227:Copyright � 1999 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Golden Gloves said...

You speak of the gold market's ability to ignore bad news. It did not, in fact, ignore any of the items on your list. Each of them played a part in bringing gold down below $300 in the first place. Each of the items was already factored into the market. Accordingly, the gold market was not ignoring this information during the bounce, but rather had already factored those items into the price.

-----------------------
Farfel Says...

When the Swiss Gold Sale was announced originally, gold analysts noted that the Swiss people would have to vote on a new constitution allowing gold to be de-linked from the franc. Many pundits suggested the Swiss people would never vote in favor of this amendment. YET THEY DID...and upon the announcement gold DID NOT FALL. Gold ignored the NEW bad news regarding the Swiss popular vote.

When the the Bank of England's top dog initially proposed the IMF sellits gold, various gold analysts suggested it would never happen because the US would never approve such a measure. Yet, when Clinton, Rubin, and Gore abruptly announced ( within a one week period ) their desires to see the US sell its gold, the market essentially ignored their announcements. Gold ignored the NEW bad news indicating the American government's sudden keen interest in selling IMF gold.

When the Bank of Canada announced its most recent sale of gold, it was unexpected and left field in nature, given that the government had announced earlier a subsidization relief effort for the ailing gold mining industry. Yet, the gold market ignored the ensuing BOC gold sale bad news.

All these issues were left field events that goldbugs essentially shrugged off. You can argue that they were already factored into the gold price...but in reality, that was not the case.

-----------------

Golden Gloves says...

The violent reaction to the BOE news was due to the fact that it was a new piece of bad news... each time there has been a new piece of bad news, gold has reacted very decisively -- by going down.

Farfel says...

Again, see my previous paragraph plus my earlier post from yesterday. Gold's violent reaction downward was a case of market rigging by gold shorting institutions that had been alerted earlier of the announcement and proceeded to bombard the market with sell orders. Ask Bill Murphy
for further details.

Further evidence that gold is basing into a psychological bull market (albeit a broad ranged base ) is provided in the reactions of its complementary markets' inability to respond positively to good news.
DELL reports fantastic earnings ( 40% increase ) ...but the stock falls 30%. Several internet stocks have IPO's in the past month and only rise 30% vs. historical norm of 200%-300%

--------------------------

Golden Gloves says....

Mr. Fleckenstein doesn't help much by telling us that it will stop going down when it stops reacting badly to news. Tell us at what price this will happen Bill. Tell us when to buy.

He sounds a lot like Mr. Steven Kaplan. He has advised buying it all the way down.

Farfel says...

Why is Fleckenstein wrong to promote a pro-gold perspective in the market? Only through such promotion will people finally "get it" and move from ludicrously overpriced equities and bonds valued in (unofficially ) depreciating US dollars into a true flight to safety. But any transition from a bull to a bear and vice versa is usually not an overnight process and takes much time. The promotion of gold, even while it falls, is not wrong or invalid. The pro-gold voice should be heard, even as the market suggests it is wrong. As long as that voice is heard, the bear CAN
change to a bull. You advocate silencing it and almost demand goldbugs simply accept the New Era gospel that gold is effectively of no value.
You essentially say, "Roll over and die...or else join the gold shorting crowd." No gold bull can be erected on the basis of the extinction of goldbugs and a goldbug voice. For long term traders, the gold drop should not be too bothersome. So, I do not understand why you are so
upset by Fleckenstein's or Kaplan's perspectives?

------------------------------

Golden Gloves says...


Well yes, one day it will stop declining and will even move up for a while. If he keeps repeating this day after day, does that make him "right" when it finally happens?


Farfel says....

Yes, he will be RIGHT if the upspike in gold makes up for some 20 years of the metal's decline. Based upon market analysis and the huge uncoverable gold short position, there is every reason to believe that, absent government intervention, gold can climb to a new price that will make up for many years of decline.
-------------------------------

Golden Gloves says...

Finally, a point about this ongoing argument about manipulation. Manipulation won't work over a prolonged period of time, swimming against the fundamentals. If the shorts were truly WRONG then there would be a pack of buyers waiting for their every sale. Ain't happening.
The duration of the move down should tell you that there is much more than manipulation at work here.

Farfel says...


The shorts control the paper market. Their game is a paper game. If there is any event that compels huge purchases of metal AND THE PURCHASERS DEMAND DELIVERY, then the game is over for the shorts. They cannot deliver, plain and simple. So, as long as the paper markets are healthy ( and lately they are looking particularly sickly ) , then the shorts can manipulate their paper trades and avoid concretizing the paper into gold reality. A stock or bond market crash will end this paper game and compel a flight into real hard assets. If I believe that event MIGHT occur tomorrow, then why would I want to hold paper for so much as 24 hours? Remember, FIVE PER CENT of the population controls NINETY FIVE PER CENT of the wealth. I prefer to be in the five percent of the population that is swimming against the populist mania, especially since I know that when the hysterical crowd is racing for hard assets, the upspikes will be tremendous and ONE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GET POSSESSION OF THE DESIRED ASSET At ALL.

--------------------

Golden Gloves says....

The manipulation argument is very curious for another reason. Many gold bulls are, in effect, arguing that the government, cabal, whoever, is ALL POWERFUL. They can not be overcome by the fundamentals --yet. The argument continues that there will come a day when they are rendered POWERLESS -- forces will overwhelm them ( Y2K or otherwise ) which they are incapable of defending against. In other
words, an all or nothing analysis. ALL POWERFUL now...
POWERLESS later.

Of course, odds are that neither is the case.

Farfel says...

Prior to the crash of '29, some of the most powerful men in the nation called the shots. Later, those same powerful men were jumping out of windows to their death.

Powerful now, powerless tomorrow....more than likely, THAT is exactly how this corrupt manipulation of the markets will resolve itself. Former idols will be disparaged, ridiculed and extinguished...and those who
were out of favor raised in stature.

Only in America is such a revolution seen as "inconceivable." But America is no longer the country it once was. All evidence suggests an empire in decline, no different than Britain at the beginning of the century.
---------------------------

Golden Gloves says...

Just recognize it for what it is. one of the all time bear markets. it remains so until proven otherwise. the burden of proof is on the bulls. When it is finally back in the bull mode, it will be apparent to all. you won't have to call it a psychological bull market. and you will be able to make plenty of money playing that TREND. you don't have to be in ahead of time, absorbing all this pain... contrary to the prevailing analysis on KITCO.

Farfel says...

Perception is an interesting thing. You insist that we continue to recognize gold in a BEAR market mode. You are aghast at the idea of somebody like myself denying the existence of a gold bear any longer.

Well, I remain adamant that all indications are a notable change in goldbug psychology...a diminishing fear and self-assuredness in the validity of goldbug perception. It is a prolonged basing of a gold bull, but it is truly occurring....what I call a psychological gold bull.

Let me tell a little story....in creating the light bulb, Thomas Edison utilized a variety of experiments and failed 500 times before finally reaching his goal.

A journalist asked him, "Mr. Edison, how did it feel to fail 500 times on the way to achieving your incredible invention? Were you not immensely depressed and discouraged by the entire process?"

Edison responded, "Actually, I never saw it that way. As far as I am concerned, the invention of the light bulb was a 500 step process. Each step was absolutely necessary to reach the goal and I am proud of each and every step.

My point is this...it is all a matter of perception. I have long advocated a change in perception in the gold market and the dissemination of that perception to the media and public.

On the other hand, you, Mr. Golden Gloves, insist that goldbugs adhereto the Establishment's single-minded, unrelenting negative perception on the gold market.

Goldbugs are all Tom Edisons, who believe in the certain truth of their perceptions even as all those around them insist that it is invalid.

Of course, that is why they must be extinguished...but Truth will rise to the top and Truth will find its own bull market someday.

Thanks
Golden Truth
Farfel Kicked Golded Gloves BUTT!
Excellent debate Just call me a true believer also in the "Golden Light" that will shine from the tops of the hills. As "Edison" said i didn't fail 500 times when trying to invent the Light Bulb, it was a 500 hundred step process. I also agree with farfel about perception and i perceive we are at step number 499 of the next GOLDEN BULL. The Golden Light will also be very very BRIGHT! What an awesome sight for holders of GOLD it will be. How fearful for holders of Gold paper shorts as they go up in Flames from the intense burning Heat. Buy real physical GOLD before its to LATE!!! Golden Truth.
Peter Asher
Farful wins on this alone
<those same powerful men were jumping out of windows to their death.>>
Goldsun
Julia
We know two things about the future:
It won't be perfect.
It will happen in present time.
As a result, striving for perfection in physical preparation will probably prove counterproductive. Also, if our preparations for the future instill or reinforce a habit of placing our energy in the future, we will be less able to deal with the future when it happens, as it always does, in the present.
Goldsun
turbohawg
WorldNetDaily's Claire Wolfe
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_cwolfe/19990603_xccwo_getting_fr.shtmla can't miss ... a freedom article, not a gold article ... but ultimately, are they not one and the same ??
SteveH
August gold now...
$268.30....

11:30p EDT Thursday, June 3, 1999

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

A quick dispatch on the New York gold show -- that is,
the Northeast Investment in Mining Conference -- just
ended tonight at the Marriot Marquis hotel on Times
Square in New York.

The bad news is that observers said this was the least
well attended Northeast gold show in about five years,
which I suppose is only to be expected, given the
depressed condition of the precious metals markets. The
sinking price of gold, which took some bad knocks even
as we convened, bore heavily on the meeting. I counted
as participants only two major mining companies and two
widely recognized juniors -- the former being Harmony
and Durban Roodeport Deep, the latter being Bema Gold
and Campbell Resources.

While dozens of exploration and pre-production
companies were represented, GATA's delegation had to
wonder how many of them would still be around in even
six months without a substantial rebound in the POG.
The people from these companies were hard sells even
for GATA's $20 raffle tickets -- and we could hardly
blame them.

Enough of the bad news -- not that any of us needs to
hear it, but we have to be straight with you. This
remains a frightful struggle against long odds.

But GATA can do only what it can do and we do have some
good news:

* Several speakers at the conference yesterday and
today, including the conference's gracious organizers,
referred to GATA and urged support for us.

* A lawyer whose firm represents Goldman Sachs, the
investment banking company generally believed to be the
worst enemy of gold, attended the conference and was
keeping an eye on GATA.

* GATA Chairman Bill Murphy was interviewed at length
yesterday and today by reporters from some major news
organizations: Reuters, Bloomberg, Bridge News, Dow
Jones, and, most important, The Wall Street Journal.
Despite extensive publicity about GATA around the
world, like the story in the Sunday London Times two
weeks ago, we haven't yet cracked the New York
financial press. We hope that this will change shortly,
and we really don't care what they say about us as long
as they spell our name right. (No matter what is said
about us, our friends will know us and find us.)

* The senior partner of GATA's law firm, Berger &
Montague of Philadelphia -- Merrill G. Davidoff --
attended both days of the show and helped signify our
seriousness.

* We distributed hundreds of handbills and made some
promising international contacts for moral,
evidentiary, and financial support.

* It was especially valuable and, for me, touching that
several GATA supporters took time out from their jobs
and traveled long distances at their own expense to
help us staff our booth and carry our message to every
corner of the show. This gives us courage. We are
blessed to have such friends.

* And most important of all, there was GATA Chairman
Bill Murphy's 20-minute speech this afternoon. It was
the best attended and most anticipated event of the
conference. It was standing room only, since there were
more than 300 people in the hall already when Bill
began to speak. Bill quickly electrified the crowd by
recounting GATA's formation, purposes, progress, and
plans, and by making our appeal for support. I will
distribute his speech to you and post it at our
Internet site, www.gata.org, in a few days, once we all
get back home and settled and move the speech out of
one computer and into another.

So give me a couple of days to catch up on what
happened in the rest of the world while we were holed
up in New York. I hope to bring you more news soon. In
the meantime, please post and distribute this dispatch
as may seem useful to our cause.

As always, thanks for your interest.

CHRIS POWELL
Secretary, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
(GATAComm@aol.com)

-END-

http://www.cnnfn.com/markets/currencies/ is a site that has currency info.
SteveH
GATA love it!
1:45a Friday, June 4, 1999

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Here's one more indication that the Gold Anti-Trust
Action Committee is now fully mainstream.

The June issue of Mark Skousen's "Forecasts &
Strategies" newsletter, published today, endorses
GATA's analysis of the gold market and gives us a
good plug.

Skousen doesn't get our legal strategy quite right;
we're not planning necessarily to sue governments and
central banks, since they probably would be immune
to any lawsuit, but rather private interests -- investment
houses and bullion banks -- that are colluding to carry
out the desires of governments and central banks, but
for Skousen's purposes those details don't matter much;
what matters is the explanation for the strange action in
the price of gold.

Here's what Skousen writes:

"Oil has risen 50 percent to $18 a barrel this past
month, but gold has struggled. A big reason: the Bank
of England's unexpected announcement that it intends to
sell half its gold holdings through monthly auctions
beginning in August.

"It seems odd, almost conspiratorial, that a major
central bank would announce that it was selling gold in
the future. Why would they want lower prices for their
gold?

"It appears to be a deliberate act to keep down the
price of gold for political reasons. After all, prior
to the announcement, gold and gold stocks were moving
up rapidly, and Alan Greenspan and other central
bankers may have started to worry. According to my
sources, the short interest on gold is at an all-time
high, and a dramatic rise in the gold price would doom
major producers. In any case, the psychology of gold
remains highly negative given this official attack.

"Interestingly, an organization called the Gold
Antitrust Action Committee has just been formed to sue
various governments and central banks for manipulating
the price of gold. Lawyers have to be the most creative
people on earth. I'll keep you posted on further
developments."

You can check out Mark Skousen's "Forecasts &
Strategies" at www.forecasts-strategies.com.

CHRIS POWELL
Secretary, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

-END-
SteveH
August gold ....
http://www.usmint.gov/dollarcoin/winner.cfm$268.50, asking $268.60. I am asking $10K (whoops, couldn't resist), paper only.

New dollar coin gold color??

Cage Rattler
@something else - Currency exchange rates in realtime (also gold)
http://forex.freeservers.com/This site also has euro analysis (intraday to longer term) from a technical perspective by some extremely succesful traders.
Technician
Rusian crop failure?
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlAnyone hear rumblings of major Rusian drop failure? My Russian friends are reporting unprecdented cold Spring with very late plantings and replantings.Could explain the sudden interest in grains I have been observing. Remember last Russian crop failure? Gold benefited. $18 beans.
SteveH
NYTIMES says...
www.nytimes.comBy CRAIG R. WHITNEY

COLOGNE, Germany -- The leaders of 15 European countries decided Thursday to make the European Union a military power for the first time in its 42-year history, with command headquarters, staffs and forces of its own for peacekeeping and peacemaking missions in future crises like those in Kosovo or Bosnia.

Long an economic giant, the European Union Thursday has a common currency, the euro, in 11 countries. But when it comes to foreign and defense policy, Europe does not even have a telephone number, as Henry A. Kissinger sarcastically observed 25 years ago when he was Secretary of State.

All that will change by the end of next year, the 15 leaders vowed Thursday.

By late 2000, according to the plan announced at the European Union summit meeting here, a single foreign and security policy czar will speak for Europe and carry out the military will of European leaders.

The move will enable many of the members of NATO, as well as several European nations that are not in the alliance, to mount their own campaigns without America's might.

The European leaders declared:

"The union must have the capacity for autonomous action, backed up by credible military forces, the means to decide to use them, and a readiness to do so, in order to respond to international crises without prejudice to actions by NATO."

They echoed language first used by President Jacques Chirac of France and Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain six months ago after two crises in the Balkans showed how far Europe still had to go to be taken seriously as a military power, even on its own continent. Neither in Bosnia nor in Kosovo were European countries, whose total armed forces exceed those of the United States in size, able to project military power convincingly enough to halt the violence.

Thursday, all 15 leaders agreed to absorb the functions of the 10-nation Western European Union, a long-dormant European defense alliance founded a year before NATO in 1948. They said the Western European Union's 60,000-troop force, Eurocorps, would be put at the disposal of the new, more assertive Europe that is taking shape under the European Union. "In that event," they said, "the W.E.U. as an organization would have completed its purpose."

With Germany's 1990 unification acting as a spur to its neighbors to closer unity, the Treaty of European Union, negotiated at the end of 1991, committed the Europeans to a common currency and a common foreign and security policy and defense policy, building on the common market they created in 1957....
Golden Truth
Dow Up Again
They are buying the market again this morning. Gold down a buck as soon as market opens in New York???
Julia
Don't Worry? Be Happy?
Goldsun, Thank you for your good words. You seem to be addressing my questions to FOA on 5/21/99 that I re-posted yesterday, Julia (6/3/99; 6:37:41MDT - Msg ID:7069.)
And I seem to be having difficulty finding the answers I'm looking for to my questions, so I think that I'm not being clear in what it is I want to know, but your THOUGHTS are very much appreciated. Thanks. Julia

something else
SteveH and Cage Rattler
Thanks for the website links!
TownCrier
More Confusion Over State of Euro
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: The Real Rate of Return
MARKET REPORT(6/3/99): August gold opened $1.10 higher this morning and then
was promptly beat down by the dark side in a manner similar to what occurred two days
ago. The metal is straining to escape the clutches of the short sellers but, as we have said so
many times here, Main Street and Wall Street have different intentions with respect to the
yellow metal. Main Street wants to own it. Wall Street wants to abuse it and in the process
keep alive the highly lucrative and speculative gold-carry trade. Killing these rallies early in
the day is an attempt to keep public awareness of what's going in the gold market to a
minimum. You don't have the press knocking on the door and asking annoying questions
when it appears that gold is stuck in the doldrums. Let it start going up everyday and you
have to deal with querulous questions like --"What is happening with the dollar? Do you
foresee a long term downtrend with gold now in a bull market? Will this effect (God
forbid...)......the.....THE stock market?" The press knows that the public worldwide is
buying gold, but they choose to underplay the fact giving the dark side latitude to do what it
wants with this market. Acknowledging the demand would prompt the obvious: "Why is
the public so interested in gold?" So the dark side moves ruthlessly forward unencumbered
by reality. It would also most likely ignite even stronger demand as the momentum crowd
got wind of what was going on.

Let me bring what could develop as a source of problems for gold's tormentors in the near
future -- the real rate of return. The real rate is a simple calculation that is formulated like
this:

30 Yr T Bond rate - (inflation + taxes as a % of return) = Real Rate of
Return

This simple little formula is a major proposition for sophisticated money managers because
it tells you whether or you are getting a real return on your money or a fictitious nominal
return which is essentially meaningless or non-existent.

One year ago, your real rate of return looked like this (assuming a 40% tax bracket):

5% - (2.1% + 2 %) = .9%

In other words, you received real return of .9% on your hard earned money -- not bad
when compared to historical real rates of return.

Today, your real rate of return looks like this:

5% - (9.08% + 2%) = - 6.8%

That's right -- minus 6.8% when you factor in April's 9.08% Consumer Price Index
growth rate. Not good. The markets are waiting to see if the April numbers are for real and
not an aberration. Given the situation in oil, and because oil plays such a crucial role in both
the CPI and Producer Price Index, we do see the April inflation rate as an aberration but the
start of a new trend. When money managers around the world get out their slide rules and
make these calculations, money is likely to move where the real rate of return is better -- if
there are such places (and right now they are few and far between.) Still another argument
to go to gold.

----------

In gold market news this morning, London Reuters is reporting gold holding $3 above the
twenty year low of $263.85 for those of you who like your historical benchmarks clearly
delineated. `Gold looks set to consolidate in the mid $260's in the near term ahead of the
first UK auction on the 6th July - the calm before the storm,'' said one London dealer. He
didn't mention which way the storm was going to take gold. The Commitment of Traders
report will be released today after the COMEX close at which time we will have a clear idea
what's happened with the enormous short position in gold.

Bridge News reports in London that "The Bank of England (BOE) has published the results
of consultation conducted with London Bullion Market Association (LBMA) members
regarding the gold auctions it plans to begin Jly 6. 'Following the announcement May 7 of
plans to hold a series of gold auctions this financial year, the Bank launched a process of
consultation with members of the London Bullion Market Association on the practical
details of the auctions. This consultation exercise has now been completed,' the Bank said
in a statement.

Those of you who follow this report on a daily basis know that we question whether or not
these sales are nothing more than a bail out of gold loan counterparties on the ropes. Was
this meeting a discussion how to divvy up the gold?

Two other interesting nuggets dropped by Bridge News that fit nicely into the current
discussion on gold:

"Given the significant amounts of gold central banks have apparently lent into the market
there may be potential for a short squeeze situation to develop, Henry Bingham, president
of Van Eck Institutional Advisors, said. A fair amount of the gold that has been lent into the
market has been lent to producers, but there is also a significant amount lent to the carry
trade."

And....

"Central bank gold lending is increasing and will this year likely exceed the 4,300 tonnes
seen at the end of 1998, said Philip Klapwijk, managing director of Gold Fields Mineral
Services Ltd. However, Klapwijk dismissed speculation that central bank lending may be
as high as 6,000-10,000 tonnes, saying that such numbers were "fanciful." Gold Fields
Mineral Services expects that central bank gold sales will be lower than the 412 tonnes seen
in 1998, even including the recently announced UK Treasury gold sale plan."

That's it for today....

The featured article in this month's News & Views centers on government finance in an
article entitled "The Financial State of the Union." I'm sure it contains many
surprises for our readers. There is a great deal of difference between what our government
leaders are telling us and the reality with respect to the government's books. This issue is
one or our best and most informative. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call Marie at
1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly newsletter
-- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
Unemployment Falls to 4.2 Percent
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990604/economy_4.htmlEconomists were split on whether today's report will make the Fed more likely or less likely to start raising interest rates. Average hourly earnings rose by 3.6 percent in May over a year ago. Mining sector lost 7,000 jobs.
TownCrier
Dollar opens US largely steady, shrugs off jobs data
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990604/pn.html"The focus is squarely on negativity surrounding Europe," a trader said. "There seems to be a lot of infighting, and people are starting to talk about the remote possiblity that things are getting fragile and maybe the euro won't last."

Either way, gold wins big. Think about it...
ss of nep
COLEMAN - Committee of 300
Coleman publishes a newsletter. WIR
WIR has a web page
http://www.worldinreview.com/index.html

Coleman has written a report on Gold & Silver.

Julia
Questions, questions and more questions
FOA? ANOTHER? MK, Aragorn III? Ari? Peter? Steve? Towncrier? Gandalf? North of 49? Are there any Knights or Ladies out there willing to share their THOUGHTS?????.....

For the record, I believe that too much time spent worrying about what might happen in the future robs us of valuable energy to live life to it's fullest today. Asking questions and gathering information from people knowledgeable in world economics and history, in order to be prepared for a stormy, unfamiliar future, is not worrying. To have a careless, head-in-the-sand, happy-go-lucky, "if you just have faith" attitude about facing the future of our currency tanking for the first time in my lifetime, is not my style. I believe God is all powerful, all knowing and always present. Part of God's answers to prayer have always come to me through prayerful and purposeful questions to and answers from other people. I believe God made each of us to hold a piece of the puzzle and my life is always blessed when someone more versed than me takes the time to share their THOUGHTS with me along my life's journey. And in return I hope I have helped someone else along the way too.

So, to some, maybe my questions appear to be worrying. I intend them to lead me to (1) God's will for my life (2) Closer relationships to other people and (3) A better understanding of the ways of the world than I have now. Rest assured that I don't expect anyone to give me a road map with all the sights and stops along the way marked for me. I do expect to have a better understanding about the direction I want to take after our conversation.

Also, no one needs to sell me on gold. I am buying as it goes down. I am not worried about it . My reasons are with ANOTHER, FOA, Aragorn III, and others here whose reasons for buying gold don't go up and down with the price. Besides that, it seems to me to be the only underpriced investment on the market.

All this to ask questions of you.

What has happened to the people in other countries as they endured the devaluation of their currency. Do you see our experience being different just because we are The United States of America. In other words are there circumstances in our country that would minimize the effects or maybe even magnify them?

I think that Y2k and the devaluation of our money will be harder on the USA because we have had the means to become maxed out industrialized and computerized so we have further to fall. We don't have experience in living without the modernization of our lifestyle. My mother tells that she never knew there was a depression because they had everything they needed on their farm. Today there are fewer people, including me, that can say that in the USA.

Does a country just throw out their devalued currency and print new money? If so, what does one do now to prepare for that event?

In your THOUGHTS, is our position as world reserve currency an atom bomb for our country vs the type of disasters that other countries have experienced who don't hold that position in the world?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are facing a currency devaluation, won't that affect every aspect of our lives... not just financially? It seems only prudent that we know what life is like for the others in this world who have gone through a devaluation of their currency. The 1929 stock market crash was devastating but it didn't leave us without faith in our money too. What vehicle do you see us using for spending money when our current one tanks? Do you see people having to trade in their paper money for new paper money or is it that the devalued money will not buy as much as before and it is just a matter of time before it recovers. What was/is life like in the Asian countries before and then recovering from devaluation of their currency? Are they recovering as I read in the mainstream press?

I believe in order to be prepared , people have to know their own weaknesses and do what can be done to strengthen them. I feel quite vulnerable and dependent on our way of modern living.

Is being prepared for Y2k enough to prepare us for our currency tanking too? What do you think will happen to the people holding cash for y2k and our money is devalued?

I look forward to the THOUGHTS you have. Thank you.

Julia
TownCrier
Good stats in this one! - - Fed Has Nest Egg For Any Y2k Crisis
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ap/technology/story.html?s=v/ap/19990603/tc/y2k_fed_reserve_1.htmlFed has stockpiled enough paper for every American adult to withdraw $1,000 at year's end ($200 billion). For perspective, however, more than $2 trillion pass through the Fed's banking system each day.

Check out S.F. district pres. Perry's asinine statement:
"As an economist, I deal with probabilities all the time. I think the probabilities are very high that on Jan. 1, 2000, nothing very unusual is going to happen."

Duh...nice stretch! "As an outdoorsman, I deal with weather all the time. I think the weather next year will be 75, partly cloudy, with a chance of rain."
Golden Truth
Y2K Nestegg But Its The Goverments!
The Federal Goverment has a 200 BILLION$$$ nestegg ready to go for any Y2K problems real or imagined? Thats $1000 per every person in the U.S. Do you really think that after putting together that kind of cash they are going to let, the price of GOLD rise? This is exactly the the opposite of what they are going to prevent, a perfect example of market psycholgy manipulation. They know record amounts of GOLD are being purchased if anthing they will continue to HAMMER the price down so that most if not all people will lose money on their Insurance? stragegy and buy it back for less! They (Gov) have been playing this Game? for a lot longer than the average bear say 15 or so years. Then they will gloat and say "See i told you not to worry about our paper assets" The whole system is totally rigged always has been and always will be.If my calculations are correct and i checked them twice $200,000,000,000 dollars and GOLD at say 270/oz equals 23040 metric tonnes gold that is 9.2 years of GOLD production!! at 2500mt/year or 2.88 times as much GOLD as the USA claims to have on hand! Thats a lot of cash (Firepower) the thing that really hit me while doing this small calculation is that this has got to inflate the money supply. Or does it? i don't know how the system works exactly but common sense tells me it would. the numbers are here maybe someone else can elaborate on the money supply end of things. So for a quick recap $200,000,000,000 dollars at $270/oz would also equal 740,740,740.7 million oz's of GOLD. Look at the beauty of numubers the above amount all are 740 right to infinity and numbers NEVER LIE unless they are manipulated i rest my case! Golden Truth.
USAGOLD
Farfel...Plus a Thought on Shutting Down Markets
I want to once again commend you on your unflagging and formidable defense of the yellow metal. Your dichotomy between the paper trade and real gold market is something every gold advocate should try to understand completely. I will add this one comment to your work.

The concentration of economic power in fewer and fewer hands on Wall Street, and the unknowing abdication of that power by Main Street allows the operators in financial markets to wield nearly unlimited power in whatever way they choose. What chance does the physical gold owner have to run the price up when people like J Aron or Morgan Stanley can offset their physical dollar for dollar purchase, with a put option purchased at 10� or less on the dollar? Yet that is what is happening. The fact of that matter is that this building short position is little more than a pyramidding scheme to keep the real market from asserting itself, and the losses realized. Like all pyramidding schemes ultimately there is a day of reckoning where the real market must be satisfied. In this case, it could mean enormous losses, financial institution failure, general financial panic and massive inflationary bailouts -- as the gold market because of the gold carry-trade finds itself at the very epicenter of the derivative madness that has gripped financial markets.

I would also add to your analysis that though many jumped out windows in 1929, others went to jail including the president of National City Bank (the predecessor to Citibank) who was convicted of collusion and market rigging.

There's one more point I would like to slip in here that I've been meaning to get posted here and now seems like the appropriate time.

Those who think that what is going in the markets today with respect to market manipulation, rigging, collusion and the like is something new should read Ron Chernow's excellent account of the rise of "The House of Morgan." Reading how various Wall Street groups maneuvered against each other at the turn of the century also does damage to the monolitic conspiracy theories that crop from time to time at these FORA.

One piece of historical reality that sent a chill through me had to do with a panic that seized Wall Street in July 1914 associated with the fear of war in Europe. The New York stock exchange confronted with a flood of sell orders, simply shut down with the blessing of the Secretary of the Treasury and did not re-open until December -- six months later, and "normal trading" did not resume until the following Spring. In other words, those who viewed stocks as a proxy for cash in those days were disengaged from their assets for nearly a year. And it wasn't war that precipitated the event; it was the flood of sell orders.

Chernow relates the story of how a group of stockbrokers would gather on the street to trade stocks clandestinely. Called the "gutter market", the institution started with "four boys and a dog" presumably as couriers and was quickly closed down tby the New York Stock Exchange.

In other words if you owned stocks, you were locked in for the duration. Anyone who thinks that the New York Stock Exchange would not take similar actions today, sanctioned by the Federal government, do not fully understand the atavistic survival mentality of both the government and Wall Street financial institutions. If closing down the exchange means survival of the institutions and that the public takes the loss; then the public takes the loss. So be it. The clear message is that if you wish to diversify your assets into gold, you had better do it now. If there really is a panic in the stock market, you may be cut off from your funds and unable to protect your profits.

Diversification......The key in this bubble economy.
TownCrier
Heavy fighting in Kashmir
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_360000/360684.stmIndia and Pakistan have again been exchanging intense artillery fire in the disputed region of Kashmir.

I thought it was now high time to call some attention to this flare up.
Golden Truth
Right ON USA GOLD!
Now thats Truth in the Media!! Tell it like it is no more fluff and that everything will be fine, its such "B.S" Your article cuts right to the Bone. BRAVO!! and keep it coming it will be best for the heard to feel PAIN now for their very hearts may fail from the fear lurking around the corner? Golden Truth.
TownCrier
Greenspan's deputy resigns
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_360000/360479.stmAs the Committee's biggest "dove," her absence from the next FOMC meeting could tip the scales towards raising interest rates, a move that is dreaded by stock market investors around the world.
Peter Asher
Michael, Julia, Gandalf
Michael: Great Post!!

Julia: Got to do serious work today, will try to write tonight.

Gandalf: likewise
CoBra(too)
FED created bubble, bubble, toil and trouble
Couldn't resist to quote the reknowned and conservative analyst Ned Davis, from the respected research firm of same name.
"Some time ago I wrote in praise of the three Fed chairman - William McChesney Martin, Paul Volcker and Alan Greenspan. Subsequently I have cooled on AG, mostly due to his rate cut last October... the day before options expiration. I saw it to be an extremely manipulative effort to not only squeeze the shorts to keep the bubble from bursting, but, in fact, to dangerously use what he himself called "irrational exhuberance" stock market bubble to rescue the global economy. All of this may be worthy goals, but my belief is that by appearing to completely panic at the first sign of a stock market risk, AG was saying to all investors that risk would be very limited with this Fed, thus encouraging OBSCENE (my holler) speculation. The Fed to underscore its determination to grow the stock market bubble, later cut interest twice more with NO weakness in the U.S. economy, and TOILED to produce a money supply growth explosion at some of the highest rates in history..."

AG's actions led to overinvestment, overconsumption and overspeculation in derivatives, unparalleled in history, which almost caused global collapse. The Fed backing of the bubble now led to record negative savings and household debt relative to GNP. Also historical highs in margin debt (2% GNP or restated $173 billion), an annualized record trade deficit of $310 billion, which in anybody's book is unsustainable.
IMHO, from here on the PPT has to work overtime, including weekends and, of course, nights, where it is easiest to introduce the sinister outcomes of their toil.
The frustration of the advocates of truth and fair play is becoming seriously tested and I, for one, deeply detest these (c)overt actions of manipulating the collective intelligence and idea(l)s of all of us.
Also thank you MK for your open words @ the latest USAGOLD, which I will try to promote to European friends.

NORTH OF 49
Julia
First of all, I am astounded that you listed me among the giants in your opening sentence! I fear that I would be taxed to even walk in the shadow of the knowledge of these heavyweights. As I mentioned to Michael one time, "I feel like a guy that showed up at a black tie affair, wearing a pair of Levis", but I will attempt to impart my philosophy to a question or two of which you ask.

To begin with, let me say that I fully agree with your Spiritual take on our existance on this "third rock from the sun". This amazing environment that supports us cannot, IMHO be the result of simple evolution. It is much too organized for that. And further, in looking at ouselves, I am not ready to believe that I am 99,000th second cousin to pond scum. There just has to be more to it than that!!
I also believe that there is a natural order to things--all things. From tides, lunar cycles, seasons, life itself, to--yes, even the markets. In the latter catagory, I am not alone, as Welles Wilder, noted commodity analyst has spent most of his career enlarging this concept (www.deltasociety.com). I guess it is most commonly noted within our vernacular as "what goes around, comes around". The IMF, BIS, FED, bullion banks, whomever, it doesn't matter, can "tinker", but they can't reroute the future of a Natural Cycle. If there were ever any violaters of the concept that "History Repeats Itself", it's this lot!

In answer to your question of how life would be after the tanking of the US$, I am reminded of a story told to me by an acquaintance, that visited Disneyland some years ago. While sitting on a park bench, he noticed a gentleman dressed in a white maintenance uniform picking up pieces of paper using a stick with a nail protruding from one end of it. Apparently it was his break time, so he came over and sat down beside my friend and the two of them started up a conversation.

"Must be an interesting job, working here at Disneyland eh?"
my friend asked.
"Oh ya, I just love it here--it's just great!"
"Pretty exciting too I'll bet?"
"I'll say! I just can't wait to get to work in the morning, but I guess I'ld have to say it's not as exciting as my last job."
"Oh, really?" My friend asked. "What did you used to do?"
"Oh, I was one of those Air Traffic Controllers that thought they could push Ronnie around!"

Now, Julia, the point I am trying to make here, is that it is very possible that some dramatic changes are in store for us here, but instead of dwelling on the negative aspect of our outcome, who's to say that some distancing from our present situations might not be a bad thing? Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the principal of Abundance, the concentration on the Sourse and Supply rather than the form and effect?

Keep the faith my friend, because as history as proven, it is your best friend.

No49
TownCrier
Fifth Horseman rides upon the dusty plains...
London--Jun 4--1111 ET--OPEC oil output in May, excluding Iraq, was 23.45
million bpd, down 120,000 bpd from April production of 23.57 million bpd,
a Bridge News survey found. But total OPEC production for May was 26.09
million bpd, up from 26.02 million bpd in April, partly due to an increase
in Iraqi output Those figures show an improvement in OPEC's rate of
compliance in May with its pledged output cuts compared to April. By Alex
Lawler

Tokyo--Jun 4--0640 ET--Iraqi crude oil for July lifting are rolling into
Asia under the new round of the UN-sanctioned oil-for-food, enticing a
steady stream of buyers with its affordability, traders said. By Taizo
Hirose

Mexico City--Jun 3--1826 ET--Mexico's Energy Secretary Luis Tellez will
travel to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Friday to meet with his Saudi and Kuwaiti
counterparts, according to a secretariat press release. Last Friday,
Tellez said that the meeting will discuss the current situation of crude
oil prices as well as possibility of extending March's oil cutback
agreement beyond Apr 1, 2000.

New York--Jun 4--NYMEX energy futures rallied, buoyed by bullish news
of refinery outages and estimates of 89% OPEC compliance in May.
The market was supported by news that Equilon is planning to shut its
Anacortes, Washington refinery's 53,000 barrels-per-day catcracker for
approximately 2 weeks.
"Refinery problems
caught people by surprise," a broker said. "Gasoline made a nice pop back
up."

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
Chicken man
"A Very Delicate Time"
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990603/china_curr_1.html"I'm sorry but this a very delicate time" said Gramlich.....I wonder what is wrong?....sounds like a "danger-thin ice" warning......could the China move be part of it...? I think so.....here's my reasoning.....China is saying "we will buy all our outstanding "off-shore.. Hong Kong hot money till June 10th....after that it is not-redemable.....so all the yauns are inside China's border....no one can attack if there is nothing to attack....as for the Hong Kong $ it is on it's own......Hong Kong "conquered" due to curriency run.....as for the value of the yaun , it could be figured in taels of gold,and then reconverted to a dollar value....thus is gold went up in dollar terms the yaun would increase in value....good news for China...bad news for the US in cost of importing goods
How would China pay all these Yaun accounts off?....with US$ from their war chest of $130+ Bil of Fed notes...it gives China a "good" excuse to sell US paper....if the selling starts can it stop....yes it can, with the Fed at the ready with $200 Bil Y2K money.....IOU's for greenbacks,then trade the greenbacks for gold...remember the "last" one out of the $US is a rotten egg!......time to make a golden egg...?
TownCrier
Debtor countries must use IMF cash carefully-IMF
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990604/2q.htmlIMF pleas for collective action clauses in bond contracts which "stop individual bondholders from blocking much-needed rescheduling deals and removes the need for unanimous agreement on rescheduling debt payments."

Just keep 'em rolling...
I think the F in IMF now stands for Farce.
TownCrier
Camdessus wants early decision on IMF gold sales
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990604/yr.htmlAlthough U.S officials have been among the primary mouthpieces calling for IMF gold sales, its representative at the IMF cannot vote in favor of the idea unless the U.S. Congress gives the sales its nod of approval. Director Camdessus would like this matter resolved before the Farce er, Fund's annual meeting in September.
TownCrier
Remarks by Michel Camdessus, Managing Director IMF, at the Council on Foreign Relations
http://www.imf.org/external/np/speeches/1999/060499.HTMGlobal Financial Reform: The Evolving Agenda

[excerpt from end of speech. You can read it all at the link, but I don't know why you would want to...]

Before concluding, let me mention two further issues that will need to be on our minds in the next few months as we consider how to strengthen global financial stability and promote economic progress.

First, legitimate questions have been raised about the role of exchange rate arrangements in economic management and crisis situations. It has been striking that most countries in crisis over the past two years were operating some form of pegged arrangement or tightly managed float. We must consider carefully whether such arrangements, per se, are defective or whether they simply have a finite life appropriate to certain stages of development, at certain times and under certain conditions. Indeed it may be argued by some that the problems are primarily technical--reflecting poor composition, or too rigid adjustment mechanisms. In some quarters at least a preference is emerging in favor of regimes that are closer to one end or the other of the spectrum: free floats at one extreme, or currency boards at the other. But ultimately, the primary focus has to be on domestic economic policies which must support unwaveringly the regime of choice. These issues will be debated carefully by the Executive Board in the coming months.

In a related area, I see an increasing need for deepening the commitment to intensified cooperation among the leading industrial countries in the interests of balanced growth and international monetary stability. Increasingly we see the emergence of a tripolar system of currencies, reinforced by the recent launch of the euro, and yet the economic performance of the three currency areas remains quite unbalanced. Quite rightly, domestic concerns will remain uppermost in each country's decision-making, but, since decisions taken at home inevitably reverberate around the world, what we need is stronger cooperation between these three major currency zones, for they cannot ignore their responsibilities for maintaining the stability of the global monetary system.

Second, we must redouble our efforts to integrate into the globalized economy those developing countries that are not yet benefiting from globalization. Many obstacles stand in the way. One of the issues high on the agenda at present is an effort to strengthen the heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) Initiative. I am confident that, with many proposals having been put forward by the international community, we will soon see agreement on an enhanced initiative that will offer deeper relief to countries pursuing strong reform programs.

But we should not forget the cost element. The Fund is fully committed to this initiative--an initiative it took with its sister the World Bank--yet even under the existing level of debt relief, the Fund's contribution to the HIPC Initiative--which must rely importantly on contributions from members--is not yet fully financed. While some members have made substantial pledges, a shortfall still exists in what is needed to finance the Fund's contribution to the existing Initiative--and to keep ESAF operations running without interruption.

Among the financing options for these operations for the poorer countries, has been the proposal that the IMF should sell a small portion of its gold. I would hope to see a resolution of this question, together with the other financing issues related to the ESAF and the HIPC Initiative, ahead of the IMF Annual Meetings in the Fall. If a decision is taken to sell gold, we will make every effort to ensure that such sales are conducted with minimal disruption to the markets.

Even if this initiative is successful, it will remove only one obstacle to development for a limited number of countries. At one level, I am pleased by the desire that is coming from our membership to see a firm linkage between social policies and debt relief which certainly will contribute to alleviation of poverty. But broader efforts still are needed. The best antidote to poverty is sustainable high-quality growth: without that debt relief will be ineffective in the long-run, and any social progress will prove transient. Therefore we must provide the opportunity for the low income countries to realize export-oriented expansions. The industrial countries can play a part by liberalizing their trade regimes to allow broadly unrestrained access to the access of the poorest countries. Just as important, it is time now for the industrial countries to shake off the "aid fatigue" that has afflicted them for at least the past decade, and that has caused official development assistance (ODA) to fall to its lowest level relative to GDP in a generation. What the international community has learned over the period is that ODA is ineffective when it is not supported by sound policies. Rather than withdrawing assistance, let us find ways of encouraging good policies to promote growth in parallel with enhanced flows. And as we have so lamentably failed in fulfilling our pledge to get the 0.7 percent of world GDP allocated to ODA by the year 2000, may the leaders of the world, instead of undertaking new generous pledges, commit themselves to seriously review those pledges they have already undertaken on the occasion of previous world conferences.

These are just a few of the issues that stand out as we look forward to the next century. For the past two years, we have been preoccupied with the need to resolve crises and to build up the defenses of the international economy against further attacks of contagion. But now we have the opportunity to press ahead with longer-term changes to the system, including the task of making the benefits of globalization available to a much larger number of countries, including the poorer developing countries. Clearly we need a stable global economy for this to be carried forward, and the prospects are now much better than a few months ago. But we also need a high degree of commitment and cooperation within the international community. That too is within our reach.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 4--Aug gold was rangebound
in thin trading, settling down 40c at $267.2 per ounce.
Aug gold "saw yet again anther disappointing performance,"
said a trader. "Every uptick we see invites someone else to sell," he
said. "We've been seeing a pattern of making contract lows nearly on a
daily basis. There's been a tremendous downtrend." Aug hit a contract low
Thursday of $265.2.
Traders said Aug has good support at $265 and could continue to that
that level.
Gold may see as much as $3 short covering rallies, "but that will be
sold into," said a trader. Trader warned that sentiment remains negative
and suggested that gold could be due for a further slide. "We've got the
Bank of England gold sales to still deal with," he said. First sales are
set for Jul 6. He noted that gold prices have fallen $25 since the
announcement was made. "And there's more downside to be felt yet," he said.

[Bring it on!!]

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
PH in LA
Joke of the day.
Joke of the day! "MAKING SOMETHING FROM NOTHING"

Date: Fri Jun 04 1999 13:00
Jadedone (Compgeek) ID#254175:
Copyright � 1999 Jadedone/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
"...A real possibility of the (refinery) fires is that when crude was (at) rock bottom, on paper it would of been cost effective to buy gasoline, run it backwards through the refinery, and sell the crude (on the open market)."

Ya gotta wonder what makes a guy like this tick.

At least it shows why I hardly ever go over there even to read anymore.
TownCrier
U.S. CREDIT OUTLOOK--The U.S. Treasuries market just can't catch a break
Sentiment in the Treasuries Market remains "poor to awful."
An analyst said it would easily spook and trade off if someone said "Boo!" Now let's see... What would be a safe alternative to bonds?
TownCrier
U.S. CREDIT OUTLOOK--The U.S. Treasuries market just can't catch a break
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990604/8h.htmlOops, forgot to include the link. Check this one out for sure!!
TownCrier
Currency tea leaves...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990604/4o.htmlIMM currency futures end higher, except for yen
Technician
Gold's week 7-11 June:)
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlNever have I seen such an oversold market that has simply stopped going down. Nothing is for sure but this coming week should be a "smiley" one for the gold bugs. Off to Florida to bake in sun, wife's idea.
USAGOLD
Replies/Comments

To all: I always this table to have an international flavor. Seems we're getting there. Welcome all, from all corners of the golden globe.

HLime: I remember an old Ronald Reagan quote to the effect that the difference between a recession and a depression is when the guy down the street is out a job it's a recession, when I'm out a job its a depression. If this doesn't turn around, the mines will be closing down everywhere -- a depression for all but the Barrick's of the world who sold their production forward, borrowed against those forward sales, and contributed to the price decline which closed the mine in McGrath.

Technician: I agree with you on the Road to Serfdom by Hayek ( a good study) which essentially says that you can no more be a little bit socialist than you can be a little bit pregnant -- a certain amount of inevitablility enters the picture.

SteveH: It appears that Mr. Tietmeyer is getting a little tight about the euro but I am not so certain that it is Mr. Wim "Benign Neglect" Duisenberg, not the other members of the ECB board, who should be gagged. Wasn't Netherlands, Duisenberg's home country, a gold seller and a soft currency country? I don't know if Mr. Duisenberg brough such sentiments with him to the ECB but I'm beginning to wonder.

Julia: This is strictly my view but I do think it can be proven. In the second half of the Twentieth Century, devaluations have always been followed by what I would call an inflationary depression where you have rising prices, rising interest rates and other symptoms of inflation mixed with rising unemployment, bankruptcies, cratering equities markets, etc. Do you remember the old misery index -- the inflation rate and unemployment added together? That phrase was coined in the 1970s to describe a set of circumstances brought on by the devaluation of the U.S. $ (against gold) in the early 1970s. Similar devaluations in Malaysia, Mexico, Indonesia, South Korea, the Phillipines, Brazil and Argentina (against the dollar) wreaked similar havoc in those countries but to a greater degree than what happened in the United States in the 1970s. My view is that we will undergo a similar ordeal in the United States at some point in the future. The circumstances are similar in the United States to what they were in the contagion countries -- chronic trade deficits, budget deficits, improperly allocated credit , money printing -- a massive external debt with limited ability to export enough to pay off those loans. I don't need to tell you gold's role in such situations -- a quick scan through gold price charts after the devaluation in those various currencies tells its own story. Whenever I wonder about the effects of a devaluation on an economy, I simply go back and review what happened in the United States in the Seventies. That pretty much tells the story. What is particularly frightening about the possibility of something like this happening in the United States is that I doubt Japan or Europe will come running to our rescue with a bailout package the way we routinely send the IMF out to clean up messes and provide the means for bailing out theinternational banks, so I agree with you on that score as well. I know that this hasn't been short. Perhaps FOA or Another will have additional thoughts for you on this score. I hope so. I too would like to see how they might respond.
USAGOLD
Julia...
An additional thought: Japan, Europe and the Gulf could justifiably argue that they have already done what they can to bail out the United States since they hold such a large proportion of our external debt, so perhaps I was unfair in my earlier comment about what might happen if the U.S. were to get in deep trouble.
turbohawg
remember KYC ??
It's alive and well despite recent Congressional action. Went to my bank today to write a check on my brokerage acct like I do every now and then to get cash. It was not written for a particularly large amount (not that I could write a check for a particularly large amount anyway) ... the teller said she couldn't give it to me ... I thought that was odd since I'd done it before ... she said it was due to the balance in my bank acct. I told her I'd not only done it several times before but I usually get more than that ... and that the status of my bank acct was no different than it ever has been ... I use this acct only to get cash. She was pretty quiet. I said "something must have changed" ... asked her if this was due to the Know Your Customer rules ... she said "yeah, kinda". I said "I thought they were shot down". She said "yeah, they rely pretty heavy on it". Omnipotent govt in action.

... which seems to dovetail quite nicely with MK's earlier comments. Once could easily substitute the words 'cash' for stocks and 'bank' for exchange.

>In other words if you owned stocks, you were locked in for the duration. Anyone who thinks that the New York Stock Exchange would not take similar actions today, sanctioned by the Federal government, do not fully understand the atavistic survival mentality of both the government and Wall Street financial institutions. If closing down the exchange
means survival of the institutions and that the public takes the loss; then the public takes the loss. So be it. The clear message is that if you wish to diversify your assets into gold, you had better do it now. If there really is a panic in the stock market, you may be cut off from your funds and unable to protect your profits.<

Now as a result of this action by them, what (further) reaction do you think it will elicit by me ??
tlc
thank you FOA
You did help clarify the short gold positions thank you. I certainly appreciate your presence at this forum along with all the fine posters that contribute to my education.
Cavan Man
To Julia
Dear Lady of the Round Table; you are wiser than you know I'm sure and not a damsel in distress. I was counting out some French Francs tonight. I had two thoughts; first, this is REAL money and how I love the feel of it; second, my only regret in buying gold is that it costs so much. Why is gold so expensive?!

I understand why you are concerned. You are rightfully concerned for your safety both economic and otherwise. Much can and probably will go awry either socially or economically in this world of ours. I did not mention the political dimension because it is plain for all to see that our systems of government are failing us; failing us because of the accelerating weaknesses of our own humanity. We live in an age of iron ships and wooden men do we not? Murphy's Law certainly applies to all of us collectively today in social, economic and political contexts; whatever can go wrong will go wrong. You know all this and you are confident in your purchases of gold. One cannot be more prepared than you are. You have responded to all of the external circumstances haunting your and our existence intellectually by making preparations. You have prepared for the worst and are hoping for the best correct? So, my question to you is, why worry so? You have done your best. You are a good citizen.

Certainly, if you seek a better understanding about the reality of the world we live in you will find it here at this most excellent exchange. However, if not for this forum, a prudent person such as youself of course would ask, "What sayeth common sense?".

If you seek to understand God's will for your life you will not find it here; you will find it within yourself, in your heart. You will find what you seek only through intense and consistent prayer; that is the only way. I know this because several times, I have found it myself. Good luck to you....you're on the right track!
Cavan Man
To USAGOLD
Do you think we could all move somewhere Randian like and just shrug?

I must keep thanking you for your wisdom and understanding of world economics. You are right. The turning of the worm will be a protracted affair; perhaps a couple of years or more. Gold is freedom; if not in this market than in the next (black).
The Scot
TO HAVE AND TO HOLD TILL DEATH DO US PART
Julia,
Reading your post this eve has brought about thoughts new to me. Being new to this forum and a novice at gold ownership. I originally purchased my gold because I was convinced that by late December, I would be able to reap huge paper profits from my investment. But now, I am getting these new feelings . What would I do with all of that Monopoly money? I have grown tired of the game. In these golden years of life, I need nothing but love and contintment. Having the comfort of my yellow treasure, A loving family, a good wine, soft music and assurance for my God. It may not get any better than this. Thanks, The Scot
Cavan Man
For Golden Truth
For your consideration.....

"Liberty is so holy a thing, that God was forced to permit Evil, that it might exist."

Lord Acton
USAGOLD
Cavan Man...
Thank you for your kind comments. Please understand, I do not mean to portray the potential results of decay to be long or medium term only. The disease in my view is well advanced and could manifest itself at any moment without further warning. We just don't know. Let me be clear and unequivocal: The correction could come at any time -- next week for all I know. At the same time, I am grateful for any time we can get.
Cavan Man
Scot:
We enjoy the same; those of us not "so golden". Good thought.
USAGOLD
The Scot, Cavan Man....
Wonderful sentiments beautifully expressed. You humble this exalted table with your eloguence and civility.
Cavan Man
USAGOLD
You've been at this game a lot longer than I and others have. Speaking for myself only, I concede that you are also much brighter than myself (the proverbial "average bear"). I know that Y2K is only one very small reason to purchase gold. Perhaps you could list the many reasons to own gold for those looking at the comments here. I think a bullet point listing would suffice for all.
Peter Asher
Turbo
You said "on your brokerage account." Was that an account where the funds were not IN the same bank as the account you were writing the check on. If so, they may not have wanted to risk collecting from the account of a brokerage house. Who knows if it will be there on Monday.
Cavan Man
One For The Road....
"Better is a little with righteousness than large income with injustice"

PROVERBS 16.8
USAGOLD
Cavan Man...
Avoiding a discussion about the first part of your most recent post, let me say that we have Five Horsemen of the New Apocalypse so far:

1. Y2K
2. The overvalued stock market
3. The Asian contagion
4. Euro Introduction ( which I have not taken off the list)
5. Rising oil

I am now considering adding a sixth, and long time members of this table might consider that to be the heralding trumpet in a call to contest. Did I say the word, "Trumpet?" No not that. Please, not that. And this is not a call to contest. No need to worry, my fellow knights and ladies.... I have much to consider before identifying this sixth visage looming on the golden horizon.
THX-1138
More news on the Bilderberg Meeting in Portugal
http://www.the-news.net/
Here is a new article about the meeting along with a link to the current list of attendees.
Golden Truth
GOLD Article in the National Post. Pretty Good!
www.nationalpost.comVery interesting report a definite sign of things to come! First click on "Choose Box" down arrow, when sub menu pops up click on "INVESTING" about 3/4's of the way down. Its easy try it 3 out of the 4 people interviewed are starting to figure whats happening the 4th doesn't want to admit it and he's only 30% sure. Groovy BABY! Golden Truth
Golden Truth
Keep forgetting to include the http:// Sorry!
http://www.nationalpost.comTry This U.R.L For GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gandalf the White
Re: a few of Julia's questions


Julia (6/4/99; 9:26:29MDT - Msg ID:7142)
Questions, questions and more questions
FOA? ANOTHER? MK, Aragorn III? Ari? Peter? Steve? Towncrier? Gandalf? North of 49? Are there any Knights or Ladies out there willing to share their THOUGHTS?????.....
I believe God made each of us to hold a piece of the puzzle and my life is always blessed when someone more versed than me takes the time to share their THOUGHTS with me along my life's journey. All this to ask questions of you. I look forward to the THOUGHTS you have. Thank you.
Julia
----
Julia, I like No49, do thank you for including me in your illustrious group of posters at the FORUM to ask of such deep questions. I will attempt to share my piece of the puzzle as I have witnessed it. That being an answer to your following three questions.
----
"What has happened to the people in other countries as they endured the devaluation of their currency ?" --- "What was/is life like in the Asian countries before and then recovering from devaluation of their currency? --- Are they recovering as I read in the mainstream press?"

This is as I understood what I saw happen in Thailand, one of the first to have a currency crisis. You must realize that this was as seen through the eyes of a "farang" and hopefully there are others that can testify to the true impacts of the native Thai experiences.
---
Thailand was one of the economic "tigers" of SEAsia and foreign capital flowed into the land from all the major sources of the world the early 1990's. The SEC stock market was similar to the last few years of the DOW and reached over 1250 in 1995. New high-rise buildings were popping up like mushrooms in the spring, in the major cities of Thailand. New factories assembling electronics and high tech goods expanded the need for the labor force in the large cities. The minimum rate of pay for such workers was set by the Thai Gov. at 90 Baht per day. ( the work day being 10 hours per day and the work week
being six days per week, Sunday off ) The exchange rate on the Baht was very stable 25 Baht=a US$. Building of apartments and ocean resort condominiums went wild. The minimum wage rate increased in about three steps to over 135 Baht by 1995 as jobs were available and trained workers scarce. In 1995, evidence of the massive overbuilding was easily seen as high-rise buildings were not filled, and offers of almost free rental was seen in leasing of apartments in Bangkok. Resort condos started to become
vacant and not operated as they defaulted to the mortgage companies. Many of the mortgage and finance companies had little supervision controls on the terms of the loans and many had no collateral. These finance companies started failing and capital started leaving the SEC and the major banks to head out of the country. In June of 1996, the Thai CB froze the assets of all finance companies and banks and devalued the Baht. The Baht went from 25 to the US$, to over 50 to the US$ in a short period of time, before the IMF stepped in and said that it would provide assistance LOANS if certain policies would be implemented. The Thai CB and Gov. agreed and raised interest rates on bank savings accounts to over twenty percent to
hold the remaining the funds in place. The major banks were shown to be sound and allowed to open. Many of the small banks and mortgage companies were taken over by the CB and all non-producing assets liquidated by public auction. All near current mortgages of the mortgage and failed banks were lumped into large packages and offered for sale to foreign "bankers". GS was a major purchaser of such packages at about 10% of the value. How did this impact the common person on the street ? Many people lost their jobs! Many foreign companies closed their doors, not to return. Many projects were canceled. If the person was lucky to still have a job --- nothing changed. Except one thing ! All sales of foreign imported goods stopped completely. No one bought Washington apples as no one could afford those luxuries at the new price. The economy was completely internal !! The only way was for Thailand to "export" itself out of trouble by the sales of commodities. After a tough period of almost two years, things are better. The Baht has stabilized at about 37 Baht to the US$ and the SEC (stock market) has returned to about the 450 level from the bottom of about 250 late last year. BUT things are not like they were before and
it will be many years before the impact will be forgotten. --- One note -- Thai people wear Gold jewelry
(0.965 Au) and know the value of having the protection of Gold to help overcome currency glitches. You
may have also seen the work of one Buddhist Monk that organized donations from Thai's within the country and throughout the world to collect a tonne of Gold to present to the King for the use of national Bank.
<;-)
Peter Asher
Turbohawg
You mentioned awhile ago, you were having trouble getting on line from remote locations. We have had major problems with phone line interference knocking out all our online, E-Mail, and fax operations; 75% of the time. Tonight we were down from before 9 PM to after 2 AM. Sprint is still working on it.

At first, there was a lot of insistence that the provider's equipment was faulty, but the problem turned out to be unique to our four phone lines, three computer/modems and two ISP's no matter which combination we tried. Finally, while trying to upload line analysis data from his portable computer and having it crash, the line man had proof that "inaudible electronic noise" is intermittently occurring, which mucks up the constant back and forth signals that must stay clean for all these little blips to stay in touch with each other. Then they electronicly located an intermittent inteference section somewhere between here and the town 12 miles away. Now the have to find and fix it.

This apparently is a common problem on rural phone lines. They can be OK on voice carry but silently failing at Internet flows. There is an article in the current issue of Mother Earth News, on this.
Peter Asher
Michael
These coincidences keep occurring. This evening I was saying to Robin that it isn't a stock market crash that is going to set everyone scrambling madly for Gold. It's going to be when the -------. I wonder if it's your sixth horseman. Now that you've announced your considering announcing a "Sixth Horseman" contest, maybe I should wait for the event: Yes?
Cavan Man
USAGOLD
MK-I do not completely understand the significance of the Euro as it relates to the "Five Horseman". Could you explain or could a member of the forum take a stab at it?
Cavan Man
USAGOLD
MK-I do not completely understand the significance of the Euro as it relates to the "Five Horseman". Could you explain or could a member of the forum take a stab at it?
SteveH
Same facts; different conclusion
http://www.nationalpost.com/financialpost.asp?f=990604/2680440&s2=investing"...Movements in the price of bullion are crucial because they tend to lead commodities in general, explains Mr. Sokoloff, who runs a private forecasting firm called 13D Research Inc. out of Sun Valley, Idaho. Gold's moves, in turn, lead inflation and ultimately interest rates.

It looks to me that there's a pretty good chance that gold is breaking down here," he says. "I think it's signalling deflation...."

comments:

If physical gold were not in record-high demand and the paper-market wasn't a reflection of history's largest short position then I might agree. But his premise only would stand on water if gold were in a free market. Otherwise, gold is signalling a dollar devaluation. That is if you remove the influence of gold-leasing practices from the price of gold, you end up with the potential mother of all gold price rises. Unencumbered gold will likely rise swiftly and severely.

So, the theory that gold foretells the future direction of commodities is only good in an unmanipulated market, unless all other instances of gold foretelling future prices of commodities were also manipulated markets. As gold-leasing appears to be a recent phenomena, I believe that we are about to see a period of high inflation against other currencies with falling real-estate and automobile sales and prices of same (at least on the used market) and high unemployment with a further increase in bankruptcies while consumer debt is reduced and risky loans are written off. In other words, Japan with a twist (the twist being the mother of all currency devaluations and the rapid rise in the price of gold). In this scenario, the price of oil will rise dramatically and diesel-powered cars will once more see great demand. Peoples lives will be changed because easy credit will be shunned or avoided and Navy showers and neighborhood pot luck suppers, motorcycle parking spots and bicycle racks will become a new experience of gen-X (generation x).
Tomcat
Steve H: Inflation or Deflation? Perhaps both!

Steve, in the long run I, like you, see inflation coming. However, we might see deflation happening first with a inflationary collapse coming later. Here is an example of how that could occur.

Lets make a assumption that the Plunge Protection Team (PPT) musters up enough control to keep the bubble from bursting until Oct/Nov 99. Further, lets assume that only 20% of international industry will be behind in their y2k remediation. By Nov/Dec we will see international banking and industry moving into their contingency plans for y2k preparation. These months will be see a loss in investor confidence, whether justified or not.

Now, given this scenerio, lets say, Steve, that you are an international investor with hundreds of millions in foriegn stocks and bonds and foriegn currenency. Are you going to leave your money in corporate stocks and bonds? Will you be buying the Yen or the Euro when you find out that Japan and Europe are behind in remediation? Which exit doors will you choose?

Plus, some of your own investors are pulling out of your fund in a flight to quality. Small bank runs are beginning to start. Governments are printing money but their own people want $US, gold or silver instead! Given this, where will you find quality?

My take is that by Dec, fear will set in and there will be a flight from stocks and to silver, gold, AND US treasury notes. This is a run to the dollar, not from it. And, oddly enough, their are many dollars to run to! This, combined with falling profits, layoffs, and increasing inventories is deflationary.

If an international and US collapse occurs from all this then the US will have to print its way out of the problem and we could see massive inflation. But there could be six months of massive deflation first. What's your take on this, Steve?
FOA
SteveH (6/5/99; 5:37:09MDT - Msg ID:7186)
SteveH and ALL:

Steve, I believe you are following a chain of thought that leads to many answers about this gold market. Most everyone agrees, even more so today, that this is a "new gold market". It truly is unlike anything seen sense the dollar went off the standard in 71. Analysts have often used
"technical interpretation", "supply and demand" or "price inflation changes" to explain it's past value trends. Yet, during these twenty some years, each of these "methodologies" have been shown to work only "part of the time". Truly, a thinking person can plainly see that the correlation between the dollar price of gold and the amount of "dollar currency inflation" is far out of line.
Some other factor is clearly at play, yet few will accept any "premise" that could, potentially, destroy their "present paper gold portfolio". Many investors talk about the terrible "gold - carry trade", "CBs leasing gold", "bullion banks shorting gold", "mines selling gold forward", and they want it all to stop so gold can return to it's proper commodity price structure! Yet, their perception is as such that all of this will end in a blaze of "short squeeze fire" with their own paper gold investments intact. Yes their personal "gold options", "comex gold futures", "mining stocks" and "gold certificates" will soar in value as this entire industry "practice" melts before the eyes of a disbelieving "wall street"!

This form of "gold investing logic" was born during the recent history that allowed for a super - expanding world dollar reserve to exist along with a gold market of "static value". As few as five years ago, no one questioned how the equity value of practically every world asset could be
expanded far beyond their economic worth without the gold value reflecting that "asset inflation". Lost in the reasoning was the "common sense" conclusion that only an "expanding currency base" could represent these asset values beyond practical, useful, economic purpose. So, many gold
bugs just shrugged off this "extended conflict" and said "someday people are going to recognize it and buy gold".

The lost fact in all of this was that "people were buying gold" on a massive worldwide scale and the dollar price was not reflecting it. Current "gold investing logic" says that cannot happen because "there is a buyer and a seller" for every commodity and the price quickly reflects it. This is true, except that only gold has been warehoused as money, to an extent far beyond it's commodity use (thank Mr. Parks of FAME for pointing this out to the WGC). It is here, that we confront the reason for "why gold has not kept pace" these past years. And why this new market is coming to the end of it's "era".

Steve, I again thank you for reposting my writing. In those posts it was offered how the overall gold market ownership was exploded during these years as every entity embraced the concept of lending gold. Truly, they all saw the money to be made for themselves, but did not fully question the "motive" behind lending gold for almost "no return" by the lenders. Most just accepted the public pronouncement that the "CBs were at war with gold" or that they were "obtaining a return on assets". I think any person, with a brain in their head knew that no one in this world lends anything for free (without a motive), so lets not discuss that one. Also true, some of the CBs are at war with gold, but only "some of them"!

The Euro / faction only appeared to be "at war" as some of them sold gold. However, one must look at the facts behind this, before reaching a conclusion. Haruko Fukuda, World Gold Council chief executive, pointed out on Friday that only two EURO CBs had sold gold, Belgium and Holland. I (FOA) know that those sales were done in private with the gold going into "friendly hands". It was the US / IMF faction that proclaimed to the world that "all of Europe was
selling off their gold reserves" with the purpose to "unmoney gold". Nothing could have been further from the truth. A quick look at statistics as given by the WGC offers:

""In fact the NET amount of sales from the official sector in the last 10 years was only 312 tonnes. Hardly a
landslide," she (Haruko Fukuda) said."

Steve, that is only an average of 31 tonnes a year hitting
the streets. This very fact negates the analysis of many "gold thinkers", in that they say the "CBs are filling the gold consumption deficit. The current deficit is being filled buy investors selling physical gold and holding paper gold. This was recently pointed out by myself, using Another's Thoughts from long ago. It was scoffed at then, now this logic is coming into view.

If one looks, clearly the most gold being sold onto the market is coming from entities that occupy the US / IMF sphere. Australia, Argentina and Canada to name a few. Yet, even these sales are consumed into this massive "new market" with only the small amount mentioned above set free. This same faction is also the one that is flooding the world with "gold paper" that has little behind it except the "currency equity" of the issuer. Their idea of a backed short sale is the holding of "OTC options". Many of the sales over the last few years were little more than "naked" shorts.
In this light it should be easy to see that the world paper gold market is "degenerating in quality", to a point of no return. Small investors are clearly "at risk" from an impending destruction of the current "paper mechanism" that sets the world price of gold. In much the same way the US
stopped the function of the COMEX silver market (in the 80s), because of inability to deliver silver. So will it shut down the gold market. Let's face facts, it was never intended to deliver gold, rather it's purpose was to "bet" on and manage the direction of gold's price! It's an old function, of this short history of gold that worked well as long as investors wanted to expand holdings using paper. But, all eras come to an end and so does this one.

The world wanted cheaper gold to replace dollar reserves. Some entities have taken advantage of this and invested in gold marked with a new "genealogy", that of the Euro and the BIS. Others will have to fight the war on a different front. I suspect that many "IMF / Faction" paper gold holders will be in the US courts for years trying to pursue what never existed, real gold. We shall see.

More likely than not, the BOE sales will mark the end of the road for this current gold market. While their decision appears "foolish" in public, Another knows that these actions are not taken lightly. The currency creators of other nations (Canada?) must also be "feeling foolish" as they stare into future national bankruptcy from price inflation. An inflation brought about from backing a failing dollar by selling their peoples gold to other CBs. The citizens find them to be "smart operators" as the appearance is that of earning interest as gold falls in price. Few understand, as do the treasury officials, that the lower price of gold comes from hollow paper selling. Nor will
they equate $200 oil to a lack of national gold. Later, many investors will grasp why physical gold purchased anywhere from $400 down was a fantastic chance of a "century in nature". Seldom does such a major change take place in ones lifetime.

I ask, what comes first in creating dollar value, "confidence in the dollar" as many think or "confidence in the ability of the dollar to settle contracts"? The history of paper currencies shows that citizens will continue to use even worthless currencies as long as they will settle old contracts. Find your books and research it for yourself. Then ask the question, "in the near future, will I be
holding paper contracts in need of settlement in dollars"? In this light, one can see why the real gold market is cornered, the physical market, that is. You see, oil and gold mix well in these new troubled times.

Thank you for reading and discussing. FOA


Reference Link:
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/headlines/19990604/business/0928478578-0000020982.html

Peter Asher
Steve and Tom:
If I might add a word or two.

I see it as Tom depicts, up to <>

Even though there would be many dollars, STORING them will be the concern. The recessionary aspects of the business slowdown, would of course be deflationary, in the prices of CONSUMABLE products. However, Money will be primarily seeking a save haven, and in this new and different muck up of Y2K and 'Tulip time', paper storage of any kind will be an anathema. Money will seek those assets that hold their PHYSICAL value, not just their trade value.

So, while the general economy of goods and services crashes, liquidity would flow to the classic intangibles. These should experience definitive inflation, while the products of industry and labor go begging.

If I was that theoretical investor with hundreds of millions of dollars, I would be purchasing Timber tracts Maybe some carefully selected prime (not dependent on irrigation) farm land and --Gold.
Cavan Man
Question For Wise Minds
SteveH, FOA, Tomcat, Peter Asher et al:

I have two questions if anyone would like to help out....

1. At this point in time meaning 6-99, if you had the perfect opportunity to launch a new business , would you do it? Let me qualify "perfect"; excellent idea with modest cost of entry, say, $25K. I am really asking about timing because this is not the sort of idea that depends on economic turbulence. This friend of mine has been waiting for her chance (to go into business) for about ten years and thinks she finally has what she is looking for.

The second question is all mine.....

2. What percentages of physical gold and cash would you maintain at this time? Thanks you.
turbohawg
Peter
Thanks for your responses.

Your description of my banking/brokerage situation is accurate. I have no doubt that the reason you cited for their denial of my request is at least partly true. Fact is, if I was in their position I wouldn't have given it to me either !!! But they have been ... on multiple occasions ... and in greater amounts ... which suggests to me that they're now tightening up. I don't mean to make it sound any more serious than the inconvenience that it was ... I'm not losing any sleep ... I'll simply alter my preparations slightly so as to insure against getting caught without any access to my funds in the future.

My bank may have been overly lax to begin with. Since I've hardly used a bank at all for the last several years I have nothing to compare to. Last summer (prior to the near mkt crash) I walked into this same bank after having had my acct open for a relatively short time, an unfamiliar face, and requested a sizable loan to be paid back short term in one lump sum with funds that I knew I would be receiving. There was no request for any kind of proof that those funds would in fact be coming, nor any request for proof of income of any kind, nor (if I remember correctly) no proof of ID !!! As fast as this went through, I'm not sure she even ran a credit check on the name I gave her (which was my real name, of course) !!! Makes me wonder if it would be this easy again ... perhaps I'll go try it just for sh*ts and giggles.

Regarding ISP's, my frustration with the one I use has been offset only slightly by the fact that it travels with me. In considering your comments and having recently checked out many others and finding that they can't accomodate my needs, it may be that the technology and development behind it all is still too rudimentary at some levels to expect more.

Thanks again for your responses.
Gandalf the White
Here is the article FOA referred to --- note other items at the end.

Yahoo! Headlines Business

Friday June 4, 7:42 AM
Gold council says IMF sales plan will not work
MELBOURNE, June 4 - World Gold Council chief executive Haruko Fukuda said on Friday an International Monetary Fund plan to sell gold to help poor countries would not achieve its aim. Fukuda said the IMF was yet to finalise plans but its announcement earlier this year raised concerns about how much gold could be put into the market. "We have done a lot of research at the World Gold Council and it is quite clear this is not in the interests of these countries because many of these countries are gold producers and exporters," she told reporters at a briefing.
"If by the IMF's actions the gold price was to decline it actually does not help these countries because export earnings decline." IMF managing director Michel Camdessus said in April that the IMF planned to sell some of its 103 million ounce stockpile to pay for a programme of debt
relief to help poor countries. Some ministers have argued for sales of five million ounces, while others have pushed for sales of 10 million ounces or more. Fukuda was named in February as the new chief executive of the World Gold
Council which is funded by mining companies to promote gold. Fukuda said an increasing amount of the council's time was also taken up with liaising with central banks, which have put pressure on gold prices through the sale of reserves. She said there was unlikely to be further pressure on gold prices from countries who have linked their currencies to the euro. "There are only two European central banks that have sold gold, and they are not likely to sell any more, and they are Belgium and Holland," she said. "They did so because they needed to raise capital ahead of joining the euro." Fukuda said in the past 10 years gold sale by central banks in Australia, Argentina, Canada, Belgium and Holland had been partly offset by purchases by central banks in other nations. "In fact the net amount of sales from the official sector in the last 10 years was only 312 tonnes. Hardly a landslide," she said.
Category : Business
Previous Story: No reason for euro to fall further--Japan's Kuroda (Reuters)
Next Story: U.S. Jewish group to sue Bank Austria for $400 mln (Reuters)
----
<;-)
Gandalf the White
Cavan's Question
My advise to that friend that has waited years to invest the $25K is that it is a "franchise", it would be better to just burn the $25K and get some heat from the paper, as the other option will provide less. -- However, if this is a self run services type business, the results may be different. Now is not the time to think about jumping into a new adventure!
<;-)
SteveH
Cavan Man
I think a gold bullion and silver exchange shop might be a good idea but best to have a deep-pocket backer if people start buying or selling in ernest.
Peter Asher
Cavan Man
The big question is will the business remain viable during economic turbulence? We have been pondering this dilemma ourselves at this time. Obviously, Dot com endeavors are worthless if the net crashes, High-End design and construction will zero out, and even the ability to jump into general construction from a well equipped and technically expert position will find a very crowded pond to swim in.

It is said that during the Great Depression, Bars and movie houses did very well. People will always scrounge up something to blot out the reality for a while.

One thought we've had (which we're to remote for) is a small grocery store that could obtain most of it's inventory on a local or regional level, not being dependent on computer managed stock and shipping, or getting past Green Beret' warehouse guards

Since it's something specific that your friend is looking at, you need to envision how the customer base might be affected �������qqqqqqqqqqqq�xqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
USAGOLD
Gandalf...
In order to balance the sentence describing the World Gold Council as "funded by mining companies to promote gold," a sentence should be added after this:

"IMF managing director Michel Camdessus said in April that the IMF planned to sell some of its 103 million ounce
stockpile to pay for a programme of debt relief to help poor countries."

Which reads:

"The International Monetary Fund (IMF) was founded after World War II to promote fiat money and international socialism."

If you insist on shining the glaring light on one vested interest, it is only fair to shine it equally well on the opposing vested interest.
Peter Asher
Cavan Man
The big question is will the business remain viable during economic turbulence? We have been pondering this dilemma ourselves at this time. Obviously, Dot com endeavors are worthless if the net crashes, High-End design and construction will zero out, and even the ability to jump into general construction from a well equipped and technically expert position will find a very crowded pond to swim in.

It is said that during the Great Depression, Bars and movie houses did very well. People will always scrounge up something to blot out the reality for a while.

One thought we've had (which we're to remote for) is a small grocery store that could obtain most of it's inventory on a local or regional level, not being dependent on computer managed stock and shipping, or getting past Green Beret' warehouse guards

Since it's something specific that your friend is looking at, you need to envision how the customer base might be affected by the various scenarios discussed here. This mornings posts alone should be helpful.

*********************

I would only leave in the bank what I needed to pay bills, I'd keep enough cash for a couple of months life support purchases and if I had paid off my mortgage and completed my Y2Y, generator, wood stove ,fuel and firewood and food storage acquisitions, I'd put anything else in the mail to CPM.
Tomcat
Cavan Man

$25K is not a lot to start a business. Any business would have to be flexible and designed to make it through the turbulent times ahead. My suggestion, which would take less than $25K, would be a barter exchange. Current barter exchanges operate at a profit and you would be overwhelmed with business in either an inflationary or deflationary collapse.
Cavan Man
Peter Asher
Thanks. Would you pay off your mortgage if you had the cash today? Would or should that be a priority?
Cavan Man
USAGOLD
How do you really feel about the IMF? We should all be out playing golf!
Cavan Man
Peter Asher
I think Y2K is going to be more of a problem than most people think. You sould as if you are taking it more seriously than I am. I have the generator but not the wood stove. Ha! I bought a kerosene heater in lieu of the stove. Any other thoughts? Could it posssibly be that bad?
Cavan Man
Gandalf.....
Great humor and good common sense! Here's a question for you to ponder....Why do we gather at this forum and take the precautions we discuss? Are we more intelligent or more practical than the rest of the world or are we simply a support group for one another enjoying the company of others that see as we do?
Cavan Man
Another Question
Anyone want to take a crack at what to do with an IRA (currently in MM Treasuries) while we're on the general topic?
FOA
Time to go again.
Julia and ALL,
I have not forgotten our discussion from the other day. It will be pursued in time. As I am still
very busy, I offer what I can. thanks FOA
Peter Asher
Cavan Man, re' Golf
That's the best advice yet today. I'm going back out in the drizzle and finish building a deck, I'm working on a long winded answer to Julia but I'll finish it later.
Cavan Man
Peter Asher
Terribly hot and humid here albeit typical; I'm having a pint while watching the girls wash my car!
Aristotle
A word or two for Julia
It looks like you've received good responses to your set of questions and concerns, but I didn't see that anyone has yet addressed these question of yours:

<"Does a country just throw out their devalued currency and print new money?

"In your THOUGHTS, is our position as world reserve currency an atom bomb for our country vs the type of disasters that other countries have experienced who don't hold that position in the world?">

The answer to the first question is "No." The currency remains in use, but with a diminished purchasing power. Any cash savings you has is thereby eroded, even though the numbers in the account remain the same. The difference is felt when you go to spend your savings. The world would price its exports to Amereica accordingly, and you would therefore see prices of EVERYTHING eventually rise. Because workers are the furthest down the economic "foodchain," they would be the last to see their salaries adjusted upward to reflect the devalued currency. As a result, they might have to rely heavily upon savings...which has lost its buying power! By having your savings in Gold, that problem is avoided.

Let's take a look at a brief comment from an article that SteveH posted two weeks ago by Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

"...Asians, who had been net sellers [of Gold] last year, have begun buying again."

They weren't selling Gold in the typical Western way of thinking about it (which would be to sell for a profit due to its rise in price from the local currency devaluation that swept the reagion.) No, they weren't "selling" Gold, but rather SPENDING their Gold savings as necessary to meet their needs. And you can see now that many price and salary adjustments have worked their way through the "foodchain," the Asian working are buying (which means SAVING) Gold again.

Let's also take another look at FOA's recent remarks, which fit in beautifully here:

holding paper contracts in need of settlement in dollars"?>

You may currently have contracts obligating you to deliver dollars at future intervals. A home loan for example. Or rent. In the example of rent, even though the dollar has devalued by let's say 50%, your rent won't double until your landlord can modify the rent agreement. However, countries exporting goods to the US would immediately double their prices (as it would be done for them on the foreign exchange markets during the proper exchange rate computations.) Your salary at work won't increase until your employer doubles the price of his products in order to pass these increased import costs along to the customers. As you are both a worker AND a customer, you can see how a certain gridlock can seize the system. Gold savings is the ultimate lubricant. In a sense, through Gold you help to save yourself AND save the world...some jobs simply won't exist unless there is demand for their product, often manifested in the presence of discretionary income or savings of others.

In regard to your second question, "Yes!" The devaluations experienced by other countries have come about when the supply of currency created becomes factored into prices and exchange rates after a period of complacency by the markets that didn't allow for a continuous slow evolution of price adjustments. Like pressures that build up in a geologic fault, one day it just suddenly gives--snap! You can easily convince yourself that in the unique circumstance of being the world reserve currency all these years, there is a VAST supply of dollars and past complacency pressuring the system for a very substantial *snap!* the likes of which has never been demonstrated by the devaluation of a currency within a banana republic. As in the preceeding paragraph, we will look to any citizens of the world that maintain viable discretionary income and savings with which to lubricate our ensuing economic gridlock. History books may some day be commending the European Monetary Union for having the presence of mind to forecast these events, and to provide for an escape route via the euro as an independent currency alternative (to the dollar) that will reveal the preeminence of Gold in the monetary systems of the world. I say "reveal" and not "reestablish" simply because the Gold has never left the stage. It has been standing quitely behind several props in this earthly economics play as we hurtle through space with an obscure script and owners manual.

Again, Gold never left the scene. Keep working for it--you'll need it all-too-soon for the exact same reasons that you need money. ---Aristotle
Cavan Man
Aristotle
Could you please elaborate on your remarks about the EMU and the Euro. That is the piece of the puzzle I cannot fit. If you don't mind...please.
THX-1138
Some personal thoughts
It hit me a couple of days ago. I keep hearing from Pastors and other Godly men and women that they see a dark cloud hanging over America. Well I think that cloud is the spirit of GREED. (6th Horseman?. Everyone thinks they will be rich in the future just by investing in the stockmarket. They have total control over their lives.

HA! you can't have control over your own life if the market is rigged.

The only way to bring America back to the Godly way our forefathers wanted isn't through the government. Everything in that direction has been stacked against us. The only way for people to return to God is if they lose everything they earned and saved. When the stock market crashes you will see one of the largest religious revivals ever seen in America as people with no hope turn to God for help.

The reason I am trying to accumulate as much Gold as I can is in order to help my family when they lose all the money they have invested. My Father thinks I am nuts and is worried that I am losing all that interest I could be earning in the stockmarket. I look at my little hoard of Gold as his salvation from poverty.

Just had to get this off my chest.
Thanks,
THX
Gandalf the White
Quick replies, and then to work!
USAGOLD -- Yes, even the WGC does not set the world straight on the IMF as you do !!! I only setforth that posting as it was in part, from what FOA was quoting.
I too feel that the IMF will fall during the forthcoming dark battle.

Caven Man -- I truly feel that we gather here at the FORUM among these Knights and Ladies of the Tableround as we were destined to participate in the learning experience setforth by our Host, MK. -- What is it that you find here that is not found elsewhere ? --- THE answer is TRUTH, kindness and civility!!! -- I have surfed the web for long periods and stopped a number of times in search of what this FORUM has. I have found my home. Please jump in all you "lurkers" and express your doubts, questions, and comments. Like I tell my "students", "There is no such thing as a dumb question ! -- Only dumb answers." So now you all see why I am quiet much of the time.
<;-)
Cavan Man
Gandalf
This is my home also. I happen to like the host although we have never met. Do you ever ask yourself the question; what if I am wrong? By the way, do you know what "IMHO" means speaking of stupid questions? Signed....the student
Cavan Man
THX-1138
The pursuit of money......it is ruining our culture from the top down and bottom up. We shall see if you are right. I think you are. It is time we all learned a lesson. If so, the medicine will be strong but hopefully, we will find the cure for what ails us. Didn't Santayana say something like the third millenium will be religious or it will not be? Help me out there with this fellow Knights and Ladies.
Gandalf the White
easy answers
Cavan Man --- Took me a while to pickup on the abbreviations used in cyberspace to save time and save the ones that have a hard time spelling the "King's Angrit" !
IMHO mean "In My Humble Opinion"
BTW, (By The Way), variations of that are IMNSHO which adds "Not SO"-- but we will never see that use on this FORUM.
CoBra(too)
(No Subject)
Lot's of issues raised by FOA - in answer to Steve H. - I am still at a loss, even if do agree mostly with FOA's conclusions, there are still some deductions, which are either not totally coherent or do need more explanations.
I agree on the difference of paper gold and physical bullion markets, but when the whole shebang of derivative, forward and carry trade in gold took hold, there have been the CB's lending or leasing to bullion banks-we all know who they are-, who in turn sold the physical to the market in order to generate cheap $'s to lend to hedge funds as well as producers. IMHO, it is the bullion banks, which guaranteed to return the physical asset (AU) to the CB's and that is where the systemic risk is located.
I can't care less about the wisdom of Barrick or some of the Aussie hedgers, except being detrimental to their own demise. What I'm more interested in is the fact, that most CB's in the gold lending/leasing business are awaking to the fact that their gold is effectively sold and there may be no way to recuperate it at agreed terms, notwithstanding the fact that their only hard currency asset was devalued at least 30 to 40% in no time -the meagre interest they have recouped in the few years of leasing may have outstripped the storage costs but in no way makes up for the massive devaluation of their only true currency reserve - another euphemism for new technocrat's paradigm, or is it imbeciles?

Anyway, in view of the (mostly speculative, sorry derivative carry trade shorts in AU), the generally accepted size being a whopping 14.000 tons of gold shorts in the "paper gold" market, while the physical demand is booming, growing exponentially since years (while production is falling for the first time in years),it is only vis a vis the US$ that gold is marking new lows, the POG is up vs all other currencies!).
The fundamental problem as Paul Volcker, Dr Yen et al. have expressed openly is the dependency on the only global reserve currency - THE US (credit bubble, stock market ...) $ - , to prolong the (virtual) concept(-ion) of an ever-expanding economy of the new era.
In this sense some of the BC's seem at war with gold. It does seem to be a losing proposition, since most of the aledged BC sellers probably will wake up to the fact, that they don't have any AU left, which would be available in unencumbered status.
Yes, I agree - make you some gold - but also keep in mind the game is played by heavy-weights, who will not surrender easily -, though they've forfeited a lot of the $-future via expanding the credit bubble aggressively.
Enjoy your weekend....
Aristotle
Mortgages
Cavan Man, you asked, "Would you pay off your mortgage if you had the cash today? Would or should that be a priority?"

I recently had this same topic of discussion with a friend, and this is what I told him.
I don't feel that would be the most prudent course of action. (Perhaps you, Cavan Man, have already come to that conclusion if you mustered the patience to read through my typo-ridden response to Julia.) Obviously, because we can't predict future events with absolute certainty, it is prudent to pursue a course that capitalizes on your foresight of the most likely outcome, but also leaves you nimble enough to deal with something you don't expect.

By sinking all of your monetary savings into your home mortgage, you give up a lot of flexibility. The dollar is far more likely to tank than to get significantly stronger. By taking out a mortgage, whether you view it this way or not, you are effectively "shorting" the dollar. That is, you are selling your dollar-denominated productivity at the time the mortgage is written, to be "covered" (bought back) with your future productivity denominated in perhaps cheaper dollars.

If you are of the mind that dollars, as a monetary asset, will be getting even cheaper, don't be so quick to close out this short position. Let it ride and make the payments as needed. But don't squander your available savings in the meanwhile on something like a trip to Hawaii. In that example, it won't be there to redeem as needed for future payment obligations should a problem develop with your personal productivity/earning power. Gold is a safe and flexible asset class that eliminates a number of your financial uncertainties. Flexibility is vital. If you paid off your motgage, and some situation were to develop in which you needed cash, you would find it more difficult to liquidate a portion of your house to raise this money than you would to sell/spend some of your Gold. Further, if the dollar tanks, the higher(!) interest rate on any new home equity loan you might seek would probably be difficult to deal with. Meanwhile, the dollar/Gold exchange rate would soar, and a small amount of Gold savings could be used to cover old contract obligations (such as existing loan payments) or make the needed acquisition of goods with its purchasing power that wouldn't go south with that of the dollar.

In summary, my friend saw the prudence in this approach under the existing economic environment: to sit on his mortgage, making the minimum payments necessary to service the debt. Extra earnings would be saved, some as cash but most as Gold. If the bank moves to increase the interest rate on his variable-rate loan by some onerous amount (like we see in countries that experience devaluation of their currency), he would at that time, and only at that time, consider paying down as much principle as possible. I guess if you have a fixed interest rate, you might as well ride that particular "dollar-short" all the way down. Suffice to say, lenders don't like devaluations as much as borrowers do. But as a borrower, your key question must be, "Can you ensure a future income stream?" Because even with cheap dollars, and an entry-level position as a store clerk paying $40 per hour, it doesn't do you any good if you are completely out of work and out of Gold (now priced MUCH higher!). How would you service your debt? I hope this has been helpful.

As I said to Julia, a person needs Gold for the exact same reason that a person needs money. It's what it is! ---Aristotle
Cavan Man
Gandalf & Aristotle
To Gandalf....thanks! To Aristotle.....I have the same opinion; just looking for affirmation. I could not have expressed my (our) rationale so eloquently.
Aristotle
Two items
CoBra(too), I don't believe I have ever had the pleasure of exchanging words with you in the past. It is long overdue. "Greetings! I'm glad you have joined our good company."

Cavan Man, I didn't see your EMU and euro question to me until after I posted that piece on mortgages. I'll toss something together in a moment...
CoBra(too)
The question ....
Sorry - I seem to get carried away with my own answers...or is it questioning my own answers...

FOA - If the CB's and producers leased or forwarded gold - as I understand via bullion banks to counterparties -it would, probably not take much (AU) in terms of the first default of these counterparties (LTCM-?, why else would it be a systemic risk - except all other delta option et al derivative instruments invested in Russian bonds to exaggerate interest difference - just kidding???)- to be unable to cover -at all!
Gold, as it seems has mostly found private buyers, who increasingly feel the pressure of having to "compete" with the US$. A luxury no one wants to repeat from here on! Not even the euro, which may be (have been)the catalyst, next to a single SE-Asian currency to question the supremacy of reprintable paper $ as sole reserve currency.

Again answering my own questions - sorry - unintended - Pls
comment! Regards CB(too)


Buena Fe
LUST!!!!!
http://www.bloomberg.com/bbn/topsum.html?s=e7cf922636569fe39db7943c0d3c79f0Friends,
The IMF/US dollar financial managers/backers LUST for one thing more than anything else! Confidence in their precious (sik!) paper, as FOA and others have previously commented. When that confidence is truly threatened they (the PPT crowd) will stop at nothing to keep the ship afloat. But they are only men and women like us, not "gods", so it (confidence) will come to an end. Maybe sooner than we think.

I agree with the wise ones of this forum. BUY PHYSICAL AU!
Paper means/holds nothing.

Keep Well!!

PS If you can, look at a very long term (back to 1979 at least) chart of the US-30YR T-Bond. We appear to be hovering just above the long-term support trend line. When (not if) this is broken LOOK OUT BELOW!!! And LOOK UP FOR AU!
Aristotle
Reply to Cavan Man
"Aristotle, could you please elaborate on your remarks about the EMU and the Euro. That is the piece of the puzzle I cannot fit. If you don't mind...please."

At the moment, time has grown short for me. I had promised a friend I would try to wrap up some paperwork on a project today, and that awaits my further attention. So finding myself short of time, I realize that your question is HUGE! I wish you had been more specific when you requested elaboration. If I may be so bold as to guess where the trouble spot lies, I will offer this short answer. If I have mis-guessed, let me know and will target that area when time allows.

How will the EMU and euro help "save the world," so to speak? We must revisit the economic gridlock that develops when money goes bad. There is a vicious circle when the workers that fill a demand are also the customers that create the demand in a closed (self contained) system. If you have no money and no income to generate demand for a product, such as cookware, or portable radios, the company certainly won't be hiring you or anyone else to manufacture such items that can't be bought. Either everyone works and consumes, or nobody works and consumes. Quickly, let's revisit my key example to Julia:

<"...In the example of rent, even though the dollar has devalued by let's say 50%, your rent won't double until your landlord can modify the rent agreement. However, countries exporting goods to the US would immediately double their prices (as it would be done for them on the foreign exchange markets during the proper exchange rate computations.) Your salary at work won't increase until your employer doubles the price of his products in order to pass these increased import costs along to the customers. As you are both a worker AND a customer, you can see how a certain gridlock can seize the system. Gold savings is the ultimate lubricant. In a sense, through Gold you help to save yourself AND save the world...some jobs simply won't exist unless there is demand for their product, often manifested in the presence of discretionary income or savings of others.">

To better see how the EMU and euro will save the world from gridlock, use my old standby trick of simply thinking of countries as Big People. If we have some people that don't go down with the ship--meaning, that they use money that functions independently of the dollar--they will remain as a viable entity to help relubricate the cogs and gears of an otherwise seized up global economic machine.
The euro was created to be specifically self-sustaining and independent of other national currencies. Its value will be held in its ability to purchase Gold and to settle contracts.

America has a choice to either put up protectionist walls and create a closed system where we only trade goods and services internally with our tree-bark money (as in the Marco Polo visit to the Great Khan), or else we accept the bitter pill of our cumulative past monetary mismanagemant and look to those remaining viable parts of the world (non-EMU/dollar nations) to grease our wheels. ---Aristotle
JCTex
Gandalf The White
I absolutely second the motion: "learning experience setforth by our Host, MK. -- What is it that you find here that is not found elsewhere ? --- THE answer is TRUTH, kindness and civility!!! " I would also add a person can get quite an education on this site. I, for one, am very grateful for all of the above.
CoBra(too)
@Aristotle
Sir Aristotle,
Thank you for recognising a humble newbee on the internet and the forums of real value, which I seem to luckily have stumbled upon early.
After some consideration on the available gold forums I have taken a chance to jump into the IMHO, most sophisticated round table of honoured knights of the golden grail and end up feeling mostly inadequate in articulating my beliefs and fears (probably) in such a knowledgeable and noble place.
IMHO-in the long run the fundamental economics of demand/
supply will not be controlled by PPT - it will be controlled
by us - the market (participants).
Take care and thank you for your consideration
C.B.(too),
Cavan Man
Euro
Aristotle, My heretofore perspective on the Euro was/is tha t it simply is a new currency created out of the need to have one because of the EMU. With a single currency and economic union, Europe becomes a much bigger player; probably the upside looks better this way for growth and prosperity. Souns like there is another agenda I am not aware of. That is the reason I ask the question.
USAGOLD
Comments/Replies/Requests
Gandalf...I wanted to thank of your description of the situation in Thailand prior to and just after The Contagion ripped through that unfortunate country. I can remember reading a National Geographic on Malaysia just before the The Contagion hit there. NG featured the twin towers in Kuala Lampur, the tallest buildings in the world. I thought to myself "Why are they building skyscrapers to the sky in a country where most of the fields are still plowed by oxen?" It was an obvious incongruity. It was only later that I found the reasons why. Now those buildings too remain an empty monument to greed and stupidity and the people remain impoverished. I've handled baht chain as a curiosity back in my youth...It is a kind of currency with each link of standard weight and fineness. Jewlelry in much of the east is really currency. When gold's detractors point disparagingly to the demand for gold jewelry as the mainstay of the market -- and thereby denigrate it as money -- they show their ignorance about gold as money in the East. Thanks Gandalf -- a great post.

P.S. Don't get me started on the IMF. I was just registering my usual complaint about the press� anti gold bias more than anything else.

Cavan Man: The significance of the euro? Up until its introduction, there was no paper competitor in the treasuries of the world for the dollar. Now there is. Though it is off to a rocky start, I do not think it will continue to be rocky. Now the dollar is the best of a bad lot. If the current inflation rates continue (based on oil), the real rate of return on the dollar will collapse and we will have a flip flop. I think the euro could be the beneficiary. At the same time, Peter Asher's recent post on the subject got my attention. There is much to what he says. I need to consider his post. And Peter, by the way....

Peter....We are a ways from a the sixth...........As you can see the Fifth is beginning to wreak the havoc I had anticipated. Number five could be a major problem for the paper money crowd. The Gulf has effectively devalued the dollar. We just don't know it yet.

Tomcat...Y2K is the wild card in the deck -- and those playing this poker game had better not forget its presence. Please keep us informed on the most important aspects of the bug's growth and infection of our economic system, as you are quintessentially qualified to separate the wheat from the chaff to our collective benefits. So, good sir, what is the latest on this issue? I know you're holding out on us.

FOA...Do we know how much of the gold carry trade has gone into U.S. Treasuries? I don't think there is a figure available but I wonder if you have heard anything. Do you think that the British sale might be a call on their gold reserve resulting from a counter-party having gone belly-up? (sorry for the crude reference) And if so, do you believe other central banks could be similarly burdened? What I mean is they have to bail out the counter party to save their own banking system. Please answer at your leisure as you know you have much to deal with, but I think you see I do not ask this casually.

Thank you for your on-going presence here, FOA. I am sure that you see how much the Table Round appreciates your regular visits.

Turbo...I wanted to say that we have had many reports similar to the one you reported here. I think that the employees at the banks don't have a clue what they are supposed to do with respect to Know Your Customer. Though the idea has supposedly been beaten down in Congress, it seems to be still in effect. I don't understand this. It is strange. We have reports of strange questions for people buying cashier's checks and trying to withdraw cash. Those encountering problems along these lines need know that this is their money that they are asking for. Don't be afraid to raise a fuss. The assumption that we are all drug dealers laundering money is ludicrous.

We had a gun show in Denver today and it had double to triple the attendance over last year. Though the press would like to classify all these people as criminals...once again this is ludicrous.

Buena Fe...I think you are on to something looking at the bond chart from 1979 on. That's when the hard money rally ended and the paper money rally began. OK all you engineers, let's pull out those charts and run the the EW numbers and Fibonaccis and see where we are at with this? Does it look like the long term gold chart from 1968 to let's say 1981? Just wondering. ??? Try running it in constant dollars, as well as nominal. Let's see what we come up with. A silver eagle for the best technical presentation comparing the two by Friday of next week.

To all: Thank you for your kind comments. They are sustaining. But it is you who make this FORUM what it is.
And we are among the top gathering places on the Internet. I cannot believe the number of requests we have gotten for posting privileges just in the past week.
Cavan Man
USAGOLD
MK- Could you expand on your comments regarding Arab Oil devaluing the dollar? It sounds like you believe their efforts to get the price up are directed specifically at the dollar. When prices for any good or service rise the "money" buys less so it (money) is devalued right? If AB raise their wholsale price for BUD then they devalue the dollar also. Commodity prices are entirely subject to supply and demand yes/no? Less production equals a higher price. I have commented on that same scenario in the forest products (paper) industry. Please explain. Thanks.
Richard, Oregon
Some Personal Thoughts! Reply
THX-1138 (6/5/99; 15:25:32MDT - Msg ID:7209)
Some personal thoughts - Thanks for sharing some of those personal thoughts. They were good words, I see as you do. Back to basics, God, maker of the original money, and Gold, created by the Master himself. Nice to hear of another believer, in Gold and in God.
Beowulf
Who has the correct figures on CB sales?
http://www.ft.com/search97cgi/vtopic?action=view&VdkVgwKey=%2Fapache%2Fdocs%2Farchive%2Fqc9faa%2Ehtm&DocOffset=7&DocsFound=196&QueryZip=%3CMany%3E%27gold%27&Collection=Coll2&Collection=Coll4&Collection=Coll6&Collection=Coll7&Collection=Coll3&Collection=Coll8&SortOrder=Desc&SearchUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eft%2Ecom%2Fsearch97cgi%2Fvtopic%3FQueryZip%3D%253CMany%253E%2527gold%2527%26Filter%3Dftfilter%252Ehts%26ResultTemplate%3Dj99reslist%252Ehts%26QueryText%3Dgold%26action%3DSearch%26Collection%3DColl2%26Collection%3DColl4%26Collection%3DColl6%26Collection%3DColl7%26Collection%3DColl3%26Collection%3DColl8%26SortOrder%3DDesc%26ResultStart%3D1%26ResultCount%3D10&After reading that report from the World Gold Council (WGC) posted earlier something started to bother me. Look at the above article from the London Financial Times (LFT). The total sales of Ms. Fukuda quotes for official sales for the last 10 years is 312 tonnes, but the article from the LFT states 6,700 tonnes of "Official" gold being sold, a difference of 6,388 tonnes. Who's right? Was 6,388 tonnes of gold sold or loaned out that the World Gold Council didn't know about?

I'm sorry I didn't post this later but it just dawned on me where I last saw these numbers.

-Beowulf
Beowulf
correction
Correction: My previous post should read "The Financial Times", instead of The London Financial Times.
Peter Asher
Mortgages
Earlier today I referred to paying off one's mortgage as a protection against economic turbulence. Aristotle's reply is quite valid and very astute. However, one should at least pay out into the future a bit in any event. While inflation can be a plus for debt holders, severe deflation can be a disaster.

Some people will not have much equity at stake, but those who have a high percentage of equity in their home not only have something substantial to loose, they are a more tempting foreclosure target.

Our own situation is more unique, as we regard our property as irreplaceable and wish to have it free and clear in any event.

As Janis Joplin sang in 'Bobby McGee',-- "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose."
Buena Fe
Ramblings
Friends,
Have you ever bought something (like a car or a house), or created something (like a great dinner party or a piece of art) that stood out far above in comparison to what your friends owned/created, that you feared turning your peers into instant enemies due to their possible reaction of envy/jealousy? So instead of being proud of it and showing it off, you kinda talked it down and scaped every bit of humility together that you could muster so as to ease their initial reation to your accomplishment, hoping that maybe after a little time went by they would appreciate it as much as you do!

Well I don't know if I communicated this thought very well, and maybe someone else has or will say it better, but I believe that this senario describes how Europe feels and has been acting about their little creation called the Euro!

They have been very humble, almost contrite, although a might bit aloof about the whole thing IMHO. And yet if ANOTHER/FOA are correct in their assertions, this little thing called the Euro is really a financial neutron bomb to the dollar paper crowd.

Time will tell all.
Keep Well
Julia
Answers to my questions
Goldsun, Thanks again for your earlier post. Julia


TO North of 49, USAGOLD, Cavan Man, The Scot, Gandalf, Aristotle, FOA and Peter.......

What a great bunch of guys you are. I've been away and when I dropped in to visit my favorite "Knight Spot" tonight, ..well......... I was overwhelmed to find so much has been written to me. I have made copies of your responses to my multitude of questions and will read them all tomorrow since it is quite late (or early) here now. It will take every bit of my mental ability to grasp it all I'm sure. You are kind to take the time to share your thoughts with me. I consider every one of them a gift and a piece of the puzzle of "how our economic world works" in these times. I'm truly blessed to have found this place.


TO Peter - Can't wait to hear that "long winded" response you mentioned. Thank you for considering my questions.

TO FOA - this all started with my questions for you, my friend.. I apologize. I feel I may have been insensitive to how busy you are right now. I look forward to your input when you have the time. Thank you.

All - Looking forward to reading all of the good stuff inbetween the posts to me.

Good night. And thank you again.
Julia

something else
A (perhaps na�ve) thought of mine regarding the EU and the euro
A comment was made in this forum a day or two back regarding the creation of a unified military for the EU. The establishment of the euro in combination with the newly created unified EU military seems to suggest that Europe has finally decided that it has had enough of Americas reign of dominance. The establishment of a single currency that is independent of the machinations of the US monetary system, coupled with a strong military that is independent of (and perhaps somewhat disdainful of?) NATO, suggests the near fulfillment of a goal of progressive disassociation from Americas heretofore-unchallenged international control. The recent OPEC alliance for price control is another cog in the wheel (or should I say 'nail in the coffin�?).

Why is it, I have the feeling that there will be no safety net (bailout) there for us when we fall?
SteveH
How it might play out
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/sheldon010199.htmlFrom the above site:

"The tip-off that the BBM's have exhausted their potential leases of gold and silver was when LTCM had to use the FRB to bail itself out instead of just borrowing or leasing precious metals and selling the hard assets for cash to cover their emerging market and trading losses.

So what happens now? I suggest the following scenario may unfold over the next ten years...."

My take on his scenario is that it will be compressed to within one year. I say that because of Y2K and oil and short covering. In other words, the rubberband is wound tight on the balsam wood toy airplane and when the kid lets go of it, it will fly immediately. IMO.

SteveH
A slight rewrite and FOA/A's comments left out (not my choice) but...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/gold-eagle picks up (with my permission) the currency war comments.
SteveH
Word is definetly getting out...
SteveH
Again, wrong interpretation...
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?999From Sunday's London Times:

"...The draft summit statement stated that "the European council is not at all concerned by the current development in the euro's foreign exchange rate".

However, the passage was excised after some heads of government expressed fears that trying to send out a message that there was no need to panic would induce just that...."

I interpret that quote differently. They have a trump card and haven't played it yet.

SteveH
Venerasso on gold...
http://www.venerosogold.com/library/Must read on Bank of England Gold sales especially part ii about 1/3 the way down where the A/FOA agenda is confirmed vis a vis:

'The deliberate deception again leads one to the conclusion there is a hidden agenda behind the sale [BOE] ... implicitly suggesting an ideological battle between an Anglo-American camp, and the Continental Europeans on the other...."

This is further cooberation to the intepretation of A/FOA. It further points out that A/FOA fall defintely belong to the Continental European camp. Based on the period of postings here and on Kitco and the consitency in their theme from the beginning with the exception that they started out discussion gold for oil then later Euro for oil tells us that the hidden trump card is oil.

Further to the discussion, the quality of the information over such an extended period of time demonstrates the insider knowledge of these two posters inside the European camp. The increased urgency in there message may be intrepreted to mean that the outcome is nearing its end game or just a more openly fought conflict on the gold and currency board where the final victory will be world reserve currency status.

The facts and opinions and events do seem to corroborate the battle of the currencies as to be the OVERWHELMING EXPLANATION FOR CURRENT WORLD FINANCIAL EVENTS PERIOD. ALL NEWS AND PRESS RELEASES FROM BOTH CAMPS CLEARLY FALL INTO ONE OR THE OTHER CAMP PERIOD. THE OPEN BATTLE FOR WORLD RESERVE CURRENCY IS ON AND IN THE OPEN.

Recent statements by the Euro banking authorities in support of the Euro and the removal of the statements playing down the Euro's recent fall is clear evidence that the TIMES article falls into the dollar camp and their interpretation of the Euro bank official is not even close to the remarks true meaning.


JCTex
Turbohawg: a day or so ago, you related an instance where your bank
teller refused to cash your check from your brokerage house. Most likely, your check was for more than was in your bank account, in which case, he/she would require you to wait for the funds to clear [usually, 4 days]. This is often a good practice, but can also be viewed as simply a way for the bank to "work the float" on you. However, it is possible that the Federal bank examiners are "encouraging" the bank to follow certain practices whatever they are called. Belive me, they do know how to "encourage."
JCTex
Gold-Carry question regarding loan agreement and collateral
It occurs to me that NO banker is going to lend money without collateral and a collateral agreement attached to loan agreement. Is that true in the Gold-Carry setup??? If it is, then it would seem to me that it is the mining company stockholders that are going to [ultimately] pay the price when the gold-carry unravels. It would also be true that the Central Bank would be the ultimate winner because they would end up virtually [if not actually] owning the mine because the chain of collateral would be from the mine to the boullion bank to the large commercial bank to the Central bank. True or False??
Julia
North of 49
See....I knew you held a piece of the proverbial puzzle. Your black tie is showing!! You can't hide it anymore!!

I remember when you were out there in the Yukon??was it? talking to us from an oil rig?? or something like that?? You were in a storm where you said the wind was blowing huge pieces of ice around like they were marshmallows?? I was really glad when you got back in one piece from wherever that was.

My point is that you have life experiences different from mine and no matter what the topic we discuss together, you will always have your story to tell from those experiences that will add a fresh perspective to what I have experienced.

Your wise comments (msg 7151) about cycles in nature as well as the markets helped soothe the fretting I felt nagging at me. Thank you. I want to relax and learn to ride the waves that occur from the cycles of the markets. But just like learning to bodysurf the ocean waves, I expect to have my face rubbed in the sand and gulps of salt water strangle me a few times before I get it right and can ride the long ones in to the beach. After patiently waiting, trying to maneuver myself to be in just the right spot at just the right time, missing a big one or getting dunked by one because I wasn't prepared for it to happen so fast, finally I catch "a big one." Ahhhh! It is a wonderful feeling of success after riding it to shore, lying in the sand, basking in the "golden " sun, letting the little "after-waves" wash over me pulling sand from under my body as the tide continues its natural ebb and flow cycle....... It was worth everything I went through to get there.

My experience has taught me that I can make alot of headway if I search out the "how to's" from other people. My father taught me the joy of bodysurfing and even now in my more mature years, I still feel the wonderful rush of joy when I catch a big wave and ride it in to the beach! He is no longer with me in this life, but what I learned from him, which was alot more than bodysurfing the waves ofcourse, will affect my life always. Same goes here.

Thank you so much for being here. In the words of someone I call a mentor, "We will watch this new gold market together, yes?"
Julia
USAGOLD
JCTex...
The central banks rely on the bullion banks as counterparties for repayment (i.e., Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, Scotia Mocatta etc.) via a standard contract agreement. If a mine goes belly up, the bullion banks are forced to get the gold to the central bank creditors. The bullion banks are then usually forced into bankruptcy proceedings to be repaid -- the recent Royal Oak situation being a good example. Scotia Mocatta -- a gold lender to Royal Oak -- is in line with everybody else to be repaid at (10�) on the dollar. They will not get gold from Royal Oak, yet gold, not paper currency, is what they owe. They will have to make good to the central bank somehow. This fact of gold lending life explains much in the way of the behavior of the bullion banks in the options markets, and explains the vested interest bullion banks have in keeping the price down. In times like these with the price down, this is not a problem. SM goes into the market finds the gold and returns it. In an environment where the price is rising, or lease rates are rising, and there is a scarcity of metal, they have a problem. Now picture that on a mass scale (not an isolated incident) and you begin to see what some have talked about around here in terms of a major gold spike at some point along the way. You also begin to see what I am talking about when I ask FOA/Another if the Bank of England is acting as gold provider of last resort to the London Bullion Marketing Association. It could be that it is either that or face acute problems in the British banking sector due to one or more bullion banks being pushed to the ropes.

When these loans go to bankruptcy court obviously there is more than one creditor knocking on the door. The courts are called upon to sort things out. The most likely scenario would be the sale of the mine(s) and whatever other assets are laying around and parcelling out the proceeds. In the meantime because mines are high maintenance engineering projects, you have rapid depreciation of the assets in real terms (not one of those neat little regression schedules), i.e. the mine fills with water, equipment goes bad, miners leave for better prospects, environmental problems intensify, lenders become very cautious, etc. I'm sure you get the picture. Sure, through a series of financial machinations the central bank has call on that mine, but what do they have in reality. (Sort of like those empty towers in Malaysia -- the tallest, empty buildings in the world!) Thus, they rely on the bullion banks. This is the hidden time bomb in the gold market of which only those of us with an acute interest in the yellow metal are even faintly aware.

USAGOLD
JCTex...
P.S. You're right that the mine company stockholders pay the ultimate price and should scream the loudest. The Royal Oak stockholder now holds essentially a worthless piece of paper, while the creditors pick over the corpse. It's a no win situation, and to think that the mining companies brought this danger to the doorstep themselves by going along with this gold lending business from the very start. Perhaps they didn't understand they were committing industrial suicide -- I don't know. Like much else in today's world, many in the gold mining industry settled for short term profits at the expense of long term health -- seemingly clever until that darkened figure appears at your (not somebody else's) door.

I am happy to see people like Chris Thompson at Anglo and John Willson at Placer fighting the good fight publicly in behalf of the industry. They are to be credited for making a courageous stand.
ET
USAGOLD
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_keyes/19990904_xcake_terrorism_.shtml
Hey Mike - enjoyed reading the last couple of week's posts. I see you are considering another horseman. I would nominate the above article for your consideration. It would appear some have decided to take it upon themselves to run the world. The above article and another by Bob Novak are indeed chilling in their possible ramifications for all. Novak's can be found at;

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/novak031.html

It seems to me these people know we are on the verge of financial collapse and they have no intention of giving up any political power. Terrorism appears to be the tool of choice to keep the great unwashed in line until some new financial system can be implemented.

I saw you asked Tomcat about the current situation concerning y2k and I hope you don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents. The situation in a word could be described as desperate. Very few entities could be described as ready to carry on business as usual. I'm starting to believe my own pessimistic conclusion concerning the economic ramifications of y2k has indeed been way too optimistic. This is shaping up as a total economic collapse of historic proportions. I've failed to find any evidence to the contrary. Virtually every industry in the world is far, far behind in remediation efforts and this does not bode well for any currency except gold. I think it is time for all to put aside any further concerns and concentrate on getting through the next few years in a much smaller economic environment. Although I agree with the Another/FOA theory of a new payment system coming on line I believe they have underestimated the economic impact from y2k and the resulting decline in oil demand. I wouldn't be surprised to see overall demand for oil fall by half or more. We will see. At any rate, time is now very short concerning making preparations for y2k and with the advent of new state-sponsored terrorism disguised as some sort of good, we have the makings of a completely unheard of economic and political environment in which to wind our way through.

ET

Julia
USAGOLD
MK.....Thank you for making it possible to come here and find intelligent, gentle people to talk to about gold and the ways of the world. You are a good leader and I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions.

I remember the 70's. I don't remember being especially inconvenienced though. I look back and can say I was oblivious to what was happening in world economics. In the US there were lines for gas but I had food, shelter, water and a job. This devauation will be different when it happens wouldn't it? Nixon had taken us off the gold standard then, right? And people began to see gold as an antiquated relic and were willing to stay in US$ and ride it out? Whereas now, gold is chomping at the bit, trying to loosen its shackles which the IMF/US$ bunch is struggling to keep on it. This time there is so much more debt attached to our currency and so little gold to pay for it with years ahead already sold. (I'm treading on thin ice here trying to piece together things that I have read or think to be true. So, please feel free to correct me.)

As I understand the chess game that FOA has mentioned in his post, the two players are, the IMF/US$ bunch versus BIS/Euro bunch. And like chess there are many different pieces. To name a few I understand, euro, inflation, y2k, manipulation, oil, but I know there are others that I don't fully understand like gold carrying trade, COMEX, derivatives. Isn't all this more sinister than a group of businessmen and eastern rulers deciding that they were not getting enough for their oil in the 70's. Doesn't that signal a worse situation than the 70's??

Do you think that if one is prepared for y2k, one is then prepared for the mother of all $ devaluations?

Got to be at a meeting soon so I must go.
Thanks, Julia
Julia
ET
Would you be willing to share what you have done personally to prepare for y2k?

Julia
CoBra(too)
inevitability of discontinuities...
It has been a real summer weekend, fronts of thunder storms kept at bay and leisurely contemplating the generosity of sharing the indepth thoughts of so many at this forum.

The war at Kosova, hopefully, becoming history, though not quite yet with the doubletalk of Milosevic, who now does not seem to have anything more to lose; Nor the misery of the refugees nor the bombed out Serbian people nor Europe's clear mandate to rebuild this region in their own (back-) yard. It is slowly dawning upon ones mind that the post WWII world order is rapidly being dumped to history.
The new era, and I don't mean the new paradigm of IT and hi tech approach, the forever lasting economic growth apostles stand for and are preaching to the "brave new world" (not only day traders), may be emerging as a total discontinuation from what we became to accept as the parameters of the way we chose to live and manage our affairs in life. The inevitability of discontinuities will affect all and it is no wonder that governments will do everything possible to resist change-since their election to power was in the past.
As I've reread some chapters of "The Great Reckoning", by James D. Davisdson and William Rees-Mogg (published 1991), where they already deplored the destruction of gold convertibility as the major mistake to the discipline of creating stable expectations, we now face, IMHO, major upheavals in view of the almost total dollarization of the global economy, with its apparent fallouts in major regions of global society. The introduction of the euro currency being the catalyst to rapid change and conceptual reorientation and, as I feel, the SE Asian block will counter with their own currency block, the world will discontinue todays appearance(s) by tomorrow.
At the twilight of the second millenium B.C., I feel, we did not even heed and digest the bloody lessons of the 20th. century, in spite of gigantic technological advances, which can never replace the yardstick of balanced and fair advancement of mutual respect and understanding.

The Rise and Fall of the proverbial "Roman Empire", revisited may be a future topic of a Steven Spielberg blockbuster (get tickets).

Sorry for taking up (too) much space in philosophising.
ET
Julia
Hey Julia - I began preparing three years ago but basically I went at it with the idea that my income could be reduced to zero due to a financial collapse. I moved out of the suburbs about a year and a half ago and bought ten acres and a house out in the sticks in Kansas. My wife and I have always gardened and canned a lot of food so all we've done is increase the size and scope of our garden. We've come up with a couple of backup water sources aside from the county water system. We've installed wood stoves and basically purchased enough supplies to last us for a couple of years if we have no money or supplies get very expensive. Like Aristotle, I've always kept most of my savings in metals rather than paper. I guess our biggest fear has been having to go to the government for assistance so we have taken it upon ourselves to eliminate this possibility and be in a position to help our neighbors. Most of the people around here are pretty self-sufficient and are y2k aware so I guess we've achieved a certain piece of mind.

I do believe bank runs and martial law are inevitable. I don't believe in the end that government will be of much assistance to most. They haven't prepared any more than any other entity. I'm also convinced that certain areas will experience some civil unrest and the government will have it's hands full maintaining order. You'll likely have to provide your own security in some areas.

On the plus side I do believe that those that are prepared will fare well in a new, more free political and economic environment. I'd say you will need to get by on your own for the first 6 months or so but an economy will emerge, if not an economy similar to today's. I think what has happened in Russia over the last few years is likely what will happen here in the US. The world didn't end, it just changed.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to tell you what we've done. Contact Mike for my email address.

ET
CoBra(too)
Si tacuisses-philosophos mansisses
I should have heeded this ancient advice - and not only in my typos.
Thanks anyway for your patience....
Peter Asher
Economic Cannibalism
This writing started out as a response to Julia, but as more and more of us responded to her, the subject evolved into more than just devaluation.

Before I get into the essence of this laborious treatise, I would like to add to some commentary regarding our Forum itself. It was said yesterday that "TRUTH, kindness and civility" were the key ingredients that make the Forum special. I would like to add a fourth, and in doing so, answer a question that was raised several days ago. A poster wanted to know why one of our most highly praised contributors (in their words, "of such great intellect") would take the time to write on this Forum? That fourth ingredient is COMRADERY ! That certainly is my most cherished aspect of this group.

So, on to the subject at hand:
'Economic Cannibalism' is a term I have created to describe the aberrations that cause the distress in our economic system. The excesses of consumer credit (and the squandering of credit) cannibalize our wealth by using up much of the affluence of our productivity in satisfying our immediate pleasures at the expense of greater productive ability to enhance our lives in the long run. Credit is, of course, what currency is all about.

When concerned about devaluation, one has to focus on just what currency is. I think I've pointed out before that Gold is asset money and currency is credit money. Simply put, currency is someone's 'title' to goods or services produced by the country issuing it. Whether the holder has earned it, borrowed it from someone who did, had it advanced by a CB printing press, or traded for it with a currency from somewhere else, it is just that, a title. The government may or may not secure that title with 'asset' money. Operationally, the citizens of the issuing nation deliver things in exchange for it. Then they have 'title' to someone else's production.

It's how much production that title will buy that is the essence of inflation, deflation, Dollar up, Euro down, etc. So what determines how much that currency will buy? A piece of my post #6941-5/31 (The one that "got Michael's attention"(Thank you, Michael) would apply to all currencies, not just the Euro and Dollar

<>

Both consumer credit and squandered credit, weaken the strength of any economic structure by spending created product on that which will not produce in return. While consumer credit is the lubricant that oils the wheels of the economy, it is also the via for the abuse that cripples the work flows of society. To elaborate: Even in our new "just in time" inventory economy, borrowed capital is needed to pay for the production and delivery at each stage of the source-to-consumer chain, and if future earnings are 'spent' in the present for things that make one's life more productive, then the economic machinery operates more powerfully. But, when credit functions to purchase a more affluent life style than the value of what one is producing, a tune is being danced to for which the piper has not yet been paid.

Squandered credit is, of course, even more disabling to the power of an economy. Michael described one form of this in a nutshell when he wrote, regarding Gandalf's description of the Thai collapse, "Why are they building skyscrapers to the sky in a country where most of the fields are still plowed by oxen?" Empty buildings planned to receive external currency as rent, but earning none, while internally, nothing is spent to enhance the most basic primitive production facilities. All materiel advance is tapped out with no economic exchange created to replace it. In the final tally, it's not tapping out credit that triggers collapse, it's the absence of the ability to repay it.

The malignant forms of credit squandering are more familiar. Social programs that encourage non- production (much worse in the EU than in the USA, and part of the Euro's weakness), armament, and munitions. (How much of that product has gone up in smoke in Yugoslavia?) And now somebody has to foot the bill for a 100 billion dollar reconstruction project.)

As we approach this Millennium milestone, I think of some of the visions that were around when I was a kid. We thought we would ring in the year 2000 with cities around the globe filled with affluent people living in an architectural paradise, while colonizing the solar system and maybe a star or two. Instead we're worrying about who's currency ox gets gored, who will eat a full meal, and whose kids will survive the bombs and bullets. Forgive me for this turning into a sermon, but sometimes one thing just leads to another.

So Julia, you did ask after all about devaluation and what to do about the threat.
,
In responding to Steve and Tom yesterday, I outlined the method of escaping the effects of a devalued currency. Don't store any value in it! If you don't have a property or other resource you feel comfortable with, then Gold is the sure thing to hold value. While the purchasing power of Gold may, in times like this, decline, it is certain that when it is the monetary medium of choice or necessity, Gold will buy dear!

GOLD IS A MONETARY ASSET ---- CURRENCY IS CREDIT.

Currency can be devalued and defaulted. In the long run, it is not a question of whether an ounce of gold will buy $100, $300 or $800 worth of things at any particular time. The fact that it will ALWAYS buy something, is what makes Gold eternal.

The Scot
julia: Simple y2k plan
Julia, you had asked soneone else for a Y2K preperation plan. Let me give you one example. It may be work, or it may fail completely. I think the "Betting Odds" are with me. Step one. Borrow as much money as you can. Buy 1oz bullion coins that are .9999 fine gold for about $290.00 each. Sell half of the Gold in late December. You will propbaly get $1,000.00 each for them at that time. Pay off the loan in Febuary or March of year 2000. The money will have devalued about 50% which means you only had to actually pay back half the money you borrowed. Give the rest of the cash to the poor and keep the balance of the Gold. You will have done a very good deed and God will have rewarded you for it. Sincerely, The Scot
The Scot
Julia
P.S. When you go to repay the loan, if the bank is gone, be sure to give all of the cash to the poor. The Scot
searching
Gold Leasing
I have really enjoyed everyone's comments on Gold Leasing and Y2K. Not having a very strong background in how leasing works I need help. Who borrows against the gold and who sells it to buy US Bonds which go up as gold goes down and sells it for a profit? Can someone take me from the first step to the last so that someone like myself understands how the entire transaction works. Thank you for your patience in advance. I have learned so much from all of you
Tomcat
Peter Asher

Your post on econmic cannibalism is both enlightening and inspirational. Inspirational in reminding us that we are on the right track with gold (the asset currency).

It was also inspirational in that while reading it I kept thinking of the increasing productivity of the third world and how some of the profits of that productivity are stolen via their national debt burden. Hopefully, with a future gold backed financial system, these productive countries will actually see the fruits of their labor.

I am both tired and guilty of eating the fruit of their labor.
Gandalf the White
Technical Review & Comments Requested
Found this at that other board, and wish someone to advise if this is a feasible worry, or another "red herring". Thanks <;-)
----
> Date: Sun Jun 06 1999 15:20
> Silverbear (Y2K-2 ) ID#119246:
> Copyright � 1999 Silverbear/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
> I've been a COBOL programmer for about 15 years. The shop were I work is diligently working on the Y2K problem but no long ago we realized that making the code Y2K compliant is just part of a much larger problem.
> Like us, many other large corporations are now discovering or soon will discover that much if not all or their corporate data is saved on records which contain an "effective date" and a "termination date" which is what tells the computers processing their data, when a given record is "effective".
> The problem is, when these databases were originally built years ago, the programmers knew the systems couldn't handle dates after 12-31-1999. So what did they do? They put 12-31-1999 or 12-31-99 in the termination date when the databases were built. To make matters worse, users have been keying termination dates of '12-31-99' on records for years because entering 12-31-00 would end up as 12-31-1900. Worse yet, many programs were coded so that if the termination date was left blank when a record was added, the program would plug it with '12-31-99' or '12-31-1999'.
>No problem, just change all the termination dates to say
'01-01-3000'? You know how long it takes to do this on trillons of records? And what about all the records that have been added this last year with a valid termination date of '12-31-1999'? How do you tell these records from the ones where the termination date should be open ended?
> What happens if you make a record with a termination date of '12-31-1999' open ended and as a result it overlaps the dates on another record that is not supposed to become effective until say '01-01-2000' but has already been loaded for next years new pricing, etc? Do this and you end up with more than one record with the same key in effect at the same time. I won't even go into what programs do when they encounter this but needless to say it's not good.
> To sum it up, we can make every program on the planet Y2K compliant and come '12-31-1999' much of the worlds data is going to cease to be "effective". Fixing this data is going to be just as big or a bigger problem than fixing the code. It will require looking at every single record on every database in the world. It will require massive downtime for systems while the databases are off line during the massive updates that will be required.
> Worse yet, it will require many more programmers as are currently working on the code to fix this the data in time. Where will they come from? There's not enough time to train more now. You know how many companies test for Y2K compliance? They set the system date on a spare machine greater than '12-31-1999' and then run the production data from yesterday against their current production databases. Guess what? The date of service, invoice date, etc. on yesterdays data works fine with the bad data because the date of service, invoice date, etc is still less than
'12-31-1999'.
> In otherwords, most Y2K testing as it's been done to date has not even identified this problem!
> Do not look for this on 60 minutes anytime soon. Any shops that are now aware of this will be keeping very quiet until they have time to determine how bad the problem is.
>
>You have been warned.
>======
SteveH
Chris
http://www.gold-eagle.com/cgi-bin/gn/get/forum.htmlChris in response to your comments on gold-eagle, which I won't post here without your permission (this time), I would like to remind all that 'my theory in 6820 is merely a summary of what I believe A/FOA are posting. I state that I believe I understand what they are proposing and put it in a way that I could understand it. Nothing is ever black and white but that was as close to b&w as I could come.

I am not sure what NWO means although I have an idea. Occams Razor theory states the simplest explanation is the best:

Some countries not happy with US$ debt.
Devise a new currency not so encumbered.
Convince 11 countries to use it.
Back it with gold.

Seems straight forward to me. What you propose is another step or two in the above, making it more complicated. Whatever the motives are it seems that the A/FOA posting explain much of what goes on. I am open to any explanation as long as it explains the meat of the matter. So far I give A/FOA an A for effort and consistency.

I published what I did so others could also understand. How each of us reacts to it is to each our own. My regret in all of what they posted, if true, is that as an American I wish that the US had, does, and will manage its finances better. One thing is for sure the A/FOA message can't be ignored, especially if true. What do you think?

for the poster looking for leasing info, it is tough to grasp because I believe there are two kinds of gold leasing. First is the European style and the other the American style. FOA alludes to these. In the European case, apparently these are done with the CB keeping the gold, in the case of the other, I believe they let the gold go. The leasing isn't truly a lease per se as the CB's really loan the gold or a certificate. The lease rate is the difference between the interest rate and the gold loan rate, leaving a lease rate, which can go negative. Ted Butler over at the gold-eagle site has a number of good posts on leasing. I tried to find the URL but was unsuccessful. Perhaps you could drop Vronsky a note and he could tell you the URL.
SteveH
Chris
Yes, time will tell all. August gold now...$266.??
FOA
(No Subject)
Michael,
Your post about the convoluted court "workout" of bankrupt mines is one for much consideration. In the event of mine assets being managed by a court trustee, I add: A massive increase in gold prices during this time would require the trustee to reopen the mine at a large profit, even during long drawn-out negotiations. Any new government taxes on such profits would require escrow for later payment "ahead of other players". Also, bullion bank claims would be
fully paid in gold (over a very, very long time) as the new economics of mining make such claims worthy to be satisfied. I do think the BBs will be fighting the government over any new taxes. Truly a mess. Please see below!

Please note that Mr. Faber suspects some CBs to buy back gold at a much higher price. I would add that they will use Euros to do this as that currency will be the "transactional" settlement medium for gold world wide. A price of $1,000 and higher will mark the end of the dollar as is presently known.

Also, his thoughts of "excessive profit taxes" are becoming a more common view as trends reverse. Again, I add that the "journey" from $280 gold to $1,000 gold "will" bring his massive increase in mine stock prices. The problem for most investors will be in timing the selling point. I
think, few will be able to sell their positions in the two or three days time required for gold to make this trip. Does anyone that thinks the shift from this era of gold price management into the era of paper gold "loss management" will bring a gentle price rise over months and years. If one
trades their position on that "premise", I think they will be holding these mine investments for much longer than anticipated. Any new tax legislation will be, no doubt, "grand fathered"! We shall see.

I apologize for not having the link to this story. Perhaps someone can provide it?

Dr Doom: gold, Murdoch, Soros

By Tony Boyd

Dr Marc Faber is the Hong Kong-based contrarian also known as Dr Doom. He writes a monthly newsletter called the Gloom, Boom and Doom report for 900 institutions and wealthy private individuals including some of Australia's better known multi-millionaires. Here he talks to Tony Boyd about his latest views.

On the gold price
Let's assume for one reason or another the psychology in the world changes in favour of an inflationary psychology
or for whatever reason people say they want to own gold.

With the world's population of 6 billion people, if each
person buys one gram of gold each worth about $13 that
would be about 6,000 tons of gold when there is an annual supply of 2,500 tons. The swing factor will be dramatic.

On gold and central banks I am prepared to bet with anyone in Australia that the central banks, which today are selling gold at less than $US300 an ounce, will go back and buy it at more than$US1,000 a ounce in a few years' time.

I am convinced it's going to be that way because I think
eventually the power will be taken away from the central
banks and the world will go back to some kind of financial system that has automatic built-in stabilisers.

The gold standard had some faults but the whole industrial revolution and the tremendous growth in the
world that occurred between 1800 and 1930 occurred under a gold standard, so you cannot dismiss the fact that the gold standard had some merits.

On a soaring gold price I think the gold price will go up so dramatically that governments will introduce excessive profit taxes on producers or, worse, expropriate them altogether.

If the gold price moves from say $US280 at the present
time to $US400, gold shares will go up by up to 200 per
cent, easily. So you have more leverage in gold shares, but if the gold price goes to more than $US1,000 then I would worry about excess profit taxes.
beesting
John Q. Public doesn't have a clue about the real value of Gold!
First'searching #7253,
Check out FOA post #7186 6/5/99 which I consider a masterpeice of logic,and USAGOLD's earlier post today,than attack archives-your Gold education has begun!

Second,@ Peter Archer and Tomcat;
Great post Peter,on economic cannibalism,I would like to add something I picked up on, if I may.
About 2 years ago I was selling an un-named(legal) product made in the U.S.A. when a customer remarked loudly that,I can get that(un-named legal product) cheaper at the discount store. So, I researched it.Seems the product he was referring to was made and produced in mainland China,and exported to the U.S.Upon further research I found; For the cost of hiring one U.S. worker(beleive it or not) 1200 Chinese workers could be hired.How can workers in high cost of living countries compete with that? By the way this product has to be produced manually.One other thought,the exchange rates have a lot to do with this un-equalization,if a one world Gold currency(measured in grams of Gold.Example:one dollar = one gram of Gold) ever came about, IMHO, trade would be equalized,however a side effect would be a lower standard of living for affluent nations and a higher standard of living for emerging nations.

Now,my opinion, on the U.S. public.
Yesterday, I started an innocent conversation with a local Jeweler/Goldsmith I've known for about 3 years.I asked him what he thought about the recent drop in the world spot price of Gold.
His reply,(remember he's a Goldsmith);Oh,words to the affect of,"Gold is a barbarous relic." I proceeded to explain a small portion of what I have learned on this forum to him. After a few minutes,his mouth dropped open, and the really's,and you don't say's'started coming,and wouldn't let up. After about 1/2 hour we both had to go to work.
I than realized the total population of the U.S.(except for the Gold disscussion groups) has been thoroughly and completly duped by the mainstream anti-Gold campaign.FWIW(for what it's worth).........beesting


beesting
Question to FOA or any of our European friends.
Question: DO the workers in the 11 Euro Countries make the same wages performing the same duties?
Example:A grape picker in Italy,a grape picker in France,a grape picker in Germany?
Thank you in advance........beesting




FOA
(No Subject)
Beasting, thank you for thinking through my post #7188 (7186 was steveH). I have always found that the "masterful" mind belongs to the one that can understand what the writer has written! In this day of language "slang", offered in every country, reading has become the most difficult task.

SteveH, also thank you for your grade of "A". I believe everyone that follows USAGOLD will pass this class in good economic health (myself included). We live our lives to produce something of value to others. This is indeed the basis of world trade. However, "fair" trading requires
understanding of each other as much as mastering the knowledge of "the transaction". This forum exposes the true nature of that progress as we gain the knowledge understanding people as well as ourselves.

Also, I add this story to your evolution. "Have you ever talked to someone that said the sun would rise in the east and then the world would end? When asked if they could explain? The reply was, I don't know the mechanics of rising suns. I'll leave that to the experts. But truly, this
world will end after the light, because it came to me in a dream. Dreams, I asked? I could never figure those either, but they are true, came the reply.

Thanks FOA


Gandalf the White
Poor Spot the Dog !!
As soon as Gold opened in Hong Kong, someone droped a load on Spot the Dog !! --- Dropped it over one US$ to 264.40 and it wiggled around plus or minus a bit for two hours before it popped back up and is now 264.70
<;-)
Jade
A lower price of Gold in USD's hints at USD Devaluation?????
It's most interesting that from the introduction of the Euro at the first of the year, the price of Gold in USD and the Euro/USD exchange rate have slid about 10% each to this date. This slide has almost occurred in tandem as it relates to the USD. Now from the Euro point of view, this really cannot hurt to much as exports to the US Zone have become 10% more competitive, while the Euro Zone industrial base enjoys interest rates half of what their counterparts must live with here in the US. The competitive advantage enjoyed by Euro Zone business is rather heavy handed at this moment. Now if you start to look around the Globe, the same picture is emerging. Now what occurs here is a massive export of US Dollars to these Economies. Or in other words, an increase in US Dollar reserves due to the increasing pace of exports to the US Zone from points around the Globe. And of course, the only threat to these USD Reserve holdings would be a potentital devaluation of the Dollar. So back to the price of Gold in USD's. Is not the "low price of Gold" in USD's, not a reflection of the potentital risk of devaluation to your USD reserves. After a devaluation, the price of Gold in relation to the devalued currency always buys more currency units. So prior to that devaluation [and now with a slight hint of potentital devaluation in the air] would not that currency [USD] demand a low Gold price as risk/based insurance needed to hold massive amounts of the USD currency as reserves. Now of course to take advantage of this insurance, you would have to convert a portion of your USD currency reserves to Gold. And of course the world must never know, so this conversion would take place in the world Central Banks secret dealing amongst each other. So maybe the lower we see Gold go in USD's, the greater the worlds USD reserve holders believe the risk of USD devaluation is close at hand. We see no Euro Zone/Pacific Rim CB's selling gold. Only the US/IMF group appear to be sellers.
FOA
Comment.
beesting (6/6/99; 21:19:50MDT - Msg ID:7260)

My answer is no. But, I suspect there is more to your question. Please, continue?

I will make time to return and reply in seven hours or so. Other duties call. thank you beesting
Gandalf the White
Question to FOA
Where in your opinion will Aragorn III's "Thunder in the night" occur ? --- Now we watch the Spot gold start out the week "Downunder" and move to HK before reaching London and ending in the US. -- Do you await the BoE, bailout of the Brittish BB's before the blastoff in the price of Au ? -- OR will the cause be from another tightning of the OPEC taps before the Y2K effect sets in ? -- Let us hear your pronostications on the timing of this event. Thanks for everything you have pointed the Goldhearts toward, and we shall all meet you sometime at the future world gold trading site in the East.
<;-)
Tomcat
Ten reasons to by gold


Michael, on Saturday, I believe, you asked that I make a contrubution the forum on Y2k. I believe you said that I was holding out and perhaps that is true. Y2k has been discussed on the internet so much and for so long that I have felt that many are not interested. Despite this, at your request, I will give it shot.

First, let me list a few disclaimers. What I am about to say about Y2k is my opinion based on a one year study. Note I said opinion. That is the biggest problem with y2k. It is hard to draw conclusions based on an event that we have never experienced before. I am suspect of anyone who claims with certainty that Y2k is going to be a blip in the road or a catastrophe.

Second. My background: I was for many years a systems engineering consultant that was brought into large aeospace projects (rocket launches, etc.) that were behind schedule (just like many y2k projects). I witnessed dozens of engineers telling me how things were ok because their project was ok. We always started out with dozens of subsystems that had checked out ok on an individual basis. We never knew the real status of a rocket payload until wie assembled all the subsytems and tried to get the sysetem working. It was after the initial test of the complete system that reality set in.

An unproven system is not, I repeat not, the sum of its parts. The approach to Y2k is fix the subsystems, put them all together, don't test everything working together, and hope that on Jan 1, 2000, the many systems connected together will work.

The systems work it did was years ago. For the past twenty years I have been a business consultant. Currently I am involved in ten partnerships.

Ok, why am I of the opinion that y2k is going to have serious consequence. Here are 10 reasons:

1. First, believe it or not, y2k as a problem is not even defined correctly. As most of you know, y2k progress is reported by stating how well each company is doing on their internal remediation. Solving internal remdediation is only one part of the problem. The big problem is getting the software and hardware of many sub-systems talking together properly after their internal remediation has been completed. 1999 should have been the year for system/system testing. Instead, large intrasystem tests of many computers communicating are only being done by the US based banks and a few other industries.

2. If at least 20% of all firms experience substantial delays due to their internal y2k problems then delays are enough to create a dominoe effect which will create more that a 20% decline in productivity. This model is based on a personal math model that I sketched out. Internationally, 20% of the firms are going to experience delays. In the US this may or may not occur.

3. A year ago, I did not believe the government progress reports. I still don't. Some reports say that fortune 500 companies are 90% done. If industry is so far along on y2k projects there would tens of thousands of y2k software types looking for jobs; instead, their is a shortage of qualified y2k programmers.

4. US industry depends on US and foriegn suppliers; some of whom won't make it. GM, depends on close to 100,000 suppliers. Close to 5000 of those suppliers, I am told, are very critical. My opinion is that GM and many firms like GM have a massive supplier problem.

5. European utilities are in trouble. Japan started late and many are still in denial. Foriegn oil companies are behind. Italy and Venesuala are still trying to get a y2k budget approved. This list goes on....

6. My opinion is that their will be a small number of bank runs both internationally and in the US. These will be televised. The media, unless prevented by the government, will amplify these events. The media has under-reported on y2k. The bank runs will be publicized by the media and there will be a flight to gold, silver and, US treasury notes.

7. One of the big problems is that cash based businesses will withold some of their cash income instead of depositing that cash. My opinion is that this is a larger problem than Joe Sixpack withdrawing $1000 from his savings.

8. I believe that in December a small percentage of firms will shut down early. They will take a holiday. This will be publicized by the media and there will be a flight to gold, silver and US treasury notes.

9. During the tense days of December I believe their will be a small percentage of countries experiencing politcial turmoil. This will be publicized by the media and there will be a flight to gold, silver and US treasury notes.

10. Finally, in December, I believe that about 10% of the public are going to "get it" and this will be publicized by the media and there will be a flight to gold, silver, and US treasury notes.

Will all this be enough burst the bubble? Can't say, since the Plunge Protectioin Team may have more up their sleeves. I can say with assurance, however, the PPT are going to be very busy in December. And if the bubble does burst then it will be due to y2k or some other reason than the current Plunge Protected Mania.

One last point. If gold and silver go sky high in December then I believe there will be a POG crash in January because, oddly enough, I beleive January will be somewhat mild, y2k wise. The effects of Y2k won't start being felt heavily until March or April when inventory/supplier problems start to show up.

So, Michael and friends, there you have it. As you can see, a lot of how I feel is do to my opinion on how the public and media play on eachother. Lets hope I am wrong! But in the meantime: gold! Get you some!
Tomcat
Ten reasons to by gold


Michael, on Saturday, I believe, you asked that I make a contrubution the forum on Y2k. I believe you said that I was holding out and perhaps that is true. Y2k has been discussed on the internet so much and for so long that I have felt that many are not interested. Despite this, at your request, I will give it shot.

First, let me list a few disclaimers. What I am about to say about Y2k is my opinion based on a one year study. Note I said opinion. That is the biggest problem with y2k. It is hard to draw conclusions based on an event that we have never experienced before. I am suspect of anyone who claims with certainty that Y2k is going to be a blip in the road or a catastrophe.

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Gandalf the White
Thanks, Tomcat for the Y2K opinions!
NOW, please comment on my posting #7255.
<;-)
beesting
Follow up to msg#7260 to FOA.
FOA,you are so kind to share your financial knowledge with us(North Americans-all of us our different we're from all over the world) we can only repay you with insights into our thoughts,I hope that is enough.
In the U.S. there is currently demand for certain skilled occupations;Doctors,nurses top athletes. These occupations can very easily legally work in the U.S.(with proper immigration papers) demanding and receiving higher wages than they may get in their respective home countries.Hence, a higher standard of living for themselves and their families.
Now, my point is,wages may not vary from country to country(as they do now)with the use of a single currency(Euro),in the long term,when workers are payed in Euro's only.FOA do you agree with this?
Let me put this thought in perspective for our North American friends.
Example: A Canadian,or Mexican loses considerable purchasing power when exchanging their Peso's or Dollars for U.S.currency when traveling to the U.S.
In my humble opinion if North America and other Latin American Countries ever went to the all U.S. dollar system (similar to what the Euro Countries are doing) after a long time would an equilibrium be established?
Again In My Humble Opinion, only with some type of dollar that includes Gold as it's base support.......Got Gold.......beesting
Voyager
Julia
I have been caching up on the last several days of forum reading, and one thing that has come up several times is the reference to God and of one's view of their belief in a "personal God". As one who is not a Christian, I thought to offer another perspective.

The Buddha taught that "Religion is not to prepare one for death; it is to prepare one to live".
Often we say that he or she died of cancer, heart attack, stroke or other illness. However, the real cause of death is birth itself. Illness and old age is only a condition. From these words of wisdom, we must realize that what is important is how to live one's life between birth and death. Each of us is born as a human being in this world. The question to us is, are we living, as a human being should? It is an ancient question.

Throughout our live, we accumulate possession's, get married, have children. They are all impermanent. As we grow older or upon death, our possession's pass on to our children, our home is sold, and our children eventually die. Everything is evolving and impermanent. Changing hands you might say. Our human existence, in many ways, is like riding a commuter train, we are constantly watching others come and go, until it is our turn to disembark.

We all take turns in living and leaving this life. What makes life meaningful is not that we all "get on and off" life's train, but whether or not we realize the deep significance of the journey before we reach our exit.

Gold has brought the people of this forum together. This commonality all of us share is also a metaphor for all of us searching how to live this life as a sentient being, how to protect our family, our wealth, to live with strength and joy, and to appreciate our existence. Gold is seems to me is more permanent than anything else in our existence.

Socrates statement of "Know Thy Self" is to know why one "knows" gold.


SteveH
August gold now...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/research/butlerndx.html$267.20.

Some heavy bids of 20 contracts right now.

The above link is the Butler link I was looking for earlier. In that you will find a few articles on gold leasing.

FOA, I am still trying to figure out your story of the rising sun. Best I can figure is the person listening was more concerned about the mechanics of what would cause what was said then the actual event itself. Yep, that must be the message.

Regarding the rise in the price of gold, if it goes from 267 to $1,000 in three days, and then moves higher still, these excess taxes you mention make sense, but I have yet to see our government move that quickly. I see your point of knowing when to sell shares during such a rise, it is always best to remove profits in any rally. Perhaps this will be the rally of all rallys then excess profit taxes will obviously dent it greatly, if I see your point here. Of course, just the mere mention of that could dent it too.

Here is Bill Murphy's speach given at a recent mining convention.

Here is GATA Chairman Bill Murphy's speech to the
Northeast Investment in Mining Conference last Thursday
at the Marriot Marquis hotel in New York.

CHRIS POWELL
Secretary, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

* * *

Much is being said about the Gold Anti-Trust Action
Committee, but unfortunately most if it has been sound-
byte analysis. So today I thought I would try and set
the record straight by explaining the background of
GATA, what we are trying to accomplish, and what it can
mean to all of you.

I have a background of some 25 years in the commodity
markets, but until the past few years had little
interest in gold. In my formative years I was fortunate
to be around and learn from some great economic minds.
One of the great commodity traders of all time is Dan
Ritchie, the chancellor of Denver University. I saw him
turn down both the Harvard chancellorship and D.K.
Ludvig's request to run his empire. Ludvig was probably
the wealthiest man in the world at the time.

There was Ray Dalio, who heads up the esteemed
Bridgewater Associates, who manage $15 billion
including some foreign government portfolios. And then
there is Frank Veneroso, whom most of you know from his
work in the gold market. But Frank is well-known to me
for his consultative expertise in advising the IFC, the
World Bank, and many governments in macro-economic
matters. The finance minister of Mexico called for "the
priest" (Frank) when they had serious financial
problems.

I learned a great deal about the commodity markets from
all of them, and having been a limit-position futures
trader myself at times, I think I have come to learn
something how about how markets trade.

So it was with great excitement and with the help of
Donald & Co.'s, John Brimelow that I decided to launch
my own financial website, www.lemetropolecafe.com,
around Labor Day last year. I was fortunate to attract
some outstanding financial commentators. Charles
Peabody, oft quoted by Barron's Editor Alan Abelson, is
one of the top banking analysts in the United States.
David Tice of the Prudent Bear Fund is constantly on
CNBC. Paris' Eric Barande is well-known among the
central bankers of France. And Dr. Neville Bennett
teaches Japanese history in Canterbury, New Zealand,
while writing for the National Business Review.

But more to the point of why we are all here today.
This past September the gold market looked to me like
it was poised for one of the big moves of all time.
Demand was strong and it appeared that the supply
plagues of the past couple of years were subsiding. Any
pre-EMU selling by European Central Banks would be over
by the end of they year. The Asian crisis and scrap
supply shock, which included a 300-tonne mobilization
from Korea alone, was behind us, and it appeared that
producer forward selling would be greatly slowed
because of the low gold price. That left only leased
gold as a major supply concern.

At the time I thought this might be a plus. Long-Term
Capital Management was blowing up. Over that summer we
had heard that they were short some 300 tonnes of
borrowed gold as part of a "carry trade." The gold
price started to rally toward $300 and we licked our
chops as we prepared for LTCM to buy back its
position.

Then the word spread that LTCM was let out of this
position in an "off-market transaction" -- a rigged
trade so that the price of gold would not shoot up.

The fall went on and every time it looked as if the
price of gold would take off, the same crowd of bullion
banks would knock it down. We then heard that this same
cartel was offering unheard-of relaxed credit terms to
producers if they would just sell forward. It was
reported to us that a well-known gold analyst was
requested by his higher-ups to tone down his
bullishness on gold. At the same time we twice received
feedback from very reliable sources that U.S.
officialdom asked Asian officialdom to refrain from any
aggressive gold purchases.

After all this the Counterparty Risk Management Group,
led by Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan, was formed to
manage risks in the financial sector along with the
likes of Credit Suisse. How long do you think it would
stand if Chrysler, GM, and Ford got together to do the
same thing in the automobile industry?

There was much more and I wrote a piece called
"Scandale Gold." Le Metropole member Chris Powell, the
managing editor of the Journal Inquirer in Connecticut,
said it looked to him like we might have violations of
the Sherman and Clayton anti-trust acts here, so we
should stop complaining and do something about it. That
is how GATA came into being.

We put out a press release and then I was on CNBC.
Coincidentally, Merrill Davidoff, a senior partner of
Berger & Montague of Philadelphia, one of the most
prestigious law firms in the U.S., had just signed up
at my website at the suggestion of John Devlin of Bema
Gold, so we contacted him.

Chris, GATA's hard-working Vice Chairman John Meyer,
and I flew down to Philadelphia a few days later. What
a dream! Merrill, who is here today, was very
knowledgeable about the gold market, and our other
attorney would be Jerome Marcus, just off of the front
page of The New York Times as it was discovered that he
was the behind-the-scenes brains of the Paula Jones
case. Further, Berger and Montague had been plaintiff's
counsel in such powerhouse cases as the Michael
Milken/Drexel Burnham case, the Exxon/Valdez case, the
Orange County case, and many others.

The clarion call went out for support from people all
over the world just like yourselves. Many of your
fellow gold shareholders and a few mining companies
quietly gave us the funds to retain this dream law
firm.

Then we needed a plan to seize the day.

Perhaps I have had too much idle time these past years
and watched too many movies, but after seeing the TV
serial about the great Zulu warrior of South Africa,
Shaka, I decided to fashion our battle plan after his.
To vanquish his foes, Shaka formed a diamond formation
that became an enveloping horn. We would do the same.

At the front of the diamond was our retention of Berger
& Montague. This firm is so highly regarded that our
adversaries and supporters alike would know that we are
for real. Those who might have information about
manipulation in the gold market might more easily come
forth and speak confidentially with our lawyers.
Merrill and Jerome would be available at times to fly
anywhere in the world to speak with those who have
information.

Merrill and Jerome told us: "This is a just case about
price-fixing. It goes on all the time."

Thus we would confront the colluders head-on with legal
power.

Right about then I was flooded with emails and amazed
at how many people said that threats would now be
coming our way. They questioned us whether this might
be too intimidating -- confronting Wall Street's
giants, the most powerful financial entities in the
world. The only way I could answer the intimidation
question was that everything seemed relative.

About 30 years ago I was playing wide receiver for the
Boston Patriots of the old American Football League in
a game against the Kansas City Chiefs. Over the middle
I went on a pass pattern when out of nowhere Hall-of-
Famer Willie Lanier punched me in the face. Down I
went. A bit dazed, I staggered back to my huddle. As I
reached the line of scrimmage, I looked up and saw 6-
10, 280-pound Buck Buchanan and 6-9, 300-pound Ernie
Ladd glaring at me. I thought that if these two both
hit me at the same time, I am a goner.

Now THAT'S intimidation! That was big way back then.

While proceeding with our investigation, we would call
for the left flank to flare out and start to encircle
those who have no regard for the free market. The left
flank would be a public-relations campaign that
targeted Congress. We would alert Congress to the size
of the gold "spec" borrowings and the gold loans. We
believe them to be 3,000 to 10,000 tonnes. Since mine
production in 1998 was only 2,529 tonnes, we believe
the gold loans have become too big to pay back in a
short time. They have now become a "systemic risk"
problem, and if they are not reduced soon, they could
cause another savings-and-loan type of financial
crisis.

I went to Washington and met with U.S. Rep. Jim Saxton,
chairman of the Joint Economic Committee, his staff
director, and their senior macro-economic adviser. I
also met with the senior counsel of the House Banking
and Financial Services Committee and the staff director
of the Capital Market Subcommittee, which I found out
is investigating Long-Term Capital Management for anti-
trust violations.

I urged them all to look into our contentions in the
most vigorous manner. I suggested that they quiz
Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan the next time
he testified before committee.

Whether it was a result of GATA's effort or not, the
following has occurred:

1. Saxton issued a strong statement against the IMF
gold sales the day after my visit. A well-known bullion
dealer analyst said that "GATA mugged Saxton" into
making that statement.

2. Greenspan WAS quizzed in his next banking committee
appearance about the very issues we raised. Some of his
comments are controversial, but he did say, "Gold
represents the ultimate form of payment in the world."

That is now on record and I feel reasonably confident
that we would not have that statement if it were not in
good part because of GATA's efforts. I would be also
remiss if I did not laud Larry Parks of the Foundation
for Monetary Advancement, who has been very effective
in this area.

The understanding by many market followers that the
gold market is being manipulated is spreading rapidly
now.

My namesake and technical analyst guru, John Murphy,
came out on CNBC and said he would not analyze the gold
market because it is manipulated.

And just last Friday I received this note from South
Africa.

"Dear Bill:

"Just thought I'd let you know that I'm noticing almost
daily in the South African press the odd mention of a
possible conspiracy in the gold market. Today, in a
widely read financial daily, the Business Report, we
have a nice 20-odd paragraph column on GATA, yourself
being quoted at length. It comes across quite well.

"The columnist says all we need to find now is the
smoking gun. Well, the way these things are being
discussed publicly lately, who knows? It might be soon.

"Regards,

"Francois."

Meanwhile and very curiously, the mainstream U.S. press
has refused to present our side of the gold story.
Ditto with the London press; the Financial Times of
London actually told a prominent gold analyst that we
were "dangerous" -- but to whom?

Yet, all in all, I would say the left flank has begun
to unnerve our foes. Outstanding progress is being been
made.

We have now unleashed the right flank and progress is
being made there too. The plan was to go to the gold
companies via the press and letters to their CEOs and
ask them to speak up for their industry, to take some
action, and to get behind us.

Now we realize the producers have a big dilemma. He's
called "Hannibal Lechter."

For the bullion bankers are eating the producer's
lunch. They are flooding the market place with gold
supply via 1 percent gold loans known as the "gold-
carry trade." They flood the media with bearish
propaganda which tends to feed on itself and scare the
producers half to death, pleading with them to sell
forward even at these very low gold prices.

The producers have been "silenced like lambs."

Why? Because Hannibal is their credit lifeline, their
banker. The gold producer privately loathes what is
going on, but fearing to alienate Hannibal, does little
or nothing about it. The result of that silence has
produced a slaughter.

Meanwhile "Hannibal Lechter" makes fat fees and a
fortune by investing his virtually interest-free gold
loans in other investment vehicles. How would you like
it if your papa came to you today and said, "Son, go
borrow what you want, practically no risk, practically
no interest, and invest it." How well do you think you
could do? If you had some bad debts that had to be
repaid, would that sort of proposal help you get back
on your feet?

"But Dad," you might say, "such a deal. How can that
be?"

"Oh, don't worry, Son. We'll make sure the gold price
does not go up for some time. You won't have to worry
about paying back the gold loan with a higher gold
price. Only some poor, gold-producing countries, gold
producers, gold miners, and gold shareholders will
suffer, and they don't matter."

Alan Greenspan's twice-made comment, on July 24 before
the House Banking Committee and July 30 before the
Senate Agricultural Committee -- "Central banks stand
ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the
price rise" -- set the recent stage for this big-money
game and for the manipulation of the gold price.

The gold market manipulators have taken no chances of
losing control of this rigged market and money-making
bonanza. Their line of defense points -- first right
above $300 -- have ratcheted down to $296 and then
$290. But this scheme could blow up in their faces at
any time. The natural supply-demand deficit, which
Frank Veneroso thinks could be 1,500-2,000 tonnes this
year, is making it harder and harder to keep the price
down. For example, the natural supply/demand deficit is
four to five times the intended Bank of England sale.

According to Haruko Fakuda of the World Gold Council,
the British decision to sell gold was a "political
one." What does that really mean and why was it done?
Could it be that the manipulators were running out of
supply to hold the gold price down? Does the fact that
Goldman Sachs' international economist, Gavyn Davies,
just happens to be Tony Blair's economist, have
anything to do with this political decision?

That is too much to deal with here. Suffice to say we
have been very heartened by the recent comments coming
from leaders of the producing community.

Chris Thompson, chairman of Gold Fields, led off with a
comment about the dealers trying to talk the market
down by spreading unfounded rumors. That was followed
by John Wilson, president of Placer Dome, who spoke of
"malign forces" acting together to hold down the price
of gold.

We are asking all the gold companies to get behind our
big-tent campaign in some way. In addition to
conducting an investigation of the gold price
manipulation, we are lobbying Congress to vote against
the IMF gold sales. You might like to know that Tom
DeLay, the House power broker, is circulating a letter
right now about his grave concerns in this matter. He
joins congressional heavyweights, Jim Saxton, Tom
Daschel, and Dick Armey, who are opposed to the IMF
gold sales.

We also are pressing on with the banking committees,
feeding them information about the size of the gold
loans, and we are encouraging them to find out what is
going on here for themselves -- before a crisis
develops.

To do all this we need the support of the industry. The
World Gold Council is doing a fine job in promoting
gold demand around the world. But there are things we
can accomplish that are just too sensitive for the gold
council to touch.

We are asking the senior gold producers for some decent
financial support on a confidential basis, and we want
every gold company, no matter how small, to purchase
one of the fine-art limited-edition GATA prints. If
they cannot afford the $500, we are asking them to be
responsible for finding just one shareholder who can
afford it.

In this work of art, Absolut Vodka artist Alain Despert
has brilliantly captured the spirit of GATA. The people
in his painting are all of us. By taking our own
concerted action we can make a difference.

The diamond formation has just begun to turn into the
"enveloping horn." We believe that without this onerous
supply of borrowed gold it would take an equilibrium
gold price of $450 to $500 to clear the market. What
would that do to the share price of your favorite gold
company?

With your help GATA will surge forward. It is only a
matter of time before a John Dean comes walking in the
door or someone sends us a stained dress. The
enveloping horn will close in on the "Hannibal
Lechters." They will have to cover their shorts and
retreat out of the back end of our horn. The price of
gold will rise dramatically and then all of us here
will be the ones with the happy grin.

-END-




SteveH
Times and Euro
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?999From the Times

June 7 1999 EUROPE

Germans turn against euro

FROM ROGER BOYES IN BONN

GERMAN faith in the euro is crumbling, according to an opinion poll published yesterday. It is bad news for Gerhard Schr�der, the Chancellor, as he tries to mobilise voters for the European elections, which are being held in Germany on Sunday. According to Dimap Polling Institute, 59 per cent of Germans are now convinced that the euro will remain a weak currency. In January only 28 per cent were so pessimistic. The euro was sold to the Germans by Helmut Kohl, the former Chancellor, on the basis that the new currency would be as strong and stable as the mark. The Germans were sceptical about this - for a year two thirds of the nation opposed the euro - but the mood seemed to be changing. There was no choice but to accept the euro since no referendum was on offer.

But the fall of the euro against the dollar has shocked many Germans who feel they were cheated by the politicians. The Dimap figures demonstrate that 75 per cent believe the weak euro is limiting economic growth in Germany.

The most entrenched scepticism was recorded in eastern Germany, where people who exchanged their communist currency for hard marks only nine years ago are suspicious of European economic and monetary union. Those aged between 45 and 59 were also strongly sceptical: 75 per cent said that the euro was a weak currency.

Blair tries to bury the currency issue

BY ROLAND WATSON, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT





Euro sweets prove success TONY BLAIR yesterday urged voters not to turn Thursday's European elections into a referendum on the single currency, amid Labour fears that the euro could prove a vote-loser for the party.

Mr Blair said the health of the euro should not influence how people vote. He said voters would have a chance to give their verdict on monetary union when the Government called a referendum on the issue, and instead asked the electorate to judge the Government this week on the "constructive" role he had forged for Britain in Europe.

However, the Conservatives are poised to push the single currency to the heart of their final drive in an effort to ensure that it dominates the last three days of campaigning.

The Tories' last election broadcast, to be shown tonight, will focus on Labour's support for the euro and tomorrow Mr Hague will unveil an election poster which states: "The pound is only safe with the Conservatives."

Mr Hague will also use two campaign rallies, in the West Midlands tomorrow and in London on Wednesday, to make a final pitch to voters who normally back Labour or the Liberal Democrats but who have reservations about the future of sterling.

Labour will seek to inject some life into its campaign today when John Prescott takes to the "battle bus" that he used during the 1997 general election. With the turnout predicted to be the lowest ever at around 25 per cent, Labour will also use Mo Mowlam, the Northern Ireland Secretary and one of the most popular ministers with the public, to front today's press conference.

Following its failure to sign up Alex Ferguson, the Manchester United manager, for the Euro campaign, Labour will feature Lisa Potts, the former teacher who was awarded the George Medal for her bravery in a machete attack, in the party's last election broadcast tomorrow.


Usul
Garden of the Book of Gold
http://plants-magazine.com/chelsea99/sultan.htmlReview
"I have to admit that my favourite garden was The Garden
Of The Book Of Gold by His Highness Shaikh Zayed bin
Sultan Al-Nahyan. One couldn't fail to be moved by the
sense of tranquillity and reverence which emanated from
this temple-like garden with the centrepiece of the gold
engraved marble structure. It wasn't a coincidence that the
water feature leading our eyes to the book of gold look
resembled the aisle leading up to an altar in any church we
may know.

Strong links to Muslim and Christian faiths was carefully
combined to a wonderful effect. The 12 beautiful and
proud palm trees mirrored the 12 apostles. The reverent
tone was set by Phoenix dactylifera with citrus and
Ptychosperma providing the secondary planting. Native
desert plants were also planted. As the official press
release stated, "The garden demonstrates an air of
tranquillity and calm. Water creates the feeling of coolness
and arbours face the reflecting pool allowing for repose
and quiet contemplation". If there has even been a truly
accurate description of anything, then this was it.

As with Arabella Lennox-Boyd's winning garden last year,
the Garden Of The Book Of Gold made one feel as if the
hustle and bustle all around was simply non-existent - the
garden demanded your attention in a kind and benevolent
way as if seemed to pulsate a profound sense of
tranquillity. The memory of this truly inspiring garden is one
which I will be privileged to treasure for many years.
Incidentally, after Chelsea '99, the Garden Of The Book Of
Gold will be reconstructed at a property of His Highness! "
http://members.aol.com/netgarden/chelsea2.html

Inspiration
http://www.netrox.net/~mjtaylor/adhem.html
SteveH
BIS
http://www.afr.com.au/content/990607/market/markets3.html Date: Sun Jun 06 1999 23:10
Goldteck (Long-Term Capital Management near miss demonstrates world market's vulnerability ) ID#431200:
Copyright � 1999 Goldteck/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
By Tony Boyd, Global Markets Editor The Bank for International Settlements has shed new light on the near collapse of the highly leveraged hedge fund, Long-Term Capital Management. In doing so the central bank to the world's central banks has shown how vulnerable the world is to another financial crisis and the possibility that it could strike without warning. In its annual report released today, the BIS said LTCM was perhaps the world's single-most active user of interest rate swaps. "By August, 1998, $US750 billion ( $1,153 billion ) of LTCM's total notional derivatives exposure of more than $US1 trillion was in such swaps with about 50 counter-parties around the world," the BIS said. "This swap exposure represented more than 5 per cent of the total reported to central banks by dealers vis a vis 'other' financial institutions in the ( June 1998 ) survey. "While the current exposure of its counter-parties was fully collateralised, these had taken no protection against the potential increases in exposures resulting from changes in market values. "Only when LTCM's dire situation became known in September did counter-parties start to seek additional capital. "The fund's efforts to raise cash by selling its most liquid securities were felt in markets around the world, transmitting the shock wave from low-rated ( non-liquid ) securities to benchmark instruments. "Thus even if the Russian default was the trigger, the turmoil of last autumn stemmed primarily from the build-up of excessively large concentrated exposures to customers who proved to be more vulnerable to market, credit and liquidity risks than had been supposed." The BIS said that the LTCM crisis revealed the inadequacy of information supplied by leveraged investors to the extent of their market-risk exposures, the nature of their trading strategies and the validity of their risk management methodologies. "This ( the LTCM crisis ) showed that core financial markets are insulted less then ever from crises that appear at the periphery of the system." It said that existing statistical frameworks could not be readily used to arrive at a comprehensive and consistent value of global positions. Although efforts are being made to improve transparency, "the conceptual and practical challenges should not be underestimated". "Pending a resolution of their issues, there will have to be continuing reliance on current data sources, with their weaknesses factored into market participants' decision making processes," the BIS said. The annual report concluded by warning developing countries to move cautiously in their dismantling of controls on short-term inflows and to guard against capital outflows by building foreign exchange reserves. It also highlighted the way in which international banks have become drawn into lending which is not based upon relationships, a trend that is exacerbating market risks. "Market risk is more highly correlated with credit risk than previously thought, since market exposures are often built on leverage, and credit risk is also more highly correlated with liquidity risk than previously realised," the BIS said.

SteveH
Usul
Looks like it is just you and I this morning so far. August gold is now...$268.20 with very strong bids (40s).

Euro seems to be getting bashed just like gold now...hmmm?
SteveH
Maybe we have focused in on the wrong oil!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990604/gs.htmlIndian vegetable oil defaults possible - traders
BOMBAY, June 4 (Reuters) - Falling world prices might force Indian vegetable oils importers to default on recent purchases, mostly from Malaysia and some South American countries, industry sources said on Friday.

Traders said they did not rule out the possibility of some defaults having already taken place.

``Everyone is worried because defaults are looming now. It appears that a lot of April and May contracts are still not executed,'' one leading industry official told Reuters.

``Importers are rolling over their contracts. The market continues to go down and their losses are rising.''

SteveH
Always the same twist...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990607/it.html--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Quotes

^DJI
^IXIC
^SPC
^IIX
^PSE
0.00
2478.34
1327.75
289.98
546.56
+0.00
+75.02
+28.21
+13.22
+20.41

delayed 20 mins - disclaimer


Monday June 7, 6:46 am Eastern Time
China gold price reforms may burnish lustre
By Nailene Chou Wiest

SHANGHAI, June 7 (Reuters) - A plan to bring China's gold prices more in line with the global market could encourage better designs to lure more customers, but in the short term demand could weaken in the face of falling prices, trade sources said.

A State Development Planning Commission official was quoted by the official Xinhua news agency on Sunday as saying that the proposed reforms would involve revamping the ways domestic wholesale and retail gold prices were set.

Albert Cheng, Asia area manager of the World Gold Council, said price reform was a positive step to enhance gold's attraction as jewllery and offer Chinese consumers more choice, though not necessarily lowering the overall cost.

Currently jewellery manufacturers had no incentives to improve designs because gold prices quoted in retail stores included material and labour, he said.

By separating the charges, the gold price reforms would encourage improvement in design and increase the appeal of gold jewellery in the face of competition from platinum and diamond, Cheng said.

The World Gold Council estimated that gold demand in mainland China rose a year-on-year five percent in the first quarter to 55 tonnes.

Xinhua put China's gold consumption, including non-jewellery use, at approximately about 192 tonnes, which makes it the fourth largest gold market in the world.

Gold jewellery store managers in Shanghai said if the reforms simply meant lower prices, they feared consumers might shy away from buying gold at least for a while.

``Generally customers buy gold when prices were rising and held back when prices were falling,'' said a manager at Shanghai's Old Temple Gold Jewellry Company.

If people expected prices to fall, they people would be even less inclined to buy now, he said.

Currently world gold prices were hovering above 20-year lows at $263.85. Chinese consumers pay an average 20-35 yuan ($2.40-4.20) higher per gram than items sold in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore.

No timetable was set for the gold price reforms.

On the supply side, China planned to produce 175 tonnes of gold this year, up from 172.8 tonnes in 1998.

An analyst at a major base metal company which produces gold as a by-product, said China's drive to increase gold output had slowed in recent years because gold was no longer a significant part in China's foreign reserves and liberalising gold distribution was to be expected.

``The obsession with gold has changed,'' he said. ``Now other central banks are clearing gold from their reserves, it's time for China to relax the control.''

China's gold reserves totalled about 400 tonnes or less than three percent of its $147 billion forex reserves.

($1 equals 8.28 yuan)
ss of nep
NWO = New World Order
I agree ( 95% + ) with Christine.

The plot goes back at least 250 years.

And depending on the way you look at it, it may go back all the way to the civilization at Sumer.

Don't spend too much time on current events, there is not a great likelyhood that you can do anything about them.

The final Acts of the Play may be about to be performed.

Ask, if you do not already know, what controls the FED,
what controls that which controls the FED.

Follow the family trees and look at all the interfamily arrangements, and you to may discover what is controlling current world wide events.

QUESTION: If someone believes that the value of Au will increase Then why would they sell it ????????

This has puzzeled me for some time.
Tomcat
Gandalf The White: Y2k

Your post yesterday on Y2k illustrates a very important point that I tried to emphasized in my Y2k post. Here are a few key lines from your (actually Silverbear's original post) post:

"Like us, many other large corporations are now discovering or soon will discover that much if not all or their corporate data is saved on records which contain an "effective date" and a "termination date" which is what tells the computers processing their data, when a given record is "effective".....

....In otherwords, most Y2K testing as it's been done to date has not even identified this problem!"

Yes, this is the point. Y2k is a new problem for engineers and programmers and they won't understand the important problems until the start testing their work. The public has be duped into believing the the y2k solution merely invloves a change of date in the code. That is an oversimplification. It would be more accurate to say that Y2k is a word that refers to a class of hundreds of different date problems, many of which are still to be discovered. Unfortunately, many of those undiscovered problems won't be found until Jan/Feb and Mar of 2000!
Tomcat
Beesting: The worlds reality regarding gold.

Your post about the Jewler being unaware of what is happening with gold is "spot on" (pun intended). We forget how powerful the media really is. It sometimes feels that the world has a mind of its own and that the media's job is to hypnotically implant messages that soon become the worlds reality.

Hopefully, the internet will free us from our bondage of the media. After getting the truth, get you more gold!















FOA
Reply
beesting (6/6/99; 23:51:29MDT - Msg ID:7269)
Follow up to msg#7260 to FOA.

In the U.S. there is currently demand for certain skilled occupations;Doctors,nurses top athletes. These occupations can very easily legally work in the U.S.(with proper immigration papers) demanding and receiving higher wages than they may get in their respective home countries.Hence, a higher standard of living for themselves and their families.
Now, my point is,wages may not vary from country to country(as they do now)with the use of a single currency(Euro),in the long term,when workers are payed in Euro's only.FOA do you agree with this?

Let me put this thought in perspective for our North American friends. Example: A Canadian,or Mexican loses considerable purchasing power when exchanging their
Peso's or Dollars for U.S.currency when traveling to the U.S. In my humble opinion if North America and other Latin American Countries ever went to the all U.S. dollar system (similar to what the Euro Countries are doing) after a long time would an equilibrium be established?

beesting,
I see your point, and it is a good one. Yes, wages will tend to converge and compensate equally for each form of production and skill. However, this will only work if the money creation is under one "many government" roof, such as the Euro zone. Many point out that this is a weakness of this new currency and will pull the union apart. I disagree and state that it will become it's strength.

Prior to EMU, each country changed it's exchange intervention policy to the benefit of local workers, usually providing a loss to it's currency. At least that was the overriding game plain. Now, the currency will retain the favorable attribute of "management" with the control of "diverse government needs" and lose the baggage of "maintaining mismatched skill compensation". Yes,
some citizens will be shocked to learn that their "better pay" was the result of currency intervention, not their special standing in life. It will promote a bitter struggle over time. But, it will result in far lower inflation rates in the member countries where citizens had no strong currency.

In contrast, this dynamic is far different from your example of Mexico converting to dollar use. They will have no "usable opinion" in the money policy of the US and yet still retain a lower living standard. As an example, Kansas as an independent country? All labor and resources would be
exploited from that state for the benefit of the rest of the US.

Also, note that the dollar is well past the point of management. It's timeline has come to an end as it's debt has rendered it into a "collection only" currency. For it to regain any balanced reserve use, worldwide, it's base would have to be contracted many times over. A loss to US citizens that will never be allowed. Again, this is the very attribute that so drives the quest for Euro success. In
time I would expect many other countries to join the EMU and convert to exclusive Euro use.

The gold of Arabia has made this path, for them, a very level one, indeed. The coming free market in gold will, not only judge all currencies and nations for the entry status, but create a fair way to value their contribution to world trade. We shall see.

Please continue your consideration. FOA


Voyager (6/7/99; 0:40:11MDT - Msg ID:7270)
Sir, Excellent post!


SteveH (6/7/99; 1:25:42MDT - Msg ID:7271)
FOA, I am still trying to figure out your story of the rising sun???

Steve, perhaps best applied to NWO discussion?

"Regarding the rise in the price of gold, if it goes from 267 to $1,000 in three days, and then moves higher still, these excess taxes you mention make sense, but I have yet to see our government move that quickly."
Steve, on this issue, they will move no slower than with the speed of one who finds a gold coin upon a sidewalk!

FOA




USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: BIS Says Gold Will Not Fall Much Further
MARKET REPORT(6/7/99): Gold traded higher this morning after being unable to make
up its mind on a direction in overseas trade. The London Reuters gold wire this morning
reports some some selling in Japan and Australia and its usual chorus of nay-saying from
the London trading crowd. The yen is unusually strong today against the dollar but the
European currencies continue to erode against the dollar with the Kosovo peace talks'
breakdown having a debilitating effect. The British pound is in virtual free fall and has been
since the May 7, 1999 Bank of England (BOE) gold auction announcement. With the BOE
sales coming up in early August most traders believe that the price will be rangebound to
lower in advance of the sale and they may be correct. At the same time, there could be some
surprises. The history of official, planned and announced sales (going back to the U.S.
sales in the 1970s) shows that buyers tend to forestall their purchasing until the sales
actually take place. Already gold analysts are predicting that the first auction will be
over-subscribed. If the London sales turn out to be a closed doors affair wherein London
insiders are mainlined the gold and it never sees the light of day, then a sharp rally could
ensue off these lows. A turnaround could occur prior the sale if investors and market
players foresee a strong, ready market for the BOE metal (which I think is going to be the
case).

Along these lines, Bridge News reports General Manager of the Bank for International
Settlements (BIS) Andrew Crockett saying today "that despite sales of gold reserves by
central banks, gold would continue to play a major role in the reserves of central banks.
Crockett said that since most central bankers seemed not to want to sell much more of their
gold soon, he did not expect the price of gold to fall much further. In rather surprising
show of candor, the BIS warned of an overall deflationary bias in the world economy
despite "overheating" in the United States. "In fact, a generalized resurgence of inflation
seems less likely than further disinflation or even deflation,'' the BIS said in its analysis of
the state of the world economy in a Reuters report out of Basle, Switzerland.

All in all, it could shape up to be an interesting week.

The featured article in this month's News & Views centers on government finance in an
article entitled "The Financial State of the Union." I'm sure it contains many
surprises for our readers. There is a great deal of difference between what our government
leaders are telling us and the reality with respect to the government's books. This issue is
one or our best and most informative. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call Marie at
1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly newsletter
-- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
Nigerian ethnic clashes 'out of control'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_362000/362913.stmEthnic violence in the oil-rich Niger delta is reportedly raging out of control, with hundreds of people fleeing the fighting.

Stresses oil, and tests the Kosovo-precedent.
USAGOLD
Here's a wild card for you...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990605/bq.htmlChina considering devaluing currency in response to euro weakness!

Hadn't considered the competitive devaluation ramifications of a weak euro.
TownCrier
Troubled euro hits fresh low
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/the_launch_of_emu/euro_latest/newsid_362000/362933.stmItaly exacerbated the trend of depreciation, and the euro will remain weak if doubts continue over the ability of Germany, Italy and France to maintain budget deficits.

TownCrier
Bank of England urged to cut rates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_362000/362606.stmA union leader warns Bank of England experts that thousands of jobs will be lost unless interest rates are cut this week.

No problem. Just give them all new jobs printing money. See the fundamental flaw?
TownCrier
USAGOLD Market Report
MK mentioned UK gold sales in August. Most of us know he meant to say the first sales were scheduled for early July. This note is for those who didn't...

"the first UK auction on July 6"

TownCrier
Remember our past coverage of Kazakhstan's currency devaluation? --HEADLINE: Handing In Gold As Poverty Deepens
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/od/story.html?s=v/nm/19990604/od/gold_collection_1.htmlSuch good souls there..."the government would draw the line if they discovered that people were being forced to take part."
TownCrier
Related story, better than the first--- Kazaks Hand Jewelry to Government
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ap/international/story.html?s=v/ap/19990604/wl/kazakstan_gold_campaign_1.htmlAbout 1,000 Kazaks have handed over their gold jewelry to the government in a campaign to help the economy.

What? No greenbacks?
mike55
Footsteps and Y2K
I read IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GIANTS this weekend, and will say as others here have said, that this book is a "must read" which provides one with an understanding of the interrelationship between gold and oil. I read this book as I do all books (and discussion forums) -- with an open mind to absorb what is presented and to make my own judgement on the merits of the subject-matter as presented. Based on what I garnered from the book, I now have a clearer understanding of the "hows and whys" of the actions of the CBs, BIS, various governments' and banks' taking turns on announcing gold "sales", and a plausible explanation of why the cost of oil in the U.S. remains out of sync with most countries in the rest of the world. I found it so interesting that I read it in one brief sitting, and will go back and re-read it again. MK and ANOTHER -- Thank You!!

On Y2K, Tomcat's #7266 yesterday was excellent. Great job! As Tomcat states in point #1, the issue is intrasystem communication (and intersystem, too) . I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in automotive, aviation, tooling, etc. that say their systems are Y2K-compliant (whatever that means, as each one has their own interpretation), but completely miss the point of how interconnected all aspects of commerce, finance, and manufacturing are today and how things can slow down in a hurry when there are system-to-system communication problems. Simple example: If the average vehicle contains approximately 3,000 unique components, how many can be built if the supplier of, let's say radiators, has a systems communication problem with the vehicle assembly plant or an internal processing problem and can't furnish radiators for some period of time? How many vehicles can be sold if even appearance items like a molding or other piece of trim is missing? Remember, JIT inventories are lean and tight -- in general, no more stocking of much more than a day or two of inventory or raw materials at the supplier and the OEM. Stockpile ahead of time? How do you predict which of the thousands of parts or hundreds of thousands of suppliers will have a problem and protect for it? All the risk assessments in the world can't predict that which has not been experienced before. The "peeling of the onion" will indeed be a revelation. I believe that the unravelling of these types of Y2K issues in many fields will be a key contributor to economic slow-down world-wide.

Protect your wealth -- trade paper for metal and hang on!
TownCrier
Y2K report from the heart of euroland
http://www.latimes.com/CNS_DAYS/990606/t000050792.htmlSPECIAL REPORT: GLOBAL Y2K CRISIS? / GERMANY
Ready or Not? Some Shrug Off Problem, Others Fear Worst
TownCrier
''I've seen some people pale physically when the information hits.''
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/157/metro/Ready_for_anything+.shtmlReady for anything: Some N.E. towns are gearing up for Y2K, disaster
(a fairly good article)
Tomcat
mike55: Y2k and suppliers

Mike you have made some very good points about the supply chain and Just In Time inventories. I have found that very few people have any idea how many suppliers are needed to get a fairly simple manufacturing job done and how delays in parts can mess up the entire system. GM might need a fairly simple circuit board but the manufacturer of that board might depend on 50 or 100 suppliers. Each of those suppliers depend on several suppliers.

Just short delays at each supply level can create much longer delays at the final manufacturing plant. People don't realize the delays can grow. Supplier #1 can have a week delay which forces supplier #2 to retool and work on another product resulting in a three week delay. This delay forces supplier #3 to retool and work on another product a have a five week delay. Supplier #4, finding out the will be a five week delay, lays off some workers and shuts down part of a shop for a six weeks and then loses a week or two getting it started again. This is a non-linear chain reaction!

For my business I had to study Y2k for a year and advise my clients. In that year I found very few companies that were dealing with the supplier problem. They were spending millions on y2k and spending only $20K on surveys of thier suppliers which would only get a 50% response! Buyers would shrug their shoulder and say, "Oh well, it will all work out in the long run". They are right. A very "long run"!

One last thought. In high tech manufacturing, like in chip manufacturing, it sometimes takes months and even a year to change suppliers. And those chips a critical to millions of products. Millions.

I won't have a year to wait around but I'll have gold. Get thee some more!
TownCrier
Bridge NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold flat after 5-day high
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 7--COMEX Aug gold futures settled unchanged at $267.20 per
ounce after edging to a 5-day high of $269. Traders said that gold got a boost
overnight as the dollar weakened against the yen and was aided higher in the
Europe session by supportive comments from the Bank for International
Settlements. However, after that, activity stalled and COMEX trade was extremely
quiet and dull, traders said.

General Manager of the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) Andrew
Crockett said today that despite sales of gold reserves by central banks, gold
would continue to play a major role in the reserves of central banks.
He said that since most central bankers seemed not to want to sell much more
of their gold soon, he did not expect the price of gold to fall much further.

On Friday IMF Managing Director Michel Camdessus said that any sales of
International Monetary Fund gold reserves will be conducted in a manner that
will limit negative effects on gold markets. Camdessus added that he is hopeful
a decision will be made on the sale of a portion of the fund's gold reserves to
finance debt relief before the IMF's annual meetings this fall.

Overnight in Asia, spot gold had rebounded over $265 resistance on the
dollar's slip against the yen. Gold's move down to $400 per ounce in Australian
dollar terms also prompted some buying, noted Tony Caen, senior precious metals
dealer at Credit Lyonnais Rouse.
Traders said that gold players remain nervous of a short-covering rally
given the overwhelming number of shorts that remain in the market. COMEX
commitments showed Friday that while short positions in the previous week fell
4,731 contracts, they were still at a high 88,396 contracts, compared to only
9,625 long positions.

However, with last week's drop to a fresh 20-year low still fresh in
everyone's minds, traders said that gold nevertheless remains vulnerable to a
further slide as negative sentiment continues. Traders noted that today's stock
market climb may have been responsible for sapping some of gold's earlier gains,
while in the meantime, it received little direction later in the day from the
dollar and the bond market.

Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.crbindex.com/
No further reproduction without written permission
TownCrier
Investors see Dow drop but remain bullish longterm
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990607/5b.htmlMore than three-fourths of investors polled said it was at least ``moderately likely'' that the Dow will drop below 10,000 points in the next six months.
TownCrier
U.S. Treasuries dip in lethargic session
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990607/6c.htmlTraders waiting for May CPI release and A. Greenspan's speech next week.

While the dollar needs outside data and speeches, gold itself is as good as twenty orators on its own behalf.
TownCrier
Currency tea leaves
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990607/67.htmlIMM currencies end mixed, yen near sharp peak, euro pressured by stall in Kosovo negotiations. (Which currency is principly funding this war, anyway?)
TownCrier
Big Session, Little Session: Rally Comes on Miserable Volume
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/marketroundup/754192.htmlNew York Stock Exchange trading saw its second-lowest level of the year.
TownCrier
Behind the Scenes: FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES 1964-1968
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_viii/185_199.htmlGold related excerpt (four memos) that you may find revealing about the mechanics of important decisions during troubled times. Apologies for length...but you should read this, particularly the last one.
-----------------------------
187. Memorandum From the President's Special Assistant (Rostow) to President Johnson/1/
Washington, March 9, 1968, 4:45 p.m.

[/1/Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Subject File, 1968 Balance of Payments Programs, Memos and Miscellaneous [1 of 2], Box 4. Secret. A handwritten notation next to the dateline on the source text reads: "Rec'd 4:46 p."]

SUBJECT
The Gold Issue

Walter Heller gave me a rundown on last night's meeting of the Dillon Committee. (Sec. Fowler's Advisory Committee, consisting of: Dillon, Roosa, Heller, Kermit Gordon, David Rockefeller, Edward Bernstein, Frazer Wilde, Andre Mayer, and Bator.) They met informally in New York to go over the options on gold and the balance of payments and will report to Sec. Fowler.

Their conclusions were:

1. The tax bill is a must. They agree on a strong public statement which they will release next week after going over it with Fowler.

2. They are unanimously opposed to an increase in the price of gold as a way of dealing with the present crisis.

3. Most would prefer to keep the present gold pool arrangement going but they do not believe it will be possible to negotiate with the Europeans the arrangements necessary (specifically, the gold certificate proposal) to turn the market around and restore calm.

4. They, therefore, believe we will have to close the gold pool operation and let the market price go. They believe it is essential we do this in cooperation with our gold pool partners and preferably at their request.

5. They were somewhat fuzzy on particular plans for getting non-gold pool members to cooperate and suggest we perhaps can use the IMF for this purpose. They believe we will have to act within 30 days and must have a clear idea of where we want to go and how we plan to get there.

Comment: As you can see, these views are not very different from our own. After the meeting of the Central Bankers in Basel this week end, we will have a better idea of what the Europeans are willing to do, what the prospects are of keeping the gold market open and quiet, and what would be the most orderly way of bringing about change. Deming returns tonight, and Bill Martin on Monday.

Fowler is working to get the gold cover bill on the floor of the Senate on Tuesday. Passage of the bill should help quiet things down./4/

[/4/In his Economic Report to Congress on February 1, President Johnson proposed legislation to remove entirely the gold cover requirement as 25 percent backing for outstanding Federal Reserve currency notes. See Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: Lyndon B. Johnson, 1968-69, Book I, pp. 136-137. The House of Representatives narrowly passed this legislation on February 21, and the Senate also approved in a close vote on March 14. President Johnson signed the legislation into law on March 18. (P.L. 90-269; 82 Stat. 50)]

Walt

___________________________________
188. Memorandum From the President's Special Assistant (Rostow) to President Johnson/1/
Washington, March 12, 1968, 6:25 p.m.

[/1/Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Subject File, Balance of Payments, Vol. V [2 of 2], Box 3. Secret; Sensitive. A typed note at the top of the source text reads: "7:00 p.m. meeting with Bill Martin." No record of this meeting has been found.]

Mr. President:

Here, as we understand it, is what Bill Martin found out and will report to you.

1. With respect to a change in the price of gold, the British and Dutch are inclined to flirt with this option. The Germans are wobbly. The Italians, Belgians and Swiss are strongly against.

2. He achieved agreement on the statement/2/ and the willingness to back the gold pool with $500 million, with another $500 million contingent. (At the rate the market in London is going, this will only last a matter of days.)

[/2/Reference may be to the communiqu� issued by the Bank for International Settlements in Basel on March 10, in which the central banks contributing to the London gold pool reaffirmed "their determination to continue their support to the pool, based on the fixed price of $35 per ounce of gold." For text, see The New York Times, March 11, 1968, p. 60.]

3. The Europeans realize that we all may face soon some quite unpleasant choices; but they are not clear about what these choices are and what will be required of them if we are to hold the system together. They are prepared to close down the London gold market and let the free market price of gold float. What they have not thought through are the terms of the intimate collaboration which will be required to make that kind of system work--especially how to deal with the consequences of a two-price gold system.

4. In the light of this situation, Treasury, State, Federal Reserve, Council of Economic Advisers, and White House staff people have been driving all day, at Ed Fried's insistence, to get in shape an operational scenario of the kind that is attached. The essential object of the scenario would be to get certain minimum essential commitments from the other members of the gold pool before the closing of the gold pool was announced. On this basis we could proceed in reasonable order to a monetary conference.

5. We do not yet know Joe Fowler's or Bill Martin's personal views of this particular scenario. But we will be presenting it to them either late this evening or tomorrow morning.

6. It emerged from the Basel meeting that the U.S. tax bill and the austerity of the British budget of March 19 are absolutely critical factors. Joe Fowler and Bill Martin have been working Mills over hard on this point. They are also talking to the Republican Policy Committee this afternoon.

My own feeling is that the moment of truth is close upon us; and we shall have to convert some such scenario into action within the next few days.

Walt

____________________________________
189. Memorandum From the President's Special Assistant (Rostow) to President Johnson/1/
Washington, March 14, 1968.

[/1/Source: Johnson Library, White House Central Files, Confidential File, FI 9, Monetary Systems. Secret; Sensitive.]

SUBJECT
Gold

Your senior advisers are agreed:

(1) We can't go on as is, hoping that something will turn up.

(2) We need a meeting of the gold pool countries this weekend in Washington.

(3) We want to negotiate the following package:

--Interim rules on gold.

--Measures to keep order in the financial markets.

--Acceleration of the SDR's.

(4) With the right kind of interim package, we could maintain our gold commitment to official holders.

(5) If we can't get this package, we would have to suspend gold convertibility for official dollar holders, at least temporarily, and call for an immediate emergency conference.

(6) This probably would mean a period of chaos in world financial markets, but it may be the only way to push the others into a sensible long-run arrangement which avoids a rise in the official price of gold. We are unanimously agreed that a rise in the price of gold is the worst outcome.

The decision you must make now is whether the London gold market should be closed at once./2/

[/2/President Johnson agreed to the temporary closing of the London gold market on March 14. A statement by Secretary Fowler and Chairman Martin on the closing, March 14, affirmed the U.S. Government's commitment to continue to buy and sell gold in official transactions at $35 per ounce and indicated that they had "invited the central bank governors to consult with us on coordinated measures to ensure orderly conditions in the exchange markets and to support the present pattern of exchange rates based on the fixed price of $35 per ounce of gold."]
(a) Arguments for closing:

--Avoid losing perhaps $1 billion in gold tomorrow (we lost $372 million today).

--Such a gold loss would further shake the confidence of central banks and trigger their coming to us for gold.

--Makes it easier to arrange an emergency meeting of the gold pool countries this weekend.

--Evidence of U.S. decisiveness.

(b) Arguments against closing:

--Involves U.S. taking the lead in throwing in the towel.

--Closing the market will strengthen the hand of those who believe the official price of gold will be increased.

--May reduce the U.S. bargaining position with the Europeans.

--Gives us another fling at the Gold Certificate proposal.

Walt

___________________________________
190. Memorandum From the President's Special Assistant (Rostow) to President Johnson/1/
Washington, March 14, 1968, 5:20 p.m.

[/1/Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Subject File, Balance of Payments, Vol, V. [2 of 2], Box 3. Secret; Sensitive. A handwritten notation next to the dateline on the source text reads: "Rec'd 5:50 p."]

Mr. President:

To give you a feeling for what lies ahead, I enclose two working documents:

--a scenario for negotiation with the Central Bankers of the Gold Pool and

--a draft communiqu� indicating what we would like to be able to announce on Sunday night.

On page 3 of the first document (para. 6) there is an outline of what might be in a Presidential statement on the occasion of the communiqu�.

After we met with you, Joe talked to several of us about the attitude of the Hill with which he has been dealing, and the attitude among the Central Bankers.

He describes the attitude on the Hill as one of almost anarchistic willingness to pull down the temple around their ears on the grounds that our budgetary expenditures are out of control. He feels that the Europeans have the same kind of feeling and cannot understand that our Executive Branch and Congress are incapable of generating a tax-expenditure policy that would keep us in reasonable order.

He is almost in despair about being able to negotiate a package without some sign that a tax increase is at least over the horizon; and he is in despair about getting a tax increase unless there is some kind of commitment to expenditure limitation.

I know enough to know that I have no competence in figuring out how this nagging political problem can be solved. It obviously goes to the heart of our nation's capacity to carry its external commitments; maintain the world trade and monetary system; and avoid a serious domestic breakdown in our economy.

But I did want to report to you this further conversation.

Walt
Golden Truth
"THE GAMBERS RUMOR" FOR JULY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please check out the poet over at kitco "GAMBLER" Mon Jun07 1999 I.D#441250. Sounds credible?? Remember "ANOTHER" started posting ther first.
Golden Truth
ITS GAMBLER NOT GAMBER OOPPS!
In my message poet should read "POST sorry keystroke error:)
The Scot
British Gold sale?
To All,
A thought has been tugging at me for a while. I would very much appreciate any input you might have. If BOE origanally decided to sell off some Gold in hopes of devaluating their money, so that they might join in on the Eurro at a more favorable rate and If this announcement has lowered the price of Gold and is devaluating the Pound. And, since the people seem to be very much against the sale. Might they change their mind at the last minute and cancel the sale?
Help me, am I the only one who feels that this might have been planned all along??? The Scot
mike55
Tomcat
Thanks for your affirmation of my previous post. Having spent the first 15 years of my career in a manufacturing position that required an understanding of the business from concept through production and responsibility for the results, I've learned a thing or two along the way. One of the things I've learned is that most everything in life is a process. Teaching, selling, buying, manufacturing, providing services all entail a process. Understand the process and you can improve it and change it as required. Planning and being flexible to change are very important as you know.

Now I wish to learn more of this gold process in the world's markets. That is why I appreciate the thoughts and input of all who frequent this site. It is clear that in the world of gold, the process of transactions, trade, and the relationship of gold to oil/banking/currency/commerce/debt/etc. are undergoing massive change (although I'm learning that some aspects have been going on for a long time). I will continue to study and learn the basics from those at this forum who have much more experience and insight than I, and then continue to learn and understand where we have come to today. The "rules" may change, but the objectives and desire to preserve wealth remain the same.

I have no intent of attempting to turn discussion on this forum to millennium events, even though I believe there's the probability of significant impact to many of our livelihoods. What I find of interest is that many intelligent people I speak with are quick to make this subject a very devisive issue. It seems that it is usually those who have much at risk in the market, in their indebtedness, in their particular line of work that are the first to argue the point and write-off any chance of a rational discussion. Most will not even acknowledge information that points to the possibility of problems. It is probably human nature of fear of the unknown.

Attempting to make some plans for the unknown is what brought me here in the first place. But I have since gained a new perspective of the world through the thoughts of those who post here. For that I am forever grateful. I wish I had more time to post and develop discussions here, but the demands of work and the time invested with family take precedence. Computer time for me should free-up as summer vacation approaches for my sons. As it stands right now, I'm getting booted from the computer as my wife and three boys need it for their work and studies.

Thanks to all for the continuing education!
beesting
Part#1-Why other countries are not backing their currencies with Gold-Part#2 Sic the IRS on the bums.
Towncrier#7300,
The part about taxation hit me at the wrong time,just got back from IRS local office and was informed we owe another $300 on 1996 return,grrrrr!!

FOA msg.7282, Thank you for your insight and response to my message from yesterday.If I may I would like to expand on your statement:
Also,note that the dollar is well past the point of management. It's timeline has come to an end as its debt has rendered it into a "collection only"currency.

Part#1--I don't think the U.S. taxpayers(most of them)are aware that the worldwide banking system is being supported by them. Lets go over this again.
Governments,especially the Japanese,buy and hold interest bearing U.S. Government debt to back their respective currencies and give them(the currencies) worldwide value instead of Gold. Why,because a 5.5% interest rate of return in U.S. dollars may equal 10% or more rate of return in their own currencies when foreign exchange rates are factored in.Therefore, the U.S. taxpayer is paying interest to whoever holds the debt instrument(T-bills,Bonds,etc.) This is really IMHO,where most of the tax money goes. Here is the number for debt of 5.6 trillion dollars at 5%, interest only: $280,000,000,000 annually.
Now,who knows what these U.S. dollars are used for once they reach foreign lands?(worldwide anything?) Please think about this.

Part#2--Sic the IRS on the bums.
Sic-means bite
Bums is an American expression used to voice displeasure with a group;In this case Goldman Sachs, and other brokerage houses,and hedge funds.
These entities deal in Trillions of dollars annually and avoid U.S.Taxation by use-ing the tax laws to their advantage.They as a group,could very easily pay all the U.S. taxes due,and pay off the national debt in a very short time ,if the tax laws were changed.
Example:1-Companies that receive passive income only(income from investments)don't pay U.S. taxes,only company employees when drawing a salary from the company.
2-Most large investment firms conduct their international business offshore(Cayman Islands and many others)and are only subject to local taxing authorities.
The reason the tax laws work to their advantage,IMHO, many in the U.S. Government,Senators,Congressmen/woman have investments that they also want to protect from taxation, so they have the power to pass laws to protect their own investments.
While in Japan many years ago,I discovered a different taxation system that worked well for them:
Companies and corporations pay all the taxes,from their profits.It's enough money to run the country smoothly.
WORKERS PAY NO TAXES ON INCOME PERIOD!!!
WORKERS DON'T HAVE TO FILE INCOME TAX FORMS!
Does anyone reading this think that would be a better system for the U.S.A.?
Permission is granted to copy or forward this post to any entity.........beesting
Tomcat
Mike55

Do indeed get back to this forum when you get the chance. Your background in manufacturing could be of great help in some of the discussions.

As for learning about the ins and out of gold in a way that will not take up computer time, I have a suggestion. Go to the archives of this forum. Print out a few days of posts and write down questions as you read. As you do this many questions will be answered. You can also use the hardcopy for future reference.
FOA
BIS?
Gandalf the White (6/6/99; 21:51:59MDT - Msg ID:7265)
Question to FOA
-----------Where in your opinion will Aragorn III's "Thunder in the night" occur ? --- Now we watch the Spot gold start out the week "Downunder" and move to HK before reaching London and ending in the US. -- Do you await the BoE, bailout of the Brittish BB's before the blastoff in the price of Au ? -- OR will the cause be from another tightning of the OPEC taps before the Y2K effect sets in ? -- Let us hear your pronostications on the timing of this event. Thanks for everything you have pointed the Goldhearts toward, and we shall all meet you sometime at the future world gold trading site in the East.<;-)-------------------

Hello Gandalf the White,
If we listen closely, I think Mr. Aragorn III's "Thunder in the night" may have just begun with a quiet statement. As USAGOLD and TownCrier pointed out today, the BIS is talking.

"General Manager of the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) Andrew Crockett said today that despite sales of gold reserves by central banks, gold would continue to play a major role in the reserves of central banks.
He said that since most central bankers seemed not to want to sell much more of their gold soon, he did not expect the price of gold to fall much further."

I suspect this statement is the beginning of a "threat of action". The WGC knows that (GW, read my last few posts) only two Euro CBs sold gold for "reserve alignment" prior to EMU. No public accounting was ever made as to the placement of that gold. It is no longer on the books, but did it remains in Euro friendly hands? Now consider all of the writing that analyst and officials have offered over these last few years, that Europe was unloading gold! Yet, after untold physical sales and paper shorts by dollar / IMF factions, the BIS states "gold would CONTINUE to play a MAJOR ROLE in the RESERVES of central banks"! I ask you, what Central Banks could they be referring to? Does the ESMB (Euro System Member Banks) come to mind?

Does this statement, "He said that since most central bankers seemed not to want to sell much more of their gold soon, he did not expect the price of gold to fall much further." really mean, if the dollar / IMF wants gold lower in price, they will have to sell gold (not paper)??? And, if they don't / can't sell any more real gold, the paper price will fall no further?

Further, as I have stated before, the current paper short position only has "credibility" if gold falls further in price. Otherwise, the paper is worthless as no gold can be delivered against it. Also, with the G-8 meeting about "derivatives" about to open the shorts books for viewing, this gold era is about to close! Watch Comex OI these next few weeks!

GW, the timetable will be as long as it takes for the next chess player to make their move. Not long, I think! FOA



Cavan Man
ss of nep
Good kind sir:

I ask you straight away; what controls the FED? What controls that which controls the FED? 250 years you say? Please enlighten this FORUM. You are in good company. Here, civility rules and we all value your opinions.
Cavan Man
(No Subject)
Dumb QuestionIf the Euro backers desire an alternative to the Dollar as reserve currency of choice, why not announce to all the world that the Euro is backed by GOLD? Thanks.
megatron
gold price
As an avid gold stock investor I eagerly read these opinions and hope for the best, but I fear anyone hoping to cash in on "the big one" may be very disappointed in the near 1-2 yr term. I believe we wil witness the most mendacious acts of fiscal stupidity and piracy within the next few years as the wheels come unglued. Remember;no carburetor has ever had as much nitro poured into it as this one so we're in uncharted waters. My hunch is that the economy is analagous to the expansion of a star. As it grows it eats through more layers of the underlying elements. Externally you see little diference, but underneath each element is being converted quicker than the last, ultimately until iron. When this occurs no amount of energy can be released to sustain the mass and instantaneous collapse is certain. Gold was created in just such an event, while paper is worth no more than the crap you fill your blue box with. Idiots like Greenspan, Gore,L Ron Hubbard and many others think they can "out-think" physics, but ultimately we will hit "iron" and gold will be a very nice substance to own. I havn't seen anyone filling their blue box with gold yet. Lots of paper though.
Ray Patten
Lease Rates
http://www.kitco.com/lease.rate.html
I think the daily precious metals lease rates are back on Kitco after a long absence...I hope for good.
Gandalf the White
Thank you FOA for #7307
The Hobbits and I shall watch the chessboard closely !! -- Do not worry, they never miss one of your posts. -- Now they awaken before dawn and look to the East to see if a "new day" is to arrive. -- They are ready, no matter what happens, as each now carries 480 grains of Au at all times.
<;-)
SteveH
Stay in bed, Aug. gold ....
$265.50.

from WMM on kitco:

Date: Mon Jun 07 1999 20:29
WMM (Deflation) ID#48217:
Copyright � 1999 WMM/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I posted this on the BGO board in yahoo. Thoughts here would be appreciated......

Sorry but I'm not buying the deflation arguement until convinced otherwise. Here are some of my thoughts yours' are appreciated.

1. The CPI number is garbage. Its for tourists. The fact that sizes are smaller, I'm replacing items twice as fast than 10-20 years ago because the quality sucks, and last but not least the CPI is politically managed. It tend to be overweighted on "import type" items. You will also note how "food and energy" is always downplayed unless it benefits a low CPI number.

2. I think the USA has been in a monetary disinflation/deflation mode since somtime in 1996 ( best guess )
Those countries that tied their currencies to ours ( Asia & South America ) got hosed badly. To add further insult to injury, the IMF went in and destroyed what was left of their economy. It doesn't take a genius ( or a Greenspan ) to manage an economy into low inflation when your currency is strong and the rest of the world is in the tank.

3. The world appears to be reflating and the USA is joining in expanding M3 by double digits over the last 1 year plus. Since we are reflating in parallel the USD remains strong on a relative basis. BE WARNED All those dollars sloshing around will come home to roost I believe sooner than latter.

4. The Fed's bias towards tightening is a facade. Around the same time they make that announcment they engage in a large series of coupon passes dumping more liquidity into the market.

5. With all this wonderful productivity in the "new economy" in conjunction with a strong USD and exporting nations in the dumps, one would think that the CPI should be negative. That is the consequence of real deflation. I prices should have been declinging say, 2% and instead the rise 2%, the the real inflation number is 4%. Again assuming you buy the CPI.

6. Political reality. Given a choice between a deflationary recession/depression and stagnant ecomony with inflation, the government will pick stagflation. It is less painful on the masses and they can hide from the real problem by blaming someone else. ( Like the Arabs in the 70's for the "oil crises" which was really a dollar crises )

7. Every government in thoughout history of fiat currency has always and everywhere inflated. Inflation benefits the debtor not the creditor. The largest debtor in the world is the U.S. Government. There be mild bouts of deflation along the way when it is politically expedient, but inflation is always the end game.

Thoughts?
SteveH
Aug. gold...
in the red $265.30...

Another kitco:

Date: Mon Jun 07 1999 17:46
JP (Commercial loans at US banks rose $2.7B last week to $948.7B) ID#237237:
With the banks fully loaned out, a rise in interest rates will cause illiquidity problems which will end up in massive defaults. Banks capital
is at minimum these days. Any bank runs will cause problems which may not be solved by the US government. Dollar shortages are worsening and the third world countries have just about given up on any future payments of principle debt. The IMF is loaning money to Russia so they could pay interest on previous loans coming due this year. What a farce.
SteveH
Hate to keep reposting but there were some good posts yesterday!
kitco:

Date: Mon Jun 07 1999 10:03
Gambler (Josef) ID#441250:
Copyright � 1999 Gambler/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I mention this date for several reasons. I believe that people who work hard for their money deserve to keep what is theirs and to someday retire in comfort. Governments are notorious for squandering and stealing the hard earned money of their citizens. Gold is the time tested commodity that best serves as money providing discipline for government leaders and preserving the purchasing power of its owners. I started accumulating gold stocks and other pms in August of 1998. Prior to this date, I was bearish on gold. The insiders, and there are many to a greater or lesser degree, knew that gold would continue in a bear market because of the gold carry trade, CB leasing, hedge fund/banking exposure, currency bailouts, Asian/Russian/S. American debacle, political agendas, etcetera. Recently, this atmosphere has been reaching a climax. I have been posting about the significance of the US Treasury yield and made some very specific posts about information I am privy to concerning the gold carry trade, hedge fund/bullion bank problems, hedge fund/currency predicament, etc. I can not mention any names but as you are reading this, an incredible war is going on amongst some very powerful and influential financial and government leaders. The particular gov leaders are viewed as complete asses by their financial peers. Some very bad blood has been developing over the past year between various foreign financial leaders ( China & Japan play a key role ) , some US and British bankers, German, French and US government political, etc. I have accesss to some of this information as stated in prior posts. Because I have been privy to information from a few in the loop, I have done very well over the years. Because I am tired of seeing governments steal their citizenry blind, I would like to see alot of investors benefit from this fantastic bull market in gold that is shortly upon us. I am very excited and have bet one of the farms on this upcoming explosive move. We are in the beginnings of a seachange in public perception of gold's place in the world. This change will be so significant that many will make millions in just a few years. Many insiders are now accumulating pm stocks because of what they know is currently in progress. Never was their a better time to be a contrarian. July 5th - July 9th will be a very revealing week. The masss will understand the new paradigm concerning paper currencies, gold and other commodities. The following Monday, July 12th will be very significant for gold and pms. I was very specific in a few posts made several months ago and of course was not taken seriously. I gave the exact date this time because it will be a very significant day for gold and its perception. Gold will finally take off because of the spreading awareness of the risk to world financial systems. Envision firefighters trying to put out fires as paper burns. ( Stocks, bonds, currencies, etc. ) Of course you can't take my word on this as you don't know me, but I will take some satisfaction in pointing out a very significant day for all to see. And I believe most will miss the launch sad to say. Probably the same ones who rode gold down into this abyss where we find ourselves now. My portfolio since mid Agust of 1998 is still up 22% after the continued basing in gold. So, although gold has continued to languish, its been an excellent time to accumulate pm stocks.

Good luck Josef and continue to accumulate gold stocks
SteveH
BIS
http://www.bis.org/press/index.htmPress Releases


BANK FOR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS
CH-4002 BASLE, SWITZERLAND
Press release Press enquiries: +41 61 / 280 81 88
Ref. No.: 25/1999E
7 June 1999

Annual General Meeting: Address by the President of the Bank for International Settlements
The following are excerpts from the speech delivered by Urban B�ckstr�m, Chairman of the Board of Directors and President of the Bank for International Settlements, to the Annual General Meeting held in Basel today, 7 June 1999.

At this point I should like to take a look at the global economy and consider some of the policy issues we face. There is now a much greater spirit of optimism about world economic prospects than was the case only a few months ago when we were all anxiously waiting to see what the fallout from the Brazilian crisis might be. It was not thought implausible that Brazilian inflation would get out of control, that Latin America would experience a renewed flight of capital and that the devaluation of the real would spark another round of devaluations, perhaps even extending back to Asia. With the memory of the repercussions of the Russian crisis and the near failure of Long-Term Capital Management all too fresh, the possible impact of such events on overextended global financial markets was another source of great concern.

In the event, none of these fears have materialised. The Brazilian situation itself appears to have stabilised, with the impact so far on other Latin American countries contained. Both the IMF and the OECD are now forecasting global growth of about 2�% in 1999 and further acceleration into the new millennium. The United States is expected to see an orderly slowdown, Europe to pick up speed, South-East Asia and Latin America to recover convincingly, and output in Japan to cease to fall. Asset markets already seem to be counting on such an outcome. Equity markets have risen worldwide, rebounding to record levels in the United States and Europe. Capital inflows into Asia, including Japan, have supported sharp increases in share prices, and a number of Latin American sovereign borrowers have been able to tap international bond markets within months of the Brazilian devaluation. Credit and liquidity spreads in many markets have also fallen sharply, albeit not back to the excessively low levels seen this time last year.

However, these favourable developments should not lead us to conclude that the danger has passed. Indeed, the principal risk at this point is that the sense of urgency in the need both to manage current problems and to prevent the emergence of new ones will be lost. This would be irresponsible since there remain some evident threats to international financial and economic stability and, perhaps even more importantly, there may well be vulnerabilities that are not so evident. Recall that the scale of the Mexican crisis in 1994 was foreseen by very few. In South-East Asia the onset, duration and scope of the recession were all missed by the forecasting community. At this meeting last year, no one had anticipated the extent of the turmoil in financial markets that would be generated by the Russian devaluation and moratorium. The way in which rising credit spreads led to losses by highly leveraged investors, liquidity shortages and the virtual drying-up of some markets was generally not anticipated. Let us be honest with ourselves: the track record shows that there are many things that we do not understand and cannot predict. It would be highly imprudent simply to assume that all will be well.

If many unexpected problems have surfaced over the last few years, many expected problems have failed to materialise. Whether this means the fears were not justified in the first place, or rather that problems have continued to build under the surface, remains to be seen. Perhaps the greatest of the unrealised fears has been that the US economy would slow down sharply before spending elsewhere had recovered sufficiently to support the global economy. This has not come about, in large part because of the continued strength of consumer spending in the United States. But the coincidence of declining private saving rates and a widening current account deficit is a matter of continuing concern. If investors became less willing to hold the rapidly expanding external debt of the United States, a falling dollar might increase nascent inflationary pressures in the United States, even triggering a hard landing. Fortunately, this has not happened, though the sharp rise in the yen in the third quarter of last year and last month's CPI statistics provide illustrations of how quickly the unexpected can arise. Another fear, again related to current trade imbalances, has been that of rising protectionism. While such pressures have been kept under control to date given continued growth in most of the industrial world, the challenge of maintaining an open trading system would surely increase were unemployment to begin rising again.

Another concern has been that equity markets, particularly in the United States but also elsewhere in the industrial world, might fall back rapidly and in a disorderly manner. With personal saving rates now near zero in many of the countries with highly valued stock markets, a marked decline could well herald lower spending and growth. For some years now, many analysts have questioned whether the expected growth of profit rates implicit in equity prices has not been unrealistically high. At the same time, others have asserted that technological progress and corporate restructuring provide the foundation for a new economic environment that will support significantly higher profit growth in future. The evidence to date on the validity of this assertion is scanty. In the meantime, it is prudent not to ignore an abundance of evidence that markets are prone to overshoot on both the upside and the downside.

The expected acceleration in the growth of global demand reflects the recent easing of monetary policy in most industrial countries and many emerging market economies. This easing, including that following the autumn crisis in financial markets, has been made possible by continuing disinflationary trends arising in part from high levels of excess industrial capacity. Moreover, the loans made earlier on to finance this expansion of capacity, in Asia in particular, still weigh on the health of the international financial system and have provided a further rationale for monetary easing in many countries. The recent experience of Japan reminds us, however, that the efficacy of monetary policy may be limited by the zero nominal interest rate constraint, particularly if prices are already falling and this is expected to continue. Concerns that an associated decline in the exchange rate might serve to export deflation to others may be a further impediment to policy activism.

Nor are these the only constraints on the use of accommodative monetary policy. What also seems to have been reasonably well established by the events of recent years is that such policies can themselves contribute to turbulence in financial markets. Easy and low-cost financing over an extended period may drive up the price of financial assets, even at times when the rates of return on the underlying real assets are declining. This is what happened in Japan in the late 1980s and in South-East Asia subsequently, and may help explain the sharp rebound in equity prices in the last few quarters. Periods of monetary accommodation may also lead to a more cavalier attitude to risk-taking on the part of lenders. Such tendencies are accentuated by competitive pressures to maintain or increase rates of return on capital. However, the build-up of excessive leverage sets the stage for the type of market turbulence seen in the wake of the Russian moratorium when investor sentiment suddenly reverses.

If there are limitations to the use of monetary policy in some circumstances, then other policies might have to be relied upon more heavily. Policies of microeconomic reform remain the top priority to spur non-inflationary growth. Given that the overhang of excess capacity will hold back investment in many sectors for years, it also becomes more important to deregulate and open profit opportunities in other sectors. If such opportunities could be augmented by more favourable labour market policies, which might themselves eventually build confidence by creating jobs, the potential for a significant strengthening of medium-term economic prospects would surely be enhanced. These microeconomic reforms could, in countries where medium-term fiscal consolidation is sufficiently advanced, also be supported by the countercyclical use of fiscal policy.

Given the costs and the difficulties faced in managing the successive crises experienced over the last few years, it is not surprising that considerable attention has been paid to how future crises might be avoided. One obvious insight is that affected emerging market economies must reform their domestic financial systems. Simultaneous restructuring of the corporate and banking systems, and a clear recognition and allocation of losses, is required if profitability is to be restored and sustained. Further progress in establishing a sound legal infrastructure covering both bankruptcy procedures and effective corporate governance would also seem very high on the list of priorities.

To say that the key to avoiding future crises in emerging markets must be found in domestic reforms is not to deny the international dimension of the problem. Excessive capital inflows and outflows did exacerbate domestic problems and steps should be taken to deal with the possible recurrence of such events. To begin with, the dangers inherent in adjustable peg exchange rate systems need to be clearly recognised. There should also be less hesitancy in using market-based prudential instruments to prevent the build-up of excessive external indebtedness. And finally, countries that receive capital inflows should also prepare for the day when the movement might reverse. Countries that are vulnerable in this regard should consider carefully the adequacy of their foreign exchange reserves, particularly when measured against their short-term external debt. Since large numbers of countries cannot build up their reserves by increasing their trade surpluses simultaneously, this would seem to argue for greater use of contingent lending facilities provided by the private sector. Given such arrangements, recourse to the new IMF Contingent Credit Lines would then add public sector to private sector affirmation that the domestic policies being followed by the borrowing country are sensible and sustainable.

If domestic self-help is the best response, even to problems with an international dimension, part of the solution may still be found in measures to change the way in which international financial markets sometimes operate. While financial liberalisation and international financial integration bring unquestioned benefits, they can also be subject to episodes of excessive risk-taking. In recent years, there does seem to have been imprudent lending, and not just to emerging market economies but also to borrowers within the industrial world. In part this has been spurred by competitive forces. These seem unlikely to diminish as financial restructuring accelerates. However, the potential of public safety nets to distort incentives and breed complacency can also be discerned and these structures should be re-evaluated. It is important that all investors are held accountable for their decisions. The international community should also ensure that all investors and lenders play their part in the resolution of any future financial crisis and, to this end, should implement, inter alia, changes to international bond covenants that would facilitate debt restructuring should this become necessary.

The events of last year have also made clear that greater efforts are needed to strengthen the functioning of markets lest market processes themselves add to volatility during periods of stress. The expanded role of markets in channelling funds from surplus to deficit sectors and for managing a variety of risks is one factor making this imperative. Information asymmetries lie at the heart of market failure, and the market's way of resolving them can give rise to unpredictable outcomes. Ensuring that markets have adequate information about national economies, the strength of financial systems, aggregate positions in markets and the financial standing of counterparties is important. Equally, if not more, important is to ensure that market participants' approach to risk management reflects the full balance of costs and rewards implied in their decisions. Finally, it is also necessary to consider the micro-prudential policies that apply to individual firms in a wider setting, including the potential for unintended aggregation effects. Internal risk assessment procedures must recognise the interrelationships that exist between categories of risk before, not when, markets are under strain.

The fact that markets are becoming increasingly global means that efforts to promote financial stability must also become increasingly international. One underlying theme of the many meetings held last year at the BIS and elsewhere has been the need to involve directly the emerging market countries likely to be affected by the decisions taken to promote monetary and financial stability. This reflects a very practical consideration. Implementation will be an even bigger challenge than setting international standards in the first place, and a sense of shared ownership will materially improve the chances of such implementation. Allied with other incentives for change, including surveillance by peers, the IMF and the World Bank, progress can be made if we keep insisting that progress must be made.

Let me finish by noting my personal satisfaction that the BIS, and the various groups and committees which meet here, continued last year to make substantive contributions to the pursuit of both monetary and financial stability. These efforts will be taken further, with the assistance of additional input from the newly established Financial Stability Institute and the even newer Financial Stability Forum. Recent episodes of financial crisis and macroeconomic disturbance underline how much work still needs to be done. Yet there is considerable comfort in knowing that the global community is addressing these issues in a serious and systematic way.
Julia
Voyager
Many wise words.. Thank you for sharing them with me.

Voyager, I have contemplated the life and teachings of Gautama Siddhartha, the Budda, while studying ancient India in the history lessons my husband and I teach our son in homeschool. Our study of ancient India introduced us to Atlantis and Manu, and the Indian trinity of Brahma (Creator,) Vishnu (Protector,) and Shiva (Purifier,) as well as Rama and Krishna, avatars of Vishnu. Passages from the sacred texts: Vedas and Upanishads, and the epics: Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita and Ramayana, gave us a poetic experience of the life of ancient India. We go on to Persia, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Greece before leaving ancient history this year.

I have always had great respect for all religions of the world and this history course is bringing to my little part of the world an avenue to learn about them. I have a sense of peace leading our son into this study whereas some Christians would not want their children exposed to them. And I respect my fellow believers� beliefs about that , though I find that I have the same hesitations to discuss this historical journey with just anyone to the same degree that I hesitate to discuss my journey with gold.

We study many creation and flood stories through this history course, not just the Hebrew writings we Christians more commonly study. And as we read them carefully we came to realize that alot of each story's elements are similiar to the others. One has to come to the conclusion that something BIG happened to and in the ancient earth and those times were told in many different ways through the eyes of human beings experiencing the same events. As was necessary, ancient history, or legends as we call them today, including Hebrew history, was recorded in the only way they had then, by passing them down verbally, generation to generation. What some Christians tend to do is compartmentalize God and Creation and "the" flood for themselves ignoring the vast amount of insight that other religions have into God's true nature, the ancient birth of mankind into the world and the subsequent events that changed the world around them (our y2k???).

Jesus of Nazareth taught his desciples that the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart and mind and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. The common thread between all religions, IMHO, is that it all starts with our personal willingness to look within ourselves first and become willing to be emptied of prejudices and opinions and worldly influences in order to become enlightened. Jesus put it this way, "in order to be born again".

We're not so far apart in our beliefs are we? But we don't need to believe the same religiously in order to walk side-by-side on this journey with gold. It makes for very interesting conversation when the POG is down, don't you think??!!! And like I said, I am hungry for more knowledge about other religions and the pieces of the big puzzle they hold in this world.

Peace and Gold to you. Julia
SteveH
Therapy anyone?
Sent my partner the 6820 post when he asked how gold was going. Haven't been sending him anything because of responses like this. Anybody else getting this?

Steve you are an extreme case. I wish you could see yourself. You have no
balance. Everyone knows their will be corrections in the market. The
difference between you and I is that after the STS loss I told myself I
would buy only stocks would good sound business models. You tried to reason
your losses instead of learning from them. You became entrenched in your
view to prove yourself right and the more you became wrong the more you
tried to prove yourself right. You have been wrong so many times but you
never try to learn from it. I wish you had the same passion in computers.
Please do not take this the wrong way Steve you are a good guy but your
compulsive behavior could be clouding your judgment.

--end--

Aristotle
SteveH...wow! Tough words from your friend, though I'm sure he means well.
"You have been wrong so many times but you never try to learn from it."

Try this variation of his thought on for size:

Paper currency systems have gone south (been wrong) so many times. Have you ever tried to learn from it? ---Aristotle
TownCrier
Most IMM currency futures higher in early trade, euro sharply higher after overnight low
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990608/o5.htmleuro performance should be measured against the early 1998 Ecu level of $1.08 rather than the January starting rate above $1.17
TownCrier
China Issues New commodities Rules
TownCrier
UK: Drive to beat Y2K panic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_363000/363761.stm"There's no such thing as guarantees in real life."
TownCrier
Blair and Schr�der unveil Euro vision
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_363000/363800.stmThe report suggests that public expenditure as a proportion of GDP in most European countries "has more or less reached the limits of acceptability".

Sound money requires sound fiscal policy.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: British Lose $700 Million So Far on Gold Sale; The Case of the Missing ECB Gold
MARKET REPORT(6/8/99): Gold got hammered again this morning in New York
following an equally disastrous session overseas. The Reuters London wire reports
"aggressive selling" in Tokyo and Sidney that carried over to London with gold testing
support at $263. With the Bank of England sales coming up, there continues to be a virtual
absence of buyers in the options and futures' markets. Once again, we raise the question
why any official seller of gold would announce the sale before the fact and drive the market
substantially lower. The Bank of England has thus far lost just under $700 million to the
market and we are still nearly a month away from the actual sale. Please note the virtual
silence from the Blair government and Bank of England on this issue despite the growing
opposition among the British people. As we have said here repeatedly, there is substantially
more to this sale than meets the eye. If we continue to hear reports of strong physical
purchases, the obvious question will arise: Are certain counterparties in the gold market
filling shorts of physical metal with this gift wrapped opportunity courtesy of BOE?

Bridge News files this less than clear explanation to the reduction in gold assets at the
European Central Bank:

"Total gold assets registered by the European Central Bank system were down 16 million
euros at 105.307 billion euros in the week ending Jun 4, the ECB said today in its weekly
financial statement. The decrease was caused by the unwinding of a technical transaction
between two central banks that had taken place at the end of 1998 in connection with the
subsequent transfer of foreign reserve assets to the ECB, it said. In addition, foreign
currency assets were unchanged on the week at 234.2 billion euros on Jun 4, the ECB
said."

How do you lose 16 million euros on an internal transaction -- particularly when the metal
is going up in the currency denominating the transaction? Did some gold leak out? The ECB
has made much hay about transparency and unambiguous transactions. Assuming that
Bridge News is not being deliberately opaque and ambiguous, we would have to say the
ECB is the guilty party in this regard. What happened to the gold? Meanwhile the euro itself
staged something of a recovery this morning on a comment by Bundesbank president
designate Ernst Weltke that "$1.08 was an appropriate reference rate for the euro."

The latest News & Views is at the printer and will be ready for mailing in about a week.
This month we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold market and give the
reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy market of the last
month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to what is going in the
gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this upcoming issue. It is a quick
and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for
a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly newsletter -- and introductory
packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
Iraq may hinder OPEC efforts if it ups oil exports
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990607/bay.htmlLast month, the U.N. Security Council indicated it would allow Iraqi unlimited oil exports, somewhat undercutting OPEC's widespread efforts at cut-back's and conservation.

Watch the tables turn as the old "oil-for-food" assistance program to Iraq becomes a "dollars-for-oil" assistance program to the West. Will Iraq become America's 51st state? (Don't take TownCrier TOO seriously...)
Tomcat
Steve H

Steve, I hope I am not overstepping my bounds, but since you posted the response from your "partner", and entitled it Therapy anyone?, I will take the liberty to comment.

Part of my work over the past 25 years has been identifying and eliminating negative people from businesses. Negative people mess projects up and lose money for all involved. These negative folks have intentions are always "good" and "honest". Right? But somehow, the those around them make mistakes of judgement. If that quote is representative of how your partner communicates to your or others then I can tell you that he is not only negative. He is openly destructive! Can you imagine growing up with a father like that?

I can assure you that it is a regualr practice in corporate mangagement to identify and eliminate negative/destructive people. This is an unadvertised activity but it nevertheless occurs. Any corporate leader who is not weeding these people out is doomed to failure. The fact that this practice is not talked about doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I known several people who are very very sharp but they don't seem to get anywhere. Many of them have the characteristic to put up with these negative/destructive types.

Some people hit others with sticks. Some use their fists. Others, in the name of help, use words. Sticks and fists damage one's body. Negative/destructive words penetrate the heart and destroy one's confidence.
Cavan Man
To Julia
What an excellent post to Voyager! I just can't get away from this Forum; shouldn't have stopped this morning. There is much to be learned from the East; so much about near and far Eastern cultures that is not taught in the West. You are wise to teach your children all good things that the world has to offer. Indeed, beginning in Sumer, we see common threads tying the ancient Sumerians to the Hebrews beginning with Abraham in the Old Testament. I know you understand the difference between "Revealed Truth" and philosophy(ies). I enjoy reading your posts!

PS: In your study of world religions, I suggest you get to know the Orthodox Church. Good luck on your journey.
Cavan Man
SteveH
Sir Tomcat is exactly right on. I know a lot of people just like your friend. I try to avoid them. Your posts reflect much intellect, understanding and knowledge. I really look forward to seeing "SteveH" at this Forum. Best regards...
USAGOLD
Correction
Please substitute this sentence in today's report:

"With the Bank of England sales coming up, there continues to be a virtual absence of aggressive buying in the options and futures' markets."
JCTex
SteveH
Lately, I have been in and out of town an awful lot [problems with an 89 year old mother]. Have relyed on usagold to get me back up to speed whenever I return. You, and several others deserve a very real "thank you" from me. As far as I am concerned, your "partner" seems to be in love with the wrong guy.
By the way, you were a very busy boy this morning....thanks.
TownCrier
Richmond Fed's Owens says wages rising sharply
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990608/t9.html"Now, undeniably, whether we look at manufacturing sector, whether we look at retail or the services sector in our district, we're seeing prices moving up."
Xavier
BIS accounting: why $208?
http://www.bis.org/about/index.htm Hello all kind sirs and ladies. Looking on the BIS web-site:
"The BIS employs the gold franc solely as a unit of account for balance sheet purposes, assets and liabilities in US dollars being converted into gold francs at the fixed rate of US$ 208 per ounce of fine gold ( approximately equivalent to 1 gold franc = US$ 1.94 ) and all other items in currencies being converted into gold francs on the basis of market rates against the US dollar."
I find it curious that a seemingly arbitary number of US $208 was chosen. Is it arbitary? I hope so! Any of you have an inkling as to why?

By the way, Steve and FOA: I have been going through your posts to make a A3 sized flow chart of the gold carry trade ( CB's to BB's to Mining Co's, arrows of intrigue linking up Gavyn Davies to Goldman Sachs and Blair/BOE, Greenspan to BIS etc - all very exciting stuff which I thank you both profusely. )
TownCrier
Gold knocked to fresh 20-year lows in Europe
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990608/uj.htmlRegarding Britain's first gold auction on July 6, a minerals strategist said, "I wouldn't rate it higher than say a 50 percent probability that someone might put in a crazy bid. It's a small amount of gold being offered."

A "small amount of gold" that has somehow managed to stand the market on its head...
Prediction: auction will be oversubscribed at prices well above spot. This is metal, not paper that we're dealing with here. Many will walk away empty handed.
SteveH
comments
JCTex. Mark is a good friend. He is just concerned. He is more positive than I.

Xavier. It would be good to take a look at said flow chart. Can you post somehow; what program to view?

Thriver
More ideas from people who live in large cities
http://www.theunion.com/news/N5Suadgo46150.htmlHello all,

Here's a link about a group who wants to
"call for a moratorium on gold exploration and an end to cyanide heap leaching - the practice of dumping cyanide on piles of low-grade ore to extract gold"

file this under "people who want to live their life, and yours..."



Xavier
Steve,
Its on A3 paper now, but I'll draw it on Excel and load it up on a web page, before the weekend, for your scrutiny and comments!
Aggie
options
I'm one week new to this site. very interesting!! wondering with all the short-sited people in the country, wouldn't this be ideal time to by cheap call options on metals? I think by late summer y2k panic will set in and metals will take off regardless of what the big boys want.
Aragorn III
I hope to post more in coming days, as time should allow. A quick response to Aggie...
"...wouldn't this be ideal time to buy cheap call options on metals?"
Although the feeling would change from battle to battle, when the war was over it was seen that truly, there was never an ideal time to be whistling "Dixie". Aggie, I hope you see my point.

got gold?
beesting
Towncrier msg.7333 BOE Gold sale.
The way the price of Gold fell today their may not be any bidders at the BOE Gold sale next month.
So,I'll start the bidding:
I bid;$9999.00 U.S. a peice for 2-400 ounce bars plus 2 slightly salty tasting large boxes of tea reportedly washed ashore near Boston harbor,dates unreadable.

Since the announcement of the BOE Gold sale, the BOE has lost about $1200 per 400 ounce bar.Real astute business people!! Something real funny is going on,or is the BOE dealing in HOT(American expression for stolen) GOLD!!......beesting
beesting
AragornIII
Good to see you back!!! Missed your input to the Forum......beesting
Aristotle
Highlights from yesterday--TownCrier's FOREIGN RELATIONS memos to President Johnson
"2. They are unanimously opposed to an increase in the price of gold as a way of dealing with the present crisis."

WOW! Officials NEVER use the word "crisis" unless things are dire.

"After the meeting of the Central Bankers in Basel this week end, we will have a better idea of what the Europeans are willing to do, what the prospects are of keeping the gold market open and quiet, and what would be the most orderly way of bringing about change."

In case you didn't know, Nixon's ultimate decision in 1971 to end the dollar's international convertibility to Gold was done WITHOUT the direct consultation or involvement of foreign trading partners. It was essentially "lightning in the night" (to borrow my good friend's popular term...Aragorn, I owe you a pint of Newcastle when circumstances permit!)

"3. The Europeans realize that we all may face soon some quite unpleasant choices; but they are not clear about what these choices are and what will be required of them if we are to hold the system together. They are prepared to close down the London gold market and let the free market price of gold float. What they have not thought through are the terms of the intimate collaboration which will be required to make that kind of system work--especially how to deal with the consequences of a two-price gold system."

Read that one twice, folks!

"Your senior advisers are agreed:
(1) We can't go on as is, hoping that something will turn up.
(3) We want to negotiate the following package:
--Interim rules on gold.
--Measures to keep order in the financial markets."
(5) If we can't get this package, we would have to suspend gold convertibility for official dollar holders, at least temporarily, and call for an immediate emergency conference."

Temporarily. A permanent disconnect with gold was not envisioned as possible, nor even is it now.

"(6) This probably would mean a period of chaos in world financial markets, but it may be the only way to push the others into a sensible long-run arrangement which avoids a rise in the official price of gold. We are unanimously agreed that a rise in the price of gold is the worst outcome."

Does time change perceptions?

"The decision you must make now is whether the London gold market should be closed at once.(President Johnson agreed to the temporary closing of the London gold market on March 14.)"

More lightning in the night!

"(a) Arguments for closing [the London Gold pool]:
--Avoid losing perhaps $1 billion in gold tomorrow (we lost $372 million today).
--Such a gold loss would further shake the confidence of central banks and trigger their coming to us for gold."

"(b) Arguments against closing:
--Involves U.S. taking the lead in throwing in the towel."

An admission that our money had gone bad due to mismanagement and poor fiscal policy...direct fallout from a costly war in Viet Nam--as evidenced by the final comments in the memos:

"After we met with you, Joe talked to several of us about the attitude of the Hill with which he has been dealing, and the attitude among the Central Bankers.

He describes the attitude on the Hill as one of almost anarchistic willingness to pull down the temple around their ears on the grounds that our budgetary expenditures are out of control. He feels that the Europeans have the same kind of feeling and cannot understand that our Executive Branch and Congress are incapable of generating a tax-expenditure policy that would keep us in reasonable order.

He is almost in despair about being able to negotiate a package without some sign that a tax increase is at least over the horizon; and he is in despair about getting a tax increase unless there is some kind of commitment to expenditure limitation.

I know enough to know that I have no competence in figuring out how this nagging political problem can be solved. It obviously goes to the heart of our nation's capacity to carry its external commitments; maintain the world trade and monetary system; and avoid a serious domestic breakdown in our economy."

America wrote international checks that it couldn't afford to cash. The piper has yet to be paid, and the scenario that has been thoroughly addressed by FOA can be viewed as a direct consequence of much of the fallout from this time period and onward.

Gold has never left the monetary scene, although many people are now not old enough to remember Gold as money. I think some people suffer from the Santa Claus syndrome
regarding gold being money. They romantically WANT to believe it is true, but deep down they fear it is a myth with which they might be deluding themselves. For those people, these memos are hard evidence that "Yes, Virginia, there really IS a Santa Claus!"

Wouldn't you concur? It is difficult to see such official discussions and entertain any further doubt about Gold. Gold is money. And while national citizens may be fooled during an extended interim "suspension of Gold as money," the international pipers will be paid in the end. Use your knowledge and time wisely.

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold dives $3.4 after 20-yr low
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 8--COMEX Aug gold futures settled down $3.40 or 1.3% at
$263.80 per ounce after plunging to a contract low of $262.80, which is
also a fresh 20-year low on continuation charts. Key to its fall was spot
gold's earlier move below $265 support, made against a backdrop of overall
bearish market sentiment ahead of the UK Treasury's Jly 6 gold auction.

Traders said that gold extended its early morning weakness throughout
the day, and became the target of dealer sales toward the 1430 ET close.
"I think it is feeding on its own malaise and potential buyers will not
come in until there is a sign the market has stabilized. While it is in a
tailspin there is no sign of this," said James Steel, analyst at Refco.
Bill O'Neill, analyst at Merrill Lynch, said that gold is showing an
"erosive technical chart" with lower highs and lower lows.
Leonard Kaplan, chief bullion dealer at LFG Bullion Services
described today's activity as "more of the same."

"As the market deteriorates, 20-year old charts mean nothing and
what's truly important are round numbers," he said. "The only people who
are buying it now are those who like standing in front of trains," he
said, referring to the overwhelming shorts, severe downtrend and fast
approaching UK Treasury sales.

"What you're seeing here is a very nervous market pressing lower --
there's an unwillingness to go long because of the obvious trend,"
commented David Meger, senior metals analyst at Alaron Trading, noting
that the UK's forthcoming sale is "looming like a dark cloud over the
market."

He said that there is "a lot of ambiguousness over technical support
levels -- what we're finding is psychological support. He noted that gold
prices are moving into "uncharted territory."
However, he subscribes to the growing theory in the market that gold
may see a strong rebound after the UK Treasury's Jly 6 sale. "In the 70s
we saw the lowest price before IMF sales and then the price rallied," he
noted. [Sure did! It rallied to more than $800 (in 1980 dollars) from a lower starting point--TC]

Meanwhile, total gold assets registered by the European Central Bank
system were reported down 16 million euros at 105.307 billion euros in the
week ending Jun 4, the ECB said today in its weekly financial statement.
The decrease was caused by the unwinding of a technical transaction
between 2 central banks that had taken place at the end of 1998 in
connection with the subsequent transfer of foreign reserve assets to the
ECB, it said.

While some market observers had viewed this news as bearish, both
O'Neill and Steel commented that it was in fact neutral. Steel said that
the transaction was made from one central bank to another, which nets out
flat, while O'Neill noted that the amount in question is not even very
large.

However, more bearish was a statement from the Australian Treasury
Department. Treasury officials said that while prices for coal, iron ore,
zinc, copper, lead, nickel and aluminum would likely start to "trend up"
in the current fiscal year 1999-00 (Jly-Jun) the price of gold is expected
to remain weak.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
USAGOLD
Aristotle & Townie....
I wanted to voice my agreement with Aristotle that those memos from the Johnson years are of singular importance to all of us and thank Townie for digging that up -- history viewed from behind the curtain.

It shows to what lengths governments will go to manage the gold price. It also shows that you can have protracted time periods -- going for years -- where the price is successfully managed at least in outward appearance. There has been much discussion of late among analysts about the Anglo-American connection with respect to anti-gold policies and its opposition to the continental European view. It must be remembered that only a few years after that string of memos, the Nixon administration did "throw in the towel" and the free price of gold skyrocketed and it all happened because of the relentles physical demand for the metal both by private parties and governments. I will say again what I have said so many times before here and elsewhere: There is much commonality with respect to gold policy between this era and the days of the London Gold Pool in the 1960s and early 1970s. The players are same (except now Japan is a player.) The policies (on both sides) are the same. The initial results are the same. The methods, however, are different. It would be reckless to assume that this replay would end any differently than the original in the 1970s. Already we see oil rising which is essentially a statement on the part of the oil producers that they want value, not just paper, for their resource. We see Europe continuing to hold to gold. We see inflation rates beginning to ratchet up in the United States and a burgeoning money supply. How long until we see the dollar in retreat? The next step will likely be devaluation of the dollar -- not formally as what occurred in the 1970s, but informally in the marketplace. i.e.

Here comes the Towel!

And I believe the dollar depreciation will be against the euro and gold. The Japanese, it appears, will do everything in their power to keep the yen cheap against both the dollar and euro and China appears ready to follow.
USAGOLD
Peter...
You can see from my last post which way I'm leaning on the Y2K capital flight issue. I am not on solid ground yet though.

Can any of our Y2K experts here help me with how Europe stacks up against the United States in remediation progress particularly in the banking/finance sector?
canamami
Spot Gold
Kindly excuse this stupid question, but isn't the spot gold market the market for physical gold - i.e., one needs physical gold now or immediate rights to physical gold, so one buys it on the spot market, as opposed to buying or selling a contract for the right to future delivery at a given price. If the spot gold market does reflect the price for physical gold (which is lower than the COMEX gold contract), does this undermine the theory that price of paper gold does not reflect the true market value of physical gold, because paper gold is manipulated downward? Kindly excuse me if I have made a crude error here.
TownCrier
U.S. Treasuries fall, 30-year yield rises to 6 pct
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990608/8a.htmlComment on today's low volume bond market: "It was just an absolutely boring day. It was pretty painful. It was a tough day to make a living."

Meanwhile, another strategist said "The market is just terrified that for the first time in nine years you have an inflation problem."
mike55
Wall Street or PPT Future Draft Choices?
http://www.detroitfreepress.com/business/qborrow7.htmRead the comments of a couple of Wharton School MBA students in the first few paragraphs of the linked article.....frightening. I can't believe these two guys represent the norm. God help us if they do.
Gandalf the White
USAGOLD's posting #7343
OK MK, the Hobbits are all ready to sit on the floor and learn your thoughts on the depreciation of the US$. Please explain your thinking of why the US$ will not be officially changed, and if not, how it will deflate. We all know that the Euro is backed directly in part with Gold reserves and therefore has far more value than just pure paper. -- But, please explain how Japan and China will distance themselves from the US$, as their exports will mostly receive US$. Now that the long Bond has hit 6.0% interest rate, will that not cause further increase in foreign holders of these bonds to make conversions to other international instruments like gold and the Euro. Is this how the US$ will be deflated ? --- More education please.
<;-)
Aragorn III
Happy Hour... A lesson for Gold hearts
Aristo,
Thank you for the kind offer -- a pint of Newcastle would be enjoyed as would the company. In that consideration, I offer a simple tale for all...

From experience, do we make an exit of the pub, or find anger to replace past satisfaction when a Happy Hour is unexpectedly announced? Do we cite poor judgement for the enjoyment of the early ale, and refuse more-- as was originally planned-- because the unforeseen opportunity now allows three-for-one?

Of course, we do not. The smiles widen, and the day continues. Good Sir, I respectfully decline your offer. While in my company, I can assure you your dollars are not spendable. I shall be pleased to do the buying until last call is made.

A strange pub, this one. Operating hours are not posted, and no clocks are there on the wall. No worries, as we get what we came for, and take what we get... Newcastles at the going rate.

A visit to a small shop while on travels two weeks past provided me with a symbolic token of misplaced livelihood. As I left the shop, in my palm there now rested one ounce Krugerrand, dated 1980. I assure you that it is no different today, at the price I paid, than it was when originally purchased in earnest by someone for $800 at that time. It was sold in capitulation (moments before my arrival), no doubt, for cash to chase whichever the latest stock to be trading at its peak. Events will reveal this person to have made but one purchasing error, as gold bought for $800 and twenty years early will be revered by generations as the very demonstration of intelligence and wealth-management acumen. And yet, Happy Hour is now called, three-for-one. Whatever is one to do?

got gold?
CoBra(too)
Veneroso articles on..
US Bond market-levergage & could there be an Orange County Crisis of Massive proportions @ the lemetropole cafe, also same author BoE Goold Sale...A Blow to market sentiment at GE!
SteveH your BIS post of Backstrom, while being an excellently balanced speech on the state global economic and financial affairs had some unusual,IMHO, clear warnings as to overheating US economy, accumulation of too much debt to finance US consumer and business and lastly rapidly escalating trade deficit.
Also I feel there have been dire warnings towards the hedge and counterparty community between the lines, which were illuminating. " It is important that all investors held accountable for their decisions ... and pay their part of the resolution of any future financial crises".
Do I read this as the first open, official rejection to the practises of FRB and PPT coming to the rescue of of the "too big to sink" counterparty, derivative gamblers?
@Aristotle: thank you for your history on the Ldn. gold pool. I guess I became a gold bug in the early 70's, when SA
Mines paid dividends, where you could recover your principal in a few years by yields only- anyway I'm happy to be here still learning. Pronounced CB gold sales usually mark the end of the PoG decline, as you and MK state has been a reliable contrarian indicator in the past, though this time the net sales to the market have been marginal over years or are you counting the leases, which effectively may turn out become outright sales? The psychological (intended!) impact
seems to have wreaked most havoc and still is. Anyway, the paragraph on the two tiered market already evidenced up to the end of Bretton Woods and the closing of the gold window by Nixon in 1971 bears a timely analogy to the present dilemma.
Regards CoBra(too)

Leigh
A Lurker Steps Up To The Table
http://www.usagold.comHi, everyone! I've been a lurker here for about a month and consider all of you my friends. I, too, am struggling to understand the mysterious ways of the gold market. I, too, have been purchasing gold, silver, and platinum as fast as I can get rid of those pesky mutual funds.

Julia, an article you might find interesting can be found at www.the-moneychanger.com. It's called "It Couldn't Happen Here" (in the Y3K section) and describes a hypothetical (but possible) rapid deflationary scenario. There are other good articles at that site.

I have a couple of questions I've been dying to ask and hope that someone can help me.

(1)If Clinton and his thugs should confiscate gold, wouldn't gold owners be able to sell it on the world market (and probably at better prices)? That's assuming that the Bilderberger gang doesn't outlaw gold worldwide. But then, how could they possibly do that?

(2) How does one go about purchasing Euros? I understand that they're sold electronically. If for privacy reasons I don't want to be on the Euro list, could I buy physical marks, francs, etc. and trade them in for physical Euros later on?

Steve H and Town Crier, thank you so much for your faithfulness in scouring the financial and political news and bringing to our attention items that could impact the gold scene. Steve, thank you especially for copying "Gambler's" post from Kitco. I've been noticing an increased sense of urgency here lately, and it is helpful to have some dates.

Leigh (a lurker no more)
Aragorn III
canamami, the spot price of gold is further evidence of Santa Claus for the doubting-Virginias
(With that, I hope Aristo does not mind my exploitation of his earlier suggestion.)

It would be difficult for any person to conclude that the spot gold price is determined by on the spot physical demand, though in theory that is at it should be.

The physical market is so overwhelmed, so dwarfed by the paper markets, that the unmanaged crumbs of metal that fall through the cracks must leave the dogs looking to the table above for insight into value. Finding only paper in abundance, no insight is found, and they are given away at such a paper price. (I am ever grateful for those such as Michael here that tirelessly sweep the floor for our convenient opportunity.)

You will see that as LBMA trades 1,000 tonnes of gold on paper in the course of daily business, there is no hope for the small voice of a bullion coin to call the tune. As such, Santa does walk among us these days.

You do not see a run on banks these days (let us ignore Y2K for the present discussion!), because there can be no visceral fear that the money has been over lent. The very nature of modern money allows for its creation through the lending mechanism, and by existing as account entries, the numbers can not physically "run out". Such is the wonders of modern banking, and the shortcoming at the same time--the currency stands upon the weakest of legs.

Enter the gold loan. These same banks that create money for a conventional loan find that the same process works well for a gold loan. These mechanics are topics of past and future posts, so I will omit them for sake of brevity here. The problem however, is that limited gold has been loaned/promised time and again to many entities. As time reveals these loans not to liquidate as they should, the formerly content holders of gold on paper now each rush to be among the few made whole by physical delivery of the scarce product...sweepings from the floor being all that is readily available. An old fashioned run on the bank, you might say! This paper functions as "modern money" for the giants among us. Gold at $260 they tell me? Let there be no doubt, Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus!

got gifts?
ANOTHER
USAGOLD (6/8/99; 13:57:54MDT - Msg ID:7343)
Mr. Kosares,
I again, thank you for presenting this forum. It does give the fair view for eyes "not so clear" in nature of world. Your thoughts, are smooth for all that touch. A needed display and welcome relief from common banter. Writing here does attract other persons of the "honest feelings" and "deep views". They do carry with them the "reality of life", a quality lost to many of this day. A
quality so needed for future defense of ones family wealth.

My words are slow for a time, as events move forward. Truth spoken once be priceless, spoken many times and value is lost. Time will prove all things, not the repetitive voice, yes? Later, my speech will discuss "what has just occurred" and meaning of such. These future events will demand much text and and thinking, wait we do.
I not mean to slow my good friend, FOA, for he does offer a great deal for the reading. I does tire even my eyes, at times! It is the fair say, I speak, for some require many words, others few.

Sir, I write soon again, on the changing tide. The new flood tide of gold! Another


Aragorn III
ANOTHER, your chair has been empty these too many days, now.
It is good to receive your companionship once more. Greetings! We are well met, it would seem, on the dawn of a new era through the rebirth of ancient truths. Gold yesterday remains gold tomorrow while all else changes.

Please return as your time and thoughts allow.
SteveH
Sent this to a friend moments ago...
Time must be nearing for gold's meteoric rise. Another just posted.
His message is clear with a hint of
desperate measure. An omen I feel. He seems to say, I will say this
once and once only (so you better listen friends -- that is my take).
Be ready.
mike55
Santa Claus and Common Banter
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/futures.htx?source=htx/http2_mwJust as I was finishing creating this link and to thank Aragorn for his words, I witness the return of ANOTHER! Please, ANOTHER and Aragorn, do not consider me so presumptuous to feel that I am contributing to these discussions. I am but a humble student doing research, merely providing an article on the futures pablum that is being fed to the general public. An excerpt from said article:

"People are sidelined now that we know these sales are coming," said Meger. It would make no sense to enter the market now when the price of gold is expected to be lower and cheaper later, he added.

Beowulf
Gold overseas trading
Kitco is showing gold up $3.60 overseas. Wow what a change from today.
SteveH
lemetropolecafe.com
www.lemetropolecafe.comLe Metropole members,

Charles Peabody has served commentary at the
Hemingway Table entitled, "Large Bank Exposure
to Interest Rate Swaps". It is a short piece so
I inserted some other recent Peabody commentary
at the end of his commentary.

"CMB and JPM are the two largest players in the
interest rate swap market"
"the groups most hurt by the move up in rates"
"fuel for the asset bubble is coming from"

For the last 6 months Charles Peabody has told Cafe
members to expect the following:
1. unintended consequences as a result of Alan Greenspan's
interest rate cuts
2. bond yields would have a 6% handle ( almost no one else
thought the would ever happen this year )
3. the bank stocks would correct 40% to 60% from
their highs
4. There are LTCM type problems that would surface
in late spring

Well, the long bond touched 6% today so we congratulate
Charles. If what we heard about the hedge funds was
on target today, it is very likely his other predictions
will become reality too, maybe soon.

One more comment about Charles. He still strongly believes
this will the year for gold bulls and he also believes the
next commodity index to surge will be the CRB as powerful
grain markets appear to be right around the corner.

Stay tuned. www.lemetropolecafe.com will be the happening
Cafe to hang out in this summer.

Le Metropole Cafe

All the best,

Bill Murphy
Le Patron

Le Metropole members,

Charles Peabody has served commentary at the
Hemingway Table entitled, "Large Bank Exposure
to Interest Rate Swaps". It is a short piece so
I inserted some other recent Peabody commentary
at the end of his commentary.

"CMB and JPM are the two largest players in the
interest rate swap market"
"the groups most hurt by the move up in rates"
"fuel for the asset bubble is coming from"

For the last 6 months Charles Peabody has told Cafe
members to expect the following:
1. unintended consequences as a result of Alan Greenspan's
interest rate cuts
2. bond yields would have a 6% handle ( almost no one else
thought the would ever happen this year )
3. the bank stocks would correct 40% to 60% from
their highs
4. There are LTCM type problems that would surface
in late spring

Well, the long bond touched 6% today so we congratulate
Charles. If what we heard about the hedge funds was
on target today, it is very likely his other predictions
will become reality too, maybe soon.

One more comment about Charles. He still strongly believes
this will the year for gold bulls and he also believes the
next commodity index to surge will be the CRB as powerful
grain markets appear to be right around the corner.

Stay tuned. www.lemetropolecafe.com will be the happening
Cafe to hang out in this summer.

Le Metropole Cafe

All the best,

Bill Murphy
Le Patron

August gold $264.40.
FOA
Comment
Mike55 and ALL,
Hope you understood that Another was complimenting everyone here for their fine posts. I think the banter remark was directed at other mediums. It seems I am the one that's overwriting at times??

Aragorn III,
Santa Claus gold prices for anyone that can get it delivered! You bet!
USAGOLD
Another...
Welcome back, my good friend. It has been too long and much has happened. I and many others at this FORUM look forward to your THOUGHTS on this most interesting of situations in the gold market. Thank you for your good wishes and timely return. The pleasure is mine............
Beowulf
Spot is jumping at his leash
http://www.kitco.com/gold.graph.htmlCheck out the graph. Spots jumping up and down like he's trying to break his leash. Go Spot Go.


Wait...what am I saying. I get paid Friday. Stay down Spot, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE. Those that have abused you will soon get their just deserts. Just stay down till Friday.
mike55
FOA
Yes, I understand. Thank you. You overwriting!? Never, IMHO. Now I listen and learn.....
SteveH
cross post
As it is relevent here:

Date: Tue Jun 08 1999 16:55
ORO (Jims - What is the official party line?) ID#71231:
Copyright � 1999 ORO/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All I know are the statistics support some market views and do not support others. As a former R&D Engineer, I can only say that I will tend to believe what is supported by statistical evidence.

e.g. The USAGOlD Forum postings from ANOTHER - up till a few days ago I did not believe at all that it was authentic, or that if it is that the scheme would work as planned. What brings me to remove some doubt from this scenario is that the main event in May - from which point many current trends started ( dollar, gold, oil, interest rates, stocks ) was the BOE announcement of their gold reserve sale. If these 415 tonnes of gold are the main event of importance in the currency and financial markets of an economy with a $10 trillion GNP ( currency moving almost 4% in one month ) , then there is some truth to the story of the currency chess game of the US and the EC. All the preconditions of a US centered financial crisis are there ( have been there since 1997 ) , with the recent money supply growth rate slow down in spite of continued Fed coupon passes being the sign of the fuze having been lit.

Rubin's resignation is the marker of the cracked axle on the wagon just making it over the hilltop. The first to jump off the wagon would be the driver.

Greenspan's comments late last month on the EC CB gold games ( sell to induce others to sell so that they can quietly pick up the cheap gold ) were a giveaway of his expectation that his lifelong dream of a gold standard is now a concrete possibility. The ejection of the soft money dissident from the Fed is another sign of the times changeing.

So.. there may be something more than a grain of truth in the convoluted story of ANOTHER/FOA. I give it now a believability factor of 40-45% - up from 10-15% before the events of the last five weeks.

Comments?

Cavan Man
Statistics......
"......there are lies, damned lies and, statistics."
Aragorn III
Canamami, I note that my reply (Msg ID:7352) to your question was incomplete,
my concluding remarks not delivered. More rest is needed, perhaps!

This paper gold used as a modern money alternative has a remarkable "split personality". As a contract, it delivers the value of gold over the span of years while at the same time bringing down the apparent value of real gold--this because it brings many years of future gold production into virtual existence in the market today. The "old fashioned run on the bank" will essentially be a "run on the world" for available gold metal. All eyes will at such a time return to the physical market to show the on-the-spot value. The Bank of England gold auction next month offers more than mere unmanaged crumbs of bullion, and helps to bring the physical market back to bear on spot value. Two items only I should be happy to see reported within the hour following the bid deadline: number of qualifying gold recipients, and lowest qualifying price for delivery to all. A crash-course education in the art of being human seems to be drawing nigh. I feel students of history shall be the best prepared for the final exam!

FOA--Yes. We agree on delivery! I highly recommend the "Newcastle" while the "bar" remains open!
TownCrier
Hear ye! Hear ye!
http://www.usagold.com/wgc.htmlTHIS WEEK IN GOLD has now been updated! Appearing at USAGOLD by permission of the World gold Council, click on the link above to be swept back through a week in time, viewing the world gold markets through the eyes of WGC staff from offices throughout the world.

(Hi ANOTHER! Glad to see you visiting!)
jinx44
What more can I do ????
I wrote this to a poster on another forum. I am weary of the game we are forced to play. I have worked hard to do the right thing and I have been screwed for it. this is not the country I was born in. I believe in gold and guns. I am tired of being the patsy for the govt. I don't care what happens anymore. My children will not see the end of the rainbow as I have.

The gold and money angle isn't the most sexy aspect of y2k. I'd much rather talk about guns and revolution. However, saving ones' wealth has got to be a feature of y2k planning. I am a corporate banker by trade. My family has been in the business since 1857. I hate banking. It is a game for criminals. I realize this after my whole life in it. Gold will defeat the fractional reserve system. I think that people should be in control of their own lives. The govt in the US is corrupt and will suck us dry. The only hope we have is defunding the monster by refusing to pay the illegal taxes they demand. I have always voted and written my congress asshole. It has made NO DIFFERENCE WHAT_SO EVER. I am following my convictions in this matter. I hope you do too. I no longer care what they do to me. My children are grown and funded. The govt must take what they want at gun point as I am beyond caring for their rules anymore. I have nothing more to lose. God bless us all.
TownCrier
More tidbits from FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES 1964-1968
8. Letter From President Johnson to Secretary of State Rusk
Washington, May 14, 1964.

Dear Mr. Secretary:
On July 18, 1963, President Kennedy, in a Special Message to Congress on Balance of Payments, outlined a comprehensive program to eliminate the deficit in our balance of payments, and stated that this nation will maintain the dollar as good as gold, freely interchangeable with gold at $35 an ounce. I have reaffirmed the July 18 Message as the policy of this Administration.

While we can take justified pleasure in our progress, the deficit is still with us and much remains to be done before the job is finished. It remains imperative that we continue to push all parts of our program to achieve equilibrium in our international accounts. Only in this way can we assure that confidence in the dollar will be maintained and that the United States will continue to meet its national objectives, both at home and abroad.

I count on you to continue your efforts.
Sincerely,
Lyndon B. Johnson
___________________________
191. Editorial Note
In their March 14, 1968, public statement, Secretaries Fowler and Martin invited the Central Bank Governors to consult on the gold problem (see footnote 2, Document 190). This initiative led to a meeting in Washington on March 16 and 17 of the Central Bank Governors of the seven nations active in the gold pool. The Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund and the General Manager of the Bank for International Settlements also attended these sessions.

On March 17 the Governors issued a communiqu� supporting the U.S. Government's policy of continuing to buy and sell gold at $35 per ounce. The communiqu� also noted the U.K. Government's determination "to do all that is necessary" to end its balance-of-payments deficit

The Governors believe that henceforth officially held gold should be used only to effect transfers among monetary authorities and, therefore, they decided no longer to supply gold to the London gold market or any other gold market. Moreover, as the existing stock of monetary gold is sufficient in view of the prospective establishment of the facility for Special Drawing Rights, they no longer feel it necessary to buy gold from the market. Finally, they agreed that henceforth they will not sell gold to monetary authorities to replace gold sold in private markets.

The Governors' decision in effect led to two gold markets, one for official transactions only with the price fixed at $35 per ounce, and the second for private transactions with the price freely determined by supply and demand.

____________________________
194. Memorandum From the President's Special Assistant (Rostow) to President Johnson/1/
Washington, April 2, 1968.
SUBJECT
Stockholm Monetary Conference
1. Stockholm completed another phase in the IMF Special Drawing Rights plan. It brings us closer to creation of "paper gold".
The central issue was whether France would be able either to stall the proposal or change its basic character. Either outcome would have caused an international monetary crisis and a major drive to raise the official price of gold. Faced with this choice, the other European countries joined with us to settle the remaining questions and put the plan in shape for the ratification process.

2. There were few differences between the U.S. and France's European partners. The main reason for compromises was to help Germany, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands take the political heat at home of dividing with the French on this fundamental issue. They had to be able to show that they were not knuckling under to the U.S. but were acting to protect world prosperity on an issue where France was unreasonable. This required a demonstration that they and the U.S. would go the last mile to meet French demands without prejudicing the plan or the quality of the SDR as a reserve asset.

4. The willingness of the Four to stand up against the French is a major political development. It demonstrates again that there are limits on how far de Gaulle can push them.

5. The French claimed that the system could not work because our economy had gotten out of hand and we were dumping unwanted dollars on the world. In joining with us, the Four showed they had confidence that we would bring our financial house in order and, specifically, that we would pass the tax bill. The tax bill has now become as much of a world issue as the controversy over the price of gold.

6. We are playing the Stockholm meeting not as a victory of the U.S. over France, but as a victory for the world monetary system and for reason in world financial affairs.

__________________________
199. Memorandum From Secretary of the Treasury Fowler to President Johnson
Washington, June 6, 1968.

Mild devaluation of the franc should not cause so much substantive economic shock that it would threaten the international monetary system. But the monetary system is in such fragile condition that even a mild devaluation could bring about massive fund movements--into Germany and perhaps Italy, where revaluation might take place, or into Switzerland for safety. Almost certainly, it would have an adverse effect on sterling, which is still very weak. The U.K. reserves are short and are mortgaged to the hilt. Much pressure on sterling could force the U.K. to float. Should that happen, there would be repercussions on the dollar and, perhaps, general monetary chaos--with everyone trying to get out of currencies and into gold.

Whether the monetary system, in its present form, could survive this series of steps is problematical. The U.S. might well have to cut the gold convertibility link to the dollar and float itself. And that would destroy the present system and probably badly cripple world trade.
_______________________________
Sounds to me like gold has been too vital to be lightly cast aside, even on the eve of a new millennium!
Julia
Welcome back ANOTHER !
It's great to have you join us again. You are missed when you're not here but your THOUGHTS! remain with us. It is a wonderful gift you have given us, a light in the darkness as we witness the signs you speak of. It is such a comfort to know you are well. I am like a dry sponge soaking up your wonderful THOUGHTS! whenever you are here.

Your place will always be here for you. Please come back when you can.
Julia (aka Yellowbird)
Voyager
Julia

Thank you for your most thoughtful and gracious response.

I hope to carry on this discussion later. Our company is going through a new computer conversion, all-new software and hardware, so my energy is nearly totally focused in that direction. Who ever invented the year 2000? It is a very expensive.

I am very pleased to see the effort you and your husband are devoting to your son. Our children are also our first priority, as I believe the other parents of this forum are equally devoted to their children. Both of my children now have a foundation of gold to begin their economic life. Perhaps the children of this forum will be the ones to bring the world to a more enlightened existence.

P.S. Have seen IMHO referenced here many times. What does it mean?




Oregon Geezer
jinx44 message #7676
Sir,
I read your message three times. I could have very well written it myself as I am in complete agreement. I love my country but I hate my government. This monster is completely out of control and it is going to get worse.
Last evening I watched a documentary on the Discovery Channel titled "Big Brother." It detailed the incredible snooping going on in England, Canada and the U.S. The data banks are being filled to overflowing with even the smallest aspects of our lives --- what we do, what we say, where we go. All of it goes in and is available to a whole host of gumment snoops. Key words in electronic transmissions trigger recordings, DNA samples are being stored without your knowledge, health records are being shared and, of course, the ever-present video cameras are all over the place. In London, for instance, it is easy to track your car anywhere you drive.
Think of the power a modern day Stalin or Hitler could have. This is the power the secret agencies of the U.S. gumment now have.
One of the final stages is to do away with cash and gold and replace them with electronic "money." Every purchase would be recorded. Your preferences, habits and "cash flow" are all up for study. From information comes control. If you are overweight by gumment standards and recorded on your universal I.D./electronic money card, that 1/2 gallon of ice cream in your grocery cart could be withheld "for your own good."
I am certain that my gold purchase of a few months ago is recorded and filed in some data base.
Like you, I no longer care and do my best to survive as free as possible.
SteveH
August gold now...
$263.10.


Julia
Voyager
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion

It is my pleasure to "talk" with you. Looking forward to more discussion when time allows. I too am busy, focusing on school after a two week break and preparing for next year.

But I'll be building on my child's future as we watch what happens with gold.

Until later,
Julia
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: Trees Don't Grow to Heaven and Roots Don't Go to Hell
MARKET REPORT(6/9/99): Gold continued its southerly trek this morning shedding
another 90� from the price in thin trade both overseas and in the early New York market.
Reuters reports minor short covering at the $262 level. Bridge News reports "heavy bargain
hunting" as the metal broke below the key 1000 yen per gram mark in Tokyo. Also gold got
a boost from incoming Bundesbank president Ernst Welteke who said that Germany had no
interest in gold sales and would hold on to its reserves "to see whether we need the gold
reserves for other purposes."

Gold has dropped nearly $30 since the Bank of England announced its decision to sell over
half its reserves causing a loss of $700 million in the value of British gold reserves -- a self
inflicted wound that has many wondering just exactly what the British had in mind when
they decided to announce the sale publicly and cause this wild run down in the gold price. It
is now beginning to surface that there is a split between the British treasury which favored
the sale and the central bank which opposed it. Terry Smeeton, as reported here previous,
who used to head up BOE's foreign exchange and gold desk, has come out publicly
questioning not just the strategy employed but the wisdom of the sale itself: "This is not a
policy I would have advocated when I was at the bank," he says. "It is clearly a Treasury
decision in which the Bank has had to acquiesce."

Frank Veneroso's Gold Watch newsletter, read widely by gold insiders, reports an
interesting twist to the even which first appeared in the respected Gartman letter. I though it
would be interesting to pass it along for your reference:

"There is a rumor sweeping through the markets concerning Mr. Gavyn Davies, one of
Goldman Sachs European economists[Ed. Note: at this point, for the sake of transparency,
we must note that Goldman Sachs is a long standing and revered client of The Gartman
Letter in New York, London, Hong Kong, and Tokyo, on the international equities, metals
and foreign exchange desks; thus reporting a rumor concerning Goldman is a bit more
difficult than would be the norm, in all honesty. None the less, the rumor is being given
such wide dissemination that we've no choice but to report it here] and a close friend and
economic advisor of Prime Minister Tony Blair and Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon
Brown. The rumor suggests that it was Mr. Davies who urged Mr. Blair and Mr. Brown to
prevail upon the Bank of England to reduce its gold reserves. The rumor further posits that
Goldman Sachs is short 1000 tonnes of gold for future delivery. We are, of course, not
privy to Goldman's gold trading position.The rumor, true or not, is becoming more and
more widely debated by gold market participants."

In addition to this interesting tidbit is a rumor from one of our sources that LTCM (Long
Term Capital Management) the hedge which required a high profile bailout last year could
be short as much as 1000 tons, not the 300 to 400 previously reported. Whether or not
these two large short positions are at the heart of the BOE sale or not remains to be seen.
Perhaps we will never know the truth on this matter, but it remains one of the strangest, if
not the strangest episode I have witnessed since involving myself in the gold trade some 26
years ago. The fact of the matter remains: These gold short positions cannot be filled by any
other means than to find the physical metal and repay the creditor. Gold loans must be
repaid in gold. As Standard Charter London pointed out in its report this morning: "trees
don't grow to heaven and roots don't go to hell" and so a watch out for some short
covering."

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
UK voters turn against euro
TownCrier
Gold at fresh 20-year low, outlook bleak
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990609/h6.html``Gold is not regarded in technical terms these days. It is causing a problem for technical traders; there is nothing for them to hang on to,'' a dealer said.

Good! It's time for them to step gently outta the way...
SteveH
August gold hammered at ...
$261.20.

Dow -53.
LT Bond yield 6.03%

Nasdaq 22.25

CoBra(too)
PoG in uncharted waters?
PoG uncharted or not - it's always darkest before dawn. It is painful for the longs, but how painful it is for the shorts I don't even want to imagine. We'll soon see some of the shorts panicking and trying to cover before the pack (cover on what/ - paper?) The physical is gone and sold - period.
This kind of open and gross manipulation of markets is just as strong as the weakest link in the chain - IT IS BOUND TO SNAP- (sorry for shouting).
I am convinced, this end game (battle)is coming closer with the day to be the last stand of the spin-meisters of paper markets. Yes, I'm getting mad, but never in terms to surrender to the jugglers of paper only in terms of getting more assured not to give in.
Never - go gold!!!

SteveH
Desperation (squared)
CoBra(too).

Agreed.

Gold in new territory and for what, the greatest paper chase in history whose ultimate outcome is physical gold delinked from a fallen paper market in which all paper holders will likely have wall paper that doesn't even match what they have already. A sad testimony to our regulators and our markets.

But what a great buying opportunity, eh?
Goldfly
Jinx44, SteveH
http://www-ai.ijs.si/eliza/eliza.html
For anyone else that be needing some therapy.....

Go ahead tell her your troubles!

GF
Goldfly
Uhmmmm...
That's:

....might be needing.....
beesting
Short history of Gold price-1979
http://www.kitco.com/cgi-bin/goldyear.cgiAbove chart gives monthly and daily Gold prices for 1979.Thank the fine people at Kitco for it.
The last time we were at this level for the spot price of Gold was between:
May-18 to May 21 1979-Gold price-$256.40 to $262.00.

However,think positive 1979 was a rising BULL market for Gold,here is the low price for 1979:
Jan.15,1979-Gold price-$216.85.
Here is the high price for 1979:
Dec.28,1979-Gold price-$512.00.

A difference of $295.15 per ounce for the year 1979.There was not nearly as much investment money around in 1979,as there is in 1999, trillions.When the GOLD BULL starts charging this next time don't you want to be a part of it?
P.S.I am in no way involved with Gold investments as an occupation..........beesting
CoBra(too)
Desperation? @ Steve H
Steve, Sir, I can only reply with an old Chinese quote:
"War doesn't determine who's right, war determines who's left!"
That's my desperation...
SteveH
Open contracts at near-term volume high
Today hourly contract rate on Comex is over 325 or more. Last hour was 577 and two hours ago it was over 600! August gold strikes into 250's but still holding 260+.

Normal hourly average volume is below 175 or less.
HopeingII
I'm becoming very confused
If there really is a war on Gold, ie, US$/IMF vs ECB/BIS,
how is it that it seems only ONE side is firing missiles
while the other is in constant retreat ? My very real concern
is that WE all may very well be deluding ourselves and the
simple truth of the matter MAY be that Gold is in very
serious trouble for a long time to come. I do firmly believe
that of course in the "LONG TERM" Gold will win but many
that frequent this form, myself included, may not be around
in the long term. Furthermore, depending on time frames of
course, many of us may in fact leave our offspring with
LESS rather than MORE. Forgive me if this post seems
overly negative but I am simply trying to look at things
realistically. Each and Everyone's situation is different.
Personally I don't have another thirty or forty years to
wait this out.

Any and All comments will be greatly appreciated.

Good Luck All.....
SteveH
Just an opinion Hopeing II
IMO, we are seeing a classic shakeout of all longs. Only the strong hands will remain, the price will spike lower then once stops are cleared, boom, off she goes. Physiscal will probably get sucked up at record levels at these prices. I suspect some of these folks buying at these levels will want delivery and if it happens en masse then game is over. Shorts are out of control with no gold to back it up. This is an end-game desperation move, IMO.

The Scot
WHAT IF?
BOE never intended to sell it's Gold, their real intention was to buy Gold???? Food for thought..The Scot
SteveH
Spot just below magic mark...
Latest precious metal quotes from 6/9/99 20:37
Precious Metal Last Change Change %
Gold US$/Oz 259.35 -2.90 -1.12
Palladium US$/Oz 352.00 3.60 1.02
Platinum US$/Oz 366.50 2.90 0.79
Silver US$/Oz 5.05 0.09 1.78

Scot: what physical? Where? none out there in qty.
sunnyp
Gold Vs Platinum
http://www.usagold.comHello all,
I'm new here and was wondering if Platinum Eagles is a golden investment for the future? :)
...since Gold is very reasonable and likely to Explode upwards, wont Platinum follow?
thanks,
Sunny
Gandalf the White
SteveH's watching of the COMEX
Thanks Steve for watching the MKT's for us busy folks! -- Looks as if GC9Q mananged to end at about 261.0, or about $2 above the low for the day. HUGE volumns! Let us watch the OI and see if it increases like FOA advised.

SunnyP --- May I first welcome you to the FORUM and advise that you go into the well lighted Archives and read a bit. You will find that Gold is "money" and Pt is "only a commodity". Better to do as Aragorn III and Aristotle advise and get the REAL stuff.
<;-)
CoBra(too)
@ AG & PPT
Take note: A man who drives like hell -
is bound to get there - IMVHO - Do not deviate (sorry deriviate)... go straight ... to 6,5% on the long bond and leave the rest (assured) to the market. It will do a great job to straighten out the imbalances you've caused - did you really need to rebuild the bubble last year? Why didn't you heed your own advice - you'd have been the hero of the millenium - now? Who knows - I for one don't even want to find out.
The best reputation only lasts as long as noone finds it non(-ir)reputable-... while the team is abandonding ship at excelerating rates.
Talking about renegades ... the sense of urgency is palatable!
Yes, St.H. I'm getting mad at the paper shorts, their counter parties, spin meisters of the CB's, the PPT's and all overt and covert market manipulators.
Desperate? -YES! - As it becomes public knowledge that these big boys will protect the hyper leveraged gamblers - in order to save the system (too big to sink - heard that before Titanic).
Systemic risks won't be allowed as long as US$(and some of the rest of the world) is not de-leveraged and credit expansions will go on until the last Dollar (balloon) will be pricked, as easy as the last virgin in the US.
Pop goes the weasel ... go gold ... make u some!


CoBra(too)
(No Subject)
Whatever I (have to) say, seems to stop all other conversation - so be it - sorry for having intruded!
Good luck!
canamami
Hard Evidence of a Physical Shortage?
What hard evidence is there of a current supply shortage of physical gold? Has anyone on the Forum demanded delivery of the physical gold represented by a gold contract, and not received the physical gold? If this were happening, would there not be a plethora of lawsuits concerning dishonoured gold futures contracts? If the spot market did not actually result in the delivery of the physical gold for which the parties contracted, how and why would it still be in operation?
Gandalf the White
CoBra (too)
Why do you not just let it all hang out! --- Tell us your true feelings. <;-) --- I do not think that the last few postings have stopped anyone from posting, I think that they are awaiting the last of the NEAP tides arrival to then see ANOTHER's forthcoming FLOOD tide begin. (It may well be seen in the volume on the COMEX today as pointed out by SteveH. Let us watch the OI and see. --- The Flood tide shall surely be something that we all may tell our grandchildren about.
<;-)
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold dn $2.7; hits new 20-yr low [sorry for delay...had computer problems all day!]
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 9--COMEX Aug gold futures settled down $2.70 at $261.1
per ounce, managing to trim some of its losses after a slump to a fresh
20-year low of $259.20 on continuous charts late in the session. Gold fell
on selling from New York dealers, although as the 1430 ET close neared,
some of them turned buyers, bringing the price up.

Traders said that gold continues to slide on a deteriorating chart
picture accompanied by an overall bearish market outlook ahead of the UK
Treasury's first gold auction Jly 6.
Its fate was effectively sealed as spot made an early morning break
below the $260 per ounce level. COMEX Aug's brief push under $260 in the
afternoon was also seen as a bearish signal, said one trader. More
negative news filtered into the market just before the close, as Merrill
Lynch analyst Bill O'Neill cut his downside gold target by $10 to $240 per
ounce.
Gold received little support as the dollar extended Tuesday's weakness
against the yen and positive noises this morning from Germany's Bundesbank
did little to stop it spiraling lower.

Bundesbank President-designate Ernst Welteke had today cautiously
argued against gold sales by the German Bundesbank. He said the effect of
gold sales on some of the countries that should benefit from it was
unclear. He also said that gold reserves could be used for other purposes,
but didn't specify their nature.

Meanwhile, on the currency side, one trader commented that if the
dollar had not fallen against the yen both Tuesday and today "gold could
be down by another $5."
Nevertheless, the selling eventually ran out of steam and Aug was able
to edge up from its low as one of the NY dealers switched course and
turned buyer, said traders. "The dealers were selling and there were just
no buyers," said one trader.

"It's a continuation of the same trend--we saw some supportive levels
basis $262 spot but we took this out in Europe--the spot market was then
more focussed on $260," said David Meger, senior metals analyst at Alaron
Trading.
He said that while some large dealers were selling, the price was
falling "more on a lack of buying" than heavy selling. "The market lacks
any type of a buyer right now," he said. Players suggest that any buyers
will be extremely tentative ahead of the Jly 6 Uk gold auction.
"It looks like $260 might be somewhat supportive for the time being
-- people are uneasy below the $260 level," he said.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
TownCrier
Russia Eurobonds seen up on Soviet debt nonpayment
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990609/bb2.htmlRussian Eurobond prices could rise further in the near-term now that the country has sharply reduced its debt burden by deciding not to make Soviet-era bond payments.

Nice to see that a history of defaulting is a positive thing these days. What a world!
TownCrier
Rubin warns U.S. steel import bill provocative
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990609/bdc.htmlThis doesn't look good... talk of a trade war developing.

If the premise of trade is to exchange equivalent values, what is the problem. Ohhhhhh, that's right...attempts at job protection, and protecting a southbound currency.
Technician
End of $ bull?
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlDown loaded last three days of commodity action after "enjoying" myself in Florida. Interesting markets. Still no buy in gold until we see a purging reversal. My guess it will be sooner than later. But, comment tonight is the sell indicators on the dollar that I have observed. First time in a long time. If true, gold bear market is doomed.
SteveH
CoBra(too)
Keep 'em comin' We all feel the pain, believe me. Somtin ain't right in Texas or in gold market manipulation to the n-th degree. System is under lots of stress otherwise it wouldn't be actin this way, 'tis a fact, imo.
SteveH
canamani
I agree. Must be physical deliveries aren't being made much on COMEX. They do post eligibles frequently. Same with coin market. I had asked another about this. Why aren't we seeing evidence of shortages in physical if there really is a shortage. FOA?
SteveH
OI Comex
www.goldminingindex.comSteve Kaplan--

THOUGHT OF THE DAY: Total COMEX gold open interest was 203,955 as of Tuesday's close. A reading at this level when commercials are heavily net long has always led to a major short-term rally. As confirming evidence, total COMEX gold options volume on Tuesday registered 16,857 puts vs. 12,433 calls. The usual ratio is 3 calls for each put; in addition, the options volume total is about four times normal, as is typical of a market at a major short-term extreme. Meanwhile, the Journal of Commerce index closed Tuesday at a seven-month high; this is one of the most reliable leading indicators for the price of gold. The final, best reason to be bullish on gold: William O'Neill, director of futures trading for Merrill Lynch, lowered his gold price target on Wednesday afternoon to $240.



SteveH
Time for a contest as to when gold will cross $300 again...
Michael?
SteveH
Best post yet
kitco by ORO (gold?):

(also check out 16:18 on kitco)

Date: Wed Jun 09 1999 19:59
ORO (BOE gold sales - the bank multiplier effect - the end of it is near) ID#71231:
Copyright � 1999 ORO/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
If paper gold is the equivalent of credit being oferred by a bank at an 11 multiplier, than the promise of 415 tonnes of gold are the equivalent of over 4500 tonnes of paper gold through this multiplier effect.

The question arrises from this "stand in their shoes" game:

1. I am an insider LBMA BB and I know I have dibs ( non-competitive bids ) on the BOE physical and I want to sell this gold before the bank does.
I go to another BB ( BB2 ) and lend them a gold certificate which I write.
Knowing that I am insider on the BOE sale I will not be asked to prove that I have the gold or gold equialent ( oil ) in the ground through an agreement with a mine
2. I now have a gold loan to BB2 in my hand and can now sell this obligation on the market. Second BB has a certificate that can be lent to BB3, whose obligation BB2 will sell on the market.
3. Before and during the BOE sales I buy back a BB obligation to make sure I am covered and don't have to bid high ( that originally came from my "printing" a gold certificate ) .
4. When most of the borrowers in the game are covered there remains only one and a bit more obligations to buy.

This way the gold is "pre-sold" ten or more times over. Since the process takes time, we see a steady decline in gold. The end result is the same.

I believe this can be done to some extent with any commodity and with any currency and is one of the reasons the $ in which they all trade is so strong though the banking system and the hedge funds have been creating money at an unprecedented rate throughout this period. The net growth of the commodity and especially the gold debt is small relative to the ammount initially sold - or promissed for sale. Since the rollover process takes little time going forward and the despiriting effects on the market are sufficient to remove buying interest from the public investor, the covering process can be extended for a long time.

Thus, despite active buying of gold by China, Japan ( cones to 15 and 5 million oz on each dip day ) , SE Asian individuals, commercial buying and Western ( US ) buying of gold, there is a sufficient supply as long as the institutional buyers are happy with paper gold.

Applying this to miner hedgeing: Using a three year production hedge with a 10 multiplier we get an initial "short power" of 75,000 tonnes ( which the banks owe each other - NOT THEIR NET OBLIGATIONS ) . Since the net short position over time will grow only in relation to the interest payed on the gold loans ( average of 2% ) . Then the annual growth of net short positions on 3 year's production is 1500 tonnes ( 150 tonnes without the multiplier ) . Since this has been going on for at least five years, the net short position should be 7500 tonnes over the mine production hedge and the total should, therefore, be on the order of 15,000 tonnes or more.
If the timeframe is extended, the ammount grows.
If the multiplier is smaller the excess over the 7500 tonne net producer hedge would be smaller.
If the lease rate is lower ( I chose this number by the eye ) this will also reduce this excess.

A few interesting behaviors of the mining community make this situation particularly profitable to the BBs and particularly dangerous as well:

1. As the market price drops, a mine will stop mining and processing the low quality gold ore that accounts for most of the resource and will mine the higher grade ore that is much smaller portion of the ore body and will produce more gold in order to keep the operation going - at this point the "cash costs" drop.
2. The net result of this process is depletion of the best portion of the ore body and early closure of the mine.
3. Once the number of mine closures reduces gold output beyond the increases in production from mining higher grade ore the physical mine supply is reduced. This seems to have been the case, as net production has started falling steeply ( 7% drop this quarter ) .
4. This stage is the "end of the game" as the forward sales are no longer possible because growth in future production can no longer cover the existing obligations or the interest they bear.
5. Once th price of gold rises the producers produce less of it because they transition to lower grade ores and produce less gold as the price continues upwards, until new mining capacity is opened.

One of the reasons the BOE had to conduct the sale was that contracts coming due could not be filled with expected future physical mine production and would cause bankruptcies in the BB community and undermine the UK banking system as the net exposure of the LBMA members is so large.

By the time the BOE sales are over, there will be an even greater net short position in gold and the BOE gold sales will not cover it.

This is particularly significant because of the heavy individual, Japanese and Chinese CB buying which is one way and will not come back to the market.


canamami
Reply to SteveH -Post# 7400- and Musings on Forms of a Gold Rally
SteveH,

I had a somewhat similar experience in a coin shop to the one you described some time ago, when I recently made my first modest, physical purchases. The owner suggested that, if I were an investor (i.e., he meant a speculator), he could procure a bulk order of gold or silver coins, with a reduced premium, thereby enhancing the chance for a profit. Given that my employment contract expires in less than two months, not a good idea for me at this time, but obviously he did not feel he was facing a supply shortage. Now perhaps he was referring primarily to silver, but my sense is that he was indicating he could procure both species of specie.

Next topic: We could be in the midst of a gold rally, but that rally is manifested by dishoarding by reluctant large holders of gold - for example, the BOE. Instead of a rise in the POG, we may be witnessing the elimination of an impediment to future gains later in the rally, or in the next gold rally. I know I speak nonsense to those who believe gold is the only true long-term money (I believe gold is money, just not the sole true money), but gold's current value as reflected vis-a-vis other currencies also matters to me. Hence, I wanted to share my theory, which I must admit is pure speculation.

A good night and pleasant dreams to all.
USAGOLD
Cobra...
All of us who are regular posters have had the sinking feeling that what we just posted was a conversation stopper. I know I have and having talked with many posters personally I know that others have had the same sinking feeling on occasion. I think you have to realize that, particularly at this site, you have a large number of professional people who come and go at the site when they have the time or inclination and are not always present to add their two cents in a conversation. Give your posts time to garner a response and brew in the minds of your fellow knights and ladies. Be assured that there are many who read your words even if a response is not illicited immediately. I have seen posts go for days without a response (including those by yours truly) and then somebody comes upon a relevant addition or response. I have learned not to take it personally.

I would like to suggest that these posts are like coining money -- make that golden money, of course. Once they are hammered by the minter and posted, they are there forever for all to see until such time that Y2K renders us inert or electricity is dismissed from the face of the earth. In other words, let it flow, Cobra, and don't think you aren't being heard. Your words are coin of the USAGOLD realm. Make yourself heard even though at times your efforts seemingly do not bear fruit -- it comes with the territory.
USAGOLD
My fellow knights and dear ladies...
I am taking a long weekend and I am in need of chivalrous service. Since I do not know whether or not I will have internet access, I am asking each of you to assume the responsibility of the Daily Market Report. Please enter your edition during the course of the day on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and the winner will be the recipient of a glittering one-tenth ounce Philharmonic. The two runners-up will receive a Silver Eagle. Please mark your entering post as *******Today's Gold Report (surrounded by stars) ********* The spot prices must be indicated except on Saturday of course. I have left a note at the Daily Market Report for readers to go to the FORUM for today's report. This awesome responsibility is yours. Good luck. We shall see if we have any budding Rush Limbaugh's out there.

You must enter a report at least two of the three days to qualify. They can be posted at any time of day but each post for that day must be entered before midnight finds the mountains.

(At the same time if I do have access I will post a report either here or at the Daily Market Report and the contest will proceed as outlined here.)

May the best Gold Report win the gold!
SteveH
August gold ...
$259.70. This sucks!

But what a great buying opportunity, eh?

I like this one too (something to cheer us up):

"Date: Wed Jun 09 1999 22:05
kapex (I sincerly hope that all here recognize the opportunity that ) ID#275194:
Copyright � 1999 kapex/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
is unfolding right in front of our eyes! The fact that some are BOLDLY stating how very wrong we are/have been/will be if we stay invested in Gold after it has already declined is the stuff of bottoms!
I'm so glad to see Gold take out the 20 year lows as it has shown sentiment for what it truly is.......out of the market COMPLETLY!!
A small group at kitco is all that is left. And now we have new and old posters telling us how very wrong we are. THANKYOU! The fact that every analyst on Gold out there is negative and no one can point to support lines on the charts is .......well music to my ears! Can you imagine how low these #'s will be ( as if there not already screaming BUY! ) tomorrow let alone how low they are NOW!

http://business.fortunecity.com/wrigley/585/Markets/AUAGBB.htm

Being a contrarian is not the sanest way to invest and it WILL get you there early more often than not, but if you can just realize for a momment that, if EVERYONE is on one side of something, then the logical thing is to take the opposing side. Sentiment Extremes of this magnitude do not come but a few times in a lifetime. Gold and Stocks both.
But oh yes, you guys and you know who you are, really think that NOW is the time to bail out of PM's and the shares, and what invest in the stock market? I don't think so.
Also some of those same people are talking about this from a trading standpoint and that really doesn't apply to most here. To those that are trading futures and options on futures I would agree that stops and such are warrented, hell I wolddn't play the long side of these markets with futures right now either. But that does not matter when you are accumulating solid mining companies and PM's at these prices! Especially when no one else wants them. It takes a strong will to go aganist the crowd. But when you see across the board pessimism as is being exhibited on the PM's, it won't be long. IT NEVER IS!!! Repeat after me guys........IT WILL NOT BE LONG! ...."
Gandalf the White
Addenda to SteveH's #7401
Mo from Kaplan --- The important item of OI increase!!! -- Note the 7,500 + increase in OI. That is the largest + or - recorded in a long time!!! Looks as if the Commercials are yelling to the shorters -- "oh no! don't throw any mo gold into the briar patch. Oh NOOOOOOO !!!!"
<;-)
PS: NOW looking for the "Thunder in the night" during a nearby day.
Gandalf the White
sorry -- got carried away and forgot to attach Kaplan !
Wednesday's COMEX gold estimated volume was a heavy 65,000 lots. The rollover out of the June contract is now almost complete, with June open interest down to 1,163 (as of Tuesday's close). Total COMEX gold open interest on Tuesday surged 7,537 to 203,955 contracts, demonstrating strong commercial accumulation on a day when gold fell $3.40, which is bullish. An open interest this high when commercials are heavily net long has always signaled a major short-term rally.
<;-)
Cavan Man
TWA
This is an airline company that has not made a profit in eleven years. The theory is that the debt carried is too big to fail. Could the same be said of the US? Despite our fundamental economic problems which have been well documented here, are we too big for the rest of the world to let US fail? I invite comment from all of the learned scholars who regularly post this FORUM. Thanks!
Aristotle
Hi Gandalf
We've sure got our share of lightning and thunder in the night right here. It's so bad I must begin unplugging my favorite appliances, computer included!

Just wanted to say a quick word of thanks to the world for these gold prices. It is always nice to see the coversion of my salary yield a raise (more metal!) over the previous month, even when the ol' employer hasn't paid a dime more. Gotta love this program!!

Gold. Make you some. ---Aristotle

Yo, Paymaster! Raises for ALL my men!
The Stranger
To My Friends at the USAGOLD Forum
If you were around in the '70s, you know that higher rates, per se, were not what slew the beast. After just about everything else had been tried, it was TIGHT MONEY that finally did the job. Eventually, tight money will happen here, too...but not yet. The Volcker/Reagan recession of 1982 was a doozy, but it was necessary to stem inflation that had been expanding for a decade. The current inflation is brand new. Few on Wall Street have even acknowledged it yet.

If you are discouraged, remember this: the road to worldwide economic recovery has largely been built upon dollar liquidity. And just as that dollar liquidity is refreshing markets around the globe, so is it fostering $20 billion monthly trade deficits for America. Now that Kosovo is winding down, watch how the dollar behaves in the foreign exchange markets. The problem is, most other countries are reinflating also. So where does one hide?

Eva Peron discovered when she tried to create wealth on a printing press that inflation is the inevitable result. She was an extreme example, yes. But the principle here is the same. For a time, those in power may succeed in conning the shirtless ones, but they never can defy simple arithmetic.
Meanwhile, if anyone watching gold prices hour by hour is agonizing over every downtick, I would respectfully advise finding a better use for one's time. Right now we are in an emotional panic that has absolutely nothing to do with anything except fear. How long it will take is anybody's guess, but it is not the end of the world.
Golden Truth
WE SHALL NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello Gentlemen, I've been watching the movie " THE BLUE MAX" In what i consider somewhat of a classic. To the point in one of the flying scenes " HEIR COBRA" machineguns jam and he only able to get off 40 rounds the odds are now 4 to 1 he does get away,but in a WAR you can't always win every Fight. That does not mean we will lose this War. The Paper shorters only know half of the story where as we know have been educated by the very best here at this forum. When the shorts do catch on it will be to late. Think tatics gentlemen, we know more and we will fight this thing to the Death!! Now gentlemen is a time for courage,fortitude and Bravery this is what a true Knight of this round table must now be. Think for a moment about all that has been revealed to us if you think this battle is something IMAGINE what the real battle front must be like at this point in time and space? Remember united we stand divided we fall. It is time my fellow Knights to put on our full armour and wage a mighty Battle against the forces of Darkness and slay the Dragons! This is where we must stand together for there are many more people out there that are truly suffering due to the lows being set in the GOLD market. We must fight on and be a becon in the night and their tower of strength for those that are to weak or have lost their FAITH. NOW ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!! Lets give HELL!! P.S All shorters must perish!! We will not take Prisoners, and may the glory be to GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! Golden Truth.
SteveH
August Paper Gold on the cusp...
$259.90 and that is the truth.

Good post golden truth.
T. Remital
Chart says"""
With all the negative talk in the chat rooms these days,
perhaps it is time to look what the chart is saying..
You may have heard of the term "slanting wedge"-We have what
I believe to be a classic DOWN SLANTING WEDGE formation in
gold. ...\...this is followed by a rapid rise../.. Many will
be left in the dust when it happens----
Usul
Japan GDP surprise? Or not?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/business_story.html?in_review_id=146708Japan's gross domestic product rose a breathtaking 1.9%
in the first three months of the year, dwarfing analysts'
expectations of a 0.2% gain. On an annual basis, GDP was
up a massive 7.9%...

I wonder... Could it have anything to do with this? -

http://ukr.seganet.com/saturn/serious.htm

"Japanese government to hand-out $175 vouchers to
'stimulate economy'
Japan has begun its first hand-out of
shopping coupons, part of a government effort to
stimulate the ailing economy. Parliament at the same time
approved a budget which will pump a further $700bn into
the economy. "

http://www.pathfinder.com/asiaweek/99/0219/newsmap/japan.html

Week of February 12, 1999

"MANY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS in Japan began
distributing government-sponsored shopping coupons.
To stimulate the economy, vouchers worth 20,000 yen -
$175 - are being given to children below 15 and bedridden
or low-income people over 65, some 35 million Japanese in
all."

The coupons were approved in November 1998, so
people had a bit of time to make spending plans and
perhaps production was increased in anticipation?
Goldfly
Howdy Stranger!

Hey, it's good to see you back! But, doggone it, you swiped part of what I was working on for my Market Report, now I got to cook up something else!

Anyway, keep banging the drum on infaltion and don't be a stranger, Stranger!

GF
Usul
If Japan recovers-
Investors will want to invest in Japan rather than overseas
The yen could appreciate- rumours of BOJ intervention last night to stop this happening.
On the other side of the coin, the dollar would fall, investment funds flow out of the US, bond yields would increase, stock markets fall, Japanese rates rise, end of
yen carry trade, more pressure on US rates to increase, import prices rise, more inflationary pressures, all in all in gold's favour!
Julia
Charts
I should add to my previous post: Be sure to look at BOTH charts. They are different projected directions the market could go.
ET
Stranger
Hey Stranger - good to see you haven't forgotten your password.

You wrote;

'If you were around in the '70s, you know that higher rates, per se, were not what slew the beast.
After just about everything else had been tried, it was TIGHT MONEY that finally did the job.
Eventually, tight money will happen here, too...but not yet. The Volcker/Reagan recession of 1982
was a doozy, but it was necessary to stem inflation that had been expanding for a decade. The
current inflation is brand new. Few on Wall Street have even acknowledged it yet.'

I'm not sure it is brand new, but maybe just a continuation of the old, eh? I don't see how any slowdown in attempted money creation can be allowed to happen. If tight money returns as you say, it's likely cause would be market driven rather than politically driven as in the 80's. Don't you think Volcker's fed action was an attempt to salvage the dollar economy and still not move back to a gold standard? Do you think this is still possible today? Didn't someone mention awhile back that the Euro's creation was directly caused by a lack of alternatives to a dollar based economy?

You wrote;

'If you are discouraged, remember this: the road to worldwide economic recovery has largely been
built upon dollar liquidity. And just as that dollar liquidity is refreshing markets around the globe, so is
it fostering $20 billion monthly trade deficits for America. Now that Kosovo is winding down, watch
how the dollar behaves in the foreign exchange markets. The problem is, most other countries are
reinflating also. So where does one hide?'

Yes - it would seem this is the plan once again, at least as far as the dollar based countries are concerned. I believe there is some merit to the idea that what happened in the 80's is not what we will see this time around. Since the Euro's introduction, the world now has an alternative to a completely dollar based world economy. I'm not so sure this reflation is going to be as successful as it was two decades ago. The debt bubble created now seems immensely larger than that faced in either the Johnson or Carter years. I still believe there is a finite limit to this bubble and all it will take to deflate it is some kind of economic shock.

You wrote;

'Eva Peron discovered when she tried to create wealth on a printing press that inflation is the
inevitable result. She was an extreme example, yes. But the principle here is the same. For a time,
those in power may succeed in conning the shirtless ones, but they never can defy simple arithmetic.
Meanwhile, if anyone watching gold prices hour by hour is agonizing over every downtick, I would
respectfully advise finding a better use for one's time. Right now we are in an emotional panic that
has absolutely nothing to do with anything except fear. How long it will take is anybody's guess, but
it is not the end of the world.'

Yeah - agreed, but it might be the end of the world as some know it. The dollar based economies are likely to never see this world again if the reflation you describe is unsuccessful. I would still contend that the real economy has been deflating for decades but has been masked by this monetary inflation. I don't see how the bankers/governments really have any choice but to continue their attempts at reflation but I'm not so sure they will meet with the same kind of success they've had the last thirty years.

No panic here. Isn't this a buying opportunity?

Good to see you back.

ET
Julia
Leigh
Thank you so much for the link you posted. A great deal of good information. Julia
Julia
Gandalf the White
Sorry to be so late in saying this.
I just wanted to tell you that your post was great. It gave me a real picture of life in Thailand after the devaluation of their money. I really appreciate the time you took to respond. I can plan better when I have examples like yours. Thank you.

By the way - what is a farang?

Julia
AEL
bits and pieces


Julia (6/6/99; 14:00:34MDT - Msg ID:7244): "Do you think that if one is
prepared for y2k, one is then prepared for the mother of all $ devaluations?"

I think so. That is one of the neat things about "Y2K" preparations --
they are not must Y2K preparations, they are ANYTHING preparations. If
you are thoroughly prepared for Y2K, then you are thoroughly prepared
for just about any untoward event or disaster imaginable (or at least
any such event that CAN be prepared for). And that includes economic
disasters, if you have properly switched out of paper and into
tangibles. Metals are of course the most concentrated tangible, but do
not neglect the other stuff -- food, clothes, etc. Example: I just
bought 4 pairs (for me, a 4/5-year supply) of very high-quality sneakers
at K-Mart for $20/pair. These cheapies are made in China, and China is
toast, Y2K-wise; not to mention the coming dollar crisis. I do not
expect that we will be able to buy high-quality sneakers for $20/pair a
year or two from now. Maybe $60/pair. Maybe $100/pair. In the shorter
term, sneakers might do quite a bit better than gold. There are many
other examples. The point is: stock up on any/everything that you need
and use regularly. Buy 5 years supply. You'll use it up, no matter what,
and prices cannot possibly get much lower than they are today.

We watch this new pork 'n beans market together, yes? :)

(just kidding, Another/FOA! love your posts...)

-----

ET (6/6/99; 13:23:54MDT - Msg ID:7243): "I saw you asked Tomcat about
the current situation concerning y2k and I hope you don't mind me
throwing in my 2 cents. The situation in a word could be described as
desperate. Very few entities could be described as ready to carry on
business as usual. I'm starting to believe my own pessimistic conclusion
concerning the economic ramifications of y2k has indeed been way too
optimistic. This is shaping up as a total economic collapse of historic
proportions. I've failed to find any evidence to the contrary. Virtually
every industry in the world is far, far behind in remediation efforts
and this does not bode well for any currency except gold. I think it is
time for all to put aside any further concerns and concentrate on
getting through the next few years in a much smaller economic environment."

... PRECISELY! Thanks. I am increasingly convinced that the main Y2K
fallout will be economic, and that it may take many months to fully
ripen (i.e. for things to unravel). Within the Y2K prep community there
is a tendency to overstress acute-disaster types of preps (propane
stoves, first aid kits, etc, etc.) -- which are certainly OK, and part
of the picture. But the acute phase is unlikely to last for more than a
few weeks or months (and will likely be episodic and spotty,
geographically). The economic fallout will take a few months/quarters to
build up a head of steam, and could be devastating. We shall see.
Meanwhile, prep for a depression. REDUCE EXPENSES. I am thinking of
getting rid of my car; I am fed up with paying whopping insurance, plus
repairs, etc. (plus I am fed up with this whole insane pave-the-world
autoerotic culture of ours). Might get a small motorcycle, at 1/3 the
maintenance cost. I just rented out a room upstairs, effectively
cutting my rent in half. Point: do NOW the things that you might be
DRIVEN to do in a depression. As I think Davidson and Rees-Mogg (not
sure of that source) said in the how-to-prepare section of one of their
books: take in a recent immigrant as a tenant; then watch them and COPY
them (i.e. how they manage to scrape by on $450/mo and send the rest
back to fambly in the old country). Learn from the experts.

-----

Leigh (6/8/99; 18:13:03MDT - Msg ID:7351): "A Lurker Steps Up To The
Table.... If Clinton and his thugs should confiscate gold, wouldn't gold
owners be able to sell it on the world market (and probably at better
prices)? That's assuming that the Bilderberger gang doesn't outlaw gold
worldwide. But then, how could they possibly do that?"

Great question, Leigh! (and welcome to the club, here!) No one offered
an answer to your question. I have wondered about this same matter,
myself. They cannot confiscate/outlaw gold EVERYwhere, can they? Seems
that that would require more draconian international coordination than
is really possible. So, for those of us who might like to trade some of
our gold for other things when it hits $2000/oz (or whatever), I guess this
means smuggling physical out of the country...

-----

Golden Truth (6/10/99; 1:00:25MDT - Msg ID:7413):
"WE SHALL NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thanks for the exhortation. We all need bucking-up from time to time...
even the non-christians among us... :)


AEL
Michael's request


USAGOLD (6/8/99; 13:59:54MDT - Msg ID:7344): "Can any of our Y2K experts
here help me with how Europe stacks up against the United States in
remediation progress particularly in the banking/finance sector?"


Michael, here are some URLs that might be of use (these are NOT
well-screened, and not as (Europe-specific) as I would like; just some leads for you):

http://www.y2ktimebomb.com/IW/AK/iw9910.htm
http://www.csis.org/html/y2k2agend.html
http://www.policy.com/issuewk/issuewkarc.html
http://www.y2ktimebomb.com/Economy
http://146.115.133.76/about/news_stories/2000.html
http://y2kwatch.com/showart.php3?idx=190&rtn=/articles.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1

... also, here's a clipping (no URL) that might interest you:

----------

The Year 2000 Bug Is a Menace, No Doubt About It

Jan 27, 1999 - International Herald Tribune

By: James P. Bond, coordinator of year 2000
operational initiatives at the World Bank

It is a startling fact that by next Jan. 1 most developing countries will
not have fixed their year 2000 computer problems. These threaten them,
along with neighbors and trading partners, with damaging consequences.

A World Bank survey of 139 developing countries found that only 35 percent
have a national plan to make systems Y2K-compliant. Last month, officials
from 120 countries gathered at the United Nations to discuss the problem
and agreed that their governments would assign it the "highest priority."

Having a national plan is only the first step. Carrying out such plans is
costly. Wealthy countries and large companies have the funds and skilled
people to immunize computers and operating software from the millennium
bug. Many developing countries do not.

Or they see the threat as vague and distant. Yet many developing countries
have regional sharing arrangements under which, for example, they rely on a
neighbor's electrical supply which uses computer microchips and software
that may not be Y2K-compliant.

Middle Eastern countries depend on computer-managed desalinization plants
for water. Oil drilling rigs around the world use embedded chip systems,
some of them buried on the ocean floor. Food and fuel distribution
networks, health care, education and road, air and maritime links could be
severely affected.

Emerging markets already weakened by capital flight could see their
recovery delayed as investors steer clear of companies which are not
Y2K-compliant. A worldwide interbank working group is conducting
assessments of Y2K progress in six key sectors, with a view to guidance in
making investment decisions. Many mutual funds are already avoiding
companies that do not have millennium bug action under way.

It is in emerging markets that the capacity to fix the bug is weakest. One
private-sector study found that companies in the worst affected East Asian
crisis countries have cut computer spending by more than 20 percent.

At the same time, these and other developing countries risk being further
undermined by a brain drain as high salaries and relaxed visa restrictions
in wealthier countries siphon off qualified computer experts just when
their skills are most needed at home.

The lack of interest in this issue is surprising. The millennium bug,
living mysteriously and unseen within the microchips and software of the
world's computer systems, could trigger a global catastrophe. The problem
is technical. Most of us are reluctant to acknowledge how much we depend on
technology, so political leaders have only recently been persuaded to take
action.

Even if we can succeed in overcoming this resistance to accepting the
problem as serious, the challenge still looms large. It is already too late
for most developing countries to carry out enough Y2K preparations to avoid
disruption.

Instead they should urgently devise contingency plans, identifying critical
sectors and systems water, power, food, health care, telecommunications,
transport, finance and trading and checking the bugs in them, while
preparing backup plans should these systems fail on Jan. 1.

Estimates of what it will cost to fix the millennium bug worldwide vary
greatly, but we can get some idea by analyzing what major players have
earmarked for the task. Chase Manhattan Corp. is spending $363 million, and
DuPont Co. $400 million, while the U.S. Education Department's projected
Y2K costs are $45.5 million

The World Bank, the OECD and a handful of donor countries such as Britain,
the United States, Canada and Italy, together with other multilateral
development banks and international private-sector organizations, have
undertaken an effort to raise Y2K awareness and mobilize technical
assistance and funds to help developing countries.

These efforts are extremely modest, given the enormity of the task and the
global impact of a failure to act. It is now obvious that next Jan. 1 will
unleash a chain of problems that will touch everyone on the planet, with
the most damaging effects hitting the least prepared, namely, governments
and businesses providing services to the world's poor.

Efforts by the World Bank, the United Nations and others can support some
Y2K fixing, but their most important effect should be a wake-up call to
national and local governments, companies and international organizations
to get involved in preemptive action now.

Developing countries must devise contingency plans for those vital systems
that are not yet Y2K-immune.

The writer, coordinator of year 2000 operational initiatives at the World
Bank, contributed this comment to the International Herald Tribune.

Goldfly
Julia - "farang"

My bet is "Forienger"

GF
Gandalf the White
Julia's question and Goldfly's answer --- and the return of The Stranger !
Yes, Julia, Goldfly is correct, "farang" is Thai for "foreigner", but not all non-Thai. -- Like, Japanese or Koreans, and many others are not referred to as farang. -- Quite easy to pick out the farang in Thailand, because of physical stature and method of dress, shall we say farang standout like sore thumbs.

Great to hear you again Stranger! -- Welcome back. -- Missed you.
<;-)
Peter Asher
***** Today's Gold Report *****
After hitting a new twenty year low of $257.00 in Asia, spot gold slowly and steadily rose in Europe. Rumors of New central bank sales by the none Eu countries of Greece, Sweden and Denmark, fueled the fires of the current selling panic that has seen gold fall more than 30 points since the Bank of England announced its pending gold auction. Greece, the 'prime suspect' in the latest episode of so far unrealized Central Bank sales, categorically denied any plans to liquidate any of their 106 tons.

As of 11:00 AM EDT. The Dow is down another 73.45 points and the S & P 500 is off 14.29 . This is the third down day for Wall Street after last weeks rally failed to approach the record highs set last month. Will this Bull Market end, "Not with a bang, but with a whimper"?

Spot gold has risen further in N.Y., now trading at $259.50, While those who have bought gold for trading profits continue to sell the precious yellow, those who buy gold to keep it are being given a historic opportunity to accumulate more of the worlds oldest form of investment. At this time, most technical analysis indicates a classic selling climax that could turn into a raging recovery at any moment. According to one London dealer``Market participants remain nervous and a substantial short-covering rally could notS be that hard to trigger,''

Stay in touch with this Forum throughout the day for further reports from other posters.QCa
Gandalf the White
Help --- where is SteveH ? Went back to sleep after that early post ?
We need an update on the MKTS ! -- OK --
S&P down over 11 which means the the DOW should be down over a hundred points, but the PPT is still in there and it is only down a little more than 40 ! The long BOND is "tanking" and rates are setting up the FED to make an upward correction to rates and that will be the pin in the balloon to start the rapid deflating (POP) of the stock market. --- Gold is holding its own at this subterrian level and the COMEX "open interest" (OI) is taking off into the ionosphere. --- Can you all see the storm clouds gathering ? --- are those cumulus clouds ? --- can the Thunder be far behind ? --- Things are getting exciting. -- GET READY to rock and roll !!
<;-)
Gandalf the White
Great Mkt Report, Peter !
You really ment to advise that the Denmark, which has not yet joined the EU, was not going to sell any Au.
So much to remember!
<;-)
Gandalf the White
Dumb Wizard !
Sorry Peter, the "none" was a "non-" was it not?
Can not read straigh this morning.
<;-)
Peter Asher
(No Subject)
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/wfh/y2kproj.htmlWe recived this by E- mail

I am sending this post to everybody on my list because there is a real effort to keep the general public from seeing it. I don't know who is behind the removal but it has been posted at atleast tenother sites and has disappeared from everyone of them.
The place where it originated was the Naval War College and that site has been shut down one week after it published this report. If you are not concerned about what it says, just delete it from your message base.

skully
Technician
Is this the bottom?
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutres/purifoy.htmlWent long gold this morning. Good possibility we are seeing a reversal or least intermediate bottom. At least low risk.
Good luck fellow goldbugs.
Peter Asher
Gandalf
Your right, Non-, not none. Spellcheck doesn't catch that kind of typo, I'll have to start using the grammer fixing program. Ive avoided it because its a very arrogant and bossy electronic robot that thinks it's right all the time
Gandalf the White
********(unique) MARKET REPORT************
*********MARKET REPORT**************
Before Noon NY Time --- June 10, 1999
As seen thru the eyes of any of the 5 Million
On-line Day Traders !! (This is one that
you have never seen before !!)
-----------------------------------------------------------
GREAT day at the NYSE !! Action is hot and
heavy and the top ten action stocks of the day are:
(at HIGH NOON )
BDT up 33 % -- +1/2 at 1 13/16 on vol of 575K
NERX up 29% +5/8 at 2 5/16 on vol of 714K
ZOOM up 25% +3/4 at 5 9/32 on vol of 114K
ACEI up 22% +5/16 at 1 11/16 on vol of 415K
IGLC up 20 % +15/32 at 2 5/8 on vol of 450K
MLOG up 19% +11/32 at 2 5/32 on vol of 117K
WFR up 18% +1 1/2 at 12 1/2 on vol of 280K
MESG up 16% +2 3/16 at 13 9/16 on vol 880K
PLXT up 15% +2 3/4 at 22 1/8 on vol 253K
ARMHY up 15% + 4 1/8 at 32 1/2 on vol 470K

This is because the day traders are not watching
the BLOOD releasing from the other portions of
the market. Such things as:
DOW down 0.93% or - 99 points at 10,594
S&P down 1.17% or -15.5 at 1303.
NAS down 1.17% or -30 at 2489
R2K down 0.7 % or - 3.0 at 442
30 /yr bond interest rate at 6.6%
----
Now for the Goldhearts ---
XAU.X up 3 % at 61.60 having made a positive
reversal on the charts. ----- AND
GC9Q (Aug, Au) at 261.4 after having visited below
259 for a while.
---
MORE, Later IF you all can stand it !
<;-)
Goldfly
*******Today's Gold Report*******

Victory in Kosovo who's next?

Gold: 261.2 UP 0.10
Silv: 5.11 Up 0.09
Euro: 1.047 Up 0.10
(Current)


After exploring new 20-year low territory overnight, gold has moved up this morning, August Gold is currently up 10 cents.

At a recent conference in Philadelphia, Alan Greenspan left a number of the cr�me de la cr�me of international banking with the idea that the U.S. may soon be raising interest rates for the first time in two years. The intent would be to keep inflation under control by making it harder to borrow Dollars. Many analysts would say such a move resembles closing the barn door after the horses have already bolted.

It was also reported that a number of the meetings participants voiced concerns about the softness the Euro has been experiencing. The Euro as been in an almost continual slide since it launched at the beginning of this year. The 'benign neglect' of the ECB has left currency watchers wondering just what the intent of the Europeans is toward their shiny new fiat.

On another note: The war on Yugoslavia appears to have reached an end. The Yugoslavian government has capitulated and troop withdrawal has begun. This begs the question however: Where will NATO go next? Rumor has it (a rumor has to start somewhere, right?), that riding the wave of victory in the Balkans, U.S. warplanes will begin bombing the cities and infrastructure of mainland China early Monday. The declared objective will be to dislodge the Chinese from Tibet, a country forcibly assimilated into the Chinese hegemony in the 1950's, and undergoing continual bouts of "ethnic cleansing." An unnamed military source is quoted as saying: "The embassy was just a warning shot, now we're gonna stick it to 'em good."

That's it for today fellow Goldkeisters. If there is any further developments, you're on your own. I've got work to do. Of course, I expect that this is not the last Market Report of the day. Tomorrow my report will be by a Guest Commentator, because you all are my connection to the Gold markets, and if I just repeat what you tell me- it's not much of a report, is it?

GF
Goldfly
Correction....
The Euro UP should read 0.010
BC
AEL and Leigh re:...
AEL (6/10/99; 7:43:13MDT - Msg ID:7424) "bits and pieces"
Leigh (6/8/99; 18:13:03MDT - Msg ID:7351) "A Lurker Steps Up To The Table....

I asked FOA and Michael similar questions back in May:... 1) about the possibility of confiscation or excessive taxation if/when gold goes to $10,000, and 2) how to liquidate some gold after the price of gold skyrockets, and the social situation has gotten chaotic. You can my original question here: BC (5/9/99; 10:53:27MDT - Msg ID:5807).

1) FOA felt the government will have to encourage the use of gold ownership to maintain stability in the country. See: FOA (5/9/99; 19:11:04MDT - Msg ID:5826)

2) Michael offered some thoughts for how things might unfold in the U.S. based on the crises that have occurred in some of the Asian countries. See: USAGOLD (5/9/99; 12:05:08MDT - Msg ID:5809)

Basically he feels that direct gold barter will be difficult, because most people don't know real gold when they see it. Instead, he suggests that entrepreneurs would probably set up exchange centers for gold redemptions.

Hope this helps.

BC
TownCrier
*******Today's Gold Market Report: *********
MARKET REPORT(6/10/99): Gold drifted down to test the $257 level in overnight trading, but received some "good
support" at around the $258 level when world gold trading found its turn in London. Support was found from some of the larger banks, although a trader noted that it remains a "sale" for one particularly large New York dealer at prices much above this point. Gold perma-bear Bill O'Neill, strategist with Merrill Lynch has predicted a low of $240 over the next three month period. Regarding today's action, one trader said. "It's definitely been good size changing hands. Maybe a large producer decided to dump it and lock in whatever they can."

On that note, we found this comment to be quite revealing. I suggest you read it twice: "I am long for the first time in a long time today. The price has got to stop somewhere and for the first time it looked like maybe the sellers were the wrong type and the buyers were the right ones,'' said one London dealer.

Central Banks of Greece, Denmark, and Sweden (three countries that remain outside the euro union) have denied recent and persistent rumors of gold sales. Panayiotis Pliatsikas, director of the foreign exchange department of the Bank of Greece added, "As you know, our foreign exchange reserves stand around $21 billion and there is no reason for us to sell gold." THAT, my fellow goldmeisters, is as close as it gets in officialdom to saying outright, "If we did find ourselves with a need to support our currency, we have $21 billion of other nations' money. That is A LOT of paper, and therefore, our gold holdings are quite secure-- they would be the last to go. Again, while the paper remains, there is no reason for us to sell gold." Amen, brother.

Russia, too, despite its weakened ruble has managed to hold tightly to its gold. Bridge reports from Moscow announced today that the foreign exchange/gold reserves of the Central Bank of Russia as of Jun 4 were at US $12 billion, unchanged from May 28. In other world news, Tokyo reports that the downturn in gold, coupled with a stronger yen has driven this week's gold prices below 1,100 yen per gram, a key psychological level, though it has not yet triggered massive bargain hunting by Japanese private investors as had been earlier expected by traders. Many investors are waiting for a further fall in retail gold prices in Japan before rushing to buy retail gold bars, they said.

On the financial scene, U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin said during Thursday's news briefing ahead of a weekend meeting of Group of Seven finance ministers in Germany that there are risks "in both direrctions" to the U.S. economy, and an ever-present need to watch inflation. We must ask ourselves, if the risks are in both directions, do we find ourselves upon a veritible "Razor's Edge", and what one element might be found to provide a measure of safety against falling off? Rubin also warned that the U.S. trade deficit could not be sustained indefinately, although the administration's preference for a strong dollar remained unchanged.

Y2K draws ever nearer, and Reuters reports that the White House joined Wall Street's top regulator on Thursday when
the President's "Council on Year 2000 Conversion" and the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) said they had developed a "Y2K survival kit." The kit is to help brokerage firms, markets, regulators and news media provide information to the public about Wall Street's Y2K readiness. Chairman of the White House's Y2K council John Koskinen said, "By joining together, we hope to reach the greatest number of Americans and answer any questions that they may have about how the date change could affect their financial accounts and transactions." I'm sure you join me in feeling glad that the White House has proved itself in recent years to be a trustworthy voice in an uncertain world. A-hem. (wink, wink)

As I go to "fetch this over to the server" (as MK always says), the spot price has drifted up during early New York trading, peaking above $260. At the moment, the world remains plagued with Y2K, currency devaluations, a heady stock equities market, rising oil, and a falling 30-year bond. Gold is currently priced at the enticing level of $259.40, while the DOW is down 140, the Nasdaq is down 43, and they can't give the long bond away even with interest rates now above 6.05%. Gold market analysts have commented that they hold doubts as to the market's ability to deliver physical gold under current demand. Time will tell the tale. That's it for today, fellow Goldmeisters. Enjoy the day!

In the latest News & Views, MK reportedly rambles through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and gives the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is promised to be a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM
(click on the "Info Packet" link near the top of this page) or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- the widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
Golden Truth
TOWN CRIER BLOWS ME AWAY!
Excellent "Gold Market Report" i say absolutely marvelous as i got out of bed this morning i was saddened to think, that M.K would not be writing his market report. I truly enjoy your gold reports M.K just in case yon didn't know that! Yet Town Crier you provided me with a substitute so close to the genuine article that all i can say is "THANKYOU"
HopeingII
TownCrier
Excellent Market Report

If possible, I don't know what your source was, could you
post a URL for the following.

"Gold market analysts have commented that they hold doubts as to the market's ability to deliver physical gold under current demand. Time will tell the tale."

TIA
TownCrier
Argentine official sees no problem on debt finance
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990610/2n.htmlUndersecretary of Finance Miguel Kiguel said the country had issued $1.8 billion of a planned $2.9 billion in domestic debt, and also issued around $6.5 billion of $8.7 billion in international debt markets. The balance of the $17.5 billion requirement for 1999 will come from international loans and other sources.

"No problem." Right! Not as long as you can borrow from Rumpelstiltskin to pay the Piper...
TownCrier
U.S. May import prices rise, export prices flat
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990610/1v.htmlThe Labor Department said U.S. import prices rose 0.7 percent last month after a revised 1.0 percent increase in April that was previously reported as up 0.8 percent. May marked a third straight month of rising import prices, led by a continuing increase in petroleum costs.
***********************
Thanks for the support, Golden Truth. Toss in a "Goldmeister" here and a "Goldmeister" there and anyone can sound like MK. You give me too much credit! Thank you, Sir!

HopeingII, there is no URL to give for that comment. The information was obtained through personal conversation and e-mail contacts with people in The Biz. (and to think most people always thought "The Biz" referred to Hollywood... Nope. Gold is bigger)
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold dn $1
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 10--After a jumpy
session, Aug gold settled down $1 at $260.10 per ounce. It had first
extended Wednesday's fall, moving to a fresh 20-year low of $258.50 in the
overnight session. It then managed to recoup its losses towards the middle
of the session, and then finally gave up its gains again right at the end.

"All the other precious metals continue to outperform gold -- gold is
anticipating a round of official sales from the UK then in future from the
IMF and Swiss," said Bill O'Neill, analyst at Merrill Lynch.
Aug gold had initially managed to rebound from this morning's 20-year
low, receiving strength from silver, a dip in stock and bond prices, and
continued weakness in the dollar against the yen.

One trader noted that gold had received some "good support" at around
the $258 level from some of the larger banks, although noted that as it
climbs much above this point, it remains a "sale" for one particularly
large New York dealer.
"There was very good selling of $260 puts and some option related
covering --this was the catalyst for today's bounce," said Caen. Also
helping gold was a denial from the Greek central bank that it had been one
of the market's recent featured gold sellers. The bank made the denial
after speculative reports Wednesday that Greece had made sales.

Some players are suggesting that gold has plunged in recent weeks not
only because of bearish sentiment ahead of the UK Treasury's first gold
auction Jly 6 but also because some central banks have been selling to
"get in" ahead of this date.
"Whether it's a central bank or large producer selling remains to be
seen," said one trader. "It's definitely been good size changing hands.
Maybe a large producer decided to dump it and lock in whatever they can,"
he added.
While some players fear a short-covering rally, given the dominance of
short positions, others nevertheless remain adamant that gold remains weak
and any rallies will be used as selling opportunities.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
HopeingII
TownCrier
Thanks for the response
Leigh
What Did Josef Mean?
Thanks, BC, for your excellent answer to my confiscation question. I feel much more informed now. I am still in hope that someone will tell me how to buy Euros. Looks like they might be on the rise!

What do you guys think Josef the Gambler meant by a big day July 14? What's going to light the fire? Is everyone planning to be in place to watch?

Many thanks, from Leigh.
Gandalf the White
******Closing Market Comments *********
Well the PPT is still alive and well, as they managed to push the S&P futures up at the end of the session to achieve a DOW recovery at the close of the trading day.
Most appropiately for the day traders, (and this is the whole truth also! ) -- ZOOM was the largest percentage winner today, up 35% -- +1 5/8 to 6 1/4 on 1.16 million shares. The Hobbits are now checking the stocks to see if there is a symbol of DUMP or DROP !!! -- That's it for the day, folks. (let's hope for better results tomorrow.)
<;-)
TownCrier
The most important speech you will probably read all day
Remarks by Chairman Alan Greenspan...(this is not a link, just a blue heading)Commencement address
Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
June 10, 1999

President Rudenstine, President Wilson, Harvard alumni, fellow recipients of degrees, your parents and friends: It is a distinct pleasure to join you in celebrating this milestone in American higher education, the 348th Harvard commencement.

We are here to honor the achievements and the promise of the members of the graduating class of 1999. To them, let me say: You are being bequeathed the tools for achieving a material existence that neither my generation nor any that preceded it could have even remotely imagined as we began our life's work. What you must shape for yourselves are those values that will enable you to thrive in a world that is becoming increasingly competitive and frenetic.

To the parents and friends of the graduating class, let me say: I had planned to offer you some useful investment advice but, in the end, was dissuaded. My staff informed me that those of you who in recent years have been paying Harvard tuition or have contributed to the endowment fund, must by now have little left to invest.

But clearly you have already made the best investment there is: education.

The creative abilities of this graduating class and their contemporaries will determine the future state of our cultural, legal, and economic institutions. The ideas these graduates create, and employ, will influence the degree of American prosperity in the twenty-first century.

The quintessential manifestations of America's industrial might earlier this century--large steel mills, auto assembly plants, petrochemical complexes, and skyscrapers--have been replaced by a gross domestic product that has been downsized as ideas have replaced physical bulk and effort as creators of value. Today, economic value is best symbolized by exceedingly complex, miniaturized integrated circuits and the ideas--the software--that utilize them. Most of what we currently perceive as value and wealth is intellectual and impalpable.

The American economy, clearly more than most, is in the grip of what the eminent Harvard professor, Joseph Schumpeter, many years ago called "creative destruction," the continuous process by which emerging technologies push out the old. Standards of living rise when incomes created by the productive facilities employing older, increasingly obsolescent, technologies are marshaled to finance the newly produced capital assets that embody cutting-edge technologies.

This is the process by which wealth is created, incremental step by incremental step. It presupposes a continuous churning of an economy as the new displaces the old. Although this process of productive obsolescence has ancient roots, it appears to have taken on a quickened pace in recent years and changed its character. The remarkable, and partly fortuitous, coming together of the technologies that make up what we label IT--information technologies--has begun to alter, fundamentally, the manner in which we do business and create economic value, often in ways that were not readily foreseeable even a decade ago.

Before the advent of what has become a veritable avalanche of information technology innovation, most twentieth-century business decisionmaking had been hampered by dated and incomplete information about customer preferences in markets and flows of materials through a company's production systems. Relevant information was hours, days, or even weeks old. Accordingly, business managers had to double up on materials and people to protect against the inevitable misjudgments that were part and parcel of production planning. Ample inventory levels were needed to ensure output schedules, and backup teams of people and machines were required to maintain quality control and respond to unanticipated developments.

Of course, large remnants of imprecision still persist, but the remarkable surge in the availability of real-time information in recent years has sharply reduced the degree of uncertainty confronting business management. This has enabled businesses to remove large swaths of now unnecessary inventory, and dispense with much programmed worker and capital redundancies. As a consequence, growth in output per work hour has accelerated, elevating the standards of living of the average American worker.

Intermediate production and distribution processes, so essential when information and quality control were poor, are being bypassed and eventually eliminated. The proliferation of Internet web sites is promising to alter significantly the way large parts of our distribution system are managed. Moreover, technological innovations have spread far beyond the factory floor and retail and wholesale distribution channels. Biotech, for example, is revolutionizing medicine and agriculture, with far reaching consequences for the quality of life not only in the United States but around the world.

The explosion in the variety of products of many different designs and qualities has opened up the potential for the satisfaction of consumer needs not evident even a decade or two ago. The accompanying expansion of incomes and wealth has been truly impressive, though regrettably the gains have not been as widely spread across households as I would like.

How is this remarkable economic machine to be maintained, and how can we better ensure that its benefits reach the greatest number of people?

Certainly, we must foster an environment in which continued advances in technology are encouraged and welcomed. If the graduates of 1999 are going to be able to build on the accomplishments of their forebears, many of them must push forward to expand our knowledge in science and engineering, and our universities must ready themselves to meet the technical needs of our students yet to come.

But scientific proficiency will not be enough. Skill alone may not be sufficient to move the frontier of technology far enough to meet the many challenges that our nation and educational system will confront in the decades ahead. And technological advances alone will not buttress the democratic institutions, supported by a rule of law, which are so essential to our dynamic and vigorous American economy. Each is merely a tool, which, without the enrichment of human wisdom, is of modest value.

A crucial challenge of education is to transform skills and intelligence into wisdom--into a process of thinking capable of forming truly new insights.

An agile young mind has the facility to solve a complex set of equations. But that mind must be broadened if it is to make effective use of that solution to meet human needs. There is little doubt of the relationship between our ability to think creatively and our productiveness as individual members of society.

The roots and nature of how the human mind innovates, however, have always been subject to controversy. Yet, even without indisputable evidence, there has been a remarkable and pervasive assumption that the ability to think abstractly is fostered through exposure to philosophy, literature, music, art, and languages. A liberal education was presumed in years past to produce a greater understanding of all aspects of living--an essential ingredient for broadening one's world view. I believe it still does.

Viewing a great painting or listening to a profoundly moving piano concerto produces a sense of intellectual joy that is satisfying in and of itself. But, arguably, it also enhances and reinforces the conceptual processes so essential to innovation.

Specifically, the broadening of one's world view that is acquired through a liberal education almost surely contributes to an understanding of the interrelationships of different fields of endeavor. Important new knowledge is very often the result of such interdisciplinary observation. The broader the context that an inquiring mind brings to a problem, the greater will be the potential for creative insights that, in the end, contribute to a more productive economy.

But learning and knowledge--and even wisdom--are not enough. National well-being, including material prosperity, rests to a substantial extent on the personal qualities of the people who inhabit a nation.

At the risk of sounding a bit uncool, I say to the graduating class of 1999 that your success in life, and the success of our country, is going to depend on the integrity and other qualities of character that you and your contemporaries will continue to develop and demonstrate over the years ahead. A generation from now, as you watch your children graduate, you will want to be able to say that whatever success you achieved was the result of honest and productive work, and that you dealt with people the way you would want them to deal with you.

Civilization, our civilization, rests on that premise. It presupposes the productive interaction of people engaged in the division of labor, driven--I cannot resist the jargon--by economic comparative advantage. This implies mutual exchange to mutual advantage among free people. Coercive societies and coercive relationships among people rarely enhance the state of what we call civilization.

I presume that I could offer all kinds of advice to today's graduates from my half-century in private business and government. I could urge you all to work hard, save, and prosper. And I do. But transcending all else is being principled in how you go about doing those things.

It is decidedly not true that "nice guys finish last," as that highly original American baseball philosopher, Leo Durocher, was once alleged to have said.

I do not deny that many appear to have succeeded in a material way by cutting corners and manipulating associates, both in their professional and in their personal lives. But material success is possible in this world and far more satisfying when it comes without exploiting others. The true measure of a career is to be able to be content, even proud, that you succeeded through your own endeavors without leaving a trail of casualties in your wake.

I cannot speak for others whose psyches I may not be able to comprehend, but, in my working life, I have found no greater satisfaction than achieving success through honest dealings and strict adherence to the view that for you to gain, those you deal with should gain as well. Human relations--be they personal or professional--should not be zero sum games.

And beyond the personal sense of satisfaction, having a reputation for fair dealing is a profoundly practical virtue. We call it "good will" in business and add it to our balance sheets.

Trust is at the root of any economic system based on mutually beneficial exchange. In virtually all transactions, we rely on the word of those with whom we do business. Were this not the case, exchange of goods and services could not take place on any reasonable scale. Our commercial codes and contract law presume that only a tiny fraction of contracts, at most, need be adjudicated. If a significant number of businesspeople violated the trust upon which our interactions are based, our court system and our economy would be swamped into immobility.

It is not by chance that in nineteenth century America, many bankers could effectively issue uncollateralized currency because they were able to develop a reputation that their word was their bond. For these institutions to succeed and prosper, people had to trust their promise of redemption in specie. Now, as then, a contractor with a reputation for shoddy work will not prosper long.

In today's world, where ideas are increasingly displacing the physical in the production of economic value, competition for reputation becomes a significant driving force, propelling our economy forward. Manufactured goods often can be evaluated before the completion of a transaction. Service providers, on the other hand, usually can offer only their reputations.

The extraordinarily complex machine that we call the economy of the United States is, in the end, made up of human beings struggling to improve their lives. The individual values of those Americans will continue to influence the structure of the institutions that support market transactions, as they have throughout our history. Without mutual trust, and market participants abiding by a rule of law, no economy can prosper.

Our system works fundamentally on individual fair dealing. We need only look around today's world to realize how rare and valuable this is.

While we have achieved much in this regard, more remains to be done. Considerable progress, for example, has been evident in recent decades in the reduction of racial and other forms of discrimination. But this job is still far from completion.

A free market capitalist system cannot operate fully effectively unless all participants in the economy are given opportunities to achieve their best. If we succeed in opening up opportunities to everyone, our national affluence will almost surely become more widespread. Of even greater import is that all Americans believe that they are part of a system they perceive as fair and worthy of support.

Our forefathers bestowed upon us a system of government, and a culture of enterprise, that has propelled the United States to the greatest prosperity the world has ever experienced.

Today's graduates from Harvard and other schools are being passed the standard to carry forward our traditions. I know you will improve upon this inheritance in ways that we have yet to imagine.

I offer you all my congratulations and wish you success in your chosen careers. You honor me by listening to the musings of an old, idealistic, central banker.
AEL
Thanks, BC

I checked those posts.

Michael writes: "If the breakdown proceeds to crisis proportion and there is no reliable mail system, telephone, banking system, you will be forced to exchange gold in your local area with a local vendor. DO NOT EXCHANGE ANY MORE GOLD THAN YOUR DAILY OR WEEKLY NEEDS REQUIRE."

No, indeed. And that is another reason to stockpile
EVERYTHING to last for many months, or even years. Set yourself up so you need not go out shopping!

BTW: I have read in several places that when currencies
are devalued, typically the (metal) coinage does *not* get devalued; i.e. it becomes effectively super-valued; hence
the advice to stockpile clad coinage. Any truth to this? Ideas? Thoughts?

TownCrier
Currency tea leaves
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990610/9i.htmlMost IMM currency futures end higher
BC
AEL (6/10/99; 16:06:11MDT - Msg ID:7449)
AEL: "...No, indeed. And that is another reason to stockpile EVERYTHING to last for many months, or even years. Set yourself up so you need not go out shopping!"

I agree. The bottom line is that no one really knows what options will be available to us. I would guess that making typical Y2K preparations would be the best bet strategy for now, even if Y2K wasn't coming. Have some stuff to barter, have some gold, have some local currency, and put away some general supplies for yourself and family to get through the rough spots.

AEL: "...BTW: I have read in several places that when currencies are devalued, typically the (metal) coinage does *not* get devalued; i.e. it becomes effectively super-valued; hence the advice to stockpile clad coinage. Any truth to this? Ideas? Thoughts?"

I assume that gold coinage will appreciate significantly. Certainly, that's what everyone here has been talking about for so long. However, since you say simply "metal coinage," are you referring to the typical U.S. nickels, dimes and quarters becoming super-valued? If so, I've never thought about that or ever heard from anyone that that's the case.

Obviously, the silver coinage will hold it's PM value. The other coinage, the stuff we carry around as pocket change, that to me seems to be almost worthless, even now.... meaning: there's not much you can buy today for less than a buck that's any good.

If you have any references about this "super-valuation" idea that you can pass along, please do. I'd like to read up on it.

Thanks. BC
Gandalf the White
AEL # 7449
comments on "clad coinage" --- IMHO, worth just the same as if coins were made of paper ! The reason that coins became valuable in the past was that they were made of 90% silver, and were replaced with the near worthless clad coins. Twil be the same value as "Apple II" computers today, -- "Boat anchors" as they are refferred to in the local slang.
<;-)
mike55
Alan Greenspan's Commencement Address
TownCrier - Thanks for posting AG's speech. Personal opinions of AG and his policies aside, and notwithstanding whether he "walks the talk", I felt this was a great address as it encompassed so many areas. I was ready to stand up and sing "God Bless America" half way through the speech! Seriously, the concept of integrity he espouses for individuals and societies needs to be continually driven home in our schools, just as we do in our personal lives with family and friends. I'll throw in my two cents [in brackets] on some of his points:

"Of course, large remnants of imprecision still persist, but the remarkable surge in the availability of real-time information in recent years has sharply reduced the degree of uncertainty confronting business management. This has enabled businesses to remove large swaths of now unnecessary inventory, and dispense with much programmed worker and capital redundancies."
[The double-edged sword of lean production systems -- improved productivity versus employment levels. I won't get into tight systems and JIT inventory and the effect possible Y2K disruptions may have on economies.]

"A generation from now, as you watch your children graduate, you will want to be able to say that whatever success you achieved was the result of honest and productive work, and that you dealt with people the way you would want them to deal with you."
[AG's version of the Golden Rule without saying the 'G' word?]


"This implies mutual exchange to mutual advantage among free people. Coercive societies and coercive relationships among people rarely enhance the state of what we call civilization."
[Beyond the comment on civilizations, a slightly veiled reference to free-trade without protectionism?]

"It is not by chance that in nineteenth century America, many bankers could effectively issue uncollateralized currency because they were able to develop a reputation that their word was their bond. For these institutions to succeed and prosper, people had to trust their promise of redemption in specie."
[Ah yes, that trust in fiat currency.]

"The individual values of those Americans will continue to influence the structure of the institutions that support market transactions, as they have throughout our history. Without mutual trust, and market participants abiding by a rule of law, no economy can prosper."
[Does this mean the PPT is a good thing?]

"I know you will improve upon this inheritance in ways that we have yet to imagine."
[I know how I'm improving the inheritance for my family and future generations....trading paper for metal whenever I am able!]
Richard, Oregon
Golden Truth (6/10/99; 1:00:25MDT - Msg ID:7413)
GT - thanks for you inspiring words of truth this morning. I needed to hear those words.
Richard, Oregon
Gandalf the White, Please!
Gandalf - We've not spoken directly for some time. I think you may be the one to help me out with this thought. I'm trying to put together for myself a list of, for lack of a better term at this time, "common sense " statements, thoughts, etc., regarding investing ones hard earned money (again, for lack of a better term at this time).

The only one I have so far is buy low, sell high (not very creative I know). But what I'm looking through are ideas like 1)If gold today were say $300 would I be buying or selling? 2)What if it closed at $350 today, again, would I be buying or selling? If I would be buying at those prices, because I really believe it will go much higher, 3)What would I be inclined to do if today's close was say $265? Should I be counting my blessings or pacing the floor? Should I have a grin from ear to ear, or should my chin be on the floor?

There's got to be some common sense statements to further this train of thought. Am I making any sense? I just can't seem to get off dead center with this, yet it's bugged me all day. Do I make any sense? Thoughts? Help me build on this, please!
The Stranger
Response to ET, Goldfly and Gandalf
ET- Hello, my Oklahoma friend, and thank you for your greeting! You asked if I think Volcker's Fed action was an attempt to salvage the dollar economy and still not
move back to a gold standard? Do I think this is still possible today, and didn't someone mention awhile back that the Euro's creation was directly caused by a lack of alternatives to a dollar based economy?

When Volcker was named to the Fed chairmanship, the dollar had been made unsound by years of excess money growth. Knowing full well that reversing that growth would throw MILLIONS of Americans out of work, he couragously charged ahead and did it anyway. Yes, the result has been eighteen years of a relatively sound dollar achieved without the backing of gold. So, IT CAN BE DONE.

But circumstances today do not compare well with the Volcker period, in my opinion. They are much more similar to the Arthur Burns Fed of the early '70s. Then, as now, the money supply was allowed to grow rapidly. I am not here to argue whether the recipe was well-advised, either then or now. But I do suggest that we have been baking the same cake.

As to your final question, ET, yes, I recall that creating an alternative reserve currency was part of the rationale behind the Euro. However, while the Euro may be temporarily oversold, so inchoate a currency can hardly be considered the equal of the U.S. Dollar. Furthermore, let us not forget that Euroland is comprised of some of the world's most unabashed welfare states, while America sports the free-est economy on the planet. (For background on the sorry history of European union, check out my post on the subject dated 4-26-99. You may also be interested in my post #5056, dated 4-23-99).

Goldfly- what a warm and generous welcome you have given me. I must confess, I had not expected to be back so soon. Having thought we had seen the bottom of the market, I felt it would be a long time before I would have anything else to contribute. Circumstances proved otherwise. Anyway, thanks for your warm regards. You are a true friend.

Gandalf- Thank you, as well, amigo. I hope the Hobbits are ready for the turnaround. What am I saying? I KNOW they are!

All- Do not underestimate the importance of the Japanese GDP numbers. Japan was the last remaining geographic pocket of deflation in the world. Now, even that is gone. Some of you may recall that I, myself, have a large bet on Japan. Stocks there should now come alive like desert flowers after a spring rain. Reinflation, it seems, is "busting out all over".

SteveH
August gold now...
$261.30.
Gandalf the White
Richard of OR (Re: Msg ID:7455)
Thou saith:
"Gandalf - We've not spoken directly for some time. I think you may be the one to help me out with this thought. I'm trying to put together for myself a list of, for lack of a better term at this time, "common sense " statements, thoughts, etc., regarding investing ones hard earned money (again, for lack of a better term at this time).
*****Thank you Richard! The Hobbits are saying that my hat size is increasing. Common cents, I have many, and I shall try to answer your needs. BUT, if I may, please if you would pay extra attention to the postings of the likes of: The Stranger, Aristotle, MK and Aragorn III for the deeper thoughts on most of your subject matters. PeterA is also my "PNW guru" of note. -- OK, OK --- here are my thoughts.
----
"The only one I have so far is buy low, sell high."
*****That has been overdone and is a salesman's ploy.
My thought is: "Buy only if you can afford to, and something that you can use to make your life more secure and rewarding. Somethings you may never sell. IF there is opportunity for a profit, determine if you have a better item to purchase that will provide better security or potential for greater profit. These decisions are where you win some and lose some, but learn at each occurance.
---
"But what I'm looking through are ideas like:
1)If gold today were say $300 would I be buying or selling? 2)What if it closed at $350 today, again, would I be buying
or selling? If I would be buying at those prices, because I really believe it will go much higher, 3)What would I be inclined to do if today's close was say $265? Should I be counting my blessings or pacing the floor? Should I have a
grin from ear to ear, or should my chin be on the floor?
********Any price of $300. per oz. OR less is like free gold in my mind. If you were to be the one having to produce the gold from the ground, what would it cost you to do so? I know many that have spent fortunes trying to produce gold from the land, rivers and sea, and not received much in return. I also know of some that were indeed lucky to find the "mother lode" and did have much gold at a relatively cheap expenditure. But, most of those just tried to parlay it into more and ended up with nothing. One can not giveup on gold at any price below $300. That is what the "Shorters" want to happen. That is why the "talking heads" continue to poopoo gold as a antique of bygone eras. Look at who is buying physical gold now. We can confirm that citizens of the USofA and Canada are buying gold, from the announcements of the expanding mint's sales and shortages in coin blanks for production. We have also heard of large increases of public consumption of gold in places like India. You too should have a portion of your "savings" or investments in physical gold. Please do not "bet the farm" as I have been known to say, but some of your funds should be planned to be set aside in physical gold, and retained until it is needed, whenever that may be. One does not now know when that need may be, BUT when it arrises, you will then be prepared. I can tell you of true stories told to me by a number of SE Asians that saved their lives and those of their family with the use of gold. You may not need it in that way, here in the USofA, but it is possible that you could someday find yourself in a great need, that only the stash of gold coins will satisfy.
---
Finally you ask: "Do I make any sense? Thoughts? Help me build on this, please!"
*****Yes, you indeed do make sense !! AND you have done more than the majority of sheeple, you have thought about this and ask questions to better understand it. BTW, have you ever heard a "negative type saying" that used an ending with the word "gold" ? Think about that! look at any rainbows lately? Well I hope that this long sequel to all the other great posters at this site answers some of your doubts. Think about this and then if you have some of those dead Presidents pictures on green paper laying about, use some to get the REAL stuff, physical Au.
<;-)
Peter Asher
Gandalf ??
Thank you for what I'm sure is a compliment, but what does PNW stand for ?
Gandalf the White
PNW
OOPS -- Peter, your eastern heritage is showing. The Pacific Northwest is known as this great green corner of the lower 48. One knows that the Northwest US is what those of MN and surrounds call home. And, when I lived in Northern Virginia and worked in DC, I had to be sure not to say that I was from Washington, as no one thinks of the PNW being the Washington that I ment. -- Sorry, to have used the colloquial slang.
<;-)
Peter Asher
Richard
I have come to see gold as something to have and to hold as the foundation for the surviving of calamity, not as a via for earning a profit. Per post #1853 of 1/17, <>

There are IMO, some ideal long term investment opportunities in our immediate area in timberland and vacation rental,(or survival) property. But first, build that foundation with gold coins.
Peter Asher
School shootings
http://www.insightmag.com/articles/story1.html#linkTOPThis subject has been disscused here, so I am forwarding this article from Insight Magazine. Excerpt follows --

. . . A great deal has been written about all of these cases. There have, however, been no indications that all of these children watched the same TV programs or listened to the same music. Nor has it been established that they all used illegal drugs, suffered from alcohol abuse or had common difficulties with their families or peers. They did not share identical home lives, dress alike or participate in similar extracurricular activities. But all of the above were labeled as suffering from a mental illness and were being treated with psychotropic drugs that for years have been known to cause serious adverse effects when given to children.
SteveH
I wrote this to a friend ...
XXXX,

The article I attached below explains gold is the unofficial reserve,
if you will, of most major Central Banks. As such, it may appear to
the 'average Joe or Jane' as JUST a commodity but alas, it is not.
Gold is currently ending an 18 year bear market. The potential upside
for it is phenomenal ($600 +). Many hedge funds have shorted it beyond
belief (perhaps because of the long bear) and are now unable to
payback gold loans with gold, leaving default, payback in Euros or
dollars as the only possible means. What we are in the midst of
witnessing currently is the unwinding of these large gold-short
positions but the players are finding that impossible to do without
systemic risks to their organizations.

Some have said that gold rises
in the east and sets in the west. By looking at the price of $259.50
spot currently you can see it is setting. The East, including major
oil producers and Europe, don't care for dollar dominance and want
gold back to its 'official' reserve status. As that didn't seem a
likely outcome, I believe, they backed the Euro with 15% gold backing
and brought the Euro on line to ultimately compete with the dollar.

This competition is what is dominating the world currency markets
currently and what appears to be behind the meteoric rise in the 30-yr
or long bond yield to above 6.07% today, which is putting downward
pressure on US stock markets. So we have these facts:

Gold is still more than a commodity, rather a crucial stich in
financial fabric.

Euro is competing with dollar for Reserve currency status.

Dollar is at all time high.

Gold at an all time low.

Paper gold is more shorted than ever before in history on Commodity
markets worldwide.

Physical gold is at highest demand in history.

US Stock market is at an all time high.

Triad of 'flight to safety' or safe havens are stocks, bonds, gold.
Currently money is in non-gold stocks and bonds, not gold.

Smart money and Eastern countries have been vigorously accumulating
physical gold.

Warren Buffet, some say is the worlds most astute investor, recently
bought 120 million ounces of silver (and some think gold too, quantity
unknown).

When you add up all these interesting areas, I personally can only
conclude that it is wise to look at gold and gold related investments
as a once in a life-time opportunity. Since we both grew up in the
70's we can remember gold's meteoric rise to over $800 in January of
1980. The same market forces at play then are amplified even more now
simply because their are significantly more dollars chasing a rare and
in-short-supply gold, which is suspected to be short sold to the tune
of 14,000 tons currently. What this spells out to me is gold has the
potential to rise to over $600 per ounce, if not more. If it does what
it did from 1971 through 1980, then gold could go higher still, maybe
$7K.

The word on the 'gold' street is that it is at or near bottom. That is
what makes it such a unique opportunity. Some long-time gold pundits
believe that when gold rises it will be meteoric. They say that if you
aren't attached to the meteor that it will be almost impossible to
catch. It rise will be fifty to hundreds of dollars per day. If I
hadn't seen it rised myself in 1980 over 25 times, I would find my own
words hard to digest, but I saw it, I was there. So were you. I
believe it is about to happen again.

When?

Rumors again state that gold could rise anytime now. The pressures on
it are mounting daily. Since its popularity is at 17% currently
(another record low), virtually nobody is positioned in it. Only the
smart money is in it. So when it goes it will blind-side everyone such
that they will say, "Geez, I wish I had got me some of that. Why the
heck wasn't I paying attention?"

Finally, the reason gold is about to snap into focus is simply, flight
to safety. With a stock market with only one place to go, down;
foreign markets rebuildiing and demanding more resources and
commodities; the Euro vying for reserve currency status; and inflation
and bond yields on the rise; and ultimately the current 10-14,000 ton
short paper position on gold with absolutely no physical gold
available except that which is central bank vaults to pay back these
gold-short positions, gold will rise quickly. Only those positioned
ahead of time will catch the shooting star. Now that you are made
aware, are you ready? Remember gold rises in the East and dawn is
near. The sky is brightening as this is written.

Gold's Role in the Monetary System

The WGC recently urged IMF leaders to lift their ban on member
countries' 'pegging' their currencies to gold.

In a speech to participants at a two-day meeting in New York,
organised by the Re-inventing Bretton Woods Committee, and attended by
senior officials of the IMF, the World Bank, the European Central Bank
and other national central banks, the Council said that efforts by the
IMF to demonetize gold had largely failed and gold was still the
second most valuable component in official sector reserves - behind
only the dollar - accounting for 16% of the total.


Excerpts from the Council's presentation follow:

"The result of the demonetisation attempt was to institutionalise
the hegemony of the U.S. dollar. The advent of the euro upsets this
stability. In this new environment, some would say that gold should be
put back on the agenda of those seeking to produce the blueprints for
the new financial architecture. Our contention, however, is that gold
has never been away - you have only to look at its continued role as a
major central bank reserve asset to accept that."

"Why should a Fund member not be allowed to link its currency in
some way to gold if it so wants? Currently Article IV 2(b) forbids
this. The move 25 years ago to "abolish" gold was designed to enthrone
the SDR instead. The SDR has not, however, succeeded in establishing
itself as a genuine international reserve asset. In such circumstances
there should surely be no reason why gold is precluded from competing
on all fours with other reserve assets. For the Fund to outlaw it in
the Articles is an outmoded restriction."

"One lesson from history was that international monetary
arrangements can and do change and the coming of the euro provides an
obvious opportunity to reconsider the whole system."

"For the last half-century the dollar has been the hegemonic
currency. Why? To start with - let us not forget -because of its
explicit gold link. Subsequently, because there was no possible
competitor and the U.S. was, after all, the strongest economy - and
possessed the most liquid capital markets - in the world."

"With a single hegemonic currency there were not many choices to
make. Now, there are two potentially equal reserve currencies - the
dollar and the euro. Although the combined capital market of the EU-11
is not yet as large as that of the U.S., it is still dramatically
larger than any of the previously individual European markets. Any
central bank looking to diversify its reserves now has a real
alternative."

"But one thing seems fairly clear. Now that countries have a
genuine choice between two global currencies, there are likely to be
significant moves in and out of them as sentiment ebbs and flows."

"Can the world live with competing currencies or will one
eventually become supreme? Or might gold, as a recognised store of
long-term value, stage a comeback on the international monetary scene?
It is probably worth noting here that all previous reserve currencies
(including, at the outset, the SDR) had some kind of link with gold."

"The problem with hegemonic currencies (be it the dollar or the
deutschemark) is that they are run purely for the benefit of their own
domestic economies, not for the benefit of any other country which
chooses to peg to them."

"Gold is the only external asset which is no one else's
liability. Now that we have the euro, some countries may decide to
take the relatively simple decision to define their basket as some
weighted combination of that currency and the dollar in order to hedge
their bets. An even more effective hedge, however, can be constructed
by incorporating some gold. Studies suggest that the volatility of a
central bank's reserve asset portfolio is reduced, and the risk/return
balance enhanced, by holding anything up to 20% in gold."

"Most central banks do not see it as their business to take
risks. By incorporating gold into both a currency basket used for
exchange rate management purposes and a reserve asset portfolio,
volatility is reduced and the risk/reward picture improved."

"Which brings us back to the IMF and - as we would contend - its
no-longer-justified prohibitions on various potentially useful roles
for gold. The IMF's own gold holdings - 103 million ounces, make it
the world's third largest single holder. In 1995, the Executive Board
held a long and thoughtful discussion on the subject and came to some
important conclusions. These included the view that gold provided a
fundamental strength to the IMF's balance sheet, and the Board felt
that the Fund should continue to hold a relatively large amount of
gold among its assets, not only for prudential reasons but also to
meet unforeseen contingencies."

"Nothing has happened in the outside world in the last 4 years to
invalidate these judgements. Indeed, given the systemic uncertainties
caused by the arrival of the euro, there are surely all the more
reasons for the official sector to preserve its gold holdings and
actively consider ways in which its real value can be utilised in this
brave new monetary world."

25 February 1999
Copyright � 1999 World Gold Council. All Rights Reserved
Contact: Dick Ware, Centre for Public Policy Studies
World Gold Council, London.
E-mail: dick.ware@wgclon.gold.org
http://www.gold.org/Pages/Home1.htm
Reprinted by permission of World Gold Council. Further reproduction
requires permission by World Gold Council.
Addendum from USAGOLD:
USAGOLD (2/24/99; 09:19:09MDT - Msg ID:2700)
Today's Gold Market Report: Backwardation, Gold Eagles Availability
Dries Up, Inside the World Gold Council Appointment of Haruko Fukuda
MARKET UPDATE (2/24/99):

The World Gold Council today appointed Haruko Fukuda chief executive
officer. Fukuda, a graduate of Cambridge University in Britain, takes
the reins at a time when the Council is attempting to recover from
budget cuts associated with reduced support from the mining industry.
There is a split in the mining industry between firms which make
substantial profits hedging and forwarding their metal and those that
take a more traditional approach to their mining activities. Many in
the gold industry feel that the advanced hedging and forwarding
strategies have worked to keep the metal's price in check -- a long
term negative for the industry.

In the press release announcing Fukuda's appointment, Don Morley, the
Council's chairman, stated that, "We have recently refocused the
organization's priorities. We believe those changes, and in particular
the new leadership that will be provided by Miss Fukuda, will generate
the basis for increased support from the world's gold producers."

What are these "refocused priorities?" A reliable source close to the
situation tells USAGOLD that the World Gold Council has changed its
emphasis and budget away from jewelry issues to economic priorities
revolving central bank holdings and investor issues.

"We want gold," says this source, "to be understood as a currency not
as a commodity and this is the direction that the Council is taken.
Fukuda's appointment reflects that change. Shrewd investors both
institutional and individual have begun to look at gold as a portfolio
holding and a currency hedge in view of what's going on in the world
economically -- the Brazils, the Indonesias, the Russias -- and are
diversifying accordingly. Diversification becomes the key and that
balance requires alternative assets like gold."

"In addition," he went on, "the council will take an aggressive
approach in educating the central banks about the holding of gold as a
reserve asset. The younger central bankers have taken a view like any
commercial or merchant banker by simply seeking the best return. This
has led to the mobilization of reserves that may not be in the best
interest of that country in the long run. We are asking: 'What
happened to the central bank mandate to protect the value of the
currency and the assets of the country?' With Fukuda's grasp of
international finance, we hope to educate central bankers about the
future role of gold in central bank portfolios."

And how will this "generate the basis for increased support from the
world's gold producers?"

"There has been a renewed enthusiasm, " says our source, "for the
traditional view of gold within some of the top mining companies. This
view is being translated to World Gold Council philosophy and
operations as you can tell from some of my previous statements. The
growing opinion is that we should rally around gold as an industry. We
feel that the appointment of Ms. Fukuda is a step in that direction."
SteveH
August gold now...
$261

Looking at the daily gold chart, I see a one-half leg V. Now if we have 30-days of rising gold prices that would complete the V wouldn't it. Here's hoping (gulp puff...hack...hack...don't smoke...sorry)
Tomcat
Peter Asher: Who will inherit our gold?

Peter, your post on the school violence was very appropriate. For many of us, a reason to hold gold is to have something to pass to our children. Unfortunately, many of our children are being undermined through school induced drugs like Ritalin and Prozac. I looked into 9 massacers and every one of the gunman had been connected to a psychiatrist or psychologist who had them on drug/medications. The source of those drugs is the psychiatrist/psychologist community which on the surface looks sane but their final product is what you see coming out of the schools today. I know that that is an unpopular thing to say about the psychiatrist/psychologist community but they are the source of the school drugging.

Even if your child is not on Prozac or Ritalin, the chances are your childs friends are on one of those drugs. How is a drugged child going to grow up strong enough to follow our footsteps associated with liberty, soveriegnty, entrepreneurship and gold? Do we want our children to be passive drugged sheep?

I home school my son, who by the way, earns his own money and whose savings is in gold!

Home school. Get you some!
Cavan Man
To SteveH
Please accept my personal thanks for all of your hard work at this FORUM. I am learning much from you and others.
mike55
Tomcat & Peter Asher
Thank you both for your excellent postings. I know who will inherit my gold, and they are certainly deserving of it.

I know children who have been helped by Ritalin when the dosage is controlled and properly administered. Unfortunately, many of the prescriptions written for drugs such as Ritalin and Prozac for children are a sad commentary on our medical field, parenting, and our society in general. It is indicative of the attitude of instant gratification and the search for a quick-fix that is so pervasive in our society that leads doctors and parents alike to support this epidemic. Remember, this is occuring with parental permission.

Many children who are starved for attention will tend to "act out" to gain it -- they are children -- that's what they do. Many parents, too busy chasing the material world or whining about not having enough time for "me", direct their children to the electronic companions of video games and television. Is it any wonder why childrens' attention spans are eroded without time taken for reading, conversation, and thought?

While we don't home school our three sons, their primary moral education is received at home and reinforced at parochial school. The results are most promising as we have a 17, 15, and 12 year old who are among the most intelligent, polite, honest, and decent kids you will meet (note: parental license taken here). The boys have also been given a start in their wealth building with gold, and they continue to add to it with a portion of their modest allowances.

Take heart, be positive -- the future is bright! There are many, many young people out there who are being raised properly and have the ability to be the peer and opinion leaders of the future.
Cavan Man
Tomcat,Mike55,Peter Asher
I want to chime in on the subject before returning to the topic of GOLD for the day. We have three young daughters all under the age of 6 so we are new at the parenting game and have much to learn. I think the keys are attention and love. Being a parent is a very difficult task. Many people do not accept the challenge completely and comprehensively. Our middle daughter definitely has that "middle child syndrome" thing. We can see it clearly. For her, we go the extra and might I add, difficult mile. The journey with her will be many miles but it will be worth it; she is a gift from Above and the most beautiful child in the world. We know a couple who have an eight year old on Ritalin. Poor thing, she always looks spaced out. She is quite bright and her younger sister is extremely bright with lots of energy. I fear she will be next in line for the drug. The problem from our limited viewpoint is one of not enough attention. The mother just recently left her position (kids 8 & 4) and the father is an attorney who has lots of hobbies. The kids are loved much but I think have not had and do not get enough attention. I do not believe in the drug. Patience with love, attention and discipline are what's required. Having patience is very difficult. I know. I am one of the most impatient persons I have ever met.
ss of nep
Indoctrination
In Ontario Canada, the public school system has already been destroyed.

The following is one point of view of what is going on with the American school system.

http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/zerotol.html

Very distressing.
Peter Asher
Tom, Mike, Cavan.
It is gratifying to receive such a profound and immediate response. I actually hesitated to post the article because earlier comments of mine regarding the subject didn't get much comment. The public is finally starting to realize the absurdity of this devastation and hopefully it will become a full blown issue and be removed from our environment (while we still have one).

It is interesting how things of great destructive nature to our society become the accepted norm. --- As in the current worship of Fiat money.
Golden Truth
******* Quickie GOLD MARKET REPORT*******
GOLD is up, Euro is up, Europe is up,Oil is up,and Bonds are what more do you need to know. Golden Truth.

Peter Asher
**** Today's Market Report ****
Gold rallied steadily in Asia overnight and continued upward to $261.00 in early London trading on rumors That the Bank of England would put a reserve price on the upcoming auction. The gains faded though, after a memorandum on the Banks web site Friday morning made no mention of any such condition. However, after opening in NY at $258.85, gold climbed again to $259.70 as of 8:00 AM EDT, up $1.40 from yesterdays NY close.

Wall street is fluctuating moderately on the upside, as investors search desperately through more of the token statistics for continued justification to remain in this socially accepted form of investment. Heaven forbid one would have to admit they got out of the market and it went higher!

Gold, meanwhile seems to have found its bottom, as traders and investors alike, recognize a blatantly oversold condition. It is this writers suspicion that the Bank of England and company will conjure up some surprise propaganda to get the price of gold back upstairs before the July 6thauction. At the moment, their advance announcement has reduced the market value of their gold by one million dollars per ton!

That's it for this morning, keep in touch with the Forum for later reports on trading day.
ET
Stranger

Hey Stranger - thanks for the reply. Just a short note here as I'm off to my 30-year high school reunion until Sunday. I can't believe 30 years! How times have changed since I was a high schooler.

You wrote;

'When Volcker was named to the Fed chairmanship, the dollar had been made unsound by years of
excess money growth. Knowing full well that reversing that growth would throw MILLIONS of
Americans out of work, he couragously charged ahead and did it anyway. Yes, the result has been
eighteen years of a relatively sound dollar achieved without the backing of gold. So, IT CAN BE
DONE.'

'But circumstances today do not compare well with the Volcker period, in my opinion. They are
much more similar to the Arthur Burns Fed of the early '70s. Then, as now, the money supply was
allowed to grow rapidly. I am not here to argue whether the recipe was well-advised, either then or
now. But I do suggest that we have been baking the same cake.'

Yeah, agreed. Yes, the only difference is probably the overall scope of the money creation. The US has certainly popularized the notion of excess money creation worldwide.

'As to your final question, ET, yes, I recall that creating an alternative reserve currency was part of
the rationale behind the Euro. However, while the Euro may be temporarily oversold, so inchoate a
currency can hardly be considered the equal of the U.S. Dollar. Furthermore, let us not forget that
Euroland is comprised of some of the world's most unabashed welfare states, while America sports
the free-est economy on the planet.'

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly more so than Europe, as you note. I would probably argue the most free populace in the world today is the Russians. The so-called underground (free-market) economy in Russia probably represents 75% of the overall economy. Virtually no tax collection for protection by the government. This taxation has been replaced by so-called mafia (private) protection. I've corresponded with a couple of young Russians the last couple of years and their viewpoint of the situation is 180 degrees from the regular media as to the situation there. They see nothing but good times ahead for themselves and the 'new' generation coming up. They note that the 'pensioners' and others relying on the state for their incomes are the only losers. The young have adopted a real free market approach to things and have for all intents and purposes abandoned the state and it's institutions.

My point I guess is that all is relative. We probably perceive ourselves as being the most free (as you note), but in real terms this is probably somewhat misplaced. Our viewpoint is colored by what we hear everyday in the media and little is known to most about how the situation might really be elsewhere. However, in the end, I do agree with your assessment of Europe. I'll bet you if you asked Europeans how they assess their situation, you would get some argument. Most don't perceive themselves as Socialists even though from our perspective they most certainly have gone further down that road than the US.

I do have a couple of other insights from my Russian friends that I'll share with you Sunday. Good to see you back.

ET


Technician
Imminent gold move?
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutres/purifoy.htmlAs I write, crude is nearing contract highs steady buying all day. Dollar is coming apart and has put in long term top. Gold seems to be waiting. And I do not think too long. Strong close today could be the smiley face I promised last week.
turbohawg
Peter
>It is interesting how things of great destructive nature to our society become the accepted norm. --- As in the current worship of Fiat money. <

I agree 100% and would suggest that those mutant norms are directly and indirectly the ultimate result of that fiat money foundation ... the acceptance of the easy way out ... getting something for nothing ... not earning one's own way ... avoiding personal responsibility.

It's my belief that once the fiat money standard crumbles, the ensuing hardship most will be forced to endure will change the norms ... over time, of course ... and not before a period of chaos and possibly violence.

It was a pleasure reading the comments of Jinx44 and Oregon Geezer the other day ... I'm with them. Their thoughts are similar to others I know and represent to me a sentiment indicator of where we're going when the lid finally blows.

Stranger, good to see you're still out there ...
Goldfly
*******Today's Gold Report*******
Gold: 262.0 UP 1.90
Silv: 5.11 Up 0.01
Euro: 1.054 Up 0.006
(Current)

Greetings fellow Goldkeisters, the yellow metal is doing quite well today considering the bashing it's had to endure these past weeks. There's been a bit of volatility these past few days, perhaps this represents the beginning of gold's break to the upside?

As promised yesterday I have a special guest with me. An aficionado of gold for years, he also has some remarkable insight to the inner workings of reserve banking. Elvis do you have a few words for our august assemblage?

(Goldfly ducks and turns, puts on some dark glasses and turns up his collar�..)

Sure man. Hey folks, let me tell you, I KNOW somethin' about gold. I know my mama looovved that gold Cadillac I got her. You know, when I was boy, and my daddy gave up runnin' moonshine; he became one of those- what you call- "Central Bankers." He'd come home late at night dragging a big sack of money. Then he'd go sit in the back room and count that money. He'd sing little song while he was counting. It's where I got the idea for 'Love Me Tender'. It goes something like this��.


Legal tender, paper free
Central banker's shill
Convince the public it's money,
and with it pay the bills

Legal tender, I.O.U.
Keynesian dreams fulfilled
For from nothing, I make you,
Inflating at my will

Legal tender, Ponzi scheme
Deposits will not stay
We'll keep just a few percent,
the rest we'll lend away

Legal tender, Parchment-Goo
Keynesian dreams fulfilled
For from nothing, I make you,
Inflating at my will

Legal tender, Reserve Note
Presses on the roll
With you we will buy the vote
and steal the nation's soul

Legal tender, I.O.U.
Keynesian dreams fulfilled
For from nothing, I make you,
Inflating at my will

For from nothing, I make you,
And inflate the World

GF
beesting
New Russia- Land of the free
First,welcome back Sir Stranger,a huge thank you for your veiws.

I'd like to respond to ET's Msg,7473 in part:
Virtually no tax collection for protection by the Government. This taxation has been replaced by so called Mafia(private)protection.

Good Post Sir ET:
Seems like every society is divided into 2 groups,one that wants a higher authority to take care of all responsibilities in life,and the other group which wants no help whatsoever in being a responsible person or family.IMHO many in the second group get drawn into the first group by majority rule.
If you can take time to look up the meaning of the word "sovereignty",this is what ownership of wealth in the form of Gold can provide no matter what countries flag you were born under or live under.
Please look around!! All countries that I know of are presently encouraging private ownership of physical Gold.This may be the first time in recorded history that this event is happening.
Now think about this in relation to Sir ET's post,the people and families in Russia seem to be saying,we'll form our own Governing body.
Does anyone think 1776 in the U.S.A. was similar?
If you reading this lived in Russia right now don't you think physical ownership of Gold would inhance your chances of a better life for you and your loved ones in the future?
GOLD get you some........beesting
TownCrier
*******Today's Gold Market Report: Gold enters weekend on a positive note*********
MARKET REPORT(6/11/99): Overnight markets saw gold up $3.00 through asian and early european trading that toyed with the $261 level before selling in the London market brought it back from whence it came. Throughout the remainder of the day, buyers held firm at $259, and New York at day's end reveals the buyers took control with a price that now stands at $260.50 as we go to fetch this over to the server.

Gold's early price rebound was attributed by metal dealers to short covering sparked by rumors that the Bank of England might put a reserve price on its July gold auction. In an Information Memorandum released today by the Bank of England on behalf of HM Treasury for the Government Gold Auction Programme, no such reserve price was mentioned, though the Bank of England does reserve the right at its discretion not to allot all of the gold offered, and further, to determine whether a bid price is deemed to be "acceptable". The memorandum futher indicated that within 45 minutes of the 11:30 am close of bidding on the auction dates, the BOE will announce the total amount of gold bid for, the lowest accepted price, the scaling factor to be applied to bids made at that price and the amount of gold allotted. This is a level of transparency that will be welcomed by many goldmeisters in consideration of the rather exclusive list of eligible participants in this auction, which is primarily limited to central banks or others with BOE gold accounts, and market makers and ordinary members of the LBMA.

Speaking of the LBMA, the London Bullion Market Association today announced average daily cleared turnover for gold in May rose to 32.6 million ounces, a one-third increase over April's volume. That's a whopping 1,000 tonnes traded each day, folks! For those that still insist on measurement of gold in dollar terms, the value of gold turnover in May rose to US $9 billion from $7.1 billion in April, with the added volume more than offsetting the lower average price of gold.

The latest $10.00 fall in the price of gold has generated persistent talk of central bank sales, despite a spate of official denials.
"I think there have been some official sales over the last 10 days, quite a lump of them I think, probably a couple of million ounces," said one bullion dealer in London.
Speculation also points the finger at hedge selling by Australian gold producers. However, today some of the major central banks in the Asia-Pacific region responded with denial that they may be behind the weaker prices, and regional dealers think that the hedge selling of Australian producers is continuing at a smaller scale than widely believed.
And as we alluded here in yesterday's report, a senior official of the Central Bank of Russia has now said today that the CBR does not plan to sell large amounts of gold out of its gold reserves to pay the country's foreign debts due this year. This is very much in keeping with the philosophy held by the Bank of Greece, which remains a target of rumors of CB gold selling. In a repeat of the denials reported here yesterday also, a senior bank official said today, "The Bank categorically denies such rumors. The Central Bank of Greece has no intention of selling gold because the foreign exchange reserves are already at US $21 billion and there is no reason for us to sell gold."

Back on the British front, Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown said he was confident Germany would agree to IMF gold sales in advance of the IMF's autumn meeting. It had been reported earlier that German finance ministry sources indicated it was unlikely there would be an agreement on IMF gold sales until that autumn meeting in Washington. On top of Britain's upcoming gold auctions, one can only wonder why the UK has been such an aggressive marketeer of negative sentiment through fostering a perception that the world shall be flooded with gold from official sources. It surely is not an attempt to generate the best price in their auction. In fact, the media seems to have found a popular target for mockery, with many reports quick to point out the price of gold has fallen $30 to $259.5 per troy ounce (from around $289.0) before the announcement to sell 125 tonnes of gold in the 1999/2000 financial year, and similar amounts in following years until the present 715-tonne stockpile is cut to 300 tonnes. We can only assume that price is no object, perhaps because developments unknown to the common market will result in a completely oversubscribed auction, and that these same unknown develpments require the false(?) hope of IMF gold sales to keep the wolves from the door. As always, time will tell.

In the meanwhile, the low prices will cast a pall over the proceedings next week of the annual Financial Times World Gold Conference which starts in London on Monday. Attendees include a gathering of gold miners, central bankers, analysts. You've got to ask yourself, why would central bankers attend if the popular notion held by Wall Street were true...that gold is JUST a commodity?

All in all, gold was the shining star of the markets today with its $2 gain as oil climbed over $18 again. The DOW is down 130, the Nasdaq down 36, and the 30-year bond remains unattractive to investors, despite a further plunge in price that has driven its yield to 6.135% in a bond market summarized by one trader, "It's a bloodbath again today." Market sentiment was said to be poor because of a rumored Fed meeting about a bailout for a troubled hedge fund. (Could such a situation within the LBMA be driving the Bank of England's actions as characterized earlier??) The Federal Reserve declined to comment as rumors swept through New York financial markets. "As a matter of policy, we don't respond to rumors,'' said a Fed spokesman about a possible meeting to deal with a hedge fund.
Hold on tight, folks..LTCM began with rumors, too. This could be a long weekend for those caught on the wrong side of the market.

Let's hope MK is enjoying his vacation in the mountains. I shall be sure to express my respect for his daily efforts to compile a market report...trying it twice was more than enough for me, so don't expect one tomorrow! That's it for today, fellow Goldmeisters. Enjoy the weekend!

In the latest News & Views, MK reportedly rambles through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and gives the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is promised to be a quick and interesting read. Please go to the ORDER FORM
(click on the "Info Packet" link near the top of this page) or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- the widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold up $2.2 on dealer buying
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 11--COMEX Aug gold settled up $2.2 at $262.3 per ounce
on dealer buying ahead of the weekend, attempting to reverse its recent
downward trend after losing more than $7 since Tuesday. Nevertheless, most
traders and analysts said they still expect more downward pressure prior
to the UK Treasury's Jly 6 gold auction. Sep palladium settled down $6.1
at $344.8 per ounce after hitting a 1.5-week low of $341 on dealer
liquidation and profit-taking.

Rumors flourished today that Tiger Fund was liquidating some of its
long positions in palladium and covering short positions in gold, leading
to a fall in palladium prices and a rise in gold prices. There was talk
these moves were being made because of large redemptions by the fund.
However, Tiger today said it could pay out these redemptions fourfold and
noted that the rumor that the NY Federal Reserve had called an emergency
meeting on the matter was absurd. There was also talk that Tiger was a seller
of palladium on the London fix.

Aug gold ran out of selling after hitting fresh 20-year lows this week
and is showing decent support by dealers, said traders. One trader said
most of the uptick was technically-motivated dealer short-covering ahead
of the weekend.

Gold lease rates are at about 2%, said an analyst, noting that there's
some borrowing of gold for forward, "which is a bearish indicator."
Despite this latest uptick, most said they continue to hold bearish
sentiment on gold: "Everyone is really abandoning gold right now," said a
trader. "The funds are sitting tight on their short positions and
commission houses are switching to internet stocks."

But another trader said he was not too sure that gold was headed
downward.
"I think gold needs to spend time consolidating before it figures out
which way to go," he said.

Today's gold option's expiry passed without much activity, traders
said. The focus of the gold options expiry was $260 puts, which
effectively kept the market in a $2 range either side of this level.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
TownCrier
U.S. Treasuries routed, Fed rumors spark sell-off
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990611/7l.htmlAn ugly end to an ugly week for an ugly dollar bond.
TownCrier
Tiger fund dismisses rumor of excessive redemption
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990611/1r.htmlYou can almost see the fear in their eyes and the blood in the water. Markets move on fear and greed, and little can be done to stem the tide.
TownCrier
Currency tea leaves -- IMM currencies end higher, sterling up sharply
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990611/5p.htmlCurrency traders use their straight-edges and nose for the news to support their gambling habits on the foreign exchange markets...another typical day of tea leaves.
TownCrier
WEEK AHEAD- U.S. data, Greenspan and BoJ call tune
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990611/x8.htmlA good summary of events to be factored into your market decisions...
TownCrier
ANALYSIS--Fed cannot let growth experiment fail
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990611/i3.htmlNew York Fed President William McDonough last month said it took courage for the Fed to ``dare defy economic models'' and embark on a growth experiment while central banks usually focus on fighting inflation -- not boosting growth or employment.

Gandalf the White
*********CLOSING Market Report*********************
After a long hard day at the mine, Gandy has returned with another pocket savings for four more Hobbits, and turned to his favorite "Golden Guru" for an update. Please read the following facts of the day as presented by Kaplan, THEN read the observations of the Hobbits overviews of the day traders' adventures. Have a great weekend and let us do this again next week. Til then, as Ari sez: "Make you some!"
----
Gold Mining Outlook by Steven Jon Kaplan
http://www.goldminingoutlook.com.
Updated @ 4:50 p.m. EDT, Friday, June 11, 1999.

"THOUGHT OF THE DAY: It is likely that the COMEX gold net long commercial position as of Thursday's (June 10, 1999) close was at an all-time high, and was approximately one hundred thousand contracts. Assuming that no external economic event triggers short covering, a major gold producer could easily cause the speculator shorts to massively panic by proclaiming that they are buying back a
substantial portion of their forward hedge position." Total COMEX gold open interest was 209,594 as of Thursday's close. There are virtually no speculators who are long gold, while commercials are very heavily net long. Technical indicators are showing downside exhaustion. Commodities are strong and gold shares are resilient. Traders' commitments for all major currencies show commercials heavily short the U.S. dollar. The ingredients of a rapid short-covering rally in the yellow metal are all there. Gold is likely to hit $290 per ounce within a few weeks." Friday's COMEX gold estimated volume was a light 20,000 lots. Total COMEX gold open interest on Thursday rose 2,455 to 209,594 contracts, demonstrating moderate commercial accumulation on a day when gold fell $1.00, which is bullish. An open interest this high when commercials are heavily net long has always signaled a major short-term rally. COMEX gold warehouse stocks fell 50,250 to 870,689 ounces."

TRADERS' COMMITMENTS (COT):
One of the most important factors affecting the market is the traders' commitments as reported every second Friday by the COMEX. These commitments tell you what the commercials, or industry insiders, are doing vs. the non-commercial
outsiders, also known as speculators. If the insiders, such as producers, jewelers, fabricators, and industrial users, are buying, while the speculators are selling short, this is BULLISH. If insiders are selling as fast as they can,
while speculators are buying left and right, this is BEARISH. Readers interested in the official traders' commitments for all commodities and financial instruments
should go to http://www.cftc.gov/ for many years of data."

"On Friday, June 11, 1999, the XAU opened slightly higher at 61.70, slumped to an early afternoon bottom of 61.32,
then rallied to close at its intraday peak of 62.77, up 1.93%."
-------
Thanks Kaplan!
=====
Spot the Dog ended the week at US$260.50 with an upward tilt to Friday's session. Aug Gold (GC9Q) settled the week at US$262.30 but the volume that had surged during the precious three day, settled back to normal levels.
The most important action of Friday was the performance of the long bond --- IT WAS HORRIBLE !! The bond closed at 6.135%, the worst levels of the day. The DOW started with a gain but started to slip at about noon and finished the day off over 130 points, at 10,490. -- The S&P tracked the DOW but ended off only a little over 9 points at 1,293+. The R2K (Russell 2,000) closed on the bottom of the day, off over 4 points,(1%; while the NAS closed near the low, and lost the most percentage wise at - 1.47% on the day.
--
The Hobbits "best loser" on the day was MPN off 44% on the day. Yesterdays, best gainer on the NYSE, ZOOM, was off one percent today on 400+K shares. PHCM was the "best winner" today, up 150% or 24 points to close at 40 on the day with turnover of 8 1/4 million shares.
---
Closing comment --- this time period will be remembered by Goldhearts as one of those items such as: Did you see the live shots of the Astronauts walk on the Moon? Where were you when the report of President Kennedy being shot in Dallas was announced ? Remember when the Hunt Bro's tried to monopolize the Silver market ? AND remember Goldfly's first song ? -- "I've got Au BABE"
---
<;-)
turbohawg
Ayn Rand, woman of the century ??
http://www.cascadepolicy.org/liberty/aynrand.htmfrom the Oregonian ... you folks up in the, uh, PNW may have already seen this article.
Peter Asher
God speed 'Bones', Full Ahead, warp factor ten!
http://news.excite.com/news/r/990611/20/news-entertainment-kelleyOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Actor DeForest Kelley, beloved by millions for his portrayal of the crusty deep-space doctor "Leonard 'Bones' McCoy" on the original Star Trek TV series, died Friday at age 79.


Born DeForest Jackson Kelley in Atlanta, Ga., on Jan. 20, 1920, his career dream was to become a doctor like the uncle who delivered him.But his family did not have the funds to send him to medical school and Kelley drifted into singing and theater. A Paramount scout spotted him in a Navy training film and signed him to a contract at the studio as a bit player.

He represented humanity and it fitted him well," Nimoy said. "He was a decent, loving, caring partner and will be deeply missed."
Cavan Man
turbohawg
I have the 40th edition of Atlas Shrugged; I loved it although I skipped the epistle (end of book) by John Galt. Her scholarship is original and for the most part, inspiring in AS. I began The Fountainhead but put it down because, she is too predictable. Her fatal flaw? She was an atheist; IMHO, that disqualifies her for the honor. It would have been an honor to debate that point with her. I believe I would have trounced her.
Cavan Man
"Woman of the Century"
Since the declaration by Hilary (is that "ll") that she is a "Yankee" fan, I would have figured she could give AR a run for the money (in popular culture i.e.)
Richard, Oregon
Gandalf, Peter A, Others Interested
Gandalf - Peter A - Great thoughts. I think we're on the right track. I see this becoming a list of key statements (with lines of further enlightenment as required) that I can refer to on occasion and maybe more importantly, refer others to (my own children come to mind). Words of wisdom, proverbs, etc., something you can really hang your hat on, so to speak. (Do not misunderstand my query, my foundation is and will continue to be, well grounded in the yellow metal. I have gained MUCH respect for gold and, I must admit, it has been accomplished through this forum and the wisdom, understanding, and knowledge of the humble knights and ladies at the table of round.)

I'm behind in my reading. I've only read through #7461, Peter's post last night. I'm extremely busy, no let up in site, this is my Christmas season. The weather in Oregon has FINALLY turned warm, so I'm scoopin' AND getting ready to transfer a business to a new owner. Seven days a week now for the last month or so. I'm tired.

I plan to draft key statements from our thoughts, add those words necessary to clarify or build on the thought(s) contained in the statement, and then present the list to the forum for further discussion/clarification. It will take me awhile so be patient and 'keepem' comin'. More later. Anyone else have thoughts regarding my questions in "Richard, Oregon (6/10/99; 21:11:39MDT - Msg ID:7455)" {PS - Gandalf, I'd like to pose a question or two to you and Peter, offline. I have Peter's email address and maybe he has yours. If so, would it be ok for Peter to pass yours on to me? Or Peter, it is ok for you to pass mine on to Gandalf. If he doesn't, email CPM with a message to me. Again, it will take me awhile to get back to you guys.} God Bless!
Peter Asher
Turbo
Thanks for the URL on Ayn Rand, we don't 'do' the paper every day and missed that article.

From my 'biography' post #2502 of 2/17 PM, >To me the basic premise of "Atlas Shrugged" was summed up by Francisco's statement "An honest man is one who knows that he cannot consume more than he produces". This was the original trigger to my interest in economics, and is the foundation for all of my own theories.<

Unfortunately she got hooked into creating the 'Objectivist' movement with her psychiatrist idol, Nathaniel Brandon. I remember getting in livid arguments with followers of that distortion of her concepts, back about 1962 in (Where else) the original Greenwich Village.

I read that the TV special got into this, but we don't 'do' TV at all. Did anyone catch that show??
Peter Asher
Gandalf
Just sent you Richard's E-Mail address
Peter Asher
Cavan Man
I concur about Ayn Rand's flaw, it has created much resistance to the basic truth of her philosophy,
and therefore denied economic understanding to many people. (I once had a passionate relationship of great potential, crash and burn over this one defect in Ayn Rand's philosophy)

I too would like the opportunity to debate with her over that blind spot, as the say, "knowing what I know now."
Beowulf
Interesting Month
Great market posts today everyone, thanks for all the information. I find it interesting that everytime gold starts to go up, whether it is at 20 year lows or in the 290's we get rumors of Central Bank selling. Well those rumors today were smashed back in their faces today with rumors of hedge fund(s) trying to cover. Serves them right.

Anyway, while I was at the dealer today picking up another 5 Maple Leafs we got to talking. The most interesting thing that he mentioned was a gold/silver dealer friend trading in England was told not to mention to anyone who he was selling to. He was threatend that he would never be allowed to ever borrow Precious Metals again if he did. Something smells stinks around here and I don't like the smell of it.

Monday I called my broker to switch my Janus Balanced Fund (1/2 bonds, 1/2 stock) Roth IRA to a Gold Fund. She didn't sound to happy about that but I told her to do it anyway. The switch was done when gold and gold funds were at their lowest Wednesday, I couldn't have gotten luckier. I noticed today that the Janus Fund was down $0.17 and the Gold fund was up $0.07, guess I got in at the right time.

Beowulf
Oh I forgot to mention
Anybody remember that rumor that the price of Gold would be allowed to rise the second week in June? What week are we in now? What is gold doing?

Is the Bank of England now trying to get the price to rise before the sale?
Usul
Nightmare
The sorcerer has departed for a while on private business...
Meanwhile, the apprentice found the sorcerer's book of
magic, and not deigning to write his own report, commanded
the broomstick to write the market report... Uh-oh, the
broomstick won't stop! The apprentice can't find the stop
spell! Even chopping the broomstick up doesn't work, as its
pieces transform into little broomsticks, each writing their
own market reports! Oh No! Market report overload!

[Heh heh, but your efforts are appreciated nonetheless, keep
it up!]
Oregon Geezer
turbohawg message #7487
As a long time resident of the Portland Gulag in the Peoples' Republic of Oregon I am well aware of newspaper monopoly called The Oregonian, aka Pravda West. After years of shelling out bucks for my subscription I finally had it and canceled last November. Boy, do I feel better!
The Cascade Policy Institute is a lone conservative think tank in this nest of liberal vipers. The Institute is thorn in the backside of our liberal politicians and The Oregonian. God bless 'em.
SteveH
the rush for the gold...
from www.the-privateer.com.

Having just arrived back from a visit to the Australian website listed above, I made note of his comments below:

"As you can see, the technical formation on the $US Gold charts remains unchanged. No bottom formation here. To consider the potential for a turnaround, please take a good look at our Gold Commentary page.

But even if this does turn out to be the "bottom", and that is still unproven, there is ALWAYS lots of time to get aboard. We have no technical signals yet. As soon as we get some, assuming we do, you will see them here."


Yet I remind myself of other equally adroit statements about gold's explosive capabilities in view of its historical short position and ever increasing open interest numbers now standing at over 209,000. So, with all due respect to Mr. Buckler, a better strategy would be to dollar cost average any gold positions as I believe when the rush is on, the cookie jar mouth will only allow one hand in at a time. The only way to get in faster will be to break the cookie jar, expose its content, and the gasp will be heard, "oh, its empty!"

Of course lots of folks will be asking, "Well, why were they selling tickets, if they didn't have any cookies to begin with?"

"Ahh, but we did have cookies, but we never thought the rush would be so great. We sold them all, but the money was soooo good that we just kept on selling tickets. Our suppliers told us they had more coming. They were cooking them as quickly as they could."

"Didn't you think that you shouldn't have sold tickets, if you didn't have the cookies?"

"Well, our suppliers told us they had devoted the next ten years production to filling our needs, so we thought we could just sell the tickets but never believed once that our customers would actually all come at once to get their cookies."

"I guess you've been had just as we have been had."

"Yeah, reckon so."

Time to dollar cost average. Do you smell the fresh aroma of cookies baking in the oven?
Xavier
Dear Steve,
http://www.angelfire.com/de/goldnotes/index.html When I tried to draw a complicated flow chart of the "gold carry trade", I realised "the basics" still confuse me. Heres a simple version as I understand it...would you be able to spend a minute to correct my fundamentals? I know that I am wrong somewhere. Also, I can not figure where trading on the COMEX fits in. Pardon for revealing my ignorance but I got to understand before I can continue.
Is Step 1 called "the Gold Carry Trade"?
When the Miner accepts $ for its future production, this is called "selling forward", right? It gets cash-in-hand. Is "Hedging" is a different game again?
Is the reason for the "gold deficit" Mining companies not paying back physical gold that they themselves dug out, but instead buying "above ground" paper gold to pay back the Bullion Banks?
Thanks for your posts, Steve.
Tomcat
An Argement by JP for Illiquidity/Deflation and a Rise in the POG
Arguments for a coming liquidity/inflation have been presented by many. Fewer argements for illiquidity/deflation have been presented.

The Stranger recently pointed out the one of the contributing factors that lead to the rise in the price of gold in the past was illiquidity. There is evidence that we are moving into an illiquid phase now. Below are some quotes from JP at Kitco who feels that such illiquidity will lead to deflation/depression with a resultant flight to gold. First are some JP quotes from the past few weeks and then his comments from this week as bonds rates rose and stocks declined.

JP: "...As deflation accelerates and businesses file for bankruptcy,investor money will be seeking safety which
will be found in gold. This coupled with the US government
purchases of gold on the open market ( within 2 years ) to make the dollar convertible again, will propell gold prices to much higher levels. As I have said before, we are headed into a massive depression and there is nothing any one can do about it. Deflation will run to exhaustion which is years away.

JP.... As deflation accelerates and businesses file for bankruptcy,investor money will be seeking safety which
will be found in gold. This coupled with the US government
purchases of gold on the open market ( within 2 years ) to make the dollar convertible again, will propell gold prices to much higher levels. As I have said before, we are headed into a massive depression and there is nothing any one can do about it. Deflation will run to exhaustion which is years away.

JP.... Historically, gold always took off after the public realized that a depression is ahead. Right now people
are very optimistic and fully invested in stocks. As equities decline and losses are realized by the majority of investors, a search will begin for investments that will buck the deflationary trend and rise during the coming debacle. Since markets always anticipate events ahead by 6-12 months, I believe that gold should start rising very soon. Again, no one has perfect timing, but investing in high quality mining shares will be rewarding as
we move ahead.

Date: Mon Jun 07 1999 17:46 JP: Commercial loans at US banks rose $2.7B last week to $948.7. With the banks fully loaned out, a rise in interest rates will cause illiquidity problems which will end up in massive defaults. Banks capital is at minimum these days. Any bank runs will cause problems which may not be solved by the US government. Dollar shortages are worsening and the third world countries have just about given up on any future payments of principle debt. The IMF is loaning money to Russia so they could pay interest on previous loans coming due this year. What
a farce.

Date: Mon Jun 07 1999 19:09 JP: The Fed has no control over interest rates. Interest rates are set by the market based on supply and demand. When demand is strong, rates will rise and and when demand is slow ,rates will fall. The Fed just follows short term interest rates and will adjust it's own
rates to market rates. Right now, loans demand is very strong because there are dollar shortages. As deflation intensifies and dollar shortages worsens, demand will become even stronger as people and corporations borrow money just to stay alive and in business. Many will default and only few and the most liquid will survive.


Date: Mon Jun 07 1999 19:22 JP: The long bond is approaching 6% yield. Real rate of return on the long bond is skyrocketing to an annual rate of almost 4% (long bond return minus the inflation rate ) assuming an inflation rate of 2% and it will continue to rise. I think the long bond
may exceed 8% yield within the next 4 months as deflation intensifies. At 8% yield the economy will be in big trouble and the equity market will decline.

Date: Tue Jun 08 1999 14:29 JP: Gold price will take off JUST before the financial hits. Until then, it will linger and and may even decline a bit further. When the Dow declines 10-15% from recent high's, gold will be purchased as a replacement for financial assets in massive quantities by everyone with capital to lose. The move to safety in gold will astound you all as credit collapses and many will find
themself homeless overnight.

Date: Tue Jun 08 1999 14:44
JP: The long bond is approaching 6% yield. Once the long bond yield rises above 6%, the decline in stocks will accelerate and money will move into T bills and money markets instruments. As yields continues to rise and approach 8%, the financial panic will hit.

Date: Tue Jun 08 1999 15:30
JP: Why interest rates will not decline until the financial panic hits. In previous market declines, interest rates declined as the market declined. Today, rising interest rates reflect illiquidity problems in the banking system. With the rest of the world either in recession or about to enter recession, the competition for available dollars for debt payments is intensifying. Countries, corporations and individuals need dollars to satisfy growing debt service burden. It's a paradox that in
deflation and slowing economies rates are rising instead of declining. Long rates will continue to rise until the financial panic hits.

Date: Wed Jun 09 1999 19:39
JP: Defaults will intensify as deflation worsens. The time has come for a complete debt clean out. Sounds futuristic? Not so, deflation has a tendency to clean house. A major stock market crash will be the catalyst that accelerates the process and we will start all over again. The long bond is the key. We are in a cyclic bond bear market which will end only after the coming crash. When will the crash take place? No one knows, but an 8% yield will do it.

Date: Wed Jun 09 1999 20:01
JP:Senior gold stocks are cheap. The senior gold shares are washed out and in my opinion represent value at these prices. Gold shares short positions are at record high's and will have to cover as these shares climb. Vane sentiment reading is only 16% bullish on gold, 84% bearish. Gold pessimism is so thick you can cut through it with a knife. Again, the shares may decline further, but they are dirt cheap.

Date: Wed Jun 09 1999 20:10
JP: Gold funds are being decimated. Heavy redemptions at gold funds is forcing wholesale liquidation of mining shares. I'm just wondering who is left to sell. The average person does not own any shares, professional traders on margin have already been forced to sell their shares, who else is left?

Date: Wed Jun 09 1999 20:17
JP: Looking at my charts. All these indices on a closing basis, Dow below 10330 SPX below 1290 and Transport below 3450 will confirm the IMPLOSION in the US economy.

Date: Thu Jun 10 1999 17:43
JP: The long bond closes at 6.06% yield in after hours trading. The beat goes on. Long term rates are rising and will continue to rise until we have a financial panic. I figure that 8% on the long bond will do it. The stock market is begining to protect itself by declining.

Date: Fri Jun 11 1999 14:47
JP:Folks---Please don't get too excited. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The main action is ahead of us.

Date: Fri Jun 11 1999 14:55
Rack: JP, do you believe that physical gold will tank with the market from here? I think the world may have just walked off a cliff.

Date: Fri Jun 11 1999 15:05
JP:Rack---No,I don't think that physical gold will sink with the general market. I think that gold will hold steady and take off slowly as the market sinks.

Date: Fri Jun 11 1999 16:01
JP The long bond yield is at 6.16% in after hours trading. Wall street is begining to bleed. You all, have a nice weekend.
canamami
To: The Stranger
Welcome Back!
canamami
To: Aragorn III - Thank you for replies 7352 and 7365
If your hypothesis is correct (that the BOE sale will break the paper market's distortion of the price of real gold), it is joyously ironic that the enemies of gold in the British Labour Party will have shot themselves in their collective feet by their antics.
The Stranger
Items
ITEM-
From this week's "Barrons":

"Just a slight amount of growth in Japan could have significant implications for
the global economy and markets. One is that more Japanese capital could be
needed at home. Another is that international investors may opt to shift capital
away from the U.S. to Japan. This dynamic would undermine the dollar and
boost U.S. borrowing costs.

Dennis Hynes of R.W. Pressprich & Co. points out that the big story in the
global economy has shifted firmly from deflation to reflation, a change that will
increase demand -- and competition -- for capital on a worldwide basis.
Investors will be skulking around for equity markets in countries where
growth is weak and shunning those in mature stages of economic expansion
and corporate structuring.

Asia is one of the first places investors may look and Japan's improving
prospects will make the region a more attractive destination for capital. Of
course, there may be efforts at the government level to make sure that
process is an orderly one. For example, as the yen strengthens because of
improving growth prospects, Japanese and U.S. authorities may not want the
dollar to go much beyond 113.50 yen. It ended last week at 117.85 yen
versus 122.13 a week earlier.

The reason, Hynes points out, is that exchange rates approaching that level
may prompt investors who have borrowed cheap funds in yen and reinvested
them in higher-yielding U.S. Treasuries -- and higher-returning stocks -- to
close out positions. This so-called "yen-carry trade" caused havoc last year
when the yen surged against the dollar, destabilizing Wall Street and bond
markets around the globe. Certainly, economic policy makers want to avoid a
massive, simultaneous unwinding of these positions."

Stranger's note: The world hasn't seen pent up demand like that which exists in Japan today. Citizens there have TONS of savings that will flood the stores just as soon as prices begin rising again!
By the way, did anybody notice that the explosive rally in the XAU last September coincided nearly precisely with the yen rally? Well, it just happened again this week!

ITEM-

Forgive me if this came up during my absence, but did anyone here mention the PROBABILITY that BoE will change its plans to some significant degree if gold doesn't recover in time? I suspect the rumblings about this yesterday contributed to the strength in gold as well as the strength in the Pound.

ITEM-

Tomcat- in your latest post, paragraph two, line one, I'll bet you mean "liquidity", not "illiquidity".

As suggested in the "Barrons" article above, the deflation/reflation debate is coming to a close. As recently as two or three months ago, there was NO serious attention given to inflation in the financial press. Now it is everywhere.

You do raise a question, however, Tomcat, about what might happen as the Fed reins in the very liquidity that got us here. Allow me to remind everyone of the following:
A.THESE THINGS TAKE TIME. Remember, dollar liquidity brought about strong American imports. Strong imports helped turn around struggling trading partners. They also expanded the American trade deficit, flooding the world with dollars. That flood of exported dollars will now drive the greenback DOWN against other currencies (despite the fact that we already have the highest interest rates in the developed world). The weak dollar will mean higher import prices are coming - in May alone import prices shot up .7% (this number did not show up in the highly suspect PPI, by the way).

In addition to the effects outlined in the "Barrons" article, stronger trading partners also make for improving U.S. exports. Rising exports at a time of full employment in the U.S. will create PRICING POWER! Boy, now that is something nobody was expecting. At the CEOs conference in Williamsburg, Virginia, just a few weeks ago, one corporate executive after another got up to declare that there was no inflation in sight. AHEM!

And so it goes, round and round. The point is: inflation does not turn on and off like a spigot. Soon, the Fed will take back the rate cuts of last fall. Do not be alarmed. Higher rates alone will do nothing to stop inflation now, just as they did nothing to stop it in the '70s.

ITEM-

Thanks To turbo, my formidable sparring partner. Perhaps someday we shall swill a brewski together. Thanks also to the noble canamami, who's knowledge of the world always amazes. Like me, he knows how difficult it is to leave this forum alone for awhile.

Sorry about the length.
canamami
(No Subject)
A Recent (June 7) Article on the EuroThe Stranger,

Thank you for your kind comments.

Everyone,

Please see below quite a good article on the Euro. I'm trying to track down a further June 2 article by the same author, concerning the Euro, which is also quite good:

Who's in charge of the euro?

Peter Cook

Monday, June 7, 1999


Cologne, Germany -- It was a frustrating end to a European summit. Having spent two days last week doing things that manifestly showed leadership, including presiding over a successful Kosovo peace mission, Europe's heads of government could not duck the issue of the euro.

Like the U.S. dollar in its weak years in the 1970s or Canada's dollar when it was mercilessly strong a decade ago, the euro's five months of faltering existence have turned it into a test of political leadership. Acclaimed as strong at birth, the currency has become so weak that many in the markets predict one euro will soon equal one U.S. dollar, compared with $1.17 (U.S.) in early January.

Needless to say, the depressed euro was not what Europe's leaders wanted to talk about in Cologne. Any other topic -- from acclaiming Javier Solana as Europe's new security chief to banning tainted Belgian pork -- seemed preferable. When finally cornered into making a statement, the 11 euro users (all except Britain, Sweden, Denmark and Greece) talked of their resolve to secure market confidence in the currency by pursuing consistent policies. Then, they decided that this was too daring -- perhaps it would be misinterpreted as their losing faith in the euro -- and withdrew the statement after it had been widely circulated. Incoming European Commission President Romano Prodi added to the confusion by saying that what was important was not a low euro but higher economic growth.

All told, it was not a performance calculated to impress financial markets where the euro is seen as a currency "of many voices."

Nominally, a powerful European Central Bank should speak for the euro. But its president, Wim Duisenberg, has wavered between accepting the currency's fall as a fact of life or, rather, of higher U.S. interest rates, and protesting that it has gone too far. Meanwhile, in the wings, the Bundesbank's Hans Tietmeyer has taken a tougher line -- something that was to be expected since he personally promised Germans that the euro would be as strong as the German mark.

On the political front, several leaders join Mr. Prodi in thinking that a weak euro helps exports and is good for economic growth. In Europe as in Canada, old arguments in favour of devaluation as a path to economic success die hard. However, more worrying than this particular hangover is the penchant Europe's politicians have for fixing and fudging fiscal policy. When, two weeks ago, finance ministers agreed to allow Italy to loosen its budget targets because of low growth, they did enormous psychological damage. One minute, the central bank was running things. The next, politics were in obvious command. Moreover, having varied the terms for Italy, financial markets are left asking which country will be next through the stable door? Could it be mighty Germany whose economy is in almost as bad a shape as Italy's?

The case can be made that the euro should be weak now and will be strong later. There has been a shift in relative growth prospects favouring the United States over Europe. Then, there is the lure of U.S. interest rates that are bound to rise sooner than European rates.

Hidden from view for now is the greater potential of the euro, in terms of its acceptance as a reserve currency, in terms of savings and investment growth and the expansion of European capital markets; also hidden for now is the inherently weak position of a U.S. economy in which private savings have disappeared while foreign borrowing soars. That will change. By next year, the euro-U.S. dollar relationship could be very different.

But that is not the point. Having bragged about the euro's challenge to the U.S. dollar, the politicians have a problem. They are not able to produce what they said and, inevitably, that is seen as a failure of leadership. Add to it the reluctance of governments in Germany, France and Italy, to free up job and product markets, take on privileged constituencies such as the public service and organized labour and alter their old statist habits, and you have a rerun of the same financial market attitude -- one of almost permanent disapproval -- that blighted the U.S. dollar in the 1970s. "Euro's frailty reflects weak economic leadership," said one leading German newspaper last week, quoting a banker-broker view of what ails the euro.

One can debate the chances of this changing. In Cologne, the Germans tabled yet another employment pact, a document full of fine words and promises of co-operation between "social partners" that happens, unfortunately, to coincide with a worsening outlook for jobs. Such pacts offer the pretense that European governments are doing something when the reverse is true. There is, however, more pressure being put on the politicians because the euro is seen as a political currency and their baby. On the euro, the one signal financial markets would respond to would be an economic package in Germany or France that cuts social benefit costs, makes labour markets more flexible and lowers taxes. For now, that is not on the agenda and the need for it was ignored in Cologne. But the fallout from a weak euro may be bringing it closer.

Peter Cook can be reached by E-mail at pcook@globeandmail.ca


Peter Asher
Today's Market Report

Why are we not surprised?? � by this morning's Item on Excite news

FRANKFURT, Germany (Reuters) - Finance ministers from the
Group of Seven major powers agreed Saturday to a more generous
package of debt relief for the world's poorest countries.

"It will be faster, it will be deeper and it will involve more
countries," U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin said of the plan.
He was speaking to reporters after a one-day meeting to prepare for
next weekend's summit of the G7 plus Russia in Cologne.

G7 officials said the number of countries eligible for debt relief
under the new scheme would rise to 36 from 29 and that as much as
$80 billion in loans could be written down substantially or forgiven
altogether.

Ministers said they had agreed the debt relief -- equivalent to about
$27 billion if it were to be made as a one-off payment -- would be
financed in part by selling some of the International Monetary Fund's
103 million ounce stockpile of gold reserves.

As this morning sees another rendition of the oversung refrain proclaiming the selling IMF gold, Germany has thrown its deep (pockets) voice into the chorus, attempting to create harmony in this tune as "Finance Minister Hans Eichel confirmed Saturday that Bonn had
dropped its long-standing opposition to selling part of the IMF's gold reserves."

Nevertheless this may be the week we look back on and say "That's where it all began". Bond yield climbed definitively, Wall street continued its development of a possible long term top, Oil regained most of its recent high ground and the Euro appears to have declared a genuine bottom. All of this becomes a backdrop that highlights the recent actions of gold. Striking a series of twenty year lows, gold nevertheless finished strongly on what has in the last year or so, become finicky friday.

Behind all technical action is either a set of fundamentals, OR a rigged market. Rather than try and predict the forthcoming action on technical analysis, it may be more accurate to imagine what actions would follow if what we suspect is true. While it is certainly plausible that the BOE is a volunteer patsy providing the gold needed to bail out privileged shorts, the quantity doesn't seem sufficient to fit that scenario. It could also be that the announcement was carefully planned to drive down the price of gold through negative momentum. Now massive amounts of short covering could overwhelm the negative sentiment to the extent that its completion sees the price of gold back up to where the Bank realizes more than the value it had at announcement time.

This high discount twenty year low is even more incomprehensible when adjusted for inflation. No amount of manipulation can override the fire sale aspect of these prices for very long. The action of this weeks trading has the technical earmarks of a long term bottom. However, gold has looked this way before at higher levels and the forces dedicated to trashing the yellow metal have not given up.
The beauty of the IMF gold sale proposal as a propaganda tool, is that The U.S. congress can scotch it by virtue of having a large enough percentage of the gold vote, to prevent the tally needed to authorize the sale. Then the proponents don't have to renege and get caught out as manipulators. Today's attempt to dampen the budding snippets of information surfacing in golds favor, may not have much effect. The last time the song was sung, the market panned it.

Once the tide turns and the current 'Golden opportunity' gets pounced on, derogatory comments will be as a butterfly's wings upon the wind. While the great Bull Market may end with a whimper, the birth of the new universe of gold will begin with a big bang.

Peter Asher
*****Today's Market Report"
Tile correction
canamami
Excellent Article (June 2) on Euro
For now on, I'll have to keep the subject and the link lines straight, lest I link to nowhere. Here is the Globe and Mail article:

Why smart money is on the euro
Wednesday, June 2, 1999

THE GLOBE AND MAIL - Canada's National Newspaper

Peter Cook

Brussels -- When Europe's top leaders open their biannual summit in Cologne tomorrow, they will be worrying most about two things that, back when they last met in Vienna in December, no one foresaw. First, a war inside Europe that claims fresh victims every day. Second, a European currency, the euro, that started life in January at $1.17 (U.S.) and is now, widely and humiliatingly, predicted to crash through the one-dollar barrier.

Of the two, Kosovo obviously matters far more. Since the 15 European Union leaders who are present encompass hawks, doves and neutrals, they will content themselves with making pro forma statements on the war, to the effect that NATO's terms must be accepted in Belgrade. But they will discuss a European strike force that could act independently of NATO and the Americans in future crises; the naming of a "high representative" to speak for Europe on foreign policy; and proposals to bring the Balkans into Europe's democratic and economic mainstream when the war finishes.

All are new, urgent items on the agenda. But, as a response to what is happening, all look regrettably long term.

The euro, however, is short-term. When it was launched, Brussels invented a cartoon character called Captain Euro to sell it but not save it, since there was no idea then that it might need saving. Instead of a caped crusader, the euro's "saviours" in the months since have been "suits" from the central bank or from national finance ministries, and a dismal, unconvincing job they have done.

There have been bitter policy disputes, budget deficit fudges, and declarations that the euro's value does not matter and, then, three days later, that it does. All in all, Europe's politicians and bankers have done for the euro what they once accused Jimmy Carter of doing to the U.S. dollar.

In the next few days, more collateral damage may be done. The euro could sink lower still. If it does, then it will be a reflection not only of the policy differences that inevitably dog a currency in which 11 governments have a share but also of poorer prospects in Europe. Late last year, no one was saying that the two economies that would suffer most as a result of troubles in Asia, Russia and Brazil would be Germany and Italy; instead, the United States was seen as the premier victim. That is not how it has turned out. The U.S. economy will grow by 3.6 per cent this year; some peripheral euro-using economies will do better, such as Ireland with a growth rate of 9 per cent; but German growth is put at 1.5 per cent and Italian at just 1 per cent, largely because both depend so much on exports. Because of their weakness, the euro cannot compete against the U.S. dollar, at least for now.

The question that truly smart investors should be asking, however, is whether this is cyclical and reversible -- and the answer, almost certainly, is yes.

Economists at Deutsche Bank say the euro zone economies will rebound in the second half of the year. They point to record levels of consumer confidence and say retail spending gains are working their way through the economy, lifting industrial output and construction activity. Bond markets will anticipate the turnaround, meaning interest rate differentials will narrow against U.S. rates. Economists at Goldman Sachs also talk about the euro zone showing "the green shoots of recovery." Monetary conditions, they say, are easier than at any time since 1985.

A second point to make is that, while its weakness may embarrass politicians who predicted instant success, the euro has not fallen far. It has simply given up the gains that the German mark made ahead of January's launch date. In relation to the U.S. dollar, the euro sits where the mark sat one year ago. Moreover, a casual glance at the size of the U.S. current account deficit or at the $200-billion in central bank reserves that could start moving into the euro suggests that, given time, it will emerge as the stronger currency.

Finally, some note has to be taken of a booming corporate bond market in euros. At first, this was thought to be a gimmick. Big corporations considered it glamorous to be the first to borrow in euros and instantly catapulted the euro ahead of the U.S. dollar in January. But since then the euro market has found itself with a clear raison d'�tre as companies use it to finance mergers and investments, and even to create a low-grade junk bond market (something Europe has lacked). Olivetti of Italy has just begun marketing eight billion euros in floating-rate bonds, money that it needs to buy Telecom Italia in the largest industrial takeover ever seen in Europe.

Predictions about the euro should be whispered ever so quietly so that the politicians cannot eavesdrop. One such prediction is that European corporations are about the embark on a euro-financed merger wave every bit as big as the U.S. wave of the early 1980s.

Peter Cook can be reached by E-mail at pcook@globeandmail.ca


Golden Truth
Peter Asher is in the Money(GOLD)!!
Peter your last post was simply BRILLANT,what you wrote rings so true. I just wish my mind was as coherent as yours. I believe that is exactly what will transpire out of this propaganda, A "NO SALE" again!
Peter Asher
canamami
Regarding the Euro, In the subject of Chemistry, one first studies Qualitative Analysis to learn the components of compounds and how they react with others. After that, one studies Quantitative Analysis to learn to measure exactly how much molecular weight ant count gets shifted in a chemical reaction.

The Quality of the Euro is its representation of the economic system of a diversified group of national components, the compound being far stronger than the elements it's made up of. However, quantitatively, the total economic machine behind the Euro is not as powerful as the dollar. Combining cooper and zinc will give you brass, but carbon and iron create steel. The former is attractive and corrosion resistant, but will not suffice to produce an "I" beam to support a bridge or building.

Credit excesses in our economy can be seen as the equivalent of overloading or to great a span being utilized, but when properly engineered, carbon steel is still the strongest. I continue to believe that the ability to service debt is senior to the degree of indebtedness, and that it holds true for nations as well as for corporations and individuals.
Peter Asher
Golden Truth
You do me great honor. I am left momentarily incoherent.
canamami
Don Coxe Conference Call
http://www.jonesheward.com/commentary.cfmDon Coxe is one of the gurus I follow. He argues in this conference call that Japan is rebounding, that Europe will hold its own vis-a-vis the U.S. for the rest of the year, and points to the high risk posed by the NASDAQ valuations. All point to pressure on the $US. At minutes approximately 27:30 to 32:00 of the call, he specifically addresses gold and the XAU, arguing that the market is "clearly rigged", and that gold is more undervalued than any other asset class.
Peter Asher
canamami
I called up that URL and gave them my reguested E-mail address, but all I'm getting is a soun and music site. What am I missing ??
Peter Asher
Dow 7800
http://news.excite.com/news/r/990612/12/business-stocks-leadallHere's a calm cool and collected rundown on a highly plausible event path for the next few months.--- That is if the Bull Market lottery ticket holders don't succumb to a stampede of absolute panic
canamami
Reply to Peter Asher
Peter,

Thank you for your replies to my posts.

First, click on the linkage. Then click on "Don's Latest Call" (I believe it says) on the page to which the linkage takes you. Then, you hear the conference call. You may have to download Real Player to hear it. I don't know if the other multi-media formats can "play" the call (I already had RealPlayer when I first came across the site, so I use Real Player).

Hope this helps.
Usul
Hedge fund stress
One should watch for market "surprises" that strike at
the fundamental weakness of the hedge funds that use
arbitrage and derivatives, in other words, if the market
moves in a direction opposite to that which is expected,
the hedge funds stand to lose a King's ransom. We have
seen how this works with LTCM, which made bets on European
currencies and the Japanese interest rate in 1998.
This past week, we have seen one such surprise in the report
that Japan had a surprise leap in GDP during the first 3
months of the year. This led to market gyrations in the
yen/dollar rate and rises in the Nikkei. Perhaps some of
the yen/dollar gyrations pointed to hedge fund activity?
The euro exchange rate is another important factor. After
an initial rise, the euro has been heading relentlessly
downwards toward dollar parity. It would not be strange to
expect some hedge funds to place a bet on this continuing...
but recently, the trend has been reversed. European
politicians have commented that it is not the weak euro,
but the strong dollar, that is setting the euro exchange
rate. If the dollar itself should weaken, perhaps as a
linkage with the bond market, and/or through repatriation of
Japanese yen carry trade investments which must sell dollars
to pay the Japanese in yen, then the euro will about-turn
and this could well stress certain hedge funds. We will
not know which ones due to their secretive nature, and they
will deny problems until the last. Only when their reserves
are exhausted and they are forced to declare their problems,
or they turn to the Fed with begging bowls, as did LTCM, will their predicament become clear for all to see. This
will require careful watching. And while false rumours may
point to some, such as Tiger, as the stricken, the real victim may be crumpling in another corner.
Richard, Oregon
Steve H - Letter To Friend
SteveH (6/11/99; 3:07:35MDT - Msg ID:7463)I wrote this to a friend ...XXXX - Thanks for this post. I found it easy to read and follow and will save it for my own 'Common Sense' list I'm building regarding "Why gold?". There is much to be gleaned from your words. Thank you for sharing.
CoBra(too)
G7 agree on easing debt on HIPC's
G7 finance ministers agree (Saturday)on a plan to ease the debt of the world's poorest countries, including the sale of 300 tons of IMF gold.
What a farce!
After the BoE gold sale farce, this won't impress anybody and does smack as total surrender to the market forces, which are gaining momentum by the day. The hey-days of the gold carry trade(rs) seem counted.
In view of the overall debt of about 200 billion US$, about 41 HIPC's owe, mostly due to the stringent "relief" loans of IMF, which has brought them to this state of disaster, as well as the collusion to subdue the price of gold, which has cost the majority of same poor countries (being mostly resource and gold producers)much more in export value per month, than the monthly interest "relief".
The 2,6 billion dollar relief (-only interest on the revenue will be available for debt relief!)in these terms it is a farce and the question is permitted - to who's benefit is this farce played out.
It does seem the system (of free floating and re-printable paper IOU's in a world of free global trade)is desperately trying to prolong this "brave experiment" of global (paper-)dollarization and keeping up the pretense of eternal growth, without any kind of inflation. (pls read GE poster KeyserSoze in his brilliant comment).
The markets begin to tell us otherwise and even European economists are starting to voice their concerns towards the US being the worlds largest debtor and becoming totally dependent on capital imports. An Austrian paper "Die Presse" carried a headline in the economic section today, by an economist Streissler: "The next major crisis will start in the US" - meaning the equivalent of SEAsia, LAmerica ...

I'll have to vote for a new EU Parliament tomorrow - as usual I will vote for the lesser evil - what a shame that global politics got us back to a stage long thought overcome.

BTW, MK, SteveH and Gandalf - Thank you all for your kind encouragement lately. Believe me, I've been so frustated with the open manipulation of markets (see Hans Schicht today)the feeling of destitution took over, though I realize ther's a group of knights assembled here, relentlessly fighting for the truth an against the evil machinations of the colluders. Thank you again for reeinforcing my beliefs! Have a great weekend

turbohawg
cash withdrawals increasing ??
One wonders how much, if any, of this climate of rising interest rates is due to liquidation of Treasuries in order to raise cash ... and just as importantly, if that cash is being withdrawn from the system.

If cash is being withdrawn from the system, what evidence would we have to tip us off ?? Wouldn't M1, M2, and M3 all be falling ??

Peter, in that article you referenced over at Yahoo was this point: >And, over the last four weeks, the money supply growth has actually decreased for the first time in three years.<

Meandering over to the Fed's website that lists the latest money supply figures ...

>http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/releases/H6/Current/<

... one finds that non-seasonally adjusted (ie. non-manipulated ... actually, that's probably not true either) M1, M2, and M3 are all down as of the end of May ... can't help but wonder with interest rates shooting up if the downward trend of all three money measures is accelerating ... the end of June numbers ought to be quite interesting. This is happening in spite of a recent barrage of Fed coupon passes.

There may be plenty of plausible explanations for the three money supply numbers to suddenly be dropping and interest rates rising other than people pulling cash out of their banks. But that's what comes to mind, and if this is actually occurring with increasing momentum, inspired by fears of Y2K or a stock mkt collapse or any other reason as discussed here for some time, look out. Large cash withdrawals will undermine the 'stability' of the fractional reserve banking system, increase illiquidity in all of the markets, and be highly deflationary. Plus, we may have the goons from the fed govt stepping in before we know it to tell us how much of what is ours we can have ... as noted the other day by my recent bank experience and those of MK's customers the banks already seem to be getting stickier fingers.
SteveH
Xavier and GATA
Xavier,

Saw your work. Something appears to missing from the chart. I think two charts actually exist: one with physical as per Rhody's comment to you at Kitco, the other with a gold certificate. I think the gold certificate one is more confusing as it seems then that it is a backing issue whereby a BB has other physical that lets them deliver the smaller redemptions but they leverage off of the potential backing of CB gold. This may be the case as to what is happening with the BOE of sale. Paper was sold to BB by BOE, BB had major physical redemption but fell short the gold, now BOE needs to make good. That would change your diagram too. Also both diagrams would need a collateral back to CB from BB and maybe even from BB to dealer (not retail). If gold or paper borrowed is sold short at LBMA or Comex then only needs gold when a contract takes delivery; otherwise paper would suffice.

This is from GATA:

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Here's an especially important "Midas" commentary by
GATA Chairman Bill Murphy at www.lemetropolecafe.com.
Please post this wherever it may be of interest.

CHRIS POWELL
Secretary, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

* * *

A Financial Scandal Unfolding Slowly Before Your Eyes


By Bill Murphy

June 11, 1999. Spot Gold $260.40, up $2.10
Spot Silver $5.10, up 2 cents


This is not meant to be the comprehensive analysis of
all that we intend to put together to illustrate to you
that we believe a financial scandal of epic proportions
will be revealed in time. This is summertime and I had
no intention of writing this Midas, but in light of the
events of yesterday, I thought I should recap some of
our previous commentary and alert you as to what talk
is making the rounds and what it means to you as a
precious metals investor.

It is my opinion that what is going on in the U.S.
markets RIGHT NOW is the crux of the gold problem. The
current turbulence is the raison d'etre behind the
manipulation of the gold price. In the Midas on
Thursday I alluded to the fact that it was becoming
clearer by the week, day, hour. Yesterday it really was
by the hour.

Yesterday began with a benign producer price index
accompanied by retail sales that were a bit stronger
than the consensus predictions. In addition the
previous month's retail sales were revised upward. The
bond market fiddled up and down on the news and then
swan-dived, finishing the day down a point. Yields
soared to 6.15 percent. An unthinkable number at the
beginning of the year (except to the Cafe's Charles
Peabody and one other mainstream analyst.)

Even as the bonds swooned, the CNBC commentators
remarked all day how boring everything was and the bond
action was just ho-hum, and the general commentary was
it was only a matter of time before they would recover
and thus the stock market would come roaring back.

Then rumors started to swirl that the Fed was having,
or would over the weekend, an emergency meeting
concerning a hedge fund bailout. Stocks then headed
straight south until the end of the day when "Mr. White
Hand" showed up for the umpteenth time to lift the Dow
50 points late in the going.

Well, as all of you know we have been alerting you to
hedge fund problems all week. No sense going into more
of that. But what is of significance is that GATA has
told the press and Congress that financial problems of
the Long-Term Capital Management type are lurking
beneath the surface that were never resolved after that
crisis. We told them that it was a time bomb and that
we felt it was only a matter of time before they could
be contained no longer. We told them that the gold
price was being manipulated lower in order to: 1)
protect certain financial entities that were short
"leased gold" as part of a "gold-carry trade"; 2) to
allow various financial institutions to continue to use
gold as a cheap source of financing; 3) to prevent
"force majeur," as the borrowed gold loans have risen
to such a degree that they could not be covered without
a major debacle if the gold price were to rise sharply;
4) to discredit gold so much that its sinking price
would draw attention away from the serious financial
problems gurgling out of sight from public view and
understanding.

The Fed denied to comment the press on the rumors
yesterday, which is standard for them, but that they
had no comment was all over the wire services. We have
no further comment either on the hedge fund bailout
story except to alert you once again that something is
very wrong out there. You might recall that we just
told you about the big banking meeting in Philadelphia
in which all the participants were urged to reveal none
of the substance of the meeting. Fed Chairman Alan
Greenspan was rushed from that meeting, surrounded by a
phalanx of Secret Service agents. A clue that the
financial problems are serious is that the bond yields
have been soaring while the movement in the
Philadelphia Utility Index seems to be oblivious to the
bond market retreat -- an obvious divergence. The
recent bond debacle and that divergence are telling you
that the bonds are not tanking just on inflation fears;
there are liquidity problems out there.

On Thursday we alerted Cafe members that where there is
so much smoke there is probably fire. Charles Peabody
told you five months ago that there would be unintended
consequences from the Greenspan-led LTCM bailout and
series of interest rate cuts. He told you that the
unparalleled shift in the yield curve (short rates
staying down and long rates moving up) would not be
good for the banks. The bank stocks have already been
hit sharply and, if Charles is right, are just starting
their descent. He told you many months ago that the
financial problems were shifted, not fixed, by the LTCM
bailout, and that these problems would most likely
surface in late spring.

Midas has told you that the manipulation of the gold
market started in earnest right after the LTCM bailout.
That is clear. That is when the bullion dealers started
roaming South Africa and other mining locations,
offering unheard-of credit terms and begging the
producers to sell forward. That is when they got
together to stop gold rallies at $306 or so, $296, and
then $290. Out of bullets at $290, our officialdom
called on the English Poodle (Treasury) to make its
pathetically obvious announcement about its dumping 415
tonnes of gold. Clearly this was done to demoralize the
entire industry, and it worked as gold dropped $30.

Throughout this period we have identified Goldman Sachs
as goon squad leader, hit man against the gold market.
And to capsulize: we know that former New York Fed
Governor, Ed Corrigan is a top exec at Goldman; their
international economist Gavyn Davies is tied to British
Prime Minister Tony Blair; sources say Goldman Sachs
has a 1,000-tonne gold short position on their books;
and one could say that Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin
has some pretty close ties to Goldman as he used to be
their CEO. Then of course you have Jon Corzine, former
Goldman Sachs top dog, all buddy-buddy with John
Meriwether, LTCM chairman.

Do we really want to pick on Goldman Sachs? No! It is
just that everywhere we turn, there they are. Needless
to say, they have been noticeably on the sell side
almost every day since the BOE announcement. Yesterday
(with Fed emergency meeting rumors all over The
Street), they were finally buyers.

The point of going all over this again is that it would
appear we are here, or at least going into the period
when all that we have been talking about in the Cafe is
going to begin to surface. The bond yields surging to
6.15 percent is most likely the tipoff that what we
have been saying is correct. Liquidity is likely to
become a big issue. For example:

We have been alerted by Charles Peabody that about five
weeks ago many of the hedge funds put on the yen carry
trade. They borrowed money in yen and then bought
Treasury bonds thinking yields were going back down. A
successful trade such as that could help them with any
redemption or cash-flow problems. It backfired and they
have been exiting this trade the past few days. That we
know for sure.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Britain's finance
minister, Gordon Brown, was all over the tape yesterday
talking about the righteousness of his gold decision
and saying he was confident of an agreement about IMF
gold sales by autumn. What timing! Just as bond yields
are surging and there was to be news about hedge fund
problems. This is more than redundant and sad; it shows
desperation. Gold has dropped $30 and he has to come
out with this headline, "U.K.'s Brown Sees Wide Support
for IMF Gold Sales."

Then there is this little tidbit which may have
everything to do with everything, or just be a
coincidental anecdote. We received information
yesterday morning that the president of one the largest
hedged gold producers was in New York telling hedge
funds that were short that "the game had changed." I
will leave that one alone for the time being. But I
submit to you that the jig is up for the colluders. We
are on to them and it is most likely that events will
begin to unfold in time that will expose their
nefarious activities and their role in this big
scandal.

The scandal is that there has been a great manipulation
of the gold market that involves certain segments of
the present U.S. administration, foreign
administrations, and various bullion dealers. The
resulting suppression of the gold market has been put
into place to mask failed fiscal policies and to buy
time for greedy financial institutions that want riches
but are unwilling to face the consequences when their
trading strategies go bad. It is about hubris that
would make Zeus blush.

All the while an entire industry is being devastated,
as many gold-producing countries that are poor or need
the gold revenue are being squeezed. An entire segment
of investing shareholders is suffering terribly all
because they were not informed the game was going to be
rigged against them.

Unbelievably, while all this goes on, the financial
press is completely asleep, or, worse, just plain cowed
by the money powers. They say that bonds are tanking
because of inflation expectations and that gold is
tanking because of a LACK of inflation expectations. I
could go on and on here, but you know my spiel.

Instead, to enhance to what I am referring to, I
present an article this past Monday by John Crudele of
the New York Post, "Feds pass Fraud Buck to
Brokerages." While it is on a different subject, it
captures the essence of what one faces when one
presents information that takes on big money. The
mainstream press (wire services included) loves to talk
about the First Amendment and dissent, but present them
with a solid story that goes against big money or the
power structure in Washington and they retreat into a
shell. My naivete is gone forever. My disappointment in
the U.S. press grows and grows. No wonder financial
bombshells erupt out of nowhere.

John Crudele's N.Y. Post story:

"One defendant in a recent securities fraud case said he
tried to cooperate with prosecutors by giving up
damning information about two big Wall Street
investment firms. The U.S. Attorney's office in New
York said no thanks.

"A second defendant said he too was willing to give
damaging leads to prosecutors about one of those same
firms. He was also told that the feds weren't
interested.

"Then there is the case of a third man who recently
came to my attention -- a guy named Edward Manfredonia
who's been carrying on a five-year correspondence with
federal prosecutors in hopes he'll get someone
interested in corruption on Wall Street.

"`In the beginning, they were very interested. They
wired me. They were going to tap my phone. And then it
died,' said Manfredonia, who was a trader on the floor
of the American Stock Exchange before he turned into a
whistle-blowing, letter-writing reformer. Some members
of the Amex "bragged that it wouldn't be investigated.
It went too high" -- involved important people -- said
Manfredonia, whose accusations have been partly aired
already in a series of Business Week stories.

"The three men -- all of whom I spoke with last week --
have a simple question: Is someone protecting the Wall
Street big shots while the government goes after the
minnows? That isn't to say going after any wrongdoing
is bad. Anyone who ignores securities laws -- whether
they're home-based Internet traders or big firms --
should be punished. But most of the enforcement lately
has been against small fries, no big firms.

"For instance, a former partner of Spear, Leeds &
Kellogg last week was fined $100,000 for illegal
trading on the Amex. Pasquale Schettino, that former
partner, was barred for life by the National
Association of Securities Dealers for trading without
his company's or the exchange's approval. That case
came two months after a Spears trader was suspended and
another was barred from the industry over violations at
the New York Stock Exchange.

"Spear Leeds wasn't cited for any wrongdoing in either
case.

"The NASD, the Amex and the NYSE wouldn't comment about
it The NASD also declined to comment to the Journal on
why Spear Leeds wasn't named or to confirm or deny any
ongoing investigation.

"The U.S. attorney's office in Manhattan says it
evaluates cases on an individual basis and that no deal
exists for the securities industry to handle its own
problems. There are explanations for refusing to accept
information. The U.S. attorney's office in lower
Manhattan, famous for going after every Wall Street
violator back in the '80s when now-Mayor Rudy Giuliani
was in charge, may simply think the information being
offered wouldn't be useful. Or wrong.

"Or, in not accepting information about big, powerful
securities firms, the regulator/prosecutor
establishment may understand that there are other ways
for these matters to be handled -- like the Schettino
matter was, through disciplinary channels. But if this
trader breached securities laws, why wasn't he
prosecuted the way someone would be if he was tipped
off about an upcoming takeover?

"While authorities say Schettino didn't make any money,
the whistle-blowers -- one of whom was intimately
involved in that case -- say there are plenty of
examples of illegal profiteering by securities
professionals. One of the snitches says he volunteered
to give authorities information on illegal activities
of two major firms. `They don't care,' he said. 

"Says another source: `We spoke about (one company).
They didn't say anything. They didn't care. We didn't
get an answer back.'

"The most prominent case in recent months has been the
one against people connected with Oakford Corp., which
wasn't a member of the NYSE but which did trade through
brokers on the floor of that exchange. In that case,
charges were filed through criminal channels and not
administrative ones. And people are going to jail.

"Plus, published reports say that another 64 brokers on
the NYSE floor are under investigation, some as
offshoots of the Oakford probe. But the betting is
they will be handled through securities industry
channels. And if wrongdoing is found, my three sources
above believe something akin to the Schettino
punishment will be invoked.

"In fact, the ambiguity of the rules may convince
criminal authorities that it would be best to let the
brokerage industry regulate itself. That would be
especially handy for everyone if large and powerful
Wall Street firms suddenly find themselves in the
target area."

Yes, the stench grows. Which brings me back to when we
were berated publicly by Long-Term Capital Management's
P.R. firm in a Dow Jones newswire story about GATA that
was vanilla-ized by editors to such a degree that it
was of interest to no one. In that story, LTCM decried
the claim that they "traded" gold. (We never said they
did; we said they borrowed gold.) Their senior counsel
called our attorney making similar denials and said he
would send a letter making his denials official.
(Remember?)

Well, we have waited long enough. The letter from the
LTCM lawyer NEVER came. And yesterday, in a potential
breakthrough, a source of ours confirmed to us that he
knows a former trader at LTCM who confirmed to him that
the firm was up to its eyeballs in the gold-carry
trade. We will protect our source, and the trader, just
as any other journalist would. A bit like "Deep Throat"
was protected.

It is now time to go out and enjoy the weekend, but
from a gold family standpoint, this is all good news. A
big, big move in the gold market is not far off. That
is what the bonds, silver, oil market (headed toward
$19 per barrel and more again), and XAU are telling us.
When this financial scandal is exposed, the world will
finally realize why gold has performed so badly. They
will learn that it was not gold that performed so
badly; it was the manipulators that have given us such
a lousy performance. And they will get the hook for
such scandalous behavior.

Before they do, the price of gold will soar as they try
and cover their shorts. There will be a breaking of the
ranks, like rats leaving a sinking ship. It happened
during the financial crisis of late last summer. There
will be no honor in this den of thieves either. It will
start as some will run for the hills as they learn the
jig is up; that will be followed by panic gold buying.

Yes, our day is coming, and as I said in my speech to
the Northeast Mining Investment Conference, we are
going to be the ones with the happy grins on our faces.

-END-
turbohawg
catching up
Peter, I share your view that servicing all of the debt in the economy will be it's Achilles heel ... referencing my last post, anything that interrupts the flow of digits between financial institutions will prove highly disruptive to the money supply and, hence, the economy ... large cash withdrawals would do it ... there simply isn't anywhere near enough cash in existence to service all of the debt without that flow of digits, that flow of credit.

Tomcat, that was an interesting re-post of a deflation scenario ... more from a micro standpoint. As Stranger alluded to, he and I and a few others wrestled over the inflation/deflation issue on more than one occasion here, but more from a macro standpoint. I'm sure those that have been here since the start got tired of it.

As seen through the eyes of a deflationist, the economy is chugging along on top of a financial bubble. It's when that bubble pops that deflation will take off ... that's when a rolling credit collapse will set in. The Fed is starkly afraid of this happening, as evidenced by last fall's Greenspanic. The whole New Era argument rests implicitly on the belief that credit can be expanded forever.

Stranger, I'll have to take you up on the brewski(es) offer one day ... my buy.



SteveH
How do we know this isn't what is going on?
Date: Sat Jun 12 1999 18:00
Dabchick (NewPhys.......Opinion as to why gold is going down?) ID#258195:
Copyright � 1999 Dabchick/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
You posed that question in your 11:20 today. In my opinion, certain governments would like to see a lot of their gold holdings dispersed to the general public. Pursuading the general public to buy gold, and keep buying it on an on-going basis, would require a steadily rising price into which their Central Banks could sell with confidence. Obviously, the lower the starting price for this process, the more successful such sales are likely to be. And if people see the price rising steadily, that will bring in progressively more and more individual buyers.

The steadily falling price of bullion from $400 in the mid-90's to $260 now ( and on to $150 if those Bullion Dealers that Sam-a met in London a couple of weeks ago are correct ) could be setting up the necessary pre-conditions for such a selling programme. Of course, once it started rolling, and everyone felt a need to own a little, there might be no top limit to where the price could go.

If the BoE sale gets the ball rolling next month, they might not seem to be as stupid as some here seem to think. And does anyone know why the UK Govt has decided to reduce to zero the Tax ( currently 17.5% ) on retail gold purchases with effect from next January 1st?

Regards...........Dabchick

-end-




New topic:

Fact? BOE and IMF gold sales are attempts to free up gold to pay back outstanding gold loans?

Xavier -- saw your new chart. Still say we have two charts. Also, check out FOA's post on European gold leasing. He specifically states that EU leasing is different than IMF leasing. Your chart seems to be IMF leasing. FOA seems to indicate that European gold leasing was a way to spread ownership of gold. Seems IMF gold leasing was a cash cow for equity investments? Good work.

Cleary, multiple forces at work. Two factions at least: Euro/BIS; US$/IMF; One-world electronic currency not gold backed?

FOA, I take it ANOTHERS comments from the other night was a signal to not post so often. You are always welcome, don't be a stranger. Speaking of which, did I miss ANOTHER's next post?
SteveH
Patterns emerge...
FOA says...

"Also, as gold begins to rise against the dollar, the local gold reserves are seen as assets of increasing value, backing the local currency. Under these conditions, with a stable currency, citizens will purchase more gold as it is seen as a positive asset. Not unlike a rising stock, everyone wants an increasing investment...."

Dabchich says...

"...In my opinion, certain governments would like to see a lot of their gold holdings dispersed to the general public. Pursuading the general public to buy gold, and keep buying it on an on-going basis, would require a steadily rising price into which their Central Banks could sell with confidence. Obviously, the lower the starting price for this process, the more successful such sales are likely to be. And if people see the price rising steadily, that will bring in progressively more and more individual buyers...."

The cards begin to stack....


SteveH
Xavier
This is the FOA post that tells me we have two flow charts, gold certificate and physical gold:

from FOA:

"...The process: An oil country (or others) goes to London and purchases one
tonn of gold from a Bullion Bank. The BB borrowed this gold from the CB
(leased). The one tonn gold certificate is transferred to the new owner.
The gold stays in the CB vault and the owner goes home. The CB leased
this gold to the BB and expects it to be returned plus interest. The BB
financed the Actual Purchase of this gold mortgaging assets of the
buyer. The BB, who created the loan, then uses the cash arranged in this
venture to contract with a mining company (or anyone wanting a
gold/cross financing deal) to purchase production gold, using this cash
to pay for it. In the eyes of the mining company, the BB just sold gold
on the open market, for cash, and will purchase future production at the
contracted price. The mine does not know where the gold came from, only
that it was sold and a fixed cash price is waiting. Of course, most of
this made more sense when gold was higher. There were thousands of these
deals, structured in every possible fashion. Look to the volume on LBMA
and you see where the future reserve currency is traded today!"
SteveH
Xavier
Here is a further FOA statement that shows there is definetly two types of leases. What is more, it would seem that you need to factor the Euro as a payback method in your chart for the gold certificate diagram, as an option to gold. In either case, this does a lot to give credence to the Euro as a reserve currency. What really strikes me here is that these few paragraphs seem to spell out exactly what is unfolding before our very eyes (and away from our eyes too):

FOA again:

"Now when we look at this picture, who is at risk here? The Euro CB Group
still holds the physical gold and will buy it back from the new owners,
if asked, using printed Euros. The new gold owner has just replaced his
dollar reserves with either bargain priced gold, or Euros at an exchange
rate never to be seen again! Some of this was done to buy the pricing of
oil in Euros. The BB owe the CBs 14,000 tons of gold that they must
collect inthe future from producers or currency speculators. And they
must collect it by paying what will be a, then, ridiculous price of
$300/$400US, while the world market price will be, well, a little
higher...."
Cavan Man
To SteveH
I do not understand what you are saying sir. Are you inplying that the dollar for example would become (again) gold backed by such a strategy? I guess I am missing it completely. You seem to be making at least a couple of completely different points at the same time.
Peter Asher
Turbohawg
I just came back in from turning rocky top soil into seedable earth, so bear with me if my huffing and puffing spills over into the content. --- Last first, your #7521. By servicing debt, I mean the productive capability to do that. All those dollars out there are a call on the productive capability of the US of A. Dollar debt is the right to future production which must be delivered over and above the flows necessary to balance the present time exchange. If our massive greed and luxury driven economic machine keeps roaring along at full bore, it will have the quantity of production to service debt while still maintaining a standard of living (full employment, able, satisfied workers) that keeps things well lubricated and humming along.

As to cash and the money supply. Isn't cash in circulation part of the figures. (M-1 = demand deposits and cash in circulation, right?) People either have their actual (Fiat) money) in the bank, or in their possession. If they deposit it, it goes in the vault and they have a receipt (pass book, checking deposit etc.) with which to take it out again. When they do, the bank shows less on its ledger. That by the way is the big misunderstood aspect of the Y2K, two billion print out. It will only convert deposits to FRN's, not increase the money supply.

Finally, about Treasuries, wouldn't 'liquidation (sales) just transfer cash from the buyer to the seller? It seems that you would need to have actual redemption by the government to reduce the money supply.

I hope I'm being clear enough here with an instant post.

Cavan Man
SteveH
Since GOLD is real money, why would CBs want to see the possession of it transferred via sales to their constituents? I don't get it please.
Beowulf
Anyone see this happening?
Could it be that the central banks are setting up the world currency systems for a collapse, at which point people will be running to banks to withdrawl what isn't there. In order to make people happy they credit the peoples accounts with digital dollars and create a digital system, what they've wanted all along. To me this seems like something that could happen, what with the overwhelming use of credit cards and debit cards most people will be content with that. Anyone else believe this could happen? Comments please.
SteveH
Cavan Man
It is confusing. I am pointing out patterns between Dabchick and FOA; also helping Xavier develop a gold-leasing flow chart; and stating that there are at least two, perhaps three, factions at work which is what muddies the water. Therein lies the confusion: the two, maybe more factions at work here. Each with their own agendas -- Euro/Bis is gold and Euro flavored; US$/IMF is dollar-based; some third faction keeps popping up too that seems to favor digital currency (is it a subset or one and same with US$/IMF? Don't know).

Regarding Dabchick and FOA, I see a parallel finding that both have arrived at seemingly in separate discourse, to wit: gold ownership spreads to common folk through gold or the Euro. I believe that is the Euro/Bis faction.

The negative press against gold, the IMF gold and BOE Gold sales, that is the US$/IMF camp.

Then you have the Martin Armstrong digital world currency camp that occasionally surfaces. Whether that is aligned with one or both or none of the above is yet to be determined.

Regarding Xavier, he or she has developed a flow chart of gold leasing that hopefully will help illuminate the flow of gold and money. The problem is that there appears to be two or more types of leases: gold stays at CB's and gold leaves CB's. I believe, per FOA, that the gold stays at CB's is the Euro/Bis flavored lease. Gold leaving the CB's is the US$/IMF style lease.

When gold leaves the CB it must be returned as gold. The US$/IMF leasees seem to be in quandry in that they can't repay the loans with gold, so they must default (not an option), repay in gold (thus IMF gold and BOE gold sales?), or repay in US$'s (not preferred but may have already been done in LTCM's case), or repay in Euro's (would tend to strengthen position of Euro in international circles and would likely be avoided if possible by US$/IMF CB's but preferred by Euro/Bis CBs). The dilema is that insufficient information exists or is not readily available to ascertain this information thus the confusion. All conjecture it is based on known and guestimated information.

What seems to be confirmed by world events is that US$/IMF faction is really negative on gold, which seems to lower its value. Most of us believe this is because they can't tolerate any significant rise in the POG (price of gold). It may also be to buy time while they try to free up sufficient gold reserves through IMF and BOE sales. Who knows for sure? Not I.

The pieces of the puzzle seem to be fitting together in the A/FOA model. One must try to factor in sources of information so as to determine the filters applied to said information. In other words, if FOA says something, he appears to be in the Euro/BIS camp. If Soros says something, he appears in the US$/IMF camp, etc.

I remain neutral here. I just want to know what the heck is going as I believe all of us do. Sure is fascinating, eh?
USAGOLD
Brooms, IMF sales and such....
Well, now that I am up, I thought I would try posting something to see if the site is really back in operation.

"Tietmeyer said in an interview on German radio that the German central bank, which has long opposed such a move, was not dogmatically against the idea (IMF gold sales), but would have to be convinced of the economic sense of such a move to give its approval."

I haven't had a chance to chase this story all the way to its beginnings but it appears to me that the Germans are less than lukewarm about the idea of IMF gold sales and Gordon Brown and the boys over in foggy Londontown still have the problem of getting this thing through the U.S. Congress. Tsk. Tsk. Details. Details. Reuters it would seem has taken this story and run with it despite a small obstacle or two. One wonders if this isn't an acute case of one talking his book -- in this case the British gold/financial industry in deep, deep trouble. If there is a big hedge fund about to bite the dust maybe it carries the Queen's seal on its incorporation papers?? Just speculating, of course, but there is quite a bit of debris floating about the financial world these days. I can think of no other logical reason for the ceaseless grovelling and pathetic anti-gold witchery practiced by the British Exchequer.

Ah...It's good to be back.

A wonderful board in my absence, fellow knights and ladies, with many good Daily Market Reports.

Usul, you are a clever fellow, my friend. Perhaps you have an allegory for us with respect to the goings - on at the Exchequer's office. And maybe the good people of UK could put one of those brooms to better use? Like a bit of housecleaning at Threadneedle Street? Better yet....#10 Downing?
SteveH
Gold forum withdrawal
Tried to get in all day yesterday. Missed the forum. August gold is now...$260.60.

Seems like the IMF decided to sell gold and Bloomberg? decided to do a full-court press about it, although it appears that they have some of their facts incorrect. Seems like a good time to write Congress about not supporting said sale.

http://www.irs-offer-incompromise.com/elecmail.html
SteveH
Worth repost
09

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 06:15
rhody (LEASE RATES are still low, and that tells me the CABAL is still) ID#411440:
Copyright � 1999 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
in firm control. Right now, the spread between one month and one year
rates in gold is .65% It should be closer to 1.0%. This suggests to
me that gold is being subjected to considerable selling pressure, but
not as much as one week after the BOE auction announcement when the
spread shrank to .35% as speculative shorts piled on and pushed up
near term rates, while mines had not begun to hedge seriously. Right
now mines are hedging and shorts are still borrowing to short, so
the spread is larger, but still displays a very negative pattern for
gold.
Take silver as a contrast. The spread there is 2.5 to 3.0%, and
that is a more "normal" pattern. When these markets are about to
blow, I think you will see much of the initial spot price rise disappear
into a lease rate surge, not a huge rise in POG/POS. Oh, the POG rise
will happen. We should see $5 and $10 spikes, yet on a percentage
basis, I think we will see doubling and tripling of lease rates. very
quickly. Meanwhile it will take months for gold to double. FWIW/IMHO
The lease rate pattern signifies all is well with the CABAL and its
control of pms. No bull yet.
TownCrier
Shift in sentiment from U.S to euro begins...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990614/y.htmlSignificant rise in percent of fund managers now bearish on U.S. equities, while majority see the euro as the most favoured currency over the next twelve months.
FOA
The two months of opportunity to buy gold is ending!
http://www.iht.com/IHT/TODAY/MON/FPAGE/seven.2.html""""" If approved this week at a summit meeting of the Group of Seven industrial nations in Cologne, the proposal would""" See link above.



At this same meeting, new rules of disclosure, for international hedge funds, will again be considered. The gold sale will, like the BOE sale, also be used to balance a very chosen few of the "out of balance books"! All of this is done prior to a major shift in gold valuations, brought on by Euro / BIS actions. The US will openly go along with this change. Please see my posts stating that these last few weeks were the last opportunity to find gold at affordable (and deliverable)prices! The "era" of "this new gold market" that Another was scoffed at for discussing years ago, is over!

SteveH, the long fuse on the dynamite has been lit. Everyone is grabbing their gold and running like hell! Why, because, this time no one is remaining to attempt to put out the burning string. As Another last said, the tide is now changing. I will stand, quietly at a safe distance for a
while. FOA


TownCrier
UK: A high pound and shrinking exports are still slowing the economy
http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_br5476.htmlThe pound has been thought to be too strong, and therefore sterling has been the main preoccupation of the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England, prompting several rate cuts.

Could gold sales be an attempt to kill TWO birds with one stone? In addition to fostering a weaker pound, the need/desire to bring real gold into the market seems self-evident.

"Given that the euro area accounts for half of British trade, euro-enthusiasts will suggest an obvious solution to exporters� worries." A THIRD bird?
Junior
@ FOA - New Gold Game
FOA - Similar "Thoughts" from Kitco tonight - Thanks to "goArmy"
Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 01:15
goArmy (@THC May be this is the reason for Jun Rumors) ID#43487:
Copyright � 1999 goArmy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
THE Group of Eight leading powers will agree on the introduction of laws regulating hedge funds at a summit meeting in Cologne, Germany, on June 18. The G8 agreement is expected to be forged after the US, which was previously opposed to such a move, changed its stance towards regulating hedge funds activities, the Yomiuri Shimbun says, quoting international financial sources. Hedge funds, which have a wide investment portfolio spanning government securities, financial futures and options, are largely blamed for financial crises in Asia, Russia and South America by pulling out large sums of short-term capital. Because the funds are small private investment partnerships for the rich, they do not need to disclose as much information as other financial institutions. As a first step towards regulation, the G8 plans to improve relevant legislation in each country to force hedge funds to disclose information on their finances. The hedge funds regulations will be included in a report after a meeting of G8 finance ministers in Frankfurt on June 12 and will be in a declaration issued after the summit meeting on June 20. The G8 comprises Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the US.
According to Michael Kosares ( whose Gold Report shares the web site with our own market comments ) , the BOE announcement may be aimed at helping speculators out of trouble ahead of new accounting standards that will go into effect this summer by the Financial Accounting Standards Board ( FASB ) . These standards will impose exposure of derivatives holdings, making speculators more accountable. A sustained rise in gold prices would rapidly unwind the value of the many bearish gold trades further reducing their ability to cover their shorts, forcing the disclosure of many undesirable positions.
Junior
BIS & S/Africa Gold Sales
YahooMonday June 14, 7:32 am Eastern Time
S.Africa calls for regulated official gold sales
LONDON, June 14 (Reuters) - South Africa's Reserve (central) Bank on Monday suggested future official sales of gold be conducted in a regulated manner through the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) to ensure market transparency and stability.

James Cross, deputy governor of the Reserve Bank told delegates at the Financial Times World Gold conference that official sector sales should be done in a transparent way.

He said 16 of the top 20 official sector holders of gold were voting members of the BIS -- accounting for around 90 percent of total world official sector holdings.

``We feel that the Bank for International Settlements could play a large role,'' Cross said.

He suggested that official sector sales of gold be conducted through auctions by the BIS according to a set auction calendar.

"Would it not be practical as in the case of government debt, which is marketed in an open and transparent fashion... that the voting members of the BIS commit to selling gold via an annual auction calendar which would be executed by the BIS.

``Would this not take away a lot of the uncertainty in the market. This is not a call to try and fix the price, the issue is that it will bring more transparency,'' Cross said.

Cross said this could ensure that the market would know where the next official sector sales would be coming from, which could add to stability in the bullion market.

``We feel it will go a long way to taking out a lot of the secrecy, the rumour-mongering and it would help a lot to create a stable market,'' Cross said.
SteveH
Gold just jumped $1.00
Junior,

Did you see it?
TownCrier
Third World debt cut by �44bn
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/06/13/stifgnnws01001.html?999Finance ministers of the G8 countries, meeting in Frankfurt, gave their backing to a proposal from Gordon Brown to write off debt of the so-called heavily indebted poor countries.

Modern currency is only as good as the commitment to repay a loan. What does this debt-writeoff portend for the value of the paper in your wallet? Got gold?
Junior
BIS & S/Africa Link
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990614/jw.htmlYes, but I'm not excited until Gold breaks $325. Some how I don't think that will take long. Or will that be 325.EURO Dollars?
Junior
S/Africa Calls forTransparency in International Gold Trading!!
That will be a first if and when it happens.
Cheers and good night from the wonderful land of OZ DownUnder.JR
Peter Asher
Juicy, Medium Rare Food For Thought

This paragraph in Peter Cook's article posted by canamami saturday, raises an intriguing question. [ the phrase in brackets]

>Hidden from view for now is the greater potential of the euro, in terms of its acceptance as a
reserve currency, in terms of [savings and investment growth and the expansion of European
capital markets;] also hidden for now is the inherently weak position of a U.S. economy in which
private savings have disappeared while foreign borrowing soars. That will change. By next
year, the euro-U.S. dollar relationship could be very different.<

Intrinsic to that expansion would be growth in the money supply. As the Euro is required to be backed by gold @ 15%, then more gold would be required in reserve. Who buys that gold and more significantly where does this PHYSICAL gold come from in a desperately short market.??? And at what price?

Finally, if a much higher price is paid for the required gold, how does that effect the valuation of the Euro and its relationship with the dollar?
Gandalf the White
Strange Monday Morning at the NYSE !
WOWERS --- The PPT is really worried this morning ! -- Note that the ($Prem) S&P Futures opened at the 20. level and is not lower than 13. so far this morning. -- The last few days the $Prem never got higher than 5. !!!!! -- However, things are not looking to good as the S&P is near unchanged and the DOW only up about twenty. --- The sharks are starting to smell blood on the Street.
<;-)
Xavier
Gold "Flow" chart v.3
http://www.angelfire.com/de/goldnotes/index.html Steve,
I'm overwhelmed with gratitude for the detail of your responses.
The Gold Flow Chart V.3 is not so much "flowing" anymore as "convoluting"..hope you have a big screen! Tell me if its slow to view etc.
From knowing little of the gold trade to being flooded with information and theories, I get the impression that the info/bits & pieces from everywhere indeed seem to form an emerging non-contradictory whole. I'm still too far removed from the game to really know 'what the heck is happenning'. But it is fascinating, for sure!

I am trying to "divide" a v.3 Flow chart into $US/IMF vs $Euro/BIS 'factions'. Difficult. For example, the BIS Board of Directors includes members who one would think belong to the opposing camp, such as Alan Greenspan and the representative of the dollar-holding CBs of England, Canada... and many more in the long list of 45 CBs who attend BIS meetings.
Or perhaps America does not belong to this "inner circle" within the BIS. It seems that the American CB ( thats the "Fed", right? ) sold off its shares in the BIS to the public, or did not excercise the right to purchase them, and Greenspan/FED is merely a representative of, but not owner of, those shares.( http://www.bis.org/about/index.htm ).
From what I can infer from the chart I have drawn up:
Just as there may be 2 types of gold leasing from the two factions ( ie 1. physical 2. gold certificates ) there surely must be two different types of Burrowers and Purchases. It would be handy to know if, for example, the LTCM burrowed and sold 300 mt of physical, while Scotia Mocatta burrowed and sold x mt of certificates. Maybe we could find out which BBs deal in physical/certificates by inquiring by phone about their transferal of ownership methods!

I am still working on understanding and incorporating your suggestions and FOA's posts. I wonder if A/FOA could enlighten us further concerning this ECB gold leasing via gold certificates, or factions within the BIS, if they exist.

( BTW, Xavier is a Man's name! )

Thanks.

Everyone: comments concerning Gold Chart V.3 welcome. Who are the other large "hedgers", like Barricks or Other rumoured-to-be-shorting BB's that I have not mentioned?
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: Bundesbank Stubborn about Gold Sales, Gordon Brown Inexplicably Continues Anti-Gold Assault
MARKET REPORT(6/14/99): On a day when the dollar is taking most currencies out to
the back shed, gold seems to be holding its own in the early going. Some professional gold
market watchers, like Gold Fields Mineral Services' Phillip Klapwijk, were expecting a bad
day for the yellow metal today after the announcement over the weekend that G-7 had come
together on the gold sales issue. However, upon closer examination of what was said,
particularly by the German central bank, it is still unclear whether or not the sales will occur
and, if they do, whether they will be conducted in a manner and amount sufficient to do
further damage to the price.

As a matter of fact Bundesbank president, Hans Tietmeyer, appeared to be downright
stubborn about the British Exchequer latest anti-gold gamut saying that the German central
bank was not "dogmatically against the idea, but would have to be convinced of the
economic sense of such a move to give its approval." The statement appeared to be a far cry
from the ringing endorsement of gold sales sought by Gordon Brown, chancellor of the
British Exchequer and the reigning black knight of the nearly ceaseless anti-gold barrage.
So its back to the drawing boards, it seems, for Gordon Brown in this latest round of
anti-gold activity. There is also the small obstacle of getting IMF gold sales through the
U.S. Congress, so though the press was quick to put gold in its coffin, it seems the patient
is not quite dead. Though we would not be the ones to minimize the effects of the all out,
no-holds-barred anti-gold assault led by Gordon Brown and the British government. Once
again, we can only ask "Why?"

As it is gold appears to be muddling along this morning despite the above. Reuters reports
Macquarie Equities as saying that "around one quarter of Western world gold mines, or
about a fifth of Western world mine supply, were operating with total cash costs higher
than current price levels. Based on data compiled by industry consultants Brook Hunt and
looking at average mine costs for the period 1999 to 2010, Macquarie said the weighted
average total cash cost was $223.60 an ounce. Some 270 gold mines accounting for 1,806
tonnes of production had weighted average costs ranging from $215 -- which was where
U.S. producers were located -- up to $244 for South Africa's mines, which were the most
vulnerable."

Since South Africa remains the world's single largest gold producer supplying about
one-fourth the total from mining that $244 figure appears ominous indeed especially to
those who have made substantial gold loans to those very same companies. What happens
when the hedge runs out? Do we just shut South Africa down?

Rumors surfaced at week's end about another hedge fund in trouble - this time the gigantic
Tiger Management. Tiger was quick to deny problems though there was a spate of rumors
that the Fed was meeting over how to bail out still another hedge fund pushed against the
ropes. In the early press reports, word was that Tiger was "appealing to the Fed for help"
late last week belying the Top Gun image they, like Long Term Capital Management, so
assiduously cultivated among well-heeled investors. Those well heeled investors, by the
way, seem to be bailing out in droves from hedge funds like Tiger Management -- which
reportedly had to come up with $3 billion in redemptions. Tiger vehemently denied the $3
billion in redemptions out of its $13 billion in overall capital -- all of which shows that even
the mighty must perform in order to keep the cash flowing. Tiger's portfolio according to a
Reuters report dated 6/11/99 is down 8% year to date -- not the sort of trend investors like
to see from these highly leveraged funds. A little innocent smoke can lead to a major capital
conflagration down the road.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
Aragorn III
You must admit you have been warned...
A review of things said not long ago. With time comes fresh prespectives for many.

"...despite taut labor markets, inflation also fell to its lowest rate in many decades by some broad measures, although a portion of this decline owed to decreases in oil, commodity, and other import prices that are unlikely to be repeated."

"Equity prices are high enough to raise questions about whether shares are overvalued. The debt of the household and business sectors has mounted, as has the external debt of the country as a whole, reflecting the deepening current account deficit. We remain vulnerable to rapidly changing conditions overseas, which, as we saw last summer, can be transmitted to U.S. markets quickly and traumatically."

"Foreign savers have provided an additional source of funds for vigorous domestic investment. The counterpart of our high and rising current account deficit has been ever-faster increases in the net indebtedness of U.S. residents to foreigners. The rapid widening of the current account deficit has some disquieting aspects, especially when viewed in a longer-term context. Foreigners presumably will not want to raise indefinitely the share of their portfolios in claims on the United States. Should the sustainability of the buildup of our foreign indebtedness come into question, the exchange value of the dollar may well decline, imparting pressures on prices in the United States."

[Ask yourself as you read this following section if there is a fundamental difference compared to the debt write-off suggested by TownCrier's article of the G8.]
"The Russian government's decision in mid-August to suspend payments on its domestic debt and devalue the ruble took markets by surprise. Investor flight exacerbated the collapse of prices in Russian financial markets and led to a sharp depreciation of the ruble. The earlier decline in output gathered momentum, and by late in the year inflation had moved up to a triple-digit annual rate. Russia's stabilization program with the IMF has been on hold since the financial crisis hit, and the economic outlook there remains troubling.
The Russian financial crisis immediately spilled over to some other countries, hitting Latin America especially hard. Countering downward pressure on the exchange values of the affected currencies, interest rates moved sharply higher, especially in Brazil. ... With budget reform legislation encountering various setbacks, market confidence waned further and capital outflows from Brazil continued, drawing down foreign currency reserves. Ultimately, the decision was taken to allow the real to float, and it subsequently depreciated sharply. Brazilian authorities must walk a very narrow, difficult path of restoring confidence and keeping inflation contained with monetary policy while dealing with serious fiscal imbalances. ...the slow onset of the crisis has enabled many parties with Brazilian exposures to hedge those positions or allow them to run off."

[Acknowledgement of a better way.]
"Monetary policy certainly has played a role in constraining the rise in the general level of prices and damping inflation expectations over the 1980s and 1990s. But our current discretionary monetary policy has difficulty anchoring the price level over time in the same way that the gold standard did in the last century."

"...technological developments have progressively broken down barriers to cross-border trade. The enhanced competition in tradable goods has enabled excess capacity previously bottled up in one country to augment worldwide supply and exert restraint on prices in all countries' markets..."

[Concluding on a positive note.]
"Americans can justifiably feel proud of their recent economic achievements. Competitive markets, with open trade both domestically and internationally, have kept our production efficient and on the expanding frontier of technological innovation."

[From Testimony of Chairman Alan Greenspan--The Federal Reserve's semiannual report on monetary policy, February 23, 1999]
PH in LA
Inconsistencies in the mainstream propaganda.
Thank you, FOA, for the link to the story in the International Herald Tribune. It points up very well the problem we amateurs have while researching in the mainstream press and also underlines the important role played by critical thinkers like yourself.

I refer to the obvious inconsistencies woven into the mainstream story. They are so flagrant it makes even the most superficial observer blanch.

At the beginning of the article it is stated: "If approved this week at a summit meeting of the Group of Seven industrial nations in Cologne, the proposal would for the first time finance some of the debt relief by selling about one-tenth of the gold stockpiles of the International Monetary Fund." (The need for US Congressional approval is conveniently overlooked.)

Next, it is stated that: "the sale seems certain to further depress world gold prices, which have slid to their lowest level in two decades on government plans to unload the precious metal on world markets. Gold for immediate delivery, which closed Friday in London trading at $260.65 an ounce, was quoted Wednesday at $259.25 an ounce - its lowest level since May 1979."

This seems to be the whole and sole point of the article, since the rest of the numbers in the article leave the reader breathless with inconsistency. To wit: The total debtload is placed at "$220 billion, a sum so staggering that social critics and aid agencies say debt-service obligations trap these nations...in poverty and preventable disease." (Debt relief prevents disease; a new scientific conceptual breakthrough?) Since a relatively simple calculation shows that the proceeds from the sale of 10 million ozs. of gold would pay off scarcely 1.25% of the debt even at current prices (even though the article states that prices are expected to fall further with the announcement of future sales) another conflicting number seems to be necessary. So it is supplied:

"The Cologne program foresees as much as $70 billion in debt forgiveness" blithely states the article, without specifying from whence such a sum is to be derived...leaving the impression that the sale of 10 million ozs of gold will do the trick. $2.6 billion from the sale and a resulting $70 billion in relief...barely 3.7% of the relief coming from the sale of the gold. Talk about ballpark figures!

Yes, FOA! Your absence would be felt acutely (while you "stand, quietly at a safe distance for a while") even as we wait patiently for truth to manifest itself. The few facts sprinkled about in the mainstream press' propaganda soon confuse without enlightening analysis.
USAGOLD
Math Majors/Engineering Students:
I invite you to consider the ramifications of a reduction in the gold supply of roughly one-fifth current mine production -- about 2500 tons. Then consider that the South African costs run $244 ($16 from the current price) -- that another 600 tons out of the equation give or take a few tons. Even when you add back in the British sale of 415 tons which will occur over five years (I think was the time frame); the Swiss sales of 1300 tons over a ten year period (if they occur); and the IMF sales of 300 tons (if they occur, no time period as yet). Please consider one very important fact: Once a nation sells its gold, it has no more to sell. Seems rather juvenile to state something like that but bedrock fundamental in its importance. In other words, once the British sell that metal can no longer be held over the market's head. Meanwhile mines fill up with water, third world (host) countries experience revolutionary breakdown, miners move on to better rewards, equipment rusts, environmental hazard multiplies, processing plants lock up from lack of use, etc.

All of this doesn't even quantify the problem from the hedge funds -- the other big market for gold loans and potentially an even riskier proposition for lenders. (As in...How many gold mines does Tiger Management own anyway?)

When you consider all this, do you think that those who lend the gold might be a little concerned about getting it back? I expect gold lending to run into a wall at this level and I think the problem is that the central banks lending gold see that problems ahead and like any lender their concern for getting their gold back overwhelms the nifty 1% they are getting for lending it. Watch lease rates. I think they are about to spike.
ss of nep
COLEMAN - Committee of 300
Does anyone know a phone number for World In Review
published by Coleman ?

The 1-800- number does not work from where I live.

Long distance information in Nevada ( 775 ) does not seem to be able to assist.

...........................................
ss of nep (6/4/99; 9:15:52MDT - Msg ID:7141)
COLEMAN - Committee of 300
Coleman publishes a newsletter. WIR
WIR has a web page
http://www.worldinreview.com/index.html

Coleman has written a report on Gold & Silver.
.........................................................................
ss of nep (5/27/99; 5:59:06MDT - Msg ID:6780)
Say What
Does the plot thicken, or is it just more of the same ?????

An interesting story here, about 250 pages, I have only
scanned a bit of it so far .

http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/new_world_order/one_world.shtml

http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/new_world_order/one_world_2.shtml

I think that I have read Atlas Shrugged about 5 times ......
BUT ....

Those of you that have a liking for Ayn Rand just may
change your point of view.
Do a search for Atlas Shrugged in the 2-nd of the above
two links.

Gold is cheaper now then 2 weeks ago, get more,
find a hiding place then
run away.
AEL
Beowolf -- currency collapse?

Beowulf (6/12/99; 20:57:07MDT - Msg ID:7529): "Anyone see this
happening? Could it be that the central banks are setting up the
world currency systems for a collapse, at which point people will be
running to banks to withdrawl what isn't there. In order to make
people happy they credit the peoples accounts with digital dollars
and create a digital system, what they've wanted all along. To me
this seems like something that could happen, what with the
overwhelming use of credit cards and debit cards most people will be
content with that. Anyone else believe this could happen?"

This is almost precisely the thesis in Mark Ludwig's book "The
Millenium Bug -- Gateway to the Cashless Society", which I am now
reading. Idea is that the Y2K threat to fractional reserve banking
will be used by the feds to recall all currency and go 100% digital.
Hmmmm. "Cash is king"... or maybe pauper? This might actually be
pulled off. However, there is the huge wildcard of precisely how bad
objective Y2K software and embedded-chip problems turn out to be
(probably pretty bad, but then who really knows?). The book has many
interesting passages; wish I had a scanner and OCR -- I would post a
few pages here (along with urging everyone to buy a copy, natch!).

Here's one passage from the "Personal Preparedness" chapter near the
end: "Cash will be important for at least a short period surrounding
the bank runs. However, anywhere from two weeks to two months after
the declaration of a banking holiday, you may be requested to turn
cash in or watch it become worthless. If you're opting out of the
cashless society, you'll have to be out of cash before that happens.
There will probably be a door open to redeem cash overseas after the
domestic recall date, but getting it out of the country will be very
difficult... although demonitization of Federal Reserve Notes may not
happen right away, if you see things headed toward the cashless
society, understand that it would be unsafe to assume they won't be
demonitized. As the deadline for demonitization draws near, they will
lose value as people will start to view them as problematic. You
don't want to get caught holding the bag then. On the other hand, if
we don't head toward the cashless society, you will want to hold on
to your paper money until the millenium bug actually hits. If the
money system really does go down [i.e. if Y2K-related banking
problems really are bad], they will be the preferred medium of
exchange for at least a while [yes, so I've thought, too]. Truly, the
period between when the bank runs start and the millenium bug hits
will be interesting and dangerous."

To me, all of this uncertainty simply re-confirms my main operating
preparation principle for the upcoming whatever-this-whole-debacle-
is-going-to-be,precisely: convert symbols to real stuff! Food,
metals, sneakers, etc., and even some FRNs. The only exceptions to my
"real stuff" rule might be late model and gas-guzzling autos, and
urban real estate, which are likely to depreciate. I do not think
that it is possible to go far wrong with this strategy.

-- Alan

PS: very interesting discussion thread on Y2K and banking:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000wkf


mike55
AEL
Alan -- I read your post with interest as the theme of the book you are reading discusses a concept that I have been mentally debating for quite some time, namely e-currency. I am not a proponent of e-currency for numerous reasons. And whether this change could occur within two weeks, two months, or two years of the Y2K rollover is somewhat irrelevant. I personally believe that if there are financial Y2K-related problems, people will be hesitant at first to accept such a currency change since they were already "once bitten" by computers (programs). However, if e-currency was forced by our and other governments around the globe, and the choice is between trading in your FRNs or a sharp stick in the eye, most will quickly acquiesce to the e-currency. Especially if the spin is that "it's the only way to get us out of this mess and get the economy rolling again". I hope it never comes to this, but it certainly seems possible over time (several years?).

So what would back the new e-currency -- debt, electrons, and/or a portion in gold? What if e-currency were backed as the Euro is proposed to be?

Whither gold?

P.S. I will continue to trade paper for metal as funds permit, in spite of the ongoing point/counterpoint running through my mind.
TownCrier
Depressed gold price "hurting poor countries"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_368000/368702.stmDespite the headline, the media once again hammers the UK public with anti-gold rhetoric. The eventual backlash will not be pretty.
TownCrier
Japan acts to stem rise of yen
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_368000/368740.stmJapan's central bank bought up dollars to slow a rise in the Japanese currency because a stronger yen is a threat to the exporters that power Japan's economy by making their goods more expensive overseas.

Wouldn't a wealth-savvy Japanese resident conclude that gold savings is therefore more attractive than any attempts at yen savings?
TownCrier
Greenspan Cautious on Productivity
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990614/economy_gr_3.htmlGreenspan said in testimony today to the congressional Joint Economic Committee "...experience advises caution." He will testify Thursday on monetary policy.

Cavan Man
Mike55
My friend, if it is any consolation, I am doing the same thing. I am retaining enough FRNS to be flexible. I do not have nor can I make the time to do a thorough "point/counter point". I came in late in the fourth quarter. There are still large pieces of the economy that are "cash businesses" ; Coin OP laundaries and parking lots to name a couple. Perhaps these are bad examples but when I go to the ballgame tonight and park my car and then sit in the stands and buy popcorn and peanuts, how do I pay with digital currency? My point is it would take a lengthy transition to get everyone on board and all systems up and running. E currency or dollar; what's the difference if not backed by substance (gold)? Gold is real money. Now, if you are alluding to marshall law and confication, that is another can of worms to be debated here.
Leigh
(No Subject)
Re FOA's post #7561 this morning, I think I can understand why the US would "openly go along with a major shift in gold valuations." For every $1 rise in the POG, the value of its gold holdings (approx. 260 million oz.) increases by $260 million. If the price were to go to $1,000 or higher, the U.S. would be passively increasing the value of its hard assets. Am I on the right path here, or did FOA mean something else?

I would be SO grateful if someone would kindly tell me exactly how to go about buying Euros, and whether buying physical European currency now means that I can trade it in anonymously for physical Euros later. Thank you!
mike55
Cavan Man
Yes, it is consolation to hear from others. I'll keep the point/counterpoint right where it's been -- mental volley only. On the "cash only businesses", I agree with you completely. That's why I mentioned several years to affect a changeover. In fact, many economies and peoples around the world are not nearly as "e-currency compliant or adaptable" as the U.S. Also, I forgot to mention that I don't believe that Y2K (problems or not) would be the reason for a conversion. It could be *used* as a reason, it could *be* the reason, but the possibility of e-currency has been around for a long time. Martial law or confiscation? I'll plan and attempt to protect for what I can, but some things are beyond our control. No need for debate here. And like you, of course I agree gold is real money, otherwise I wouldn't continue to trade paper for it!! Thanks for your comments.
Aristotle
Leigh, in answer to your request
"I would be SO grateful if someone would kindly tell me exactly how to go about buying Euros, and whether buying physical European currency now means that I can trade it in anonymously for physical Euros later."

Any large bank worth its salt can meet your foreign exchange needs. It is a very simple exchange to pay US Dollars at the current exchange rate (plus the bank's commission) for a wide variety of national banknotes.

Because physical euro tender will not be introduced until January 1, 2002, you would want to obtain one of the euro-member national banknotes if you were to insist on a physical "euro" during this interim. Upon euro tender introduction, there will be a time period not to exceed six months (latest deadline is July 1st, 2002) in which legacy currencies must be redeemed prior to losing their tender status.

What a hassle! Are you planning on a trip to europe, and therefore are wanting to secure a supply of spendible euro cash? It would be easier yet to open a bank account in which you would hold your euro numbers as a ledger entry, ready to spend (or swap for physical cash) at whatever point you need them.

If not for vacation, is this something you are considering as a flight of safety from a downturn of the dollar? You might discover to your dismay, while sitting on a large euro account, that when the dollar adjusts and Gold turns, Gold will appreciate vs the euro, too. And you'll surely wrinkle your nose at good planning but poor execution. "I shoulda got the Gold," you'll be thinking.

Enjoy your travels(?) ---Aristotle
TownCrier
Commodities-Aluminium, nickel shoot up, gold rebounds
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990614/2o.htmlReal things demand higher prices
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review ---(It's good to have you back, MK!)
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 14--
Palladium was pressured by the dollar's climb against the yen and
continued jitters over rumored selling last week by giant hedge fund Tiger
Management, even though sources close to Tiger have denied that the
company has offloaded any of its palladium positions. Weak palladium
prices and a stronger dollar also helped push platinum lower, while gold
and silver settled little-changed amid dull trade.

In palladium "there are two sides saying two different things," said
one trader, noting that some brokers are still suggesting that Tiger was a
seller of palladium last week, while others remain doubtful.
One market observer said that Tiger may have done some palladium
lending last week, and possibly closed out some gold shorts, although this
could have been "just part of their normal dealings."

One hedge fund manager, who did not want to be named but was close to
the Tiger management team, said Friday that Tiger was not unwinding any
positions in the Treasury, palladium or gold markets.
However, traders noted that the rumors themselves were enough to make
palladium jumpy, given that Tiger is still perceived to be one of the
major longs.
Talk circulated Friday that Tiger was closing out some positions
because of large redemptions by the fund. However, Tiger said Friday it
could pay out these redemptions fourfold.
While some players suggested that dollar's strength against the yen
was another main culprit behind overnight sales, Asia dealers said that
the Tiger rumors had given some speculators an excuse to take profits on
Tokyo Commodity Exchange.

Gold and silver were subdued, as a result of the absence of many
market players attending the Financial Times gold conference in London
today.
Aug gold settled down 30c at $262 per ounce, while Jly silver settled
down 1c at $5.105 per ounce.

"It seems like $260 continues to be a magnet for the market -- there
is decent 2-way trade at this level," said David Meger, senior metals
analyst at Alaron Trading. He said that there was "enough talk" of a
short-covering gold rally ahead of the UK Treasury's first gold auction
set for Jly 6, that it might become a reality. "That's why we're not
seeing aggressive selling below $260, not of the nature we saw below $265
and $270," he explained. "We can't follow through because the market is
already so short--we need consolidation before move lower and $260 is
support for the time being," added one trader.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
Gandalf the White
The world from another view ---
Now everyone, you think that we have it bad. -- Just look at this and be thankful. AND this was the GOOD news, other deleted as it would make you cry!!! Some light side also.
<;-)
----

June 13, 1999
THE WEEK in Thailand
SUMMARY OF THE NEWS : JUNE 6 TO JUNE 12
GENERAL NEWS
Popular PM
A new Assumption University survey showed 70% approve of Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai's performance, while 26% said they were dissatisfied. But 51% or more gave a thumbs-down to the performances of the finance, commerce, education and university affairs ministers. The survey included 2,804 people, and Mr Chuan's popularity was surprisingly higher up-country than in Bangkok.

March to power
Former and would-be future Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh said he plans a month-long, 100,000-mile long "march around Thailand" to campaign for a second shot. Gen Chavalit was forced from office by street protests in 1997 after the military refused his request to censor the media and declare martial law. He said he might not be able to complete the trip because the government might collapse any
day now.

Thai media tops
Singapore-Expatriate businessmen in Asia believe Thailand, the Philippines and Japan have the freest press. They put China, Vietnam and Malaysia at the bottom, with the most-controlled media. Overall, said the Political and Economic Risk Consultancy, "Governments in asia seem to be taking a more liberal attitude toward press freedom these days."

The naked city
Developers starved for both cash and credit have abandoned 364 unfinished buildings in Bangkok. Some have become magnets for crime, and all are deteriorating to the point they will need major renovations simply to complete them. The skeletons of dead construction projects reflect overbuilding by developers, a key cause of the recession.

The longest race
Deputy Prime Minister Supachai Panitchpakdi said no one should hold their breath waiting for break in the WTO leadership deadlock. "Everything is still the same," said Dr Supachai as he returned from his Latin American trip with Prime Minister Chuan. Mike Moore of New Zealand and the Thai candidate "still can't accept one other." The concern at World Trade Organisation headquarters in Geneva was that the Thai and the Kiwi will still be at each other's throats in November, when crucial global trade talks are to begin.

Deadly combat
Chiang Rai-Border Patrol Police shot dead seven tribesmen from the Wa State [ NOTE THAT IT IS NOT WA(shington)State ]Army drug-trafficking group. Police recovered one million amphetamine pills after the Mae Chan district gun battle. It began when a 30-strong BPP patrol under Pol Maj-Gen Thawal Bunsoong came across about 20 armed men in the jungle. They opened fire when told to stop for a search and a fierce gunfight ensued for about 30 minutes.

Workers' bomb
Police blamed growing labour tensions for a bomb explosion near the office of the governor of the state-run Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand in Nonthaburi. The command-detonated bomb blew up just after governor Veeravat Chalayont had left work. Police believe the small device, planted near a tree, was intended to serve as a warning rather than kill.

Madder cows
Thailand joined most of Asia and the world in a sweeping ban on Belgian farm imports. The biggest food scare since mad cows raised fears that food was contaminated by the cancer-causing chemical dioxin. Belgian chocolates, dairy products and meat were banned by the Food and Drug Administration. Goods already on store shelves were to be removed. Singapore has issued a blanket ban on imports of all European meat, eggs and dairy products.

Foreign exodus
The Labour Ministry announced there will be no more labour permit extensions for foreign workers. That means that 90,911 labourers, mostly agricultural workers, will be on their way home, starting in August. About 80 percent are Burmese, and most of the rest are Cambodian. The workers were given a year of grace last year-after their Thai employers said they could not survive without them. They perform unpopular jobs for low wages. There are also an estimated 600,000 unregistered labourers in the country.


ECONOMY
New bank sale
The Bank of Ayudhya, known as Bay by investors, announced a strategic tie-up with Taiwan's South East Asian Investment Holdings Corporation. Company sources aid SAI planned to take a 10 percent stake in Bay, Thailand's fifth largest bank. Krit Ratanarak, bank chairman, said teh Taiwanese will bring in other investors as well. The bank is to restructure debt with a number of the recalcitrant corporate clients.

Bonus payment
Bangkok Bank [ #1 Thai Bank ] announced it will pay employees a half-year bonus of one month's salary on June 30. The biggest bank also paid bonuses last year, on schedule, but called them "special welfare aid" payouts and sparked fear that normal annual bonuses were ending. Third-largest Thai Farmers Bank told its employees there won't be any bonuses this year again because, like most businesses, it is still losing money.

Shin does NY
Telecoms giant Shin Corp, once known as Shinawatra, said it will be the first Thai company to list on a US stock market. The actual market wasn't identified. It has hired JP Morgan as its successor depositor of American Depositary Receipts-which are commonly issued by a US bank in exchange for shares of a foreign corporation. Chairman Boonklee Plangsiri said the company will "markedly increase our visibility and liquidity for US investors," and will start by increasing permitted foreign ownership from 35 to 49% -$120 million at the company's current share value.

Alfa comeback
Alfa Romeo spokesmen said the company is returning to Thailand and to Asia. The decision has yet to be made where to build the cars-Thailand or Malaysia. Fiat starts making cars again in Thailand next year, so it may bring in the Alfas as well. Asian Alfa Romeo will be the 156 mid-sized family car which is popular in Italy-but with an automatic gearbox, which Italians hate.

Incentive plan
A new economic stimulus package will include tax incentives for foreign investors, Deputy Finance Minister Pisit Leatham said. The new package will encourage foreign investors to locate production in Thailand. It may also include a securitisation scheme to provide assistance to the moribund property sector.

Record budget
The cabinet approved a budget of 860 billion baht for fiscal year 2000. It will be Sawatdiparp Kantatham, director of the Budget Bureau, said the budget will run a deficit of 110 billion baht-around 2% of gross domestic product. By comparison the budget this year is 800 billion baht, with a planned deficit of 4% of GDP.

Greatest debts
The World Bank ranked Thailand as the world's ninth largest debtor, immediately after Argentina, Russia and India. But the Banks annual global development report said the country has the highest percentage of short-term debt: 38% of the total.


� Copyright The Post Publishing Public Co., Ltd. 1999
Last Modified: Sun, Jun 13, 1999

=====
<;-(
TownCrier
FOCUS-Oil holds strong gains as stockpiles ease
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990614/79.htmlGlobal petroleum inventory surplus fell in April for the first time in two and a half years.
TownCrier
Internet Sector Gets Slammed but Dow Closes Solidly Higher
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/mktupdate/755830.htmlEasy come, easy go...as internet stocks take a beating
Technician
Poll Results
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlThanks for those who visited my web site and took part in poll. Results for strongest markets this year:
77% gold
13% CRB
10% oil
0% DOW
0% $
No surprise, I like gold to. But from my perspective CRB has just about everthing technical going for it. In my opnion, the $64 question has been answered. Inflation or deflation? For the time being count on higher cost of living. Meanwhile I will be content counting my bullion.
SteveH
August gold now...
$261.70.

This in from kitco. Anybody know what he means by mt?

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 19:26
africanminer (Canada bought 200 mt AU) ID#219348:
From a very credible source�..Purchase was out of Asia @$252.50 per oz. ( private transaction ) don't expect any web site news article on this one.


XAVIAR, I am having a rough time with the chart because I don't have a printer (here anyway) and find the logic difficult. I can't follow the money. When I can print it on one page and go over it I will let you know more. In the meantime it would be nice if others through there two cents in on it. Thanks for the work.

Gandalf the White
SteveH
Think metric tonnes.
<;-)
SteveH
Sorry if this site was already posted
http://www.stocksite.com/features/contrarian/rap/Good read, especially the Joanie part.
Gandalf the White
BTW, SteveH
You might also be interested in a bridge named "Galloping Gertie". -- I have a wonderful picture of it where it crosses the Narrows at Tacoma. Do not believe all you see, esp. on that other location!
<;-)
SteveH
Got to love great posts like this...
www.kitco.comDate: Mon Jun 14 1999 16:39
ORO (Allen(USA) - I agree completely - however,) ID#71231:
-
I think the CBs are not sufficiently dumb to let the gold go into private pockets of "friends" alone. If so, they would not have had the gold price go this low for extended periods. This allows everyone to buy low. Meaning that they do this in order to get gold bullion to either a large buyer ( oil states ) or to allow the "little people" of the world to accumulate the metal ( to assure the existance of small pockets of capital in the event of a credit system meltdown ) - or both.
If the shorts were actually covering in a big way then the paper POG would rise, not fall.
Remember that "given sufficient rope, the financial industry ( banks, funds and investment houses ) , have allways managed to hang themselves". The actions of the IMF and BOE may have been intended as a way to save the paper shorts but have probably caused the reverse reaction since this constitutes "providing more rope".
This is the usual Western CB reaction. This is what they did for LTCM and their associated bankers and the rumored one trillion dollar notional value or their derivative book. They provided more credit by lowering interest rates and supplying sufficient liquidity to allow the players to buy the components of LTCM's long positions. The new owners must have been very happy with the results they obtained, since they bought so much new commercial and international debt.
Thus the industry shifted one of the many "crazy aunts" from one attic to another by marrying her to a new husband. Unfortunately the new husband was too weak to withstand his libido and they created a progeny of "troubled children".
Aristotle
Pondering the future of e-currency
AEL, Cavan Man, and Mike55--your discussion today left me thinking about e-currency as I had lunch today, and I thought I'd try to reproduce my musings.

I would use my e-currency to buy an e-car with which I would road-trip (verb...please forgive me, all you English majors out there) to Denver to save the postman a little wear and tear on my next Gold acquisition. "What's an e-car?" you ask. Good point. I had better get me a REAL car instead.

Denver is a long way from here. I'll surely have to stop several times to purchase some e-fuel for my real car using my e-currency. "E-fuel?" you ask again. OK, consider this...imagine that I don't actually have to come into contact with the fuel--I simply drive into a service bay and hand a highly trained fuel attendant your e-currency card. After he plugs a hose into my real car for a brief time, I see my fuel gage register F (for full) and catch a sleight whiff of gasoline in the air. I am soon on my way. Had I not been so observant, could I maintain the fantasy that I received e-fuel in exchange for my e-currency? Perhaps. But my dumb ol' real car knows the difference. If it doesn't get real fuel, it won't cooperate on this hypothetical visit to Denver. The important thing we must note, and without any room for question, the fuel is REAL. I'm sure we would soon discover the similar truth about e-food when dinner-time arrived.

The question that must be asked is "What is e-currency?" Is it nothing more than e-NUMBERS? Cool. Check this out: 999,999,999,999,999! We are all on Easy Street because I am generous and willing to share! Oh, wait... it's not that simple, you say? Damn. It seems that there must be some real currency in there somewhere...

OK then, I've got an open mind. Tell me what it is. What is the currency? And while you're at it, tell me what a dollar is? What is a yen? What is a peso? What is a ruble? THEY ARE ONLY NUMBERS! Ledger entries, to be closer to the mark. Grab yourself some nines, my friends! But still, surely there is no amount of pretending that will allow us to accept that e-currency is simply e-numbers, but there you have it. Our legal tender today is nothing more than numbers, and a good portion of it exists only as electronic transfers already. Oh, sure, as in the fuel station example, if we are very observant with a keen sense of smell when we visited a currency station (bank), we might catch a faint whiff of contracts in the air. Only in that regard is our modern currency currently real. My, how easy it would be to replace this cumbersome "currency" accounting system (that requires a helluva lotta trust) with something simple and elegant as Gold weight for currency, with ownership tracked and transferred electronically (or with pencil and paper--or even physically--if you insist.)

It is the natural next step from here. If you peel the economic onion, you eventually reach the inner layers that reveal why our current system has worked to this point. The onion has a golden core. As Aragorn was kind enough to explain to me last month, the concept of true money was never lost on a few important entities. The acceptance of dollars for some key world transactions (with their ultimate behind-the-scenes redemption for Gold at whatever the prevailing market price) was all that was needed to "float the boat" to use his expression.

I'll write more on that as time allows. Or maybe I can appeal to Aragorn to tell it in his own words. It helped me to better grasp what FOA has described over time.

Real Gold. Get you some. --- e-Aristotle
SteveH
GATA
Some bad with the good:

Subject:
[GATA] GATA cited in Gartman Letter, Gold Newsletter
Date:
Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:53:54 EDT
From:
GATAComm@aol.com
To:
gata@egroups.com



9:45p Monday, June 14, 1999

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

There's good news and bad news for GATA, but even the
bad news is good.

The bad news, such as it is, is that GATA was
disparaged loudly in a recent issue of the Gartman
Letter, a major commodities market publication. Here's
what the Garman Letter had to say:

"The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA), a
gathering of disgruntled gold bulls, is in the news
once more, charging yet again that the gold market's
lending operations dominated by the central banks and
hedge funds have reached a point of considerable
'systemic risk.'

"GATA notes that the total amount of gold lent is
between 8,000-10,000 tonnes, thus creating a 'squeeze'
that must eventually send gold higher, creating
problems for the central banks and for their attendant
governments. This is rather like the national corn or
wheat growers becoming concerned that the amount of
corn of wheat futures trading exceeds the national
production of grains and thus is manipulative.

"It is very much the norm to have more grain futures
trading and more gain futures derivatives operative
than the amount of grain produced, several times over.
This is the nature of the derivative hedging
operations.

"GATA's arguments are the arguments of gold-market
bulls unwilling to accept that their positions are
under water, driven there by legitimate market forces.

"Nonetheless, as gold prices rebound in the next
several days, look for GATA to claim credit for the
rise, and look for others to give GATA credit also. In
reality, there may be something minor in GATA's
arguments concerning the gold lending trade that has
some kernel of truth to it, and we'd not be surprised
to learn of some hedge fund somewhere running into
trouble as gold rallies and their carry trades become
burdensome. However, given the seriousness of the gold
market collapse in recent weeks, it shall take a rally
of monstrous proportions to create the environment, and
at this point we are very hard-pressed to see how or
where it might evolve."

While there is criticism of GATA in the Gartman Letter,
note that it also acknowledges that GATA well may be on
to something. And of course in the War Against Gold,
GATA doesn't ask much more than that gold's enemies
spell our name right. Our friends will know us, and
thus all publicity is good for us.

The fully good news comes from Gold Newsletter, now
edited by Brien Lundin, who succeeded the great Jim
Blanchard upon Blanchard's death two months ago. Lundin
attended the Northeast Investment in Mining Conference
in New York a couple of weeks ago and heard GATA
Chairman Bill Murphy's speech there. Gold Newsletter's
cover story for the June 1999 issue, in the mail today,
reports that evidence of manipulation of the gold
market is building and that skeptics are becoming
believers, thanks largely to the Bank of England's plan
to sell gold and the strange timing and rationale
offered for it. Gold Newsletter's story concludes this
way:

"Those of you who subscribe to the conspiracy theories
now gaining wider support, or those who just like to
stir things up a bit, should support the Gold Anti-
Trust Action Committee (GATA), launched by Bill Murphy.
I've known Bill for some time, and I can tell you that
he's one of the more ardent and knowledgeable gold
supporters you'll ever come across.

"As evidence of this, he launched GATA to use anti-
trust laws to sue the banks and broker-dealers that he
and many others feel have been manipulating the gold
price. GATA has so far collected over $50,000 from
interested investors and gold-mining firms, and has
retained the respected Berger & Montague law firm to
investigate the issue. I don't know whether GATA will
ever be able to prove anything in court, but their
efforts are gaining broader publicity and will at least
subject the gold shorts to greater and greater
scrutiny.

"I urge you to contact GATA for more information. Write
or email John D. Meyer, Treasurer, GATA, Box 888, Great
Barrington, Mass. 01230 (email: bfameyer@aol.com). You
should also visit GATA's website at www.gata.org."

GATA is deeply grateful to Gold Newsletter and Brien
Lundin for these comments -- and even to the Gartman
Letter as well, if not quite as warmly!

Once again I ask you to post this wherever it might be
helpful.

As always, thanks for your interest and support.

CHRIS POWELL
Secretary, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
(GATAComm@aol.com)

-END-
SteveH
for Xavier on leasing
www.kitco.comSorry for the reposts. I thought three times about reposting this as one could simply just pop on over to kitco to read this but when you see all the posts right on top of each other it takes on an extra significance, eh?

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 17:51 Ed Fishbaine (gold leases) ID#190195: to the extent that there is any transfer of physical gold out of the CB vaults it is probably not going to the hot shot gold carry boys. It is being bought, and to some extent ( ? ) transferred to major players like Saudi Arabia and possibly China and others interested in protecting themselves from a vulnerable US dollar. Strictly IMHO.

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 17:44 Ed Fishbaine (CB leases) ID#190195: Allen

I agree that the CBs might be interested in dispersing gold in whatever form to certain countries or groups. Has it occurred to you that they may be setting up a very unusual and long term sting operation to trap the lessees. When the gold price runs up they will have some very major players by the you know what. There will be desperate efforts to survive and the CBs, or whoever represents them ( ? ) will dictate terms. As long as they maintain physical possession of the gold, which I believe they do they can do this. Actually this is the gold vs paper war no?

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 17:44 Allen(USA) (Ed, ORO and the crew) ID#246224: Well, it looks like there is a flow of physical outbound from the CB's via leases according to other participants here. In terms of who gets the gold? Well we can pretty much rule out the little guy ( never happens in this world! ) . So that leaves the big guys ( few ) and other factions ( oil, etc ) . All I can figure is that we are in a con job of immerse proportions. And when it stings, it will hurt big time. Ouch! ( for me NOT! since I have physical and will enjoy the ride upward from here ) .

8- )

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 17:15 NewPhys (Gold - thinking another unthinkable) ID#392177: Copyright � 1999 NewPhys/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved All: Europe still has alot of gold bullion, though the CB's probably have loaned alot more than they say they have sold. So -- if the European economy collapses, would they 'sell' more gold? I think we still need to consider the possibility that gold might still go down if the European economy tanks. We don't need to worry about massive US gold sales if the US economy tanks, do we? A European crash doesn't seem likely at the moment, and I suspect the new European elections will discourage gold sales. Comments from the Euro-experts? Having said that, I think the more likely scenario is what appears to be unfolding -- that some really big hedge funds are short gold -- and in deep trouble. Inflation seems to be returning to the US, even if wage inflation is not a problem. Any significant rise in short term US treasury rates will greatly increase interest payments, and enhance the annual deficit. And -- a Kosovo fiasco would be bullish for gold. Our troops are sitting ducks, holding the low ground. North Korea is heating up too. George Tenet stated last tuesday that the situation there is very unstable and unpredictable.

It seems that the June 14 prediction for gold to bottom comes from a G7 meeting on that date to discuss the need for more disclosure in hedge fund operations. Apparently the US is now in favor of public disclosure of hedge fund derivatives trades. This puts more pressure on the gold derivatives speculators.

Of course, if AG wants to keep his gold derivatives trades private, they will still be private.

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 16:52 uptick (GOLD LEASING) ID#277249: As a participant and market maker in gold for the last 20+ years, i wish to assure you that the gold indeed leaves the vaults on a lease...in virtually every case but not all......

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 16:45 sam (@ Ed Fishbaine - Yes, the physical _does_ leave the vaults.) ID#29068:

We had a ferocious debate on this subject a couple of months ago. Get your hands on a copy of the GMFS gold book and look at the graph of lease rates vs. NY Fed holdings -- the rates go up and the gold goes out.

cheers - sam_a.

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 16:43 SteveIS (@Sam & @Chas) ID#286353: Copyright � 1999 SteveIS/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved Sam thanks for info. I agree it looks like another, possibly a big, rise in open interest tommorow. There an old saying that the best cure for a low price is a low price. The price of gold is low enough that there are plenty of willing buyers. These buyers are strong hands not trend following specs.

The manipulation of the gold market is getting more and more blatant. They arrive with big sells at predetermined price levels. They are generating more and more gold slam articles for the media. The G7 announcement was amazing. It included hard money Germany and France as well as Japan whose allegiances aren't entirely clear.

Whats even more astonishing is the CABALs unwillingness to let gold generate even 2 up days in a row. Maybe this is a sign that Rubin is not actively leading the shorts anymore. Clearly the pressure for a rise in the POG is getting extreme. The building open interest is a sign that they are very close to losing control of this baby.

Already they have weakened their best tool. Anouncement of government sales have been very useful in driving down the price of gold. But the announcement over the weekend had almost no effect. It took some massive sales into a rising market to keep the lid on todays POG.

Given the apparent fear of any kind of any rise in the POG the next rally could really be something special.

namaste'

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 16:39 ORO (Allen(USA) - I agree completely - however,) ID#71231: - I think the CBs are not sufficiently dumb to let the gold go into private pockets of "friends" alone. If so, they would not have had the gold price go this low for extended periods. This allows everyone to buy low. Meaning that they do this in order to get gold bullion to either a large buyer ( oil states ) or to allow the "little people" of the world to accumulate the metal ( to assure the existance of small pockets of capital in the event of a credit system meltdown ) - or both. If the shorts were actually covering in a big way then the paper POG would rise, not fall. Remember that "given sufficient rope, the financial industry ( banks, funds and investment houses ) , have allways managed to hang themselves". The actions of the IMF and BOE may have been intended as a way to save the paper shorts but have probably caused the reverse reaction since this constitutes "providing more rope". This is the usual Western CB reaction. This is what they did for LTCM and their associated bankers and the rumored one trillion dollar notional value or their derivative book. They provided more credit by lowering interest rates and supplying sufficient liquidity to allow the players to buy the components of LTCM's long positions. The new owners must have been very happy with the results they obtained, since they bought so much new commercial and international debt. Thus the industry shifted one of the many "crazy aunts" from one attic to another by marrying her to a new husband. Unfortunately the new husband was too weak to withstand his libido and they created a progeny of "troubled children".

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 16:27 Ed Fishbaine (gold carry) ID#190195: Copyright � 1999 Ed Fishbaine/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved Allen

Do you believe that the CBs are letting physical gold out of their possession? IMO this is impossible. The gold carry trade is purely a paper operation. The lessee gets a certificate of ownership from the CB against his signature. He sells this certificate to the buyer who then owns gold on deposit at the CB. The lessee uses the dollars paid buy the buyer to invest in say a 30 year treasury and pockets 6% out of which he pays interest to the CB of say 2%. That is the game.

Now what is the status? The CB holds the physical gold but does not own it. The buyer owns the gold on deposit at the CB and the lessee owes the CB the gold borrowed.

The fun begins when the lessee cannot pay back the gold loan. Your theory of playing bankrupting games and running off with the stolen profits is interesting but may not work for two reasons: some big players would be exposed as crooks and secondly not owning the physical gold would disrupt their plans via multiple lawsuits etc.

I am interested in other ideas about how it would playout with major defaults developing.

Date: Mon Jun 14 1999 15:22 Allen(USA) (Are they selling physical gold or paper? To Whom and why???) ID#246224: Copyright � 1999 Allen(USA)/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved Physical paper or electronic blips? What are they REALLY selling? There is no transparency in this market. Who can describe the mechanics of this market? So I ask WHAT are they selling.

But they sure are desperate to keep this puppy down aren't they?

Q: Who gains by selling into a descending trend?

A: Shorts and long term longs whose cost is below current market but they are concerned about keeping profits.

At this level the longs would have had to come by their investment back in the mid 1970's or earlier! These aren't longs selling.

How short can they go before there is no realistic profit in the downside?

Let's posit that most of the short selling is on paper and that the physical gold market is not able to return gold to the shorts. Let's say the shorts now know this problem, they recognize the upside potential and recognize that they are, sooner or later, bancrupt. If that was you what would you do? I think I would sell as much paper as I could while getting as much of my operation divested into other parts of the organization which are not legally liable for the bancrupcy of the gold trading arm.

There was a practice in the 1920's and 30's of rigging a series of shell organizations in such a way as to minimize the risk and maximize the control of the parent organization. Profits flowed out to the ultimate parent organization but liabilities would be isolated to the local organization. The names would imply that this was one large company, but the actual structure would be such that any gangrenous limb could be severed without hurting the rest of the organization.

So the point, I think, at this time is to buy time to reposition and be ready when TSHTF in the gold market in a big way. As long as the market is willing to trade paper promise of gold then Houses will continue to 'borrow' gold and short it down as far as they can go.

Shift perspective here. They sell it to whom??? They sell the physical metal to themselves at an ever deceasing price ( another organization completely outside of the original org ) . When the price explodes they default, severe the dead limb and still have the physical metal in control of their other organization. Who is left holding the bag??? The lenders. In effect they have transfered gold from the CB's into their pockets via various means. They have used their reputations to gain confidence and confidence to gain gold. When the con is recognized the players will be LOOOOooong gone down the road.
jinx44
new euro production...
I usually follow the logic around here, but I am a bit stuck on the assumption that the ECB member banks will be forgiving xxx tonnes of gold loans to the bullion banks and the hedge funds and taking settlement in the next best medium---euros. If it really takes gold to create new euros, how can the CB's and other lenders liquidate the debt with euros?? There aren't enough euros at the current level to be bought with $US by the funds to pay back the CB's they owe gold to. From whence cometh the new money, unless by strictly fiat methods?? Someone help me here...THX.
mike55
e-Aristotle?
e-Aristotle, please tell me it ain't so -- you've gone the e-way? I thought you would have bought an e-lectric car and that e-fuel fill-up would have been e-lectricity. Hey, skip EVs and go straight to fuel cells. I think to road-trip is a verb, while roadtrips are nouns (ala Animal House) -- forgive me, but I'm a simple guy and find sophomoric humor entertaining at times (well, a lot of the times, much to the consternation of my wife).

On a serious note though, I fully agree with your points. As I posted earlier, I'm not a proponent of e-currency, and understand that it's no different than current FRNs and would be of no intrinsic value without some form of backing like gold. It (gold) is the next natural step as you say, but *will* it be the next step in these unnatural economic times? Perhaps in several years? I assume part of the onion's golden core are the dollars + gold = oil transactions. I also understand that "gold and oil don't flow in the same direction" as written by ANOTHER. There must be other international transactions that accomplish similar results. I want to learn more about what is currently keeping the boat afloat, and about the behind-the-scenes redemptions you mentioned. I have read the forum for quite a while, gone through the archives, and read FOOTSTEPS a couple of times.

If you or Aragorn would be so kind to write more on the subject, I would be most grateful. Thank you.

As always, I continue to trade paper for metal as I am able. I want to believe -- tell me more.

not-e-mike signing off. Good night all!
Peter Asher
Gulliver, Where Are You?
http://www.drudgereport.com/Would somone please suggest to the North and South Koreans, that they break their eggs in the middle.

Is this what's meant as "Gunboat diplomacy."
Aristotle
e-sorry, Real-Mike55
I didn't intend to cause anyone any e-distress. My "e-Aristotle" was intended to reinforce the nonsense of such things as e-food. The focus of our attention must ALWAYS be on the real thing found behind the "e". 'Cause, Brother, it ain't money if it ain't gold. At best, it might be a proxy for money, such as our convertible dollars. So, for as long as you or I think we need money, we are well served to continue converting our proxies for the real thing.

I will make a promise to deliver that explanation very soon, unless the Big Guy (A.III) beats me to it. The very important bottom line to realize when the tale has been told is this... Even when gold was priced much higher than it has been these past few years, some very worldly and influential people (let's call them Giants!) were not only paying cash for as much Gold as they could get, but they were also BORROWING cash to obtain as much Gold as the market would offer.! A grand tale. So let everyone take heart who may have bought a substantial amount of Gold only to watch in dismay as the price fell for an ever better deal of a lifetime. In a sense (and I know this will sound preposterous), the Gold market has been "rigged" insofar as only sellers have made their presence known at the open market. To quote Aragorn again, the "serious buyers have always paid in full yesterday for delivery of Gold tomorrow." Essentially, it had to be this way. The marketplace won't be aware of the real action until precious little new mine production reaches the streets. While the market hasn't exactly been cornered, all of the cheap Gold has been spoken for, and the prospects for its delivery has come into doubt. I believe that England has been loudly proclaiming its "official storyline" on Gold via its own auction, and pressure on the IMF as a means to appease these aforementioned patient Gold shoppers. Apparently, in their greed, the hedge funds have mucked up the works, and good deals have been seriously jeopardized by bad ones, and the last Great Gold Scramble of the Millennium is drawing nigh. I've got mine (real!), and am making more.

Real money. Make you some. ---Aristotle
beesting
Comparing grains to Gold.
I'd like to comment on The Garman Letter portion of SteveH's msg.#7599 post from GATA(And by the way,many thank you's SteveH for all of your posts):

"It is very much the norm to have more grain futures trading and more gain(grain) futures deritives operative than the amount of grain produced, several times over. This is the nature of the derivative hedging operations."

Comments:Obviously written by a commodities specialist who knows the commodities markets.
But lets compare the commodity grain,to what the writer thinks is a commodity--GOLD.
First,the paper grain markets have historically survived" off years" in the physical grain market by exercising the "Roll Over".
Second, farmers in many parts of the world are "subsidized" by Governments'so they won't quit farming.Assuring a constant worldwide supply of grain,fall is harvest time in the northern latitudes'spring is harvest time in southern latitudes.
Now Gold; The paper "Roll Over"seems to be destroying the Gold mining industry by making Gold mining unprofitable,at present world spot Gold prices. Forcing closures in higher cost mining operations, therefore causing less physical Gold to be produced as time goes on.
I submit from, The World Gold Council:(1997 figures if I'm not mistaken)(1998 should be released shortly)
World Gold production about; 2550 Tonnes.
World Gold consumption about; 3600 Tonnes.
Where did the the 1000 Tonne shortfall come from? Most say from scrap Gold and storage, very little from Central Banks(they sell to each other)
Many here say the next figures to be released will show a much larger shortfall, world demand is larger than world production.
Therefore we are in the middle of a War on Gold! One side wants to value Gold as a commodity only,and treat it as a commodity.They are the financial tycoons of our era controlling huge amounts of paper money worldwide,with much influence. The other side(The Goldhearts) realize Gold is the very foundation for any and all monetary value.They have history on their side, and a few astute bankers.
If side #1 wins this war, the Central Banks will sell there Gold on the open market causing 12 to 14 years of depressed Gold prices till demand catches up with supply.
If on the other hand side #2 wins this war,prices may start to rise at any time, and go to unprecedented levels.I've got my bets on side #2,logic seems to say side #2 is winning the war! We watch this next chapter together........beesting
SteveH
NY Times Ariticle on gold...l
SteveH
Aristotle
Aren't farms closing at record rates too? Which points out the problem with speculators controlling the price of commodities with paper games and driving a commodity below the price of production and hurting or destroying the producer.

August gold at $261.30.

Tomcat
Could unmined gold or oil be used to help cover shorted gold positions?

There is not enough gold to cover the short positions. Therefore, gold will eventually rise. This is the foundation of many arguments on this forum.

This argument assumes that there is little else that will act as substitute for gold; hence the argument in in favor of the euro.

The the acceptance of the euro might require not only the decline in the value of the US$, it might require the collapse of the entire US$/IMF system!

But the US$/IMF system is not going to go down without a fight. Furthermore, it is not totally clear that the euro will be an acceptable substitute. Yes, the euro is backed with 15% gold, but will that allow the holder of a euro to turn the euro into gold? Not if the gold is unavailable. The euro is still paper. It is not a physical valuable like gold or oil or silver.

What if the investors and banks, who loaned out their gold, wanted something physical. Certainly, if they can't get gold, they will consider other physical valuables.

I am sure that some investors would accept ownership in gold mines if that ownership included a delivery some physical gold to them over time as it was produced. It beats worthless paper.

ANOTHER and FOA have emphasized that oil is comparable to gold in value. Why wouldn't some investors and CBs, who lent out their gold, accept barrels of oil in return for their loans? Granted, there would be many problems with this approach. But, when faced with holding worthless paper or accepting something physical (with storage problems), the investors and CBs might take their oil and run!

If I had lent out gold, and saw absence of gold on the horizon, I sure would be thinking of acceptable physical substitutes. A physical substitute might not be ideal but when the run on fiat money starts, physical substitutes for gold might start looking very attractive.

Perhaps negotiations for acceptable gold substitutes have already started behind the scenes?

Is there any reason why gold substitutes are not discussed very much? Or am I really missing an important point?

Peter Asher
Tomcat
Good morning. Oil or another tangible might substitute for gold as a trading vehicle, passing on value from borrowed gold to oil to Euros for example. But, gold was what the bank had in the vault and gold is what they will wish to have returned.--- Vault, value, storage, Gold!

First consider all the data that has appeared here on the Forum regarding gold as the true and optimum via for holding unspent wealth. Then to cement the vision, imagine taking a bright and shiny Gold Eagle off your shelf and replacing it with fourteen big barrels of smelly crude oil.
Peter Asher
Tomcat
I should add, that if there was an "absence of gold on the horizon, ergo gold would be commanding a very high price, I would want my gold all the more.

If the demand for the gold would force default and the bankruptcy of the obligated party, The lender might settle for cash. (As rumored to be the case in the LTCM bailout)
If cash is not of any value, then the problem is much bigger then the relative aspects of holding gold, oil or other tangibles.
Tomcat
Peter Asher: Substitutes for Gold

Sir Peter, I am glad you responded. Your words helped me clairify my original thoughts.

My concern is that as the market bubble starts to deflate (or even burst) and when the run from paper and the flight to quality starts, you will see some start to panic. In a "fear driven" flight to quality there won't be time to dwell on the idealistic qualities of gold. There will be a desire to save one's financial tail! And at that point compromises of all sorts will be made in order to save their shorts (pun intented)! Smaller losses have driven some to suicide!

So, I'll reword my question:

In a "fear driven" flight to quality, what will act as a substitute for gold for those trying to cover their short positions?

Tomcat
Peter Asher

I did not see your latest post, #7610. My reply was to your first post, #7609.

In #7610 you said: "If the demand for the gold would force default and the bankruptcy of the obligated party, The lender might settle for cash. (As rumored to be the case in the LTCM bailout)."

Peter, I think it is going to be just that simple. Many gold lenders are going to have to take cash and purchase whatever tangibles they can get. They are investors and they blew it and they will have to take their losses.

To the degree that these gold lenders accept fiat money, it will lessen the demand for gold and this will lessen the upward pressure on the POG.

It is very possible that many shorters went short knowing full well they might not be able to cover. The greed for inexpensive money could drive many to take the gamble.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: Interesting News from the London FT Conference; China a Buyer??
MARKET REPORT(6/15/99): Gold was steady today as the British pound continued its
rapid descent -- down over a full cent in early trading. We pointed out at the time Bank of
England announced its gold sale that this might be a signal that the British currency was
about to plummet. It has. And speculators are beginning to pile on.

In the next issue of NEWS & VIEWS, we show a graph of the pound sterling and what has
happened to it since the gold sale announcement. It is not a pretty picture especially if you
happen to be a British citizen with your savings in that currency. Inflation is sure to follow,
if other devaluations are an indicator, and those who purchased gold in that country will be
happy they did. Has Britain become the first G7 victim of the Asian contagion? (I consider
the Japanese model of economic dysfunction its own particular malaise outside the
contagion description of high inflation, high unemployment, currency depreciation, stock
market collapse, bond market melt-down, bankruptcies, skyrocketing gold prices, et al.)
Time will tell. These gold sales are not without their prime cause. We simply wait to
discover what the prime cause might be before passing further judgement.

Overall the market was generally described as calm in both Asia and Europe overnight.
Reuters reports interestingly that though the IMF and Britain might be sellers of gold other
central banks might be buyers including China. `When some central banks in Western
countries and international financial institutions begin selling or intend to sell gold on the
international market, China's central bank, lured by the current low gold prices, may
consider buying some from the market to increase the share of gold in its international
reserves,'' Ouyang Wei, editor of China Money published by China's Xinhua News
Agency, said. Also gleaned from this morning's Reuters London, we find that George
Milling Stanley of the World Gold Council agrees with our assessment of the possible sale
of IMF gold expressed here yesterday. "No matter what was said at the G-7 meeting over
the weekend, the IMF sale is anything but a 'done deal,'' said Stanley.

In other gold news this morning the Financial Times World Gold Conference is underway
and already some interesting statements have emerged -- all as reported by Bridge News
this morning. To wit:

"Barrick's forward sales are not a reflection of the company's negative price outlook and
are inst ead struc tured purely to deliver dependable results to shareholders." ----- Jamie
Sokalsky, Chief Financial Officer, Barrick

"The London Bullion Market Association (LBMA) has set up a new rule book to include
changes made in response to new UK financial regulation by the Financial Services
Authority (FSA)." ------- Peter Fava, Chairman of the LBMA

The spot gold price is likely to become much more volatile, with a trading range as wide as
$100-150 per ounce over the period of a few months possible within the next 5 years,
according to Kevin Crisp, vice president and precious metals strategist at JP Morgan. ...
Crisp stressed that the price fluctuations would be both up and down.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
a.m. currency notes
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990615/pm.htmlMost IMM currencies weaker, yen up early, Koreans duking it out.
TownCrier
Banks Face Telemarket Dilemma
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990615/financial__1.htmlBanks lick their chops at the prospects of selling customer information to telemarketers for big bucks. Parties concerned with privacy fight back.
TownCrier
Gold edges higher in Europe, touches $260.00
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990615/vu.htmlGold market news...essentially an echo of a portion of MK's morning report.
TownCrier
INTERVIEW-Anglogold sees gold fall overdone
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990615/dd.htmlA good interview with Kelvin Williams, the executive marketing director of the world's largest gold producer, Anglogold Ltd.
"The market has been given an unique opportunity in the Bank of England publically announcing gold sales in advance... to speculate against that action. ...In a sense, the BoE sale in itself would be easily absorbed in this physical market. In the way they have announced it, they have introduced a distortion to the paper market and the result is that this huge speculative short against the gold price is a distortion and the market consequently is in a negative over-reaction."

Lots more...click the link.
TownCrier
From the "You've got to be kidding me" Department...
Company Press Release:
BORNEO GOLD CONTEMPLATES CHANGE OF BUSINESS

VANCOUVER, British Columbia--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 14, 1999-- Borneo Gold Corporation (VSE:BNO - news; "The Company") is pleased to announce that it has retained the services of Canaccord Capital Corporation for a contemplated Change of Business.

Subject to an ongoing due diligence review, Canaccord will undertake to provide on the Company's behalf a Pre-Assessment Stage Application and a Member Sponsorship Letter recommending Borneo Gold Corporation for a change of its listing to a non-resource company on the Vancouver Stock Exchange.

As reported previously, Borneo is evaluating opportunities in the Internet field which have the potential to maximize shareholder value. A number of businesses have been identified which meet the Company's criteria and are undergoing further due diligence.
-----------------------
Now TownCrier has seen everything! Are they going to mine e-gold?
TownCrier
Treasury's Geithner sees G7 debt-relief deal
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990615/sq.htmlGeithner said outright forgiveness of all debt was not a U.S. objective since that might discourage prudent borrowing in future.

Sounds like they have been visiting our forum, and have formed the tiniest germ of a clue.
mike55
Who is this guy and why is he saying these things?
Since I'm a novice, I don't know who's who. This article is quite long and without a link, so I just copied and pasted the date and time stamp from that other site.


Date: Tue Jun 15 1999 09:51 General
(latest from Larry Edelson of SAFE MONEY REPORT:) ID#365216:
Copyright � 1999 General/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
"Gold market will crash to as low as $180 - a climactic end to the 20-year decline."
Peter Asher
Tomcat
In a "fear driven" flight to quality, what will act as a substitute for gold for those trying to cover
their short positions?

Maybe the first look should be at the classic quote which I believe came out of the Hearst/What's his name?-Stock battle. "He who sells what isn't hiss'n; must buy it back or go to prison"!

When one has 'assets' to protect one can buy timberland, farmland, the means of production of essential goods at book value or less, and collectibles. However, a short has a 'debt' to repay in kind.

If the 'creditor' of the short sale doesn't accept a negotiated settlement in lieu of the gold, than it's a default. The creditor has whatever collateral he hopefully required. And the short probably files for bankruptcy. That's the main point that I think has been stressed in our discussions here. The shorts don't have the financial capability (net worth) to pay back the gold at the price it will rise to: Period.

The position of the creditors is only as sound as the Law and the assets of the game allow for it. Even "Too big to fail" is only workable if the paper 'assets' in the system prevail. That's the essence of the basically predatory activity of "making' money on nonproductive endeavors. Those earnings are the "gleanings". If there is not enough 'crop' of real production to glean from, the activity can't survive.
TownCrier
Bank 'cavalier' in defence of reserves sale
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=001736818560686&rtmo=VZuuwwjx&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/99/6/15/cnbank15.html"The Bank of England has thrown a cat among the pigeons as far as sentiment is concerned. Imagine it was foreign exchange. If the Bank was selling Japanese yen it would not tell everyone six weeks in advance."

To visit this site (London Daily Telegraph) requires free registration. There are some links to other good articles from within this one. Give it a try.
Goldfly
Mike55

I'll tell you what, Mike. If Gold does go down to $200 or so, that's when I'll trade in my collection of Mounties.....

I'll get a 50% increase in that portion of my holdings! Cool!

GF
SteveH
Players position and more...
I noted that the LBMA will be changing their reporting methods that will result in more volatile price swings. Sounds like pawn to white-bishop three to me.

This in from www.stockhouse.com miq forum today and yesterday:

Thanks for posting info Steve. Please feel free to post any comments.

Bellow is a good explanation.

<< Do you believe that the CBs are letting physical gold out of their possession? IMO this is impossible. The gold carry trade is purely a paper operation. The lessee gets a certificate of ownership from the CB against his signature. He sells this certificate to the buyer who then owns gold on deposit at the CB. The lessee uses the dollars paid buy the buyer to invest in say a 30 year treasury and pockets 6% out of which he pays interest to the CB of say 2%. That is the game. Now what is the status? The CB holds the physical gold but does not own it. The buyer owns the gold on deposit at the CB and the lessee owes the CB the gold borrowed. >>

I still think CB must protect themselves from above happening. Why? For simple reason that if you can lease something at 1.5% for extended period of time there must be strings attached. If this leased gold was under high degree of non-delivery, lease rates would be 10 times of that. How about simple condition attached to the lease that stipulates gold MUST stay in the CB vault until middleman fulfils his obligation. So far all commotion is happening in the middleman (fat cats ) camp not on CBs part. Perhaps CBs gold is safe. That scenario will definitely make CBs the winners. Back in 95 I was approached by wheelers and dealers based in Moscow who have heard about this type of loans based on physical gold (on safe deposit) in exchange of certificate that was later used in roll over programs. It never worked for them due to Russian bank insisting gold stays in Russia and no foreign bank would issue certificate unless gold was safe in their possession. In case of mining companies they generally have access to bank loans once they have positive feasibility study done by independent consultants. Depending on size of project such study may cost in to tens of millions. Lending bank often takes part equity (shares) and part debt position.

< From: +Richard Harmon Tuesday, Jun 15 1999 8:32AM ET Reply # of 35386

< paper with a promise?>> either can happen, most often(from what I understand) it is hauled out. <> 1% interest per year, <> some are unsecured, I understand, while most often 10% of value in $. << Does the metal have to be "returned" at the lend price equivalent, or simply returned by weight of metal borrowed?>> We have been left to understand many contracts of late have been setteled in $ only or future delivery contracts, not actual metal. >>

If contracts lately have been settled in $ not physical metal then such lease arrangement became straight sale. In other words physical metal was brought to the market but never taken out of it to return back to CB by bullion dealer. The winner is who ever got physical gold.


DD
Joker in the Deck
Greetings all. This is my first post. I couldn't contain myself any longer. I've read with great interest the posts on this forum for months. Good stuff. Very insightful. But I think there's a joker in the deck that should be considered in evaluating all senarios. That joker is Y2k. I've done so much research on Y2k over the last two years that I'm tired of thinking about it. I'm a systems expert and a consultant on change management and business productivity. I only consider data, not opinions in looking for direction on Y2k issues. My research indicates that Y2k is going to be a significant problem, especially in the global economy. The bubble economy in the US is at risk from any number of unexpected shocks. At these lofty levels of over indulgence, even a small shock could cause things to begin to unravel. Y2k is no small thing. It's a major shock that is going to play out in the next year or so. The Big Boys (paper & e-money crowd) control and manipulate things in this world for their own benefit. We all know this. However, I don't believe anyone in the fiat money corner has the power to control the potential outcomes of Y2k. For the first time in a long time, we have an impending event that cannot be manipulated away. Contrary to popular belief, in general, the bigger an organization, the more vulnerable it is to Y2k. Once people realize the potential effects of Y2k to themselves personally, the fear factor for most is going to go to unprecidented levels. I've already seen the power of this type of fear in the early adaptors of Y2k (about 1-2% of the population currently). Believe me, when people "get" that their world may be turned upside down, they get scared. That's also when they begin to take action. Action? Yes. Like selling stocks, taking cash out of the bank, reducing spending and buying prepardness items. Opps! Not so good for the bubble. My question is: Assuming Y2k does manifest as a global hornet's nest, what do you think will happen to gold, oil, banking and etc.? I've enjoyed the posts of Another and FOA greatly. I wonder what might they might think of potiential senarios where Saudi Arabia, and other oil producing states can't get their oil to market due to Y2k problems. Or, what if the oil flows but the world, including th US, is in a global depression due to Y2k? What happens to gold, both paper and real? Anyway, I hope that this post will be cause for thought. I look forward to your comments. Best, DD



mike55
Welcome DD!
Some of my posts over the last few weeks address similar aspects and questions related to Y2k -- the potential for slow (and in some cases fast) unraveling of problems, the "peeling of the onion" of system interrelationships, distribition of goods, the effect on economic slowdown, etc. Interesting is the broadbased effect that opinion leaders have on the early adaptors; more so the lack of effect on the rejectors!
Buena Fe
Hear their cries Lord!
http://asia.yahoo.com/headlines/150699/world/929409840-90615012432.newsworld.htmlLook here, you rich men, now is the time to cry and groan with anguished grief because of all the terrible troubles ahead of you. Your wealth is even now rotting away, and your fine clothes are becoming mere moth-eaten rags. The value of your (what you consider to be?) gold (US$) and silver (US T-Bonds) is dropping fast, yet it will stand as evidence against you, and eat your flesh like fire. That is what you have stored up for yourselves, to receive on that coming day of judgment. For listen! Hear the cries of the field workers whom you have cheated of their pay. Their cries have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have spent your years here on earth having fun, satisfying your every whim, and now your fat hearts are ready for the slaughter. You have condemned and killed good men who had no power to defend themselves against you.

Now as for you, dear brothers who are waiting for the Lord's return, be patient, like a farmer who waits until the autumn for his precious (gold?) harvest to ripen. Yes, be patient. And take courage, for the coming of the Lord is near!

Quoted from "The Living Bible" James chapter 5, verses 1-8.
Everything in parantheses is my interpretation.

PS I am not a religious person, but I believe that God's Word, God's Wisdom and His work of Salvation are "MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD AND SILVER" as He has proclaimed throughout His Word. Therefore if (as certain bankers would have us believe through their onslaught in the press etc. etc.) Gold is not precious (just another commodity) than anything that you measure it against cannot be more precious ie. "The Word of God". This reverse logic has encouraged me greatly these last few days. God gave us Gold as standard of measure by which everything including His own Wisdom can be measured by. No matter what the propoganda says "Gold is Precious"!!!, the rest is an illusion.
TownCrier
U.S. reserve assets up $1.065 bln in June 11 week
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990615/15.htmlWe sure talk a lot about other countries' reserves. Here is a look at ours.

Gold? What is THAT doing in there?? Heh, heh, heh... :)
Peter Asher
Is This a Harbinger of the BOE Auction?
http://news.excite.com/news/r/990615/14/business-oil-brazilAs Lincoln said -- "You can fool (with paper trading) some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

Today's Oil rights auction shows that some folks know the real value of the finite resources of Planet Earth, and are willing do put up high stakes against that value being fully paid for in the near future.


FOCUS-Oil giants rally to landmark Brazil auction � By Tom Ashby

RIO DE JANEIRO, (Reuters) -
International oil companies rallied to
Brazil's first-ever oil exploration auction on
Tuesday, putting up a surprisingly high $93 million for the right to explore in just four areas on the first morning of a two-day bidding round.

The size of the initial bids confounded critics --------
------ Agip's shock $75 million bid, by far the biggest of the morning, beat off two competitors in Britain's BG on $11 million bid and a consortium of U.S. independents Kerr McGee and Amerada Hess , with an offer of $5 million.
Leigh
mike55
Sorry, Larry Edelson, but I'm going to stay with the advice of Another, FOA, and Josef (who are predicting an imminent rise in the POG) and keep my gold! Don't want to be empty-handed on the day the price soars!
TownCrier
FOCUS-Gold industry gloomy with price at record lows
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990615/1s.htmlSummary of the day's events at the 22nd annual Financial Times World Gold conference.

You've really got to admire Kelvin's passion, but I think he needs to recognize that "money" is nearer to the mark in his concluding comment. Further, a re-education campaign for the public would be more effective and perceived better than the gimmickry of standard Madison Avenue-type advertising and marketing. Get on it, boys...
SteveH
Another worthy...no...excellent post from...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/cgi-bin/gn/get/forum.htmlabove link. Just excellent.

A VIEW ON GOLD
(milos) Jun 15, 13:48

Lets get a couple of thing straight about the Gold situation;
If I am wrong, please provide qualified argument.

1 � The Gold trading range is presently managed, it is trading within the 259-261 range, it takes no rocket scientist to see from Kitco charts 3-5 point daily swings are actively suppressed. One should understand that this chart is derived from future paper value not SPOT.

2 � In actual fact, the POG we get from these charts is by NO MEANS representative of the current market value of Gold since for the most part it is now being delivered from forward contracts by producers in the 300-340 range. In reality the charted present value is completely bogus and a market ploy. The future values we see are continuously being rolled forward artificially.

3 � I can only analyze the events from Nov 98 because that's when I took an active interest in Gold and conclude the following; There is no liquidity in Gold, in other words the CBs are not releasing reserves into the marketplace. This is evident by all the news hype whenever small quantities enter (or are announced to enter) the market. There is a shortfall that must be made up to satisfy the spot market and control the perceived market value and demand.

4 � Don't be fooled that Bankers will supply Gold from reserves in exchange for paper, they are in the debt obligation business, Gold is the only REAL ASSET they have (other than real estate). Don't think for a minute that they are about to divest themselves of Gold, in fact they are very much concerned about not being able to obtain more from future production.

5 � BOE Gold, it is my understanding this inventory is kept at the FRB in NY. Based upon the conditions of sale, the quality may be scrap unrefined gold not suited as fine gold. It may very well go for well below market value as a consequence. No doubt they will make hay of the poor price they fetch.

6 � IMF Gold, again this inventory is being trickled into the marketplace, we've already analyzed the bogus nature of this announcement along with the unqualified reasons for its disposition.

7 � The propagated notion of depressed pricing for the next 5 years is obviously a message to discourage investors from participating in the market so they can gracefully unwind hedge funds over the interval (8000-10000 tons).

8 � Swiss Gold, this is a non-issue, if the Swiss detached the currency from Gold it was done to protect the Gold not the currency. Not an ounce of Swiss Gold will hit the street.

Summary
Lies and BS galore. Just buy and hold, market dynamics will fix everything in time. Producers will stop the flow of spice due to production threshold costs and the situation will become progressively aggravated with shortage. It's a rotten political/brokerage scandal that encompasses our present world order. As a consequence this malignant disease will simply erode trust and confidence of the entire free enterprise system and all the players thereof.
Squelch the noise that comes from the likes of Chris at JPM. We've heard his BS before.

Get Gold and Quality Mines!


Usul
(No Subject)
Experts. What do they know, eh?
mike55
Leigh
I'm 100% with you. Better to be a few years early than one day late. On the other hand, I just received a mailing promoting the purchase of U.S. Savings Bonds -- highlights of the mailing include: "Diversify; don't put all your eggs in one basket"...."Do not compare apples to oranges; Savings Bonds are a guaranteed investment"...."Cash on demand; get your hands on your money whenever you want it"....and the clincher: "And remember, Savings Bonds are safe and secure. They are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States".

It's almost too much to believe -- Edelson and the Treasury trying to persuade me all in one day. I'm gonna run right out, sell all my gold, and put my full faith and former wealth into bonds. NOT!!!!

Keep tradin' that paper for metal.
Jon
Leigh's msg#7630
Have been away for several weeks. Can you or someone else direct me to comments on imminent rise in POG by Another,FOA, and Josef? Many thanks.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review [it's not much, but that's all there is!]
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 15--

Gold continued to consolidate in its current range and stuck close to
the $260 level after an inside session. It has been somewhat pressured in
recent sessions by the dollar's rebound against the yen after last week's
heavy dips, said traders.

Overall, gold has been quiet both today and Monday as a result of the
absence of many players who have been attending the Financial Times Gold
conference in London.

--Aug (GCQ9) at $261.0, dn $1; RANGE: $262.3-260.6

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
mike55
Jon
FOA's 6/14/99 #7561 is probably one that Leigh referred to.
Leigh
(No Subject)
Jon, Steve H copied a message last week from Kitco from "Josef the Gambler" (#7315). Another sent a message that night (#7353). FOA posted an urgent message yesterday morning (#7561). Although they were all somewhat cryptic, they indicated that time is running out to buy cheap gold. Something is going on.

"...The triumphing of the wicked is SHORT, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment....The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him." (because he's in jail, maybe!) Job 20:5, 9

Aristotle, thanks for the information about Euros. That was exactly what I wanted to know. No, I'm not taking a trip (though my Navy husband will be in that region for the second half of this year). I was looking for a safe haven for our mutual stock money. We can't put it in a house yet because we're scheduled to move in January (fun!!). I am afraid to keep it in the bank; what if they close? How about...U.S. SAVINGS BONDS!!!
Cavan Man
Buena Fe
Hello. I refer you to the Revised Standard Version of the Good Book. The translations contained therein are much closer to the original Hebrew and Greek than the aforementioned. You're right about those bankers!
TownCrier
A Must Read: Leading Y2K guru signs off until 2000
http://www.jrnl.com/news/99/Jun/jrn13140699.htmlReferring to what he calls recent "spin control" by government and corporations to reassure Americans that the country will weather Y2K with only minor disruptions, Yourdon warns in his farewell that "noncompliant (computer) code doesn't listen to the rhetoric of politicians - it either works or it doesn't work."
TownCrier
Security task force urges care when preparing for Y2K bug
http://www.nationalpost.com/news.asp?f=990615/2726151&s2=nationalBecause utilities, banks and others might get sloppy in the rush to fix their computer systems, there are legitimate fears of vulnerabilities of systems to computer hackers.

"We are in the information age, so we depend very heavily on information systems in this country," said Sgt. Waring. "Are there some gaps in some of those security systems? It's fair to say there are some."

Can you sleep well at night knowing that your life's wealth is comprised primarily of information? Look's like gold has a big job ahead! Rock-a-bye baby...
TownCrier
Y2K Test Approaches - 200 Days And Counting
http://infoseek.go.com/Content?arn=a2079LBY004reulb-19990612&qt=y2k&sv=IS&lk=noframes&col=NX&kt=A&ak=news1486In January a major computer breakdown at social security offices in Marseilles, France, paralyzed payments. In a few days frustrated benefit claimants smashed up three post offices before riot police stepped in.

Shades of things to come?
TownCrier
Mixed Concerns About Bank Compliance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-06/15/094l-061599-idx.htmlY2K potpourri...a little bit of everything, sorta.
Jon
Responses from Leigh and mike55
Thank you very much for your prompt responses.
Anyone know what transpired at the Bilderberger meeting in Sintra a week or so ago?
TownCrier
MONEY BRIEFING: Not everyone's playing the stock market game
http://enquirer.com/editions/1999/06/14/fin_money_briefing.htmlFirst section is a good Reality Check. Go on...Take a quick look.
canamami
Frustration with the POG and Goldbug Theorists
Karl Popper once juxtaposed the theories of Einstein and Freud. In setting forth the theory of relativity, Einstein predicted that a certain celestial body would be at a certain place at a certain time. The older Newtonian physics could not account for this body's movement. At the appointed time and place, the body appeared, supporting the veracity of Einstein's theory. Popper compared this favourably to Freud and his followers, who would just amend the theory when facts did not support it, providing ex post facto rationalizations for the failure of the predictions when they did not come true, or the failure of the facts to support the theory. In this way, Freud's group was like a religious sect which has to explain away the failure of the predicted end of the world to transpire.

Now, back to the internet world of those who follow gold. Hutch, who is an anti-goldbug on SI, predicted last year that the POG would hit $260.00 sometime this summer. It did. On the other hand, the goldbug theorists have not been proven right. They are now rationalizing away the failure of the predictions - e.g., the game plan changed, the COMEX numbers are inaccurate, etc. I accept some of these rationalizations, as I'm still here. But quite frankly, my patience and willingness to listen is wearing thin. The advocates of gold need something similar to Einstein's prediction if they are to have any credibility: A reasonably precise prediction, within a reasonably ascertainable timeframe, which proves to be true. It was not bad faith which caused some to latch onto FOA/Another's statement that the BIS would not allow the POG to fall below $280, but the need for a benchmark to assess the veracity of a theory.

I don't wish to be the skunk at the party, but this is how my brain is working right now. The time for proof is now upon us. If gold is true money and the theories are true, it and they must "walk the walk" soon, regardless of the alleged actions of the alleged manipulators.
canamami
Clarification of post#7646
I wish to clarify that I was not referring to the theories of FOA/Another in particular in post#7646 (and I have learned much from FOA/Another), but I merely wished to state that if gold has a future, some sign of this future must be revealed soon, or it will become prudent to start according weight to the arguments of gold's opponents. The continuing red downward arrows next to the POG, day after day, and the opportunity costs those arrows represent, cannot be ignored indefinitely.
Jade
The nasty little kicker in the BofE Gold sale.
Posted on the BoE site is the June 11 document that states the terms and conditions of the proposed sale.
The kicker quoted word for word "under this agreement, VAT can arise if physical control of Gold passes from a member of LBMA to a non-Member". Now I don't know the present VAT [value added tax on Gold], but if it is 10%, this Gold could very well cost you $300 an ounce if you're a non-member of the LBMA. A rather nice way to keep the actual possession of this Gold to LMBA members only. Further on it reads "The Finance Bill currently before Parliament contains provisions which, if enacted, will amend the VAT rules applicable to supplies of investment Gold. These amendments will not affect the VAT position before January 1, 2000." Now I read that as making it clear that you "will" pay this VAT if your not LBMA hell or high water.
Peter Asher
canamami
If you haven't already read my #7629 earlier today, take a look and then focus on the quote below from Steve's Gold Eagle forward, #7632..

>>2 � In actual fact, the POG we get from these charts is by NO MEANS representative of the
current market value of Gold since for the most part it is now being delivered from forward
contracts by producers in the 300-340 range. In reality the charted present value is completely
bogus and a market ploy. The future values we see are continuously being rolled forward
artificially.<<

This is a very astute summation of the paradox of the large short position of Gold and the nevertheless declining price. The empirical quantity/value relationship will make itself known when mines run out of profitable contacts to deliver to.
The Stranger
canamami
Having determined, last year, that a deflationary world was too frightening for central bankers to countenance, I anticipated that money growth was about to explode. The result would be economic recovery...but at a price. The price, of course, was to be inflation. I could have bought oil stocks, papers, base metals, etc., but, thinking I knew where the leverage was best, I put it all on gold.

I flatter myself that not many foresaw reinflation so early. Many don't see it yet. Yet, last month we had a CPI number so illuminating, I thought the debate resolved. Perhaps, after tomorrow, it will be.

Last Friday, the renowned economist Laurence Kudlow made the following observation, which I paraphrase from memory. "There is no inflation problem. If there were, gold would be rising, not falling. Ergo, one should not buy gold." Does this mean only if we buy gold will there be inflation, therefore let's not buy gold?

Had I merely distributed my funds among different inflation beneficiaries, read that "cyclicals", I would be riding high right now. As sometimes happens with so-called "top down" investing, I got the diagnosis right but I wrote the wrong prescription.

Or did I? Isn't it often thus with value investing? Anybody can tell you what is cheap. The trick is in knowing when the change is about to happen.

As for me, you couldn't make me short gold in a market where inflation, after long dormancy, is about to reincarnate. Not at these prices, anyway. But a gold bear has to believe that is exactly what people will be doing in the months to come.

I prefer to believe that we had a very good base built under gold before the BoE announcement. When that base was broken, weak hands just panicked. That's all. As none of this alters my view of what is coming, I do not expect to follow them.
canamami
Reply to The Stranger and Peter Asher
You win!

I had a temporary moment of weakness. I'm back on side. The goldbugs will eventually win, I just wish it were sooner than later.
The Stranger
canamami
Is it bad form to ask you to say something about who you are? I always enjoy reading your remarks and find myself wondering, 'Who IS this guy?'
Cavan Man
Jade's VAT
I believe it is 17.5%.
Cavan Man
Canamami
So many good minds weighing in at this FORUM including our gracious host can't be wrong indefinitely.
Cavan Man
Sir Stranger
You're right about inflation. I am paying close attention every time I take out my wallet. First reflation; next, higher rates; then economy tanks and the credit bubble bursts; deflation follows? We're in for some stormy weather indeed.
USAGOLD
canamami...Time is the x factor...
I remember reading in the newspaper about a year ago about a proof of one of Einstein's hypotheses that had just surfaced some sixty or more years after the great one had first theorized it.

We are dealing with socialists here who spend the entirety of their lives trying to push inevitability into next year. And they have the power to do it.....up to a point. In the case of gold, the advent of the derivative has served to greatly extend the market cycle.

As was the case in the development of the bomb, we did not know the extent of the explosion until critical mass was first achieved at Alamagordo. Then we knew. The situation is the same with modern markets, modern economics.

I recently wrote an article for one of the magazines where I compared the derivatives market to Einsteinian physics. With Newton we dealt with the simple stuff: What goes up most come down; for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction, etc. And for years we talked about markets in those terms. With the advent of derivatives, we are talking again about critical mass. The nucleus will only accept a certain number of electrons and then it bursts and you have a nuclear explosion. All is devastated -- in a single, one time event.

We have achieved that in terms of physics. We have not achieved that yet in terms of economics (markets) at least not in the West, though, as was the case at Alamagordo, we have a pretty good idea of what will happen. All seems innocent enough until the explosion occurs.

Then..............

Thanks canamami. Hope this starts the wheels turning as your post started mine.

canamami
Reply to the Stranger - Post# 7652
The Stranger,

Sure, I can relate a bit about myself. But first, I must say that I've always found your posts to be among the clearest and most "common sense, reality based" I've read on the Net, so I'm a little surprised you enjoy my posts, given that I'm a novice investor while you have worked in the financial field; your knowledge of these matters would far exceed mine. As for me, my undergraduate educational background was in Political Science (also, some general Arts like Intro Economics, History, Sociology) and I also studied French, which is useful for an English-Canadian. My professional training was in Law. I've spent most of my career in the public sector, though I did practice in the private sector early in my career. Much of my experience has been in international human rights law, though I am now what Americans would call an administrative law judge, in an unrelated field. Hence, I sometimes make crude errors when discussing the practicalities of investing, as I am learning by trial and error (with an emphasis on the error). This is why I get frustrated with the gold market, as I have been "banking" on a rally for quite some time, but the situation just keeps on deteriorating and deteriorating. Lately, I have decided that owning physical gold may be a good idea for Canadians, given that Quebec separatism could lead to the end of Canadian currency (and Canada), while the $US (the obvious hedge) would also be damaged by the breakup of Canada. Quite frankly, I believe gold ownership is not as good a bet for Americans, as I do not see the $US being disestablished - severely devalued yes, but not disestablished. Perhaps it would be useful for Forum members to share a bit about their backgrounds on occasion, to see where the different perspectives "come from", so to speak.


canamami
Reply to USAGOLD - post#7656
USAGOLD,

The comparison of the older market cycle to Newton's physics, and the modern derivative-influenced market to Einstein's physics, is brilliant, and greatly illuminates the situation. Imagine the spike in the POG when the force holding it down artifically is removed, or overawed.
PH in LA
VAT tax on gold in Euro-land
Re: VAT tax

I remember posting about the VAT in EC countries last fall. At that time new laws came into effect (I saw the reports in the Spanish press) abolishing the 16% VAT (IVA-Impuesto sobre el Valor A--adido) in order to equalize conditions for investment in gold in all EC countries. It was seen as a positive for gold at the time.

Don't know anything about the VAT in England, though. As for raising the POG for non-LBMA members, it seems like it was mentioned that the BOE auction was to be a semi-private affair restricted to LBMA members only.
USAGOLD
Canamami....Here's the article. I found it believe it or not.
Here's the original article from my home computer before the editor's cleaned it up and made me look like a writer. The ideas are here though. I think I have another version of this somewhere. If I find it I will post it. The graphs from Bob Prechter really make the point (unfortunately I can't post them) -- strong long term uptrends followed by a swan dive off the cliff straight down -- the essense of a mania resolved.
-----------

Derivative Delusions and the Madness of Crowds
by Michael J. Kosares

Anybody for a little cliff diving? Nearby (extreme right) see the charts recently held before CNBC-TV cameras by well-known market cycles theorist, Robert Prechter. The charts depict three historically pertinent manias including the current U.S. stock market madness. Also take a look at the graph that depicts one of the chief culprits fueling this delusion -- the derivatives explosion.
Now consider critical mass -- a phenomena defined as the amount of matter large enough to produce an explosive reaction. Bombard an atom with other particles and soon or later the atom cannot contain itself. The mass at that critical point in time, as Einstein predicted in his famous formulation, transforms to energy. This is the physics behind The Bomb. It can be applied to the markets as well. The derivative madness played out recently at Barings and Sumitomo suggests in microcosm what can occur to the markets as a whole when derivative critical mass is reached. These institutions fed derivative positions like an addiction, not because they wanted to, but because they had to or face certain market retribution. There came a time when the position could no longer be fed. Critical mass was achieved and their trading positions exploded in one-time, hyper-critical market events that nearly destroyed the institutions.
Is this what awaits financial institutions on a mass scale as a result of this derivative madness? Some analysts, like Prechter, believe it does. Just as a nuclear explosion in New Mexico mimics the same event only of greater magnitude in the stars, Barings and Sumitomo foreshadow explosions of greater magnitude for the markets as a whole. The lesson to be learned is the one shown in Prechter's charts. When critical mass is reached, the crash occurs quickly without warning.
Please take this short article for what it is -- a warning. History does have a nasty habit of repeating itself, both for good and bad. I have little doubt that there were those in Holland at the height of the Tulipmania who were saying that this was the end of the market cycle; that tulips would go up forever; that tulips represented a new historical paradigm. There were also those who snorted their contempt at such nonsense.
In the case of paper assets, the derivative effect has been to drive them ever higher even though the fundamentals cannot logically support the trend -- every bit the mania in Holland's tulips or the South Sea Bubble. In the case of gold, the derivative effect has been to drive it lower, even though fundamentals cannot support the trend -- a state of affairs we have commented on more than once in this publication. Common sense dictates that the former is about ready for a trip South and the latter a trip North. The trouble with all this, needless to say, is the timing. We do not know when critical mass will be achieved but if these charts contain a a fundamental lesson I would have to say it comes down to this: It is better to be a day early than a moment late. Once the diver went over the cliff, the fall was fast, furious and fatal. We continue to advise prudent diversification with gold as the antidote to the current stock market mania. Critical mass could be achieved at any time.
USAGOLD
Welcome.
I would like to welcome The Stranger back and say hello to all the new names I see on the board tonight. Welcome all. Thank you for your contributions. Special thanks to those who found their courage and posted for the first time and now you see how easy it is after all.
Tomcat
What is it about gold that we believe?

Canamami brought up some very interesting points. In particular, is there any evidence that this forum's gold paradigm is correct?

This got me to thinking about our golden paradigm. What is it about gold that we believe? Can it be clearly stated? I hope I am not being presumptuous but I would like to take a crack at stating what our belief is. Hopefully this could be expanded and refined by others more knowledgeable than myself. Here goes:

We hold that gold, through it's historical precedence, is a true medium of exchange as well as a medium for the accumulation and transfer of wealth. We further believe that in times of severe economic stress, the true exchange value of gold will come forth and will show and increase in value when express in fiat money terms. We hold that attacks to devalue gold will eventually fail and that, as holders of gold, we will, in the long run, preserve both our wealth and our ability to exchange gold for items and services of value.
The Stranger
cananami and Michael
cananami- Perhaps you recall a movie, years ago, starring Robert Redford and called "Three Days of the Condor". In it, Redford played a "reader", someone who spies on foreign enemies simply by reading everything that is printed in the pertinent countries and then synthesizing it into useful intelligence. Somehow, I figured that was you: single, fortyish and smart as hell.

Anyway, you have a much better grasp of the gold market than I do of administrative law, whatever that is. Perhaps, that is unfortunate. In a perverse way, I suspect most of us owe the extent of our knowledge about gold to how "well" we have done with it. Indeed, were it performing the magic we had expected, would we even need a forum?

Michael- While you were out, I sort of returned. After last month's CPI release, I thought the long wait was over for gold. Now, it seems, I may need to be here a while longer yet, sharing insights with these gentle knights.

Meanwhile, I think your atomic fission analogy is well-drawn and entirely apropos. Still, I couldn't help chuckling at how it reminded me of the nuclear winter currently gripping my portfolio.

Oh well, how clearly I remember the BUSINESSWEEK "Death of Equities" cover story, summer 1982. The Dow was at 800 (level with 1966, for crying out loud!). I was 5 years into being a stockbroker at Merrill Lynch, wondering what was to become of me. Then, today, the NY TIMES ran a piece on the death of gold. If only they would have put it on the cover.

And so it goes.
MOZ
Hello Forum
G'day from Australia and greetings to all forum participants.I have been following Bill Murphy's GATA since the beginning of this year and then Steve's post on Le Metropole Cafe made me aware of this forum.So far I feel like I have about 6 pieces in a 48 piece jigsaw.The facts I believe to be true are:the hedge funds are short massive amounts of gold,the gold price is being manipulated downwards(although I do not yet understand the precise relationship of the participants in this manipulation),and the US Fed and UK Tresury see gold as a threat and are at war with it.It is only recently ,upon reading Steve's post that I became aware of FOA/Another's posts and the concept of a currency war.I would like to thank them for taking the time to post on this forum and any questioning of their theories is just an attempt by me to gain a deeper understanding of the issues.In the Australian 11/03/99, Mr de Crespigny,exective chairman of Normandy Mining (Australia's largest gold mining company) predicted the failure of the recently established euro.He said no currency like it had succeeded before and that" when it fails it will be marvelous for gold".Has the forum considered this possibility?I know the US dollar has massive debt levels backing it,but still the vast majority of countries around the world prefer to conduct trade using US dollars.The euro on the other hand has yet to prove itself.It seems to me from this part of the world it has a long way to go to be considered a rival to the dollar.My question to the forum is,what would trigger this turn around in fortunes?If Wall Street crashed ,would that really prompt countries in the Asia-Pacific region and the Americas to swap to euros?Further,what would happen if Alan Greenspan manages to successfully bring the inflated values of the American stockmarket downwards without a 1929 type crash occuring?Finally if a stockmarket crash did occur between now and November 1999,when would gold bullion be at its lowest price?I have many more questions on related topics which I will save for the future,in the mean time if any forum participants can give me their views on these questions ,it would be much appreciated.Thanks Moz.
Gandalf the White
Welcome MOZ
Thanks for jumping into the discussion at the Tableround. If you would have time to read in the Archives, I think you would find lines of discussion of the Gold War having two sides that use position and power of words to assist their side in the WAR. The two sides are called the US$/IMF countries vs. the Euro/BIS positions. The March 11, '99 article by the head of Normandy Mining is just what would be expected from the script written in Hollywood. Please continue to advise us all of the thinkings from "downunder".
Thanks for joining us.
<;-)
MOZ
Gandalf the White
Thanks Gandalf,yes,I can see that,but what happens if the euro collapses and the US dollar survives,its still good for gold.Why do you believe the US dollar will collapse and not the euro?
Gandalf the White
MOZ's question
ok, here is my thoughts on the Euro. First, it is partially backed with gold valued (quarterly) at Spot as a portion of "Reserves". The Euro is not held by many non-Euro countries at this point in time, while the world is flooded with the US$ as the major reserve currency for most nations. The economy of the US has been fed by foreign investment in the paper notes and bonds and is presently in hypermode toward a potential collapse. Derivatives on the US bonds are causing hedge fund problems, while the Euro does not have this problem. This is why I feel that the Euro will challenge the US$ for Reserve status and be more valuable that the Dollar. Others can explain this far better than I, but it was I that opened my big mouth. I only hope that I have presented a straight story. Comments please!
<;-)
koan
silver
Comex silver stocks are on the verge of falling to new historical lows, 75 million oz, (just as Kaplan goes on holiday). And a post here, yesterday, I think, said what is left in Comex needs more refining. Could we be on the verge of seeing a breakout in silver on the upside with gold following? If anyone knows where to get the Comex stats it would sure be appreciated. I am on the verge of buying more long silver positions and wish I could see those warehouse figures.
MOZ
Dollar V Euro
It just seem to me ,that the euro is a weak currency,its not really accepted,unlike the US dollar, outside of Europe.If someone wants to purchase 10 container loads of cane furniture from Indonesia and import them into Australia,or Hong Kong,the deal is transacted in US dollars,not Australian dollars.Same goes for Australian mineral exports to the rest of the world.I would have thought that the euro,would be the weaker of the two currencies,because it is based on all those European countries that have never done anything except fight amoungst themselves comming together.Look at Kosova.I'm not saying I'm right I would just like a satisfactory explaination,to help peice this jigsaw puzzle together.
MOZ
Thanks Gandalf
Yes,I saw on Bill Murphy's site the debt levels of the large US banks and the amount of derivatives in the system,but has anyone seen the figures for the Europeans,I have'nt as yet,how do we know they are not as bad?Thanks for your responses Gandalf.
Aragorn III
Aristotle, I would be honored to "hear" this tale told in your fine "voice"
I have read with pleasure your Memorial day post in regard to our meetings and am confident that you would prove to be the better author in the telling. You have a fine memory, indeed!--you recall "serious buyers have always paid in full yesterday for delivery of Gold tomorrow" out of necessity. And even as the train must sometimes travel the indirect route (where there are rails to be found) to somehow and eventually "get there from here", the lonely pedestrian might SO EASILY travel the direct path that he questions the purpose (or even the necessity!) of these simple steps, and at the destination he even struggles to conceive the proper regard for such an easy journey. I say, just let him talk with the engineer when the train does complete its long course to arrive in a similar position on the adjacent tracks! My friend, you and I buy gold today because we CAN. I leave it to you to explain for the benefit of our fellow footmen how and why the engineer has departed northbound so that one day the train may reappear two tracks over from out of the south to be riding on golden rails. Further, I challenge you to provide this without use of such terms as gold loans or short sales, which likely mean something different to each reader. The course has largely been presented already at this Round Table, yet as you suggest, the questions inspired by gold's "happy hour prices" demonstrate the need to recapitulate in the manner which you are capable. I understand you to be quite busy these few days... so as time allows, good Sir!

got gold?
MOZ
Euro V Dollar
Thanks forum,I'm calling it a day ,its late in Australia.If anyone can shine some light on the questions I asked,I will check back in the morning.I know that when these current events becomes history,we will look back and see everything as clear as day and think why could'nt we see the picture we know now so clearly.
mike55
Aristotle
Aristotle -- I see that Aragorn has responded to your post #7598 of 6/14/99 with the utmost confidence in your expertise in explaining why the engineer does what he does. The footmen wait in eager anticipation of the tale, as your time will allow.

All aboard!!!

SteveH
Canamami
August gold now...$260.40.

I wish we could add credence to our thoughts vis-a-vis prediction. BUT, we are in a chess game with two major players and lots of roudy spectators who sometime move a piece during a sneeze or disturbance in the crowd and no one is looking at the board. Under these circumstances, each players awaits the other. Nothing more to do but wait, watch, and try to influence a few moves...haaaa...chew!

Because one can't predict the when doesn't mean the predictor or the predicted is wrong -- it merely points out the inability to control the other player and their affect on the game more than a few moves out. Here is the simplest logic as I see it of the end game:

Gold will die or gold will live. Gold will likely survive because at least 2.5002 billion people believe in gold's value as a currency influencer. Thus as a gutsy prediction, gold will remain a player.
The Stranger
Moz
Greetings. For reasons you have well explained, I doubt the Euro will ever ascend to a reserve or international trade status similar to that of the dollar. That will be just fine with me, as I consider the introduction of any possible dollar coequivalents as a greater threat to gold than to the dollar anyway.

As to a turnabout in the near term Dollar/Euro exchange rate: from my experience, there is no quicker way to humble oneself than to start predicting currency relationships. And what if they simply all go into different rates of decline anyway? What matter will exchange rates be then to a goldbug?

I would say, however, that notions of a dollar cataclysm, at this juncture, are unfounded. The U.S. economy is robust, and, while many sectors of the stock market are vastly overpriced, many others are not. Furthermore, there is nothing about current monetary policy or bond rates that would imply a collapse is imminent.


All- I suppose, with all my haranguing about inflation, I must comment on this morning's CPI. I won't make excuses. None of today's numbers support my views. However, the bond market, OPEC, recent rapid money creation, recent comments from Greenspan about productivity, recent rising import prices, etc., must amount to something. Monthly figures being notoriously erratic, I will choose patience for now. A far worse outcome, by the way, would have been for the numbers to be highly inflationary and for gold to fail to respond. That is exactly what happened last month. At least, this way, we get an opportunity to see how well gold holds its recent lows in the face of news which is negative. That may tell us more about the real health of this market anyway.
The Scot
NEEDED TUTORING
Gentlemen and Ladies,
Being a newcomer to this forum and to the "Gold Game" I have very much enjoyed the postings of those on this forum. I have tried in vain to understand all that is offered by this group. I have some very basic questions that I would appreciate your thoughts on. 1. As I understand it, the opinion of this group, for the BOE sell off, is to lower the value of the Pound to a more competative rate for Euro trading? 2. If the cost of mining Gold is about $220.00 - $ 240.00 worldwide, could we safely say that the base value of Gold would not, (under normal circumstances) fall below that cost. Please respond with your thoughts. Thankyou, The Scot
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: More Gauzy Rhetoric from Foggy Londontown
MARKET REPORT(6/16/99): Gold was down slightly in the early going with financial
markets featuring the euro taking another broadside and currencies across the board
dropping against the dollar. The pound continued its descent into currency irrelevance
shedding another nearly half cent against the dollar in this morning trade. Sterling has been
nearly a free fall since the Bank of England announced in early may that United Kingdom
would sell half of its gold reserve. The euro suffered similar indignities against the dollar
today descending to a new low. The markets were reacting to a seemingly benign consumer
price number ("unchanged" says the Labor Department) -- an outcome we expected here
after the big spike (.8%) last month.

Gold was quiet overseas last night. According to a Reuters London this morning "British
Treasury Minister Patricia Hewitt told parliament the 10 percent fall in price since May 7 in
reaction to the Treasury's plan to sell 415 tonnes of its gold reserves was 'somewhat
overdone.''' In one of the strangest contributions of twisted logic I have ever seen in the
public discourse on any political or economic subject, Hewitt went on to say that gold was a
valuable part of countries' reserve assets but the government had to minimize the risk to the
taxpayer of market fluctuations. "At the moment we are twice as exposed to movements in
the gold price as to movements in the value of the dollar,'' she said. "This is a simple
portfolio decision.''

An astonishing statement given the fact that it was her government's decision to sell gold
and depress the market, and no other factor, which elevated the risk of gold ownership to
British citizens. One wonders if she was able to keep a straight face when uttering those
words. We continue to hold that there is more to this than meets the eye and this kind of
hazy testimony only adds to the suspicions held by most gold advocates. For all the talk of
transparency by the British government, Hewitt's testimony before Parliament has all the
earmarkings of a cover-up. So what is really going on in foggy Londontown and within the
Blair government? Parliament, I should think, would want to know.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
SteveH
***Flash*** Armstrong says no conspiracy, just normal...
http://www.pei-intl.com/HMEFRAME.HTMmarket. This one needs to be thorougly analyzed. Queen's pawn to queen four.

"...Nonetheless, this does not rise to
the level of a grand conspiracy of monumental proportions intent upon
forcing a particular long-term directional trend. If the central banks sell
everything, they will have nothing left to prevent a bull market from
unfolding. It will take time before we can see the new light of day and a
shift in the economic prospects worldwide."
koan
Comex silver stocks
As of Monday Comex silver stocks were on the verge of falling to all time lows below 75 million oz. Furthermore, a poster on this site gave a another site where the commentaor said the stocks left in the Comex may need more refining. Kaplan who provides daily Comex silver numbers is gone for a week. There may be something brewing here with silver. Does anyone know where to get the warehouse stocks (FOX at Kitco use to give them). Looks like there may be a possibility of silver rising and then pulling up gold. Sure would like to see this weeks Comex action.
AEL
something brewing?
from gold eagle today:

POSSIBLE SERIOUS TROUBLE IN ASIA & the MIDDLE-EAST
(vronsky)
Jun 16, 11:28

Gentlemen:

Pls take this for what it is worth. I confess I do not follow closely
political events in Asia and the Middle-East. However, something has
converged this week at GOLD-EAGLE - which I feel meaningful to share
with you. Perhaps, some of you more up to date on what is going on in
those areas might glean some insights from the information.

Since Sunday night GOLD-EAGLE has received several emails from very
prominent organizations and personages from India, Pakistan and the
United Arab Emirates (Dubai), who have heretofore never contacted us.
All the emails had a common theme: What are the various sources for
buying bulion and gold coins in volume?

Needless to say during the the last two years GOLD-EAGLE has
sporatically received similar requests from many parts of the world.
But they never came together at the same time, and certainly not from
any particular area. Consequently, I find it unusal that all these
requests came within a four day period - and from a particular corner
of the world.

It would seem something is cooking. Any ideas?


Leigh
Islamic Dinar
Could the urgent requests for gold from the Middle East have something to do with the new Islamic dinar (the new Muslim monetary unit based on gold and silver coins)? I'm JUST GUESSING here. I believe there was supposed to be a meeting in late May to get everyone on board. More info can be found in the article section of Gold Eagle.
turbohawg
from Ron Paul's FreedomWatch
http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press99/pr061799.htmLegislation such as this could carry even more weight and relevance in times of economic turmoil ... for instance, consider that if one felt it necessary to transport his physical possessions of value to another location how easy it would be if they were discovered for authorities under today's laws to confiscate them with impunity.

FOR RELEASE:
June 17, 1999

Due Process and Property Rights Must Be Protected
Paul announces support of Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act


WASHINGTON, DC -- To restore due process and protect property rights, U.S. Rep. Ron Paul (R, TX) said today he is cosponsoring H.R. 1658, the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act, recently introduced by House Judiciary Committee Chairman Henry Hyde (R, IL). The legislation addresses the "gross abuses" of individual rights by law enforcement
agencies at every level, and will likely come for a vote on the House floor next week.

"The current system used in the seizure of private assets has become widely abused across our nation", said Dr. Paul, a long-time leader in Congress in the protection of individual's rights. "What started out as an attempt to curb large-scale crime and drug trafficking, has evolved into a corrupt system of intimidation. It is obvious that our current system fails to protect the holdings of minor offenders and innocent property owners from suspicious government law enforcement agents and their greedy hands. This legislation will restore the Bill of Rights'
Fourth and Fifth Amendment guarantees to innocent property owners and put an end to the widespread abuse."

H.R. 1658 would replace what has become a nightmarish situation for numerous Americans with just and equitable procedures. The allure of "easy money" for cash-strapped federal agencies has created a perverse incentive for agents to seize property and assets without regard for the
innocence of the owner. All too often, even if a person is innocent of the crimes of which they were suspected, they never recover their seized property, said Rep. Paul.

"It is not at all uncommon for an innocent individual, carrying or depositing a large amount of money, to have their cash confiscated because trace amounts of narcotics were detected. This, despite the fact FBI lab studies have shown that nearly all of our paper currency contains some traces of cocaine or other drugs on it", said Rep. Paul.
The Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act restores the doctrine of the presumption of innocence by placing the burden of proof directly on the federal government before forfeiture can occur, and it stops the practice of guilt by association. No longer will innocent property owners, divorced spouses, or parents of drug-dependent children be
subject to unreasonable search and seizures.

"Currently, all possessions that are in any way linked to an alleged drug crime are subject to seizure or forfeiture: automobiles, homes, bank account, and so forth, without the government even proving the property owner was actually guilty of anything."

The legislation also creates strict guidelines that require government agencies to notify individuals of the seizure within 60 days, and allows individuals up to 30 days after notification to appeal in district court for the immediate restoration thereof. Further, the bill creates a system of compensation, up to $50,000, for property damages and loss of interest on assets due to forfeiture.

Among the 57 House members Dr. Paul has joined in the bipartisan Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act are: U.S. Reps. Lamar Smith (R, TX), John Conyers, Jr. (D, MI), Philip Crane (R, IL), and Bob Barr (R, GA). Rep. Paul is encouraging his colleagues to support this important legislation.
beesting
Response to The Scot msg.#7676.
As one of Scottish decedent I thought it would be appropriate to give you my humble opinion on your 2 questions.
First question; "The BOE sell off has lowered the value of the Pound."

My opinion; Historically, every country that has sold CB Gold holdings in large amounts, has had a currency devaluation. The discussion at this forum is mostly speculation on why a country(England) would choose to rob it's citizens of purchasing power by devaluing the currency.
If I'm not mistaken another event occured at about the same time as the announced Gold sale by the BOE.
Scotland became, or is becoming Independant!!
That would put all revenues(from North Sea oil,Scotch Whiskey,etc.)into the economy of Scotland and under the control of the Central Bank of Scotland instead of the BOE.
Therefore also causing devaluation of the English Pound.
Fellow Ladies and Knights please correct me if I'm wrong about this, I live in the farrr Western Shore of the North Atlantic,not close to world financial action.

Second question; "If the cost of mining is $220-$240 could we safely say the value of Gold would not fall below that cost?"

Again my opinion;There are currently THREE or more Gold markets operating right now!
The first, is the retail physical Gold market-The price of Gold offered to the public in small amounts,being unwittingly controlled by the worldwide published spot price of Gold.
The second, is the worldwide SPOT price of Gold-This market is for bigger players in the Gold buying selling game and is currently way out of reason because it is a paper Gold mostly(futures contracts)market.Many here beleive this market contains paper contracts for Gold which cannot be covered.
The third Gold market is the market between the Gold Mines and the Bullion Banks(buyers of Gold in the ground) The largest mines have(on paper)figured a way to receive more per ounce for their unmined Gold thru the practice of "hedgeing". Please look thru archives posts of FOA,The Stranger,and others to get an understanding of how this works.
All three markets are interrelated, but MUCH different amounts are received and payed for Gold!! By the way I think mainland China also sets their own price for Gold,anybody out there know?
Here is some more speculation; If the price of Gold drops way below production costs and stays there(forced down by the paper Gold market)Bullion Banks,Governments,and other large players may claim ownership of the bankrupt mines.See ANOTHERS posts in archives on this.

Scot,to me this post seems long but I hope it helps.Thank you for your input..........beesting
T. Remital
THIS IS PROBABLY TRUE!!!
Date: Wed Jun 16 1999 10:33
farfel (@Repost: In Honor of the Clinton Government's Rigged CPI...) ID#341226:
Copyright � 1999 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Gentlemen...

Today is a good selling opportunity for stocks.

Departing White House aide was tired of helping Clinton "cook" the
numbers

Janet Yellin, President Clinton's chief in-house economic prognosticator
says she is leaving her post to return to academia, but other White House sources say she was tired of helping the White House "cook" economic reports to the public.

Yellin said in an interview she would step down as chair of the White
House Council of Economic Advisors to return to her post as a business
professor at the University of California Berkeley campus, accompanying
her economist husband as he returns to the university from a two-year
leave.

``It's purely a personal reason,'' Yellen said. The exact time of her
departure will depend on how soon her successor can take over.

But other White House sources say Yellin often disagreed with senior
Clinton political advisors on how to present economic forecasts to the
nation, feeling the numbers were often "cooked" to made the
administration look better.

"The irony is that the economy is booming and there was no need to add
any extra spin to the numbers," one White House aide said Tuesday. "But
the numbers and forecasts were often altered to make the situation
appear better than it was."

Yellin is the third Clinton economic official to leave in less than a
month. White House sources say their departures highlight a growing
weariness among Clinton appointees for the way their boss conducts the
business of the nation.

"You can only go along with the charade for so long," says one former
Clinton aide. "Sooner or later, you have to get out for your own
sanity."

Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, Clinton's most powerful economic
manager, announced his resignation last month, and Federal Reserve Vice
Chairwoman Alice Rivlin unexpectedly resigned last week. End.





Return to Kitco Homepage

------------------------------------------------------------------------
beesting
turbohawg #7682
It's about time!!!
The Scot
Beesting
Thank you so much for your responce to my questions. Your answer was so concise that even I could understand. A free Scotland! What a wonderful thought. William Wallace has finally won. Thank you, sincerely. The Scot
The Stranger
The Scot
As an addendum to my friend beesting's remarks re: gold selling below the cost of production, I might apprise you and others of remarks made just today by Robert Alder. Known in at least one quarter as the Boy Wonder of financial analysis, Alder reminds all concerned that, lower prices would do more than just shutter mines. They would also have the effect of making it cheaper for some mines to buy gold for delivery against prior forward sales rather than continue to mine it.

Yesterday, the NYTIMES shot an arrow into our hearts. Today, it was the Labor Department's turn. Under the circumstances, I would say both bullion and the XAU acquited themselves nicely. Before long, perhaps they will beam us all up, Scottie. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself).

T. Remital- Thanks, I needed that. Any word on where farfel got his information?
Quixote
Aristotle
hear! hear!

a challenge has been given you, with the promise of an excellent tale. i'm off to the club car for newcastles, don't start until i return. and mind you, spare none of the details!

Quixote
(No Subject)
make that "here! here!"

dang, i wish i'd been born smart instead of good looking.
SteveH
Armstrong
What did you all think of his comments? See previous post.

Steve
SteveH
What an education!
http://www.gold-eagle.com/cgi-bin/gn/get/forum.htmlfrom the above link.

Re: Armstrong on GATA & Gold
(GOLDFINGER) Jun 16, 17:52

Gentlemen,

I have just finished reading Martin Armstrong's article on "Gold Manipulation or Exaggeration". I agree with several points he has made, however, I would like to add a few comments and observations on what he had to say (or rather what he did not say), namely the following;

I agree with the following:

1.The "carry trade" in gold has been going on for several years.

2.Islam forbids charging interest on loans.

3.If you chased the Japanese and the Arabs out of gold (carry trade), nothing will change (in regards to the price of gold).

4.The governments of the world have a self interest in not returning to the gold standard. To return to such as standard would require the complete abandonment of virtually every social program introduced since WW II. I do not necessarily agree with this second statement.

5.Governments must return to some form of fixed exchange rate mechanism the volatility would escalate into disrupting the world economy as a whole.

6.The floating exchange rate system has allowed national debts to explode and that at some time in the future there must be reconciliation with reality.

7.The gold standard gave way because governments continued to increase their debts, but never readjusted the price of gold in proportion to the increase in money supply.

8.The IMF loan portfolio looks like a charity case with assets that will never be repaid.

9.Mr. Armstrong (I think) gave away his true feeling about the future price of gold in the article when he said (to paraphrase) "sell gold by the CB and IFM may be a major bearish factor short term, however, it most likely is going to provide a true free market in the long term".

10. Warren Buffet and not industrial consumption was responsible for the drain in silver inventories.

I disagree with the following:

1.Armstrong claims the "carry trade" is not responsible for the decline in the price of gold, however, his article never eludes to what is, in his opinion, responsible for the decline in the price of gold.

2.Holding gold without lending can be very costly. I partially agree with this statement, however, if it was that costly why doesn't Fort Knox just lease out all their gold and save themselves the expense of guarding it with the military.

3.Armstrong claims that by allowing the Euro to collapse, they are in effect devaluing their future obligations, which is one way of getting out of their debt mess. This is possible, but why would you need a new (unified) currency to accomplish the same objective that individual currencies are already making good progress towards. Also, why are the Germans upset with the loss in value of the Euro......because they are more fiscally responsible than their American counter parts.

4.Armstrong indicated it makes perfect sense for CB and the IMF to liquidate their gold assets. If this were true and the CBs and the IFM truly wanted to destroy gold as an asset why not flood they market and sell it all and use the proceeds to forgive the $200 billion dollars owed by heavily indebted third world countries (instead of the minuscule 300 tons proposed at an estimated value of $2.6 billion dollars). In any event, Mr. Armstrong has made the foregone conclusion that the Swiss and IMF sales are a done deal. These are far from done deals. The U.S. has a large enough share of the voting in the IMF to veto the auction. As for the Swiss, it is true the Cabinet has voted to de-couple the Franc from gold, however, a referendum will be held (probably sometime in the year 2000) that will allow the citizens of Switzerland to vote if they want to sell it and how to sell it if the majority vote yes. It was reported recently that an CEO of a major gold producer was reported to have been told by the President of Switzerland the chance of such a referendum going through has about a 1 in 3 chance of succeeding. Myself being a Swiss citizen I am very aware of the fact that very few referendums in the past, with regards to many other issues, are successfully passed. So, in reality the BOE sale appears to be the only done deal at this point.As for the EMU, they have approximately 12,917 tons (or 38.5%) verses the U.S.'s 8140 tons (24.3%) of reported worldwide CB reserves. If you include Switzerland, the U.K., and Sweden the reserves amount to 16,227 tons or 48.4% of total worldwide reported reserves (i.e. twice that of the U.S.). Mr. Trichet, the Governor of the Central Bank of France, argued the U.S., Germany, France, and Italy, will keep tjheir gold stock intact. Any CBs in the Euro-zone can not sell gold without the ECB's assent. Other than countries like Canada, Australia, and Argentina which have chosen to sell-off their gold, which are no longer factors in the game as they have little if any gold reserves remaining, it is obviously apparent that Mr. Armstrong is mis-guided in his conclusion about CBs desire to dispose of their gold.

Now Consider the Following

1.The gold carry trade has probably only been wide spread since 1980. The past 20 year has been the period when the majority of the gold mining companies have come into existence, Barrick is a prime example of a junior that started on the Vancouver Stock Exchange in 1980. I suspect many of the early gold leases/loan were to mining companies as they were the most likely clients capable of repaying their loans back to CBs in gold.......otherwise these would not be called loans or leases. I believe the gold "carry trade" reached a climax about �96 since the price of gold has been declining ever since to this day. I believe the "taste" for cheap loans started with the Yen "carry trade" which proceed the gold "carry trade".

2.I have lived and worked in the Middle East and also Malaysia. These people have a very different perception and value of gold than do people of the West. In addition, Islam does not particularly trust the West nor are they fond of dollars over gold. Gold in the Middle East is King in regards monetary security.

3.I think Armstrong is correct in stating the Arabs (if they ever participated in a gold "carry trade") and the Japanese are not even factors in the price of gold. Why? Because neither have enough reserves to make an impact on the price of "selling short". If the Arabs shorted gold it was with the intentions of acquiring it, not to get rid of it. Consider the following reported CB reserves (tons) estimates for Islam countries and Japan;Algeria: 174Iran: 151Saudi: 143Turkey: 117Libya: 112Indonesia: 96Kuwait: 79Egypt: 76Malaysia: 73Pakistan: 64Afghanistan: 30Syria: 26Jordan: 25UAE: 25Morocco: 22Grand Total: 1213 tonsThis amounts to a minuscule 3.6% of total world wide reported CB reserves. If you discount Iran and Libya due to political problems with the West this figure reduces to 2.8%. I believe the Islamic countries will never be allowed to obtain a significant position in gold as Islamic countries are perceived to be a threat to the West. The Arabs already have 60% of the proven oil reserves and the West does not like this, however, the West knows Islamic countries like gold.. In any event, I am confident the collective gold holdings of Islamic families hold more gold than their respective CBs and these families are not going to loan their gold to any one at a minuscule 1-2% like the CB of the West.As for Japan, they have a reported CB holding of 754 tons or 2.2% of total worldwide reserves. As for Japan's "feeling" towards gold the following should be kept in mind when on June 23rd, 1997, at Colombia University Japan's Prime Minister, Ryutaro Hashimoto, said (and I quote) "I hope the U.S. will engage in efforts and in cooperation to maintain exchange stability so we will not succumb to the temptation to sell off Treasury Bills and switch our funds to gold". So, why would Armstrong even mention the Arabs and Japanese in the "gold carry trade" if they are not even factors in the price of gold? I believe he speaks in half truths because he is not lying when he says they (Arabs and Japanese) are not factors, however, he did not even mention the real players in the gold carry trade....Western CBs and Financial Institutions like Goldman Sacks that are playing in derivatives. I have generally found when someone does not give me the full picture it is because they are hiding the truth. Armstrong used the Arabs and the Japanese as (bad) examples of why the gold "carry trade" is not responsible for the decline in the price of gold. Anyone that has studied statistics knows that you can only begin to draw valid conclusion if you have a sample large enough to be representative. If there is no manipulation going on with respect to the price of gold, why (for example) did the BOE announce the sale of their reserves coincidentally when the price of gold was beginning to up. Why did Armstrong make no mention of this, or why did he not even attempt a counter argument for this announcement. Why? Because he speaks in half truths.

4.Finally, when one is reading Armstrong's article keep the following in mind: Mr. Armstrong is probably the best paid economist in the U.S. He is an advisor to CBs, governments, major Financial Institutions, and multinational companies - worldwide. In may 14, 1997, a Gold-Forum member by the handle of Orpailleur of France attended a conference hosted by Mr. Armstrong in London sponsored by PEI. Mr. Armstrong had the following to say " gold is the most sensitive asset to change. Its minimum target is $1000-$1200/oz., which would simply bring it in line with other assets. The uncertainty factor could well cause it to soar to $4000-$5000/oz. In the case the market perceives a danger to the present currency system, a potential target for gold would be $10,000/oz. This danger could occur in 2003 at the top of the stock market bubble. Only a DOW greater than 10,000 would be a bubble". Well Mr. Armstrong, I think your timing was a little off! It is clear to me that Mr. Armstrong is probably a goldbug, but his change in position from 1997 illustrates he is a traitor! Mr. Armstrong has been bought and paid for, thus he is not to be trusted by us goldbugs!


koan
watching the wrong metal
It was reported by "uptick" on Kitco that silver Comex stocks have now dropped to 74.3 million oz. I cannot verify that, but if true, I believe, we can expect a speculation move which will further exacerbate the shortage - this is one story, all of us bugs should be watching. Remember there is no overhang with silver. Silver, in most cases is found on the surface and most easy deposits have been mined; and it is increasingly being consumed - not stored. Last, there are very few silver mines in the world thus very few good silver mining companies to choose from. This could be a monster story.
bmacd
koan
From what I hear, comex gold inventory is also historically low. To makes matters more interesting, apparently, what is left in there, is of very poor quality, i.e there's no gold of any value.
SteveH
August gold now...
$259.70.
Julia
ADD / Ritlin
http://www.mythical.net/addbooks2.htmlFollowing is a statement by the author Thom Hartman who presents a different approach to the ADD/Ritlin epidemic. His book is titled Attention Deficit Disorder: A Different Perception.
The new age look of his web site may not appeal to some but I think he does hold a piece of the puzzle in the ADD arena.
He says, " We view children with Attention Deficit Disorder not as� disabled or
disadvantaged, but as possessing a powerful talent to learn and succeed. Children with ADD think faster
and can perceive a wider range of stimuli than other children.
Although this is sometimes seen as a deficit
because they do not appear to focus on any
one task for long, they are, in fact able to
simultaneously perceive many things.

ADD children� are the "hunters" who are able
to take in continuous stimuli and react quickly
to changing circumstances. Non-ADD
children are the "farmers" who are patient,
methodical, and focused over long periods of
time. Unfortunately for ADD children,
traditional schools teach for the patient
"farmers", and not the alert and quick reacting
"hunters." The concept of the hunter in the
farmer's world was outlined in Thom
Hartmann's numerous books on ADD,
including the groundbreaking, Attention
Deficit Disorder: A Different Perception."


In it's introduction, Thom Hartman states, "This book is the first I know of to present the idea that ADD is not
always a disorder --but instead may be a trait of personality and metabolism; that ADD comes from a
specific evolutionary need in the history of humankind; that ADD can actually be an advantage (depending
on the circumstances); and that, through and understanding of the mechanism which led to ADD's
presence in our gene pool, we can recreate our schools and workplaces to not only accommodate ADD
individuals, but allow them to again become the powers behind the cultural, political, and scientific change
which they so often historically represented."
Tomcat
Julia: ADD / Ritlin
Great post Julia. Thanks.

The defintion of ADD is: A teachers inability to deal with a child who doesn't fit into the school's mold.

I have a child who, when he is working on something that doesn't interest him, has many of the ADD traits. But when working on something he is interested in, he is focused, intelligent, creative and a fast learner. He is also a gold bug! He started off panning for gold and now is building classifiers and a rocker box. He recently asked me, "How old you have to be to stake a claim?". He's ten.

If the pyschologists got their hands on him he would be put into some strange classification. In reality, he is just an entreprenurial kid who grows rapidly when doing his own thing. Thank God for home schooling.

The defintion of ADD is: A kid who doesn't fit into the school's mold.

USAGOLD
Contest
I have been very busy since my return and have not had time to review the Market Reports as yet. I will announce a winner tomorrow. Sorry for the delay. MK
SteveH
August gold now...
$260.40, up .80 or so.

Peter Asher
Tomcat, (Julia)
ADD in a nutshell!! -- I'll bet three quarters of us on the Forum would have been assigned this diagnoses if it had been around when we were kids. One problem however, is that sometimes there are real physical underlying disabilities such as undiagnosed hearing loss or vision situations, allergy malnutrition and home life distractions. All pounced on as ADD by this catchall fabrication.

I would add though, that there is more going on than just ADD. That is the leader in a family of contrived nonexistent maladies that are propagating like rabbits. This is the stuff of NWO, mind control and fortunes for the drug companies. Government funds are readily available for anyone who can qualify as being unable to afford psychotropics.

There is a 1978 Movie, "The Serpents Egg" by Ingmar Bergman, starring David Caradine. It takes place in "Wheelbarrow of money" Berlin. Of great interest to all gold-bugs, there are great shots of a dead horse on the street half torn away by food scavengers, crowded, expensive, exotic night clubs, while people are starving, and other depictions of an inflation ravaged city. But the main plot is of nameless people who disappear off the streets, having been taken for deadly mind control experiments.

When the plot becomes 'visible' (As a serpent does inside its egg as it approaches hatching) and the authorities are closing in, The lead scientist commits suicide by taking cyanide and struggling as long as he can, holding a mirror to watch himself die, in his final experiment.
Tomcat
Peter Asher

Someone one did a study of successful entrprenuers. The study revealed many traits needed to be in business for oneself and succeed. Traits like: stubborness in doing it your way, working at what you love (not what someone else thinks you should work on), rejection of the norm, willing to make waves to get the job done, fierce independence, etc.

This list of positive traits were given to teachers to see if they had anyone who fit the list of traits. All the teachers said the list of positive traits were the opposite of what was acceptabe in the classroom.

Many schools prepare sheep to become sheeple!
MOZ
Gold
Thanks Stranger,I will reply when I have more time.A comment relating to below.I think half the gold mines in Australia become uneconomic when the price of gold dips under$260.You would'nt want to be a geologist or goldminer in WA looking for work.Basically since the gold price has been below $300 hardly any new exploration has been undertaken'so there will be problem 5-7 years down the track.
Peter Asher
Tomcat, regarding schools
In 1981 we moved to a Long Island 'University Town', known for its 'superb' school district. Our oldest was 13 and very much into perusing her own quest for knowledge and creativity. She began staying home from school a lot, mostly writing along with reading and some painting, the school of course, was aghast that we actually condoned this. They were putting her in the LD special Ed. class and the big parent/guidance counselor conference took place. Robin laid out in great detail all the beneficial educational activities her daughter was engaged in, and the counselor actually came to understand the truth of it all.

At which point she said, "You don't understand Mrs. Asher, we are in the business of raising taxpayers"!!

dollissy
Gold
http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/Goodmorning forum and greetings from Australia. I like Moz thoroughly enjoy the forum and the outstanding contributions from all. Now that silver may have a part to play in the scheme of things does anyone wish to have a guess as to when the POG will bounce. Looking forward to your replies.

Also, thought you might find this story which appeared in our national newspaper recently amusing -

Is this a true story? A merchant banker was on holidays on the coast of Mexico when he noticed a local fisherman reeling in the yellow fin tuna.
"What do you do with all these fish," asked the merchant banker.
"I take them home to my village, have a siesta with my wife, drink vino and play guitar with my amigos," said the fisherman.
"Why don't you spend more time out there, catch more fish and buy yourself a bigger boat?" asked the Harvard MBA.
"Why?" shrugged the fisherman.
"So you can use the proceeds to buy a fleet of boats," said the banker.
"Then what?" said the fisherman.
"Then you sell directly to the processor and eventually you set up your own cannery, of cours," said the New Yorker.
"And then?"
"You move to Mexico City, then LA, and eventually New York where you run the expanded enterprise," said the banker.
"How long will that take?" asked the fisherman.
"Fifteen to twenty years. Then, at the right time, you float the company on the NYSE. You'll make millions," said the banker, gleaming.
"Millions? But then what?"
"Then you can retire, move to a small coastal village, fish a little. drink vino and play guitar with you amigos"
SteveH
August gold at ...
$260.90 now, asking $261.00.

Gold divistiture: moving large quantities of gold from a few hands into many.

Y2K
Leasing
Futures
Leigh
Comex Warehouse
Quick question (please forgive my ignorance): I ordered some Philharmonics last week. Does the gold used to make them come from the Comex warehouse mentioned yesterday? What if I had ordered Eagles; would they be made from that gold? Thank you.
The Scot
Leigh
Your question on the source of Gold for coins, I noticed on the Monex page, they state that all US Gold Eagles are produced from Gold mined in the US. I don't know about other countries. The Scot
Canuck
Tutoring required re: 'The Scot '#7696
I believe I am in the same boat as our friend 'The Scot'.
I woke up one day, last fall, and decided that with the market turbulence and Y2K on the horizon I had better
become a little more diverse with my nestegg. It was that day I thought that when ,not if, all "H" breaks out gold
is going to move. I bought into a 'precious metal' fund,
shortly aferward found this awesome forum, and began my
education. I feel many are in a similiar position as myself. I read this forum daily, enjoy all posting but I
must say that close to half of the info. is over my head.
Is is possible for 'USAGOLD' to have a link to definitions and acronyms?

I have two questions, please bear with me. I come from
a physics/chemistry world, finance and accounting are not
my major.

1) If one 'mixes' water with carbon dioxide, you get
sugar and oxygen. The mixture is always perfectly
accountable. If one throws a ball over a tall
building, energy is transferred from your arm/hand
to momentum to heat. Nothing is lost. In this
example I am illustating that in a physical world
nothing is lost and all reactions are accountable.

I love the phase that gold 'is no one's liability'.
It has (or at least should have) a identical value
wherever it it held on this planet. Albeit true
that I would receive a value in currency 'x' but
it seems to me that if the value changes then the
currency has changed not the nugget of gold. The
nugget of gold is still the same in all physical
characteristics. It might be safe to say that a
loaf of bread is analogous to gold in this regard
because a loaf of bread will feed a man for a day
and if its 'value' changes then I am positive that
the currency has changed because a loaf of bread
is a loaf of bread. (Sorry for the lengthy and
rudimentary pre-amble, I think I am doing this for
my own benefit) Let us suppose that gold is 'all
the loaves of bread' in the world. If the value of
gold moves from $290US to $250US to $260US per
once is it safe to say that value of the US dollar
is changing as per my previous argument? An once
of gold is an once of gold. If the value of gold
is '1000 coin X' today and '1200 coin X'
yesterday has currency 'coin X' changed? If an
once of gold has a flatline then we now can form
a relationship between a US dollar and the 'coin
X', can we not? Therefore all currencies can be
compared to each other using this model, given that
an once of gold is an once of gold (loaf of bread)
can we not? A dollar and a euro and a yen will
forever change in value in terms of a loaf of bread
and with each other given that there is a flatline
to judge it by. Is this true or is there something
that I am misunderstanding about the 'fixed' value
of gold? Does gold float around a 'fixed' asset? Is
the 'flatline' being replaced and the entire world
debating this replacement?

2) I work in the Y2K field. My office, like many others
has hired several people to assist in this huge
endeavour. When this project is completed I see
multitudes of unemployed people. The issue of Y2K
can and will be fiercely debated over the next few
months but my question today is, does anyone foresee
an increase of unemployment as I see it and will this
have an impact on finances/markets?

Thanks.
Mulpa
Backdoor listings of mining companies
This is my first post so please forgive if it is of no interest. In Australia, there is a growing trend of failed publicly listed gold miners to reincarnate themselves as high-tech companies - usually in internet, telco or biotech fields.
With the aid of stockbroking firms, these miners suspend trading and then use the shell company to enable high-tech hot shots gain back door listings.
I was recently at a meeting organised by one of the stock broking firms specialising in this area. They informed me that a growing number of gold producers were attempting to go this route as the POG had dropped below the level of affordable operation for most producers.
Does anyone know if there is a similar trend in US, Canada, South Africa, etc?
The Scot
LEIGH
I noticed on the Monex page, they state that all US Gold Eagles are produced from Gold mined in the US. I don't know about other country's coins. The Scot
The Scot
CANUCK #7707
I too think in the physical realm. Gold must have a "base" value, and to me, that would be the cost to "Mine" or "collect" it from is natural source. Today I believe that cost averages around $240.00 If any item is valued above its cost to produce, then that factor would have to be "demand" over "supply". Gentlemen, have I over-simplified a complex subject? The Scot
Tomcat
Peter Asher: Our Children, Their Gold

"You don't understand Mrs. Asher, we are in the business of raising taxpayers"!!

If that doesn't say it all!

If you think about it. The classroom is an ideal place to get someone used to a cubicle and prepare him/her to be an employee; especially one that doesn't question authority, that does his daily whatever, goes home, mows the grass, and would never question the value of fiat money.

Peter, this is why we are not on a gold standard. To tell our children gold in valuable and expect them to follow our advice is folly. The key is a thorough education in the fiat money system coupled with a background in entreprenuership, independence, skepticism, and courage!:

Be sovereign. Go gold!
SteveH
none
stockman@megahits.comThis note was from a newsletter put out by Leroy Stockman called Stockman's Forum. The response is mine. Mulpa, it responds to your thoughts too.

For Leigh, Comex stocks I thought were for contracts upon which you took delivery, so it is only for Comex contract deliveries.

From: Cradock Subject: Gold part 1/2

Subject: Drifter on Gold -pt 1/2

LeRoy:

Drifter wrote about the decline in gold price, seeking opinion and guidance on the future of the gold stocks that he owns, and wondering if he should dump, buy physical gold, or buy more. Understanding the fundamentals of the gold market is critical here, since I've said previously that in our entire lives (until maybe five years ago) Central Banks have always been net buyers of gold, not net sellers. Consequently, while the industrial market has been in equilibrium with an equal number of buyers and sellers, the market has been kept strong by the continued purchasing of physical gold by government central banks, and the price has been driven higher.

In recent years governments have been seen to be net sellers, and while five years ago many writers published articles about government conspiracies (I don't take those types of articles seriously) about forcing down the price of gold as part of an anti-inflation effort, it is evident today that they were correct. There has been a conspiracy of sorts by governments to force down the price of gold and to totally demonetarize their currencies by eliminating all basis to gold.

Today the United States dollar is king around the world, and the stability of the dollar is sought by nations everywhere. I noticed when Australia sold 70% of its gold holding some two years ago at US$330 and ounce they invested the proceeds in Yen, US dollars, and Deutchmarks, stating that Australia would earn $300 million in earnings on those holdings whereas the gold in the vaults was earning nothing. It seems Australia's action was wise, since gold has dropped precipitously since then.

We have seen Britain, Argentina, Switzerland, and other countries that haven't even announced, selling physical gold. They seem to have interest only in liquidation, not in maintaining a value. When we were younger it was the policy of central banks to stabilize their currencies by maintaining gold. In fact, the more gold that they had, and the higher the price of gold became, the more stable and the more convertible their currencies became. Anytime they needed a little cash, they just swapped gold for dollars, and the system lived on.

Today the governments that matter do not seem to need that special stability - and prefer instead to maintain baskets of currencies and international loans and credit agreements to sustain the convertibility of their currencies. Consequently, they don't need gold.

While I have no statistic to support a theory that most gold purchased by governments was at the old US$32 an ounce price, it seems a reasonable assumption, and consequently there would seem to be little reason for governments to be reluctant to sell. After all, they are in profit if they average their purchase prices. Unlike simple investors like ourselves, governments are only interested in moderating inflation and maintaining convertibility of their currencies. For this they seem to no longer need gold. What does the future hold for Drifter? It's bleak, I fear. My prediction is that the gold price has a way to go - as I said last year.

The gold price leads the metals complex still, and if the price of gold goes down, it pressures all metals to some degree. Certainly if gold were to rise in price it would encourage inflation amongst all metals prices, and if governments act to suppress the gold price it certainly has a negative effect on metals prices, and a limiting impact on inflation. Certainly it suppresses speculation in gold and precious metals, although the financial impact on some banks which had big gold loans is yet to be felt.

The gold explorers have been hammered to the point where they mostly trade at cash backing or thereabouts, and they would be more responsible to use their cash for profit making endeavors and step aside from gold pursuits - let's face it, at this gold price the odds are that they won't make any money even if they do find something.

Should Drifter sell? At this point most investors have been hammered so much they are using their gold shares for wallpaper. I'd be more inclined to suggest to Drifter that he write to each company president and recommend that the companies change direction into other cash flow pursuits. Dot Com issuers are doing well these days, and several gold explorers have already changed direction. Should Drifter's companies change, he might have a windfall, so, no Drifter, don't sell.

The best example I know is Canadian Mining which became Axia Netmedia- the little gold explorer didn't do anything spectacular as a gold company, so it became an internet company and is now trading around C$6.50, an increase of thirteen times, and with sales of C$40 million plus, it may be cheap at this price.

Buying physical gold is not a profit making opportunity since other investments will likely outperform gold either way from here - real estate is predictable and leverageable, for example, and probably is better than physical gold.

The gold stocks are too beaten up to sell, and you wouldn't want to buy them anyway unless their price would rise, and that will happen only if they change direction - thus my suggestion that Drifter write to each company and support a change of direction.

Cradock

Response:

Leroy,

I found Cradock's post (see below for the a snippet) to be well written and informative. I do have a few comments regarding his last paragraphs.

Cradock -- "Buying physical gold is not a profit making opportunity since other investments will likely outperform gold either way from here - real estate is predictable and leverageable, for example, and probably is better than physical gold.

The gold stocks are too beaten up to sell, and you wouldn't want to buy them anyway unless their price would rise, and that will happen only if they change direction - thus my suggestion that Drifter write to each company and support a change of direction."

Mr. Cradock as do many other gold analysts seem to ignore the potential impact of a 6,000 to 14,000 ton (who knows what it is really?) short position overhanging the gold market and the dual nature of gold trading, to wit: gold is traded in paper and that the price is at an all time low; gold is physically traded and physical demand is at an all time high. In my opinion, this spells opportunity. We have the mix necessary to see the mother of short squeezes. Further because gold is trading at a 20-year low, all wealthy contrarion investors would tell you emphatically, buy at the bottom, buy when no one else wants it.

The Internet stock craze and it would appear the real estate market craze appears to me to be overrated much like the Tulip Mania in the 1700's where one tulip bulb would buy the equivalent of a home or at least a healthy downpayment. In the short term the move of some juniors to become dot coms (.com) may be a great ploy, but the fundamental business of a gold exploration company is to find gold.

Mr. Cradock also seems to be unaware or chooses to ignore the currency war currently taking place that very well could trigger the short squeeze in gold. That is, the Euro is vying for reserve currency status. Several European Central Bank figures have openly stated this is a possible use of the Euro. Were this to happen, many US dollars would be needing a home, as reserve currencies all compete for market share. Printing excess dollars may keep us and others flush in dollars for world-wide trade but it is the same as issuing more shares when a stock is popular. When those shares or dollars aren't needed as reserves they go onto the market at lower prices until someone takes them in.

Some internet gold pundits believe that oil may someday be only available if paid for in Euros. This too would cement the Euro as a reserve currency. So even though the Euro doesn't hold the title, the mere fact it contends puts pressure on the dollar. Could this be the reason the long-bond yield crossed the 6.00% threshold?

Further, Mr. Cradock doesn't even mention hedge funds and the gold-carry trade. It is now a widely-accepted and establish practice by large gold mining companies and bullion banks to borrow Central Bank gold who in turn sell it and invest it in higher interest bearing assets. This is what has led to the large gold short position mentioned above.

Another consideration is that over 2.5 billion people still believe in gold as a form of currency or wealth. So even though the dollar may be king for now, more and more countries are finding the exported debt of the dollar to be less desirable than gold being no persons debt. As such we continue to see a grass root movement away from US denominated debt towards gold stockpiling and gold divestiture.

What is gold divestiture? Putting gold into more hands world-wide. The Central Bank leasing of gold and the gold futures markets and Y2K have all contributed to spreading gold into stronger hands worldwide. Gold is no longer the exclusive domain of Central Banks: it is now a pervasive metal whose ownership is 25% in Central Bank hands and 75% in peoples hands. What this means, of course, is people who own this gold won't accept gold as an archaic form of wealth rather they are embracing the notion that any currency or system of finance that support gold is better than a system that supports debt. We see this in India's importation of copious amounts of gold. And don't forget that even though Mr. Cradock says CB's are selling gold, they must be selling to a very willing buyer (perhaps the stronger hands above).

So, I applaud Mr.Cradocks' conclusion that people shouldn't sell beat up gold stocks. I believe his reason are slightly off course. I believe strongly that the current gold market is a powder keg opportunity much like the gold market was in 1979 just before gold went from $174 to $800 plus. Except in this case, we have the potential to go from $259.50 to $10,000 plus. When this gold airplane takes off, I believe it is best to already be onboard, tickets in hand. It may not even taxi before lifting off.

SteveH



Julia
Tomcat, Peter Asher
I agree with you both whole heartedly!!

Our son's experience in public school was less than desirable shall we say. In the summer before his second grade we had his hearing tested by a non-profit organization in Utah that measured his auditory descrimination from a tape of his voice while he read and talked (a test never required in public school) It is a test that measures how well the auditory part of his brain learned sounds. It is not a hearing test like they require for public school.

They sent back the results on what looked like a sheet of music. On it they showed the "notes" that he spoke on the tape. Well , it was easy to see that he heard way too many low notes and too many high notes and NOTHING in the note of "F" in the middle.

I learned that this audio descrimination problem is caused from learning language that is garbled through the fluid in a child's ears when they have ear infections.

I got a second opinion from an orthodox ears, nose and throat American Medical Association MD who confirmed that our son indeed would be lucky to understand 40% of what the teacher was saying. That convinced me to homeschool our son.

The treatment was ten days of one hour sessions of listening to music that had been tailored to fit our son's particular descrimnation problem where notes he heard too much of were decreased and the ones he heard too little of were increased. All of this was done with classical CD's or particularly well balanced contemporary music like some of Amy Grants's earlier pieces. They have CD's that can be administered in the home now.

After the 10 days I took him back to the MD and had him retested there. The doc came back shaking his head. He said, "Your son's audio descrimination is in the normal range now." This was approximately 14 days after he had seen our son the first time. But ofcourse he was not interested in finding out more so other children could be treated this way even though all he had to offer was a to put a microphone on the teacher and a hearing aid on our son!!!

My brother-in-law is the juvenile judge in our county and he is finding that a child's inability to descriminate sounds is a direct factor in the behavior of the children that come before him.

Homeschool has been wonderful for our son who demonstrates the very characteristics you described in your post, Tomcat.

Thanks to both of you. Julia
Julia
Tomcat , All
We are planning trips with our son and would like to plan a gold-panning adventure. Could you tell me how to go about finding out how to do that?
Thanks. Julia
SteveH
excerpt from English link below
Gold Sales
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Betts.]


9.33 am


Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle): I am glad to have the opportunity to initiate a debate on the proposed sale by the Bank of England of more than half of this country's gold reserves. That decision was announced by the Treasury on 7 May and has been widely and critically discussed in the financial press, but the Government have been strangely reluctant to defend it or explain it in any detail to the House.

I should start by making it clear that I have no personal financial interest in the value of gold. I have never purchased any gold bullion, gold sovereigns or shares in any gold mining company for myself, and I have no connection with any mining company or any part of the jewellery trade. However, I have always taken a keen academic interest in the economic role of gold, which has been of importance in every society in recorded history.

In the 1980s, in my capacity as a stockbroker, I was required for some years to manage a gold bullion fund, valued at many hundreds of millions of dollars, for the previous Sultan of Brunei, Sir Omar Saifuddin. I was therefore able to add practical knowledge of the gold bullion market to my academic and political studies of it.

I regard the decision to sell 415 of the 715 tonnes of our gold reserves as a reckless act, which goes against Britain's national interest. The sale of that crucial element of the United Kingdom's reserve assets will weaken our scope to operate independently, reduce our influence in international financial institutions and diminish the United Kingdom as a world financial power.

I shall briefly set out eight of my main reasons for opposing the decision. Later in my speech, I shall expand on some of those and add a few more. First, a move such as the one announced on 7 May was always likely to destabilise the gold price, as Britain is a leading G7 country whose example is likely to influence other countries and because it was not expected to sell gold. Market sentiment has become overwhelmingly negative and the price has collapsed from $287 per fine ounce immediately before the announcement to $259 at the fix yesterday--a fall of 10 per cent. That has reduced the value of our gold reserves in a little over a month by about $650 million from $6.5 billion to $5.85 billion at current prices. The Chancellor's announcement has so far cost this country's taxpayers over �400 million, which is more than the cost to us of the Kosovo war.

16 Jun 1999 : Column 308

Secondly, the decision reduces our monetary independence. For a country to hold gold is always and everywhere seen as an affirmation of independence and monetary sovereignty. We are told that the decision is not connected with preparations for joining the euro, but if we were to join--the Treasury has said that 40 per cent. of the proceeds from those gold sales will be invested in the euro--and if the euro were then to collapse or we were obliged to leave in the future, the absence of significant gold reserves would make it much more difficult to establish the credibility of any new currency that we had to set up.

Thirdly, the decision smacks of short-termism. In their foreign reserve policy, Governments and central banks are supposed to act in the long-term interests of their country. It is true that on a short-term view, gold has not performed well purely as an investment in the past 20 years, but that reflects mainly the success, which is possibly temporary, of central banks in controlling inflation. No Government can be sure that price stability will endure for ever.

Fourthly, the decision is a threat to the London gold market because it reduces the Bank's ability to act as what is known as a swing lender to the market. Many market participants believe that after the sales have been completed, the Bank will not have enough gold to fulfil its function as a swing lender and so retain the centre of the world gold market in London.

Fifthly, about 20 per cent. of the proceeds are to be invested in yen--so the Treasury tells us. Yet, by lending gold we could earn a better return, as the rate of interest on gold is higher than that on yen investments. I have already mentioned that 40 per cent. is to be invested in euros, yet we hear that the Netherlands is already taking steps to build up its foreign reserves to protect the guilder if the euro were to collapse.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: Rumors of Mid East Buying? What Do They Reveal about the Current Gold Market?
MARKET REPORT(6/17/99): Gold was level in the early going in New York after a
slow night overseas with most markets attempting to assess Alan Greenspan's warning of a
"pre-emptive" strike presumably against inflation. Translation: Watch out for a surprise
interest rate hike.

In gold news today, Homestake CEO Jack Thompson said that gold lending is about to end
because central banks are simply running out of metal to lend. (I would add to this
viewpoint the likelihood that gold lenders will begin to wonder whether or not they are
going to get their metal back if these market conditions continue.) He says gold is close to a
bottom because demand remains robust.

Thompson's Homestake mine in South Dakota is now running at a cash cost near the
current price, according to a Bridge News report this morning. Though Homestake is not
going to close down its flagship mine, it shows how close the current price is to what it
takes to get it out of the ground. One commentator recently pointed out that at these prices
and lower it would be more economical for the mining companies to buy the metal in the
open market to meet their hedge contracts rather than going to the trouble of mining,
milling, refining, marketing etc. A contact and mining expert close to USAGOLD told us
that it would be unlikely for the top mining companies to close down their best producers,
however, they would stop selling the metal and begin to cut expenses. He envisioned that
occurring within a 30 day period if prospects did not improve.

For the most part, the gold market seems to be on hold in anticipation of the Bank of
England sale though I think the placid calm could be broken without warning. These calm
markets usually cultivate surprises. We will see what happens this time around. Rhona
O'Connell of THoare offers this interesting overview:

"Gold continues to meet selling in Asian hours as hedge books are restructured but overall
trading remains muted in the face of continued weak sentiment. The run up to the UK
auction continues to dominate and while the market's short position is still sizable there is
little immediate chance of a rally," said Rhona O'Connell, analyst at T Hoare and Co.

"The shifts in open interest over the approach to the auctions will be instructive. Most of the
market expects the whole thing to pass off smoothly, probably with the metal remaining
"off market"--staying within the official sector--but the impact on sentiment has already
been quite devastating enough," she added.

The key words in that quote are "the metal remaining 'off-market'." Once the market fully
internalizes that this metal is not going to add to the physical supply we could start back up
again. That could happen anytime.

We can vouch for reports of buyers in the Mid-East looking for substantial volumes of
physical gold. We can't say whether behind it all there are real buyers, or if this another one
of those attempts to jolt the market, but the feelers are out. One thing I have always
wondered about these "feelers" is why a buyer of that magnitude would not simply place an
order through the London market or on the COMEX and take delivery.

The incentive to go outside normal channels cannot be lower prices because you are going
to pay more not less by going outside London or New York. So what's the real reason for
this? I reduce to it to one of two possibilities:

Either the buyers are not for real and this is just an attempt to spread rumors that will pick
up the market, or there is not enough physical metal around to satisfy the orders and
London and New York have become paper markets only for the most part totally incapable
of meeting real demand. When you look at LBMA daily turnover of a little over 1000 tons
per day, you realize that this could not possibly be physical metal. But just how much of it
is physical and how much paper? I would say that beyond gold lending there is very little
physical reaching the market. The remarks by Homestake's Thompson are well taken. What
central banker would be foolish enough to lend gold out at 1% and at a price that will put
20% of the world mines out of business.? To me, that's the very definition of a risky loan.

I will add one more risky and unprovable theory to the mix and then depart for the day:

Is it possible that the put option strategies in the gold market both in New York and London
are not intended to make those players a profit? Could it be that there sole function is to
keep the price of gold down and protect the sanctified gold carry trade? Before you dismiss
that theory entirely, consider whether or not these short sales are the real reason for the
huge volumes in both the public COMEX and the secretive over the counter markets. We
already know that in a practical sense, it is when a major Wall Street trading firm enters the
gold market aggressively on the short side that the price is actually moved. In practice it
wasn't really BOE that caused the price to go down (they did nothing but make an
announcement), it was a few highly visible massive trades by major financial houses on
Wall Street that did the dirty deed. In other words, it could be that those shorting the market
are content to let those options run out worthless while justifying such a strategy as a cost
of doing business -- all in homage to the gold carry trade.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
The Stranger
SteveH
I don't know how you always seem to find this stuff, Steve, but thanks for the House of Commons piece. It is reassuring to discover that the BoE is not fooling EVERYONE over there. I do not expect the gold sales to happen in the manner or to the extent that has been announced. In fact, it seems asinine to me that any sales at all should have to be discussed.

Somebody asked whether the BoE's decision might have been motivated by the strength of the Pound against the Euro. I think it was, at least in part. But talk about "short termism".
Gandalf the White
Julia's medical info.
Thank you Julia for sharing your son's hearing solution! My number one grandson also had a similar experience and crys from sounds of fire-engine sirens miles away that takes me much longer to finally even hear. You have given me a GOLDEN lead to possibly take care of this matter. See, you have now repayed me in full for my sharing thoughts with you. One has got to love this sharing website !!
--
My observations of the actions of Gold during yesterday's reactions to the "cooked" inflation numbers are: 1) neither Spot the Dog; or "GC9Q" were hurt as badly as they have been hurt before, AND the reaction of the Stock Indexes was far out of proportion to the news. Things are getting real fishy smelling, but the Hobbits are each getting their walking coins at prices not seen for two decades and are rejoycing for the opportunity.
<;-)
Tomcat
Julia

Julia, thank you for your story about your son. It all boils down to the fact that we, the parents, have the responsibility to get our children rolling and winning in life.

As for a gold panning vacation, it depends a bit on where you go. If you are headed west, consider northern CA. The location you chose makes all the difference. There are mom and pop type businesses that will let you pan on their property. They will outfit you and get you going Since I don't know exactly what you need, search the internet using these words: gold, gold panning, concentrator, prospecting, gold maps, etc.
ET
Canuck

Hey Beesting and AEL - thanks for your kind words a few days back. Sorry for the tardy response but I'm without access most of the week due to travel commitments.

Hey Canuck - welcome to the forum. I'll take a crack at your questions. You wrote;

'Does gold float around a 'fixed' asset? Is
the 'flatline' being replaced and the entire world
debating this replacement?'

I believe the proper context would be gold is a relatively fixed (in total amount) real asset and is comparable to other real assets. If gold is used as a medium of exchange, other real assets will float around gold according to their own supply and demand features. For example, a corn harvest would have a certain value in gold but it's overall value would fluctuate according to it's current supply versus it's current demand. Gold's value remains unchanged but it's price in corn may vary from year to year.

Some in the world have for many years foisted fiat proxies for gold as money and of course continue to this day. The important thing to remember is that all these forms of 'money' are not real assets and therefore are not relevant when comparisons are made between two or more real assets. A promise to pay is not equivalent to a tangible asset and any comparisons therefore are subjective in nature.

You wrote;

'I work in the Y2K field. My office, like many others
has hired several people to assist in this huge
endeavour. When this project is completed I see
multitudes of unemployed people. The issue of Y2K
can and will be fiercely debated over the next few
months but my question today is, does anyone foresee
an increase of unemployment as I see it and will this
have an impact on finances/markets?'

I also have been following the y2k issue for some time. Although I would agree that some unemployment is on the horizon, I believe it's cause will come from the effects of y2k and financial bubble deflation. Our current financial/monetary system is based on debt and will only remain stable if the loans that underly the system are perceived to be serviceable. The problem today is that the money to service these debts must be created via bank lending at at least the rate in which these loans become due. The last few years this has become increasingly difficult to achieve. Some economists throughout history have questioned whether debt can be a basis for a currency system because of this inherent flaw in the theory. If you have read The Stranger's views, he believes the creators of credit (fiat money) will be able to 'reflate' the system in times of crisis and return the system to stability but not without a further debasement of the currency. Hence his outlook of more inflation. Although I agree with his conclusion in terms of inflation, I tend to disagree with his conclusion that this can be done over and over without a collapse sometime in the future. I do agree that the fiat monetary authorities have been successful so far but have never been confronted with a problem such as y2k.

I believe y2k will cause a loss in business efficiency thus bringing loan serviceability into question. If profits decline due to lack of demand, lack of supply, or a slowdown in the velocity of fiat money, then the serviceability of loans will be impossible and consequently some entities will go bankrupt and unemployment will ensue. The only 'fix' as far as retaining our current monetary system is concerned will be massive credit creation by governments. At this time I'm having a difficult time comprehending how this might take place without the value of fiat currencies becoming worthless in purchasing power terms. Hence, I see little value in keeping one's wealth in paper assets. I think we will be better served by gold or other tangible assets going forward.

I don't know if these ramblings of mine help in gaining a perspective of the world's current situation. If I've failed to make my points clear please feel free to ask for clarification. If you think I'm all wet, the same applies. All the best and once again welcome to the forum.

ET

Peter Asher
Tomcat, Julia, Canuck.
Tom: I really enjoy our conversations, I've got some more stories about home schooling versus the "warehouses" as the home schoolers call them, which I'll save for some quite day. Meanwhile, the H.S. slogan that the kids had on their T-shirts� "Schooling is not to be confused with getting an education."

Julia: That hearing data is fabulous information. It will be passed on through our own 'network'. You will, I believe, have benefitted many by putting out this data. Thank you.

Canuck: The abstractions in value derive from the fact that society does not have a 'group agreement' to use gold as a medium of exchange. If people were willing to sell and purchase, pay and debit, in increments of gold, then the value of gold would be the pivot around which all other values would revolve. That, of course, would be a true Gold Standard. As it is now, currency performs that function, and gold is that which is purchased, rather than that which does the purchasing.
USAGOLD
The Contest Winners Are.......
First of all I want to thank the four posters who took it upon themselves to fill in for me while I studied the effects of weather patterns and high altitude in the Rocky Mountains on the flight of the Titleist golf ball. ( A full study to follow at some future date.) Now I know I can take some time and leave the reporting to a capable core group of Reuters wannabes. The reporting was strong on all accounts and the readers were left with a good idea of what was going on in the gold market. Goal achieved! Thank you.

I very much appreciated, as always, Goldfly's gilded sense of humor and honest appraisal of the task at hand. I liked Peter Asher's Walter Cronkite style and straightfowardness. And I appreciated Galdalf's off beat approach even though he wandered slightly off track and borrowed from a friend -- all within the rules, o clever wizard. But the gold goes to Townie. I think he did a pretty darn good imitation of the real thing, don't you? How can I resist letting the gold in those capable hands -- a glittering one tenth ounce golden Philharmonic. A tie for second goes to the other three -- all get a silver U.S. Eagle for their own shiny Treasury.

I want to thank you guys again not just for filling in for me but for your on-going presence here. It just would not be the same without you.
Peter Asher
Gandalf, Steve.
The daily GC9Q cart looks like it has a very firm flat bottom forming. The minuscule declines in this weeks trading seem to disappear on the chart.-- Comment?
Aragorn III
Let us consider prices...
The Scot asked a question that is a fine one for discussion! The question is "If the cost of mining Gold is about $220.00 - $ 240.00 worldwide, could we safely say that the base value of Gold would not, (under normal circumstances) fall below that cost?" Splendid!

We must consider what determines the "price" of an item...is it cost of production, or is it the perceived value of the item to both the seller and buyer? It is truly everything under the Sun, but more nearly this second option than any other.

Imagine if we conceived of a plan to offer the world a new toothpaste for whiter teeth and fresher breath. In our formula we choose powdered diamonds as our mild abrasive, we choose rose petals for the freshness, and mix with pearls (for whiteness) into our base paste of caviar. Despite our high cost of production, with no public demand the market might dictate the base price to be zero, as the combined sum of these expensive parts is awful!

But do not weep for gold, thinking no bottom price may exist unless maybe zero. It has appeal...an understatement!

We have briefly examined cost of production and market sentiment, but we have not yet come to terms with price. What is "price"? Certainly we see that the concept of price is also a factor in our cost of production--at a minimum we must pay "prices" for our product's parts (diamonds, roses, pearls, and caviar). And these parts' prices are similarly established by market sentiment rather than by their individual costs of production. Everything floats against everything! (That thought might help Canuck (6/17/99; 6:01:35MDT - Msg ID:7707)). Does it not seem a mystery that meaningful prices may be established if evertything floats? Yet that is the nature of "everything under the Sun", and we shall examine whether the prices are truly "meaningful".

As we saw that our unpopular product might not be worth the sum of its parts, we shall now examine the opposite, and perhaps come more near to understanding "price". Consider the original question again, and to better appreciate its meaning (or lack of meaning) replace the item Gold with the item Dollar. "If the cost of making Dollars is about $0.01 [this cost is wrong (too high!), but you see my point], could we safely say that the base value of Dollars would not, (under normal circumstances) fall below that cost?"

Today we see the value of one dollar is much greater than the cost of production. For one fraction of a dollar an entire dollar may be created. In a world were all prices of parts and products float as determined by market sentiment, this is not surprising. But consider gold once again. What is the TRUE cost of production for gold? Just as a dollar is used to "price" a dollar, gold as money may appropriately be used to price gold. Does it not take one full ounce of gold to make one ounce? What then is the true cost of production for an ounce of gold? One ounce! In that regard, the answer to your question is Yes! The cost of production for money may set a base value for that money. This bodes well for gold at one-to-one for cost-to-value. This does not bode well for the fiat dollar.

A final point to be made from a repost by SteveH in which it was stated "The Arabs already have 60% of the proven oil reserves and the West does not like this, however, the West knows Islamic countries like gold." Rarely is a person or village or nation found to be completely self-sufficient. This inter-reliance upon each other is what economics and money is all about...finding the efficient means to meet your needs. It is likely that any given group would need to purchase oil from some other group. It is not important that XX% is owned/controlled by one group or another. What IS important is the selling price. If I have succeeded in my efforts, I have demonstrated in the preceeding paragraphs that market sentiment establishes prices, but that prices flirt with nonsense when money, as the lowest common denominator, cannot price itself one-to-one. How do you establish a price for oil when 1/100th of a dollar is the price for a dollar? Do you request 100 dollars or only one of this odd foreigner's currency? With gold as money you always know what you have...one equals one!

Back to this Arab oil... Prior to the 1971 closing of the gold window, while prices were set in "real money", the global price of oil was $3 at the end of 1970. Meanwhile, the cost of production from the Middle East was the envy of the world. Oil could be brought forth from the desert sands for only 10 cents a barrel as measured in "real money". As an oil importer, would you not seek out your supply from the low cost producers? It is only natural that the Mid East should therefore become the principle supplier of world oil. Isn't it also natural that if produced for the lowest cost in real money, it could be competitive in the world marketplace under any currency system? That is the key! And yet, what prices should be established (after 1971) when the strange new money lost its definition in gold? In all fairness, any price would do, as anything times zero remains zero. In truth, the dollar retained value for all users through its ability to purchase oil, and this value was determined by the oil producers' ability to secure payment in "real money". Unfortunately, this fostered globally a false sense of the dollar's worth, a problem aggravated by "flights to quality" into dollars during currency crises, and now they are vulnerable again when the last big domino falls. There is no easy magic to save the dollar. Prices are VERY transient things. Value is real and lasting. Gold is always one-to-one. Think globally.

got gold?
Peter Asher
Michael
Your theory on the 'Puts" is quite viable. A Put after all is just a contract that someone has written, whereby they have agreed to purchase gold at the strike price even if the market price is lower. These contracts are not backed by gold on either side, Just an "I will, if" backed by a small margin, and purchased by a small premium being 'out of the money' at the time.

I think your right about this being an affordable cost of creating negative sentiment. As this "Tangled Web" moves along the loom of manipulation and intrigue, we will soon see if some 'surprise' action by Parliament, cancels the BOE sale, the gold market having been held down for awhile for some short covering.
Gandalf the White
GC9Q chart and other comments
Yes, Peter, I too like the extended "plateau" at this level. But, check out the chart set on the monthly setting and see what Aragorn III's "Lightning in the night" will look like.
---
Thanks MK, for the addition to the Wizard's collection of those shiny white metal walking Liberty pieces. AND no, I did not place a spell on Ari and The Stranger to not enter the competition, just Tomcat and ET!!
<;-)
TownCrier
Hear ye! Hear ye! An update is now available for THIS WEEK IN GOLD
http://www.usagold.com/wgc.htmlWeekly Gold Market Commentary for June 7-11 as provided by the World Gold Council has been posted at USAGOLD at the link above. In the weekly commentary, WGC staff worldwide chronicle the significant events that help shape the gold market. The big news for the week...gold is cheap. Bring your trucks!
TownCrier
Dollar mixed at US noon after Greenspan comments
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990617/2p.htmlInteresting change in tone in this article. They refer to the dollar as approaching new highs against the euro instead of portraying the euro as sinking to new lows. The reporter must be a rookie.

And a good one at that. This single article will help get you caught up on news (since I've been sandbagging all day!)
TownCrier
Summers says IMF will try to minimize gold sales impact
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990617/0e.htmlSays the Treasury will work with the IMF "to assure that the mobilization of resources does not have a meaningful impact on gold prices."

How could anything NOT be meaningful? Even a flat price means SOMEthing...
TownCrier
Second paragraph is remarkable.
Washington--Jun 17--The US Treasury will work with the
International Monetary Fund to limit the negative impact a
sale of IMF gold reserves could have on gold prices, US
Treasury Deputy Secretary Lawrence Summers said today.

The sale of a portion of IMF gold reserves is necessary
to fund debt relief for poor countries because "the recourse
to gold has come as the ability of the IMF to raise
bilateral resources, including from the US, has fallen short
of what is necessary," Summers told the Senate Finance
Committee during his confirmation hearing.

Summers was nominated to replace outgoing Treasury Secretary
Robert Rubin, who has indicated he will leave around Jly 4.
Most recent proposals advocate the sale of up to 10
million ounces of IMF gold, which some estimate would bring
about $46 million per year for debt relief.
Some senators suggested the amount of money raised would
pale in comparison to a debt burden of more than $200
billion for the 41 poor countries in question, and is not
worth the damaging psychological effect on gold prices.
Summers answered that because most of the debt being
serviced by poor countries is owed to the IMF, it could be
serviced by "a small fraction of the IMF's gold
resources."
"I commit that the (Treasury) department will work with
IMF to ensure the sale will not have a meaningful impact on
gold prices," Summers added.

By Elizabeth Price, Bridge News
(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
Julia
Since there is interest..........
If any of you who are interested, wish to pursue information about audio descrimination problems, both the test and the corrective measures for our son were administered by the National Association for Child Development, Inc., Huntsville, Utah
Phone # (801) 745-6179

You don't have to live in Utah for this to work. It can be done in your home now I understand.

I wish you success for your children and grandchildren.
Julia

PS - Did I mention gold? Well, it won't help audio discrimination problems but it does help one to sleep soundly at night if one has some!!! Right Michael???
TownCrier
There is a party in the Tower!
In this Tower where we spend our energies looking for pertinent news of the world to pass along to the Castle, it is ironic that news FROM the Castle might go so long unnoticed at this lonely outpost! The messenger reports a shipment of gold is on the way for past services. After a moment of stunned silence in the Tower, reflecting upon these services that I consider a privilege to provide for such an august group of ladies and gentlemen, I can assure you that the Tower will remain vigilant for news, although the arrival of precious castle gold will prove to be a distraction of awesome proportions! If some day you descry there to be two suns in the daytime sky, fear not! For it will be me atop the Tower admiring this golden treasure in the noontime light!

MK--I assume this is what it must feel like to sink a 60 foot putt?
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Silver COMEX stocks dip
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 17--COMEX Jly silver futures settled up 4c at $5.073 per
ounce after reaching a 2-day high of $5.08, supported by the large fall in
COMEX warehouse stocks, reported Wednesday after the market closed. Aug
gold continued to hug $260 per ounce, settling at this level, up 10c,
after a dull, sideways trading session.

COMEX silver warehouse stocks fell 1,095,756 ounces to 74,362,526
ounces Wednesday. While this was supportive for prices today, the stock
drawdowns need to continue in a pattern before silver can really get a
boost, said David Meger, senior metals analyst at Alaron Trading.
He noted that "4c gain was not much considering the stocks drawdown."
He said that stocks are "getting into the 74 million ounce range, which is
an area where they are drawing attention." However he noted that for them
to really start to support silver, they would need to dip below 72 million
ounces. "Then if they go below 70 million, we would have a flock of people
buying silver," he predicted.
"The closer they get to that level, the more attention they will draw,
but for the time being it's a non-issue," he said, noting that Wednesday's
large drawdown may just be a one-off.

In the meantime, silver will probably remain constrained by the recent
gold price weakness. The dollar's strength is continuing to keep a cap on
prices of all the precious metals, Meger said. However, he noted he is
"very friendly" to the silver price below $4.90, despite the fact that on
technical charts, $4.75 appears to a be a downside objective. Silver
probably needs another dip to shake out "loose longs" he said.
In gold, $260 remains a "magnet" for the market, said Meger, noting
that it is continuing to stay rangebound at the $258-262 level.

Many market players are expecting gold prices to edge sideways to
marginally lower as the UK Treasury's Jly 6 auction date approaches.
However, Meger noted that while many are talking about the potential for a
short-covering rally, given the overwhelming short positions, there is
probably greater probability for a move to the downside.
Gold is also remaining nervous after the Central Bank of Russia said
Wednesday that it would support the ruble with its forex reserves. Some
players are concerned that this could involve gold sales, given that the
country's forex reserves include gold.

In the news today, Long Term Capital Management(LTCM) denied allegations
by the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA) that the fund manager had
manipulated the gold market. In an affidavit obtained by Bridge News, LTCM
said it had never entered into "any transaction involving the purchase or
sale of gold." However, LTCM said it has bought and sold publicly-traded
gold mining company securities.

Fourteen Wall Street firms saved LTCM from collapse late last year at
the behest of the Federal Reserve with a $3.625 billion equity injection.
LTCM suffered about $4 billion in losses stemming from soured trades amid
global financial market turmoil, particularly Russia's crisis.
At the time, the price of gold edged higher on rumors that LTCM was
unloading massive gold short positions. Rumors indicated these positions
were over 100 tonnes of gold. LTCM sources had denied the rumors and said
the fund had no exposure to gold.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $260, up 10c; RANGE: $260.9-259.7

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.

[Silver info was included at koan's request from yesterday]
ET
Gandalf

Ha! I knew I was feeling a bit strange the last few days but had attributed it to a bit of overconsumption at my class reunion. Now I know the truth!

Since the contest is over, does that cancel the spell?

Congratulations to you and the other fine journalists.

ET
TownCrier
Ecuador central bank manager Ayala offers to resign
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990617/50.htmlIt was not long ago when we reported their currency, the sucre, hitting the skids. The IMF asked Ecuador's president to select a new board of directors for the central bank prior to permitting Ecuador to renegotiate its $1.2 billion debt after the local economy was savaged by a currency devaluation, low prices on oil exports, and other factors. As with most countries, Ecuador's Central Bank is responsible for establishing, controlling and applying the country's monetary, financial, credit and exchange policy.

Now why doesn't the president of gold resign, too? Oh, that's right... gold is an independent operator. Money for the citizens of Earth.
TownCrier
Greenspan reiterates Fed aiming for stable prices
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990617/ve.htmlShort piece but worth a look. "We are increasingly pursuaded
that price stability should be the primary focus." Almost word for word, that is the euro managers' stated objective, too.

"increasingly pursuaded"... does that imply a SHIFT in policy from something else? So it would seem.
Goldfly
How would you like to have a sewer named for you.....
http://www.cbs2.com/news/stories/news-990617-081237.html"...crews armed with vacuum trucks worked through the night to clean up the mess that seeped out of the Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation plant."

Now, tell me again how there's nothing to this Y2K stuff?

GF

PS. Thanks MK! Anytime you want to leave the lunatics in charge of the asylum again- Feel free!!!
Aristotle
Ok, Aragorn, I'll do my best
I'll tell my version of your version of the whys and hows of Gold loans...er, I mean Financial Arrangements, without using such abiguous terms as gold loans, leases, shorts, etc. And for my next trick, I'll cure cancer!

But seriously, I'll put things together, and depending on time and length I'll maybe break it up as a miniseries. Then if you see that I have wandered significantly astray, you can intervene where needed. I'm gonna need a little time to tell it right without further muddying the waters. I guess this was my idea in the first place, wasn't it? I'll be back...

By the way, you said the "price" of Gold was always reliable at one-for-one. That's true, weight-wise. But if you are paying with U.S. Dollars we seem to have a two-for-one Happy Hour special underway. Step up to the bar, my friend!

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle
koan
silver drawdown
It was reported on another site that thursday saw another 660,000 oz drawdown in Comex silver inventories to 73,698,280. This has been almost straight down from 81,000,000 oz a few weeks ago. As I have been saying, this story is as big a news item on the upside for silver as $260 is on the downside for gold. I expect speculative buying for silver to begin which would further drawdown inventories. Over the last year I have sold most of my junior gold stocks and bought junior silver stocks. The only place where silver can be obtained if drawdowns become critical is India; and of course Buffet. Pretty exciting.
koan
silver's affect on gold
If these drawdowns of silver are real there could be a major move up for silver. I would think that gold would follow to some degree and this might scare the gold shorts and we could actually see a stampede of short covering.
The Scot
ARAGORN III #7725
Aragorn III, thank you for your in-depth discussion on the price of Gold. My thoughts on the "base Price" being equal to the mining cost,also encludes the "Supply and Demand" factor. If Gold mines stop production when they are no longer able to make a profit then the demand becomes greater than the supply and the price would "normally" go up. If the Arabs stop pumping oil when the price drops to .09 cents per barrel, the price of oil would go up to, as you explained the "Perceived Value". Gold is free to us all, if we have the means to retrieve it. If we do not, we must pay someone else to do the honors and he is certainly due a profit for his labor. Thak you again, The Scot
Beowulf
Silver Reserves Falling
I'm pretty new to the gold and silver trading but to me it would appear someone may be slowly accumulating silver. This could be a back door route to get gold traders to give up their long/short positions to start chasing silver. Wouldn't this then reduce the number of players actively trading gold? You could then move the gold price up or down faster with fewer people there to buy or sell.

I'm sorry but I'm not an economist, just an engineer with an interest in Military History. If I was in a battle I would send a small force around back to some harrassing (accumulating) until a large force started to withdrawl in order to go after this opponent. At the moment of greatest weakness you send in the Tanks on a forward charge to dislodge the remainder of resistance. I'd do the same in metals if I had the Bill Gates kind of money to do it with. You go after the small stuff until others withdrawl to chase the phantom buyer, then hit the good stuff and either send the price lower or higher depending on your objectives.
SteveH
National News Weekly headline somthing like...
"2nd Great Depression Coming in August...Millions jobless..."

Dated June 22, 1999.

Went to the local superstore today. While standing in the checkout line, my eye struck the headlines on one of the tabloids. There in large bold black on white was the above headline.

OBTW: August gold now...$260.00.

Battle line drawn in the sand at $260?
THX-1138
BOE Gold Sale and Korean Gold?
Haven't posted in awhile. Been reading all the different forums.

Something started gnawing at the back of my head though today. I thought I saw someone post some of the rules to the BOE sales which said something like you couldn't check out the gold before the sale and the gold was as is.

Then I read something on Kitco that the gold at the COMEX was of questionable purity, which could be the reason that their has been such little amount of gold leaving the warehouse.

Anyway, it got me thinking. Back in 1998 didn't the North Koreans basically order their citizens to turn in their gold. Could the BOE sale or the gold in the COMEX warehouse be the North Korean gold. Anyone have the total amount of gold in tons the korean's were able to come up with?

Maybe I am grasping at straws here. Any comments?
Gandalf the White
THX-1138
Hello THX
Usually the purity of a bar has been tested and is stamped on the bar. Many of the bars in Ft. Knox are of purity in the 0.9X range. The calculations are made on that purity value to determine the total weight of Au. Makes not much difference as long as one calculates in oz. of Au. -- The South Korean Government ask the citizens of the country to trade in their gold holdings in return for notes with interest in order to obtain US$ and meet the due debts. The gold received was refined and either sold outright (tis rumored that Soros got most of it) -- or retained as CB Reserves. --- I hope that this helps.
<;-)
koan
silver corner
I do not think this silver move has anything to do with gold. It is probably a simple supply and demand equation with some cornering of the mkt thrown in. I have posted before that this silver mkt is just ripe to be cornered. If some fat cat just started buying a million oz a day how long do you think it would take to start a rise. Almost immediately. What other mkt is so thin. Gold would take huge money to manipulate - silver just pennies (relatively speaking). It may be happening right now!
The Stranger
Maybe the Whole Thing Was an Accident
There is a story about a snail who was in a terrible crash. When he awoke at the hospital his wife was at his bedside.

"What on earth happened to you," she asked.

"Gosh, I don't know," he answered. "I was making a left turn when this turtle came from out of nowhere. It all happened so fast. It was just a blur."

Well, fellow knights, that's kinda how I feel about today's 10 cent rally in bullion. It all happened so fast, it was really just a blur.

Still, no draught-stricken farmer ever mocked the rain, not if he wanted more of it anyway. So, thanks be to You Know Who for small favors.

Al Fulchino
Julia/homeschooling
Great parenting job! We, too homeschooled, at the critical junior high ages. We live in a rural community and although there are much worse school systems than ours, the period that we did do it allowed our children a breather to be who they are. Rather than who the school system wanted them to be.

Michael, I gave my middle child the silver eagles. And he was struck by them. He is thrifty to begin with and this his his start in life.
Al Fulchino
Tomcat
As the Russian book on pyschopolitics plainly states, man is nothing more than an economic organism. It would seem to me and I suspect you too, that most of our fellow Americans have become just that.
Skip
How long must we wait?
This is my first posting on this forum. I've lurked for many months, both on this forum and on the kitco forum (where I occasionally post).

I'm beginning to believe that the selfish shorters will not stop hammering gold down until they have driven many of the world's gold mines into bankruptcy... further reducing the amounts of new gold added to the marketplace annually. Frankly, I believe that it is totally ABSURD for the value of gold to be worth less than the cost of getting it out of the ground and refined!!!

How can anyone in their right mind fail to recognize the evidence of market manipulation by those who are shorting the heck out of gold? Often we focus on how this has severely hurt the financial affairs of the remnants of the goldbugs and gold bulls...but unless this disgusting and frustrating manipulation is stopped SOON, it is my opinion that there will be worldwide ramifications that will have long-lasting effects in all financial circles, both private and public.

The more you stretch a rubber band, the more force it has when it finally breaks and snaps back...and if gold keeps getting slammed down, down, down, into the low 200's or high 100's before it finally snaps, it will finally skyrocket with a vengeance that will make the gold bull of 20 years ago look like child's play by comparison.

There reamins only one question which, in spite of speculation and myriads of information that is difficult to sort through, because it is almost impossible to sort out the fact from the fiction and speculation. That question is:
...how long must we wait before gold finally rises???

Any INTELLIGENT response to that question would be appreciated, as it is now almost impossible to sort out the fact from the fiction and speculation. I'm certain that there are many goldbugs who are beginning to regret the day they ever invested in gold or gold stocks; but certainly there will soon be some light at the end of the tunnel. We can only hope that the light at the end of the tunnel is NOT the light of another oncoming train.

--Skip
koan
ever so slight
The major gold stocks were a little bit lower and the major silver stocks and options were just a little bit higher. There was also very subtle increases in both price and volume (relatively speaking) in the QUALITY silver junior stocks, that only the pros would know. This silver drama which is unfolding is getting quiet attention by those in the know. Also interesting is how little notice most gold sites are giving to this unfolding story; but the real money, the quiet money seems to be buying. The gold carry trade may or may not turn out to be anything. I have read a lot of theories which may be right, but I have not seen anything I can get my teeth into; and the problem with that theory is that if it is right people will do very well and if wrong nothing will happen. This silver drama is just old fashion supply and demand - not sexy, but solid. I will be the first to admit these Comex silver statisitcs may turn out to be just fluff, but if they are real then those who are positioned stand to do very well. I was lucky in 87 and caught that move from this level, almost exactly, to $11.00 in a very short time and from $6.00 to $9.00 in a blink. But this set up looks better than any I have ever seen because the world has exhausted the supply's of silver from all sources except India; and the base metal mines where most silver comes from are on the rocks. But then again it may be nothing. To inquiring minds I advise - stay alert.
Goldsun
Mideast buyers
MK
While skepticism certainly seems warranted, two alternate theories suggest themselves.
Not moving the market.
Privacy.
Perhaps the quantities theoretically involved aren't large enough to move the market, but I wonder if physical trades might not have more impact than same size paper trades these days.
The virtues of privacy might include avoidance of Indian import fees.
You probably considered and rejected these possibilities.
If this could be the case, I would be greatly gratified should you be able to share your reasons.
Goldsun
SteveH
Debate in Englands parliament recently...
I believe Mr. Aubyn has it right. They don't have all the information. The members weren't told that the sale of gold was to allegedly bale out the LBMA or one or more of its members. They are debating the BOE sale as though the real reason is to help the poor countries. They appear to not have a clue that gold is shorted so deeply into a hole they must allegedly sell their gold to clear a short position or claim against a guarantee of delivery of a short.

"The hon. Gentleman is right that, in extremis, if the
whole structure of financial capitalism were to fall to
the ground with a nuclear meltdown of the financial
markets, the role of gold would come to the fore. It is
right for central banks to consider all potential
future risks to ensure that our society and our economy
can function even in such disaster scenarios. They
should hold gold, but they do not need to do so as they
have in the past.

I do not know whether selling 125 tonnes of gold over
the next 12 months and buying yen, euro and dollar
assets is the right portfolio adjustment. Not many hon.
Members have the information and expertise to make that
full analysis. However, I think that it is right that
the Bank of England is considering how best to deploy
its assets...."

-Mr. St. Aubyn-

So what would they say if they knew or suspected that? Perhaps it is said somewhere else in the text.

from GATA:

PART 2, HOUSE OF COMMONS SOUNDS LIKE GATA

I have already quoted Mr. Greenspan, who said that in 1944 Germany could not buy anything except with gold. In a real crisis, there is no doubt that gold is important. It is not just my taxi driver who takes that view. When I was in Vietnam last year, everybody told me that every Vietnamese peasant has gold underneath his floorboards or his straw because the Vietnamese have no confidence in their currency. We tend to talk about gold in terms of official reserves, but a lot of unofficial gold is hidden in China and Vietnam and, one is always told, in France--although I have a French wife and I have not yet managed to discover her gold hoard. It is widely believed that people hold gold all over the world secretly, against the possibility of disaster, which is a tremendously important market consideration. That is what is meant by the psychology of gold and it is extraordinary that the Bank of England should have taken this decision, and the way that they have done so.

I do not wish to go into the question of International Monetary Fund gold sales in any detail, because that is a separate, although obviously related, subject. The IMF is not a central bank. It is ironic that the Chancellor, who is understandably keen to help the poorer nations of the world, seems also to be keen to persuade the IMF to sell gold. He hopes that it will do so, but many poorer countries would be extremely hard hit by that.

Hon. Members who are interested might care to read the recently published pamphlet entitled "Gold mining's importance to sub-Saharan Africa and heavily indebted poor countries", because 41 HIPCs mine gold, and it is an extremely important part of the exports of nine of those countries. Curiously enough, the sale of IMF gold, if it depressed the price of gold still further, would seriously and adversely affect many of the poorest countries.

The sale of our gold will not increase the size of our reserves; they will remain the same, so that argument cannot be used. Many countries feel that they ought to be building up their reserves, and they are all trying to do so. An extraordinary aspect of the situation is how dangerously low Britain's net reserves are. Their net value on 7 May was only $15 billion. A more sensible policy than selling gold would be to build up our reserves by buying dollars and other currencies with our sterling. That would help to lower the exchange rate of sterling, which is a desirable objective at present, and increase our reserves of foreign currencies, which the sale of gold will not achieve.

Mr. Tyrie: In view of the experience in the '90s with the huge movements of global capital, does my hon. Friend believe that open market operations are an intelligent way in which to try to alter the value of a currency?

Sir Peter Tapsell: I would not normally take that view, but our long-term economic aim ought to be the building up of our reserves. That is what every country wishes to do, and many of them are pursuing that. Our reserves in relation to our imports are very low, so any step that we can take to build up our reserves will be welcome.

I have mentioned the aspects of public opinion. I am not one of those who thinks that one should follow focus groups and so on, but it is overwhelmingly evident that public opinion in this country is opposed to the whole policy of selling gold by 5:2. The Government will have to be persuasive if they are to change that view.

There have been previous attempts to reduce the role of gold in central banks. The last was the introduction of special drawing rights. At that time, I happened to be an adviser to the monetary authority of Singapore. I went to see Dr. Goh Keng Swee, who was then Singapore's Finance Minister and who, in my experience, had the most subtle and brilliant financial mind of any Finance Minister or central bank governor I have ever known. I said to him, "Dr. Goh, will Singapore take SDRs?" Dr. Goh replied, "I have no intention of putting a paper tiger into Singapore's tank." That is a slogan worth keeping in mind.

The whole point about gold, and the quality that makes it so special and almost mystical in its appeal, is that it is universal, eternal and almost indestructible. The Minister will agree that it is also beautiful. The most enduring brand slogan of all time is, "As good as gold." The scientists can clone sheep, and may soon be able to clone humans, but they are still a long way from being able to clone gold, although they have been trying to do so for 10,000 years. The Chancellor may think that he has discovered a new Labour version of the alchemist's stone, but his dollars, yen and euros will not always glitter in a storm and they will never be mistaken for gold.

Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton): I congratulate the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir P. Tapsell) on keeping to a fairly balanced view when he developed the theory of the role of gold in a modern economy. However, I disagree with his conclusions.

In answer to my intervention, the hon. Gentleman talked about the psychological importance of this sale of gold and explained the psychological role of gold in monetary economics. He was right to focus on that, because gold's main contribution in the modern monetary economy is that it is, at the last resort, the store of value and the provider of assistance in underpinning market confidence. However, many other commodities and assets retain value for investors, businesses and Governments and there are many other ways of maintaining market confidence in a modern economy, from regulation to the lessons of history.

At the end of this century, many participants in the financial markets--and in all product and labour markets, for that matter--have much greater confidence in the ability of capitalism and financial capitalism to deliver success. That was not the case centuries ago, when gold made a much more important psychological contribution. The lesson of history is that we do not need gold to underpin confidence and value. The role played by gold has been declining, which means that the hon. Gentleman's point about its psychological contribution is much less strong today. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman that, in the past, gold was absolutely vital--in the early days of financial capitalism, it was crucial--but the role that he wishes to attribute to it is not as strong as he suggests.

Mr. Gill: Does the hon. Gentleman think that these matters should have been discussed in the House before the decision to sell was made, given that money has been put aside in reserves by the taxpayer? The taxpayer clearly has a view, as my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir P. Tapsell) explained in his excellent presentation. There is also the question whether the taxpayer feels that that store of value, which belongs to him, has been preserved by putting the proceeds of the sale of gold into other investments. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the House should have been granted a debate on these important matters before the Government took the decision to sell the gold?

Mr. Davey: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman about that. One of the criticisms that can be made against the Government is that they were too open and transparent about the sale of the gold, and that that has moved the market price. I do not subscribe to the criticism that has been made of the Bank of England's approach, because I think that the way in which it has set out these sales over the next 12 months will help to bring order and stability to the gold market, which, as has been said, is characterised by volatility.

The hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) tempts me a little. The problem with the House is that we do not analysis Government expenditure in enough detail. The House grants �300 billion to �350 billion of public expenditure without full debate. We should scrutinise the Government on that expenditure: not on technical gold sales. There is a strong argument for not having a full debate on gold sales, because that could move markets.

The role of gold can be overplayed. That is not to say that gold markets are not important and that we should not have gold reserves: of course we should. I do not pretend to have all the financial knowledge before me properly to take a view about whether the Bank of England is right in its portfolio adjustment, but I concede that the people who are overseeing the portfolio of assets that the Bank of England holds in its vaults must from time to time decide whether to make changes and adjustments. It would be nonsense if the Bank of England were to hold static for ever a particular set of assets in particular proportions.

Mr. St. Aubyn: Does the hon. Gentleman think that it is right that the Government took this decision without giving any thought to the effect on the developing world and on the gold price? Jobs are now being lost in very poor countries as a result of this decision.

Mr. Davey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue, because that is also one of my concerns. Will the Minister explain a little more the thinking behind this decision? Now that we have this debate, it would be sensible for the Government to outline the thinking behind this sale, particularly with respect to employment in developing countries that have gold as one of their key commodity exports and the Government's policy to promote the sale of gold from the International Monetary Fund to help to deal with debt relief in poor countries. I hope that all parties in the House support that policy, because it is crucial that we try to forgive the debts of the poorest countries--the debts that are deemed to be, in Jubilee 2000 language, unpayable. The Government have made a good start, and I hope that they go further. It would be wonderful if the Minister were to announce today further gold sales for that purpose, but I doubt that she will do so.

I hope that the Minister will explain the thinking to reassure us that the left hand knows what the right hand is doing, that there is some co-ordination between the Treasury and the Bank of England on all aspects of policy, and that the policy on assisting debt relief has been linked to the policy of portfolio adjustment at the Bank of England. If those decisions are not co- ordinated, the Government are not doing their job properly.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle on securing this debate. It will help the House to focus on the role of gold in a modern economy. I take a different view from him. In international monetary economics in the late 20th century, money creation and the complexity of global financial markets is such that the role of gold is much diminished. Money creation in modern financial capitalism is almost endogenous and does not rely on a stock of yellow commodity lying in the central bank's reserves. The workings of financial capitalism have almost no relation to gold.

The hon. Gentleman is right that, in extremis, if the whole structure of financial capitalism were to fall to the ground with a nuclear meltdown of the financial markets, the role of gold would come to the fore. It is right for central banks to consider all potential future risks to ensure that our society and our economy can function even in such disaster scenarios. They should hold gold, but they do not need to do so as they have in the past.

I do not know whether selling 125 tonnes of gold over the next 12 months and buying yen, euro and dollar assets is the right portfolio adjustment. Not many hon. Members have the information and expertise to make that full analysis. However, I think that it is right that the Bank of England is considering how best to deploy its assets.

The total amount being sold is very small compared with the amounts that have been sold by other countries in recent times and that are expected to be sold in the future. Switzerland has announced future sales of 1,300 tonnes of gold, which is much greater than the amount that the Bank of England proposes to sell. We should put this matter in context, and should not get too hot under the collar about it.

10.36 am Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester): I agree that more attention should be given to this subject. The Government should have called a debate, and I regret that they did not. I also agree about the mystique-- "Goldfinger" is on television tonight, so it is an apposite day on which to hold this debate, and I have set my video recorder.

The key issue is whether gold can still play a monetary role. It used to play a big monetary role because people did not trust paper money. It played a crucial role in the development of the international traded goods sector in the 19th century. It was very effective, because it was difficult to cheat. It coincided with a period of stable prices in the 19th century. I say coincided because it was largely luck: it was because gross domestic product grew at roughly the speed of the monetary base--the increase in the amount of gold available--and thereby serious deflation was avoided. That history of success in the 19th century was carried over into the 20th, and gold was used as part of the stabilising function in the Bretton Woods system in 1944--the dollar link. When inflation created by the Vietnam war destroyed Bretton Woods, that should theoretically have led people to rush back to gold. They did a little, but no serious analyst suggested that gold should be brought back as the monetary base. There were more sophisticated arguments for commodity-based standards, which I think had some merit, but virtually no one, even during the crisis created by global inflation, thought that gold was the right way to go.

Since that time, gold has steadily fallen in price. Can gold once again play a role as a reserve currency? I do not think so. It is no longer a good store of value: we have seen that in recent years. I do not think that gold is a suitable vehicle for open-market operations, which are themselves far less relevant in an age of such huge global capital flows. Nor do I think that we will go back to gold as a vehicle for dealing with inflation, if that returns.

Gold is, as the famous phrase goes, a barbarous economic relic. I cannot believe that it makes good economic sense to spend a huge amount of money digging something up, turning it into ingots and then burying it again in vaults. These gold sales are not primarily a monetary issue. I note that the Monetary Policy Committee did not even discuss the matter. The case for the demonetisation of gold is strong.

I cautiously support the sales, but I am sorry that the Government have not moved more carefully. I do not think that there was any need to rush into these sales. We do not know whether the gold price will go down or up. My hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir P. Tapsell) said that he thought it was at a low point.

He may be right, and he may be wrong--we do not know-- but he could be right, and if he is right we should proceed more cautiously.

Mr. William Cash (Stone): Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Tyrie: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not, because I have only two or three minutes in which to finish my speech.

I am a little worried that we will sell too quickly. It is a question not just of the amount, but of the speed. There are good arguments for believing that the gold price may continue to fall. The United States might start selling gold. Has the Treasury a view on whether major countries are now considering gold sales? Is there any suggestion that they might?

I think that gold will be used less in the 21st century as a store of value in Third world countries--Vietnam was mentioned earlier--and that will result in more gold coming on to the market. Improvements in mining techniques will almost certainly increase the amount of gold available. I worked in the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development for a while, and it was found to be profitable to "leach" the piles of slag that had already been used for gold mining, to obtain gold by means of more efficient industrial processes. The supply side points to a weak gold price for some time to come.

With great respect, I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) was talking nonsense when he suggested that the Government might be selling in order to influence the price of the euro. They could do that perfectly well by using the forward book, with or without gold, as a reserve in the vaults. As I have said, I would like the Government to explain why so fast, and why so much. 10.42 am Mr. Quentin Davies (Grantham and Stamford): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir P. Tapsell) on securing this short debate, during which he raised a number of points that it would be remiss of the House not to discuss seriously. He is a distinguished parliamentarian, and brings to the subject a wealth of professional experience as well as the depth of historical knowledge for which he is famed in the House. I never listen to him without learning something that I did not know before, and I certainly was not disappointed on this occasion.

The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) also made some sensible points, and we heard a valuable--but sadly, owing to the shortage of time, all too short--contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), who probably knows more about the subject than any other Member except my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle.

The Government have left two questions in the minds of parliamentarians and the public. First, why did they decide to sell the gold? We are still no clearer about that, and I hope that we shall be clearer by the end of the debate. Secondly, why have the Government adopted such an astonishing method of conducting the sales?

Because the Government had not given us sufficient explanation, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude), the shadow Chancellor, wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but all that he received was a lot of waffle. The reply stated:

"As we have been careful to explain this is a prudent restructuring of the reserves." This is to do with: "Prudent management of public finances" to achieve a "better balance in the portfolio." Those are evasive answers. We need an answer to the question, why is it more prudent for gold to constitute 20 per cent. of the net and 7 per cent. of the gross reserves, rather than 40 per cent. and 17 per cent., or whatever the current figures are? We have heard no explanation of the factors that determined the Government's course of action, and we badly need one.

Gold has traditionally been held as a reserve because its value is a negative function of the strength of the dollar, a positive function of inflation rates and a negative function of real interest rates. It is possible to construct a hedge against the dollar simply by holding other currencies, but there is no such obvious way of obtaining protection against a resurgence of inflation, a collapse of real interest rates or interest rates becoming negative again, as they have during all our lifetimes, that is better than holding gold. As my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle pointed out, gold is a long-term insurance policy against contingencies that we do not foresee in the immediate future, but which could always return. We need to know why the Government have decided that they want to roughly halve that insurance policy. After all, 700 tonnes of gold is not very much for an economy the size of ours.

The Government must think that there is some reason for holding gold in the reserves, or they would have decided to get rid of the entire gold reserve. We need a clear explanation of why they think it prudent to hold a mere 300 tonnes. If they agreed with the arguments advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester, it would be logical for them to get rid of gold altogether; but they have not, and their actions lack credibility.

Do the Government have formal models for determining their management of the portfolio of the reserves? Is there a formal risk management model? If so, will they place it in the House of Commons Library, so that all of us, including the public, can learn on what the portfolio decisions are based, and why such adjustments are apparently required? After all, the Government are acting in an agency capacity, managing the taxpayer's money.

The Minister must reply to the serious point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle. We cannot allow the rumours to grow, because they are extremely dangerous to public confidence. It has been suggested that the market is very short of gold, that the short positions may be a substantial multiple of the total amount of gold currently held by the Bank of England, and that the Bank's real motive is to save the bacon of firms that are running those short positions. If such a suggestion is being made seriously, it must be dealt with authoritatively and definitively, and we want an answer from the Government now.

Apart from the question "Why do it?", the obvious question in the minds of the public is, "Why do it in what is apparently such an incredibly incompetent and foolish fashion?". Someone who is going to sell something does not an���"��qqqqqqqqqqqq��qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq������qqqqqqqqqqqq�qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
SteveH
Peter,Gandalf,Stranger,Aragorn and all
did you see the $2.50 upward move in gold at 5:05am??? I did, wowser!!!
SteveH
I am sorry, I meant $3.00 up move...
Holy upmove, batman!

Now $263.00!!!!!!!
SteveH
I am sorry, I meant $4.00 up move...
Wake up you folks, you have got to see this!!!
SteveH
Rhody and Silver(under)ware
Date: Fri Jun 18 1999 05:05
rhody (Sterling no more: Come 2000, sterling silver will no) ID#411440:
Copyright � 1999 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
longer be the standard for silverware in Britain. Rather Britain
will switch to the European 800 grade silver as standard for
all silverware. Prior to year 2000 800 grade silver was required
by British law to be called "white metal" when sold in Britain.
No more. 800 grade silver will now be called "solid silver".
Sterling grade wares will be discontinued.
I thought silverbugs might be interested in this development.
I will suggest to you that it is yet another symptom of the
increasing deficit of supply situation in silver. Rather than
raise the spot price, the CABAL is manipulating a degrading of
the product. How much do you want to guess that the price of
the new "solid silver" ware will be just as expensive as the old
sterlingware?
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
Swiss Gold Sales
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/headlines/19990618/business/0929698401-0000008989.htmlFriday June 18, 10:33 AM

Swiss block amendment easing gold sales

BERNE, June 18 - A rare alliance of Switzerland's Left and Right teamed up on Friday to defeat a new constitutional amendment that would ease Swiss gold sales
to fund a proposed humanitarian foundation.

The government and the Swiss National Bank have said envisaged gold sales of 1,300 tonnes can proceed in any event once specific legislation authorising such
sales is in place early next year, but the amendment would have made it easier for the central bank to transfer gold reserves to third parties.

The leftist Socialist Party (SP) and right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP) joined forces to block the government-backed amendment in a lower house vote of 86 to
83 with nine abstentions. The upper house approved the article.

The SP objected to the new amendment's mandate that the Swiss National Bank make fighting inflation the primary goal of monetary policy. Party officials said this
reflected outdated monetarism that fuelled unemployment.

The SVP, on the other hand, disliked the fact that the upper house's version would let the central bank hand over 500 tonnes of gold to the proposed Solidarity
Foundation to aid victims of poverty, human rights abuses and catastrophes.

The populist party wants to put all the proceeds of gold sales into Switzerland's state pension fund. The idea of gold sales themselves was never an issue in the
debate. The government says the Solidarity Foundation can proceed even on the basis of a new constituition that voters adopted in April.
Canuck
Thanks
To: 'The Scot' (re:msg 7710) and 'ET' (re:msg 7721)

Thank you for responding to my msg 7707 yesterday.
Perhaps this question will partially address both
your replies. 'The Scot' mentioned that cost of
production is about $240/oz. If gold were to drop below
that figure then mining becomes a losing venture. This
then validates that fact that several mines have announced
their possible closure if the POG approachs cost. I have
seen in the paper that one mine (I forget which one) can
sell at $340/oz. and this is the only reason I see how
it can be possible to continue to operate. How does this
mine sell at $340 when the POG is $260? Is it because of
shortage? Is there 'leverage' at work here?

'ET' mentioned the 'financial bubble' yesterday. If gold
is leased, then released, then sold, then released a couple
of times more and then around the 'mulberry bush' again
does this then provide the $340 the mine can sell at. If I
manufacture a "gadget" and sell it (for $1)and then it is resold over and over and when it returns to me the price is alot higher, yes, say $2. How do I resell the "gadget" for
$2.5 if I am selling them for $1? Is this a 'bubble', or is
it 'trouble' or is it 'mubble'??

Is gold doing a selling/leasing circle around and around
creating its own 'bubble' caused by shortage, complicated
by 'umpteen' external factors?

Severely confused.

'Crazy' Canuck
SteveH
August gold now...
$261.10. Wide swings there this morning.

Suisse gold sale kabosh was a shot across the bow. Wwwwwhhhhhh....kaboom.....splash.....spray.....
Cavan Man
koan & gold carry
...."If it is right people will do very well and if it is wrong, nothing will happen." IMHO, if nothing happens, I submit that is OK too. IMHO, the primary reason to buy GOLD is for reasons of preserving YOUR wealth derived from YOUR labor and as "financial insurance". Diversification into PMS is a prudent strategy. Capital appreciation is a side benefit.
SteveH
incroyable!
BoE warns on bank credit to resurgent hedge funds
By James Saft

LONDON, June 18 (Reuters) - Hedge fund activity in global financial markets may be on the rise, fuelled by a new willingness by banks to extend credit, a report by the Bank of England said on Friday.

The BoE's Financial Stability Review, which monitors the stability of the UK and world financial system, said that some banks appear to have shrugged off the lessons of the near-default of Long-Term Capital Management (LTCM), which roiled financial markets in 1998.

The report said the BOE has seen anecdotal evidence suggesting that activity by highly leveraged hedge funds may have picked up.

``There have also been some suggestions that lenders to highly leveraged institutions may have begun to relax their terms again...despite the obvious lessons of last year's events and the clear recommendations about good practice drawn up since the LTCM episode,'' the report said.

In September, LTCM had to be rescued in a Federal Reserve-ochestrated $3.6 billion bailout by 14 banks and securities firms after it chalked up big losses when its complex trading bets went wrong.

Hedge funds are vehicles for sophisticated investors which often use large borrowings to magnify returns.

In the case of LTCM this went wrong when a complex series of trades was driven far into the red after Russia's effective default on sovereign debt.

The LTCM debacle prompted a report by the Basel Committee of Banking Supervisors which recommended that banks' exposure to hedge funds be more tightly monitored.

The BOE report said that it was unclear how much weight should be given to the anecdotal evidence of looser lending to hedge funds.

``But it is important that (Basel) recommendations are implemented by all institutions, even as memories of last autumn's events fade,'' the report said.





turbohawg
Re: oxymoron - safe bank
http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htmWhat do you think will be the unintended consequences of >"computer attacks on foreign bank accounts held by Milosevic and other Serbian leaders, such as draining assets or altering banking records."< ??


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THURSDAY, JUNE 17, 1999 22:55:22 ET XXXXX
CLINTON IS SAID TO ORDER CIA TO DESTABILIZE MILOSEVIC'S REGIME
President Clinton has signed a secret "presidential finding" authorizing the CIA to try to weaken Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic's hold on power, and open the way for a new government in Belgrade, the NEW YORK TIMES is reporting in late Friday editions.
The plan does not include U.S. military assistance for the Kosovo Liberation Army, reports the TIMES' James Risen. But it does call for "computer attacks on foreign bank accounts held by Milosevic and other Serbian leaders, such as draining assets or altering banking records." The NY TIMES story develops an earlier report that appeared in NEWSWEEK. Risen: "Milosevic has moved large amounts of money from Yugoslavia into bank accounts in Russia, Switzerland, Cyprus and, more recently, Lebanon, according to U.S. officials."
Officials tell the TIMES that the "presidential finding" is not directed at Milosevic personally but at the entire leadership of his government.
Impacting on Friday...
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report
MARKET REPORT(6/18/99): Gold was slightly higher this morning after surging in
Europe on news that the Swiss parliament rejected a currency amendment that would have
liberalized gold sales. The rejections would make it more difficult for the Swiss National
Bank to sell its gold to third parties pointing to a ground swell of opposition to the sales.
SNB told Reuters that "no gold sales were possible before early 2000." Gold ran to the
$263 level in response where it was met supposedly by producer selling according to the
Reuters London report this morning. Nobody came forward in the Reuters report to explain
which mining company would be willing to sell gold at these levels. The reports among
traders close to this firm describe a total lack of producer selling at these levels and its been
this way for the past 30 days. I would like to see some sort of proof that it was producer
selling that drove gold back to $260 and not some large financial institution protecting its
sacrosanct short position.

Interestingly New York Federal Reserve Bank President William McDonough said
yesterday that the spectre of central bank gold sales had "distorted the inflation signal that
the metal was believed to have had in the past." That did not square with his boss'
interpretation of gold's role as an inflation indicator. While McDonough was explaining his
view to the Financial Women's Association, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan was
simultaneously telling Congress that gold's recent fall was not just because of the threat of
central bank gold sales but "a reflection of a global reduction in long-term inflation
outlook."

Bridge News reports that "Long Term Capital Management(LTCM) fund has denied
allegations by the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA) that the fund manager had
manipulated the gold market. In an affidavit obtained by Bridge News, LTCM said it had
never entered into 'any transaction involving the purchase or sale of gold.' However,
LTCM said it has bought and sold publicly-traded gold mining company securities."
Rumors had been circulating the gold market that LTCM was short gold between 300 and
1000 tons.

The debate about the Bank of England gold sale has taken root in Parliament (as we
predicted here) and here's an excerpt from Sir Peter Tapsell as delivered in the British
House of Commons:

"The whole point about gold, and the quality that makes it so special and almost mystical in
its appeal, is that it is universal, eternal and almost indestructible. The Minister will agree
that it is also beautiful. The most enduring brand slogan of all time is, 'As good as gold.'
The scientists can clone sheep, and may soon be able to clone humans, but they are still a
long way from being able to clone gold, although they have been trying to do so for 10,000
years. The Chancellor may think that he has discovered a new Labour version of the
alchemist's stone, but his dollars, yen and euros will not always glitter in a storm and they
will never be mistaken for gold."

Well spoken. I have never seen so eloquent and so succinct a defense of the role of gold by
a politician on either side of the big pond. My contratualtions to Sir Peter Tapsell!

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
Technician
New insight on gold
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlIt has been said that gold will be explosive when it's time comes. We saw that this morning when a even a flimsy event caused immediate panic. It is true that those waiting for the correct time may be left at the starting gate kicking themselves. Buy bulion coins and Durban and await your turn.

The bull story of the years get's little coverage. Well formed bull market pointing at $25 crude. That makes the hysterical reaction to the recent CPI look pathetic. The last inflational binge was caused by crude, Has everone forgotten that? Look at the CRB ( I will put chart on web site in bit) after the hysterics not so much damage up strongly this morning. Not so hard to read these tea leaves.
TownCrier
You have to recognize this as the first grand official signal that the system has broken!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990618/q3.htmlHEADLINE: G7 lines up landmark deal for poor countries

This is an official write off of PAPER DEBT. Think about what this means!!
TownCrier
REMINDER: Financial ministers can (and do) manipulate paper easier than gold
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990618/kl.htmlHEADLINE: U.S. Treasury declines comment on yen sale rumors

"We have no comment," said a Treasury spokeswoman when asked whether the United States had taken part in yen sales, meanwhile a spokesman for the European Central Bank confirmed that it had sold yen for euros by request of the Bank of Japan.
koan
spreads
My guess at the gold up, silver down, thing today would be that when gold jerked this morning the traders applied spreads - long gold and short silver. This is probably tempory. Caven Man: silver can protect wealth as well gold. I have been a bug for 20 years, but I don't take a religious approach to gold or silver. They are just metals - like tin and nickle. I do not think God had any special role for them. They are valuable because they are rare and have special qualities; and I think people have the right to buy them for any reason they want including making money or monetary insurance.
Aristotle
Worth a second look
"Perhaps the easiest way to secure a place in the history books is to offer fitting words about Gold during some defining moment or turmoil. The real trick is in being there." ---Aristotle, 1999

OK, now that my place in history is secure, I think a page will certainly be added for the honorable Member for Louth and Horncastle, Sir Peter Tapsell for this (already relayed by SteveH and MK, but worth a second look):

"The whole point about gold, and the quality that makes it so special and almost mystical in its appeal, is that it is universal, eternal and almost indestructible. The Minister will agree that it is also beautiful. The most enduring brand slogan of all time is, "As good as gold." The scientists can clone sheep, and may soon be able to clone humans, but they are still a long way from being able to clone gold, although they have been trying to do so for 10,000 years. The Chancellor may think that he has discovered a new Labour version of the alchemist's stone, but his dollars, yen and euros will not always glitter in a storm and they will never be mistaken for gold."
koan
G and S spread
I am guessing that the reason gold is up and silver down today is that the jerk up last night caused traders to put on spreads - long gold and short silver. This should be temporary.
Aristotle
Request for SteveH
Would it be possible to have you post the ending portion of your 7754(?) post of the Parlimentary discussions? It got garbled, and I'm am left hanging as to whether the Butler did it...

Thanks for sharing this info! ---Aristotle

PS. to others...Yes, I'm working on it...
The Stranger
More of Sir P.Tapsell Which Bears Repeating
"The Minister must reply to the serious point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle. We cannot allow
the rumours to grow, because they are extremely dangerous to public confidence. It has been suggested that the market is very
short of gold, that the short positions may be a substantial multiple of the total amount of gold currently held by the Bank of
England, and that the Bank's real motive is to save the bacon of firms that are running those short positions. If such a suggestion
is being made seriously, it must be dealt with authoritatively and definitively, and we want an answer from the Government now."
The Stranger
Canuck
When reporting forward sales prices, it is common practice for miners to add the anticipated net interest earned over the life of the lease to the proceeds of the sale. This largely accounts for the above market numbers you are seeing.
TownCrier
What happened to "You broke it, you bought it" policy?
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990618/07.htmlHEADLINE: Blair, Clinton agree on Kosovo cost-sharing

The United States and Britain agreed on Friday that Europe should bear the brunt of the cost of rebuilding war damage in Kosovo and surrounding areas.

President Clinton said to reporters that the United States had paid for the bulk of NATO's 11-week air war against Yugoslavia.

One official said estimates of up to $60 billion were highly exaggerated and guessed the final figure would be "in the single-figure billions."

Whaaaa hahaha hahah ahaha ha haha hahha hah ahah! Single figure billions! I love it!! Brother, can you spare a billion? :-)
C'mon... it's ONLY a billion...(not like were talking real money here)
TownCrier
Japan recruits ECB for yen intervention
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990618/zs.htmlRead this and learn a little about forex operations.

With a comment like this: "Japanese officials have repeatedly warned traders that they would keep intervening if the yen strengthened too far, with senior Japanese Finance Ministry official Eisuke Sakakibara making the point overnight." as a citizen, don't you think you want to be dumping your yen (if you had any) for gold? I sure would.
TownCrier
Thousands flee Kashmir fighting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_372000/372255.stmAt least 30,000 have fled from the Pakistani side while both India and Pakistan are firing thousands of artillery rounds over the Line of Control every day.

What is next?
Aristotle
Hey Townie, I'm gonna beat you to this one--A MUST READ
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_372000/372441.stmThe German Chancellor said a sum of around $90 billion would be cancelled, but French President Jacques Chirac said that the package amounted to $65 billion. The article then states that ten percent of the IMF's gold reserves are to be sold to finance the plan.

How literal do we want to interpret this? Writing off debt admits that the system has become broken beyond repair within the parameters of the system (as you pointed out this morning.) For the creditors to accept this proposed amount of IMF Gold as the compensation for the bad loans, we have a 25 to 30 TIMES increase in the dollar price of Gold...pushing $10,000 per ounce! Sounds about right...

Gold. Get you some, and make haste about it! The weekends seem to get longer and longer. ---Aristotle
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 18--
After spiking up hit a 10-day high of $264.80 per ounce in this
morning's NYMEX Access trading session, Aug gold gave up most of its gains
and then edged sideways in a quiet session. It settled up 90c at $260.90.

Gold had jumped on news that opposition was emerging to the use of
Swiss gold-sale proceeds outside of Switzerland. However, gold started to
slip back from early morning highs as it became clear the whole matter was
more about the beneficiaries than the actual sale of the gold itself.
The Swiss parliament, in a vote of both chambers (Upper and Lower
House) today rejected an amendment to the constitution designed to
regulate how the earnings from the planned sale of 1,300 tonnes of excess
gold reserves by the Swiss National Bank are to be used.
This, however, has no influence on the SNB's planned gold sales. The
government and the Swiss National Bank have said expected gold sales of
1,300 tonnes can proceed in any event once specific legislation
authorizing such sales is in place early next year.
While Switzerland is unlikely to change the 1,300 tonnes of reserve
gold it plans to sell, the seeds of doubt over the reasoning behind the
move have been planted and some players continue to suggest that this is a
positive development for the troubled gold market.

Leonard Kaplan, chief bullion dealer at LGF Bullion Services,
said that he is more positive on gold and that he will be
recommending in his newsletter Monday that clients cover short positions.
"I strongly believe it's headed higher," he said, noting that the latest
news from Switzerland is "enough to tip the market a bit to the bullish
side." He noted that gold dropped back from today's highs on some producer
selling.

Some players are not as optimistic and suggest that gold will continue
to remain caught in a narrow range just above the fresh 20-year low of
$258.50 per ounce it made Jun 10. Others said that gold could even edge
lower ahead of the UK Treasury's first gold auction, which is set for Jly
6. However, many are expecting a short-covering rally after the auction
takes place.
Meanwhile, statements on proposed International Monetary Fund gold
sales this afternoon had little affect on the market, said traders. US
aides said that IMF gold sales would be up to 10 million ounces, which is
the level most have been expecting. "The IMF sales proposal is factored in
and unless they say they're selling much more or much less, I wouldn't
expect to see a change in price," said one trader.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $260.9, up 90c; RANGE: $264.8-259.4

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
Thanks for the assist. Here is more...
G8: US Aide Says Congress Must Approve Sale of Imf Gold
--G7 approves sales of up to 10 mln oz IMF gold, US aide says
--IMF gold to provide $67 bln in new debt relief, US aide says

By Blair Pethel, Bridge News
Cologne--Jun 18--Although the leaders of the Group of 7
industrialized nations today approved the sale of up to 10
million ounces of the IMF's gold reserves to help fund a new
debt-relief initiative, the US Congress must still approve
that sale before it can proceed, a US aide said today.
Speaking to reporters, National Economic Council
Chairman Gene Sperling said the White House and Treasury
Department would make extensive efforts to shepherd the
issue through the congressional minefield, as several
prominent lawmakers, including Joint Economic Committee
Chairman Jim Saxton, R-N.J., have gone on record as opposing
the move.
Sperling said the leaders backed the gold sale as part
of an overall initiative to raise the level of debt relief
available to heavily indebted poor countries to about $90
billion from about $23 billion currently.
Under the new initiative, 33 countries will be eligible
for significant relief of debts due multilateral and
bilateral official-sector creditors when they demonstrate a
3-year track record of following IMF-mandated economic
reforms.
He said that in many cases, the new initiative would
halve debt-service payments as a percentage of GDP for many
of the eligible countries.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
Cavan Man
TownCrier
The late Senator Everett Dirkson from Illinois is reported to have said and I paraphrase, "......a billion here and a billion there; pretty soon that starts to add up!"
TownCrier
Desperation?
U.S. President Bill Clinton told Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi on Friday to use all tools at his disposal to spur Japanese growth, a top White House official said.
Gandalf the White
TEST
<;-)
beesting
Violence erupts at debt protest in London
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_372000/372537.stmI'm sure most may have already heard about this, but I haven't seen it posted here.

Excerpts:
At least 42 demonstrators and 4 police officers were injured.
Some 50 protestors smashed glass doors of the London International Financial Futures Exchange (LIFFE).Trading was halted as the building was evacuated.Campaigners also daubed pink paint on the door of the London Metals Exchange.
German police were expecting 100,000 demonstrators to protest in Cologne.

Seems Goldhearts are not the only ones unhappy with current world economic policy........beesting
Cavan Man
Third World Debt
For third world nations the forgiveness of substantial amounts of debt is no doubt a welcome relief. However, what is the significance of such an action for creditor nations? The debt they are forgiving is measured in a medium of exchange, not real money. Risk was certain to be accounted for in making the contracts and factored as a premium. Also, there is still plenty of debt to go around for the lenders to "graze" on.
Cavan Man
Korean Update
www.tampabayonline.net/news/news1001.htmThe march of folly in the Balkans will be magnified if these chickens come home to roost. (Taking a page from TownCrier)
beesting
Diversionary Tactics!
Please see my post below #7784 concerning European demonstrations against the world financial community.

Here is another comment:
Could this possibly be carefully planned diversionary tactics to take the focus away from what is really going on in the financial world. Remember some term the battle between Goldhearts and paper money advocates a WAR!!
If the world financial system is about to change drastically as some here suggest, what better way to draw attention away from those that are responsible, by creating Civil unrest.Please notice the targets mentioned in the news article(LBMA and LIFFE) the 2 entities that seem to be controlling the world Spot price of Gold. For What It's Worth.....Remember this is speculation.......beesting
Cavan Man
Link
Sorry to all. That's a booboo.
something else
Clarity please!
Ok. I'm lost on something here. How does the BOE and the IMF hope to "provide relief to poor countries" by selling gold? Do they mean that they intend to use the gold sale proceeds to in some way provide debt relief for those countries that can't "pay their bills" (as in what?; service the debt they issued, similar to the bond issued by the US?) If so, I don't understand how this is supposed to help. If I were to sell my gold bullion, how would that help you pay your debts? What am I missing?

I sincerely appreciate your insights. Thanks!
Cavan Man
Japan's Desperation
The Japanese economic malaise illustrates at least one thing quite clearly; when there are deep rooted'significant, fundamental flaws in an economic model, it often takes years for the cycle to progress in reverse. There was a very good editorial on the WSJ oped page 6-17 concerning Japan and what few options the Japanese government has left to combat the dire inflation beginning to grip the economy. The Japanese are accelerating their hunkering down. Short their equities and be patient for those who forecast economic turmoil on these shores. Unfortunately, I believe the tide will roll in someday in the not too distant future.

Poor Goldilocks.
THX-1138
gold bet
I bet my father $10 that gold would hit go above $290 by July 31. Guess we will see who is right.
Cavan Man
History As A Teacher
While flying at 35K feet last week I made the acquaintance of a fellow frequent flyer. We were discussing Y2K, Gold, etc. This gentleman's grandfather had lived through the Great Depression. When FDR confiscated gold in 1933, the grandfather put all of his gold in a Mason jar and hid the jar in a concrete block wall. He would break the wall, retrieve a coin and then patch the block back in when he needed to trade. My frequent flying acquaintance related to me how his Father, and other family members survived the Depression in good shape always having food and shelter.

Now that's something to remember Dad for on Father's Day.
canamami
A Consistent Approach re the Comex Numbers
Has anyone else noted a certain inconsistency on the Forum in the manner in which the Comex numbers are viewed? To be more precise, one view on the Forum is that the Comex numbers are manipulated and/or unreliable because they are determined by the huge amount of paper gold. Thus, the Comex numbers are unreliable in determining gold's true value, particularly that of physical gold. Thus, the argument goes, one should not pay too much attention when the Comex numbers are down. However, there was great euphoria on the Forum when gold rallied this morning, which would indicate the Comex numbers are to be taken seriously. Now, I know this inconsistency is more apparent than real, in that different posters on the Forum take a different view of matters, and are different species of goldbug, and thus have a different take on the importance of the Comex numbers. However, in discussing the gold market, it is good to remember that we as individuals ought to take a consistent individual approach to the Comex numbers - either they are important, or they're not, regardless of whether they are up or down. Just my rant for the day.

Have a good weekend, everyone.
Oregon Geezer
Lessee if I got this right
The G7 nations want to forgive the debts of the poorest countries which, I believe, run in to the tens of billions of dollars. Now where did the money come from to make these loans in the first place? From governments? Where do they get their money? Another shot in the shorts for the taxpayers.
I made my quarterly tax payment to the IRS this week and believe me my jaw hurt from being clenched when I wrote the check and thought about how my dollars will be spent aka wasted.
And, like the War on Poverty from LBJ, what do/did we get for our money? We spent $5 billion on the "War" and are the poor no longer poor? Heh, heh, heh. OK, when the debt is forgiven for the poor nations, what will we get for the "investment?" Ho, ho, ho. Of course these nations will rejoice and thank us and become our best buddies. Hee, hee, hee.
I can just see the next step. The prime minister of Lower Slobovia (I still love Al Capp) will approach and say, "Since we are now debt free and need more investments, you must loan us more money." Gag, choke, barf.
Yup, the inmates are in charge of the asylum.
AEL
"They are crazy"

http://www.larouchepub.com/lar_bad_godesberg_2619.html

In October, he abandoned that policy, and the G-7 group of nations, together
with the central banks of these nations, participated in an agreement which
resulted in three directions of policy.

One was to bail out the system, the financial system, at any cost, by
launching the most lunatic hyperinflationary bubble in all history, which is
now bubbling. What is being done now to the currencies of the G-7 and other
countries, is far worse than what was done in the 1923 phase, prior to
autumn, of the Weimar hyperinflation.

We're dealing with a situation in which, in terms of derivatives accounts
alone, or derivatives and related accounts, we have $300 trillion equivalent
of short-term obligations outstanding. This debt, which is of a short-term
nature, could never be paid, any more than, at the point of the collapse of
the Weimar reichsmark, that reichsmark could be upheld. So, we're on a
collision course toward early doom. But they decided to do it anyway.

As one prominent European banker said to us, "These people are crazy. They
resorted to bailout. There will be another crisis, as you say, after the
first of the year, and they'll resort to more bailout," as they did in
February of this year.

If another crisis comes, they'll try the same thing. These people are out of
control. They will go to hyperinflation at any cost, with less excuse than
managers of Germany did in pumping up, in the summer and autumn of 1923, the
Weimar hyperinflationary bubble. We are near the terminal end of the
financial system, and they don't care. They are crazy.


AEL
larouche
ps: that (below) was written by Lyndon LaRouche
Cavan Man
canamami
In the context of current events in the gold market, MHO is that the Comex is not that relevant. At the very foundation of one's intellect, an individual must assent to one view or the other; gold is or is not what 5000 years of humanity have declared it to be. Good thought!
Cavan Man
AEL
I am fond of saying, "consider the source". Seems like a good point though. Could you provide a little background on the events of 1923 in Germany to fill in the blanks and for accurate comparison's sake? Thanks.
The Stranger
The Japan Connection
This may be of particular interest to Cavan Man. I am sorry for posting the whole thing here, but one must be a "Barrons" subscriber to get it from the source.

Cavan Man- I too read the WSJ piece on Japan, though I came away with an altogether different impression. Oh, well...that's normal, I suppose. Anyway, I have argued in the past that improvement in worldwide commodity prices (including gold) and Japanese prospects for economic recovery are linked. This article, written by Cheryl Strauss Einhorn, supports that view.

BTW, incase you didn't know it, Einhorn is "Barrons"'s regular weekly commodities columnist. Up until very recently, she has been bearish on nearly everything. In fact, her one-sided negative coverage of gold has usually inspired my disapproval. -The Stranger






June 21, 1999




Banzai! What's good for Japan... .


By Cheryl Strauss Einhorn


Commodity prices may be bottoming, in part because low prices are proving
their own best cure for curtailing supply. But is there hope for higher prices,
based upon the demand side of the equation? Yes, says Anirvan Banerji,
co-director of research at the Economic Cycle Research Institute, "the
Japanese economy has bottomed."

Certainly, the recent Japanese GDP number looked good -- surprisingly so -- at
1.9% growth for the first quarter. And while it's likely that this estimate will be
revised downward, a Japanese comeback would be good news for the
commodities markets.

The economically sensitive base metals could be among the beneficiaries.
Historically, Japan has consumed about 21% of the world's nickel, 14% of the
tin and 13.5% of the aluminum produced each year, according to CRU
International. In addition, Japan is key to the health of the former Asian Tigers,
such as Indonesia and Thailand, where commodity consumption had been
aggressively growing.

Why does Banerji think that a Japanese recovery is under way? In part,
because his institute's Japanese Long Range Gauge, which is made up of
indicators that anticipate cyclical turns by up to a year, has turned up decisively.
The index has now risen steadily for four months, and its smoothed annualized
growth rate has soared to 8.8%. The improvement is broad-based, driven by
every component of the gauge.

Among them: consumer sentiment, which just reached its highest level since the
fourth quarter of 1996, and housing starts, which jumped to an 11-month high.

Banerji says that, in 1996's fourth quarter, the index correctly predicted Japan's
economic downturn. "Because the index's upturn now is pronounced, pervasive
and moderately persistent, it is clearly forecasting a business cycle upturn," he
maintains.

He hastens to add, however, that this doesn't mean that Japan's structural
problems have been resolved. Most were present even before the current
recession began. They didn't trigger the recession, says Banerji, nor should a
business cycle require their complete resolution.

Other leading indicators, which anticipate activity by a half-year, support the
findings of the Economic Cycle Research Institute Index. For instance,
Japanese stock prices are moving higher, which is consistent with an upturn in
the business cycle. Japanese business failures have dropped, falling to their best
level in a decade. And machinery orders are at a 12-month high.

Other economic indicators are sending ambiguous -- but no longer negative --
signals. For example, Japan's Index of Manufacturing Overtime Worked has
risen above its November 1998 low. The Index of the Operating Rate of
Manufacturing has hit a 13-month high and Non-Dwelling Building Starts have
jumped to an eight-month peak.

Hence, the movements of Japan's leading economic indicators are strongly,
moderately or weakly supportive of a business cycle upturn. None of the
leading indicators are in a downturn any longer.

The final piece of the puzzle, coincident indicators, which show where the
economy is now, are mixed. Unemployment remains high; retail sales, weak.
But industrial production is bouncing back, as are wages and employment. The
result: Here, too, the worst appears to be over. If the Japanese recovery is for
real, commodity price growth may be, too.
USAGOLD
Cavan Man...
Have you noticed in all the discussion about forgiving Third Word debt no mention is made who is going absorb this forgiven debt. The money is owed to somebody, is it not? Are these somebodies willing to just forego this loss? Probably not. Then who will absorb the loss of this $70 billion dollars?

The IMF?

The Banks?

The Governments?

The Taxpayer?

Ah yes...the Taxpayer! But in which country?

Once again we confront an awesome and telling silence from G-7. Is the silence because G-7 doesn't want the American people to find out who's going to shoulder the burden? Why do I get the feeling that the Europeans and Japanese have not become overly generous in this regard? (Or am to believe that the Europeans are willing to shoulder the rebuilding of Kosovo and forgive third world debt? These are some wealthy, if not prudent, people.) Why do I think that this bailout is going to somehow fall back on the American taxpayer either directly or via the printing press?

All the while Tony Blair twitters about talking about this as something that "we" should do, nay are bound to. I always suspect his "we's." They somehow always translates to "you's" with Tony shouting encouragement from the sidelines and the "dumb jock" Americans going out to knock heads.

I have this picture in my mind of Europe and Japan furiously digging a hole -- shovels and dirt flying. America unsuspecting, and unaware of the hole digging, has its back to it....... and smiling in all his Sunday morning earnestness, Tony Blair is getting ready to shove us in.

I would like to see a clear delineation of who is going to absorb this debt in terms of percentages for each of the G-7 countries without subtrefuge and obfuscation.

In fact, Congress should demand it before approval and the American people should be made well aware of what their share of the burden will be. Somehow I think that this is precisely what Congress will do.

$70 billion is alot of money even in Everett Dirksen's book.
MOZ
IMF Gold
As a add on to a post below,I remember reading on Le Metropole Cafe a couple of months back,that the Administration would try to get the IMF gold sale approval through Congress by tacking it on the Budget.I'm not familiar with US budgetry processes though.Also I thought the IMF really did'nt have any gold of its own,rather it was pledged gold from member countries.The question I have is which are the member countries who are going to supply the gold for sale.If it were England their not going to have much gold left at this rate and anyway don't they need a minimum requirement of 300 tons for when they join Euroland.I think the Frence and Germans are going to need heavy arm twisting to sell their gold.Does that mean the US is going to be the one selling its reseves to bail the IMF out?
USAGOLD
Moz...
On the IMF bill procedure: The administration can try to tack it on to the Budget Bill, if there is one coming up, but the House does not have to accept the tactic. Don't forget, Congress has expressed some disapproval on the gold sale question especially at the Committee level where the legislation is written. In fact Rep. Saxton who's committee is responsible has vehemently denounced the sales. In the 1970s, it was easy to get both the U.S. and IMF gold sales through Congress because the gold constituency was very small and weak -- in fact non-exsistent. Now it is fairly large and very vocal. I would encourage our readers to contract their representatives and express their disapproval of this sale. I don't know the percentages when the gold was first contributed to IMF but the U.S. by far contributed the lion's share. So this is the American people's gold that they want to dump at $260 per ounce. We have the right to protect it.

On the question of where the gold is going to come from: It's already there contributed afer World War II via the Bretton Woods Agreement. Few people know that John Maynard Keynes, the father of modern economic socialism, was an advisor to Franklin Roosevelt, the brains behind the IMF, the World Bank, deficit spending and the debt economy. I know some would consider that unfair but that's my reading of history. The rejoinder is always Keynes wanted these debts from the lean years paid back in the full years. But you see what we've gotten instead -- this last $70 billion bailout on the latest in a long skein. So there will be no further gold contributions from G7 members.
MOZ
IMF Gold
Thanks USAGOLD
FOA
"Thinking Through The Thoughts"
http://www.smh.com.au/news/9906/19/national/national4.htmlALL,
I had considered writing many letters (posts) to address each of the different questions / concepts posed on this forum. This was as a similar process that Another used to get readers to view and analysis events in a different light, using their own concepts. However, this subject is
now much to large and all consuming for brief points of comment. We have reached a time when "everyone" has seen the obvious management of gold prices and accepts this as fact. Only a few years ago, most investors considered the gold market as a "somewhat free" supply / demand situation and invested using that premise. As Another pointed out that "events" would prove all things so do we witness the evolution of investor logic into the realm of "reality"!


Gold: Saving Real Money In A Time Of Transition

I am going to offer a series of posts (chapters) starting at the "beginning". We will use simple logic and common terms to explain "what has happened" along this "journey through time". Another will edit it for direction (as he has this post). This will be a long process, and I hope it will
offer a real value for "thoughtful minds". As many are now starting to discover that most of the Western ideas of gold investment were flawed from the beginning, so to will they find their present (gold) portfolios "unprepared" for the storm that approaches! With that I leave you with a portion
from the "Sydney Morning Herald" and a quote from Another.


---------Miners and prospectors at the historic town of Kalgoorlie, 550 kilometres east of Perth, said big operators were sacking staff and marginal mines were facing closure as gold plummeted to around $US260 ($400) an ounce.
One high-profile prospector, Mark Creasey, said this week that although Australia's$5 billion gold industry had experienced periods of economic gloom in the past, this was its darkest day. "It is the quality of the gloom that makes
the difference: pitch-black and horrible. This is the worst downturn I have ever seen."------------


""""Your wealth, it not as large as this paper money say it is!"""""" Another



I will offer my first chapter as soon as possible.
Thanks FOA

ET
From Yourdon's forum

Hey all - I saw this at Yourdon's forum. Might be of some interest to those wishing to get a handle on how it all works.

Article follows;

From the Jeff Rense show at www.sightings.com

Jeff Rense ~ Okay. We are back. Let's go back up to Jim in Seattle listening in on
KRKO. Go ahead. One more question, Jim, if you like.

Caller - Thank you. David, we've just got a few minutes here and maybe take time
after the break here at 8:00 and go on with this question, I hope, if you talk about it.
I've heard you speak about the Federal Reserve (David: Yes.) in the United States and
the unique way that it mystifies and hoodwinks the American public but escpecially
when you talk about in your unique way the national debt or the budget debate as being
nothing more than fresh air. And if you could elaborate on that at great length I think the
people listening would benefit.

Jeff Rense ~ You know, why don't we do this. Let's do that money story. It's a lengthy
story as Jim said. We're gonna start on it now, but you've got some great lines, David,
and that's really the mechanism by which this whole thing is held together and
manipulated. It's money and the fact that every individual needs it.

David Icke ~ Yeah. I tell ya, and we go back to what we were talking about teachers
earlier. I spoke in Vancouver earlier this year and when I was talking about this I
noticed one guy got up and left at the back of the theatre. And after I was finished the
guy who put up the whole meeting, he said, "You upset a friend of mine." I said,
"Really? In what way?" He said, "When you were talking about the money, and how
money didn't exist, and what a great con it was, and that we're actually paying interest
on fresh air, he walked out because he said it doesn't work like that." And I said, "How
does it work?" And he couldn't really tell me. He says, "But I'll tell you what that guy
does for a living. He's an economist (DDecker??? nah, can't be...). He's advising
people on the economy and on money etcetera in Vancouver everyday."

And he doesn't know how money's created. We're told first of all that governments
print money. That's the thing we're led to believe. They don't. Money's created in a
very simple way. It's by private banks owned by the same people issuing non existent
money called credit. And so you go to a bank and they'll give you a loan, say a
hundred grand, but all they do at that point is not print any paper or mint any coins or
move any precious metals a single inch. They just type into your account $100,000.
That's all they do. So from that moment on you're paying interest on $100,000 that's
just figures on a screen. And what we've actually done is give complete control over
the creation of money to private banks, which as I show and as others have shown, are
actually under control by the same people.

Now if you look, what is the difference between a boom and a bust, it's one thing.
During a boom there's abundance, jobs, etc. That's when there's enough units in
circulation to allow economic activity to take place that allows that to happen. When
we have a bust or depression, the only difference between that and a boom is the
number of units of exchange in circulation is far less therefore there's not enough money
to go around to exchange for goods and services and create that economic activity.
The people who decide how many units of exchange are in circulation or not, in other
words whether we have a boom or a bust, are those banks who decide if they're going
to let lots of loans go at low interest or not many loans at high interest. And, of course,
the Federal Reserve, this European owned fascist organization, set interest rates in this
country. So basically, you have a boom. You get people in debt and all that stuff. And
then you have a bust and you reap all the wealth of all the bankruptcies and what have
you. The real wealth. Land. Buildings. Businesses. And you get that in exchange for
fresh air.

Jeff Rense ~ And then you set it up and start all over again. When we continue David
Icke will talk about how banks can loan money. And you say banks can't loan more
money than they have on deposit, can they? Well, we're going to talk about fractional
banking and all of that as we continue here at Sightings on the Radio here tonight with
England's David Icke. And we'll be back after the news.

Jeff Rense ~ And we are back, talking with England's David Icke whose book "...And
the Truth Shall Set You Free" is considered to be a very dangerous book by some
people. We were talking about banking and the money game and it is the biggest and
probably oldest game there is. When you go into a bank and ask for a loan and you
qualify, whatever qualify means anymore, you're given a certain amount of money. But
are you? Are you given anything? No. Simply digits are changed in your bank account
so to speak or a check is cut to you. Again all numbers. What are the rules, the alleged
rules, David, that a bank has to follow in order to make loans to the public about
money on deposit and assets and so forth?

David Icke ~ Well, there is virtually none now. I mean, as a rule of thumb, you could
say that they have to have ten percent of what they loan but in truth they often need far
less than that. We go back to this whole scenario. The Knights Templar and the
1200-1300's, they started loaning people money that didn't exist and then charging
interest on it. Going back that far. You can go back to Babylon and the ancient world
and find the same thing.

And it's always been used as a form of control because if you can get people in debt,
you have got them under control. You can have companies all over the world, and
small businesses particularly, having to pay back interest on money that doesn't exist,
loans to the bank to keep the businesses going then you are for a start inflating the price
of every single product that is sold because everyone in the production process of that
product, from making it, to transporting it, to marketing it, to selling it, is adding extra to
their cost to service interest on money that doesn't exist which they borrowed. So that
combination of people in debt and higher prices than necessary means you're
pressuring people to serve your system to earn the money to pay these prices you're
inflating and this debt that you're creating.

And this can be seen in America and all over the world at the government level where
fantastic amounts of taxpayers' money every year is going straight into the coffers of the
Federal Reserve banks to pay back interest on fresh air. People go hungry and people
go homeless. I mean, this is such a con it's unbelievable. It's possible because America,
like Britain, is a one party state. If you at whether the Republicans or whether the
Democrats are in, or the Labor or Conservative in Britain, the same agenda keeps
unfolding. And this agenda is for the global centralization of power at a very, very
complete level. And fundamental to that is control of money because that controls
peoples' ability to purchase, ability to live their lives.

So if you go back to the time of William of Orange in Britain who was brought over to
be king of England by a secret society among others called the Orange Order from
Holland, when it's the Orange Order who is very much involved in the conflict, and
what have you, in northern Ireland to this day. And what William of Orange was
brought over to do was to create the Bank of England. And he signed a charter. I think
it was in 1964. And this banking system started to motor. And the Federal Reserve, of
course, as it has been well documented, was actually created by European bankers not
least the House of Rothschild.

And what governments can do because they're the government is print its own money
interest free and put it into circulation interest free so that money takes on its positive
aspect which is as a unit of exchange for exchanging contributions to society. What
happens, however, because the people that are controlling the politicians own the
banks. Governments borrow money from private banking cartels and pay interest on it.

'All this interest....this national debt.' Excuse me? It's fresh air. It doesn't exist. 'We
must reduce the deficit.' There is no deficit. It's fresh air. It's a complete con. And what
has happened, of course -- you just look at the Presidents of the United States as an
example -- you need kookooland amounts of money to run for President. Who
provides that money? The people that run the banking and business communtiy are the
same people and you get paid by the piper. You dance to his tune when you're in office
so this legislation has gone on being passed over the few centuries which allows banks
to lend what they don't have. Very simple example...

Jeff Rense ~ How do you phrase it, David, "Never did.." You've got a great line. The
money line. "Never did exist. Doesn't now."

David Icke ~ Oh yeah. We are up to our necks in debt on money that has never, does
not, and will never exist. And if anyone doesn't believe that a few people can't control
the world, they should just look at the power we have given these bankers over the
control of our lives. We're in a situation where the politicians have passed legislation
that allows banks to lend fresh air, money they don't have and get rewarded for it and if
you look at the way it's unfolded over the years. It means because of this turkey shoot
idea whereby you create a boom, you get people into debt, you get governments into
debt, you get individuals and businesses into debt.

And people say, "Oh, it's boom time. Well, I'll have a bigger car, bigger house. We'll
have two hoildays this year cause things are going well. I haven't got the money, but
things are going well. I'll be able to service the debt so we'll just have a loan." And then
businesses say, "There's all this kind of economic activity. People want to buy our
products. There's lots of money in circulation. We'll borrow more from the bank to get
better machinery and then we'll increase production." And then at that point the people
who put the money into circulation, take it out again. They stop making as many loans.
They make sure interest rates go up and the Federal Reserve, I repeat, has complete
control of that. And basically units of exchange are taken out of circulation. People
haven't got the same amount of money to spend. Economic activity falls. The demand
for products falls. But those loans which have been taken out during the boom time still
have to be serviced and not only that the interest rates you're paying on them now are
higher. So people go bankrupt. People lose their money. People lose their businesses.
And the banks get all that wealth that does exist.

This boom-bust con which the economists on the big CNN say, "This is just this point
on the economic cycle. It's very natural." It's complete manipulation. It means the real
wealth of the world has been sucked to the top of the pyramid which is why the real
wealth of the world is owned by so few people. And so we're in a situation now where
we've given complete control over whether we have a boom or a bust to a handful of
people who run the global banking system and the global political system and the
transnational corporations.

And I just say to people, "If you think this is all nonsense and actually money does exist
and this is all not happening, then you try en masse tomorrow morning taking out of the
bank what you theoretically have on deposit. If everyone in the world tried to take out
tomorrow the money they theoretically have on deposit in the banks they'd be slamming
the doors at half past nine because they have not got it. And yet that's the debt that
we're up to our neck in. And that's what the third world debt is. The third world debt
which is crucifying environmentally and in human terms what we call the third world is
debt on money that has never, does not, and will never exist.

Jeff Rense ~ That may be the most insidious of all the debt structures, what is
happening to the third world. I know people who live in Brazil and are Brazilian tell me
that Brazil is not owned by Brazilians anymore, it's owned by the transnational
corporations.
Cavan Man
ET
"All Work and No Pay" by Paul Hien in USAGOLD archives is also telling and comprehensive on this subject; an easy read.
Cavan Man
To: FOA & Another
I have recently read "In The FOOTSTEPS....". I have heard it reported that both of you gentlemen have occasionally been ridiculed at different forums for your contributions. As one of western heritage who has made the effort to understand eastern culture and the workings of the eastern mind so to speak, IMHO, your THOUGHTS and running commentary make perfectly good sense; from an eastern perspective that is. Hubris is a fatal flaw for all who possess it. I sometimes think that hubris is part of the characteristic make up of the typical American whether one realizes it or not. Your timing might be off and the critical path of unfolding events might not be consistent with your THOUGHTS but nonetheless, each of you have made priceless contribution to those who linger here. Simple words cannot express my humble gratitude. I am a willing student who is ready to take up the challenge you issue. Thank you.
USAGOLD
With respect to my earlier post on Congress and IMF gold sales....
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/1999/jun/18/508948018.html"It requires congressional approval. It ain't going to happen," (Sen. Richard) Bryan, D-Nev., said today from Washington.

-------

That's confidence!
FOA
(No Subject)
Cavan Man (6/19/99; 10:38:45MDT - Msg ID:7807)

Hello Cavan Man,
Thank you for your comments about these writings. I hope I did not give the wrong impression in reference to timing my future posts? This will take many days (weeks, months?) to offer as each section will be reread and edited.

I was asked to do this because it's time to deliver a clean road map of this long discussion. We are truly near the end of this "new era of gold". By the time I complete and offer the last chapter, the markets will be very loud with the noise of change. This message will then be old
news.

So, we will for the last time, walk this trail of gold and discuss how so many lost their way. At the end, our group will gather to view the path that is directly ahead. After such a trip everyone will clearly see that this road was well traveled by today's world investors.
Thank You FOA
AEL
Cavan Man
"Could you provide a little background on the events of 1923 in Germany to fill in the blanks and for accurate comparison's sake?"

Wish I could, but I am less a student of history than I ought to be. I just thought that passage (and indeed the whole article from which it was extracted, by LaRouche) was pretty interesting.
AEL
silver


I have read with interest Koan's recent posts re Comex silver and silver in
general: "This silver drama is just old fashion supply and demand -- not
sexy, but solid." This moved me to re-read Ted Butler's articles on silver;
and if you have not read them yourself, you ought to (see excerpts from one
of them, below). I also did some searching on the kitco site and ran into a
run of posts from "Rhody" with some interesting ideas about silver (see
excerpts below). I do not at all agree with him that "gold is dead" (!), but
I am reconsidering the possibility that silver may shine sooner and perhaps
brighter than gold. The fundamental supply/demand picture would seem to make
dramatic revaluation inevitable and, while other influences may make such
revaluation of gold likewise inevitable, it is possible that the Forces That
Be are powerful enough to string this game along for many more years. (Or
IS it possible? My inner debate continues..... :) ) -- Alan


Here's a tidbit or two from butler:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/butler111498.html

The Permanent Shortage Of Silver, By Ted Butler

Half a century ago, at the end of World War II, total known stocks of silver
amounted to ten billion ounces ... Today, known stocks of silver have shrunk
over 95%, to maybe a half a billion ounces. The nine and a half billion ounce
draw down in total silver inventory, was the result of the persistent
shortfall between supply and demand, which continues to this day. Not
coincidentally, the current 200 million-ounce annual deficit in silver
mirrors the long-term trend line average...... In summary, we have an
indispensable ingredient of modern life in a structural supply deficit that
has been fifty years in the making, with no chance of real balance except at
prices many times current price levels, which in turn are at an inflation
adjusted 50 year low. That alone would represent a scenario that was bullish
beyond extreme. In order to distill my message I have intentionally avoided
reference to the things people normally discuss in the debate on silver, such
as, inflation, currencies, war, the stock market, hedge funds, Y2K, world
economic crises, etc. I've tried to stick to bedrock fundamentals, industrial
production, consumption and inventories.

[interestingly enough, in the passage to follow Butler waxes very
FOA/Another-like... "all the paper will burn"... -- AEL]

Aside from the obvious danger to the shorts, I think it is the paper longs
that are in real jeopardy from the huge short position. How so? With the real
silver long-term situation so tight as to leave you in awe; the last thing
this market needs is the largest paper short position in history. Given the
historical precedence, when the crunch comes, paper longs will not be able to
convert to physical, as their contracts proclaim. It is just not possible.
There is too much paper and too little real metal. In the crunch, at the
watering hole, paper won't hold up. Not COMEX paper, not any paper. Then we
will learn the difference between paper silver and silver. I can't say when
this will happen; only that it will happen. In fact, I can guarantee it will
be the biggest force majeur in history.

if my writings convince anyone to convert even a small amount of money into
real physical silver at current levels, I know I will have done them a favor.
If things get ugly, it may be what keeps them alive economically. If things
stay rosy, the permanent shortage will bestow a windfall. In any event, the
long-term risk reward is spectacular. A thousand ounce cash position can only
lose a negligible amount in the worst, worst case. In a best case it could
buy you a car, or even a house.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a few of Rhody's posts ---

Date: Sat May 22 1999 21:14
rhody (@ Stair Maker: ) ID#413307:
Copyright � 1999 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Please relax. My figures show there are still about 22 months of silver
stockpiles left above ground. COMEX warehouses contain about 80 million oz
and there are another 20 million or so sitting in the U.S. Strategic
Stockpile. So the world will not run out of silver this year. The last
figures I have seen suggest that this years deficit in supply will be about
100 million oz, down from 196 million oz last year. But this 100 million oz
figure does not take into consideration the lease demand. You see, silver
leases are now averaging 3% this year. If there is a 1000 million oz lease
overhang, then 3% of 1000 million oz is an additional 30 million oz of
drawdowns from stocks, and if rates spike, this would balloon. I can almost
guarantee that this 30 million oz of silver interest is not included in the
demand figures, because everybody knows that leasing is not a factor in the
gold or silver market. Right? In fact leasing is never mentioned on CNBC,
WSJ, or by stock brokers. My ex-financial analyst had never heard of pm
leases. Leasing is a poorly kept secret in the investment community. Fewer
still appreciate their significance. Your graphs show a diminishing deficit,
but as we approach zero supplies, lease rates will rise, and the silver
interest will balloon demand. The above all presupposes that we do not have a
deflationary collapse that reduces demand for all commodities to near zero.
AIMVHO.

Date: Thu Apr 22 1999 11:15
rhody (SILVER) ID#408236:
Copyright � 1999 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

In 1998, silver demand was 822.2 million oz, while supply was 630.0 million
oz. This left a deficit of 192.2 million oz. Since the price of silver ended
1998 under $5 per oz, it must have been leased silver that made up this
deficit. This meant that almost 200 million oz of silver was borrowed to turn
a deficit supply situation into a surplus, with a continuation of the silver
bear market. Assumption: This 200 million oz lease was added to a lease
overhang that now totals at leaset 1 billion oz. Lease rates in 1999 spiked
starting in mid January, reached 17%, and then declined to a present level of
3 to 5%, say 4%. This means the lease overhang must be financed with physical
purchases of silver that will total 40 million oz by year end. The projected
supply deficit for 1999 is 144 million oz but with a 40 million oz lease
interest added, the total 1999 demand is likely to be closer to 180 million
oz. Physical offtakes of silver rises by 10 million oz for each 1% rise in
lease rates. 357 million oz of silver were available in surface stockpiles at
the beginning of this year. Of this 80 million high visible oz are posted at
COMEX and an additional 20 million oz remains in the United States Strategic
Stockpile. This strategic stockpile is earmarked for production of American
Silver Eagles by the US mint. At the present rate of drawdowns, there will be
just 173 million oz of silver remaining above ground by end of year, and this
will be disappearing at the rate of 15 million oz per month. AT this rate, on
Dec 16, 2000, there will be zero silver stockpiles in the world. My
expectation is that at the end of Jan. this year, the roll-over of the
Buffett spike silver will again drive lease rates up, and this time the rates
will remain at double digit levels for the remainder of year 2000. This will
drive up physical silver consumption by an additional 60 million oz over the
year ( to finance the lease overhang ) or an additional 5 million oz per
month This means that total surface stockpiles of silver may be exhausted as
early as Sept. 2000. The above analyis makes two assumptions:

1. There is a 1 billion oz lease overhange
2. Lease rates are demand driven.

Date: Thu Mar 25 1999 06:03
rhody (@ Greenstone Gold: ) ID#411440:
Copyright � 1999 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I don't think an IMF sale of 10 milion oz of gold will be sufficient to bail
out the shorts. That's about 300 tonnes, and the short overhang is 10 to 50
times larger than that. It would take the entire IMF stockpile to cover the
minimum estimated short overhang. If the short overhang is as large as 14000
tonnes, it would take the entire ECB member bank gold reserves to cover. Or
to put it another way, the US government would have to hand over all its gold
reserves, and the ECB about 30% of theirs to allow these funds to cover.
Since the Fed and the ECB have been the principle sources of leased gold, I
suspect all the remaining gold reserves of all western CBs will be required
to cover the lease overhang. Or the world financial system will collapse.
This is why gold cannot be allowed to rise. This is why I buy silver now, not
gold. Gold is dead. It cannot be allowed to rise lest all paper burn. Maybe
the world will remonetize silver. Gold is dead.

Date: Mon May 24 1999 05:57
rhody (@ mozel: your 3:29. I see one big problem with your) ID#411440:
Copyright � 1999 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

speculation about the United States remonetizing silver. There is not enough
silver in the world to do it. Even at $100 per oz, I don't think there is
enough to make both coin and satisfy industrial demand, and settle the lease
overhang. The reason the United States demonetized silver, was industrial
use absorbed all available supply ( except for a small collector's coin
fabrication activity like the silver eagle ) in the early part of this
century, and has continued to consume virtually all and then some to this
date. Besides, the US stockpile is only 20 million oz.


Cavan Man
AEL
Runaway inflation ruled Germany in those years. The enormous debt in the form of war reparations from WWI was a contributing factor. The debt crushed Germany which is exactly what the Allies wanted; a foolish mistake! I don't have the time to research completely-sorry.
DD
Y2k - The Big One That Got Away??
I have a question in responce to ET and FOA's post. What might be the potential outcomes for the money center banks if they have Y2k problems that screw up their ability to move "money" electronically? It seems to me that, with all the money that is being spent to fix the computers by the banks, that getting the computers working properly must be important for the banks. Is it possible that in thier greed they overlooked the ramifications of Y2k? My data indicates that we're headed for big global economic problems because of Y2k. Is there some way that the big boys can benefit from all this or did they get caught with their pants down? Your comments would be appreciated. Interesting times, huh? Best, DD
CoBra(too)
Bubbles?
It has been a long and controversial week for markets -bubbles or no bubbles, that is the question, AG?- Not withstanding triple witching on friday, currencies (ECB being asked to help push Yen lower) and PM's - after a false (while, true, the Swiss were to their amendment!)rally early on friday, crushed to keep the paper (virtual-un-) reality intact.
To be in US$'s, or not to be - is the fundamental question! While everybody in the world stands to lose (value?) on their major reserve currency (paper) asset by not playing according to the rules of the largest debtor nation, which also happens to be the last resort of consumeris'm, alas depending on imports, not only of credit, to sustain the bubble whealth effect in order to prolong the status quo of the new era goldilocks economics, becomes victimized by the "greenmail" of the "US-$-Globalization Va(e)mpire".
Empires have a tendency to fall, bubbles burst and new era economics fail. Boom and bust is historically proven - as even Herbert Hoover contemplated after the fact - the excessive credit expansion of the mid 20's led to the (bust)depression. Now we arrived at a war of currency (paper?) supremacy. Is it the sibling Euro, which has to be discredited at all cost, or is it the war against gold - the manipulation of the POG becomes more obvious and ridiculous by the day - which has started this seemingly end game? Or is it the excesses of unlimited credit, supplied by the money center banks to free roaming capital in form of derivative "hedge" funds sloshing around the globe in order to seek even more better paying "sure" bets to the detriment of real business.
If greenmail has become the name of the game - as ANOTHER said: 'Your wealth is not as large as your paper say's it is"- Gruenspan (eventually) corrodes - gold will shine forever!


AG was signalling an everlasting bail-out for markets - as he proved 1987, 97 and 98. IMHO, he only inflated the asset bubble, mainly in the US!








ET
DD

Hey DD - thanks for joining the forum. Interesting times, eh?

You wrote;

'I have a question in responce to ET and FOA's post. What might be the potential outcomes for the
money center banks if they have Y2k problems that screw up their ability to move "money"
electronically?'

Yes - this is the question. I haven't heard any announcements from money center banks that they are compliant. It would seem at this late date that if they were finished, we would be hearing about it. Greenspan said the banks had to be 100% compliant for the system to function. It all seems quite tenuous at this point.

'It seems to me that, with all the money that is being spent to fix the computers by the
banks, that getting the computers working properly must be important for the banks. Is it possible
that in thier greed they overlooked the ramifications of Y2k?'

I believe nearly everyone, including those that run the monetary system, has completely underestimated the situation. If electronic commerce goes down, the world's economy as we know it goes with it. When you get right down to the basics of the problem it is somewhat ironic that those that have the most to gain by perpetuating the current system have been so apathetic. Sign of the times perhaps. We've all been corrupted to one extent or another.

'My data indicates that we're headed for
big global economic problems because of Y2k. Is there some way that the big boys can benefit from
all this or did they get caught with their pants down?'

I believe this is a total 'pants down' situation. Arrogance reigns supreme. I'm sure some will benefit greatly in the coming months. I'm not so sure it will be the 'big boys'. Thanks for the response, DD. I'm going with the 'from chaos comes opportunity' mindset.

ET
ET
DD

Hey DD - here is something of a follow up to the issue in question. This is a post to csy2k by Greg Caton of soybean.com/Lumen Foods. I think he is pretty much correct in his assessment of the 'big boys'.

Post follows;

Elitist Disconnect Syndrome by Greg Caton, Lumen Foods (soybean.com):

* If Y2K is going to be so bad.... why is Hillary.... running for the Senate next year?

For the same reason that Bill Gates, Scott McNealy, Ross Perot, and Peter De Jager
are singing the Opera of Mild Inconveniences in F Major. We'll just call it EDS for
short: Elitist Disconnect Syndrome.

I asked a close Y2K programmer friend of mine just why such a monumental
disconnect could exist among higher "ups" who should know better. His reply?

Once you achieve a certain level of authority in this society, you are almost guaranteed
to be cut off from vital information at the bottom. We have relegated our most
important technical functions to men and women who are now veritable "technological
field hands..." No matter that we pay these field hands $50 - $150k per year.

Most Y2K programmers I know, in fact the vast majority, are highly negative about the
outcome of Y2K. Negative... as in 90% expect Y2K to usher in economic conditions
that are worse than the Depression of the '30's.... Those very same programmers will
tell you that their bosses are clueless. And those very same programmers will tell you
that they intend to KEEP their bosses clueless. Why? There is no reward for reporting
bad news. These people really ARE modern day Cassandras, living in a modern-day
Troy: they know the Truth, but no one will believe them.

Recent developments in our cultural and pollitical standards support this: If we support
and coddle a President, for example, who commits perjury, obstruction of justice... and
some would say murder, with no legal consequence of any consequence.... why should
it surprise us that programmers are uniformly telling good news to the boardroom to
protect their ass?

If it's good for the Prez... why isn't it good for an $80,000 a year programmer who just
wants to keep his job until December? I mean... it's only a little white lie, right? Is
keeping your job for six more months too much to ask?

After all, Clinton lied HIS ass off to his HIS job for TWO MORE years, right?

But even from a broader prospective, there is something universal and timeless about
the EDS phenomena: in every major crisis that involves a technical issue (and the
Titanic comes to mind because it's now fresh and current in the public mind) is it ever
the guys on top who are first to discover there's a gaping hole in the bottom of the hull?

Or is it more likely that the elites, be it a Bill Gates or a Bill Clinton, are so busy sniffing
the ether of their own success, perched on top of their metaphorical skyscrapers,
thousands of bureaucratic layers removed from the foundation that supports them, that
they themselves are clueless?

You go figure it out.
The guys in the trenches... (you know... the ones we are expecting to bail us out of this
Y2K mess...) already have.
AEL
Y2K Again

DD writes: "Is it possible that in thier [the bankers] greed they overlooked
the ramifications of Y2k? .... Is there some way that the big boys can
benefit from all this or did they get caught with their pants down?"

Mehopes they got caught with their pants down. I would love nothing more than
to see the NOPWO (the New Oligarchic/Plutocratic World Order -- my new
acronym) get blindsided in their (possible) bid for an authoritarian
"Cashless Society" by cascading Y2K-related banking and electronic funds
transfer breakdowns... ha! 'course it would be ugly, so I am not serious
about this, but I do get a certain malicious pleasure out of imagining them
getting bitten BAD by this thing.

Recent threads and articles on the vulnerability of the U.S. and world
banking system, including (the last) a scary recent one from the BIS:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000Wyn
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000xcu
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000yZ7
http://www.fdic.gov/banknews/fils/1999/Y2Ksurveyreport.pdf
http://www.bis.org/ ongoing/contplan.pdf

Between 1) significant and perhaps disastrous imported data problems (a real
risk, see http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/results_.cfm/Imported_Data), and 2)
unfulfillable demands for cash (seemingly nearly inevitable), and 3) a dozen
other imponderables (telecommunications, power grid, Global Positioning
System (that's 22 Aug 99!), water/sewage, etc., etc.), it is easy to imagine
the banking system AS WE HAVE KNOWN IT not surviving the next 12 months.

I agree with ET that "nearly everyone has completely underestimated the
situation".

Do you still have cash in the bank? If yes, why?

-- alan

PS: Gary North just did a nice summation of the bank situation;
here's an excerpt -------

http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/5082

Banking Industry Is the Furthest Behind

The standard media analysis is that the banking industry is the most
advanced of all the industries in y2k compliance. This is incorrect. It
is the furthest behind.

But haven't the banks spent more money than any other? Probably.
Then aren't they the furthest ahead? No. Why not? Here's why.

1. It has the oldest code, except for the U.S. military.

2. It has the most widely distributed code -- from central banks to
depositors' accounts -- except for telecommunications.

3. It is an entirely digital industry -- numbers constitute the whole
game. Even the prices of the assets used to collateralize the industry's
debts to depositors are denominated in terms of the industry's own
numbers (money). If the numbers collapse as banks fail, so do the
market prices of the collateralized assets -- but not the debts to
depositors.

4. The number of zeros in the industry's transactions is enormous, so
that small percentage errors with other people's money can bankrupt
the institutions that made the error.

5. It is the most international of all industries.

6. Of the banks in 190 "nations," most have done very little and
started late.

7. Bad data are transmitted from one compurer through others,
which in turn pass along the errors.

8. It is fractionally reserved: vast short-term debt to depositors,
secured by illiquid assets.

9. It is dependent for much of its profits on the financial futures
markets: more fractional reserves, meaning vast credit issued to the
likes of Long-Term Capital Managent.

10. It must settle its inter-bank accounts daily -- no 60-day wiggle
room: the threat of cascading cross-defaults.

11. It must have 100% compliance -- Alan Greenspan.
Cavan Man
AEL
Truth is anathema to corporate executives and most "managers" at all levels; always has been. If you wish to convey the truth, you must spin it through a filter(s) which usually distorts the message.
Aristotle
Reply to 'something else' from last night
"something else (6/18/99; 21:26:56MDT - Msg ID:7789)
Ok. I'm lost on something here. How does the BOE and the IMF hope to "provide relief to poor countries" by selling gold? Do they mean that they intend to use the gold sale proceeds to in some way provide debt relief for those countries that can't "pay their bills" (as in what?; service the debt they issued, similar to the bond issued by the US?) If so, I don't understand how this is supposed to help. If I were to sell my gold bullion, how would that help you pay your debts? What am I missing?" -------------------

Hey there, Something Else: maybe we need to look at this a little differently. I have had the pleasure of conversation with an individual who has given me a fresh perspective of both real money and modern money --real money being, of course, Gold; and modern money being everything else. Specifically, modern money is little more than an extension of people's freedom to contract with one another. For more insight on this, please see ET's post (6/19/99; 10:07:10MDT - Msg ID:7805) which is mechanically correct, although it seems to put unnecessary emphasis on the sinister element (no offense meant to you, Good Sir, ET!)

So in regard to your question, how could selling this paltry 300 tonnes of Gold in any stretch of the imagination help write down 90 billion dollars of defaulted debt? The problem most people have is that they get stuck viewing this Gold at spot value which would yield only about 3 billion dollars. Perhaps this is what we need to do...think of this write down as a contract renegotiation in which an intrepid party steps forward and says it will absorb this entire cash loss on behalf of these poor countries IF AND ONLY IF 300 tonnes of physical Gold can be delivered as an incentive. To the world it may look like they just took an 87 billion dollar bath. To that party however, they might view it as a statement that they have bought Gold at $9,000 per ounce. The world wouldn't never know the difference....unless they show up at the BOE auctions offering big bucks for Gold in full view of the world. But of course, we all know THAT will never happen... ;-)

Contracts are amazing things. I'm about to unleash a series of posts that I hope will help a few people gain a somewhat improved view of the world as we almost know it. Stay tuned!

Gold. Earn you some. ---Aristotle
mike55
Father's Day
I want to wish all the Dads who frequent this site a Happy Father's Day tomorrow!

The last couple of days have been spent celebrating the 12th and 15th birthdays of two of my sons, while the oldest has been busy painting great-grandmother's house. Along with a small birthday gift of this modern age, both boys received a 1/10 gold Eagle to continue their wealth building. They understand and believe.

The sleepover parties, bonfires, music, games, and seemingly endless energy of many boys in the house these past two days has given me opportunity to reflect on the gift and responsibility of fatherhood. It also caused me to really appreciate what my father has done for me over the years through his guidance, support, and understanding. As is true for most children, the wisdom of a lifetime that a father shares can never be fully repaid, and is not meant to be, for that is the way of life in this world. We can, however, honor our fathers daily and on the special day set aside for them.

Tomorrow, my family and brothers will spend the day celebrating Father's Day with my parents. Food, conversation, and time spent together will be the bill of fare. As an added bonus, the weather forecast is wonderful. Over the years, the gifts I have given my Dad have evolved from those first pre-school drawings to golf balls, cigars, and cognac, among other things. While they were all enjoyed and appreciated, I wanted to chose something more lasting this year. As I thought of a suitable gift for my Dad this year, the decision was instantaneous. Tomorrow, in addition to the most important aspect of the day (time spent together), we will present Dad with one ounce of .9999 gold -- what better material gift is there? I think this is a gift that will be appreciated and long remembered.

Again, Happy Father's Day to all Dads here!!!
Richard, Oregon
ET - David Icle
ET (6/19/99; 10:07:10MDT - Msg ID:7805)I read your post with great interest. What can you tell me about David Icle? Have you read his book and if so, is it worth reading? He poses many problems leading to question but does he have views/answers? I will re-read your post again. Thanks!
Tomcat
Mike55

Dear Mike55,

Thanks for your Fathers Day message. Your present of a gold piece to your dad is very symbolic.

Your post caught me a bit off guard. It snapped me out of the financial frame of mind I was in when I read it. It reminded me why I am really coming to this forum; not the love of money or gold but the love and desire for the welfare of my family.
beesting
How the falling spot price of Gold helps to kill a country economically.
http://www.woza.co.za/forum2/jun99/zimdebt18.htmMike-55 #7820; All the fathers in the world want basically what you have. Enjoy it!!

Click above URL for current news release concerning Zimbabwe
Below some excerpts,my remarks in parenthesis.()

For the first time in 20 years Zimbabwe failed to service it's external debt, due to a shortage of foreign currency.(caused in part by a lower price of spot Gold)

Zimbabwe's export market was still dominated by primary commodities with low value-addition and prone to flucuations in international commodity prices.
Zimbabwe's macro economic climate continued to deteriorate with inflation rising from 19 percent in 1997, to an all time record high of 53 percent in March of this year.(Ask anybody in this country if they'd rather use physical paper money,electronic money, or some type of physical Gold money in every day commerce?)
Zimbabwe's key exports, such as tobacco and GOLD, have not been performing well largely because of lower prices for commodities on markets which have a glut.(Or markets which do not truely reflect physical supply and demand.)
(The article explains how a country can get caught between a rock and a hard place thru no fault of their own,and what the IMF does in this situation.).....beesting
Tomcat
Y2k

DD: My opinion is in line with ET's; y2k has caught most off guard. I don't think the question is whether the banking system be ready. Internationally their will be real y2k problems. The question is how to predict the next six months and be ahead of what is before us.

DD and ET: One way the big boys can benefit from y2k is that they can attempt to stay in power. The bubble burst can be blamed on y2k. Also, many companies and banks will not make it. But many will survive and in the end great power will go to the survivors. Even if y2k leads to a disaster it is possible that the US and much of the world will recover fairly quickly (two or three years). This planet is loaded with resources that can be utilized in the post y2k reconstruction period.

AEL: Incredibly helpful post. Thanks
Tomcat
AEL: Silver

Thanks for your post on silver. It was very enlightening. It is very clear that silver should be considered to be part of each person's "preparation portfolio". I do not want to look back on this year and regret that I saw what was coming but mis-estimated the importance of silver.

From the numbers you posted, it seems that the worlds supply of silver is less than that of gold. Could that be possible?

Also, the average family might hold more silver than gold and in rough times silver might turn out to be the common man's currency?

Any more input from anyone on silver would be much appreciated.
Tomcat
USAGOLD

You asked: "Then who will absorb the loss of this $70 billion dollars?"

"Ask not for whom the bill tolls, it tolls for thee."
Cavan Man
Silver
I know less about silver than I do about gold; that's a scary thought! It is my understanding that the metal does not perform well in a deflationary environment. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you.
ET
Cavan Man, Aristotle

Hey all - agreed Aristotle, the piece I posted was unnecessarily sinister. As Cavan Man pointed out, Dr. Hein has been writing similar stuff for years. Of course, so have Mises and Hayek; it is an ongoing problem, this money situation. The situation is similar to those that trade this paper gold. Some call it manipulation but I see it as simply supply and demand. Large institutions have undoubtedly become large institutions because they have been successful at these trades. Of course, it is helpful when they can get the public to absorb any losses. As far as I'm concerned, the people of the world have only themselves to blame for the situation in which they find themselves. It doesn't say much for the world's collective education.

ET
Technician
No oil!!
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlIn regards to the 21 June post in Gold Eagle forum concerning Y2K oil shortage. Must read! Then, look at my Sept/Dec spread chart on my homeweb site. Would have used Jan oil but my program has Y2K bug! Wasn't aware of that until today. What I am looking at has knocked my socks off.
Click on oilspread icon bottom of web site.
ET
Richard

Hey Richard - I know nothing of David Icle. This piece came from www.sightings.com originally. Dr. Hein's views have been posted regularly to gold-eagle as well as here. There is nothing really new about all of this except the fact that the internet has made much information more available to all. This internet thing I believe is another case of those in power getting caught with their collective pants down, similar to y2k. I doubt many saw how quickly this information media would take off. Davidson and Rees-Mogg have written extensively in 'The Sovereign Individual', about how this new information age would eventually change the world. They predicted that nation-states will suffer collectively as individuals become more aware of how the world actually turns. However, nearly everything they have written has not included a sudden shock like y2k possibly taking out great portions of this information infrastructure. Nevertheless, their stuff is a good read. I'm still trying to put all this information in the proper context. I suppose that's why I'm here. Thanks for the response.

ET
The Scot
TO ALL FATHERS
HAPPY FATHERS DAY.......
ET
Tomcat

Hey Tomcat - thanks for the response.

You wrote in part;

'DD and ET: One way the big boys can benefit from y2k is that they can attempt to stay in power.
The bubble burst can be blamed on y2k. Also, many companies and banks will not make it. But
many will survive and in the end great power will go to the survivors. Even if y2k leads to a disaster
it is possible that the US and much of the world will recover fairly quickly (two or three years). This
planet is loaded with resources that can be utilized in the post y2k reconstruction period.'

I have no doubt in my mind about these people trying to stay in power. What they may have to lord over will probably be quite different than today. I agree that the resources are indeed in place to rebuild but we need to ask, what are we to rebuild? This monetary system? I have great doubts that the majority of people will be in any hurry to rebuild a fiat money system after they experience the collapse of this one. Those in power today derive their power from the current system and to sustain or resurrect this power would require the confidence of the majority or it will never happen. As I see it, the average individual will have to want to go into further debt either directly or indirectly to reempower the elite. I would suspect that if a financial collapse does occur, the majority is going to be quite angry over their perceived loss of wealth and will probably not be in any mood to go back to a system that failed them so miserably. However, the idea of something for nothing is still pretty popular. As I mentioned earlier, we've all been corrupted to one extent or another.

This does bring up some other questions. What happens to the financial elite if virtually everyone goes bankrupt? Will we see all this debt repudiated at once? Start from scratch with the holders of debt left holding the bag? Would the new financial elite be the holders of gold? We have seen some nation-states essentially repudiate their debt today. Will this become commonplace? It's getting interesting, Tomcat.

ET
The Scot
FATHERS
May each Father that enjoys this fine forum remind himself this day of the awsome resposnsibility that we have. Most of the social ills of our society, especially those of our young people, can be laid at the feet of fathers neglecting their duty. Duties to be, "An honorable example to our children", "To be the HEAD of our household", "To be a faithful and loving husband". To protect the family from all evil". To plan for the future and be prepared for any event".
Very sincerely, THE SCOT........Have a good day.
USAGOLD
World Financial Systemm Lurches to the Left
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990620/bz.html"In a significant shift towards putting a greater burden on private creditors, the plan suggests that nations in trouble reduce their
net debt payments to the private sector to help lower the amount of public help required." (Reuters article linked above.)

-------------------
From Ron Chernow's "The House of Morgan: An American Banking Dynasty and the Rise of Modern Finance" Simon Schuster, 1990:

"During his talks with the Mexican president, Lamont confronted the dilemma that accompanies every global debt crisis: the victim threatens to default unless he receives more money. What leverage do bankers ultimately have over a defaulting country if not the prospect of new loans? As Lamont later reported to Secretary of State Hughes, Obregon "could not see the advantage of the government's attempting to live up to its obligations, even in greatly diminished measure, unless at the same time, it were assured fresh loans upon a large scale." Lamont was saved from this course by a structural obstacle: The debt was in the form of bonded debt, and capital markets wouldn't swallow more Mexican bonds; so the lending had built in limits. Lamont told Obregon that no new loans would be granted until the old ones were at least partly honored. The Mexican replied that their debt should be proportionate to their ability to be pay -- an argument that will sound drearily familiar to bankers of a later day -- and wanted a 50-percent reduction in principal.

Lamont began to sense Obregon had a secret agenda. By holding back customs revenues pledged to the defaulted bonds, Mexico drove down the bonds' market price. This was convenient, since the government could then use those revenues to buy back depreciated bonds in the marketplace Lamont thought this a betrayal of bondholder's trust. At this point, he still insisted that bonds be redeemed at par. He tried to scare Mexico with arguments that default would make it a pariah in the international marketplace, that it would be unable to secure future loans."
-------------
This event took place in 1921. What's telling is that now -- over three quarters of a century later -- the international banks are still dealing with the same attitudes which prevailed among third world borrowers then. Chernow's book is highly recommended to those who want to understand the history of 20th finance in the United States. Tom Lamont was a partner in Morgan & Co.

The loans, of course, were defaulted on -- even though the bankers extended terms of 45 years to pay. So the question remains: Why did American bankers continue to extend loans to Mexico in the more than 75 years following these events even though one default followed another right down to the latest Mexican default of only a few years ago? If one were to consider the international loan as a social policy meant to raise the standard of living of the recipient (which is how I am certain Lamont would have viewed it), then the international loan has been a miserable failure. The people of Mexico are not much better off now than they were in 1921, and the people of the United States, right up until the blanket bailout now being discussed in Cologne, have been forced through the policy of privatizing profits and socializing losses to bear the burden of this financial adventurism.

Now G7 is asking for exactly what Lamont attempted to prevent Obregon from doing -- reducing the lending terms to a "proportionate to what they can pay" basis. This is an important principle. What it says in extremis is that "you can default if you want to; we, the politicians welcome it. We have no problem moving this burden to our taxpayers." So it appears the debtors now have the upper hand as these liberal regimes throughout the G7 have decided that the old rules of finance no longer hold sway. Not that they did before the conference was held, but now there is little in principle to hold the debtor to his promise to pay. This adds a dangerous element to the international lending game that all gold investors should take to heart.

In 1923, Lamont said of the Mexico situation: "Much of my life for two years past has been devoted to help poor Mexico to her feet...The accomplishment of that task is one of my daily prayers." In the case of Mexico, and it now seems apparent with most third world loans, perhaps the problem is killing them with kindness. Who do I mean by "them?" First, the third world countries where loans should not be forgiven so that they think twice before they sign on a loan in the future. Second, the merchant bankers who the taxpayers continue to bail out every time they get in trouble. Third, the politicians who just offered up G7 taxpayers as collateral for third world loans. One wonders if any of these loans would have been made under the circumstances had there been no taxpayer social safety net. Far better had both the lender and borrower been forced to live by the same rules and code of behavior incumbent on the ordinary small businessman or businesswoman who must perform to a substantially higher standard than most of the nations of the world and most international bankers.
AEL
tomcat
"From the numbers you posted, it seems that the worlds supply of silver is less than that of gold. Could that be possible?"

That's what it looks like. I have not tried to verify these figures myself; relying on "Rhody" and Butler to have done adequate due diligence. Has anyone else researched this?
Leigh
ET
This is from "Economic Doomsday," a book by Gene Edwards:

"Actually, I think Bill Gates has already figured this out. I recently learned that Bill has purchased an entire island out in some obscure part of the Atlantic Ocean. He is building a self-contained little world there."
Cavan Man
The Scot
You hit the nail square on the head; again! Being a Dad and making all of these preparations for the safety and security of my family is keeping me pretty busy these days.

Is silver good for a rainy day also? Any chance silver might be confiscated by US in worst case economic scenario?
OverHerd
Y2K
http://www.y2knewswire.com/This site has some pretty good analysis. Their FAA coverage is scaring the hell out of me (I work in the aviation industry) and information from within my company is practically nonexistent. Some Quotes from the articles on programmers:

The Good
"As a company insider, I know that the utility company I work for
has been very accurate in reporting Y2K progress to the public."
[An item of good news. The survey contains several such items.
This shows that some organizations are likely to achieve
compliance before the end of the year.]

The Bad
SPEAKING OUT
With the truth now becoming obvious to many of the people on the
Y2K front lines, an increasing number are now speaking out. One
Y2K programmer, on condition of anonymity, told
Y2KNEWSWIRE, "We're professional liars. We're not telling our
bosses how bad it is because of how severely we've seen others
treated. There are great disincentives to being honest with
management."

And The Ugly
"I work with several government agencies. The Pinocchio factor is
severe. These guys don't know how to tell the truth, especially
when the truth is bad news..."
"The current approach to "avoiding public over-reaction" will
ensure panic."
[A consultant's assessment that agrees with ours: misinformation is
likely to lead to panic.]
"There is no real disconnect between what we know and what we
report, but there is a strong difference between what we report and
what the media and the Congress choose to pass on."

Comments from the FORUM on this web site (Y2KNEWSWIRE) would be appreciated. I think the posters here are very informed and articulate about this subject and your opinions are of much value to me.
Thanks, Joe
Aristotle
Part 1--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market
(Thanks in advance to Aragorn III for his direct input and valuable insights for what I am embarking on here. Much of this I hope will help to illuminate many of the developments and ideas that have been valiantly offered by ANOTHER and FOA over many preceding months.)

The estimable economist Milton Friedman stated his forgetable opinion in 1974 that OPEC would collapse and oil would never get up to $10 per barrel. In all fairness to Professor Friedman, we must recognize his position as coming from a staunch monetarist, emphasizing money supply as the "true religion" for the Federal Reserve to keep the US Dollar as good as Gold. At times, he half-seriously argued for the abolition of the Federal Reserve in light of the simple monetary policy guidelines that could serve in its stead, with the economy returning to a state of self-regulation. (In the past sound-money days, economic hardships were far from unnatural, and they were not necessarily attributable to acts of government. However, modern attempts to centrally manage the economy ensures that any blame for systemic difficulties today may be clearly laid at government's feet.)

Milton's mistake was two-fold. First was his knowledge that Arabian oil could be produced for one dime of real money, and that inevitable competition among OPEC members would surely keep the cost close to cost of production. Second, and most importantly, Milton failed to account for the possibility that the government would abandon such reasonable monetary management to keep the dollar nearly as good as Gold. This fact was NOT lost, however, on the oil producing countries. Ask yourself, what would YOU do if your business or trading partners suddenly started offering you payment with Monopoly money instead of "real" money? Would you shun real money as though it were the plague, and embrace Monopoly money as the greatest thing since sliced bread? If you would, then I have got a job for you!! Bring your shovel and some work-clothes, you have been hired for life...

Upon the 1971 declaration by the United States that redemption of dollars for Gold would be terminated, the entities in receipt of dollars for balance of trade settlements had no difficulty recognizing this as an outright default on payment contracts. The scramble was on to make sense of this new payment system in which the dollar was no longer a THING of value (a small amount of Gold), but was now reduced to a CONCEPT of value in which it would denominate essentially undefined units of value in contracts for goods and services. The problem ever since has been in coming to terms with the meaning of value for this shifting and undefined unit, and its vulnerability for mismanagement and abuse.

Jelle Zijlstra, who became head of the Bank for International Settlements, said while with the Bank of the Netherlands in regard to the 1971 severing of Gold from the dollar, "When we left the pound, we could go to the dollar. But where could we go from the dollar? To the moon?"

As I continue this tale, I hope it becomes clear that not only have we gone to the moon, but that Gold is going there also.

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle
Richard, Oregon
Silver
Re: Tomcat (06/19/99; 23:37:06MDT - Msg ID:7825) Tomcat - I believe you are requesting info on bullion silver, not numismatic. Correct? I have purchased some numismatic silver some time ago but never thought much about bullion. I do believe MK recommends both numismatic gold and silver as a balance in the precious metal part of your wealth portfolio.
Gandalf the White
Thank you Ari for Part #1
The Hobbits are attentively awaiting the remainder of this SERIAL. They have not had these since Tom Mix, Roy Rodgers Cisco and Poncho, The Lone Ranger, and BatMan.
<;-)
Beowulf
Princeton Economics Take on Gold Manipulation
http://www.pei-intl.com/HMEFRAME.HTMHere's a good post I found at one of the other boards. This is Princeton Economics take on the gold price fluctuation and how they don't think GATA is correct in their assumptions. Anyway, click on the picture of the big GOLD bar when you get to the page.
Cavan Man
Oil For Gold
Ask yourself; why would any country with only ONE natural resource of REAL value tender this precious VALUE vis a vis contracts for "monopoly money", why? When you consider that this natural resource is finite and that alternative energy solutions are looming on the horizon, the answer is clear. Life as we know it and experience it today, right now this minute for each of us, is impossible without oil. Until a replacement is found, we are at the mercy of this vital "commodity".

Would the US and Western nations sieze oil if backed into a corner by whatever devices? An old Redford movie, Three Days of The Condor, told a story along these lines.
koan
silver - a thought
There is a ratio, but I cannot remember it (16 to 1?) of gold to silver on earth and in the solar system. All things being equal that should be the price of silver to gold - shouldn't it? But silver is actually being comsumed. Every 5,000 pictures uses an oz of silver - with some eventually being recoved, electronic connections, solar reflectors, etc. So, actually the above ratio should be smaller as most gold is not used up. So if gold is $260, should silver not be whatever that ratio is - at least? I would welcome someone to pick apart this argument.
Last, over the last 50 years the world has used up hundreds of millions of oz of silver which the US government used to stockpile. We are down to the last few hundred million oz - except for India, but that will take higher prices to dislodge much of that. Modern technology is constantly finding new uses for silver because of its amazing reflection capabilities - someone once said silver can detect the light of a candle on the moon. That must be an exageration, but silver is amazing. That is the reason no substitutes for photography were ever found.
Cavan Man
Silver
Does anyone have an opinion on this metal? What particular silver product is best? Thanks to all....
something else
Thanks Aristotle!
I have just read your response to my post regarding the BOE sale, as well as your posting 7839. Thank you for taking the time to provide a direct response. It definately is a different and intersting way of viewing the situation. To be honest though, I still don't know if I understand how the BOE sale is supposed to "help" those "poor countries". If someone owes me a debt, by the goodness of my heart I could decide to forgive it. But if that someone owes a debt to someone else (as well as to me), why would I sell my hard assets to help that debt be "forgiven"? Would the proceeds be used to pay off the beneficiaries debt to the debtor nation? If so, then what about the debt owed to me? If I sell my gold, and obtain the proceeds of that sale, give some of it another debtor nation and some of it back to myself, then virtually all I have done is lost the value of the assets I sold? Whats the point? Furthermore, this 'benevolent' move is being portrayed by the press as a means to make life better for the 'citizens' of these poor countries. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the poor of the "poor countries" will not see a thing (not a morsel of food, an article of clothing, nor any credit of any monetary value) from this so called relief. The only 'relief' that will happen is a (limited) a sigh of relief by those governments because they are now obligated only to repay, oh say, 100 billion in debt rather than 300 billion in debt (just numbers pulled from thin air for examples sake). Whats the difference anyway? By the time they get around to repaying the lesser debt of 100 billion, the interest on it will have brought it back up to where it is in the first place, and it will have to be forgiven again, (or simply defaulted on). Like I said. I just don't get it. What I do see, is more smoke, mirrors and bs, from the media. What else I don't get is whether or not they actually believe all that propaganda that they are disseminating. If they do then I don't know what I should feel the strongest, pity or fear! All I know is that something is very fishy, and the smell gets worse by the day. Somehow it just seems that the majority of the US public (at least) has become completely divorced from any grip on reality. I appreciate your insight, and the insight of others posted on this forum. Here at least, I can feel that there are some who are not fooled by the rhetoric. And from whom I can gain knowlege, insight and excellent analysis. I look forward, with much anticipation, to your upcoming 'series'. Thanks again.
Tomcat
ET: Y2k and the financial elite

Just got back from a Father's Day hike in the Rockies. Thanks for your response. Yes, this will be a very memorable 12 months that lies ahead.

Regarding the post-y2k reconstruction period you said:

"I have great doubts that the majority of people will be in any hurry to rebuild a fiat money system after they experience the collapse of this one."

Perhaps. But I thinks the common man's main complait is the absences of work and the inactivity of our leaders.

You said: "Those in power today derive their power from the current system and to sustain or resurrect this power would require the confidence of the majority or it will never happen. As I see it, the average individual will have to want to go into further debt either directly or indirectly to reempower the elite. I would suspect that if
a financial collapse does occur, the majority is going to be quite angry over their perceived loss of wealth and will probably not be in any mood to go back to a system that failed them so miserably."

You give the general populace much credit for thier understanding of what has happened to them. If a real collapse happens then I believe scapegoats, like hoarders, will be found and tried on the Six O'Clock News. My opinion is that the public will buy the pablum fed to them and will happily give up freedoms for jobs or money or handouts.

You said: "However, the idea of something for nothing is still pretty popular. As I mentioned earlier, we've all been corrupted to one extent or another."

Amen!

You asked: "This does bring up some other questions. What happens to the financial elite if virtually everyone goes bankrupt? Will we see all this debt repudiated at once? Start from scratch with the holders of debt left holding the bag? Would the new financial elite be the holders of gold?"

For hundreds of years the financial elite have been groomed in the power of gold and real resources like oil and weapons and bought politicians. Even if caught off guard by y2k they will retain much of the power.

If financial elite have anything to fear it is the internet. For the first time in history they are being exposed and the truth has a power of its own. Witness the exposure the internet has provided the world about y2k. In another more localized example GATA has peole listening and is nothing to be sneezed at. Even this forum, Kitco and others like it do make a difference and if this continues things, as you say, are going to get real interesting.

ET
Leigh

Hey Leigh - thanks for the reference.

I would have a hard time believing Gates is clueless concerning y2k. Maybe his 'islanding' approach is the best strategy if you can afford it. Maybe the rest of us should be looking at a similar strategy.

"Watch what they do, not what they say".

ET
Cavan Man
Tomcat and Freedom
John Q. Public loves pablum! Freedom is being lost (consigned to government) incrementally as I know you will agree. Given a choice between the loss of personal and collective liberty and the most perfect document for governance yet known to man, society at large will choose the former as a means to keep their "toys".

"There was one of two things I had a right to....death or, liberty." Harriet Tubman

By the way, thanks for your posts on Y2K. Impediments to commerce are the least we can expect. That's just good old common sense.
Tomcat
Some advantages to owning silver

I am into gold more than silver but Silver definitely plays an important role in my portforlio. Here are some of the advantages that I see for Silver:

1. Silver is less apt to be confiscated than gold.
2. More people are familiar with silver than with gold and in bad times will try to use their silver to their advantage; it is a great barter item.
3. In the US, Silver is coined in a way that is recognizable to many: "pre 65" coins, present day Silver Eagles, silver
dollars,etc. Compare this to gold, which has never even been held, let alone owned, by many.
4. Silver is at $5 per ounce. It is affordable by many.
5. Many consider the probability for an upward growth in
the price of silver is higher than a downward movement. Some feel the opposite is true for gold.
6. The world's financial system does not depend on the low price of silver. It is less political.
7. My opinion is that the price of silver is less controlled
and manipulated than the price of gold.
8. I am told that their is a lot of silver on this planet. I
don't have the figures. But, assuming it this is true, in hard times silver would come out of the woodwork as they
say and would be available to many people making it a
defacto currency (or barter item) just by its
availability. This may not be true of gold. There might
not be enough to go around.
9. If gold goes to too high in price, it might be taken out of circulaton. Silver might not go so high and might be left in circulaton by the powers that be.

10.Gold might become a bankers currency only. I don't think that would ever happen to silver.

Who has some more advantages (or disadvantages) of silver. I would sure appreciate hearing your views.
Gandalf the White
Question to the silverbugs
say Gold is at US$260. and silver at US$5. = a ratio of 52 to one. How much longer would you be willing to exchange a ounce of 0.9999 Au for fifty-two pure ounces of silver ? The clock is ticking. -- The answer will be needed before the start of Y2K. -- The Hobbits will take your Au at that rate at ANY time and we shall see whom is the wiser.
<;-)
AEL
overherd: y2knewswire
you write: "http://www.y2knewswire.com/
This site has some pretty good analysis. Their FAA coverage is scaring the hell out of me"

ha! Yes, their *everything* coverage scared the hell out of me, too, for a while, before I realized that it is their agenda to scare everyone in order to sell more subscriptions to their paid service, and other stuff. I still read their stuff, and it has some value, but just understand their orientation, and take it all with a grain of salt. (Actually, I must confess that the guy who writes most of their stuff -- name Adams, I believe -- is really a great writer and thinker, and has put up some uncannily brilliant pieces.)
Goldsun
Silver Supply Elasticity
At what price does silver production meet demand? I am assuming that turning in teapots will not be sufficient in quantity or duration (amplitude and frequency if you prefer) and that demand for end products such as photographic film would not be affected by the trivial price increase resulting from even a significant increase in the price of silver. If silver became expensive, demand for new silver jewelry could even increase. The same effect would probably be felt in plainer bullion products. Therefore, production of new silver would have to increase. If anyone knows what potential supplies exist, and what prices would realize them, I am willing to listen. I'm also curious about what major users of silver such as Kodak have done about the potential shortage.
Goldsun
Oregon Geezer
The real "hep" from the gumment
John Koskinen, Chair of the President's Council on Y2K Computer Problem, has announced the a nationwide campaign called "Y2K Community Conversations" to raise awareness, calm public fears and put Y2K preparations back into the hands of local leaders.
As I see it, the net effect is for the fed gumment to wash its hands of the problem and dump in back into the laps of local leaders. You know. The ones who can't fix potholes. I guess it's time to reach for the blankie and find the thumb for all the seriousness the feds are taking.
Oregon Geezer
Is it possible?
From an idea I got on this web site a couple of days ago about computer programmers who realize that the problem of a company computer cannot be fixed and thus string the CEO along until the end of the year. This will keep their income flowing until December and avoid being fired because the problem can't be fixed. I offer the following imaginary memo.

"From: Mike Roe Chip
"To: Mr. M. T. Pockets
"Re: Y2K problem
"Date: Dec. 31, 1999

"I am sorry to inform you that there was simply not enough time/money/resources to fix the Y2K problem in the company computers. At 12:01 AM all of your computers will shut down and your business will come to a screeching halt.
"Have a nice day."
Tomcat
Oregon Geezer: Silver

Could you expand on your post yesterday where you asked:

"How much longer would you be willing to exchange a ounce of 0.9999 Au for fifty-two pure ounces of silver ? The clock is ticking. -- The answer will be needed before the start of Y2K. -- The Hobbits will take your Au at that rate at ANY time and we shall see whom is the wiser."

Please excuse, but I am missing the point and am quite interested. Thanks.
Cavan Man
Tomcat
That was Gandalf's post I think. I am interested also. If pre-'65's can't be had does it make any sense to hold Silver Eagles?
ET
Tomcat

Hey Tomcat - thanks for the response. I suppose I do have faith in the average guy's common sense. When it becomes clear that things have changed and the money is gone, I believe people will adapt quickly to the new reality.

You wrote;

'For hundreds of years the financial elite have been groomed in the power of gold and real resources
like oil and weapons and bought politicians. Even if caught off guard by y2k they will retain much of
the power.'

Yes - I'm sure. What this power might consist of is what is in question. I still suspect the Russian experience of the last few years is instructive. People adapted and the state lost much of it's power over it's citizens output. We'll see.

I'll be offline for a few days and will catch up later this week. Thanks again for your input.

ET
Leigh
Oregon Geezer
Good morning, Oregon. You know, I'd RATHER have local government take charge of its citizens during Y2K. You can expect (most of the time) reasonableness and situation- appropriate behavior from local leaders, whereas orders from "on high" are likely to be unreasonable and freedom limiting. Wouldn't you rather have a group of neighbors meeting to decide how to help out those without food ("Does anyone have anything they're willing to share?") than an Executive Order proclaiming that all hoarders will be hunted down and punished? That's just my opinion, anyway.

Has anyone been able to get onto the Kitco group discussion site in the last 12 hours? I haven't. Leigh
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report
MARKET REPORT(6/21/99): Gold was unchanged in the early going after uneventful
trading overseas. The gold market is responding primarily to the stronger dollar. The
Japanese have reportedly been working to soften their currency and boost exports, and the
euro has resumed its downtrend against the dollar. The British pound is suffering another
bad day in currency markets -- down almost another full cent. The pound sterling has been
in rapid descent ever since the Bank of England gold sale announcement of May 7, 1999.

G7 announced its agreement on selling ten million ounces of the IMF gold hoard. G7
approval is only one hurdle to be cleared before any gold sales occur. The sale still needs to
be approved by Congress. Senator Richard Bryan (D-Nev) said Saturday that the sales
require Congressional approval and stated flatly "It ain't going to happen." Prominent
legislators from both parties are opposed to the sale. U.S. treasury officials went out of
their to explain that if the sales occurred they would be conducted over a period of years so
that the price would not be undermined. We give Congressional approval no better than a
50-50 chance, so its hard to understand the hoopla surrounding G7s announcement in the
mainstream financial press.

The latest Commodity Futures Trading Commission Commitment of Traders' report figures
released on Friday showed speculators increasing the overall gold short position another 19
tons from 245 tons to 264 tons in the latest reporting period -- a unusually large surge the
bulk of which can be traced to three or four large block trades executed by major Wall Street
financial houses. These figures do not include the much larger short position held in the
secretive London over the counter market. Gold bulls point to this short position as a threat
to lower prices since it will need to be squared at some point in the future.

We have often pointed to the split between Main Street and Wall Street on gold. Main Street
sees it as a means of protecting wealth and remains a net buyer. Wall Street hates gold and
takes every opportunity to short it and drive it lower -- the incredible short position being
the primary indicator. It is not the investor worldwide that has shorted gold, it is major
financial institutions with huge and aggressive block trades offsetting the public buying that
has driven the market lower. Meanwhile, physical gold demand continues to grow at record
levels among investors concerned about the overvalued stock market, the inflation threat
driven by rising oil prices and the year 2000 computer problem. In short, the public likes
cheap gold and continues to accumulate it at a steady pace.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.
TownCrier
Incoming Bundesbank president confirms ECB's interest in strong external value for the euro
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990621/gv.htmlHe indicated that currency intervention as a rule had little effect if it was pursued against the trend of the foreign exchange market.

We've seen many countries learn this the hard way...they spend down their reserves and have nothing left at the end of the road to show for their efforts. Essentially, the currency must be viable independent of its reserves.
TownCrier
'Forty-Niners' Honored With California Gold Rush Postage Stamp
U.S. Postal Service Press Release

SACRAMENTO, Calif., June 18 /PRNewswire/ -- The indomitable spirit of the "forty-niners" was honored today when a new commemorative stamp was issued by the U.S. Postal Service in Old Sacramento, as part of Railfair '99, a week- long event dedicated to locomotives and the railway system of years gone by.

The California Gold Rush stamp honors the thousands of hopeful forty- niners who rushed to California in the hopes of "striking it rich." The stamp, which goes on sale today in the Sacramento area, will be available at post offices nationwide beginning June 19.

Dedication speaker M. Richard Porras, Postal Service Chief Financial Officer and Senior Vice President, said that the California Gold Rush helped encourage the development of a diversified economy and the expansion of agriculture in this country.

The California Gold Rush stamp was illustrated by John Berkey of Excelsior, Minn., and designed by Howard Paine of Delaplane, Va.
Berkey's illustration depicts prospectors mining a stream in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains in California during the 1849 Gold Rush. Forty- niners are shown using some of the basic tools of the time -- a pan and a rocker -- to separate particles of gold from gravel and sand.
-----------------------
Sounds like hard work. Sounds like an honest way to "make money"...
TownCrier
Investors call for Russia to pay Soviet-era debt
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990621/o2.htmlInvestors cry when the risk/reward coin comes up RISK.
TownCrier
Currency tea leaves to start your week
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990621/qk.htmlJapan pushes for a weaker yen.
European commission gets tough...says Italy must shape up or ship out--no free rides on the euro-train.
AEL
several comments

Gandalf the White (6/20/99; 23:43:44MDT - Msg ID:7851): "Question to the
silverbugs: say Gold is at US$260. and silver at US$5. = a ratio of 52
to one. How much longer would you be willing to exchange a ounce of
0.9999 Au for fifty-two pure ounces of silver? The clock is ticking." --
The answer will be needed before the start of Y2K. -- The Hobbits will
take your Au at that rate at ANY time and we shall see whom is the
wiser."

We shall indeed. The clock ticks, and I, the fool (?), will be
hedged in all things tangible.

Would it not be a hoot if oatmeal did better than Au?

----------

Tomcat (6/20/99; 22:32:41MDT - Msg ID:7850): "Some advantages to owning
silver"

Great list, sir! Thanks. Especially appreciated your #6: "The world's
financial system does not depend on the low price of silver. It is less
political." Yes, much less. This is my one abiding fear about gold: that
the hands holding it down are immensely powerful, resourceful and
determined. Heaven only knows how long they can keep this game going;
maybe a very long time. And I, for one, am blissfully child-free; I am
in this for myself and a few loved ones, for this lifetime. Gold (or
whatever) must shine in a 5-10 year timeframe and carry me in relative
comfort -- hopefully even prosperity -- to the other side of the
upcoming debacle, else it has failed me.

I figure if I keep taunting gold by voicing doubts, then it should
respond with a radical upward revaluation... :)

----------

Cavan Man (6/20/99; 20:03:11MDT - Msg ID:7845): "Does anyone have an
opinion on this metal? What particular silver product is best?"

I initially liked the 40% halves for many reasons (see
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/realcomm.htm#40aghalves), and I
still do, but they are awfully heavy and bulky. The 90% should be much
easier to handle; I don't have any yet (Michael, do you sell these?). Or
perhaps silver rounds, which are going for a modest premium over spot.
The silver eagles are still really overpriced (high premiums), tho down
somewhat from a couple months ago.

----------

Cavan Man (6/20/99; 12:37:03MDT - Msg ID:7837): "Is silver good for a
rainy day also? Any chance silver might be confiscated by US in worst
case economic scenario?

IMHO: there is a chance that ANYthing can be confiscated (stolen) by a
rapacious and out-of-control state. Buy discretely; hide well.

----------

koan (6/20/99; 20:00:21MDT - Msg ID:7844): "There is a ratio, but I
cannot remember it (16 to 1?) of gold to silver on earth and in the
solar system. All things being equal that should be the price of silver
to gold - shouldn't it?"

I thought 16:1 WAS the historical price ratio; did not know that was
the (geo/physical) occurence ratio as well, but that makes sense.

Now, lessee... gold at $260, silver ought to be about $16... and
with gold at $10K, silver should be at about $600...... :)

However, historical ratios may or may not obtain henceforth. "Past
performance is no GUARANTEE of future results" -- that ubiquitous
prospectus disclaimer -- applies to everything, I am afraid.


TownCrier
After Hong Kong propped up its stock market last year, the Government now plans to resell those shares
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990621/hong_kong__1.html$15.1 billion was purchased in a falling market, to be sold now that the market has nearly doubled.

What a fine alternative to taxes! Smells like the death of free markets from here, boys...
Aristotle
Tomcat's "Advantages to Owning Silver" list
Hey Tomcat! I haven't had much opportunity to chat directly with you lately. Your list got my attention for two reasons. First, it's a thorough collection of the popular reasons many people cite as the advantages to buying silver, and second, it gives me a great chance to try a trick I learned from Aragorn. You stated at the conclusion of your list, "Who has some more advantages (or disadvantages) of silver. I would sure appreciate hearing your views." In that spirit, I'm going to give this a shot, but don't take it like an assault on you--you already get highest marks for this comment: "I am into gold more than silver..." Think of this as a reality check on these prevailing views toward silver.


I am simply going to alter your (6/20/99 - Msg ID:7850) list to replace "silver" with another commodity ("sugar"), and to replace the word "Gold" with a word that assists in providing better perspective for many people ("money").

1. Sugar is less apt to be confiscated than Money.
2. More people are familiar with sugar than with Money, and in bad times will try to use their sugar to their advantage; it is a great barter item.
3. In the US, sugar is packaged in a way that is recognizable to many: bulk, individual packets, granular, powdered, syrup, etc. Compare this to Money, which has never even been held, let alone owned, by many.

[ This was the original version "In the US, Silver is coined in a way that is recognizable to many: "pre 65" coins, present day Silver Eagles, silver dollars,etc." You said to ET yesterday, "You give the general populace much credit for thier understanding of what has happened to them." You are likely right in your wariness to give credit to the understanding of the public. The same might hold true in their ability to appreciate a pre-65 dime from a modern counterfeit dime. This could work against silver in some small degree.]

4. Sugar is at $.50 per pound. It is affordable by many.
5. Many consider the probability for an upward growth in the price of sugar is higher than a downward movement. Some feel the opposite is true for Money.
6. The world's financial system does not depend on the low price of sugar. It is less political.
7. My opinion is that the price of sugar is less controlled and manipulated than the price of Money.
8. I am told that their is a lot of sugar on this planet. I don't have the figures. But, assuming it this is true, in hard times sugar would come out of the woodwork as they say and would be available to many people making it a
de facto currency (or barter item) just by its availability. This may not be true of Money. There might not be enough to go around.
9. If Money goes to too high in price, it might be taken out of circulaton. Sugar might not go so high and might be left in circulaton by the powers that be.
10. Money might become a bankers currency only. I don't think that would ever happen to sugar.

Tomcat, I hope this gave you a smile or two. Always a welcome thing on a Monday! As for me, until I either go into the pastry business or photography industry, I think I'll continue choosing Money for all the things I need money for. I'm glad to see you walking that path, also.

Gold. It's REAL money. --Aristotle
Aristotle
A final word on silver (from me, that is... The rest of you can "Party on!")
koan asked, "There is a ratio, but I cannot remember it (16 to 1?) of gold to silver on earth and in the solar system. All things being equal that should be the price of silver to gold - shouldn't it?"

When expressed as an average amount (by weight) of the elemental make-up of the Earth's crust, the ratio of silver to Gold is about 20 to 1. (I must confess, I don't know what the sugar:Gold ratio is, but the carbon to Gold ratio is about 64,000 to 1; and that does not include atmospheric or oceanic carbon.) The silver to Gold ratio within sea water is about 30 to 1.

Where price is concerned, the utility of the material is a substantial factor in price. If their need was in fact equivalent, then Yes, the price should reflect their relative abundance. But needs shift through time, and so do stockpiles. "Pricing" is the culmination of all economic activity, and Gold's role as money secures it at the apex of the Value Pyramid in a developed and civilized society. If civilization collapsed utterly, then naturally all bets are off and food itself reigns supreme. ---Aristotle
Gandalf the White
Thank you Ari
You are much wiser than I in explaining "sugar".
<;-)
PS: Fourteen more Hobbits have pocket change.
turbohawg
income taxes
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1999/Jun-20-Sun-1999/opinion/11397994.htmlWe need a few more people like Banister ...


Sunday, June 20, 1999
Copyright � Las Vegas Review-Journal

COLUMN: Vin Suprynowicz
'Income tax is voluntary for most people'


Joseph R. Banister spoke June 12 at the Best Western Mardi Gras Inn in Las Vegas; he will speak again July 1 and July 2 at the National Press Club in Washington.

Joe Banister graduated from San Jose State University in 1986 with a degree in accounting; he became a certified public accountant in 1991. After several years of auditing and tax work, he decided "bean-counting was boring" and decided to follow several relatives and friends into law
enforcement.
����� "I was sworn in on Nov. 15, 1993, as an IRS special agent," Banister recalls. "I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution."
����� After receiving his gun and badge, he quickly rose to become asset forfeiture coordinator for the Central California District of the IRS.
����� "I knew the IRS was unpopular and no one liked them," Banister smiles wanly. "But I'm a nice guy, and I figured maybe I could put a nicer face on things."
����� Then, in December of 1996, Banister recalls listening to a radio show in San Francisco. The guest was Devvy Kidd, who alleged, among other things, "that the federal income tax was voluntary."
����� Banister sent for the information Kidd was offering. On his own time, using up vacation days and on his home telephone, Banister then used all his skills as a professional investigator to look into the three allegations which he found "the most profound and unbelievable":
����� 1) Due to limitations imposed by the U.S. Constitution, filing of federal income tax returns and payment of federal income tax is voluntary, not mandatory.
����� 2) The 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which precipitated the federal income tax, was never legally ratified.
����� 3) The U.S. government finances its operations from the unconstitutional creation of fiat money, not with revenue from income taxes.
����� Banister spent 1997 reading books like Edward Griffin's 1994 "The Creature from Jeckyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve." He investigated the case of tax protester Bill Conklin of Denver, who actually won his case in federal court.
����� Some of this started to make sense to agent Banister. After all, "One thing I was required to do when I spoke to a suspect, I had to read him the IRS version of their Miranda rights. So I knew about this Fifth Amendment business, because anything you say or put in writing can be used against you."
����� So how could citizens be required to file tax forms, Banister wondered, submitting information which could be used against them in a court of law?
����� Banister says he called Bill Benson of South Holland, Ill., author of the book "The Law That Never Was." Banister says he was moved by Benson's trust (the author contends not a single state ever ratified the 16th Amendment) when Benson mailed the investigator -- still a badge-carrying IRS agent -- not a copy, but one of two original documents recording the vote of the state Senate of Kentucky against
ratification of the tax amendment.
����� "Yet (U.S. Secretary of State) Philander Knox counted Kentucky as one of the states that did ratify," Banister adds. Banister was unable to dismiss the claims as easily as he had expected to.
����� The conclusion of Banister? "I truly believe the income tax is voluntary for most people. They kept asking, 'Show me the statute that makes you liable,' and I couldn't find it.
����� "My attorney said, get all your facts and evidence together in one place. ... So I put together a report. ... I've got to find out what is constitutional and what is not, what is mandatory and what is not. ... I carry a gun and a badge, we put people in prison for failure to file income tax returns."
����� Banister gave his report to his boss. Banister asked that the report be forwarded on through the district chief to IRS Commissioner Rosati. "I need someone to show me where I'm wrong in my analysis," he reports telling his superiors. "If I find the IRS to be deceitful, if they can't show me where I'm wrong, I'll have to resign."
����� But the only response he received from his superiors "was a memorandum to the effect that, 'We will not be responding to your report, and we will supply you with the proper paperwork to submit your resignation.' "
����� Joe Banister turned in his gun and badge, his bulletproof vest and computer and pager, and said goodbye to the IRS on Feb. 25, the anniversary of the date when in 1913 U.S. Secretary of State Philander Knox declared that the 16th Amendment had been ratified.
����� Joe Banister says he resigned rather than betray a sacred oath to "tens of millions of good Americans who simply want to know what's theirs and what's the government's, and to see a bright, shining line between the two." �����
�����Vin Suprynowicz, assistant editorial page editor of the
Review-Journal, is author of the new book "Send in the Waco Killers." His column appears Sunday.
TownCrier
Prodi hits euro, BOJ hits yen
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990621/x9.htmlThis article is full of nuggets.

The Japanese central bank's primary concern was said to be euro/yen, even though it had frequently bought dollars, rather than euros, for yen when it intervened in currency markets.

With the yen strengthening from its past lows, and the US Bond market going south, doesn't this spell a disastrous end to the yen carry trade?

"Senior Japanese Ministry of Finance official Eisuke Sakakibara said on Monday that previous BOJ intervention on Friday to curb yen strength was not aimed at specific investors."
TownCrier
Russian Trade Surplus Soars
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990621/russia_eco_1.htmlIf they can do it, why can't we?
AEL
My Letter to a Friend
Hopefully I am still welcome here after my heretical comments about silver, etc... ;)

Herewith is the text of a letter that I wrote to a friend, who gave me the URL of an anti-gold rant which impressed him. I gave my best shot in the response. I know that many of you here could have done a much better job. Here it is, anyway. If you would like to add a few comments, or direct me to a few pertinent posts or URLs, I will forward same on to my friend (Rich)...

Thanks, all!




Dear Rich,

I read Benjamin Works' item on gold, at your suggestion.
(http://WWW.siri-us.com/backgrounders/Archives-OtherTopics/Sit-Gold.htm)

I found it to be the standard mainstream media (NYT/WSJ/CNBC/etc)
anti-gold screed, repeated endlessly, especially in recent months. "Gold
is Dead" is the rallying cry... and even literally, as I gather Business
Week just published an article with that title. The arguments are either
naive, or disingenuous.

OK, now that I've got those insults out of my system, here's the deal:

Questions about the value of gold must inevitably bring up fundamental
questions about the nature of money and the definition of value. If they
do not, then the questioner will indeed be guilty of my accusations
("naive or disingenuous").

Saying that "gold is no longer a good store of value" is like saying
that "shoes [or oats, or bicycles] are no longer a good store of value".
Actually, it is literally true that shoes have not been a good store of
value over the past several years. I noticed this in recent weeks while
shopping for shoes, and finding that amazingly high-quality shoes can be
had for as little as $20/pair. A few years ago it seemed that I was paying
$60 for decent quality shoes (mostly sneakers -- my staple). It is also
true that gold has not been a good store of value, having declined from
over $400/oz several years ago to $260/oz today.

Gold (or sneakers, or whatever) could indeed go down in price, i.e. U.S.
dollar price. Anything -- that is, literally, ANY *THING* -- could go
down in U.S. dollar price. What does this mean? What is the context?
If some things are going down in value, then musn't other things
be going UP in value? What is going up? The U.S. dollar? If the dollar
is increasing in value, why so? Is it sustainable? What are the
underlying forces and determinants of that value? Further, what IS a
"dollar", anyway? What makes it so valuable? What is "value"? What is
"money"? And if gold (with its 5,000-year history) or oats or sneakers
are not to be stores of value, then what is? The dollar? Internet
stocks? U.S. Treasuries? The Rupiah? The Ruble? Ask these questions of
yourself, and linger over them. These are the core questions leading to
understanding of the current money situation (and gold). What do you
believe, and why do you believe it?

Mr Works says: "What has replaced gold as the reserve store of value in
the international banking system is our $4 Trillion public Treasury
Debt. Bills, notes and bonds of the US, Germany and Japan are what now
provide liquidity". Well! The "store of value" and provider of liquidity
is now DEBT. We are rich by virtue of an abundance of pieces of paper
that indicate that we are indebted. Does anything about this strike you
as strange, or even a tad insane? What he neglected to mention is that
the confidence of those holding all that (dollar-denominated) debt is
what holds up the "value" of the dollar, since the dollar has no
underlying asset base. What would happen if that confidence were shaken?
(i.e. stock market collapse, greatly reduced tax revenues, inability to
service debt). What would then become of Mr Works' vaunted "store of
value"?

Note well that there has been a dollar-creation binge going on for many
years running. The world is awash in bucks, in the form of (largely)
U.S. bonds and stocks, and urban real estate. These are the dollars
whose "value" -- exchangability for tangible things -- is so high. At
this moment in time dollars are indeed very valuable, in terms of the
things that can be bought with them. However, this high value ASSUMES
THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE DOLLARS REMAIN AS UNREDEEMED DEBT, i.e. as
notes of one kind or another, especially but not exclusively bonds.
They will remain unredeemed as long as the holders have confidence in
the dollar and in the ability of the U.S. to service its debt.

This situation is analogous to the one we have discussed regarding the
banks and Y2K: the banks operate on a "fractional reserve" system, in
which only a tiny percentage of total assets are retained by the bank as
actual cash on hand, and the system is maintained by the confidence that
people place in the banks. They are confident that they can get some or
all of their money out any time they want to; hence they don't want to.

If all the depositors -- or even only 5% of the depositors -- were to
demand their money, the banks would collapse. Similarly, but on a much
bigger scale, the entire economy now operates in a "fractional reserve"
fashion in which total "assets" (the sum of all savings accounts, money
market accounts, bonds, stocks, etc., etc. -- all symbolic
representations of wealth) vastly exceed all the tangible wealth in the
world, at least at presently assessed "values". If everyone, or if even
a rather small fraction of the people (as with the bank example) were to
take their paper assets and convert them into tangibles, there would not
be enough tangibles available to meet the demand; in fact, not even
close to enough.

So, in that circumstance, what must happen? Obviously, the price of
these things in dollars would have to go up, WAY up, astronomically up.
Shoes for sale: 500 "dollars" per pair. Clancy's Fancy Hot Sauce for
sale: 35 "dollars" per bottle. Whatever. And perhaps gold for sale: 4000
"dollars" per oz. Note how I sneakily inserted the "" around the word
dollars. Dollars must be put in "" because the dollar has no definition,
no link to real-world value. The "value" is... whatever it happens to
be (whatever it can be exchanged for) on a particular day. And as long
as most dollars are held (unredeemed) in the form of debt notes, the few
that are NOT held can be redeemed for a good deal of stuff (shoes at
$20/pair, etc.). Actually, all these words -- dollar, value, price,
debt, etc. -- should be in ""s, since all of them are contingent on
conditions that change from moment to moment. Such is the so-called
"floating" exchange "system" (ha!) that prevails today.

How long will this persist, this situation in which most everyone is
happy to hold notes (promises to pay) instead of tangibles (real
wealth)? YOU TELL ME. Mr Works seems to be of the opinion that it will
go on forever, and that expansion of the money supply and the debt
pyramid has no limit. Do you think he is right?

For the record: I do not know if gold will go "up" in "value" (it
probably will, but that is another matter). What I think is that at some
point, sooner or later, and probably sooner (what with Y2K), dollars
will lose purchasing power. As far as the machinations of various banks
(gold sales, etc.) are concerned, and the anti-gold diatribes of the
bankers and financial press hacks, I am not impressed. Whatever they
sell, I and others much smarter than me (and with much deeper pockets
than me) will buy. Gold is money, and money is cheap right now. Yes, it
could get cheaper, for a time. It is even possible that we could see a
final deflationary meltdown for a brief time, in which all commodities
lose "value" (i.e. go down in U.S. dollar price). In my view this would
be only transient, followed by market destabilization, further and
extreme dollar-creation insanities, and violent moves in the opposite
direction, as the chickens (all those scores of trillions of dollars,
both newly-created and already-existing as debt notes) come home to
roost (get redeemed by anxious investors desiring to convert IOUs into
real securities). In other words, deflation will flip over into
hyperINflation very rapidly. Precise timing of all this is impossible,
but my sense is that we are now in the end game (as with Y2K), and
sometime over the next 12-18 months we may well see spectacular
fireworks.

May I suggest you spend some time reading Dr Paul Hein's lucid writings
on the nature of money, and gold. These are all SHORT, easily-digestable
articles, so do not let the number of links scare you:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_98/hein031798.html
A Primer On Money
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_99/hein032599.html
The Emperor's Old Bills
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/hein112398.html
Making Money the Old Fashioned Way--Printing It
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_99/hein022299.html
Inflation Revisited
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/hein092198.html
What a Web We Weave!
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/hein081998.html
Monetary Smoke and Mirrors
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/hein071098.html
Redemption -- A Matter of Justice
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_98/hein022598.html
A Way Out
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_98/hein020998.html
Some Thoughts on Inflation
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_98/hein040698.html
Back To Basics of Bartering

May I also suggest you spend some time on my own money pages, and follow
the links:

Alan's Money and Y2K Prep Pages
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Golden Bear (Investments):
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/goldbear.htm
Surviving the Flight to Cash:
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/realchek.htm
Commentary on the above (IMPORTANT!):
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/realcomm.htm
Y2K Stockpile Rationale and Table/List:
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/y2kstock.htm
Metals, Currency, Consumables, and the Post-Crisis Migration
of Values, Parts I and II:
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/crisisv1.htm
http://www.provide.net/~aelewis/gold/crisisv2.htm

Also, spend some time on the "FAME" (Foundation for the Advancement of
Monetary Education web site, a veritable goldmine (pardon pun) of
erudite and meaty commentaries on money and gold ---

http://www.fame.org/

Also also, you might enjoy the lively daily exchange on the USAGold
Forum, in which I am a (sometime) participant. There are some very keen
and experienced minds on this board -- vastly more knowledgeable than me
on these money matters, and usually more articulate ---

http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/

None of this should be construed as investment advice. In the
environment that we are now entering, almost anything is possible, and
almost nothing would surprise me, short-term. The only thing about which
I am unalterably convinced is that symbolic representations of wealth
(dollars, bonds, stocks, paper of all kinds) will be reckoned-with very
unkindly in relation to tangibles at some moment in time, sooner or
later, probably sooner. Although I am expecting things to unravel in the
fairly near future (1-2 years), it is possible that this Great Reckoning
will take a decade. And of course it is possible that I am completely
wrong about everything. :)

I do not view gold as an investment in the usual sense. I view it as a
tangible form of wealth -- one that happens to have a long history
(roughly 4800 years longer than the dollar) and international
recognition as money. Same with silver. I believe in tangibles, not
paper, although as I explain on my pages (above) I believe that a
certain amount of physical currency (U.S. bucks) is probably a good
thing to have around in the near term... the better to pick up bargains
with, my dear!

If you have very limited resources, better (in my view) to spend on
essentials/consumables such as food, clothes, water filters, etc.,
before attempting any "investments"; doubly so if you have any doubts at
all about said "investments".

-- Alan

PS: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000yiC ---

"Every large institution heavily invested in all markets is almost
forced to either help keep POG [price of gold] down or to remain on the
sidelines. They simply cannot offload their positions and then get into
gold, as their positions are too large and any attempt to close them out
would trigger exactly the events they want to avoid. This does not mean
that they won't all join the gold rush when it gets under way -- that
would be the one and only way to self-preservation! -- it is just that
they simply cannot stir a finger to help gold get its head start. In
fact, practically everyone in that position will do everything they
possibly can to avoid being fingered by history as having started the
catastrophe!"




Aristotle
Further conversation with Something Else
From your reply, I can see that I unfortunately didn't make the distinction clear in my earlier response to you...that being the indication of which Gold pile would serve which purpose. You said:

something else (6/20/99 - Msg ID:7846) "I have just read your response to my post regarding the BOE sale, as well as your posting 7839. Thank you for taking the time to provide a direct response. It definately is a different and intersting way of viewing the situation. To be honest though, I still don't know if I understand how the BOE sale is supposed to "help" those "poor countries". "

My comments about the 300 tonne incentive for somebody to absorb the financial burden of the write-off was directed at the IMF Gold, specifically. This Gold is under collective management by the principle "player" charged with preserving the integrety of the present System (this 'smoothly' functioning global currency system under auspices of the International Monetary Fund).

You ask, "If someone owes me a debt, by the goodness of my heart I could decide to forgive it. But if that someone owes a debt to someone else (as well as to me), why would I sell my hard assets to help that debt be "forgiven"?"

The IMF acts as the coordinator in this game (let's use Monopoly from my other post), and the game can't continue when the bank is out of cash, and it is all in the hands of a few winning players. Naturally, the winning players would like the game to continue, and the Gold offer is not unlike offering Boardwalk (assuming the bank has it to offer) in exchange for a cash injection that is 30 times its list price. The way that credit/debt money works, the forgiveness of a debt is inflationary in practice no different than a like-sized creation of new money. The mechanics of the path being pursued, however, reveal something about how Boardwalk might be perceived and valued into the future. As a collective, you might jump at the chance to sell Boardwalk for 30 times its list price in order to keep the game going. And it can make a meaningful difference to the poor players of the game.

My good friend from Argentina looked me up yesterday to inquire how I was getting along with things. After exchanging pleasantries, he immediately began bemoaning the state of the Argentine economy, and quoted a very significant percentage of the national budget which goes only to pay the interest on such IMF sponsored loans. Imagine if your personal production and income were exactly adequate to meet your monthly needs plus servicing your past accummulated debts from mismanagement. You are left with nothing to build a better future! Now, if this debt (or some of it) is reduced, you can now save and make improvements for a better future. That is were we stand. The banks have run out of ample fuel for the fire, and the only hope for saving a vestige of The System is to have the winning players redeem vast amounts of their Monopoly money for Boardwalk. And that, alone, will only buy time.

The BoE auction is a beast of another color. It is likely being motivated by the need to bail someone's butt out a jam. But as I had suggested in my first post, the details of the IMF sale (if it receives authorization) may remain obscure; but if you were a winning player that wrote-down a significant amount of your own ledger assets for receipt of Boardwalk, and in the interest of keeping the game alive, wouldn't you also feel an interest in seeing any other offers of Boardwalk be accorded the respect it deserves?

Gold. Best to be gettin' you some. ---Aristotle
Aristotle
AEL (Msg ID:7874) Bravo!
Put your feet up, my good man! Job well done!
koan
ratio of amount of silver to gold
I did not mean to say the natural ratio of silver to gold on earth is 16 to 1 - I do not remember what it is. If someone does know I would appreciate it if they would post it. I think that ratio 16 to 1 has been the historical ratio for relative price of gold to silver. A few years ago people talked about needing $10 silver for normal production, probably higher now. The price will probably need to be much higher than that for supply to meet demand. Especially if we get speculation going. Silver is found near the surface and a lot of the easy rich stuff has been mined. India has a lot of secondary supplies as it is part of their culture. But here is the big point. Would it not seem that it would be much easier for silver to go to $10 an oz than for gold to go to $520 an oz - a simple doubling of prices
Aristotle
Something Else...maybe I'd better finish typing up "Part 2" of the series I started yesterday
That might help build some much-needed context into the thoughts I've just now expressed. Until you see this other side, one fanciful explanation is as believable as any other. Bear with me... ---Aristotle
TownCrier
Oil News (...still waiting for Precious Metals news...)
VENEZUELA GOVT CALLS FOR OPEC "CONGRESS" FOR END 1999
Caracas--Jun 21--The Venezuelan government is calling for a "congress"
of OPEC member countries for the end of this year or the start of 2000 in
the capital of Caracas, Foreign Minister Jose Vicente Rangel said. The
comments came after Iraqi deputy foreign minister Nizar Hamdoon met with
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Hamdoon said he agrees with the
Venezuelan proposal and that the meeting should look for "mechanisms so
that prices rise." Rangel also said "heads of government" from OPEC
countries will be invited to the meeting and non-OPEC oil producing
countries may also attend the meet.

KUWAIT OIL MINISTER SAYS NO REVIEW OF OIL PRODUCTION LEVELS
Kuwait--Jun 20--1459 ET--Kuwaiti oil minister Sheikh Suad Nasser
al-Sabah today ruled out the possibility of changing March's agreement by
oil producers in terms of the amount of the production cuts or in terms of
the duration of the agreement which ends Apr 1, 2000, despite apparent
healthy oil prices. Sheikh Saud, talking to reporters in Kuwait, said that
his county is not in favor of changing the 2.104 mln barrels per day
agreed upon cuts.

KUWAIT OIL MINISTER WARNS AGAINST DELAY IN FOREIGN ROLE PLAN
Kuwait--Jun 20--1744 ET--Kuwait's oil minister expressed concern that
further delays in implementing a 1994 plan to give foreign oil firms a
role in the Gulf states upstream oil industry could waste the chance to
increase its competitiveness as an oil exporter. Our problem in Kuwait is
hesitation in decision-making. The time element is very important because
it affects our credibility with interested foreign oil firms, Sh eikh Saud
Nasser al-Sabah told a seminar in Kuwait. He did not elaborate on the
reasons behind the delay, which he said could kill the project.

Caracas--Jun 21--0906 ET--President Hugo Chavez said that the
country's state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) should increase
its fiscal contribution to the government and fit its business plans
within the goals of the national government, reported Economia Hoy
newspaper.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
mike55
TownCrier's Oil News #7880
If we subscribe to the notion that gold and oil do not flow in the same direction, then, is some of the PM news that we are still waiting for intrinsic to the reports from Kuwait and Venezuela?
TownCrier
U.S. Treasuries end lower on supply, profit-taking
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990621/55.htmlThe Greenspan message is being viewed as not nearly as bullish and reassuring as the initial commentaries on Thursday made it out to be; hedge funds were aggressive sellers.
Cavan Man
AEL#7874
Bravo! Encore! As we say in the midwest, "You really went to school on that one!" Thanks.
TownCrier
Mike55, in my experience, all roads lead to Rome. Better known as gold, and immune to a fall.
I try to bring out for your consideration articles that bear some relevance to the "Five Horsemen of the Dollar Appocalypse" that have gotten widespread discussion here.
Unprecedented Stock Valuations, Introduction of a Major Currency (Euro), Asian Contagion, Y2k, and Rising Oil Prices. For example, see below evidence of a remarkable concern held by Japan in regard to the status of UK's commitment to the EMU. Remarkable, in that the prevailing attitude presented often seems to take on the hue of "Who cares what Britain chooses?" Clearly, Japan wants them in.
--------------
UK-EU INTEGRATION: Prime Minister Tony Blair today appeared to ease
Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi's fears that the UK government was
watering down its enthusiasm for further EU integration and its principled
commitment to join EMU.
Following a meeting between the 2 men, Obuchi's spokesman said Blair had
said the government wanted "to be in the main current of EU integration."
Obuchi's spokesman said the Japanese Prime Minister had not been worried
or "particularly swayed" by newspaper headlines today suggesting Blair had
resolved to delay his promised referendum on membership until late in the
next parliament.

FX: Japanese vice finance minister for international affairs Eisuke
Sakakibara confirmed that Japan has again intervened to buy euro against
the yen today. But he declined to say where the action took place. On
Friday, the Bank of Japan bought euro/yen through the European Central
Bank, and the surprising action sent the pair surging up over 3 yen.
Friday's intervention was later confirmed by the ECB and Japanese finance
minister officials.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 21--
Aug gold edged sideways in a quiet session, settling down 60c at
$260.30 per ounce amid a stronger dollar and continued concerns over
central bank gold sales. Traders said that a little selling by the locals
and a stronger dollar "added more pressure to the market. It's hard to get
gold moving when the dollar is doing so well."

Another trader said that Aug gold will probably set itself up for
another dip to $255. "There's no reason to buy it up," he said.
However, Leonard Kaplan, chief bullion dealer at LGF Bullion Services
said he is fairly positive on gold and he will be
recommending in his newsletter today that clients cover short positions.

"I strongly believe it's headed higher," he said, adding that the latest
news from Switzerland is "enough to tip the market a bit to the bullish
side." He noted that gold dropped back from today's highs on some producer
selling.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $260.3, down 60c; RANGE: $261.3-260.0

SWISS PARLIAMENT REJECTS AMENDMENT REGULATING GOLD SALE EARNINGS
Zurich--Jun 18--The Swiss parliament in a vote of both chambers--Upper and
Lower House--today rejected an amendment to the constitution
designed to regulate how the earnings from the planned sale of 1,300 tonnes of
excess gold reserves by the Swiss National Bank are to be used. This however has
no influence on the SNB's planned gold sales.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
Glitch in Y2K Test Causes Spill Of Raw Sewage Into City Park
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-06/18/126l-061899-idx.htmlThere are no guarantees come 2000...might not be an easy walk in the park. :)
TownCrier
The accidental Armageddon
http://www.theage.com.au/daily/990620/news/news22.htmlY2K and nuclear science...reading for the professional worriers among us.
TownCrier
G8 Leaders Agree On Y2K Awareness Drive
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/bs/story.html?s=v/nm/19990620/bs/group_yk_2.htmlThe leaders will to a much greater extent be drawing attention to millennium problems in all press conferences. Any guesses what heightened public concern will do to our cheap gold supplies? Damn.
searching
Turbohawg - income taxes
I agree with your ananysis 100%. I have spent many hours reading the IRS code and have come to the same conclusion that the Code as it is enforced is illegal. You notice that I did not say the Code was illegal only how it was enforced. You do not have to pay taxes according to the Constitution and the IRS code as written, not enforced. However there is one problem with all of this. THE IRS IS ABOVE THE LAW AND DOES NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW IT. I know you are all saying how is this possible? Well take my word for it. They will do whatever is necessary to collect taxes, legal or illegal, and you have no recourse. You can not beat them so do not try, it has cost me a lot of money. I know I am right and I know the upper crust of the IRS knows that I am right but that does not matter. In the end the IRS will win and you will lose.
See I thought that if you filed the right way or got out the right way that IRS would not violate the law. WAS I EVER WRONG. IRS has learned the main premise of law - make sure that whatever action you take, legal or illegal, that the other person is chasing you. I only post this so that no else will have to go through what I have.
koan
thanks leigh for your 13:26 on silver
For anyone who wants a good overview of the dynamics of silver read Leighs 13:26 article on silver by Franklin Sander. The thesis of the article is that the fundamentals point to the fact that silver should be much more expensive. We may be at the beggining of that realization by the mkt. This article provides a good overview for the metals investor.
turbohawg
AEL and Searching
AEL: I've not seen a better synopsis anywhere. Your posts are always interesting ... wish you posted more. Ditto ET.

Searching: Sorry to hear of your travails. Hang in there ... the day is bound to come when many of the dictator wannabes who participated in the construction of this socialist/fascist state reap the consequences of what they have sown.
The Stranger
BoJ's Support of the Dollar is Hurting Gold. That's About to Change!
Expect BoJ to fail in these attempts to drive down the yen. The notion that even part of the solution to Japan's problems lies in greater exports through a cheaper yen is probably faulty anyway. Japan imports enormous quantities of raw materials (e.g. oil), and a strong yen makes those imports cheaper. With continued strong American demand for Japanese products and recovery well under way in Southeast Asia, Japan's weakest market today is Japan itself. Attempts to depress the yen against the dollar will do nothing to solve this problem and will be abandoned shortly.

The real solutions lie in money creation, corporate restructuring and the reconciliation of bad debts by the banks. All of these efforts have already begun and should yield results soon enough. Japan is already experiencing an acceleration in the influx of foreign investment capital that will render the BoJ effort fruitless.

Strength in the dollar may have played a role in the tech rally (or should I say "cyclicals decline") that happened today. The major question facing money managers right now is the same that frequently confronts this forum. Are we headed for greater worldwide growth plus inflation, or will the Fed choke this thing off with higher rates. If the Fed contains inflation, you'll want to be invested in (tech) companies who improve efficiency for there customers. But, if we are to have a pick up in growth plus inflation, you'll want to be in cyclicals and inflation beneficieries, like GOLD!

DON'T BET ON THE FED SLOWING THIS THING DOWN. Higher interest rates alone have never stopped inflation anywhere, anytime, anyhow!

mike55
TownCrier
Your ongoing contributions to this forum are most appreciated by me, and I'm sure, by many others. My earlier post was based on what I've read here and in FOOTSTEPS relative to the gold-oil relationship, namely, that when we "read between the lines" on the oil news we gain further insight to gold in this unfolding story. "Who cares what Britain choses?" regarding the Euro -- it is folly to ignore or downplay their true intent and actions as you have shown. The Five Horsemen are indeed alive.

I don't want to turn discussion here to Y2K -- there's plenty of other venues for that. I've posted my thoughts here before relative to the effects I feel we may endure vis-a-vis economic slowdown due to possible glitches in electronic financial transactions, raw material and finished goods delivery, infrastructure, etc. The link you provided on the LA Sewage Treatment Y2K test was of interest as it is similar to an event earlier this year in our area. Long story short -- one of our major healthcare companies embarked on their Y2K preparedness and "workaround" programs in late January of this year. I found it odd that by March we still had not received a single Explanation of Benefits form, yet my family had several doctor's office visits. Then in late March, the story came out in the news that the carrier had been proactive (as well they should) in doing their testing, but the system incurred major problems. Doctors and hospitals were not getting paid for services rendered, and were beginning to bill patients directly for the portion that was to be covered by the carrier. It took until late April before things were resolved. The good news is that it appears the carrier did a good job of fixing the first quarter problems, as all my statements, and those of co-workers have turned out correct. Will others be so fortunate? I hope so, but think not.

Once again, TownCrier, thanks for all the news you provide here and the thought it stimulates. Keep up the good work!!
mike55
Aristotle -- Part 1
Thanks for your "In the Beginning" post #7839 yesterday. The tale you are so kindly beginning to tell is most appreciated. As time allows, please carry on!!!
The Stranger
Japan Denies Weakening Yen to Boost Exports
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/y.htmlSomebody over at Reuters must have been lurking at the USAGOLD forum tonight.
The Stranger
Swiss Gold Sales Less Certain
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/990621/ny_world_g_1.htmlThe nice thing about being in something that has been written off as dead is that all the surprises go your way.
Gandalf the White
Did anyone post this before ? Sorry, but I did not see it. <;-)
Friday June 11, 4:10 pm Eastern Time
U.S. Panel OKs Tariff on Japan Steel
By ANICK JESDANUN Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. steel producers won a crucial ruling Friday when the U.S. International Trade Commission approved punitive tariffs to combat low-priced Japanese shipments. Tariffs ranging from 18 percent to 67 percent will be ordered by the Clinton administration within weeks. Those tariffs will effectively make Japanese steel more expensive to sell in the United States, offering domestic producers some relief. The trade commission ruled 6-0 that Japanese pricing practices on hot-rolled carbon steel, the industry's main product, have or could hurt domestic
producers. The Commerce Department previously declared the pricing illegal. Curtis H. Barnette, chairman and chief executive of Bethlehem Steel Corp., considered the ruling a vindication for the industry, which blames low-priced imports for thousands of layoffs. But he said tariffs are not a cure-all. The U.S. industry has been pushing for
stronger sanctions, such as quotas covering all steel products from all countries. ``This is just a further step in a lengthy process needed to end our crisis in
the industry,'' Barnette said. ``The vote clearly demonstrates the serious injury we have been sustaining, but our problems continue.'' The import surge last year came in the wake of the Asian economic crisis, which
lowered demand for steel abroad and forced foreign producers to turn to the healthier U.S. economy. The tariffs, which will be made retroactive to February, will likely be in place at least five years. Japanese steel producers blamed politics for the ruling. ``We are disappointed that a majority of the commissioners, facing overwhelming political pressure, ignored the facts and imposed long-term restrictions on hot-rolled steel imports,'' said Hidenori Tazawa, executive vice president for NKK America Inc. He said the tariffs ``will raise prices and limit supply availability and choice for U.S. steel users.'' Another executive, Masaki Sato of Nippon Steel U.S.A. Inc., said earlier that his company is likely to appeal to the U.S. Court of International Trade in New
York. The court handles disputed cases from the trade commission, a fact-finding agency independent from the administration. Hot-rolled steel can be used as is in such applications as construction or turned into higher-grade products for appliances or automobiles. Friday's ruling would not apply to other steel products or to other countries. Hot-rolled shipments from Japan already have gone down to almost insignificant levels partly because of the threat of tariffs, so the vote was mostly about
sustaining those reductions. Supporters of global quotas are hoping for a Senate vote on the issue later this
month. The House overwhelmingly passed a quota bill in March by a 289-141 vote, despite the threat of a presidential veto. The U.S. industry accused Japanese, Russian and Brazilian producers of illegally dumping hot-rolled steel in the United States at prices below production costs or home-market prices. The Clinton administration has tentatively struck deals with Russia and Brazil in which those countries could avoid tariffs by voluntarily reducing steel shipments. The foreign producers argued that the pricing trends result from normal market forces. They added that the U.S. industry's claims of harm were exaggerated because profitability and production declines last year followed one of the industry's best years ever.
---
Tweddeldedum
Thankyou
I have been following your forum and wanted to express my appreciation for the good info and intentions. Follow the GATA group closely. I am acquainted with a few of them and they are committed and for real. Go Gata Go Gold.
Technician
Low in gold
Everyone should have opportunity to nail the bottom of gold and I am taking my opportunity. On my web site I have continuosly talked of an impending bottom and continued to say that it was becoming more and more oversold; buy bullion and mines but not yet futures. Well, if I am to trust my indicators I am so proud of, the bottom is in, as of close yesterday 21 June. So, I said it. The bottom is in and a rally to $290 will follow.
Then probably reaction back to 240-270 area (Unlikely to make new low but within context of model.) Then, after basing for one to three months (from today) a major new bull market. Model says it is it is time to play bull futures where many well defined entry points should present themselves over a period of one to 3 years. At least that is what the tea leaves say. I am buying and only getting out with closes at new lows (low risk to possible gain). Anyone one else with calls on this thing. Worst can happen is that you come out looking silly. Please, just my observations and am not advising anyone to buy gold futures. This is just a documentation of my viewpoint. Go read another opinion and it may say gold is going to $240 or $150 or whatever. Good luck gold bugs.






Oregon Geezer
Leigh message #7859
Sure local leaders responding to Y2K problems would be preferable to distant Beltway Boys handing out the orders. However, if you lived here in this land between Patty Murray's Washington state and Babs Boxer's Californy, you would soon see the influence of our local liberals. Socialism is alive and well here in the Peoples' Republic of Oregon. We got a govmanure who wants to slop more and more taxpayers' dollars to a state health plan, the schools, public transit and on and on. The largest gulag, Portland, is headed by a female liberal cut from the New York pattern. The urban highways are clogged and her answer is more light rail. She whines about the homeless and wants the cops to be nicer.
The problem is that real work is not being done and I have no confidence that these two have a clue about how to solve real Y2K problems. For these reasons and others I have taken it upon myself to take care of myself and my wife. Part of this includes my purchase of gold coins from CPM and other financial moves. I don't expect a profit from my gold purchase but it is the only way I could see to protect some of my assets and perhaps have some barter power if needed.
I guess it boils down to this: I don't trust gumment, any gumment. The only real helping hand is the one at the end of our arm.
TownCrier
Morning tea leaves-- IMM currency futures trade mostly lowere early
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/o5.html"The euro has put policy makers in a straightjacket." according to an analyst.
Good! That means the currency is nuetral and functioning like money should. Money should not be a tool of government to centrally manage economic affairs.
TownCrier
Russia Still Mired in Crisis (A good read)
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990622/crisis_rus_1.htmlAn economist said, "It's a question of political will and of national consensus. Russia doesn't have a clear idea of what kind of country it wants to be, much less how to get there."
The key is the currency. It has to be trustworthy and honest. Economic development begins simply with an honest farming and mining base in a resourse-rich country like Russia. Let the entreprenuers fill the niches. Sound money is the key--Russia must move to gold to walk confidently out of the dark ages.
TownCrier
Long, costly haul to solid banking in Mexico
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990621/bd9.htmlCloser to home...
It will be many years and many billions of dollars more before the "Achilles heel" of the Mexican economy -- its financial system -- can play a real role in economic growth by starting to lend again, banking analysts said.
Tomcat
Gandalf the White

Your post on steel trade tarrifs/barriers is very important. Protectionism like this is the fisrt step to curtailed international trade. This will, in the long term, induce foriegn holders of treasury notes to sell them. Trade barriers of any kind not only weaken the dollar, they weaken the entire IMF/SDR system. This is one more big reason to hold gold.
AEL
thanks, Leigh
... for the Sanders URL (http://www.the-moneychanger.com/html/mmm/silver.html)
... very good overview, useful; thanks!
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Report: A Call to Action: Time to Telephone Your Favorite Congressman and Senator
MARKET REPORT(6/22/99): Gold was steady today with both the Swiss and IMF
sales appearing to be in political trouble. Another attempt was made by the Swiss ruling
party to push gold sale legislation through the Swiss Parliament and, again, it was rebuffed.
Notable in this latest rejection of the government's plan was "a rare alliance of
Switzerland's Left and Right political parties... to defeat a constitutional amendment that
would have permitted gold to be transferred from the Swiss National Bank to outside
agencies and thus have permitted the proceeds of gold sales to fund directly
government-approved projects." Robert Pringle of the World Gold Council's Centre for
Public Policy Studies said, "This development today in the Swiss National Assembly
highlights the complexity of this issue and diminishes the possibility of sales in the near
future." Click here for full details.

Similarly the gold industry worldwide has mounted an all out offensive in the U.S.
Congress to stop the International Monetary Fund from selling 10 million ounces of gold.
The sales must be approved by Congress in order to proceed. Yesterday we rated the IMF
sale passing Congress a 50-50 possibility. Bobby Godsell of Anglogold, the world's
largest mining company, yesterday called the sales "politically and morally irresponsible."
South Africa's Godsell is in Washington this week along with the president of South
Africa's National Union of Mineworkers to lobby Congress on the sales. Additionally
Colorado

Governor Bill Owen's office forwarded USAGOLD a letter from the Western Governors'
Association urging President Bill Clinton to "immediately withdraw its support for an IMF
sale of any amount of its gold reserves." The letter cites the fact that the United States is the
world's second largest gold producer and that the amount the IMF hopes to sell is "only
slightly less than the total 1998 U.S. production." The letter goes on to suggest that "we are
confident the IMF has viable alternatives for these programs -- alternatives that are not
harmful to critical Western industries.

We would like to suggest that all the goldmeisters would be well served to contact their
Senators and Congressman to express their disapproval of the IMF sales. If you do so, you
will be joining in with some powerful forces gathering to stop this thing. Need I explain the
importance of this effort to you as a gold holder? Not just with respect to your own
portfolio holdings, but to send a message to Washington that here is a large and active gold
constituency for this and other gold related issues that might come up in the future. We have
strong backing in Congress. We need to encourage our friends and let the not-so-friendly
know we are out here.

As you go through the various press reports today (Reuters, Bridge, etc.) you will note the
events described here are given short-shrift as we have grown to expect from the anti-gold
mainstream financial press. The reason for this is that they don't want the gold advocates to
experience the thrill of victory, or worse, mobilize to stop the IMF sales. There was a time
when they could get away with such maneuvering. With the advent of the internet, we now
have the tools to fight back. We hear much discussion among gold advocates about how
unfairly gold has been treated. Here's a chance to act and act effectively. There is no
guarantee we will win, but if we do nothing, we are certain to lose.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
The Stranger
Of Straightjackets and Three-Legged Races
Townie- Your post reminded me of this comment I made back in April (4-23, #5056):

"As long as everything remains in balance for the 11 member nations, this experiment may well work out, at least for tourists,
anyway. But what about when inbalances inevitably occur. When unemployment in Italy gets so bad that the Italian premier
deliberately allows his deficits to grow beyond the agreed upon 3% of GDP, for example. Will others simply coax him back
into compliance, or will this chain only be as strong as its weakest link?

The point is, governments in Europe may come to resent the restrictive effects of economic confederacy. They may, indeed,
come to feel like men in a three-legged-race where the rest of the world's economies get to run untethered."

Note: Weeks after I raised this issue, Italy, in fact, asked for, and got, a temporary exemption from the 3% rule - precisely because of unemployment. In fact, yesterday, there were rumblings that Italian officials have discussed retreating from the Euro entirely. Again, I would emphasize that a unified currency would be of enormous benefit to the whole world, were it possible. But a common currency shared by disparate governments and cultures will be no mean feat. No mean feat, that is, unless it is to be backed by GOLD!

Interestingly, much of the world did achieve de-facto currency union under the gold standard, which existed from 1880-1913. In today's WSJ, Christopher Huhne, of the Fitch rating service, argues that cross border investment was greater, as a percentage of gross world product, during that period, than it is even today. No wonder Wim Duisenberg is so rigid about gold backing for the Euro. One wonders why it is hard for so many others to see the light.
koan
"silver marches on"
Comex silver stocks down again yesterday to low 73 million range. Silver up a bit again today despite other soft PM's. The quote above is from Gollum at Kitco - always my favorite poster over there. I Have noticed over the last few months his eye is on this developing story more than most. I added to my long postions today buying leaps of a major silver company.
TownCrier
Summers says Russia needs rule of law and property rights
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/s0.htmlYeah, that was the part I neglected earlier. Thanks for the assist, Mr. Summers...even if you ARE a Keynesian weasel ;-)
TownCrier
Alert: Summers Says U.S. Trade Deficit 'Serious Problem'
This is a headline only at this stage...but it speaks volumes.
The Stranger
Townie
Suddenly, I find myself doing play-by-play. The Summers remark is a breath of fresh air. Perhaps, as Rubin departs, so will the effort to talk up the dollar.
TownCrier
UK euro-ready in 2001 'at the earliest'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/the_launch_of_emu/euro_latest/newsid_375000/375434.stmTrade and Industry Secretary Stephen Byers has said it is unlikely that the UK will meet the five economic criteria to join Europe's Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) "before 2001 at the earliest".

People sometimes forget that euro membership isn't available to all comers. They weed out the weak. That's why Italy was lectured recently.
TownCrier
This is a must read: Sterling 'a luxury', says MPC member
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/the_launch_of_emu/euro_latest/newsid_371000/371374.stmAn interesting comment: structural economic differences can just as easily persist if sterling remains outside Emu, "because exchange rates are driven by financial markets and not fundamental economic performances between countries."
The Stranger
P.S.
How fitting that Rubin's parting remarks reassure us as to the lack of inflation, and Summers opens with a warning about the trade deficit. The deficit exists because, despite rapid U.S. monetary growth, the dollar has remained strong. When this Emporer's-new-clothes of dollar strength is exposed for all to see, the inevitable result will be further import price increases (i.e.- U.S. inflation).
SteveH
Computer broke, august gold now...
$259.90.

I ran over my computer checking the front-left tire of my car for a nail. Je retournerai la semaine prochaine.

WAC (Wide Awake Club)
TownCrier Msg ID 7912
And the Greeks aren't even allowed pass the gate.
TownCrier
Stock Markets fall at day end...And on the lighter side: France edges toward lifting ban on Coke
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/2d.htmlFrance slapped a ban on Coke drinks canned in Dunkirk as well as those imported from Belgium after some 200 people in Belgium and France complained of nausea, dizziness and stomach aches after consuming the beverages.

It has not been as widely reported that Jack Daniel's Distillery also came under similar scrutiny... Go figure.
USAGOLD
UK & Euro through the Prism of Gold Reserves
Some might recall that I questioned UK's ability to make the grade at EU from the start. Now in light of the gold sale and the exposure of apparent weaknesses, Blair's "daft" to join now comment is pretty much what I expected.

Let's just look at this from the point of view of gold reserves:

Britain's post sale gold reserves will be 300 tons. Germany has about 3700 tons; Italy 2600 tons; and France 3200 tons. If they came into Europe with 300 tons, it would be the smallest gold reserve in the Union.

Now let's look at voting percentages for EU decisions (voted cumulatively like a corporate shareholder vote). Germany has 24%; Italy 15% and France 20%. Britain, according to the European Central Bank would like to enter commanding 15% of the vote.

Why would Germany, France and Italy allow Britain command 15% in with such weak reserves while they came in with some of the strongest? On the average the top three continental countries "paid" 160 tons of gold per percentage point. Britain wants to pay 20 tons per percentage point. More likely they would be offered a 2.5% position based on gold reserves. (I am not considering other reserve criteria just gold as an indicator of overall strength or weakness. Other reserves might raise their prospects but not to 15%.)

Looking at a 2.5% stake in Euroland instead of 15% is virtually unsaleable to the British people. That's why Blair terms it "daft." On the Euro-side, with all the problems with Italy and after the experience Germany had bringing East Germany on board, I don't think they could sell continental European voters on letting someone in at a higher percentage than what they are qualified to assume.

The other part of my analysis is that this is just the beginning of Britain's troubles. More on that some other time. In my view, Britain has more a chance of becoming the fifty first state than a member of the European Union. What we heard today with the "daft" comment is the warning bell.
TownCrier
"Mr. Yen" says Japan sold yen to tame bulls
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/0y.htmlThe yen's strength against the euro has been a factor in its strength against the dollar, Sakakibara noted.

You sort it out... I've got some gold to buy.
USAGOLD
Per Holtzman's Request..........

Hello Michael,
I commit the following text into the public domain. It is yours to publish as you see fit, although I hope you will place it in the forum as a single post. It's long but it's meant to be a unit. I claim no copyright over it at all, because I crave no notoriety, but you've allowed lurkers like me to learn from this forum and I wanted to return the favor.
Thanks,
"Holtzman"
----------------------------------------------

Please call me Holtzman.

For over a year now, I've been quietly gathering lines of computation until I felt I had some glimpse of the big picture. The lack of hard numbers on this subject is profound, but after much digging I've found enough to make a first approximation analysis. I look forward to having my better interpretations expanded on and my poorer interpretations rendered smartly with a three pound mallet. Both reactions are equally welcome as long as they bring us all nearer to the truth. I'm particularly keen to fill in the holes in my data where I've had to make assumptions. But before I get into Gold M2 and mining stock analysis, let me start with gold's place in today's world...

--------------
Equal Footing
--------------

Since 1971, gold has been an independent world currency on an equal competitive footing with dollars, rupiah, etc.

How can gold and rupiah be on equal footing? After all, it's been well established here that gold has intrinsic value while a rupiah note is intrinsically kindling.

But both depend on faith and confidence to make them work. Specifically, every seller in every sale makes a decision based on faith: if I accept that buyer's money (gold or paper) in return for my product or service, how likely is it that I will be able to turn around and pawn that money off to someone else for an equivalent product or service?

The public's level of faith in any particular fiat currency is the perceived likelihood that the issuing government will maintain the value of that currency long enough for the holder to buy something with it. Gold doesn't have a single issuing government to maintain its value. In fact, it has several governments trying their best to maintain their fiat currencies' value at gold's expense.

But that doesn't deny it equal footing as a currency. Joe in the U.S. is just as likely to want to own gold as he is to own rupiah because everything in Joe's world is bought with dollars and the dollar is stable from where he sits. But Sapta in Indonesia is just as likely to want to own gold as he is to own dollars because, from where he sits, either one is far more reliable than his own local rupiah.

Today's exchange rate between dollar/rupiah, or rupiah/gold, or gold/dollar, is a measure of the difference in levels of faith which humanity as a whole has placed on each of the compared currencies at that moment.

The rupiah tanked against the dollar in 1997 because, on balance, Clinton careening towards impeachment was not as disturbing as Soeharto careening towards blood in the streets. The rupiah tanked against gold to almost the same degree for precisely the same reason: faith in gold was stronger than faith in Soeharto.

Gold surged against the dollar in the 70s, then tanked against the dollar in the 80s and 90s, for precisely the same reason: faith in gold was stronger than faith in Nixon, Ford, and Carter, but faith in gold has been weaker than faith in more recent U.S. administrations.

>From 1971 back to the Great Depression, gold was intentionally obscured in both the communist bloc and in the anticommunist bloc. POG's track record during that time is no more useful than telemetry transmitted by Voyager 2 while it was still stowed inside its launch capsule. Gold had been mothballed then. Still, mining figures during that time are useful.

Prior to the Great Depression, gold was not an independent world currency. An ounce of gold was simply 4.25 Sovereigns or $20.70. More importantly, 4.25 Sovereigns WERE $20.70. Why be afraid of a One World Currency? We used to have one in the 1800s and it worked.

But for the present, gold is no different (no more or less special) than a dollar or a rupiah. You can no more redeem gold for a dollar than you can redeem rupiah for a dollar. Rather, you exchange one for the other, since all three are freestanding currencies.

--------------
Gold is only barely a commodity
--------------

The commodity vs. currency argument reminds me of the wave vs. particle argument about light. Gold is both, just like light is both. Unlike light, however, gold is nowhere near balanced between the two personas. Gold is overwhelmingly currency and only barely a commodity. Why so? Consumption.

Take oil for example. Oil is not and never can be a viable physical currency. It's too bulky for one thing. More to the point, oil is valuable because it can be destroyed with benefit. You destroyed a measure of petrol to get to work this morning. Its destruction produced value for you. Come to think on it, you ate food for lunch. The destruction of that plant or animal produced value for you. That's the definition of a commodity.

Now hold a Maple Leaf in your hand and ask yourself under what imaginable conditions it might be beneficial to you to destroy that coin? The same question applies to a $100 federal reserve note. Regardless of your pride (or lack thereof) in the Fed, how could it possibly benefit you to burn that paper? That's the definition of a currency.

On the other hand, it's fairly easy to think of a benefit from destroying silver... a Kodak moment. Silver is balanced about halfway between commodity and currency. In bullion form, it is universally recognized as a store of value, yet most annual production is consumed and destroyed by the photography industry.

Platinum and Palladium are firmly on the commodity side of the spectrum. They certainly can act as currency in the short term, but their aboveground supplies deflate at such a high rate that society won't accept them as long term currencies.

And then there's gold. Some gold is (effectively) destroyed into teeth fillings, gold leaf decoration, and more recently electrical connections. But that offtake is a tiny percentage of the total mass of gold ever mined. That makes gold very different indeed from any other natural resource, hence its character as 98% currency and only 2% commodity.

Speaking of intrinsic value, certainly food and clothing and shelter have intrinsic value. Even oil has intrinsic value as its destruction gets you where you want to go. But does gold have intrinsic value? Depends what you mean by intrinsic. If you're stranded in a desert with a couple thousand ounces of gold and only two literjons of water, suddenly gold doesn't seem so intrinsically valuable anymore. When people say gold has intrinsic value, they seem to be meaning something quite different. Gold the element is not all that valuable by itself.

Rather, humanity as a whole imbues gold with value as a currency for reasons of habit and faith, in all respects save one precisely as humanity imbues dollars and rupiah with value. Profiting from owning gold, then, is exactly parallel to profiting from owning dollars or rupiah.

Once you allow that gold is just another foreign currency, just as subject to market forces, you realize that gold has cycles. It isn't steady throughout time. Just like the dollar (though thankfully out of phase with the dollar), gold has times of phobia (POG lower than common sense would dictate) and times of mania (POG higher than it ought to be).

As it happens, today appears to be a phobia time for gold, so buying gold in spite of that fear is more rational than buying the disproportionately overvalued dollar. When things get the other way round, though (and they will), don't stay in maniacal gold. When you see Carlton Sheets on television offering to teach Joe American how to profit from the coming gold bull market by buying Franklin Mint coins, it'll be time to run away from gold.

Okay, enough philosophy. Let's get into numbers.

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Gold described as a currency
--------------

Since gold is indeed just another freestanding currency, we can analyze it precisely as we would analyze euros, dollars, or rupiah.

Any particular currency, fiat or precious metal, has a supply and an inflation/deflation rate.

With fiat currencies, supply is categorized as to liquidity into M1 ready cash, M2 savings accounts, and M3 time deposits (penalty for early withdrawal). Privileged institutions create fiat cash out of nothing. People toss cash in the trashcan (pennies in particular). Governing bodies manipulate the supply and the inflation/deflation rate either by actual intervention or by making threats.

Precise parallels exist in the currency of gold:

Gold M1 - physical gold in individual-friendly form: bullion coins, 10 tola bars, etc.
Gold M2 - physical gold in government-friendly form: London Good Delivery bars
Gold M3 - physical gold in harder-to-get-at form: mining reserves, jewelry, scrap
Derivatives - paper gold: futures contracts, options, lease contracts
Inflators - mining, sales of long-hidden caches, recovery of scrap
Deflators - electroplating, gold leaf, high-end numismatic gold
Gold Fed - open market buying and selling of gold by central banks

--------------
Going to the mattresses
--------------

You can tuck money into your mattress either as fiat papers or as gold coins. In both cases, you receive no interest income, yet in both cases you leave yourself open to the rate of inflation of the currency you chose to tuck.

The Dollar M1+M2+M3 supply has historically been inflated by about 3.5% annually if I remember correctly.

The Gold M1+M2+M3 supply has historically been Inflated by about 2% annually due to mining.

The Gold M1+M2+M3 supply has also been Deflated by non-recoverable uses such as electroplating and gold leaf... how likely it is that the gold faithfully applied to Buddhist statues, or the gold coined into a Stella, will ever be reclaimed into bullion?

I don't have figures for this Deflator effect on gold (I would dearly love to know). But, in combination with the Inflator effect from mining, the net result is that gold supply increases at no more than 2% annually, and may well decrease. In contrast, the dollar supply increases at 3.5% over the long term and 13% in the recent term. Held over long periods, then, gold is better than dollars in a mattress.

--------------
Passbook savings
--------------

However, few dollars are in fact held in mattresses, even though most gold is. Dollars held in passbook savings have historically yielded about 1% or so above inflation. Held over long periods, then, dollars in passbook savings grow by 1% in purchasing power while gold dwindles by 2%. Measured over long periods of good economic times, then, dollars in the bank are better than gold.

--------------
The value of immortality
--------------

While gold is a very poor Growth vehicle, it does have the singular power of Remaining valuable even after the government which coined it has expired. This is that one significant difference between gold and fiat currencies I mentioned above.

A German pre-Nazi pre-hyperinflation 1911 twenty mark gold coin is still worth nearly a quarter of an ounce of gold. But a twenty mark banknote (which carried equal weight in the pockets and cash registers of 1911) is today worth next to nothing.

Having said that, let's say that someone took his twenty marks in 1911, exchanged them for Swiss francs, and deposited them in a Swiss bank. By today, enough interest would have been earned to buy several twenty mark gold coins at today's prices.

--------------
Asset Allocation
--------------

That's why I don't put all of my savings into gold coins, at least certainly not for long periods. I find the most constructive outlook on this is to begin with the assumption that no single investment will "make a killing." Rather, I assume that any single investment I make will, guaranteed, lose at least some of the savings I invest in it.

On that premise, my goal is to minimize that guaranteed loss by spreading my savings into many different assets: gold, dollars and other fiat currencies in the mattress, bank CDs, bonds, stocks, possibly real estate under better market circumstances, etc. With that broad a base, it's absolutely certain that one of those categories will take a mortal fall, but no single category is so big that my savings as a whole takes a mortal fall.

One of you posted an excellent sentiment a while back: you'll know you've reached the right proportion of gold ownership when you neither fear you have too little nor fear you have too much. I'd say that goes for every asset class. Each gives a different sort of reassurance. Gold offers assurance against apocalypse. Stocks offer assurance against everyone else in the country prospering while you sit on your mattress. CDs offer assurance against the possibility of an outcome somewhere in between. One scenario will be right in 2000, one will be right in 2001, one will be right in 2020. But no one can reliably guess which one will be right when.

--------------
Transaction Costs
--------------

Walk into your neighborhood bank and ask them to change a 100 for ten 10s. The teller may (pointlessly) act as if she's above that sort of task, but it won't really cost the bank anything to do this.

But hand Michael a 1-ounce Eagle and ask him for ten 1/10 Eagles in change, and it would financially damage him to make this swap. Why? Because even though gold is a world currency, it is nowhere near as often used as currency (at least, not Gold M1... Gold M2 is indeed swapped in exactly this manner between governments every day).

Common usage and broad acceptance reduce transaction costs. Infrequent usage causes painfully large transaction costs, for all involved.

One of the arguments in favor of establishing the euro was that a lorry driver going from Portugal to Denmark and hoping to eat 3 meals a day would have to perform half a dozen currency exchanges on his journey, each exchange wasting money for no particular benefit. By contrast, a truck driver going from Maine to California has no such overhead cost.

Precisely the same transaction cost happens between gold and other currencies. A 1-ounce Krugerrand is as near to spot as any Gold M1 object can get, but it still costs more than spot to buy, and less than spot to sell. Premium is a misleading term for that spread. It's a currency exchange fee.

Anything more than a few percentage points, however, and something else is being priced in. A St. Gaudens will always cost more than a Krugerrand because it's permanently rarer. A modern U.S. Eagle isn't going to be sold for a Krugerrand's price because it's temporarily rarer (and more politically correct). An Eagle is not a collector's item, however, any more than a $100 federal reserve note is. There are too many of both.

By the way, the Euro is not at all a new idea. In the 1800s, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Italy et alia unified their currencies on a common gold standard. A 20 Lire coin and a 20 Franc were identical in gold content and were even minted to the same diameter so they'd roll interchangeably. Bingo. No transaction costs across those borders.

--------------
Lease rates
--------------

Aboveground gold has been steadily increased by mining and steadily decreased by electroplating, resulting in a net increase in gold supply of less than 2% per year. I suspect this explains why central banks lend gold at 1-2% when those same banks lend fiat currencies at higher rates.

There've been several discussions both here and elsewhere on fractional reserve lending: when all borrowers in total are ultimately obligated to pay back more money than exists, the debt cycle winds in on itself. Issuers of fiat currencies can keep that nonsense going for long periods because they can print more paper when no one is looking, but lenders of gold don't have nearly as much leeway. They cannot, over the long term, charge a higher lease rate than the rate of gold supply inflation because they cannot demand more gold interest than can possibly be brought above ground in that timeframe. The price of gold soars versus fiat currencies (and commodities) following those periods when bankers forget that.

--------------
Inflation between the Ms
--------------

Big quandary: Gold M1+M2+M3 has been quietly increasing by less than 2% per year. Dollar M1+M2+M3 has been radically inflating at 13% over the past year. So why on earth is the dollar/gold exchange rate tanking by double digits?

Big contributor: the fear that massive chunks of Gold M2 are about to be moved into Gold M1.

Inertia is a wonderful thing for currencies, both fiat and gold. Untold billions of U.S. dollars are in mattresses outside the U.S., and so far they've stayed there because the risk of dollar devaluation is less than the risk of local currency devaluation. Result: the U.S. can export its inflation to the rest of the world. Those paper dollars overseas are more illiquid than domestic 10-year CDs. At least, so far they have been.

Gold M2 used to be just as illiquid. A London Good Delivery bar takes a fair amount of effort to be wrought and assayed. Once one is formed, there is powerful incentive to leave it that way. And how many individuals regularly buy or sell LGDs? At roughly 400 ounces each, recent events have brought their dollar price down to nearly $100,000, but what individual of normal means would dare own one (in other words, who could you possibly sell it to)? Talk about all the eggs in one basket. Until recently, this established two very distinct markets for physical gold: the M1 for normal people and the M2 for the big boys. There was very little if any cross-talk.

The onset of derivatives (futures, options, etc.), however, has changed all that. It's now possible for a citizen to buy a futures contract to buy an LGD bar at some future date, only he won't actually try to take delivery. He just hopes there'll be a profitable difference in an LGD's dollar price between the date he bought the contract and the date he sells that contract to someone who truly does want to take delivery of an LGD bar. Suddenly LGDs appear to be as liquid as sovereigns.

At the same time, the fiat confidence game gets longer in the tooth with each local currency panic. Holland's tulip mania crashed on the day a farmer, shown a tulip bulb which had just been purchased for the cost of a house, said in astonishment, "But this is just an onion." Everyone around him suddenly had a moment of clarity and ran for the exits. Holland ceased to be a world power when that bubble burst.

Important: the exact same free fall happened two decades ago when POG was north of $800. That which has happened before can happen again.

And, sooner or later, someone in today's world is going to ask how a U.S. dollar bill is any more trustworthy than a rupiah bill. I should think no other scenario puts so mortal a terror into the hearts of central bankers worldwide. Trying to prevent that unmanageable shock to the system, central bankers issuing both rupiah and dollars have phenomenal motivation to work in concert.

At least in public. Germany and the U.S. cheer on the efforts of other entities to sell their gold, but have no intention of selling any of their own. China's inconvertible fiat currency gives it the freedom to buy gold openly without a care as to the fate of its competitor central banks.

Still, it remains the prime task of central bankers to deride any alternative asset which the public might come to see as a safe haven from fiat. Ultimately, it's self-defeating, but that doesn't mean they can't prolong it for years more than we wish.

Complicating matters is that both derision and derivatives have intertwined. Recent BoE actions are motivated by both needs, but I agree with goldnbones (5/7/99; 13:16:12MDT - Msg ID:5719) that it's more to do with contractual obligation than with spin control.

I do not believe BoE is selling unfettered physical metal. Rather, BoE seems to be selling the title documents to gold it no longer physically holds. This would certainly explain why the auction is limited to LBMA & friends, the firms which have spent the past decade borrowing massive quantities of gold from BoE & other CBs.

This isn't a sale, any more than it's a sale when a car finance company hands you your car title following your payment of the last installment. The sale occurred years ago, you've just been paying interest on the debt to the bank since then. Now you're settling up.

Of course, to read that, it means that BoE has most likely lent out 2/3 of the gold it continues to tell the public it owns. Only of course the borrowers can't round up enough actual bars to pay back the debt in gold as originally promised (or are able to but choose not to for reasons of their own). So BoE is letting them balloon-payoff the loan in dollars/euros/yen. The alternative would be for one or more bullion houses to declare that they are not able to pay their debts. Systemic threat, a la LTCM.

Hmmm, if 2/3 of BoE's publicly held gold really isn't there anymore, I wonder what proportion of the whole 31,400 tonnes theoretically held planetwide by CBs and IMF is, in fact, still there. In other words, the threat of CBs having 15 years of accumulated mining poised to dump on the market may, in fact, be mostly bark and little bite.

This reminds me a lot of J.P. Morgan's sneak attack in the 1890s when he quietly exported so much gold from the U.S. to England that he was then able to corner the U.S. and outpower the president. Have you ever noticed how the presidents you never heard of were all from that time period? It's because they weren't the ones in charge.

--------------
So where has the CB gold gone?
--------------

We have a total aboveground gold supply of about 137,000 tonnes. What I don't know (and would love to know) is the proportions which are London Good Delivery bars, bullion coins, numismatic coins, and jewelry/other.

My guess is that LGDs outweigh bullion coins by at least 4 to 1. Central banks and their close kindred officially hold 31,400 tonnes (perhaps much less, and I should think 90% of whatever they hold is in the form of LGDs.

In the absence of firmer numbers, then, I make wild assumptions:

15% CBs/Governments
10% private citizens holding bullion
40% private citizens holding numis/jewelry/other
35% ?
USAGOLD
Here's the rest of Holtzman's Analysis
So where has the CB gold gone?
--------------

We have a total aboveground gold supply of about 137,000 tonnes. What I don't know (and would love to know) is the proportions which are London Good Delivery bars, bullion coins, numismatic coins, and jewelry/other.

My guess is that LGDs outweigh bullion coins by at least 4 to 1. Central banks and their close kindred officially hold 31,400 tonnes (perhaps much less, and I should think 90% of whatever they hold is in the form of LGDs.

In the absence of firmer numbers, then, I make wild assumptions:

15% CBs/Governments
10% private citizens holding bullion
40% private citizens holding numis/jewelry/other
35% ?

So who's holding the final 35% (or similarly significant chunk) of aboveground tonnage? My guess is super-citizens. That is, people like Warren Buffett (although probably Not Warren because he's keener on silver), drug lords and other highly successful entrepreneurs, distaff cousins of ruling families, etc. They most likely hold their gold as LGDs, for pretty much the same reason that you prefer not to receive your salary in tuppences or nickels.

As long as these super-citizens sit on their bars of gold for generations, they have no effect on the POG.

But those privately held LGDs do change hands, and it would seem there's been an increase in swapping recently. As in all acquisition games, someone wants to own more and someone wants to reduce holdings.

Why does the POG panic when a CB sells? After all, the CB is most likely selling either to other CBs or to a super-citizen. Besides, it's just as valid to say that the selling CB is caving in to a sufficiently attractive bid from a buyer who wants to own more LGDs. Why should that be interpreted as bad for POG?

I think a lot of it has to do with proportion. A few years ago, some nature show interviewed a scuba diver who'd recently been floating at the surface when a blue whale had cruised alongside him, its back arching like a mountain only a few feet in front of his face. Describing it after the fact, the diver said that only one thought had gone through his mind as it happened... BIG. Very BIG. Really Really BIG.

When BoE announces that it's going to sell enough LGDs to mint 54.6 million Sovereigns, the average holder of a dozen or so Sovereigns understands how the diver felt. This sensation is made dramatically worse by inept reporting by journalists who haven't got their numbers straight. Never assume conspiracy where stupidity can explain something: the press prints nonsense implications (like IMF having enough gold to cover all of its lending) simply because the journalists and the editors don't care enough to research beyond this evening's deadline.

Looked at rationally, you'd expect POG to go Up with the announcement of a CB sale (or, more accurately, for the CB's pet fiat currency to go down against gold), since POG reveals the difference between faith in gold and faith in fiat. After all, the CB is in reality damaging the faithfulness of its fiat by divesting gold. Worse for humanity as a whole, the gold that had been held for a nation's public good is now held solely for the benefit of a few private super-citizens.

Thankfully a few of us see through the misconception and welcome the bargain, but it's a testament to gullibility that the masses do not see.

--------------
Who's acquiring?
--------------

Previous discussions here have convincingly divided the CBs into acquirers (China, etc.) and divestors (UK, Korea, etc.). But if CBs only account for 25% of official above ground, and perhaps in reality only 15% of unfettered gold, who are the private super-citizen holders of the rest?

I wonder if someone is planning to institute a new form of gold coinage. Perhaps it'll be a dinar, perhaps it'll be a 10 gram round ingot issued by someone like Anglo or Newmont or WGC... someone who wants to become a CB for gold's sake (that stance would certainly be an improvement over their having to accept the slings and arrows of fiat CBs).

Be clear on this: I have no idea whether someone is contemplating creating such a new gold standard currency, and I have a sad suspicion that in fact no one is, but I can't help wishing someone would.

The debut of the Euro required lots of public groundlaying because a fiat currency gains its value solely from faith. Inevitability tends to increase faith in fiat (you may not like what's coming, but you can count on it coming), while abrupt surprises tend to damage faith in fiat (if they did this today, who knows what they'll do tomorrow).

The development of a 21st century gold standard, however, would best be served by precisely the opposite approach: lay the groundwork in secret, then drop it as a bombshell on the world before fiat powerhouses have a chance to intervene. Once random smeltings of sample coins confirm they're good because they're gold, they'd be accepted just as readily as are today's Krugerrands.

Bigger isn't better, however. One ounce is too big for everyday citizen-sized transactions, but 10 grams would be in the Sovereign ballpark. That size served Europe well for over a century of exponential economic growth. Being a basic metric weight would be even better, for precisely the same reason that the UK finally caved into decimalisation rather than four pounds two shillings and tenpence. One of the biggest obstacles to gold as a currency today is the question, "What is 4 times .2354 plus .1866?"

If someone were to try establishing a new gold standard, though, where would the founder of such a coinage get his gold from? If miners were to pursue it, their gold would come new from the ground (possibly augmented by gold borrowed long ago from CBs as if for forward sales yet not in fact turned out to the market but instead hoarded). If non-miners were to pursue it, their gold would have to come from CBs or super-citizens. The other two categories are just too illiquid to contribute. Korea tried liquidating its Gold M3 and only got a few hundred tonnes. A new world gold currency would need tens of thousands of tonnes. Gold M2, in both public and private hands, is the only source of that magnitude available.

Okay, enough dreaming for one post. Let's get back to the numbers.

--------------
Whither POG? Up or down?
--------------

As I said above, no one can reliably forecast the future. Having said that, I'll give it a try anyway .

I agree with Kaplan's Gold Mining Outlook http://www.goldminingoutlook.com/ that the nearly unanimous consensus is almost always wrong, but there's more than one way to be wrong.

Gold may rebound in the mid term rather than in the near term. Here now in June 99, I find little likelihood of Y2K lifting spot gold during the rest of 99 or early 00, since at this stage I tend to think Y2K will be an annoyance, maybe even a year-long hindrance to business as usual, but probably not a single abrupt disaster. Going back to that business of inevitability, the guardians of fiat have gone to great lengths to reassure the population. In fact, they've said Y2K so often that Joe American will numbly tolerate a dud ATM or a day's power outage here and there. I presume Europeans are getting a similar lecture, though frankly they're more concerned over the already present problem of a descending euro.

Expected result: the U.S. dollar will probably continue to grow stronger at the expense of POG, the Euro, the Yen, and pretty much everything on the planet with the exception of the price of oil. It will continue to strengthen until it begins to weaken. Glib but realistic. Since I can't time the sea change, I have to trade in anticipation of it, gently moving from U.S. dollar-denominated wealth to something else... or several somethings else.

--------------
POG and Gold Mining Stock Analysis
--------------

A Reuters article dated Tuesday 25 May 99 entitled "Gold output seen lower in Q1 1999" finally provided some useful numbers:

70% of world production = 12.23 million ounces 1Q99
divided by .7 implies
100% of world production = 17.47 million ounces 1Q99
divided by 32,151 ounces/ton implies
100% of world production = 543 metric tonnes 1Q99
times 4 implies
100% of world production = 2173 metric tonnes -- total year '99 expected --

70% of world production = average CASH cost near $199 per ounce
70% of world production = average TOTAL cost near $249 per ounce

Since this is the 70% that includes all of the significant miners, it's near certain the other 30% are the small miners that cannot benefit from economies of scale. Hence, they have higher cash costs and total costs. Now, cash cost means Variable Cost. A going concern will carry on manufacturing and selling product at prices all the way down to Variable Cost even when running at a loss on Total Costs because the Fixed Cost component can be at least partially defrayed.

--------------
Translation for non-CPAs
--------------

A restaurant owner pays both for food (variable cost) and for mortgage (fixed cost). Say a meal sells to the public for $3. Say also that the food itself costs the restaurant owner $2. He distributes the mortgage cost across each meal, say at $0.50 a meal. In other words, his cash cost is $2, his total cost is $2.50, and the current price of a meal (POM) is $3, so he makes a clear profit of $0.50.

Now say competition drives down the POM to $2.60. He's making barely 4% profit, too close for comfort.

It gets worse. Competition drives down the POM to $2.25. Now he's losing money overall, but he doesn't dare stop selling meals. After all, it costs $2 to produce the next meal, so he can get $0.25 to at least partially pay for the mortgage rather than dip into savings for all of the mortgage (or declare bankruptcy). He may even try to sell more meals: if he can find a way to sell twice as many meals, he'll break even again and cover the mortgage.

Unfortunately for him, it's not to be. The POM goes under $2, under cash cost. Then he has no alternative but to shut down. Any further meal sold would simply make things worse.

--------------
And then there's hedging
--------------

Here's a very important number I still don't know: the fraction of anticipated mine production 1999 to 2002 which has already been sold at well above $260 POG.

Let's assume 50/50 in the absence of real data. Assume 15% of current active mining capacity (half the smallfry 30%) has total costs higher than current Spot POG but has already been sold at sufficiently higher futures prices. Assume a further 35% (half the big-boy 70%) is hedged at similarly higher futures prices.

Gold mining stocks, then, fall into four categories:

A) 15% Unhedged, high-cost, in the red or breaking even at $260 POG, bleeding now
B) 35% Unhedged, low-cost, making 4% profit at $260 POG, bleeding if POG below $249
C) 15% Hedged, high-cost, sufficiently profitable until the futures contracts die
D) 35% Hedged, low-cost, making HUGE profit until the futures contracts die

Group A will very soon go bankrupt. Their contribution to annual production will most likely cease until POG recovers. As Texas wildcat wells died when the price of oil collapsed, so will this group of mines. From POG's point of view, it's a pity they only account for 15% of the total, but my sympathies to their shareholders. I truly do know how you feel.

Group B will at first close its eyes and hold still in hopes they can ride out the storm, but then will panic in coming months. With production dropping no more than 15% (and quite possibly Rising), it's highly likely POG will fall through $249. Indeed, Group B will contribute to its own demise by being the biggest overproducers. Picture a man with a shovel trying to dig himself out of a pit of quicksand. His own struggles drive him further down.

Group C will close its eyes and hold still in hopes they can ride out the storm, and they very likely will survive with that strategy.

Group D will likely go on a spending binge, acquiring weaker rivals' veins. They'll buy both the low-cost veins of precarious Group B and the high-cost veins of mortally wounded Group A. Group B veins will be kept online under new management. Group A veins will be mothballed for the time, perhaps a decade from now, when POG will rise to again justify them. Of course, Group A veins will be bought at pennyweights on the ounce because they hold so little present value.

Stockwise,
Group A will follow Royal Oak and Bre-X right out of existence
Group B will be dangerous to buy but those still alive at POG nadir will be excellent bargains
Group C will be low risk but will underperform because there's little opportunity for growth
Group D will rise in share price (they'll acquire Group B by stock swaps and Group A at asset auctions)

Meanwhile, a low POG for a significant number of months (or years) should so demoralize the industry that future planning and exploration will be abandoned unless well in progress. It may be that the nadir for POG in true terms hits around 2002-2003. Aboveground sources (Central Banks) will be largely depleted thanks to the concerted efforts of BoE, the Swiss, the LBMA, et al. Few if any newly prospected underground sources will exist. After all, why waste money exploring when you can go to a bankruptcy sale and buy a known vein with a known (but currently too expensive) cash cost?

Consolidation will ultimately increase POG. When an industry moves from many to few producers, the price rises because of oligarchy. So there's hope. But if it happens too soon, it won't be good for gold long-term.

If POG surges above $300 prior to Y2K, I plan to sell at least some of my holdings into it. Probably the Krugerrands. They're cheap but my they're ugly. A surge in POG now would mean a reprieve for high-cost miners who will keep digging, and an opportunity for low-cost miners to increase production and exploration. Both will lower long-term potential for POG by, say, 2008.

However, if POG fails to surge and instead plunges towards average cash cost of $199 or lower in 1999-2002, I'll continue buying steadily all the way, averaging down my fiat cost of investment.

If POG simply wallows at $260 until 2002, I still think there's an excellent chance of seeing POG rise from there, so I'll still be buying a little as opportunities present themselves.

--------------
My suit for an ounce
--------------

There's a recurring notion that gold maintains a constant value over the centuries, that a good man's suit equals an ounce of gold and so forth.

Well, that's Newton talking. Einstein is closer to the truth: everything is relative, and the relative relationships are constantly changing. A European gentleman's suit in 1350, made of steel, was a purchase on level with today's executive Learjet. In the 1930s, any man who wasn't a farmer was expected to wear a suit 7 days a week, and labor was cheap. Today, formal dress often means we actually put on socks, so suits are less ubiquitous and therefore command a higher price today in any reference currency, fiat or gold.

Insert the word Yen in place of gold and then say it: for century upon century, the price of a good suit in Yen has held steady. See how wrong that sounds? Gold is just another currency.

In the mid 1400s, according to a Forbes 22 May 1998 article by Peter Brimelow (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/98/0504/6109050a.htm), POG in isolated Europe was the equivalent of $2400 current dollars. After the Spaniards discovered and robbed the Americas, POG in Europe plummeted to $500 where it stayed, with brief excursions, for the next three hundred years. That sort of massive sea change was the result of the European money supply of gold being quadrupled over only a few decades.

The quiet fear I can't completely drive out of my head is that we may be in the midst of a similar sea change in POG today. New mining technology and new undersea discoveries, and new attitudes to money, may devalue gold versus the rest of the economy and leave it at a lower price for centuries to come. That's why I don't believe a word of it when I hear someone say that gold's "natural" price is $500 to $600. That may be its historical price, but century-steady prices have changed permanently before (both down and up) and they are likely to change permanently again. The worst case, of course, is the Star Trek scenario: with transporter technology, a substance as elementary as gold is nearly cost-free to replicate by the ton (on the upside, it would be kinda neat to have a ton of gold lying about even if it weren't all that valuable anymore ).

The one consolation I take in entertaining these notions is that POG can't stay for very long below the average cash cost (variable cost) of mining the next ounce from the ground. Today that's $199. And it can't stay below the average total cost (variable plus fixed) indefinitely without shutting down production. Today that's $249. You see now why I welcome a plummeting POG in the short term even if it stays down for several years (in fact, especially if it does). Assuming transporter technology is centuries away, a low POG today lays the foundation for an inflation-free gold currency supply for many years thereafter.

>From Napoleon until World War 1, POG held at about $600 modern dollars. Why? Best guess: the gold standard. Modern commerce was first standardized in the early 1800s. Prior to that, commerce was a very inefficient affair. But with British Sovereigns, French Francs, and American gold dollars in every businessman's pocket, world trade finally became normal rather than exotic.

One of the central reasons for that efficient market was that nearly all above ground gold available to Europe was in the form of coins in people's pockets, not in CB bank vaults. There was practically no Gold M2. Private banks held some gold in their vaults, of course, but little more than the proportion of paper bills held in today's bank branches. Fractional reserves were just as basic a tenet of banking under the 1800s gold standard as they are today under the fiat standard. This made the money supply many times larger than the gold coin supply, to the benefit of commerce overall.

The only difference between their fractional system and ours is that, when the public began a run on a bank, it was nearly impossible for a government to divert enough real gold to the problem bank in time to quell the panic. Today's FDIC and friends do a surprisingly good job of quelling such things. The Savings & Loan debacle a decade ago would have produced an unavoidable meltdown had the U.S. been on an 1800s European gold standard. As it was, the panic was headed off and the losses quietly distributed across the taxpayers� at least, across taxpayers who held their wealth in U.S. dollars. Owners of gold weren't taxed on their gold at all.

World War 1, by the way, is the most interesting thing in Forbes' gold chart. In 1919, POG spiked like a needle down to $196 modern dollars then rebounded within the same decade or so to $600 modern dollars. I've yet to figure out why it did that. Suggestions?

It's that single event which gives me the greatest hope for today's POG. Rather than a permanent devaluation as a repeat of 1492, we may well be watching a momentary downspike as a repeat of 1919, in which case POG is unlikely to reach the stars but is likely to make itself (and its admirers) proud again in, say, the high $300s low $400s.

My apologies in advance to those who anticipate POG of $10,000, but the only way I can see that happening is if, at the same time, the dollar and the rupiah reach 1:1 parity. Gold is Undervalued against commodities and other currencies, but not by that much. The Dollar is Overvalued against commodities and other currencies, but again not by that much. Even when the Nikkei Dow was wallowing at its post-bubble nadir, by what magnitude was the dollar/yen exchange rate different from the exchange rate in 1989? Only by twofold or thereabouts, not by a hundredfold.

On the other hand, fiat currencies have devalued by that sort of magnitude before. But in each case, the afflicted currency was issued by a government whose economic capacity had all but died: Germany after WW1, Russia after WW3, etc. The last time North America suffered such an infrastructure collapse was when the Confederate States were burned to the ground in the 1860s. Even the transfer of the imperial throne from House Windsor to House Washington after WW2 didn't cause the pound sterling to crash that dramatically against the dollar. It seems to me a transfer from House Dollar to House Euro would be no more jarring than its predecessor, though probably no less damaging over many years.

Assuming something short of apocalypse is in store, I plan to steadily acquire more gold as POG descends, and steadily divest as POG rises above my average purchase cost, but physical gold will simply be one of a dozen or so asset classes I own. I'll keep steadily investing in gold stocks of companies likely to survive the next few years, since the market will toss out the good alongside the bad with each headline about the newest Bre-X or RYO. And I expect that someday, sooner or later, we'll have a repeat of the farmer comparing the tulip to an onion and people will stampede out of Wall Street. It's happened before. It'll happen again. But as 1919 and the last two decades show, people can stampede out of gold, too. The nice thing is that gold appears to be a less risky investment today than is Proctor & Gamble stock. Even if soap has more intrinsic value than does gold .

Well, the sunlight is fading from my solar cells so I'll have to sign off.

Yours,
I.V. Holtzman

PS:

Message for Usul: Two literjons of water? What was intended with this wealth?

Message for Gandalf and Aragorn: Elenit silar lumenn omentielvo.

Message for Peter Asher: that line in Msg 5794 about gold being squeezed by a BoE constrictor... nice to see a kindred spirit in action. And to prove it...

Message for Michael: http://www.usps.gov/news/press/99/99045new.htm explains about the 5-cent email charge. Evidently it only applies to users who log onto the Internet via Schnell accounts.

TownCrier
Oil and gold news
MK, in light of your comment "Britain has more a chance of becoming the fifty first state than a member of the European Union.", I contend that distinction will go to Iraq. UK will have to settle for 52nd.
(CAUTION: Never take TownCrier seriously...)

IRAQ: CUTS JLY OIL PRICES TO US 20C, EUROPE DN 10C;ASIA DN 10C
New York--Jun 22--1218 ET--Iraq's oil company SOMO has submitted to
the UN its July crude oil price formulas. To US customers of both Basrah
Light crude and Kirkuk crude, SOMO cut by 20c its prices versus the WTI
benchmark at Cushing, Okla. To customers in Europe, Iraq decreased versus
dated Brent its price for both its Basrah Light crude and its Kirkuk grade
by 10c. SOMO reduced by 10c its Basrah Light price to customers in the Far
East.

IRAQ: 4-5 US OIL FIRMS CONTACT IRAQ ON PRODUCTION DEALS
New York--Jun 22--A group of 4-5 major US oil companies this month
contacted Iraq in hopes of securing their stake in any production-sharing
agreement approved by the UN, a source familiar with the request told
Bridge News, without naming the companies. The companies in a letter
assured Iraq of their active support for the elimination of sanctions, the
source said. The companies requested visas to visit Baghdad as early as
the first week of July.

Summers Notes Imf Gold Sales Require Congressional Approval
By Bridge News
Washington--Jun 22--Congressional approval is needed
before the US can support the sale of a portion of IMF gold
reserves to fund debt relief, US Deputy Treasury Secretary
Lawrence Summers noted in congressional testimony today.
When asked if the US Treasury would attempt in some way
to defy a congressional decision not to support IMF gold
sales, Summers noted that US law requires congressional
approval and the Treasury Department would not circumvent
the law.
Summers has been nominated to succeed Robert Rubin
as Treasury secretary.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
This is one of the more interesting alignment of tea leaves in some time.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/5y.htmlIMM currencies end mixed, yen up as BOJ stays out.

See analysts question the continuation of a strong dollar policy under DepTreasSec Summers, and final comments of a British cabinet member.
TownCrier
Russia debt surges as other emerging mkt debt dips
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990622/59.htmlRussian debt prices rose sharply amid optimism in mid-afternoon trading. Russian Soviet-era debt known as interest arrears notes (IANs) were 2-3/8 stronger at 15-3/4 bid and principal loans (PRINs) were 2-1/8 firmer at 11-1/4.

Looks like people will buy ANYTHING paper these days.
TownCrier
Got Gold?
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990622/insurance__3.htmlBroker Vanishes With Clients' $3 Billion
TownCrier
Hear ye! Hear ye! I should like to draw your attention to THIS WEEK IN GOLD
http://www.usagold.com/wgc.htmlThe Weekly Gold Market Commentary by World Gold Council staff has been provided to USAGOLD for the week June 14-18.
Click the link above to review the events that shaped the market and helped make gold available at these prices.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 22--Aug gold settled down 40c at $259.9 per ounce after hitting a
5-day low of $259.2 on trade and dealer selling amid a stronger dollar.

Aug gold continued rangebound in very thin, featureless trading.
Traders said trade, dealer and producer selling knocked the market from
highs today of $261. "For gold to stay above $260 obviously is a trauma,"
said a trader.

A trader said a weaker stock market in the morning could have
triggered light buying, "but it never materialized. The market is very
inert."
"Basically we're back in the summer months," said another trader.
"There's not much business going on. People are only entering the market
when there's something to do."

Another bearish trader said he expects gold to break through its
recent 20-year low of $258.5 in the near-term and tumble to about $250.
"When it's ready to go, it'll really fall," he said. He said there may be
some short-covering rallies, "but until we see a strong signal of
fundamental support, no one's going to buy."
Sources said the upcoming Jly 6 UK Treasury gold sale and the possible
rise in [U.S.] interest rates are adding further downward pressure to gold.
Another trader said no one is willing to take gold on with the UK
Treasury auction approaching. "There's always the possibility there will
be a push up, but it's a very nervous market," he said.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $259.9, down 40c; RANGE: $261-259.2

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
Pete
Want to know when POG is going to rise?
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/300a.htmEver wonder why you or I have been so wrong so often and so long about precious metals? Still don't believe in conspiracies after all of the illogical occurrences that are happening in this world?

If you have the time, read the above article, one of many. If you've already read it and know of it, good.

The POG is going to move when the big boys say so, no sooner, no later, and no amount of rationalization, analysis, or wringing of hands will change it.

Off to swing with the punches
Aragorn III
Mr. Holtzman, "A star shines..." indeed.
It is always a pleasure to see anyone give long thought to the place of gold in the world. I found your discussion of mines, their operating strategies and outlook to be of particular interest, and also the discussion of a man's suit through the ages. It is helpful to recall that a man in armor priced nothing in dollars, and from that we do gain a better perspective on the "price" of gold.

In that regard, and as you have touched again upon a recent topic of mine (being the "cost" of production versus gold value), I should like to revisit that element. As is ever my concern, I fear I may have been in-artful in my discussion on that account.

You state quite fairly that gold is an independent currency in global competition with others. In all fairness, however, we should not say that a currency's strength is built upon the government that issues it. Because truly, in much of the world, the government role acts to secure the framework upon which a contractual currency may exist--social stability and rule of law being tantamount. Ideally, a government would only recirculate the citizens' currency, as taxation would provide these funds for the chosen programs. For a government to actually "issue" currency, it would be in a state of deficit spending, and that cheating will undermine the currency, regardless of the government's other perceived merits. The higher the level of international exchange, the sooner the day of reckoning may arrive. It is in such an environment that we may see the dollar at parity with the rupiah as you suggested. In each case, could not one citizen be found in each country that borrowed 10 with a promise to repay 11? Of course. The cheating lies elsewhere, with similar, if not simultaneous, consequences.

Back on topic...many currencies through time and space, and gold is found for mining in many places throughout past and present. What is (or has been) the "cost" of production? What did it cost that fine gentleman in the suit of armor, who knew nothing of dollar prices, to produce an ounce of gold? I submit to you and to all others, that the cost of production for an ounce of gold is ONE OUNCE of gold PLUS labor. It cannot be produced more cheaply than that. The Earth supplies the ounce, and you supply the labor. Both parts must be satisfied. Anything less, and you have either less than an ounce or else gold still on the ground. Does gold become "priced" less on the other side of the world, or through time, because someone was able now and again to simply stoop down to retrieve a nugget? If that could be done time and time again, then we might in effect be as well served using rocks for money. But that is not the case. Gold is hard to come by. But do we value all gold at current efforts of labor required for new gold production, or does gold find its value in our ability to secure it as needed--old gold OR new?

To judge the worthiness of your answer, look to the "competition"...the dollar. What is the labor required to produce new dollars? Is it as easy as stooping for a rock? Easier! Have you ever charged to a credit card? How then does the dollar find its value? In your ability to secure other dollars (old or new) for repayment! Competition for existing gold or dollars makes for the challenge, but in contrast with gold, new dollars are only a simple charge away or a gift from a cheating government. So even if you must insist on pricing the labor portion of production "costs" for new gold in terms of dollars, do not be fooled into thinking this is helpful in determining its value as a currency. After all, it is the perception of a currency's ability to purchase gold, underneath all distractions of the forex, that provides the basis for pricing and international exchange. But as ever, I have oversimplified...

Pete, I read your recommendation, and suggest that you consider the article's self impeachment upon mention of Mick Jagger among the likes of Pol Pot. There is much more, but that is the most fitting comment I would likely make on the matter. The music of Strauss was revered as highly so many gererations ago, and the ales have steadily improved. Do not fret, and enjoy this life that remains as free as you choose it to be.

got sovereignty?
Leigh
Pete
My first thought upon reading this article was "abandon hope." I believe Mr. Coleman's paper, and I can readily imagine how the "Y2K crisis" will be relished. I had an experience a couple of years ago, when my daughter was born, that made me realize the kind of terror these people can put you through. I was labeled a "troublemaker" by one of the nurses for complaining about the filthy conditions in the maternity ward (this was a government hospital in a U.S. territory). The entire maternity staff was warned to "watch" me, that I was "fighting" with my husband, and that I was probably a potential danger to my baby. A social worked was assigned to me, and my husband's command was notified. My crime? I was loudly mouthing off to my husband in my room, behind closed doors, about the hospital conditions. I would not be the least bit surprised to find out there is a file on me (which my husband and I would be denied access to) alleging who knows what. I was stunned that all of this could happen and lived in terror for many months. This is the state of mind all of us could soon be experiencing.

Back to Mr. Coleman's paper. I find it hard to believe, though, that the leaders of EVERY government on earth are willing to ride the New World Order train. There have got to be some Asian and Middle Eastern countries, at least, that scorn the idea. Mr. Coleman was mostly writing about the Western world.

One other point: Life is short. In a few years every one of these monsters will be roasting in hell. Good will ALWAYS triumph over evil.
Aragorn III
Michael, some thoughts for your 7918
You are always a good one to get the thoughts moving! In your post you toyed with the fallout of the numbers from the UK gold auction and the effect on possible euro membership, suggesting that their woeful gold holdings would allow them a cheaper privilege at 15% voting authority compared to their fellows that came to the table much richer in gold. I would like to assure you that UK has not managed to "pull a fast one" on the other euro members, even upon joining at 15% authority in the union. They have only reduced their own flexibility into the future--yet we must assume that such a future was only made possible through these sales, as perhaps time may well reveal it to be a stopgap measure against hemorrhaging in a situation similar to LTCM?

The initial round of membership required subscriptions of reserves to the ECB that were weighted to each joining countries' membership authority. Individual holdings of foreign exchange and gold are not the point of focus. It was decided that the ECB would be established with �39.5 billion in reserves, of which 15% of the subscription values were to be delivered in gold (which was marked to the market at that time--and is revalued quarterly as you know). With these figures, 747 tonnes of gold were transferred by the 11 members to be ECB reserves. Any remaining reserves, whether paper or gold, remains under ownership and control of the national CB's (yet the ECB maintains a "power of persuasion" over future decisions on the fate of these national reserves). If these values remained in place upon UK's entry, the UK's subscription obligations would be determined by their proposed voting authority, and15% as you say would require an amount somewhat over 100 tonnes gold--whether or not the auctions take place.

The true weak sisters in the euro union are Ireland (6 tonnes) and Luxembourg (2 tonnes). National gold shall find its use in buying national flexibility if my take on Maastricht is correct. The ECB will not be buying national debt as needed, but may issue euros for gold as needed. Further, penalties for bugetary violations are to be settled using noninterest-bearing assets. got gold? Upon joining the euro team, one had best run a tight ship, or come heavy with gold to take up the slack. The UK seems to have narrowed its options! And goodness...just look what a pound "weighs" now!!

Aristotle, "Part 1" Sunday was a good start. I am confident for the timely arrival and quality of "Part 2"
Pete
Leigh, AragornIII
http://www.kitcomm.com/discussion%5Fgold/1999q2/1999%5F04/990404.200053.pcmeeeeee.htmLeigh

Sorry you had a bad experience. I hope that you and your daughter are doing well despite your travail. The above post by PCM on Kitco board may give you some insight to so called war in Balkans and reasons for it. The Serbs have resisted privatization of their natural resources(oil for one & mining the other) by western interests. Ramco plc is an example of what the Serbs considered intrusion into their sovereign affairs. The Serbs wouldn't play ball with the big boys, ergo they got their butts reamed.

The recent crisis in Asia was manufactured by a flight of capital, which in probability was engineered by the IMF and their cohorts in order to show them who the boss is. The conditions that existed in Asia were almost the same that exists in many so called civilized governments. Indonesia is a prime example of the practices by the IMF to take control of an area or sovereign nation for their monied interests. When the time is ripe they jump in and take over assets and control of region at bargain prices.

Yes, they are powerful, conscious less, cold hearted and have no belief in God. It does help to know
who the enemy is though, in order to survive.

Thank you both for the advice. We are mere pimples on their butts, so they do not pay any attention to us outside of getting vigorish from us one way or tother. And yes, they will burn in hell, talk about bad karma!! That is why I said, "Off to swing with the punches." I've got my ration of Jack Daniels, my ceegar and my woman. What more could a man want or need? Oops, MORE GOLD!








Cavan Man
RE
I have been away for a short time; too long as I have missed much written and discussed here. What an excellent roundtable of intellects!

To Pete: A friend of mine once said, " I do not like conspiracies but I must pay attention to them." I agree. However, I have a very difficult time with the gentleman author at the site you referred. I thank you though for the reference.

To "Holtzman": Welcome. Your thoughts are simply excellent! I must weigh them carefully.

Goodnight.
Peter Asher
Mr. Holtzman !!
I want to express profound appreciation for the work you have done in creating this astute, all encompassing document for the enlightenment of the Forum readers. Much confusion can be sorted out by the duplication and understanding of what you have os brilliantly said. I planned to use tonight's Northwest solstice daylight for an outdoor project but your endeavor first commanded my attention as a "must read now", and I am also compelled to respond immediately.

First of all, thank you for acknowledging the BOE pun, and I got a good philosophical chuckle out of, >>Never assume conspiracy where stupidity can explain something:<<.

Speaking of kindred spirits, and also as others have said about like minds thinking alike: (and furthermore as a firm believer in ESP). I do a lot of my Forum writing in my head while performing physical work, and this very day I was looking at the fact that CB's held all this Gold for backing currency and that this was the antithesis of the Gold standard whereby the gold would all be coinage in circulation and held by the people. I was also realizing that there would have to be fractionalization, even with gold, due to the ratio of what you call Gold M-1 & M-2, and the actual money supply. Then tonight, there it all was, laid out clearly in your post; -- you stated

>>One of the central reasons for that efficient market was that nearly all above ground gold available to Europe was in the form of coins in people's pockets, not in CB bank vaults. There was practically no Gold M2. Private banks held some gold in their vaults, of course, but little more than the proportion of paper bills held in today's bank branches. Fractional reserves were just as basic a tenet of banking under the 1800's gold standard as they are today under the fiat standard. This made the money supply many times larger than the gold coin supply, to the benefit of commerce overall.<<

Perfect!

The one loose end that still nags at me is the independent mining of new gold, and how it gets into the system. How did they handle that in the 1800's? I would think that all gold mined would have to be sold to the government on a cost plus basis. And finally, it is interesting to contemplate the concept of counterfeiting, when the coin would actually have its true value regardless of the fact of its illegal origin.

In Anne Mcaffery's "Freedom's Landing" books, a group is colonizing a planet from scratch. Some settlers want to mine gold as a commodity to trade with for goods and services, (It's a barter economy) but that activity is denied, as there would be nothing of use created, yet they would be consuming the production of others.

Thanks again for the herculean and so clearly written essay. --Peter A.
The Stranger
After Reading the Learned Holtzman
Holtzman- Congratulations. If you did nothing else, you succeeded in getting someone with a limited attention span (me) to read an unusually long post. (One wonders, in fact, when you devote this much study to a mere 1/12 of the "asset classes" comprising your portfolio, how much time you spend on the rest). But, beyond that, I think you deserve the gratitude of the Forum for your decision to share the fruit of your labors and intellect with us. You certainly have my gratitude anyway.

If I might just pick a small bone with your otherwise remarkable treatise, however. Like a good mathemetician, you have attempted to quantify all the variables for us, assigned all of the relevent probabilities. One could almost plot the points of your analysis using Cartesian co-ordinates. Yet, I find your conclusions nebulous with respect to actionable investment strategy. And no wonder. Is not the behavior of markets a function of current events and government policy, of public expectations with respect to inflation or deflation and the countless other conditions we collectively call "market psychology"? If you have trouble working such considerations into your calculus, I submit it is because such things usually defy efforts at quantification. They are, at once, too numerous and too complex.

And therein lies the rub. Musings and scholarship are wonderful, but where do we go from here? That's what I want to know.


Christine
Re: John Coleman
Just a thought. Some of what he says appears to be true. My best bet is he is also an insider, and his purpose is to confuse more than "illuminate". This is the reaction I have when I read him. I am left feeling helpless. I believe this is by design. He overwhelms with confusing array of details, and a presentation that suggest the nwo is already running everyone and everything. He presents the nwo as all powerful and utterly invincible. I believe this is his real purpose--to create a myth or disinformation about the invincibility of the nwo. However, that does not mean he is not worth reading, as some of what he reveals I believe to be true. Trying to sort the wheat from the chaff can be difficult.
MOZ
Perth Mint Makes Millions Of Gold Coins For America
The Perth Mint is making millions of gold coin blanks for the Americans,the gold is supplied by the Americans,and then shipped back to the USA for final striking.So far this year 1.2 million ozs have been shipped to America.Apparently the US Mint has been swamped by orders for the
MOZ
Perth Mint Makes Millions Of Gold Coins For America
The Perth Mint is making millions of gold coin blanks for the Americans,the gold is supplied by the Americans,and then shipped back to the USA for final striking.So far this year 1.2 million ozs have been shipped to America.Apparently the US Mint has been swamped by orders for the
MOZ
Perth Mint Makes Millions Of Gold Coins For America
The Perth Mint is making millions of gold coin blanks for the Americans,the gold is supplied by the Americans,and then shipped back to the USA for final striking.So far this year 1.2 million ozs have been shipped to America.Apparently the US Mint has been swamped by orders for the American Eagle coin and cant keep up with the demand .(Sorry about the previous two posts,pressed the wronge button)
Peter Asher
Holtzman: Some more feedback.
I would like to stress the cardinal difference between Gold (and silver) and bank note currency. All bank notes are credits, they will purchase things from others, but only so long as their debt is honored by the society that uses them for rights of exchange. Gold or silver or precious stones are in effect, credits exercised and transformed into the ownership of portable value. That value may fluctuate as does a currency, but it can not be defaulted. In post #2400 of 2/14-PM, I defined Gold as 'asset' money and currency as 'credit' money, I keep coming back to that as the basic criteria for analyzing the relationship between gold and paper.

Also, while gold may have no value in the desert, neither would currency, though I'll bet a gallon of water could be bought with a quart of Tropicana!
Peter Asher
Organized buying ??
http://www.kitco.com/gold.graph.htmlThe three-day Kitco Spot chart is showing an intriguing pattern of superimposed identical price action in late Asia-early London.
Jon
Recent Bilderberger Meeting
Has anyone seen a report on refernced meeting in Sintra Portugal?
MOZ
The Euro At Five Months
About a week ago I posted on this site some questions about FOA/Anothers theories,thanks Stranger and Gandalf for responding(Sorry Stranger for not replying,I'm still trying to digest everything).This site,The Skeptical Investor,has an intresting analysis on the euro and there is another piece on the world economic crisis just before it as you scroll the page down. http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~an388/current/html
Technician
My very own Y2K
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlLast week I loaded down a 2000 Crude contract from CSI. But when I ran my program it was nowhere to be seen! CSI's graphics clearly showed it's presence. Ah HA! Take 24 minutes to fix bug and press on. Well:

1) After a closer look I would be required to purchased new version of compiler which has facilities to handle the situation.

2) After finally locating version on net for trial useage I ran it against my source. Guess what? My source was confusing to the new compiler. Meaning I needed to upgrade my whole program to compile succesful.

3) Even if I get thing to compile my program I still have to figure out how they are facilitating the change from 1999 to 2000. A more complex endeavor than you might imagine.

I am impressed. Y2K struck home and I know enough about computers to recognize the ramifications. Well, off to sam's for some spam.
MOZ
The Euro After Five Months Pt 2
I don't know ,but after reading it again,it seems that as the euro weakens, capital from euroland will flow into America looking for a safe haven,driving the US dollar higher.This will further drive the US stockmarket higher.As long as the US dollar goes higher,relative to the other currencies of the world ,US inflation for commodities will appear low.Greenspan can simutaeously have his way with the low gold price because the boat does not appear rocked'so there is no panic.Also Greenspan does'nt want the wall street bubble to burst yet ,because the rest of the world has not recovered sufficiently,he needs more time,that is why Clinton urged the Japanese PM to do everything in his power to get Japan moving ASAP.Therefore my conclusion is; the hedge funds can continue to have their way ,driving the price of gold lower.Sure it might bounce,but until something gives,they are just implementing Greenspan's policy.Also ,I think the reason the UK is selling gold is because they want the pound to go lower like the euro( they are also helping the hedge funds at the same time) and they help Greenspan fulfill his desire to keep the POG low.These are just my humble opinions,in a field I know diddly squat about,but because of my intrest in gold I am endeavouring to understand.Please disagree,but give me your reasons for doing so.
MOZ
Finally:To FOA and Another
In your posts you said the ECB were repatriating US dollar backed funds from America back into Europe.Is'nt this because they dont want the euro to collapse at this point in time,everyone is buying time.They have to counteract the slide in the euro,but nevertheless,at this stage in the process,more capital will flow from euro's into US dollars than the other way round.
Tomcat
MOZ: Regarding the decrease Euro and Gold
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~an388/current.html#euro
MOZ, this is a great reference. I am including the above link because the one you posted did not work for me.

In just a few paragraphs this article explains: why the euro is decreasing, why the USD is increasing, why international currencies are switching to the USD, and why the US stock market is being strengthened by flows to the US. Most of all, without mentioning gold, this article gives another reason why the POG is decreasing in terms of the USD. Furthermore, it appears that the author made these predictions earlier.

What is the author's reasoning? Well, it is probably best to read it for yourself and draw your own conclusion. I hope the new link works. Thanks again, MOZ.
CoBra(too)
Placer Dome cuts expenditures
Placer Dome acts to mitigate effect of lower gold prices, the company said today and is slashing exploration expenditures, overhead and reducing exploration and development staff to a nucleus of key people. CEO, John Willson added that "PDG has a strong portfolio of mines making money at current gold prices and are focused on optimizing these mines to maximise cash flow by producing over 3moz at the lowest possible cost from existing reserves of more than 60moz's. The weakness in the gold market reflects the announced intention of the BOE, IMF and SNB to sell significant amounts of of gold over the next 3 to 5 years. I am surprised official sector owners of gold appear to be willing to sell their holdings for less than the long-term cost of production."
Well, so am I, but would it not be better to cut production in this environment and/or close and cover all forward contracts in order to maximise future value. John Willson already stated that malign forces are behind POG's decline. He should also promote production cuts and and the cessation of forward selling among the major miners and promote, anologue to OPEC, an international league of gold producers interested in their long term survival, for a change. Gold miners unite!
MOZ
Tomcat
Goodonya,Tomcat,Thanks for the link,my computer is experiencing Y2K problems 6 months early.
The Stranger
CoBra, Mein Freund
Servus. I share your sentiments, but in America, if the various mining companies were to collude on production, they would be dragged before a judge.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: Y2K Resurfaces, Investor Concerns Return
ARKET REPORT(6/23/99): Gold was up marginally this morning with little in the
way of news to take the market decidedly in one direction or the other. With the British gold
sale not that far off (July 6), some traders are saying that the metal has bottomed out and
preparing to go higher. One London dealer was quoted this morning in the London Reuters
as saying that "This could be the build up to the rally for July 6, where we think prices will
top out at around $275.00 area."

Activity is picking up again at CPM/USAGOLD with an old concern reappearing in
conversations with our clients -- Y2K. Y2K concerns seem to cycle with the public. There
are periods when investors think we will somehow muddle through (and confidence rises)
followed by periods when concerns rise again (and confidence falls). Most of this is media
driven insofar as Y2K related test failures are publicized. We get the sense that quite often
they are not.

Lately though, we have seen an increasing number of press reports telling of Y2K tests
gone awry in this country and abroad, and the effects of these failures are slowly taking
their toll in investor consciousness. Many feel that the failures that reach the press are
merely the tip of a large and ominous iceberg underneath. The concern among investors has
switched in recent months from major breakdowns the first of the year in the electrical and
phone grid, to more widespread and enduring computer related breakdowns in the third
world which could disrupt commodity delivery systems and international financial system ,
and in turn, bring about a downturn in economic activity and kick off an inflationary spiral.
In other words, people are beginning to believe that the Y2K problem could drag on for
months, even years, after the turn of the millennium.

A good example of this level of Y2K concern cropped up in the news this morning. It
seems that a group called the Business Travel Coalition has formed a "Y2K Working
Group" with the purpose of addressing the concerns of international travelers related to the
millennium bug. Chairman of the group, Kevin Mitchell is quoted in public relations release
as saying "Unfortunately, there will be an apocalyptic element of 'Guns, Grub and Gold'
coming across the airwaves that will be unsettling to travelers and their families." Unsettling
indeed....

Once again, we are beginning to see both small and larg investors bolstering their gold
holdings in response to the latest wave of unsettling Y2K news. As such, the British gold
sales on reflection might turn out to be a little more than minor blip on the radar screen that
forestalled a growing rally in the yellow metal and offered investors a gift wrapped buying
opportunity.

From yesterday's report. Thought I would leave it up for a day or two due to its importance
to all of us:

We would like to suggest that all the goldmeisters would be well served to contact their
Senators and Congressman to express their disapproval of the IMF gold sales. If you do
so, you will be joining in with some powerful forces gathering to stop this thing including
the top firms in the mining industry as well as the top gold brokerages. Need I explain the
importance of this effort to you as a gold holder? Not just with respect to your own
portfolio holdings, but to send a message to Washington that here is a large and active gold
constituency for this and other gold related issues that might come up in the future. We have
strong backing in Congress. We need to encourage our friends and let the not-so-friendly
know we are out here. We hear much discussion among gold advocates about how unfairly
gold has been treated. Here's a chance to act and act effectively. There is no guarantee we
will win, but if we do nothing, we are certain to lose.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
USAGOLD
Mitch Harris Writes His Congressman/An Example for All from a Top-Notch Newsletter Editor
The following is a note Mitch Harris published in his daily report, Reality Check Newsletter. Though the Table Round might gain from it. I'm sure Mitch does mind my posting it here in light of the importance of the message.

It appeared this morning under the title:

Lobby NOW or forever hold your depressed gold!

Thanks, Mitch and keep up the good work. You have an excellent daily report.


To ALL:

In yesterday's USAGOLD daily market update, Michael Kosares made an outstanding suggestion that now is the time for us to contact our Senators
and Congressmen to express our strong disapproval of any IMF gold sales.� Similar to the old saying that "if you don't vote, you have no right to
complain", here we have an opportunity to do our part, however large or small that may be, to contribute to the effort of stopping further lunacy in
the international gold market.

Below is a copy of the letter I wrote to my rep.� You can feel free to use it or write your own.� There is an easy way to do this over the internet, by
clicking on the "Write Your Representative" website, < www.house.gov/htbin/wrep_save > .� This will allow you to identify your representative
and contact them with your message.

Dear Steve,

I am writing to voice my strong opposition to a vote by the US representative to the IMF, IN FAVOR of the sale of up to 10 million ounces of
their gold reserves.� It is understood that the US Congress holds 17% of the 85% majority approval needed to approve this measure, effectively
giving the US veto power, so your understanding and opposition to this is critical.

The proceeds are supposed to be used in the aide to 41 heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC), but the talk, along with other factors has driven the
already depressed gold price another $31 lower.� By far, the lower price is hurting the majority of these impoverished nations more than the funds
that would be raised would possibly help them.� At least 30 of the 41 nations depend heavily on the gold mining industry as their major source of
export revenue.� They have already lost tens of thousands of industry related jobs due to the "pre-sale" drop in gold prices, and the actual sales are
estimated to cost up to another 100,000 jobs, mostly in Africa.� It doesn't appear to be the right solution to the problem of helping developing
nations to grow out of poverty, and there ARE several options that are thought by many to be more suitable.

Further, I strongly believe that with the tremendous central bank selling and gold lending, they are acting terribly irresponsibly by virtually
rendering their currencies worthless over the long run.� Gold standard or not, without hard assets to back the integrity of any nation's currency, there
is absolutely NOTHING standing between the PERCEPTION of value and worthlessness.� History guarantees that perceptions WILL indeed
change.� Plundering an out of favor asset while its price is depressed adds to my concern that nations are plundering their resrve currency at the
longer term expense of their entire nation.� The BOE for instance recently announced their intent to sell 58% of their gold reserve.� Have you
checked the pound sterling lately?� This seems to be a historical blunder of epic porportions that governments will ultimately have to answer to
their constituents for.� It will certainly diminsh the value of the paper that has been printed unchecked in recent years as global demand has been
strong.� Unfortunately, when the strength ends, there will likely be way too much currency in circulation with little to back its value.

What Congress does NOW will either help make the future a bit better or potentially a whole lot worse.� Please voice your opposition to IMF gold
sales.� They will NOT have their intended benefit and in fact may create an even greater problem down the road.� We need sobriety NOW in LONG
TERM planning with the long term foresight to avoid creating bigger problems in our future.�

Thank You,
Mitch Harris, Voter

I'm sure you all get the idea.� Let them know what you think!!!� It is their job to respect and consider our views.

Sincerely,
Mitch Harris
Mitch Harris, RIA
Editor, The Reality Check Newsletter�

USAGOLD
Error
What I meant to say is I'm sure Mitch "doesn't" mind my posting it here. Oh boy......I did it again! Why is that I not only make these typos, I do it at critical junctures? Humbling. Sorry Mitch and all...............
The Stranger
Suggestion
If you are going to use the Mitch Harris letter, may I suggest that you change the first sentence as follows: replace the upper case letters in the words "IN FAVOR OF" with lower case ones. Then replace the lower case letters in the words "my strong opposition to" and "the plan to sell up to ten million ounces of their gold reserves" with upper case ones. I believe such correspondence is generally read by office staff and interns,and that, as written, this message will mislead anyone who doesn't take the time to read the whole thing.
TownCrier
Tea leaves to start your day...what a mess they are!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990623/rd.htmlMost IMM currencies fall early, euros set new lows
"It's tough selling because no one has any ammunition left," said one trader.
CoBra(too)
Servus, Stranger, mein Freund
Of course I agree with you as I am aware of your anti trust laws, which were similarily adopted in Euroland. Though I do feel, as everyone is equal before the law some seem to be "more equal" as others.
Granted, the Fed's main obligation is to keep the exchange rate on even keel, they also are, undoubtedly, heavy players in the treasury markets, where they also have a mandate, I guess. But in the aftermath of the LTCM, alledged systemic risk close to debacle, it was the FRB NY, which actively helped to put a bailout (private sector) group together- no collusion there?-, or how about the counterparty risk management group? Is it too far fetched to conclude that a "President's Working Group", some feel PPT is for real, to protect (manipulate) against future systemic risks in other markets?
The stock market behavior of late suggests an almost risk free environment to participants, enhanced by AG's rhetorics and his clearly definable monetary measures.
Finally, the official sector barrages against gold and the astonishing timing of negative announcements, in light of a vastly favorable supply/demand environment of the physical market, lends credibility to the malign forces at work to suppress the POG (J. Willson's qoute).
How can AG ever hope for a soft landing in view of the gargantuan mess in the fiat money system, he helped to create. I, for one, wish him luck on behalf of all of us.
TownCrier
Fearing Y2K, Venezuela hires psychiatrists
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/wl/story.html?s=v/nm/19990621/wl/millennium_venezuela_1.htmlA dicey situation!!!!
In Venezuela, any official suggestion of withdrawals would have people running for the banks.

"If we say you have to have food and cash at home, we're sure that banks would go bankrupt and food could disappear."

But aren't people essentially the same everywhere?
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
LTCM denies gold manipulation
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990623/tz.htmlLONDON, June 23 (Reuters) - Giant hedge-fund Long-Term Capital Management has denied claims by a U.S.-based gold anti-trust group that it participated in manipulating the gold market and requested an immediate retraction, according to a solicitor's letter seen by Reuters.
TownCrier
Confirms my suspicion--HEADLINE: Top Y2K Problem not Bugs but Panic
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/wl/story.html?s=v/nm/19990621/wl/millennium_venezuela_1.htmlAlthough the official line in the U.S. has been that we are fine, it is the developing countries that will be in for a problem, for the first time it is admitted that the developed countries in fact will be the hardest hit because they are most dependent upon the most electronic systems.
turbohawg
Stranger, CoBra(too)
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/gregory061999.htmlRegarding your comments on using collusion in the gold industry as a solution to gold's woes, here is an interesting article by Robert Gregory off of Gold-Eagle that suggests just that. The link comes courtesy of the Fiend SuperBear, who's back from vacation.

While anti-trust laws were ostensibly created to prevent collusion and monopolies, isn't it interesting that the only real monopolies are those enforced by govt.
The Stranger
Another Letter to Congress
Sir:
This is to voice MY OPPOSITION TO THE PROPOSAL TO SELL IMF GOLD.
Congress has the power to stop this mistake before it is made. With
all the currency disruption of the past 2 years, the last thing
the world economy needs now is further dumping by official sources
of the only true money there is. Of the 41 highly indebted third-world
countries supposed to benefit from this act, 14 rely on gold exports,
to some degree, as a source of foreign reserves and domestic employment.
The weakness in gold prices as a result of this and similar announced
plans by the Bank of England and the Central Bank of Switzerland has
already wreaked enough havoc and ought to be stopped. Thank you!
Sincerely,
______________
Voter
Xavier
Hello Peter Asher!
Dear Peter,
I would think that Anne Mcaffery has made an error.
"In Anne Mcaffery's "Freedom's Landing" books, a group is colonizing a planet from scratch. Some settlers want to mine gold as a commodity to trade with for goods and services, (It's a barter economy) but that activity is denied, as there would be nothing of use created, yet they would be consuming the production of others."
Surely TIME is of use?
Gandalf the White
The Wiz is shaking his head and asking "What's Happening ?"
Strange things are confusing the already confused Wiz. Did anyone notice the action of the XAU at (or actually AFTER the close) yesterday ? --- The floor traders and big boys bought everything that had a sellstop on the books !! -- That action drove the closing of the XAU to the low for the day. --- Now, today we see what? -- PEOPLE talking UP the POG ? --- Then the Long Bond again TANKS and the trading disappears at just before 10:30 NY time at interest rate of 6.116
TownCrier
Three out of four bank customers say bank not telling them about Y2K
http://www.cutimes.com/y2k/1999/yr062399-3.html42% believe ATMs will fail.
38% believe checks will bounce.

Oh yeah...I feel calm about no banking disruptions.
Gandalf the White
The Wiz is shaking his head and asking "What's Happening ?"
Strange things are confusing the already confused Wiz. Did anyone notice the action of the XAU at (or actually AFTER the close) yesterday ? --- The floor traders and big boys bought everything that had a sellstop on the books !! -- That action drove the closing of the XAU to the low for the day. --- Now, today we see what? -- PEOPLE talking UP the POG ? --- Then this morning, the Long Bond again TANKS and the trading disappears at just before 10:30 NY time at interest rate of 6.11+ !!!!! What is happening ?
<;-)
OverHerd
AEL
Sorry it took so long but thanks for the input on that web site (y2knewswire). It seems that finding prudent and unbiased information on the Y2K situation is almost as difficult as fixing the problem.
My opinion now is that no company, individual, or entity can be, for lack of a better term, "functionally compliant". It seems that everyone will be effected to some degree by Y2K. I imagine that all I can do is plan and inform myself the best I can.
joe
TownCrier
Vietnam Airlines Cancel Y2K Flights
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ap/technology/story.html?s=v/ap/19990622/tc/mil_vietnam_flights_1.htmlPlanes will be grounded as midnight passes, and pilots are being trained to fly without technical assistance.
Huh?! An engine is pretty technical...are they gonna flap their arms??
TownCrier
This is perhaps today's single best Y2K article
http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/99/Jun/22/business/YTWOK22.htmRead it if you don't have time for the others. It is a pretty good summary without much fluff.
The Stranger
turbohawg
Thanks, Turb. I read your reference and was particularly intrigued by the Zorro option. Perhaps if we Knights of the Round Table were to pool our assets....

Have you got a motorcycle or do I misconstrue your nom-de-internet?

By the way, thanks for not rubbing the last CPI report in my face. I had it coming and fully expected to hear from you.
TownCrier
Have a quick look at the daily charts
http://www.usatoday.com/money/charts.htm#NYSE_OILEverything is down except gold and oil. (Remember, a rising Bond yield means that its price is falling)
TownCrier
UK's Monetary Policy Committee voted 8-1 for rate cut
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_375000/375905.stmPuzzled by deflation, aggressive attempts to reach target inflation levels.

Gotta love a managed economy!
Peter Asher
Xavier!
I don't understand the context and therefore the meaning of "Surely TIME is of use?"in relation to the fictional situation in the novel. The group of colonists are each contributing to their economy by producing basic necessities of life. They are still at the stage of barter and 'duty roster': and do not need 'money' to operate their system.

I brought up the story for an analogy on gold mining in a Gold Standard environment. In the colony situation, the gold miner would be 'creating' money, or a jewelry commodity that has no use in a 'planed' survival economy. It's like the "gold for water" in the dessert; if people are not using money, then why should they turn over product for it?

I like to use this imagined environment as a way to put gold and money in a clear perspective. Gold's role as money is to hold one's unspent credit in the form of an asset that transcends the agreements of the society to deliver exchange. Paper money is the agreement that the work you completed on Friday will entitle you to the product of someone else's work on Monday morning.
The Stranger
CoBra(too)
Here, here! Still, I wouldn't expect AG to attempt ANY kind of genuine landing until recoveries in Latin America, Africa, Japan and commodities are well underway. The current talk smacks to me more of an effort to merely discourage speculative excess in the American financial markets.
nugget101
Money and the colonists
Peter.
The colonists need money to facilitate the barter. Money is an abstraction of the commodity ie. I don't need to transport 60 bushels of corn to you to receive 2 bushels of apples. We decide on a fair value for the goods. This is determined by the value to produce them (your labor (time) and the seed) and the scarcity of the product. In this respect gold is a commodity because it follows those rules also. If beach peebles were money then money has no value because anyone could create money. (This is why governments dislike conterfeiting so much, it waters down the money supply. Though they do it themselves).

We can, and did, use different types of objects as money but gold has turned out to be the best. Gold is rare enough that it can't be easily made, malleable, doesn't rust or change and can be used in many weights or sizes. This makes it efficient as an abstract respresentation of value (labor/time).

In the colony situation they turn over product because they can get others to accept this money (gold) because it is an efficient storehouse of value. Also, not everyone would be a farmer in your colony. Some might be police. How do they get value for their time? Or what about teachers or surveyors or ?.

Money isn't created. (Except with fiat). It is a representation. It doesn't hold credit, it holds value. Time/labor. (Your use of the word "credit" , I presume, is supposed to mean an unspent value). However, their is no unspent value because you have had an equal trade at the time of purchase. You can accumulate it but it will only represent stored value (which can change). You trade it for someone elses time/labor. There is no credit, unlike fiat which is simply made up and represents a DEBT against the "good faith" of the originator. You are entitled to NOTHING! If someone else doesn't want to trade their time for yours, you can't force them. Paper can also be used but unless backed by something of value will eventually be debased because it doesn't have intrinsic value (the value acheived by time and labor).

In the desert, if I came across a bedouin and he had a quart of water, I can guarantee that he would give me the water for my gold if it wasn't as valuable to him as the value of the gold. He could then take the gold and buy new wives or camels. It is far easier for him to carry an oz of gold than 100 gallons of water.

Well, I hope this disjointed rambling gave you some thought.

D.
TownCrier
EU welcomes demise of U.S. steel quota bill
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990623/08.htmlIt would seem the American consumers dodge a bullet.
TownCrier
* * MARKET FLASH * *
Washington--Jun 23--COMEX Aug gold futures ended up $1.9 at $261.8 per
ounce on a flurry of late day fund and dealer buying as well as the
expectation that Congressional opposition will put IMF gold sales in
doubt.

***More gold news to follow***

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
Rising Oil News
NYMEX OIL: BOUNCES IN FOLLOWTHROUGH TO API, DOE DATA
New York--Jun 23--1030 ET--NYMEX energy futures bounced following
weekly inventory data showing unexpected drops in US crude and distillate
stockpiles last week. Aug crude jumped 44 cents to hit an intraday high of
$18.19 before trimming some gains. At 1030 ET, NYMEX Aug crude was up 41c
at $18.16. Jly heating oil was up 118 points at 44.80c, while Jly gasoline
was up 85 points at 52.00c.

VENEZUELA PRESS: OIL WORKERS TO RECEIVE WAGE INCREASE IN JULY
Caracas--Jun 23--0908 ET--Venezuela's state oil company PDVSA will
begin to pay oil workers a 3%-6% wage increase based on merit by the
middle of July, said Carlos Ortega, the president of the country's main
oil labor union Fedepetrol, reported El Universal newspaper.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
HEADLINE: Treasurys Slide
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19990623/news/current/bonds.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhooThis is a thorough article. You have GOT to check out the chart! Ugly picture for dollar-holders.
TownCrier
Russia turns a corner in economic recovery?
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990623/0c.htmlRussian Duma lower house of parliament passed a bill permitting the central bank to buy gold directly from producers to replenish the country's gold and currency reserves.
Peter Asher
All ebb tides flow back in!
Aug gold has tacked on another $.70 as of 2:50 EDT, now @ $261.5
Peter Asher
Oops
That's $262.5
Peter Asher
The plot thickens!!
As in becoming solid enough to be visible

The Russians are leading the way with the optimum strategy to build CB assets.

>>Gold producers would repay the loans with supplies of the metal at the central bank official price set on the day the credit was extended, minus banking commission of up to two percent.<<

Give the miners no interest loans to finance delivery of gold at the lowest price in 20 years. That's buying at the bottom without running up the price. Or more accurately, buying at the bottom without being caught up in an upward price surge. It will be interesting to see how many takers they can lock in before the ramification of this action becomes obvious and the miners hold back on making a commitment.

This is turning into an interesting week! --- Oh yes, it is June right?
koan
Kaplan site
My URL for Steve Kaplan's site is not working. Could someone porvide me with that address. I may have had his old URL and not updated? Thanks.
Aristotle
Some words to ponder as I approach Part 2...
"We must beware of committing the fatally common fallacy of assuming that all we see is all there is to see."
--�Warren�Leadbeater

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use."
--�Galileo�Galilei

"It raineth on the just and on the unjust, likewise shineth the sun."
--�Anonymous

"It did not rain when Noah built his Ark."
--�Loesje

"Being right too soon is socially unacceptable."
--�Robert�A.�Heinlein

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--�Eleanor�Roosevelt

"This life is a test. It is only a test. Had this been an actual life, you would have received further instructions as to what to do and where to go."
--�Anonymous

"You can waste a whole lifetime trying to be
what you think is expected of you
but you'll never be free"
--�Chris�Rea

And the goldheart creed when facing the simple and weary world...
"The function of genius is not to give new answers, but to pose new questions --which time and mediocrity can solve."
--�Hugh�Trevor-Roper
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold up $1.9 on dealer buying
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 23--COMEX Aug gold futures settled up $1.9 at $261.8
per ounce on a flurry of late-day fund- and dealer-buying as well as the
expectation that Congressional opposition will put IMF gold sales in
doubt.

Aug gold early in the session appeared to continue in its recent
trading range of $258-260 but broke out of that late in the session,
triggering buy stops along the way. Sources said the move up was made on
fund and dealer buying as well as news reported by Bridge News that IMF
gold sales may be met with Congressional opposition.
The proposal from the Group of 7 industrialized nations to provide
debt relief to poor countries by selling IMF gold reserves will face stiff
opposition from the US Congress, which could doom its chances for being
implemented, according to congressional aides. Under US law, Congress must
approve the proposal to sell 10 million ounces of the IMF's gold reserves
before it can take effect.

Traders added that the Jly 6 UK Treasury gold auction also should
cause minimal impact to prices. "It will have more of a psychological
impact, which could push prices lower for that day," said a trader. "It
will be vulnerable but will probably easily move up."
Traders had said that despite this late-day uptick, they expect gold
to slip back to its recent $258-260 trading range. "I really think it's
going to run out of steam," said a trader, noting "that each time it hits
$258, it erodes support and each time it moves to $260, it chips away at
resistance."
"Gold is still looking for a feature," said a trader. "All there is
now is a situation where when people have something to do, they do it and
get out. It's very difficult to position yourself."

Longer-term, while some still target $260 as a base on gold, others
said they are expecting more downward pressure to $240. "I think gold is
vulnerable to fresh short selling," said a trader, but adding that it
won't stay down for long. "It should then come back to the $260 level."

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $261.8, up $1.9; RANGE: $262-259.3

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
turbohawg
monetary policy
From the link provided by MOZ (thanks MOZ), the Skeptical Investor remarks:

> No, I think that the strategy now is to hold it all together long enough for the rest of the global economy to stabilise and become strong enough to withstand the shock, without triggering a global depression. Such a strategy means that nothing will be done that may risk bursting the bubble until the members of the FOMC are confident that economic recovery elsewhere has progressed far enough.<

It certainly does appear as though that could be the Fed's strategy. But I don't actually recall Greenspan or any of his Greenspanions saying that was their intention. Does anyone else ?? I do recall Greenspan, when discussing dollarization of one or more Latin/South American countries, saying that monetary policy would be set based on the best interests of the US. In the near term, does that really mean in the best interests of Klinton ??

By continually expanding credit, propping up our stock market, and keeping the dollar relatively strong, it's easier to make the case that the Fed has acted more favorably toward other countries than ours long term. One can also make the case that it acted in the best interests of Klinton. Recall that money growth took off in early '95, right after Klinton lost Congress. This growth no doubt masked a slowing economy, helping Klinton win re-election in '96 and keeping his ass from being subsequently yanked out due to corruption.

While other countries are stabilizing as a result of the continued money expansion that has kept American consumers buying, this Fed policy has led to record trade deficits, hurting domestic manufacturers, and leading not only to layoffs in the manufacturing sector but forcing more and more companies to set up shop outside our borders to compete, which will make our post-bubble recovery more difficult. The wealth effect of inflated stock and real estate assets has resulted in a negative savings rate, depleting tomorrow's seed corn and adding another obstacle to post-bubble recovery. Many have quit their jobs to open their own businesses, not recognizing the artificial nature of consumer demand, and to daytrade. In short, setting aside the (major) effect of immediate wealth destruction of a burst bubble, the more that the Fed propagated this bubble the more it's driven this country's future into the ground.

And in the end, those countries that stabilized from this policy will see much of their rebound disappear when the US consumer market tanks. So then, what ultimately will be accomplished ?? Well, Klinton got to carry on another day ... and that's what's most important, right ??
Gandalf the White
koan's question on Kaplan
www.goldminingoutlook.com
You have to like this guy!
<;-)
turbohawg
nom de internet
Stranger, if you're imagining a smelly, unshaven, pot-bellied, hairy-backed biker dude with a side interest in investing and Austrian economics, pecking away at his computer when not out terrorizing the community, such is not the case. You're not the first ... Peter and Michael had similar notions, I believe, early on. In reality, the pseudonym was borne in haste ... expected to be temporary ... during (Razorback) college football season ... between gulps of mind altering suds.

On those CPI numbers, you didn't REALLY think I'd rub it in ... now did you ?? I recall you commenting once on your lack of confidence in any numbers put out by this administration ... I feel the same way. Besides, in the unlikely event that those numbers are indeed accurate, they don't in any way prove my fundamental contention that the money supply will at some point begin a contraction that the Fed can't stop ... that remains to be seen. And of course, it would be myopic of me to rile a person who I might one day drink a beer with !!!

Speaking of those money supply numbers, they are all now in contraction ... a few thoughts on that later.
CoBra(too)
Landing pads - unpadded
Just got back from a dinner farewell party of a friend diplomat from Turkey. He is going to be posted in Ghana, WA(frica), the former British Guinea - that's, IMHO, where the name for the (former) hard currency (and not the pig) derived.
As I understand, Ghana is # 9 gold producer globally, still a young democracy (Republic), seeing its chances as a gold and resource mining country as a means to enhance their entry to the modern world, which they would never be able to achieve as a cocoa grower.(BTW Ghaneans are great people - just look at Kofi Annan(UN)speaking beautiful oxfordian- I'm jealous!).
Anyway, I'm happy to hear that Ghana's politicians are standing up and debating the wisdom of IMF gold sales, while qualifiing for HIPC debt relief, they would rather see a fair and equitable POG. (What a shame that their former colonial masters cost 'em 30% of potential revenue in no time, not talking about lost opportunities)!
@Stranger- I don't feel AG has the leeway to wait for recoveries of economies and resource markets the global fiat dollarization has dumped on behalf of keeping their own inadequacies (disequilibrium) at bay. Even, if it seems that, par example Japan is playing along the US Fed's rule, it does smack like "green"mail and won't last. In harsh reality, which I only state as example of possible global belief:
About 5% of global population can't forever live on the credit earned by a former generation ( I'm still very much pro American - please wake up, friends)on ever expanding credit.

@Turbohawg - Thanks for Bankers Bluff, which I've missed before -it sure illustrates the potential motives of AG's war on gold - ... go GOPEC

OK - being right too soon is socially unacceptable- as I'M F'inally stressing - only lend money to countries that possibly can never pay back!
Yours truly taxpayer...
THX-1138
U.N.'s Take on Y2K
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19990623_xex_the_uns_take.shtmlThis link may have been posted before, but I still like some of the quotes in this article.

"If people panic, you see, they might take their money out of the banks, and then the banks would collapse -- not because there's anything wrong with the banks, you understand, but because of lack of trust in leaders. And if people panic, they'll start stocking up on toilet paper and beans and the grocery store shelves will be empty -- not that there are any problems with the food supply chain, of course."

Of course I have no trust in my leaders. How can you trust leaders who lie to your face and are dead set on stealing all our freedoms!

THX-1138
koan
Thank you Gandalf the White
I did have Kaplan's old URL - yes I like Kaplan. He is my main read each day. Silver stocks fell another 300,000 oz which makes quite a string of depletions in silve comex stocks. If the comex stocks drop from here we should see a lot of speculation activity.
By the way, I am an old San francisco hippi (only in my mind not, in my dress) and when I was in college I read the Lord Of The Rings Trilogy in 1967 (when it first came out) cover to cover, stoned, and listening to Country Joe and the Fishes second Album - one of my peak experiences in life. It is still my favorite book. I havn't told that story in 30 years. Thanks again for the help.
Gandalf the White
Steve --- WAKE UP and watch the GC9Q
last at $262.80 --- UP another whole $1 !!!!
I told you strange thing were happening today.
<;-)
Peter Asher
Turbo
As I recall, I suggested an image similar to Malcolm Forbes, not a Hell's Angel Goldbug. However I see you certainly haven't forgotten we assumed you were a Biker.I would be interested to see everyone here tell us the hidden meaning of their 'Net handle'.

Re >>depleting tomorrow's seed corn<< That is the crux of it all. A bubble by definition, is a phenomena that ends by bursting. I think I once said, you can only deflate a balloon.
Peter Asher
Koan
Check out (2/17/99; 22:31:30MDT - Msg ID:2502)
On Dropping Out, Ayn Rand and Middle Earth.
canamami
June 23 Column on Britain and the Euro from the Globe and Mail
Britain's euro debate goes 'daft'

Peter Cook

Wednesday, June 23, 1999


Brussels -- When John Major was in charge, it was said that Britain's decision to opt out of the European single currency, the euro, had put the issue beyond politics. His party went on to tear itself apart over Europe. With smooth, supercontrolled Tony Blair running things, a decision on the euro has been put off until a referendum is held in 2002 -- or perhaps 2003, or even 2004. Until then, Mr. Blair will offer no more than theoretical support to the idea of joining 11 or more countries in having the euro as an actual currency.

So who can get excited about the imminence of the great British debate on the pound versus the euro?

The answer, it seems, is just about everyone. Today, two lobby groups, New Europe and Business for Sterling, will hold a big rally in central London at which they will claim that Britain will be more successful economically, and have more influence in Europe and the world, if it stays out. Next month, the Britain in Europe movement, backed by the big multinational corporations, will launch a well-funded campaign for an early decision in favour of the euro.

On the political front, things are just as fluid. Ten days ago, Mr. Blair's Labour party lost badly to the Conservatives in European parliamentary elections that had been turned by Tory leader William Hague into a vote on whether Britain should be in Europe at all. At the Cologne G8 summit, Mr. Blair acknowledged that defeat and what it had done to the pro-Europe cause when he called the idea of Britain joining the euro any time soon "daft." The Cologne meeting had been on a subject that has lately been Mr. Blair's favourite above all else: the war in Kosovo. The day after it, the British press ignored Kosovo and dwelt almost exclusively on his "daft euro" remark.

If we take a dictionary definition of the word "daft," meaning foolish or simple, then it is probably an apt description of Britain's debate.

For while he has moved closer to Europe on other matters such as social policy and defence, Mr. Blair has tried, like Mr. Major before him, to put so much distance between himself and the euro that it is not clear where he stands, or whether the government is pro or con. Specifically, he and Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown have laid down that economic conditions, and the rate at which the pound would join, must be right.

This is reasonable to an extent. But not when it comes to mean, as Mr. Blair now suggests, that the rest of Europe must go British, embracing flexible labour markets, tighter public spending, lower taxes, less regulation, more privatization, and unless they do, Britain may not -- perhaps will not -- play ball. Quite why the rest of Europe should abandon policies that have given them higher living standards, higher productivity and higher social benefits than the British is not explained.

Supposing that Mr. Blair is pro-euro, then his espousal of the John Bull, Britain-is-best argument is unfortunate to say the least. For not only is it misleading, but it plays into the hands of a bunch of intensely europhobic commentators in the media. Moreover, it leads nowhere. If there is one thing that is certain, it is that France's ruling Socialists are not going to renounce their chosen path, give up their habit of criticizing heartless Anglo-Saxon capitalism and do a complete change of political costume to suit London.

Looked at dispassionately, one can see merits and demerits in the British model and, say, the German social-market model.

Low wages and social costs, free markets and less government interference attract investment and create jobs; hence Britain's low unemployment. By contrast, the German model shackles the entrepreneur but offers good education and training, a generous welfare state and narrow wage differentials, all of which produce social harmony. This leads to high incomes and high income support for those with jobs and, alongside it, persistently high unemployment.

Try to measure the success of each, and it would seem the German model has an edge. Not only has Germany outgrown Britain since 1989, it is the 11th richest nation in the world while Britain is 17th (in fact, no less than seven out of 11 euro-using countries are wealthier than the British).

It is a sign of a "daft" debate that none of this appears in the British press or seems to register with the British public. The euro is presently weak, the pound is presently strong. Ergo, we would suffer if we had their currency. Britain's economy, thanks to Margaret Thatcher, is reformed. The rest of Europe, and here no minor distinctions are made, is unreformed. We have jobs, they don't. We pull in foreign investment, they don't. That is how the argument goes. Never mind that the strong pound has pushed Britain close to recession. Never mind that euro-users such as Austria and the Netherlands have lower unemployment than Britain.

For a mature country being asked to make a mature decision, it is all very odd. Reminiscent, perhaps, of North Americans debating free trade.

Peter Cook can be reached by E-mail at pcook@globeandmail.ca

Aristotle
Part 2--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market
...Continued from Aristotle (6/20/99; 15:31:21MDT - Msg ID:7839)

Do you see the world as it is? Or do you see the world as you are? A tough obstacle, to be sure, as our experiences weigh heavily on our perceptions, and many people have no practical earthly experience with real money. There is hope..."the Truth is out there!" as a popular show is quick to proclaim. Albert Einstein puts an interesting slant on this theme: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

So with a ready admission our minds are frail and feeble, let's tackle something so ponderous it must hopelessly remain an abstraction to us mere mortals. I refer to the U.S. national debt, expessed in dollars, that stands at 5.6 trillion. Wow! What does that really mean? To put it in some perspective, let's revisit the 1970's, and try to get our arms (and feeble minds) around some much smaller numbers, and yet numbers that themselves are large enough to be abstractions. Let's examine the incredible and overwhelming wealth and economics of oil.

Imagine having claim to a sandy and barren land that reaches 120 degrees Fahrenheit in Summer, making your living through the ages on goats, dates and Pilgrims to Mecca. Not a posh existence when compared to America in the Roaring 1920's, but the passage of time reveals the fortunate few that were in the right place at the right time. When the Standard Oil Company of California was granted an exploration concession for Saudi Arabia in 1928, the 35,000 gold soveriegns paid by Socal were reportedly counted by Sheikh Abdullah Sulaiman himself. Wispy shades of things to come! This can be thought of similarly to how you might view a collection of skinny stock investors who found themselves heavily invested in penny internet stocks when the technology market exploded in the 1990, making them all millionaires. Except this: Oil is much, much bigger! Let's examine what it means to be in the right place at the right time.

Some of the oil history buffs may enjoy this review. Having purchased this Saudi Arabian concession, in subsequent drilling Socal's Damman Number 7 struck oil in 1937 (I believe ol' Number Seven is still flowing.) Socal partnered with Exxon, Mobil, and Texaco to form the Arabian-American Oil Company. Over a thirty year period, Aramco discovered petroleum reserves in Saudi Arabia in excess of 180 billion barrels...a quarter of the known reserves of the planet at that time. And as the world aged and changed, the amount of oil consumed daily in world trade climbed dramatically, from 3.7 million barrels per day in 1950, to 9.0 mbpd in 1960, to 25.6 mbpd in 1970, to 34.2 million barrels per day in 1973 during the first Oil Crisis.

Consider this for better perspective: the average yield per well at the end of the 70's in the United States was 17 barrels per day per well, in Venezuela (one of the co-founders of OPEC) it was 186 barrels per day per well, and in Saudi Arabia (the other OPEC co-founder) it was 12,405 barrels each day per well. Wow! Just imagine if the internet companies today issued new, additional shares each day at this same rate as oil consumption...the stock price would plummet! But unlike internet stocks, because this oil is consumed, it must be replaced (and paid for!!) every single day.

I will talk about pricing and balance of trade after I return from an errand...stay tuned for the biggest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen. Things get pretty exciting when the key currency gets debased in 1971...Gresham's Law rules the land, and you know what THAT means.

Gold. Still not too late to get you some--but you might consider putting MK on your speed dial. ---Aristotle
canamami
An older (June 16) column from the Globe and Mail, on the euro's value
Does money matter so much?

PETER COOK

Wednesday, June 16, 1999


Brussels -- Canadians who have never decided whether they prefer their dollar cheap or not so cheap should have some sympathy for Europeans caught in the same bind.

When called on to vote for a European parliament in the past few days, the minority of people in Europe who bothered to go to a polling station were said to be voting not for their Euro-parliament but for (or against) the euro, a currency.

Controversy has dogged the euro in its five months of existence because it should have been strong but has turned out weak.

That state of affairs led to Germans voting against Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and his Social Democrats whose confusions and vacillations have done much to undermine the currency. The Germans like their beer pure and their currency uncompromisingly robust.

The British when they voted preferred the Conservatives, whose official policy is not to say never to the euro but to postpone joining it indefinitely, over Prime Minister Tony Blair and his Labour Party who are friendlier and insist a decision must be taken (although when is not clear). Why? Because the euro is weak, the pound strong. We have the better currency, they contend, and not only because the Queen's image is upon it.

Other folks, more pragmatic and easy going, such as the French and Italians, stuck to a more normal pattern of voting; for them, a weak currency reminds them of the not-so-bad times when the franc and the lira could bounce around, to the private advantage of their economies. They don't mind things as they are.

The oddity in all this is that, where people do care about currencies, the position they seem to take is so often contrary to their own best interest. For Germany and Italy, a strong currency now would be a disaster; both economies are on the ropes and need cheap money and low interest rates to lift them off. German voters, then, should be denied what they want -- and they should be applauding the disarray in the Schroeder coalition that is helping them not get it.

The opposite is the case in Britain. The pound bolstered by high interest rates is a burden that Britain's bosses and workers, by no means Europe's productivity champions, find hard to bear. As the Financial Times of London said in an editorial on Saturday: "Had Britain joined the euro-zone in January, the weakness of the euro would on balance have helped the economy." So what on earth are the Brits doing boasting of the steroid superiority of the pound?

It is, of course, an iron law of life, not of economics, that people want what they do not have. Nonetheless, to turn national money, or a shared currency, into a kind of sports contest in which one country triumphs while the other tastes the bitter ashes of defeat defies common sense. At times, a weak currency is as appropriate as, at other times, a strong one is. Moreover, since current times are not inflationary and there is therefore little risk of a weak-currency country suffering a huge rise in import costs, the case for temporarily weak money has begun to look even better.

In hindsight, it can be said that Canada and Australia did the right thing when they reacted to last summer's attack on commodity-based economies and currencies by letting their dollars go. Interest rates did not have to be raised, and both currencies have rebounded since.

The other point to make is that to have a strong, or weak, currency is less important than to have a stable one. For the British, that would be the advantage of the euro. For the Canadians, that would be the advantage of joining a North American currency union or simply using the U.S. dollar.

Meanwhile, the perceived disadvantage of having fluctuating, national currencies may not be so great as it is portrayed.

Historically, economists have measured relative gross domestic product by converting all currencies into the U.S. dollar; that makes sombre reading when, as is often the case with Canada, its money falls against the U.S. dollar. In fact, living standards are not declining nearly so abruptly when looked at in terms of Canadians' ability to purchase goods and services at home. The currency is lower. So are many costs denominated in that currency.

This week, the Paris-based Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has produced GDP numbers on the leading economies based on local costs, or purchasing power parity (PPP), and they show Canada doing surprisingly well. In U.S. dollar terms, Canadian GDP per capita is no higher than 18th in the world. In PPP terms, it climbs to seventh, comfortably ahead of countries like Germany, France and Sweden. That suggests that the dollar's descent, and all the wailing and worrying that has gone with it, has not put much of a dent in Canada's actual prosperity -- except, of course, when compared with the United States, which is in second place, behind only Luxembourg. However, that may not satisfy those Canadians who compare themselves with Americans and with no one else.

Newsnugget
BOJ- Buying EUROs for Reserves
Bridge News reported today that BOJ intervened in the euro/yen market last Friday to stem the increasing yen strength (against the Euro), which threatened to make Japanese exports expensive for European customers and undermine Japan's immenent recovery. The BOJ was also trying to stop selling of EUROs by Japanese investors who were unwinding positions because the euro's decline had triggered steep losses in their euro-denominated investments.
Bridge reported that Goldman Sachs said the BOJ intervention was also a way for the BOJ to diversify its $220 billion reserves into EUROs because the BOJ reserves are mostly in dollars.
THX-1138
I guess there are Morons out there
Today I went to my coin dealer to pick up three Krugerands I had bought. The dealer asked me if I wanted to buy anymore coins. I hadn't been paid yet, so I told him no. Besides I have to save some money for a vacation I am taking. As I was leaving he told me someone had sold him 30 gold coins today and he had them in the back if i wanted to buy any. I guess there are morons out there who have no idea this FORUM exists or what is taking place in the stock market. Oh well, there loss.

I got Gold!
AllanC
Paul Erdman Article CBS Market watch
I just responded to this "economist's" article on CBS market watch. I thought some others mike like to share in it.

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Gold.

One problem with discussing gold is that it seems to bring out the worst in people. Either they hate it - regard it as a "sterile" investment that does nothing to benefit society, or they see gold as a panacea which will solve all of mankind's problems provided we return to a "gold standard."


It is left unsaid that a return to gold might have also solved a lot of the gold-bug's personal problems if, during the past decade, a new dollar link with gold had been established at, say, $500 an ounce, or even $300.

All one can say to them today is: Dream on. But it will never happen.

Last Friday at the gold fixing in London the price was set at $258.95 an ounce, down 10 percent in a matter of five weeks and at its lowest level since 1979.. Why? Because gold is being demonetized and the process is irreversible. The stark facts bear this out.

The Bank of England is going to sell 415 tons of gold, or more than half of its gold reserves. This means that England, which invented the gold standard in the 19th century, is now getting out of the gold business.

Switzerland, traditionally a nation of gold bugs, is doing the same. In April the Swiss voted to sever the official link between gold and the Swiss franc. The Swiss National Bank intends to dump 500 of its 1,300 tons of gold to finance its "Solidarity Fund.", with the rest to follow later. According to the President of Switzerland's central bank: "Gold is no longer of any monetary importance."

The International Monetary Fund plans to sell between five and ten million ounces of gold to relieve the debt burdens of the world's poorest nations. In this it has the full support of France, Germany and Japan - the remaining key holders of gold as part of their monetary reserves.

So now gold is just another commodity. As is silver. Its price dropped below $5 an ounce last week, no doubt affected by what was happening to gold prices. From now on, the prices of these metals which used to be set by edicts of Britain's Chancellor of the Exchequer or the President of the United States will be set by traders in the pits of the futures markets in Chicago or New York.

How the mighty metals have fallen.

Economist and author Paul E. Erdman is a columnist for CBS MarketWatch.


My response:

Dear Mr Erdman:

Thought your gold article was so biased, obviously you are socialist leaning, and a member of the wall street crowd who say gold is a barbarous relic. You don't even give the appearance of being fair.

Let me try to educate you.

Gold has been in a supply deficit all these years and the demand has been met through producer and speculator shorting through CB leasing. The CB's have already "sold" a lot more of their gold than the public knows. That is a fact! If this form of producer hedging had not occured gold would be much higher today since the little people all over the world are buying it like crazy. The people in India and China think gold jewellry is a better investment than Microsoft (market cap about 1/2 Trillion which could buy 2 times the gold in all the Central Banks). So tell them about your mighty stock market and they will laugh, they know the emperor has no clothes (or gold!). They also think it is a better form of money and is as widely respected as the US dollar.(for now)

Gold has an intrinsic value, it cost $200 to $250 to get out of the ground. Why should we dig it out of the ground and bury it in vaults again? Simple, because by then it's 99% pure, and can be used as hard money by the bank. Sold for jewelry or transfered to another banks vaults to pay off the first bank's debts. It is not the US government's promise to pay, it is an end to itself. It's beautiful to look at and is extremely rare. It has served man for thousands of years and will continue to do so.

Ask yourself, if gold is just a commodity, why did FDR have to confiscate all of it after the crash of 29? It was starting to go up nicely on it's own. What value did the government see in this "worthless relic" to do this. Why did it forbid it's citizens from owning it? Ask yourself why gold went up thirtyfold in the seventies. These events didn't happen so long ago. You, like some short sighted people, often think man's history started sometime in the last 20 years.

Finally, I will try to use simple economics and common sense to convince you that gold will soon see the light of day. First- nobody in finance circles likes it now, (journalists writing "Gold is dead" articles like yourself) a contrary signal. Second- The US foreign owned debt is approaching $1.5 Trillion ($20,000 for every family in the US), the annual trade deficit is ballooning to $250 Billion. While the US GDP seems large enough to absorb this, it is 70% services based.(NBA tickets? Brokerage and Bank fees? McDonald's meal deals?) When those claim checks (US$) come home to roost they will be bidding up the price of US "hard goods" to unheard of heights, much like they did in the seventies. The US consumer is tapped out, and has no net savings except for his "priceless" mutual funds. Credit card companies are chasing consumers to keep buying. OPEC is getting their act together. The euro is coming onstream and will eventually compete with the US dollar for commodities. US 30yr bond yields are going up. Y2K is just around the corner. Put 2 and 2 together. The US dollar and stock market, and conversely gold are ticking...

You sir will eat your words...

Regards

AC

(I almost felt like saying....You sir, are the relic) My! The pendulum does seem to be losing it's inertia.

BTW ANOTHER! THOUGHTS PLEASE! Where are you and what are your comments on the BOE sale?
Peter Asher
Allan C
Don't get to upset over Erdman, He's the guy that predicted TEOTWAWKI happening 20 years ago in a novel called the crash of '79
Richard, Oregon
Peter A
Got Mail!
koan
Peter Asher 2502
I gave it a try, but the 2502 must have slipped into the middle earth itself. What I found was a gap ( 2-17 ended rather abruptly), but thanks anyway.
I always found it interesting that the first book (The Lord of the Rings)to really start so much, was also, in my opinion, by far the best one. Seems sort of poetic. Which is in itself poetic. That confuses even me. Sort of Asheresk. I think that was the guys name who did the illusions. I will try to retrieve 2502 again tomorrow. I am sure it would have been interesting. Thanks again.
Peter Asher
Koan
Back in Feb. the day was split in two sessions, you have to click on "veiw noon to midnight".
Peter Asher
Koan
Back in Feb. the day was split in two sessions, you have to click on "veiw noon to midnight".

Re volume one: I think the beginning of the quest was a more 'earthly' adventure, whereas later it became more of a hard fantasy fiction. Some things got better though, Aragorn III just wouldn't seem the same if he was posting as 'Strider'.
Aristotle
Part 3--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market
...continued from Aristotle (6/23/99; 19:56:08MDT - Msg ID:7997) "Part 2"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/20/99; 15:31:21MDT - Msg ID:7839) "Part 1"

Before I can move into the fascinating region of this miniseries that sheds light on how and why the Gold market is as it is today, this background is vital, so please bear with me, and I shall thank you for your patience. Oftentimes Understanding is its own reward, but in this case it may well prove essential for wealth preservation at a minimum. To begin, we must look at life in these United States (and in the process we will see a compelling reason that import barriers must be fought tooth and nail)...

What does the Texas Railroad Commission have to do with this story? Plenty. So much oil was being produced in Texas in the 1930's that engineers were concerned about depletion and wastage, and the owners whould fret over the effects of oversupply that would at times bring the price per barrel down to ten cents. Tiny independent producers were often drilling side by side with the majors, but when the price slumped their profitability suffered more because they didn't have income from the downstream processes like the majors did. Because some of the individuals operating these independent companies happened to be multimillionaires, their complaining voices were heard thanks to their political contributions.

The state government responded by giving the Texas Railroad commission the power to regulate drilling. And while they didn't have the authority to set prices, they could regulate production levels. By setting an appropriate rate of production, oil would be conserved and this restricted supply would achieve price levels high enough to keep the independents in gravy. This Texas price became the American price, and also the world price (in the 1950's the U.S. was producing half of the world's oil.) This meant pure profit for the major companies with overseas production that cost only ten cents per barrel. To keep the price of oil up, what started as a gentlemen's agreement among the American oil companies to limit the imports of cheaper oil later became enforceded by the U.S. government--known as the "invisible dike" against the outside world of cheap oil. Throughout the 1960's, the Persian Gulf offered the world oil at $1.80, while inside the "invisible dike" oil was being sold to the nation at the Texas price of $3.45 per barrel by the end of the decade.

The great irony is that a Venezuelan lawyer (and oil minister) named Juan Pablo Perez Alfonso studied and used the Texas Railroad Commission as his model for OPEC which he co-founded with the Saudi Arabian director of the Office of Petroleum Affairs, Abdullah Tariki, in 1960. OPEC from the beginning maintained that oil was a depleting asset, and it had to be replaced by other assets to balance national bugets and fund developments.

Now that we know a bit about the producers and the price and cost of oil during the era of "real money" let us take a look at the dollar itself. The dollar and the world was pegged to Gold via the post WWII Bretton Woods agreement in which $35 was convertible to one ounce--but for foreigners only, not U.S. citizens. The U.S. economy steamed along nicely in the 1950's, producing half of the world's oil as I've already stated, and half of the cars that burned up this oil. By the arrival of the 1960's, American industry was buying foreign factories, equipment and raw materials. In addition, the government was spending for its foreign bases and troops, and Vietnam was funded largely in the red. An overhang of dollars was developing overseas, and while at first the foreigners were reassured that the Gold guarantee of the dollar was solid, as ever more dollars piled up, ever more of them cashed in the dollars for Gold. General de Gaulle summed up the sentiment, saying that America had "an exorbitant privilege" in ownership of the key-currency. By that he meant that the dollars America was able to issue via simple printing carried the same value in trade as the dollars that had to be earned by other nations through meaningful productivity. It quickly became clear that too many claims had been issued on the limited Gold, and President Nixon was prompted to close the Gold exchange window in the face of a certain run on the Treasury.

In a quick repeat from Part 1:
"Upon the 1971 declaration by the United States that redemption of dollars for Gold would be terminated, the entities in receipt of dollars for balance of trade settlements had no difficulty recognizing this as an outright default on payment contracts. The scramble was on to make sense of this new payment system in which the dollar was no longer a THING of value (a small amount of Gold), but was now reduced to a CONCEPT of value in which it would denominate essentially undefined units of value in contracts for goods and services. The problem ever since has been in coming to terms with the meaning of value for this shifting and undefined unit, and its vulnerability for mismanagement and abuse."

With OPEC in place, and the dollar now rendered meaningless by traditional standards, the stage is adequately set to describe what followed. With OPEC now united and able to conserve, and threaten to cut back in the grand tradition of the Texas Railroad Commission, they were able to name their terms of payment, and decide essentially what value the dollar would have in oil terms. The increased world demand for oil ensured that the price would be met (Texas was pumping around the clock and still coming up short), and the printing presses essentially ensured that there would be no lack of dollars, so to speak. It is important here to realize the attitude of OPEC, and notably the Middle East. In the mid 1970's, the finance ministers of both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia stressed that their needs were only to provide for the welfare of their citizens, and that oil in the ground is better than paper money. Who from the West can argue with that? They called our money's bluff, fair and square. So in 1971, while the Texas price of oil was $3.45, OPEC priced their Middle Eastern oil at $2.20 (such audacity! don't you think?) only to see the market price due to demand in 1973 overtake the official posted price, at which point OPEC saw the writing on the wall and in October raised the price per barrel to $5.12 while curbing production. By December the Shah of Iran called a press conference to announce the official price would now be $11.65. Well, why not? It's only paper to you if you are not in debt to someone else. And so began the First Oil Crisis of the 1970's.

Just as America had been issuing claimchecks on the national Gold throughout the 1960's, its spending habits didn't change with the advent of the all-paper dollar. As a consequence, the world's greatest transfer of wealth was underway. Watching the rising cost of real estate became a national pastime in the 1970's--an odd distraction from the gas lines and cost of fuel. By raising the price of oil $10 from $1.80 to $11.65, at those current production levels OPEC raised its annual revenues by approximately 100 billion dollars. Now recall from Part 2 where I promised you we would tackle some large numbers, though nowhere near as incomprehensible as the $5.6 trillion U.S. debt. Here we go...

How much IS 100 billion dollars per year? It can't be much, because we all know the Middle East is even now at the end of the 1990's heavily in debt with struggling economies. Right? Well, I invite you to follow along, and judge for yourself. Let's try to spend that $100 billion, and remember, it is 1974. And let's not dink around on small stuff, we'll go right for the big ticket toys. How about some F-14's? Fully equiped (minus missiles because we are a peaceful bunch) they are ours for $9 million each. Grumman on Long Island assembles 80 each year. Hell, let's take 'em all for $720 million.

How about some F-15's too? At $12 million each, we conclude our visit to McDonnell Douglas with 100 under our arm for a cool $1.2 billion. Let's take home the biggest baby the U.S. has to offer...a top of the line nuclear-powered aircraft carrier for $1.4 billion. Better yet, make that two carriers. Throw in some destroyers, some submarines...let's see... We've spent a total of $2 billion on a kicking air force and a little more on a fine little navy. How much money is left in round figures? About $100 billion. And this amount comes in not only this year, but the next, and the next, and the next... [a side thanks to Mr. Goodman for these historical prices]
$100 billion is a large annual paycheck, and we haven't even touched the $30 and $40 dollar prices brought about in the Second Oil Crisis. Now consider again that America has written future claims on $5.6 trillion dollars. Can you imagine how such a figure might be settled? Ouch.

Where did all of this money come from? It would seem that America found an efficient means to issue claims on the country in exchange for something that goes up in smoke. Would OPEC own America lock, stock, and barrel? What would OPEC do with all of that cash? And would there be any end to it? How are the poorer countries that must EARN their dollars, as General de Gaulle indicated, going to fund their own oil needs? Banks are the answer. Buy banks, fill banks, and recycle the petrodollars. Oh, and let's not forget Gold. Straight from two ministers of finance, "We would rather keep the oil than have the paper money." We thank you for that insight.

Now that I have properly set the stage, in the next part I shall relate the really good stuff of Aragorn's tale suggesting where this money went, and how the system survived 20 years after the end was nigh, bringing cheap Gold crumbs for anyone mindful enough to pick them up. To quote that good Knight, "With a payday reaching that magnitude, the question of destiny begs no answer. You set your own, and hope for nice weather."

Gold. Heading to the moon at a world near you. ---Aristotle
AEL
Aristotle
Man! What a series! Can't wait for the next installment.

Would you mind gathering them all and posting them *together* at the end of the line, so that they can be conveniently cut/saved then? Thanks!

Also, you wrote: "Aragorn's tale suggesting where this money went" --- do you have the post # on that?

fine work, my friend!

Alan
The Stranger
Aristotle
BRAVO!!!
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: "I think we are winning!"
MARKET REPORT(6/24/99):

Let the short covering begin:

Wall Street speculators broke ranks yesterday as some who have dwelled on the short side
of this gold market decided that it was better to be a computer blip early than a computer
glitch late and began covering their short positions. One unverified rumor had it that
Goldman Sachs was leading the short covering charge as the yellow metal gained $2 late in
the trading session.

For over a year now, we've contended that there is a split between Wall Street and Main
Street on gold. Wall Street hates gold. So does the financial press. So do most of the
bureaucrats in Washington. Main Street loves gold. In fact, Main Street owns more gold
now than it ever has and the number of ounces owned grows by the day. In fact, all the
questions that have been asked about where the gold has gone from the Wall Street (and
London) mobilizations need remain a mystery no longer. Main Street owns a good chunk of
it -- from Main Street Denver, Colorado to Main St. Dubuque, Iowa to Main Street Kuala
Lumpur, where stands the tallest and emptiest IMF-inspired buildings on the planet. (The
rest of it has probably gone to a select group of national treasuries.) And it is because Main
Street owns this gold, that something unforeseen has happened -- a gold based political
constituency has grown up around it, a gold-based constituency that vote-sensitive U.S.
Congress is beginning to recognize. This has important implications not just with respect to
the IMF issue but with other and future gold related issues as well.

No one has been more surprised than the industry itself that this support has suddenly
surfaced. Bobby Godsell of Anglogold, the world's largest mining company was beside
himself yesterday after a round of lobbying in the Beltway. "I think we are winning," said
the Anglogold CEO almost afraid to say it out loud. He had just made the rounds among
Congressmen with James Motlatsi of the South African National Union of Mineworkers.
Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Jesse Helms along with his committee colleague,
Nebraska's Chuck Hagle, rewarded Godsell's visit with a public announcement of their
opposition to IMF sales. And Bridge News reported this morning that mounting
Congressional opposition "could doom its chances for being implemented."

It was interesting that the press reports yesterday on gold took note of the fact that the price
had moved because it appeared that the IMF gold sales were in trouble in Congress. That
trend was even more pronounced in the reports this morning as you have already read.
Main Street is making itself heard in Washington, and guess what? Washington is
responding. In this writer's view, it won't be long until Wall Street, like Congress, will
find itself listening to Main Street on the gold question as well. Here's why:

There is an old saying favored on Wall Street that one should not fight the tape. But what if
the tape has been "painted?" Main Street senses that the tape may have been painted with
respect to gold and that the price is artificially low. That is why the buying continues despite
the daily negative press. Wall Street in essence is fighting the tape and trying to buy time,
and perhaps what has gone on in Congress with respect to the IMF gold vote will
encourage the realization that it is Wall Street which is breaking one of it's oldest tenets after
nearly a century of preaching the opposite and it is they, not Main Street which is at risk.

It is important for Main Street to realize that because it owns the physical neatly tucked
away in the world's safety deposit boxes, safe storage, etc., we have all the time in the
world. The shorts do not have all the time in the world, especially if they aren't getting any
help from the public -- which at the moment they are not. Their positions are on a fuse and
since its every man for himself in the wonderful world of international trading, defection
(breaking the momentum- trader ranks) -- though a serious crime on Wall Street -- is not
unheard of. Then there's always the problem of being a player and seeing one of the ring
leaders running for the door -- not the stuff of which confidence is made.

I have often said that gold is a political metal and it very well could be that it is a political
event that initiates the next bull market in gold -- perhaps the Congressional vote.
Now...with all our new found confidence, let's not drop the ball on this. Momentum, my
friends, is crucial. Let's continue with the contact of Congress. I urge all those writing on
this subject to keep up the push. We have not won yet. It looks good but, to use another
saying oft used in sport: "It ain't over til the fat lady sings."

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

From Tuesday's report. Thought I would leave it up for a day or two due to its importance
to all of us:

We would like to suggest that all the goldmeisters would be well served to contact their
Senators and Congressman to express their disapproval of the IMF gold sales. If you do
so, you will be joining in with some powerful forces gathering to stop this thing including
the top firms in the mining industry as well as the top gold brokerages. Need I explain the
importance of this effort to you as a gold holder? Not just with respect to your own
portfolio holdings, but to send a message to Washington that here is a large and active gold
constituency for this and other gold related issues that might come up in the future. We have
strong backing in Congress. We need to encourage our friends and let the not-so-friendly
know we are out here. We hear much discussion among gold advocates about how unfairly
gold has been treated. Here's a chance to act and act effectively. There is no guarantee we
will win, but if we do nothing, we are certain to lose.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
AEL
Statement from IEEE (Y2K)

EVERYONE MUST READ THIS STATEMENT FROM THE IEEE!

http://www.ieeeusa.org/FORUM/POLICY/99june09.html

This is one of the best overall summaries to date on the Y2K "big picture",
and from an exceedingly (IMHO) credible source. This is NOT a hawker of
survival supplies talking; this is one of the biggest computer/engineering
tech groups in the world. The focus is legal liability issues, but the
overview is breathtaking.

A few headings, to whet your appetite:

PREVENTION OF ALL Y2K FAILURES WAS NEVER POSSIBLE.

"Y2K COMPLIANT" DOES NOT EQUAL "NO Y2K FAILURES."

ALL PROBLEMS ARE NOT VISIBLE OR CONTROLLABLE.

INCOMING DATA MAY BE BAD OR MISSING.

COMPLEXITY KILLS.

... etc.

enjoy! :)
AEL
question
Anyone have the post # of the Holtzman essay? I was going back to find and cut/paste, but could not find.

Michael: any possibility that the good programmers at CPM could rig up a "search" function for the archives? Would be wonderfully useful. We have a very rich corpus of material online here, but no way to *conveniently* access/pinpoint given materials. (Admittedly I am getting spoiled by Kitco's search functionality...) Comments? Do I hear a second?

Peter Asher
AEL
http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/archives/2219996/default.htmlUSAGOLD (6/22/99; 14:02:44MDT - Msg ID:7920)& #921
Per Holtzman's Request..........
searching
Y2K Analysis
The last couple of days there has been a lot of good info on Y2k posted, so I thought I would add my 2 cents [thats probably over priced]. It appears that the world has divided into two distinct camps, the ones who believe there is a problem and the ones who do not. Regardless of what new info arises pro or con each camp uses it to bolster their position. The public is developing an I do not care attitude, which I believe is due to the spin being put on the issue by the press and government. Well they may have done too good a job. Lately the reports coming out show there really is a problem and unfortunately no one is listening. This may be Slick Willies real legacy not Monica. What a sad state of affairs.
Gandalf the White
<;-) "What a Difference a Day Makes!"
The Hobbits are all smiling as the long bond continues to TANK and again EVERYTHING is down, but the GOOD STUFF! -- But, Like MK sez "Don't stop now!" --- We have only begun to fight.
--- Also, Ari, You are creating a bible that can be used to educate the unknowing ones, something that I have tried to do in my extended family without success for years. Keep up the GREAT work and thanks to you and AragornIII, for pushing the effort to completion. Great to see that the "oily" one, The Stranger, is enjoying it too. -- But, it is also bringing to mind a great number of new questions for later discussion. (BUT that is one of your reasons for doing it in the first place, Right ?)
<;-)
TownCrier
IMF gold sales debate hots up in U.S. Congress
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990623/bdx.htmlIMF gold sales..."Most people don't know that much about it," said Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, a Democrat from California. "For most members there will be a steep learning curve but one thing is certain -- it will be deeply scrutinized."
TownCrier
HEADLINE: Australian stocks close lower but gold glitters
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990624/b8.htmlGold strongly outperforms wider market.

Article is mostly about the stock performances, but the headline and brief mention of gold is good, good!
TownCrier
Have a look at the intraday charts on the indexes, bond, oil, and gold.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/charts.htm#NASDAQ_TBONDThe picture is a sister of yesterday, but the indexes look uglier, and look at that bond yield fly! Man, they can't give that thing away...
TownCrier
Stock-Market Fever Hits China
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990624/china_stoc_2.htmlSitting in rows of plastic seats facing a flashing wall of numbers, the crowd at Great Wall Securities is watching the most exciting show in town: soaring stock prices.
"I started buying stocks last year. I don't have many, but they're up about 20 percent," said Sun Xialong, a 37-year-old businessman. Without taking his eyes off the flickering prices, he said, "I'm staying in the market. I think it will go higher."

To read the above passage, without benefit of the headline or non-american name, you could easily assume this was just another discription of life in the U.S. these days. The next sentiment of the article is that China is in the grip of stock market fever. Doesn't that send up a warning flag that our own state-side behavior en masse has been, shall we say, ridiculous and unbecoming?
koan
Thanks Pete Asher
That was very nostalgic and fun. My story is similiar with a twist. When I stumbled on Tolkian the counter culture was brand new - 1 table of long hairs in the cafe - in a college of 22,000. Everyone, and I mean everyone, thought I had gone nuts (they followed later). When I moved to Alaska one of my friends sent me a package addressed to Bilbo Baggins. Bilbo Baggins and Charlie Brown are more my personality type. My winding road however lead me to the French existentials, and phenomenology, but my flavor is more humane and hopeful - I am sure cosmic consciouness is not nihilistic.
koan
a silver path for those who are looking
If silver takes a run, for any reason, there are really only 4 major silver mining companies. Coeur (cde), Hecla (hl), Pan American Silver (paa) and Sunshine Mines (ssc). Three of the four, all but hl have leaps good for about 18 months (paa.wt, cde and silvz) with approprate strike prices. Leaps would have to be bought before the run because they will get greatly overvalued quickly. I like cde and paa (leaps the best) and then hl - stock and last and least ssc. Just a thought.
Aristotle
AEL, Stranger, and Gandalf...glad to hear the effort is of service
http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/archives/3119995/default.htmlAEL, you asked about a post number in regard to Aragorn's tale. I am happy to say I was there for the verbal version, which tied together and clarified much that has been discussed at this roundest of tables, and much that has not yet been discussed. Click on the link to the archives that I have provided, and scroll down to my post near the bottom to see the root of this series.

Aristotle (5/31/99; 5:59:42MDT - Msg ID:6909)
To post, or not to post; that is the question.

About a week and a half ago I suggested that I might attempt to post a summary of this business, unless of course Aragorn would be willing to shoulder the load at the keyboard, too. Over the course of the week, Aragorn essentially indicated that he would enjoy seeing the tale delivered in my "voice." I have striven to prove myself worthy of his confidence, yet I know if I come up short, he will or some other of you knowledgeable knights will put out a hand to steady my course. "It was greater hands than mine that built this road. I have done no more than admire aloud the straight path I see it follow." Aragorn said something like that, and I can say that it applies to me, too, now that I grasp what was meant.

But enough of this...let me get back to work on Part 4.

Gold. You'll wish you had got you some... ---Aristotle
TownCrier
Foreign Steel Shipments Rebound
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990624/steel_trad_1.htmlAfter the Senate had rejected a quota bill partly based on declining import levels, the latest numbers are likely to revive the U.S. steel industry's arguments that the crisis it suffers from facing low-priced imports is not yet over, and additional protectionist relief is needed to preserve jobs.

Now wait a minute... Haven't we learned anything from being shafted for years by, what was it again...the Texas Railroad Commission? Cheap steel is good for all Americans. Expensive steel is only good for those high cost producers in a competitive market. If another country is dumping, let them dump...we'll take their cheap steel for our paper money. Same goes for EVERYTHING else, we aren't picking on steel. (Sorry for this rant from the Tower...)
Aristotle
To AllanC's (6/23/99; 20:23:48MDT - Msg ID:8001)
AllanC, I enjoyed your response to the Paul Erdman Article! The other day I used a word replacement tool with the good Goldheart, Sir Tomcat, to help evaluate the merits of sugar, silver, and Gold in the world. It objectively showed the instances where silver (and even sugar) might be preferable to Gold under some scenarios, and also showed where it would probably not. When I do the same thing to the Erdman article, however, the result is a complete riot. I have replaced the occurrances of "Gold" with "Money" (note the capital M), and have left his references to money with a lowercase "m".

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Money.

One problem with discussing Money is that it seems to bring out the worst in people. Either they hate it - regard it as a "sterile" investment that does nothing to benefit society, or they see Money as a panacea which will solve all of mankind's problems provided we return to a "Money standard."

It is left unsaid that a return to Money might have also solved a lot of the goldbug's personal problems if, during the past decade, a new dollar link with Money had been established at, say, $500 an ounce, or even $300.

All one can say to them today is: Dream on. But it will never happen.

Last Friday at the Money fixing in London the price was set at $258.95 an ounce, down 10 percent in a matter of five weeks and at its lowest level since 1979.. Why? Because Money is being demonetized and the process is irreversible. The stark facts bear this out.

The Bank of England is going to sell 415 tons of Money, or more than half of its Money reserves. This means that England, which invented the Money standard in the 19th century, is now getting out of the Money business. [Granted, Sir Isaac Newton developed an institutional paradigm that we call a Standard, but Gold had served as Money without an official sector "Standard" for thousands of years prior to that...you putz. --Aristotle]

Switzerland, traditionally a nation of goldbugs, is doing the same. In April the Swiss voted to sever the official link between Money and the Swiss franc. The Swiss National Bank intends to dump 500 of its 1,300 tons of Money to finance its "Solidarity Fund.", with the rest to follow later. According to the President of Switzerland's central bank: "Money is no longer of any monetary importance."

The International Monetary Fund plans to sell between five and ten million ounces of Money to relieve the debt burdens of the world's poorest nations. In this it has the full support of France, Germany and Japan - the remaining key holders of Money as part of their monetary reserves.

So now Money is just another commodity. As is silver. Its price dropped below $5 an ounce last week, no doubt affected by what was happening to Money prices. From now on, the prices of these metals which used to be set by edicts of Britain's Chancellor of the Exchequer or the President of the United States will be set by traders in the pits of the futures markets in Chicago or New York.

How the mighty metals have fallen.

Economist and author Paul E. Erdman is a columnist for CBS MarketWatch.
---------
He's going to regret this article just like Milton Friedman regretted his remarks that oil would never surpass $10 per barrel...but we already covered that one in Part 1. Erdman will get his in Part 4 or 5.

Gold. Make you some. ---Aristotle
Gandalf the White
Take a look at the Chart on XAU.X ( 5 min)
The liftoff is about to happen! Please fasten your seatbelts, as Gollum would say.
<;-)
CoBra(too)
@Aristotle
Aristotle, I personally salute the brilliance of your latest series, which is worthy of the top "aristo"crats on this round table. Looking forward to learn your ultimate conclusions, which are probably subject to "subject logical" interpretation.
I do recall the oil "shocks of the 70's", in particular the terrorist attack at the Vienna OPEC HQ, taking hostages and abducting them to Algeria. I can't recall if Saudi's Yamani was one of them, but I do recall Jamjid Amusegar, the then Prime Minister of Shah' Reza Pahlevi's Iran was one of the victims(,who also barely survived the Ayatollah revolution), which may have caused the derailing of OPEC goals at that stage. - now OPEC is back - BIG WAY!
IMHO, the Club of Rome forecast 1980, prognosticating the eventual end of economic growth, due to depletion of resources - still correct as an overall observation, but not calculating new technologies of intensifying and accelerating the rape of mother earth (I'm not a green, but may reconsider)- at least we may be thankful? by the (virtual) concept of not depleting resources by (deflationary)? ballooning credit bubbles! BS - the other way around, the Austrian School of Economics advocate- unfortunately, this class was missing when (Reaga-) sorry, supply side economics became obsolete, as PV surrendered to AG - too early to understand the l.t. implications.
What a mess - solutions for (softer) landings - anybody?

TownCrier
Tea leaves...Most IMM currencies end higher as U.S. assets fall
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990624/24.htmlFocus is on the upcoming FOMC meeting
TownCrier
Good afternoon, warehouse watchers.
The was modest activity today in the ScotiaMocatta Depository as 950 kilograms of COMEX Registered gold received marching orders from the owner.

"Whither go the gold?" That same question is poised on everyone's lips. Representing 4% of current stocks, we do bid this gold a fair adieu. The COMEX warehouse is no proper place for gold to be. The reek of the piles of paper in this host bank is a stench greater than this TownCrier can any longer bear.

From the heavily armoured and guarded "broom closet" at ScottiaMocatta, this is TownCrier reporting for USAGOLD. Back to the studio...
TownCrier
Bankers warn the IMF and G-7 against market interference
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990624/4b.htmlNo surprise: Big bankers prefer to privatize the profits and socialize the losses. Additional words fail me...
Usul
Erdman's Books (he he, Aristotle)
SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Erdman's Books.
One problem with discussing Erdman's books is that they seem
to bring out the worst in people. Either they hate them -
regard them as a "sterile" investment that does nothing of
benefit, or they see Erdman's books as containing clues
which will solve all of mankind's problems...

It is left unsaid that a return of Erdman's books to the
market might have also solved a lot of the goldbug's
personal financial problems if, during the past decade, a
new dollar link with Erdman's books had been established at,
say, $5 a book, or even $3.

All one can say to them today is: Dream on. But it will
never happen. Last Saturday at the charity shop
in London the price of "The Crash of '79" was set at 30
new pence Sterling, down about 70 percent [but this
excludes all inflation since 1977!], and at its lowest
level since 1977.. And "The Panic of '89", down to 45 pence
from its 1987 price of $4.50.. Why? Because Erdman's books
are being remaindered and the process is irreversible. The
stark facts bear this out. The Bookshop of England is going
to sell 415 tons of Erdman Books, or more than half of its
book reserves. This means that England, which invented the
bookshop in the 19th century, is now getting out of the
Erdman book business...

Switzerland, traditionally a nation of bookbugs, is doing
the same. In April the Swiss voted to sever the official
link between Erdman and the Swiss bookshop. The Swiss
National Bookshop intends to dump 500 of its 1,300 volumes
of Erdman books to finance its "Solidarity Fund.", with the
rest to follow later. According to the President of
Switzerland's central bookshop: "Erdman's books are no
longer of any monetary importance."

The International Book Fund plans to sell between five and
ten million Erdman books to relieve the debt burdens of the
world's poorest nations. In this it has the full support of
France, Germany and Japan - the remaining key holders of
Erdman books as part of their literary reserves.

So now Erdman books are just another commodity. As is
"The Billion Dollar Killing". Its price dropped
below 41 pence last week, no doubt affected by what was
happening to the stock market. From now on, the prices of
these books will be set by charity shops in the pits of the
world's cities such as London, Chicago or New York.
How the mighty books have fallen.
Economist and author Paul E. Erdman is a columnist for CBS
MarketWatch.
Gandalf the White
BOY ! Was I wrong (again)
Looks as if the Floor Traders did it again and near the close bought out all the sellstops of precious metal firms that were on their books. The XAU ended at the low for the day!!!! --- Does this not mean that they too wish to jump on the Goldheart bandwagon ? The clock is still ticking and the "coocoo" bird just sounded twelve. I think that is a good sign.
<;-)
Peter Asher
Aristotle, -- Usal
Ari, forgive me for not complementing you sooner. Great work! Did you give up your day job, or are you not sleeping? --I've been struggling to fit writing time into the long rain-free day, short night, Oregon outdoor work season. It's good to have others to fill the pages here.

Usal, terrific parody!! Words fail me.

All:-- We seem to be adopting that old Ford motto here on the Forum; "Quality is job #1"
Peter Asher
Gandalf
Maybe the gold stocks are being, well, stocks today. Since alot of these companies arn't staying in the black on their digging income anyway, maybe they are taking on the color of the paper enemy. Maybe the anticipated rise in the POG isn'nt enough to offset the true balance sheets that lie beneath the surface of the tapped out, high price forward sales.
TownCrier
Buyers Get Chewed Up as Selling Churns Through Stocks
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/marketroundup/759262.htmlFrom the above article--although Sachs declined to comment, Goldman Sachs bought July 10,700 puts to the tune of 20,000 contracts according to a trader at Wall Street Access. It was "a very bearish signal."

What gives?! Earlier today Goldman Sachs trotted out their perma-bull Cohen to spew her particular incantations of nonsense to bewilder and comfort the masses. Check out these snips from FWN:
--Goldman's Cohen says US inflation fears not warranted
--Cohen: Danger that US is principal source world econ growth
--Goldman Cohen: Fed hike to bring only brief discomfort to mkt
Goldman Sachs chief market strategist
Abby Joseph Cohen said market fears of a looming inflation
problem and of the Fed having to be very aggressive in
raising rates are "unfounded."
Cohen said she did expect the Fed to raise interest
rates next week, but said any rate hike would only bring
about "transitory discomfort in the market."
And she repeated that she viewed any rate hike as a "flu
shot," which if undertaken would be aimed at extending, not
ending, the current economic expansion.
Cohen said she does not expect a "further surge" in
interest rates, saying she thinks it has already happened.
Cohen said the market fears of inflation are "not
warranted" and said she expects inflation will drift only
"modestly higher" in the near term.
She said oil prices have reached "equilibrium levels" at
around $16-$18 per barrel and said the further "noteworthy"
gains are not expected in the coming months.
Turning to the world economy, she said it is definitely
"out of danger" following last fall's financial crisis, but
said it is still a "mixed picture."
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Complex settles up in thin trading
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 24--The New York precious metals complex settled
marginally up today in thin technical trading. Aug gold settled up
60c at $262.4 per ounce on light fund buying.

Some traders said they are looking for more short-covering momentum to
build, with Aug gold reaching possibly as high as $265. However, others
said that despite this uptick, they expect gold to slip back to its recent
$258-260 trading range, with some expecting downward pressure to about
$240. "There's been a lot of fund and trade buying in anticipation that
the market is short," said a trader. "But we're not seeing the follow
through we'd hoped for."

The next technical objective in spot is $263, according to traders.
However, most said they are not expecting a significant rally as the
market is running into producer and dealer selling all the way up. "It
hasn't been an easy road up," said a trader.

Sources said the catalyst to this upward momentum is that Congress and
a few senators are now expressing opposition to future IMF gold sales. The
proposal from the Group of 7 industrialized nations to provide debt relief
to poor countries by selling IMF gold reserves will face stiff opposition
from the US Congress, which could doom its chances for being implemented,
according to Congressional aides.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $262.4, up 60c; RANGE: $262.8-261.5

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
LEVI
COMEX GOLD Call Options
I have noticed interesting development lately in the COMEX GOLD Option
Market, and I wanted to bring it to everyone's notice.

It started on 6/22/99 when there was a large buying (3439 options) of August 270 Call Options (which expire on 7/9/99), as you can see below:

OG 08 99 C 255 07/09/1999 7.60 7.00 0 .00 .00
OG 08 99 P 260 07/09/1999 3.60 3.60 222 3.80 3.00
OG 08 99 C 260 07/09/1999 3.50 3.90 111 3.80 3.00
OG 08 99 P 265 07/09/1999 6.80 6.60 7 6.60 6.50
OG 08 99 C 265 07/09/1999 1.60 1.80 19 1.80 1.60
OG 08 99 P 270 07/09/1999 10.90 10.60 9 10.60 10.00
OG 08 99 C 270 07/09/1999 .80 .90 3,439 1.00 .70
OG 08 99 P 275 07/09/1999 15.00 14.70 0 .00 .00
OG 08 99 C 275 07/09/1999 .40 .50 222 .40 .40
OG 08 99 P 280 07/09/1999 20.20 19.90 0 .00 .00
OG 08 99 C 280 07/09/1999 .10 .20 32 .20 .10
OG 08 99 P 285 07/09/1999 25.30 24.90 0 .00 .00
OG 08 99 C 285 07/09/1999 .10 .10 10 .10 .10

As you can see this is a very large number of options being bought in one day.

Same thing followed the next day when there were over 2000 Call options bought for both 265 and 270 strike prices.

I haven't seen a buying of such a large number of Gold Call Option for some time now.

I wonder who is buying all these options, and if it is one of the big players.

Levi
THX-1138
Y2K comes early for the Global Positioning System
http://www.navcen.uscg.milSomething I pulled off the Air Force Daily News Updates.
You will have to click on the link about the GPS system.
But here is a preview:

In addition to checking Y2K compliance, the test will also verify GPS readiness for a phenomenon known as the end-of-week rollover. The GPS end-of-week rollover happens approximately every 20 years (1023 weeks) because GPS system time, which is counted in weeks, started counting Jan. 6,
1980. At midnight between Aug. 21 and 22, 1999, the GPS week will rollover from week 1023 to 0000. This event is significant because it is the first EOW rollover since the GPS constellation was established and could be interpreted as an invalid date in GPS receivers that were not designed to accommodate this phenomenon in accordance with manufacturing specifications.
(Courtesy of AFSPC News Service)


Voyager
THX-1138

I am looking forward to the GPS rollover. Have Northstar 951X GPS/Chart Plotter on my boat. I will be at sea when the rollover takes place. I am going to very sure where I am at 12:00 GMT.

Mr. Jinx-44. Have missed the past couple weeks of forum reading as I haven't had spare time. Anyway, I really enjoyed your explosion. Alot of people feel the same way.
I especially agree about bankers. I deal with them nearly daily.




koan
Bridgenews
The above gold news talks about dealer and producer selling all the way up from $260 to $262 and how the climb was real rough. What I don't get is if there is a conspiracy to hold gold prices down (and I don't doubt there could be one) why is there so much "producer and dealer" selling on the way up; and how does this jibe with the big shortage. Why don't the shorts just use this situation to cover with this big desire by producers and dealers to sell. I can't believe all of the producers and dealers are involved in the conspiracy trip. What am I not understanding? I would appreciate any enlightenment. If someone responds there is too much to cover, why couldn't they at least start to cover. Seems very peculiar.
tlc
thank you
I want to express my sincere thanks to all the posters on this forum. I feel that I have learned more pertinent info on the FED, gold, money, and important historical events reading here than in all my previous education. Sometimes I am really excited about my new found knowledge but sometimes I am saddened by what I think is happening to us, our country and the world.
Please keep up the good work and thanks again for the time it takes to share your opinions and knowledge.
Peter Asher
TownCrier
Your (6/24/99; 10:24:25MDT - Msg ID:8017)

>>IMF gold sales..."Most people don't know that much about it," said Congresswoman Nancy
Pelosi, a Democrat from California.<<--------And, Looking back on my post of June 1st
>>We had Senator Ron Wydon at our monthly chamber of commerce meeting today. ----After the meeting, I managed to get in contact, and while shaking his hand and introducing
myself, I asked him if he had any awareness or activity regarding the selling of IMF gold, 15%
of which belonged to The USA. He said "I don't know anything about this" !!.<<

It is amazing what our leading representatives can be without a clue about. Now that it's an issue, they'll probably act like they discovered it for us.

Peter Asher
Levi
Thanks for the data on the Aug 270's, I picked up two of them myself on the 11th. It's nice to know I've got strong company.
THX-1138
Voyager
Glad I could provide some useful info and forwarning to you.

Hope you won't be too far from land, and have a safe Voyage.

Got sextant, compass?

THX-1138
Goldfly
Testing......
There were three greenbacks, a $100 bill, a $50 and a $1, who had gone through their life-cycle and were waiting at the treasury to be incinerated. While they were waiting they started talking��

$100:
Yes boys, it's been a good life: I've had some fabulous dinners, seen some great shows, been on some terrific vacations�..

$50:
You know it! I've been to some great ball games, fantastic amusement parks, and some swell first run movies!

$1:
Not me boys�� Every week it was the same thing: Church, church, church��.

GF
canamami
Musings, and post from SI via Kitco
Two recent candidate posts for the Hall of Fame, from Holtzmann and Aristotle. De Gaulle's line about foreigners needing to earn their dollars sums everything up nicely. Also, categorizing Nixon's decision to stop converting dollars to gold in 1971 as a breach of contract also encapsulates everything. Part III particularly was a "shift in the curve" in my economic understanding of the role of gold
canamami
Musings, and post from SI via Kitco
Two recent candidate posts for the Hall of Fame, from Holtzmann and Aristotle. De Gaulle's line about foreigners needing to earn their dollars sums everything up nicely. Also, categorizing Nixon's decision to stop converting dollars to gold in 1971 as a breach of contract also encapsulates everything. Part III particularly was a "shift in the curve" in my economic understanding of the role of gold.

(Please excuse my previous post, as I hit the "Post Message" button by mistake.)

Below please find a somewhat cryptic post from SI via Kitco, but one which sets out a soon-to-be-reached date. I note that Bill Murphy of GATA replied he heard at least some of the same things, so this is just (a) a heads up to everybody, and (b) a query if anyone else has heard something to the same effect from a credible source. The post:

To: Bill Murphy (35798 )
From: THC Thursday, Jun 24 1999 3:45AM ET
Reply # of 35886

****Gambler 1

Date: Thu Jun 24 1999 02:54
Gambler (SAVAGE) ID#441250:
Copyright c 1999 Gambler/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
You heard the rumor coming from England that Goldman Sachs has a 1,000 ton short gold position on its books. With GS's ties to Rubin and his timely decision to step down, some would equate this ( correctly ) as being condoned by the Federal Reserve. In other words, it might as well be the PPT's position. They've been involved for years, but now the "out-of-control" unregulated hedge funds, their yen & gold carry carry trade and wild ass speculation has resulted in dismal performances among the largest several hundred and many of these have been cooking the books for the last two and one half years! This bailing out scenario manipulating POG has worked for awhile but the "PPT String-Alongs" are no longer stringing along. Some are accumulating big long gold positions on COMEX and / or accumulating gold and gold stocks. They know that intersst rates are going to rise very soon after the last few of the few hedge funds have been let off the hook unwinding their short gold positions in the upcoming BOE Gold Auction Sham. I.E., the stuff is alraedt spoken for and is spot deferred. They have way less than they criminally claim to have. I have been told that about 150 tons are already spoken for. Thy're not trying to get rid of the stuff, they've got a potential BANKING CRISIS on their hands and thbey're trying to put out the spreading fires.

BOE has made a HUGE blunder by underestimating the outrage of certain "PPT string alongs" opposed to the poor timing and purpose of the announcement and especially at leaving some of the Big Players out of the loop. As you've no doubt heard, England's Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Brown cancelled his scheduled public appearance before the House of Lords Committee, which oversees the Bank of England's Committee for Monetary Policy. Now he will meet in private on Wednesday evening for his ass reaming.

We have some very interseting weeks ahead of us. Keep your eyes on the Treasury Bond rate as this will be what many are watching before jumping into gold.

Gambler

Return to Kitco Homepage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

canamami
This is the post I meant
I'm going back to bed....obviously not sharp today.

This is the post I wanted to post earlier, from SI via Kitco. This is simply a heads-up. Also, has anyone heard credible rumours to the same effect, about some big-player action in the first two weeks of July? Here it is:

To: Bill Murphy (35797 )
From: THC Thursday, Jun 24 1999 3:45AM ET
Reply # of 35886

*****Gambler 2

Date: Thu Jun 24 1999 01:59
Gambler (D-Day for gold shorts) ID#441250:
Copyright c 1999 Gambler/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
July 12th is D-Day for the gold shorts. It's when the gold shorts get their asses kicked and when the Assie Producers Down Under Theirs go Assbankrupt.

Am I Gambling? You may call it that. I've been buying shares in every descent gold mining company that I can get my big hands on.

Now that SA shares have fallen to an appropriate discount to their NA cousins, I am accumulating those as well. Dollar cost averaging in 99 will prove to be the right action at the right time and place!

The big change in the gold paradigm is taking place and it's my belief that July 5th - 9th will be the time when the crowd finds out. July 12th, Monday, the start of the following week, will be the realization that rumor turns to fact. These two weeks will be extremely significant as we look back upon the reasons for the new bull market in gold and precious metals. I thought the move would start earlier this year, so I've been accumulating since early September. The BOE announcement stepped on a few of the wrong toes. It is turning out to be a huge blunder and has alienated some big players that are now no longer cooperating with the PPT.

Basically, rates up - bonds, market & dollar down! Gold, pms & other commodities up!

They are not going to let the system crash - gold and gold stocks will BE the place to be.

The details have been unfolding since I was given this early July time-frame. Things are/will be getting even more obvious as we approach July. But most will not think this is the real deal as there have been too many false break outs. We came close in April.

Gambler

Return to Kitco Homepage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: Tight Physical Supplies Could Be Harbinger of Rally
MARKET REPORT(6/25/99): All's quiet on the gold front this morning despite a strong
showing in the euro the past two days -- now trading near 1.05 after briefly touching a low
water mark of $1.03 earlier in the week. There was light Aussie based short covering in
Asia overnight and London held firm as dealers there speculated the yellow could start
moving higher as we advanced nearer the first Bank of England auction on July 6.

Standard Bank of London reports strong physical demand underpinning the market
particularly in Asia and the Middle East and reports that refineries are "struggling to keep up
with orders with a logjam developing." We find this an interesting and surprising
development as we go into the weekend which verifies the theory held by many gold
advocates that physical supplies are tightening and have been for some time.

Standard also reports that the World Gold Council has released a study suggesting that the
United States and United Kingdom's citizens oppose official gold sales -- a fact we think is
being reflected in the growing opposition in Congress to IMF gold sales and in the
Parliament for BOE gold sales. The following, excerpted from a letter written by Senator
Tom Daschle, Democrat Minority Leader, sums ups the growing disposition in Congress to
IMF gold saleson both sides of the aisle :

"At a recent business forum you (Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin) spoke of a 'host of
proposals out there that on the surface seem sensible and have great political appeal, but
which, when carefully analyzed, are deeply flawed.' We believe this best describes the IMF
gold sale proposal. We urge the Administration to withdraw its support for the IMF gold
sale proposal. Because of the concerns we have outlined above, we believe it is highly
unlikely that Congress would authorize the U.S. to assent to a sale of IMF gold reserves."

From Tuesday's report. Thought I would leave it up for a day or two due to its importance
to all of us:

We would like to suggest that all the goldmeisters would be well served to contact their
Senators and Congressman to express their disapproval of the IMF gold sales. If you do
so, you will be joining in with some powerful forces gathering to stop this thing including
the top firms in the mining industry as well as the top gold brokerages. Need I explain the
importance of this effort to you as a gold holder? Not just with respect to your own
portfolio holdings, but to send a message to Washington that here is a large and active gold
constituency for this and other gold related issues that might come up in the future. We have
strong backing in Congress. We need to encourage our friends and let the not-so-friendly
know we are out here. We hear much discussion among gold advocates about how unfairly
gold has been treated. Here's a chance to act and act effectively. There is no guarantee we
will win, but if we do nothing, we are certain to lose.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
U.S. first quarter GDP revised up, profits strong
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990625/o0.htmlU.S. economic growth was more vigorous during the first quarter than thought earlier -- GDP expanded at a 4.3 percent annual rate from January through March (instead of 4.1 percent as originally determined) -- well above levels that Fed policymakers consider sustainable.
TownCrier
Gold quiet in late Europe, awaiting British auction
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990625/r9.htmlA senior dealer thinks the auction will "go very well" and possibly improve sentiment in the gold market.
Peter Asher
Uh-Oh!
http://www.kitco.com/gold.graph.htmlTown Crier, Any news would be appreciated.
TownCrier
Compare all market intraday charts
http://www.usatoday.com/money/charts.htm#SP500_GOLDP.A., someone needs cash?
All markets took a turn for the worse around noon.
TownCrier
Oil merger regulators bare teeth on upstream fears
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990625/uf.htmlNews of the upstream segment...where oil comes out of the ground.
Peter Asher
Look again!
http://www.kitco.com/gold.graph.htmlThis is not the usual Comex day here.Should be an interesting report after the close.
TownCrier
Brazilian markets sink on lastest fiscal results
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990625/v5.htmlThe Brazilian currency, the real, and stock market took a fall today on news that the central government announced a deficit in its primary budget accounts...which excludes the cost of servicing the national debt. After setting a target for a primary surplus in excess of 3%, the announced deficit has raised a fear about reaching IMF requirements.

Hey, why don't they just take a few tricks from the U.S. playbook?
Richard, Oregon
Is It $s For Gold Or Gold For $s??
Maybe this is a dumb question (with an obvious answer to most) but this thought just occurred to me this morning:

Re: Covering Short Positions (Physical Gold borrowed from Central Banks or whomever) - I know the borrower must repay borrowed physical Au with physical AU but, I assume is must be OUNCE for OUNCE and NOT take into consideration any current price ($ or whatever currency) of gold? Is that clear? [i.e. - If I borrowed 100oz at $250/oz = $25,000 and now it's time to repay ant the price is $275/oz must I cover that short with 100oz @ $275 = $27,500 (the price I must buy at today to cover my short or can I repay with 90.90oz + physical Au interest??] I think I've answered my own question but I want some expertise to confirm this.

I sense I've worded this much to difficultly but I hope the thought/idea is still understandable.
AllanC
Erdman article
Aristotle- Peter A

Much appreciated your views. Excellent piece, Aristotle.

Usul, you had to outdo everyone, as I was reduced to tears of laughter.

This Erdman who echoes the mentality of some modern day central bankers is a fine example
of revisionism. What arrogance, to imply the people must forever accept the mandates of those who would be gods. What he will realize someday is that events when placed in current context can be misread as those events are very fleeting indeed. Our history on earth has been witness to the follies of our leaders. They give us this narcotic, the fiat money as substitute. But what was taken from us must eventually be returned - honest money!
Aristotle
Hi Peter
I'm pleased that you like what I've presented so far. I am in the midst of Part 4, and am struggling to decide where is the most convenient breaking point from Part 5 which will conclude the presentation. The amazing thing at the end of it all is how clear it is that Gold has never left center stage (except during a brief time during the Second Oil Crisis when all eyes were on oil), and yet so few people grasp it. Essentially, Gold is the only money that there is, and all of the world's floating fiat currencies simply exist for people to have and to hold, for richer or for poorer, for better or for worse, or to unload on a regular basis like I do in exchange for real money.

Here's an simple and slightly flawed analogy, but I hope it gets the point across. Imagine if there was such a thing as a five-hundred dollar bill ($500). There isn't, the one-hundred is a big as it gets, but bear with me. OK, so there is this $500 bill, which is real money, but nobody knows it except for very few people. Now, imagine if there were somehow a bank teller's window that anyone could appoach (if they were mindful enough to know this) where they could buy these $500 bills for only $15 cash. In fact, there could be a small entry in the financial pages each day that tracked the daily exchange rate for this bill, some days reaching as high as $20, but currently at $15. And yet, some people that know about this teller's exchange window still manage to get irritated when the price of the bill drops ever lower. Weird, I know...

But here's the catch...you can't actually spend and derive any benefit from the $500 bill until enough other people also recognize it as money. Right now, if you were to hand it to a store owner for a $495 rocking chair, he would laugh, saying it is a bogus bill. Time and time again I can see how that might shake a person's own confidence, but who are you going to believe, a polyester-clad furniture manager, or your own good sense? And if you want some allies for your own peace of mind, how about consulting a list of national financial ministers and central bankers, and corporate bankers, and oil producers. Their wallets are full of these bills, and were it not for these bills, they couldn't conduct meaningful business. My remaining two Parts will bear this out.

Gold. About to go public. ---Aristotle
Aristotle
Richard, you owe the Gold, ounce per ounce, plus interest.
That will be abundantly clear when my work is done, and if I have done my job to Aragorn's satisfaction, so will much else.

No shoving, the line forms to the rear... ---Aristotle
Richard, Oregon
Aristotle
Thank you - I also meant to mention and thank you for the outstanding series you are doing. It is an honor to sit at the same table as those with such expertise in this field of Gold and world economics. We appreciate it, period.
TownCrier
Mid-day report: NY Aug Gold Lower on Fund, Dealer Sales
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 25--NY Aug gold futures were down $2.2
at $260.2 per ounce as of 1255 ET on fund and dealer selling
ahead of the weekend in technically-motivated, thin trading.
Traders said the fund and dealer selling triggered sell
stops at $260.70-260.80. Jly silver futures fell in sympathy
with gold and were down 7.5 cents at $5.055 per ounce.
Traders said it was inevitable for gold to have a softer
tone today as it was unable to break through $263 on
Thursday. "It was bound to slip back again," said a trader.
"It tried on the upside this week, but failed." Aug gold has
gained $2.50 since Wednesday. "The move today is very
technical, Friday afternoon book-squaring," he said.
Added another trader: "It was a combination of fund
selling, stops and a lack of liquidity that did it."
While most traders said they expect gold to continue
back to its recent trading range of $258-260 next week, one
trader said he thought gold might attempt to push
higher.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
Aristotle
Uhhhh....that would be the line to the castle's glowing treasury
The day approaches for my monthly swap next week. I'd hate for you guys to cut in front and bid up the exchange rate on me! ---Aristotle
AEL
japan's debt

regarding Japanese debt problems, this remark appeared
today on a Y2K message board:

"The Japanese are holding close to 350 billion in 10 year US
Treasuries which will come due in a few weeks. They will simply redeem them in September. Our 350 billion payment to Japan on September 15 will help bail them out of this crisis."

hmmmm... comments? what are the implications of this
(if true)?

TownCrier
Clinton says paying down debt best for economy
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990625/4g.htmlJudging from his statements, the president clearly has little grasp on the nature of money...or else he's only talking to those with little grasp themselves.
TownCrier
Great article! HEADLINE: Checkout Scanner turns 25
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990625/checkout_s_1.htmlIt was fantastically ingenious of the New World Order to introduce this technology in the harmless guise of a computerized check-out tool that enhances the business approach to inventory and marketing trends. ;-)

In celebration, I will be having a bar code tatooed on my butt.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review: Aug gold down $1.60 on fund selling
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 25--NY Aug gold futures settled down $1.60 at $260.80
per ounce on fund and dealer selling ahead of the weekend in technically
motivated, thin trading. Traders said fund selling into the recent rally
triggered sell stops at $260.70-260.80, causing Aug to slip as much as
$2.40 to a low of $260.

Traders said it was inevitable for gold to have a softer tone today as
it was unable to break through $263 on Thursday. "It was bound to slip
back again, after gaining $2.50 since Wednesday. "It tried on the upside
this week, but failed." Sources had said the catalyst to this upward
momentum is that Congress and a few senators are now expressing opposition
to future IMF gold sales.

Traders attributed the move down to very technical, Friday afternoon
book squaring. "It was a combination of fund selling, stops and a lack of
liquidity that did it," said a trader.
"The rally failed yet again," said another trader. "Every rally we
have has been sold into. We're seeing absolutely no follow through. After
Aug failed to get above $263, there was yet another seller."
One trader said that gold has corrected its oversold position "but now
there is no shortage of sellers in this market." A few traders said they
continue to hold their bearish positions and expect Aug to reach a new
life of contract low next week.
In the news, PricewaterhouseCoopers, the receiver for Canada's
insolvent Royal Oak Mines Inc., is confident that all of the company's
gold mining assets can be sold, or be under contract to be sold, by the
end of August, according to the Globe and Mail. The Ontario Superior Court
extended the deadline to Jly 9 for the receiver to get letters of intent
for the British Columbia Kemess mine.

Morgan Stanley precious metal equity analyst Doug Cohen is reducing
his 1999 average gold price forecast to $275 per ounce from $290 per ounce
and is also reducing his 2000 forecast to $295 per ounce from $310 per
ounce. Cohen also cut his long-term forecast for 2001 and beyond to $310
per ounce from $325 an ounce.

Jly silver also was met with heavy dealer and fund selling, triggering
sell stops at $5.10, after it failed to break through $5.15. "It tried to
break through in London and again in New York, but the funds came in a
sold it off."

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $260.8, down $1.60; RANGE: $262.8-260.0

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
TownCrier
Tea leaves -- Most IMM currency futures end higher, light trade ahead of FOMC mtg
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990625/2p.htmlCenBanks really foil the charts and straight lines of the technical traders of currencies...
AEL
japan's debt

regarding Japanese debt problems, this remark appeared
today on a Y2K message board:

"The Japanese are holding close to 350 billion in 10 year US
Treasuries which will come due in a few weeks. They will simply redeem them in September. Our 350 billion payment to Japan on September 15 will help bail them out of this crisis."

hmmmm... comments? what are the implications of this
(if true)?

canamami
Why Gold Down Today?
Most of the internet gold/silver commentators -e.g., Steven Jon Kaplan - were calling for a rally today, in both gold and silver. However, of course, both declined today. This is of some concern because the $US was down today also. Any theories why gold and silver fell?
Aristotle
Part 4--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market
...continued from Aristotle (6/24/99; 6:17:53MDT - Msg ID:8007) "Part 3"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/23/99; 19:56:08MDT - Msg ID:7997) "Part 2"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/20/99; 15:31:21MDT - Msg ID:7839) "Part 1"

One Oil Crisis down, one to go. We looked at some pretty incredible figures is Part 3. Where did this money go, and maybe more importantly, where does it come from? For the sake of brevity I will assume the reader is well aqainted with the process of money creation via modern banking. If not, then you have some important questions to ask and research to do. For now, accept on faith that new money is created (as a simple ledger entry at a bank) through the process of borrowing. A loan creates new money, and banks may create money far in excess of what they hold on deposit. As a contract, the loan is quite real, but the dollar is not. A dollar is an undefined concept--an undefined unit of measurement of value, so to speak. Such an arrangement really favors those in a position to name their price!

As you can well imagine, for a country that had been subsisting on simple agriculture and the business of Pilgims, a sudden infusion of such a magnitude of money can be seen as pure gravy, and a fine opportunity for capital improvements to national infrastructure. Much of this money flowed back to the rest of the world to pay for international contractors and materials. But clearly, much more money was coming in than could possibly be spent. Vast sums of it found its way into the world's largest international banks--the five largest American, three largest Swiss, three biggest German, two biggest British, and then on to the next tier... Suddenly there were over one hundred banks that set up shop in tiny Bahrain: Citicorp, Chase Manhattan, Barclays, and Bank of Tokyo among them, all competing for surplus oil profit deposits. Paris also suddenly found itself host to over 30 new Arab banks.

So much money flowed in, and so much was lent in turn to the poor countries that could scarely afford to buy oil with their meagre exports, that financial system became a large game of musical chairs, and the biggest risk was that the music might stop. There were no chairs to sit on! To protect themselves from the unthinkable--that the Arabs might pull their deposits out of an individual bank--the banks developed a system. This system provided for the relatively smooth interlending of funds--because even though a bank can create new money "out of thin air," they have to have deposits in the bank as a starting point. If these funds were to be withdrawn, the bank must locate other deposits to cover the outstanding loans. If the money were pulled, say from a British bank, it had to go somewhere...the amount of money was too great to "hide" for long. This British bank could call around, and arrange to borrow it back from a Swiss bank, or German bank by paying a nominal interest rate on this interbank loan. As long as the petrodollars stayed in the banking system, the banking system would survive. In fact, that is how the world weathered the storm of the First Oil Crisis. Such a grand scheme of inter-reliance was formalized by several central banks in a meeting in Switzerland to handle any event should money come up short in one area or another--the Basel Concordat. Have you ever heard of the LIBOR in any of your financial reading? Some credit card issuers make use of the LIBOR instead of the US. prime rate in their contracts. It is the London Interbank Offered Rate, and functions as the international bank borrowing rate, and it is the tie that binds the group together into a nearly seamless global financial System.

When the First Oil Crises cause a global tightening of belts, only America, as the issuer of the key-currency, could shamelessly create new money with ease to pay its bills. Other countries had to balance their own books with productive output, or else turn to the banks to borrow the needed funds. And borrow they did! Let there be no doubt that these petrodollars were recycled through banking systems. Throughout the Oil Crisis and the distractions of the Nixon Watergate scandel, the former Secretary of Defense under the Johnson adminstration and now president of the World Bank, Robert McNamara, was focused on one thing only--maintaining the good graces of OPEC. McNamara had to ensure continued access to OPEC's funds. During 1974, the World Bank had drawn on OPEC for $2.2 billion, for a total at the time of $3 billion--one quarter of all World Bank debt at that time. For Euroland banks, business was booming, because lending was their business. The IMF had its hands full. Some of the countries that quickly found themselves behind the eight-ball: Brazil, Korea, Yugoslavia, the Philipines, Thailand, Kenya. You can well imagine that there aren't enough coffee drinkers in Saudi Arabia to achieve a meaningful balance of trade of coffee beans for oil. So in a move that is driven more by politics than banking, in order to ease the financial squeeze upon a nation's citizens and industry, the governments would turn to their central banks, and to the international and multinational banks to secure the needed money. And the banks couldn's stop lending, because many countries relied on new loans to pay off the old loans in addition to their continued need for oil. Loans in default were simply rescheduled. There were no chairs, and the music could not be allowed to stop. If a bank were to fail, what would the Arabs do with their remaining deposits, now clearly in jeopardy? Further, the inflationary impact of all of this borrowing was also a fact not lost on the OPEC nations. Many of the OPEC member's advisors and ministers held Ph.D.'s from prominent American colleges. The did not have their heads in the sand. The inflation would lead to a new price of oil just to recapture the value that was lost, and the cycle would intensify in the next round. OPEC knew the western currencies were depreciating faster they were compensating with price hikes. They were getting less "real" money as a result. Hopeless.

Remember Jelle Zijlstra with the "moon" comment earlier? As head of the BIS in 1980, he confidently predicted that the Second Oil Crisis could be worked through, slowly, but that the System (international financial system) could not survive a Third Oil Crisis...the inflation would make it impossible to recycle the petrodollars to the oil importing countries with any hope of repayment, trade would crumble, and the System would be brought to its knees. On that grim note, we need to take a quick look at how the world reacted to the Second Oil Crisis. It opens the door to everything that follows.

By now you are desperately (patiently?) awaiting mention of Gold. There it is. Now back to the story... No, seriously, pay attention here, and things will start to fall into place. I hope you have noticed the few references to oil prices throughout this series. In most cases, the oil was made available at a posted price. In the 60's, OPEC's posted price was $1.80 (though sometimes the producers would undercut that to gain an advantage through aditional volume), then it was $2.20, and within weeks it had been changed again to $11.65 (in late 1973). By early May of 1979 the posted OPEC price was $13.34 per barrel, but life was about to change. The key element to keep in mind is that oil was not priced directly by the market. It was mostly sold under long-term contracts at posted prices that were determined by the producers after careful analysis of what the market could bear under self-imposed production levels.

When the Ayatollah Khomeini's revolution deposed the Shah, Iran's 6 million barrel per day production fell off dramatically, and the resulting shortage sent the downstream processes scrambling for sources of oil anywhere to feed their refineries. Many turned to Rotterdam for oil, to fill their empty tanks. The deepwater port at Rotterdam was the principle harbor where huge tankers could be found to deliver oil on the spot, and hence the spot market for oil was often referred to as the Rotterdam market, but in truth, the spot market was available worlwide. It was never meant to determine the price for oil, but was only supposed to supply day-to-day purchases. Due to the stresses of low supply, the Rotterdam price sailed above the posted OPEC price on Tuesday, May 15,1979 to $28, and two days later it reached $34. Iran immediately took what little prodution remained and sold on the Rotterdam market. OPEC then set a ceiling price for oil at $23.50 per barrel, but that was soon broken by soon broken by Libya and Algeria. Obviously, Rotterdam was the place to sell oil at the best price, so many tankers with long-term contracts for oil stood empty while ever more of OPEC member production was diverted through Rotterdam. Countries and many companies looked at the low levels in their storage tanks, and soon they were rushing to support the Rotterdam market with their business. The "spot" price reached $40 per barrel as uncertainty about the future brought forth every empty tank or dilapidated tanker out of retirement to be filled.

Gresham's law can help explain this phenomenon, as the bad money is spent and good money is saved. Oil was saved as a store of value, and money was spent. The flames of this Rotterdam inferno were eventually cooled as the last available storaged tank was filled to capacity. This display of the "spot" value for oil reinforced OPEC's concept of value, and they had no qualms about raising the posted price to the spot value. Please recall, "We would rather keep the oil than have the paper money." Any student of history will also recall that the explosion in Gold prices occurred in 1979 to early 1980 that showed us Gold priced at $850 per ounce.

What has changed in the world since 1980? There really haven't been any similar blowups in pricing important assets...so how was this wild tiger tamed? Is the money better than it once was? Or are the OPEC nations now suddenly and truly beggars upon the West's doorstep? What happened? Do the multinational banks that were once scrambling for to hold together the System now call the shots with nary a care in the world?

In Part 5, I promise to end this tale, and answer the biggest mysteries about Gold in the easiest of terms. The road will seem so straight and fair to travel, you will kick yourself for struggling through the brambles for so long, and wonder at your neighbors who STILL can't see the path, though it is truly a freeway.

Gold. Better off with it. Moneyless without it. (Trust me on that one...until Part 5 when you will know the case yourself, independent of distractions.) ---Aristotle
bmacd
Gold Down
I'm not trying to be smug, honestly, but the reality is gold was down because there were more sellers than buyers. Why is the question. It's such a small market, that if the shorts can get in and squeeze a bit, well until there's the mass buying power out there, they'll succeed. It's getting tighter, and there's so little downside left, small amount of time now.....
bmacd
last post
Sorry, that was in answer to Canamami's question.
The Stranger
Waiting for Part V
ARI- YOU HAVE ENRAPTURED ME!
Cavan Man
Dear Aristotle
Magnificent! In the event of a third crisis, what is your opinion regarding the siezure of oil by the West (US) to avert a calamity?
Leigh
Missing Posters
Where, oh where is Golden Truth? Where's Al, BC, Goldfly, Julia, and all you other missing posters? SteveH, please get your computer fixed - the Forum isn't the same without you! This is a tedious, difficult time for gold lovers, and it would be GREAT to hear from some old buddies! Are you guys buying more gold? What are you doing this summer? Has everyone written to their Congressmen? Michael, it'd be a good time for a new contest or something just to pull people in from the woodwork!
Beowulf
Contest! good Idea Leigh
How about a contest on who can write the best letter to their congressman/congresswoman about not supporting the IMF sale? Everyone could post their version and the winner is the one we use to send to our representative. I know I have a hard time writing letters and putting the correct facts in them, others might have the same problem and we just need a good letter with the correct facts to inform our politicians of the FACTS.
Aristotle
Cavan Man, you asked an important question...and one that the military had plans for in the 70's.
"what is your opinion regarding the seizure of oil by the West (US)?"

If that were to happen, I assure you I would take the first opportunity to take the two most important heads (literally) of our government, one in each hand, and bring them rapidly together like two coconuts...

How can we expect to govern ourself with a respect for individual property rights and rule of law if we are willing to perpetrate such an unsavory act upon others? We are supposed to be the good guys that play by the rules. And if that weren't enough, there are enough business ties currently established by large American corporations in the Mid East, with prospects for more, that it isn't exactly an a clear cut, all-or-nothing situation of one nation's prosperity and another nation's gloom. And if it were, maybe a little self-imposed gloom is good to build character. The cold reality is that the world was not created for the sole benefit of the United States. I'm sure we can find a way to utilize our vast natural resources and human ingenuity to work things out in the long run without sacrificing our principles and integrity. If not, it's coconut time, know what I mean?

Third crisis? We may have already been there...Persian Gulf War/Desert Storm. Granted, it was small, but there wasn't much margin for error in the system. Let's see...when did the Asian Contagion occur?...takes a little time to settle in and grow to a degree beyond all efforts of management or containment... Hmmmmmm...Maybe related, maybe not. Korea, Thailand, Philipines...those WERE among the countries that got into tough times early on, after all.

The Stranger--pleased to know you are following along. Glad you've rejoined the group, too, in case I've neglected to mention that since your return. I hope you gave serious thought to picking up those Gold coins as I suggested. I keep some of MK's goodies on my keyboard for inspiration. If you've liked this latest series, apparently the method is working. Got nearly half a pound worth of inspiration in view at the moment. Life is good, my friend!

I hope to have Part 5 finished today. We'll see how accommodating the schedule is. I don't expect a Part 6, but whatever is required, I'll see it to the end.

Gold. Make you some. ---Aristotle
Cavan Man
Aristotle
I agree with your sentiments. If I knew you were Irish, I'd say that I "got your Irish up". I do not think it (siezure) improbable. After all, we have a lot of V-8's to gas up now.

Was Desert Storm a third crisis? Yes, I'd agree. What the American consumer does not understand about the price of a gallon of gas is the military subsidy. In reality, we probably pay near of cost of Western Europe for example.

I did not understand your comment about the "Asian Contagion". Would you explain please? Best regards Sir.
Julia
Aristotle, Leigh
Sure am enjoying your mini-series. Can't wait for part five!!! Hope you will have time to post it today as I will be out of town for a while starting tomorrow.
Ari, thank you for being here. Your knowledge and thoughts are irreplacable. I so appreciate your responses to my posts in the past.
Anxiously awaiting part five, Julia

Leigh - I 'm still here. Just extremely busy. I'm trying to catch up on reading everything but will be gone again for awhile. Glad you're here. Julia
Technician
Gold scenario
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlThe technical performance of gold Friday was in context with the bottom I called for Monday, 21 June. Allow me to give a probable scenario.
a) Gold rallies to $275 area before selling takes it down to the $250-$265 level. There will be basing at this level with $5-$10 range until a base can be establish on which to launch it's own legitimate bull market. Entry points will develop over a period of several years while gold proceeds from $260 to $800-$1000. Regardless, A major bottom, if not absolutely lowest, has been set. If gold follows this scenario and after several weeks breaks to $250 then buy. I have described typical birthing process for man bull markets. They have same pattern. Trick is to look at those markets with potential to be bulls. Gold, oil, copper, etc.
b) on my web site (established 28 May) I have noted the bullishness of copper, sugar, CRB, and currencies. I noted a sell signal on $ the 9th June and expect DM and SF (especially DM) to have seen their lows.
c) There is a lot of schizophrenia in the market but expect all bearish commodities to turn bullish over time.
Results of my web poll, which will be strongest commodity in the coming months:
1) gold 63%
2) crude 19%
3) Dow 8%
4) $ 2%
5) CRB 8%

If you visit my web site please take part in polls, only pleasure I get is knowing there is somebody actually reading the thing:) I am in no way a professional in sense I have not a commercial interest in reading these tea leaves. Just a hobby and just promising enough to keep me engrossed. My observations not my recommendations.
Technician
Misleading typo
Not should be omitted from I have not a commercial--- Really changes meaning of sentence, sorry.
Chris Powell
Gartman mocked GATA, now sounds like it
http://www.egroups.com/group/gata/141.html?The Gartman Letter now sees Goldman Sachs
short 1,000 tons of gold and sounds like
GATA just a few weeks after disparaging
GATA.




USAGOLD
E-Mail for Bill Murphy/GATA

Le Metropole members,


I smell a rat!

The bond market cannot rally for diddly. 114 07 basis
Sep futures has stopped several feeble rallies. Bond
yields have soared to 6.15% - unthinkable by all just
6 months ago.

We have had a hush hush meeting of leading world banking
officials in Philadelphia a couple of weeks ago and strong
indications of massive redemptions at hedge fund biggies,
Tiger and Soros. There were the rumors and a denial of
an emergency Fed meeting all over the wire services
followed by a stunning $20 billion intervention
implemented to hold back the yen ( the old yen carry
trade problem surfacing again ).

And the last two days the word is that two more
hedge funds are in trouble; Ross Capital and
Monroe Trout are the names that have surfaced. Monroe
Trout was heavy sellers of German Bunds the past
two days as that market has been hit very hard.
It would appear that the de-leveraging process that
David Tice and Charles Peabody have been telling
you about in the Cafe for some time is exactly
what is going on here.

Then today, the gold market was trading quietly when it dropped
a quick $2 just as THE BOND MARKET was breaking after a
failed rally. What happened? The XAU was steady as a rock.
Well, I found it was a customer of Goldman Sachs that just
happened to sell 50,000 oz. at the right time which set off
stops.

Not the time and place to get into the whole program yet, but
it feels more and more like part of that Goldman Sachs
1,000 tonne short position, that our sources tell us has been
uncovered on the books, might be part of a Fed trading account.
Goldman Sachs was a featured seller almost every day after
the BOE auction. You are aware of that because we reported
that info to you. Soon, we will lay out our comprehensive
thesis of what we think is going on here. But, before you
new Caf� members think I am a bit daft, here is article
354 from the Federal Reserve System book ( we will tell
you soon, but you might want to look and see who is
behind the Federal Reserve. Most people have no clue -
I know because until recently I had no clue either ):


*354 "Transactions involving gold coin, bullion, and certificates"

"Every Federal reserve bank shall have the power to
deal in gold coins and bullion at home or abroad,
to make loans thereon,exchange Federal reserve notes
for gold, gold coin, or gold certificates, and to
contract for loans of gold coin or bullion, giving
therefor, when necessary, acceptable security,
including the hypothecation of United States bonds
or other securities which Federal reserve banks
are authorized to hold."

So the Fed has the right to trade the gold market.

Perhaps this makes the picture a bit more clear about
the BOE sale and Goldman Sachs. The Fed knew about
Long Term Capital Management way before it blew up.
After all, LTCM had the Central Bank of Italy as
investors as well as former Fed officials. That is
probably why Alan Greenspan made his "
central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing
quantities should the price rise" statement before two
Congressional subcommittees on July 24 and July 30 of
last year. He knew what lay on the horizon. After all
he prides himself on that. His smoke signal statement
was a clear one to the bullion boys. You can check the
record, but gold cratered before LTCM blew up and after
his statement.

It is now clear that problems were surfacing behind
the scenes again a couple of months ago ( remember
Peabody's unintended consequences as a result of the
LTCM bailout and the 3 interest rate cuts ). Greenspan
could not go to the same well again. So just as the
price of gold is taking off this time and gold share
prices are having their greatest surge in 6 years
all over the world, our officialdom calls up the
English Poodles to make their ridiculous gold sale
announcement ( May 7 )- the first pre announcement
like that in over 20 years. And then
Alan Greenspan has the gall to tell the Joint Economic
Committee in Congress the English did so as to not
take advantage of the private market place. Thus by
definition, he inferred that the central banks that have
sold gold for the past 20 years and announced
their sale weeks after it was completed all "took
advantage of the market place" and in a sense were amoral.

We do think a big gold price rise is coming going into
the auction, but the Fed's nervousness over the bond
and stock markets may be a mitigating factor.
Regardless, we are doing our due diligence to find
out the truth about who is manipulating the gold
market and why they are doing so.

Caf� members know that Long Term Capital Management
sent us a letter and an affidavit and letter denying
trading any gold. We are in the process of cordially
responding to them and will ask for some SPECIFIC
clarifications.

In the meantime and interestingly, we were bombed
today by Caf� members that sent us this comment
from The Gartman Letter - Friday, June 25, 1999.
It is a renowned letter and read all over the world:


"Precious metals are firmer helped, of course, by
rising interest rates but helped even more by reports
that the major Wall Street firm long associated
with a large short position in gold (Goldman Sachs...
having apparently inherited that position from LTCM
last year) may be in fact "the bid" to the BOE's offer
when the latter auctions a goodly portion of its
gold reserves next month. The BOE's auction has
pressured the gold market and reports of this
firm's intention to take all of the first 25 tonnes
of gold, when it becomes more publicly understood,
stands to push gold prices rather sharply higher.
Goldman, according to our sources, has proven to be
a formidible bid to the futures all week, making the
rumours all the more readily understandable."

This is very strange. Many weeks ago Mr. Gartman
"condemned GATA in his Gartman letter for
conducting our investigation. Later he spoke
of the 1,000 tonnes short position rumor that we
have told you of, and did so acknowledging he
was reporting what the market talk was even
though Goldman Sachs is a several client
subscriber to his newsletter.

So what gives? Where did he get his information
about Goldman Sachs inheriting an LTCM gold position?
That is what we said, yet we get abuse for saying
the same thing he does.

Even though he condemns us, we thank Mr. Gartman
for pointing out to the world what our inquiry
about LTCM was all about in the first place.


One thing I promise you. The Cafe will be jumping this
summer.
Aristotle
Hello Cavan Man and Julia
Just to clarify, when I suggested a little "gloom" might be good to build character, I hope that wasn't taken for something it is not. Gloom was probably not the best word. I should have used "challenges". It is interesting to note that J.P. Perez Alfonso himself once stated, "Wealth distorts the values of of people who do not work for it." (He wasn't casting this stone at America, although it might sound that way, and it might in fact apply quite well to the handfull of 1990's stock market tycoons, and just about anyone who takes an easy lifestyle for GRANTED. Always stay in tune with how you got there.) He was worrying aloud about the effect upon the neuveau riche of OPEC. It seems there is something universal about the Puritan work ethic to build a man's character.

The Asian Contagion is the popular term for the wave of economic downturn's that bring about a currency devaluation in one country, only to effect an economic downturn among its neighbors with significant trading ties, followed by a currency devaluation that rolls the effects along to the next country. This is a consequence not only of the banks being interdependent as I covered in Part 4, but also of businesses and national economies being interdependent, tied together through trade. "If you don't buy my tennis shoes, how can I buy your radios?" Sure, a country could try to meet its own needs internally, but then you lose out on the beneficial power of effecient resource utilization and specialization (division of labor). A nation's economic niche in the world is often based upon what it can do better and less expensively than any other. That is why trade barriers must stay down, like they are among the united States of America. Imagine if a landlocked region like Colorado had to produce its own seafood, and a coastal region like Florida had to produce its own beer from mountain spring water.

On this topic of interdependent entities, and banks specifically as discussed in Part 4, I hope it is clear to everyone how vulnerable the entire System is to Y2K and the potential for the toppling of a domino or two. The more you know, the better you can plan and participate in your own protection against reasonably anticipated probabilities. That doesn't have anything to do with my series, but since this was sparked by the Asian Contagion, I thought I might as well mention another one of the "Horsemen" as a riding companion.

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle

I've got to apologize for the large number of typos in my Part 4. I didn't have time to proof read prior to posting--I was being coerced to depart promptly for dinner. Fortunately, I believe the message survived, and I shall attempt to avoid similarly taxing your patience in Part 5.
Richard, Oregon
The Aristotle Series
I just completed a 'cut and paste' of the first four messages in the 'Aristotle' Series. I did full justification and spell check (boy does this guy spell good as compared to myself) and put them all together, in series, in one WorpPerfect file. The file can be saves in various "other" formats and probably emailed to anyone interested in saving them and saving yourself the time of 'cut/paste' etc. Just let me know. Bids are out to book publishers and movie rights are on the table (just kidding)! I am patiently awaiting the next of the series. Richard (Overcast and cool (65f) in Oregon's Willamette Valley today)
Leigh
Hi, Technician
Saw your website - it's very impressive and shows a lot of work! You know, as I was reading your message (which is similar in tone to some others on this and other fora), I was thinking about how there seem to be two rise-of-POG camps: the "miraculous intervention" camp (something BIG will happen soon and all the shorts will be exposed and incarcerated, etc.) and the "technical" camp, of which you seem to be a part, which studies the technical trends. Another, FOA, and Gambler appear to be in the "miraculous intervention" camp, and July 12 is rumored (by Gambler at least) to be "D-Day." What do other posters here think? Is the POG going to rise in a blaze of glory or will it chug along in a "technical" way?

I tend to be in the "miraculous intervention" group. I think there are goings-on behind the scene, about which I can only take guesses (Japanese bond sell-off, OPEC pricing structure change, Chinese bond sell-off), but which are being hinted at.

I'd love to hear from other posters about what they think is going on. I've been trying to warn some relatives about impending doom and the need to purchase gold, and when they ask me what I think is going to happen I start getting embarrassed and kind of vague, because I'm not sure.
Golden Truth
Missing You!!! F.O.A
Wondering how you are doing? In what seems to be a time of a possible move in GOLD i want you to know. That when i read your posts about the ins and outs in the world of GOLD. You make me feel like a 16 year old out on my first date with a beautiful young girl. Trust me it has been a long time since i felt this way. Thanks again for this, for even if GOLD falls off the face of the Earth i will always have these feelings!!! Your posts are truley admired. See You Soon??? Golden Truth.
CoBra(too)
@Aristotle
Thank's for your insight to which I concur mostly - though a thought occurred to me, which I would be pleased if you could consider and equate in your series.
The enormous amounts of PETRO-$, created through the oil shocks of the 70's were mostly deposited in major US and European banks, which as a consequence were flooded with never experienced liquidity. A bank's purpose is to earn interest - so the flood of oil funds were loaned to Latin American and other emerging countries in order to improve the economic infrastructure, to enable eventual payback*.
Payback it was, not too different from today's Russsia, using additional loans to pay back interest on old loans to avoid default. Even at that stage default of a sovereign nation could not be tolerated in terms of the survival of the new fiat system.
While, today, we still have all the potential default problem of sovereign nations - World Bank, IMF etc. have put their last fingers into the dyke (in form of hundreds of billion $'s), subject to taxpayers not revolting, to avoid the flood of a complete melt down of the system, we now are faced with a new challenge. The total globalization of markets. Great - I'd subscribe to it right away, if the old problem of Petro $'s would have been concluded in a viable way. But they haven't- the problem was rolled over until - new cures could/may be found.
The cures came in handy in the form of hedge funds. A leveraged play, may rapidly get me out of all my bad and defaulting loan problems. Leverage, from now on was the bible! - and all the major players in the (formerly conservative and collaterized) credit markets rallied to be part of the new and exciting, totally risk free paradigm ("subject to the FED's blessing")of the new era of trillion $ markets in order to sevice the old, unaccounted (nor paid) interest on the old billion credit $ markets. Credit Bubble - no way - it i only 5% of the global population benefitting of bubble - the rest is erroneousley extending the life span of the (hot-poisous?)air of fiat.
Back to the issue: Oil contract settlement upset the system?
OK - did the WEST ever pay up or diffuse the issue - to who's advantage? - (A US gallon "NOF GAS" still costs only a quarter of a EU equivalent)... 20 y's of calm? 20 y's of gold tanking! New pardigm of wealth in the US- in view of negative saving and exploding trade deficit ... spells the old paradigm of impending desaster!

Could go on, sorry for long post- but OPEC is not joking anymore - so, just imagine GOPEC (Gold Producers) are not willing victims to CB's and Bullion Banks anymore, including the BOE, IMF and SNB(blackmailed) anymore to political colluders, the view would change miracouslely. No miracle - let's get back to free markets!!!
koan
my 2 cents
I do not think gold is going anywhere, anytime soon, without a drop in the dollar. I know this is heresy, but to say anything else would be a lie. I have followed gold, closely, for 20 years and have watched its personality change with the times. I hope I am wrong as I will make a fortune (enough to retire)if gold goes over $350. I hold over 40 junior mining companies most of them more silver and zinc than gold, but they will all rise if gold gets going. Producer forward selling and the strong U.S. dollar is the problem as I see it, and an infinite overhang. I make a bit through trading, buying grade A exploration companies, rich companies and hoping for a move in silver. If gold goes, its a bonus. There could very well be a conspiracy to hold gold down (but I have not seen the proof, just esoteric conjecture -- which might be right), however the dealer selling and producer selling and strong dollar, to me, just reflects the reality. Another thing is that with the advent of heap leaching a lot of gold can be produced profitably for $260 an oz, once aagain,especially with the dollar so strong. If gold makes a move up I will bet you, you will see a corresponding drop in the dollar, not a calamity. Remember in Canadian, aussie and Kiwi dollars gold is between $382(can) and $520 (kiwi). I hate being an iconoclast, but this is how I see it.
ET
USAGOLD

Hey Mike - thanks for posting Murphy's comments. He appears to be correct in his assessment that somebody or somebodies are very short this market.

It is interesting to note once more Aragorn's comments regarding these attempts at moving physical into the market. Aragorn noted that it would be easier to just 'create' the money in question. This apparently is not acceptable. Desperate times, eh?

ET
Tomcat
Koan

Sir Koan, you are not a heretic and your view is not only welcome, it is very much needed and wanted (at least by me but I am sure I speak for others). I have gained much from your posts and frankly, I wish you would post more.

It bothers me that you would think your post is a heresy (dissent of a strongly held belief or practice).

Are we becoming a group of true believers that blindly follow a strong belief to the exclusion of other opinions or approaches?
SteveH
Computer not fixed but am back home on kid's...
Aristotle and Holtzman, holy cow dudes!~

awesome.

for Holtzman:

Brilliant anaylsis. Your timing suggests a few more years yet.

I see a few holes but maybe you covered and I just missed, but you seem to mention the large short position but don't account for it in your timing strategy.

You also seem to discount the gold for oil scenario of FOA/A. If you factored in their theory that two factions are head to head and that the Euro will be the only accepted payment for oil and with any repatriation of dollars for Euro, how will this change your timeline?


You mention these banks are missing lent gold but don't discuss the unintended consequences of this practice.

You appear to discuss a 2% growth of gold counter a 13% growth in fiat supply, but what of the simple anaylsis of total money divided by total gold available to deliver in payment for said money. Has not this ratio been knocked out of whack by the debt bubble? For example, in the 50's if the entire debt of the world and money supply was X divided by gold and it is now y divided by gold what would be the answer and is there a suprise awaiting us there?

Finally, I see this gold short and leasing issue coming to a head. At some point in the near to mid-term it will have to be dealt with. I see CB's trying to delay, but it sure seems like the dust under the rug is gunpowder and some old coot has lit his pipe and is about to throw the glowing-embered match stick near carpet's edge.

beesting
Lots of front page coverage opposing Gold sales.
http://www.barney.co.za/News perspectives from the front lines of the worlds top Gold producing country--South Africa.......beesting
beesting
USAGOLD gets top news coverage on recent report.
http://www.barney.co.za/news/jun99/goldus25.htmCongratulations are in order for USAGOLD as a daily report:"Let the short covering begin", gets major news coverage in South Africa........beesting
Aristotle
ET and CoBra(too)
CoBra, you are right that much of the petrodollars were recycled in the form of loans to many of the poorer countries that have certainly not been very successful paying them back. The Third World debt crisis can probably be chalked up to the wave of borrowing prompted by the Oil Crises more than any other single cause. As for your comments on the hedge funds, I simply don't know about their role as a means to patch a hemorrhaging system. It may be just as you say. My take has been that have sprung to life and exist because there are opportunities to be exploited on the fringes of the regulated financial sector occupied by typical finacial institutions. Motivated by greed and arrogance, patronized by those too desperate, reckless, or greedy not to. So while I haven't viewed them historically as part of the cure, I do see them today as contributing to the problem. An element of that is in Part 5.

I become a bit self-conscious when you say "sorry for the long post" when your posts are so short compared to some of mine. Should I take bold steps to pare them down? Does the length become maddening to some of you guys? Sorry. I'll see what I can do.

ET, I'm glad you brought up the issue of moving metal into the market. It reminded me of the reason an important element had to be folded into Part 4 of my commentary. I'm sure that up to this stage some people are asking themselves what is the point of a lot of this stuff. I can't promise that I will remember to make all the the necessary connections, so whereas I might fail by degree, at least the info has been presented so that others can see the connections for themselves.

The reason Aragorn spoke about Rotterdam specifically was to demonstrate an important point. The price for oil on May 14, 1979 was as posted by OPEC at $13.34 per barrel of oil to be delivered under arrangements of contracts. When these contracts fell into disarray by the unexpected shortage casued by the revolution in Iran, the oil was sought on the Rotterdam market, and the price one day later was more than double...$28. Two days later it was $34.

Let me rephrase (translate) that into terms that not only describe this oil market development, but that might allow for a new perspective to be gained on the Bank of England Gold auction. (Interestingly, Rotterdam is only 200 miles east of London, a stone's throw across the Straight of Dover.) Rephrase:
When these contracts for delivery of the product fell into disarray by a shortage casued by unanticipated events, the product was sought on the spot market, and the price became overnight more than double the posted contract price...

Another comment not to be lost was pointing out that rather than unloading this Gold via the pre-existing 'round-the-clock, 'round-the-world Gold market, the BoE has taken the effort to preannounce the sale and to make special auction arrangements for the sale. A new Gold market not as before?

As she lays in bed dreaming of Money, the tornado picks up Dorothy and her little dog, Toto, depositing them in a strange new place. "Golly, Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore." She finds herself in a market square, amidst a throng of midgets dodging this way and that to avoid being flattened under the footsteps of giants. In the center of the square is a Golden auction block and a sign that reads "Welcome to Rotterdam." How odd that these midgets here in The Netherlands all speak with British accents...

A bit more of this (I hope) will clear up in the next section.

Gold. "We're not in Kansas anymore." ---Aristotle
Gandalf the White
Steve's Ted Butler Post
WOWERS Steve!! --- The post by Ted Butler is what too many folk wished that they could say. --- That was the best ABX condemnation I have yet read. Mr. Munk may be selling real estate again soon, or residing in Leavenworth if he comes across the line.
<;-)
SteveH
Post Length
Aristotle,

You posts are not too long. They can only be too long when the gibberish happens we have seen but a few times. I believe there is some limit of length but don't let it be your thoughts that are the limit: let it be the program Mike uses to accept posts.
canamami
Ted Butler's Gold Eagle Editorial
Re the above editorial, posted by SteveH. Has anyone copied it to the CFTC? Perhaps all the posters/lurkers here should do so, to create some grassroots demand and presuure for action. It would also make sense to send it to your senator or congressperson, as well as the members of the appropriate Senate/House Committee chairpersons and members. Also, sending it to the senators and congresspeople from Nevada and other gold states would be useful. Finally, copy it to the business news department or section of your local newspaper and media. Some political parties in the past have used the so-called provincial or hinterland strategy. When the big city papers and media are against you, go to the papers and media outside the powerful centres - to the small cities, the supply areas or to big cities that presently don't have cultural or media clout. In a sense, encircle and choke your target to death, if direct assaults aren't working. In the US, this could mean going not just to small town media/papers, but to the big city papers/media in the South and the West, who may not yet have the clout of cities like New York or Washington. Just some suggestions. The same goes to those of us outside the US - go to our politicians and media, and do what we can. It is said that "gold is a political metal" - well, let's get political, and not just on the Net. The Net is non-pareil in terms of communicating information and organizing, but at some stage entry into the actual political area and the sources of governmental (and perhaps judicial) power is necessary.
canamami
Further Ideas
First, I apologize for a typo in my previous post - it should be "pressure", not "presuure".

One further option something like GATA may wish to consider is a public law action, rather than a private anti-trust class action (which is very complex, and probably unworkable in this context, in my off-the-top-of-my-head-humble-opinion). In other words, if the CFTC isn't enforcing the law, one can seek a writ of mandamus to compel it to fulfil its duties (again, quite complex, and a US lawyer would have to examine these options, but probably more straightforward than a private class-action suit). If it is illegal for the Fed or any other public/governmental body to engage in certain actions, then a writ of prohibition could be sought to prevent a recurrence of these activities. Even if the public body can defend its actions legally, information could be divulged which would assist in the political battle. This thing is multi-faceted, and a variety of approaches can be used.
SteveH
canamami
I sent a copy to the CFTC. Good read, wasn't it?

Tomcat
What is it going to take for glod to go up?

Date: Sun Jun 27 1999 09:39
jims (Increasing calls for major gold rally) ID#252391:
Copyright � 1999 jims/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

More and more gold enthusiasts are calling for a great bull run in gold.

Now lets see, since 1996 haven't heard that before.... I will point out to those so certain that the price is about to explode that is but a few dollars from 20 year lows. From Kaplan to Gambler to Murphy to Claudeke's borker we have calls for gold to ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. It is interesting to note however as the days pass how the upside projection targes seem to come down. Gold did not go to $265 has some had perdicted on Friday- it dropped after two or three days of fractional gains..

There has to be a fundlemental change for gold to rise. The dollar has to weaken, the central banks have to stop leasing gold and start calling it in, miners have to stop forward selling, and the shorts have to start covering while the commercials, everybody including the shoeshine boy
knows are long, have to stay long. If the price of gold rises and the shorts cover and the commercials sell - we got nothing . The commericals have to hold those longs - something they did not do last time a few months ago----remember they sold out REAL FAST.

A few fundlemental things have to change - that's the bottom line. Gold won't rally $50 buck just because its gone down for 20 years. There has to be fundlemental change in the environment. We may not see it at first but it has to be there and it has to be significant. So far all we have
is more Central Banks selling.
SteveH
Holtzman
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/parks062899.htmlQuoted from above:

"Fifty years of empirical evidence confirms that removing the gold constraint allows the banking system to greatly expand: The amount of money in the U.S. in 1946 was about $150 billion. As can be seen from Figure 1 below, after the last remaining tie to gold was severed in 1971, money creation exploded to more than $6 trillion. Of that, roughly $500 billion was created by the Federal Reserve. The balance, about $5.5 trillion, was created by commercial banks."

Based on this, let's assume 120,000 tons of gold in 1946 and 132,000 tons now (for argument's sake).

Formula:

Dollars available for Gold = DG
G=Gold in tons.
$=Dollars

DG=$/g (this is amount of dollars divided by amount of gold. This represents dollars that could be used to buy all gold ever mined)

1946

DG=150B/120000
DG=1,250,000

1998
DG=6T/132000
DG=45,454,545

DG (1998)/DG (1946)= 36

Conclusion: There are 36 times more dollars available today to purchase the entire world hoard of gold than in 1946. If gold was $35 (artifical official price) in 1946 then gold should be roughly $1272 today.



tlc
greenspans testimony 17 jun 99
Can anyone help me find AG testimony to congress on 17 jun 99?
canamami
Reply to SteveH #8104
SteveH,

Good to see you have access to the Net again. One of the stock boards you frequent is dying in your absence.

Ted Butler's piece was excellent. I also looked at some of his other postings, which also were excellent. Is Butler an investment guru, or just a private investor who likes to post on the Net?

It's good to hear that you copied it to the CFTC. Nothing short of political action will save gold in the short-term, or perhaps even medium-term. As the perhaps wrongfully maligned Lord Keynes said "In the long term, we're all dead". For those of us in gold stocks, "long term" may be about as good as "never".
CoBra(too)
@Aristotle
Dear Aristotle,
First I thank you for your response.
Secondly, please don't let my excuses for long posts discourage, one of the most knowledeable knights of this round table. I have to make amends, since my grasp of the common languge here is probably faulty at best. Which brings me to your hedge fund question!
My feeling is and was`that in view of the existing problems inherent with loans of private banks re. petro dollars in the 70's, where large chunks were not performing - the hedge funds were seen as way to obscure immediate write offs or even default requirements by money center banks. The inherent leverage created by these, as you stated "unregulated" fringe markets, have allowed banks to stay ("covert")solvent, but also created the problem of unsecured
overleveraging of EVEN the fractional money and currency systems. The "FRINGE Derivative markets", as it becomes obvious, have now taken center stage and are becoming an inherent risk to the system by themselves. Orange County, Barings and LTCM have been (dire?) warnings of the potential
(mega-)disaster in the virtual (un-)reality of futures markets, which seem to exist only to unhedge from reality.
Please Ari go on - I am more than impressed by your scenario and hope to be able to learn more from Part V today and I do feel you will have to add Part VI, which we'll be more than looking forward to - take your time and any required space (IMHO) will more than happily, I trust, be provided by our mutual host.
With my sincere respect to you, MK and all posters at this great site - CoBra(too)- I wish I would have chosen another
handle - (don't get me wrong - I'm just a student of A&FOA, but feeling their attitude is close to the mark)-
It is only WHEN now and not IF anymore, as we seekers of true money will have our day - Salutations ....
Peter Asher
Steve
The numbers you posted from the Gold Eagle article bring up the point that I've been hammering away at since October. As quoted "If gold was $35 (artificial official price) in 1946 then gold should be roughly $1272 today."

That $1272 would also be an "Artificial official price." However in 1946 I believe the $35 was much more in line with the cost of mining than the $1272 would be today. Therefore, by the degree to which the official price of gold exceeded its probable free market price, it would be "Fiat" money.

$1272 would be the price based on Governmental decree and held in place by peoples 'faith' in that decree. If the "Good faith of the USG, or the people of the USA, were no longer behind that Gold based fiat, then the 'value' of gold would revert back to the market place price.

This would of course be better than a paper fiat Dollar, which would revert to Zero.
USAGOLD
Note to Cobra(too)...And a News & Views Sneak Preview
You can change your handle. Just e-mail me and we will send another code. I don't think any of the good knights or ladies seated here would object. We shall christen you with a new handle befitting your developing role at this Table Round. Ah..... the elegance and flexibility of the Internet.

Just finished the July newsletter. A taste herein for all to savor:

A ghost of bull market's past, the fly-leaf quote from a Wall Street classic written by John Brooks entitled "Once in Golconda" (1969) reads: "Golconda, now a ruin, was a city in southeastern India where, according to legend, everyone who passed through go rich. A similar legend attached to Wall Street between the wars."................As we all know the 1920's Wall Street "Golconda" ultimately went very badly and it is interesting how many of the attitudes that prevailed in the 1920s toward investments prevail today, including the attitude toward gold. After the stock boom that lasted right up until October, 1929 -- 70 years ago -- currency speculators and investors all over the world began to redeem paper dollars for gold fearing that Roosevelt would devalue the dollar "causing the Treasury to lose gold at a frightful rate. Meanwhile ordinary citizens came to fear with good reason, for the safety of their bank deposits. By the hundreds of thousands, they lined up to make withdrawals" in gold. "Gold coins," continues Brooks, "vanished into private hoards virtually down to the last five dollar gold piece." As reported here consistently, the demand for gold coin even as you read this newsletter continues to run at unprecedented levels for a number of reasons, but two stand out: Y2K and concerns about Currency Debasement. Perhaps the money supply figures alluded to earlier** should serve as warning. We continue to recommend that those who wish to transfer some of their own currency holdings to gold, do so in a deliberate, consistent and timely fashion. It is better to be a months early than a moment late.......

** While we are in a statistical mood, please consider the fact that the Federal Reserve has boosted the U.S. money supply by 9% and over a half a trillion dollars over the past 12 months alone. Adrian van Eck, our favorite Fed watcher, says "As far as we know, this is the biggest one year increase in money supply ever recorded in our Federal Republic's 210 year history." Please see graph above
USAGOLD
Consideration....
Please allow for textual errors, typos, grammaticals etc. as George Cooper, my esteemed and trusted technical editor, has not had a chance to review this yet.
Aristotle
For tlc -- Testimony of Chairman Alan Greenspan, June 17, 1999
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/testimony/1999/19990617.htmMonetary policy and the economic outlook--Before the Joint Economic Committee, U.S. Congress
(Some excerpts. Click the link for the whole thing.)

As recent experience attests, a prolonged period of price stability does help to foster economic prosperity. But, as we have also observed over recent years, as have others in times past, such a benign economic environment can induce investors to take on more risk and drive asset prices to unsustainable levels. This can occur when investors implicitly project rising prosperity further into the future than can reasonably be supported. By 1997, for example, measures of risk had fallen to historic lows as businesspeople, having experienced years of continuous good times, assumed, not unreasonably, that the most likely forecast was more of the same.

The Asian crisis, and especially the Russian devaluation and debt moratorium of August 1998, brought the inevitable rude awakening. In the ensuing weeks, financial markets in the United States virtually seized-up, risk premiums soared, and for a period sellers of even investment grade bonds had difficulty finding buyers. The Federal Reserve responded with a three step reduction in the federal funds rate totaling 75 basis points.

Market strains receded--whether as a consequence of our actions or of other forces--and yield spreads have since fallen but not all the way back to their unduly thin levels of last summer.
The American economy has retained its momentum and emerging economies in Asia and Latin America are clearly on firmer footing, though in some cases their turnarounds appear fragile. The recovery of financial markets, viewed in isolation, would have suggested that at least part of the emergency injection of liquidity, and the associated 75 basis point decline in the funds rate, ceased to be necessary. But, with wage growth and price inflation declining by a number of measures earlier this year, and productivity evidently still accelerating--thereby keeping inflation in check--we chose to maintain the lower level of the funds rate.
While this stellar noninflationary economic expansion still appears remarkably stress free on the surface, there are developing imbalances that give us pause and raise the question: Do these imbalances place our economic expansion at risk?

[...] Even if this period of rapid expansion of capital gains comes to an end shortly, there remains a substantial amount in the pipeline to support outsized increases in consumption for many months into the future. Of course, a dramatic contraction in equity market prices would greatly reduce this backlog of extra spending.

[...] Someday, of course, the expansion will end; human nature has exhibited a tendency to excess through the generations with the inevitable economic hangover. There is nothing in our economic data series to suggest that this propensity has changed. It is the job of economic policymakers to mitigate the fallout when it occurs, and, hopefully, ease the transition to the next expansion.
koan
stock options - big wheel turning a little wheel
Stock options are tricky, but they can be the best tool for metals speculation. We are at or very near a bottom in S and G - best time for options. #1 Free lunch or at least a blue plate special: Hypothetical: Your metal stock is $10. The strike price is $14. Time 3 years. Price of stock option$1.50 to $2, say $2.00. It is easy to see the leverage on the up side - 5 to 1. But what is overlooked at times is that the options can be safer than stock on the down side. Lets say the stock then falls to $6.00 , 3 months later. If you had bought the stock you would have lost $4. But the option would probably only lose .5o to a dollar because it still has leverage value and time value and in that time period you should have lost very little time value. Conclusion: at times, options are better than stock both for upside leverage and to guard against a downturn. #2 Where one should buy a stock option is important to know. I perfer to buy long term options just around the money (strike price). Using the above criteria if the stock goes up, as the stock option gets closer to $14 it will actually start moving more in tandem with the stock. Options will often slow as they move through the money and then pick up speed again. Options are tricky, and one should study them carefully, because a person can also lose a lot of money if they do not understand them. But I have made the most money using them and have been increasingly buying quality long terms metal options over the last two weeks. There are sites that offer option chains where one can study how different dates and different strike prices influence price. I hope this info is useful to someone, that is the spirit in which it is being presented. I remember how hard it was for me in the old days to learn these things. too much trial and error.
Technician
Is this really the week?
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.htmlI have done a bit of work this weekend looking at $, currencies & gold. As a "tea leaf reader" the results seem so interesting that I decided to post on USAgold and Eagle. Now I wish I had positions in DM and gold for tomorrow morning. My best call is anything from mildy bullish to wildly bullish this week for gold, currencies, crude, (copper).
I have three charts available to look at on my web site. CSI continuous charts for gold, $ and DDM. My primary indicators are presented with brief explanation of their purpose and what I think I am seeing. Without the forum there are unexplained aberrations but with my "forum" knowledge they make perfect sense. Being cognizant of IMF and BOE intervention plus major currency interventions is the keystone in interpreting my charts. In my opinion, $ has topped, gold bottomed and the possibility exists for a very interesting week.
http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.html
USAGOLD
Peter...
A $1272 price if achieved would allow the mines to bring the price back to supply/demand equilibrium extant the gold carry trade. The price would then drop from $1272 if equilibrium could be achieved at that price level and production brought on line.

It is interesting to note the report from Standard Bank of London on Friday that refiners are beginning again to experience supply shortages -- shortages that are moving down the line as many in the industry await the appearance of the BOE gold. I would expect that the next bit of news we will get is that bullion coin premiums have risen again. Consider this: What, if as some are predicting, the BOE gold doesn't see the light of day given the scenario already developing?

It is also interesting to watch this whole situation with gold unfold just as James Turk predicted it would months ago through the use of Austrian modelling. If a market price is restricted artificially (by whatever means) sooner or later shortages begin to crop up as suppliers are driven to holding back supplies and the lower price encourages consumption. This rule of thumb bedevils the statist planners on Wall Street and in Washington who must be infuriated that they can control the price (by whatever machination) but not the supply and demand for the metal. For them it is a lost cause, but they continue because they have to or their whole position blows up in their hands. I still think that once gold escapes their clutches we are looking at multiples of the current price. In 1974 gold achieved near $200 after being held to $35 for at least a decade by the London Gold Pool -- a similar trajectory would put gold at $1500 IN THE FIRST WAVE.
USAGOLD
Misc....
Aristotle...I would like to complement you on an important addition to the discussion at this esteemed Table. May the series continue for the benefit of all...

Steve....Good to have you back.
tlc
AG testimony
Aristotle thankyou for directing me to AG's testimony I am trying to convince a relative to take some money out of the stock market and thought the testimony might help.
tlc
AG testimony
Aristotle thankyou for directing me to AG's testimony I am trying to convince a relative to take some money out of the stock market and thought the testimony might help.
Peter Asher
Michael
What I was trying to stress on my post # 1810 before, was that the often brought up consideration that the price of gold "Should" equal the total dollars outstanding divided by the total gold holdings, would be an act of "Fiat decree". Left to the eventual 'reckoning' of the free market, the Price could be lower or higher than that $1272.

Regarding your >> In 1974 gold achieved near $200 after being held to $35 for at least a decade
by the London Gold Pool -- a similar trajectory would put gold at $1500 IN THE FIRST
WAVE. << What was the cost of production at that time? The most probable "trajectory", if history were to repeat itself would be; $200/Cst. of prdctn.1974 = ?POG/Cst. of prdctn. 1999. Or rephrased: ?POG = 200 X COP99/COP74.

Pardon my algebraic language, I can't seem to get it out in plain English at the moment.
USAGOLD
By Jove, Peter....
I think your formula works! Though I haven't yet figured out why it works. I'm impressed.
Peter Asher
Michael !! What are the Numbers?
Don't keep us in mystery here! What WAS the cost of production in 1974????
SteveH
Save the USA buy Gold today!
Have any of you heard the above slogan? Heard it the other day.

Along with that came the advice, "Every US citizen should vote for backing dollars with gold, not air, by buying at least one gold coin, whatever they an afford. This will tell Congress better than any letter, don't sell IMF gold, don't sell any gold, buy more."

I guess the logic is to vote with gold, send a message loud and clear that too much paper and not enough backing.

Canamami, don't know Ted, nor what he does. Definitely hits the bone good though. Board you mention seems to have had lots of posts, threw one out there though.
SteveH
Did this get posted?

Le Metropole members,

Perhaps, enough, really is enough for the time being.

It would appear that the gold market manipulators are
going to let the prise rise for a bit here going into the
British auction. The gold price has dropped so much it
is embarassing the British in a major league way, therefore
the word is out that the price should go up for now.

One used to say the "smart" money is gong long. Now our
camp says the "colluding" money is going long.

Yesterday, on the break, Goldman Sachs was a massive buyer
on the lows.

We now understand they are buying calls and are bidding up
the cash market this morning. The bearish sales pitch of
the "manipulation crowd" most likely drew in some sort of
official sector selling these past few weeks. We now
believe that selling is over and that is part of the reason
Goldman Sachs is bidding.

Everyone knows the market is very oversold technically. Now
that the manipulators have "deigned" that the market should
rise to take some of the heat off the British, it will most
likely to so.

Thus, we should get a good pop in the bullion price and in
the senior gold shares. Look for a $15 to $20 pop as the
big boys run in the short specs once again.

$275 to $280 gold is still a sorry sight, but we have to
start somewhere.

We continue to alert Cafe members that silver could
explode at any time. $9.78 our year end target with any
kind of relief in the gold market.

Have a nice day,

Midas du Metropole









SteveH
August Gold....
now $260.80.
USAGOLD
Peter...
I just guessed at $50 to see if the formula had any theoretical value. If one were to get serious about it, you'd have some work ahead of you. The mining industry uses two different cost figures which confuses the matter. I've never sold stocks so I never pursued those statistics. Perhaps some of the stock brokers could give you some hard figures. I don't have them off the top of my head.
searching
Asset Mix
What mix, would you Knights recommend, of assets that the average person should have considering the current state of affairs? cash, gold, bonds, stocks, and lets throw in that the average person has a 401k which he can not cash in and which does not have any gold mining options. I get asked this question a lot and I know that I am not qualified to answer.
ET
Turk
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/turk062899.html
This 'rumor' has been floating around about as long as I can remember. There was another piece posted some months back about this Ft. Knox gold deficit. Considering the state of affairs in Washington today, nothing would surprise me, but this would take the cake.

ET
Aristotle
An asset mix for Sir searching
A fellow knight steered me to look into The Baltic Banking Group, and I have been impressed with the knowledge and philosophy found there. The BBB recommends a person to divide their wealth into equal thirds, with one third as Gold metal, one third as real estate property, and one third invested in your own business or field of expertise.

I guess depending upon your thoughts on the real estate market or how that element fits with your lifestyle, that third would probably be the starting point for some scrutiny on give or take. My personal thoughts on the Gold portion is that you will probably intuitively know when you have enough Gold at any given point in time when you reach the appropriate level. But then, this mix is slanted toward European investors, so some variation may be appropriate for U.S. residents. Personally, I think it's a decent starting point, but everyone's situation is unique. However, your "uniqueness" can be expressed in the type of property you own and in your area of expertise.

Thanks for the excuse for a diversion. Gotta get back to putting the wraps on the project...
The Stranger
searching
Dear searching:
The answer to your question depends on the person. If we are talking about someone who has a long time to go before retirement and doesn't yet have a large account, the answer is easy. Put everything in the fund with the highest
long term track record. These records should be available to you in your employer's retirement plan materials. THEN - sit back and hope the stock market goes down for awhile. This may sound flip, but remember, you are still buying shares from every paycheck and you want to get them cheaply in the early years if possible.

For people with larger accounts and less time before retirement, the answer is a bit more difficult. It depends, in part, on how they have their other monies invested, assuming there are other monies. However, for all but those who will soon (within ten years) be needing every nickel they have accumulated, a stock fund is still the best bet. They may wish to choose a so-called "value fund", one that invests in stocks that are presently out of favor. Such stocks sometimes have less risk than stocks which are all the rage. I would suggest that people in this category choose such a fund that invests internationally, if one is available.

For those who are close to retiring, do not have a large account and have little or no other funds to fall back on, I would suggest they pick a savings vehicle. Otherwise, the first bad month they experience, they are apt to bail out at the worst time. They simply cannot afford the risk.

For those who wish they could buy PM based investments but are not given the option, consider opening an IRA.
It is a popular misconception that physical Gold is not allowed in IRA accounts. Perhaps this is because it wasn't for a long time. But it is now.

It may be heresy to say this here, but gold has a worse long term record than any other traditional asset category, by far. So, while those who wish to do so can certainly buy Gold Eagles in their IRAs, for example, they should do so only if they plan to be flexible about selling when the time comes.

Aside from the Stranger: Having just maligned gold, I hasten to add that I am heavily committed to it at the moment. Remember, EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY! But, when advising someone on their retirement plan, a whole lifetime is in question. For lifetimes, nothing beats the stock market, period.
MOZ
WE NEED TO DEVELOPE GOLD STRATERGIES TO WIN!
I dont know if its monday blues here in Australia,but after reading the post on Barrick Gold,I despair at this corrupt system we have got.The hedge funds and goverments have been playing us for suckers for too long and we have not developed any decent stratergies to combat what has been occuring.The fat cats sell gold short,drive the price down,the suckers buy,the fat cats make a profit,gold goes up a little and then the fat cats sell it short again,etc,etc.It takes two to tango,like yin and yang,if one side withdraws the other can't function.In many ways if we all took our cricket bats home and refused to play in the current system,let the pog collapse,then out of the corruption something decent might be born.I think commentators like Midas,Kaplan,etc need to look at their role in this current situation,because in telling us to buy are they not just helping the fat cats make more money out of us suckers.I think we gold followers need to learn a few tricks off the internet daytraders.In Australia,they buy select small companies (usually gold miners that have gone bankcrupt and turned into internets)
,which the large institutions dont touch,because they are small fry.Through the medium of the internet forums these small companies are analysed and then bought,because they are small,the share price reacts favourably and then the technical analysis traders jump in because the charts look favourable.Finally the large institutions buy in because the value of the company has increased significantly.Midas talks about Shaka Zulu,but I think we need to look at the Vietcong,they won the most technologically advanced country in the world by digging a network of tunnels in the jungle,from which they could mount suprise ambushes and then melt away completely.The trouble is I don't know enough about the vast aray of gold investments,puts,calls,the various types of gold leasing and selling,etc,etc.I do know about shares though and may I suggest that Barrick Gold goes on the BLACK LIST ,tell every body to sell their shares in that company and don't buy any more shares in it.In buying shares in this company we are just perpetuating the current hedging regime and harming ourselves.There must be plenty of low cost producers,that are well managed,and that only participate in ligitimate hedging.In Australia,one such company is Delta Gold.Just as the enviromentalists won in Alaska by boycotting the company responsible for the oil spill,we can win if we develope the right stratergies.Surely there are enough talented people that participate in this forum ,that can analyse the weaknesses of the players currently controlling the current gold system,and let the rest of us know what stratergies to pursue in order to defeat them.Go Gold.Moz
Chris Powell
Martin Armstrong disputes GATA on manipulation
http://www.egroups.com/group/gata/143.html?A reply will be forthcoming.
ET
Washington DC story
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/longterm/y2k/y2k.htm
Here is the Washington Post story concerning Washington DC's effort at y2k remediation. Does this have a hint of panic about it?

ET


District Prepares for Y2K System Failures

By Eric Lipton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 28, 1999; Page A1

The District government, recognizing that its year 2000 repair program
likely
will not be completed on time, is planning a massive New Year's Eve
mobilization of emergency personnel and other staff to ensure that critical
city services are not interrupted if computer systems fail.

Police will be stationed at more than 120 locations across the city,
working
12-hour shifts, to take walk-in requests for emergency services. Twenty-one
"warming centers," each supplied with food, water and cots, will open.
School
crossing guards will be on call, ready to replace traffic lights at major
intersections. And D.C. General Hospital will have extra staff members � as
many as 175 � on site.

These are just a few of the 88 contingency and emergency plans the District
is
feverishly working to put in place by the end of the year. Similar efforts
are
underway across the United States among governments and private companies,
but
in the District, officials have acknowledged the city is so far behind on
its
Y2K fix that it may have to rely on some of these "work-around" techniques.

"Because we began late, there may be things that suffer an interruption
that we
did not completely get to," said D.C. Chief Technology Officer Suzanne J.
Peck.
"Within our agencies ... in some function, a handful may fail temporarily."

Officials are confident that most of these plans � even those that will be
put
into effect regardless of any system failure � will not be needed, and that
even in the District, Y2K will be one of the century's most hyped
nonevents.

City officials want to convince the public that the new year will begin in
the
nation's capital without chaos no matter what happens with D.C. operations
or
outside services such as telephone, gas and electricity.

"Our intent is not to alarm people, but put people at ease that things are
under control," Mayor Anthony A. Williams (D) said yesterday. "We are going
to
have this city work for people."

Added Cmdr. David B. McDonald, the supervisor of police Y2K planning: "We
want
to reassure the residents and visitors to the District that even if
Armageddon
comes, we will assist and protect the public."

The D.C. Council will be briefed on the public safety contingency plans at
an
oversight hearing this morning.

The District's own assessment of its progress in making year 2000 fixes
demonstrates the need for such planning: With six months left in the year,
only
41 percent of the District's 336 major computer systems have been fixed.
The
rest are scheduled to be repaired and tested by the end of October.

Of the city's 73 agencies, 19 � including key departments such as Health,
Housing and Community Development; Tax and Revenue; Child and Family
Services;
and Public Works � are not even halfway done with their year 2000 repairs
and
planning.

Williams said he is "not at all surprised" that so much work remains, given
the
city's late start on addressing the Y2K problem. But he added that he is
reasonably comfortable with the status of the city's Y2K repair efforts and
has
the impression that the District is about even with other major cities,
saying
the city may be understating its "readiness."

Virginia and Maryland, by comparison, say their government systems are
virtually Y2K-proof, and while they also have contingency plans, they are
more
confident that they won't have to use them.

The year 2000 computer glitch, popularly known as Y2K, stems from the use
in
many computer systems of two-digit date fields, leading many machines to
interpret "00" as 1900, not 2000. This could cause systems to transmit bad
data, malfunction or crash.

The District's late start is largely to blame for its lagging effort. While
Maryland and Virginia began working on the problem several years ago, the
District waited until last summer. Recognizing the danger of a catastrophic
failure in the city, Congress gave the District $62 million in emergency
funding this year to accelerate the work. But even with an army of more
than
300 consultants at work � most under a $76 million contract with IBM Corp.

success is far from assured.

The struggle at D.C. General Hospital illustrates the challenge. D.C.
General
and its related health care divisions are about 48 percent "ready,"
according
to ratings released Wednesday by the District's year 2000 program.

The hospital's mainframe computer system � which handles medical records,
patient accounts, budgeting, laboratory data, patient registration and
other
hospital operations � will falter at year's end unless several million
dollars
in repairs are made.

The city is rushing to install a new computer system, but the first phase
is
not scheduled to be operating until mid-September. Officials are debating
whether to repair the old computer in case the new one is not ready.

And that is only the beginning.

An estimated 80 percent of the 1,000 pagers assigned to staff at D.C.
General
and other divisions of the city's hospital and health care network are not
Y2K
compatible. At the start of June, the city had not issued a purchase order
to
buy replacements.

Each of the hospital's four ultrasound machines and 21 defibrillators �
used to
reestablish a regular heartbeat-is not Y2K compliant, although replacements
are
on order. And the critical-care monitoring system in the intensive-care
unit
also must be replaced.

"You can't have an emergency room without a defibrillator. You can't have
an
intensive-care unit without monitors," said William D. Wild, senior vice
president for compliance at D.C. General.

Given all this uncertainty � and fewer than 190 days before the end of the
year
� D.C. General administrators and staff members are spending hundreds of
hours
preparing backup plans.

The 250-bed hospital, which served 51,237 in its emergency room last year
and
80,000 in its hospital clinics, is arranging to have 50 temporary workers
available to hand-process records and other tasks if computers fail. As
many as
124 employees � including nurses, doctors and financial staff members � may
be
asked to stay overnight on New Year's Eve, Wild said.

An extra 30 to 60 days' worth of pharmaceuticals is being ordered, and up
to 90
days' worth of other basic supplies � from bottled water to bandages � is
being
purchased. The cost to the city just for the contingency planning,
excluding
the basic Y2K repairs, is about $4 million.

Even at agencies where year 2000 repairs are farther along, extensive
contingency planning is underway. The broadest effort involves emergency
services, where the plans are largely directed at anticipating failure of
outside utilities such as electricity and telephone � all extremely
unlikely.

"The phone company says they are 98 percent certain it won't go down. The
power
companies say they are 99 percent certain everything will work," McDonald
said.
"But if that 2 percent and 1 percent cross, we need to be prepared."

Every officer in the city's 3,600-person police force will work 12-hour
shifts
during the New Year's weekend. Starting about 10:30 p.m. on New Year's Eve,
the
police department will deploy two-person teams to 120 locations across the
District, including fire stations, convenience stores and fast-food
restaurants.

Each officer will have a radio, and each of the 10 antenna sites for the
radio
system will have a backup generator. The city's 150 school crossing guards
will
learn how to handle traffic if lights go out. Staff is prepared to process
crime reports and bookings by hand.

"We can't say, 'Sorry, Mr. Burglar, we can't book you today. Why don't you
come
back tomorrow?' " McDonald said.

At the Fire and Emergency Medical Services Department, leave time is being
restricted for the 1,763-member staff between Dec. 15 and Jan. 15. Crews on
the
16 ladder trucks are being given the tools and training to perform elevator
rescues, supplementing the city's three regular rescue squads.

Backup to the city's computer-aided dispatch system is ready: thousands of
3-by-5 cards detailing which trucks to send depending on the address of a
call.
Fire trucks and ambulances already have been checked.

The city's Emergency Operations Center will be in gear before New Year's
Eve,
staffed by the public-safety-related agencies, including the Red Cross and
the
National Guard. All 21 warming centers, most at city schools, will be open
New
Year's Eve.

"If need be, people who go to these centers will be warm. They will have
somewhere to sleep and something to eat," Emergency Management Program
Officer
Barbara Childs said.

The contingency planning extends far beyond the central emergency agencies.

The D.C. Water and Sewer Authority, for example, will spend more than $1
million to rent several locomotive-size generators to ensure that water
will
flow if the electricity goes out.

The Public Works Department will ensure that the city has 87,000 gallons of
vehicle fuel available, double the normal supply. Extra truck parts, backup
generators and other supplies also are on order. Plans have even been made
for
trash collection crews (they would work day and night), tree maintenance
(complaints would be taken at the Reeves Municipal Center on 14th Street
NW)
and rat patrol (private exterminators would be used).

Officials are urging residents to prepare for the new year as well,
stocking up
on food, fuel, bottled water and other supplies as they would for a winter
storm.

Jack L. Brock Jr., a U.S. General Accounting Office computer expert who
described the city's Y2K outlook in February as "bleak," said last week
that
while he is reassured the city is making contingency plans, it must be able
to
implement them.

"They can't just be paper plans," said Brock, whose office is about to
start
another review of the District's Y2K status for Congress. "They have to do
enough testing and validation to be confident that they will work."

Interim City Administrator Norman Dong said Williams is committed to
ensuring
that the plans work. To date, 38 of the 88 contingency plans are in draft
or
final form. From July until September, 23 mission-critical city agencies
will
hold mock drills.

"Our hope and expectation is that it will be business as usual," Dong said.
"But we are taking nothing for granted. We want to make sure we are
covered,
that no matter what happens, we are prepared."


� 1999 The Washington Post Company








Canuck
Interest rate announcement
Can someone tell me when A.G. informs us of the interest rate adjustment? I heard 2:15(eastern time) Wednesday, June
30. Please confirm.

Thanks.
SteveH
August gold up now...
$261.70.

from fleckenstein:

"Get a life... Housing prices are exploding and labor is as tight as hell. It if weren't for the fact that everyone's getting paid in stock options, wage rates and labor would be ratcheting up. Inflation is picking back up even in the completely manipulated government statistics. If the Fed waits until inflation is reported in the statistics, it will have a gigantic problem. The inflation has been going on in the stock market for a long time, and now it's so out of control it's even leaking into the real economy.

A rate hike won't stop us from swinging into recession in a heartbeat once the stock market cracks, but for anyone to think that the Fed is going to get away with just 25 basis points is absurd, because 25 basis points is not going to change anything. It might tip over the psychology in the stock market, in which case it will be enough, but in the absence of that, why should anybody really care if the Fed takes back a stinking 25 basis points?"

Technician
Small risk
I am buying Aug. gold at opening today. $100 to $200 risk per contract. But if I can catch the trend much more on upside.
Should not have to give it much room on downside.
Technician
DM buy
Bought DM this morning. Low risk, End of day will tell.
USAGOLD
Daily Gold Market Report: "Market More Inclined to Test Upside"
MARKET REPORT(6/28/99): Gold showed some signs of life this morning -- at one
point trading $1.20 higher -- with investment markets across the boards girding up for this
week's Federal Reserve Open Market Committee meeting. Most market observers say the
Fed will raise rates a quarter point; some are saying a half. The decision is expected to be
announced Wednesday the day many Americans will begin making preparations for the
long Fourth of July weekend/getaway.

Subsequently, don't forget, the Bank of England steps to the plate July 6 with its first gold
auction at which many unanswered questions are likely to find at least the beginnings of
resolution. Reuters London offers this assessment of the BOE situation from Kamal Naqvi
of British based Macquarie Equities: "Prices have not fallen as low as once seemed possible
prior to the first UK 25-tonne gold auction and the market now seems more inclined to test
the upside. We are currently expecting an auction price of $265.00 per ounce but would not
be surprised if the market attempts higher in the interim."

In the 1970s when both the United States and the International Monetary Fund auctioned
gold the price rose throughout the liquidation. Many attribute the strong bidding at the sales
as the primary motivator for the bull market in gold that became one of the defining financial
events of that decade. Back to this morning's Reuters: "Traders have suggested a successful
auction could spark short covering and lift prices from near 20-year lows by flushing out
investment funds holding large short positions. Data released late on Friday by the U.S.
Commodity Futures Trading Commission put net non-commercial futures positions in
COMEX gold at nearly 8.5 million ounces short." The optimism is based on the fact that
short positions at some point need to be covered in order for the holder of that position to
reap a profit -- unless of course the holder of that position doesn't mind if the option expires
worthless. As we said in the June issue of News & Views:

This is the time of year when thoughts turn to summertime pleasures -- tying the
perfect fly, grooving the swing, getting the boat on the water, barbecues and picnics,
family and friends. Most years we encourage our friends and readers to kick back, let the
markets and world events take a back seat, and let the summer flow. This year we are
counseling caution. There is much in the wind and here's where we get back to our Five
Horsemen -- Y2K, euro introduction, the Asian contagion, the over-valued stock market
and rising oil. This is a year to put one foot in the affairs of summer, another in the
affairs of financial markets and attend to both. Judging from the discussions I have had
with Centennial clientele, most are already thinking along these lines. For those
counting on an easy, carefree summer this year, events might might shake the reverie.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
TownCrier
Rubin urges Congress to approve IMF gold sales
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/qz.htmlAgain with this?? Seems like there might be an air of desperation.
TownCrier
Rubin urges quick U.S. Senate vote on Summers
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/q0.htmlRubin's desire to exit by July 4 gets him down the road before the BoE auction on July 6. He doesn't want any delay in the confirmation to postpone his scheduled July 4 departure. Does he know something, or does he simply want to sleep late on the 5th?
TownCrier
Rubin sees low inflation ahead for U.S. economy
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/qw.htmlDespite attempts at ambiguity, Treasury Secretary Rubin seems to beleive an economic slowdown is in the cards.
TownCrier
Rubin stands by strong dollar policy, prods Japan
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/qu.htmlRubin warns of U.S. trade deficit being problemmatic, and urges Japan to start shopping.
TownCrier
Clinton proposes paying off U.S. debt by 2015
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/of.htmlCan you believe this nonsense? You can't pay off debt with debt, especially when interest requires more repaid than borrowed. Who will be left holding the bag? Thoughts, anyone?
TownCrier
U.S. consumer spending up in May, savings hit low
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/ry.html"With savings being withdrawn at a faster pace than ever before, consumers likely dipped into past gains from sources such as rising stock prices and equity in their homes to support their spending habits."

Does anyone think this spells trouble for the sustainability of the stock market bubble?
TownCrier
A look at the tea leaves to start the week...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/rl.htmlMost IMM currency futures lower early, yen higher
Everyone seems to be awaiting the FOMC decision.
Richard, Oregon
URLs
Would someone list the urls (website addresses) for the house and senate please. I'd like them both so as to enable myself to write my elected officials often.
TownCrier
The Senate
http://www.senate.gov/As requested, Sir Richard.
Broken Tee
response to TownCrier post 8143
It would seem this is nothing more than a lame duck trying to tell the public what they want to hear.
TownCrier
The House of Representatives
Richard, Oregon
Tanks!
Thanks for your feedback soo quick. Off to work!
Aristotle
Apologies to the small number that held their breath for Part 5
Family matters forced a delay, but I'm getting back up to speed. Delivery today looks to be in the cards.

Did anyone catch J.P. McEnroe's return to Wimbledon action on Court One--mixed doubles with Steffi Graf? What a GOLDen moment! (Sorry for the off-topic, MK.)
TownCrier
Graf and McEnroe: Comedy Act Central
http://www.wimbledon.org/wim/news.nsf/WebNewsByDate/970FBCB55F4400148525679C00070C0B.htmlAlright, Ari, you made me look into it. It got a great write-up.
Will they go home with gold? ...from the BoE sale, maybe? The price is up, perhaps on this very news...
TownCrier
Colombia devalues peso to boost economy
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/ec.htmlHow would you like to be a Columbian citizen with an account filled with pesos? Wave bye bye...
TownCrier
Argentina asks U.S. to talk dollar plan
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990623/x8.htmlPaper money and fears of devaluation...
TownCrier
Analysts doubt U.S. debt to disappear by 2015
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/7b.htmlAs a rule, politicians don't understand how modern currency functions.
TownCrier
Columbian devaluation will not boost coffee sales
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 28--
Aug gold settled up $1.20 at $262 per ounce, after trading inside Friday's range. It
was helped higher by strength in silver and growing expectations of
congressional resistance to proposed IMF gold sales. One large New York trade
house bought over 1,200 lots early in the session, but then gold activity
trailed off and the price moved sideways.
* * *
Silver initially got charged up on the move past $5.05 resistance, prompting
further follow-on buying. Two US trade houses were seen as aggressive buyers.
Although volumes were seen as moderate to light, there was considerable
spread activity from the rollover to the Jly-Sep and Jly-Dec contract months.
Today is COMEX gold and silver futures termination day.
Leonard Kaplan, chief bullion dealer at LFG Bullion Services noted that the
recent dip in COMEX silver stocks is bullish. He said 1-month lease rates are up
fractionally to 1.5% which is also a positive sign.
Meanwhile, this morning's over-the-counter gold and silver options expiry
passed without much activity, said dealers. Gold had a quiet overnight session
and only livened up after silver's rally. "Gold is simply seeing back and forth
technical trade," said one market participant. Another agreed, noting it is
simply "marking time" ahead of the UK Treasury's Jly 6 gold auction.

Comments today from outgoing US Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin were largely
nothing new and shrugged off by market players.
In an interview with a small group of journalists, Rubin said he believes
there has been a fundamental shift in the philosophy of many of the world's
central banks towards the metal. But Rubin stressed again that the US has
"absolutely no intention" of divesting some of its gold reserves.

Kaplan noted that gold is being supported by growing congressional
opposition to IMF gold sales. Last week US Sens. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.) and Chuck
Hagel (R-Ne.) added their voice to a growing list of lawmakers opposed to a plan
by the Group of 7 industrialized nations to provide debt relief to poor
countries by selling a portion of the IMF's gold reserves.
However, he pointed out that the market is "stupidly short" and noted that
fears of a short-covering rally are growing.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $262, up $1.2; RANGE: $260.6-262.6

Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.crbindex.com/reviews/index.htm
No further reproduction without written permission
TownCrier
BBC HEADLINE: Gold miners wait and worry
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_378000/378034.stmAs auction-day approaches, the full-court press via the media has begun. See if you can read through this article and pick out the elements of bluster and propaganda.

Shameful.
TownCrier
Y2K bug busters target company
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_378000/378912.stmOne of the UK's leading financial institutions is at ''serious risk'' from the millennium bug, according to a watchdog.
Runners, take your mark...
TownCrier
Russian laws-for-loans approved
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_378000/378212.stmYikes! With tax collectors like those, I'd rather take my chances among the cruel world having no government at all.
beesting
Recent speech by George Milling-Stanley at World Gold conference in London.
http://www.gold.org/Gedt/Speeches/Gms1999/Ft_conf.htmMay be old news to some. Mr. Milling-Stanley states,Central Banks from Poland,Russia, and the Philippines are current buyers of Gold.
Only 5 Central Banks have sold Gold over the last 10 years!
120 Central Banks have not sold Gold recently,and only one(BOE) has stated it intends to sell a portion of it's Gold holdings. Full speach can be read by clicking above URL.......beesting
beesting
World Gold Councils policy statement--Why should Central Banks hold Gold.
http://www.gold.org/Gra/T_why.htmEver wonder why the U.S. Dollar emerged as the Fiat currency of the World?
Englands Central Bank is replacing Gold Reserves(soon to be sold) with foriegn currency Reserves(U.S. Dollar,Yen, and Euro's) in the hopes of keeping the Pound strong in relation to other World currencies.
Click above URL to see what The World Gold Councils Policy Statement to Central Banks is:
The United States holds SIXTY PERCENT of it's reserves in GOLD.The EU has 27% of reserves in Gold.

It seems Gold reserves are still a very important factor(despite recent anti-Gold propaganda to the contrary) in keeping the value of a currency strong, and I think many U.S. Congressmen/woman,and U.S. Senators realize it. For What It's Worth........beesting
beesting
Here's what we've been waiting for-U.S. Legislation slates to block IMF Gold sales
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/bcl.htmlOne opponent of Gold sales said, many in Washington feel that despite the IMF's new push for transparency, the fund continues to treat Congress like Mushrooms by, Keeping us in the dark and pouring Manure on them!!
Sounds like at least one Congressperson,knows exactly how to grow mushrooms.Click above URL for full news release,enjoy,and I'll take a wild guess,Gold goes up tomorrow.........beesting
SteveH
thought
I noted recently a comment about the IMF. In it -- I have lost the source -- it talked about the IMF loaning gold. Is it just a coincidence? Could it be that the IMF has loaned or leased gold and now (just as we suspect the BOE needs to cover a member bank or dealer) needs to cover a member bank or dealer? Could it be?

megatron
inflation
As a Canadian who travels to the US every 6 months or so to go shopping or on business I cannot believe the amount of inflation in prices in the last 3 years,( even accounting for the canadian peso.) The only item that's relatively the same is gasoline. Food, clothes, alchohol, you name it. There's no doubt in my mind that the official figures are complete lies. It's at least 12-15%. The only reason the average idiot believes it's true is because A; they never leave the country and are unobservant or B; when they do they have no prior basis for judging prices. Dines is right.
It's gotta shoot out at some point, everyone can't be that ignorant can they?
beesting
SteveH#8164 Could it be that the IMF has loaned or leased Gold?
That thought has crossed my mind also,and what about the U.S.'s Central Bank,"The FED" loaning Gold as per Alan Greenspans statement last year!
If U.S.Treasury Gold is being loaned/leased without Congressional approval the Mushroom Manure will REALLY hit the fan.
I'm also wondering if other countries Central Bank holdings are the property of the people of that country,or are the Central Banks private-ly owned?.......beesting
SteveH
megatron and beesting
Inflation is rampant in all items except inflation.

Don't know about CBs ownership. Do know about low gold prices and their impact on gold-related investments.

Don't know about puts and calls, do know about lack of US Press on gold market manipulation.

Do know that friends say, new paradigm, market best place to be, don't know about how I will pay for six-pack of bud and lowenbrau that I lost predicting DOW 6600 two-months ago.
Jason Hommel
The Manipulation of The World Gold Market & A Biblical Perspective
http://www.jasonhommel.com/Basic facts of the gold market prove that there is collusion and manipulation to keep the price of gold artifically low. These world events shed some light on specific Bible prophesies regarding gold that seem on the surface to be conflicting and contradictory. But the short selling of gold by gold hoarders and world governments fulfills Bible prophesies, as I will show. Although, at this point, it is difficult to prove massive short selling (the much bandied about 14,000 tonnes figure) we can prove market manipulation that supports such allegations. First, the facts of world events.

There are about 125,000 tonnes of gold in the world; ($1000 Billion @ $250/oz). The bank of England has 715 tonnes, or $5.9 billion @ $257/oz. Every day, 2300 tonnes of gold ($25 Billion) @ $340/oz. are sold back and forth on the world market--the dollar/oz being higher because of futures contracts. Every year, 2500 tonnes of new gold comes out of the ground and are sold into the world market. The bank of England is selling 415 tonnes over the course of the next year. This sale of 415 tonnes of gold, or, rather, the announcement of it, has been the primary cause, as reported by the popular press, of bringing the price of gold down from $288-290 an ounce to $260 an ounce over the last month. I say 'primary cause' because as reports come in of the "stalled" IMF and Swiss sales, the price has inched slightly higher. Does this make sense?

Should .3% of someting (England's 400/The World's 125,000) affect that something by 10%? Imagine if the Fed increased the money supply by .3%, and inflation raced along at 10% in a month! Instead, in the real world, the Fed increases the money supply by 10% a year, and inflation is 2%!! Going by how dollar inflation works, the .3% of "new gold" from England should affect the gold market by 1/5th of that, or .06% per year, or .005% a month. In other words, if the gold market moved like the market for dollars, the price of gold would should drop .005% in a month, or go from $290 to $289.98 in a month in light of England's announcement.

Let me put it another way.

There are 1,250 pennies held by children in a small classroom. (300-350 of those pennies are held by the Central Banks of Nations) If, in the classroom you imagine, there are a 100 kids, the total is 12.5 pennies each. If 30 kids, 41 pennies each, and so on.

Every day, a few popular kids swap about 23 pennies back and forth, making over 8000 penny trades each year. Every year, 25 new pennies are brought into the classroom by the teacher, to add to the One Thousand, Two Hundred and Fifty held by everyone, and every year, about 35 pennies are purchased, not by the popular kids doing the daily trading, but by those kids who rarely (if never) trade them back to the rest.

There is a kid off in the corner (England) with a very tiny stash of 7 pennies (out of the 1250 in the classroom) who just about never trades pennies. He announces to the classroom that he's going to sell 4 pennies over the course of the next year to the class.

There is another shy kid (Swizerland) with 20 pennies, who says that if his mom (the public) lets him and she's never let him before when he's asked, (and the kid also just received a note from her that he can't sell any pennies at all--the public's vote is 5:2 against the sale), he'll sell 13 of his pennies to the class.

There is another kid, more bold than those two (IMF) who says he'll sell 3 pennies to the class, and use the proceeds to help out the poor kids who owe pennies to the rest, if his dad (the U.S.) lets him. Dad's trying to figure out what to say right now, but is thinking about saying no, since it won't make any difference to the poor kids, and might even hurt them.

There is a fourth kid, (Russia) who sold all of his pennies when he went bankrupt, who luckily always gets one penny from the teacher when she gives out the annual penny rations, who says he's going to try to hang on to his penny this year.

In a "panic", because of the possible one-time annual sale of 4 + (probably not 13) + (probably not 3) +/- 1 into the classroom that has an annual shortfall of 10, the children who do the bulk of the 23-penny trading each day, 8000 per year, suddenly tell the rest of the class that all the pennies in the classroom are not worth 12 and a half bucks, but rather, only 11.25.

If you believe that 4 affects 8000, and that an "oversupply" of 4 can lead to a magic devaluation of at least 125 pennies ($290 to $260 is a loss of $30, or, over 10%), then you believe that England's proposed sale (and the stalled Swiss and IMF sales) can affect the price of the gold supply of the world as it has in the last month as reported by world press.

THIS DOES NOT ADD UP! It is a lie that 4 can affect 8000 by 10% in open markets!

In short, if the world gold markets, as reported by the mainstream press, do not make sense, you should begin to identify who the children are that are trading those 23 pennies each day, who are pretending that the pennies do not have the value that they really do.

So then, I have proven that the gold market is being manipulated. I have not proven nor identified the manipulators, although most gold bugs suspect that it is central banks, and/or governments in on this scam.

Many people on gold forums have commented that there is a 'short position' of about 14,000 tonnes of gold on the world market, more or less. There is only about 30,000 tonnes of gold held by the central banks of governments. That sounds like 1/2 of their gold has already been sold out from under them.

It appears that they have tried to use short sales of gold to keep the price of gold artifically low, so that their counterfeiting schemes of creating paper money would go unnoticed. The leasing of gold to gold producers has been their way to achieve temporary (for 20 years) fiat money success.

Now, the Bible offers some advice about owning gold in the 'last days'. On the surface, it appears as if it both condems and recommends holding onto gold. But looking deeper, and with understanding of the current world situation in the gold markets, it all makes sense...

[Jas 5:1] Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
[Jas 5:2] Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
[Jas 5:3] Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
[Jas 5:4] Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
[Jas 5:5] Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

How can gold canker? How can gold rust? How can the rust of gold be a witness against someone? How is the hire of laborers kept back by fraud? How do riches become a wanton pleasure?

Only through the gold leases and fiat money and taxation.

Picture this: A central bank has 715 tonnes of gold. It leases out 400 tonnes, and realizes it will never be able to get them back because other central banks have done the same thing to artifically depress the gold price and create such a large short position (14,000 tonnes, when the annual supply is 2500 tonnes) that to repay would take 5.6 years of gold mining supply. The gold is, in effect, 'rusted away' and when the price rises, it will not save them. In fact, for these money-makers, the rise of the price of gold will destroy them.

Now I understand the Bible prophesy against them, and the Bible's recommendation to buy actual, physical metal makes perfect sense...

[Rev 3:18.6] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;

If we look at this AMAZING prophesy from Revelation in context, and it makes it all even clearer...

[Rev 3:14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[Rev 3:15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[Rev 3:16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[Rev 3:17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[Rev 3:18.6] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;

Most Biblical scholars say that the Church of Laodiceans is a message to Americans in the 'last days' --TODAY, who have so much material wealth, but are so lukewarm with their Christianity.

Yes, it is true that Americans have among the highest standard of living in the world. Yet, the dollar, like the ruble, the yen, the real, the peso, and all the rest is backed by nothing. People are blind and do not realize how poor they are when trusting fiat money.

On the one hand, the Bible condemns those 'rich men' who have hoarded gold and silver. On the other hand, it recommends that we actually buy the actual physical metal if we wish to be rich. Only in today's manipulated gold market does the condemnation and advice of the Bible regarding gold make sense.

Some followers of the 'price' of gold have commented that it is at a 20 year low. In fact, if you use inflation adjusted dollars, it's really at a 27 year low. You have to go back to 1972 to buy gold as cheaply as you can get it today. That was right after Nixon refused to let forigners redeem their paper money in the yellow metal for $35. That was the last and final gold default since the 1933 devalutation and confiscation of the great depression. In short, the last time gold was this "cheap", it was illegal to own it in the U.S.

Use the inflation calculator at
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflateCPI.html
and kitco's 1833-Present - Avg. yearly prices (check the box and hit submit) at
http://www.kitco.com/gold.londonfix2.html

I believe only the Bible can make predictions this accurate regarding world events, and the timing of them. I believe that only God can direct world events to ensure that His preditions come true.

I do not know if, in the short term, gold will go down in price to as low as $150 an ounce or lower. But this I know; in the long run it appears as if it will be worth more than it is today.... At least for a while, until...

Unless and until...!

The Antichrist sets up his economic system. The Bible says that he will control the gold and silver...

[Dan 11:43.10] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

The AntiChrist also enforces a 'mark of the beast' world economic system that identifies every man on earth who wishes to buy and sell.

[Revelation 13:16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: [17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. [18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (666)

From my readings, it seems as if the Antichrist rises on the back of economic chaos, and that he comes with the answer to world problems. A rise in the price of gold would cause such ecnomic chaos, and I see the Antichrist's solution being the implantable microchip.

You see, after economic chaos, it appears as if the value of gold will temporarily skyrocket until it is controlled and outlawed when the Antichrist sets up his world economic system.

[Ezek 7:19] They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

[Mat 6:24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

But let me come back to the recommendation in Rev 3:18 again...

[Rev 3:18.6] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;

The most amazing thing of all is that there are numerous reports of gold being found in Church services across the world. There are reports of gold teeth and gold dust appearing on people's hands and faces while worshipping Christ. Perhaps this is the spiritual application of Rev 3:18, that is forshadowing the real world fulfillment of a skyrocketing valuation of gold.

For more information,

http://www.jasonhommel.com
THX-1138
Facts about US Constitution and 2nd Amendment
http://www.constitution.org/cons/quotes01.htmEver since Clinton and his cronies have been violating the Laws of the U.S., I have started reading and becoming interested in the Constitution and Federalist Papers and the original intent of the Founding Fathers. Anyway, the above link is from a site that tries to provide info on the real meanings regarding aspects of the Constitution. Go back to the main page at www.constitution.org to start reading different articles.
The above link provides great quotes regarding the 2nd Amandment. I like the following one best.

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional
privilege."

--Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878


Throw that in Clinton's face. It's from his own home State.

THX-1138
SteveH
Jason, liked your two cents
Good post.
THX-1138
Jason Hommel
Curious you post something about gold dust on peoples hands.

Some of the people in my church have actually witnessed that. I haven't yet, but hope to someday. We have a revival going on at my church.

Another thing is that my pastor during one sermon stated that there is no prophesy left to be completed before the rapture of God's church takes place. There is however prophesies that have yet to take place before Armagedon.

In the short term I think gold will help to protect people before the rapture but after it takes place. Well,....all I can say is God help them for they will live in hard times.

THX-1138
SteveH
various
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_99/vronsky062899.htmlSee above link for COT and OI and comments. Good stuff.

See below for GATA comments.

10p EDT Monday, June 28, 1999

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Here's a great essay posted today at
www.lemetropolecafe.com by a great supporter of GATA
who writes as Professor Von Braun of the Rocket School
of Economics. It is in part a reply to the recent essay
by Martin Armstrong of Princeton Economics
International.

Please post as seems useful.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

* * *

The Gold Market Mystery: Fact or Fiction?

By Professor von Braun

The Rocket School of Economics

June 26, 1999


Much has been written in recent times about the gold
market and why the price keeps falling and falling and
falling. Some of the comments have been quite accurate
while others (especially those coming from sources who
should really know better) have been bizarre to say the
least.

"What's going on with the gold price?" is the most
often asked question amongst gold bugs, gold mining
companies, shareholders of these companies, elected
representatives and officials of governments where
gold plays an important role in their respective
communities, gold coin dealers and their customers.
In fact many industry players have been scratching
their heads for some time now and quite rightly,
continue to do so. The only segment that remains smug
and enjoys being bearish is the bullion dealers
themselves, almost to the point that they know
something the rest of us don't, but they are not about
to tell.

The history of gold as a currency and as a component of
Central Bank reserves is well documented and does
not need to be revisited as far as this article is
concerned. However, certain historic occurrences are
perhaps relevant to what is going on at present and we
will make mention of them as we progress through some
facts, keeping in mind that there really are very few
facts when it comes to this market that are actually
verifiable and transparent. Although the transparency,
as in "give me the gold" is obvious.

Let's look at some of these facts. It is true that gold
peaked in February 1996 at $417 per ounce and has been
in a decline ever since. This falling price has defied
the supply and demand equation for nearly four years
if we are to believe the figures put out by both the
World Gold Council (WGC) and Gold Fields Mineral
Services (GFMS) group reports. For several years (at
least since 1994) we have had a shortfall in excess of
a 1,000-tonnes-per-annum and currently running at 1,600
tonnes, with demand at 4,000 tonnes and supply at 2,400
tonnes per annum. Some source of supply is making up
this shortfall if it actually exists.

The common belief is that unreported central bank
sales are what's behind this mysterious source of
supply that neither the WGC or GFMS can account for.
The reality may be that gold leased from the CBs,
(terminology is a bit tricky here, borrowed, leased, or
loaned seems to apply, with leased being favored) and
sold into the market probably accounts for this
shortfall. Simply put it seems that gold can be leased
(borrowed) from CBs and actually sold into the market
with a promise to pay it back being sufficient to OK
the transaction. Any entity (read member of the LBMA
and their favored clients) that has been involved in
this type of transaction since early 1996 has,
financially, done extremely well, this too is a fact.
There are estimates out there in the murky gold
universe that suggest that at least 4,000 tonnes and
perhaps 12,000 tonnes of gold may have entered the
market this way.

CB gold that is not sold but is leased or loaned
remains on their books as still being part of their
reserves. This is important to remember as it makes it
difficult for independent analysts to pinpoint where
gold is coming from. The transparency issue is in a
sense, a non event here as most CBs that have gold
reserves lend (lease) these reserves out to cover the
cost of holding the yellow metal, and yet don't report
it. Alan Greenspan's comment to Congress last year that
central banks stand ready to mobilize their gold
reserves should the gold price rise is one of the more
mysterious elements in what is a complex situation.

Another element in this same complex situation is the
reported daily turnover on the London Bullion and
Metals Association (LBMA) daily market, which is
currently, according to the figures released by them
(sorry, guys, but this is questionable), 1,000 tonnes
per day. How much of this is physical and how much is
"paper" gold we don't know. What that tells you is that
while "official" (per WGC and GFMS numbers) demand
figures put worldwide demand for physical metal at
4,000 tonnes per annum, the LBMA trades (?) this amount
every four days. Keep in mind that these figures don't
include what is traded by LBMA members outside of the
UK. How much this is, is anybody's guess. Nor does this
include OTC trading in New York, Sydney, Hong Kong, or
Dubai.

Another interesting number (as there are no known
mining company records going back 10,000 years) bandied
about is the estimate of above-ground gold reserves,
which puts the total gold estimated to actually exist
at between 120,000 and 130,000 tonnes. CBs are believed
to hold about 30,000 tonnes of this total as reserves
with the United States and the new European Central
Bank accounting for 20,000 tonnes. The rest is
somewhere on the planet, residing as jewelry,
artifacts, icons, gold coins, bullion held privately,
industrial usage, and scrap being recycled. The amount
held privately and available to trade is questionable.
Obviously it seems some is traded. Once again the LBMA
figures suggest that they trade 250,000 tonnes per
annum, the entire above-ground estimate twice a year.

Now let's look at Mr. Greenspan's remarks that CBs
stand ready to mobilize their gold reserves. I have a
mental picture of a trumpet being blown and several
thousands of gold bars appearing and reporting for
duty, mobilized, ready to deal with the invasion of --
something, But obviously that's not it. What is a known
fact is that if you own a large percentage of the
reserves of any commodity, you can affect the price,
(deBeers and diamonds come quickly to mind), which is
of course a potential but not so clear case of price
manipulation, should that occur. Even more so when
these are "reserves" that are being mobilized -- and I
don't mean the National Guard here, but reserves which
are supposed to be held to support the currency. So
which CBs' gold reserves was AG referring to when he
made that statement?

And how much gold do the CBs actually have? This is a
key question -- actually one of several key questions.

Then there is the "problem" of the gold price itself
and what it means from a sentiment point of view in
terms of how currencies are perceived. Any serious
doubts an individual may have about a currency's
strength or weakness can be offset by purchasing gold
bullion; this is a fact. Keep in mind that the United
States has made gold ownership illegal before,
confiscating gold from its citizens back in the 1930s.
This too is a fact; it did happen. I believe that the
statute is still on the books to this day.

Any experienced public relations person would tell you,
upon reviewing the bad press that gold has received
since early 1996, that there is an attempt to badmouth
the precious metal markets -- no proof but many smoking
guns by way of announcements that have always been
timed to depress the price.

The numbers given out on the gold market simply do not
stack up when it comes to what's available in the
public arena in terms of gold being traded, supply and
demand, CB reserves, and the big unknown -- gold that
has been "leased" and sold into the market, which, by
the way, has to be repurchased at some stage and
delivered back to its rightful owner. Very important
point. If this type of transaction has taken place,
somebody either has, or will have, a problem. Even more
so if the WGC and the GFMS figures are correct.

Much ado has been made of the apparent potential for A)
Swiss CB sales, and B) IMF sales, but there is a
problem with both these "potential" transactions, since
they require approvals that are not yet in place. The
spinmeisters (and there are spinmeisters) seem to have
the idea that any holder of gold is a potential seller,
and this of course is true, just as any voter in any
U.S. election could vote for either party. At some
stage anything may or may not be for sale. Even after
we have had repeated statements that certain gold
reserves are not for sale, the spin continues that it
is. That's the spin, as opposed to the reality, which,
it appears, doesn't count.

Then we have the Bank of England deciding to sell some
of its gold and announcing it for all the world to hear
prior to the event. This sounded like verification of
Forrest Gump's great line, "Stupid is as stupid does."
After badmouthing gold for several years, informing the
world of other potential large sales by anybody and
everybody, only to be wrong, totally wrong (these sales
simply did not materialize), they come along and for a
piddling 25-tonnes wipe 10 percent off the gold price,
and then say they are surprised by the fall in price.

Nobody else was. I don't think they where either.

So what really gives here?

Do we have a gold market that is dying, disappearing,
acting out its final scene, while becoming redundant?
Or are we watching a replay of a previously failed
attempt at suppressing the gold price?

An attempt to go off a gold standard, even though going
off a gold standard is not an option while you hold
gold as a reserve component, is something a certain
gentleman who runs a very good forecasting service
based in Princeton fails to understand.

Perhaps instead we have a market that is, as a result
of the activities of its leading participants (the
major bullion banks) becoming "distressed." Distressed
to the point that they (the leading participants) will
go to any lengths to try to keep the price from rising
while they rush to cover their obligations --
obligations that see them delivering physical metal
back to the parties they have leased/borrowed/conned
it from and sold into the market?

Could the statement made by Greenspan in June last year
refer to this possibility? After all, who could upset
the gold market (and create volatility) other than the
bullion dealers themselves? Surely not the mining
companies! Perhaps certain CBs have something to answer
to in this regard.

One thing of interest, so far not commented on, is the
mining companies themselves, who have been painted as
the bad guys by the bullion banks and yet have failed
miserably to come to their own defense. Even as
recently as last week the bullion banks were blaming
forward selling by mining companies as the reason
behind the drop in price. But did we hear any
repudiations from this sector? "Well, let's not fart in
church here. After all, who might hear us?"

This, coupled with words of wisdom from the apparently
wise and the not so wise, those who should know better
and those who fit the "blowing smoke up you know where"
category, has certainly aided the very successful PR
campaign designed to lower the gold price, as evidenced
by where it is at today.

The shortage of reliable facts in terms of numbers that
can be relied upon doesn't help either.

One interesting fact that can be relied upon is that
between 1965 and 1971 the Bank of England reduced its
gold holdings from 2,012 tonnes to 690 tonnes, more
than two-thirds of its gold reserves, at a market
bottom (US$35 per ounce, prior to a 10-year move to
US$850) and it certainly seems determined to achieve
this result again.

Trying to convince the gullible public that gold is
worthless is a stunt that has been pulled many times
before over many years, always by the same group of
people, always for the same reasons. They have never
succeeded yet and it is unlikely that this time will be
any different.

----------------------

Professor von Braun can be contacted via email at
profvonb@aol.com.
koan
gold and silver feelings
You could feel it today - gold just inched up a bit begrudgingly, while silver was chomping on the bit. The warehouse stocks are making everyone nervous. I know I am paying the ask for my last few silver stock options. It is hard for either gold or silver to roar because the technical damage is so severe, evertime one or the other starts to move, wham. So the only thing that will work is pure hard core speculation backed by fundamentals which is what you have right now. I was amused that one of the analysts I follow indicated that a rep of the silver USERS associtation said there were plenty of above ground supplies. Who do you think wants silver to stay down - the silver users. I am not much into conspiries, but I have to say if I was, silver would be at the top of my list. Big users like Kodak et al have been having a free ride for a long time - low prices, they don't have to stock it, just buy it off the shelf at about half or less than what it is truly worth. These comex stats may not be real, but they are sure acting real. I just do not see the warehouse stocks starting to increase significantly- how would they do that? As I have said, pretty exciting. PS I saw on Kitco that one person reported the comex stocks unchanged, but the eligible to registered were something like 166,000, can't remembeer the exact number,but it was a positive number.
Jason Hommel
Prior to rapture...
I know this is not the forum for religious debate/discussions, but I wanted to adress the comment made by THX-1138 regarding nothing happening before the rapture. I would be happy to take this to personal email at group@spintheweb.com

[1Thess 4:16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[John 14:12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Perhaps we will see dead people being brought back to life in the Churches in addition to faith healings? That's what the scriptures seem to say. Jesus said his followers would do greater works than his, and Jesus raised the dead!
SteveH
OI/link
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/goldfinger062999.htmlInteresting link.

OI (open interest) at 213,000 Friday. Recent high?
SteveH
Aug. gold now...
$261.80.

I believe the grassroot knowledge of gold market manipulation has be established and set in motion. Now it is only a matter of time before two people tell two people who tell two people who tell two people who tell the world.




beesting
From India via Kitco--Finance Ministry keen on Gold monetisation
http://www.indian.express.com/fe/daily/19990119/01955215p.htmlThis is not a current news story;Mumbai,India: The finance ministry is keen on monetisation of at least 12000 tonne of idle Gold reserves through Gold deposit schemes.
India accounts for about 8% of world Gold reserves.
In the first quarter of 1999 about 450 tonne of Gold has come into the country.
Bankers are, however sceptical about an early launch of Gold money, because proper infrastructure to process Gold into coins does not yet exist.

Thanks to MOZ in Australia, we know the Perth Mint would be happy to assist in production of(real money) Gold money for their close friends in India.
In case you didn't read all of Mr.Milling-Stanley's speech(URL posted today) he stated that, India and China are the main countries targeted for their(World Gold Council)Gold marketing strategy.

I wonder if an American could enjoy retirement in India??.....beesting
Beowulf
What? Gold doesn't do anything but sit in vaults?
As a reply to some of these links where someone moron bankers make comments about gold just sitting in vaults not making any profit I just have to say a few things. Who said central banks are supposed to make a profit? They are supposed to hold the currency of the taxpayer plain and simple and pay off debts with the money deposited by THE TAXPAYER. I am a TAXPAYER, although I've heard paying income tax is voluntary. My taxes are to be used only to pay off the debt of this country (the US) and I am sick and tired of the Government handing it out as charity to everyone they think is needy. I do not pay taxes to a charitable institution. That is what charities are for, to give help to the needy. That is what relative and churches are for, that is what insurance is for. You say these people lost their houses to a storm or a fire? Where they insured? NO? So your going to pay for them to rebuild with my TAX MONEY? Why do I pay for insurance if someone else can have the Government pay for them to rebuild because they don't have it?

Now you say I'm not a sensitive caring citizen of this Republic because I object to your use of MY TAX MONEY to pay for them to rebuild? What about someone who smokes in bed and sets the house on fire? Should they also be given money to rebuild using MY TAX MONEY?

You say no they shouldn't? But MR. BANKER/CONGRESSMAN/SENATOR how is this different? How is it that CLINTON can help pay for the burial of a few students shot in Colorado but not for people killed in the Oklahoma Bombing? Now you reader are probably saying I'm shallow and uncaring but I'm not. I'll give money to a charity for a needy cause, but I object to my TAX MONEY being used in the same manner. I object that my TAX MONEY is used to replace houses washed away in a storm because someone was stupid enough to build on a beach, in tornado alley, or next to a river that floods annually and the owners complain they couldn't afford insurance, that's their problem not mine. I don't pay taxes so that my house or car can be replaced by the government during a storm, and I don't expect the government to rebuild it for me that's not their job.

As for Gold sitting in Central Banks not doing anything then I suggest to you MR. BANKER that it be minted into coins and used as currency, be it quarters or dimes I don't care, then your paper money may be assumed to be worth something. At least you would be able to break a paper dollar or pound or lira, whatever, into a currency worth something. That coinage would then make your paper appear to be backed by that precious metal. The only reason your gold sits in your bank is because if it was minted into coins then you would certainly see it doing something, and that would be getting up and walking across the border to another country who would appreciate it more than you. Your GOLD sits in your vault to show the world that you have collateral.

One of my favorite Science Fiction series, The Adventures of Conrad Stargard, by Leo Frankowski has a great chapter refering to just this situation MR. BANKER. Conrad, after going back in time and killing the mongol hoard before they could decimate Europe ends up with all this gold booty and fears inflation due to all the gold and silver suddenly available. His solution was to cast the gold and silver into two HUGE cubes and placed in his castles main square so nobody would question his CREDIT. I suggest to you MR. BANKER that the gold in your vault not doing anything is there so nobody questions your CREDIT, plain and simple.
Usul
One of those leading financial institutions is at serious risk!
It came to pass that one day at the moneylenders' market,
a wise old gentleman who was well known in that
neighbourhood went about the people telling them:
"Listen carefully to me, friend, because your wealth is at
risk from one of these moneylenders. I can not tell you
which one, for I know not who it is. But one of this
market's moneylenders is surely at ''serious risk'' through
having conducted business imprudently."
And so, after a short time, these facts became known
throughout the market. And because the people knew
not which moneylender was bad, they would trust their
money with none. And before the sun set, any one
who had money on deposit with the moneylenders
carried away all that they could carry . And no more
would take the loan of any moneylender.
And in due course, all those moneylenders fell to poverty
through the imprudence of one and the secretive habits
of those who would advise the wise gentleman.
Canuck
BOE auction & A.G
Had a thought last night as I entered into unconsiousness
after a long day at work 'fighting' the Y2K bug.

A few souls on this forum have mentioned that there is/was
an unusual precedent set by the BOE in pre-announcing
its intent to auction off some 400 mt of its gold reserve.
Was the BOE 'feeling' the reaction as to not spook markets??
Would the POG have dropped signicicantly more than $30/oz.
if the BOE had just 'done' the auction without some 60/70
days notice??

We are getting very close to what I feel is going to be a
major 'rattling of chains' in the markets. Tommorrow (and
quite possibly today), I feel, is going to be a hair raising
experience. Does anyone know when Mr. Greenspan publicly
announces the new interest rate direction?? My monies and
I am sure alot of others, are posed to move in the
direction of safety. Please comment.
Aristotle
Part 5--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market
...continued from Aristotle (6/25/99; 18:06:45MDT - Msg ID:8073) "Part 4"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/24/99; 6:17:53MDT - Msg ID:8007) "Part 3"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/23/99; 19:56:08MDT - Msg ID:7997) "Part 2"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/20/99; 15:31:21MDT - Msg ID:7839) "Part 1" found at:
http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/archives/2019996/default.html

Before I conclude this commentary, let me first express my gratitude to USGOLD for hosting this illuminating site, and for the tolerance I've been extended by so many here for my four long posts that up until this moment probably didn't seem germane to the topic of Gold. If you are joining this series late, I strongly suggest you first read the prior four parts which were given as necessary background. On any journey, the first few steps are the most important, and in this case they were also the most difficult--to include enough for context without drifting off-topic. This last part is easy. The task at hand is to provide an explanation of Gold's pre-eminence as a monetary asset. Gold is, in fact, Money, while the dollar and others are merely currencies--an importance difference!

I am not claiming to be offering new findings of my own. The inspiration for this series of posts originated from comments Aragorn III offered to a small group last month, and I have been challenged to render this tale into the clearest of terms suitable even for those not acquainted with Gold and worldly economics. If I have suceeded in my challenge, at the conclusion of this final part you will fully grasp how the free market has managed to provide a sophisticated asset (Gold) at a laughably minute fraction of its relative value. You will also understand how to justify to your WallStreet-enthralled loved-ones that Gold (metal, not stock) must be added to their wealth management plans. You will KNOW that Gold is Money, and will gain new respect for its "price." Although this information isn't "new," hopefully this explanation of financial operations with Gold, together with the background information of the 1970's Oil Crises will help you anticipate and conclude for yourself an outlook for events ahead, and will also help you to better understand and evaluate the important messages being presented by ANOTHER and FOA, in addition to the other worthy knights of this Table round. Knowledge is power, and with it your destiny shall be yours to decide.

[This is the intro to the concluding section, so you now know what you're in for. A proof-read of the body of the text for clarity convinced me I have some necessary modifications to make before posting. Sorry if this comes across as a teaser, but I wanted to assure anyone anticipating its arrival that is well in the works... ---Aristotle]
TownCrier
Fed's words may be louder than deeds for forex market
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990628/bcd.htmlLooking for keys into the future
TownCrier
Fed Meets Today on Interest Rates
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/990629/fed_intere_1.htmlAfter indicating that a rate hike is already reflected in stock prices, an analyst says "now investors are thinking it's a great time to buy."

One question. Are they actually *thinking* that, or are they being told what to think?
Technician
Looks not so bad
Looks like gold is becoming more "politically in". They are even showing ads for it on Bloomberg tv. Anyway, I am very happy with my bullion coins, DROOY and for my contracts, I will just let the trend ride on a 8/16 weighted moving average closing basis). That makes the position a no-brainer. Bottom is in guys:)
Cavan Man
Jason
Excellent analogy and good common cents. In your references to Sacred Scripture, I belive Gold is referred to in a metaphorical sense. There are many references to Gold in The Holy Bible. A review of these might lead one to the conclusion that The Almighty established gold and silver for purposes of sound money and economy to prevent so many of the abuses we see today. There are also many references to honest weights and measures which were established I think for the same fundamental reason. Whatever His reasons, it is not for the mind of man to know for, we cannot. I always take interpretations of Scripture with a little salt. Thanks for your fine contribution.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: Asian Gold Demand Up Sharply!
MARKET REPORT(6/29/99): Gold slogged to higher ground this morning though the
going was difficult managing to tack another 60� atop yesterday's gains. At one point the
yellow was a $1.40 higher on a Reuters report out of Asia that gold demand had surged in
key countries there over the past few months.

A recovery in Asian gold demand when taken into consideration along with reports of
supply tightness at the refinery level could be welcome news to a sorely tested market. Gold
imports increased 25% in Hong Kong, 50% in Taiwan and 27% in Japan. Souteast Asia
and Indonesia also reporteded strong growth.

At the time of the Asian crisis last year, we noted that once the smoke clears in those
beleagured economies we would find a new gold market that was not likely to disappear for
generations. Those who suffered the effects of the Asian contagion, most notably the
destruction of their currencies and equities markets, would not forget the effects perhaps --
fertile ground for yellow metal demand in the years to come.

These figures are the only the first inkling of what I believe will be the strongest sector
demand growth for gold ever recorded. Some people understand the value of gold
intellectually. For others the attachment is intuitive. But for anyone who has ever suffered
the consequences of a failed economy, the desire for gold becomes a need not likely to go
unmet. We do business at CPM/USAGOLD with a number of Midwestern and Western
based German families wherein the grandparents had suffered the ill effects of the
Nightmare German Inflation and tell stories around the dinner table about what life was like
in those times. The grandchildren of those families continue to acquire gold though that
debilitating event occurred 75 years ago -- further proof of the point I'm trying to make:
Some things are never forgotten.

I will leave yesterday's report up for a few days for those who missed it. I think it delivers
a particularly important overview that I'd as like as many to read as possible.

(6/28/99) Gold showed some signs of life this morning -- at one point trading $1.20 higher
-- with investment markets across the boards girding up for this week's Federal Reserve
Open Market Committee meeting. Most market observers say the Fed will raise rates a
quarter point; some are saying a half. The decision is expected to be announced Wednesday
the day many Americans will begin making preparations for the long Fourth of July
weekend/getaway.

Subsequently, don't forget, the Bank of England steps to the plate July 6 with its first gold
auction at which many unanswered questions are likely to find at least the beginnings of
resolution. Reuters London offers this assessment of the BOE situation from Kamal Naqvi
of British based Macquarie Equities: "Prices have not fallen as low as once seemed possible
prior to the first UK 25-tonne gold auction and the market now seems more inclined to test
the upside. We are currently expecting an auction price of $265.00 per ounce but would not
be surprised if the market attempts higher in the interim."

In the 1970s when both the United States and the International Monetary Fund auctioned
gold the price rose throughout the liquidation. Many attribute the strong bidding at the sales
as the primary motivator for the bull market in gold that became one of the defining financial
events of that decade. Back to this morning's Reuters: "Traders have suggested a successful
auction could spark short covering and lift prices from near 20-year lows by flushing out
investment funds holding large short positions. Data released late on Friday by the U.S.
Commodity Futures Trading Commission put net non-commercial futures positions in
COMEX gold at nearly 8.5 million ounces short." The optimism is based on the fact that
short positions at some point need to be covered in order for the holder of that position to
reap a profit -- unless of course the holder of that position doesn't mind if the option expires
worthless. As we said in the June issue of News & Views:

This is the time of year when thoughts turn to summertime pleasures -- tying the
perfect fly, grooving the swing, getting the boat on the water, barbecues and picnics,
family and friends. Most years we encourage our friends and readers to kick back, let the
markets and world events take a back seat, and let the summer flow. This year we are
counseling caution. There is much in the wind and here's where we get back to our Five
Horsemen -- Y2K, euro introduction, the Asian contagion, the over-valued stock market
and rising oil. This is a year to put one foot in the affairs of summer, another in the
affairs of financial markets and attend to both. Judging from the discussions I have had
with Centennial clientele, most are already thinking along these lines. For those
counting on an easy, carefree summer this year, events might might shake the reverie.

In the latest News & Views, we ramble through the many issues surrounding the gold
market and give the reader a good, solid overview of what's happened in this topsy turvy
market of the last month or so. If you are looking for some short and sweet analysis as to
what is going in the gold market today from a multitude of sources, you'll like this
upcoming issue. It is a quick and interesting read. Please go to our ORDER FORM or call
Marie at 1-800-869-5115 for a Free Copy of News & Views -- our widely read monthly
newsletter -- and introductory packet on gold ownership.
The Invisible Hand
The Desire for Gold
I am still suffering from jet lag from three weeks spent in the Philippines. But I can't wait to post (more later if I recover from the jet lag).

In the Philippines, I realised that small gold producers have to sell all their production to the central bank and that larger producers can sell on the world market.

One guy I met pretends to have five thousand tonnes of gold in his warehouses. (Anybody from GS on the list? Contact me through MK :-) ). A banker told me that this is not impossible. I don't know.

Today's market report (I am almost forgetting to tell you how heart lifting the reading of this list was when I read the evolution of the gold price earlier this month in the Filipino newspapers) says that anyone who has suffered the consequences of a failed economy understands the value of gold.

I would take this a step further and argue that anyone who has suffered the consequences of nasty human behaviour (vis-a-vis him/her) needs a standard to guide his/her life.

I am only 37. I bought my first Maple Leaf in 1989 (when the price was just above $ 400). In those 10 years since 1989, I have never regretted that I bought that gold.

It was only last November that I learnt about the short position. Is this not great that justice will prevail? That the Invisible Hand cannot be tampered with indefinitely?

Your family and friends will tell you that gold is dead
(one guy at the Philippine central bank told me even that it was not possible to introduce a gold based currency because the weight/value in gold of a 1 (Philippine) peso coin is higher than the face value of the coin - this guy had grasped the meaning of the gold standard!),
but you you know that gold is ... money.

A = A.
Gandalf the White
At the stroke of Noon NY time --- same ol'e
Things have not changed while I have been out from the Tableround observing the battlefield !! --- Today, I see AGAIN that the shorts arrived a noon in NY to DUMP a load on poor Spot the dog, just as Spot was starting to feel chipper again. -- Show no disparagement, gather more of the giveaway Au !! -- The tide of battle is turning, and we await Ari's final chapter.
<;-)
koan
silver divergence
Gold is up a hair and silver is up strongly. If silver can close above $5.19 that will be a strong closing. I Checked all the major gold and silver mining stocks - all are pretty much flat except Pan American Silver which is smoking up .85 to $8.75 Canadian. Pan american has warrants with a strike of $9.00 good until Feb 2,001. These opyions have been my main purchase last two weeks. I am now done buying. I bought options on almost all the major silver companies. We shall see - there have been so many false moves! Koan
Technician
Crude & gold?
Jan. crude is at new contract highs. The close will be interesting.
TownCrier
Retirement funds pose challenge for many Americans
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/0m.html"Fidelity, the nation's largest mutual funds complex, said its survey showed that some participants are not contributing the maximum allowed to their 401(k) plans..."

C'mon, people. Feed the machine...
TownCrier
Meet Stuart Eizenstat, nominated to succeed Lawrence Summers as deputy Treasury secretary
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/p5.htmlThrough this nomination, administration officials to mend the rocky relations between Treasury and State departments. In the past, State's greater willingness to use economic policy as a tool of foreign policy has "clashed with the decidedly free-market policies championed by Rubin and Summers."
CoBra(too)
@Beowolf
In NTV-the German equivalent of CNBC yesterday- a guy from DG-Bank, was even more outspoken in his quote: "Why is so much money (?-paper?) wasted to find and dig up the metal, which has, absolutely no (other) use than to be buried again, mostly in subsurface vaults" and went on telling the public to sell this nonperforming metal( never - asset)since according to his charts the stuff is going to $ 200 minimum.
I just love it. The guy looked like 35 max and told the world - in NTV's gold update - sell - we're in a new era of everlasting expansion - unfortunately, he's right in terms of ever expanding money supply, PE's, and overall valuations of paper assets and - even T-bonds.
Uh, O sorry,I mean the T-B yield, only slipped to old era paradoxons, since now we know that even Rob the Ruby figures rising interest rates are good for the long term health and viability of financial markets. Rub it in Rob, we'll be just delighted to find out after you've fled the (ob)scene.
It's also good to know, Rob, that you're one of the stalwart
defenders of US gold as reserve currency, so let's sell IMF gold. The US taxpayer has only pledged 17,5% to the IMF, while, admittedly the gold component is unknown we would also wonder what's left in the subterranean vaults of the FRB in view of huge (alledged) short postions in the leasing game of gold - an euphemism of (paper) money creation (behind te scenes), next to the visible machine that (according to CNBC never stops). Obscene!
IMHO - 25 ounces of BoE to the ton will make the big impact and assures the shorts to lose even those!
The Scot
Kitco Gold Graph ?
Did they quit trading gold early today? why does the Kitco graph go flat at 12:30? Anyone know? The Scot
TownCrier
Countries can't devalue out of trouble-Eizenstat
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/st.htmlLooks like he likes the IMF.
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News
New York--Jun 29--Aug gold ended unchanged
today at $262 per ounce after edging up to an 11-day high of $263.50.

In gold, Bill O'Neill, analyst at Merrill Lynch, noted that the close was
"disappointing" after an initial pickup in buying interest out of Asia.
Gold has also been supported by talk of growing US congressional opposition
to IMF gold reserve sales, said traders.

However, O'Neill noted that US Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin's comments
Monday that gold has lost its psychological edge as a monetary reserve
don't bode well for the market.
Gold's reaction to this negative news was nevertheless limited because
"many people have already come to that conclusion," he said.

Gold players will continue to await news from the US Federal Reserve
meeting, which continues Wednesday. Financial markets are widely expecting
a 25 basis point hike in interest rates. While a rate hike is typically
negative for gold, because it increases the cost of holding physical
assets, a 25-basis point increase has largely been discounted, O'Neill
said. Gold is unlikely to react unless the Fed "pulls a surprise," he
said.

Gold has been supported this week after vice chairman of Congress'
Joint Economic Committee Rep. Jim Saxton, R-N.J., said Monday he plans to
introduce legislation as early as this week that would prevent the IMF
from selling its gold reserves unless it sells them back to the countries
that contributed to its reserve. [an idead suggested long ago at USAGOLD!!]

Also, the World Gold Council said that Ghana's public statement today
that it wants the IMF to stop it plans to sell gold to raise funds for
debt relief is a strong signal that opposition to the plan is growing.
Ghana is the largest gold producer among the heavily indebted poor
countries, which the IMF plan is aimed to help.

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $262, unchanged; RANGE: $263.5-261.7

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
Gandalf the White
XAU started a move near the CLOSE
XAU closed at 65.21 today, with a reversal and breaking the 65 level. As one can see, it is much more difficult to control the stocks that makeup the Gold and Silver Index (XAU) than control Spot the dog (Gold) with shorting dumps like occured today.-- Ari, the Hobbits are getting restless, and chanting, "Ari, Ari, Ari!!"
TownCrier
Key U.S. Republican seeks to quash IMF gold sales
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/20.htmlHouse Republican Leader Dick Armey criticized the plan as "just a way for the IMF to acquire liquidity for more mischief without being accountable."

Democrats and Republicans show their true colors on this one. Republicans describe the chances of the IMF sale as "dead in the water," but Democrats say it's too soon for many lawmakers to have decided the issue.

TownCrier
MUST READ: U.S. asked to investigate oil dumping by 4 nations
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/3z.htmlRead this to understand the mindset of corporations regarding international trade.

Independent American oil producers filed a petition with the U.S. government accusing Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela and Iraq of selling oil in the United States below its fair market value.

From the article: "If the countries are found guilty of dumping, sanctions could include imposing duties on imported crude, which would raise oil prices paid by U.S. refineries and most likely increase gasoline prices at the pump for consumers."

What is wrong with the cheapest goods we can get, anywhere?
TownCrier
INTERVIEW-Asia gold demand shows recovery signs
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/fu.html"Selling and buying gold is a normal practice for central banks in order to management their reserves. I am sure there are central banks who want to buy gold. But they would do so quietly," he said.

Some things are best done quietly...
TownCrier
COUNTDOWN TO Y2K: Businesses Not Ready For Y2K But Lawyers Are
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/06/29/BU60141.DTL"Anticipate the unavoidable and react to the failures" is the advice given in the end.
TownCrier
Threat to UK economy from Y2000 bug
http://www.itn.co.uk/Business/bus19990628/062801bu.htmBritian's top 1,000 firms are still at risk from the millennium bug, according to an independent report.
TownCrier
Will Y2K bug bite workers?
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctf483.htmThis seems to be a fair report with obvious biases absent. Click the link.
Sailor
Was there a halt in gold trading today?
http://www.kitco.comIt looks like both gold and silver trading were halted early today.
What's going on?
Farfel
Michael, I'm Sorry But Saxton's Idea is BAD!
News Report said...

Gold has been supported this week after vice chairman of Congress' Joint Economic Committee Rep. Jim Saxton, R-N.J., said Monday he plans to introduce legislation as early as this week that would prevent the IMF from selling its gold reserves unless it sells them back to the countries
that contributed to its reserve. [an idea suggested long ago at USAGOLD!!]

Farfel Says...

Michael, if the IMF sells the gold back to the countries that contributed the metal, then MOST of those countries will likely proceed to sell it thereafter themselves.

The IMF gold sales, instead of being a ONE-STEP process, simply become a TWO-STEP process. It does NOT solve the problem!

Saxton's compromise ends up screwing gold producers...only difference between his proposed solution and the original call for the IMF gold sale is that Saxton's method delays the "screwing." Big Deal!

Therefore, I must humbly declare that your idea is NOT good. Sorry.




beesting
Nick Leeson-Futures Trader who bankrupted Barings Bank.
http://www.barney.co.za/jun99/leeson29.htmNews story about 32 year old Nick Leeson,his spectacular FUTURES TRADING gambles lost 1.4 billion,they brought down Barings Bank,Britains oldest bank in 1995 and sent Leeson to jail(for 4 years).
His downfall came on complex bets that the Japanese Stock market would remain stable, but the Japanese Stock market crashed after an earthquake hit the city of Kobe,Japan.
Leeson concealed his losses(thats what he went to jail for) and kept on trading,and continued losing.
He has attained celebrity status, a film titled"Rogue Trader"was released last week in London,and a book is about to be written.

Comment: What would happen if some of the larger hedgers in the futures markets(Gold mines)couldn't cover some of their contracts due to natural disasters'striking workers,Y2K,or other problems beyond their control.Answer: financial meltdown!
Also notice in the above article how the author refers to futures trading as outright gambling,click above URL for full story........beesting
Cavan Man
beesting
Wall Street is attracting many like MR. Leeson. They come from the blue chip and blue blood universities. Many of these young men and women may be qualified academically but certainly not emotionally. The typical recruit comes from a household with relatively high disposable income and generally has not known hardship of any variety during their short lifetimes. These freshly minted grads belong to the silver spoon and platter brigade. IMHO, this type of personality, working in the financial nerve centers of the world, only increases the need for vigilance on the part of the prudent investor. I should know because I have just such a cousin. (Although he's a good kid)
Cavan Man
beesting, your "comment"
If contracts could not be covered and financial meltdown semed imminent, I suppose one solution might be confiscation of Main Street's hoard. What do you think?
Richard, Oregon
Ignorance / Apathy
I've read a little of the post this AM, heard a little of the news, soooo, I may be way off base here. The national debt is highest since the beginning of time, the stock market is acknowledge by most to be highly overvalued, numerous countries around the world are in extreme financial difficulty, the Fed Chairman confirms all of the above, time and time again and tells us for months that higher interest rates are coming along with a down turn in the stock market, our confessed liar of a president tells everyone we have a budget surplus and he thinks it should be spent on . . . , etc., etc., etc. No one questions any of the above and today the stock market rises to extreme. I don't get it!

There was a BC cartoon many years ago, my favorite, two guy talking . . . one says: "What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?" The other guy answers "I don't know and I don't care!"

Joe & Jane America hears all of the above and says: "I don't know and I don't care!"

Let the good times role! Time for golding!! Have a good evening everyone.
SteveH
richard
Gold of August snoozing at $262.30.

Peter Asher
Richard
Great commentary. Sums it all up perfectly!!
USAGOLD
Farfel....
I should first of all say that the Saxton story caught my eye as well and I printed it for future study. I understand your concerns but let me allay them at least to a small degree until we can find the numbers and thereby gain a better understanding of what Mr. Saxton is proposing.

Let me first of all say that in my opinion Mr. Saxton lines up on our side of the ball and that his proposal should be considered both for what it is on the surface as well as what he might be trying to accomplish "philosophically" in behalf of all gold advocates both in our public positions with respect to the future make-up of the dollar as well as our private portfolios.

I completely concur with Mr. Saxton when he says if this sale is allowed to proceed it just opens the door to future sales proposals. We must understand that he is attempting to strike a blow against the internationalists by pushing for gold repatriation, and this "philosophical" positioning should be understood for what it is -- a stab at the heart of the International Monetary Fund. Believe me the Clinton administration will not allow this to just pass by without a throwing its main forces against it -- too bad for them Robert Rubin is headed back to the cozy confines of Wall Street while the opposing forces are gathering for this major battle.

But before you become overly concerned about the Saxton proposal, please keep in mind that if the gold is indeed returned to the contributors on a pro rata basis as it was contributed, the United States and Euroland will by far receive the bulk of this gold. I do not have easy access to the figures, and perhaps one of the other knights or ladies has kept a file on this, but I think the United States was the largest contributor by far. I think Europe would make up the next largest percentage. In both instances, I think you can be assured that the metal will not be easily dislodged once it is re-patriated. Even gold-selling, soft currency countries like Netherlands and Belgium would find it difficult to become gold sellers under the current political arrangement. Of course whatever goes back to Britain would likely be headed for the market at some point.

I think you probably know that any sale of U.S. gold would have to be approved by Congress and even Robert Rubin, and by proxy the Clinton administration, is on the record as favoring IMF sales and opposing U.S. sales. Rubin made a statement to that effect as late as a couple of days ago.

So perhaps the Saxton ploy is more prohibitive than it appears on the surface. I think he would be making a mistake though by saying the "cash from sales" would return to the contributing countries. This, of course, does nothing for us and I think it would be good if we sought clarification from Saxton's office in this regard. I don't think he really meant that though it appeared in the lead to the Reuters 6/28 story. It doesn't square with the rest of his position and for the moment I would attribute the report to the anti-gold zeal of some Reuters reporter.

If anybody has the IMF gold contribution figures in terms of percentages, I would greatly appreciate a posting.

Farfel, I understand your concern, but the above is my out- of-the-gate initial feel. You obviously bring up an important concern, but if my read is correct, you will find the gold repatriated a much better proposition for the goldmeisters than allowing it to remain in the hands of the International Monetary Fund. I would consider the repratriation of gold reserves to be the first toll of the funereal bell for the IMF. In this regard, Saxton's legislation might be considered not only timely, but politically brilliant. However, I think we should be prepared for a pull out the stops onslaught from the Clinton administration in opposition.
beesting
To Cavan Man#8208
Your question; What do I think about confiscation of main streets hoard?

First of all it would blatantly usurp the U.S. Constitution;
Amendment IV:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons,houses,papers,and effects against unreasonable searches and SEIZURES shall not be violated etc..etc..

Second, in 1933 when Gold was confiscated,it was being used by everyone as a medium of exchange, everyone had Gold.
Today is different, we have been encouraged by most Governments in the world to collect Gold in many forms,coins tokens,bars,jewlery, art forms,the list goes on and on. So presently," UNKNOWN COLLECTORS" own about 25000 tonnes worldwide.No one really knows who these "collectors" are. As in India(read my post from last night) Governments and banks might try to entice citizens to turn in their Gold in many different ways, but if you read the article from last night it seems the bankers were disappointed with the amount of Gold that was turned in.
I'm sorry Sir Caven Man, but my patriotic days are behind me and my family and loved ones come first,hence hoarding for their future as well as mine at all costs. I could go on and on about this but I have to run now, family obligation....Thank You for your question. Now give me your viewpoint on the same question......beesting
Al Fulchino
Town Crier/Dumping of Oil
TC, you said "what's wrong with us paying the cheapest price for our oil" Yes, I paraphrased.

What foreign countries can do to our national oil industry, by selling below our producer's cost, is scary. Does it seem to be anti-free market to try to stop dumping? Yes, of course it does. But I liken it to a father who comes upon his son, who is in the process of be severly beaten up in a fight. I compare the son to a very important industry. This son is pulled away from the fight.He is given temporary shelter and time to heal. Then He is admonished. Learn to compete.

This story is hard for me to reconcile because I strongly believe in the free market like I think you do. But more importantly, I believe in good will and bad will. If the alleged "dumping" did occur, then perhaps it is not done to simply compete. Perhaps, some country or group can see that
they can achieve more in terms of profits if they can just kill the competition. Perhaps too, there is the thought of compromising our will and security also. I am sure you will say "so what is wrong with better prices? Now we are paying less". I say, temporary gain. This country stands in the way of a very evil world. We must at all costs protect American industry. What this country stands for in its rule of law and freedom will be shunted aside when foreign sources control our industry.

AL
SteveH
August gold now...
$262.00, but asking $262.40, bidding $262.10.
longj
dribble and shoot off my mouth
Suppose:

a) Interest rates are raised �%.
b) The BOE sale does in fact take place, but is not for the shorts benefit.

This scenario will produce a fall in the POG, because the interest rate contango that driving force for gold shorts increases. The increase will be fueled by a better return in the bond markets, and an increased supply of gold. The increased supply of gold will drive down the lease rates and increase the contango. This is confirmed by the fact that short term lease rates have risen dramatically this week. Speculators are shorting the piss out of the yellow.

Suppose:

a) Interest rates are raised �%.
b) BOE sale is a sale to cover existing short positions, but takes place as scheduled.

This scenario will produce little change in the POG. The gold is already spoken for and will have little effect on the open market lease rates. Interest rate raises will not be exploited by the gold shorts, as they will be relieved to be free of the double whammy of a short position in gold and a long treasury position. Look for bond prices to fall and yields to rise as confirmation of this scenario, as the shorts liquidate USD bonds as well.

Suppose:
a) Interest rates are raised �%.
b) BOE sale is a sale to cover existing short positions, but takes place as scheduled.

This is a sign of a deeper problem for the shorts and demonstrates a commited, shift in the FED bias. This will produce a significant reaction from the stock market, and bonds will rally significantly. This will be a sign of an impending intention of the fed to roll the bull, gold will move lower, as shorts will not feel the need to cover, and the stock market will react to the prospect of a slowing economy. This will be a deflationary predictor, and an overreaction by the fed.

Suppose:
c) Interest rates are raised �%.
d) The BOE sale is a head fake.

Look for the POG to rise significantly as the lease rates have risen already in short sale speculation an borrowing on the knowledge that post sale prices will be higher. This is moderately bullish, and will lead to a short covering rally in the $10-$16 dollar range.

Suppose:
a) Interest rates are raised �%.
b) The BOE sale is a head fake

Look for the POG to rise significantly as the lease rates have risen already in short sale speculation an borrowing on the knowledge that post sale prices will be higher. This is bullish, and will lead to a short covering rally in the $15-$21 dollar range. This is confirmation by the fed that money supply expansion has led to a significant need to protect the dollar from inflation. This will mean that a significant measure of gold borrowing was done to evade falling equity prices and a future weakening dollar.

Suppose:
a) Interest rates unchanged.
b) BOE auction goes off as scheduled.

This would be an indicator that the FED has let go of the helm. Expect a significant stock rally, bond prices to fall and a small rally in gold as short positions are unwound, and the proceeds move into foreign currencies, as the dollar weakens. This would be a short term gold rally

Suppose:
a) Interest rates unchanged.
b) BOE auction is a head fake.

This would be a killer bull situation for gold. Contango would go down short term as shorts are forced to cover and possibly borrow to do so. They would likely be forced to liquidate other positions to settle short contracts. This would be augmented by a weakening dollar, with bond and equitiy sales. If the sharp rise in lending rates was the result of hoarders and not shorters we will enjoy some shift in metals market sentiment. Not the most likely scenario but it still gets a smile on my face.

JOPO, and an ignorant one at that.
SteveH
TA
http://www.the-privateer.com/g-bottom/g-bottom.htmlFrom a purely technical standpoint, using the bollinger band theory of analysis, I would be remiss to point out that technically the gold price could very well gap up and move $20.00 very quickly in the next two weeks.

First, the weekly gold chart shows that the POG (price of gold) is breaking away from a declining lower bollinger band. As I have said at the stockman forum many times, this is the single most powerful bounce indicator I have studied. See the above link. Find 1985 and not the three weeks of prices then the gap, same with 1982. Then look at 1999. Do you see the pattern and how it is quite similar?

Eventhough the above graphs don't show the bollinger, I believe the bollinger plot would have been quite similar to right now.

So, from a pure technical point of view, it could gap and move $20 any day now. If it doesn't, I will write it off to the scapegoat called manipulation. But you have to admit, awfully compelling techinicals, eh?
SteveH
TA
www.stockman-forum.com/ta-def.htm(BOL-C) Bollinger Band Crossover

John Bollinger observed that if Trading Bands were constructed based on Volatility of price, they would would contract and expand according to market forces, more precisely matching the price movement and identify overbought and oversold levels on the basis of observed volatility.

Construction:

In the construction of Bollinger Bands, Standard Deviation of price (SD) is used as the measure of volatility. SD is determined in the following manner:

If:
P = Number of Periods considered and
Nsd = Number of Standard Deviations used

Then:
MA = P-Period Exp Moving Average of current bar's Close
SUM = (Close, - MA)2 + (Close 2 - MA)2 + ... + (Closep - MA)2
SD = (Square Root of SUM)/P

Plot a P-Period Exp Moving Average of the Close. For each bar, plot MA + (Nsd * SD) to derive the upper band. For each bar, plot MA - (Nsd * SD) to derive the lower band. MetaStock and other programs use High and Low rather than Close in the calculation for MA to yield MA high and MA low. This also yields a separate SD value for both the upper and lower bands; SD high and SD low. SD high is then added to the MA high and SD low is subtracted from MA low to yield the upper and lower bands, respectively. This appears to yield slightly better results.

Parameters:

Periods: (P) The number of periods used in the Moving Average and Standard Deviations. Deviations (NSD): The number of Standard Deviations used in the calculation.

Trading System:

Bollinger observed that price moves originating at one band will usually travel to the other band. The Bollinger Band System trades when the Close enters the band (similar to the Trading Band system discussed previously).

The bands expand and tighten according to higher and lower volatility levels. This system also shows strong moves in which price originated at one band and moved decisively to the other band. This is the type of signal the system is attempting to identify. As with the Trading Band system, the Bollinger Band system works well in Trading Range markets.

-end-

Current range on weekly bollinger POG chart is $304 on the high and $261 on the low. The POG is looking at a bounce, technically speaking. Politics removed.
longj
base building
http://www.quoteline.com/cfxtemp/CFT0630_08094134B.gifBTW this is a classic basebuilding curve if ever ther was one... I'd not be surprised to see the little yellow balls of fire costing a bit over 2.764x10^-21 a piece next week.
Aragorn III
Farfel and USAGOLD
Farfel, You took issue with MK on this topic:

"plans to introduce legislation as early as this week that would prevent the IMF from selling its gold reserves unless it sells them back to the countries that contributed to its reserve. [an idea suggested long ago at USAGOLD!!]"

I do follow this forum closely, and offer additional thoughts for your consideration before you suggest that it is MK that has a poor suggestion. From my recollection of past posts, you have misinterpreted the meaning of the TownCrier. This idea was suggested weeks ago (by me) AT the USAGOLD forum, not specifically BY the host of USAGOLD. So on the surface, your issue lies at my feet. And although MK provided a very good response that could stand well on its own, let me share the context of the original remarks I made.

Many weeks ago when the comment was made, there was much doubt regarding this IMF sale, the agenda pushing it through, and notably Germany's reluctance to support the proposition. I suggested that the movement of this gold would not be a free-for-all for all comers, but that a specific recipient was perhaps in mind. Further, to make the sale palatable to the objecting members, of the total gold offered restitution of any objector nation's quota could be made as necessary. This seems to be close to the idea as presented in the report you have cited, and is likely the cause of the TownCrier's comment. Do I understand that you prefer IMF control of gold? That is a notable position of its own, and worthy of much debate. I prefer to hold what is mine.

MK,
I was able to find this from a previous post, though not from the one referred to above.
"Of its 182 member nations today, the EMU 11 represent 22.4% of the voting shares, while notably the U.K. has 5%, the U.S. has 17.5%, Switzerland has 1.6% and Saudi Arabia has 3.3%."
Please recognize that the voting shares indicated are in line with the gold subscription quotas. Of the EMU 11 countries, Germany would own over 6% and France would own over 5% of any IMF gold offered for sale. We are in agreement on this. I, too, see any gold restitution to these countries as a safe bet that this gold would not soon find its way into other hands.
SteveH
longj
Triple bottom on that base-builder. TA is showing signs of a bottom with enough possible good news for gold to help fuel the boost, eh?
SteveH
Center pole
Aragorn,

Seems like all of these players are dancing around the center pole but nobody wants to directly address the issue, to wit: physical gold is needed to cover in the market and unless we get this gold, some of these houses are in deep do-do.

Senator Saxton seems to say, ok, you want your gold, here...but you can't use it for what you aren't telling me you really want it for.

Gold for debt relief is pure spin-doctoring, nothing more.

Unless...consider this...gold were much, much, much higher. Say gold were at $1,000 or higher per ounce and then they sold some. Oweeeee...then they might be able to pay off some debt, eh? No...(scratching head)...it would have to be at $10K per ounce or more to relieve debt. So maybe all this spin-doctoring is to pave the way to loosen up gold so gold can be raised in price so it can be sold to pay off debt. Nahhh, couldn't be, could it? Whose got that razor (Osscam?) when you need it. Simplest theories are best, but nothing about this seems simple. Anyway back to the dance floor (and bed).
Aragorn III
Thoughts for Al Fulchino
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990629/bck.htmlYour image of the young boy being beaten is a good one to stir up sympathies, leaving little desire for us to investigate the circumstances that lead to that incident.

I recall you are at the downstream end of the oil market? In that postion, would you not find it easier to relate to your customers than to the producers? Your gas will flow cheaply to happy drivers, while the oil comes from "who knows where"?
You may enjoy reading the response of Mexico in the link I have provided. Please also read the the story being delivered by my good friend, Aristotle. The international cost of production and the Texas Railroad Commission might show your beaten boy to be something other than an innocent victim...the class bully taken down by the laws of nature.

Gold is not so easy to come by that we should wish to part with more than necessary to subsidize bad production, do you agree? If my neighbor may offer something more cheaply than I can create for myself, am I not best served to accept it?
Why do we not see these same countries complain of the cheap computers offered by the U.S.?

You are indeed right to believe in the free market and in good will. There may in truth be bad will, as you say, but perhaps in this case it is "bad production" that brings the bad will from those bringing forth the petition. Let the customer decide. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This issue of free trade has room for very many opinions, and yet I have given more questions than comments. Life is about learning, is it not?

got gold?
Aragorn III
SteveH, it is an interesting exercise in math to be sure
Somebody, not nobody, SOMEBODY will be writing off 60 - 90 billion dollars in non-performing loans. I hope you have been reading the recent work of Aristotle. He explains where much of this money originated.
So on one side, somebody "eats" this bad meal of many billions of dollars, but on the other side of the table this dish is being seasoned with a small amount of gold (an amount the world *thinks* is worth only 3 billion dollars). An idea should begin to take shape that money is not what you always thought it was.

got gold?
Usul
Fall of the moneylenders, Part 2
After a short interval of contemplation the wise old
gentleman came to a decision. He would bring to the
market a new source of funds for the people of the
neighbourhood, one which would not inexorably lead to a
piling up of debt that would let the whole market fail over
the imprudence of one moneylender, and one which would
not lead to the whittling away of the value of money. He
gathered some of the traders about him one day and
spoke:

"My friends, it is said that in ancient times this piling up of
debt was relieved by a 'Jubilee' which took place every 50
years. It should not be lost on you that this is to say, in
effect, 'once a generation'. All who were burdened by
debt were then freed. Now, even in modern times, there
are destructions of debt that come 'once a generation', but
as the more fortunate of us live for longer, it may be longer
than 50 years. These crises are not planned, as was
the Jubilee. In fact, our lords and masters do all in their
power to prevent it- but always, in the end, the economic
reality prevails. Sooner or later, the piles of debt and other
financial obligations become so great that any untoward
event that topples one of the moneylenders,
who owes obligations to another moneylender, topples the
next one, and the crisis soon passes down the line to
topple them all."

"Friends, you remain in need of funds for trade. But how
can you regain your trust in moneylenders? Would you
deposit your gold with any, knowing how they have fallen?
Would you take loans from any, knowing how they raise
charges and call in their loans before the agreed time,
when times are hard? I have given much thought to this
and will soon have more to discuss with you."
SteveH
Aug. gold now...
$262.80.
Cavan Man
beesting 8213
Actually, I was hoping to elicit some discussion on the subject of confiscation from you and the other Knights and Ladies. I do believe it (confiscation) is a real possibility; at least in the US because of precedent and the unsavory character of our political institutions. With regards to patriotism; when I attend a sporting event and place my hand over my heart to sing the national anthem, a chill goes down my spine; everytime. I love this country dearly but I, like you put family first. I also strongly believe in individualism and not collectivism and will not be worrying about the collective in the age to come. Good day to all, and, the next time you are at a sporting event in the US and you are standing near an individual who will not doff his ballcap when the SSB is played, kindly suggest that he remove his cap and show some respect.
Technician
Too much competition
Gold has had to compete with 300 dow points and collapsing CRB.
1) Dow rally is likely to end today since today is day it has been waiting for.
2) Consider that gold has shown strength not weakness in context of last few days.
3) wait for todays close before making decisions on liquidating any gold.
Clint H
Cavan Man #8227
This is the best I have seen on the subject of confiscation.

FOA (5/21/99; 11:50:51MDT - Msg ID:6572)
Further Comment
ALL: If you follow my logic in #6570, then you can also under stand why the US can never call in gold from it's citizens again! As long as they are using "dollars", the same dollars that were exchangeable into gold in the 30s, they cannot Replace it with gold. To reverse that decision
would open the American government up to lawsuits from local dollar holders to return gold at 41 (or whatever price). If they again, called in local gold, prior to re-backing the dollar, Everyone would demand, first the exchange of gold at the old price, then they would send in that gold! The
Government would "Never" risk it! Yes, they could call the dollar "dead" and issue a new gold backed currency for "internal use". See my last post to understand why a new
currency would be unacceptable "externally". But, that money would not function, as it could have no ties to outside transactions. Nothing would be gained. As noted before, they would most likely encourage gold holding by citizens while taxing the local gold industry and private transactions. Still, a dyeing dollar will spell massive gold increases
in value for private bullion holders as this proceeds. FOA
Clint H
Sorry!
Sorry, I only ment to repost FOA on Confiscation but the others are good anyway.
USAGOLD
Today's Gold Market Report: On Phoney Surpluses, Imprudent Politicians and the Fed: So What's Going to Happen with Interest Rates?
MARKET REPORT(6/30/99): Gold appeared at bit wobbly in the early going with all
eyes in the financial world glued to the screen awaiting the Fed's decision on interest rates.

The consensus opinion is that the Fed will raise by a quarter point not nearly enough to wet
the bear's whistle. So the defiance of the Greenspan Irrational Exuberance Protocol
continues. If the Chairman were the type to rise up in anger at the rude disregard exhibited
by Wall Street for his concerns about the mania , then perhaps we would get a surprise
today. But he is not so easily driven to anger and, beyond that, the markets don't believe
the Chairman has the stomach to take interest rates where they need to be to quell Great
Stock Market Mania of the Millennium.

The fact of the matter is that he probably cannot raise rates to the required level for two
good reasons:

First, the world economies now awash in liquidity would suddenly fall into apoplexy
should that liquidity be removed.

Second, a two point rise, which is probably what is needed to cool this economy would
take federal government interest payments to nearly half of incoming tax receipts -- a level
some would define as a bankruptcy, or at the very least, a bankruptcy waiting to be
declared.

The market knows this, hence the disregard for the chairman's concerns. On we
go.......ever higher stock values in no way associated with underlying corporate profits or
growth prospects. Instead, stocks have a become a new form of money -- mad money, if
you will -- supplied head over heels by the seemingly cornered and trapped Federal
Reserve. All in all, a modest rise in rates and an extravagant statement about future rate
increases seems to be in order. The question is: "Will anybody believe it?"

While we are on the subject of the budget I have a few words of caution for the
goldmeisters about this business of a budget surplus being trumpeted ad nauseum by the
Clinton administration. Interesting that it would begin just as Robert Rubin quietly closes
the door behind him and heads for the cozy confines of his beloved Wall Street. One
wonders if Mr. Rubin truly believes that the surplus exists.

The trumpeting by the Clinton administration along these lines reminds of the young couple
sitting at the dinner table discussing how they would spend their money if the husband's
salary doubled. The plans and the dreams flow in happy conversation, but the minute the
couple goes out and begins to spend this-money-that-doesn't-exist that family as a social
institution becomes threatened. Happily, most American families are not so foolish and
impractical as to spend large amounts of money that does not exist. Unfortunately our
government does not operate under such constraints or prudence for that matter.

Twelve months ago the accumulated national debt stood at $5,599,256,430,419.83 exactly
$51,321,686,860.02 above the $5,547,934,743,559.81 debt figure of one year ago -- in
case that's too many numbers for you, that translates to $51.32 billion of debt added in the
last 12 months. September marks the end of the government's fiscal year and quite often the
debt accumulates at a much faster rate as we approach year end. The add on to the national
debt for the fiscal year 1997 for example was nearly $100 billion. And the politicians from
both parties were telling us then that the budget was in surplus as well.

So when the Clinton administration talks about "spending the surplus" one wonders where
the self-delusion began and just how disingenuous politicians can really be. In Colorado,
where a strong economy has pushed our budget into surplus in reality, the Republican
legislature and governor worked to return that surplus to the people. A number of taxes
imposed in leaner years were wiped off the books, including the sales tax on precious
metals, and the state income tax was lowered by a quarter per cent. This is the way rational
and fair politicians deal with surpluses. Contrast that to this statement pulled from this
morning's New York Times article on the new Clinton Medicaid proposal:

"The economic context for Clinton's proposal could hardly be better. A vibrant economy
has generated a windfall of federal revenue. The White House said this week that it foresaw
surpluses totaling $3 trillion over the next decade. One in eight of those dollars would go to
shore up Medicaid under the president's plan."

Aside from the questions one could raise as to why the New York Times needs an editorial
page when you can blatantly editorialize within the context of a "news" story, one readily
sees the difference between the two approaches. One is designed to return the power of the
purse to the voters; the other is designed to further entrench the statist mentality that has
gotten us into this mess in the first place and, by the way, denies Alan Greenspan and the
Fed the flexibility to properly execute monetary policy. All very clever. What better way to
deal with a sore problem than to remain in denial about it -- and manipulate the people into
believing your delusion is in fact reality. In my view, the reason why the politicians in
neither party proposes to return that money to the taxpayer is that they know it doesn't
exist. And you cannot return money to the people that doesn't exist.

Enough of that for one day, my fellow goldmeisters. I'll leave the last two days' reports up
for further as they speak more directly to goings-on in the gold market where things haven't
changed much since yesterday. We patiently await the July 6 Bank of England auction.
beesting
U.S. may need higher rates to sustain growth-IMF
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/uq.htmlPlease read the above news release and understand better why soverign nations resent IMF interference in domestic financial affairs. As an American I was made angry when reading this release simply because the @!!#>>@#@! IMF has no right to tell countries(made up of hard working taxpayers) to work harder, pay more taxes,etc. etc. In my opinion if the IMF was disbanded poor countries wouldn't suffer economic hardships, like they are experiencing right now.

Or maybe this news release was a ploy to rile up the American public because the IMF themselves are in deep financial trouble....We watch together........beesting
koan
all the metals performing today
Copper, what a big surprise. Silver continues to march on in a constructive manner making new highs in a breakout mode. Only PAAS and cde participating with hl down and ssc flat, interesting. Gold is listless.
Good program on Frontline last night about HOT MONEY moving around the world smashing small economies and destroying their currencies. The thesis is that their is and international economy with no international rules. I could see how gold may be what is needed to protect these currencies which would mean much higher gold prices; and it gave more credence to the gold carry theory. I still like silver though. If gold goes silver goes. I think this is the big story, but not too much excitement from the bugs yet.
TownCrier
U.S. may need higher rates to sustain growth -- IMF
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/uq.htmlComing on the final day of the FOMC meeting. That's gutsy.
TownCrier
Bankers warn IMF, G7 against market interference
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/v6.htmlGoodonya, beesting, you beat me. In this one, the IMF takes its lumps.
Aristotle
Part 5--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market
...continued from Aristotle (6/25/99; 18:06:45MDT - Msg ID:8073) "Part 4"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/24/99; 6:17:53MDT - Msg ID:8007) "Part 3"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/23/99; 19:56:08MDT - Msg ID:7997) "Part 2"
which was continued from Aristotle (6/20/99; 15:31:21MDT - Msg ID:7839) "Part 1" found at:
http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/archives/2019996/default.html

Before I conclude this commentary, let me first express my gratitude to USGOLD for hosting this illuminating site, and for the tolerance I've been extended by so many here for my four long posts that up until this moment probably didn't seem germane to the topic of Gold. If you are joining this series late, I strongly suggest you first read the prior four parts which were given as necessary background. On any journey, the first few steps are the most important, and in this case they were also the most difficult--to include enough for context without drifting off-topic. This last part is easy. The task at hand is to provide an explanation of Gold's pre-eminence as a monetary asset. Gold is, in fact, Money, while the dollar and others are merely currencies--an importance difference!

I am not claiming to be offering new findings of my own. The inspiration for this series of posts originated from comments Aragorn III offered to a small group last month, and I have been challenged to render this tale into the clearest of terms suitable even for those not acquainted with Gold and worldly economics. If I have suceeded in my challenge, at the conclusion of this final part you will fully grasp how the free market has managed to provide a sophisticated asset (Gold) at a laughably minute fraction of its relative value. You will also understand how to justify to your WallStreet-enthralled loved-ones that Gold (metal, not stock) must be added to their wealth management plans. You will KNOW that Gold is Money, and will gain new respect for its "price." Although this information isn't "new," hopefully this explanation of financial operations with Gold, together with the background information of the 1970's Oil Crises will help you anticipate and conclude for yourself an outlook for events ahead, and will also help you to better understand and evaluate the important messages being presented by ANOTHER and FOA, in addition to the other worthy knights of this Table round. Knowledge is power, and with it your destiny shall be yours to decide.

To start, I'm going to paraphrase some specific remarks made by Aragorn that some people need to hear and think about, though most of the forum posters are already in tune with this. 'The falling price of Gold has had a remarkable effect on people. The common person says, "Of course, it is because Gold is demonetized." The Goldheart knows better, so the falling price has a more remarkable effect bringing out the insecurities and irrationalities of some. Though they don't question that Gold is money, they do start to question whether the world really needs money at all...that somehow this greatest device of mankind has been antiquated. Simply preposterous. If they knew the truth they would confidently buy today at triple the price and call it a bargain of a lifetime. People ask, "Why waste effort to dig up Gold from the ground, only to rebury it in vaults?" I say, "For the same reason the central banks toil to print millions of fancy notes that nobody reads. If you've read one, you've read them all." The effort is needed to prevent cheating, though we easily see the fancy cash does not stem the abusive tide of money for nothing. People also say, "Gold is a dead asset. It does not earn interest." What is the point of such a comment, to demonstrate their naivete? Did banks not pay interest when coins were stamped from Gold? You see, it is not the nature of money money itself to earn interest, but rather, it is the investment risk that maybe earns a reward. A modern dollar in a shoebox is as a Gold coin beside it. No interest for either. Interest paid by a bank savings account is not a product of the money itself, but instead it is the rewards on the risk the bank takes with the money you have provided for their investment use. Sometimes these banks choose poorly, and even the modern dollar earns no interest, and does not come back at all--lost with the closing of the bank doors. Money must be risked, invested, to expect a yield, and in this regard, the big players in the world risk Gold money as they do paper money (though often not as aggressively), while the small players are content with the shoebox yield. You must be more aggressive (more risky) with paper because it's value dies quickly, unlike Gold that stands forever, even in a shoebox of no risk.'

With that, I will now conclude this tale that shows Gold functioning in its role as Money much to the consternation of those who don't understand the big picture. As Aragorn recommended to me, because preconceived notions of words often cloud a person's ability to see the case before them, I shall try to deliver this message with the scantest use of such terms as Gold loans, leases, shorts, etc. In fact, I will be so bold as to simply refer to Gold as Money (but I will write it as such--"Money (Gold)" to ensure you know my meaning, but as you read, simply pronounce it as "money"). As far as what you might think is money (dollars, yen, pesos, etc), I shall from this point forward not call them money, but refer to them by their given name (dollars, yen, pesos, etc) or else will call them "fiat currency," or just "currency" for short.

Enough of the preamble. Let's pick up where we left off from Part 4. In days past, the oil exporters had been poor to modest contries scraping by when two things occurred. They discovered that they owned lots and lots of oil, and they also found that the rest of the world had developed a voracious appetite for oil. Think how different the world situation would be today if this supply of oil had simply never existed. We are certainly lucky to have its availability, and it is a reasonable expectation to pay fairly for all that we take. As bald as that statement is, it is necessary because some people have suggested (as Kissinger did in the 1970's) that warfare is a possible alternative to obtain what isn't ours. Such a world!

We've already discussed much of the turmoil that resulted from consumption that outpaced ability to pay. Payment in Money (Gold) was terminated, and many payment scenarios were developed in addition to the ever rising prices in paper currency. While it can be suggested that currency is a reasonable means in which to track balance of trade accounts (equating oil exports with similar value of infrastructure improvements as imports), it should be readliy admitted that paper currency is an unacceptable means in which to pocket one's profits. Book the trades with paper currency, but pocket the profits (savings) with Money (Gold). That's what I do every month, too! Paper currency was falling in value fast when it was no longer tied to Money (Gold), and this was causing international settlement difficulties on many fronts in addition to oil. It is instructive to investigate some of the tools of the international financial System, bacause what worked for Money (Gold) and currency back then, certainly works for Money (Gold) today. (Please reread the paraphrasing of Aragorn's money comments if you have forgotten them already.)

Back in the 1960's when dollars were still tied to Money (Gold) under the Bretton Woods agreement, the American penchant to spend for goods abroad let Kennedy's Undersecretary for Monetary Affairs, Robert Roosa, to fear a mass "cashing in" of these dollars in international hands for Money (Gold)--a run on the Treasury, so to speak. Roosa created a new financial device, referred to as a "Roosa bond," which was a special issue of Treasury bonds that were denominated in Swiss francs. As the bonds were sold to the world, they would sop up excess dollars with the terms that repayment at a future date would be in a given quantity of Swiss francs. Notice I said quantity, and not value. While these Roosa bonds stemmed the tide of a possible run on the Treasury, they ended up costing America more because the Swiss currency appreciated versus the dollar during the life of the bond.

In 1978, the U.S. issued 10 billion dollars worth of bonds denominated in foreign currencies (marks or yen) to milk extra life out of a dying dollar system, and the fix lasted until the 1979 Oil Crisis made mincemeat of it. It was an acknowledgement that some foreign investors wouldn't hold U.S. government obligations that would be repaid in dollars worth less than originally spent on the bond. Further, it was at this time that the U.S. promised to sell Money (Gold) from the Fort Knox stockpile to foreign central banks unwilling to hold dollars. (On his last day of office, March 31, 1978, Federal Reserve chairman Arthur Burns suggested that the entire $50 billion of the nation's Gold stock be sold for foreign currency in defense of the dollar, at which time the foreign reserves could be used to buy up the collapsed dollar in international markets. While this plan was originally rejected, within three weeks the Treasury Departmentwas forced to announce it would auction Money (Gold) on a regular basis. Treasury Secretary Michael Blumenthal pledged in a meeting two days later with top-level Arab businessmen that the integrity of the dollar would be defended vigorously, and asked them to do their part to stabilize the global economy by keeping a price freeze on oil in place at least through 1978. You should have no questions now about where the dollar found its value after the 1971 delinking with Money (Gold). The asking price by oil--influenced by many factors--set the dollar's value.)

It is also important to know that not all international arrangements are conducted on the open market. To avoid the German mark from being bid up in strength resulting in ever more people bringing them dollars for an exchange, the Bundesbank issued bonds directly to the Middle Eastern buyers, avoiding the marketplace impact altogether. This was at the time Saudi Arabia was swimming in cash and spreading the excess among the world's largest banks (as mentioned in Part 4). My point is this (which I shall expand on soon): don't be surprised that banks are far more creative in their operations than revealed in your common experience of savings and checking accounts and home loans.

Eliyahu Kanovsky, an oil economist, won renown by many for accurately forecasting long-term oil production and pricing trends by OPEC where all others had gotten it wrong. In the 1970's he maintained that economics, not politics, were the determining forces behind the decisions of OPEC. In 1986 he wrote in response to the prevailing notion that OPEC would eventually own the world as a result of its oil wealth: "It is, by now, abundantly clear that these forcasters committed gross errors not only in terms of magnitude of change, but, far more important, in terms of direction of change. Instead of increased dependence on OPEC and especially Middle East oil, there has been a very sharp diminution. ... Oil prices have been weakening almost steadily since 1981 and there has been a collapse since the end of 1985. Instead of rising 'petrodollar' surpluses, most OPEC countries, and Saudi Arabia in particular, are incurring large current account deficits in their balances of payments, and are rapidly drawing down their financial reserves."

In the 90's, Kanovsky maintains that OPEC has lost its ability to raise income through raising prices, and that oil below $20 is virtually assured. (This should remind you of Milton Friedman from Part 1.) Kanovsky claims competition among producers ensures an end to price fixing. They can only pump it and sell it for whatever the market will provide. He contends (rightfully so) that Iraq can be counted on to "pump like mad" upon lifting of UN sanctions. He also contends that with the current account deficits of many OPEC members, notably the Saudis, they have no option themselves but to add to the oil glut with overproduction to raise revenue. Since it has been brought to our attention by Kanovsky, let's take a look at the Saudi budget, and the toll taken on it in the aftermath of the Gulf War. IMF data reveals that the Saudi deficit climbed from $4.3 billion in 1990 to $25.7 billion in 1991. Oil had been selling at around $14 per barrel until June 1990 when Saddam Hussein pressured OPEC to raise the price to about $20 to help repair Iraq's national buget which had been wiped out and sent into the red by their 1980-88 war on Iran. Iraq's subsequent invasion of Kuwait in August 1990 temporarily spiked the price higher.

Here I must ask you to pause for a moment to reflect on those huge oil trade surplus figures we toyed with in Part 3, and recall that they were from early 1970's oil demand at a price of $11.65 that caused the First Oil Crisis. What happened to the vast amounts of petrodollar revenue that was being pumped into international banks, and recycled as fast as the loans could be written to borrowers throughout the 1970's? What happened to the earnings that was surely being generated on these deposits through the activities of the lending institutions? As I noted at the end of Part 4, the System miraculously survived the Second Oil Crisis of1979, and concurrently the skyrocketing price of Gold promptly abated in 1980. Kanovsky points out that oil prices started weakening in 1981, and then plunged in 1985. Force yourself to make the connections. You will be one step ahead of Kanovsky who has identified the effect, but no doubt has missed the cause entirely. Let us now tie together everything we know...

Historically, the price of oil had been simply posted by the producers for contracted delivery until it was unleashed to respond to daily supply/demand forces on the "spot" Rotterdam market, at which time the price exploded in 1979-80. Although the dollar had been historically fixed to Money (Gold), after it was unpegged in 1971, the currency price of Money (Gold) was determined by the daily supply and demand, similar to Rotterdam. Gold auctions began in May of 1978 because the U.S. had trouble getting international entities to accept its dollar currency. After "booking" their trade balances with dollars, the House of Saud, among others, wanted to "pocket" their profits with Money (Gold) and therefore competed with everyone in the world for Gold on the spot market. As the price shot right through $700 it was clear that every ounce purchased made it that much more difficult to purchase the next ounce. There was little trouble raising the price of oil as needed, except the financial structure of the world was coming apart at the seams. Each dollar withdrawn from intenational banks to buy Money (Gold) made life ever more difficult for the banks to square their books against outstanding loans. There had to be a better way. This is the better way...the return of Money!

The high price of Gold brought mining companies out of the woodwork. The Earth was crawling with geologist looking for the next jackpot Gold deposit. The mining companies needed capital to finance the construction of new mines. It is not strange to you to accept that banks can lend money. It should not be difficult for you to accept that banks can lend Money (Gold) also. Struggling with that thought? Don't. They lent Money (Gold) in the days prior to Roosevelt's 1933 confiscation of Money (Gold) in exchange for currency, and they can lend Money (Gold) today. In fact, they can even create Money (Gold) out of thin air, in a manner of speaking, and I'll walk you through it.

Sometimes a parallel familiarity assists comprehension. Consider the existence of Government-Sponsored Enterprises (G-SE's) such as the Federal National Mortgage Association (commonly known as Fannie Mae). Fannie Mae is in the business of creating financing for people like you and me to acquire a house. The government's involvement in this affair is that they underwrite the risk of a default on the repayment of the loan. Dollars are borrowed, dollars are lent, and dollars are repaid. It doesn't matter what happens to the exchange rate of the dollars versus other currencies. Dollars are owed, plain and simple, under the terms of the loan contract. If a home mortgage loan is sold on the secondary market, the purchaser of the loan is effectively buying not the house, but rather the rights to receive the borrowers repayments over a span of time.

Think of a loan to a mining company in a similar fashion. Interest rates on Money (Gold) are often much, much less than on currency because the Money (Gold) holds its real value over time, whereas the paper currency fails so fast you must return more for the lender to at least break even, not to mention show a profit for the risk. Because miners will be pulling Money (Gold) out of the ground, it makes the most sense to them to seek a loan of Money (Gold) rather than currency in order to finance their new mine construction. But because Caterpillar has its head in the sand, it requires dollar currency for the purchase of its mining equipment, so a Money (Gold) / currency exchange must be made. These arrangements take place in every conceivable fashion, but this example will be representive.

As 1980 arrived, the Saudis still wanted Money (Gold) for thier oil, and the world was low on liquidity. Much wealth had already been transfered to OPEC, leaving many countries struggling to service their own debts, with much of the credit existing as recycled petrodollars. Let the lending continue! Bullion banks would facilitate these deals, and central banks would act in the same capacity as with the G-SE Fannie Mae, guaranteeing ultimate repayment in the event of a borrowers default. In this simple example, the House of Saud could be looked at as the ultimate lender (although the borrower doesn't see this)...lending the currency equivalent of the Money (Gold) borrowed by the mining company for use to pay Caterpillar for equipment to build the mine. Because this is contracted as a Money (Gold) loan, Money (Gold) must be repaid over time. In a sense, it is similar to the Roosa devices where dollars are paid for the bond, with a fixed amount of another currency (in this case, Money (Gold)) expected to be returned upon maturity.

There is nothing sinsister in all of this. The price of Gold has fallen simply because the principle buyer at the Golden "Rotterdam market" has found another avenue in which to obtain the Money (Gold) desired in exchange for oil. This is very much like the Bundesbank offerings that I told you about earlier. Please appreciate the patience in this approach, and the commitment it shows to Money (Gold), knowing full well that for many years it would be getting ever cheaper while you yourself would appear the fool for buying it from the top all the way down. But the big payoff in the end is near, and I'll get to that.

With the simple but vital central bank guarantee against the default of these Money (Gold) loans, the House of Saud, for example, would have not qualms about supplying the cash side, effectively buying not the Gold metal immediately, but rather the rights to receive the borrower's Gold repayments over a span of time. Just like a home loan on the secondary market. And the Money (Gold) of the central bank need not ever move or change ownership unless the borrower defaults on the loan and the CB is obligated to guarantee payment.

Now that you grasp the basics, let's take things up one level. So many Money (Gold) loans were written, that the House of Saud spent down all of their past petrodollar surpluses. What now? It is time for banks to do what banks do best...create new money. This is the typical example I promised you earlier:

The miner approaches a bullion bank for a Money (Gold) loan. Let's assume the current dollar price of Money (Gold) is $400 per ounce, and the miner needs $20 million to pay Caterpillar for equipment. The bullion bank (such as can be found operating in the network of the London Bullion Marketing Association--LBMA) writes the Money (Gold) loan contract specifying the term of repayment of 50,000 ounces of Money (Gold) plus interest. The borrowing miner collateralizes this Money (Gold) loan with company stock, the deed to the mine, etc, and is sent down the road with $20 million in currency for Cat. Where did the cash come from? The bullion bank turned to the House of Saud, which is currently out of currency. However, using their oil in the ground as collateral, the bullion bank is able to write them a cash loan out of thin air (just like banks can do) with which the Saudis purchase the repayment rights on the Money (Gold) loan. They will be recieving future Gold for their future oil!

What does the bullion bank get for all this trouble? First, the central bank gets 1% - 2% for underwriting or guaranteeing the loan. (Just like the underwriting done with Fannie Mae.) The bullion bank then adds on top of this low interest rate an applicable margin for its cost of funds, and establishes the final interest rate for the miner that borrowed the Money (Gold). This rate might run 3% - 5% while currency loans would demand much more. Each year the miner produces Gold, and after paying the required amount of Money (Gold), the remainder of his annual production can be used to meet expenses. Because the big Gold buyer is no longer shopping on the spot market, the pricing pressure has come off, and prices could very well be expected to fall. To protect against this leading to the possible bankruptcy of the miner, and hence his default on the repayment of Gold, the terms of the Loan might also require that the miner lock in a certain amount of future production at the current prices (economists scrutinize the mining plan to ensure that it will be viable at current prices before granting the Loan) at the hedging counter. It should come as no surprize that the House of Saud would also step right up to purchase the delivery side of this hedged production. Enough must be hedged to ensure the mine will remain viable (even at lower prices) at least long enough to repay the Loan. Lets assume this mine is operating today with Money (Gold) at $260 per ounce, while their cost of production is actually $320. The current price of Money (Gold) is not a factor on the Loan repayment..they owe X number of ounces regardless. Any additional production would be sold under the terms of their hedge, at $400 per ounce, and they can pay their bills comfortably and stay in business. Is the House of Saud a fool for paying $400 long ago for the Loaned ounces, and for paying $400 today to honor their hedged ounce agreements? You or I could pay $260 today for that same ounce on the spot market! Has it become clear what you must do now with your currency?

OK, so what else does the bullion bank get out of this, other than the applicable margin mentioned above? It also collects the interest on the currency loan that was written using the 9 �0~�( �H�@����F�Kx�`@}�8�`�pH@?�|98^@pM�H���`�(�6�������,L5� ���x?��Kx��@p��R*chxB����f"�t@  ������?... |B��M�H� �F�u��@���@*�h��@�m�'"4����8/��:d �p�"��`Q�$@HB���ntos��S'���HS'�������@�" �� �p �"@��t���<���4� �... ��1� �p�"��h�� �p� �
Aristotle
Part 5 (part b)--- Life on Earth: Gold and the Free Market (continued)
...continued beyond the buffer limitation....

OK, so what else does the bullion bank get out of this, other than the applicable margin mentioned above? It also collects the interest on the currency loan that was written using the oil as collateral. You can see how the mechanism that has brought us temporarily cheap Money (Gold) over the years has also given us cheap oil not subject to the same shocks witnessed in the Seventies. You can also see why the economists can look at the Saudis balance books and see tremendous deficits where once there were surpluses that threatened to buy up the world. They have in fact bought up a significant portion of the Gold mined well into the future. Both Loans and Hedges bought all the way down from the top. Who are we to question whether to buy now or tomorrow, and to gripe over a missed opportunity of $10? The equation is simple. If you have cash, buy Gold immediately, because the downward trend has become teriibly unstable. Here's why...

The Hedge Funds saw how easy it was for miners to raise low interest capital, and further appreciated the fact that even if you yourself were not a Gold producer, the Gold could be repurchased on the spot market at ever lower prices. You could invest the capital received thru taking out this Loan (the infamous Gold carry trade would invest the currency into U.S. bonds that yield over 5%) and have a double profit potential. And of course, with the proper central bank guarantees, the House of Saud would be there to buy up repayment rights for these Money (Gold) loans also. The problem is that these speculating hedge funds have cummulatively driven the price so low (well beyond where mines would have long ago stopped seeking this type of Loan) that some unhedged mines are shutting down or going bankrupt. This aggrevates the spot market with thin supplies of real metal reaching it (due to so much production already having delivery obligations) such that it becomes hypersensitive to any real effort to make substantial purchases there.

The Hedge Funds will be in for a rude awakening, and the bullion banks are sweating because they swore up and down to the CB's that they were credit worthy of the CB Gold guarantees, and the important Oil Producer sees that the big bucks paid long ago for future Gold is now of uncertain arrival. And some miners, despite their hedges, have played fast and loose selling them for cash and buying back, and through general mismanagement have not been able to stay so viable as to ensure future delivery of the repayment terms. The CB's are sweating, because their guarantees were used over and over again, and they are on the hook for a lot of Money (Gold) when the speculators find it impossible to cover their Loan repayment obligations on the spot market as the price races away from them due to the hypersensitivity. Shades of Rotterdam. Does this give you new pespective on the push lately by some CB's to free up some Money (Gold) from the vaults, whether it is Bank of England, IMF, or maybe even Swiss.

It is this same currency, borrowed against oil for the purchase of Gold, that has added the massive liquidity to the world over the past decade and a half that many people have used in turn to fan the flames of the stock markets here and overseas. That's a lot of cash born unto Gold, and were it not for the prospects of receiving the real wealth of Gold, this supply of currency would have been stillborn, and oil would likely only come forth by way of brute force rather than by civil, economic means. I realize that I have left a lot out, but this should get you started along the clear road travelled by smart currency. Now, knowing what you know, what would you do with your dimes? Because this is really his tale, not mine, I'll leave you once again with perhaps my favorite statement made by Aragorn one evening last month among his old friends. "If I were given a dime for every time I cursed the market for providing easier gold, I'd have a dime...and that one was found on my way over here."

Everyone, your comments are welcome. And thanks again to MK for the USAGOLD forum and for the opportunity to obtain a world-class Money education and shiney yellow metal diplomas all at the same place!

Aragorn III, let me know if I have relayed the message to your satisfaction. Even though I struggled for clarity, the nature of the creature may require several readings. I'm certain that in my latest rewrite many typos crept in, and maybe some general blunders to boot. Please feel free to repair the errors, and assist with the Q & A sessions that will surely follow.

Easy Money. Make you some. ---Aristotle
beesting
BANKERS WARN IMF!!!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/v6.htmlSorry Townie I should let you do this, but I think a major economic war is developing click above URL........beesting
TownCrier
Gold stuck in range, ignores lease rate puzzle
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/h2.htmlUncertainty surrounds the BoE gold auction next Tuesday.
Aristotle
A quick word to the Round Table expert-economists
I should offer my apologies for the folksy fashion with which I provided that commentary. My ultimate purpose was to circulate it among selected friends and relatives of mine, and unfortunately, some of them possess a temperament that would not tolerate a more scholarly disertation. Hopefully the brainiacs at the table will find its tone entertaining rather than demeaning.

The sentiment remains the same however...

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle
TownCrier
A path is cleared for the movement of synthetic gold from the UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_381000/381999.stmHEADLINE: Breakthrough in euro chocolate war

Wow. This is offered as light reading, which is in order after Aristotle's magnum opus.
TownCrier
Mexico, S.Arabia, Venezuela to fight dumping probe
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/yu.htmlHere's more on the oil dumping allegations, but few questions are answered.
TownCrier
Tea leaves for the a.m.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/rc.htmlIMM currency futures mixed early in thin dealings. NAPM higher.
TownCrier
Public Opinion Research Shows Overwhelming Support for Gold in the U.S. and Europe
World Gold Council
PRESS RELEASE
Wednesday June 30, 12:00 pm Eastern Time

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 30-- The American public opposes by a margin of more than two to one the Clinton administration's support for a proposal that the IMF should sell a portion of its gold reserves, while the British public opposes by a margin of five to two, their government's plan to sell more than half of Britan's gold reserves according to public opinion surveys carried out on behalf of the World Gold Council.

Commenting on the research which was presented today for the first time in the U.S., George Milling-Stanley, Manager of the Gold Market Analysis at the WGC, said ``It seems clear, in many instances, public policy seems to be out of step with public opinion.''

The unique series of surveys which examine public opinion in five of the world's leading economies has revealed that the public is highly supportive of the role of gold as a reserve asset for governments. The public in all of the countries surveyed feels that gold plays an important role in promoting public confidence in national economies and currencies, and people are very concerned that their governments should maintain or even increase the level of gold in their reserves.

The research was conducted during 1998 and 1999, in France, Germany, Italy, the U.K. and the U.S., to measure public attitudes toward gold reserves. The surveys also researched opinion on several issues of immediate interest. These included the introduction of the Euro, the new single European currency; the U.K. Treasury's decision to reduce Britain's gold reserves to less than half of the current level; and the proposal that the IMF sell a portion of it gold holdings.

Two of the world's leading opinion research firms, TN-SOFRES in Europe, and Opinion Dynamics Corporation in the U.S., conducted the surveys. They tested for the first time the assumption that people do not care how much gold their countries hold in their reserves, or that the governments and central banks that decide to reduce their gold reserves are acting in accordance with the wishes of their citizens.

The research shows that on the contrary, the public cares deeply about gold's role as a monetary asset. In all of the countries surveyed, overwhelming majorities say that a strong currency is important to a healthy economy, and their countries' gold reserves are important to the strength of their currencies. Huge majorities want their country either to maintain or increase the level of gold reserves.

The research results and analysis have been compiled in one volume entitled ``Gold and Public Confidence,'' published today by the World Gold Council. The data show that the public in Europe and the U.S. are remarkably consistent in their attitudes toward a wide-ranging group of topics involving gold reserves, monetary issues and international finance.

The research shows that respondents in France, Germany and Italy believe the new European Central Bank should hold at least the same proportion of its reserves in gold as their own central banks. Polls in the U.S. and U.K. reveal that large majorities believe gold should remain the primary asset supporting their currencies and an important part of the world monetary system.

In other highlights:
**67% of Americans surveyed want gold to be the country's primary
reserve asset.
**The public in all countries surveyed believes that gold reserves
are important to the strength of the currency and economy.
**85% in France, 67% in Germany and 68% in Italy favour the ECB
acquiring more gold to augment its reserves in support of the
euro.
**Majorities in the U.S. and Europe agree that strong gold reserves
provide protection against future shocks.
**Respondents in Europe and the U.S. say that having gold reserves
provides their countries with economic and monetary independence.
**Respondents in all countries say that gold reserves connote
``security, independence, confidence and value''
**Majorities ranging from 56% in Germany to 73% in Italy say they
would be concerned if their country sold its gold reserves in the
wake of European Economic and Monetary Union.

Mr. Milling-Stanley added: ``The strength of the public's support for gold on both sides of the Atlantic and the fact that people want to maintain or increase their nations' gold reserves, will come as a surprise - perhaps even a rude awakening - to several governments, central bankers, and gold market commentators.

``We hope that everyone, especially those public officials acting on behalf of their citizens, will be sensitive to this resounding expression of the attitudes and wishes of the people. Governments that want to sell their gold reserves are out of step with the wishes of the people who elected them.''

METHODOLOGY
The survey questions were organized into three broad sections:
1. Attitudes regarding economic situation
2. Attitudes toward the respondent's national gold reserves.
3. Perceptions concerning gold's usefulness and characteristics as a
reserve asset.
In Europe, the survey samples were 1,000 citizens representative of the general population in each country, providing a margin of error of +/ -2.5%. In the U.S., the sample size was 800 for a margin of error of +/-3.5%.

The World Gold Council is an association of leading gold mining companies from around the world with the aim of promoting global demand for gold.
Gold and Public Confidence will be published on June 24, 1999 by the World Gold Council, 444 Madison Ave., New York, NY 10022.

Issued on behalf of the Centre for Public Policy Studies, World Gold Council by Marston Webb International, 60 Madison Ave., Ste. 1101, New York, NY 10010 Telephone (212) 684-6601 Facsimile (212) 725-4709
Cavan Man
Aristotle
Thank you. Secondly, there seem to be threads nay, thick lengths of rope tying your thesis on the revered subject to those of Another and FOA. Do you know those fine gentlemen? Is your analysis 100% a product of independent thought and research or, did you embark upon your journey for knowledge after reading Another's THOUGHTS. If the former, then the case for Gold presented by four fine intellects makes a poor knave like me feel especially good about my meager purchases!
TownCrier
Hear ye! Hear ye! THIS WEEK IN GOLD has been updated.
http://www.usagold.com/wgc.htmlThe Weekly Gold Market Commentary by the World gold Council has been once again provided to USAGOLD. Click the link above to review commentary by WGC staff worldwide on matters that affected the gold market for the week June 21 to 25, 1999. This week's report is one of the most interesting ones in this reporter's short memory. Check it out!
TownCrier
Fed statement on interest rate rise -- .25%
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/990630/5c.htmlBy adopting a neutral bias, is the Fed saying the economy is on a razor's edge?
Technician
Bottom is safe
Gold has again confirmed my call of a bottom 21 June. My crude is more fun but I have a feeling gold will be playful for a lot longer than we might imagine. If you happen to be long futures hang in there with a moving average. Don't take premature profits. And oh yes, buy more bullion coins:)
Think I will check on how my DROOY is doing;)
mike55
Bubble, bubble, ......
The Fed announces 25 basis points and the Dow shoots up 146 points to close at 10,961. The mania is at such a pitch, one wonders if they had announced 50 or 75 basis points, would the gain have "only" been around 90-100? Some analysts quoted as looking for the high 11's in a few weeks. Glad I'm not in the market deep. Oh, and by the way -- watch out for that first step, it's a doozy!

Keep tradin' that paper for metal!!!
TownCrier
5th Horseman--NYMEX Oil Review: Crude hits 19-month high on stock data
By Mary Chung, Bridge News
New York--Jun 30--NYMEX energy futures soared on weekly inventory data
showing drops in US crude and gasoline stockpiles last week. Aug crude
jumped 93c to hit a high of $19.37, a level not seen since Nov 26, 1997.

Aug crude jumped nearly 5.0% following US Department of Energy data
showing a surprising 1.7-million-barrel drop in US crude stockpiles, while
American Petroleum Institute data reported a 488,000-barrel decline last
week.

Jly heating oil jumped 278 points or 6.07% to hit a 17-month high of
48.60c, despite weekly inventory data reporting a 1.18 million barrel rise
in distillate stockpiles, according to API data, while the DOE showed a
300,000 barrel increase last week.

Jly gasoline also jumped 239 points to an 8-week high of 56.20c,
helped by DOE data showing that stockpiles dropped 2.6 million barrels
last week, while the API reported a 1.105 million-barrel decline.

Meanwhile, the market may have also been supported by news of a
lawsuit filed Tuesday by a group of US independent oil producers, charging
Mexico, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Iraq of unfair trade practices in the
Mexican-US oil market, through the use of discriminatory pricing and the
use of subsidies.
Mexico's Energy Secretary Luiz Tellez said the country would
"energetically" fight the US anti-dumping complaint. (Story .18614)

OUTLOOK
Most brokers and traders predict that NYMEX crude futures could move
higher Thursday following today's strong close.
"The APIs, DOEs provided us with the momentum to go higher," Kilduff
said.
"It enables us to make $20.00, (a level not seen since Nov 20, 1997) which
is an appealing target."
Aug crude is expected to test resistance at $19.45 and later at
$19.70, which could trigger stop-loss orders to buy, some brokers said.
However, some brokers predict that the contract could weaken to test
support at $19.20 and later at $19.05. "I think the market may start to
come off a little," a broker said. "Some profit taking may (push) crude
back to the $19.00 level."

But bullish brokers and traders predict that a pullback could spark a
flurry of buying activity, which will drive the market higher. "Any
pullback is a buying opportunity," he said.

(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN
The Stranger
Comment on the Fed's Move Today
First- Ari, I am very excited to see Part V make its appearance. I will read it as soon as I return from getting my "hawg" registered. (Yes, Turb, I am a "biker", and today my registration expires).

Anyway, this is just a quick comment, incase some poor fool cares what I am thinking about the Fed's action today. Obviously, A.G. is challenged by the need to put caution in the minds of speculators and deficit spenders, and to do so without endangering the worldwide recovery. Today's decision to raise fed funds by 25 basis points, and simultaneously remove the tightening bias, was the softest warning to the markets A.G. could possibly have sent. The message: "We want you to slow down, but for awhile, at least, we will continue to accomodate growth and worry about inflation later."

The markets have already responded. Such gentle persuasion is a waste of breath. As a result, long term interest rates are nowhere near a top, and those who were buying today were sorely misguided in doing so. For gold bugs, the happy news is that, in a very public way, reinflation has now been accorded the Fed's seal of approval.
The Stranger
Clarification
The second to last sentence in my prior post should read "...those who were buying BONDS today were sorely misguided in doing so."
TownCrier
NY Precious Metals Review
By Tina Petersen, Bridge News
Washington--Jun 30--Aug gold finishedhigher, settling up $1.60 at $263.6
per ounce on fund short-covering in a choppy market.

Aug gold remained rangebound in thin trading, bolstered by silver's 8c
gains. Traders said gold has been oversold prior to the UK Treasury's gold
auction Jly 6.
"Gold had been hammered down based a lot on the fact that people thought
that the Bank of England sales would depress the market," said a trader. "But
80,000 ounces worth of sales in a market that trades 32 million ounces a day is
like 2 trades for a major bank."

One-month gold lease rates are at 2.35%, up 100 basis points from Tuesday.
"As long as lease rates remain tight, it could fuel further buying," said a
trader. "It's very expensive to be short metal. Some are now buying it back."

Traders said that another bullish factor influencing gold is that there is
growing opposition to IMF gold sales.

In the news, South Africa's Finance Minister Trevor Manuel says the IMF
approach to gold sales has to be "exceedingly cautious" in the coming months.
Speaking at a briefing in Parliament, Manuel said he would worry about the
wisdom of blocking outright the IMF gold sales and other actors such as the
Paris Club and highly indebted governments needed to play a role.

South Africa President Thabo Mbeki said today his government remained
"preoccupied" with the issue of gold sales and its effect on South African jobs.
Speaking at the Opening of Parliament today, he said: "Consistent with our
concentration on this objective, including the critical importance of jobs,
the government remains preoccupied with the issue of gold sales and their impact
on gold mining, employment and export earnings, both in our own country and the
rest of our Continent."

--Aug gold (GCQ9) at $263.6, up $1.60; RANGE: $263.8-261.6

Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.crbindex.com/
No further reproduction without written permission
SteveH
Aristotle
Fine work!

Conclusion:

25 tons of gold from BOE auction will be well oversubscribed.

Amount of gold being suggested for immediate sale by the BOE and IMF and Suisse would appear to be the amount of gold needed to satisfy guarantees by CBs (or bullion banks, maybe). So the market is short at least 500 tons of gold on the non-COMEX hidden market. 25 tons seems to offer some relief.

COMEX is not being used as a source of physical delivery because it must be known not to be a source of physical and is left to play out the low price. (So why haven't any big guns gone for big delivery here?)

Source of Gold Eagles would seem to come from US sources of gold, perhaps strategic stockpile and that is why we don't see that record demand reflected on either COMEX or LBMA.

BOE auction may be beginning of end of low spot price in gold as it becomes widely known that H of S has cornered the physical and future gold market.

Relief valve appears to be a physical delivery of outstanding gold to CB's that will likely require the price of gold to rise to $10K to $30K per ounce in order to free up sufficient gold to square all deals. This of course would freeze the COMEX in its shoes and leave no contract delivered or settled. It would further bankrupt those owing gold other than miners and the banks that loaned cash to them.

Gold stocks might see an instant 10 fold spike up in price until countries realized almost immediately that gold in the vault and ground were equally valuable. Then depending on the country the mine is in depends on the outcome. I would place my bets of recompensation from a US mine first.

This is why all the dancing around the pole. Too bad this whole scenario is so damn complicated (requiring above a 12 grade reading level). I must reread the portion about how the H of S plays into this. Other than that I think I've got it by jove. Good work Aristotle.
MOZ
The .25% Rate Increase And The US Budget Surplus
My son got a brand new cassett tape of fairy tales today,the first story is 'The Emperor's New Cloths'.I could'nt help but grin when I heard the economic news today.
USAGOLD
Mr. Insider:
Long talk with Mr. Insider this afternoon. He is now bullish on metals. Says:

1. Lease rates on gold are rising -- a bullish signal -- since the lease pool of gold is diminished. He repeats "Watch lease rates as they are the key to this market." Lease rates have doubled. If they double again, the lid's blown off this market, he says.

2. Rumor making rounds today that Britain is calling in its gold leases to have the gold on hand for the auctions. This is what's behind the rising lease rates.

3. Another rumor making rounds today is that two MAJOR traders (who shall remain un-named) are taking delivery on silver. That is....taking delivery, not simply squaring positions.

4. He says the World Gold Council ad campaigns (particularly the one in Britain this morning which had government phones ringing off the hook), coupled with the growing gold "constituency" in the United States (which is having a positive effect on the U.S. Congress with respect to the IMF gold question) are changing the face of the gold market and international finance.

5. No one should trade on this information as it is nothing more than rumor and speculation. We present it for information purposes only as a matter of interest to the Table Round and our readers.
CoBra(too)
@ Aristotle #5 & #b - Great Synopsis

Very much appreciated your effort to explain the ever increasing controversy on market's exhuberant valuations, official(ly) denied and even belittled -see the outcome of todays's FOMC meeting, which is IMHO a truly misleading signal and will further enhance exhuberance- , I find your (and Aragorn's) reasoning more than refreshing and well founded.
Apart of the shoe box, I've been stunned by your remark about the Bob Roosa (BBH - probably the last uncorrupted Wall Str. firm) -SFR Bonds, similar to the Guiscard Gold bonds, which both cost a lot of money(gold) to the issuers-but at least it was fair.
BTW-I knew you would add part 6 - part 5.b. - a very noble way to avoid more stress.
Thank you again for regaining some of our purpose!
searching
The Stranger And Aristotle
I have been out of town until today. I just wanted to say thank you for your input on my question on the proper asset mix. I really do learn a lot from all of you Knights.
The Stranger
Aristotle, Worthy of His Handle
Ari- Thanks for a real education. Your achievement should be required reading for all who take a seat here. The oil-gold connection has been so oft-repeated, without adequate explanation, that I had taken much of it for hype. NO MORE!
As one misinformed critic after another piles on to the mindless defamation of two of earth's most precious resources, truly you come forth grinning like the cat who ate the canary. GOOD SHOW!

One question: how is it, or should I ask WHERE is it, that you got to meet Aragorn? I think you once mentioned a pub, which conjures up London to me. But somehow I picture the two of you high in the Himalayas jointly contemplating the universe.

Al Fulchino
Oil prices
There is new pressure to raise the prices on the street. Confirmation received today. Watch the street in the next 30 days. Not a big move but a small rise nonetheless. Don't you wish you could store the stuff?

Al
Al Fulchino
Aristotle
Thank your for caring enough to share your 5 part discourse. Wonderful reading and informative. I almost must confess it was in part a painful read. By that I mean this. You brought back a lot of memories from my teen years and early 20's. When I was a child in the sixties, I saw a beautiful world. The seventies were a conflict filled time for me. The world was not innocent I learned. Beautiful, but not innocent and the financial and political world that you described were so often a reflection of so many bad things. SO I compliment your writing and your vantage point. You write well and conveyed your points well.

Al
Gandalf the White
Ari's presentation of eye-opening truths!
The Hobbits and I truly thank you for your vivid explainations of your meeting and conversations with the GREAT one Aragorn III. I can tell that you did not have too many pints, as your memory is still sharp and all inclusive. I only wish I had been there to drink the brew that you failed to consum. GREAT JOB !! and now, with your permission, may I start the presses and reprint the five parts and start my efforts of "conversion" of the non-believers? Addenda will be added as necessary.
<;-)
koan
excitement abounds
Everything looks great. Will there be follow through tomorrow. Oil and copper and the crb are just smoking. Abx and nem the big winners, plus some quality juniors. Major silver stocks did nothing; however word on the street is that the silver supply tightness is real. This is one of those rare times when you hate the holidays because you have to wait an extra daqy nest week for the mkts to open. If we get follow through then we can start trading around. Generally, the majors go first, then they stall while the juniors and then pennies play catchup. I have never seen the stage more set for a precious metals rally - so we shall see. Here's hoping.
Al Fulchino
AragornIII
Your views are well expressed of course. And you are as correct as correct can be in regards to the boy in my analogy "not" being innocent. My concern like yours will always be that the free market and the consumer make the ultimate decision for us. When in the long run have we been disappointed by what it brings forth?

My concern in this matter is that the fountain head of free enterprise and the goodwill that needs to be behind it, *IS* fostered by a strong America. The fine line is to keep American industry from becoming a bully that the public distrusts. Without a strong energy industry in this country we will be in jeopardy of losing our freedoms of liberty, financial dreams and eventually or borders will fall. The question for our leaders is to have fostered a strong energy industry that is also not abusive of its incredible power when it is healthy. So we need to keep the other countries at bay for what damage they can do to us, yet at the same time keep an energy industry that is competitive. I realize that we want free enterprise to handle the competitive aspects, but we need to realize our enemies and we do have them, will having taken over our energy industry, undoubtedly bring to us other dictates that we are not likely to be pleased with.

Thank you for your thoughts. And I hope this unwashed writer
did you justice in return.

Al (wishing I could purchase some more PM's)
Al Fulchino
power outages
We have had two violent thunderstorms the two previous nites. And last night (the second of those two nights), we lost power for about 5 hours. So my son and I said "good time to check out the new generators. We did find a wiring problem that our electrician will fix. But the point of this message is this. Five gallons went fast in those 5 hours. I was staring at the fuel guage on the machine and it hit me.
I will need 15-30 gallons per day IF Y2K really is anything.
It is awful cold up here in New England in January, February and March. So even figure 100 days and 20 per day.
Hmmm.2,000 gallons? Have you all thought about this? It's one thing to take a wait and see attitude and another to plan for it. I needed the wake-up call. Maybe someone else out there does to. Thus, I post this.
I am going to read some alchemy books. Does anyone know how to change pm's or food into oil?
ET
Technician

Hey Tech - congrats on some nice calls. Crude is rolling as well as silver. What was the deal today with copper? Up over 5 cents! I heard something on the radio today about Phelps-Dodge shutting down a mine.

It is interesting that the bond market couldn't take out the previous high. I doubt we'll see that happen. Look at the US dollar chart. Looks like a very weak triple top on a short term basis. I like your DM play.

Do you trade grains? These babies are in the tank and showing no signs of recovery. I cruised western Kansas the last couple of days and the wheat harvest is finally making some progress. Yields are very good despite the fact that it is so late. We're expecting very hot weather the next week so I would expect they'll get it cut very quickly now. Just a small problem finding enough labor but the harvest looks good. Corn and beans look great around here. I don't expect prices to climb at all unless the dollar completely tanks.

Thanks for your contributions. I'm an old technical trader myself but haven't been trading this year. I've spent the last year or so doing y2k preps.

ET
Technician
ET
Regards ET

Yes, $ has a very weak triple top and DM is best play. I been nibling a few times, in and out with wash trades. But close to a concrete buy I think.

ET, call me crazy but gold may have a gap opening not to be filled. Real baby bull with lot's fun ahead;)

Copper and crude were easy I can read charts plus I have my own software developed over the years. Just keep them with 8/16 weight average closing basis.

Grains look pretty sick and piggies etc but I will play them on long side, one day.

Would not choose to give my web wite out of respect to USA gold, on line, but my email is edwin_pu@yahoo.com. Non-commercial, just like to pass on my thoughts:)

62 and seen lot's this stuff!

Technician
ET
Stranger
Hey Stranger - how ya doing?

You wrote in part;

'Anyway, this is just a quick comment, incase some poor fool cares what I am thinking about the Fed's
action today.'

Who, me?

'Obviously, A.G. is challenged by the need to put caution in the minds of speculators and
deficit spenders, and to do so without endangering the worldwide recovery. Today's decision to raise
fed funds by 25 basis points, and simultaneously remove the tightening bias, was the softest warning to
the markets A.G. could possibly have sent. The message: "We want you to slow down, but for awhile,
at least, we will continue to accomodate growth and worry about inflation later."'

You've got that right. Windowdressing. They can't afford to derail the economy going into y2k. They certainly don't want people selling anything.

'The markets have already responded. Such gentle persuasion is a waste of breath. As a result, long
term interest rates are nowhere near a top, and those who were buying today were sorely misguided in
doing so.'

Yup - long rates are going to sky from this point forward. Watch everybody howl as they jump quickly to 7%. Nobody is expecting this. The concensus seems to be rates will remain steady. Big joke on them.

'For gold bugs, the happy news is that, in a very public way, reinflation has now been
accorded the Fed's seal of approval.'

Sure. That's always been the deal. What else can they do? The US economy is holding up the entire financial system. I don't believe this reflation will be successful. US consumers as well as the government are about as far into debt as they can get. The bond market action is testament to that.

ET
THX-1138
USAGOLD on Mr. Insider
On the rumor that BOE is calling in loans to have gold available for the auction:

Does this mean that they announced the sale of 25 tons of gold that they didn't even have?


Isn't that lying, false advertising?

Very interesting rumor.

THX-1138
ET
Aristotle

Hey Aristotle - great work! I hope Mike adds it to the permanent collection.

The only thing you haven't told us is how we get invited to these meetings.

Thanks again for a fine effort.

ET
USAGOLD
Here's the article Mr. Insider referred to on the WGC ads in British newspapers this morning. Sorry it it was already posted.
Wednesday June 30, 5:04 pm Eastern Time

Company Press Release

U.K. Gold Sales - Overwhelming Response
to 'Hold Onto Our Gold'

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 30, 1999--Floods of irate British
citizens choked telephone lines yesterday to protest against the Labor
government's decision to start selling the U.K.'s gold reserves next Tuesday.

Several thousand callers ran a freephone number to register their disapproval of the gold auctions, which start with 25
tonnes of gold reserves going under the hammer on July 6. Another 390 tonnes are scheduled to be auctioned, leaving
Britain ultimately with just 300 tonnes of gold reserves.

Countless other callers were unable to get through as the switchboard of the call centre fielding the calls was swamped.
``In 10 years of operation we have never had such a response,'' said a spokesman for the call centre concerned. At one
stage the call centre's switchboard was so heavily log-jammed that its system crashed. Forty operators have been hired
to field the calls, which continue to come.

The callers are responding to advertisements in Wednesday's editions of the London newspapers - The Sun, the Daily
Mail and the Daily Telegraph - placed by the World Gold Council, which works on behalf of many of the world's
leading gold mining companies.

The advertisements read: ``If you can tell the difference between gold and paper, tell Gordon Brown before it's too
late,'' and exhorted the government to ``hold onto our gold.'' Gordon Brown is the British Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the British equivalent of the Secretary of the Treasury.

At one point the number of callers succeeding in getting through was almost 1,000 an hour, a vast number given that the
advertisements had only just been published. There were also hundreds of faxes sent in, again protesting against the
gold auctions.

``This is a staggering response, far beyond anyone's initial expectations,'' said Haruko Fukuda, Chief Executive Officer
of the World Gold Council.`` It underlines the fact that the vast majority of the U.K.'s citizens do not want the
government to sell Britain's gold reserves, which are the rock upon which this country's economy rests in times of
crisis,'' she added. She said that opinion polls conducted in the U.S., Germany, France and Italy have shown that an
overwhelming majorities of those polled are in favor of increasing their nation's gold reserves and believe that gold
continues to play a central role in world finance.

Miss Fukuda said that the WGC will be presenting the results of the direct-action vote against gold sales to the British
government as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the telephone lines are still open to the British public up to and including
Tuesday, July 6, and the Council have urged any British citizen or indeed any British expatriots who want to see the
British Treasury reverse its position to make their opinions known.
ET
Technician

Hey Tech

You wrote in part;

'ET, call me crazy but gold may have a gap opening not to be filled. Real baby bull with lot's fun ahead;)'

Gutsy call on your part. The 500 pound gorilla appears alive and well. You realize of course that if you are correct, it's the end of the financial system as we know it. The price of gold is about the last thing they have to hang their collective hats on.

You may be right but I believe they still have a few rounds left in their arsenal. We may have seen the bottom but I'm unconvinced at this point we will see any kind of significant rally. Now if silver jumps a buck in the next few days, forget everything I just said.

I'll send you a mail. I'd enjoy seeing your site.

ET
USAGOLD
THX-1138
You fogged my memory on a couple other comments from Mr. Insider this afternoon:

He said that the rumor was that the reason why the BOE didn't allow inspection of the gold is because they didn't have it. Have to say that he chuckled when he told me the story, as if to say: "Anything's possible when you're talking about the gold market." Once again I must warn that Mr. Insider was very emphatic that all this comes under the rubric of "rumor" -- interesting gold market gossip at this point and nothing more.

He told me something else of general interest. He knows an academic of prominent stature who has studied the gold leasing stiuation in great depth. His conclusion is that it doesn't matter if most of the central banks were to decide to sell their gold because, in essence, the metal has already been sold anyway! (He thinks that 10,000 tons loaned might be low, believe it or not.) When the sales come up, much like the British sale, the cb's will have to call in their loans to sell it, thus driving up lease rates and the price! Though I don't think we will get sales to that extent, it adds an interesting twist to the leasing story nevertheless.

As I have said so many times before, countries do not sell gold because they want to, they sell it because they have to. I would still like to know: Why did Britain find it necessary to part with this gold?
USAGOLD
Oh boy....not again
That's supposed to be "jogged" not "fogged".
The Stranger
Top Ten Reasons ET is called ET
#10- Thought it stood for Enjoys Tulsa.
#9- All of his best ideas come from something he et.
#8- His economic forecasts are strictly from outer space.
#7- After he makes his killing in the gold market he has no intention of ever again phoning home.
#6- Hides his gold coins in a large bowl of Reese's Pieces.
#5- Thought it would help him learn the Elliot Wave (think about it).
#4- Every time gold goes down, enjoys saying OOUUUCHHHH....
#3- Thought it stood for Extra Testicle.
#2- Wants everyone to think his posts are out of this world.
And the number one reason Et is called Et is:
#1- He only looks okay on Halloween.

ET...thanks for your reaction. I have been told I have a keen grasp of the obvious, so I don't always expect to get feedback. I am starting to think that BoE is going to be one of those dramatic market turning points, like LTCM or the Hunt silver fiasco. Hope so, anyway. Thanks again, ET.
ET
Technician

Hey Tech - sorry but my mail service is screwed up. It keeps telling me my password is invalid. I haven't a clue what's wrong but it has been an ongoing problem. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'll try again tomorrow after calling my ISP.

ET
Sailor
ARISTOTLE'S WORK
Aristotle was once (in Latin) called 'The master of they who know,' and I would greatly appreciate a link to a summary of all the five parts. Many thanks.

By the way, it looks good for gold. Central bank selling can slow the process down, but I'm expecting:
1. rising interest rates, and a long-term secular bond bear mk.
2. gold rising, modulo short-term dips.

It'll reverse only when US debt gets under control, is my guess, which is why we had Prez. Klingon saying the US would pay off all their debt in 15 years. Of course, this is just talk. Watch the bond rates rise once the market realizes that nothing has changed.

Dan
Cavan Man
Al Fulchino 8264
Al.... I was just going off on atrip when I saw your post; curious that you should use the term "fountain head" "of free enterprise; Fountainhead of course is a Ayn Rand novel. My friend, I have just finished reading Citizen Soldiers by Stephen Ambrose. How I and many others long for THAT AMERICA. The comprehensive strength of this country is at least temporarily diminished. All is not lost but as I sit here and type, I truly believe we are a nation of wooden men and iron ships as my father is fond of saying. Liberty, freedom you say; our individual freedom and liberties are being eroded incrementally by socialism's march of folly. Sadly, the financial dreams of many Americans will not be realized. We need a wake up call! Hello, anybody out there? The 4th of July is my favorite holiday. God Bless America (and have mercy on us). Amen.
Cavan Man
Al's 8264
Sorry for the typos. I also meant to say that I do not believe the US could win a war like WWII at this point in our history. Look out in the Balkans. It ain't over yet.
ET
Stranger
Hey Stranger

My wife is on the floor laughing her tail off! She says you have great insight. When Letterman starts analyzing my posts I'll know I've reached nirvana.

Believe it or not, I agree with your analysis of the BOE. They seem to be in a state of panic. Aren't the BOE and IMF hoards the last of the available gold that might reach market to satisfy claims? It looks like short squeeze city to me.

Just an aside - I used to have a bike but I kept falling off the thing so I sold it and got a Corvette. I've recently rebuilt the engine and I'm running about 450 horse. Somehow it's easier to keep on the road than that damn bike. Thanks for the note. Keep the shiny side up.

ET
Gandalf the White
Is the GC9Q line in the sand at 264 ?
The action in afterhours trading on GC9Q is moving up slowly and has hit 263.9 before dropping a tenth or so. BUT the size of the ASK side at 263.9 is now 166 contracts!!! --- WOWERS, is that the defensive line for the shorts ?
<;-)
Peter Asher
The bitter Y2K Truth
http://www.drivezero.com/herbal/framec/lampoilc.htmlThis may be the definitive article on the coming day when all the lights go off!!
Peter Asher
Al, re your fuel guzzler post #8265
First of all, are you heating with electricity?? If so get a wood stove or two. Also, it's not to late to super-insulate, create solar gain through southern glass (with exterior insulating blinds for night, which are also good security) and possibly close down some of the house for the winter. Combining all options can cut unbelievable percentages off you heating energy needs.

We did a design recently where the forced air return duct was in the wall of a vaulted ceiling above a living room wood stove (small size, airtight, burned very little wood). The owner went through the Portland winter running only the fan motor (very little current draw) and the duct system heated every room in the house on a minimal amount of firewood.
turbohawg
Aristotle
That was quite a feat packing a history of the modern economy in five relatively short segments. It buttresses the case for gold well on more than pure monetary reasons.

So, what's next ?? May I suggest a primer on man's role in the cosmos ??

By the way, the lack of economic jargon was refreshing. Lately, I've been distancing myself from the news, the internet, economic/political debates, and all things that have been distracting my focus from simply enjoying life ... and it's (arguably) restoring my mental health.

Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.