USAGOLD Discussion - October 2003

All times are U.S. Mountain Time

Aristotle
(10/01/2003; 00:01:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109649)
Smeagol, how about modifying your question
Might as well include nickel at 31.4 cents per troy ounce. I wonder if anyone's logic will see that one doubling first.

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Aristotle
(10/01/2003; 00:53:34 MDT - Msg ID: 109650)
Belgian, nice to see you back in good form
Hold onto your hat, it looks like the winds of change are beginning to blow!? You and Townie brought up a point about the management of the global monetary system serving lop-sided interests in the nick o' time because it looks like the present system isn't delivering net political benefits to its long-time masters -- to the degree of pain that the breaking point is perhaps drawing nigh.

To the extent that our top political leader, none other than George Bush himself, voiced in on the matter in front of some businessmen in Chicago that China needs to "make sure that China's got a monetary policy which is fair."

HA! Ain't that a riot? We're suddenly interested in FAIRNESS! Ain't we a noble breed of savages over here after all!!

Speaking of fairness from the mouths of political leadership, I saw you mention Blair's "survival speech" in your last post. I caught part of it on C-span (before it was unceremoniously bumped for live coverage of some insignificant and irrelevant committee meeting of the US House of Representatives.) If I remember aright, the presentation of the speech was "A Future Fair for All." So there it is again, for the second prominent time in the same day. FAIRNESS. What little of the speech I did see I thought to be a nifty piece of work.

Metaphorically, especially with regard to the dollar Masters, when the executioner finds fortune has changed, thus putting his own head on the block, an appeal to "fairness" rather makes for a shabby and yet grimmly ominous sounding plea bargain, wouldn't you agree? In a "reap what you sow" sorta way.

It's easy for the rest of the world to be intimidated by U.S. policy and pressure, which makes any international progress toward non-hegemonic structures a slow and laborious undertaking. But now, are we seeing cracks in the door, and is it too much to expect that the pace toward the inevitable will quicken as the players perceive a rare opening?

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 00:54:14 MDT - Msg ID: 109651)
More people losing homes
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/6896331.htm
Snippit:

Foreclosures continue to soar in North Texas, with the homes that are posted for auction in October at the second highest level this year. There were 2,715 foreclosures in North Texas during October, 48.6 percent more than a year ago, according to the Foreclosure Listing Service, which tracks foreclosure activity. The North Texas area includes Collin, Dallas, Denton and Tarrant counties. Foreclosure listings in October are compiled in September.

The increase came as a surprise to George Roddy Sr., president of the Foreclosure Listing Service, who said foreclosures had leveled in recent months after rising in the spring. "We were projecting that it would flatten out on the high side. We weren't expecting any spike ups," he said. But, he said Monday, foreclosures are likely to continue at a high level unless there is a drastic change in employment. The local foreclosure numbers seem to be in step with the national trend, which has also shown more foreclosures between the first and second quarters of 2003, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association of America. Some lenders are also aggressively lending money to get people into homes, Rollins said. Last week, he said, he talked to a family with a household income of $24,000 who had a contract on a $120,000 house.


Black Blade: The Refi party is over! This is just the beginning of a national trend too. Add in the higher taxes from rising home prices as well. Then there's the real estate bubble that will eventually bust leaving people paying more on homes worth a lot less. As always, get outta debt and stay outta debt, stash enough emergency cash for several months expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a nonperishable food and basic necessities storage program.

Belgian
(10/01/2003; 01:06:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109652)
The Enormous Power of the Financial Machine....
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/images/chapmand092903a.gifHaving the planet's dollar-reserve-currency seriously weakening AND interest rates going down !!! A gigantic plunder of all those who honestly earned illusionary confetti in wich they keep on believing as representing their wealth. Same story, but worse, will happen for the $-TRILLIONS invested in the ten thousands of Funds. How easy it is to fool so many people for such a long time.

Use your eyes to "see" or you will have to use them to "cry".

World stockmarket Index will halve and US$ lose another 20% according to my TA/TI. I consider this as the best case scenario. This will happen under a lot of full moons.
Look long and from the right distance to the Chapman double chart (link) : US dollar-index "DOME" and POG "BOWL" !!! These are extremely powerfull (reliable long term) patterns not easely to be reversed !!! There's even much room for surprise technical reversals without disturbing/breaking the evolving pattern (trend). Sit thight and have a very good morning.
DummyANI
(10/01/2003; 01:27:43 MDT - Msg ID: 109653)
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 11 27,754�c plus0512 �c 381.1(Dec.2003)
Sep. 12 27,810�c plus0056 �c 380.8
Sep. 15 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....376.9
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
Belgian
(10/01/2003; 01:57:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109654)
Morning Ari,
And Tony stated, with even more passion, that... HE WAS NOT BUSH'S POODLE !!!,...waf, waf !!! OK, fair enough.
Main point about UK is its function as the transatlantic link between US and EU. Under Tony, the UK gives 100% support to the US (and the dollar)...this might change when Tony can, must take a 180� turn (become pro euro to survive politically) or takes over from John Major (Thather's poulain and successor) and leave the political scene for a Carlyle job !? UK "IN" EMU would make a Big euro-difference.
That's the Gold link in our comments about the UK (briefly explained for the newcomers on the forum).
Have a nice day, Ari.
DummyANI
(10/01/2003; 02:24:03 MDT - Msg ID: 109655)
Another viewpoint of Yen-dollar relations
Rumors said that money from USA were poured into Tokyo stock exchanges. According to Japanese Department of Treasuries data, the inflow of capital for Tokyo Stock Exchanges from Oct. 2002 to May 2003 were total 133 billion dollars.

Their average buying costs of TSE was 8,000 point (Nikkei225 index), and its Yen-rate was 122 Yen per dollars(from Oct. 2002 to May 2003).

If these stocks were already sold at Sep. 2003, their average selling costs of TSE was nearly 10,500 point. and 21.4 trillion Yen was gained. This 21.4 trillion Yen was waiting for a chance to exchange. If G-7 Dubai meeting was not opened, and Yen-rate was 122 Yen per dollars, Wall Streets money were exchanged into 175 billion dollars, net 42 billion dollars per year were transferred from Japan to USA.

Yesterday, the Yen-rate was 110 Yen per dollar, and a trading volume was huge. If 21.4 trillion Yen was exchanged yesterday, Wall Streets gained 194 billion dollars, net gain were 61 billion dollars per year. G-7 meeting was contributing to 19 billion dollars bonus to Wall Streets.

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
The Invisible Hand
(10/01/2003; 03:58:07 MDT - Msg ID: 109656)
Fairness vs. Prudence
Aristotle mentioned in msg#: 109650 that Bush is now referring to fairness.
Where did Bush find that word?
Well, probably with the liberal (in the American sense) philosopher John Rawls who advocated that Justice was Fairness in his books "A Theory of Justice" (1971, revised in 1999), "Political Liberalism" (1993 and 1996) and "Justice as Fairness- A restatement" (2001)
As Milton Friedman wrote however in a 1977 Newsweek article ("Fair vs. Free"): "There is a role for fairness, but that role is in constructing general rules and adjudicating disputes about the rules, not in determining the outcome of separate activities."
Fairness is thus only applicable to court proceedings.
In daily life, the only obligation is to act prudently, i.e. with prudence which (the first) Aristotle called "phronesis". China should only act prudently which is what it is doing.
Bush is thus arguing as if he was an attorney directing the court how to solve the case. But there is no case and by the way who's the judge in a free market? What did Adam Smith say?
Remarx
(10/01/2003; 07:51:19 MDT - Msg ID: 109657)
What happens afterward?
I have recently joined the ranks of those who are believers in gold. But I am having trouble envisioning what happens when gold does reach a price peak relative to currency.

Whether it is US $450, $850 or $3,500 (assuming you have identified the peak correctly), is one supposed to sell for paper at that time before it drops? Or should he/she continue to hold it irrespective of the market price because of its long-term stability?

I am speaking here of the 5% - 15% security stash that is recommended for households, not that used for profit trading. I guess it may not be a choice at the time of peak price because the economy may be in such bad shape that it will have to be spent. But if that is not the case, shouldn't one hold it and pass it on as a legacy if it is never needed for emergencies?

If that is so, it would seem that even large fluctuations in the POG are almost irrelevant to those of us who are not traders. Or am I missing a large key point?
Basil
(10/01/2003; 08:26:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109658)
Remarx--What happens afterward??
My uncle always used to say(1985)-- own gold as insurance, but pray you never make a real bundle because if this happens the country/world will likely be in such totalmess the profit will be moot.

He had a point,but one's ability to survive cannot be harmed by having a well secured stash of PM imo.

Assuming law doesn't confiscate via outright theft or excessive profit taxes,there would hopefully come a tranquil time to unload gold for good farmland,other productive real estate,or move somewhere else.

But if conditions warrant ie chaotic,riots,inflation'starvation,eotwawki,etc-- maybe best kept hidden for one's heirs and a happier time.
Great Albino Bat
(10/01/2003; 09:02:07 MDT - Msg ID: 109659)
Bush talks about "FAIRNESS"

This is delicious irony. Sounds like something from Gilbert & Sullivan's "Mikado".

Buy gold today, and hum "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime" while you go fishing.

The GAB
Belgian
(10/01/2003; 09:24:13 MDT - Msg ID: 109660)
@ Remarx msg #109657
Great, fundamental question you are throwing in here !
Speculate, gamble or make your confetti work with trying your luck with any kind of gold-paper-trading. Buy, accumulate Physical Gold in Possession when you intend to preserve, accumulate, transfer your "WEALTH" ! It is the amount of Gold (your weight-?) that you are able to accumulate that says more about your wealth than the temporary, altering confetti-price you see it marked on the markets.
Gold has always been (past 5,000 yrs) and will remain (next 5,000 yrs) the ultimate confirmation/affirmation of real tangible "WEALTH". One's health,... water,...oxygen,...food,...love are other forms of basic wealth, but much less reliable for generational transfer.

One can impossibly project/identify a "price" peak for Gold-Wealth, into an unknown/uncertain future. Exchanging your Gold-Wealth for the confetti-numeraire is going back to square one. Than you have been holding Gold-Wealth for the purpose of speculation and might run the risk that you lose your wealth or the temporary confetti-fortune that you made with that wealth holding. Fortunes are made and lost. Gold wealth is designed to stay if one wishes it to stay. Not diamonds but GOLD is supposed to be for ever.

And Indeed Sir, that's why POG fluctuations are irrelevant for Gold Wealth holders !

The only reason why POG gets/deserves so much attention NOW, is that we are questioning/quessing Gold's chances for re-valuation...re-confirmation of its wealth definition.
Everybody "finally" agrees that Gold has been (still is) manipulated * price-wise * for the reasons that are elaborated in the CPM archives.

Americans saw their Gold confiscated and weren't allowed to possess Gold Wealth for the next 40 years. Then 30 years of Gold manipulation ! That's almost similar to 70 years of communism that finally imploded without one single drop of blood !!! Not that Gold and communism have something in common, but the timespan (70 yrs) during wich people can be fooled/brainwashed is coincidently similar.

There should only be ONE SINGLE reason for Gold accumulation, being the consolidation of one's "wealth" regardless of the price at the moment one decides to do so !!! I, personally believe we will see back those Golden times, within our (my) lifetime.

Gold will commonly be called-named "WEALTH", again...when the existing monetary dollar-system has become unworkable for the service of the economy and the (old) golden alternative(s) pop up again. If Gold was really death and fossiled, no interventions (containment)(confiscation-banning) wouldn't have been necessary. But our wonderfull monetary system needs more and more and MORE intervention as time goes by. Cfr. un-natural, un-workable communism !!!

Don't tell us you joined the gold-ranks "recently" ! Your question is a very smart one ! Thanks for sharing it here.

Belgian
(10/01/2003; 09:50:14 MDT - Msg ID: 109661)
Further dollar-decline....
...and an *organized* flight into stocks (higher) and bonds (lower IRs-higher bondprices), initially !!! Another BIGGG HUGEEEEE sucker-rally into already, absurdly OVERVALUED, worthless paperrrrrrrrrr !

The propagandists of the so called "recovery" (a jobless one = modern) get a helping hand as to make the non existant recovery a self-fulfilling happening. Will NOT work guys.

Ford-Belgium cuts 3,000 jobs (more later) ! �/$ pierces 1,17 - $/yen 1,10 ! Euroland exporters have hedgded the dollar at 1,20. POG remains frozen ! Stockprices recover (humm) and the unemployed see their stocks rising at home. Cynical, isn't it ?

Wish to borrow BB's oneliner,...interesting times !
contrarian
(10/01/2003; 10:13:49 MDT - Msg ID: 109662)
stock crash?
Not to make this forum about stocks, but I'm wondering if we gold folks, myself included, are counting on a stock crash that may not happen soon? Food for thought, anyways...any thoughts anyone? (this posting was from gold eagle forum)

Rats! Looks like no crash this year! Maybe not much of a sell-off iether-I highly respect Bernie Schaeffer & he makes
(richard640) Oct 01, 09:04

good points here!
From Schaeffer Research
"The economy is on track for accelerated, non-inflationary growth. The huge deficits and the weak dollar are
positives rather than negatives. The Fed can keep interest rates low for as long as they please. And inflation
is not, and will not be, a problem."
Consensus view of "the usual suspect" economists,

September 2003
"You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes well you just might find you get what you
need."
The Rolling Stones
The prevailing view of the community of economists is so over-the-top rosy and so widely held that it simply
begs for a contrarian take. And the fact that this constituency has time and again proven to be so shockingly
inept in their forecasting adds an understandable sense of urgency for those of us of the contrarian
persuasion.
But the active contrarians (read "short sellers") are unlikely to get what they want (read "a stock market
tumble or, better yet, a crash"). Why? 1. Because there are way too many short sellers. 2. Because they've
shorted way too many shares. 3. Because they've been shorting the wrong stocks. 4. Because cheap put
options are being purchased by weak longs that keep them in the game and prevent them from panicking on
pullbacks.
A more rigorous explanation is contained in the above quote from Taleb. The "rare event" (in this case, a
stock market crash) cannot occur unless the market is unprepared for it. Certainly one can argue that equity
mutual fund managers (who hold little cash) and Wall Street (which recommends holding little cash) are not
prepared for a crash. But my perception is that a growing proportion of those fully invested in equities have
taken out some protection in the form of put options, and a portfolio protected by puts becomes exempt from
panic liquidation. There are, for example, open put options equivalent to well over 100 million shares the
Nasdaq- 100 Trust (QQQ) in the front October month.
Beyond the increasing prevalence of put protection, the huge and growing short interest in exchange-traded
funds, such as the QQQ (which is currently shorted to the tune of over 300 million shares) and in low-priced
tech stocks, also indicates a market that is prepared for a crash. Not only must short interest be covered on
rallies (thus producing fuel for further gains), but short interest represents shares that have been "pre-sold."
And shares that have been "pre-sold" represent shares that will not be sold of market decline.
Looking for an example of a market that was ripe for panic? Let's turn to 1987. Back in the weeks ahead of
the October 1987 crash, the strategy of selling naked put options was hugely popular as the belief spread that
the market could only continue to rise. In fact, naked put selling was so prevalent that the premium levels on
out-of-the-money S&P 100 Index (OEX) put options were actually lower than the premiums on comparable
call options - a situation that has never repeated itself subsequent to the 1987 crash. So not only was the
market ahead of the 1987 crash not "pre-sold" and not "put protected," but there were huge open-ended bets
that the market would not even decline by more than a few percent. And when the market began to weaken,
the monstrous exposure to loss of the naked put sellers resulted in a full-blown panic.
But will the economists then get what they want, with their happy consensus view proving to be correct? I
view this as extremely doubtful. As I see it, the shorts will get what they "need" in terms of a market that will
not cave until they are forced to capitulate big time. And the economists will get what they need in terms of an
economy in 2004 that is disappointing, perhaps to extreme." (September 25, 2003)

Jacob Marley
(10/01/2003; 10:14:18 MDT - Msg ID: 109663)
Remarx - Large and key point---

Forgive me as I do not have time to give this full treatment (the Trail will give you as good a treatment of this as you need though). Basically, the dilemma you describe is based in a world view that still sees there to be this endless struggle between gold and some global currency that is by design to be in competition with gold (obviously here this has been the US dollar these past XX years). The gist of the coming days is that nations, whether through the vehicle of the Euro, some Islamic nations thru their gold dinar and its concepts, or China (should they decide to go their own way, and not align directly with the euro faction), will be able to wean themselves, and consequently large portions of the worlds economic product, from the US dollar paradigm -- that is this currency that is endlessly in competition with gold.

That having occurred, any of the above, or any combination of the above is a gold-friendly outcome. Gold detente, instead of gold entente. So, the fears you are concerned about -- which are basically, "well, gold goes up in times of peril, but as soon as the dollar economies get their acts together, gold goes back down as stability is again attained." Well that won't hold true here in quite the same way.

True, a goodly chunk of gold's appreciation in this cycle will occur as a result of manifesting dollar inflation (manifesting is a key word here). This is the one-off you are focusing on. Timing would be important here, as either a re-strengthening of the entente'd dollar would cause gold to inversely reciprocate back to where it started, or the economies catching up and the principal of monetary neutrality taking effect (ie. where they just add zeroes to the price, but the net effect after time is nada, since you are now earning extra zeroes, too.) would cancel out your gains.

A transition to a gold-detente paradigm however will allow gold to also gain in real value, a value level that has been artificially suppressed not just for the days of the dollar's reign, but effectively in degrees all the way back to King Alfred.

Every time an economic system develops around fixing a nominal value to the metal unit, eventually notes acting as proxies that are somehow redeemable for the metal units end up circulating too. It is here that a gold-entente is created. Human dynamics expressed in their banking and financing systems only work to force this tension to its breaking point and then some. And then some more... It is the old story of people always lending/selling what they don't have, and others borrowing/buying what they cannot afford or satisfactorily collateralize. This leads to all the efforts that can be mustered to at first keep the proxy unit at par with the backing metal, even though these proxies get inflated to the heavens, and after parity is understood to be something you are supposed to laugh at, the system then breaks, and we move on to something else. This is the currency time line that is often spoken of here.

What is unique in this day, is that the major powers in varying flavors are designing and deploying monetary units that stem from gold friendly banking paradigms: ECB marks its gold reserves to market. China/Russia, and others publicly announcing that they intend to increase their gold reserves. Dinar as a circulating, "UN"denominated currency unit. China encouraging and opening up a physical gold trading market. WA that gold will "remain an important element of global monetary reserves". And the beat goes on. This, for whatever the results are politically, and whatever bumps may be brought about socially, are fundamentally obviously gold-DEtente-ish moves. Ie. no functional tension between gold and the money (the banking and financing systems).

Bottom line, gold will reach new AND permanent valuations. For those who were smart enough to have purchased in the 200s, they will never lose that. Gold will never in our lifetimes be so cheep again. So, you will have it for your savings. Savings are something you sometimes use, sometimes not use. You sell some and spend it, you save the rest and give it your kids. Giants do this. Just follow in their footsteps.

Gandalf the White
(10/01/2003; 10:33:18 MDT - Msg ID: 109664)
HERE IT IS, Sir Smeagol --- Thanks for the opportunity to enter a RIDDLE
Smeagol (09/30/03; 23:53:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 109648)
****** A Riddle *****
===
Thanks Sir Smeagol and Sir Aristotle for the Question ~
First of all --- IF ANY of these three, Gold, Silver OR nickel, DOUBLE in a very short timeframe, it will because something DISASTEROUS has happened ! I and the Hobbits do not wish that to happen. As the US$ declines because of its almost freely exchange for the work efforts of the world's productive peoples, the PRICE of the most IMPORTANT WEALTH reserve ( GOLD ) will SLOWLY increase ! THAT is the GOOD increase of VALUE !
Increased industrial demand is the only way that Silver and nickel have of a doubling in price ! To obtain that result, the workforce in the USA must start to produce SOMETHING physically that requires silver and/or nickel.
DOES anyone think that will ocurr soon ? NOPE !
THEREFORE -- I must conclude that GOLD will possibly DOUBLE first -- BUT I SURE HOPE that it ocurrs VERY SLOWLY, as my heart can not take many MORE MAJOR DISASTERS !
<;-)
Gondolin
(10/01/2003; 11:11:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109665)
Belgian 109654 UK and gold
Belgian,

I concur with your (and I believe Anothers') viewpoint on the position of the UK with regard to support for either the USD or the euro- eventually it seems that they will go one or the other, and all indicators other than common anglo roots and history would suggest the euro must eventually be the way the UK must move.Contentious that comment sounds I know and I believe the UK has been dismissed on this forum I know as 'a lost and directionless Island'.

Within the UK (and EU) there is no VAT on gold transactions. This must be surely the ONLY thing tangible or not, that is not taxed in the UK. Can anyone explain why such a useless relic of little worth has escaped Gordon Browns rapacious tax clutches? Is this because certain elements of society possibly use bullion as their main tax dodge? For an anti gold establishment the Government actually makes gold ownership in the UK look extremely attractive in the current low inteest and high tax environment.

Comments anyone (WAC I knpow you may have views on this as a fellow UK resident).
Paper Avalanche
(10/01/2003; 11:21:40 MDT - Msg ID: 109666)
@ Jacob Marley (10/1/03; 10:14:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 109663)
Sir Jacob Marley,

My hat is off to you. That was one of the best summations of what this forum is all about that I have seen in a long time. I will be emailing my freinds / family a copy of that post and a link to this fine forum.

To the gang:

I nominate this post for the Hall of Fame. Any seconds?

Take care.

Paper Avalanche
Remarx
(10/01/2003; 11:39:07 MDT - Msg ID: 109667)
@Belgian, Basil, Jacob Marley: Thanks!
I thank you (for myself and on behalf of my children) for your collective thoughts. I went back to the ABCs book and re-read the part on gold as a store of wealth. The gist there and here seems to be that forever "saving until needed" is the wisest course, ignoring its fluctuating value in currency except as an indicator for changes in monetization.

P.S.
I second the nomination of Marley's message. (But I also thought Basil's and Belgian's points were good.)


Trurl
(10/01/2003; 12:10:43 MDT - Msg ID: 109668)
Please tell me why
This was seen a few moments ago on an "internet portal" site:

Market Overview
Wed 1:53pm ET
The blue-chip averages spent the last half hour drifting sideways along their session highs, while the Nasdaq continued to reach higher and set a fresh session high... The gold sector remains the only laggard of note... Its weakness coincides with a -$1.10 decline in the price of gold to $385/oz...more

------------------------------------

It might be worth contemplating why somebody feels compelled to use half of a short market summary to tell small investors that gold is down a buck.
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
(10/01/2003; 12:33:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109669)
Build your wealth. Call for bullion at 1% over cost, FREE shipping on 25oz. ---- (800) 869-5115
http://www.usagold.com/gold-coins.html

Golden Goal




"Treasure chests throughout history
have been filled with gold, and not by idle choice."

-- R. Strauss

doco
(10/01/2003; 13:11:47 MDT - Msg ID: 109670)
Patriot Act makes banks pry into new accounts
Patriot Act makes banks pry into new accounts
By Laura Bruce � Bankrate.com


"To deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes."
-- From the Patriot Act, Congress, Oct. 24, 2001

The anti-money-laundering provisions of the Patriot Act are about to be noticed by consumers who open new accounts with financial institutions. Even if you have a checking account with a bank and you decide to open an IRA or a savings account with the same bank, you can expect to be asked some prying questions that may make you uncomfortable.

Banks, savings associations, credit unions, brokerages and mutual funds are expected to comply with the provisions as of Oct. 1.

Background checking
Here is what is required when a new account is opened:

A. The institution must verify the identity of any person seeking to open an account by obtaining customer identification that includes:

1. Name
2. Date of birth
3. Address
4. Identification number -- a taxpayer identification number for American citizens or a government-issued document for noncitizens.

B. The institution must maintain records of the information used to verify the person's identity.

Originally, the regulations required financial institutions to keep a photocopy of whatever document was used for identification. That rule has been changed; they will only have to keep a written record of the document.

C. Determine whether the person appears on any lists of known or suspected terrorists or terrorist organizations provided to the financial institution by any government agency.

Those provisions may seem fairly harmless, but Boston-based Dalbar, a financial industry consulting firm, says institutions have the ability to ask much more intrusive questions should they decide it's necessary.

For instance, Dalbar says institutions could include questions about:

Other accounts with links to the customer
Nature of the customer's business and occupation
Name and address of employer
Customer's wealth
Source of customer's income
Customer's tax status
Source of customer's funds used to open account
Customer's investment objective
"The regulations require a very limited amount of documentation: a valid drivers license or passport for a foreigner, valid street address and date of birth. They'll also check the suspect database," says Charles O'Neill of Dalbar.

"But elsewhere in the regulations it's stated very clearly that the institution has an obligation beyond those requirements. The institution is still responsible for knowing their customers."

O'Neill says how much scrutiny you're subjected to could depend, in part, on the nature of your transactions and the amount of money.

"If you open an account with $100,000, you'll undoubtedly be asked for more than a driver's license. You may be asked where you have other financial accounts and crosschecked against other financial institutions and credit reports.

"If you ordinarily maintain an average balance of $3,000 and over the course of three months you deposited two or three checks for $25,000 each, those transactions could be flagged. But it's also likely that based on their knowledge of you, perhaps you have a mortgage with them, they would cross reference you against other accounts and determine there is no suspicious or illegal activity."

If an institution does suspect suspicious activity, don't expect to be told of an investigation. The law states that "the financial institution, director, officer, employee, or agent many not notify any person involved in the transaction that the transaction has been reported."O'Neill says some customers might simply be notified that their account has been frozen.

"People could be sensitive about not being told why their account is frozen," O'Neill says. "That will happen rarely. There will be some circumstances in which it will occur where the individual is perfectly innocent. But you can be confident that when a Suspicious Activity Report is filed, that particular matter will be addressed by federal authorities very quickly.

"Consider that several hijackers opened bank accounts and obtained credit cards with false Social Security numbers just a couple years ago. If there's over-documentation now, to me it's reasonable."

Banks vs. bad guys
Krista Shonk, regulatory specialist with America's Community Bankers, says banks have long been required to report suspicious activity and the reason customers aren't told is because doing so could compromise the investigation.

Shonk says banks will continue to check all customers against a list of known terrorists and money launderers that's issued by the Office of Foreign Assets Control, but she adds that there is some concern about a list generated by law enforcement agencies of people who are merely suspects.

"The OFAC list is bona fide bad guys. The 314A is a list of people suspected of money laundering or terrorism," says Shonk. "It's flexible. The concern is these are people who are suspected. Banks need to check customers against the 314A list, but they shouldn't use it to blackmail people."

But Shonk agrees with other banking industry representatives that most legitimate consumers will hardly notice the implementation of the new regulations.

"Generally, most customers will see absolutely no change," says John Hall, spokesman for the American Bankers Association. "Banks have a long history of doing due diligence in account openings. Our industry has always had the Bank Secrecy Act, which deals with account opening procedures. This is just codifying what's already in place."

Little banks feel big pressure
But some institutions clearly are struggling to comply with the regulations.

First Community Bank in Whitehall, Ohio, has three branches and a total of 35 employees.

"It's a lot of work for a small bank," says Kristy Nugent, vice president, comptroller and compliance officer.

"We have so few people to do this. It's additional work on top of their regular duties."

Being a small town bank also means customers may be a bit more put off by employees asking too many questions.

"The customers come here because they want to know you on a personal basis, but they don't necessarily want to give you all their personal information," Nugent adds.

"They could have a checking account with us and if they come in and open a savings account or take out a loan, we'll have to go through the background check and they won't like that.

"We have signs in the lobbies saying that we'll be doing background checks. This way they can turn around and walk out."

One thing that will likely affect all customers is the increased costs involved with implementation of the anti-money-laundering provisions of the Patriot Act.

Dalbar estimates that labor costs involved in opening a new account will jump from current costs of about $7.75 to an estimated $22 under the new rules.

"One way or another, financial institutions will have to find a way to recover (the costs) and ultimately some portion will trickle down to the customer," says O'Neill. "I don't think we've seen a lot of evidence of that yet. Maybe companies can absorb a certain percentage, but on an ongoing basis, depending on the absolute cost of compliance, it's most likely customers will pay."
-- Posted: Sept. 30, 2003

Gandalf the White
(10/01/2003; 13:16:34 MDT - Msg ID: 109671)
WATCH the US$ !!!
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0IF the US$ drops much more from this level where it is RIGHT NOW --- there is no bottom support !!!!! Look at the six month chart at the above LINK See that little blip below 92.0 ?
When the US$ drops below THAT -- then watch the GOLDEN ROCKET.
THIS is the item that shall have a MAJOR potential impact on the POG !!!
NOTHING ELSE matters !!!!!!
<;-)
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
(10/01/2003; 13:52:47 MDT - Msg ID: 109672)
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has beenupdated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our freeintroductory information packet detailing the products and services offeredby USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and lookforward to working with you.

A very slow day today starting with the Hong Kong market closed for a public holiday.
Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 14:10:29 MDT - Msg ID: 109673)
Warning Warning Warning

The Japanese Ministry of Finance has proposed raising the debt ceiling from $700 billion to $900 billion. The reason - to defend the U.S. dollar through currency market intervention efforts. This is getting very "interesting".

- Black Blade
DryWasher
(10/01/2003; 14:12:55 MDT - Msg ID: 109674)
Your Money In Iraq
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2003/tst092903.htm
From Ron Paul's current weekly column, linked above, and right on target again.

SNIP

"The stark reality is that the federal government will fund the open-ended occupation of Iraq either by raising taxes, borrowing overseas, or printing more money. All three options are bad for average Americans.

It's important the American people know exactly what they will be paying for in Iraq. The $87 billion requested is such a huge sum that it seems meaningless to most of us. The details, however, will astound anyone who resents seeing their tax dollars spent overseas.

The following are just some of the administration's requests:

-$100 million for several new housing communities, complete with roads, schools, and a medical clinic;

-$20 million for business classes, at a cost of $10,000 per Iraqi student;

-$900 million for imported kerosene and diesel, even though Iraq has huge oil reserves;

-$54 million to study the Iraqi postal system;

-$10 million for prison-building consultants;

-$2 million for garbage trucks;

-$200,000 each for Iraqis in a witness protection program;

-$100 million for hundreds of criminal investigators; and

-$400 million for two prisons, at a cost of nearly $50,000 per bed!

I doubt very seriously that most Americans would approve of their tax dollars being used to fund these projects in Iraq."

END SNIP

DryWasher comment: More reasons to protect your life savings by investing them in PHYSICAL GOLD, held in your possession in a safe place where those who would take it from you can't find it.
Belgian
(10/01/2003; 14:35:29 MDT - Msg ID: 109675)
Gondolin / Contrarian
G: No tax on Gold is evidence of the recognition that Gold represents/embodies, Wealth ! Wealth is one's ultimate/naked/unencumbered, ownership. The Gold Wealth is "ENTIRELY" yours in contrast with for example house-ownership that has always been taxed ! Not taxing Gold is the confirmation of one's fundamental right on full ownership. As soon as the UK abolished all Gold taxing, the gold smuggling from Belgium accross the channel stopped immediately. Has been replaced by sigaret trafficing (heavy taxing).
There must be very fundamental reasons and purposes why the existing (very low) gold taxes were abolished. Indeed, I also see it as an official "invitation" to wealth accumulation for wise individuals who want to take their fundamental right/liberty to ownership, literally. State's goldreserves are also to be considered as state-wealth. Responsible state want their citizens to do exactly the same and be responsible at their individual level.
WAC, do you agree or do you have another vision on this ?

C : FOA already signaled that he did not believed in a dramatic stockmarket crash. The Dow would be "printed up", permanently. This to evidence that the dollar is at the end of its lifetime and that stockprices expressed in dollars are therefor meaningless as to indicate their value or worthlesness. What is a share of 100 dollar worth if those 100 dollar are constantly devalued and lose purchasing power in a situation of hyper-inflation !?

In other words...we are going to face a *valuation-crisis* due to the demise of the dollar-reserve. This could explain WHY so much paper remains obscenely over-valued in dollar-terms in wich the absolute majority keeps on believing.
Increasing Twin deficits + a declining, helicopter dollar currency... and interest rates remain close to zero !!!-???
This is completely absurd and totally irrational, from any standpoint !

I still believe in a coming stockmarket crash for other (rather economic than monetary) reasons. Many businesses/enterprises have a core, remaining economic value. I think we must go back to a situation where this economic value can be expressed in "correct" monetary (price) worth. Stocks will imo not outrun any hyper-price-inflationary drama. Monetary collapse will also affect the global economy and stock-worth.

Nobody, "today", believes that anything "dramatic", might probably happen ! I do hear this statement more often. May we conclude that some degree of "doubt" about an eventual drama is sneeking into some observators' minds ?
A renewed wave of Western unemployment is raging !!! Debt is a disaster but FAST INCREASING DEBT + SUSTAINED HIGH AND BROAD UNEMPLOYMENT might (must/will) lead to a catastrophy !? Will the old grandma's remedies (currency devaluation) work this time ? All,...ALLLLLL hens on deck to avoid the looming catastrophy at ANY cost ! That's what I do see and interprete in the actions taken, as such.

Our Political Economies have resulted in an overstretched and over-saturated/over-stimulated, economic activity with great imbalances embedded. This system needs an overdrive-growth, simply to remain functioning.

Not a jobless recovery but an economy with less and less real jobs. Oh, sorry...a highly *productive* economy where less jobs need to be filled, because the remaining jobs are so terrible effective.

Sorry for having derived a bit too far away from your initial question on a possible stockmarket crash. I'm more worried/scared about these stockmarkets that stubbornly refuse to crash than off a good old fashioned melt down and relance. Maybe things are that bad that we even can't afford a healthy downwards re(de)valuation of stocks (or bonds=rising IRs) !!!-??? Yep, a stockmarketcrash + high rising IRs, NOW...would kill the dollar imvho. And the consensus that the US-economy must/shall pull the whole world-economy is still alive and kicking ! An extremely dangerous premisse.

TA/TI is strongly indicating that stockmarkets should decline, now ! But the above opinion is a good (fundamental) excuse for the imperfectness of TA/TI. Will see.
Belgian
(10/01/2003; 14:56:41 MDT - Msg ID: 109676)
@BB
As far as I could understand from media comments...the US is issueing more US Treasuries (loans) and the Japanese (Chinese) have to buy (are buying) and hold them !? I would like to hear a banker who wants to explain us how these things work in practice. Someone ? TIA.
Gondolin
(10/01/2003; 15:13:33 MDT - Msg ID: 109677)
Jacob Marley 109663 (Any relation to Bob?)
Must concur with yourself and Paper Avalanche. I second this nomination.

Apologies if this is late, I always read UP the page.

The last 2 paragraphs of your insightful contribution sum up what has to my mind been clearly been developing, but which I have not been able to so concisely summarise, to be a worldwide effort from every quarter to protect themselves and to strengthen themselves against the coming global shift in values and understanding of the global economic reality.

Hats off to you. And yes, The Beat Goes On.
Cometose
(10/01/2003; 15:44:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109678)
STOCKMARKET CRASH
Bernard Baruch was once asked what he thought the Stock Market was going to do ? His response was that he thought it was going to fluctuate.......

that's volatility .....it means it is going to go up and down......

FIrst you determine where we are in the business cycle and then you decide whether we are in a bull or bear market....If we are in a bear market the market is going to rise .....long term ...if we are in a bear market the market is going to fall long term.....

SOme people call March of 2000 the top of the bull market...Since that time we have according to those few , we have been in a bear market.....SInce that time, the earning of the S&P and the DOW (nasdaq doesn't have any earnings) have fallen faster than the prices of the companies....and therefore today we have astronomically high PEs still historically....At the end of a bear market , PEs are historically between 7- 12....and dividend yields are 5-7 % WE haven't gotten close to the end of the bear market.....and we are still in a bear market until the Dow and S&P better their records.....

So what can we expect in this Upward correction in this bearmarket......

Expect media pundits to tell fairy tales about the future of the economy .....

Expect insiders to be selling their shares ( last numbers indicate that insiders sold 48 dollars of stock for every 1 dollar they bought ; this is called distribution)....

Expect that after the big boys have sold their inventory of shares to the public (who thinks we are in a Stock market rally and now want to plunge back into stocks) to now take up huge short positions this fall as did Joe Kennedy in the 29 -33 rought...and depression that followed.....:THat's how they make their money .....by giving the suckers the burning match at these periods in time so that they can make a huge fortune on the short side after the media has set up the little guy , Seniors and other unknowing victims to take the fall.

Expect little in the way of capital investment to be made to help stimulate the economy because the guys that make those decisions know that this is not a RECOVERY....it's the prelude to a mess...

Always expect the unexpected......

Expect that the Trade numbers may be the spark the many use behind which to drop large numbers of shares on the markets to begin the ball rolling on and hideous ride downhill.

Expect the dollar to crater ......
The IMF has made its statement on this subject....

Don't believe the COnstruction Numbers......they are probably altered to include huge spending in Military and in IRAQ.....

Expect the Rally to turn into a Rought......

Someone is going to make a lot of money because ....."THE STOCK MARKET IS GOING TO FLUCTUATE"""
Aurion
(10/01/2003; 15:46:50 MDT - Msg ID: 109679)
Gold and the dollar
We often see gold rising on a lower dollar. This is an expected arbitrage relationship, as gold is priced in dollars. Next week, however, it is likely we�ll see both the dollar and gold strengthening. Gold will rise because of rising concerns about the stock market, while the dollar will win reprieve by foreign central banks, desperate to strengthen it. This will be a futile effort, and will be followed by the dollar heading south again, in a big way, while gold then catapults over the $400 bar. I predicted $402 for the Monday when gold shot up to $393, but the surge was beaten back down. Let�s see if this prediction pans out. If so, we will soon see the engines of the gold rocket going "throttle up". This gold investors is looking for a ride with a sign that says "Outer space or burst!"
Gondolin
(10/01/2003; 16:30:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109680)
Belgian: 109675
Belgian,

Thanks for your comments which were as I expected to hear from your good self. A further query to any at the Forum. As gold becomes accepted as a mainstream store of wealth , or equally as important to many, as a means of increasing wealth for those who hold it, is it not likely that Gordon Brown (or his successor!) will implement new taxes on gold, as Treasury of any Nation seeks to tax anything that they perceive as taxable.

Would this not be vigorously pursued as Gold enters a real long term relevance to the mainstream world financial system, and especially as soon as Joe 'I don't question paying my taxes' Sixpack jumps on board?

Again, this would be but another manifestation of theft of wealth by Government, albeit not as insidiously as through currency devaluation and inflationary monetary policies.

Or conversely would such arbitrary measures result in a black market in gold for those who seek not to pay unrighteous tax to the rapacious revenue-man?

Is it possible that excessive arbitrary taxation could become a means of suppressing the price of gold and sustaining the existing staus quo?

This is akin to the fear of confiscation of gold within the US that is often muted, and which has most recently been dismissed as un-democratic and unacceptable within a free market setting an example of free market ideals to the rest of the world in a time of conflicting geopolitical ideals.

Just thinking out loud, or as one of our valued posters would say, more Guano...
GratefulForGold
(10/01/2003; 16:37:22 MDT - Msg ID: 109681)
Amusing "tidbit" - Re: Oil
I've been cleaning bits of paper off my desk this afternoon. One post-it had written on it "2/28/03 -- (On CNBC) -- Diane Swonk (with Bank One) said oil will be back to $21/bbl in 6 months (after US occupies Iraq)."

I seldom make note of the outlandish forecasts (spoken with ever-so-much authority in their voices) that I hear on CNBC but for some reason I decided to "track" her statement. She is one of those so-calm, so-"right" personas that I felt compelled to make note of it.

I wish I had taken note of so many more "authorities" that CNBC has touted. Would make for an amusing read.

Lady GFG
Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 17:04:41 MDT - Msg ID: 109682)
Grateful for Gold - Swonk

I find that most everything that Dianne Swonk says is almost always wrong. I remember her projections from over the last few years and they tend to be way off the mark. She was also one of the "Stock Market Cheerleaders" during the big dot.com bubble. I hope she says something negative about gold soon. It would be a good sign. ;-)

- Black Blade

Off to the gym!
contrarian
(10/01/2003; 17:15:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109683)
Stock Crash?
thank you Belgian, Cometose for your comments!

I just want the whole bloody stock market mess to get on with it, and fall if it's gonna fall. I placed my bets that stocks would fall, and have been sitting tight for a year now. Getting tired of waiting.

Frankly, a year later, I'm now more fearful of paper of any sort, and wish I had put that money into gold.

Good point about shorts being set up like Joe Kennedy in 29. It does seem to be more pervasive now though, the shorting thing. So maybe some of what Shaeffer says is true.

But perhaps the dollar will be the catalyst, followed by foreigners withdrawing from the US stock market. I believe they own 13% of stocks.

All through this, of course, gold has been the better investment.

Great Albino Bat
(10/01/2003; 17:26:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109684)
Gondolin - he is the GAB's contribution of guano

Gold!

Gold is not for weaklings or fools, as I said sometime ago.

Wars are fought for gold; men fight and die for it, savagely; always have, and always will.

Yes, you will have to use all your wits to keep what gold you have, and a great deal of gumption to face down attempts to take it from you. (Note: Newsletter writer John Myers' father, Vern Myers, goldbug par excellence, buried some gold on his property. And what do you know? Someone dug it up and made off with it! Can't be too careful!)

Gold is so powerful in men's minds, that it is virtually above any man-made law. Taxes? Gold will find its way into the hands of men who don't care about taxes.

"So you want to buy some of my gold, my friend?"

"Yes; but what about the taxes?"

"Taxes, my friend, are your problem, not mine. You want my gold, you pay my price. Otherwise, look for it elsewhere, and mucho good luck to you! Oh, and I don't issue any receipt for payment, either."

The GAB is NOT an Anarchist. Government is necessary to civilized society. But - it better keep its grubby hands off my gold!

Some day - it may be very, very far off - when this whole world has suffered so much and billions may have died in wars, plagues and starvation, humanity will get back to reality, which it has been studiously avoiding for the past couple of hundred years. Gold will be in use. A lot of silly ideas will have perished with the billions of humanity wiped off the face of earth.

Maybury: "Do everything you have promised to do, and do not encroach upon others' property or rights." Golden words.

The basics will prevail once again. But, it will be painful getting there.

Gold is for warriors, not for Mr. Milquetoast. Out of the warrior class, is born the Aristocracy. The true aristocracy - not the degenerate weaklings born of several generations of aristocrats who have forgotten their code - flaunts gold as a symbol of its power.

These are strong words, but this is what we face: every man for himself. No one is going to protect your gold for you.
It's you and your wits against the world.

Tough guano from the GAB, this evening!

Great Albino Bat
(10/01/2003; 17:27:59 MDT - Msg ID: 109685)
Correction:
Should say:

Gondolin: here is the GAB's contribution...
Max Rabbitz
(10/01/2003; 17:34:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109686)
Make Believe Numbers.
The following snippet is from an S&P analysis sent out by TD Waterhouse earlier this week. I think they are trying to deceive me.

"We expect operating earnings on the S&P 500 to rise 17% to 53.76 this year. Based on our expectation of a yearend close at 1085, that's a price-to-earnings ratio of 20. S&P's chief investment strategist Sam Stovall notes that the 20 P/E is equal to the average since 1988. We see operating earnings increasing another 14% to 61.07 in 2004. Even more impressive is the expected growth in S&P Core Earnings, which includes items such as options and pension expenses that companies tend to exclude in operating earnings. We see Core Earnings on the "500" increasing 78% this year and another 27% in 2004. In 2002, Core Earnings were only 51% of the index's operating earnings. That should rise to 78% this year and 87% in 2004, based on our current projections."

Max.......... Something called "operating earnings" is used as the standard for calculating PE ratios. This is what used to be called "proforma earnings" until the term got discredited a few years ago. I guess "core earnings" is what is reported to the government as real earnings. Please note that the make believe operating earnings are used to calculate relative PE values going back to 1988 (before our accountants became so clever). That's because the gap between make believe and reality earnings just keeps getting bigger. They state real earnings are only 51% of the make believe numbers. WOW!!! Only 51%!!! This means the real PE is about 40 and last year's real S&P earnings was only 23.4! But then they juice it up with the expectation of this gap closing this year to only 78% and then 87% next year. They don't say how these profits are going to explode when most everyone seems a little heavy in debt. How are they going to do this with their pension, health care, and stock option obligations? I suspect the plan is to use inflated stock valuations to reduce the need to fund pension programs and increase share price of their other equity investments, reported as earnings. Just like the last bubble. Cheap money can be borrowed to plow into retirement funds, and stock options can be restructured. For how long? Just as long as the players, I mean investors, don't get nervous and the Asians keep taking our dollars. For me, I sleep better with gold.




Boilermaker
(10/01/2003; 17:35:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109687)
Jacob Marley (10/1/03; 10:14:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 109663
Excellent post. My thanks for your contribution to our forum.

Boilermaker
Boilermaker
(10/01/2003; 17:46:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109688)
Begian
It's good to see you back in full form. Your obsevations are most appreciated. You have the skill and memory to pull together recent history into a coherent analysis of the future. May your contributions continue and your future be bright.

Boilermaker
Cometose
(10/01/2003; 18:41:26 MDT - Msg ID: 109689)
dollar down????
GOld holding steady ........HOW LONG?????LORD?
Is this an indication that indeed the dollar is about to have a short lived bounce rally ....????

WHatever!!!

I think that this OCTOBER is going to be one to remember.
Robert
(10/01/2003; 18:52:48 MDT - Msg ID: 109690)
sales taxes on gold bullion

The subject of sales taxes on gold bullion is very interesting. Here in the US, sales taxes on gold bullion are charged in some states, although the rules are occasionally a little bit complicated. The federal government taxes capital gains realized by selling precious metals at a higher rate than stocks and bonds. Until recently, the situation was similar in Europe. You had to pay sales taxes when purchasing bullion. However, this has changed since the introduction of the Euro. Presently, all EU member states (including Great Britain) do not charge sales taxes on gold anymore. Interestingly, the sales tax does apply when purchasing all other precious metals (silver, platinum, palladium etc). The question arises therefore why did EU governments (who are always in a desperate need for new tax revenue) exempt gold from the sales tax?

The answer to this question favored by our friend Belgian is that the Euro concept is not based on suppresion of gold (as is the case with the US Dollar). According to Belgian, the Euro stands for free gold and the ECB wants to underline this by exempting gold from sales taxes.

Personally, I do not believe that this is true. If I remember correctly, the tax free status of gold was negotiated among EU member states and it is in fact part of the Maastricht treaty. That treaty does not provide for any way out of the currency union. Given that the success of the Euro could not have been guaranteed in advance, freeing gold from taxation was an insurance policy - a hidden way out of the currency union - for the worst case scenario that the Euro would collapse shortly after its introduction. If that interpretation is correct, then the EU sales taxes on gold will be introduced again, as soon as the Euro is well established and accepted as a reserve currency on world markets (which may take many more years).

It is well known that shortly before the introduction of the Euro, cautious European savers moved lots of their money into Dollars and Swiss Franks. In order to keep that capital at home, it was natural for the authorities to attract some of that capital flow into gold. That may have been another motivation for the decision to remove sales taxes on gold.

Today we enjoy the unique priviledge that we can buy gold without paying sales taxes. That will change one day. In a few years, when the competition from gold becomes unbearable for fiat currencies (we are not there yet), the governments will be forced to respond. I do not believe in confiscation. However, I do think it will be very likely that a special sales tax on gold and other precious metals (in order to fight "money laundering" and "terrorism") will be introduced. The tax will be raised to the point of 100% (or more) where the demand for physical gold will weaken substantially. Paper gold on the other hand, will of course continue to be tax free.

Personally, I am very grateful to our governments that they do not only keep the price of gold artificially low (by gold sales and gold leases), but that they also allow us to buy gold without charging sales taxes. I can only hope that this condition will last for a very long time, so I can continue to accumulate cheap gold for my retirement in 20 years.
Cavan Man
(10/01/2003; 19:24:17 MDT - Msg ID: 109691)
@ Max
Try The Intelligent Investor by Ben Graham. It is one of only a handful of investment books you'll ever need to read. Today, most of the people selling securities are less than intelligent IMHO
silvercollector
(10/01/2003; 19:36:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109692)
To anyone in the know!!
The Financial Post had a lead article today claiming that PM stocks were fully valued. Indeed Goldcorp was 'discounting' gold at $700/oz., several others were quoted at $500/oz. and the vast majority of PM stocks had ALREADY 'discounted' gold at over $400.

a) Did anyone see this article today?
b) Are these stocks so richly valued (already)?

This is important.

Thanks in advance.

sc
Aristotle
(10/01/2003; 20:18:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109693)
Robert, I dunno quite what to say about your 109690
Try as I might, I can't make any logical sense or direction out of your third paragraph. Part of the problem is probably my own shortcomings due to steadfast interpretive biases (formed over longish periods of previously unbiased scrutiny, call it "education" if you will,) biases that you've rejected outright. (You said: "According to Belgian, the Euro stands for free gold and the ECB wants to underline this by exempting gold from sales taxes. Personally, I do not believe that this is true.")

So as it stood, I expected that I'd be able to deduce from your third paragraph the rationale why you don't share that view, but I confess, I can't make heads or tails of it even after applying very liberal interpretations. Can you or anyone else on your behalf try to shed a little more light on your unique spin on this?

I'm also struggling to find the ultimate logic or sense behind your concluding paragraph. If I may paraphrase, you say you're glad the governments are keeping Gold's price under long term control as an aid to your more hefty acquisition for use in retirement.

Here's where I've got to ask the all important question. If this iron grip of control fails to relax or be abolished (de facto or de jure, I don't care which,) then where exactly are we putting our faith (and what's the payoff) if we're holding a heap of this value-controlled substance at the time in our elderly lives when we need to cash some of it in to extract real-world value in exchange for our various earthly needs?

Or to put this shortly, what have you to say to the folks who bought Gold abundantly in 1979, 1980 at prices from $500-$800, who have subsequently passed into retirement years seeing now the government's iron grip on Gold's price as an impediment to them extracting fair value from this Physical Asset? Would you rather this not happen to you?

This iron grip must come off to release/unshroud the fair value for all market eyes to see, and from most appearances that I've observed in the development of my current bias/understanding, the Europeans and the Chinese, perhaps with a little help from other friends, are intent upon seeing this fair act done.

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Cavan Man
(10/01/2003; 20:20:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109694)
Tony Blair, Euro, Iraq
Perhaps I underestimate Mr. Blair. If a certain British PM were intelligent enough and desired Euro convergence badly enough for whatever reasons, perhaps he would back the US "coalition" knowing in due time the truth would be outed resulting in England making an about face and facing east; seeking to disassociate itself with deplorable folly. THOUGHTS for the gristmill upon which the mind is....well... if not sharpenend then at least exercised.
DummyANI
(10/01/2003; 20:22:36 MDT - Msg ID: 109695)
@contrarian (10/01/03; 17:15:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 109683)
Stock Crash? ---- Perhaps after once more reboundIn order to go to south NY-Stock Market, they must go up just before the crash moment.
Background of the weak dollars, more than Japanese trade-surplus money were transferred from Japan to USA, its volume was nearly equal to 194 billion dollars.

If 21.4 trillion Yen was exchanged from Yen to dollar without G-7 Dubai comments, Yen went south at 130 Yen per dollar.

At present, Wall Streets gained nearly 194 billion dollars from Japan, they can lift up Dow-index and Nasdaq for a short term. I think the rebounds of NY-Stock Market will be continued until October 24, or October 28 2003. After 3 weeks or 4-weeks rebound, NY-Stock Market will go to south.
Goldendome
(10/01/2003; 21:59:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109696)
What a wonderous day of Postings!!!

I have been in "Awe", reading the posts and interactions of members this day. The level of thought and expression has been wonderful. The understanding and insight communicated to one another has been amazing. Thanks go out to one and all. ----Gdome
Chris Powell
(10/01/2003; 22:16:19 MDT - Msg ID: 109697)
Veneroso tells Calandra: Central banks are intervening against gold
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1700CBSMarketWatch Editor Thom Calandra gets explosive
remarks from Allianz Dresdner's Frank Veneroso, who
acknowledges that the central banks are suppressing
the price of gold as another form of currency
intervention.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Robert
(10/01/2003; 22:17:50 MDT - Msg ID: 109698)
Aristotle, let me try again
to explain why I believe that taxfree gold in Europe is a temporary affair. In order to understand my reasoning you must think about the difficulties member states in the EU were facing when negotiating a new common currency (the Euro). They agreed to give up their own monetary independence. In addition, they refused to specify conditions under which this decision could be reversed. Clearly, the involved national governments needed some kind of insurance that, if the historically unprecedented experiment of a common currency for a number of politically independent countries would fail, there would be some kind of exit door left. I believe that exit door was created by declaring that gold would be free of EU taxation and that the newly formed ECB would refrain from any attempt to manipulate the gold market (this explains among other things the so called "Washington agreement"). This condition if properly implemented does indeed provide the insurance against monetary abuse of individual European nations by the EU burocracy. It is precisely what Belgian calls "free gold". However, contrary to Belgian I believe that this insurance of "free gold" was not introduced in Europe for the sake of free gold. No, a temporarily free gold was the necessary price to pay in order to convince countries with a relatively strong currency (like Germany) to switch to a potentially weaker currency (the Euro). We read in newspapers that the EU continues to evolve to a political union. They talk about a common defense strategy and there is also talk already about the introduction of EU income taxes. As this trend continues and national sovereignity (including taxing power) is gradually shifted from individual countries to the EU burocracy in Bruxelles, the need for free gold will dissipate. This is the reason why I believe that sales taxes on gold will be reintroduced in Europe in a few years (once the Euro establishes sufficient reputation in the markets and the early concerns regarding the Euro become history).

Regarding your second point: If you already own plenty of gold, but lack cash (perhaps because you are already retired), clearly you hope for a fast rise of the price of gold so you can exchange a little of your gold against lots of cash in order to pay your bills. If, on the other hand, you are not retired yet and plan to receive a biwekly paycheck in fiat currency for a number of years, you are in a desperate need to convert some of that fiat into gold at the lowest price possible (in order to preserve as much as possible of the purchasing power of your earnings for the time of retirement). You are right by pointing out to the bitter personal consequences of this contradiction. In my opinion, this contradiction is further proof that gold is not wealth but a unique financial asset. Like all financial assets, gold is subject to the universal "buy low, sell high" strategy. If gold would indeed be wealth, nobody would ever sell gold.

Thanks for responding to my posting.
Chris Powell
(10/01/2003; 22:17:54 MDT - Msg ID: 109699)
Read John Embry's latest interviews on ROB-TV in Canada
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1703Transcripts of Sprott Asset Management President
John Embry's interviews on ROB-TV in Canada on
Tuesday.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Chris Powell
(10/01/2003; 22:18:52 MDT - Msg ID: 109700)
Reg Howe saves Canada ...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1704...with a little instruction in gold:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1704


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 22:32:04 MDT - Msg ID: 109701)
Re: Silvercollector - Don't Worry - It Really Is Not Important
http://www.nationalpost.com/financialpost/story.html?id=721F5F66-E7E6-48E7-B9EE-3F07215748E5
I read the article and the two quoted analysts (John Tumazos and Jared Muroff at Prudential Financial) are well known as gold bears. They missed out on the Bull Market altogether and Tumazos issued a "Sell" recommendation on Newmont when no analyst was issuing "sell" recommendations on any stock. Of course Newmont was selling at about $15 a share � (the lowest point) before marching ahead to a recent $41 a share (yep, good call eh?). I was not all that surprised by the article. Many gold mining shares are overvalued if you following the reasoning that the usual generic stock is usually considered fairly valued at the historical average of about a PE of 14. Given their reasoning we should consider that the stocks of almost all companies on all the world's exchanges as being wildly overvalued. However, the reasoning they used to value these gold shares is seriously flawed.

They simply discount the falling US dollar and dismiss deteriorating global economic conditions amid a "competitive currency devaluation. They also discount the soaring budget and current account deficits in the US where gold is "valued" in US dollars. What is interesting is that they don't really discuss expanding reserves (and resources for that matter) at some of these companies or several properties they have claim to that could and likely will eventually be developed. So using current valuation is a risky game for natural resource plays.


SO HOW DO YOU VALUE A GOLD MINING COMPANY?

Now first off, I am not pushing investment in gold mining shares here and for simple disclosure I do own shares in Goldcorp, Glamis, and Meridian. Since I am more familiar with these companies and their projects and they discuss Goldcorp let's use that one as an example here:

According to their research, "Goldcorp Inc. is discounting a gold price of US$830 to bring its shares into line with its net present value". OK, fine, the last time I checked Goldcorp was selling at a PE of about 30 or slightly more. Using historical averages of valuation as applied to the average ho hum generic company stock making widgets at a PE of about 14 then they are right about the $830 mark for Goldcorp using simpleton reasoning (my rough back of the envelope shows about $825 an ounce so that's about right).

However, they discount a great number of items that should be applied to value Goldcorp Inc. Goldcorp has another $200 million plus in cash, absolutely no debt whatsoever, is completely unhedged, etc. (all the goodies a Goldbug investing in gold mining shares would want if he truly believes that the POG will continue to rise). They also discount the $87 million plus of gold bullion they have stored away in a vault � (they don't even trust the US dollar or Canadian dollar enough either to put the cash and gold to work in alternative investments). Goldcorp is not the "one trick pony" with one mine. They also have a small producing mine soon due for closure in S. Dakota (Wharf Mine) in a couple of more years and a mineral (soda ash?) mine in Canada, but more importantly they have interests in and made investments in some other promising projects, miners and explorationists that gives them a right to a portion of the proceeds if successful and that makes them potentially a Gold Royalty Company in the making as well eliminating a good portion of risk. And perhaps most importantly these alleged analysts don't even say a word about recent exploration results at their flagship mine at Red Lake released just last week of several large/thick extremely high grade ore zones vastly expanding reserves that will continue to be mined at very low cost (they are already the lowest cost producer in the world). Oh yeah, they also pay a dividend six times a year and have increased the payout occasionally (though it is admittedly a small payout).

So you can see why some investors see Goldcorp Inc as being worth twice as much on a PE basis than the historical average of a typical stock of some generic company producing widgets. These guys obviously did not do their homework or at the very least were extremely sloppy at it. But I do not think that they are interested in Gold Mining stocks as much as they are simply anti-gold, have been for years, and that their true agenda is to convince investors and potential investors to stay away from hard assets and to buy Prudential Financial paper plays and pay them to use their services (maybe making more great "Sell" calls like Tumazos did on Newmont just before the stock took off on a new Bull Market rocket ride). So this article does not surprise me in the least. I can even explain much more of the same concerning the other companies that they mentioned in the article as well. I even have shares in Glamis Gold with a PE of over 130!!!! � and I am keeping them too (yes, there's much more to that story too � but I am not here to push gold stocks). But I believe that the article was a poorly disguised effort to taint precious metals as an investment and not just an effort to drive investors away from the shares of mining companies. Gold and Silver are in a primary "secular" long term Bull Market and prices will be rising substantially for several years. Before making investments in paper, stocks, bonds, warrants, etc. � first of all build a firm foundation of safety by accumulating hard assets gold and silver (platinum would also be good). Then get squared away by clearing out debt, having emergency cash, and a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities. Then invest or speculate from a comfortable position.

My "Sell Recommendation" today � Prudential Financial and all investments tied to them. If simpletons John Tumazos and Jared Muroff the best analysts that the company has to offer to cover this sector and are that sloppy with their analyses on these companies then rest assured that the company probably is not much better in other sectors or very good at providing good financial advice and services. In fact run � run like the blazes should they contact you.

- Black Blade
Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 22:58:14 MDT - Msg ID: 109702)
Ford set to cut more than 12,000 jobs
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480243280&p=1012571727088
Snippit:

Ford Motor Company is set to cut more than 12,000 jobs worldwide, mostly in the US, after persuading labour unions to agree to the closure or sale of four assembly and component plants. The moves come as the Detroit "big three" carmakers are receiving ratification from labour unions of new three-year labour contacts, which include plant closures and jobs losses. Chrysler, the US unit of Germany's DaimlerChrysler, is also preparing cuts in salaried staff, the latest round of job losses at the troubled subsidiary where 30,000 workers have left in the past two years under an $8.1bn restructuring plan.

Black Blade: The "Bone Pile" grows by leaps and bounds. Tomorrow we get first time claims data, the upward revision of last week's data, and the upwardly revised job losses for last month. Job losses are climbing and the unemployment figure remains at 9.2% or 12.3% in counting those who went from full time to part time employment (could be worse in the upcoming report). Looks very ugly but the constant reminder that this is a "lagging indicator" is sure to be spot lighted (lagging in the fourth consecutive year that is). Oh yeah, and that lovely Wall Street euphemism � "Jobless Recovery". Sorry that I haven't been keeping up with the "Bone Pile" reports but there are just too damn many of them to keep posting.

Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 23:07:28 MDT - Msg ID: 109703)
Verizon offers buyouts to 74,000
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BA718DBBC%2DFE65%2D4E65%2DB22C%2D259F26674BA8%7D&siteid=mktw
Snippit:

WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- Verizon Communications has offered 74,000 managers a voluntary buyout package as the phone giant aims to further reduce costs.

Black Blade: Yep, more "Phone Bones" off to the growing "Bone Pile". And these are just the managers. Wait til they fire the other nonessential "bones". They are probably practicing for new careers now: "want fries with that sir?"

Gandalf the White
(10/01/2003; 23:20:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109704)
ONE THIN DIME !! <;-)
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0&v=sYesterday's Chart of the US$ had a "low" ten cents above the MAGIC 91.9 mark !! Will it BREAK the mark and set a new low today ?
When it does and I think that it will either today (Thursday) or Friday -- the GOLD ROCKET will start to BLAST OFF !
<;-)
Gandalf the White
(10/01/2003; 23:23:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109705)
OOPS --- Sorry !
That MAGIC number is 91.99 !!!
<;-)
Black Blade
(10/01/2003; 23:36:04 MDT - Msg ID: 109706)
Where Have All The Jobs Gone?
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/finger/100103.html
Snippit:

More than 2 million jobs have been lost in the United States since 2001. In fact, more jobs have been lost since the recession (1.1 million) than during it. Despite more upbeat numbers in recent months regarding corporate profits and stock prices, the job market has barely budged. Weekly unemployment claims have remained around the 400,000 level for over half a year. The official unemployment rate dropped from 6.4% to 6.1% in August. There's a dirty little secret in government jobs reporting, and you ought to know about it: unemployment benefits run out after six months. If the unemployed person hasn't found a job after that time, he's no longer counted among the unemployed. That way, the government's figures look better. By one estimate, one million people are categorized this way.

We are in what is considered by many to be a "Jobless recovery." The year 1992 started out that same way: although the Gulf War recession officially ended in 1991, the nation experienced very little job growth in 1992, and this was in large part responsible for the election of Bill Clinton as President. Shortly after Clinton took over, the nation started a recovery in the job sector. So why haven't we seen a recovery this time? One big reason is global capitalism. Huge American corporations are hiring overseas labor at a fraction of the cost of American labor. Look at these figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:


Black Blade: Jobs are going offshore. Especially high paying tech jobs as well as manufacturing jobs. If you have a computer science degree or some other tech oriented degree � go back to college and get into something useful and can't move offshore � like health services for example. Technology jobs in the US are dead or at least on "life support" and there's no chance the patient will live. A recent report shows recruitment in the armed services is surging. Maybe there will be work for ex-military personnel in the "Mercenary Market" (high risk occupation of course). Even with higher precious metals and petroleum prices, work is hard to come by in the US (the reasons are more political than economic though). This can be attributed largely to the Clinton-Rubin "strong dollar policy" that Dubya and Snow say that they still support. If that's true, then why do they want Americans to become unemployed? Interesting question but that's what is happening and yet it appears they want high unemployment. Before the presidential election I did state that George W. Bush would go down in history as the next Herbert Hoover. He's trying his damned best to achieve that goal. Another nail in the coffin is higher energy costs. "Cheap Energy" is gone � finished � though we have more than enough coal and NatGas we won't for some reason exploit this resource. This next winter could easily drive home that issue as well and another result will be more industries moving offshore and workers fired. It may be time to rethink your careers and possibly a return to school for an essential job or maybe learn Cantonese/Mandarin if manufacturing products is your career choice. In the meantime get prepared and trade dollars for gold and silver.

Aristotle
(10/02/2003; 00:04:14 MDT - Msg ID: 109707)
Robert, thanks for trying again
... but alas, I'm too danged stupid! I STILL can't connect your dots.

I'm particularly struggling with this part of your two attempts to show me the light:

Your 1st post:
"[Maastricht] does not provide for any way out of the currency union. [...] freeing gold from taxation was an insurance policy - a hidden way out of the currency union - for the worst case scenario that the Euro would collapse shortly after its introduction."

Ari: I can't see how this serves as a vital framework insurance policy.

Your 2nd attempt at this:
"[...] the involved national governments needed some kind of insurance that, if the historically unprecedented experiment of a common currency for a number of politically independent countries would fail, there would be some kind of exit door left. I believe that exit door was created by declaring that gold would be free of EU taxation and that the newly formed ECB would refrain from any attempt to manipulate the gold market [...]"

Ari: Danged it all... I'm still in the same boat as before. Adrift without the foggiest idea of North from South. I'm interpreting your use of "insurance" as "safety net" rather than "guarantee of performance." How does freeGold function as a strong safety net during a breakdown of the ECB structure if its existence or establishment ***in the first place*** was dependent/contingent upon the granting benevolence of the ECB (rather than being ushered in by the original independent will of the nation states)??!

You continue:
"a temporarily free gold was the necessary price to pay in order to convince countries with a relatively strong currency (like Germany) to switch to a potentially weaker currency (the Euro)."

Ari: "...TEMPORARILY free Gold was the necessary price"????? Was? WAS??? My dear Robert, we don't even have freeGold yet, and when we do get there, it shall ENDURE (no so fleeting as "temporarily") as a self-evident proper TRUTH of life like liberty and ownership of personal property. Apparently, you think "freeGold" is but a term that applies to a Gold market that is simply free of sales/VAT taxes? ooooph! That hurts. The following passage is another one of your passages that has brought me to that conclusion:

"As this trend continues and national sovereignity (including taxing power) is gradually shifted from individual countries to the EU burocracy in Bruxelles, the need for free gold will dissipate. This is the reason why I believe that sales taxes on gold will be reintroduced in Europe..."

If I've got this interpretatin of your thoughts wrong, please let me know.

When *I* apply the term (I can't speak for Belgian,) it has more to do with a market in Gold as an asset that exists in a wholly UNENCUMBERED state -- that is, no forms of promised Gold and paper Gold (IOU promises of delivery or price performance) artificially impacting supply and demand and price discovery in the marketplace were Gold's benefits are bought and sold among the many people of the world.


Getting back to that final point of welcoming government control essentially for a long time to come for the purposes of having a hefty supply at retirement, this is my final word on the matter. It is one thing to recognize the banking sector's price manipulation and to take advantage of it -- with the understanding that it can't last forever. Do not, however, celebrate the iron grip and wish it long life because you might get your wish in spades -- it might outlast you and perform so effectively that it reduces your tonnes and tonnes to a value of mere pennies during your time of need. Don't scoff at this; they've done it to paper currency, they can do it to paper Gold just as easily! That is, unless the paper proxy is severed, severed and abandoned through the market condition I refer to loosely as the freeGold market.

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Caradoc
(10/02/2003; 00:07:45 MDT - Msg ID: 109708)
Sir Slingshot's 7/8 of an ounce
Slingshot: No rocks to throw and wouldn't throw 'em if I had 'em. Your storytelling and other posts add too much to this forum. The issues/queries you raise don't lend themselves to answers other than "well, that depends...."

First off, you're right that government-held gold generally is less available than the rest of the 6 billion ounces, but greed/opportunism apparently prompts sales during price increases (Canada, recently) and fear/stupidity apparently prompts sales after the price drops (UK a couple of years ago). In short, the immediate supply is elastic and for contradictory reasons.

Also true, if the world's population were to double (plus a tad to offset new gold production in the meanwhile) your fair share would amount to more like 7/16 of an oounce rather than 7/8. But double the population doesn't simply translate to twice the price. On one hand, some demand is also elastic. As gold approaches $800 per ounce, some jewelry demand may taper off by switching to silver or platinum. On the other hand, for reasons much discussed at this table, a rise to $800 will likely lead to much higher prices.

Just to make it worse, there's no answer written in the stars as to what is the proper ratio between gold and anything else. If this is the case for real assets like ounces of silver, 10-foot lengths of copper pipe, or suits of men's clothing, it's even moreso for something as transitory as any given date's definition of a dollar.

What this leads me to is that there's little point in tracking how many dollars your stash is worth. Instead, what's important is how many ounces your cash was worth over the last year and what percentage of that buying power got translated into real wealth.

Final note: it's up to each of us to decide what items in addition to gold qualify as real wealth. Going beyond the food and jugs of water that may be needed to get past short term problems over the next few years, my hunch is that a good well with a 24-volt solar-powered/wind-powered pump will be something that even the Joe Sixpacks of the world will recognize as a valuable asset within the next decade. I'll spare you the analysis of your "fair share" of the world's drinkable water in the year 2013.

Caradoc



DummyANI
(10/02/2003; 01:33:04 MDT - Msg ID: 109709)
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 11 27,754�c plus0512 �c 381.1(Dec.2003)
Sep. 12 27,810�c plus0056 �c 380.8
Sep. 15 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....376.9
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
Belgian
(10/02/2003; 02:18:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109710)
About the * euro *......
The history of the European Monetary Union (EMU) is a long and difficult one. So was the development of the dollar-system ! Both regimes ($-�) are of a dynamic nature and have (had-will have) altering relationships with GOLD.

Fiat Currencies (monetary systems) will ALWAYS refer/relate to Gold in one way or another. If,...IFFFFFF, one is considering the alternative euro-system as yet another GOLD-ADVERSARY,...joining the dollar's existing aversion for Gold,...WHY DOES ONE SHOULD GIVE ANY INTEREST TO THE METAL ??? If one thinks that the euro-system is as Gold-Unfriendly as the dollar-system and is "re-inforcing" the dollar's containment of Gold...what future is there for Gold ???

If Gold is not "wealth", why does one chose it for speculative reasons, whilst Platinum (or even nickel and other) make much bigger swings than the boring contained precious yellow !

The present hardiest contracdiction is to "see" that the euro-system has/is/will evolve as more and more GOLD FRIENDLY !!! At minimum, more Gold Friendly than the dollar-system ever was.

This euro-Monetary Union thing is on its rails, and the dollar-system likes it for as long as it remains a "nice" and "behaving" competitor ! GOLD'S PLACE WITHIN BOTH SYSTEMS WILL MAKE THE DIFFERENCE SOONER OR LATER !

And if goldbugs wish to remain negative on both monetary systems ($-�) as to the advantage of Gold,... so be it.

The decades old Gold-Management only served one purpose : to avoid monetary chaos at Gold's wealth cost! Free Gold was always the right solution but wasn't serving (will never) the interests of the dollar-system, wich we had to accept for our best convenience.

A "Rush" to Physical Gold in this UNFREE (prisoned) goldmarket, makes the US$-RESERVE "worthless"... "useless", instantly ! The euro-system wants Gold to be able to remain free without endangering the monetary system with collapses.

Those who remain convinced that the evolving euro-system has NOTHING to do with Gold's future, must come up and explain HOW and WHY Gold's valuation criteria will change.
UNFREE Gold in a paper-gold-market cannot compete with helicopter confetti flashing from screen to screen
!!!

Destruction of the money(confetti)supply would cause more problems than honest money would solve. Unfree Gold, makes that we remain stuck with this system. We live in a world of "counterfeited" wealth without real private "property".

Once this Western part of the planet should see/realize that
our "prosperity" is declining,...we will start panicking and land or crash on the old ($)or new (�) monetary tarmac.

If,...IF the old prosperity-tricks remain workable,...we keep on flying with the old dollar system and UNFREE GOLD !
Faites vos jeux, Mesdammes, Messieurs.
DummyANI
(10/02/2003; 03:21:39 MDT - Msg ID: 109711)
Trade in gold, silver futures from Oct 3 in India
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=212768snip:
NEW DELHI: Futures trading in gold and silver is set to be relaunched from October 3, after a span of more than four decades. The National Multi Commodity Exchange of India Ltd (NMCE), Ahmedabad, is all set to start futures trading in gold and silver from that date on.

D-ANI---comment: Tomorrow will be a verry big date for a gold.
NEMO me impune lacessit
(10/02/2003; 03:22:55 MDT - Msg ID: 109712)
oil
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?story=449053problems closer than we think?

n
silvercollector
(10/02/2003; 04:07:06 MDT - Msg ID: 109713)
BB
How did I know that you would be the man to respond to my "overvalued" question?

After reading the article yesterday (very alarming!) and again from your post I see the bearish twist. On the other side of the coin I watched John Embry the other night. He did explain gold's fundamentals (demise of the dollar) and I near cheered his every word. Something of note though was his apprehension to some gold stocks. In his view he believes some have got ahead of themselves and he has leaned towards the metal lately. Followed yesterday by 'bear & bear' and I'm sure you can see that a red light has been flashing in my little world.

I'm a holder of Goldcorp as well; probably for the same reasons that you do. The biggest is their impressive holdings, their web site at this moment boasts 7 tonnes. Talk about non-hedging. Wow!

The other thing I watch is the HUI/POG ratio which was 0.3-0.4 for a long time and now is slightly over 0.5. Last week the ratio was almost 0.55 (210/392). That's getting a little ahead of itself IMHO. I wish the metal would catch up a bit!!

Anyway, thanks for your message BB, have a golden day.

sc
Belgian
(10/02/2003; 04:25:51 MDT - Msg ID: 109714)
miscellany....
- Goodby Wim, hello Jean Claude (ECB-Portugal). Dollar (A.A. block) speculates, again, that Trichet will be lured into more dollar-system like monetary expansion (debauche) and super-easy credit ! Read sustained lower euro IRs + increased confetti-inflaladada and rising deficits. Forget it !

- New report (David Kay) suggests that Saddam could only have "pretended" of having WMD ! Jesus...

- N. Korea, happily announces, it has nuclear deterrent !
Jesus...

- Chris Patten speaks about a possible donnation (contribution) of 200 million $ (budgetaire restraints) for the reconstruction of Iraq, where BILLIONS are needed ! Jesus...

- The EU (euro) is NOW much less dependant (influenced by) the dollar's fates than in the previous decades (from 20% to 10%)

The purpose of posting these snippits is to accentuate the differences between the existing (outgoing) dollar-system and the growing (emerging) euro-system under their respective political umbrellas.
Black Blade
(10/02/2003; 04:33:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109715)
Fifteen Fundamental Reasons To Own Gold.
http://www.minesite.com/archives/features_archive/2003/Oct-2003/reasons021003.htm
Snippit:

John Embrey, a partner of Toronto-based Sprott Asset Management, and portfolio manager of the Sprott Gold & Precious Metals Fund which consistently ranks at or near the top of the world's best performing gold funds, has published his 15 Fundamental Reasons To Own Gold. They are well worth reading and are attached below with due acknowledgement to the Daily Reckoning..


Black Blade: Worth reading - pretty well covers it.
Dollar Bill
(10/02/2003; 04:34:30 MDT - Msg ID: 109716)
*>*.........+
ersaud , director of GAM-Persaud Global Investment Fund said:

"If Asia un-pegs its currencies and moves toward floating ones, U.S. bond yields will surge," Persaud said at a foreign exchange conference here in Singapore this week. "Rising bond yields would crucify the U.S. economy."

Marshall Auerback in "John Snow Lights the Fuse"

China has been extending credit to the US so that it could keep expanding its capital expenditure to overproduce goods that the world doesn't need (as well as providing jobs for its dispossessed migrant workers coming into the cities). And Japan's massive intervention against the yen was creating the stimulus required to start the process of positive recursive growth dynamics in that country. Now this entire process, as inherently unstable as it was, is in danger of being reversed. The US is already tapped out and the latest downdraft in the dollar and the markets might prove to be the final shock to an already sick system."

My Guess is that China and Japan will continue with what they are doing for years.
And that the US govt knows that otherwise George Bush would be saying and doing whatever would be fiscally needed to right the big ship.
Waverider
(10/02/2003; 08:42:32 MDT - Msg ID: 109718)
Saving Canada with Gold Grams
http://www.goldensextant.com/CanadaGoldGrams.html#anchor2This just in my mailbox by Reginald H. Howe.
R Powell
(10/02/2003; 08:45:33 MDT - Msg ID: 109719)
Silvercollector
Concerning the mining stock index and the POG you wrote.....

"The other thing I watch is the HUI/POG ratio which was 0.3-0.4 for a long time and now is slightly over 0.5. Last week the ratio was almost 0.55 (210/392). That's getting a little ahead of itself IMHO. I wish the metal would catch up a bit!!"

Stating that the mining company share prices have gotten ahead of themselves because the ratio is increasing assumes that any rise in POG should result in a corresponding 1:1 ratio rise in the index, no? I question whether this is accurate given the varying break-even costs of production for different companies.

Specifically, say the cost of production is X dollars per ounce and the going sale price is X+$10 per ounce and, at this ratio, the HUI index = Y. Now, if the POG increases to X+$20 per ounce, company profits have doubled, where should the HUI be? If the POG increases again to X+$40, then profits have doubled again! Where should the HUI be now?

Let's add to the equation that some companies still have sold forward some percantage of production so that not all gold production is incresing company profits. Remember that the stock prices more closely reflect company profitability than the POG. Given that the HUI contains fewer hedged companies than the XAU but, even the HUI companies are not totally hedge free.

I do not own any mining company stocks so I've not spent a great deal of time on this matter, but it may be that the XAU and HUI indexes do not work as well as exact ratio indicators. That is, they may show the general up trend without being able to indicate whether the share prices are overpriced in comparison to the POG or vice-versa. I still wonder if share prices are a leading or lagging indicator of the POG. If the former, and if the HUI were an exact 1:1 indicator of the POG, then overpriced shares would be a premonition on the POG above $400, yes? But the issue is very complicated. Maybe someone with the expertise has/could do a chart type study over a good length of time to investigate the relation between the HUI and the POG, especially to see if whatever relationship there was in the past is still valid with the POG at these (relatively) higher prices.

As for the other precious metal, silver prices have been so low, for so long, that the majority of silver production is now secondary extraction from ores mined primarily for copper, zinc, gold etc. Primary silver production is (has been) below the costs of production. What are primary silver mining company stocks worth? What will they be worth if silver doubles in price? Again, very complicated. Physical ownership is not.
Thoughts?
Rich


Jing Zu
(10/02/2003; 10:33:37 MDT - Msg ID: 109720)
Dollar Drop...
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0Well,
It looks as though the sellers of the Fed Notes are comming in... Correct me if I am wrong please. I understand that once the dollar index falls below 92, the bottom will fall.
Is this correct?
tyro
(10/02/2003; 10:40:50 MDT - Msg ID: 109721)
Caradoc msg#: 109708)
Caradoc, do you have a particular name brand of pump to recommend? I'm going to have a well drilled within the next year. tyro
Federal_Reserves
(10/02/2003; 11:09:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109722)
SM Crash possible at any time
Forget the noise about absolute and relative levels of puts and calls, the SM can crash at any time. Liquidity is the key, and cash levels at the mutual funds are at record lows. There is no cash backed buffer in the system. There is no protection for the 10trillion in stock values. No reserves. The money is not there, its in the air, a paper conception, fools gold. Perception rules the day, and fear and greed can rotate in great waves. When excessive greed turns to fear, and cash levels are low, a stock market crash can happen at anytime due to lack of liquidity, providing no exit to withdraw for participants.



Gandalf the White
(10/02/2003; 11:14:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109723)
THE US$
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0Jing Zu (10/2/03; 10:33:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 109720)
Dollar Drop...
==
YES, Sir Jing Zu, Mr. James Sinclair and I do so believe!
Looks as if THEY are saving it a little from last night, BUT ---
We shall soon see.
<;-)
a nation of one
(10/02/2003; 12:02:49 MDT - Msg ID: 109724)
two cents
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=FOREX_XAUUSDO&v=d3For the reference to the DOW go to
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=FOREX_XAUUSDO&v=d3

There are several strongly negative news items today, and
this has been increasing ever since it has become clear
that the combat is not over. I agree with Jim Sinclair and
with you, Gandalf, that if the dollar goes below the most
recent low, around 92, that will be significant, in the
way that you predict. Further, pog is trading in a small
triangle going back to September 20th, and it has to
emerge before monday. Makes the most sense to expect it
will spring upward, rather than downward, to some extent.
Moreover, the DOW has crossed back and forth over 9500 a
number of times, and it is presently showing considerable
weakness. All these things seem to add up to a situation
where the hammer is cocked, and the round is about to be
fired. We'll see. Like always, nobody is right all the
time, and that includes me.
a nation of one
(10/02/2003; 12:09:05 MDT - Msg ID: 109725)
correction, Re: my last post

For the dollar reference, go to
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0&v=d12

For the gold reference, go to
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=FOREX_XAUUSDO&v=d3
Jing Zu
(10/02/2003; 12:28:29 MDT - Msg ID: 109726)
Gandalf the White (10/2/03; 11:14:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 109723
Thank you for clarifying that for me.. I thought that was the case.

So, what is going to happen next? I suppose that we will just wait and see????

Obviously people should buy GOLD (physical) in my humble opinion.
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
(10/02/2003; 12:46:11 MDT - Msg ID: 109727)
Pricing AND Shipping: The only way you can beat this offer... is with a stick!
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/bullion.html

Gold Bullion
Operative
(10/02/2003; 12:52:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109728)
@ Waverider: Thank You For The Brain Food
Thanks for the link to the "Saving Canada..." article. Started to give it a quick read, stopped, put on a pot of fresh coffee and going to spend some time reviewing this writing giving it the attention it deserves. Better yet, will see if I can find that decanter, print out the article, and spend this sunny fall afternoon outdoors reading. Hmmmm, wonder where my wife has hidden that stash of chocolate?
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
(10/02/2003; 14:02:02 MDT - Msg ID: 109729)
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has beenupdated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our freeintroductory information packet detailing the products and services offeredby USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and lookforward to working with you.
misetich
(10/02/2003; 14:56:13 MDT - Msg ID: 109730)
Fed Officials Express Worry on Lack of Jobs
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=3549495Snip:

Home > News > Reuters Edge > Article



[Ad]

Fed Officials Express Worry on Lack of Jobs
Thu October 2, 2003 03:41 PM ET
By Tim Ahmann
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - While the U.S. economic recovery is gaining speed, a lack of jobs means it could still falter, top Federal Reserve officials said on Thursday in remarks indicating a willingness to keep interest rates low.

"I have to admit that until we actually book a couple of quarters of solid output growth and see the beginning of an employment rebound, there will be some doubts in my mind whether we are, at last, out of the woods," Chicago Fed President Michael Moskow said in an otherwise upbeat speech in Evanston, Illinois.

In a separate appearance, Philadelphia Fed President Anthony Santomero also welcomed signs of faster growth, but expressed worry the economy could be slow to create jobs.
................

For his part, Moskow ..............."Inflationary pressures are not a significant near-term worry, so it should be possible to maintain accommodative monetary conditions for a considerable period," he said.

Even with solid growth expected for the remainder of this year and 2004, significant economic slack could persist for some time and put further downward pressure on inflation, Moskow warned. But he added the risk of deflation, or an outright decline in prices, was remote.
**********************
Misetich

There you have it. The "desciples" spreading the gospel - accomodative fed (print ad infinitum- low IR) no "inflation" and no threat of deflation.

It sounds more like management by hope and prayer - however in this perfect utapian scenario "they" are admitting unemployment will remain high.

Obviously the lower US $, thus higher import prices will not cause "price inflation" neither will higher energy, higher housing costs, higher health costs, higher food costs etc

and the Feds must also be saying a few prayers, for foreigners to continue on financing bigger and bigger deficits.

To assist Fed "lurkers" in case they missed this great post at Gold Eagle titled Dragon at the Back Door by Jim Willie CB

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/willie100103.html

All On Boards The Gold Bull Express
misetich
(10/02/2003; 15:07:38 MDT - Msg ID: 109731)
Analyst: Sun Micro Facing 'Crisis'
http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=3549730Snip:

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Network computer maker Sun Microsystems Inc. SUNW.O should slash as much as 19 percent of its work force and tighten its product focus or it could become a takeover target, an influential Wall Street analyst said on Thursday.

"Sun faces a crisis," Merrill Lynch analyst Steve Milunovich wrote in an unusual note to clients, which was in the form of an open letter to Chief Executive Scott McNealy and the company's board.
.................

Milunovich, who rates Sun stock as "neutral," outlined several areas that the company could address, including cutting up to 7,000 jobs
***************
Misetich

Yep! US economic recovery is on the way - NOT!
and in case this was missed

AT&T CEO Sees More Cost Cutting, Consolidation

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3470614

After some 6,400 job cuts, AT&T will end the year with about 64,000 employees, compared with 55,000 staff at MCI as that company emerges from bankruptcy.

The Feds have little ammunition left, since IR, tax cuts and now depreciating US $ haven't done the trick

All On Board The Gold Bull Express
misetich
(10/02/2003; 17:44:51 MDT - Msg ID: 109733)
Equal Opportunity Inflation? The Job-Loss Recovery...
http://www.contraryinvestor.com/mo.htmSnip:

Without a self sustaining recovery in both cap spending and employment ahead, the broader equity markets just may be making one big mistake in currently pricing in both a significant economic rebound and a meaningful corporate profits acceleration, above and beyond cost cutting, as per the loud and clear message of current valuations. The fact that labor conditions continue to be weak is self obvious
..................
At least as of now, we believe it's fair to say that wage inflation is really nowhere to be found. The same wage inflation that is going to be a necessary ingredient in hopefully "inflating away" total systemic leverage.
................
But, as always, we are on the lookout for potential unintended consequences of monetary and fiscal policy at any point in time. Especially as these consequences might relate to the financial markets. Over the very short run, could it be that the incredible economic stimulus the Fed and Administration is unleashing (really on the planet) truly causes the cost of "things" to continue to rise, but may also have very little to no influence on wage inflation domestically?
..................
Where we find ourselves at the moment is that the annual rate of change in household personal consumption has been outstripping the annual rate of change in personal income growth. It's more easily seen below.
.....................
Consumption growth has been outdistancing income growth on a rate of change basis for two and one-half years now.
*****************
Misetich

The question the fine writer at contraryinvestor.com asks in the graph (see link - well worth the read) How long can this continue? (reference to consumption growth outdistancing income growth)

The Feds (and Wall Street) are desperately hanging on to previous "successful mantra" being - lets race ahead and things will follow by being over optimistic

The mantra was successful during the "irrational markets" period - yet it has proven to be DISASTROUS for investors, pension plan administrators, insurance managers portfolios etc as TRILLIONS of perceived wealth has evaporated, as on each turn the overoptimistic Fed and Wall Street have place wrong bets

...and once again ..we've reached ANOTHER turning point- as SM have raced ahead again "discounting" another economic recovery - YET - even with the overabundant Fed stimuli it has failed to ignite corporate earnings - who've improved due to cost cuts and currency flactuation

The IT "scam" of the '90's is over. Scam constituted of individuals and corporations turning over every couple of years their software/hardware requirements to accommodate technology improvements

The startk reality which culminated with YE 2000 conversions and updates - is there has been little IT technology improvements both in software/hardware since year 2000. With the advent of the Pentium Chip, bigger hardrives and the saturation point of Windows Operating System technology spending has basically flattened out

Manufacturing has been debased - and unemployment growing -

How long can this continue?

All On Board The Gold Bull Express





misetich
(10/02/2003; 17:54:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109734)
US official-view gov't backs GSE debt dangerous
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031001/financial_mortgages_guarantee_1.htmlSnip:

WASHINGTON, Oct 1 (Reuters) - A U.S. Treasury official said on Wednesday it is important for a new regulator of Fannie Mae (NYSE:FNM - News) and Freddie Mac (NYSE:FRE - News) to clarify the government does not guarantee the debt of the mortgage finance companies.
ADVERTISEMENT

[Ad]

The Treasury Department confirmed Assistant Secretary Wayne Abernathy said after a congressional hearing that allowing the Treasury secretary to review the new agency's regulations would make clear to investors that the companies' debt doesn't have the government backing U.S. Treasuries do.

"He would be able to make sure that nowhere in the regulations is there any suggestion that there's a government guarantee," Abernathy said.

Treasury confirmed that Abernathy declined to comment on whether the new regulator would withdraw the companies' ability to draw up to $2.25 billion each from the Treasury.
*************
Misetich

"Periodic public" announcement by the Treasury Dept -WARNING- (...setting up the stage?) of GSE's catupult?

GSE's an accident ready to happen- its Murphy's Law

All On Board The Gold Bull Express

misetich
(10/02/2003; 18:13:49 MDT - Msg ID: 109735)
"China's Exchange Rate Regime and its Effects on the U.S. Economy"
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/js774.htmSnip:

John B. Taylor Under Secretary of Treasury for International Affairs Testimony
before the Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade, and Technology House Committee on Financial Services
October 1, 2003
......................
The price of Chinese goods in the United States would not change by as much as the change in the exchange rate, because only a portion of most exports from China are produced in China, and because the retail price in the United States includes marketing, transport, and other logistical costs. And with a higher yuan, substitutes for Chinese products would likely come from countries other than China.
..................
Conclusion

I am pleased to report that our efforts to engage in financial diplomacy are bearing fruit. Active engagement with China and other countries is paving the way toward freer markets. The Administration's effort to raise growth in the United States and abroad, and thereby create jobs at home is already showing signs of success.

****************
Misetich

Mr. Taylor was asked to pass the "pipe" to Mr. Snow at the end of his testimony - Mr. Snow took "inhaled" a puff or two through the dragon shaped instrument and turned to a few reporters informing them " ..there has been no change to the strong US $ policy" and he passed on the "pipe" to the next Treasury Official

We all await China next move - as they've been told to revalue your Yaun and sell less ...

All On Board The Gold Bull Express

misetich
(10/02/2003; 18:29:10 MDT - Msg ID: 109736)
Monetary Policy and the Stock Market: Some Empirical Results -Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
http://federalreserve.gov/BoardDocs/Speeches/2003/20031002/default.htmSnip:

However, easier monetary policy not only raises stock prices; as we have seen, it also lowers risk premiums, presumably reflecting both a reduction in economic and financial volatility and an increase in the capacity of financial investors to bear risk.
****************
Misetich

Correction in post misetich (10/02/03; 18:13:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 109735) - erroneously mentioned Mr. Snow to have passed on the "the dragon shaped instrument" to ANOTHER Treasury official -

It is now apparent the individual who accepted the "pipe" and inhaled a few puffs before he spoke was Governor Bernanke - heir apparent to Sir Greenspan

After his third puff, Mr. Bernanke was quoted to blurp out.....lower IR reduces RISKS premiums

Mr. Bernanke was reportedly seen passing on the "pipe to Mr. McTeer.... who after a few puffs declared

"...US economic recovery - simple as 1,2,3 - lets go and buy a SUV.."

All On Board The Gold Bull Express

Dollar Bill
(10/02/2003; 19:13:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109737)
*>*.........+
Finance Minister Sadakazu Tanigaki on Wednesday reiterated that Tokyo would take "decisive" steps against any drastic movements in the foreign exchange markets to stop a strong yen from hurting the economy.

Seems the have decided to continue the dollar support.
China also no doubt.
Lets see, what year is it that they would feel it was time to not? I say not at least for 5 years. Till the Forums 10th anniversary.
What shape will the average US joe be in at that point?
Quite different I will wager.

By the way, clearly looters and thieves are stealing priceless works of art from Tibet and China.
I just bought a 2,000$ Item from that area, it is an absolute masterpiece. Gold leafed of course, and the monks apparently were saving the gold that was falling off over the years, and tucking it in a tight but large pile behind one of the feet. The small store is jammed with stuff one of the family members sends from the Tibet border areas.
I will link a picture one of these days.
Gold bars, or gold leafed art, as Aristotle says, get thou some.

Cavan Man
(10/02/2003; 20:11:20 MDT - Msg ID: 109738)
Courtesy of Harry Schultz....
"I now feel it's best to have gold bars & gold coins as a core holding U don't trade"

What would HS know? What does RR know (9506 is Dow Theory top end!)? Ii'm probably better off taking the advice of those twenty and thirty something "dudes" from SalomanSmith Barney that were so very rude on the flight this evening. Hey, but, they are wired (and have the latest telecom gear)!
Waverider
(10/02/2003; 20:33:47 MDT - Msg ID: 109739)
Operative
De nada!! I haven't had a chance to read it yet...this weekend me thinks! Beware though for anyone printing the article (Saving Canada with Gold Grams) - it is 56 pages. Sounds as though you had a great day...BTW - I also HIDE chocolate - especially the Swiss variety! Cheers,
Waverider
Druid
(10/02/2003; 21:11:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109740)
Dragon at the Back Door
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/willie/093003.htmlSnippit

My constant refrain has been and continues to be: the level of economic understanding, policy and counsel is so abysmal that a galloping recession (or worse) is the most probable scenario, accompanied by price inflation in certain sectors. This country does not admit its errors. It does not detect nor correct its errors. Instead, it compounds its errors by more serious errors. We have no understanding of money or inflation or currency. We regard money much the same as water in pipes to irrigate a field, rather than the output of a day's work. Hence, our fields are flooded and we urge more water to be delivered. The costs and consequences of many years of ineptitude, speculation, fraud, and political sellouts are soon to demand correction by the powerful free markets, which are more powerful than any set of governments. Reconciliation is overdue.

Druid: Great read. This one brought back memories of "no understanding of money or inflation or currency." so I recalled this one:

"Please Define 'Dollar'"

Snippit

Monetary Realists, knowing not so much what they've been taught, but what they've learned with their eyes open and ears tuned, see things clearly, without peering through a haze of misinformation masquerading as knowledge. Like the boy in The Emperor's New Clothes, they make observations which seem to cause frustration and annoyance to those public figures to which they are directed. A case in point is the word "dollar," the definition of which has been sought by Monetary Realists for decades.

Some years ago Paul Volcker, of the Federal Reserve, was lecturing in St. Louis. A Monetary Realist ( not your author ) was in attendance. At the conclusion of Mr. Volcker's remarks, questions were invited, and the Monetary Realist asked, "Mr. Volcker, in your remarks you used the word "dollar" twenty-six ( or whatever ) times. Can you tell me what a dollar is?" There was a remarkable silence. Volcker said nothing. The silence grew protracted; it was embarrassing. "Well, sir, can you tell me what the yen is, or the mark? You mentioned them as well." The silence continued. Eventually, the host made some excuse and hustled Mr. Volcker from the stage.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_02/hein111302.html

Druid: Like my old Professor used to say "that which you are trying to determine is determined in and of itself." Enjoy the reads.
Aristotle
(10/02/2003; 22:40:03 MDT - Msg ID: 109741)
Druid,
Hein's telling of the story of Volcker being dumbstruck when asked to define the dollar... tsk tsk tsk... sounds like an urban legend to me.

There's nothing wrong/bad about accepting the dollar for precisely what it is/isn't. The trick is in knowing what you should do about it in the course of gettin' on with life, 'cause THAT's what it's really all about. Life.

Gold. Get you some. --- Ari
Black Blade
(10/02/2003; 23:33:29 MDT - Msg ID: 109742)
AT&T LIKELY TO CUT 5,000 MORE
http://www.nypost.com/business/7027.htm
Snippit:

October 2, 2003 -- AT&T Corp., the biggest U.S. long-distance telephone carrier, will probably eliminate about 5,000 more jobs, or 7 percent of its work force, as prices and demand fall, said Chief Financial Officer Thomas Horton. AT&T, which eliminated a total of 10,000 positions in 2001 and 2002, is cutting 5,000 non-management jobs this year. "I would suspect that we'll continue down that path and produce that sort of reduction again for the foreseeable future," Horton said at a Goldman Sachs conference for investors in New York.

Black Blade: More nonessential bones added to the growing "Bone Pile". Tomorrow we get last month's unemployment numbers and the usual upward revision of the prior month's data. I am almost afraid to read through the entire BLS report tomorrow. The "Jobless Recovery" looks more "jobless" than ever before.
melda laure
(10/02/2003; 23:39:56 MDT - Msg ID: 109743)
Global Systemic Pollution
My Screwdriver, My kindom for a golden screwdriver!Ed McCarthy, from Doug Noland's site.

snippit: "As we view the global credit scene, we see total chaos, domestically and internationally. An exemplar recently was the ability of Venezuela to find buyers for a debt issuance. This, to us, falls into the category of "what were they thinking?" We noticed in the "Credit Bubble Bulletin" that the demoralized country had sold $700 million of 10's at 12.4%! Internal buyers are demanding well into the mid-20% range for short stuff in refi's. Who's the fool? Yeah, we know, they suffer exchange risk but the spread still tells a story of what the most knowledgeable think. This kind of lunacy occurs in the desperate race to "beat the index" that the geniuses who manage other peoples money (OPM) are engaging in. We diverge from our central theme. RISK ANALYSIS on credit has been superseded by desperation to achieve return.

Emerging market debt issuance is at a peak, junk debt issuance is at a peak, corporate issuance (these guys know a good deal when they see it) is exploding and governmental, particularly U.S. governmental and agency, issuance is parabolic. All this is being done at spreads that, to this observer, totally fail to represent any relevance to real credit risk...."

This is all old news, really; though the reputed size of the global reflation in credit markets and international bond markets is larger than I might have expected- it really is in the trillions. I also recall a Time article back in '98 showing greenspan with a fire hose spewing dollars.

Sombody here was fond of saying "all paper will burn". Well the whole global bond market is really on fire now- positively sizzling. Yesterday somebody was asking how much gold to buy and what to do when it comes time to sell it. The fact of the matter is it is what goes on in the rest of the economy that matters. As long as the increase in dollar credits is running at 30% of GDP per YEAR I dont see why you would EVER sell. We're in a world of finance driven industry where Ford loses money on each car they sell and try to cover their loss by selling you a low interest money loosing loan along with that new truck. The fact is that when this part of the game ends we'll have an america without enough shoe factories nor shirts, cars, or other widgets. Those 5$ shoes from china that sell for 10$ at walmart will be selling for 10 euros wholesale and 25 euros retail and $250 dollars in the US. And the only three people in your town who will be able to afford a pair will be the chief of police, the local egg farmer and possibly you.

In a rational world you would have balance or equilibrium in trade. On one side of the balance beam you'd stack all the goods the world consumes in a year, and on the other side all the gold that is available for commerce - however in this crazy mixed up paper chase we have one side of the balance beam filled with (increasingly flimsy) foreign made junk and increasingly inflated foreign currencies, bonds, derivatives and other phantasms of the darkness, all counterbalanced by dollars, domestic bonds, derivatives and more phantasms of the dark lord of Labor Statistics. And doubt you not that when this crucible is put to the fire, the dross will be burned out, and you will find the price of real goods be dear and the value of gold will be precious.

Belgian
(10/03/2003; 00:59:12 MDT - Msg ID: 109744)
Hoi Druid
The article "Dragon at the Back Door" (GoldenJackass) is an outstanding one imvho.
I combined Willie's in dept views with Duisenberg's talk, yesterday in Portugal.
As a result, I hear Another and Friend screaming louder and louder...CHANGES ARE COMINGGGGG...CHANGES ARE COMINGGGG !!!

I'm glad being alive and *living* through these changes, Ari ! FASCINATING, now that I do "understand" a tiny little bit of it. Thanks Druid.
DummyANI
(10/03/2003; 01:34:40 MDT - Msg ID: 109745)
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 11 27,754�c plus0512 �c 381.1(Dec.2003)
Sep. 12 27,810�c plus0056 �c 380.8
Sep. 15 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....376.9
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 01 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
Aristotle
(10/03/2003; 02:30:47 MDT - Msg ID: 109746)
Hi Belgian
It was nice that Wim could note with satisfaction to the reporters at his final Governing Council meeting that he's stepping away with the euro vis a vis the dollar exactly where it was when took up the office. It's been a long road! Remember the long slide to 82 cents? So not only did he hit the ground running and help it survive the birthing pains and uncertainties, doing what many thought couldn't be done, he's still running in stride and has brought the euro unquestionably up to speed.

If I remember right, a couple days ago you commented that France's budget discipline wasn't going to get a free ride from a sympathetic Trichet. Wim, too, sure didn't sound like France would be let to skate away:

"Last week the French government introduced a new budget. Next Monday the Eurogroup will meet to have a first discussion on that topic and then the timing, the judgement and the ultimate judgement will take another couple of months so that, according to the normal procedures, by about Christmas we should know more and be determined to do what has to be done. In the meantime, today Mr Solbes got from the Governing Council of the ECB all the support he might need for his further endeavours, he being the guardian of the Stability and Growth Pact."

You know, the political process can be a neat thing to watch if you've got pros on stage who have respect for their office.

All the world's an audience of voters, and in the meanwhile the political dollar is an unmitigated mess!

The last word goes to Wim:

"...we can weather any storm."

Gold. Get you some and you'll weather ANYthing short of Doomsday itself. --- Ari
Carl H
(10/03/2003; 02:46:10 MDT - Msg ID: 109747)
Fed approves Citigroup commodity trading
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/031002/financial_citigroup_commodities_1.html--- Snip ---

WASHINGTON, Oct 2 (Reuters) - The Federal Reserve on Thursday allowed Citigroup Inc. (NYSE:C - News) to trade commodities, enabling it to retain control of commodity trader Phibro Inc.

--- End Snip ---

I'm sure that they will be as responsible as JPM in the gold and engery markets. Gag.

Got Gold?
Belgian
(10/03/2003; 02:48:28 MDT - Msg ID: 109748)
Hugh Hendry at CNBC-Europ
The Irish wolf, Hugh, was as sharp as ever in his answers and reflexions. But with more passionate conviction as ever before. A fascinating "contrarian" with a prima track record. Hugh understands Gold and is allowed to express himself !
Belgian
(10/03/2003; 03:08:45 MDT - Msg ID: 109749)
Ari.....
What I really wanted to emphasize, discretely though, (ad nauseum) are those huge, enormous fundamental differences between ECB (euro) and FED (dollar), permanently evidenced AND repudiated by the envious. This wouldn't be relevant here, if it should have nothing to do with Gold. But imvho, it does !
Wim : The POO AND the EURO/$ exchange rate AND euro IRs are OK for Euroland !!!
The ballast of the *burdens* MUST be spread over the entire planet !!!
Q3-'04 : Euro IRs might most probably go UP !!! No negative IRs in EMU.
ECB IS the most transparent CB on the planet !!!
Reunion in Portugal emphasizes the euro-system being "decentralized" !!!
US *must* get its public finances in order (twin deficits-5%)!!!
Exchange rates "must" reflect economic fundamentals !!!
EMU's obsession with *price-stability* works as a red carpet on many furious bulls...I do like this due to my very bad character.
misetich
(10/03/2003; 03:53:38 MDT - Msg ID: 109750)
Enron - Kenneth L. Lay, - Is he next?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36813-2003Oct2.htmlSnip:

Kenneth L. Lay, Enron's former chief executive, was told by a judge to show why he should not have to turn over requested documents to the Securities and Exchange Commission. Lay has refused to provide the documents, citing his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, the SEC said in an application filed with U.S. District Court Judge Royce C. Lamberth in Washington. The documents appear to be corporate records, the SEC said.

*****************
Misetich

Will justice prevail? Ken Lay close ties to the Whitehouse - and with presidential elections coming up - ought to be fun

All On Board The Gold Bull Express



Dollar Bill
(10/03/2003; 05:08:14 MDT - Msg ID: 109751)
*>*.........+
Richenbacher does the math on the real unemployment numbers. Revealing some govt tricks.


"There is still more spinning involved. The government adds every month some 30,000-50,000 imaginary workers to the job total. It is based on the assumption that in an economic recovery a lot of people start their own business. In normal recoveries, they have done so, indeed.


All it needs to activate this statistical job creation is a unilateral decision by the government that the economy is in recovery. Once a year, the statisticians reconcile their assumption with reality by a revision. When they did this in May of this year, 400,000 new jobs that had been reported earlier simply vanished. Such revisions, of course, take place outside the monthly reported job losses. Together, we presume, these statistical casuistries have reduced the reported job losses in the past two years by well over 100,000 per month."
Dollar Bill
(10/03/2003; 05:18:19 MDT - Msg ID: 109752)
*>*.........+
When the deserts run dry of oil, North and South America will be overun with immigrants from the likes of Saudi Arabia. They have nothing else of economic value and won't want to go back to [employment of diminutive stature] and wandering the desert looking for water.
Gold Standard
(10/03/2003; 05:49:03 MDT - Msg ID: 109753)
Property price bubble
More and more has been posted on various sites regarding the property "bubble". I have purposely placed the word "bubble" in inverted commas, because my belief is that it may yet not be a bubble as we have all seen and experienced over the preceding three or so years.

My one nagging concern in that the TRUE property bubble (note: no inverted commas)will only strike when the equities market has run its course.

Let me explain.....

I am not a trained economist, I am merely an observer of the various "ups and downs" of the markets during my limited experience of forty-something years.

My observations (and purely from an Australian context, which appears to echo the world context somewhat) tell me this:-

In 1973/74, when "inflation" raised its head in Australia (and by "inflation" I mean price inflation caused by increased monetary supply) property prices increased dramatically. In the period from 1974 to 1978, my recollection as a young teen was that a vacant block of land with views in a coast location went from less than $2,000 to $8,000. Putting this into historical perspective, let's say one-half of an average family car to 100% of an average family car.

1978/79/80 saw a recession, where University graduates in engineering, teaching and other professions were unlikely to gain employment in their chosen professions upon completion of their degrees. Gold was watched with awe, and I can remember the savage dishoarding of 1966 and 1967 90% silver 50 cent coins when their melt value exceeded their face value. I haven't seen a "round" 50 cent piece for 20-odd years.

Property prices during this recession (and I don't think that they used the "recession" word then) remained stagnant. Property prices did NOT decrease.

From about 1982, the economic activity improved, through to 1987. There were shortages of engineers and teachers, as a result of the employment prospects of years earlier. Property prices during this period increased in a steady, semi-ballistic fashion. My recollection is that a very modest house in a suburb that you would not particularly like to live in was worth $20,000 in 1982, and $50,000 in 1987.

Putting this into perspective, $20,000 in 1982 was 2x the value of an average family car, and $50,000 in 1987 was 3x the value of an average family car.

1987 was, of course, my first experience with a stock market bubble. My Yuppie friends were exhorting me to join the equities mania at that time, which of course ended in tears on Black Tuesday, in October, 1987. I can still recall the radio and TV advertisements leading up to the crash, for "leveraged investments" and the such-like. Day traders ruled the Earth!

Just like the March 2000 blow-off, Australia was less affected by Black Tuesday than the US equities market. However, this led to an immediate re-allocation of investment monies into "bricks-and-mortar", where the $50,000 house suddenly turned into a $100,000 house from 1987 through to 1989.

1989 through 1993 interest rates increased dramatically, which slowed the rate of increase in house prices. 1993 was the "top" of the market, and it was only then that we saw "deflation" of property prices, no doubt due to the interest rate/foreclosure/mortgagee auction effect.

Real life prices of that very ordinary $100,000 house from 1989 to 1993 increased to about $150,000, and then stagnated or fell by about 10%.

Putting this into perspective, it went from 4x an average family car to 5x an average family car over the period.

The only notable cataclysmic reductions in value were "off-the-plan" purchases of holiday units, where agreed prices were not being realised once the home units were built, and a number of people had their fingers burnt as a result.

However, this is the only example in Australia where prices have DECREASED. I can recall that in the USA and UK in 1989/93 that home values fell below mortgage values in some instances, but thankfully, we were reasonably insulated here. And yes, there is a lot of 100% funding.

From 1993 to 1999, house prices in my city (Brisbane Queensland) remained stagnant, but right now that $150,000/$135,000 very ordinary house from 1993 is worth $240,000 at the very least. For perspective, that's 6x an average family car.

What I am trying to say, in my usual inarticulate fashion, is that property, or bricks-and-mortar investment, always gets a spur from a general equities market crash. "Money" is always sloshing around from one "hot" investment to another, and when the equities market tanks, property values WILL increase.

To my mind, and thinking globally now, those presently calling a propety "bubble" may have a surprise in store for them..... My belief is that WHEN the equities market crashes, there is so much liquid funds that is available, that they will fly towards "hard" assets, being bricks-and-mortar, and of course, gold and silver bullion and mining equities.

Initially, AFTER the forthcoming equities crash, I think that we will see the ultimate blow-off of the property "bubble" (that IMO has by no means been reached as yet), and only then the final bubble, that of gold and silver, will rise from the ashes.

Maybe, at least in the USA, crazy lending practices of the last couple of years will lead to mass foreclosures, and as a result, lower property prices at forced auctions.

However, as an Australian observer, this in not a scenariao that I have seen occur in my cognisant life-time. Sure, the interest rate problems in 1989/93 caused many foreclosures, but I do not believe that this significantly affected property values here, apart from leading to a lengthy stagnation.

This is only my opinion, and I would be happy to have the intellectual might of the doyens of this table descend upon me......

Cheers & BOL.
Cavan Man
(10/03/2003; 06:32:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109754)
Dollar Bill
RE: Saudi ArabiaNational Geographic 2003 issue
Cavan Man
(10/03/2003; 06:33:54 MDT - Msg ID: 109755)
Dollar Bill
Sorry. October 2003 issue.
Druid
(10/03/2003; 07:13:51 MDT - Msg ID: 109756)
Aristotle (10/02/03; 22:40:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 109741)
"Hein's telling of the story of Volcker being dumbstruck when asked to define the dollar... tsk tsk tsk... sounds like an urban legend to me.

There's nothing wrong/bad about accepting the dollar for precisely what it is/isn't. The trick is in knowing what you should do about it in the course of gettin' on with life, 'cause THAT's what it's really all about. Life."

Druid: Sir Aristotle(yes, there are qutie a few posters here at this wonderful forum that I would gladly serve the goblets of wine too), I'm not so sure that this can easily be construed as "urban legend." If I'm not mistaken, in Ferdinand Lips book "Gold Wars", I believe there is a passage in there wherein Mr. Volcker requested info. from John Exeter on how to acquire physical gold. I could be wrong, and if I am, my apologies to the table. You are so right about UNDERSTANDING the "trick." Have a great day good sir, I'm off to the shop.
Clink!
(10/03/2003; 07:15:51 MDT - Msg ID: 109757)
@ Gold Standard
My experience in the UK is rather different.

I bought my first house ( a high-end starter in a reasonably prosperous town ) in 1982 for GBP 22k5. Throughout the '80s its value rose to peak in 1988 (as I recall) of around GBP 72k. When I finally sold it a couple of years later, I only got GBP 40k. (The buyer was a wise contrarian who was able to pay cash !) The asking price for something similar now is about GBP 125-130k. So there have been major ups and downs over the years.

I'm not sure how meaningful the family car is as an absolute measure of value or cost (compare today's car and a 1980 model - the degree of sophistication ain't the same!) although I prefer it to the virtual can of tuna. I would prefer to use salaries as a gauge, as there is usually a fairly easy formula to calculate what you can borrow. The bottom of the market is fairly well defined by this.

In 1982, I obtained a 90% mortgage based on 2.5 times my annual salary. These days it is nearer 5 times and 100%. (Note: This is my recollection from a Sunday Times article this past summer, so if anyone here who lives in the UK can confirm or explode that figure, go ahead) The killer is that UK mortgages are effectively 1 month ARMs, and I was paying around 14.5% interest. Imagine what would happen if those rates reappeared now. The mortgage payments could double, to 40-50% of income. Ouch !

C!

cockerel1
(10/03/2003; 07:25:07 MDT - Msg ID: 109758)
Ontario Election!
After living through the lies and the deceipt of a "Liberal" government in Ottawa that constantly has it's hand in everyone's pocket, you would think that the so-called"Engine that drives Canada" would know better.

Well, guess what! Ontario voted in the Liberals, provincially!

Methinks that emasculation of the population is almost complete, and if the rest of the western world is as Ontario, gold will be manipulated for some time yet. But when it breaks out, it will be HUGE!

Oh well. Guess we here in Alberta will be experiencing a growth in population again as some really peed off Ontarians search for sanctuary in the west.

Clink!
(10/03/2003; 07:32:38 MDT - Msg ID: 109759)
POG
Wow ! Check out the volatility this morning !!
C!
goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 07:37:39 MDT - Msg ID: 109760)
Goldstandard: Property vs Stocks vs gold
I agree with you that property prices could increase markedly from here, but only if supported by rapid inflation of the money supply. Money will be diverted to hard assets to some extent from falling stock prices, however we have to remember that most of the markets money is pension funds and retirements accounts and the like. By law this OPM- stupid money has to be invested x percent in bonds and the balance in good equities, a small percentage of which might be REITS which would be commercial and multi-residential. It is privately invested money that will be yanked out and put in real estate and or gold, vacation properties etc.
What argues against this is the fact that mortgage interest can hardly go any lower (except on a real-interest basis)
nor payment terms be made easier. Then there is population growth and jobs.......who is going to be able to afford to buy these homes?
IMO the money-pump priming of the past is ineffective today because it is being pumped into a leaky bag......all that leak going to China. They have to get fiat into the hands of people who are going to spend it on things produced wherever you live. Trickle down does not work; all the liquidity has to go to the lowest level first, so as to trickle up. That is how people who got wealthy honestly made it in the first place. Whatever part of the economy in the US that the rich and Republicans could get going is going or has gone; it now needs a more democratic approach.
(I am speaking from a "keep the dream going point of view" I know the inflation will be ruinous, but it is ruinous one way or the other.)
One thing for sure, prices are going to rise, because the US dollar is sinking. The US is between a rock and a hard place. If foreign goods cost more, then people have less money to spend and tax revenues go down....result depression. Goodbye real estate and banks. Hello Gold!
If the US expands money supply and transfer payments to put more cash in the hands of the poor, then we have accelerating inflation to the relief of banks, guv, local economies and to the horror of stock market and foreign governments holdings bags of ever-depreciating dollars that they can spend on what? US goods or gold. Result: house prices go up but they are still just houses and HELLO GOLD!
goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 07:45:32 MDT - Msg ID: 109761)
Cockerell: New Governments
As an Ontarian small landlord I am not in favour of the rent-controlling liberals; however Ontarians got tired of divisive, Grumpy Old Men running the province. IMO liberals will tax and spend, give more money to the poor, raise taxes. Result: taxes will increase.
Clink!
(10/03/2003; 07:57:05 MDT - Msg ID: 109762)
@ Goldenboy
I am in the process of selling my rental property (closing is in a couple of weeks). From what I gather from your post, you would be suggesting that I put my profits into either gold or .... gold. Just as well we agree !!
C!
cockerel1
(10/03/2003; 08:13:57 MDT - Msg ID: 109763)
goldenboy - msg#: 109761

Does no-one stop to think!

Who are you punishing by voting out those "Grumpy Old Men"?

goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 08:30:55 MDT - Msg ID: 109764)
Cockerell; Politics, the Populace, the Economy
The populace thinks they are punishing other grumpy old men. And no, noone ever stops to think. What they are thinking here is that kids should have text books and grumpy old men should not have to wait in a line-up at the hospital. Rent should be free,,and so on. Also, working together has more appeal than calling people pinheads.

Anyway, this is all fiddling while Rome burns. It really does not matter who is in power where on a macro scale because it is just a matter of timing. Your house, your possessions, perhaps your life will ultimately be in peril due to greed,deceit,and general decay of morals and ethics.
The vested interests are the twin whores: Government and Banks who must work together to preserve their power over us. It is government of the people, not for the people.
So, we will have inflation, then deflation to make $ appear good, then inflation or whatever the poweers that be think we need at that moment to keep the system going. However corrupt systems have a way of disintegrating which is why we need gold. Gold is only gold and a dolar is......well, apparently even Paul Volcker cannot tell you what that is.

goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 08:36:07 MDT - Msg ID: 109765)
Clink: Put your rental property profits in gold!
If I were to sell right now,I would put at least half into physical gold and the balance into at least 15 acres and an easy to heat home in the country far away from the maddening crowd. Do you have rent controls where you are?
cockerel1
(10/03/2003; 08:57:41 MDT - Msg ID: 109766)
Sir goldenboy!
I have reposted Sir silvercollector's post #109006.

IMO, it explains everything that I was trying to say (It's about the U.S. but applies)


silvercollector (9/20/03; 05:11:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 109006)
Since it's the weekend I hope I can drift slightly off topic........
Here's an email from a buddy yesterday.....



Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

Capital Gains Tax

CDL license Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Court Fines (indirect taxes)

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)

Hunting License Tax Inheritance Tax

Interest expense (tax on the money)

Inventory tax

IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)

IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)

Liquor Tax

Local Income Tax

Luxury Taxes

Marriage License Tax

Medicare Tax Property Tax

Real Estate Tax

Septic Permit Tax

Service Charge Taxes

Social Security Tax

Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)

Sales Taxes

Recreational Vehicle Tax

Road Toll Booth Taxes

School Tax State Income Tax

State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

Telephone federal excise tax

Telephone federal universal service fee tax


Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes

Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax

Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax

Telephone state and local tax

Telephone usage charge tax

Toll Bridge Taxes

Toll Tunnel Taxes

Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)

Trailer registration tax

Utility Taxes Vehicle License Registration Tax

Vehicle Sales Tax

Watercraft registration Tax

Well Permit Tax

Workers Compensation Tax


COMMENT: Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the
most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the
largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.
What the hell happened?
goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 09:09:52 MDT - Msg ID: 109767)
Sir Cockerell: There is likely no inconsistency in our intellectual views
I was merely reporting how the populace feels..

Your friends memo is great........as to "what the hell happened over 100 years?" well, the federal reserve system and income taxes in short.
North America is doomed at the very least to the British experience following WW1&2 and at worst a cross between that and the German experience. More on this later.
goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 09:21:45 MDT - Msg ID: 109768)
Famous Last Words: It Could Never Happen Here
and of course its corollary.....this time it is different.

What does the US share in its history post WW2 with Germany, Britain and their history prior to WW2?
Clink!
(10/03/2003; 09:30:24 MDT - Msg ID: 109769)
@ Goldenboy
No, I'm in Florida now, so it could never happen here ! Actually, I benefited from them when I rented in France when Mitterand was - rather heavy-handedly - trying to 'socialize' the country.
C!
Gandalf the White
(10/03/2003; 09:48:22 MDT - Msg ID: 109770)
YES !!! Sir Clink! --- the US$ is having a VOLATILITY fit also !
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0GET OUR THE SEASICKNESS PILLS !
<;-)
Gandalf the White
(10/03/2003; 09:49:44 MDT - Msg ID: 109771)
OOPS
that should have been "GET OUT" !!
darn fingers !
<;-(
goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 09:50:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109772)
Clink: I envy you; it is unseasonably cold here in Canada.
What motivated you to sell your real estate and what are you doing with proceeds?
Ten Bears
(10/03/2003; 09:52:43 MDT - Msg ID: 109773)
"Iron law of wages"
http://www.um.dk/udenrigspolitik/copenhagenseminars/summary97/sum_4_2.aspAn addition to the discussion on the loss of American jobs and manufacturing base;
cockerel1
(10/03/2003; 10:15:19 MDT - Msg ID: 109774)
WOW!
London closed and gold took a BIG hit! Down to $372 and change.

What happened?
cockerel1
(10/03/2003; 10:23:26 MDT - Msg ID: 109775)
Employment!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031003/markets_bonds_j0bs_1.htmlCan anyone explain who is hiring and creating these jobs?

Are they government positions, military positions or are these numbers just "Rose coloured Glasses" numbers to artificially boost the markets?

Guess the manipulators (crooks) are earning their money today!
Jing Zu
(10/03/2003; 10:29:43 MDT - Msg ID: 109776)
What is going on????
Does anyone know what just happened to the POG? Did someone sell a lot? WOW!
G$
(10/03/2003; 10:34:36 MDT - Msg ID: 109777)
Not easy
Well people, no one said it would be easy. Silver was an easy mark this morning and they finally tripped a little panic gold selling. As frustrating this is in the short term, it still may be the last fakeout before we break higher. Bets anyone?!?!?!! ;-)
Waverider
(10/03/2003; 10:36:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109778)
Cockerel1
I think this scenario has the signature of the cabal all over it. I'm sure the numbers were massaged and that they are no 'suprise' at all...the PM market was targeted once London closed, and hmmm....on a Friday! Remember that Uponroof once said that the "volatility" of POG will increase the higher it goes. I'm hanging tight on my board for the sudden downdraft into the trough! I look forward to Black Blade's comments in today's DMR. Cheers,
Waverider
Jing Zu
(10/03/2003; 10:39:57 MDT - Msg ID: 109779)
Well, Take that !
I suppose that some ONE or some ENTITY has just decided to sell at least 500 tones to bring the POG down that much?

Some one on this forum ususally has access to who was selling what. I think that I have seen that before?

Anyway, I am happy to know that I can always find some excellent ideas from this forum.

GET SOME WHILE THE PRICE IS LOW!
Gandalf the White
(10/03/2003; 10:52:21 MDT - Msg ID: 109780)
WOWSERS ---- WHAT HAPPENED ??? MANIPULATION ????
You think that the NY Cabal could possibly be even thinking of MANIPULATION ?
NAW !!
just because RIGHT after the Futures closed in London and the NY is the only market open at the end of the week -- THEY would not try to take advantage, WOULD THEY ?
IF, they were to try and MANIPULATE the gold market, THE REGULATORY people would immediatly slap their hands, YES ?
<;-(
PS: NOW a bunch of little RED "O"'s are going to arrive on the P&F chart -- WHICH is a really big BLASTOFF flame from the GOLDEN ROCKET !!
(once the ROCKET arrives on the scene)
HOLD ON to the PRECIOUS !
Jing Zu
(10/03/2003; 11:03:59 MDT - Msg ID: 109781)
Thank you! Gandalf the White!
Good! I am excited! Show me that chart with the little red rings... I would enjoy peeping at that for a while.

G$
(10/03/2003; 11:08:41 MDT - Msg ID: 109782)
50 period EXP MA
I use charts as do many so make up your own mind on this one, but I like to buy stocks in up trends at their 50 period EXP MA, and lo and behold here we are.

You just need a big set of you know what's to buy on a day like today!?!?!?!

G$
goldenboy
(10/03/2003; 11:09:44 MDT - Msg ID: 109783)
Friday Noon Attack!
So, starting at noon it drops like a rock $12 after the dollar goes up a cent in the previous hour. (INO charts)
Guess their supporters are sending out margin letters as we speak. Guess they need gold and are shaking out the paper traders. Long live physical!
Survivor
(10/03/2003; 11:11:16 MDT - Msg ID: 109784)
Winds Of Change


To any of the manipulators, lemmings, or sheep who happen to be listening - I would like to offer my personal thanks for this buying opportunity.

To the esteemed knights of this round table, thanks for some particularly excellent discussions this week.

- Survivor

Clink!
(10/03/2003; 11:11:33 MDT - Msg ID: 109785)
@ Goldenboy
Don't envy me too much - I'm spending all next week in Milwaukee !

Why are we selling ? The market here is looking very toppy (lots of 'For Sale' signs up for extended periods), and, as you can tell from the post earlier, I was badly burnt in the UK (Once bitten, twice shy). As you can't really time real estate except in very broad terms, I just wanted to safe rather than sorry. As the property has gone up by 30% in two years, I wanted to take out some profits. There were other reasons, not the least being a/ the rental market is very soft (everyone in the large condo rental market has bought eg our outgoing tenant) and b/ the insurance premiums had gone up so much that we had negative cashflow.

What will we do with the fiat ? Pay off the short term debt and give CPM a call, of course !!
C!
Great Albino Bat
(10/03/2003; 11:48:21 MDT - Msg ID: 109786)
The N.Y. boyz did a fine job today!

Thank you so much, boyz!

My purchase order will be filled Wednesday next at the latest. Push gold down a bit more, won't you - please? Why not try for - $355? You can do it if you put your mind to it.

We know you are desperate, boyz. What a fine mess you've got yourselves in!

The inscrutable Orientals must be quite pleased with your gift.

You are only fooling yourselves, silly dogs!

The GAB
Mr Gresham
(10/03/2003; 12:19:57 MDT - Msg ID: 109787)
Incoming!
It's war, and we've all been drafted as frontline soldiers, whether we know it or not. Just that most people think of their foxholes as homes and offices. We Goldmeisters are back here at the Medevac unit, though, and we see the casualties coming in...

In another voice, "how dey do dat?"
Husky
(10/03/2003; 12:21:01 MDT - Msg ID: 109788)
Cabal is desperate
So desperate that they don't care any more who can see it. They just want out of their shorts - Yee Haw!!
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
(10/03/2003; 12:48:57 MDT - Msg ID: 109789)
The fruit of your labor: exchange today's value for TIMELESS value!
http://www.usagold.com/gold-coins.html

Swiss gold francs

Harvest Time
Whatever it is that you may have sown,
we'll give you the power to reap GOLD.

1-800-869-5115
Centennial has three decades of experience in the field.

CoBra(too)
(10/03/2003; 12:48:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109790)
Yes, Sir Gandalf!
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.pnf?chart=$GOLD,PLUA[PA][DA][F!3!3.5!]⪯f=G- On a day like today it pays to keep the long term perspective in clear sight!

Just got back from the "Gnomes" of Zurich and they are only starting to refocus on gold as an investment category and may still miss the opportunity, which is still is in its infancy.

Who'm these guys are hoping to be kidding escapes me, though I feel some major shorts "HAD" to be rescued. Hung Fat and his friends may be happily licking their chops, to the chagrin of todays sellers...

Love the action, though - Best cb2
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 13:13:41 MDT - Msg ID: 109791)
What represents YOUR wealth?
When the futures contracts sell off as we see today, the gold can be confidently acquired at bargain derivative-based prices for as long as the metal can yet be loosened from bewildered hands and unallocated accounts. How long will that be? Wisdom will come to all sooner or later, or else they will be dispossessed and will no longer factor into the equation.

Remember this: in times of economic stress, it is only ownership of the METAL that carries the full complement of financial benefits that have been reliably associated with gold throughout history. In the final analysis paper is only paper and can be expected to undergo discounting or failure as the stress level rises.

Choose gold, and when you do, accept only the real thing. The arrangement of ink on paper, no matter how particular the letters and numbers, is not the same thing as gold. It's as simple as this: no one bids on rotten lettuce at the farmers market.

R.
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
(10/03/2003; 13:30:57 MDT - Msg ID: 109792)
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has beenupdated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our freeintroductory information packet detailing the products and services offeredby USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and lookforward to working with you.

Gold and silver sold lower as a large fund broke ranks on slightly positive employment data and as the U.S. dollar weakened less than its rivals the Yen and Euro. Yet oil surged above $30/bbl increasing costs to businesses and consumers.
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 13:56:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109793)
Ultimately a paper event
http://www.iii.co.uk/shares/?type=news&articleid=4762523∾tion=articleSAN FRANCISCO (AFX) -- Gold futures fell as much as $17 an ounce to their lowest level in over a month, as sharp gains in the broader markets and fresh strength in the dollar took investors' attention away from the precious metals market.

On the New York Mercantile Exchange, gold futures fell by as much as $16.70 to trade at a low of $367 an ounce, their lowest level since Aug. 27. The futures market hasn't seen a daily price decline over $11 an ounce since July 22 of last year, according to John Person, head financial analyst at Infinity Brokerage Services.

Despite the latest decline, Person said he still sees "gold as a strong candidate to reach over $400 by the year's end." Gold made a dramatic sell-off in just minutes Friday because very large traders liquidated their positions and triggered technical sell-stops in the market, he explained.

----(from url)----

Paper was sold off, and thus the pricing mechanism for the whole yellow realm was influenced lower. A pricing gift for those with genuine gold (metal) acquisition intentions.

R.
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 14:07:50 MDT - Msg ID: 109794)
Har har har! Synchronicity with today's pricing action!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com:80/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=215134HEADLINE: [INDIA] Gold, silver futures trade starts

NEW DELHI: After a 42-year gap, India on Friday launched futures trading in gold and silver to help maintain price stability in these precious metals. The futures will be traded online.

India is a major consumer, using 800 tonnes of gold and 3,500 tonnes of silver a year.

[The newly launched futures market] is expected to curb wild fluctuations in prices as a response to domestic or international trends and cushion the bullion market.

-----(see url)-----

If we've covered it here once, we've covered it a thousand times; any expansion you see of the paper gold market is all about price SUPPRESSION for the underlying metal.

Don't be fooled. Choose gold in metal form and let the paper gold rot like heaps of lettuce under the sun.

R.
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 14:21:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109795)
Paper use to spread in the Bombay Bullion Association?
http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?Menu=22&story=24408October 4, 2003 -- The Bombay Bullion Association hopes to start gold futures trading by Diwali this year...

A bullion consultant pointed out that since major business in the trade takes place only on cash basis, "there's a question of faith, which could pose a major problem".

Some of the large bullion importers and exporters, however, feel that futures trading will enable them to focus their energies on production, since the price risk will be taken care of.

According to a bullion veteran, Ashish Ghiya, this will develop a gold yield curve in Indian rupees and even lead to the development of a long term gold swaps curve as and when the same is opened further.

-----(see url)-----

When the supply of artificial gold is boosted, the price of this rotting lettuce is sure to fall as more and more people finally come to understand that it isn't as good as gold.

Right now the vested bullion banking interests are afraid to let the metal have a market of its own!

R.
a nation of one
(10/03/2003; 14:34:29 MDT - Msg ID: 109796)
hmm...

If I remember correctly --and of course I do-- I said it made sense to think that pog would go up. Therefore I claim first prize for the most wrong prediction. But don't worry, I'll do worse next time. Dang. If it goes down another sixty points, I will have a margin call. After I began wrecklessly posting my turbid comments on this forum, I somehow acquired a talent for timing my worst predictions at just the wrong times. Nobody else has acquired exactly this same skill, to the extent I have, I notice. It seems there are so many different things the market can do, besides what I tell it, that I --yes, even I-- have now started being wrong once or twice in a century. What really worries me, however, is that I told someone in 1980 that gold would never be below fifty dollars again. Gee. What if I was wrong about that?
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 14:45:34 MDT - Msg ID: 109797)
Pseudo-gold market: the bigger it gets, the bigger the crash when it falls
http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?Menu=22&story=24421You need look no further than India today for your insights into the stark price action of the day. Adds supply to paper gold, and importantly diverts investor/hedger demand pressures away from the small physical market.

HEADLINE: Bullion FUTURES trade resumes after 41 years

New Delhi, October 4, 2003 -- Futures trading in gold and silver began in India -- the world's largest gold buyer -- after a gap of more than four decades today, giving bullion traders the option of hedging against price fluctuations.

Consumer Affairs Minister Sharad Yadav formally inaugurated gold futures trading by placing the first order on the terminal of Geojit Infofin, a leading member of the National Multi Commodity Exchange of India Ltd (NMCE)...

The NMCE is India's first de-mutualised electronic multi-commodity exchange. By adding gold and silver to the list of 47 agricultural and non-agricultural commodities traded by it, the NMCE has joined the ranks of the best international commodity exchanges, such as New York-based COMEX, Tokyo's TOCOM and Shanghai Gold Exchange.

India had a reasonably thriving bullion (gold and silver) futures market before it was banned in 1962 through the Gold Control Act. [Randy's note: Ahhhhh... but today we have the folly of forgetfulness.]

[Key point of all of this is coming up...]

According to NMCE managing-director Kailash Gupta, the Indian wholesale traders, fabricators and investors will now have an effective tool to hedge their price risk in the international market and, thus, play a dominant role in determining the international gold prices.

------(see url for article)------

At the article's conclusion,

-----Asked whether speculators could manipulate the prices to their advantage through futures trading, he said this was unlikely because trading in precious metals required big money. "This would be a big market players' casino," he quipped. -----

In other words, the small fry like you and I will have no influence in this arena, whereas those with big money ready at their elbow (i.e., bullion banks) may drive it where they like.

Bow out of the paper gold market entirely and make your impact felt on the physical market. Thus, you and your will cannot be controlled.

Amen.

R.
MK
(10/03/2003; 15:06:04 MDT - Msg ID: 109798)
Randy: Big Day at the Castle, Miner calls with an observation
Had a call from Miner 49er today and he thought that India might have something to do with the drop today as well. In a fledlgling market like that they very well could have taken an order they couldn't lay off in India and decided to hit Comex when no one was looking. I'm wondering if that might not be the case. This looked awfully odd to me. Talked to several people in the industry and no one could identify the cause of such a big drop.

We had a very busy day today. Lots of physical buying all afternoon and it's still going on. We'll be open to take orders for about another hour or so.

Miner said he might post if he gets a chance -- on a tight schedule himself.
MK
(10/03/2003; 15:28:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109799)
Good series of posts, Randy.....
If the intention is to shake the faith of gold investors and advocates, I have news for gold's opponents:

You can't shake the faith of gold owners (as grounded as it is), but you can sure provide a buying opportunity. As one investor said to me today, "I don't see how any of the reasons for owning gold have changed the result of today's price drop."
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 15:34:05 MDT - Msg ID: 109800)
MK, glad to hear you spoke with Miner
Throughout the day we've had a good email discussion going on this topic and sundry. Probably should have done it all on the forum, but was driven by some comments and observations that called for more candor than would be appropriate for public consumption. But my last comment to Miner on it went something like this:

The greater the numbers that get burned on paper which fails to perform as promised, the more likely it is that it will be struck down -- WITH democratic blessings -- thus making the mandate endure.

The burnt hand is the best teacher.

With luck, he'll put his principal energies into a forum response good for all instead of an email limited to my personal viewing. But, honestly, I'll take whatever I get. I swear, he's nearly as busy as I am! (I'll admit, I've dallied here at the forum long enough already today, but I thought this presentation of the day's news needed to be told from a suitable soapbox.)

R.
Belgian
(10/03/2003; 16:00:31 MDT - Msg ID: 109801)
Keep on smiling....
Because our Towncrier, Sir Randy, has it more than correct...Let the paper gold rot like heaps of lettuce under the (dollar) sun...
...Afraid to let the metal have a market of its own...

Let (London based) Andy Smith have the (his) India gold paper bazar...and try to attrackt more scrap for GFMS statistical, misleading, adjustments.

Buy and read Robert Bell's book on stockmarket fraud...and understand to what extend we are fooled in the market arena ! All gladiators must die !

Demand, wish and hope for more and much further reaching paper gold suppression so that you can accumulate the real physical wealth-fundamental with worthless, over-valued, printed matter !

Physical Gold Advocates do applaud every decline in Gold's price as to add to their WEALTH stash. Gold is and must be about WEALTH ! Any other attitude-approach towards Gold is a capitulation before the paper-powers.
Gold Wealth isn't a "glowing" (WGC) thing .

Smile and always wish for a (much) lower POG that (physically) suits you best. You are NOT alone with this. Become a Wealth Holder...an owner of this very limited wealth .
Protect yourself, at fulliest, before everyone sees how naked the ugly paper emperor really is.

Don't forget that goldpaper can move the POG too fast, too high as to deter/discourage the natural physical accumulators ! Goldpaper forces do NOT tolerate Physical disturbance, unbalancing their lockstep discipline..."their" market...their paper market !!!

POG's behavior since september 1999 (and earlier) must be interpreted as a battle between paper and physical Gold !
Those who "stay" on the physical side are consolidating their wealth...those who are on the paper side are and remain wealthless !!!
But, there is sooo much profound (historical) emotion, into this word/notion of "wealth" that it will always remain a very difficult subject !!! Even for the majority of (Western) goldbugs. Unfortunately, this wealth-notion is fully exploited by the rabiate gold-containers of the (their) UNFREE Goldmarket for innocent, ignorant, collectivists.

As the paper-books are marked up in this Q4 for the end of '03...wealth-accumulators will keep on smiling.
Boilermaker
(10/03/2003; 16:02:10 MDT - Msg ID: 109802)
Job Situation in NE Ohio
Not to dispute the numbers from BLS but here's what's in my local newspaper today.


Republic idles workers
Nearly 2,500 go home as company seeks new loan
By Gloria Irwin
Beacon Journal business writer


Mike Cardew, ABJ

The Republic Engineered Products plant in Canton is one of six locations where the majority of salaried and union employees were sent home early Thursday.
Cash-strapped Republic Engineered Products LLC abruptly sent home nearly all of its 2,500 workers Thursday afternoon.
The surprise move came a day after the company filed a report with the Securities and Exchange Commission acknowledging that:

� It is in default on a major bank loan.

� It can't make interest payments on its bonds.

� It will be in default on a $5 million loan from the Ohio Department of Development.

The company has been fighting for its life since Aug. 14 when an explosion and fire severely damaged its blast furnace in Lorain. It had just resumed steel production on Monday after idling many employees in Canton and Lorain for several days.

Posted on Fri, Oct. 03, 2003

Akron General lays off 60 workers
Hospital blames rising insurance, labor costs. Nurses, other patient-care staff safe
By Cheryl Powell
Beacon Journal medical writer

Akron General Medical Center laid off 60 workers throughout the hospital Thursday to help trim costs.
The work force reduction is needed to help deal with increasing costs in such areas as labor, malpractice insurance, supplies and pharmaceuticals, hospital spokesman Joe Jerek said.
Hospitals have been getting flat or reduced reimbursements from government and private insurers in recent years while their operational costs continue to climb, he said.

Comment:
It's not surprising around here to see the steel jobs go down the tubes but when the hospitals start the layoffs that's another matter. Maybe we can send our sick to China.

TGIF and good weekend to all!

Boilermaker

steady
(10/03/2003; 17:04:16 MDT - Msg ID: 109803)
(No Subject)
Its great to know the true size , shape, and weight of your wealth especially in light of gold the judge, arbitrator, and executioner of fiat 'script worthless(even in some cases negative as it represents debt)is methodicly and with a ever increasing earthly single minedness is digging out of deep storage ,its tools!
steady
(10/03/2003; 17:25:11 MDT - Msg ID: 109804)
"GOOD STUFF"
goldbugs unite sin a single mindlessness. see what people are realizing that hey yes i can conceptualize and understand the inverse relationship btetween gold and the dollar and i can conceputualize and even at time vizualize the makeup of the fimnancial markets . finnally leading to the cullmination realization that our fiat federal reserve notes a a figment of our creation or imagination. {what in the tarnation, how could this be to a once great nation)
thats why conscuiousness is increasing as individuals are being forced to think for themselvs, as what path is best for them.(we know the trail and try to guid many to it, as i think robert frost once siaid i travel the path less chosen )we ere know the answer both for individuals and for the entire planet.
the answer is ecoism similar to the ideaism of nationalism that united nations but very different. so different i had to make that term up to sdescribe what we are seeing after the fall of imperalism and the fall of capitalism as in capitolism you have to have capitol to have capitolism and with a federalreserve note baed upon faith and credit(debt there neve was such a thing as capitolisma fter 1971) what replaced it was derivitism the excesses are finally manifesting themselfvs 31 yearts latter as derivative upon derivative was derived untill the stock market was forced to take a dive.
but u see ecoism is similar but different from mercantilism as well. for it was mercantilism that caused the wealth of many countries in latin america and africa to be taken to foreign lands . see ecism is the desire of individuals, not govts or banks or financial instituiton but individuals one mind at a time, one realization that time is your capitola nd one that time is gone your capitol shound not be subject to a drecrease in value just cause some dude enters a few keystrokes on a computer to sell 4kabazillion units of account to decrease the unit u are storing your wealth in at the moment so u do not have the ability to not only create wealth but learn how to live with prosperity, that every individual shouls hav the opportunity to do if thru paractical use of there capitol(time ) they have earned it.
ecoism embraces individual lie this. ecoism want to succed on earth, and the best thing about ecoism since it is an isma nd an idea it can not be contained by fences (hello israel take ing hte place of east germay) or borders or for that matter planets!
since it is an ism and an idea it is subject to its antithesis and who know what it turns into or becomes. but it will morph and develope alife of its own in conjunction with ever increasing mintings of the dinar(second minting soon to be happening, third im sure in the planning stages,and eventually the restablishing of gold with its anchor silver but thats another story for another diacussion) but ecoism alive and well !
gold and silver
honest money for
honest people!
Federal_Reserves
(10/03/2003; 17:44:27 MDT - Msg ID: 109805)
Hidden bombshell in the labor report
Average weekly earnings fell. Fell by a penny. So what?

For the first time in 14 years, the monthly number FELL!

Are we facing the final result of the asset and credit bubble that burst in 2000?

Take a look at the latest weekly summaries of money supply from the Federal Reserve....

The absolute level of Money supply (M2) is now falling.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2

Is Deflation Here?

Are we on the cusp of collapse?

Are we facing the collapse of the financial twin towers?

How long can the twin towers of trade and government deficits be maintained on the shifting and unstable sand bars of private debt that is growing at 1trillion dollar annual rates? Is a forex missle aimed straight at our towers?

Know this: during 9/11 the towers collapsed and thousands killed were killed an injuried. On the bottom of the towers in the vast wreckage, laid 250million in gold bullion, stored in the COMEX warehouse, the towers and COMEX exchange collapsed but the gold was retrieved under the wreckage.

Is there a lesson here?
Sancho
(10/03/2003; 18:03:49 MDT - Msg ID: 109806)
A Nation of One
Re Msg l09796, an enjoyable post with respect to timing, but I cannot let you have all the notoriety by yourself. I have fine-tuned the Midas Touch In Reverse also. I sold 40 grand of SouthWestern Gold exactly one day before their Asian play and subsequent quadrupling.
Gandalf the White
(10/03/2003; 19:04:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109807)
THERE it is ! And as a bonus -- A RED "A" !!! <;-)
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.pnf?c=$GOLD,PYES SIR, Sir's CB2 and Jing Zu --- A RED "A" (standing for the Month of Oct.) and FIVE (5) (count them) FIVE RED "O"'s !!!!!
THAT looks like a WONDERFUL BLASTOFF Rocket exhaust display to me !! Now all we need is a THREE BLACK "X"'s ROCKET !
Get ready for the TRIP TO THE MOON, by gathering all the YELLOW PHYSICAL that you can at these GIVE AWAY PRICES !
The Hobbits went out this afternoon and came back with CLINK, CLINK, CLINK !
<;-)
Gandalf the White
(10/03/2003; 19:13:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109808)
AND now a BET against the TA of the P&F chart !
IF you read and belive the "ALERT" High Pole Warning --
Premilimary Price Objective in this Reverse = $344.0 !
I will turn in my Crystal Ball to Sir Slingshot if this PO is fulfilled !! The CABAL has "boughtout" the Chartist that drew this chart !! OR, to put it in kinder words --
AFTER almost a full week of making errors on disappearing RED "O"'s, THIS PO is another BIG MISTAKE !!
NO WAY !! We will not see $344.0 !!!!
<;-)

21mabry
(10/03/2003; 19:43:20 MDT - Msg ID: 109809)
Tough Day
I did not look at the markets until about 2pm today.I was babysitting my niece she is 13 months.Changing diapers and feeding and caring for a baby is a hard job.My hats off to those of you who have raised families.All I can say was what a surprise I got when I turned on Bloomberg.Precious metals physical and paper took a beating today.I am not surprised there was a pullback just by the size of it.You have got to hand it to the anti metal forces they are going down swinging.I hope no one is selling into this weakness.I personaly am gonna try and scrap up some funds to buy some silver.Silvers drop surprised me the most I really thought 5 U.S.D an oz was the new floor.O well we will see what next week brings.One last thought Bloomberg is so much better than cnbc.Bloomberg covers commodities than have commodity traders on and discuss the PM market its just so superior to cnbc.Do you ever see how giddy cnbc gets when the markets go they are like kids in high school taking about how cute someone is.Have good weekend everyone 21
steady
(10/03/2003; 20:46:38 MDT - Msg ID: 109810)
ecoism
eco as in economics specific monetary policy on the individual basis .
sounds like echo as it will reverberate through the know financial world with ever increasing pitch,depth and duration untill one day ecoism provides the impitus (catalyst ) for the freeing of gold so it can become once again harmonious with all commerce, public and private on planet earth!

ecosism- to be further refined, define, maligned utilimatly to face death or acceptance thru the test of ideas into reality.
open your mind help set gold free should b the plea along with
honest money

gold and silver
honest money for
honest people!
TownCrier
(10/03/2003; 21:43:25 MDT - Msg ID: 109811)
Belgian.

Thanks.

R.
THX-1138
(10/03/2003; 21:48:04 MDT - Msg ID: 109812)
Trip to local coin dealer
I went to my local coin dealer today to pick up 10 oz. of silver and a bunch of plastic 50-cent piece tubes.

Except for the specialty coins and bullion in the display case the store only had three 10 oz. bars for sale. No junk coins, no bullion rounds....nothing.

The coin guy said that there was almost no over-the-counter sales of silver coming into the store.

supplies getting tight. Get it while you can!!!
Dollar Bill
(10/03/2003; 21:55:36 MDT - Msg ID: 109813)
*>*.........+
President of the Dallas Fed Robert McTeer responding to a question after his speech Wednesday at the Kanaly Trust Company Distinguished Lecture reception:
"What is my opinion of the current account deficit? Just to define the terms a little bit, the trade deficit is the excess of our imports of goods over our exports of goods. The current account deficit adds services and some other things in the balance of payments. It's a better measure of our trading relationship with the rest of the world. In college in the 1960s when you studied things like that the answer was that a fairly large and sustained current account deficit -- if you have a floating exchange rate -- will cause the exchange rate to decline until it brings about equilibrium.

The U.S. is a little bit of an exception to that, in that its dollar is used all over the world as a currency by a lot of people and it's held by central banks all over the world as a reserve currency. To some extent, the world has long been willing to hold the excess dollars that we put out by buying more than we sell to the rest of the world. And we get sort of a free ride. Sort of like we're in a poker game and we never have to cash in our chips. In the late nineties, when we were doing so, we had such a dynamic economy, particularly compared to the Eurosclerosis in Europe, there was a lot of funds floating to the United States from Europe that sort of artificially held up our dollar and made the current account deficit larger. In the 1960s you learned that trade was independent and capital flows were the financing mechanism -- they were sort of passive.

But these days capital flows are kind of independent too, and one could almost argue, not that our capital inflow is financing our current account deficit, one could almost argue that our current account deficit is financing our capital inflows. So long as that is happening, and as long as we are regarded as the dynamic economy and the best place in the world to invest, our large current account deficit is not going to cause us any problem. The problem will come when people change their mind about all that and they've decided, maybe suddenly, that the world has too many excess dollars and they'd like to sell a lot of them all at once in the foreign exchange market. If they did that all at once, we would experience an exchange rate crisis. We'd do no telling what to react to it. I don't know exactly what would happen, but it wouldn't be good. But we've had the potential for that to happen for several years now and it hasn't. Most of the countries that own a lot of the dollar balances don't have any real incentive to trigger a crisis like that. They would perhaps be hurt as much as anybody else by such a crisis. What is it they say: "If you owe the bank a little money, you've got a problem. If you owe it a lot of money, the bank's got a problem." We might be in that situation."

"One of the great things about moving to Texas after the banking crisis was that Texans are willing to talk about their bank failures, their own failures, and there's no embarrassment about it whatsoever. It's a very entrepreneurial country and we're in the center of the entrepreneurial part of the country. And we'll survive whatever they throw at us. I don't know what the next external shock might be. It might just be that the current account deficit finally reaches a tipping point."
Druid
(10/03/2003; 22:06:32 MDT - Msg ID: 109814)
Belgian (10/03/03; 00:59:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 109744)
"The article "Dragon at the Back Door" (GoldenJackass) is an outstanding one imvho.
I combined Willie's in dept views with Duisenberg's talk, yesterday in Portugal.
As a result, I hear Another and Friend screaming louder and louder...CHANGES ARE COMINGGGGG...CHANGES ARE COMINGGGG !!!

I'm glad being alive and *living* through these changes, Ari ! FASCINATING, now that I do "understand" a tiny little bit of it. Thanks Druid."

Druid: Belgian, you're welcome, and anytime I can contribute to our cause I will. Man I've been on travel the last couple of days and we have a long way to go in this country before belief transitions to knowledge and then on to understanding. Bugs, get your hands on as much physical as you can and dig in because the transition from delusion to reality is going to be a difficult one.
Druid
(10/03/2003; 22:40:36 MDT - Msg ID: 109815)
Dollar Bill (10/3/03; 21:55:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 109813)
"The U.S. is a little bit of an exception to that, in that its dollar is used all over the world as a currency by a lot of people and it's held by central banks all over the world as a reserve currency. To some extent, the world has long been willing to hold the excess dollars that we put out by buying more than we sell to the rest of the world. And we get sort of a free ride. Sort of like we're in a poker game and we never have to cash in our chips. In the late nineties, when we were doing so, we had such a dynamic economy, particularly compared to the Eurosclerosis in Europe, there was a lot of funds floating to the United States from Europe that sort of artificially held up our dollar and made the current account deficit larger. In the 1960s you learned that trade was independent and capital flows were the financing mechanism -- they were sort of passive."

Druid: Here's ANOTHER way of stating the obvious. This is kind of uncanny, I wonder if McTeer is taking notes from the USA Gold Gold Trail?

Date: Sun Oct 19 1997 17:26
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

"We are all at a giant poker table and the CBs act as the dealer. One day soon the game will end and the players will try to cash in the chips. In that day the dealer will act in our own best interest. They will not pay out gold for the chips. The money system will start over, from scratch.

Also:
It is easy to know that gold could not have been traded for all oil sold. This was never the intent. They only wanted to pull a small amount out of circulation on a regular basis. Using a small amount of oil as a partial trading vehicle gold could be purchased in an all paper deal to hide it's price. As I said before, if they walked up to the plate and started buying outright it would run the price. It is working. They only need 200 million ozs. When the system breaks that gold would be worth all the oil in Arabia and then some."

The Asians are the problem, by buying up bullion worldwide and thru South Africa they created a default situation on all the paper for the oil / gold trade! Now the CBs are selling in the open to calm nerves but it's known that they will never sell enough. It was never their intent to provide the gold, only the backing until new mining technology could increase production. Over time the forward sales, such as ABX's should have worked. But LBMA went nuts with the game and the whole mess has now accelerated.

ge
(10/03/2003; 22:53:35 MDT - Msg ID: 109816)
Dynamic Yield Curve Utility
http://stockcharts.com/charts/YieldCurve.htmlClick on the SP500 and have the yield curve charted for you.
Black Blade
(10/03/2003; 23:42:42 MDT - Msg ID: 109817)
Indian Paper Trades?

This could be interesting as I recall some banks a few years ago attempted to have people put their gold on deposit in the banks for rupees. The whole scheme collapsed due to lack of interest as the people preferred to keep their physical gold in their possession. I wonder if the new futures trading scheme will fair much better. Sure a few with enough resources may the speculative end of this market but over all I don't see it as being a huge success. Recently the "hallmarked" gold program appears to be a bust as well. The majority of physical demand in the country for gold and silver is among those who we would describe as "small fry". So I doubt that they will enter into this scheme either. In fact the drop in today's gold and silver price may even be viewed as a bargain as the Festival Season and Marriage Season is just getting underway. Today's drop in price may be seen as a "gift". The speculation is that one fund sold a large position that lowered the POG enough through several stop loss orders that cascaded into a near $14 drop by the end of the New York trading session. Who knows what will occur on Sunday night as the Asian markets get underway, but another point that can't be totally ignored is that the speculative equities bubble has suddenly reappeared once again as the Lemmings who got creamed in the last bubble bust are desperately attempting to make back their loses.

Meanwhile corporate insiders are bailing out, capex simply is not there, and massive layoffs have been announced. What impact the new BLS methodology had on today's employment data is unclear. Aside from "seasonality" and other "data massage" one point is clear -- manufacturing jobs are still in serious decline while all the gains have been in the service sector. Another important point that has been missed by the Wall Street morons and CNBC carnival barkers is that about 60% of those gains are "temporary" employment jobs. Corporations are not ready to commit to hiring full time workers quite yet. That is not a good sign. Another point is that a net 4,000 jobs per week are "outsourced" abroad to offshore laborers. One of the largest outsourcing of thee offshore jobs are to Asia (India, SE Asia, and China) are high tech jobs (software development, IT work, customer services, etc.). If you have a computer science degree, brokerage services or anything similar then you had better start looking through college catalogs for another degree that will actually be useful and not likely to be "outsourced" abroad. High paying Tech jobs in the US are going the way of the dinosaur. Perhaps look for work in government, teaching, or health care.

The US dollar has not weakened as much as the Yen and Euro lately and should be much weaker. Yet George W. Bush and John Snow are intent on talking up the "strong dollar policy" for some reason. The "strong dollar" is killing the US manufacturing sector (the bedrock of Republican Party support). Why Bush does not want to be reelected by alienating his support by getting them fired from their jobs is somewhat confusing. He should be talking down the dollar to counter the Japanese currency market intervention efforts. The Federal Reserve should be printing dollars like there's no tomorrow and build new printing facilities if necessary to sop up the additional $200 billion the Japanese have allocated for the purpose of propping up the dollar. The Treasury Department should be auctioning off more debt than foreign interests can possibly buy and in turn substantially devaluing the dollar. Maybe even substantially raising tariffs on foreign goods to put the current account balance back on a level playing field - tit for tat. In short forcing a rapid rise in inflation to get the point across that if foreign markets do not want a free market then we can play that game too. Instead Bush would rather have US workers unemployed and deep in debt. He obviously wants to be remembered in history as the next Herbert Hoover. I don't know - maybe I am missing something here and I am a bit tire - long day.

- Black Blade
ge
(10/04/2003; 00:13:34 MDT - Msg ID: 109818)
Gold - Weekly Chart (Closing Prices)
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.web?c=$GOLD,uu[h,a]wallynay[pc65][i]⪯f=G.
Black Blade
(10/04/2003; 00:20:16 MDT - Msg ID: 109819)
Troubling signs of a jobless recovery are everywhere
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/2134287
Snippit:

WE usually don't need government statistics to tell us when times are bad. We have a pretty good sense when family members and neighbors lose their jobs and can't find new ones. You know it's rough when you hear from a steady stream of friends who call to ask about job openings and even the manager of your local grocery store is bemoaning the fact that he can't land that law-enforcement job he just spent months training for because of municipal budget cuts. Even though the economy officially continues to grow based on gross domestic product data, there's no changing the fact that we're in the midst of a jobless recovery -- with the emphasis on the word jobless.

In the entire United States, the number of people without health insurance the entire year rose to 43.6 million people -- an increase of almost 6 percent. It happened as more Americans either lost their jobs, work in jobs that don't provide health insurance or are the victims of state budget cuts. But as health care costs have increased -- 12.3 percent this year and 17.8 percent last year -- employees end up shouldering more of the cost, according to the survey. "The share an employee is paying is greater now than it was in the past on an ever-increasing health care dollar," said Jim Watt, president of Employee Benefit Solutions, an employee benefit consulting firm in Houston. And he attributes the shift to the rough economy. "If the economy was better, we wouldn't have seen this," he said, because companies would not have wanted to upset their employees and make their health care benefits uncompetitive.

According to Hewitt, the human resource consulting firm that conducts an annual salary survey, last year's salary increases were the lowest it has seen in the 27 years it has been keeping track. And, if the Labor Department gets its way, you might be saying goodbye to that overtime you have been depending on. The Labor Department has proposed revamping the rules governing which employees are entitled to overtime, but because of a public outcry it has hit a huge snag in Congress. The Senate voted in September to block the new rules, and the House, which initially voted in July to back the administration's proposal, reversed itself Thursday and sided with the Senate. "To Americans, it's just one more stab in the back," she said.


Black Blade: Ah yes, the "Jobless Recovery". More jobless all the time and rising costs (never mind the bogus low inflation data from the scammers at the BLS � remember government bureaucrats are genetically bred or coerced to be liars and conmen � prostitution goes well beyond and are not confined to sexual activities).

Black Blade
(10/04/2003; 00:22:33 MDT - Msg ID: 109820)
US factory orders decline in August
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1203&e=2&u=/afp/20031002/bs_afp/us_economy_orders&sid=96001027
Snippit:

WASHINGTON (AFP) - New orders for goods from US factories fell 0.8 percent in August, the government said, snapping three months of improvement in the struggling manufacturing sector. The decline, which partially reversed a 2.0-percent jump in July, was a little steeper than Wall Street analysts' forecasts. Orders for durable goods -- big-ticket items such as cars and washing machines -- fell 1.1 percent while orders for non-durable goods dropped 0.5 percent, the Commerce Department said. Demand for big-ticket items was hurt by a 7.7-percent decline in new orders for motor vehicles. But the manufacturing sector was supported by a 37.0-percent jump in defense capital goods orders.

Black Blade: No recovery as I see it, especially when corporate profits come from cost-cutting � no spending on goods for factories and firing workers. Now with consumers spending less. Looks to get might ugly.

Black Blade
(10/04/2003; 00:24:56 MDT - Msg ID: 109821)
Spending our way to disaster
http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/02/markets/consumerbubble/index.htm
The consumer debt bubble in the United States could make the stock bubble seem like nothing.

Snippit:

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The American consumer has become deeply addicted to spending, running up ever higher levels of debt in order to live in a fashion that is beyond his means. And the world has become equally addicted to the consumer continuing to burn through cash. It's a dangerous situation -- potentially a bubble that dwarfs even the U.S. asset bubble that burst in 2000 -- and it will be a challenge for policy-makers to keep it from ending badly. The perseverance of consumer spending over the past several years is credited with keeping the economy afloat, but it didn't come without consequence. In order to keep on living in the manner they became accustomed to during the boom years, Americans went deeply into hock. "If there's a bubble, it's in this four-letter word: Debt," said Merrill Lynch chief North American economist Dave Rosenberg. "The U.S. economy is just awash in it."

Black Blade: Check Mate! It's all debt � personal, consumer, corporate, trade, current account, and budget debt. The "strong dollar" is merely an illusion.

Gandalf the White
(10/04/2003; 00:40:27 MDT - Msg ID: 109822)
THANKS, Sir ge !!!!
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.web?c=$GOLD,uu[h,a]waolynay[pc65][i]⪯f=Gge (10/4/03; 00:13:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 109818)
Gold - Weekly Chart (Closing Prices)
===
I have taken the liberty to change the chart JUST A LITTLE BIT to see the range of each week -- BUT the result is still the SAME -- GOLD is still in an UP TREND !!
<;-)
Belgian
(10/04/2003; 07:11:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109823)
PAPER GOLD.....
The new attemps to "paperize" Indian Gold, by the Anglo American dollar block :
The Indian continent harbors an estimated amount of 10,000 tonnes of Gold, broadly distributed amongst powerless people. What a fantastic Gold-Pool to restart a goldprice controlling, gold-paper-machine (market). Those honest, powerless Asians *must* be brought in line with the desires of the paper gold powers. * Modern * gold-robbery, theft, looting ! This Indian huge gold-pool might (!!!) be a much more fertile ground for nenewed goldprice containment than the ETF upstarter (another gold-pool to be created as to become paperized)!!!

All this is naked evidence that the present and future increasing uptake/accumulation of Physical Gold is *** threathening *** the further "floating" of currencies, mastered by the powers that are (read Shostak-GE).

Yes, more paper gold suppression is needed before Gold's fundamentals risk to undermine the floating currency-system, irreversably !!! Your "property" must be shaken by the pricing masters.

Voila...

I very strongly suspect that the gold-suppression-trend of the past 3 decades has entered a new phase, with more volatility to come. Volatility as a result of the battle between the natural move of renewed gold-accumulation and re-inforcing paper gold price-suppression/management.

The ECB is marking her goldreserves already to market and conservative miniature Belgium just abandoned the 50 yrs old maximum prices on the daily loaf of bread ! Bread-prices have been set FREE !!! Euroland's National airline carriers are merging (KLM_AIR FRANCE_ALITALIA) and will compete on real horizontal terms with others. Basta with interventions. Positive liberalization and more genuine Free Market is a serious trend !

This planet will evolve (is evolving) into a new era where we will ALL have to pay (and receive) THE REAL PRICE for real products and services. Emphasis on "ALL" !!! Interventionistic protection of all kinds isn't workable anymore !!! * Exploitation * has reached its top.

Another example of what is happening in the planet's oil-market : Russian and Anglo American oil-clans are moving and shuffling under the present new Arabian oil-situation.
We make the big mistake of thinking that the different oil-clans (oliarchs) are managing the remaining oil reserves for the planet's people prosperity ! The final result of this ongoing oil-struggle will be proper valuation of the remaining oil reserves in function of its "real" worth vis � vis to what is given in exchange for this oil.

Simplier...hyper-price-inflation to come as a more honest global "RE-VALUATION" of real (indispensable) tangibles and services. Sort of meritocraty that approaches real democraty instead of the fake regimes underwich we prosper or perish.

Those who have the power to keep Gold under their control are servicing those that want to oppress powerless masses NOT desiring to obtain power but simply go for self defense.
If Gold was absolutely UN-IMPORTANT, containment or management would be necessary and the metal could become an ordinarry commodity and be trade semi-free.

Do you want to join and enforce the oppressing paper gold forces, that you point as manipulative...or do you prefer to join all those who accumulate Physical Gold as a natural reflex of self defense !? A very difficult choice, indeed !
This choice will become much easier when the paper gold becomes less attractive and a more dangerous place to operate in, for net paper profits. Increasing volatility in Gold's paper-price is NOT going to be of a nature as to bring you more chances for paper profit !!! Constant net profitability in the paper gold market is exclusevily reserved for those who are chosen to operate and manage this market. Not for you or me !!!

In each lotery, there are always 2 winners : One lotery ticket holder for the show and the organiser (two) of the lotery ! Physical Gold in Possession is NOT a lotery ticket, but,...WEALTH...YOUR WEALTH !
Yeeeyayeeh, loteries are fun.....

Nice weekend to all.
silvester
(10/04/2003; 08:12:46 MDT - Msg ID: 109824)
Random thoughts


We read daily about the strength of the dollar and it's affects on the economy. I wanted to add a few thoughts of my own. Excuse my lack of communicating skills. Bare with me as I struggle to make my point.

By far the majority of posts presented here indicate the dollar must come down in relation to other currencies for America to retain and maintain it's remaining manufacturing base. We have big business lobbying for a weaker dollar, or so we read. I work for a major American based chemical company. I see clearly the fall in value of the dollar as a very sharp double edged sword. The outcome of battle we at the forum are witnessing over the dollar in relation to the Euro and many other currencies and gold is comparable finacially speaking to both world wars I & II combined. I truly believe the outcome will change the way our world behaves no less than if it were being fought militarily. And we have some military action thrown in as well. Let us pray that it gets no more involved than it is now.

I have watched for several years now as problems with commodity/raw materials costs rise and suppress manufacturers ability to profit. I've watched affects of pressure applied from many federal level regulatory agencies such as the EPA(Environmental Pollution Agency), OSHA(Occupational Safety & Health Agency), as well as state agencies, GLO's (General Land Office's), Natural Conservation Agencies and many local level agencies all with concerns about how clean and safe our facilities are operated. Many, many jobs associated with big business in this country are required just to make sure the industry is in conformance with the laws that these agencies enforce. I am not knocking the agencies altogether. Much of this regulation was and still is necessary to keep our water and air clean from the abuses that would and have historically occurred prior to their existence. I'm "straddle the fence" as we say in Texas over this. We all need and want clean air and water. We also need jobs. Does China have these agencies? Do any of the countries whose imports we buy with our billions support clean environment? Or, are their weak currencies and technology not strong enough to handle these concerns? Can America continue to produce under the overhead of our self imposed regulations with a weaker currency which will bring immediate raw material price increases at levels of which we can only imagine?

The strength of our money combined with the abilities of the American worker and workers the world over has provided a strength or boost to the progress of mankind. One that allowed the world to move quickly foward in many areas such as medicine, aeronautics, science, etc. Could go on there but won't. We moved forward so fast thanks to strong and available money usable the world over. This era is playing out now. I am of the opinion that it would be in the worlds best interest for this "adjustment" to play out slowly. We've read that here before and I fully agree. We are teetering on the egde of a massive drop in standard of living for everyone. The slower this plays out the longer the powers that be have to tweak the controls. We should'nt rush this. Yesterdays drop in gold price although disappointing is probably better for us than many realize.

Buy the gold. Buy it here. And be thankful we have a strong currency that makes it possible. Things, they are a changing, quickly.
Druid
(10/04/2003; 09:29:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109825)
silvester (10/4/03; 08:12:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 109824)
"The strength of our money combined with the abilities of the American worker and workers the world over has provided a strength or boost to the progress of mankind. One that allowed the world to move quickly foward in many areas such as medicine, aeronautics, science, etc. Could go on there but won't. We moved forward so fast thanks to strong and available money usable the world over. This era is playing out now. I am of the opinion that it would be in the worlds best interest for this "adjustment" to play out slowly. We've read that here before and I fully agree. We are teetering on the egde of a massive drop in standard of living for everyone. The slower this plays out the longer the powers that be have to tweak the controls. We should'nt rush this. Yesterdays drop in gold price although disappointing is probably better for us than many realize.

Buy the gold. Buy it here. And be thankful we have a strong currency that makes it possible. Things, they are a changing, quickly."

Druid: If you and I enter into an agreement for 10+ years or more(pick a duration) and in that agreement you will muster all your creative genius and commit your most valuable possession "your time" to me and in return I promise you what you "percieve" to be "money" but ommit to inform you that over the duration of this agreement this "money" will not purchase the same amount of goods and services(lifestyle) over the period initially agreed to and completed thereof, your "standard of living" has decreased not increased. If it takes more dollars to buy a SINGLE thing your standard of living is decreasing because you have to be more productive to acquire more dollars to buy your lifestyle. If a single dollar will buy you MORE lifestyle then your standard of living is increasing because you are not allocating more of your precious time in pursuing your lifestyle. Upon completion of the agreement(trade), I win because I obtained something of precious value(your time) in exchange for something of depleting value(dollars). I certainly will not argue with you about the creative genius(division and specialization of labor) in "medicine, aeronautics, science, etc" of my fellow americans ,its just the future collective epiphany that scares the hell out of me. I hope this helps.
silvester
(10/04/2003; 09:51:03 MDT - Msg ID: 109826)
Druid
If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting we have already realized a drop in standard of living? I immediately agree. The past 30 years has been both good and bad. Increases in wages has done some to ease the pain although it is clear that it takes 2 average incomes in this country to maintain the lifestyle we once enjoyed not so long ago on less work/effort. So, we were teetering years ago and may have fallen over years ago. It appears we are now gaining speed faster than law of gravity would allow? How far to the bottom Druid?

It seems so unusual that so many seem so unconcerned. Total faith in a system that has worked all our lives to the benefit of many I guess.
Liberty Head
(10/04/2003; 10:09:08 MDT - Msg ID: 109827)
Social-economic-political life

"I am deeply concerned about the apparent apathy of citizens everywhere, about the absence of outrage at the sometimes petty intrusions of governments into our lives, about the failure to appreciate developing crises in welfare democracies. Most fundamentally, I am disturbed by an apparent public failure to appreciate and to understand the relationships between the constitutional structure that defines the parameters of social-economic-political life and the patterns of outcomes that we observe. In the new century, more than ever, we must attend to the rules of the game."


-- James M. Buchanan, "Notes on Nobelity" [1999]
___________________

The above quote comes very close to expressing my own thoughts. I would delete the word "apparent" and replace the phrase "I am deeply concerned" with "I am quite pi__ed off".
The common sense of free markets is all but extinct while romantic illusions of big government rule the day.
Surely things will eventually turn around, however by that time the hole we are digging will be extremely deep. Those who survive the fighting, fleeing and fraud will be much older and much wiser, if quite tired.
Still, I hope to greet that day with a little gold in my pocket and a smile on my face.

Best Wishes


Waverider
(10/04/2003; 10:11:18 MDT - Msg ID: 109828)
Gandalf, GE
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.web?c=$GOLD,uu[h,a]waolynay[pc65][i]⪯f=GYes - I think it's important (or at the least reassuring) to refer back to the charts after a day like yesterday. Gandalf - the chart you posted which I've included again here is an excellent example of the bullish symmetrical triangle demonstrated by weekly price ranges. I'm going to reiterate because it's classic; Point 1: Feb'03 @$388.00; Point 2: late March'03 @ $323.00; Point 3: late May'03 @ $375.00; Point 4: early July'03 @ $342.00. Use Points 1& 3 to draw the upper converging trendline, and Points 2 & 4 to draw the lower converging trendline. You will notice that the apex of the triangle is around $358.00-$360.00, and that breakout (BO) above the upper trendline occurs at around $365.00. The triangle meets all TA criteria - 4 reversal points, each trendline is touched at least twice, and BO occurs at 3/4 of the horizontal width of the triangle. The symmetrical triangle is usually a continuation pattern which represents a PAUSE in the existing trend - bullish from 2001 as demonstrated in ge's longer range chart. After the pause, the original trend is resumed. The price target is determined by measuring the base (widest part) of the triangle and measuring that distance above the BO point. I calculate a price target of around $430.00 using this technique. The apex ($358.00-$360.00) acts as an important support level after BO occurs. I agree with Sir Gandalf - the support level has not been penetrated and Spot is STILL in an UPTREND and had only a brief correction yesterday. Cheers,

Waverider
Druid
(10/04/2003; 11:21:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109829)
silvester (10/4/03; 09:51:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 109826)
"If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting we have already realized a drop in standard of living? I immediately agree. The past 30 years has been both good and bad. Increases in wages has done some to ease the pain although it is clear that it takes 2 average incomes in this country to maintain the lifestyle we once enjoyed not so long ago on less work/effort. So, we were teetering years ago and may have fallen over years ago. It appears we are now gaining speed faster than law of gravity would allow? How far to the bottom Druid?

It seems so unusual that so many seem so unconcerned. Total faith in a system that has worked all our lives to the benefit of many I guess."

Druid: silvester, I apologize for the quick ramble as I'm in the middle of loading tools and equipment to go work on the hovel. Wow! you have asked the trillion dollar/derivative question. I don't kow how long and because I'm dealing with uncertainty of this magnitude, I've had to change my lifestyle big time in order to try and control or bound what little I can predict. This isn't easy. You are absolutely right, this process is picking up steam big time and could spiral out of control at anytime. I hope Maximus and his merry roundtable can hold on a little longer while my little world still transitions(go Maximus, I'm your biggest chearleader right now). Silvester, good luck and take care. You want some real laughter, watch yours truly and his unemployed rocket scientist friend literally design and then construct our own hovels. We were out setting some gate posts last week and this magical activity had my wife in tears she was laughing so hard.
silvester
(10/04/2003; 11:47:02 MDT - Msg ID: 109830)
Druid

No need to respond now Druid.

If I were near I'd lend a hand. Set more than a few gateposts. My rural upbringing taught me early in that area. Still live rural and hopefully can continue to enjoy the peace, the quietness of country living allows. Good luck on the hovel. No doubt yourself and a rocket scientist are up to the task(grin).

Rural living also instills a sense of preparedness. It is my wish that all people see the signs discussed daily at this site. It's not that complicated. Make the exchange. Trade some dollar for gold. Feel prepared.
ge
(10/04/2003; 12:01:16 MDT - Msg ID: 109831)
@ Gandalf the White, Waverider
Thanks for the comments. From a pure chartist's point of view, it is a bull market.

All the best,
Great Albino Bat
(10/04/2003; 12:32:32 MDT - Msg ID: 109832)
Strange delays in gnomeland....

A friend has shown me documents relating to his attempt to move gold in two CUSTODY ACCOUNTS from the great and famous UBS, Zurich, to another private Swiss bank.

His first attempt was in June 2003, for one custody account, followed by a second attempt for another custody account, on August 5.

After considerable DELAY (end of August) he was informed that "UBS needed more information on the accounts to which the transfer was to be delivered." This is appears to be a ridiculous request, since all that was needed was an interbank phone call. But, let that pass.

The required information was duly given on September 4, for both custody accounts.

ONE MONTH HAS PASSED, AND THE TRANSFER OF PHYSICAL HAS YET TO BE CARRIED OUT!!!

This is very strange. Is UBS having difficulty effecting the transfer because - THEY DO NOT HAVE THE GOLD IN THE CUSTODY ACCOUNT? What else is one to think?

Why don't they buy the required gold, in that case?

Possible answer: my friend's request is only one of a very large number, that cannot be complied with. That would have to be a very large amount...

If the transfer is effected soon - why this utterly preposterous delay?

Stay tuned. And: there is nothing like physical in YOUR HANDS.

The GAB
CoBra(too)
(10/04/2003; 14:31:15 MDT - Msg ID: 109833)
"It's not for Gold alone " -
The title of a book written by Franc Joubin, who has hit it big in mining and I've had the pleasure to meet up with him.

No, it's not for gold alone ... it's about you'r living standards being degraded by the paper pushers. It's about (financial) survival in the long and now in the short run.

... And it's about a systemic collapse, which is averted by all for today ... Tomorrow may be another day!
No cheers ... cb2

DryWasher
(10/04/2003; 14:34:17 MDT - Msg ID: 109834)
Strange delays in gnomeland....

@Great Albino Bat (msg#: 109832)

One other possible reason for the delay in transferring your friends gold from one account to another could be the attempt of governments worldwide to stop the flow of untraceable funds, and gold in particular, which just might be terrorist related.

In other words perhaps the transfer is being held up while your friend is being "checked out" by government agencies of some kind. Somehow that thought doesn't make me feel particularly comfortable.

More reasons to protect your life savings by investing them in PHYSICAL GOLD, held in your possession in a safe place where those who would take it from you can't find it.

As always, Sir GAB, I very much enjoy reading your posts and look forward to reading many more from you, and take care.

DryWasher
Smeagol
(10/04/2003; 14:43:47 MDT - Msg ID: 109835)
Precious in handses!
O, what could be better than one Silver Precious? TWO, that's what (toothy ear-to ear grin)!!

We got Contesst Prizes the other day and they are beauteous to behold! Smeagol thanks Centennial Precious Metals for ssponsoring the Contessts and the Forum, Marie for her kindness, and all at Castle of the Round Table (bow). As we reads the postss day-to-day, our debt of gratitude grows like fiat (which we are saving up to
get us a golden Precious too, and soon, O yes). The Free Knowledge in this Forum is worth more than It, in our opinion.

It looks like Gandalf's Golden Rocket coastss for a while, before the ssecond sstage lights (and maybe It dives and loops, Precious, but always ever higher).

S.
Great Albino Bat
(10/04/2003; 15:22:21 MDT - Msg ID: 109836)
DryWasher: your possible explanation....

Unfortunately, that explanation is not applicable, because both the custody accounts (allocated!) and the parties involved, are all fully identified and of long standing.

My friend is going to find himself a good Swiss lawyer, if this thing is not settled immediately.

Moral: don't trust anyone, especially big international banks (UBS does not qualify as a Swiss bank anymore; its operations are worldwide and subject to US blackmail).

Get your gold here, and keep it under YOUR control.

The GAB
turkey hunter
(10/04/2003; 16:35:44 MDT - Msg ID: 109837)
Going for the gold ??
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/05/international/middleeast/05DUBA.html?ex=1065931200&en=dbea8cbc22796c9d&ei=5062∂ner=GOOGLEU.S. Is Focusing on Dubai as Financial Center for Terrorists
silvercollector
(10/04/2003; 17:16:24 MDT - Msg ID: 109838)
The Dubai article just posted by turkey hunter
snip:

"Describing the United Arab Emirates as a clandestine rendezvous for planners of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States....."

I don't follow the officals in the US government.

In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 Bin Laden was targeted as the primary villain and the 'carpet' bombing of Afganistan ('the hellhole') began. Pakistan was cited from time to time as shady place and of course Saudi Arabia was cause for blame as well.

There were issues with Yemen and Syria and Iran and Iraq. Eventually Iraq became the 'focal point' because they were terrorists of a general sense and hell if we can kill (literally) 3 or 4 birds with one stone......

On any given day a host of Middle Eastern countries can be blamed for a host of terrorist activities. Today, the United Arab Emirates get the nod as the world's worst terrorists.

I guess the wheels and brass of the US officialdom just don't get it. They ALL hate you equally.
DryWasher
(10/04/2003; 18:14:42 MDT - Msg ID: 109839)
Strange delays in gnomeland....


@Great Albino Bat (msg#: 109836)

In your reply you wrote:

"Unfortunately, that explanation is not applicable, because both the custody accounts (allocated!) and the parties involved, are all fully identified and of long standing.

My friend is going to find himself a good Swiss lawyer, if this thing is not settled immediately."

Yes Sir, I understand that the situation is one where the transaction SHOULD NOT be held up to allow government to investigate your friend, but I would not be too quick to assume that despite that fact that it still may not be a possible factor, nor would I rule out your suggested explanation either.

The U. S. Government is applying tremendous pressure to governments and institutions all over the world, as well as here at home, to check out ALL transactions, and I am very much afraid that can and will have detrimental affects on totally legitimate transactions of the type you were describing.

Turkey hunter's post, (msg#: 109837), of a few minutes ago is a case in point of the type of pressure I am speaking of, and I think it is reasonable to assume that the Swiss are feeling that pressure as well as is Dubai.

Perhaps it won't be long before the banks will be asking us all questions like:

"So what are you going to do with this money? Buy GOLD you say. Sorry but that requires us to fill out a form DDxx275, submit it to the government for approval, but it usually takes less than a year for approval if you have a clean background".

As you said "Get your gold here, and keep it under YOUR control." to which I would just add while you still can.

Thanks for listening to my rant, and please let us all know how it turns out with your friend. My guess would be that the bank will finally do the transfer, but will never give a satisfactory answer as to the reason for the holdup. Have a good evening.

DryWasher.
Liberty Head
(10/04/2003; 20:11:49 MDT - Msg ID: 109840)
Factory Closures Devastate U.S. Towns
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&ncid=749&e=1&u=/nm/20031004/bs_nm/bizmanufacturing_dcSnippit:
The exodus of 1,600 Maytag jobs is only the tip of the iceberg in Galesburg. Everyone from sheet metal suppliers to local firms providing toilet paper and light bulbs rely on the plant for business in the town of about 33,700 about 150 miles southwest of Chicago

"I see so many people that I worked with at Boeing, and they're still unemployed just as I am," said Summers. She blames free trade and President Bush for allowing U.S. companies to outsource overseas.

_____________

I read stories like this one and I really feel bad for these folks. The most unfortunate part is when I see comments like the one above. Folks truly do not understand the nature of the problem. Without that understanding, the situation is sure to get worse.

Best wishes
Max Rabbitz
(10/04/2003; 21:38:29 MDT - Msg ID: 109841)
JOBS JOBS JOBS
http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/latest-digest.htmlStephan Roach of Morgan Stanley points out a bill introduced in Congress to impose steep tariffs on Chinese goods. The last option for politicians to create jobs before the next election.

A snippet:

"The most worrisome aspect of this possibility is that there is no effective counterweight anywhere in the political spectrum. That is not the way politics normally work in America. Usually, Congress threatens to go over the cliff and the White House steps in at the last minute and prevents disaster. The Reagan administration's resistance to Japan bashing in the 1980s is a classic example of how these checks and balances work. That's not the case today. Political support for actions against China is broad-based -- by party, ideology, and geography."

Max........then who is going to buy all that treasury debt? And without cheap imports our consumer price index will start to reflect reality, knocking down both bonds and stock valuations, and increasing government obligations in social security and other entitlement programs. There is no way out. Just a matter of time before the players start looking for exits. Then panic. How long did it take the hot money to leave Mexico a few years ago? There was a time when most people didn't look to the government to provide prosperity, but that was a very long time ago. Back when economics was taught in high schools and currency units were tied to something real. So.....I try to get something real while it's still available.....and a few other supplies.
Belgian
(10/05/2003; 01:23:51 MDT - Msg ID: 109842)
@ Max Rabbitz
Tariffs on imports (Chinese & other) = More of the same " protectionism" ! As the dollar-reserve is to be/remain "protected" from Gold !!! What else is the underlying meaning of all sorts of "intervention", than pure protectionism !? To intervene is to protect through regulation, read domination !!!

Political economies : Intervention - Regulation - Domination or simply UNFREE MARKETS. When everything is messed up...one hears those calls for FAIRNESS !?

In the global floating currency circus, winning and profitable producers MUST suddenly upvalue their currency while the dollar reserve has been upvalued simply by/with the power (often manu military) to suppress the ultimate golden standard to wich a currency should be referred to in the first place.

The global economical unbalances are the result of different parties' constant striving for economic supremacy through the tool par excellence of currency-management.

What choices are there left for the dollar ? A strong *leading* dollar or a weak/weakening dollar reserve currency that is going to exclude the dollar-block further from the global economic process, through internal (US) detoriation (hyperinflation and more protectionism) and change in global trade flows ?

Is a compromise between a strong and weak dollar, still manageable-workable at this stage of the dollar reserve status ??? That's what we (the planet-?) are watching and hoping for as to let the economic show go further.

That's why "Instinctively" more Gold will be accumulated by those who "have" something to protect, preserve !!!

MINER49ER : Give us some clues, Sir ! TIA.

Belgian
(10/05/2003; 02:03:36 MDT - Msg ID: 109843)
About jobs.....
Now that we (the West) have been exporting so many jobs to those parts of the globe that have Billions of workers and currencies that weren't worth the paper on wich it was printed...we seem to have landed in an irreversable catch 22 situation. An increasing unilateral flow of goods and services in exchange for more confetti stashes and less goods and services in return. Huge (billions) and increasing trade deficits (= imbalance)!

THIS IS NOT NEW ! We have been covering this up with the creation of temporary and "subsidized" jobs (DEBT DRIVEN)that produce very little in exchange for what is done eastwards.

Those lost jobs will NEVER come back and we have installed the backbones (skeletons) of an industrial economy, outside our Western territories. East and Far East will go on developping, internally as soon as their "export" trade with the West is declining. They will create more real jobs (millions) whilst we have to restart our own internal productive economies.

Our main problem is that we don't want - cannot, turn our prosperity-clocks, backwards !!! We can't cover up our strategic mistakes with more of the same confetti expansion and artificial over-valuations of printed matter.

Billions of non Westerners are saturating us economically, whilst they, themselves, still have a long way to go to reach our levels of broad prosperity for all.

These sudden, fast rising, unemployment figures appearing after such a *presumed* period of (false) expansion, are a scary sign on the wall ! That's why these calls for "structural changes" will have to be repeated for some time to come. Alas, we (most of us) will NOT go to work harder for less !! Serious (old and faster growing) fundamental problem imo.

Once ALL currencies are going to reflect people's real worth...it will be much easiere to implement the known and needed structural changes. That would be "fair", wouldn't it ?
Caradoc
(10/05/2003; 02:54:58 MDT - Msg ID: 109844)
RE: Strange Delays in Gnomeland
The delay was only twenty minutes, but I learned that in "the land of the free" you can't show up with cash and do a wire transfer to another country. They have to be able to "vouch where the money came from." The twenty-minute solution was to do the paperwork to open a checking account I'll probably never use again (don't need a checking account at the place where I pay my mortgage), deposit the cash into the new account, and THEN wire the funds minus the amount necessary to avoid a monthly charge on the new checking account.

So, twenty minutes of my life used up by doing something pointless. If simply depositing cash in a checking account is sufficient "laundering" to make money respectable, we're getting a lot more government awareness than we are "security."

I think it was Ben Franklin who said that those willing to give up freedom in exchange for security will end up with neither.

Caradoc
ge
(10/05/2003; 03:22:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109845)
Orlandini on a possible bear trap
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/orlandini/orlandini100603.html.
silvercollector
(10/05/2003; 04:04:52 MDT - Msg ID: 109846)
Manipulation
What really bothers me about Friday is the timing of the drop, about 12:15/12:20pm.

Waverider and Gandalf were the first to spot the crooks in action. I've read the usual over the last 24 hrs. and alot of folks are discussing the jobs report, the jobs report. If I'm not mistaken it came out at 8:30am, no? Checking spot, there was a 3 dollar POG (spot) beginning at 8:25 (why at 8:25? 5 minute leak?) but it had nearly recovered by 10:10am.

Referring to the share prices in the 10:15-10:30 window many (most) were in fact up probably reflecting the fact that physical had shaken off the (rebounding) 'jobs' report.
However in perfect unison with physical the shares took a beating immediately after high noon. What is interesting is that a couple shares started their freefall at 11:50/11:55 while most started at noon or shortly afterwards but in any event all (most) started in advance of spot.

It's as if traders KNEW something was afoot even if it was only in advance of common knowledge by 10 minutes or so.

I read Sinclair latest and he blames the job report (I just don't get the near 4 hour time lag) and reports that some number was messed up badly and we will get a huge reversal almost immediately.

I haven't checked the dollar index chart today but I believe the sharp upticking began at noon; I will have to check again because the timing is most interesting. If the serious updraft began pre-noon the gold shares drift would be explained but one might wonder why spot waited until 12:20. If the updraft co-incides with gold at 12:20 one might wonder how the traders (SM) knew in advance at 11:50-12:00)

Anyways..........I often have this premonition/dream that someone (a 'heavy' hitter) in the likes of Greenspan etc. has a sudden, one on one interview with a news anchor explaining/announcing the crooked rot in the political/financial system(s). Hopefully at 9:31 am on a Monday (hee hee...markets would be closed at 9:32)

And in any event......Friday's action was rotten, rotten to the core. That was not anything more than pure 'management'. Thanks to Gandalf and Waverider for pointing it out. Boils my blood, what does it do for you?

Off to see the dollar index to confirm the crooks.

Caradoc
(10/05/2003; 04:22:27 MDT - Msg ID: 109847)
GAO's Comp Gen on US debt
http://www.respondanet.com/english/publications/Gaowalker.pdfVery little press coverage of this speech, especially considering that it was delivered to the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. by David Walker, the nation's Comptroller General.

Snippet #1:
...while we are starting off in a financial hole we don't really have a very
good picture of how deep it is. Specifically, there are a number of very significant
items that are not currently included as liabilities in the federal government's
financial statements; for example, several trillion dollars in non-marketable
government securities in so-called "Trust Funds." In the case of the Social Security
and Medicare Trust Funds, the federal government took in taxpayer money, spent it
on other items and replaced it with an IOU. Given this fact, why aren't the amounts
attributed to such activities shown as a "liability" of the U.S. Government? At the
present time, they are not! Does this make sense, especially when the government
continues to tell Social Security and Medicare beneficiaries that they can count on
the bonds in these "Trust Funds"? Is the federal government trying to have its cake
and eat it too?
The current U.S government liability figures also do not adequately consider veterans�
health care benefit costs provided through the Department of Veteran's Affairs nor do
they include the difference between future promised and funded benefits in
connection with the Social Security and Medicare programs. These additional
amounts total tens of trillions of dollars in discounted present value terms. Stated
differently, they are likely to exceed $100,000 in additional burden for every man,
woman and child in America today, and these amounts are growing every day.

Snippet #2:
With regard to existing policies and programs, it is time to restructure existing
entitlement programs to make them secure, sustainable and aligned with 21st
Century economic, demographic and other realities.

So, in addition to Congressman Ron Paul and Anthony Principi -- secretary of Veterans Affairs -- the federal government has a third person who will stand up on his hind legs and speak the truth. The Comp Gen's prescriptions amount to a bitter pill of strong medicine. Restructuring social security, for example, to acknowledge 21st century demographic realities would mean planning for a greater percentage of recipients living into their 80s and 90s (spread that money thinner!) and taking into account that most 62 and 65 year olds are still potentially productive.

Such strong medicine would allow the US to quit "digging the hole deeper" and even begin to get out of it. The odds of that happening are exactly the same as the odds of any political party nominating Ron Paul or Anthony Principi or David Walker for President. Instead, politicians will yammer about a "lock box" (containing an I.O.U.!!) and members of the AARP will receive their full social security checks right up to the day the whole house of cards collapses.

Might be a good idea to arrange for your own security. Thanks to the "boyz" of Comex, gold is temporarily available at sale prices. Just call our hosts at 1(800)869-5115. I suspect they'll be able to give you a better price on Monday than they will on Friday.

Caradoc

PS: With Gulf War vets (Army and Air Force) suffering from ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) at 2 to 2.7 times the expected rate, some already dead and others crawling around on their hands and knees because they couldn't afford wheelchairs, policy wonks at the VA presented their plan for arguing against any link between the disease and Gulf War service. Principi threw them out of his office and did the right thing. Kind of nice to know that a few of my tax dollars are being spent honorably even though cars run just fine on alcohol or natural gas (both producible from agricultural products) and there was no need to send troops into harm's way to secure "the free flow of oil at market prices [denominated in US dollars]."
ge
(10/05/2003; 05:12:24 MDT - Msg ID: 109848)
Sir Silvercollector
Friday's price action smells manipulation, yes. Who triggered it? Orlandini suggests that, MAYBE, bull interest did it to set up a bear trap and pass the 380-400 resistance zone with minimum expenditure. Presently, we do not know the answer. Monday will show it. In fact, it is not very important while sitting on physical gold. Just gossiping while sipping my tea�. All the best.
Tate
(10/05/2003; 07:53:02 MDT - Msg ID: 109849)
Simpla quastion ???
If everything is being manipulated and "managed" in United States of America today, what is left pure?
Chris Powell
(10/05/2003; 07:56:01 MDT - Msg ID: 109850)
Embry endorses GATA in interview on 'Financial Sense Newshour'
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1707Sprott Asset Management President John Embry
and Central Fund of Canada CEO Scott Spicer
are interviewed on Jim Puplava's "Financial Sense
Newshour," wherein Embry specifically endorses
GATA's work.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
cockerel1
(10/05/2003; 09:52:36 MDT - Msg ID: 109851)
Tate - msg#: 109849
Look in the mirror!

You are either part of the solution to "clean up the mess",
or you are part of the problem.

For the most part, the "Movers and Shakers" have manipulated the whole western world into a "false Eden".

By a process of elimination, you can "weed out" the small group type who have brought us to this "stage of the game".

Ask yourself this question and you begin the process.

What "types" of people were responsible for introducing "Fiat" and why?

The "why" is very simple. Because the alternative, gold and silver is real and not subject to manipulation without Fiat.

Have fun with answering the question of who the "real" culprits are.
Liberty Head
(10/05/2003; 10:38:18 MDT - Msg ID: 109852)
RE: Caradoc msg# 109847

Caradoc, Thanks for posting the GAO report. It is refreshing to hear a gov't insider speak the truth and stand up for transparency and accountability.

Nice as it is to hear the words, only actions and deeds will score points with me. You summed it up quite well by equating the odds of positive change happening to the odds of positive election results for the likes of Rep. Ron Paul.
Before that can happen, millions of voters will need some lessons in economics and common sense. Folks who tend to think and vote with their hearts are easy prey for the minipulators. Once these same folks realize they have been used and are feeling the pain, their fury and rage will help drive the changes needed.
I think the recall of California Gov. Dufus is only the begining of what promisses to be a huge shift in the U.S. political landscape.
Once again, California is at the forefront of a gold rush.

Best Wishes


CoBra(too)
(10/05/2003; 10:54:19 MDT - Msg ID: 109853)
Doubt the Rout!
I'm not quite underwriting the notion - as Belgian expressed yesterday - that Friday's POG rout was solely due to the paper gold markets of COMEX or LBMA.

After all, these (paper) futures markets are setting the price for the real McCoy. Meaning that astute accumulators of bullion are offered another windfall in their long term strategies.

Meanwhile, I've become so accustumed to watch these desperados running the stops from time to opportune times, that I personally feel ever more emboldened to take the gift offered by these nincompoops every once in a while.

Personally, I'd consider this window of opportunity as a shallow one and act accordingly. - And if you'd need another sign of the desperation of the paper pushers, just consider the employement BLS figures, being revisioned after market close - only!

Stray the course ... cb2






Knallgold
(10/05/2003; 11:16:00 MDT - Msg ID: 109854)
Saudi Arabia/Friday
-Read today on Teletext that Schr�der is going to visit Saudi Arabia with about 13 topmanagers with him.

-On the Friday action,I go out on a limb: the paper Gold market has started to go up in smoke!Something is in the works by the physical faction,Silver held 5 for a long time,the euro firmly on its feet,POG above 360 for a long time=damage done,"unofficial" talk in Dubai on Goldplans for next year:TPTB are ready for the bumpy transition paper-->physical Gold,the ETF by the WGC as the "shadowinstrument" (FOA) of the new leading euro Goldparadigma is ready to trade and participate in a way!

Something big is about to happen soon!FOA might be so busy not even having time for gardening,nevermind posting a quick note!?
Waverider
(10/05/2003; 11:45:11 MDT - Msg ID: 109855)
Israel strikes at Palestinian training camp on Syrian soil
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/346835.html"The UN Security Council has scheduled an unoffocial closed-door meeting for Sunday evening to discuss an Israeli airstrike earlier in the day on targets deep inside Syria. Israeli warplanes attacked a training camp used by a number
of anti-Israeli and Islamic militant groups on the Syria-Lebanon border on Sunday, in retaliation for a suicide bombing that killed 19 people in Israel.

It was the first time in decades that Israel has carried out strikes inside Syria. The United States called for restraint on all sides on Sunday. "We urge all sides to exercise restraint and to keep in mind the consequences
of their actions," the State Department said in a statement.

Meanwhile, a senior aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said that Israel could launch new attacks on Syria if Damascus continues to shelter terrorist organizations. Syria said on Sunday the Israeli airstrike had targeted a civilian site near Damascus in a "grave escalation" of tensions in the Middle East. Syrian commentators expressed surprise at the Israeli strike, since Damascus has repeatedly claimed that it does not have any Islamic Jihad
training bases on it soil. Syrian sources say that Israel is �playing with fire,; and that the situation could rapidly deteriorate into regional conflict. There has been no official Syrian reaction to the attack. "We do not have any training camps or bases in Syria or any other country," he said. "All our bases are inside the Palestinian occupied
territories."

Waverider: Well, they just upped the ante in the ME. Imagine the US recommending that the players "keep in mind the consequences of their actions"! The only path I see for this is a serious regional escalation of the conflict. This next week will definitely prove "interesting"!

BTW Silvercollector - re: Friday's market action - no, I don't like the blatant manipulation, but it does not deter me from my long term goals.
Druid
(10/05/2003; 12:15:30 MDT - Msg ID: 109856)
Druid's World
Druid: I was smoking my imaginary funny pipe this morning and trying to reach out into the spirit world when I entertained this thought: take a trillion dollars and start your bidding at $5000 an ounce(holding everything else constant since we live in a static world); how many ounces of the killer yellow metal can you acquire? Now, fast forward and cross over into the real dynamic world where change is a constant and introduce more bidders and more trillions of dollars, yen,...etc. and then try to imagine what the textbook market clearing price would, should or could be. My guess is its just a little north of $400 an ounce. Well, I'm off to find a hot tub so I can boil my pain away.
Belgian
(10/05/2003; 13:50:14 MDT - Msg ID: 109857)
@COBRA-too
You : ...astute accumulators of bullion are offered another windfall in their long term strategies.
Have been thinking on this...

The action on LBMA+COMEX+TOCOM is "only" 1/5 (20%) of the total daily - global action on public Gold (paper + Physical) !!!
The remaining 4/5 of the Gold action is NOT for statistical purposes !!! In other words, there is an official market for Gold with visible pricing and there is a rather unvisible market with, most probably, a more different price pattern that is not necessarely always tracking the official price. Maybe we should call this the Gold discount market only for the Giant insiders that may participate.


The official POG that we see is paper-driven and the stealth market is rather Physical-driven. The paper-POG is serving many other purposes than the Physical-POG. Unfortunately we have no statistics (official + unofficial) on Physical Gold moves and are not able to speculate with enough evidence on the relationship between these two different Gold markets.

2,500 TONNES of yearly new mined Gold mean that theoretically 10 tonnes a day are a normal shipment for the gold trade. Add the 500 tonnes of scrap and the 400 tonnes of CB gold and the daily total becomes around 15 tonnes a day that moves around. I've been told that much more than 15 tonnes a day of Physical Gold is moving and changing hands.

May we than conclude that only a fraction of total daily Physical Gold trade is done at the indicated official paper price !? Most probably, this is happening.

Higher (increasing) volatility in paper POG indicates to me that more Physical unvisible Gold is on the move, not necessary on the paper POG prices but at a wider divergence (up or down) from the official price, the more this one becomes volatile.

And therefor, your remark might be very correct. The astute Gold accumulators do know the dollar decline target and want to have excess (declining) dollars exchanged for Physical in Possession, because the dollar decline (devaluation) will be irreversable and gain momentum.

Paper POG must be managed as to make time for more Physical to become "available" for further accumulation !

Many people may be specialist in a specific part of the Gold markets, but very, very few have a *total* overvieuw of this oliarchic market. That is the extreme privilege of a handfull of dynasties.

With the ECB's marking to market new gold reserve principle...I don't expect these famous dynasties to hold their power on the Unfree Gold trade for much longer !?
What do you reckon ?


CoBra(too)
(10/05/2003; 15:43:56 MDT - Msg ID: 109858)
Paper Gold Trading -
@Belgian - Sir, I seem to recall that the LBMA traded about twice the gold ever mined per year - admittedly in its best years. This sent kind'a phony message to the world at large an to advocates of physical gold holders in particular.

Even as we may realize, that the OTC markets, trading in gold derivatives may be even larger in quantity, the fact remains that the "official" (comes close to a more denigrating word by omitting a few letters...) futures exchanges are price setting mechanism's for the underlying
asset.

As I'm aware of the mechanics of bullion trading, which is still primarily conducted under Swiss terms and regulations - still the largest market for bullion settlements - it is usually effected at a discount a/o premium to the LBMA spot fixes.

So it still is a case of wag the dog and not a case of the real value establishing its rightful place - Value!

Well, as long as the system is phony enough to allow even minnows like me to exchange some crummy fiat paper for the reality of ancient value(s)- can I complain?

Regards - cb2

Gondolin
(10/05/2003; 16:26:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109859)
Gold Standard 1087986
Gold Standard,

Je comprende!!Yes I get confused and bamboozled too when I try and follow some of the deeper arts of economics , though I understand the drift of what is illustrated.

It matters not because the fundamentals are constant.

If you have the know-how you can trade and make a few fast bucks on the fibionnachi or VIX indicators or whatever, but there is really only one constant that should be looked at.

I have neither the ability nor the funds to make the moves that some of our more learned and more educated colleagues can, other than investing what available funds I do have in PMs.

We only need to know one thing. We are in the early stages of a Gold Bull Market.

As Another and FOA have enlightened us all, the biggest footsteps are the ones we need to follow.

Respectfully.

spotlight
(10/05/2003; 16:29:16 MDT - Msg ID: 109860)
Trillions of $ divirsifying into $millions?
Belgian
Ihave a problem understanding how gold cannot be soaring, with the trillions of dollars sloshing around the world, together with reports of the Asians, Indian, China, Russians ect.diversifying out of the dollar into gold. It is reported that the currency and bond markets trade in the trillions. The gold market, you estimate, trades 15 tons a day. That's less than $200 million per day. Change from $1 billion would be $800 million! It would take China alone, purchasing all gold offered (15 tons per day) years before their reserves could be converted to gold. In other words, it seems that gold is not really being bought, by all of the above, in any meaningful dollar amount in comparison to their reserves. Of course, one could say, that is a very bullish aspect for gold, once the momentum into gold accellerates. In the mean time, absent any accompanying large spike in the gold price, it's hard to get excited when reports come in stating how, for instance, Some major central bank is diverifying dollar reserves into gold.
One other question: Is there any way to estimate how much actual physical gold hit the market on friday?
Mr Gresham
(10/05/2003; 17:47:07 MDT - Msg ID: 109861)
Sustainability?
http://www.dieoff.com/With the new questioning this week on oil reserve levels (was it BB who posted it? or has he commented yet on it -- I can't recall) the topic and link above take on new urgency.

The food resources dependent on petroleum-based fertilizers (and packaging, and transportation, etc etc) will be cut sharply, putting a premium on having one's own land and seeds and water supply for growing a ration to survive on. Perhaps a small farming business will become the highest-margin profit center possible in such a constrained future?

What currency system we have, and whether Social Security is paying the promised checks, and whether the debt load is payable by government and consumers alike, may be problems left in the dust by the very quick collapse of the petroleum-fueled First World economy.
Aristotle
(10/05/2003; 18:03:27 MDT - Msg ID: 109862)
For Spotlight -- the crux of it
You: "I have a problem understanding how gold cannot be soaring, with the trillions of dollars sloshing around the world ... it seems that gold is not really being bought..."

Ari says:

You nailed it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOLD is not really being bought. What IS being bought -- hook, line, and sinker -- is the notion that paper Gold is functionally equivalent to the real thing. The amount of paper Gold flooding the market for buyers' to swallow and choke on can come from the source just as easily and rapidly as the blowing piles of dollars do, thus keeping the "public price" for Gold-realm investments in stasis.

As enough people shun the paper Gold the illusion will fade, revealing physical Gold's legitimate market value somewhere north of the moon.

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Cometose
(10/05/2003; 18:09:20 MDT - Msg ID: 109863)
DOW/GOLD
Tim Wood who is a student of DOW theory...had some interesting things to say in his latest newsletter... this weekend about the DOw and sister indexes and GOLD...

He said that there was weakness in the present stock market rally in volume and in the way the issues were being traded. He referred to this as a dull market.... because of the action that resembles distribution happening and he said that this exact pattern " three tops and and a dome has appeared before and is well known to some....In 1920 and 21 this pattern appeared and 1929 and 1987....
HE said that there are two numbers to now watch for on the DOW .....In order to clear the bear pattern that is being assessed to this market the DOw needs to clear 9686 on and intraday basis or 9662 as a close........On the othere end of the spectrum and support of the bear pattern he referred to , a close below 9275 would be confirmation of the resumption of the downward trend and it may look like a waterfall after it starts...

HE said that GOLD is confirmed its bull position by its move intraday last week well above 390 but needs to clear 390 again soon........

It will be interesting to see these events unfold...
Topaz
(10/05/2003; 18:17:53 MDT - Msg ID: 109864)
Bond action and reactive move of PoG
http://www.futuresource.com/charts/multicharts.asp?symbols=TYXY%2CFVXY%2CDX1%21%2CGC1%21.=D&varminutes=&bartype=line&bardensity=LOW&r=&go.x=12&go.y=10Interesting action seen Friday as sentiment shifted from future expectations to a more immediate resolve...look at those Bond Yields!! Golds over-reaction and subsequent slight retracement this morn does not bode well for paperGold advocates imo.
Chris Powell
(10/05/2003; 18:18:51 MDT - Msg ID: 109865)
Another bombshell by James Turk via GATA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1708How the U.S. government ran the stops on the Comex
gold market on Friday, and new discrepancies in
Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department gold
accounts provide evidence of the manipulation.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Druid
(10/05/2003; 18:47:39 MDT - Msg ID: 109866)
Tipping Point?
http://www.prudentbear.com/creditbubblebulletin.aspSnippit

The truly frightening aspect of these circumstances is that both the GSEs and central banks have succumbed to Bubble dynamics. Individually and in concert, it is Inflate or Die. With the parlous mortgage finance Bubble, an incredibly leveraged Credit system, and a hopelessly distorted Bubble economy requiring massive and unrelenting Credit inflation/currency debasement, it is a safe assumption that dollar vulnerability is here to stay. Moreover, the out-performance of non-dollar assets (real investment and economies, financial markets and assets, and basic commodities) will augment dollar liquidation. And just as King Dollar foreign inflows were self-reinforcing during the late-nineties, there is evidence that non-dollar flows (investment and speculative) are now increasingly fueling self-reinforcing expansions overseas. This is especially the case throughout Asia (including India), Russia, Eastern Europe, Australia and elsewhere. This is the essence of my now weekly "Global Reflation Watch" and keen focus on foreign economies and markets. Global reflation is a dollar problem and central bank problem.

I do see relative strong performance sufficient to sustain major non-dollar flows. Foreign central banks, then, will continue to have no attractive alternative other than further dollar "Buyers of Last Resort" accumulation. We "owe (them) a lot of money, the banks� got a problem;" a huge and ballooning problem. In reality, foreign central banks can't turn off the Credit/liquidity spigot any more than the GSEs can turn it off. It's out of control domestically and internationally. The speculative marketplace fully appreciates this dangerous dynamic, as the perception of endless global liquidity solidifies.

Mr. McTeer provided an additional candid and pertinent comment Wednesday night:

"One of the great things about moving to Texas after the banking crisis was that Texans are willing to talk about their bank failures, their own failures, and there's no embarrassment about it whatsoever. It's a very entrepreneurial country and we're in the center of the entrepreneurial part of the country. And we'll survive whatever they throw at us. I don't know what the next external shock might be. It might just be that the current account deficit finally reaches a Tipping Point."

Current account deficit reaching a Tipping Point? Are such thoughts even allowed at the Federal Reserve? Well, there is absolutely no doubt we are heading toward a major dollar crisis. The issue is only when. There is no doubt in my mind that the GSE Bubble will burst, and there are certainly enough issues unfolding to keep our analytical interest. These institutions and the marketplace are seemingly doing everything possible to ensure that this inevitable financial dislocation will be historic. I also have no doubt that the foreign central bank dollar Bubble will come to a most unpleasant end. That the interplay of these two ultra-powerful financing mechanisms has evolved to foster unprecedented Credit and speculative excess throughout the world is a deeply despairing worst-case-scenario unfolding right before our eyes.

To wrap this up, it appears we have entered what will be a wildly unstable environment, as we meander towards some type of financial "resolution." Yet there is today an atypically fine line between financial dislocation (likely related to the dollar) and abundant global liquidity unlike anything seen in our lifetimes. There is a fine line between a "Tipping Point" break in dollar confidence and desperate foreign central bank dollar purchases (unprecedented global liquidity injections). There is similarly a thin line between endless liquidity supporting our leveraged Credit system and consequences of incessant liquidity excess at some point terrorizing it. And it does today appear reasonable to presuppose that things may look absolutely wonderful to most right up until the proverbial "wheels come flying off." Most financial crises develop as liquidity disappears over a period of time. But the nature of the runaway GSE/central bank financial Bubbles may dictate that enormous over-liquidity works its seductive magic until it abruptly doesn't work anymore: a systemic crisis of confidence.

In the meantime, there is this massive speculative community placing leveraged bets on stocks, bonds, currencies, commodities, Credit, spreads, and God knows what else. Additionally, there will be an unfolding Battle Royal as bets are placed as to how this all plays out, only ensuring greater chaos in the markets. An incredibly unstable environment has been nurtured, and we are today forced to be on guard for extreme price movements across the spectrum of now highly interrelated markets. This week had the "feel" of a commencement of some type of systemic dislocation, with an initial convulsion to the upside, at least for stocks. I wonder what Larry Kudlow would think of this week's Bulletin?

Druid: Using more credit to fix a credit problem. I don't think it will work but its worth a shot.
Druid
(10/05/2003; 18:59:39 MDT - Msg ID: 109867)
Aristotle (10/5/03; 18:03:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 109862)
"As enough people shun the paper Gold the illusion will fade, revealing physical Gold's legitimate market value somewhere north of the moon."


Druid: Yes! Sir Aristotle, it will just start testing its warp drive capability once it passes the moon. Every second of every minute of every hour....these ghouls continue to spring load this baby.
Druid
(10/05/2003; 20:06:21 MDT - Msg ID: 109869)
Global Systemic Pollution!
http://www.prudentbear.com/archive_comm_article.asp?category=Guest+Commentary&content_idx=26994Snippit

There is a document produced by the Federal Reserve (unfortunately lagged a couple of months) called the Z1. Little known, it should be mandatory, required reading. Obviously, for those having interest, it can be readily accessed at the Fed website. For interpretation, there are many astute analysts; we particularly value, Doug Noland at Prudent Bear and our friend Gillespie at Gillespie Research Associates. Nevertheless, we also drag our own inept attempts at analysis direct. The most recent Z1 we find to be shocking! The number that leaps out is the $700 billion INCREASE in the net number that the "rest of the world" has from the U.S. in excess of the amount the U.S. has from the "rest of the world". The total now exceeds $4 TRILLION! From the end of WWII to the early 1980's, the U.S. was first a massive and then progressively smaller net creditor or OWNER of MORE than THEY ("the rest of the world") OWNED. At yearend 2002, THEY OWNED $3.3 trillion more than the U.S. OWNED and at 6/30 our net debtor position increased to $4.0 trillion. 20%+ IN SIX MONTHS!

What does all this have to do with the title?
It is the writer's belief that Mr. Magoo, the current Fed Chairman, still denying the dotcom/telecom bubble he foistered on the suckers, and oblivious of the recently diminishing if not punctured housing bubble his frantic response to the near recession of 2001 created, has engineered quite a bit of collateral damage in economies around the globe.

He and the parallel credit creation mechanism known as the GSE's have proliferated so much CREDIT thereby as to cause SYSTEMIC CREDIT POLLUTION globally. Not understanding the equity refrain of 10% "over the long haul," the writer prefers investments in debt. Readers of past missives know that, in recent years, a qualifier of foreign denominated has been added as it has increasingly become apparent that the U.S., although probably AAA rated forever, is an increasingly poor exchange risk. What we are getting at now, however, is that the SPLURGE in credit globally occasioned by what we call THE SPILLOVER EFFECT from the Fed/GSE blastoff in credit creation coupled with an emasculation of interest rates has ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY POLLUTED GLOBAL CREDIT. THE PRICE OF CREDIT (THE SPREAD) SHOULD BE DETERMINED BY THE INHERENT RISK IN THAT CREDIT, BUT THE PRICE OF CREDIT IS BEING TOTALLY WARPED BY THE AVAILABILITY OF COMPLETE LIQUIDITY ON A GLOBAL BASIS OCCASIONED BY THE U.S. LIQUIDITY CREATION MACHINES AND THE FED DRIVEN COLLAPSE IN SHORT TERM RATES!

A COROLLARY OF THE ABOVE IS THAT THE INFAMOUS "CARRY TRADE" PLAY (Borrow low and short and lend higher and long) IS NOW POSSIBLE IN MOST GLOBAL MONEY MARKETS.


Druid: Z1? Anyone, what's after Trillion? TIA
Liberty Head
(10/05/2003; 21:27:57 MDT - Msg ID: 109870)
Word of the Week

Escalation - rise(n.), acceleration, intensification, boom

Keep you hands and arms inside the vehicle. This weeks ride will be wild.

Best Wishes



Tate
(10/05/2003; 21:34:31 MDT - Msg ID: 109871)
Movers and Shakers
Thanks for responding cockerel.

Hollywood's film "Platoon" showing American boys dying in Vietnam ends with following words something like: We where not fighting outside enemy, our enemy was within us.
I can add: human greed progresses with prosperity. Every civilization that introduced fiat currency was eventually doomed in self-destruction.
Current fiat system has no nationality or borders. It is worldwide.
"For the most part, the "Movers and Shakers" have manipulated the whole western world into a "false Eden"."
History is no secret any more, "Movers and Shakers" are identified. Money changers will not simply give up fiat system. It will take something very radical like: total economic collapse or involvement and eventual defeat in a major war or both.
Problem is western world became addicted to fiat and it will take much to sober up.
Just watch all political mud thrown at Arnold's governor campaign in California.


Robert
(10/05/2003; 21:59:22 MDT - Msg ID: 109872)
Mr Gresham: Sustainability and survival in view of depleting fossil fuels
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/message/42586You write "Perhaps a small farming business will become the highest-margin profit center possible in such a constrained future?" Well, yes if you load up on ammunition and a supply of guns and other weapons of mass destuction in order to defend your farming business against masses of hungry fellow citizens. I recommend that you check out the above link. According to this article, our present food production requires 10 calories of fossil fuels for each calorie of food produced. In other words, we are basically eating oil. Once fossil fuels are gone, humanity can not survive on traditional agriculture unless the population size is reduced brutally. Within the next 50 years, at least one out of two people on earth must disappear in order for the remaining half to have any chance of survival. And that regardless whether you have gold or not. So much for gold being wealth.
Great Albino Bat
(10/05/2003; 22:34:15 MDT - Msg ID: 109873)
Robert - I beg to differ

In the grimest of scenarios - and yours is pretty hard to beat - it's better to have gold than not to have it. That goes for silver as well. When food becomes short, things will be as they have been for as long as records have been kept: those with gold or silver, are first in line for food.

NO, you can't eat gold or silver; but, be assured that as long as you have some, you won't go hungry.

The GAB
otish mountain
(10/05/2003; 22:37:26 MDT - Msg ID: 109874)
Mr. Gresham-Sustainability
Isn't what we are witnessing now the beginnings of the back side of the bell curve?

Overlay Hubbert's Peak with a model of Kondratieff's cycle.

Some say we are entering a Kondratieff winter.

I say we are entering the Kondratieff Ice Age.
Goldbug 1
(10/05/2003; 22:42:23 MDT - Msg ID: 109875)
Tate (109849) Transparency.
Tate asks "If everything in the USA is being manipulated and managed, what is left pure?"
Surely the USAGOLD Forum is! However in order to convince everyone of this will Sir MK please list the USAGOLD Staff and Associates Forum posting names. Then any skeptics can be completly convinced that there is no monkey business going on here. Only excellent coin and gold bullion trading business.
otish mountain
(10/05/2003; 22:54:11 MDT - Msg ID: 109876)
Mr. Gresham - Oil
This may have been the passage that got your attention it sure got mine!
Blake Blade Sept 30th #109634

That said, it has also been revealed that Saudi does not have the 13 million bbl/day production capacity as had been expected. We now find out that they now can only hit 9.2 million bbl/day and that Oman (even with the expertise of BP) are in serious sharp decline in production and they are pulling out all the stops. Now we learn that Iraqi reserves may have been grossly overblown as well, much less than the reported 125 billion bbl of oil. Not only is Iraqi oil infrastructure in disarray and terrorism a growing problem along with attacks on oil pipelines, but the Kirkuk Field oil has to be sent to Ceyhan, Turkey settling tanks due to contaminated oil before shipment. The OPEC quota production cuts may have much to do with declining production and the inability to ramp up production. China has also been on the prowl for oil imports lately along with the Japanese cutting deals with Iran for oil. Keep your eyes on this growing problem in coming months. Meanwhile watch for a fight on Capital Hill over the proposed "Energy Plan" as Republicans push to find a way to delay the inevitable and Democrats fight to delay any possible solutions for political gain in an election year. Should get "interesting".

Otish: Sir Black Blade, if you have anymore info on this matter please post.

Thank You

Aristotle
(10/05/2003; 23:03:16 MDT - Msg ID: 109877)
Robert, if you think *think* THINK about it...
You'll have to change your tune.

WEALTH is that which you possess above-and-beyond your immediate needs.

If you THINK about it, gold is the best wealth there is.

If you THINK about it, piles of food -- above and beyond your immediate needs -- might rot or otherwise go uneaten (maybe you die tomorrow from lack of insulin).

So what boat are we in? If you insist on insisting that Gold is not wealth, then I'll insist that you apply your same logic to deduce that NOTHING is wealth. If necessary, I can walk you through this proof, using your logic, item by item.

If you THINK about it, Gold IS wealth; and furthermore, it is wealth PAR EXCELLENCE.

Read this post a thousand times if necessary, and meditate on it, and again and again until enlightenment takes you by storm. (You can thank me then. )

Gold. Get you some meaningful WEALTH. --- Aristotle
Goldbug 1
(10/05/2003; 23:30:28 MDT - Msg ID: 109878)
Gold is certainly wealth but......
I have a friend who bought gold when it was US$750/oz. He still holds it and while he is happier with it than he was three years ago he still is a little less than impressed with gold as a store of value.
Surely even gold, great though it is, cannot be held forever.
Are all the posters on this great Forum going to buy and watch it rise to $400, $500 and maybe $600 and not even in the far recesses of their minds have an exit point planned when they will divest some of it?
Do many of you remember in the 80's a similar looming crisis. The Aden Sisters and Howard Ruff, to name only two that spring to mind, were forecasting gold at $2000 plus and dividends from gold mines would be greater than the then price of the shares. We were also being entreated to buy powdered milk and lentils etc and to move to a well armed shack in the backwoods to hide from marauding hoards.
None of this happened and IMHO it won't now.
I never expected the high inflation to fall but it has. Maybe all done with smoke and mirrors though.
Hey, its funplaying Devils Advocate.
Today in Australia there was only a light sell down in the gold mining sector and I was a buyer.
But what will happen in NY tonight?
Mr Gresham
(10/05/2003; 23:37:17 MDT - Msg ID: 109879)
Robert, otish mountain, GAB
Robert -- thanks for the link; I had read the summary at the original site, and now have the chance to read more of the report. The passage below especially stuck with me through the day:

"Unfortunately, if you remove fossil fuels from the equation, the daily diet will require 111 hours of endosomatic labor per capita; that is, the current
U.S. daily diet would require nearly three weeks of labor per capita to produce."

Now I don't think the food production ratio will get that bad, but it will grown significantly beyond the 20 minutes it now takes. I suspect then it will be a time to "speak softly (maintain a low profile) and carry a big stick", and I'm procrastinating getting the training I need to do the second part of that competently. I will not, until I do.

But your thoughts seem to me to jump illogically from a sense of panic. I brought that concept forward from the (Swedish? Danish?) researchers' sudden downgrading of oil reserve levels, and mentioned the sudden undercutting of food production that would imply in this country. But I don't take the leaps that you do.

1) Although I, too, wonder what all of the people now working in offices will do to earn their daily (more expensive) bread, and I, too, think the earth's human population will have to decline, I don't see the Mad Max scenario of rampaging hordes lying in wait for me to harvest my corn patch out back.

My father tells me about a couple of seasonal hoboes who came around each year during the Depression to help out on his family's small farm, and earn meals and a place to sleep. Maybe that's where I get my less-dramatic, more bucolic images from? I do know that the demographics -- and attitudes -- now are considerably different, so the uncertainties would tend to skew things in your direction, but I just don't know how far.

2) The leap to gold not "being wealth" doesn't parse. If humanity decides to hold a mass funeral, am I expected to jump on the pyre with the others? Your desperation leaves no prescription, either for the individual, or for the society (and these MAY be different). I have my thoughts, for each. I've had to cut loose, and go my own way, when I found that almost no one cared to listen or act upon solutions for either. By the time they come to some wisdom, by absorbing many hard knocks, where will I be for having gone with them? I've already learned from my own...

As I read you again, I ask "Is it expected that gold can stop the population correction from happening?" No -- gold is not Man's edge vis-a-vis Nature or for survival within the natural order. It is only a mechanism WITHIN society for him to hold his purchasing power from the labor of others.

I ask you: When you are 80 years old, in a be-nighted world, and not feeling quite up to "111 hours of endosomatic labor", do you want to be without purchasing power? And mightn't you then think you'd trade all your gold to be 20 again? Which you can't do, so better to have it.

Gold is stored labor value, and it will be exchangeable -- directly or via fiat paper -- for food, or other supplies, as it has been for millennia. If I could know the exact non-perishable supplies I would need for the rest of my life, well, maybe I could stock up now. But that's absurd, so that is why humanity bestowed upon gold the role of store of value long, long ago.

I think otish mountain (and GAB) are closer to the likely outcome. I think a whole lot of foolish fiat-maintained games are going to be folding up and leaving town, leaving those of us who've been made to feel foolish for hewing to "The Basics" all these years suddenly appearing wise beyond our accustomed stations.

Basic skills, and the ability to provide one's own food, will appreciate in value relative to the abstract, finance economy-based "skills" we have seen haul in the big bucks during the upswing in the Hubbert/Kondratieff Curves.

And for anyone whose back is going to be 60+ years old during all this revival of "stoop labor" in one's own backyard (if you've got a backyard), why, a stash of shiny stuff might just allow you to take a weekend off now and then, or maybe a night on the town with the missus. (smile)
Mr Gresham
(10/05/2003; 23:59:26 MDT - Msg ID: 109880)
otish mountain
http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/story/0,4567,95751,00.html?My, my, we are busy writers tonight! (I didn't realize it took me over half an hour to do mine, as all below it appeared while I was punctuating myself silly...)

No, it's all kind of a blur from this weekend's reading but the study linked above has the reserves much lower than had been assumed up till now. Black Blade had another aspect of this, and I haven't tracked through all the last few days to see if he hit upon this one, and commented. I know he's given us an in-depth reading list on energy matters before, and I'm about to get the Deffayes book for my Hubbert intro.

"The Uppsala team said the amount of oil and gas left is the equivalent of around 3,500 billion barrels of oil compared with between 5,000 and 18,000 billion barrels estimated by the IPCC."

Goldbug1: There will certainly be a story to be told about how the Dollar was mustered up for another round as wealth vehicle ahead of gold. In fact, anything that people will work for (however they are persuaded to do so) becomes a vehicle of value. My view is that there was more give in the US economy and workforce in 1980 than goldbugs gave it credit for, after the oil shocks of the 70s. Add to that Paul Volcker, muscling the Saudis (?), and getting US workers from 35% to 65% two-worker households (working harder for the same lifestyle), and you get an extended lifespan for Uncle Buck. FOA and Another have a version not being told elsewhere, of backdoor gold deals, and I hope we'll get explained someday, too.

But I think they've gone to the well for the last time -- there are no more demographic goodies to pull out of the hat. In fact, quite the opposite. I could be surprised again, sure, but one of these Fridays, it really will be "Last Call -- Closing Time"...
Liberty Head
(10/06/2003; 00:10:09 MDT - Msg ID: 109881)
Robert #109872
http://www.rhodesiana.com/rsr/rsr2-002.html
Your points are all valid, but they don't tell the whole story.
Short supply/high demand scenarios are not new. Prices rise, more folks go into the production side because that's where the money is. A free market will always flow towards a balance point very rapidly and efficiently. Gold is the best money in a free market. Fiat currency only obstructs the free flow towards the balance point.

A fossil fuel shortage, although problematic, would not result in a world without energy. Ultimately we will have all the energy we need as long as the Sun keeps burning.

We may indeed kill off half our planet anyway just to prove Darwin's theory.
(see link or type Darwin and gold in to Google)


Best Wishes


Mr Gresham
(10/06/2003; 00:30:22 MDT - Msg ID: 109882)
...and, Robert, sorry,
I think I could have chosen words better -- you take a mild barrage when you cross the grain here, as anywhere -- but I've been accused of "panic" too, by those who I knew were not looking at the same data with the same experience as I. They just didn't like the conclusions I was coming up with. So they shoot the messenger. The word "panic" gets used to diminish you, usually.

I'm sure if I had simmered a little longer in my reply, I could have come up with better terminology to reply to you, but I think number one influence in me was wanting to take my first potshot at that old "You can't eat gold" idiocy. Which I realize is not what you were talking about. Right?

Hmmmm, spending my evening posting... Must be trying to avoid some work. ;) If I really want to get sidetracked, I'll find myself trying to explain Hubbert to my kid, who will have to live with most of that future, way more than I will. Get her trying to think of some solar energy businesses or something, to get her through the earning side of life...she's very creative, she'll be designing small solar vehicles by afternoon ;)
Aristotle
(10/06/2003; 00:42:21 MDT - Msg ID: 109883)
...that old "You can't eat Gold" idiocy...
Sir Gresham,

In one definitive and dismissive breath they'll tell you that you can't eat Gold, but then they walk away without telling us which wine will help us wash down our dollars.

Whaaawww!

Gold. Less filling, tastes great. --- Aristotle
Mr Gresham
Ari, energy
http://www.dieoff.com/synopsis.htmAri: When I sell my first doubloon, may I treat you to a pint o' grog and a hearty repast? It'd probably be a first for either of us, and I'd want you to savor all the sweetness of doing "what can never be done."

(Next, we'll tackle the "impossibility" of buying needful things with "large" gold coins, "because no one can give you change for a Krugerrand..." Sheesh...)

Here's the original synopsis page I remembered from the dieoff site way back when...lots about the "energy profit" from each form of energy, and why sweet crude was such a uniquely "profitable" case, a temporary blip that allowed human population to also blip for just awhile.

"Economists everywhere are wrong: perpetual economic motion is impossible! Imagine having an automobile with a ten-gallon tank, but the nearest gas station is eleven gallons away. You cannot fill your tank with a trip to the gas station because the trip burns more gas than you can carry -- it's impossible for you to cover your overhead (the size of your bankroll and the price of the gas are irrelevant). You might as well plant flowers in your auto because you are "out of gas" -- forever. It's the same with the American economy: if we must spend more-than-one unit of energy to produce enough goods and services to buy one unit of energy, it will be impossible for us to cover our overhead. At that point, America's economic machine is "out of gas" -- forever. "

Belgian
@ spotlight msg #109860
Let me repeat Ari: YOU HIT IT RIGHT ON THE NAIL, Sir !!!
Your title already says it all : Trillions for Billions !!!
This is about the "AVAILABILITY" of Physical Gold and the "DEBAUCHE" of printed matter + screen-figures ! The paper gold market versus the Physical Gold Market. Unfree paper gold versus Free Physical Gold !!!

IT REMAINS MORE IMPOSSIBLE TO GO FOR THE PHYSICAL GOLD AS TIME GOES BY ! Those Trillions cannot ...NOT even start the tiniest of Gold chase/rush...WITHOUT HAVING THE POG EXPLODED into the tens of thousands !!!

YES...TRILLIONS (paper) FOR ONLY BILLIONS (gold) !!! I wished that ALL Goldbugs would realize this. But they don't and remain gold paper addicted. Simply because they want to reproduce more of that same paper.

Those Giants that know that the Trillions of buying units (numeraires) multiply much faster than the available Physical Gold, do face this dilemma : Once I dare to start accumulating Physical Gold in exchange for my growing stashes of buying units...NOT A NANOGRAM OF PHYSICAL WILL BE AVAILABLE ANYMORE AT ANY PRICE !!! Because any wild goldrush would kill the existing monetary system at once and create a Babylonic chaos and economic activity would almost stop.

Nobody wishes this to happen and that's why the existing monetary dollar-systems needs a reasonable * exit plan * !

In the mean time, as much Gold as possible is accumulated without rocking the monetary boat, making it sinking faster than necessary. When we head for the exit, it doesn't matter how much Gold you have because the POG will be revaluated as to correct for so many decades of confetti depreciations that aren't been reflected in today's valuations of the *real* valuables.

A/FOA is about the possible/probable monetary "exit plan".
The absolute majority of the general public will start buying Physical Gold as soon as they face the "fait accompli" and have to pay an arm or a leg for it (the Gold).
That's WHY there must always be Physical Gold available for the masses (stubborn contrarians) as to not risk a Gold stampede by those masses, reacting emotionally without any restraint.

We only get Gold Accumulation signals from countries that are percepted as...third world countries (China, Russia, ME, India). The economical leading countries (and close fidel allies) must be percepted as Gold sellers as to provide enough Physical Gold available and prevent any Gold reflexes !

GLOBAL GOLD PERCEPTIONS ARE UNDER MANAGEMENT !!! Cfr. the tonnes of financial advise/guidance that is daily offered to many, GRATIS !!! The all embracing BIG BROTHER fenomenon !!!

Compare the monetary-system (transition) exit with the ease of jumping into Iraq
and how difficult (complicated) any possible orderly exit will be.
Idem dito for 50 years of Israeli/Palestine conflict.

Bringing Gold back into the monetary system is a very, VERY delicate matter !!!

Correct understanding of the right Big Picture needs a lot of efforts but has always been Very rewarding.
That's what we try to achieve overhere, all together.


Aristotle
Not exactly a eulogy, but it's still a funeral for the dollar (as a RESERVE asset)
news snip:
= = = =
Duisenberg told the Financial Time's sister Spanish publication Expansion that while a fall in the dollar was "unavoidable," he "prayed" that it would be gradual.

"We hope and pray that this adjustment, which is unavoidable, will be slow and gradual. We will do everything in our power to make it slow and gradual. Until now, the adjustment is only against the euro," he said, according to the FT.
= = = =

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle

PS. These days the "past masters" must REALLY be feeling the pain of a system that has indeed outlived its usefulness -- to them! (meaning, it's no longer delivering benefits to the old masters.) George Bush is AGAIN talking publically about this new-fangled concept w/r/t monetary affairs called "FAIRNESS." Twice in one sentence, even!

GWB says, "fair trade means currency policies are fair."

tic toc tic toc tic toc...
DummyANI
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 11 27,754�c plus0512 �c 381.1(Dec.2003)
Sep. 12 27,810�c plus0056 �c 380.8
Sep. 15 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....376.9
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 03 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7
Oct. 05 53,796�c plus15038�c...370.0

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
Belgian
@spotlight : About the increasing * UN-AVAILABILITY * of Physical Gold
1/ CBs with excess gold reserves reshuffle some to CBs with not enough gold reserves !
2/ 3,000 Tonnes of undergound gold already sold forward !
3/ China AND Russia stepping up their goldmining on their own soil !
4/ Efforts to paperize Indian gold trade/market !
5/ ETF (Equity Gold Fund) paper gold as to canalize demand !
6/ The WAG !
7/ No big numismatic Gold issueing.

THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONETARY GOLD AT THESE PRICES !!!

The fine art of Gold Management is to obtain the exact opposite "perception" that there is a gold glut !!! And I stick to this theory, not because I happen to accumulate Gold, but because I'm in the illusion that I start to "understand" what is going on.

The present (and '04) currency floating will remain constrained (disciplined-orderly) for as long as the illusion of an economic recovery remains in place. Beware, if and when this might NOT materialize !!!
Aristotle
Mr G'
I'll be there!

Grog... they can water down our rum, but damn them for watering/papering down our Gold! But hey! When you see it FOR WHAT IT IS, this is a (temporary) system (of cheap Gold) that we'll gladly let run its course while it delivers (UN*fair*ly) in OUR favor; a windfall for the astute. Let all others come around when they may!

Gold. Get you some. --- Ari
Gandalf the White
EASY SPOT ! Slowly and Easily !
Just cleared $373.0 !
Slowly and EASILY !
<;-)
Belgian
From the financial fraternity....
Another analyst (humm) appears on the screen with the message that we, stupid goldbugs, can and must expect a POG above the 400$. This "German" analyst (German puts more euro weight for a change) explains WHY a POG of 400$ plus is justified and surely to be expected, and then adds that the goldbug's POG projections of 600$-800$ plus, are nonsense...BUT THIS CHAP IS NOT SAYING WHY a higher POG isn't possible !!! This daily management of perceptions and the guiding too this or that target is sickening.

In the comments about the (rising) POO, the oil-flow management by OPEC (Saudi swing producer) doesn't seem to be (politically) un-correct...
The attitudes towards Gold must be deceptive ones !!! The "GUIDANCE" on the evolving POG is of such a (an intelligent) nature that it is part of the circumstancial evidence for the coming Big changes in the Gold market.
Think deep about this when trying to evaluate the present POG-level in the whole context !!!
Belgian
Growth and Stability....
If growth in Euroland is not going to pick up soon, the *stability* in the pact might come under more severe strain, internally and from outside !
The dollar wishes the euro to re-connect to growing "deficits" (become like the dollar-system) as to boost growth. This is going to affect the $-� exchange rate with a probability that this exch. rate business is going to be catapulted into another kind of currency management (more drastic measures)(POG) !?

The more the global economy becomes unstable-growthless, the fiercer the battle will become on the floating fields.
I'm ready...
Clink!
@ Druid
Just so we are ready for the need, 1000 trillion is a quadrillion. And now a small guessing game - when will we first hear that term used on TV on anything other than the Science Channel talking about space !

C!
Waverider
Currency wars likely to resume as early as this week
http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/sub/premiumstory/0,4574,95827,00.html?"CURRENCY wars could erupt again as early as this week, some dealers say, dismissing the relief for the beleaguered US dollar from news of better than expected US employment growth as only temporary. Indeed, some economists suggest that the dollar's recent fall against the yen and other Asian currencies could accelerate rapidly as US President George Bush and other administration officials step up their calls for greater flexibility in exchange rates. Japan intervened in foreign exchange markets last week (using the US Federal Reserve as its agent on occasions) to stem the yen's rise...But few analysts believe it likely that Japan can hold even the 110 line for long - and that the market will now push for a 105 yen/dollar rate."

Waverider: The mainstream media finally catches on to what Black Blade has been saying for quite some time now.
Gandalf the White
WOWSERS --- LOOK at the COMEX volume TODAY !!!
Dec 03 Contract COMEX 10/6/03 at 11:18 NY time
Open $372.0 HIGH $373.9 low $370.5 Last 373.7
Change from Fri Settlement +$3.7 VOLUME = 111,988
BUT most importantly -- THEY have not yet posted the
OPEN INTEREST data from Friday's MANIPULATION !
I am watching !
<;-)
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
The only way you can beat this BULLION offer... is with a stick!
http://www.usagold.com/gold-coins.html

Save your "strength" -- call us today!


Gold Bullion
slingshot
All Right!
Spent a weekend in the woods that was fantastic and come back to POG and POS on a pullback. Had to take alittle off the table.

@ Gandalf. Hang on to that crystal ball. I do not worry about the swings in POG. Can Gold go to $350? I think it can. We have seen ,$2.00-$5.00 swing. Then $5 to $10. Are we soon to see, $10- $15.

Bring it on!

Great Posts Everyone.
Slingshot---------------------<>
TownCrier
Because the "G1" system has run into a wall...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031006/economy_eu_kochweser_1.htmlHEADLINE: EU,US ought to forge G2 alliance on FX - Koch-Weser

BERLIN, Oct 6 (Reuters) - The European Union and United States should forge an informal 'G2' alliance on monetary policy and trade that could also be a basis for currency cooperation, German Deputy Finance Minister Caio Koch-Weser said on Monday.

"There are several areas where the G2 could begin operating promptly. One is competition policy... Another lies in the domain of monetary policy, where the European Central Bank manages the world's second key currency with even more autonomy than the Federal Reserve."

...Coordination on macro economic policy has stirred foreign exchange markets into a fury of speculation that the big economic powers want to smooth the depreciation of the dollar by allowing the yen and Chinese yuan to rise.

------(see url for article)-------

Like autumn itself, the signs of imminent change are in the air. Heck, as if symbolic of that exact thought, the dollar itself is changing color... have you seen any of the new $20 bills that hit the streets last week? Summer's green is now a thing of the past.

R.
Pizz
Very Few Rabbits Left. . . .
to pull out of the proverbial hat. So the PTB spend the bulk of their time trying to keep the sheeple penned in. Won't last.

Auto industry is battening down the hatches so to speak. Layoffs and production cuts coming. Incentives and 0 percent have run their course. No pricing power at the dealership level. In fact, if your car is less than 5 years old, it has depreciated about 25% in the last six months (10% is normal).

If you take the time to look, you may see more individuals trying to sell their cars rather than trade them in, since retail is a better price than trade in, assuming you can find someone with the money to buy it. Problem is that we've been financing up to 115% of RETAIL for years, so loan values exceed market by quite a bit, and now the banks are tightening up on the middle class buyer, so sales are going to be soft (at best) for a few years. There is light at the end of a 3-4 year tunnel though, cause the new cars sold over the past couple years had rebates and 0%, so after three years or so of makeing payments, people will have equity in their vehicles agian (we hope). . .we just have to survive the next three years. . .not as easy as many think.

I fully expect the housing market to slow rather dramatically over the next year. Had my house on the market in Seattle area for two months and had one offer. . took it and ran like heck. . . .but I fully expect the brokers to put together something like the auto industry has done for years. . .trade in one house for another and roll negative equity over into new loans. . .bout all they will be able to do as rates rise. . . cash prices may drop quite a bit, but I expect volume to drop off as repo's go up. If you have to sell and owe more than it's worth, it'll repo without a lot of cash from the seller, if you don't have to sell, prices will still be high based upon loan and tax value, but with no bids. . .

Long term, gold has no where to go but up. I am amazed at the short term thinkers that panic at 5 and 10 per cent corrections when the printing presses are running full time, the dollar about to drop down an elevator shaft (with government approval), and we are going to have a major recovery without auto's, housing, and construction running full steam. . . .right.

Went into Canada over the weekend to open a Canadian account for a little diversification and currency speculation (sinceI still need fiat to operate). Canadian merchants still LOVE the US buck, and years of depreciation against the dollar still fresh in their minds, but when I talked the merits of dollar demise and gold's future, at least they listen. We're just a bit too uneducated (brainwashed is probably a better term) and pompous to suit me. . .oh well, stagflation is here, and as long as our PM's are HANDY, we'll do just find. . . .

Pizz



steady
honesty
if wall st was honest its name would be false street ! or manipulation avenue, or mangaged lane, or dishonset road!
Gandalf the White
Finally -- the OPEN INTEREST data from Friday's COMEX run on the Stop loss orders!
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/marketquotes/index.php3?market=GC10/4/03 Dec 03 Open Interest = 201,214
10/5/03 Dec 03 Open Interest = 196,869
DIFFERENCE = 4,345 !!
See how well the CABAL did in Starting the stampeed of Long Stop Loss activity and then buying back their initial shorts and making a BIG PROFIT !
NOW they have lots more US$ in the Bank and can continue holding down the POG again !
WITH PHYSICAL gold, you need not have a STOP LOSS order to save youself a margin call, as you OWN the whole piece of YELLOW !
===
Slowly and easily, SPOT --- UP!!
<;-)

Gandalf the White
Good to hear from you Sir Pizz !!
Congratulations on the Seattle area Real Estate transaction.
Thanks for the UPDATE on autos, and "Be not a STRANGER" to the Forum -- IF you have the time between trying to think of new ways to squeeze a buck out of a new auto sale.
<;-)
steady
refining ecoism
see unlike mercantilism where the state was after everincreasing hordes of gold and silver ecoism is where individuals within a state are after ever increasing hordes of gold and silver to reestablish a fair honest money regim on planet earth.
unlike nationalism it isnt the desire to become part of a nation of like individuals , matter of fact most proponets of ecoisn no longer look to the state for economic decision assistance as its figures are to frequently redefined up or down ( look to usa for the lead in changing its numbers.) rather they look to other members of the ecoism movement to assist them in determing the best stoarge spot for there wealth.

ecoism the first new ism of the 21st centuary!
Rimh
Interseting to note....
While many eyes were on gold this morning, and everyone here is pleased to see signs of a recovery, did anyone (besides the hardcore silverbugs) notice the early, somewhat heavy trashing of silver? Perhaps they are trying to use it as non-confirmation of gold's reverse to the upside?

And what of the US dollar this morning? I have been having trouble getting the INO quotes this morning. When I did get a quote just recently, I noticed the USD took it's own big hit down to 92.33. Is this below the critical resistance level? Seems like there might be a battle of epic proportions happening on many fronts this morning...

Get your real gold and silver now while you still can!
steady
further notes on ecoisms progression
ecoism is where individuals decide to protect themselvs from govt debasement of money, opps i mean fiat script, and move towards desiring to see business meetings where no shades are drawn (n.young) sure ecoism is in its incubation stage trying to develope an identity that will be recognized by every race/nationality, and economist whether thye be austrian or keynsian. ecoism just wants respect but at the moment isnt recieving any so is offering none in exchange.
ecoism will grow up , ecoism will eveolve and finally one day ecism will bew spoen of on cnbc where it wont be able to explain the phenominon but will give it great reviews. (thanks neil)
ecosim has decided to use a marketing tool a slogan to hang its hat on for now untill it beomes more widely recognized
that slogan is
honest money.
who can argue with honesty.
and we all know what money is so ecoism promotes honest money as its top priority. those who favor ecoism also favor honest moeny as they are one in the same.
how do u explain soething that is happening before your eyes but can not necesarily defined as its morphing as we read this? you cant front run it for it may go on a differnt tangetn yet you cant wait for it to hapen as then u just become another knee jerck reactioany type.
ah the joy of being on ehe cusp of the golden wave hanging ten , getting tube and having hte ride of the lifetime on this wonderful planet!
TownCrier
Rhona O'Connell writes:
http://www.gold.org/"We commented at the end of last week that some gold dealers were looking for a washout to clear away some speculative positions and on Friday in New York that is exactly what they got.

"After quiet sessions in Asia and London on Friday, with the majority of financial markets waiting for the non-farm payroll figures, gold initially firmed in New York, moving up to $386/ounce.

"For a while after the employment figures came out, gold held steady above the $382/ounce level. Market participants had commented the previous day, however, that sell-stops were building below $382/ounce and once the euro started a rapid depreciation, so gold fund liquidation took the price through $382 and a rapid decline ensued as speculators bailed out, stale bulls liquidated, some short selling developed and more stops were hit. The low for the day was around the $367/ounce mark before some bargain hunting brought the price up to close off the lows.

"The drop in price has been met by healthy physical buying from Asia and the Indian sub-continent and dealers in Asia this morning were confident that support would build around $370/ounce.

"Indian dealers are talking in terms of a trebling in imports this week as a result of the price fall -- although it should be pointed out that they had been remarkably sluggish recently, especially given that the wedding season has started, and also that the price volatility will have to die away before buyers return in force.

"Traders in Mumbai, however, are expecting imports to increase towards 400kg per day this week after 100kg per day of late."

------

Bottom line: If you don't get it, others will. Get physical while metal can yet be found and had, clearing at its derivative price.

R.
MK
Serious Question....
What would be the repercussions if California were to go the way of Argentina?
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
@MK - Serious Question
Would that be allowed? After all, we're only talking 8 or 9 billion are we not? Surely, the lender/buyer of last resort would step in and bail them out. If 87 billion can be raised for the "re-construction" of Iraq, then..............
tyro
Charging Rent
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/print_story.asp?print=1&guid={A4BC4C95-0D01-4BA1-B004-3FD57A4B0B1E}&siteid=mktwSnip: "SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- In another death knell for the form of payment known as a check, an increasing number of Americans can now pay their rent by credit card.
More than 1,000 properties consisting of about 350,000 rental units nationwide now accept Visa for rent payments, up 43 percent from a year ago, the credit card association reported."

tyro: As if consumers need another avenue to go further into debt!
CoBra(too)
Wim Duisenberg's Concerns
are apparently that a rapid devaluation of the US dollar would upset the applecart, huh, the global monetary system.
So he would wish for a gradual depreciation and also that East Asia would share in the burden more evenly. Competitive devaluations would only speed the demise.

At his press conference in Lisbon on Oct. 2nd. he gave the following response, which I find extremely telling:

Duisenberg: "I am as confident as I was four weeks ago about the resumption of economic growth, not more, not less. The United States has a big problem of basically twin deficits, a close to 5% current account deficit, a close to 5% fiscal deficit, that you can afford for one year, two years or three years, but at some point there has to be an adjustment. We hope that the bulk of that adjustment will come through a pick-up of growth in the United States, and for the rest it is a problem for them and for us and for the rest of the world. We do hope � that is what I said in my statement earlier � that the burden of adjustment which has to come will be spread more evenly over the entire world than has been the case up until now".

cb2 - Seems the ECB and all other CB's are adjusting to the fact that the dollar will have to substantially depreciate further. But please let it be orderly and don't push the issue too rapidly. The other side of the coin may also mean a gradual appreciation of the POG and with it the �.



USAGOLD Daily Market Report
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has beenupdated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our freeintroductory information packet detailing the products and services offeredby USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and lookforward to working with you.


The DMR is a little late late today. There was little to discuss as it was a slow day with the lack of significant econonic data to refer too other than a weaker U.S. dollar in the continuing "currency war". There was some spirited discussion among my fellow geologosts anout gold and energy markets as well.

That said, Remember that tommorow is the beginning of "Confession Season" for corporate earnings. It may be a slow week due to lackluster data releases except Thursday's unemployment data and Friday's GDP data for August and September revsions. Also as I climbed into the "high country" I quickly realized that it would turn out a bit more technical than I had expected so my minor frost-bittem fingers may not have convincingly conveyed my DMR message acturately and clearly as I had wished. But then what "true geologist" could pass up such an opportunity to "look at rocks" and gelogical structures ;-)

Hopefuly tomorrow will be a day of reflection on the economy and precious metals. In the meantime, look at the lower precious metals as a "gift" courtesy of clueless speculators/banks/funds - that will nat last long as physical interest grows with the approach of the Diwali (Festival of Lights) and marriage seaon in the Indian subcontinent (along with a nearly perfect monsoon season, and western jewelers restocking for the traditional gift giving season.

- Jon H. Warner -
Rimh
Re: MK's Serious Question
Is the question: Will the Kalifornians simply default on their debt and the politicians refuse to raise taxes/change policy to get their financial books on a firmer footing (followed by rioting in the streets, etc. etc....) or am I missing the point?

This could be a real test as to how resilient/fragile the US economy really is in the largest(?) of the regional financial blocks. Will it represent a proxy for the value of a share of USA Corp.? With the media circus surrounding this vote tomorrow, the world will be watching to see which way the voters of Kalifornia Inc. want to go.

Somehow I doubt any real change in our thinking (collectively) will change much until we hit bottom - which is a long way from here. In the mean time, those of us who see it coming can/must prepare as best we can and hope that the worst case scenario is not our fate.
Waverider
Black Blade
Thanks for today's DMR and TAKE CARE of those frost-bittem fingers of yours!! Gata run....
glennh10
The Money
People don't think too much about THE money. They do think about money. They think about how nice it would be to have more; they think about taxes, and how to pay less; they think about the future equity in their home, and what it'll buy them, and how it's (hopefully) gonna make their retired life comfortable; and their kids rich; they think the same about their IRA, their 401K, or whatever other retirement/pension account they've recently put their faith back into. As far as THE money, however, they don't bother about it, at all.

Nothing's happened (yet) to make them aware. To them, it's the govt's concern, to manage the money. If it goes to "pot", or weakens, they understand their role to be to vote in somebody else who promises to "turn it around". To them, the gov't goes with the money like the Maytag repairman is to their washing machine. The repair man fixes it; the government manages it; To the people, if the money ends up with a problem, it means the person in charge was incompetent, or, ala Enron, crooked. They don't see beyond the gov't/money paradigm (yet).

When the situation deteriorates to the point where the people do find that they must involve themselves in the money; when they are driven to this point; when they find that the "problem" with the money is really quite simple and basic, as opposed to Ph.D.-level complex (justifying a labyrinth of central banks, IMF, ESF, World Bank, etc.).
When they get a grip on how they've been betrayed, look out. Yes, BETRAYED. Swindled. And worse, "sucked in".

The question in my mind is, how close must we get to TSHTF before a real, popular discussion of THE MONEY does ensue? How close to the fire?

Black Blade
Waverider
Thanks, my swollen fingers have made typing a bit clumsy even though neoprene gloves helped I have had to make numerous corrections to misspellings and grammer. I am hitting two keys at once. I am told that I should see the swelling reduce in the next couple of days but thankfully no loss of any appendages are expected. I don't know how I get talked into these things but we did summit well above the snow line. I had though that the late summer would have been an excellent opportunity but alas the excrusion did take two days instead of the one and a half days. But then this isn't the first time either and probably not the last. With a new martial arts class to start next Monday I will nurse myself back to health. Meanwhile a good extrenous workout should be beneficial and get the blood flowing. Now if only I found some gold in the process. ;-)

Cheers!

Black Blade
GoldNewbie
USAGOLD company info
I am considering starting to invest in physical gold and just found the USAGOLD site.

Everything looks attractive and reasonable, but I'd like some independent info on the company before buying from them.

Can anybody share the opinion and/or point me to some reputable unbiased sources? Any input would be highly appreciated.

Thanks,

GoldNewbie
R Powell
Silver coin
A brandy new shinny silver Eagle coin was delivered to me by the U.S.Postal authorities today. Thank you, thank you, thank you.....

B.B. Got gloves? My old fingers turn white, puffy and lose feeling anywhere below about 40 degrees. They've been like that ever since I let them get frost bitten in my youth. Take care of yourself!
R Powell
Gold Newbie
I have bought silver from "the company". I got exactly what I bargined for in rapid order. If you care to ask CPM (the company) for my address, I'll be glad to talk to you by mail, phone or e-mail. I can't post my e-mail on the forum (against the rules of the house) but CPM has it and my permission to give it to you.

The company also sells silver! You get more weight for your buck with silver.
Rich
silvercollector
Sickening
Refering to my post #109846 lamenting about the blatant manipulation of the gold market I see the USD has taken its 1 cent dive today to trade back at Friday's levels. (presently 92.29; we still wait for it to breakdown thru 91.9)

I am pleasantly surprised to see that James Turk has jumped all over Friday's SUPER-SCAM. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1708

Thanks ge for your note.

John Ing was on the tube half an hour ago, he is all over $510 this year. I only caught bits and pieces. Apparently Bush has beat Johnson (war deficits) and now some important debt ratio is at 20.5% (Johnson's record was 19.5%). Hopefully someone can elaborate on this number. TIA. Ing also mentioned that the Muslim world has stopped financing the US debt machine, it is only a matter of time before Asia stopps as well.

Bush was on the tube an hour ago suggesting that Israel has a 'right to defend herself'. Brillant.

Why doesn't Bush and his cronies help the planet instead of wasting taxpayer money ambushing gold?


TownCrier
A little background and company info that may help
http://www.usagold.com/cpm/aboutmore.htmlAlthough this forum has been active for only five years, the USAGOLD/Centennial brokerage has been serving gold investors since 1973. I don't know what more meaningful insight I can offer on the matter; perhaps that not only do I rattle around like a sort of ghostly janitor within these cyber walls, I'm a satisfied customer, too!

R.
Mr Gresham
glennh10, Pizz
Welcome home, Pizz!

glenn: Fine explication of the attitudes out there. Passive and childlike trust, while remaining cynical of those who are tasked to "rescue" them. Ultimate irresponsibility. As long as there's someone else to blame, who cares if your kids are hungry?

Then, on the opposite corner, the mondo doomers who wail "if it gets this bad, you might as well curl up and die. No way to save yourself." Sheesh!
Cavan Man
March of Folly Chronicles
Shades of Nixon/KissingerBush Tightens Control Over Iraq Policy
NSC Adviser Rice Will Coordinate Support for Reconstruction
By Mike Allen and Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, October 6, 2003; 2:05 PM


President Bush asserted more direct White House control over the Pentagon-run reconstruction of Iraq today, announcing that he has put national security adviser Condoleezza Rice in charge of a new authority designed to alleviate mounting criticism of the administration's postwar progress.

Buy physical gold and prepare for the NEW monetary paradigm.

Cavan Man
"Pentagon run-reconstruction"
.....or did the writer intend, "occupation"?
Cometose
Cavan Man / Reconstruction
Did President BUSH mention which accounting firm the GOV"T was going to enlist to watch over TAXPAYER MONEY>>>>>?????
while they rebuild IRAQ....

did he mention any contractors that might be used in the rebuilding .......did the name Carlisle GROUP come up ???
Dollar Bill
*>*............+
Sir Robert, Sometimes our sources dont deserve the trust we put in them. I have a number of former sources of teaching that I now dismiss as immature. I would add the link you posted to that list. Here is a paragraph to illustrate the college level writing and research data. Unverified research by the way.


"At present, nearly 40% of all land-based photosynthetic capability has been appropriated by human beings.
(I dont believe that 40% figure, from where?)
2 In the United States we divert more than half
of the energy captured by photosynthesis.
(Who measured that?)
3 We have taken over all the prime real estate on this planet.
The rest of nature is forced to make due with what is left. Plainly, this is one of the major factors in species
extinctions and in ecosystem stress." (I think we can safely ignore the assesments made by this guy.)
Chris Powell
Friday's gold rout on Comex didn't shake many people out after all
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1710Despite Friday's seeming rout of the gold price, there
wasn't much decline in open interest in gold on the
Comex.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
GoldNewbie
Best gold buy
What product (bars or coins and which ones) would the esteemed forum community recommend as the best gold buy right now?

Thanks in advance,

GoldNewbie
TownCrier
A suggestion for all such "GoldNewbies" out there
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/rationale.htmlThere is a toll free number at the bottom of the page which you can call during Denver business hours (8:00am - 6:00pm Mountain Time) for a friendly consultation on a diversification strategy tailored to your personal needs and goals.

R.
Chris Powell
Traders are getting wise to the gold price suppression scheme
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1711South African gold analyst Victor Hugo says traders
are increasingly convinced that central banks are
surreptitiously intervening against gold to protect the
U.S. dollar and treasury bonds:


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Black Blade
Gold Newbie
Gold is gold. Persoanlly I prefer 24K ,y self - a purist I suppose - just love that glowing gold color. But I have Maple Leafs, Aussie Nuggets, and J&M wafers as well as some collectables. Some prefer to be "patriotic" and go for Eagles. But it's personal preference I guess. Even the duller colored Krugerands (but nicely designed) are good. You can get em' all here at the castle. Just for laughs call George Cooper to talk it over or if a small order drive Jonathon a little batty with some gold discussions. ;-) Seriously though, they can help you out no matter what you decide. Of course you can make your own decision on bullion and pre-1933's at the small order desk. Even Mike is a good listener and willing to bring you along and up to speed on your decision. George can help you with an IRA rollover (even a partial IRA rollover I am sure). Check out the links at the top of this page or the home page. Anyway, I got to go and get some excercise and painfully reactivate the blood flow in these fingers. Cheers!

-Black Blade
Waverider
Sir GoldNewbie
http://www.usagold.com/cpm/abcs.htmlAlso consider ordering Sir MK's book titled: "The ABCs of Gold Investing: Protecting your Wealth through Private Gold Ownership". You shall find ordering information at the above link. I ordered two - one for myself and one to lend out to friends who show interest when I talk about Gold. Welcome and Cheers,
Waverider
GD
Centennial Experience
Gold Newbie,

I have not posted on this forum in over 2 years. Your plea for info regarding our host has pulled me out of lurkdom. I have personally spoken with Michael, George, and Marie to secure my purchases of the yellow metal in various forms over the past two years. I treasure them, not only as my financial advisors, but also, my link to the world economics and finance. Gold and silver, are generally viewed in worldly terms. Currency, oil, and gold seem to be what makes the world economy move on a day to day basis.

I have been very happy with the advice received from CPM regarding the types and percentage of the yellow and silvery metal that I have purchased for my physical and retirement portfolio. I am invested in this medium at a much higher percentage than most, I believe, and have been doing so for over 8 years. I have bullion coins, pre-33s and Liberty/St.Gaudiens as well as silver 100 oz bars and junk silver coins. I also, have done very well in the last couple of years with a small percentage of my portfolio in gold and silver mining shares. But get your physical first! After the beating most of us took through the 1995-2001 timeframe, it feels good to be at the front of the pack.

Back to my friends at CPM, they have delivered the yellow products in a safe, and timely matter at very competitive prices. I have purchased from other national as well as local dealers and CPM has always provided me with a lower price on the same goods.

I am sure you will hear similar comments from the other esteemed forum members.

You are starting out at the right place, at the right time. Happy wealth preservation to you!!

To the rest of the forum posters....I have always checked in on a daily basis to see what was at the forefront of the gold and world economy, knowing that the quality of information making it to this forum was the best on the net. I thank you for taking the time to grace this bulletin board with your wisdom, research, and knowledge. It has helped me keep the faith in our precious metals. I am not sure how much I will be able to continue to post going foward...It is laborious to type when you can't. I just wanted Newbie to know what a terrific service CPM provides.

GD
Druid
Clink! (10/6/03; 06:58:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 109893)
"Just so we are ready for the need, 1000 trillion is a quadrillion. And now a small guessing game - when will we first hear that term used on TV on anything other than the Science Channel talking about space !"


Druid: Clink! thanks for the reply. It doesn't seem so long ago that I was in class trying to wrap my mind around the unit measurement of a "trillion." Man! these gents have been busy. It's a lot of work punching those numbers in. "Quadrillion" has a nice ring to it.
Remarx
@GoldNewbie
I started a few months ago with a purchase of Gold Eagles because I thought, as an American, they would be the safest bet. Since then I have proceeded on to both Gold and Silver Maple Leafs (I like the idea of .9999 purity in the gold Maples). I haven't ventured into collectibles yet, and may never get there, although it is highly recommended by nearly all goldbugs as potentially confiscation proof in the future.

CPM is a great place to work with! They are pleasant and _trustworthy_. I highly recommend reading the "ABCs of Gold Investing", by Michael Kosares (from CPM). It can be read in an evening or two and provides a good broad, understandable background and rationale for newbies.

If you would like some more background reading regarding your decision to buy physical precious metals, here are a couple of ideas from the center-left perspective:

- For an eye-opening, relatively short primer on the current state of the dollar and the US deficit, check out billmon's white paper "The Economic Limits of Empire" at http://billmon.org/archives/000233.html. He has a number of other well-written blog entries on the economy; enter the word "economy" in the search window to see a list.

- When you have lots of spare time, I would also recommend "Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country" by William Greider. It gives you a thorough understanding of how money is managed and mismanaged by the Fed, irrespective of the other 3 official government branches, and how tenuous money value is.

Hope this was what you were looking for. It is the kind of stuff I have been checking out as a newbie over the past few months.

Good luck!
steady
how come comex cant reopen to regular hours?
how come the media can report gold at 7 year high, or gold losing 1over 11 bucks in one day but they can not report on comex still not being back at normal operating hours? or even have one member of reutewrs/ bussiness wire/ finamcial times ,newsmeek, the dishonest street journal or any other countries media. Is gold such a relic that present day querries can be ignored planet wide?
Druid
glennh10 (10/6/03; 17:10:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 109914)
http://www.chaos-onomics.com/emorn.htm"People don't think too much about THE money. They do think about money. They think about how nice it would be to have more; they think about taxes, and how to pay less; they think about the future equity in their home, and what it'll buy them, and how it's (hopefully) gonna make their retired life comfortable; and their kids rich; they think the same about their IRA, their 401K, or whatever other retirement/pension account they've recently put their faith back into. As far as THE money, however, they don't bother about it, at all.

Nothing's happened (yet) to make them aware. To them, it's the govt's concern, to manage the money. If it goes to "pot", or weakens, they understand their role to be to vote in somebody else who promises to "turn it around". To them, the gov't goes with the money like the Maytag repairman is to their washing machine. The repair man fixes it; the government manages it; To the people, if the money ends up with a problem, it means the person in charge was incompetent, or, ala Enron, crooked. They don't see beyond the gov't/money paradigm (yet).

When the situation deteriorates to the point where the people do find that they must involve themselves in the money; when they are driven to this point; when they find that the "problem" with the money is really quite simple and basic, as opposed to Ph.D.-level complex (justifying a labyrinth of central banks, IMF, ESF, World Bank, etc.).
When they get a grip on how they've been betrayed, look out. Yes, BETRAYED. Swindled. And worse, "sucked in".

The question in my mind is, how close must we get to TSHTF before a real, popular discussion of THE MONEY does ensue? How close to the fire?

Druid: Glennh10, great post. You've stated quite nicely what I was in a hurry to try and convey on Saturday. Below is another perspective. Like I said before, it's this "mass" awakening about what "money" is and isn't that scares me to the hills. Enjoy.

"Oct 6: We hope and pray that this adjustment [in the US$'s value on foreign exchanges], which is unavoidable, will be slow and gradual. We will do everything in our power to make it slow and gradual. - outgoing ECB chief Wim Duisenberg"

Moving to other things deemed fated, let's turn to Wim, Duisenberg, that is, of the ECB who thinks the US$ is fated to fall. While I agree with Mr. Duisenberg that the US$ must fall, which is to argue that it is currently overvalued, I disagree with the slow and gradual prescription.

It seems to me that in everyone's life there is one most precious commodity, time. The vast majority of people who have ever lived on this planet have packed their whole material existence into the span of 80 years. In that context, 5 years of one's life seems a huge amount of time. Imagine working towards a goal for a few years only to find that it was almost impossible from the outset. Imagine working for Enron. Imagine living in Japan for the past 13 years now as the status quo is maintained at the expense of future generations. We seem to be wasting a lot of time these days.

This wasted time is not well captured by economic statistics, indeed, one of the themes from the monetary powers that be is that people are making better use of their time, as measured by Productivity. Yet these statistics do not distinguish between the diligence of Sisyphus or that of Heracles. One can work quite
hard while at the same time, accomplish nothing. Sadly, it is only with the passage of time that the futility of some past efforts becomes clear.
In a sense, this was one of the goals of free markets and hard money, to provide warning signs when there were gross misallocations of resource, i.e. wasted time. I recently met an unemployed stock broker who had moved up from the city. He had spent 8 years learning how to pitch stocks and was coming to the realization that he had few other skills, despite a graduate degree in "Business Administration." As he can't find a job in his field he is now coming to think that he "wasted his time."

There are, of course, other ways that one can waste time. To the extent one can see the federal debt as time to be spent by citizens earning money to repay it, receipts of debt sales which aren't put to good use are another source of wasted time. Felix Rohatyn of Lazard Freres fame draws the distinction between good debt and bad debt by pointing to its use. According to Mr. Rohatyn, the US needs to take the American Society of Civil Engineers report, which concluded two years ago that bringing America's infrastructure to acceptable standards would require an investment of $1.3 trillion over five years, seriously.

Whether you agree with Mr. Rohatyn or with the current calls from the Bush team for more money for Iraqi reconstruction in a strict economic sense would seem to be based on the chances of success. That is, to the extent the US can gain control over and divert a significant portion of Iraqi oil revenues our way, whether directly or simply by keeping oil prices down, for a considerable period of time, it would seem to be a wise investment. I, for one, am skeptical about the chances of that type of success. The future will tell us if we have all been, in a collectivist sense, wasting our time.
Cometose
(No Subject)
I think Jim Sinclair said 92.38 was the magic number on the dollar........hmmmm something about gold going up on dollar devaluation....Said he put on a big bet friday on the long side....430 sounds just fine and 509 sounds even better.....meter's running boys (big) time to pay the piper.. he who owns the gold makes the rules.....they are going to have fun stripping you from your money.....
Robert
gold, oil and food

Thanks to everybody who responded to my earlier posting on this subject. I appreciate all responses regardless whether critical or supportive. After all, I am visiting this fine forum in order to learn and gain from the collected insight and wisdom of all contributors.

Mr Gresham: thanks for your encouraging words. Regarding the unfolding energy crisis, my advice to you is not to talk too much about this subject to your family and your friends. If you do, very soon you might be considered crazy. People do not like to face pessimistic issues, everything social has to be optimistic. Various people have been writing on the depletion of fossil fuels for a long time, especially since the 1970's. This had the tragic effect that the general public (including politicians) now believes that this is empty talk without much relevance for our present lifes. If at all, we may run out of fossil fuels in some distant future, definitely not during our own life.

Aristotle: Thanks for your advice regarding thinking. While I continue to obey your advice, please consider the following story. In 1912 the famous Titanic hit an iceberg and sank within a few hours. According to the experts at that time this could not have happened because the Titanic was designed to be unsinkable. In fact, since the ship was unsinkable, the designers deliberately decided not to equip the ship with a full set of rescue boats in order to save the shipping company a few bucks. A few boats were added anyway, perhaps more for decoration than for insurance purposes. It was this tragic decision which caused the unnecessary death of many hundred (if not thousand) people.

What makes this story interesting for this forum is the fact that one of the passengers on the Titanic was the famous and very wealthy John Jacob Astor (1864-1912). He was one of the non-surviving passengers. His wife Madeleine Astor did survive not because she was wealthy, no, simply because she was a woman. 18 years ago, when the wreck of the Titanic was found on the floor of the Atlantic, the gold jewelery and the gold pocketwatch belonging to John Jacob Astor were recovered. I do not know whether Astor offered any rewards for a seat on a rescue boat or not. Nevertheless, Aristotle, we can ask the following hypothetical question: Do you think that anybody on the rescue boat (there were male adults on the rescue boats as well) would have traded his seat for all the gold Astor's estate could have bought at that time?
Can gold be really wealth if it can not save your life?

In the past, gold was called the metal of kings because only kings could afford the army of soldiers and peasents necessary in order to defend the gold against the "rule of life". The history is full of kings who lost their life (as well as their gold) despite the fact that they had plenty of gold.

The idea that gold may not buy food in the future does indeed appear ridiculous because it contradicts all historical experience. Today gold does buy plenty of food and many other things. And that will be true as long as the marginal cost of producing one ounce of gold will exceed (by many orders of magnitude) the marginal cost of producing one ounce of food (or other goods). In the past, food scarcity was always a local phenomenon. If you suffered from food scarcity, you only had to travel some long distance in order to solve the problem (the potato famine in Ireland caused a huge immigration wave of Irish people to the US). Of course, when traveling, gold comes very handy as a means of payment especially if there is an abundance of food and other goods at your destination. However, if the prediction of a global food scarcity in this century turns out to be true (and these predictions are too serious in order to be rejected as nonsense), then any seller of food for gold will have to face the same basic question as the man in the rescue boat: "do I wish to risk my own survival for the pleasure of owning the yellow metal?"

You can not take the gold with you when leaving this planet. You can hold gold only for a limited period of time. Eventually, you have to sell it against fiat or give it away for free (if it is not taken away from you by force).

By the way, the book "the power of gold" by bernstein contains many interesting historic incidents documenting the tragic importance of this basic question. While I do not agree with the general conclusion of that book, I nevertheless recommend it for the highly interesting history of gold, the symbol of wealth.
slingshot
Midas Crusade
The coming days would show the benefits of this alliance.
The Captains of War spent long nights at the Oaken Table. Planning to use all their resources to the best of their capabilities against the Dark Forces.Demonstrations of bow sword and horsemanship on the field beside the castle, were observed by Sir Black Blade and Omar. Lady Waverider joined them and then Omar asked Lady Waverider. May I handle your sword,my Lady? A slight bow to the woman and when he stood up straight, smiled. Even with her remembering his actions at the Oaken Table, he was very handsome and handed him her sword. Thank you, he said. Moving away from them,Omar swung the sword in a variety of moves that were swift and determined actions. It is a good sword, light with a strong blade. Well balanced and the grip firm. You have choosen well. He handed the sword back to her. Omar,then drew his sword and handed it to Lady Waverider. She stepped back and she too swung the sword. Lady Waverider found it also well in her hand. It was long and slim,yet the metal would withstand the blow of any broadsword. The blade swished through the air as to whisper. Handing it back to Omar, she said. It is a fine sword and thanked him for letting her handled it.But Omar wasn't finished. Can you ride a horse? Lady Waverider said Yes. Then Omar shouted in Arabic and a horse was brought to him. This is Allahar.
A beatiful white arabian moved close to Omar. He has been my friend and we trust each other, said Omar. Would you like to ride him? He is quite gentle. Lady Waverider could not resist and she climb into the small saddle. Slight adjustments to the saddle had to be made,but in no time she was ready to ride. Omar, grabbed the reigns and before handing them to the rider, talked to Allahar. The slight nervousness disappeared in the horse. Then Omar redrew his sword and gave it to her. See that straw head upon the pole in the field'said Omar. Lady Waverider, acknowledged. Cut it off! A soft snap of the reigns and she rode out into the field toward the pole. Those on the field stopped to watch as horse and rider come to full gallop.
She drew back the sword high above her head and in a single swipe, severed the straw head from the pole in one motion.
Omar was delighted. Lady Waverider returned. Can you use a bow? asked Omar with excitement in his voice. Sir Black Blade, called for his and it soon was placed in her hands.
Come to a full gallop and hit the target at the far end of the field. She turned Allahar back and rode off. All eyes looked in her direction. Lady Waverider rose up in the stirups and leaning forward over Allahar, brought both bow and arrow to bear on the target. She drew back as the horse
ran across the grass field and let loose the arrow. It was an eternity as the arrow was in flight. Only the sound of it reaching its target broke the silence. It was a killing shot and the approval could be heard across the field.
Sir Black Blade and Omar jumped for joy. Sir M.K and Gandalf came to where they were standing.
Omar took hold of Sir M.K.'s hand. Bow 'sword, horse and speed are now one, he said joyfully.They can not stand before us.Lady Waverier returned with Allahar. A crowd surrounded her.
Never before has this been accomplished.
In the coming weeks,riders and horse were matched and practiced these skills. Many volunteered,few were choosen.
It was the Ladies of the court, as Omar suspected, that proved to be the most capable. Being small yet having great strength. They had a magical bonding with the horses which could not be explained.
As they pactice more and more people sought out the castle. Then one day, word came that the great trading town, which rested between two rivers, had fallen.
Hammerton which lied between the Tyre and Epis river had been turned into a fortress. Both rivers had a single bridge to the east and west and their entrances well fortified.
Maps were laid across the Oaken Table. Cougar studied them. He would hold the key to the taking of Hammerton.
Sir M.K. Gandalf,Omar,and Sir Black Blade gathered at the castle gate. We must march! We can not wait no longer , said Sir M.K. What about the Valiant Knights of Old,and those from the Valley of Clouds?, asked Gandalf.
Again Sir M.K. said, We can wait no longer.
Slingshot--------------------<>
Aristotle
Robert, enlisting a battalion of straw men (one fallacy or many) won't help you overthrow the truth
Didn't I warn you of this in my message? You aren't THINKING enough if you're simply pursuing this same old tired line of reasoning.

Didn't I also warn you that this same strawman logic/argument your using could also be used to overthrow the notion that ANYthing ELSE could be considered wealth?

Let's put it into practice!

You said:

"Do you think that anybody on the rescue boat would have traded his seat for all the gold Astor's estate could have bought at that time? Can gold be really wealth if it can not save your life?"

Your implication is that, "...because Gold could not save them in that situation (i.e., those in the water,) THEREFORE, Gold cannot be considered wealth."

In this same situation, could food have saved them? No. Therefore food is not wealth. Could medicine have saved them? No again. Therefore medicine is not wealth. Oil? Nope. Not wealth. Their castle, shack, cave, undeveloped land? Nope. None of them THEREFORE (using Robert logic) are wealth! Etc? etc. etc!

Weeeeeeeelllllllll then, I guess the only thing you proven is that wealth is a lifeboat. Or perhaps iceburg free waters? Or perhaps it's a crippling fear of trans-Atlantic voyages which keeps you off the Titanic in the first place? Or whatever wealth is, of this we can be sure. In Robert's world, wealth is somehow inextricably bound up with the ill-fated Titanic, and that handful of persons who lived to tell the tale.

I'm not buying into it.

Like I warned earlier, your own strawman fallacy could (and WOULD) be used against you to prove that IF Gold could not be considered wealth in your world, then NOTHING else could, either.

But I'll be charitable for the sake of advancing this discussion. Let's assume that you're making a broader statement about wealth. Something to the effect that wealth is anything you happen to have at the time it is singularly needed to keep you from dying.

In that case, Gold can very easily be shown to be wealth using this lame example (in keeping to the tradition we've established above.)

You're walking down a dark street. A mugger shoves a gun in your back and says, "Gimme some Gold or I'll blow you away!"

If you have Gold, your life is saved from the brink of death. THEREFORE, I have conclusively shown beyond all doubt that Gold is wealth.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

See? This is what simple thinking will do for us. Zippo. THEREFORE, we must engage in DEEEEEEEP thinking. That's exactly what I roundly encouraged you to do in my first message. I hope you'll take me up on it. You'll be glad you did. Please strive to expand that view of the world you carry with you far beyond this cripplingly narrow perspective/interpretation you're projecting. [That is, projecting "narrowness" insofar as this singular thing is concerned. You'll please take special notice that the applicability of this reproach is not to be interpreted as extending in any way beyond the limited topic at hand -- i.e., it's nothing personal, nor is is questioning core competence in any other facet of your existence.]

Gold. It's wealth -- whether you like it or not. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Great Albino Bat
Robert: about not talking about gold

Robert, I have been talking about gold for many years, to all who would listen.

I can tell you that many friends, who years ago were quite skeptical, now consider me as some kind of oracle. Even my bankers. They only wish they personally, had the cash to invest in gold. (They bought stocks!)

For the moment, those who favor gold and say so, especially in the US, where (as Tocqueville noted so many years ago) opinions contrary to those held by the majority are not welcome, have an uphill battle. That is going to change shortly.

Your comments about special situations such as the sinking of a ship, where gold will not buy a place on a lifeboat, are really beside the point. No one will be willing to receive some gold in exchange for taking your place in front of the firing squad, either. But what does that have to do with gold? Nothing at all.

What gold does is give you a much better chance amid the ups and downs of life, and that, no one can deny. Having gold, assures you that you have done what is HUMANLY POSSIBLE. We are all subject to the violent changes which life hurls at us. We can only do, the best we can.

Gold is the best we can do. Nothing further is guaranteed.

The GAB

Just what are you trying to prove, anyway?
silvercollector
Chris Powell
Thank you very, very much for the updates and info. at this critical juncture in time.
slingshot
Just what in blazes is WEALTH anyhow?
Wealth is a perception. It can be financial. It can be health. It can be peace of mind. It can be family. It can be knowledge. It can be one object or the accumulation of many objects. It is in the eye of the beholder. As for gold?
It is a vehicle to obtain status.A denser material with more high tech applications (space exploration) then the less dense material(FIAT). Maybe its a symbionic relationship. One will not live without the other? Ha! One too heavy to carry. The other so light one can print it to infinity. So in surmation. The idea of wealth can change in a moment, depending upon the situation at hand. But at the moment it is financial and GOLD is at the top of my list.
Slingshot--------------<>
Usul
MK's serious question about California
Argentina's economic crisis led to shrinking net capital flows and a deep, protracted, economic contraction of more than 10 percent (World Bank data) which also negatively affected closely linked countries such as Uruguay, Paraguay and Bolivia.

Throughout the Latin America and Caribbean region, contraction followed 0.4 percent growth in 2001.

California is the largest exporter among US states, with top exports being Electric and Electronic Equipment, Industrial Machinery and Computers, Transportation Equipment, Scientific and Measuring Instruments and Food Products.

Its top export markets in 1996 were Japan: $19.7 bn, Canada: $10.6 bn, Mexico: $7.8 bn, Korea: $7.4 bn, and
Singapore: $5.6 bn. The economic ties between California and the rest of the US are also no doubt of great significance.

A falling dollar could conceivably improve California's export situation. However, should there be a dramatic contraction in capital flows, or a LTCM-type event, there is a risk of cascading cross-defaults disrupting international trade, utility supply, and import-export trade through west coast ports.
Without liquidity and trusted means of exchange, export goods could pile up unsold on warehouse shelves.
Basil
Keep It Simple
Reading this forum most every day but some thoughts are way over my head. Call me dense but am still unable to grasp this oil/gold/Another concept.

We print more and more fiat and it is accumulated by our trade creditors from whom we buy more stuff than sell(oil'screwdrivers,clothing,etc).
They've gone along with this scam sofar because they receive interest payments for holding debt--said interest guaranteed by USA's ability to squeeze taxes from her citizenry.

But why are creditors apparently holding back exchanging these increasing amts of $ confetti for Euros,Gold,Gold Dinar,good farmland--anything but computer bits only backed by taxes(insufficient to even cover our own gov't budget) plus Bernacke's "power of the printing press"??.
Is it fear that if they begin dollar dump in earnest the dike will break and all will be left holding the proverbial bag?

Why doesn't OPEC want dollar price of oil high as possible as long as possible?
Conversely why wouldn't USA powers always wish OPEC oil low in price?

The concept of our gov't somehow favoring Iraq's oil NOT getting to market seems convoluted but I'm willing to listen to reasons.

Belgian
Glennh and Druid Q & A
Druid : Liked your response "Wasting Time" to Glennh's "The Money".

Glennh : The answer to your question "How close to the fire..." is relatively simple : When the fire starts to burn the currency (currencies). Burning of a currency = price inflation > hyper price inflation > total worthlessness. Go on a world tour and collect a specimen of ALL the currencies that are worth less than the paper they are printed on AND ARE STILL IN USE !!!

All those banana-currencies were wildly depreciating as in contrast with our trusted currencies ($-�-Y) who do detoriate-devalue in an orderly manner...in relative harmonious concert.

But I still remember the eighties where price-inflation soared, IRs rushed to 14%-15%-17%, the POG topped at 850$/Oz and a general panic was growing. This event was NOT happening in the Congo but in the US and Europ where the $ and DM were not percepted as banana-currencies !!!

Another 1971-(SHTF)event might happen overnight, without any warning or loud public signal. A new big currency-fire !

Is the recent re-enforced Gold manipulation (reshuffling-redistribution) since 1994/95, similar to the London Gold Pool of the sixties, pr�ceding the 1971 event !!!-???
IMVHO, it is Sir. And our planet did not stop spinning around after 1971 and will not stop with a next shocking confetti/digit-event.

Indeed, an overwhelming majority of good folks don't mind wasting their time and efforts on the accumulation or the consolidation of their "wealth" ! That's exactly the reason why the *permanent currency depreciation* will always continue and repeat itself. Nothing wrong with this for as long as this system remains workable and can remain in use to generate broad "global" prosperity. Emphasis on "global" NOW as being different some decades ago, where it were the US and Europe (together) who were leading this planet. We have fast growing other players (powers) coming up on the scene.

What is happening NOW ? : The dollar-power remains over-confident that its ongoing declining maneuver against many different other currencies, is OK ! The general public never cared about "exchange rates" and will "never" care about it. But exchange rates determine the balance or unbalance in this liberalizing/globalizing planet earth, trade. The dollar exchange rate has gained MUCH more importance than ever before !!! This is "conveniently" under-estimated by many.

Will the dollar go bananas or not...Shakespearian Question of to be or not to be ? Or is it the old dollar (dollar reserve) who is going to bring "stability" AND "growth" ? In the expression TSHF...what is the *S* and what will be the *F* ?

The US$ is not only the currency that is used in California,...but that dollar is at the same time the globe's reserve currency...
But all remain extremely quiet about that little problem in California !? It will go away,...isn't it ?

�/$ exch. rate > 1,1750
slingshot
Just who in the heck is Slingshot?
Or, Would you like to talk to you fellow Knight or Lady in person? Hear Ye! Hear ye! my Fellow Knights and Ladies.

I purpose that an avenue of intercontinental communication be established between posters at USAGOLD in the form of voice interaction.
Many corporations have had this capability for years.
To hear the voice of Belgian, Aristotle, GAB, Gandalf the White, and Aragorn III, would be priceless.
Ladies and Knights of the Table Round, I ask you voice your opinion.
I for one, am tired of seeing the typographical side of an individual.
Slingshot--------------<>

No other site has purposed this.
DummyANI
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 11 27,754�c plus0512 �c 381.1(Dec.2003)
Sep. 12 27,810�c plus0056 �c 380.8
Sep. 15 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....376.9
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 03 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7
Oct. 06 53,796�c plus15038�c...370.0
Oct. 07 58,706�c plus4910�c...373.3

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
slingshot
Basil
I do not have your answers. Just wanted to say Hello.
Slingshot--------------<>
Belgian
WEALTH.....
Gold-Wealth seems to be a 5,000 year old tangible that can be transferred to the next generation after one's most ultimate wealt, namely "life" has disappeared. Name me one other tangible that has survived 5,000 years of generational transfers, in the same inert conditions as GOLD ?

�/$ : 1,18

Ari : The main aspect of GOLD is that it is at the "same" time (simultaniously) so easy AND so difficult to "understand" !
That's WHY Gold will be made "more or less" understood for the general public, if and when those that always have known (understood) Gold's role, decide it is the right time and convenient for bringing Gold back into everyone's understanding.

In other words...Do we "NEED" Gold NOW ? The answer of the many, if not all, is : NO WE DO NOT NEED GOLD NOW....because its price (POG) doesn't say so...or...Gold's moves are not enough fun !!! In other words,...we, goldbugs, have no message on this Gold is wealth-talk and other boring theories ! We, the instant money-makers, want action and go where the (ex tempore) action is (created) !

It is when the money-makers (confetti multipliers) are NOT able anymore to make more of the same AND when the stashed confetti is detoriating in its buying power,...then and only then, will the general public, suddenly, easely understand what Gold really always was and remained to be.

It is exactly this very humane psychology that has been exploited by those who managed to hibernate Gold. This remains a "far from my bed theory" for as long as POG isn't shaking the beds. Gold Advocates are the ones who suffer from insomnia and keep on shouting that the Gold Dragon is spitting fire.

Most of those that know that Gold even exists, will buy it...later...much later. Never, ever say ...I told you so ! Give me a smile Ari...thanks, Sir !

The very possible transition from an "orderly" dollar decline into a very possible melt down, will happen extremely brutal ! No time to run for the life jackets or make a start with Wealt Preservation !!! Simple theory for having many goodnight rests.
slingshot
Belgian
California Fifth largest economy in the world. Hang on Belgian, They export Tofu. The Ninth Sucket court has made the decision that it is illegal to consume more than 100 hambergers per year. But there can be 60,000 illegal aliens made citizens in a blink of an eye to vote in the next election. If California is the wave of the furture for the states, HOLD ON NELLIE!
Well, Belgian. I can see why you see these DUMB UGLY AMERICANS.
Slingshot-------------<>
slingshot
Belgian
Damn it. I'm Too slow or your too fast in posting.
slingshot
Gold Is Wealth
Belgian Goldbugs have no message but this gold is wealth -talk.


I count you in on this.


Goldbugs are God Fearing people
Goldbugs Know Right from Wrong
Goldbugs will help their neighbor
Goldbugs stand for justice
Goldbugs have a sense of humor
Goldbugs stand up for their friends
Goldbugs Love their Family

Slingshot---------<>
silvercollector
Red Alert!
Dollar index sitting on the edge at 91.85, might bounce off or might fall over the cliff!!!
silvercollector
Wow!
USD hit 91.69 at approx. 4:30am this morning. USD on life support.
Dollar Bill
*>*.........+
..."The current economic models that emphasize debt and consumption and the transfer of wealth to foreign producers are a prescription for wealth depletion and a roadmap to poverty."

Belgian
Global economy (economies)
Renewed debates (Euroland) on manufacturing and service-economies in the wake of the ongoing exchange rate adjustments.

US AND Euroland, realizing AGAIN that very little manufacturing-base will remain on our territories. The new-old mantras of agricultural > industrial > service, natures of our economies, are raging the same nonsense as ever before.

This fast growing global rift between western des-industrialization (manufacturing) and increasing eastern industrialization will be (IS) the fundamental cause for the coming Big changes. Any service-economy needs a solid basis as to have something that needs servicing.

The West consumes what is produced in the East. What are we going to "serve" in the coming decades ? Will the West become one big Entertainment Park without a funny money ?
This evolution is irreversable and the final result will be unworkable. Things are moving fast/faster, these days.
Soon we are going to look for solutions in very quiet (gold)corners. Very UNCERTAIN times ahead !

@ slingshot : NOT the messengers do have any importance,...but rather the messages that needs to be scrutinized by all.
misetich
1,200 Layoffs Strike at an Industrial City's Heart
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/07/nyregion/07LAYO.htmlSnip:

On Monday, the company confirmed rumors that those ties would loosen, announcing that it would close the two manufacturing plants at its East Syracuse site, laying off 1,200 workers and moving those operations to Asia and the South.
***************
Misetich

More US Jobs exported and/or lost. The continuous shenanigans of misinformation by the BLS and other government agencies to conceal the deterioration of the labor market in the US is a CRIME.

All On Board The Gold Bull Express
Belgian
@slingshot
Americans are NOT any dummer or smarter than anyone else !
And it is NOT a matter of people but rather a matter of systems, options, past and future.

Goldbugs, most probable correspond with the profile you allocated to them...but these *modern* goldbugs DO NOT BUY PHYSICAL GOLD !!!

One very funny thing struck me in the California business : Warren Buffet, the icon, the hero is campaigning/supporting the terminator fella and his vision on car taxes. Heros for heros as mothers for mothers ? Touching.

Back to my point and watch the steur fish . Doen't produce Beluga in captivity. Very understandable...as like Gold in an Unfree market.
Greetings to you, slingshot.

�/$ : 1,1750 > orderly or dis-orderly decline ?
Belgian
TYPOS all over....
...back to my garden pond (not point). Hope all the other typos do NOT create unnecessary confusion. Sorryyyyyy.
misetich
China's PM defends currency peg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3170088.stmSnip:

China's Premier Wen Jiabao has insisted that China will not be railroaded into revaluing its currency by pressure from its trading partners.

China's policy of keeping the yuan pegged at roughly 8.28 to the US dollar was "based on market demand and supply and is in line with China's reality," he said.

It showed "a high sense of responsibility towards the international community," he added, speaking in Bali ahead of a summit of the Association of South East Asian Nations (Asean).
..................
Mr Wen said China would seek an "appropriate" exchange rate "in the course of further economic reform".

Chinese regulators are worried that the banking system is not strong enough to cope with sudden adjustments to the exchange rate.

Mr Wen pointed out that China's exports amount to 5% of the world's total.
*************
Misetich

China has been in the "foreground" and limelight lately vis a vis Yuan currency peg.

If, Mr. Wen is correct (?!) and Chinese exports only amount to 5% of world total or thereabouts - an upwards revaluation would do little to change the US dilemma.

Fact is US has been focusing on IT infrastrure and service industry and debasing their manufacturing as corporations are guided by profits rather than nationalism

Blaming other countries such as China, is very politically accomodative

All On Board The Gold Bull Express

slingshot
Belgian
Yes, My Fellow Knight.
They will buy the paper gold. for that is what they are accustumed too.But my Friend as I am about to remove stitches from my most trusted friend Wally, who is a dog who has had surgury,he will not understand. if he bites me I will understand. for those who buy paper, I do not!
Slingshot------------<>
misetich
Act II: The Greatest Stock Market Mania Of All Time
http://www.cross-currents.net/charts.htmSnip:

Thus, we have a two edged sword; not only is margin exploding for the most speculative issues but the one area that can support the markets in a price correction - cash reserves - is rapidly dwindling.
....................
The Dow's seller/buyer ratio has now ballooned to 29,
implying a similar or worse d�neumont is now in store for stocks.
.......................
***************
Misetich

Bulls vs Bears are battling it out in stocks, bonds and gold markets. Heavy artillery poised on both sides -

Bulls are counting on US led global economic recovery and "don't fight the Fed" doctrine as the Feds are perceived as being in their corner

What makes Gold Bulls so powerful? What ammunition do they have in their arsenal?

...a powerful "slingshot"! TRUTH AND REALITY

All On Board The Gold Bull Express






slingshot
Belgian
Pulled about 6 of of 14 before a growl. Tomorrow will try again.
You have been kind in your responses to my questions, as most have in the past. But I have been here TWO YEARS with hardly a challenge. Hell, what do I think about any subject.
Sorry, I do not mean to pick on you specificly but the interaction between the Small Time Investor and the heavy hitters has been slim. I can make the same case as the lurkers remain lurkers, afraid to ask a question by posting.
I'm tired of giving a coin dealer report. Give the small investor a question to answer. You will find more questions than answers.
Slingshot------------<>

Have some rocks to throw?
Cometose
CHEAP GOLD : BYE BYE
Looks like the dollar is breaking up .....
Say goodbye to cheap gold.......looks like we may have a multi car(market) pile up this October.....
Enjoh the ride !!!!!!!!!!!!1
Belgian
@ Basil
Things are not as complicated as you might think : Once you accept/acknknowledges that OIL IS INCREASINGLY RULING THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS...most things become rather simple.

When so much power gets more and more concentrated into ONE thing like OIL...world players find it more and more difficult to balance their actions.

Here in Euroland, we are daily watching documentaries on everything related to oil matters (CIA-FBI-oil clans-Presidents-etc...) from the past 30 years up until 9/11. Amazing stuff !!!
Robert B. Baer (ex CIA secret operations) is extremely stimulating in provoking observers' thoughts on OIL and many oil related events !!!

Your question is suggesting that you would like to have the coming changes happening, NOW, all at once !? This is not the way things work out, Sir. There is A LOT of things that are in the process of evolving, all at the same time, but not necessary at the same speed or intensity.
We keep on watching all together, Yes !
Belgian
Re > slingshot
In posting my reflections on other's postings/ideas... I'm excersizing my insights and communicate these as to see them rebuffed or finetuned. That's what this FREE Gold forum is about, isn't it. I wish to learn and am happy that CPM is providing such an excellently/brilliantly managed platform for doing so. Lurkers do know, imo, that many of their questions will find an appropiate answerer, sooner or later. Amen.

N.Korea is excluding Japan from further talks/negociations !!! My interpretation : N.Korea is China's stick in the geopolitical power play. China and Japan still keep on hating each other. Japan is the US' poodle (sorry, ally). The East (Korea-Iran) wants to have an equal say in the balance of the world's powers by going nuclear. This against the background of Arabian oil and the growing manufacturing/industrial base in the East. This has repercussions on the currency wars and the dollar reserve in particular. Right or wrong analyses ?
slingshot
Belgian
Point well taken. You have much to offer and your presence is very much appreciated. Do you think my suggestion of a corporate conference call of Knights is can be accomplished?
Slingshot-----------------<>
Belgian
WALL STREET
Bob (Pisani) is already shouting for 3 days in a row that all the analyst do have it completely wrong...THEY UNDERESTIMATED ALL THE RESULTS !!! UNDERESTIMATED !!!
Elvis is still alive and Eastern will exceptionally fall on a monday this year.

The US$ is lettng the Japanese know THAT THEIR CURRENCY IS UNDERVALUED ...their currency, the Yen !
In other words : Japanese, decline your production and exports ...start buying instead of selling as your contribution to the globe's economical revival !!!-???
Any other thoughts on this Y/$-affair ? TIA.
Belgian
@slingshot
Sure, such a Knight gathering can be organized. Why not.
But is this a good thing ?
I prefer to read/study the naked messages without becoming attached to the person(s) who do produce these messages/comments/thoughts and insights. It is not important WHO says something, but rather WHAT he/she is saying. Playing the ball and not the person. But that's only my personal view.

@ misetech : Let us not attach too much importance on those Chinese (unreliable) figures. Jobs, manufacturing AND services are going eastwards and we (the west) remain with the verifyable facts of an increasing degree of unemployment and the blablablah (downplaying) that already for a long time, goes with it. In Euroland we are also starting to pay (political) "professors" for bringing such messages to the populace. Ongoing Infantilization and de-responsabilzation of the masses !!! Let it happen, Sir...let it happen...
Pizz
Random Thoughts
Belgian: Y/$ - If there is to be a currency crisis, or better yet a "paper" crisis, you can bet that it will not be the perceived fault of the $ or US. Politically I see no way Bush and the boys are going to be able to keep rates low, SM high and higher thru elections. Best let a bunch of excesses out of the system now, and try to get re-elected on the upswing or snap back. Japanese banks, from what I've read over the past few months are not going to be able to take a strongly higher yen/$. No one will mess with China, so Japan would appear to not have a seat in the ongoing round of musical chairs, IMHO.

Slingshot: Love to set up some type of verbal exchange on a regular basis, as long as you don't mind the company of a gold orientated, ex-bean counter, turned GM. Easy to set up.

Mr. G: Hope your real estate came out as well as mine - only cost me a couple years worth of wear and tear on my stomach lining during the process.

Rich: Movin' the silver stash has been the easy part, digging new holes has been the hard part. . .

Pizz

slingshot
Belgian
Is it a good thing? Oh, Belgian. How can one hide behind the words that have helped many in their journey to freedom? In this day and age when communcation is as simple as pressing a button, to receive messages around the world, would we deny our fellow goldbugs a chance to talk with the Sages of the gold Community. Is voice communication that distant from characters printed upon a forum. I have received pictures of others posters and the energy has been fantastic to say the least. A picture is worth a thousand words. Say hello to me on voice mail and I do not think I would speak for a half hour. In the tech age the world is becoming smaller.
Why not take advantage.
Slingshot--------------<>
slingshot
Sir Pizz
Thank you for stepping forward.

@ Gandalf, I give you permission to release my picture of me and my good friends to whoever request it from the forum.

Who is Slingshot? Not a pretty picture. You may take the liberty of a laugh or two.

Ladies and Knights of the Table Round. Let us not pass this opportunity to see our comrades before it is too late.





Slingshot-------------------<>
Subcomandante Tomas
The rightful price of gold
As I see it, in 1913 you could sell a suit for $21 and buy an ounce of gold. Today, you could sell a suit for $375 and buy an ounce of gold. But the supply of paper money has grown 14 times the supply of gold. Therefore, the price of gold should be $5250 per ounce. Please let me know if there's a flaw in this reasoning or the numbers used.
steady
still more on ecoism
ecosim
is barely alive but u know the govts are indirectly suppressing ecoism as some bankers wrongfully want there revenue streams to come from negative effects upon there sheep. which means there offspring start off in negativity and never understand the concept of positiviy. this is a fatal error in deminishing there ability to function independently of the system and they want that negative revenue stream rather than positive streams.
this difference is profound as one set of bankers wants to bleed there revenue streams into submission, and total dependency upon the state while other drivers want to see the revenue streams come from positve units of accounts ie heathy sheep that produce healthy poitvie self supportive sheep who can pass wealth down to there lambs, while maintaing the integrity of the system ecoism yearning to watch develop here on planet earth.
ecoisnm waits for the next big thing to launch it into human consciouness.
i wonder if ecoism came from uranus? yes there is gold on uranus! but the noxious gasses on uranus make it to stinky to mine at these prices!
Pizz
Good Reading
May have come up on the forum prior, and if it did I sure as heck missed it, but I just got thru reading "The Fourth Turning".

This book is a must read for anyone that would like a macro glimps of the future based upon social trends and cycles that sure appear to be etched in perverbial concrete. If this was required reading in school, gold would be in moderate 5 figures per ounce - easy.

Not an easy read, and I recommend fondling an ounce or two while being deeply engrossed in the last third of the book. You will have absolutely no doubt in your mind why you're in possession of some shiny, golden metal.

Pizz
cockerel1
Interesting Article from Mining Web.
http://www.mips1.net/mggold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B242256DB8005C79E7Why should government interfere with any operation in this manner? Does anyone have a viable explanation?
Pizz
erell
Money! Some governments do know that commodities (including PM's) are going to go in the opposite direction of fiat. Raise taxes on gold, which will limit supply, which will help force the price up, and tax revenues will eventually increase right along with the price of gold. Do you not think that governments are not going to get on the Gold Bull? Rest assured that the gold that is uneconomical to mine at the higher rates will very soon become very economical to mine. Looks like a positive to me. . .and as long as governments exist, we will have to pay some vigorish. .even us, sooner than you may think.

In contrast, California may try to raise taxes on an economy that is falling off a cliff, and this will do nothing but increase the problem.

Pizz

Basil
Pizz-re silver stashes
How safe are such "below grade" banks from remote flyover identification thru state of art equipment by gov't or other snoops who'd like to take it?
How affected by depth?

This issue of where/how to really store physical safely and discreetly needs airing imo.
steady
feedback sorely needed
does ecoism stand a chance? flame away! constructive criticizm welcom, destructive criticism welcome also. posting in a vacum (no feed back) sucks !
cockerel1
Pizz
It never ceases to amaze me!
The same mentality exists in every facet of commerce and I wonder why?

Any time the market looks good, TBTB try to take advantage by increasing taxes. Is the mentality so restricted, that they do not see that giving incentive to the market would increase the produtivity, thereby increasing their overall "tax take." By increasing the burden, they stand the chance of limiting the productivity and therefore losing out on the tax base. "Liberal" governments have been doing this for years, hence we have ever increasing taxes and debt, and ever decreasing productivity and unemployment.

The stupidity of these actions is something that even I understand.
Gonlyold
Seems They're At It Again
The Powers That Be will not let gold gain ground. Notice how the POG was wacked again. I believe that the name of the game is control. TPTB cannot let wealth, in this case gold, be uncontrolled.

Notice the rumors of taxing gold. That's no rumor. I believe that was an attempt to control gold and that "they" were testing the market for resistance. The play of course is if you don't pay your taxes, "they" have the authority to take your gold. If gold starts moving, I expect taxes and/or other controls to follow it.

GATT is really going to have to win big to break trough this. I also wonder whether the public will be advised of the court opinion or will it be sealed because of some preceived "world security".

Stay tuned to further "controlling" developments.
Rimh
Thanks CPM!
Just received my silver eagle as a first time participant in the last contest, and what a beauty it is! Thanks CPM!

On the tax issue, yes the government may very well do it because as was pointed out earlier, they are short-sighted and can't see the benefits of reducing taxes. How will we ever survive as a society when so very few of our leaders have such short term vision? If only there were a lot more like Ron Paul with some understanding and wisdom (scarce commodities in any gov't methinks).

Live small and hold gold.
VanRip
SE Asia Free Trade Zone by 2020
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031007/wl_nm/asia_asean_dc_8
Interesting news out of Bali. Worth a look. Should rattle a few cages. Looks as if these folks aren't fooling around. Not a word about gold or currencies. Wonder why they were not mentioned in the article.

(Snip)

BALI, Indonesia (Reuters) - Southeast Asian leaders Tuesday endorsed a plan to transform the region into a giant free trade zone by 2020, with several urging a faster pace if they are to keep up with the rest of the world.

---------------------------------------

"If we join forces, Korea and ASEAN members and by extension, all of East Asia, will become the engine of growth for the world economy, and the 21st century will be the age of East Asia," South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun told business leaders.
slingshot
Rimh
Recently, I have asked my Co-Workers.

What would it take for you to take up arms......

Taxes was at the bottom of the reasons.
Slingshot------------<>
CoBra(too)
It's Obvious!
The Us dollar is not allowed to tank according to its needs.

... and even that may be beside the point, as the US debt has long passed the point of no return.

The problem of a solely fiat based currency, being also the globe's reserve money is now glaringly becoming obsolete. As even the "retarded" 3'rd world appreciates, tie your currency to the dollar ... and you're ending up a pauper.

- And still, there is China - BTW, Wal Mart, or is it China Mart was the only stock touted on GE-CNBC today - not succumbing to the notion of taking less value for their labour ... by accepting still more confetti dollars ( courtesy of) the FED, backed by FRN's, and nothing of much substance else ... a hoot, or two!

So the real IQ may not be the genius, rather something below retarded levels around 70 - if we and the world arre lucky.

That still may be a best case scenario, as the potential of total anilihation of the dollar standard is becoming reality ... protect yourself ... and get as much gold as you can ... cb2
Pizz
Slingshot
What were the top three?

Pizz
slingshot
Pizz
Freedom Of Movement
Confiscation of Arms
Confiscation of property. (HOME)
Slingshot-----------------<>
slingshot
Pizz
Ok, Ok what were the rest Wage control.
Taxes

Simple but to the point.
Slingshot-----------------<>
Rimh
slingshot
Unfortunately they may not see that raising taxes is in essence a confiscation of property in a subtle "frog in heating water" way.

Indeed, even the first two items are being pulled out from under us by not-so-subtle means recently. At what point do your co-workers consider enough is enough?

Would they consider their own subtle attacks on big gov't by loading up on the cheap gold while the gov't is still holding the price down for them?

Just a thought....
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I have been watching for the results of the next series of Treasury auctions, but what is more interesting are the comments made by world monetary leaders. Even Duisenberg stepped into the fray today. He calls the US dollar fal "inevitable".
slingshot
Surge and Pullback
Sort of giving a sailor a heve-hoo.;0)

What constitutes a surge?
What constitutes a Pullback?

The days of the 10 cent surge and the twenty cent pullback are over. Is there a percentage of deflection from the established POG to even say Gold was flat if it remained within a channel? If Gold begins to whipsaw how would the pog be determined as a surge or Pullback.
Slingshot-----------------<>
slingshot
Rimh
From the bottom upTaxes. They are steady for the most part and the established tax rolls must be voted on.

Wages.Well the temperture rises. A standard or level pay across the board, depending on the skill level. Reguardless of location.

Confiscation of home or property. tell them they have to get out an see what happens.

Confiscation of arms. Ever look down the barrel of a .44 mag?

Freedom of Movement. Tolerable. Don't press it.

Slingshot==========<>
Belgian
@ commandante
Yes you can have a vey nice suit for one ounce of Gold. In fact you can get today even 10 times more of tangibles with one ounce, compared to decades ago. Simply because our currencies are way over-valued in comparaison with the currency values of those that are actually producing those tangibles.

What is more relevant for the determination of the right POG is total debt against total economic activity !
Our currencies are still surviving the obscenety of a global economy that is increasingly *DEBT DRIVEN* !!!
This is amazing and therefor we should keep on analysing WHY and HOW this remains possible. And for how long.

These old comparaisons of Gold's past and present purchasing power are done with in the background an UNFREE goldmarket ! Gold Valuations will be completely different when and if we get a FREE Goldmarket where ALL Gold will be marked to the (Free) market.

Bedtime for us overhere.
Rimh
slingshot
Within the context of the survey your co-workers are, of course, right. No debate there.

The issue of taxation was dealing with the effects on the mining industry of new taxes, specifically in South Africa. The same principle applies to individuals. In both cases excess taxes do more harm than good, but gov'ts usually don't see that. Accumulating gold is our best defense for wealth preservation regardless of the tax level. Those were the only points I was trying to make.

Gandalf the White
Thanks to those that saw the US$ slip through the FORMER LOW !
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0&v=iI was out scouting Hammerton and missed it !
Next stop is sub 0.86!!!
Buddy, can you lend me ANOTHER nickel ?
That equates to at LEAST $400. GOLD !
Ok, CABAL, lets see you play that old GAME on the US$ index.
<;-)

CoBra(too)
Don't cry for Argentina -
as California may get terminated ... @ MK - cb2
cockerel1
Accounting 101


When you find a goose that lays a golden egg, squeeze it, harrass it, make it more expensive to feed and reap the rewards!
Gene
Weights
Please tell me,"how many grams in a troy (gold) ounce? TIA
MK
Black Blade....Duisenberg Comments
It was interesting to me that Duisenberg did not raise the question on the dollar as strong or weak, but instead whether the fall would be gradual (contained) or disastrous. Had the pleasure of talking with Bill Murphy today -- as we touch base once in awhile. I was struck with his comment that in his many discussions, addresses, meetings etc, he always asks 'precisely what are the components of the strong dollar policy.' He says he gets a lot of talk but not much in the way of a real definition. I remarked that their was a strong dollar policy but that it emanated not from the Beltway but downtown Tokyo..............


CB, Rimh, WAC.....Caleefornia could default on substantial debt.....just like Argentina defaulted on substantial debt. California cannot print money and not even the Terminator can alter that de jure fact of life. Will the people line up at the at the door of the bank to withdraw their savings? Will they be told their savings are frozen (as they were in Argentina)? I hope not, but defaults are not pretty -- the cascading effect a reality not to be taken casually. We have had strong business from California over the past six months. I don't think its an accident.
TownCrier
Gene
troy oz ~ 31.103 grams

R.
cockerel1
Interesting article! How true!
(I assume this article can be aimed at the U.S. as well as some other societies.)


Canada in the Near Future Part V

A rude awakening ahead for our youth



by Philippe B�rub�



"The foundation of every state is the education of its youth." � Diogenes



"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." � Friedrich Nietzsche



For the past three months many similarities have been noted on bear market analysis web sites between the economic situation prevailing in the summers of 1929, 1987 and 2003 (such as a collapse of the U.S. bond market). Today I wish to address a major difference between those three summers that could worsen the consequences of the impending North American stock market crash. The issue in question is young people's easy access to credit and their nonchalant attitude towards credit and money.


In the province of Quebec alone, Statistics Canada estimates show that teenagers spend around $2 billion CDN in a year and influence their parents into spending an additional $ 4 billion CDN of household incomes. Across Canada, the actual purchasing power of our 2,5 million teenagers is estimated at $30 billion CDN. Across the nation, we are seeing richer teenagers working shorter hours for a greater amount of money, inside or outside the household. The fact that most teenagers have more money to spend is, by itself, no reason for alarm, but the fact that most of what they spend comes from personal or parental credit surely is.



We can foresee that teenagers and most people of my generation (the twenty some things) will be struck by more severe hardship than the depression that caught their great-grandparents by surprise in the early 1930s. Warning signs for this potential economic disaster can be seen in the commercials aired by the Quebec-based credit unions (Desjardins). Not so long ago, Desjardins was seen as the last remaining promoter of thrift and economy in youth. They are currently encouraging students and teenagers to spend without limits by mailing them coupons to spend in various stores/businesses and offering credit/debit cards to younger audiences each passing year. The constant increase in average credit card debt among students and teenagers is cause for major concern, since it becomes obvious that parents and grandparents will be in no position to help, having amassed great personal debt of their own.



Thrift as a virtue is harder to promote in this country. In many Canadian provinces, both schools and parents are not comfortable to discuss money matters with students. And who filled this void during the last decade? You are right if you guessed banks and major private corporations. These institutions were rather anxious to see teens spend more, on credit if possible. In fact, the Canadian Bankers� Association and Visa Canada are the current largest sponsors of personal finance seminars in our high schools. Too bad they are not shelling out tips on short-selling the stock markets and investing in precious metals. Our teens could eventually help their parents become sound investors, instead of becoming financial casualties themselves.





In 1989, 51% of Canadians aged 15 to 19 held a part-time job. In 2000, only 43% of the same age group did. Were parents of teenagers in the year 2000:



A. Working harder to provide spending money for their kids, or

B. Were simply borrowing more money to pay for their kids� allowances?



Those who answered "B" are correct. This "already borrowing" group of teenagers become even heavier borrowers when the enter university. After completion of a first degree, a student will have accumulated (on average) $21,000 CDN in student debt. Many baby-boomers have told me over the years that this sum was the equivalent of the average $5,000 - $8,000 CDN student debt burden of the sixties. To this observation, I always reply that such loans were often co-signed by parents at a bank and that annual tuition fee hikes were much less dramatic 20 or 30 years ago*. Today, student loans are a fact of life and costs related to post secondary education are well above any savings accumulated during high school.



Another disturbing trend in universities is the growing credit card debt of students. Families who already deal with excessive debt are unwilling to co-sign for a student bank loan, as they know that getting a $40,000 a year job in your chosen field immediately after finishing university or high school is unrealistic**. The "boomers" probably share the blame for influencing my generation into easy borrowing at high interest rate, which is what credit cards offer. Easy money is difficult to refuse, especially at a young age. Reckless behaviour by elders must be emulated as soon as possible in this fast-paced bubble economy.



As mentioned earlier, the fact that a majority of parents don't even discuss the virtues of saving with their children is of concern, but not surprising. Sound money advice from seasoned bear market commentators like Richard Russell and Robert Gordon (i.e. people who actually discuss the lessons learned from the past major recessions) is accessible to a lot less than 1% of the population. Sadly, even mainstream books on the "lessons of history" such as "The Great Crash of 1929" by John Kenneth Galbraith are kept out of the curriculum of those who need it the most, the young adults of today.



As the current bear market rally suckers more and more investors to the stock markets I can't help to wonder what will happen to all my friends who have large student debts. What will they think once 50, 70 or 90% of their meagre savings goes up in smoke? My hope is that all these disgruntled youths will quickly learn to appreciate the value of sound money alternatives and that one day, they will be able to support our aging population with savings that are not created out of thin air.



Philippe B�rub�, M.A. Political Science, Ottawa, Canada




Comment: In the last paragraph, the author recognizes the selfishness of the "Baby Boomer" generation and expects it to become an inherant part of life. This is very unfortunate, IMO.




Cavan Man
Location. Location. Location.
Economic superpower rises in the east

Leaders plan world's largest free trade zone

John Aglionby in Jakarta
Wednesday October 8, 2003
The Guardian

Ten south-east Asian nations yesterday signed a landmark accord to turn their vastly disparate states into an integrated, tariff-free trading and economic community by 2020 that would resemble the early embodiment of the European Union.
At a summit on the Indonesian resort island of Bali, the Association of South-East Asian Nations also agreed to complete deals with China, India and Japan by 2012. The pact with Beijing would create by far the world's largest free trade zone.

Cavan Man
March of Folly Chronicles
Ankara appeases US by agreeing to deploy troops

Owen Bowcott and Michael Howard in Irbil
Wednesday October 8, 2003
The Guardian

Turkey voted yesterday to send troops to Iraq but several leaders on the US-appointed governing council in Baghdad signalled their opposition to military forces from neighbouring states.

CM comment: This won't play in Kirkuk. Last time the Turks visited Iraq they stayed for a LONG TIME.
Cavan Man
SA Mining shares a question?
Governments can impact AU shares (believe it!)Royalty pilloried, wipes out 20m oz gold

JOHANNESBURG � The South African government's proposed royalty to be levied on the country's mining companies in 2008 could render as many as 19.2 million ounces of gold uneconomic to mine.
Webber Wentzel Bowens (WWB), one of South Africa's leading law firms, said in a stinging nine-page critique of the proposed new legislation, that the three percent revenue royalty expected to be levied on gold producers, would force mining companies to raise the average cut-off grade of the country's gold industry from 4g/t to 4.2g/t. (The figure was provided by the Chamber of Mines)

"This means that the economically recoverable reserve base would have decreased by about 3.7 percent from 16,250 tonnes to about 15,650 tonnes. In other words, some 600 tonnes of gold would have effectively been sterilized by an introduction of a three percent royalty on gross turnover," said the firm's regulatory law unit, which is headed by mineral law guru and ex-provincial councillor for the Democratic Party, Peter Leon.



Kilo
Weight
31.1033 grams to the troy (gold) ounce.......
Druid
Two Days....
and counting. A peachy delight. Are we still on plan?
Federal_Reserves
Stock Crash Coming?
Conditions are ideal.

Months of sideways trading on the SnP with lots of overhead distribution. As far back as June, the SnP was trading about 1015. Just last Tuesday the SnP was trading under 1000!

Dollar looking like its ready to break below 90.

The CRB looking to make new highs, with crude over $30, and it could go a lot higher.

Remember the last trade on a stock sets the price.



DummyANI
New dollar paper moneys
Please tell me,�@�gNew dollar paper moneys were already issued in USA ? If not, when they will be issued ? �h
Gandalf the White
Sir DummyANI -- Please see the following post ! <;-)
Druid (10/07/03; 21:30:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 110007)
ski
Has the silver fuse been lit??
Link cannot be given per forum rules..
Within the latest Ted Butler essay dated 10-7-03, and titled "Don't close the COMEX," is an excerpt from a letter from Eliot Spitzer. (NY attorney)

From Mr. Spitzer to Mr. Butler....

"In addition, thank you for making me aware of your concerns regarding price manipulation in the COMEX silver market. I have forwarded your correspondence to the appropriate members of my staff."

...............................

Ski's comment: IMHO the first attorney to expose these dealings will become an overnight public superstar.
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
@SKI - Superstar Attorney
Superstar? I don't know. More likely he will develop a sudden tendency to commit an "apparent" suicide. There seems to be quite a lot of precedence of this kind of behaviour lately, especially with aspiring superstars.
Black Blade
Gols - What Is Gold? Money? Insurance? A Rare Metal? Investment?

This is an interesting debate. I have thought about this subject for quite some time. I have about 35% of my portfolio in physical Gold and Silver and it would have perhaps been a bit more, however, my paper investments have done quite well. I do know that this is not anywhere close to the norm in today's investment environment. Gold mining shares tend to front run physical Gold prices. Since the POG has not kept up with the frenzied pace of the mining shares, it would stand to reason the price of physical Gold should move much higher. In other words, this Gold Bull has a long way to run.

I view my physical Gold as a hard physical "insurance" asset that I will carry through thick and thin. It is after all the ultimate insurance that has no claim on it by outside forces. I think back to those people through history who had to bribe the border guards to seek a new life of freedom outside nazi/communist domination (essentially the same thin), those who brought their way out of a one way ticket to Auschwitz, Triblinka, Buchenwald, or some Gulag in Siberia, those who watched their life savings vaporize in the Weimar Republic, to escape Vietnam in 1975, those who had Gold during the LatAm (Brazil, Mexico, etc.) currency blowup, those who survived the Asian Contagion with their savings intact, those who are now suffering in Argentina, and those who will suffer in Japan. Gold is the ultimate insurance, it is anonymous and it can be passed along without outside consideration.

Paper assets are for the here and now. Stock is simply nothing more than a "deed" of partial ownership if you will. You and many others have a right to a piece of a company with each share of stock. Stock is only worth what others are willing to pay for it. Stock investing is a speculative game and should not be played with cash that is needed for survival. In short it is a bet on the future direction of a company and the underlying asset. Of course bonds are dependent on the quality of debt by the issuer. Some even tout US government bonds as a safe haven investment. However, not long ago Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan stated before the Senate Banking Committee that Gold was the "ultimate currency". He did not mention stocks or bonds � he specifically mentioned Gold.

There are also other hard assets such as gemstones and real estate. If you are not an expert in gemstones � stay away! If you are not an expert in the four C's (Cut, Clarity, Color, and Carat) - stay away from diamonds. These are fields best suited for experts in that field and I have seen many people taken for a lot of money for substandard gemstones. It is also very easy for the uninitiated to be taken to the cleaners. It is true that one could hold several million dollars worth of diamonds in the palm of their hand, but again this is not for the majority of people. I have been fortunate enough to know some people in the gem business and was able to obtain a nice selection of rubies, sapphires, zircon, emeralds, opals, etc. However, these are more of a curiosity as specimen samples and not as easily utilized as something identifiable and tradable as Physical Gold during times of crisis!

Real estate is a very good asset to have as well. Though I do not have ownership of a physical residence (due to the nature of my work), one could do well to have real estate fully paid for (and the ability to keep it having the funds for taxes and insurance). OK, I do have some land in the high country. The one downside of real estate is that you cannot transport real estate as easy as Gold. If one were to need to relocate in a hurry, it is easy to grab a stash of Gold and move on. Gold is also easily hidden and is generally undetectable. There usually is no paper trail. I would always suggest outright ownership. Even without a mortgage and with deed in hand, one is still just renting land/property from the local government. I consider property taxes a form of rent (just stop paying those property taxes and see how long you really "own it"). No taxes need be paid on Gold ownership.

I was fortunate enough to make several Gold purchases from miners in Nevada over the last few years willing to part with their precious metals as I sold my services to the Gold mines and I would let it be known that I would purchase all PM awards for attendance and safety � now I am glad I did as I bought bullion well below $300 an ounce for gold and $4.50 an ounce for silver. Many of the Gold mining companies typically give out Gold and Silver medallions as safety and attendance awards. Fortunately some miners would sell me their Gold and Silver awards for beer money (I would venture a guess probably before the wives found out). I have many one ounce medallions, half ounce medallions, and various sizes of JM wafers from Barrick, Placer Dome, Echo Bay, Minorco, Sterling Mine, etc. Since then I have made purchases of Gold, Silver, and Platinum bullion (yes even from USAGOLD).

I watch world events unfold with threats of war in Central Asia, violence in the Middle East, the possibility of much more terrorist activity worldwide, a horrific weakening of the US Dollar �in fact all currencies in a "Currency War of epic proportions as nations struggle for a ever smaller consumer base willing to spend, the deepening Global Recession, corporate scandals galore along with "perp walks" before armies of media camera men/women, phoney baloney Arthur Andersen style accounting, complete loss of confidence in Wall Street, Argentine and Japanese banking crises, one looming energy crisis after another, government squabbling and corruption at all levels, etc. If any one of these threats come into full view, I will feel a bit easier knowing that I have physical Gold on hand. In short - I have my investment portfolio very well " insured".

Hey, who knows, I just may have to bribe a border guard or two sometime in the future.

- Black Blade
melda laure
(No Subject)
Gonlyold, BasilAre they at it again? That's good.
Whaddaya mean the price went up! They cant do that, I just got a fresh wad of fiat!

Last fridays fit was different. Go back and read the forum posts. It was almost a carnival atmosphere. Personally I laughed all the way to the shop. At the end of the day the ESF and banks split a couple hundred million of electronic credits between them. And the rest of us can actually measure somet real, heavy, metallic, yellow progress. Visions of professor smith from Lost in Space. "Oh, the pain! the pain!" Let me weep copious crocodile tears.

Tax gold?

The problem is, (as when Lincoln freed the slaves in confederate jurisdiction) the gold they need to tax is in Mrs Watanabe's purse. Games like that will (in the end, if not the beginning) scare all the buying out of the US and send it elsewhere. The only people who will listen to that stuff are the proto-gold bug set, those who haven't put their toes in the water yet. The real buyers aren't so easily intimidated. In the end, public policy has to be geared towards increased domestic demand for gold to bring in more metal to the country; a gold tax is lunacy- but then we are talking about the government.

Basil, storage...

Well the obvious detection is a metal detector. I might point out the obvious with out being specific. Imagine your house were all built of steel. A metal detector would be pointless, no? The other thing of note, is X-ray diffraction, a new technique that can be used in drive by mode. But even this technique cant pick out the coins from the image if surrounded by a collection of jumbled metal objects.

The last is chemical tests. Unfortunately, a lot of people wear gold rings, so trace amounts of gold are typically found everywhere, though you may want to stop your daily treasure bath, and put away your golden spoon. (then again maybe that would be a good cover/excuse)

I will leave off gamma ray detection since if they are close enough to use a gamma spectrometer they can already see your stash. Though, the use of trace amounts of gold leaf foil in the paint you paint the house with would really drive the equipment nuts; unfortunately, like the diodes strewn in the mortar at the US embassy in russia, such a technique would really look suspicious, unless it were a tasteful decorative treatment.

Burying things deep has always been popular. It is not always discreet nor is it convenient in a quick get-a-way. Ask Gondolin about the time he had to get out of town with a couple thousand orcs on his heels. Fortunately, he had a couple rounds stuffed in his sword-hilt. In death and life, it is usually, "come as you are" death speeches are the stuff of song and legend, and the occasional dying poet.

And now news from the Brass (10Kt) State:

At 7pm I checked the local (mostly LA) tv stations. There was no election coverage. Then I foolishly checked the cable/national news stations.... baw! Daro! YERCH! I would like to appologise to the rest of the world for ruining the evening news with our soap opera. What has this to do with gold? Just this: look not to the TV news when you desire to learn the important matters of our times, gold included, they're much too busy preening.
Black Blade
Weak or Strong Dollar/Euro Currencies? � No The Printing Press is far too active With Plenty of Paper and Ink � Gold and Platinum is Very Rare and comes from Blood, Sweat and Tears (Back Breaking Work)

An interesting question. As I understand it � a strong dollar is when few dollars are available making it more desirable as a reserve currency while a weak dollar is a currency that is so abundant that there is more available than can be absorbed efficiently. The Federal Reserve is printing more dollars than ever before in history I order to spark inflation (or reflation � choose your favorite term). The "currency war" is raging between the major trading blocks for a weaker currency in order to have a competitive edge for a shrinking global consumer base. Quite ironic isn't it? We want a weak dollar for our US based manufacturers can compete against a weak Yen and a weak Euro. How can I end? � Very badly I think.

As more paper currencies are created out of thin air based on "faith and credit" according to the US government whatever the hell that means. People are losing faith in the dollar and there is no credit as the US is in technical default � that is bankruptcy as the "is legal tender for all debts public and private" though these debts tat the US is responsible for are unsustainable and will never ever be paid off. All these statements are in quotes on every Federal Reserve Note. It is obvious why on the reverse side of the Federal Reserve Note it states "In God We Trust". Certainly we cannot ever trust the government as these sociopaths who run the government such statements are meaningless. It's far from over too. The Japanese just raised the debt ceiling limit by $200 billion for the express purpose to keep buying US debt and selling Yen. Keep an eye out for the following Treasury Auctions this week. In the last few months Japan has bought well over another $100 billion of US debt � is that fear or just mere survival for a nation without natural resources that must buy raw material abroad to assemble in Japan to make trinkets fir sale abroad? In China the Yuan is pegged to the dollar at a ridiculously low rate with 1.3 billion willing low wageworkers. In Euroland? Oh my, Euroland! ECB president Duisenberg must be one very happy retiree right about now. They may be able to trade among each other for a time but eventually it will catch up to them as well as they too are in competition with the Far East.

The rumors are flying in some circles though few want to come right out and say it. But the Peoples Bank of China is very secretive. The rumors for the last few years has been that the major buyer of the BoE gold auction was China through an LBMA proxy buyer and mush of the Swiss gold sales has headed east as well. After all, how much US and EU debt are they really going to hold and for how long? They like Japan are so top-heavy in this debt they are quietly buying gold and platinum. China has/had a deal with Harmony Gold for a portion of their gold production and presumably with other producers as well. Another question is how much more paper gold they hold. Yesterday we learned that there was a lot of physical buying in Singapore, Thailand, Japan, and even in the Middle East. The wealth of gold and platinum is heading out from west to east. Who can blame them? The current account deficit has to go somewhere � but dollars and euros? With US and Euro inflation sweeping over the horizon like the hoards of Genghis Kahn the new Great Wall of China this time may be made of Gold and Platinum. Unfortunately for Japan it may be much too late. But what to do with all this US debt except keep buying more to have a weak Yen for a slight competitive edge in the global export market. Other Asian banks that have acknowledged buying gold or have been rumored to be buying gold are the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, and Malaysia. While Wall Streeters dismiss gold, silver, and platinum, these bankers have been ready and willing to relieve the western bankers in exchange for hard assets.

In the end, the US will have a weaker dollar, Euroland will have a weaker Euro, Japan will have pretty wall paper � worthless but "pretty", and the other Asian currencies will have strong currencies with growing hard assets with growing gold and platinum reserves to back up strengthening currencies. This brings home another point � why now does the Chinese government encourage its citizens to buy gold while western governments , especially Wall Street, attempt to discourage westerners from buying gold,? When it becomes available in currency outlets in China the shelves are quickly stripped bare and there are waiting lists for people wanting to exchange currency for gold and platinum. I think the reason is quite clear. Gold is rare and limited � therefore a very strong currency. The same with dollars � strong when in limited supply but weak when in excess supply like now. In the current "competitive currency devaluation" the dollar/euro weakness will become much more evident while the currency of gold strengths.

- Black Blade
Belgian
@cockerell - Cavan Man
*Regulations* on goldmining : Any goldmine, anywhere in the world is mining Gold that is priced (not valued) in that same dollar-currency. In other words, they are mining dollar-confetti through the Gold-intermediaire !!!
Goldminers don't dig for Gold Wealth... BUT FOR DOLLARS !

All these mines remain profitable for as long as the currency of their mining-costs remains lower than the dollar (not the Gold) that they are mining !!!

The South African rand against the dollar is the one and only factor that decides on how much Gold can be mined profitably. Can you imagine what the Gold bonanzas are in other African (Russian-Chinese-many other places) Gold regions, where the local currency is worth less than the paper it is printed on !? Thousands of tonnes of Gold are being (have been) "plundered" from so many places where people (miners) still live in the stone era.

Ford Belgium will move its factories to Turkey. The cars will be produced at a fraction (!!!) of their Belgian cost and Ford will cash "all" the "profits" that lay between the turkish lira and euro or other strong (?) currency. Thousands of redundant workers will be "re-cycled" into a service-industry. Whatever this notion of service-industry might mean, today.

The above "unbalance" or better "exploitation" is of all times and places. It is purely currency-system related. Emphasis on "system" ! The "wealth" goes to those who have the power to impose that system on others who are and remain powerless.

It is because of the very existance (survival) of such currency systems that taxes can be collected without protest. A currency is depreciated as to initiate economic activity and once things are rolling, taxes take away the prosperity that was started. But this revolving system can only keep on rolling with more debt. Five new debt-dollars must be introduced into the system for having it advanced with only one of that same debt-dollar.

It is very understandable that nobody even dares to think about the possibility that the planet's dollar-DEBT-system would, could possibly collapse ! That's WHY nobody, repeat NOBODY, gives one nanosecond of attention to the ECB's "mark to market" principle of its goldreserves !
So be it. Amen
DummyANI
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 11 27,754�c plus0512 �c 381.1(Dec.2003)
Sep. 12 27,810�c plus0056 �c 380.8
Sep. 15 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....376.9
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 03 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7
Oct. 06 53,796�c plus15038�c...370.0
Oct. 07 58,706�c plus4910�c...373.3
Oct. 08 64,629�c plus5923�c...377.8

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
silvercollector
Dollar hurting & California smurking
Dollar flirting with support at 91.79 & Arnold is the new man.

Things are getting beyond bizarre.
Belgian
@ ALL....
After some hesitation, I would like to recommand the reading/study of Alex Wallenwein's article at the neighbours ! Brilliant, ...Outstanding piece of updated, modern GOLD-Education !!! So very simple and true. THE essence of Gold, understandable for each and everyone.
Happy reading to all.
goldengal
@BlackBlade
Excellent post #10015..imho you are right on the button.
steady
abortion
the ecoism embreo has been aborted!
latter and good bye!
Caradoc
Black Blade's msg#: 110015
Magnificent post!! This post belongs in the Hall of Fame. Future historians will owe a debt to this forum for distilling the "best of the best" and putting it all in one place. Message 110015 qualifies as documenting what was knowable back in October of 2003 when the world had begun a major change while most remained ignorant of what was happening around them.

Thank you, Black Blade!

Caradoc
The CoinGuy
Russia Looking to Price Oil in Euros
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031008/energy_russia_euro_1.htmlYEKATERINBURG, Russia, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Russia is increasingly looking at pricing oil sales in euros instead of dollars, reflecting the euro's growing role as a reserve currency, German government sources said on Wednesday.

Comment: None really needed, just another step on the trail.

Better Get your physical while it's still affordable,

The (physical) CoinGuy
The CoinGuy
Russian Oil Story
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031008/energy_russia_euro_2.htmlWell that was the quickest rewrite I have ever seen.

snippit:

Reuters
Russia official-"can't confirm" euro oil price plan
Wednesday October 8, 11:02 am ET


MOSCOW, Oct 8 (Reuters) - A Russian Energy Ministry official said on Wednesday he could not confirm a report that the government was considering proposals to price oil deals in euros instead of dollars.


Can't confirm eh? I'm just waiting for official denial, to confirm this for myself. Glad I kept the original story in it's entirety.

The CoinGuy
Gandalf the White
That "STRONG" US$ sure looks "weak" to the Hobbits !
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0Dive Dollar, Dive!
I wonder why the Japanese think that they can buy enough to save the Yen ?
Should not they also be buying PHYSICAL gold, like Mrs. Yamamoto (and Mrs. ANI)!
<;-)
Gene
TownCrier
Thanks. I have always been confused in comparing
troy to averdupoise(sp).
Renny
Nobel prize?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031008/ts_nm/nobel_economics_dc_4snippet:

"Investors and financial institutions need forward-looking
evaluation -- forecasts -- of volatility during the next
day, week or year. Robert Engle formulated a model which
allows such evaluations," the Academy said.

silvercollector
Renny
I just saw that story as well. Headline News describes it as "American and Briton win Nobel prize for economics".

Isn't that a hoot!
Pizz
MK
Your California - Argentina comparison regarding bond defaults got me thinking.

As I recall, weren't there claims that the well to do and the corporations had the ability (knowledge and connections???) to get their money out of the country before the collapse?

Not only do we hear everyday about the wealthy and companies moving out of California, what about all the jobs and companies bailing out of the US.

I venture to think that sometime in the not so distant future, there are going to be quite a few millions within this country that are going to be just a bit upset that the rich and the corporations got out while the dollar was still fairly strong or were able to buy gold as cheap as it is right now.

While the whole country is focused upon the unemployment rate and the fact that a few million jobs have gone overseas, I'm just a bit worried that the amount of capital that has left and is still leaving under the guise of a desperate administration and their Enron style statistics.

Right now I can think of a lot more reasons to move money off shore than invest capital within the US.

As we spiral down, the next step for government will be to regroup and retrench. I feel that they will shortly pull support from the stock market in a last ditch attempt to save the bond market and keep interest rates from spiking. I don't think there's enough capital left, or enough coming in to keep all the bubbles floating. I'd venture to say there may not be enough for any type of soft landing either.

Hard to keep perspective when you're in the middle of the action. . . Could this be a headline in the not so distant future???

"Government Rigged the Numbers While the Rich Bailed Out"


Gold lookin' better and better. . .

Pizz

cockerel1
Is this a case of "The blind leading the blind?"
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031007/financial_accounting_thinktank_3.html

Reuters
3 big U.S. companies finance accounting think tank
Tuesday October 7, 11:58 pm ET


NEW YORK, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Three of the country's largest companies are funding an academic center to improve standards for accounting and stock research, hot button issues that have dogged all of corporate America.



Columbia University's business school launched the center with grants from investment bank Morgan Stanley (NYSE:MWD - News), International Business Machines Corp. (NYSE:IBM - News) and General Electric Co's (NYSE:GE - News) GE Foundation.

The Center for Excellence in Accounting and Security Analysis, being chaired by former U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (News - Websites) Chairman Arthur Levitt, will examine some of the same corporate governance and accounting concerns that GE, IBM and Morgan Stanley themselves have been touched by.

"We will follow the basic concepts of independent academic endeavors," Stephen Penman, an accounting professor at Columbia and co-director of the center, told Reuters.

The plan is to "identify who in the world are the best minds in these areas, assemble them into a project team and thrash it out."

Trevor Harris, who heads Morgan Stanley's global valuation and accounting team for equity research, will also co-direct the center.

Members of the advisory board include Sallie Krawcheck, chief executive of Citigroup's (NYSE:C - News) Smith Barney unit; John Biggs, former chief executive of pension manager TIAA-CREF; and Phil Ameen, GE's controller.

Dozens of companies have been probed for accounting practices and face allegations of securities fraud during the last two years .

Some of the highest profile scandals have involved false accounting charges at energy trader Enron Corp. (Other OTC:ENRNQ.PK - News), telecommunications company Worldcom Inc. (Other OTC:WCOEQ.PK - News), cable television provider Adelphia Communications Corp. (Other OTC:ADELQ.PK - News) and others.

Morgan Stanley was one of 10 investment banks that signed a $1.4 billion settlement with securities regulators over allegations that research was tainted to help win investment banking business from corporate clients.

Chief Executive Philip Purcell was forced to apologize to SEC Chairman William Donaldson for remarks reported in the New York Times that made light of the research settlement.

Also, some of IBM's accounting practices have come under scrutiny. In June, the company said that the SEC had begun a formal investigation of how it accounted for some revenue in 2000 and 2001.

When asked if there would be a conflict if the findings of the center went against the commercial interests of the center's founding financers, Penman said, "That is not a concern."

"As with the funding of any academic center in a university, the independence is maintained. It could be that the center's project teams may reach conclusions that are not consistent with their interests."

He declined to say how much IBM, GE and Morgan Stanley contributed to get the center started.





USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
Buy bullion at 1% over our cost, free shipping on 25 oz.
Paper Avalanche
Quid Pro Quo, Clarisse.......
To quote Hannibal the cannibal.

Note that this morning Russia announces (and then immediately retracts) their desire to price oil in Euro per Yahoo news.

Then this afternoon, by what can only be described as a miraculous coincidence, Bloomberg announces that Moodys has upgarded the debt rating for Russia's national debt.

Coincidence?

Doubt it.

Quid Pro Quo, Clarisse....

What will it cost next time to keep Russia from formalizing the Euro as the successor international oil currency?

Stay tuned.

Paper Avalanche
Subcomandante Tomas
@Belgian on the rightful price of gold
Thanks Belgian for your response yesterday.

I'd be curious to hear what you and others think is the rightful price of gold and how one might calculate it.

@steady: I didn't get the whole ecoism thing.
Federal_Reserves
Mortgage Applications down 38% YOY
WASHINGTON, D.C. (October 8, 2003)-- The Mortgage Bankers Association of America (MBA) today released its Weekly Mortgage Applications Survey for the week ending October 3. The Market Composite Index of mortgage loan applications�a measure of mortgage loan applications for purchases and refinancings�increased by 15.6 percent to 817.3 percent on a seasonally adjusted basis from 707.2 one week earlier. On an unadjusted basis, the Index increased by 15.7 percent compared with last week and was down 38.5 percent compared with the same week one year earlier.


Rimh
cockerell - accounting think tank
Thanks for posting the article! That's what I love about this forum - lots of useful and interesting reading that I would never find on my own.

I'm a bit cynical on this one because how biased is the information coming out of a group like this going to be? Are the Big 3 who support it going to actually take their advice? I suspect they will only take the advice that does not significantly affect the bottom line. It is probably more an attempt to show the public some effort to improve the system, some "window dressing".

The companies involved in the accounting fraud and biased research knew exactly what they were doing, that it was ethically wrong and yet proceeded to do it. What is some "think tank" going to do to change that? And since the regulators are unwilling to discipline those who do it, other than a slap on the wrist, companies will do it again.

MK - What can Arne' do? Will he have the courage to make the tough decisions that will surely have some fallout with the populace, but in the end get California back on its feet? Will the "Oracle of Omaha" have the solutions? While I admire Mr. Buffet's tremendous business sense, I wonder if Arnold will be able to stand up to the flack that he will receive when Buffet's recommended changes start to take place as most folks are resistant to changes, especially financial ones. It will be a long uphill battle for those two at best. While I think Arnold may be better than the alternative (ol' what's his name), it will interesting to see how the rookie politician and the oracle fare over the next year or so.

Pizz - good point. Will Arnold be able to convince business leaders and the rich to come back to California? Jobs and capital that are already offshore will not likely return for a long time either. Time will tell....
Renny
silvercollector
Yes, that is a hoot. It had me puzzled. If this work they
did was so good, why are things in such a mess today?
Somebody missed the (gold) boat somewhere.

renny
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
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Gondolin
Belgian, Gold in other currencies
Belgian, I enjoy all your posts as with many others,and try to make a point of reading every post on a daily basis. Hope that conveys how valuable I consider the input and contributions of all (yess, you too Sssmeagol!!)

A topic I have seen discussed previously at the table, but upon which I would appreciate any comments or associated links.

While the POG in US dollars is certainly appreciating and Gold is displaying all the characteristics of being in a Bull Market, many have noted that the same cannot be said for the POG when measured in other currencies as they appreciate against the greenback, notably the AUD, NZD,CAD, Rand and obviously the euro.

Can anyone foresee when this will change? Guess thats the million dollar question.

Belgian, I know you have discussed this in detail previously, and thanks also for the recommendation today to the link from Wallenwein, who was inciteful as ever.

His comments about the perception of the value of gold vs the value of paper:

snip

'Gold is the mountain. Fiat-money is the hiker.

Those of us who are writing about gold should form a "cartel" of our own. We should "conspire" to speak the truth, and no longer refer to a "rising gold price" or a falling gold price" - but only to a rise or fall of paper money. How would that change people's perceptions?'

end snip

This comment which follows wonderfully along the whole premise of the Gold Trail almost answers my question that I posed. Perhaps that comment should be awarded a position of honour somewhere??

However, rambling on, and sounding to myself somewhat having taken a step backward in my grasp of economics following my grasp of the big picture with my last comment, I can not quite get my head around why the dollar, albeit the Reserve Currency, so unfairly dominates the value of gold in other currencies. If I am purchasing in AUD or GBP, even though they are appreciating against the USD, surely provided POG is appreciating at the same or a greater rate than the dollar is depreciating,Gold is still worth more in the long run when I measure its value in AUD or GBP.

Is this linked somehow to the valuation of the POG to the greenback at $42.222, which is a concept I still fail to quite grasp when POG is $375.00.

Belgian, I suspect /feel another description of the properties of the measured to the market POG inherent in the euro coming here?

Is this, as Another, FOA and yourself have so convincingly evoked, the key to the issue I have somehow tried to pen here?

Any comments welcome.
Belgian
@comandante
About your, mine and our question-guess about Gold's probable price in the future. We are all repeatedly asking the wrong question ! We better shouldn't worry about Gold's "VALUE" that is eternal and ask in what currency Gold will be priced and what will be the value of that currency in quantity of Gold.

Simplier : How much Gold will we get per dollar or euro ?
(reread Alex Wallenwein-GE)

My answer : We will get less and less of Gold for a constant depreciating dollar. Today we receive 1 ounce of Gold for 375 dollars and the same ounce of Gold for 315 euro. What does this say about those two currencies (dollar and euro) and what does this say about the value of that same ounce of Gold !?

Answer : Gold remains the same valuable that it has always (5,000 years) been and it is the currencies that are depreciating ($) or appreciating (euro and other)!

Since the US is still officially pricing its goldreserves at 42$/ounce and Gold on the market demands 375$/Oz,...we have a confusing problem here about the valuation of the dollar against Gold. This problem will remain in existance for as long as the gold market remains Unfree.

In this Unfree Gold market, the precious yellow is NOT allowed to value-price the currencies !!!
How can we possibly expect from UNfree Gold that it is going to put a price on the dollar when the present dollar-system is the one who is actually responsible for having UNfree Gold !

Gold is forced to show a falsified price for the dollar reserve and all its derivatives (other currencies).
According to the US treasury, the dollar is still a VERY strong and valuable currency...because one only needs 42 dollars to obtain one ounce of Gold, whilst the market says that one need much more (375$ instead of the official 42$) to get the same ounce of Gold !

The treasury-goldreserves AND the market-Gold prices are shackled and frozen.

If and when Gold can come back into a Free Gold Market...Gold will have the possibility to price, to value all currencies and the old dollar or new euro currency system. The Free Gold Market will then have a perfect Gold pricing mechanism that can move around with all the flexibility that is needed for any currency-system that is suitable for a prosperous global economy.

For the above reasons, I cannot, I don't dare to project any price for any currency vis � vis Gold. I am not the one who decides on the most appropiate artificial value of the present ($) or future (�) reserve currency.

I remain over-confident that my Gold coins will keep having a constant "purchasing power" regardless of what happens to currencies !!! I do prefer to HOLD Gold instead of any currency for that particular reason.

Once Gold can break Free in a Free Gold Market, all currencies will be re-priced as to correct for decades of currency mis-management and artificial, falsified purchasing power.

It is those who will set Gold Free that will have an idea of what the total amount of the reserve currency ($-�-other) will be worth in Gold Wealth. Will the dollar-system survive and/or will it be replaced by another currency taking over the role as reserve ? Or will the dollar decline/crash and cause hyper-price-inflation and remain as reserve currency, for some more time ? Can the Gold (POG) containment go on for ever whilst new growing powers continue to accumulate more Gold reserves and break the dollar-system when it is not functioning anymore ?

I don't know how things will turn out, comandante !!!

But remain convinced that the dollar-system has already been condemned. The date of execution remains unknown. When POG starts to gap strongly...this will signal that the dollar reserve currency system is defaulting and Gold is capable of pricing the dollar at its real remaining value (purchasing power).

Hope this possible answer is not too much confusing and is an understandable theory as to explain WHY a POG projection is extremely difficult >>> impossible on fundamental basis.
TA/TI on POG seems to become more and more unreliable and evidences that the dollar reserve currency is under very tight control-management-containment. I do like these subtle signs of increasing ($) pressures that are building (coiling).
TownCrier
Longer view for Gondolin
http://www.gold.org/value/markets/images/annual2002c.gifI can offer a couple graphs ready at hand to cast your comment (about gold not appreciating against other currencies) into better perspective.

Granted, these charts only demonstrate the movement in dollars, yen, euro, and Swiss Francs, but I think that if you consider a meaninful timeframe (something larger than a monthlong snapshot) you find that gold is generally moving up nicely even against the AUD, NZD, CAD, and rand, too.

The link above will show you the picture for the year 2002. Then, if you cut and paste the url below, you will get the additional picture of the relative performance for the 2003 timeframe.

http://www.gold.org/value/markets/Wgmc/031006b.gif

R.
MK
FOA...Major Development!
German Sources Say Russia Might Price Its Oil in
Euros
Combined Reports
YEKATERINBURG, Ural Mountains -- Russia is increasingly looking at pricing oil sales
in euros instead of dollars, reflecting the euro's growing role as a reserve currency,
German government sources said Wednesday.

"The question is taking on increasing significance," a person travelling with German
Chancellor Gerhard Schr�der on an official visit to Russia said.

A switch into euros by Russia, the second-biggest oil exporter behind Saudi Arabia and
holder of the world's largest natural gas reserves, would represent a major shift in the
balance of currencies behind the world's most traded commodity.

European leaders have long expressed interest in seeing energy contracts priced in
euros rather than dollars to promote the currency and boost price stability in the
European Union.

Most energy contracts are settled in dollars, meaning that for European buyers, trade in
gas and oil is subject not only to fluctuations in their market prices but also to variations
in the value of the U.S. currency. In 1999, just after Vladimir Putin became prime
minister, he laid out a proposal to move Russia's trade out of dollars and into euros.

A Russian Energy Ministry official said he could not confirm the report. "We cannot
confirm this information. No talks are taking place on the issue. The ministry draws up
export timetables, but does not deal with financial issues on oil supplies," the source
said. (Reuters, MT)
Paper Avalanche
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the end of the dollar
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/10/09/047.htmlBelieve it or not, I got this link from the Drudgereport.

IMNSHO, I interpret this to mean that the transition from the dollar to gold as the world reserve asset is going main stream.

I would expect that an announcement by China that individual investors can participate in the Shanghai Gold Exchange to follow within 6-12 months. That will be the final nail in the dollar coffin.

Take care all.

PAPER AVALANCHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paper Avalanche
This also on Drudge - but take it with a grain of salt...
Smeagol
$42? Why?
@ Belgian
(with a smile and bow to Gondolin)

We doesn't see how the resst of the world could be sso hypnotized by the "Official" US price of $42 an ounce. What is that but a relic, since no one (or if so
who?) has the priviledge of exchanging dollars for It at that price. Or is there ssomething we doesn't know, or something else in the works? The Higher Ups certainly know what's going on with the dollar, sso, why would they hang onto this number? It would be nice to think the US is letting everyone buy It, then when the paper dollar is finally gone to ashes, they'll raise it to $50 an ounce and let Eagles fly at last?

yah... Ssssure... ssss... am I awake or dreaming?

S.
steady
belgian
how ironic . i was thinking along those same lines.today but obvioulsy not with the clarity you just provided !
what im wondering is when the dollar convertability relative to gold gets to zero.
the way i decided to keep track was to keep track of how much gold ,valued in grams, 1 federal reserve note will get u.


also maybe u can explain the world wide deception that there is no united states dollar yet every financial reporter\ magazine /publication tells the wold about a strong dollar or the falling dollar or the rising dollar or in my case the fing worthless dollar cause there is no such thing anymore. take a federal reserve note and examine it. notice how they just print the united states of america on it, so u imply that is an american dollar but it aint its still a federal reserve note not a united startes dollar, then on the back they put them same words the united states of america, whats that about? more words to get u to imply that yes indeed this is an authentic american dollar. well im telling you and the world it aint. no such thing, they are federal reserve notes.
when will the media hav e the de gaull to tell the truth! since jane and john doe have decided to abdicate there ability to conceptualize and theorize as well as actually think for themselvs and take action, to the government spin doctors who will tell them what they want them to belive thru there various psychological methods (t.v. channel GE {cnbc},publications , radio,) all at times using unsuspecting individuals who want to climb the corporate ladder and who will do bout anything for the promotion. wonder how many unsuspecting accesories there have been over the past well 32 years since this free floating currency experiment had begun> for when push comes to shove it wont matter what u belive. what will matter is did u get sum?
and people will ask oh where did u get priced in at , oh i got priced in when federal reserve notes where trading for 375 per ounce of that good stuff! where will u get priced in at? 400 450 ? let the paper bury your price deep under more worthless notes!
canamami
German Sources Say Russia Might Price Its Oil in Euros
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/10/09/047.html Thursday, Oct. 9, 2003. Page 5

German Sources Say Russia Might Price Its Oil in Euros

Combined Reports YEKATERINBURG, Ural Mountains -- Russia is increasingly looking at pricing oil sales in euros instead of dollars, reflecting the euro's growing role as a reserve currency, German government sources said Wednesday.

............
canamami
Apologies
I was so excited when I saw it on Drudge, I didn't check to see if anyone else had posted it.

Where is FOA, by the way? Another also?
steady
opps
i wrote this
also maybe u can explain the world wide deception that there is no united states dollar
but meant this


also maybe u can explain the world wide deception that there is a united states dollar!


who issued it? federal reserve
who is paying intrest on the debt it represents ie whose using it? american taxpayers hahaha!
DummyANI
@Gandalf the White (10/08/03; 09:54:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 110025)
Governor Fukui is a puppet of Wall Street. He has been depreciating a gold value in Japan.

At July 2004, new paper moneys of YEN will be issued by BOJ.

So in a near futures, Japanese households begin to accumulate PHYSICAL gold for an insurance.

D-ANI:
Druid
Remarks by Ambassador Charles J. Swindells
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/PO0310/S00053.htmRemarks by US Ambassador Charles J. Swindells
Wednesday, 8 October 2003, 4:14 pm
Speech: US Embassy Wellington

NOTE: The following speech was not in fact delivered today as a group of protestors disrupted the occasion.

U.S. Embassy, Wellington

Remarks by Ambassador Charles J. Swindells

to Vic Univ. Diplomat's Series � Noon, October 8, 2003
From: http://wellington.usembassy.gov/AmbSpeech.pdf
Thank you.

Let me begin by stating that I understand all too well that there are people � probably some of you here today � who disagree with various policies and actions of the U.S. in recent times. I'm here today to try to explain some of those policies, and perhaps correct some misconceptions.

Druid: Interesting speech that was not given. Doing our best to make friends everywhere we go.
Druid
Japan Urged Not to Meddle In US-Korea Nuke Talks
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0310/S00071.htmSnippit

Japan Urged Not to Meddle in Any Negotiations to Solve Nuclear Issue
Pyongyang - A spokesman for the DPRK Foreign Ministry said in a statement today that the DPRK would not allow Japan to participate in any form of negotiations for the settlement of the nuclear issue in the future.

Referring to the fact that the Japanese authorities are persistently attempting to use the nuclear issue between the DPRK and the U.S. for their selfish purpose, he said: Lurking behind this is a black-hearted intention of the present Japanese rulers to save Japan from economic depression and achieve the stability of their office by making its domestic policy veer to the right and stepping up its militarization under the pretext of the nuclear issue on the Korean peninsula.

The Japanese authorities' much publicized "issue of abduction" was already settled with the adoption of the DPRK-Japan Pyongyang Declaration. There is neither ground nor base for them to link it to the nuclear issue. Their row only renders the nuclear issue more complicated.


Druid: Politically, things are looking up in Japan.
Cavan Man
canamami
Beginning shortly after the inception of the Euro, Russia began receiving a small Euro contribution to every barrel sold.
Druid
Enron E-mails Confirm Schwarzenegger-Ken Lay Meeting
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0310/S00064.htmEnron E-mails Confirm Schwarzenegger-Ken Lay Meeting

Enron E-Mails Show Arnold Met With Ken Lay During Energy Crisis
Santa Monica, CA -- Internal Enron e-mails confirm that Arnold Schwarzenegger was among a small group of executives who met with Lay at the posh Peninsula Beverly Hills hotel in May of 2001, in the midst of California's energy crisis. The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights, which obtained the e-mails, is calling on Schwarzenegger to acknowledge the meetings and disclose the information that was presented and discussed. The meeting with Enron occurred ten days after rolling blackouts darkened California for two consecutive days; Schwarzenegger has previously said that he does not remember such a meeting.

"You don't meet with America's most well-known corporate crook in the middle of California's biggest financial disaster and not remember," said FTCR's senior consumer advocate Douglas Heller. "Mr. Schwarzenegger should come clean about what happened at that meeting and if he shares Ken Lay's views on energy regulation."

Druid: Its like having front row tickets to a freak show playing out in real time.
Druid
Security Council Disagrees Over Israel Air Strike
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0310/S00060.htmSyria Asks Council to Condemn Attack; Israel Says Attack Response for Islamic Jihad's Bombing in Haifa

The Security Council met in an emergency session this afternoon, at Syria's request, following an Israeli air strike against that country earlier today.

The Israeli air strike fell near a Syrian village, Ain Al Sahib, to the north-west of the capital of Damascus. The strikes followed the suicide bombing yesterday at a restaurant in the seaside town of Haifa, Israel, which killed 19 Israelis.

Syria's representative condemned the air strike, and he tabled a resolution that would have the Council do the same. He said the act of aggression was a flagrant violation of the United Nations Charter, of international law, and of the 1974 Disengagement Agreement between Syria and Israel, as well as a clear manifestation of an Israeli policy based on aggression and lack of respect for agreements.

Targeting a Syrian village was further proof that the massacres committed by Israel on the pretext of fighting so-called terrorism reflected a big lie, used to justify a policy of colonialism and settlement-building. That policy was in violation of all the principles of peace and security on which the United Nations was founded, and ran counter to the peace process started in Madrid in 1991.

Calling Israel's reprisals for the attack in Haifa "repugnant", several speakers from neighbouring Arab countries suggested that the air strike, in the context of an already shaky peace, could return the region to war and imperil international peace and security. Some said the armed reprisal was disproportionate and had proceeded from a political desire to destroy the peace process, illegally expand the conflict zone, and destabilize the entire region.

Druid: Man! Things are just getting out of control.
RAP
New lows for dollar
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0Rimh: The "think tank" isn't there to fix problems, it's there to keep them from getting caught next time.
Druid
Clif Droke's Latest
Druid: Has anyone else read Clif Droke's latest reference "The coming currency devaluation?" There is some serious speculation reference bullion ownership.
Pizz
A Little Practical Advice
This may be considered by some as a bit of a rant, and I'm not going to go into a lot of detail into what I say, but I'm going to summarize quite a bit.

You may read, listen, and debate all kinds of micro, nit-picky BS right along with all the other BS coming out of the mainstream press, but I want you to think, and to think with the knowledge that over 90% of what you hear, see, and read is the direct result of someone elses personal, vested interest into putting money into thier own personal pockets at your expense. (the 10% exception is for the few of us here, and elsewhere, our host included).

Now for a few macro facts. . .

The United States cannot continue to run deficits in either trade or budgets indefinately. The dollar has started and will continue to crash. There is no end in sight - period.

As the dollar drops, and our creditors stop funding our spendthrift ways, interest rates have to go up. When interest rates increase, every marginal leveraged business is going to first cut employment to the bone, then, for the most part, will go under. There is no foundation for any kind of economic expansion. The people of this country cannot service enough more debt to maintain our GNP, just as this country will not be able to service the debt we already have, let alone the unfunded liabilities promised.

Stop and think. How may rich, well off people do you know with the bulk of their assets locked into real estate and 401K's. If the pervervial crap hits the fan, how do the middle class liquidate and move their money into safe havens? The simple answer is that they can't. When the economy gets worse ( and it will unless someone can show me anywhere in history where any civilization has borrowed their way into prosperity) how do the middle class relocate for better employment or opportunities when their entire net worth (if any) is oversubscibed by debt?

It appears to me that with the major corporations moving both production and operations overseas, along with capital, that the handwriting is already on the wall.

Does anyone actually think that there are enough resources available for the bulk of the world's population to have any kind of standard of living equivalent to the US (or for that matter Europe and few other countries with free enterprise). Well the PTB seem to have this figured out pretty well, and I seem to think that there is gong to be a little bit of spreading the wealth so to speak.

AS CURRANCIES READJUST, THOSE THAT INCREASE UP THEIR STANDARD OF LIVING, AND THOSE THAT DECREASE TEND TO LOSE THEIRS. AND THE ONES THAT INCREASE OVER THE WORLD AVERAGE WILL BE SHORT LIVED (the Euro will be a good example). EVERTHING EVENTUALLY REVERTS TO THE MEAN.

Now, as all monetary instraments revert to the mean, just what do you think is going to be the standard? Well, if you guess gold and silver, you have about 5000+ years of history on your side. It's that damn simple.

I'd venture to guess that there is no one out there reading this that doesn't have the ability to cut 10% or more out of their own personal expenditures to protect what they may have. It doesn't matter whether you can scrape up an extra 50 or 100 bucks a month, but you can if you try and you can invest it into something of value that you can control.

Start buying a bit of protection, or increase what you have, because this fiat house of debt and derivative cards is not anything I'm going to build any type of future with, and if anyone thinks otherwise stop and think a bit. Just what the heck is it going to be worth in 10 years?

It all starts with a coin or two, and if you can't afford gold, try silver - as Rich says, you get more weight for the buck.

It's that darn serious, and the last time I checked, MK does have a small order desk. . .

Pizz
GratefulForGold
steady @misc. messages
I have been playing the usual "catch up" (of a few days) of late. I do remember seeing your post on "ecosim" (whatever that is). My problem with reading your posts was quite simple: your "form." This may or may not be my problem and not yours.

I tend to read posts that are written in an easily read format. I tend to read posts that don't use "u" for "you," etc. I tend to read posts that have good spelling and grammar (although I make allowances where I recognize that English is not someone's first language). I tend to read posts that are broken down in proper paragraphs and therefore easier to read.

When I first saw your "ecoism" concept I was interested. I just couldn't wade through your form of writing.

I am STILL interested in your concept. If you believe in your concept enough to take your former posts and re-write them in a different way that would entice me to read them -- I'd love to read and consider your concepts!

Lady GFG
GratefulForGold
Smeagol (many posts)
Just a quick note to thank you for the remembrances of The Lord of the Rings! Your posts always bring a smile. Although I haven't read Tolkein's books since the 70's (I've bypassed the media versions), your posts have inspired me to go dig my Tolkein books out of storage and re-read them!

Thanksss, my preciouses!

Lady GFG
Great Albino Bat
Something some might want to consider...

The GAB recently read a report that probably a few here also saw and read. It's about the financial condition of the average American.

GAB did not memorize the statistics presented, but what was most interesting, is the amount of money Americans spend "eating out". Something like $2,300 dollars a year.

Also, "communications" came in about $950 dollars a year.

Suggestion for those convinced they better prepare for Godawful times:

Do not eat out! Stop that expensive habit. Cook your own meals, and learn to make them tasty. Save that money and BUY GOLD!

Cancel your Cable T.V. (For entertainment, read. Don't buy new books. Buy used books!) Cut down on phone calls to the very bone. Cancel your cellular unless it's a deductible expense and indispensable for earning bread. Just gabbing with friends: you can't afford it! Save the money and BUY GOLD!

Internet expenses: cut back, cut back, cut back! Peek into this Forum for a short while, maximum, and you'll know all you need to know. Cut connection charges to the bone.

There are many, many opportunities to reduce expenses and BUY GOLD!

"Fuzzy" thinking: "Well, what's life for if not to be enjoyed?" OK, go ahead, but if you think this way, you will regret it deeply in the near future.

The U.S. has been a Fool's Paradise. Take action while you still have an opportunity. Conditions are about to change, and will become unbelievably bad!

The GAB once visited a slaughterhouse. Cattle have no idea what's going on until they get it in the neck. Ditto for sheep. But, the poor piggies catch on immediately! They are much smarter animals! They are scared as hell as soon as they are on the premises of the slaughterhouse, because they realize what's coming. Very impressive visit, indeed!

Be smarter than the pigs. Don't wait until you are in the slaughterhouse! That's too late. ACT NOW!

PIZZ: I stand by all you have written. Most people have no idea of how bad things are going to get; "some people learn from reading; others learn from friends' advice; and the rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves".

LADY GRATEFUL: Amen! I am sorry to say I must scroll by the contributions of some posters, as indecipherable. As you say, the thinking MAY be there, but - try and make it easier for your readers, friends!

ALL: the GAB informs you, that his friend with an allocated gold deposit at UBS, Zurich, reports that after 32 days of delays, his order for a transfer of physical was finally carried out. No explanation given for the extraordinary delay.

The GAB
Rimh
Rap
Almost fell off my chair laughing! You nailed it, friend!
Goldendome
Foreigner to request foreign aid for California!

Yesterday, (Wednesday) the Governor elect of California expressed his desire to meet with the U.S. President, to discuss the possibility of Federal assistance in overcoming California's huge budget deficit.

Good! Glad to see that! At first though, I thought-Geeza Louisa- here we go with another bailout attempt. And this time for a profligate group of politicians that have spent money over the past decade at a much faster rate than they could bring it in, even during the dot-com boom. But there's nothing new there...The federal congress has been doing that for decades. The poor politicos out here in the states are just disadvantaged in not being able to conterfeit their own dollars.

Who better to see though, if you really need a lot of money, than the man figuratively, anyway, in charge of the printing presses? So, alot of other states have deficits too. You have a money problem in California--send money. Problems in Texas--send money...Illinois...Pennsylvania, on down the line---send money!

The United States seems to have limitless amounts of money to ship all over the world. Iraq, immediately comes to mind. Egypt and Israel are also high on the list of recipients of billions and billions over the years. Why not spread this thin air created largess around this country also? If we can spend billions on countries that don't amount to a thimble full of anything but trouble, certainly, we should be able to help reserect or engage in "State Building" for the fifth largest world economy (California).

What a wonderful Christmas gift to America if the U.S. Congress should pass legislation giving away, say, $100 billion to the states. What surer way to ingratiate themselves to each one of us grateful tax-payers?

The money is after all just a few mouse clicks away from your state! One of the wonderful things about this plan would be the fact that it is SO easy to do. No one should say or do anything against it. [Who's going to say,no, to the gift horse.] After all, The Japanese and Chinese are so intent on selling real goods for dollars, that they will take all we create! There should be no problem with this plan, as fiscal pain will be relieved throughout the country; foreigners will ultimately get what they covet most--dollars.

We here at the forum should be able to smile and wink at one another; we got the Gold, they won't be "making" anymore of that. They can just pump and spend-and borrow-and spend-and...spend-and ..spend...

Gdome

Gandalf the White
OOPS !!! There goes the US$ to NEW LOWS for this last five years !
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0What is that "song and dance" -- "HOW LOW CAN YOU GO ?"
This has GOT to be GOOD for GOLD !
At $380+ we see the ROCKET appear on the P&F chart !
<;-)
<;-)
Belgian
@ Gondolin
The US$ is the planet's reserve currency. That means that the US$ is * THE standard * to wich all other currencies do refer for their valuation. Since 3/4 of world trade is done in US$, because it is the reserve currency, we all "have to" accept the dollar's importance and we "have to" comply with the dollar-system.

This dollar-system has been growing/evolving for many decades. In this dollar-system, Gold always played a role.
Gold's role "changed" over these decades...and is in the process of changing "again". Study the history of the dollar-system and Gold...and the possible future of Gold might become a bit clearer.

As long as the dollar-system exists and functions, all other currencies have to keep accepting the dollar as their standard.

Time has come that many want to "seriously" break away (break free) from this all embracing dollar-system.
They want to break free THROUGH GOLD !!! They want to liberate Gold from the dollar's Guantanamo.

They : The euro in the first place and all those who realize that the dollar-system is NOT working for them.

Taking or bringing Gold into a Free Gold Market is a relatively new "concept". This is a major operation that cannot happen overnight and needs carefull preparation.

This is happening NOW !!!

Most of us are beginning to SUFFICIENTLY understand what the present Unfree Gold means. Gold, the physical metal, is prisoned into an artificial paper gold market at the dollar's system's service. Unfree Gold in a dollar dominated paper gold market IS the dollar's one and only force left.

But there MUST be an alternative to this dollar-system (not the dollar as ordinary currency) !!!
And for as long as there is no dollar-alternative, all currencies and their respective "gold-worth" must remain in line *with* the dollar-master.
Never throw your old shoes away before having new ones...or you will walk on bare feet !

Back to your POG expressed in the different currency-prices.
These different POGs simply reflect the exchange rate of all those currencies against the dollar's worth in Gold.
The (present) dollar-system is NOT allowing other currencies (than the dollar) to let Gold say what the currency is really worth !

It is exactly this system that will change : GOLD will tell the whole world, what your, mine, their, our currency is "REALLY" worth ! How good or bad is your currency expressed in Gold. NOT the dollar but GOLD will become the ultimate standard. That's why we need FREEGOLD. Free from the dollar-system and free to value each and every currency in an objective way.
silvercollector
Orderly breakdown?
USD bounced off 91.8 twice on Tuesday and bounced off 91.6 twice yesterday. Sliding through 91.39 now; gold up a bit.

Limit up today? Beating tomorrow?
DummyANI
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 03 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7
Oct. 06 53,796�c plus15038�c...370.0
Oct. 07 58,706�c plus4910�c...373.3
Oct. 08 64,629�c plus5923�c...377.8
Oct. 09 62,648. minus1981�c...376.0

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
silvercollector
MK, PA
I'm a little suspect of that 'Euro's for oil' article. Why is a German source speaking about Russian purchases?
silvercollector
Druid
"Its like having front row tickets to a freak show playing out in real time. "

No kidding!!
silvercollector
Syria/Israel: This thing is about to blow.
http://www.rense.com/general42/syria.htmCan't see anything other than a major conflict in the next few months.
Belgian
WHAT IS FREE GOLD ?
I want GOLD to tell what my currency is worth ! Is my currency as good as Gold...or only half as good...or totally Gold unworthy ?

I do NOT want any other currency telling me what my currency is worth ! Is my currency as good as the dollar...or only half as good...or totally dollar (reserve) unworthy ?

I do NOT want any currency to tell Gold what it is worth !

Let ALL currencies compete for Gold in a Free Gold Market.
A currency meritocraty ! Order in the jungle !

Stop moving in and out this or that currency and let there only be Free movement of Gold into currencies and currencies into Gold .

This can only be achieved if and when the present existing gold paper markets become worthless and Gold is traded in a Physical Only market.

NOT the paper (any paper) telling what is Gold's worth, but Gold telling what the paper is worth ! Turn Gold and paper upside down !

It is against this (A/FOA) background that the euro currency's ambitions to become the new oil-currency, are of such a vital importance. Russia might grab the unique chance to become a future economical power again, when allying with Euroland, AGAIN, after 70 years of organized separation (through two WWs) by the A.A. financiers !

THINGS KEEP ON CHANGING !
cyclist
Gold in NZD, AUD, CAD etc
http://finance.yahoo.com/m5?s=XAU&t=AUD&a=1&c=2Following on from the post by Gondolin yesterday regarding the price of gold in terms of some of the commodity currencies. A good site for those wanting to track the price trend of gold and silver in their own currency is the Yahoo Finance international currency section (see link for an example).

For those down under, gold and (particularly) silver look very attractive at these levels.
NEMO me impune lacessit
Smeagol msg#: 110044
Well - since 42 is the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.
Nemo
Belgian
@ Druid about Droke's latest.....
...A TWO-TIERED DOLLAR CURRENCY SYSTEM...
...A DOMESTIC CRAYOLA DOLLAR CURRENCY...

And nobody finds this worth any comment ? Strange !

What is the message : To ALL dollar users, outside the US territories...THAT OLD DOLLAR IS YOURS NOW...KEEP ON USING IT...sorry , BUT IT IS WORTHLESS FOR US !!!-???

De Gaulle in the sixties...Nixon in the seventies...is about an outside dollar reserve that was already worthless then !!!

Wonder WHY oil is looking for ANOTHER (hum) currency ?
Wonder WHY many want more of ANOTHER reserve (Gold) than the dollar reserve ?

PUTIN IS IN TALKS WITH WTO !!!
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
(No Subject)
@Belgian - Druid about Droke's latest A TWO-TIERED DOLLAR CURRENCY SYSTEMAre we talking exchange controls here?

With the coming two-tiered currency system, foreigners will continue to be allowed to use the greenback while U.S. citizens will be stuck with the "crayola currency" which CANNOT BE EXCHANGED.
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
2-tier monetry system
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972416021/qid=1065694979/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-8772579-7427964?v=glance&s=booksEditorial Reviews
Book Description
Those who cannot imagine that there will be one currency used internally and a different U.S. dollar used externally outside the United States ill need to read Lawrence Patterson's book.
Among other things, you will learn of the super secret currency printing plant set up north of Fort Worth, TX and the ominous way in which this plant is run. The Los Alamos National Laboratory doesn't have anywhere near the security systems. THIS is the plant - - that has printed the MULTICOLORED dollars to be the backbone of the new monetary system.

This new monetary system has been detailed in a Senate Bill S.2158. The bill waits to be passed, at the last moment when it is needed. It is now being ruthlessly put into place by the U.S. Treasury Dept. A BLOCKED CURRENCY is coming - - this is also discussed and explained in detail. This is the system that is used when a country runs out of money and has no alternative but to devalue against those countries to which it is deeply in debt. Chapter 5 discusses IN DETAIL how Americans will be affected by this DUAL CURRENCY SYSTEM.

Leigh
WAC
Just went to your link for Amazon and looked at the information on Lawrence Parks's book. It is 43 pages long and costs $30! But...it's #1314 on the Amazon hit parade list! THAT is an astonishing feat, when you consider the hundreds of thousands of books (maybe millions) of books they offer.

LOTS OF PEOPLE are reading this book, obviously.
Cavan Man
More Euro/Oil News
Thursday, Oct. 9, 2003. Page 5

German Sources Say Russia Might Price Its Oil in Euros

Combined Reports YEKATERINBURG, Ural Mountains -- Russia is increasingly looking at pricing oil sales in euros instead of dollars, reflecting the euro's growing role as a reserve currency, German government sources said Wednesday.

"The question is taking on increasing significance," a person travelling with German Chancellor Gerhard Schr�der on an official visit to Russia said.

A switch into euros by Russia, the second-biggest oil exporter behind Saudi Arabia and holder of the world's largest natural gas reserves, would represent a major shift in the balance of currencies behind the world's most traded commodity.


CoBra(too)
Everything is Blue Skies again in LaLa-Land
Every economist and his brother sees the economy strenghtening. The problems of yesterday miracolously seem to have given in to anewed hope of leaving the recession, once and for all behind. The SM's strong advances in the SM's seem to proving this fact. So all's well in lala-land again.

Amazingly the Greenspan put is working. Credit, which is debit is burgeoning ever more - your government and FED says it's a good thing. The financial perpetuum mobile has finally been discovered. While the natives exchange their greenbacks today to a new blue and pink FRN-note, the bloody foreigners, holding two thirds of the old green notes may play monopoly among themselves. A, and yes Arnie, the Gubernator has been elected the new broom in California.

Any reasons to own gold has been severely vanquished. Or has it? And what else is new? cb2

Paper Avalanche
New $20 FRN
I am going to the bank at lunch today to see if they have the new notes available. I believe that a compelling case can be made for and against bifurcation of the currency. I am leaning more toward the against in that, if I were doing it anyway, that I would need more than just the $20 bill available for distribution and circulation. It does not make sense to me for the $20 to roll out now and then the $50 and $100 bills to roll out in the next year or so. I do not see how this dual currency system, with restrictions on convertability between domestic and international use, can be accomplished gradually.

Having said that, my opinion would change dramatically if the gubmint were to announce over the weekend that a new currency system is now in place and we find on Monday that the $50 and $100 bills have been printed and stand ready for distribution. This makes sense in that to pre-announce that the entire currency was to be revamped at one time would tip the hand of TPTB to let the world, and more importantly the american sheeple, know the intentions of the gubmint.

I also took a close look at the new $20 bill and compared it to a $20 bill that I got out of an ATM this morning. All verbage is the same with one subtle, but possibly important, distinction. There exists a new federal symbol just to the bottom right of the potrait of Andrew Jackson. The symbol appears to be an eagle on top of a shield that is similar to the federal reserve system symbol contained in the circle on the left hand side of the note. This new federal symbol is reminisent of the german eagle atop the swastika in the laurel wreath that was the state emblem during the fascist government of germany during WWII.

Just some thoughts.

PA
Leigh
Paper Avalanche
Morning, PA! I was thinking about you since today is your BIG DAY!

To anyone: In the Droke article, he talks on and on about taxes and restrictions on gold. He recommends numismatics (I have some). Is there ANYTHING ELSE we can do in advance of all this?
Cor Tauri
Basil
I saw few answers to your recent questions. They are important questions, and while I am no expert on anything, I will offer my ideas on your questions. It is my hope that if any of my ignorance might misled you, others here will correct my misunderstandings.
re: storage of things
There can be no assurance of safety. Better to count on losing some. Perhaps multiple locations. 1/3 in bank safe deposit box, 1/3 personal residence, 1/3 residence of someone you would trust with your life. If you spread it around, you won't likely keep all of it, but neither will you likely lose all of it. As far as technology... Someone responded with some ideas about dealing with that. Creativity might be well rewarded if it comes to that.
re: this oil/gold/Another concept
I don't presume to speak with authority on this, but ...
Ok, in short:
From Bretton Woods to early 1970's world worked mostly ok
Non-US citizen has dollars? They can exchange for gold at fixed rate. Trade with US, they pay dollars, dollars good as gold, don't believe fine, they will exchange gold for dollars, not $ but the old symbol with two lines through the S.
1971? Nixon suspends, then ends this. Now Trade with US, they pay dollars, dollars can be exchanged for dollars. You could also maybe buy something with the $'s maybe US Treasury obligations or oh wait thats the same thing isn't it?
Lets say you make and sell oil for a living. Are you happy with this deal? No. But do you really want world economic activity to grind to a halt? Everyone needs a deal, they all party in Jamaica, (really) and hash out a deal. Call it an accord and best I can tell it works kindof like this. You sell oil for dollars, everyone buys oil with dollars. The people who need the oil will make it so you can get some gold out of this. There is really no other choice so everyone goes along with this. But some of the parties, while grinding teeth behind smiles decide, "We WILL create an alternative, this shall not stand for ever." Those smiling grinding teeth folks begin planning a common european currency. Ok from 1971 to about 1996 the world works mostly ok. There are some problems in that the US can produce $ for free. I mean we print them, create them, they are free for the US. So US nation essentially gets it's oil for free. But everyone else must use $ to buy oil too. And they don't print them. They have to make stuff, sell it to US for $, and use $ to buy oil. Whole world turns into constant struggle to make stuff to sell to US for the $ to get the oil. There used to be a TV ad in US, I work more, for more money, so I can buy more cocaine, so I can work more. Around 1996 the world entered re-hab. $ re-hab that is. Euro is real now not some plan in the 1970s. Much of the world has seen that $ addiction is very hard on a nations health. Oil producers don't really care what they get for oil, as long as they can get gold with it. (Maybe not all the oil producers, but the ones that matter) The $ timeline is nearing an end. But if that happens, if the US can no longer create the important currency for free, if the US needs to make stuff and sell it to someone for something with which the US can buy oil, well ... then our American way of life will change.
~2001 to current.
There are people whose jobs it is to defend "the American way of Life" They are smart and work hard at their job.
In the long run, what needs to happen for them to accomplish their mission is:
The world has to keep needing the $.
Oil has to remaine priced in $.
IF US was major producer of oil, they could set price in $
How can US become major producer of oil? Acquire proven and probable of course.
In the mean time, while oil is still priced in $, any decline in exchange rate of $ can be corrected by an increase in the price of oil. Dosn't hurt US as a nation as much as it helps, because US makes $ for free. But it will force other oil consumers to purchase more $ to buy the oil they need.
"But why are creditors apparently holding back exchanging these increasing amts of $ confetti for Euros,Gold,Gold Dinar,good farmland--anything"
They probably are. But you and I wouldn't see it happening unless it was already done.
"Is it fear that if they begin dollar dump..." Yes, but probably more than that. The alternative isn't completly ready yet. The Euro is ready, but there is lots more than just the Euro that needs to be on it's spot. The world economy mustn't grind to a halt not even temporarly. "Noone" is certain it could be restarted.
"Why doesn't OPEC want dollar price of oil high as possible as long as possible?"
Well during the peroid ~1973 say mid 70's to 1996 they were afraid the world would find a way of not needing oil. During the 1970's and 80's there was all kinds of talk about alternative resources, renewable this and that. OPEC may have been afraid of pricing themselves right out of a job. (They would have been wrong, but ...) Also they didn't really care about the $ price perhaps but rather the deal under the Jamaica Accord. They were getting gold at a "special" price ever declining in $. The price of oil could remain constant and oil producers would still make more year after year from the same amount of production because the price of gold was declining year after year.
They never wanted the $. They wanted the gold. Now things are somewhat more complicated. Oil producers have proven and probable. Though maybe not as much as they have suggested. They may well be concerned about hostile takeovers. Two of the oil producers seem to have turned to a White Knight so to speak. Iran has for decades I guess maintanted rather close relationships with Russia and prior to that the USSR. Saudi Arabia some time ago requested that all US military leave the kingdom. Recently this has happened. Apparently the Saudis miss the presence of lots of foreign military because the have engaged Russia in discussion about maybe stationing some soldiers in the Kingdom and who knows perhapse even some Topol-Ms. Also they have quietly expressed the desire to purchase military equipment from Pakistan that Pakistan only recently developed. So for right now, it would be somewhat of a surprise if OPEC went wild with the price of oil. They have a lot in the works and probably would like to buy some time. If they jump the price in $ much it would indicate that either the US demanded it, so as to help moderate the decline of the dollar, or that they had concluded some deal or another that enhanced their feelings of security. Once the feel completly secure, they will likely simply change what currency they require.
re: Iraq's oil not getting to market... I had not heard that this might be the intentional work of the US. Who knows. It would seem to me at least that... well I don't know. I will look into that. I would expect that Black Blade has a good understanding of this. I would suggest that the Iraqi infrastructure has been poorly maintaned over the past decade.
Basil, I hope others correct me where I am wrong. And I hope that you pursue a deep understanding of all of this. It is one thing to simply say buy gold, lots of it. But to miss one of the most incredible dramas of human history happening in ones life would be really unfortunate. This is like the fall of Rome occuring in the span of a single lifetime. To watch it, to understand, even if one is a Roman, especially if one is a Roman, is the most incredible show on earth. What is happening now, is, it is astonishing. They will write of this period of human history THOUSANDS of years from now.
All men die, few are witness to great things, and fewer still understand what they have seen.
Keep your eyes open, and a little gold won't hurt, a lot might even help.
Best Regards to you Basil.











Cavan Man
Currency Recall by Lawrence Patterson
Anyone know where a copy of this monograph can be obtained?
Kilo
Cavan Man - Currency Recall Link
cockerel1
Economy and Employment
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031008/economy_ceos_outlook_2.htmlReuters
UPDATE - U.S. CEOs see economy gaining steam; jobs less so
Wednesday October 8, 7:24 pm ET
By Jeremy Pelofsky and Tom Johnson


(Adds quotes, details throughout, edits.)
WHITE SULPHUR SPRINGS, W.Va, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Most U.S. corporate chieftains see the economy and their businesses on a strong footing next year though they forecast a slow improvement in the employment picture, according to a survey released on Wednesday.

More than half of the chief executive officers quizzed by the Business Council, 55 percent, thought the economy would grow more than 3 percent next year with another 40 percent expecting expansion of 1.6 percent to 3 percent.

Executives also offered an upbeat outlook for their own businesses, with about two-thirds of those surveyed predicting their profit margins would grow in 2004 but their ability to raise prices would still be limited.

"Overall I'd say there is an expectation of a good but not super economy coming in this last quarter and in 2004 with expectations that productivity will continue and that will be a significant driver of profits for these companies," said Fannie Mae (NYSE:FNM - News) CEO Franklin Raines who directed the survey.

The U.S. economy has been picking up steam in recent months, growing at a 3.3 percent annual rate in the second quarter. Private economists have predicted that the economy may expand as much as 3.9 percent next year.

But unemployment levels have remained stagnant at 6.1 percent even with 57,000 new non-farm jobs created last month. About 2.6 million jobs have been lost since 2001 and the CEOs did not have particularly good news for those out of work.

They forecast the unemployment rate would hover around 5.8 percent to 6.1 percent at the end of 2003 and fall to 5.1 percent to 5.8 percent next year.

And more than half of CEOs expect that the Fed will raise short-term interest rates next year but only modestly, according to the survey.

The U.S. Federal Reserve has kept short-term interest rates at 45-year lows in hopes that the economy will surge ahead and policymakers have indicated they have no intention of raising rates any time soon.

Executives ranging from General Electric Co. (NYSE:GE - News) to Sara Lee Corp. (NYSE:SLE - News) were convening at the posh Greenbrier golf and spa resort in the Allegheny mountains of West Virginia to chew over the latest U.S. outlook, corporate governance and other issues confronting their companies.

The Business Council, made up of about 125 CEOs from a variety of businesses, was established during the Great Depression to advise the government on the economy and social issues.

EMPLOYEE OUTLOOK MURKY

While spending on such items as research and development has increased substantially in recent quarters, U.S. businesses are still taking a tepid approach to opening the purse strings again on such items as inventory or work force expansion.

Companies' cost-cutting measures, such as axing jobs, have been the main force helping expand profit margins in recent quarters. But nearly two-thirds of the executives surveyed now predict they will see sales growth next year as consumer spending continues strong.

One statistic Raines noted that was surprising was almost two-thirds of the CEOs surveyed said they expected job growth at their companies to be stable, and only 14 percent increasing hiring despite their expectations for a better economy.

"It does raise the conundrum of how all those things happen at once," said Raines.

Inventories are also largely expected to remain stable next year, with 21 percent of those surveyed expecting a modest decline, according to the survey.

Three-quarters of the CEOs forecast inflation would be between 1.1 percent and 2 percent in 2004, while 17 percent expected inflation could reach as high as 3 percent.

Another area of particular concern for executives was the federal budget deficit, which has reached some $400 billion and was expected to go higher, which could crowd out private investment spending or push up interest rates.

Raines also warned that the economy cannot continue to rely on American consumers as the economy's driver.

"The consumer, even though they are the biggest part of this economy, can't continue to lead the recovery."




Comment: The last two paragraphs confuse the h*** out of me!




Kilo
Review snip from "Currency Recall"
Book Description
Those who cannot imagine that there will be one currency used internally and a different U.S. dollar used externally outside the United States ill need to read Lawrence Patterson's book.
Among other things, you will learn of the super secret currency printing plant set up north of Fort Worth, TX and the ominous way in which this plant is run. The Los Alamos National Laboratory doesn't have anywhere near the security systems. THIS is the plant - - that has printed the MULTICOLORED dollars to be the backbone of the new monetary system.

This new monetary system has been detailed in a Senate Bill S.2158. The bill waits to be passed, at the last moment when it is needed. It is now being ruthlessly put into place by the U.S. Treasury Dept. A BLOCKED CURRENCY is coming - - this is also discussed and explained in detail. This is the system that is used when a country runs out of money and has no alternative but to devalue against those countries to which it is deeply in debt. Chapter 5 discusses IN DETAIL how Americans will be affected by this DUAL CURRENCY SYSTEM.

Kilo
Sorry for the repostings....... ;o)
Guess I need to scroll down (think) before posting (talking).......
CoBra(too)
Thanks to Kilo
For posting the link to "Currency Recall" by Patterson.

Just in my neck of woods ... cb2
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
USA! Two Currencies - magazine article Tue, 01 Aug 1995 17:42:19 -0700
http://www.uwsa.com/pipermail/money-ethics/1995/003363.htmlU.S. Senate Bill S-307 Plans
Two Currencies for America
by Iain C L Poole

It looks as if the Domestic and Non-Domestic $100 bills provided for in Senator Leahy's S-307 will soon be with us. Last year, Leahy introduced S-2158, which called for tightly controlled "domestic" and "non-domestic" ver
sions of the dollar, and new banknotes for both. S-2158 failed to pass the 103rd Congress because of public objections to the "dual currency" idea, but the Counterfeiting and Money Laundering Deterrence Act,
reintroduced just a few months later as S-307, is a very close replacement.
Justified as a "pre-emptive strike against counterfeiting" this idea recalls the Federal Reserve's "pre-emptive strike against inflation."
By getting us used to pre-emptive strikes against scary monsters like counterfeiting and inflation, the Fed can sell us on unpopular ideas like currency replacement without having to bother creating a problem first. Although
they could create a problem if they had to, of course!
Congress has been asked on several occasions to study creating a more traceable currency which is harder to counterfeit. U.S. $100 bills are some of the easiest of all currencies to counterfeit, especially for such a high value.

WAC: Apparently, it's to eliminate counterfeiting. Who is the BIGGEST counterfeiter of all, one asks oneself!!
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
Bullion at 1 percent over our cost, free shipping on 25oz.
ge
Credit Suisse- First Boston Opines on the Gold/Euro Relationship
Great Albino Bat
Cor Tauri: Excellent brief resum� of recent history you just posted!
"All men die, few are witness to great things, and fewer still understand what they have seen."

Remarkable expression, Cor Tauri, congratulations!

Words to write down and memorize.

The GAB
Basil
Cor Tauri
Thank You---for the detailed response.
Therein is much much food for thought.
You have graciously provided the most cogent explanation and history for this gold/oil conundrum I've yet encountered.
Gandalf the White
ANOTHER chance to get "IT" at a price that will never be seen again !
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0NOT to worry about the US$ Index -- The US Government has learned from the Japanese on how to MANIPULATE it well !
This, together with the CABAL playing the "HIT THE STOP LOSS ORDERS" on COMEX Gold again --- PROVES to me that the ONLY way to beat them is to get each GOLDHEART to buy more physical GOLD and hold on to it !
<;-)
cockerel1
Dual currency!
It's obvious to me that the real reason to go to a dual currency is to devalue the "local" dollar, while maintaining the "international" dollar at ?????

If that is the case, my dumb questions are these:

Will the SM quote numbers in both denominations?
Will dual interest rates be instituted as well?
Will currency markets quote both rates?
Will either be tied to gold and or silver?
Can a dual currency system work?
Why not just cede to gold and silver as the only international currencies? (How stupid! Cannot manipulate!)
Does any of the answers to these questions matter?

Seems to me "Pandora's Box" will become America's nightmare!
Solomon Weaver
The color of money
Hi folks....most of you may not recognize me...but I was once sitting often at the round table...and listen in on occassion.

This topic of the new design on American Dollars seems to raise the blood pressure levels in the hearts of conspiracy theorists.

The problem I see is that in the new digital age, where money is often never even printed, and in the recent years so well narrated by Doug Noland in his weekly Credit Bubble Bulletin, where non-banks such as Freddie Mac can create new "dollar denominated credit", the numbers of dollars actually printed with presidents faces on them is some small percent of the total money supply.

Given the number of people I see writing a check or using a credit card for a simple purchase under $5, I can only assume that many people float around using almost only digital cash.

Some many years ago, I briefly subscribed to a newsletter, and ever since, I seem to be on the list of the Weiss Report, so I get these glossy brochure booklets...well, in the last months, Mr. Weiss seems to be strongly opinioned that the US Banking system has now been hit with so many non-performing loans, large corporate bankruptcies, deteriorating consumer credit performance, and huge derivative exposure....and of course, these banks have transferred much of their risk off to other banks in Europe and Asia. I know Mr. Weiss needs to use flambouyant language to attract new subscribers, but his advertised predictions for the US Banking system are dire.

One great problem facing governments and their central bank shareholders, is the in each fiat currency created, they must maintain parity between bank deposits (digital) and cash (faces of famous heros and landmarks). I, as an American, have personally lived for many years in Switzerland and a year in Japan, and my observation is that the USA is the nation which has the least amount of cash paper in daily use.

Now, remember, a "collapse" in the US banking system does not destroy the wiring and computer terminals over which the digital cash transfers flow....but it slows down or stops the process of interbank guarantees. One obvious effect will be temporary caps on the sizes of transfers, and longer delays on transfers of larger amounts of funds.

Just like a modest tightening of oil supplies in the late 70s caused Americans to start lining up every day to top off their tanks (causing lines), any serious and extended ill confidence in the US banking system will cause many honest and simple minded Americans to line up at ATMs....if simply for the reason that many vendors are "temporarily not accepting checks". It is prudent for our government to stockpile bills for this occassion, IF ONLY TO ASSURE OUR CITIZENS THAT ENOUGH REAL CASH RESERVES EXIST TO FACILITATE SMALL HAND TRADE, SUCH AS PURCHASING GAS AND GROCERIES.

So, if the US Government would establish such a special printing program, it would certainly cost them an immense amount of money to build the extra printing presses, purchase the extra paper and inks, etc. Is it any surprise that they would simultaneously introduce additional printing techniques which are already used for years by the Swiss and now found in the Euro bills??

The US also faces another conundrum in that its domestic currency is also the currency of its national economy....in the past it has allowed Americans to "spend" the first dollars printed. But, in the meantime, it has become a unit of financial trade worldwide, and many contracts (business agreements, and derivatives, etc) are denominated in dollars. When some country in Southeast Asia or South America defaults, and their currency collapses, it is usually the locals (and speculative foreign investors) who suffer. Interestingly, many who survive are those who have deposits or contracts denominated in dollars (and those who fall often have dollar debts to pay). Even if certain American-haters think that a dollar collapse would be just, since it is also not only a reserve currency, but the dominant international "contract" currency, as the dollar falls to zero value it will create global chaos.

I am certainly only an amateur economist, but it occurs to me that there DOES need to be a dollar in which the US citizens may do business (just like a Japanese can use yen, a Russian rubels, a German Euromarks, a French Eurofrancs).

The world must face that massive amounts of dollar based bonds (and contracts) are going to become higher risk instruments, and they need to trade down to junk-bond status (which would invert the usual relationship where "spreads" are measured above US Treasuries.

Just like a bankruptcy court will allow a productive citizen or corporation to file a bankruptcy, and the outcome is usually a restructuring and firesale, but the defaulting party will usually have some obligation to service a residual debt (creating a cash flow to the risk taker holding the debt), the world, if it cannot find a way to allow the American dollar (government) to declare bankruptcy, without completely destroying the productive economy in America (which is the party that must service that debt) will only become empoverished, as much capital is burned.

The balance needs now to tip, so that America can actually produce enough new value in the world, so that we can accumulate foreign currencies, and use those foreign currencies to "purchase back" or retire the government debt we now have.

Can we not see that there must be two US dollars? So that Gresham's Law may work? It is not right that Americans continue to use their reserve/contract currency status to have the world subsidize their lives, but the Americans could be correct in creating a "dear dollar" in which they may rebuild their economy, to pay back the "poor dollars of yesteryears debt". The only other option is for an almost complete default of US dollar denominated debt and contracts....would would temporarily empoverish the entire world (and would let the Americans off scott free).

So, conspiracy theorists....let's keep an eye on the new dollar....and raise our voices that it should be backed by gold...as many other nations will soon do.

Poor old Solomon
Alberta Rose
New U.S. Currency
My husband and I are going on a cruise in November, starting in Ft. Lauderdale and cruising through the Caribbean, stopping in South American and Mexican ports and finishing in Los Angeles. What do we do about U.S.currency? We usually carry travellers cheques denominated in U.S. dollars. Will our travellers cheques be in the new currency or the old? If we get stuck with new bills, will they be negotiable in other countries? Should we use Canadian dollars for the cheques? One more thing to worry about--travelling is becoming quite a challenging business.
ski
(No Subject)
Pizz rave of yesterday
Pizz, after reading your rave and rant yesterday (I am in agreement), an easier way of expressing it comes to mind.

Much of the world, and especially the United States, is entering a period of time in which CIVILIZATION WILL GO BACKWARDS.

So be it.....
Pizz
What dual Currency?
We change the design and color on the bills and everyone starts to panic.

About the only thing the currency change over will accomplish is to shake some cash out of the underground economy, increase the velocity of money a bit, increase tax revenues slightly as untaxed money works its way back into the system - and slightly slow down the counterfiters.

We can't even come up with an accurate system to keep track of one currency, let alone two. We need to attract capital into this country, so we're going to devalue "foreign" dollars and issue a new currency so as to be able to keep our current "borrowed" standard of living? Foreigners are going to rush to buy our debt instraments with old dollars in return for what? Or did we start to run surpluses again and I missed it? We will continue to pay notes and bonds with old dollars? Who would buy any more? Would we use new dollars? Then how would they be an internal currency? Heck, the tax code would look like a kindergarden primer compared to the mess a two tier currency in the world of computers would generate.

The dollar is going to depreciate on it's own, and it's done it before. Gold is going to go up, and will continue to do so until some sort of equilibrium is reached. When the US voters finally get fed up with the politicians and the Fed printing presses, and the rampant inflation that is coming, we'll get back to hard backing of the currency.

Til then, it will be a pretty wild roller-coaster ride as all the special interest, hedge funds, etc., try to extricate themselves from predicament after predicament.

Course I could be wrong and Planet X is real, and the new currency will be used as we roll what's left of civilization back to the stone age - I haven't read yet that you can't start a good fire with the new stuff. . .

Pizz
TownCrier
European gold reserves, slightly lighter yet growing in value
Last week, on Sept 30 we set the stage for the latest information on reserves to come out of Euroland this week. Briefly, I posted:

ECB foreign exchange reserves tell a tale worth hearing.....

....net position in foreign currency has been allowed to dwindle in value by another 400 million euro in the natural course of business during the past week.... At the same time, there was a 57 million euro reduction in gold and gold receivables from a 5 tonne sale...

....today's [Sept 30] quarterly revaluation, when the extent is revealed next week, will largely obscure these values when the dollar's quarterly losses (of two cents; partially offset by yen gains of 7) are set beside gold gains of over 25 euro per ounce. [end of recap]

Belgian's observations are correct. You typically don't see this mark-to-market revaluation information presented for general consumption anywhere else but here. And the time has arrived once again, with yesteday's release of the consolidated financial statement of the Eurosystem, to discuss the effects of the latest quarterly revaluation.

During this past quarter, the Eurosystem's net position in foreign currency has been allowed to diminish in size from approximately EUR 198.7 billion to EUR 192.2 billion. I say "allowed to" because the bulk of this was simply a result of portfolio adjustments whereas EUR 2.9 billion of this decline came from the quarterly revaluation (as each dollar in eurosystem reserves lost value by 0.017 euro ((1.7 cents)) during the quarter, while the yen enjoyed marginal gains).

Meanwhile, (despite some homeopathic gold sales), the value of eurosystem gold reserves rose over the quarter by a net 10.8 billion euro, from 119.980 billion euro in value at the first week of July to 130.822 billion euro today. The quarterly gold revaluation was itself responsible for a 11.1 billion euro gain, as gold rose in the market from a June 30 fix near 302.05 euro per ounce to a September 30 fix near 329.99 euro per ounce.

It was not long ago when the book value of Eurosystem gold reserves were just one third of total, whereas now, due to foreign currency DEvaluations and gold RE(up)valuations, the gold portion of international reserve value within the Eurosystem has now taken over a 40 pecent position of the total as detailed here.

You too can follow this easy example -- walk "in the footsteps of giants".

R.
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
Monkey see, Monkey do - New currency on the way
http://electroniciraq.net/news/1138.shtmlReport, IRIN, 6 October 2003

The smell of burning 250-dinar notes - the Iraqi currency - permeates the air at the Central Bank just a little more than a week before the new currency is to go into circulation. Workers around the central lobby are busy counting new notes in various denominations, which will be available in banks on 15 October.

Since March, Iraqis have been buying and selling virtually all their goods using the purple and blue 250-dinar notes bearing Saddam Hussein's portrait. The notes are the equivalent of about 10 US cents at the current exchange rate. Because banknote printing presses were stolen from the Central Bank, notes of all other denominations are considered suspect by merchants - even a 10,000-dinar note worth about US $3.

Introducing new notes will help stabilise the currency and stop counterfeiting, according to Muhammad Salman Muhammad, the Central Bank governor, who recently unveiled images of the new notes and their security features. The new notes were identical to those in circulation before 1990, Muhammad said. None of them pictures Saddam Hussein.

"Iraq's currency has faced many difficulties over the years", Muhammad told IRIN in the capital, Baghdad. "This currency will be hard for counterfeiters to duplicate. It will also stabilise the general level of prices", he added.
The Hoople
Ski
Regarding "entering a peroiod of time in which civilization will go backwards" - I would argue by many measures which a civilization measures wealth (knowledge, transportation, crime, health) we have been going backwards for many years now. A common Civil War soldier could write more eloquently than most college educated men today. The dumbing down transcends nearly all endeavors. Transportation has become insufferable gridlock, public transportation was vastly superior decades ago. We have 2 million people in prisons and still crime rates are alarming. Diseases such as Alzheimers, diabetes and cancer are nearly parabolic when graphed on a chart. Civilization is going backwards; it is accelerating the trend. Few people connect how when the Federal Reserve was formed in 1913 the inflation and debasement of currency it spawned has ravaged society for almost a century. We are all the poorer for their greed.
Simply Me
@Solomon Weaver
Poor ol' Solomon, good to hear from your words of wisdom again! You're perspective is right on.

I like a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone, but the idea that the US could keep a two currency system under control is as ridiculous trusting the INS to control our borders!

All paper...white(contracts),green or pink...will burn and only gold will survive the flames.
Simply
specie-man
New US Currency
The Bureau of Engraving & Printing Fort Worth facility has tight security, but it is not new and it is not a "secret". The Fort Worth facility has been producing US currency, along with the BEP Washington facility, for some time. Take some Federal Reserve notes out of your wallet. Look at the lower right corner of the front. There will be a small letter, followed by one or more even-smaller numbers. These identify the printing plate and the position on that plate where the bill came from. If the plate ID is preceded by a small "FW", then the note was printed in Fort Worth. Otherwise, it came from Washington DC.

Regarding the "dual-currency" theories -
In the past, when new "anti-counterfeiting" designs were introduced, they started with the $100 and worked their way down the denomination scale. Curiously, they are starting with the $20 bill this time. So instead of starting with the highest denomination, they are starting with the most commonly-used denomination. Why ? $100 bills are used more by foreigners than by Americans (three out of every four $100 bills ever printed are currently outside US borders). $20 bills are used more by Americans than forigners (it is the most common denomination in day-to-day US public transactions).

My theory is that they want the new bills to stay here in the US. Placing any type of exchange controls on currency could instigate a panic. So instead, the new bill is issued in the denomination that is most likely to stay home.

Could this be a prelude to placing exchange controls on the old bills ? The net effect would be that old bills (mostly overseas) would be devalued, while the new bills (mostly domestic) would retain their value. This would, in effect, diminish US financial obligations to foreigners. They would have to make a whole bunch more stuff and sell it to us to replace their old "worthless" bills with new bills.

But I suspect, if there is a hidden motive to this currency change, it is to catch international money launderers, drug dealers, etc.


Gondolin
Druid, US Ambassadors Speech in NZ
I seem to recall that when New Zealand, then a member of ANZUS voted to go Nuclear Free that they were not long after shunted out of the Anzus Alliance and indeed had a degree of trade sanctions levied against them by the US as punishment for their temerity.

I don't believe that speeches like the one the Ambassador was about to deliver will sway New Zealand policy or New Zealanders. Their belief in the UN as the mechanism of International Policy is firm, as has been their conviction to join UN endeavours on every occasion.

Further, I don't believe it any coincidence that the Prime Minister Helen Clark went on a whirwind tour of Europe, including State visits with Jaques Chirac in April this year, following the decision not to join the Coalition invasion of Iraq.
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
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Pizz
Simply Me
On our borders - Went into Canada from the Eastern Washington side (low traffic) last weekend for the first time since 911.

Did not have to show any ID going in, and when I came back into the US I handed them both my wife's and my passport. They didn't even open them, but were concerned about the case and a half of Canadian wine that we purchased. Can only bring in a liter a piece duty free, so I had to park my car and go into the customs building and pay 2.35 duty.

Our borders are about as tight as a bucket with no bottom. . .

Pizz
Gondolin
Various responses to valued replies
Belgian(110064),thanks again. Your comments on developments re the euro always further reinforce my belief that things are a changing, although those shackles are still very heavy on Gold still.

Town Crier and Cyclist (110071), thanks for the reference to the links graphing POG in various currencies, makes for interesting comparisons between various currencies.

Cor Tauri 110081, I must agree with GABs comment on your post. Thats copied, pasted and saved for future reference any time I try to explain the state of affairs to someone else in my somewhat stilted manner and need a bit of assistance. Well written indeed!

Steady (110045), Smeagol (110044), Without trying to start mad conspiracy theories, perhaps the fact that the word 'dollar' does not appear on fed reserve notes is so that when/if the FRN plummets in value Treasury can turn around and say hey, that's not a dollar, a dollar is valued at $42.22 against an ounce of gold- even if POG has rocketed against all other paper.

Someone could write a great spy/ thriller book on these events- whether it be based just on the ACTUAL facts of whats happening, or taking it to the extremes of conspiracy. Hmmm, someone's probably penning as we write here now.... Who said all paper is worthless.... what am I waiting for!



Great Albino Bat
Don't blame the FED, blame OIL!

Allow this old GAB to present a theory about our times.

As Black Blade notes in his (two part?) series on "Hydrocarbon Man" - (in the archives, which I have not searched) petroleum has changed the face of civilization in the last 100 years.

Oil was in use in the late 1800's but it really got going on a huge scale, after WWII.

Oil use has not only raised the standard of living of most of the world, it has had its effect on the social tissue of all nations. I don't recall that Black Blade got into this. If so, and you remember, then just skip what I say.

It was in the 20th Century that societies began to fall apart.

Certainly, there were wars before the 20th Century, but their nature was quite different. Soldiers fought soldiers; losing generals handed in their swords and were treated like gentlemen.

During the 20th Century, we have witnessed a progressive breakdown of societies all over the world. There has been a radical "dehumanization" of humanity.

But, notice that this has taken place along with the increasing use of petroleum, or oil for short.

I submit that the increasing use of oil by humanity, has had the effect of injecting energy into humanity as an integral system. The use of oil has meant that each individual human has had greater power over nature, greater freedom of movement, both of himself and of things which he wants to move.

All humans together, are vastly more "powerful" than they were 100 years ago. By using oil, they are releasing ENERGY into the human system, regardless of national frontiers.

The human race, over millions of years (I do believe that humans have been around for millions of years) or thousands, if that is the time-frame you prefer, have never had such use of energy. We have not been prepared for the release of such a vast amount of energy into our environment.

Perhaps we could say that the beast which is the FED, is a consequence of OIL, and not the prime cause of so much evil attributed to it.

The human race appears to have gone quite mad, and I would attribute this condition to the all-out use of OIL. Our use of oil is destroying us, it's driving us crazy. Everything moves so fast - because of oil's energy released into our societies.

But, as we read "Hydrocarbon Man", we can see that relief is in sight within the next few decades. Oil use has probably peaked, in my humble opinion. If not, it will necessarily peak in ten or twenty years at the most.

After that, as we come off the peak use of oil, things will begin to slow down; slowly at first, and then the brakes will come on harder and harder, as oil becomes more and more expensive.

Gradually, humanity will regain its compusure. Our age will be thought about for a thousand years and more. It will never be duplicated, nor even approached, in its grandeur, along with its dehumanization.

As we slow down, we will have time to talk again to our fellow humans. We will once again, gather at the village store to whittle on a piece of wood while listening to the sages expound their views. Old people will once again be treated with respect and awe. Reading will flourish once again - plenty of time for it, "'cause we ain't goin' nowheres!"

Travel will hold great mystery, and only a very priviledged few will ever travel around the world, or go more than 20 miles from their birthplace, as was the condition of humans before, say, 1820.

Oil has brought us magnificence and madness, together.

Hubbert's Peak marks more than the depletion of world oil; it marks the reestablishment of the natural order - the Tao - which has been violated the past hundred years.

The transition will be painful, but beyond, lies the recovery of human nature, for humans. And yes, gold and silver will be part of that recovery.

Rich guano from the GAB. Thanks for reading, and comments welcome.





Ten Bears
Dave Lewis.. today..good read
http://www.chaos-onomics.com/morn.htmOct 9: "The procyclical character of the foreign exchange component of global international reserves and the failure of domestic monetary authorities to use stable policy rules to guide the more discretionary approach to monetary management that replaced the more rigid rules-based gold standard of the earlier era are key for explaining the developments in credit markets that helped to set the stage for the Great Depression. This particular constellation of monetary, financial and technological factors was what allowed the credit boom of the 1920s to develop as it did. We would be prepared to make similar arguments about the macroeconomic cycle of the 1990s." - BIS Working Paper #137


Great Albino Bat
Allow me a few more comments to add to my previous post...

The French Revolution at the end of the 18th Century had a great destructive effect upon the constitution of many societies in the world; it posited a recreation of all society according to the Light of Reason. Monarchy and Aristocracy were not considered reasonable, as based only on unjustified privilege, and so they were destroyed, along with other venerable institutions.

Then, beginning in the 19th Century, the revolutionary and rationalistic spirit was taken up by August Comte (1798-1857) and his colleague, Saint Simon. Comte gave the name "Positivism" to his philosophy. According to it, all society should be PLANNED, and not left to "chance". As a tool, statistics came into its own. Comte invented the very word, "Socialism".

Had it not been for OIL (!!) all these visionary plans would have remained the pet theories of a few dissatisfied intellectuals, mouldered for a while, and then been forgotten in the "dust bin of history". But...

OIL came along. Oil improved the standard of living. It increased incomes enormously, for masses of people. Along with the increase in incomes, came the increase in TAXES. And also, the increase in FINANCIAL POWER. (Societ� General of France, if I am not mistaken, was founded for the purpose of furthering DEVELOPMENT, the bane of our age)

Now governments and banks, not only individuals, became powerful. The wealth of their subjects provided governments with TAXES in ever increasing amounts. Governments proceeded to carry out the planning mandate envisioned by Comte. With fractional banking, they did it with a will.

Planning became the rage, and still is. In the U.S., the popular imagination was stirred as by no other book, by reading Bellamy's (1897) "Looking Backward", a novel placed in Boston in the year 2000, where the hero of the novel wakes up after a long trance-like sleep. He sees what PLANNING has achieved. And what he saw, of Boston as imagined in the year 2000, is a lot like the present day, but without the perception of the accompanying sinister realities.

Bellamy's projected Boston in 2000 was Paradise on Earth, literally. This gave a great boost to the idea that governments should IMPROVE people and actively organize them, an idea utterly at odds with the Founding Fathers' vision of a country where the people were to be left alone to work out their lives for themselves, with a minimum of government.

OIL provided the fuel for socialism, for planning, for the Welfare State. Oil brought us not only magnificence, but madness, as I just said.

OIL empowered the visionary thinkers of the 19th and 20th Centuries to saddle us with their Utopian dreams.

The decline of oil production and consumption, will surely bring us back to our senses. There is ground for Hope.

Excuse the rant, please. The GAB
Topaz
Bonds, Gold and the Dollar.
http://www.futuresource.com/charts/multicharts.asp?symbols=TYXY%2CFVXY%2CDX1%21%2CGC1%21.=D&varminutes=&bartype=line&bardensity=LOW&r=&go.x=12&go.y=10Are we witnessing a sea-change with our protagonists? In prior reversals the Cash $ has rallied much stronger than this, indicating a flight from Bonds into something other than Cash/PaperGold...Stocks? ...Nah! Physical maybe! The upward pressure on DX is clearly lacking at present and we'll know soon enough if the LongBond works higher than 5.4%.
nummus aureus
Sir Solomon Weaver
A golden cup is hoisted in honor of your return.
Mayhap Other and Another old Friends of this table will speak again.
melda laure
Financial Power, food for thought.
GABWhat is financial power, may I ask? I have my own opinion, but maybe I should get yours first.

Interestingly, the power of fiat is the power to inflate away its value. Its power is dissipative, rather than genitive. Gold on the other hand is more like energy, it is static, neither growing nor diminishing. Power, energy, these I understand, but financial power?

I'll offer a hint, and a longer post later: beginning in 1492, a veritable mountain of gold started making its way eastward from the "new" world to the old. This, as we know, caused much more creeping deflation than had been the case up to that time. Eventually something ELSE changed as well; something else came with the gold.... Come come now, surely all those hobbits around Gandalf know the answer. We know that eventually, the rising technology of fossil energy allowed cheap energy to be transformed into cheap "work". Modern deflation (at least up until 1913) is a product of technology, investment and cheap energy. Sadly in our time, only the first of these seems to survive (the present paper chase cannot be properly called investment, even an outfit like amazon seems to burn cash rather than earn it).
steady
ecoism -scene one -take two!
Ecoism

well les see if i cant type better, and organise my thoughts in a way that makes reading them worthwhile!

Thanks for the encouragement lady!

Ecosim is an idea spreading amongs a segemt of the earths population. the majority of these followers happen to be gold bugs but not all are, ie it is not a prerequiste.

what is the idea behind ecoism.

the idea behind ecoism is that each individual is responsible for his or her own financial integrity.
you may think well everyone does that now, but you see in ecoism the goal is to be a positive unit of account, or in other words a revenue stream to you rather than the bank. Yes it may be difficult not to use the bank but ecoism belives the less you let the banks handle your capital the better off you are since they charge you to use your money. ecoism is an understanding of where wealth can be preserved and the true value of fiat script.Further more besides an understanding ecoism is those who are taking action now .

In a way it is similar to nationalism
both are or did have there birth during times of war. natioalism finds its roots in the 100 year war(1330-1453) which awakend the french nationalism. a lil closer during the late 1840s conditions existed that allowed for nationalism to flourish. in 1848 it did, across the european continent. the effect was removal of certain political entities and replacement with a new regime nationalistic political regime.

the same conditions are reappearing now , ( economic maladies, poor employment ,and all the others that you all know about so i woint go into them)today conditions also exist socially for ecoism to rise up and spread not only across the continent but planet wide simply because every human understands money now, its the nature of the system.
ecoism isnt against credit as credit when applied properly has its place.

unlike nationalism ecoism isnt so narrowminded to be confined to artifical lines drawn on a map or a respector of fences( hi again israel) Rather than seeking the benifit of a nation (nationalism) ecoism seeks the benifit of the individual thru a more liberal possibly even free gold market. where each individual can save there wealth in a currency that isnt subjected to central bank interventions or printing presses rolling at such an incredible speed that one tiny spark could set teh entie place on fire, or even digital entries that compound the number of fractionalized dollars floating around in digital land.ecosism is about individual holding there wealth in a tangible asset soething whose size , shape and weight can be measured..
so the individual attracting gold to himself will also benifit the nation in the long run .

unlike mercantilism which very wrongly assumed that economies could only grow at the expense of other economies ( dont we still see that outdated concept but just in a different form today thru currency devaluation ie hurting one nations floating value of there unit of account to enhance your economic advantage over that said unoit of account)where ecoism assumes that all economies could grow without hurting each otherif all trade imbalances where once again paid in gold. similar to what the dinar is re-establishing right now.
as economies are made up of individual business and people so in treality we are all hurting each other. ecoism proposes to call a truce before all paper currencies currencys trade at or near there true value.

just like mercantilism ecoism is about attracting gold to the nation, but this time thru the individual( hello china) for as we know and understand gold has an inverse relationship with how its priced right now. so ecoism knows that the nation that has the most people holding gold will benifit the most, for the mass of the masses will out weigh the mass of the central banks and those who have the gold make the rules. ecoism recognise that and envcourages others to join in preserving yourself and in the future your nation state standard of living.

see ecoism is just developing its an idea that trys to express what is happening and what will continue to happen at a quicker paces as time progresses and the idea spreads to the four corners of this planet.


ecoism is the understanding of the monetary system makeup and the unprecidented imbalences in that system. furthermore ecoism is teh belife that a return to an honest money will in the long run benifit the planet. Since ecoism is new, and somehow due to modern technology was given a second life even before being born, ecoism isnt sure what will make up that type of monetary system.
will the money be based on a basket of commodities? oil/ grain/ gold/ water? or will it be made up of a gold standard. who knows?

see ecoism is what is happening right here right now. and i think i can rightfully say its origins come form this fourm as its impact is being felt world wide. those who have been here for 4 or all 5 years must certainy recognize that the mainstream media is using lots of words terms that where or have been used here first. the signs are every where.
From this site to the world!

now people here about change. People read about an orderly rather than unorderly drop in the dollar and begin to think (the seeds of ecoism) of what is going on , what do i do to preserve my wealth? Like thoughts a ecoism is a fluid thing because its an idea and the idea isnt cast in stone it cant be it has to be tested, thesis anti thesis thesis untill it turns into a truth as it is accepted as a reality and manifests itself into consciousness by the human race!

Ecoism sounds like echo. and comes from eco nomics ism is because its an idea whos time has arrived. in addition its just an idea that may or may not be. but its one that is my intreptation as to what is see developing in this world.
Dollar Bill
*>*.........+
FED Bereneke and Ken's excellent learning adventure


"In my talk today, I will report the results of research that I have done on this topic with Kenneth Kuttner of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, as well as the findings of some related work done both within and outside the Federal Reserve System.1 The views I will express today, however, are my own and not necessarily those of my colleagues on the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) or the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.

In our research, Kuttner and I asked two questions. First, by how much do changes in monetary policy affect equity prices? As you will see, we focus on changes in monetary policy that are unanticipated by market participants because anticipated changes in policy should already be discounted by stock market investors and, hence, are unlikely to affect equity prices at the time they are announced. We find an effect of moderate size: Monetary policy matters for the stock market but, on the other hand, it is not one of the major influences on equity prices.

Our second question, both more interesting and more difficult, is, why do changes in monetary policy affect stock prices? We come up with a rather surprising answer, at least one that was surprising to us. We find that unanticipated changes in monetary policy affect stock prices not so much by influencing expected dividends or the risk-free real interest rate, but rather by affecting the perceived riskiness of stocks. A tightening of monetary policy, for example, leads investors to view stocks as riskier investments and thus to demand a higher return to hold stocks. For a given path of expected dividends, a higher expected return can be achieved only by a fall in the current stock price. As we will see, this finding has interesting implications for several issues, including the role of stock prices in transmitting the effects of monetary policy actions to the broader economy and the potential effectiveness of monetary policy in "pricking" putative bubbles in the stock market. I will come back to these issues at the end of my talk. I start, however, with the problem of measuring the effect of monetary policy on the stock market."

How reassureing, a couple guys winging policy on the fly as they learn(guess).

Dollar Bill
*>*.........+
Greetings Great Albino Bat, your post on oil brought up some interesting thoughts in my head, thanks for that.
The Tao, well, that has been disproven by the pesky troublesome side of life. No one gets to be trouble free. Even using money location and smarts wont accomplish that.
If there werent a god mandateing that, then there would be at least one random guy who could escape troubles. So rather than a Tao balance mechanism at work, run by a buddhist style oneness, we more likely have a flaw mechanism at work that makes sure we dont solve all the issues and make utopia.

I guess god likes the struggle.


specie-man
steady - ecoism (& borrowing to buy PMs)
I agree with your assessment of banks. If you are in debt, then the bank is like a "middle man" between you and everything else.

I recommend cutting out the middle man.

I tell people, that if they have a 401K and a mortgage, they should cash out the 401K , pay the fees/fines/taxes, and pay off the mortgage. Cut out the middle man ! Then take it easier in life knowing that you have no debt and don't have to work so hard. It would then be relatively easy to save for retirement (since there would be no more mortgage payments). They look at me like I'm crazy.

Now here is a more difficult question to answer. Should a person sell their precious metals holdings to pay off debt ? If the debt is high-interest credit cards, then I say absolutely yes. If the debt is a reasonable-rate mortgage (~ 5%), then the question is a lot more difficult.

What percentage rate would be the cutoff ? In other words, if you were able to borrow money to purchase precious metals, would you do it, and what is the maximum interest rate you would pay to do so ?


Dollar Bill
*>*.........+
I heard today that Mexico does not have mortgages available for people. If you want property, you must pay in cash.
It was on financial news today and I heard it 3 times.
Anyone know why Mexico (and presumably other countries), would be in this shape?
Camel
"Buddhist style oneness"?
Sorry Dollar Bill, but there is no such concept in
Buddhism. Buddhists seek emptyness not oneness.
Smeagol
That 42 dollar Quesstion haunts
(from Gondolin): "Without trying to start mad conspiracy theories, perhaps the fact that the word 'dollar' does not appear on fed reserve notes -"

Eh? Hmmm, we just pulled one from our pocketses and and it does say 'one dollar' on it, unless you sspeak of other notes?

" -is so that when/if the FRN plummets in value Treasury can turn around and say hey, that's not a dollar, a dollar is valued at $42.22 against an ounce of gold- even if POG has rocketed against all other paper."

That suggessts to us that maybe ssomeday as the paper is burning the Treasury will throw the Fed into the Fire too, and recognize a 'constitutionally valued' dollar again, we hopes?

S.

P.S. to the Lady Grateful
GratefulForGold (10/08/03; 23:16:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 110059)
Thanks you, Lady, for your kindness. Shortly after we found this great Forum, there was at a time when there were many from the Story here, and a Contesst, and sso of course we HAD to join in (grin).

Now Smeagol is on the side of Giants and Good and Gold, and helps perhaps even if only in little ways. If they tires of us, jusst ssay the word, and Smeagol will use English and Grammar to make possts that look like the others.
Cavan Man
Dollar Bill
That is simply the financial culture. Always been that way. They do not live in an aadvanced credit society like in US.
AEL
Fine Rants, Great Albino!

Along similar lines, here are excerpts from an article that
I think you'll love (and others here might enjoy)....

SUMMARY:

"Oil is a resource that anesthetizes thought, blurs vision,
corrupts... Oil fills us with such arrogance that we begin
believing we can easily overcome such unyielding obstacles as
time... Oil creates the illusion of a completely changed life,
life without work, life for free."

---------------------

pdf file:
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/EnvirPol/WP/01-Watts.pdf

html file:
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:EMZOfT-HwMoJ:globetrotter.berkeley.edu/EnvirPol/WP/01-Watts.pdf&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

EXCERPTS FROM:

BERKELEY WORKSHOP ON ENVIRONMENTAL POLITICS

WORKING PAPERS

WP 99-1

PETRO-VIOLENCE

SOME THOUGHTS ON COMMUNITY, EXTRACTION, AND POLITICAL ECOLOGY

Michael J. Watts

Professor of Geography
Director, Institute of International Studies
University of California, Berkeley

Oil, more than any other commodity, illustrates both the
importance and the mystification of natural resources in the
modern world. -- Fernando Coronil, The Magical State, 1997, p. 49

[.....]

I want to offer some thoughts on the violence that so often
attends the extraction of oil [and necessarily on the ecological
devastation which is its handmaiden]; what I'll call for the
purposes of this workshop petro-violence. My purpose is not to
offer, obviously, a sort of commodity determinism -- petroleum is
more violent than coal, or oil extraction breeds Muslim radicalism
(Iran) while copper breeds evangelical cronyism (Zambia) -- but to
take seriously the idea that the biophysical properties of Nature,
of a natural resource, matter in both palpable and analytical
ways. It is both difficult and artificial to distill out the
narrowly defined biological and geophysical properties of "crude"
or "raw" petroleum from the social relations (institutional
practices, ideological associations and meanings, forms of
extraction, production and use) of petroleum, a commodity not only
saturated in the mythos of the rise of the West but also
indisputably one of the most fundamental building blocks of
twentieth century industrial capitalism ("hydrocarbon
capitalism"). But I do believe that a commodity focus --
particularly on a part of Nature which has the density and weight
of black gold -- offers a way of thinking about the intersection
of environment and violence: both biological violence, as it were,
perpetrated upon the biophysical world, and the social violence,
criminality and degeneracy associated with the genesis of
petro-wealth and with its ecological destructiveness.

[.....]

THE NATURE OF PETROLEUM: A FAUSTIAN SPECTACLE OF ILLUSION AND
DECEIT

The spectacle is not a collection of images, but a social relation
among people, mediated by images. Guy Debord, 1978, para. 4

Oil creates the illusion of a completely changed life, life
without work, life for free.... The concept of oil expresses
perfectly the eternal human dream of wealth achieved through lucky
accident...In this sense oil is a fairy tale and like every fairy
tale a bit of a lie.

[.....]

[Oil] is a filthy, foul smelling liquid that squirts obligingly up
into the air and falls back to earth as a rustling shower of
money.

[.....]

Oil fills us with such arrogance that we begin believing we can
easily overcome such unyielding obstacles as time. With oil.... I
[Shah Pahlavi] will create a second America in a generation!

[.....]

Oil is a resource that anesthetizes thought, blurs vision,
corrupts....Look at the ministers from oil countries, how high
they hold their heads, what a sense of power....

[.....]

And oil's relation to the Mosque? What vigor, glory and
significance this new wealth has given its religion, Islam, which
is enjoying a period of accelerated expansion and attracting new
crowds of faithful.

[.....]

Oil kindles extraordinary emotions and hopes, since oil is above
all a great temptation. It is the temptation of ease, wealth,
fortune, power. [But] oil, though powerful, has its defects.
Ryzsard Kapucinski, 1982, p. 34-35

[.....]

In a rather shopping-list sort of way, I want to identify eight
properties of oil, to begin at least to address the question of
the mystification of petroleum (and of Nature).2 [2. I have
written about these properties elsewhere (Watts 1997, 1994). I
have also pulled upon Terry Karl's book The Paradox of Plenty: Oil
Booms and Petro-States (University of California Press, 1996) and
Fernando Coronil's The Magic State: Nature, Money and Modernity in
Venezeula (University of Chicago Press, 1997).]

OIL IS MONEY [Black Gold]: as surely the most global and
commercially negotiable of commodities, "oil is money" as the
Chair of ARCO once put it (all oil transactions are conducted in
dollars). It is instant wealth -- it is capable of generating
unimaginable wealth in spite of the fact that this is in a sense
quite mysterious. Oil as money/value typically creates an ambition
and enervation -- what one oil commentator called the elan vital
of growth -- appropriate to the magnitude of oil wealth (cf. the
Shah's White Revolution).

PETRO-STATE AND NATION: the central idea is taken from Ricardo
Hausman (1981) that oil creates specific forms of state landed
property. This means among other things that nationalized
petroleum produces a state (the owner of the means of production)
which mediates the social relations by which oil is exploited
(concessions, joint ventures etc) and which is simultaneously
granted access to the world market. State landed property
necessarily converts oil into a theatre of struggle in which its
national qualities are paramount -- an "oil nation," "our oil" and
so on.

PETRO-IMPERIALISM [the Faustian pact]: oil is unavoidably an
engagement with some of the largest and most powerful forces of
transnational capital (who show up on the local doorstep) and with
all the contradictions of participating in the world market (boom
and bust). Exploitation of oil is in effect a pact (hardly a
social contract) -- a Faustian bargain -- in which a national
project (modernity, development, La Gran Venezuela) -- exchanged
for sovereignty, autonomy, independence, tradition and so on. The
realization of oil monies (through the world market) and the
localization of oil revenues by the state embody this pact. Which
is to say, as the founder of OPEC put it, "oil can bring trouble."

EVACUATIVE EXTRACTION/DESPOLIATION [liquid mobility]: the
territorial quality of oil -- its enclave character -- and the
fact that it has limited local linkage effects (oil is typically
evacuated) produces a peculiar sort of double movement. On the one
hand it literally flows out -- it is lost value in a quite
dramatic way -- and is understood to be of enormous value, and on
the other it is a subterranean (and brilliant) threat ecologically
speaking [it is the subterranean working of telluric forces].

HYPER-CENTRALIZATION [rentier states]: oil has a centralizing
effect (petrodollars rush into the Exchequer) and simultaneously
increases the states dependence on one commodity. Rents become the
basis of politics -- this is what Karl (1997) means when she says
that public expenditure displaces statecraft. Oil rents irrigate
the body politic as a way of purchasing some form of state
legitimacy or quiescence. The public contracts/tender -- always
massively inflated in a way that cost-overruns are politically
desirable (the more costly the better) -- becomes the metric of
political choice. The states degenerates into a prebend (hence the
common refrain that petro-states are especially corrupt, or
"flabby').

PETRO-FETISHISM/PETRO-MAGIC [the el Dorado effect]: oil as a world
of illusion. People become wealthy without effort; fabulous waste
and fiscal madness (Venezuela's factories with nothing in them,
Nigerian iron and steel produced at costs 7 times more than the
prevailing market price). The ephemerality of money -- boom to
bust, here today gone tomorrow; wealth which scorches the fingers,
signifies the loss of the soul. In the popular imagination oil
produces all manner of extraordinary magical events and mythic
properties (in Nigeria the trade in body parts, in Ecuador new
forms of evangelicalism, in Venezuela syncretic cults). Among the
politicians, bureaucrats and ruling classes oil is equally mythic
-- "to propel [us] into the twentieth century" as President Carlos
Perez put it.

VALORIZATION OF SPACE/TERRITORY: Insofar as oil has a point of
origin and is unavoidably a national commodity (a patrimony), it
is to be expected that the transformative potential of oil (how
the oil is to be sown in the economy as Coronil describes it in
Venezuela) invites a debate over who has claims over the resource
itself. Here the valorization of territory turns on the
contradictions between state imposed spaces (the concession) and
local/indigenous territorial rights (Ogoni land or the Huaorani
Ethnic Reserve). The fact that these two territorial claims embody
different property claims and rights (national versus customary
law say) necessarily instigates a debate over how the parts
constitute the whole, how the regional and local relate to the
national. Oil seems to always invoke the spatial lexicon in which
the Nation figures prominently. To the extent that oil production
happens to occur on lands populated by minorities, territorial
disputes are inevitably about identity, rights and citizenship.

MONOECONOMANIA [the Dutch Disease]: oil produces what Karl (1997)
calls the "petrolization" of society: the economy becomes a sort
of a one-horse town, and oil rents reinforce particular patterns
of class power (a nomenklatura, patterns of regional/ethnic
political machines etc), and the boom produces depressive effects
in other non-oil sectors (typically the collapse of agriculture
and of other forms of state revenue generation, i.e. tax
collection, which further deepens the monoeconomic tendencies.

[.....]
Dollar Bill
*>*............+
-"An article in the October 6 issue of U.S. News and World Report was entitled "Home Economics." The newest wrinkle is interest-only mortgages, where your monthly payment never includes any money for repayment of the principal. At the end of the loan, if you borrowed $100,000, you still owe $100,000. In the meantime, you have made monthly payments that are as little as half as big as a conventional mortgage loan, which always had that extra money per month that went toward the outstanding principal"

Thanks Sir Camel, Leave it a guy (like buddha) who is frustrated with not finding any way to merge inside with this "real self" to direct us to do the impossible and seek the "emptyness".

Kind of insulting to the god who evolved a creation over 15 billion years and filled every empty space with something,
for us to be looking for the emptyness !
Cytek
Question for the pro traders on this site
I should re-phrase that because most of the posts i read here and respect are from Pro trades.

Ok,here is what happended to me.

I bought a stock at 27.35 and went to sell it at 28.28 so i entered my limit order to sell and i got a message from my trading site (Ameritrade) that the application server was busy and to try again.

So i placed the sell order agian, but this time it told me i was shorting the stock. I checked my opened orders and there was nothing there. So i sent the order again.

Well what do you know i get my previous sell order at( 500 shares @ 28.35)immediately and then i get a notice that i am short the stock (500 shares @ 28.28) yikes, the same amount.

So if i can put this right, i sold short the shares i had a sell order on and became short the stock all in one trade.
Incredible, i didn't know you could do this. The lucky thing for me is the stock continued to drop and i covered at 27.90.

Can someone please help me out. If you can do this, well i just fell on a strategy. But the question is will it work like this again.

Cytek
Max Rabbitz
Interesting Guano
Cheap energy drives the hairless ape mad. How else could socialism have survived. Yes, but don't excuse completely the bankers from their part. Perhaps like any organism genetically programed to survive and grow these creatures simply did what increased their power while innocents slept, or were making their way home to the Midwest for Christmas while New England banker friends dallied in Washington on that fateful day in 1913. In any case, the huge explosion in human populations made possible by cheap hydrocarbons will likely result in another bottleneck in human populations and evolution at the end of this era. The last one appeared to by about 70,000 years ago when a major volcanic caldera explosion killed off all but a few thousand humans.....at least according to a NOVA program a couple months ago. Let's hope that if there is another bottleneck we come out with a little higher IQ.
GratefulForGold
steady @110114 � "Ecoism"
I appreciate your attempts at re-stating your post!

Admittedly, I have only lightly read it (running late today and many things to do), I think I understand at least some of it and would say, if I were to give it a slogan: "Power to the People!"

Yes, I also believe INDIVIDUAL ownership of gold is, at this point in history, something that governments should encourage (with the caveat that it is not with the intent to "confiscate" said gold down the road...). Any political leader facing a potentially disastrous economic future could foresee that gold (and silver) in citizens� possession could help that citizenry withstand many severe economic downturns. So, without openly telling people "Save your a$$ � go buy GOLD!" (which undermines the very fiat those governments print) these governments, by changing of laws and regulations, or reduction of taxation, etc., could encourage private ownership (a la China). A tricky deal to say the least � protecting the fiat while allowing gold to take its necessary place in the course of human events!

Perhaps you're saying that ecoism is more a matter of INDIVIDUALS taking responsibility and simply doing it, with or without the governments' "blessing" or support. IMO, that is what is happening (thanks to the Internet?). So, in that frame of reference, your ecoism is well underway! I trust the individualistic or "ecoistic" nature of at least a few individuals scattered around the world to also take into account all of the other assets that are necessary to survival (the other commodities, etc.) and they will help in the valuation of all things.

It seems to me that the main thrust of your post relates to individual responsibility. Also the hope of mutually beneficial relationships in trade and commerce rather than thievery. That's where this Forum serves its highest purpose. Admittedly, few amongst us will take that step. But those that do will help ensure their own well being and, hopefully, a broad circle of those they love.

I hope I haven't insulted you with my interpretation of what I think I read in your post! Ecoism is afoot, for sure. The more individuals that decide they can't trust governments or anyone to "take care of them," the more recruits show up at places like USAGOLD! And the USAGOLD Forum certainly does not adhere to nationalistic boundaries!

Thank you for your efforts! Your sincerity shines.

(One more minor suggestion � have you discovered "Spell Check" on your computer? If you click on the "Tool" button up on your tool bar, you come up with Spell Check. It will point out many spelling errors, etc. to you so you can correct them. It doesn't do miracles but it helps!)

My best,

Lady GFG
Druid
Belgian (10/09/03; 03:21:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 110073)
Sir Belgian, I interpret this action more along the same lines you are reasoning. Given the time frame from the early 70's to the present, there has been ample time and opportunity to introduce "Baskins Robbins" flavored "money" to the "sheep" at large. Why now? The activity of counterfeiting is as old as antiquity itself, so please, go sale this bs to some other serf. This one's not buying it.

The credit and fiat monsters worldwide are drunk, loose, delusional and out of control. Now it just so happens that our particular monster is the biggest and most belligerent of them all and is fixing to urinate all over the place leaving many others wet (holding the proverbial bag).

In my mind's eye, I don't think this is a good thing. If the world currency interdependence is destroyed, and it appears the trend lines reflecting this financial outcome are in place, and revert back to the nation state model(or creat a new trading block model), then a dual currency system is the way to go.

If I did not misread the article that I referred to last night, this "new" currency was in addition to what was already out in circulation. So, does this increase the existing money supply thereby further debasing it or does it start a new "money supply" as we gradually phase in the other denominations? It appears that they're trying to transition from one existing dollar system to another one.

Bugs, think parallel systems, supply, demand and quantity. Also, they could be trying to factor in a significant write down in perceived "wealth"(inflation) all across the asset board and make the transition not so painful. This would not be in our favor.


spotlight
Russia to price oil in Euro
Can anyone confirm what is on the Kitco Discussion group about Russia pricing oil in Euro's. If this is true, isn't this a major event that should send financial shock waves around the world? What country would want to hold dollars?
GratefulForGold
Speaking of "pricing in euro"
Recently, our sister forum (not Kitco) had a discussion regarding SA gold stocks and their current weakness possibly due to the strong Rand.

Another post mentioned Russia pricing oil in Euros. Still, yet, a later thought of what would be the effect if the SA gold miners priced their product in Euros rather than US$.

Does anyone here have a thought on that (the miners pricing in Euros)? Feasible? If so, the effect?

Thank you, kind sirs, for any thoughts!

Lady GFG

Druid
France warned for breaching euro pact
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1059040,00.htmlSnippet:

"France was told by the European commission yesterday that it faces disciplinary action after failing to cut its budget deficit in line with eurozone rules.
In a terse and low-key statement Brussels declared that Paris had taken "no effective action" to get spending under control since a reprimand in June. It is the first time such a notice has been issued to a member of the single currency."

Druid: Like I've said in the past, I'm so glad I'm not in the prediction business.
Liberty Head
Vote NO on parallel fiat currencies

One entity with direct control over two fiat currencies could only bring more trouble. The relative value of both could seesaw at will. This would make it so much easier to lead sheep to slaughter.
It's another stacked deck scheme favoring the house.
One honest currency is worth more than all the various fiat currencies combined.
One honest currency is all that is ever needed for markets to thrive throughout the planet.
The great part is, you can vote for honest currency as often as you wish. You don't need to organize any recalls and you don't need anyone's permission.
Every time you convert another person to honest money, you receive a bonus.

Best Wishes
Great Albino Bat
Response to comments on my rant by AEL,

Thanks for the extensive article quoted by you. I will read it carefully; I have not yet read it, but skimmed some parts, and it seems to coincide - more learnedly - with my opinions on Oil and Dehumanization.

Dollar Bill and Cavan Man: about mortgages in Mexico.

Mortgages imply - or used to imply, before the Government Sponsored Entities that are indulging in a monstrosity of lending long and borrowing short - that some people were willing to abstain from spending for thirty years, in the course of which period the debtors who owed the mortgages would pay back the debt to the savers.

The reason there are very few mortgages in Mexico, and those that do exist are fairly short-term and require a large down payment, is that there is no confidence in the enduring value of the money lent by the savers to the debtors.

The absence of quality money is what holds back the mortgage industry. There are some feeble efforts at extending mortgages, but ONLY with government guarantees, which don't amount to much in the way of helping people build their homes.

So, we are back to the need for REAL MONEY, silver or gold or both, for savers to entrust their savings for thirty years to mortgage companies and thus allow the companies to offer mortgages for thirty years.

The question of "the culture" has nothing to do with it. The problem is: money has no quality. This discourages saving, especially long-term savings which should fund mortgages.

Cavan Man: The U.S., with its "advanced credit society", is going to find itself in the same boat with Mexico, once the American people are shocked to find that their money is no better than pesos and becomes rapidly worthless. You will then see mortgage money coming not from its correct source, mass savings of the people, but from government. That is already happening! Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac etc. and a Fed that does nothing to stop their imprudent extension of credit as mortgages.

Since Mexico does not print Dollars, a U.S. monopoly, the government cannot fund mortgages with abandon, such as is happening in the U.S., where there is virtually no limit to credit expansion by the GSE's, as Prudent Bear tells us over and over again.

The reason you are hearing about the dearth of mortgages in Mexico is: the banks that predominate in Mexico are no longer Mexican, the biggest is owned by Citibank, and Citibank and the other foreign banks are salivating at the prospect of mortgages to Hypothecate all of Mexico, BUT, they are insisting that THE PESO MUST GO. They are twisting arms to have the Dollar adopted, and what you read is part of the campaign! Once the peso is ditched and the country adopts the DOLLAR as its currency, they will lend by the billions. More FED slaves. At which time, Mexico will just be another Puerto Rico.

All because Mexico does not have REAL MONEY.
Robert
sellling oil for dollars
Many of the contributions to this forum deal with the importance of the fact that oil can be bought only for dollars. I have the feeling that this is a vastly overrated issue. Consider the dollar revenue earned by Saudi Arabia in one year. I do not know the precise figure, but that figure must be of the order of 500 billion Dollars per year. In other words, they collect something like 1.5 billion Dollars a day. It could be more or less, but it definitely is less than 10 billion Dollars a day. Compare that figure against the daily volume of Dollars on the foreign exchange market. That figure is roughly 1.5 trillion Dollars a day. In other words, the amount of Dollars earned by Saudi Arabia in one day by selling oil is roughly 1/10 of 1% of the daily Dollar flow on the foreign exchange market. This is such a small amount that selling these Dollars on the FX market for let's say Euros would barely make a dent in the Dollar/Euro exchange rate. Therefore it would make no difference at all to the Dollar/Euro exchange rate if Suadi Arabia decides to immediately exchange their freshly acquired Dollars against Euros or Yens (or any other foreign currency for that matter). It is really difficult to believe that the great looting of the world by the dollar printing presses in the US is sustained by the relatively miniscule amounts represented by payments for oil in comparison to daily total dollar flows on the world financial markets. We hear all the time that gold is undervalued (I agree with that statement). However, what is not emphasized often enough is that oil is extremely undervalued. Think about it: Contrary to gold (which is not consumed at all), oil is a depleting natural resource with incredibly many vital applications, yet you can buy it at the gas station for less than you pay for bottled water in the supermarket. Oil is basically free. We pay only for the cost of transporting and refining it. We do not pay a penny for the cost of depleting this unique asset. For that reason, the whole issue of oil denomination in dollars or euros is in my opinion complete nonsense, more based on financial fantasy than actual economic figures.
Gandalf the White
WHAT ?????
"Now Smeagol is on the side of Giants and Good and Gold, and helps perhaps even if only in little ways. If they tires of us, jusst ssay the word, and Smeagol will use English and Grammar to make possts that look like the others."
********
NEVER !!
Quick the Nazguls have Sir Smeagol under a spell !
We MUST save him !
Quickly find KING Aragorn III
<;-)
Black Blade
Russian Oil for Euros

I have seen several articles in the last couple of days that suggest Russia will price oil in Euros. It would seem to be a logical course of action as Russia is closer to the EU than the US, at least in term of deliverability of oil and natural gas. The idea has cropped up from time to time and lately the consensus appears to be in favor of pricing oil in Euros. I have also seen denials about the pricing of oil in a currency other than US dollars as well. It is impossible to determine what Russia will do until it actually happens of course. However, if they did make the change over to Euro pricing I for one would not be all that surprised either. Russia has pipelines for both oil and natural gas stretching into Europe and they are the largest consumer of Russian oil.

I did post an essay "The Rise and Fall of Hydrocarbon Man" some time ago. In fact I posted it a couple of times. I wrote the piece before the turn of the century no less and nothing has really changed all that much. What I do find odd is that since then the Saudis has had increasing problems with their largest oil field as more and more brine (essentially salt water) has been increasing as a contaminant and their supposed 13 million bbl/day production capacity has declined to more like 9.2 million bbl/day. Oman has had sharp declines in production as well in spite of all attempts to pressurize the producing fields with oil/water injection, this with the help of British Petroleum (one of the best in the business). The reserves that Iraq had touted to be at about 125 billion bbl of oil appears to have been grossly overblown. The Kirkuk fields in the north have been over produced and now rising contaminants requires that the oil piped to Ceyhan, Turkey must sit in settling tanks to separate out of solution.

That brings us to the extensive but more expensive nonconventional oil resources such as the Orinoco heavy asphalt/oil in Venezuela that requires much more processing and the Athabasca oilsands of Alberta Canada that could hold as much as nearly a trillion bbl of oil. The problem facing the Athabasca oilsands is that a lot of energy must be expended to mobilize this oil, mostly using stranded natural gas as a heat source. That NatGas is being depleted quickly and some NatGas wells were ordered shut in recently. There are plans to pipe NatGas in from the MacKenzie Delta to the north. One other problem is that Canada has signed on to the Kyoto protocols and there are some plans calling for using nuclear energy to generate a heat source for oil extraction.

We are not going to "run out" of oil but we will "run out" of "cheap oil". We truly are addicted to oil and that is why we are collectively known as ""Hydrocarbon Man". Hydrocarbons have changed the face of the world allowing us to do more work with greater results and higher production. Maybe I should repost "The Rise and Fall of Hydrocarbon Man" at some point maybe sometime soon. But remember that we have gone from an agrarian society as we once were (even during the Great Depression) to a urban-suburban society to work in factories and offices rather than the waving fields of grain and large orchards. One thing is clear though and that is US factories and "New Economy" jobs (white and blue collar jobs) are leaving US shores. The US dollar is falling in value as are all currencies in a massive "Currency War" or as some politely prefer "competitive currency devaluation". Note that the price of oil has nearly doubled and gold risen from about $252 and ounce to $370 an ounce. Hard asset currencies are rising against the paper currencies based on "faith and credit" (whatever the hell that is). Also note that the Japanese just raised the debt ceiling limit by about $200 billion for the purpose of weakening the Yen and propping up the Euro and US dollar. This is WAR! It is a "Currency War". Meanwhile the US president and Treasury Secretary naively state that they support a "strong dollar policy". In effect they are saying that they want sky rocketing unemployment in the US with idle factories while jobs and factories move offshore. They really have no choice as the United States is technically bankrupt and the dollar is overvalued by at least 30-40%.

Wow! How easy it is to digress isn't it? Do not be surprised to see hard assets like precious metals, base metals, and hydrocarbons to be priced in currencies other than the dollar. The dollar is effectively just paper backed by absolutely nothing and is locked in a race of devaluation with the Yen and Euro as the major players. Why do you think that physical gold is being purchased by the wealthy and not so wealthy in the Middle East, Far East, and the Indian subcontinent instead of US dollars, euros and yen? I will go into the devaluation issue at another time but for now just be aware that this is a worldwide phenomenon as currencies are plunging and will continue to do so. The US for example has no choice but to fight back and print dollars faster that even imaginable just a few weeks ago. The problem is that the Japanese and Europeans can print just as fast. The only possible outcome is real inflation no matter what tripe the BLS can spit out. When the dollar price of Gold and Silver takes a dip like today then slowly add a few ounces if you can. Maybe a steady "dollar cost averaging" program should be put in place to add to your portfolios. Take advantage at every chance because they sure won't give you a second thought.

- Black Blade
spotlight
Pricing oil in Euro's
Robert:
If you were a foreign central bank chairman, and you had,not trillions of dollars per day in your reserves, but a few hundred billion, such is the case in the world in which we live,and you had the largest part of foreign exchange in a currency which had slid 22% this year so far,and was looking like it was in for a further like slide,Would you not want to diversify out of that currency? Especially since your country is dependent on oil, which is priced in that currency?

It is my opinion that once a major country like Russia makes such a move, it will encourage those dependent on oil,not only in Russia,but world wide, to keep the lyons share of their savings in the Euro,in order to escape the high risk of having to pay for oil at the future exchange rate of $/Euro.

With the Dollar on the down trend, this is one more reason to forget about showing up at the t-debt auctions by world central banks. A German official stated recently, He is
hoping for an orderly decline of the dollar...time will tell.
Robert
Russia and oil euros
Regardless whether Russia decides to price its oil in Euros or Dollars, please keep in mind that the GDP of Russia (which includes all the earnings due to selling oil abroad) is peanuts in comparison to the GDP of the US or western Europe or Japan. The numbers involved are not really significant.
Black Blade
AT MERRILL, ONE ECONOMIST WHO'S TELLING THE TRUTH
http://www.nypost.com/business/7625.htm
Snippit:

October 9, 2003 -- DAVID A. Rosenberg may be headed for trouble. But not the kind of trouble that Wall Street researchers have become accustomed to lately. Rosenberg, the chief North American economist at Merrill Lynch, is an economic heretic who lately has been straying often from the investment community's script about the improving health of U.S. businesses. I find his reports refreshing, if not startling, because they are coming from inside the world's biggest brokerage firm. But I'm sure the folks on Wall Street don't share my enthusiasm.

In the first report, Rosenberg concluded that the money being spent on computers and other technology by businesses is nowhere near what is being reported by the government. "What if we were to tell you that in nominal terms, business outlays on computers/peripherals has only risen $15 billion from the recession trough?" - and not the $133 billion the government pretends - Rosenberg says. The economist notes that the tech spending "accounted for 30 percent of the overall increase in GDP, so the economy ex-computer expenditures has only risen at a 2 percent annual rate." The government is officially reporting GDP at nearly twice that rate. (Note: We also can account for this in the BLS accounting standards as "Hedonic deflating").

In his Oct. 3 report, Rosenberg took the recent job figures to task. While nearly everyone else on Wall Street was cheering news that 57,000 new jobs were created in September - the first increase in eight months - Rosenberg told clients, "This was not a strong report in and of itself and we shouldn't let the shock factor of a '+' sign confuse matters." Why was it really weak? The Merrill economist offered 10 concerns about the government report, including the fact that more companies are still cutting workers than adding them; that the drop in hourly wages shows "income growth is sluggish;" and that the number of people who only have a part-time job because they can't find full-time work soared last month.


Black Blade: Yes indeed! I myself have mentioned these same concerns. The official record is that the unemployment is 6.1%, while the numbers I see in the report suggest something more in line with 9.3% as once benefits stop or those looking for work have given up looking as there is no work to be found. The numbers get worse somewhere above 12% when part time workers are added in (by my measure to cut that work force in half). Granted these are rough back of the envelope calculations but one must actually read the BLS reports and ignore the BS part of BLS statistics. It really ticks me off when people abuse and misuse statistical analysis to reach a desired outcome. There are so many filters (hedonics, seasonality, imputed income, ejecting "anomalies" at will, etc.) and various ways to "massage" the data. Few on Wall Street are intelligent enough to notice but the average Joes like you and me can at least read and add. It really is an ugly picture. One point quick point here � we are nowhere close to reaching the highs of the three major stock indices. So does this really mean we are in an economic recovery or just a rally by desperate investors trying to recover losses from the "stock mania bubble"? If so, then we have a long way to go just to "break even". I consider it nothing more than a "suckers rally" as corporate insiders are bailing out. It just does not pass the smell test. Oh yeah, CNBC reporter Steve Liesman was at White Sulfur Springs today and said that CEOs at the "Roundtable" do not see any sign of economic recovery while Wall Street economics do see an economic recovery. Now that's some "disconnect".

Black Blade
Oil For Euros

I don't think it really matters what currency oil is priced in but it is a matter of prestige. Should other nations do the same, especially the EU then it cut down the US dollar a notch as the world's premier reserve currency. It could just be the beginning of a trend. Just something to consider as the dollar is the reserve currency of choice for now.

- Black Blade
Waverider
Putin's idea to price oil in euros may hurt dollar
http://search.ft.com/search/article.html?id=031010000913&query=oil+in+euros&vsc_appId=totalSearch&state=FormFinancial Times: Oct. 10, 2003
"Vladimir Putin, Russia's president, floated the idea of pricing his country's oil in euros - a gesture towards Europe that could further drive down the value of the dollar and would have significant consequences in the oil and currency markets...The US and European Union are competing for initiatives over energy co-operation in Russia as they try to diversify supplies away from the Middle East and build stronger economic links with the nation, the world's second largest oil producer and its largest holder of natural gas reserves..."If Russia makes this move, it will be a reorientation of its economy towards Europe and this would add to upward pressure on the euro," said Mr Lewis."

Waverider: Black Blade - where would this leave China? I believe that Russia is also a supplier to China and is in process of building a Russia-China oil pipeline. China too would pay in euros, requiring China to hold a larger portion of euro reserves - yes?
Black Blade
Russia may switch oil prices to euros-German source
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031008/energy_russia_euro_3.html
Snippit:

YEKATERINBURG, Russia, Oct 8 (Reuters) - A German government source said on Wednesday that Russia may switch to pricing oil sales in euros rather than dollars, potentially huge news for financial markets. However, Russian energy and finance ministry officials said they were unable to confirm any change was planned. "The question is taking on increasing significance," said a government official travelling with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on an official visit to Russia, referring to the possibility of a switch in the traditional energy currency. Any such change would be a major shift in the balance of currencies behind the world's most traded commodity and the success of a long campaign by Europe to get oil priced in euros. It could deal a blow to U.S. economic prestige, as well as the strength of the dollar on foreign exchange markets.

Black Blade: This is just one such report of oil for euros. No one is confirming or denying the reports it would be a logical step for the Russians but in my opinion it's a non-issue, however, it could be a response to what most of us already know and that is the US dollar is grossly over valued against the other major currencies an a switch could ultimately be a profitable venture in time. The US dollar must devalue and the Fed is aggressively working in that direction only to be foiled by officially sanctioned currency intervention by competing currencies.

Black Blade
Waverider - China and Oil
China recently failed in a bid to buy out a Russian oil producer (I don't recall which one). They are still in the hunt though. They also recently cut a deal with Iran as did Japan. Both countries are so top-heavy with US dollar and Euro reserves that for them the situation is a non-issue in my opinion. It has been rumored that China has been accumulating gold to diversify reserves and recently Russia expressed a desire to raise their official gold reserves to 10% if they could. Regardless, the currency war is far from over. So far the US dollar has been on the losing end as jobs and manufacturing flee US shores.

- Black Blade
Druid
WAC (Wide Awake Club) (10/09/03; 04:16:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 110074)

"Are we talking exchange controls here?"

Druid: WAC, maybe not initially but in my book, it's a step in that direction. Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this does not surprise me given our country's current financial predicament. We'll have to see how the marketing plays out.

As you know, we are in a very interesting chess game. We bugs have the better logic, arguement and understanding of how our financial system SHOULD work. However, the opposition has the ability through POLITICAL WILL to make us appear too our fellow countrymen like we have three eyes and hail from a galaxy far far away. This is the power of print(mainstream press), the parrot box, nice hair and a nice suit. It is EXTREMELY difficult to over come these obstacles with logic and reason.
DummyANI
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 03 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7
Oct. 06 53,796�c plus15038�c...370.0
Oct. 07 58,706�c plus4910�c...373.3
Oct. 08 64,629�c plus5923�c...377.8
Oct. 09 62,648. minus1981�c...376.0
Oct. 10 60,357. minus2291�c...369.8

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
spotlight
Gold trade reports
Dummy Ami:
Could you include a brief analysis with your gold trade reports?
DummyANI
@spotlight (10/10/03; 02:58:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 110145)
Mitsui is like to increase his short positions in the case of a rising gold-price and a declining gold-price.
When a gold is in a up-trend, Mitsui�fs strategy is very efficient, but the gold is in a down-trend, Mitsui is losing in his trade.

The current Mitsui short positions are abnormally huge in the down-trend, and my astronomical calculations indicate that today (Oct. 10-th) is a changing date of gold-price, I think that COMEX-gold will return to the final 5-th up-leg from here to about $425 per ounce until Nov. 7, 17, or 25.

D-ANI:
silvercollector
USD in dive mode!!!
Red Alert!

Dollar makes new low at 91.34.

Gold to 'limit up' today, I might say! Is that okay?

Have a golden day!
tyro
currency devaluation
In "The coming currency devaluation" by Cliff Droke, it says:

"�coin dealers are under a strict Treasury regulation and must report your sales of some coins but not others. The rule is as follows: Coins with a premium above 15% do not have to be reported. In addition to the 1099 report, filed by the coin dealer, you have to declare any capital gains as well."
He continues, "The existence of this rule, I believe, indicates an intent to outlaw the ownership of bullion coins altogether! However, the rule will not remain at 15% necessarily and could be changed to a higher percentage, which is unknown at this time. Obviously, you do not want to own any investment coins with a premium of 15% or less and better stay at the 25% or 30% level to be safe." Patterson points out that complications for the government would clearly arise should numismatic collectibles be forcibly confiscated since the bullion coins' value can be determined by the London gold fix, but not so for collectibles. "The price of the collectible coin may or may not be easily determined as numismatic valuables are routinely auctioned off at prices of not only tens of thousands of dollars, but hundreds of thousands of dollars per item," he observes. "It is difficult to imagine just how this would all be sorted out by the bureaucracy to come up with a calculation of compensation that would relate to the market value." He advises staying in the "safe zone" and exchanging bullion coins not needed for emergencies (such as food or gasoline shortages, et al) for numismatic coins with higher premiums."

tyro: Would someone explain this more for a newbie? Especially about "a premium of 15%. Link not provided because of this forum's rules.
Great Albino Bat
Tyro: WATCH OUT if you play with numismatic!!

You must be quite clear about numismatic coins. If you buy one, you are in the antiques business, not in the GOLD OWNERSHIP BUSINESS. You want to be an antique dealer? Buy numismatic coins.

Sure, you can make a lot in antiques, you might find a kinder tax treatment, but - you are in another business, not in the gold ownership business.

Antiques have strong ups and downs. When prices of goods are rising in boom times ("inflation") then antiques go up far and fast. Great! When times get rough, antiques are the first to stall out.

Same thing will happen to numismatic coins. Just when you need the money, in a crisis, is when numismatic coins that cost you a fortune, will go begging for peanuts.

The GAB.
Max Rabbitz
Tyro - 15% Gold Reporting Rule
Cliff Droke doesn't say what rule this is. As far as I can determine there is no such rule. Perhaps in the future, but for now the only rule on reporting is if $10,000 cash is used, same as for other purchases....If I'm not mistaken. Perhaps Sir MK could comment.


Robert
oil and gold

There are various estimates for the total amount of conventional oil contained in the crust of the earth. The most optimistic estimates are around 3 trillion barrel oil, but the average estimate is only 2 trillion barrel of oil. That figure includes not only oil to be discovered in the future but also all the oil extracted and burned in the past 100 years. Since one barrel of oil equals 42 gallons of oil, the original oil endowment of our planet can be visualized as a tank containing 84 trillion gallon of oil. To get a better feel how large that tank actually is, let's imagine the tank to be a perfect cube. Doing a simple calculation on a pocket calculator, I arrive at the conclusion that this tank has a volume of 77 cubic miles which means that all the oil of the world (already burned in the past or to be burned in the future) fits into a cube of dimensions 4 miles times 4 miles times 4 miles. Right now the tank is half empty or, if you prefer, half full. (This is called the Hubbert peak of oil production). Unless oil consumption goes down, we will reach the bottom of the tank in roughly 30 years. This means that the oil in the tank goes down every day by 20 inches (half a meter for our Canadian and European friends) - that is, 20 inches represents our present daily consumption of oil which includes heating, traffic, petrochemical industry and all the other numerous and important applications of oil (there are too many of them to be listed here).

Another way of visualizing the total oil endowment of the world is to calculate the share of oil per world citizen. The world population is presently around 6 billion which means the there were originally only 14,000 gallons of oil per person. Since half of that oil is already gone, only 7,000 gallons of oil per person is left for discovery and extraction. If you drive 20,000 miles a year using a typical car (making 20 miles per gallon), your remaining share is consumed in just 7 years of driving. These numbers are indeed stark and they do explain why we are in the midst of truly extraordinary historic times.

Now let's take a look at gold. According to what I have read on this and other gold forums, all the gold mined in the past 5000 years comes down to 120,000 tons. Since gold is a very dense material (19300 KG per cubic meter), the volume occupied by all that gold is very small. It works out to 6200 cubic meters. In other words, all the gold of the world ever mined would fit a perfect cube of 20 times 20 times 20 meters (roughly 60x60x60 feet). This is the volume of a large barn. Contrary to oil, this gold stash does not get smaller in time. In fact, it grows year by year, at a present rate of roughly 2,000 tons per year (or 10 cubic meters per year). Except for jewelery, gold is pretty much useless. We admire it as a symbol of wealth. Beyond that it is basically a religious object. People on this forum call it "wealth". However, our life quality today depends to a very large extent on cheap and plentiful oil. We do not need gold in order to live well. However, without oil our future survival is very much in question. If there would not be cheap oil, most likely I (and everybody else on this forum) would not be able to waste our life on the internet by entertaining ourselves with speculations about dollars, euros, gold and oil. (to be continued - must go back to work now)
Druid
Solomon Weaver (10/9/03; 10:25:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 110095)
"So, conspiracy theorists....let's keep an eye on the new dollar....and raise our voices that it should be backed by gold...as many other nations will soon do."

Druid: Sir Solomon Weaver, I enjoy reading your insights. If I might play devil's advocate: if I have amassed a great fortune over generations under a past paper currency standard, what incentive do I have to change the formula? Why would I not want to repeat the same experiment?
VanRip
More Droke
Droke also quotes Patterson with the following:

(snip)

Patterson states, "I want every one...to think carefully about this...because we are coming very, very close to the end of the freely convertible domestic dollar. The cut in value could be as much as 50%...I believe those holding gold bullion bars offshore and bullion coins domestically will be very surprised to find that special regulations will prohibit them from profiting."

--------(insert Tyro's paragraph from post 110148 below)

He continues, "The existence of this rule, I believe, indicates an intent to outlaw the ownership of bullion coins altogether!

(Van Rip) I hate to see the old confiscation bit (if that's what's implied) being brought up again, even in a one-liner. Just enough to worry the small pea shooters like me who have a small collection of bullion coins as insurance in case the walls cave in and all sources of fiat dry up. If "they" decide to take it or at the least punish us somehow for having it, then what?

When I was a boy during the depression, I learned pretty quick that a small sack of apples or potatoes or carrots that my father grew would trade every four days or so for a half gallon of raw milk from an old guy with a couple of cows a bike ride away. At least you could count on it and other swaps elsewhere week in and week out. And now I look at my coins and wonder. Goodbye security? Goodbye insurance? Goodbye wealth?

Apparently, Patterson hasn't read all the stuff that say's confiscation can't happen again, not here. If he has, he isn't buying it.
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
The fruit of your labor: exchange today's value for TIMELESS value!
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Whatever it is that you may have sown,
we'll give you the power to reap GOLD.

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glennh10
Gold & Numismatics
Personally, I would avoid coins having a high numismatic premium, unless you are truly interested in coin collecting. If you're a coin collector, then your coins have a purpose beyond wealth protection (a hobby). For wealth protection, focus on the gold and silver itself.

Can/will the gov't impose some restrictions that negatively affect bullion-class gold? Well, historically governments have done far more than that to their citizens, so, I would say, potentially, anything is possible.

I just try to stay informed (which is greatly helped by the many knowledgeable folks here at USAGOLD and this forum), and prepare accordingly. For myself, that has meant accumulating some gold and silver, as well as preparations that other contributors here have recommended.
specie-man
Gold: useless ?? Silver: critical ??
Robert wrote:
"Except for jewelery, gold is pretty much useless. We admire it as a symbol of wealth. Beyond that it is basically a religious object. People on this forum call it "wealth". However, our life quality today depends to a very large extent on cheap and plentiful oil. We do not need gold in order to live well. However, without oil our future survival is very much in question. "

I agree on the oil part. Oil (cheap/abandant/safe energy) has allowed the human population to swell far beyond what it otherwise would have been able to reach. Take away the oil, and there MUST be a *significant* downward adjustment of the human population (ala www.dieoff.com).

Gold has traditionally been used for jewelry and ornamentation. Man has always placed a high value on ornamentation (and thus gold). Antiques, paintings, art, etc. are also valued highly - in a similar fashion to gold. One could argue that an expensive painting is useless. Gold is highly-valued because it endures. A 3000 year-old artifact made of gold will look just like the day it was made. A 3000 year-old painting, on the other hand, will have degraded considerably.

Gold has many important uses ! But it is just too expensive (valuable) for many of them. Gold is very important in electronics, for example. The Colorado state capitol building dome is covered in 24K gold leaf. They figure that they have actually saved money over the years because the gold is low maintenance - any other surfacing (paint, etc.) would need frequent re-work.

But the issues you bring up are why I like silver. Silver is used much more than gold in industry (the lower price helps !). Silver stockpiles are currently very low compared to gold. When the real energy crisis hits, silver could become very important for it's properties:

1. Highest reflectivity of any metal (solar mirrors).
2. Highest electrical conductivity of any metal (power transmission, superconductors).
3. Highest light-sensitity of any metal (solar cells).
4. Highest thermal conductivity of any metal (heat exchangers).

Not to mention silver's germ/bacteria/mold killing capabilities without being toxic to humans (water purification, etc.).


21mabry
Banks
Just got back from doing some banking.There was a sign in the bank stating they would only give a customer up to 1000 dollars in cash anything over would have to be deposited or they would not cash the check.This is in toledo ohio area.Whats up with that.21
HighPtFarm
Russia to price oil in euros in snub to US
Can anyone confirm this report? I picked it up on another site. If it's true, the currency implications are HUGE and oil/gasoline prices here in the USA are GOING UP.

Russia to price oil in euros in snub to US
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
money.telegraph
(Filed: 10/10/2003)

Russia is to start pricing its huge oil and gas exports in euros
instead of dollars as part of a stragetic shift to forge closer ties
with the European Union.

The Russian central bank has been amassing euros since early 2002,
increasing the euro share of its $65 billion (�40 billion) foreign
reserves from 10pc to more than 25pc, according to the finance ministry.

The move has set off a chain reaction in the private sector, leading
to a fourfold increase in euro deposits in Russian banks this year and
sending Russian citizens scrambling to change their stashes of
greenbacks into euro notes.

German officials said Chancellor Gerhard Schroder secured agreement
for the change-over on oil pricing from Vladimir Putin, the prime
minister, while on a trip to Russia this week.

The two leaders have forged a close personal bond and are both keen to
check American economic and diplomatic power.

Mr Putin was coy about German media reports on the deal yesterday but
acknowledged that Russia was exploring the idea. "We do not rule out
that it is possible. That would be interesting for our European
partners," he said.

A switch to euro invoicing would not affect the long-term price of oil
but it could encourage Middle Eastern exporters to follow suit and
have a powerful effect on market psychology at a time when the dollar
is already under intense pressure. Russia boasts the world's biggest
natural gas reserves and is the number two oil exporter after Saudi
Arabia.

Yesterday the dollar recovered slightly against the yen and euro, but
the IMF and the European Central Bank both warn that America's
ballooning current account deficit, now over 5pc of GDP, will lead to
further declines.

Oil is seen as so central to the global power structure that the
choice of currency used for pricing has acquired almost totemic
significance. The switch from pounds to dollars after the Second World
War has come to symbolise sterling's demise as a world reserve currency.

If the dollar were ever displaced by the euro, it would lose the
enormous freedom it now enjoys in running macro-economic policy.
Washington would also forfeit the privilege of exchanging dollar notes
for imports, worth an estimated 0.5pc of GDP.

Maxim Shein, from BrokerKreditService in Moscow, said the switch to
euros makes sense for Russia since it supplies half of Europe's energy
needs. But the move is also part of a global realignment stemming from
the Iraq war, which threw Russia, Germany and France together into a
new Triple Entente.

"Abandoning the dollar is tantamount to a curtsey to the EU," he said.
For now, IMF figures show the dollar remains king, accounting for 68pc
of foreign reserves worldwide compared with 13pc for the euro.

http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2003/10/10/cno=
il10.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2003/10/10/ixfrontcity.html
specie-man
Gold, Numismatics, Confiscation
A precedent for the confiscation of gold has already been set in this country. In 1933, FDR ordered citizens/banks/corporations to turn in their gold. The initial executive order declared that all gold bars and coins must be sold to the government at face value (US coins), or the current fixed price per ounce (bars). After serious objections were raised, the order was changed to allow people to hold "numismatic" gold coins and medals (actually, anything minted before 1933). So all those common US $20 gold coins were legal to hold (except for the 1933 $20 coins - they were never released by the Mint but a few were smuggled out). Initially, Kruggerands were illegal to hold because they were minted after 1933. That changed in 1974 (Nixon did at least one thing right).

So if someone wanted a numismatic safeguard for their gold purchases, the $20 gold double eagles would be a good idea. They are really neat coins, containing nearly an ounce of gold (.9675 troy), and they trade for a relatively small premium over bullion.

I have not heard of any "15% numismatic premium" business to avoid confiscation. This whole issue is a quagmire ! What about the modern US Gold Eagles ? Surely the proofs carry a 15% (or higher) premium, as do some of the high-grade regular issues (PCGS/NGC/etc. MS 69 & 70). Who is going to sort all this out ?? Nobody.

The government is not above confiscating private property, especially if the ignorant masses don't object. If the government got into such a bind, I believe that they would either enact draconian measures to confiscate ALL gold (as well as many other assets), or, more likely, they would enact something like they did in 1933 - the confiscation of all gold bars, mainly going after the large documented (traceable) holders.

But here is an important aspect to consider:

THE GOVERNMENT IS NO MORE LIKELY TO CONFISCATE GOLD THAN THEY ARE TO CONFISCATE OTHER TYPES OF ASSETS !

I can see oil and farmland being confiscated before gold. Paper money can be "confiscated" through inflation. Paper money can be "confiscated" by simply declaring it worthless. Gold, on the other hand, is nearly impossible to confiscate from small-quantity holders because it is compact, portable, and in many cases, untraceable.

The NRA has been able to avoid the wholesale confiscation (and even registration) of firearms.

What we need is something like a National Gold Association ("NGA") that will stand up and shout loudly: "NO GOLD CONFISCATION !". And they need to do it BEFORE the bad stuff hits the fan.

Now is the time to be pre-emptive !

IF ALL OF US STAND UP NOW AND DECLARE THAT WE WILL NEVER TURN IN OUR ASSETS, NO MATTER WHAT, THEN THE GOVERNMET WILL LIKELY NOT PURSUE GOLD CONFISCATION. The government can ill afford to turn millions of citizens into crimminals at the stroke of a pen.

Here is a useful argument for our cause:

Citizens in China can (or will soon be able to) buy gold bullion at their local banks. If Americans were not allowed to own gold bars, then that would mean that citizens of communist China have more rights than American citizens do ! That fact would/should be a "wake-up call" for the public to demand changes.



Waverider
Putin: Why Not Price Oil in Euros?
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/10/10/001.html"President Vladimir Putin said Thursday Russia could switch its trade in oil from dollars to euros, a move that could have far-reaching repercussions for the global balance of power -- potentially hurting the U.S. dollar and economy and providing a massive boost to the euro zone."

Waverider: HighPtFarm - this from the Moscow Times - also please see yesterday's postings here at USAGOLD by Black Blade. Haven't seen your handle before - welcome!
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
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http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has beenupdated.

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HighPtFarm
Greetings to All on this Fine Board
Greetings to the particpants of what I regard as the best Gold Board on the internet. I have been reading the postings from this board for the last six months. I copy the days postings and read them every night. I have walked the trail and attempted to take in the wisdom of Another and Friend of Another. Fascinating is the only description appropriate for the board content in context to events of the day. Everyone, thanks the great posts and to CPM for providing the forum. I have much to learn. Chuck



Black Blade
Robert - Gold and Oil

Quote: "Except for jewelery, gold is pretty much useless. We admire it as a symbol of wealth. Beyond that it is basically a religious object. People on this forum call it "wealth". However, our life quality today depends to a very large extent on cheap and plentiful oil. We do not need gold in order to live well."

I take it you haven't traveled very extenesively. In most countries I have had the opportunity to work gold is valued over currency. In fact Gold and Silver are the currencies of choice by nearly two thirds of the planet's population. Sure, the stash of gold grows but the earth's population grows much faster leaving less gold per person than in the past. When I show a dollar bill to many people in the Third world and explain that this is "money" they either laugh or are completely dumbfouned. Others when asked what they prefer - dollars or gold the answer is almost always "Gold". Granted my travels have been confined to Asia, former Soviet states and South America. But they are just an example of the burgeoning Third world. Many nuy their gold and silver in the form of silver because of either the laws or to keep on their person for safety.

- Black Blade
HighPtFarm
Thank You, Waverider
Yes, I have read through the various reports that Russia may want euros for their oil, but this report out of Brussels seems to suggest that it's a "done deal". That is a new twist in the story and I was wondering if anyone here could confirm this report. Perhaps Belgium has heard something?
Cavan Man
Courtesy of Bill Bonner @DR
Bill, I hope to have the pleasure of meeting you in N.O.The Nasdaq is selling at 8 times SALES...but stocks went up yesterday.

Even at Wal-Mart, the people who know what they are doing are selling stock...but the lumpeninvestoriat takes no notice; the dumb money keeps buying.

Asians work for 1/5th to 1/10th the wages of Americans. And Asians economies are growing 2 to 3 times faster than the U.S.. Still, Asian stocks are priced much lower than stocks on Wall Street.

The U.S. is running a current account deficit of about $1 million PER MINUTE...but the dollar rose yesterday.

The average American is deeper in debt than at any time in history...but consumer spending just rose at the fastest pace in 18 months.

The Moscow Times reports that Russia, the world's second- largest oil exporter, is considering shifting its oil dealings from the dollar to the euro...but the price of the euro fell against the dollar yesterday.

As a percentage of family income, house prices have risen nearly 50% since the early 70s. Houses are selling for such high prices that fewer and fewer people can afford them...but the price of the median house continues to rise five times faster than income.

The U.S. army is the greatest offensive military force the world has ever seen. But it has been placed in a position where it is forced to DEFEND itself against desert tribes...and the price of gold still dropped more than $6 yesterday.

Meanwhile, the world's only super-power seems to be at war with ITSELF over what to do next, both on the economic front and in the Iraqi front. It is running a budget deficit of more than $1 billion per day...

...and people lend it money as if it were the Eisenhower years.

The more we think about it, the more we love this market...this economy...this world! It gets madder and madder. But imagine how boring it would be if people did the reasonable thing?

Instead, we are treated to the spectacle of investors, economists, homeowners and politicians sitting on stacks of dynamite...and lighting the fuse!

Advice to readers: watch out. Sell the dollar, sell the Nasdaq, sell Treasuries, sell real estate. Buy gold, the euro and Asian stocks.

TownCrier
Russian government demonstrates political nimbleness
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20031010/bs_dowjones/200310100806000404MOSCOW -(Dow Jones)- Russian Energy Minister Igor Yusufov said Friday that the government won't play an active role in shifting the denomination of oil contracts from U.S. dollars to euros.

*********"It's a decision that will ultimately be made between the buyer and the seller," Yusufov told reporters at a briefing.**********

"I don't see anything negative in going into a euro-based system." Yusufov's statement comes one day after Russian President Vladimir Putin said that pricing of oil contracts in euros was "possible".

------(from url)-----
Joanne
(No Subject)
Can anybody tell me if FOA said anything about confiscation? I have been reading him on and off over the years but can't say it's all been crystal clear to me.
Great Albino Bat
specie-man: with all due respect, please consider

A government that gets into such great difficulties that it has to resort to confiscation of its citizens' gold, is not going to be swayed by any organized protests by the citizenry.

In the present circumstances, which will likely only get worse, citizens' recourse to Law or to public opinion for redress of grievances is doubtful at best, and most probably fruitless. Goldbugs are misunderstood and do not enjoy - for the moment anyway - support of the majority.

So, any joining in a movement to protest confiscation is only going to provide the government with a handy list of persons to call in for questioning and/or delivery of their gold.

In owning gold, you are on your own, a situation which was very familiar to Americans a few generations ago, but which has been forgotten by the mass of people.

Gold represents your own private battle. Keep a low profile.

The GAB



21mabry
U.S.D
After what I saw at the bank today,I got to thinking.There might not be alot of physical paper in circulation.The vast majority must be electronic digits in cyberspace.I do not know if anyone else has any experience with countefit currency.I have noticed alot of vending machines will not take alot of 5 dollar bills they spit them back out.These bills are relatively new and unwrinkled the machines just will not accept them even though they are set up too.Just makes me think there is alot of funny money out there.I know 20 denomination is the most popular to fake,but these machines have to be tempting targets to hit for 4 bucks in change.21
CoBra(too)
Russian Oil for �? - and other Matters ...
Russian oil is mostly owned by private companies, not so with Russian National Gas, which is still state owned and according to Putin will stay state controlled. Maybe a wise decision as the "Oligarchs" won't be able to take it all, and get away with it.

Putin apparently has made an agreement with chancellor Schroeder to step up deliveries of NG to the EU in exchange for the financing of a new NG Pipeline.

We'll see.

Other important news this weekend will be the ratification of the new EU constitution in Rome. While the small members, including my own country would not too be happy losing a full commiss(ion)ar, I at least would hope for ratification. I guess there will be other political trade offs to facilitate this important goal. Isn't politics all about finding the least possible, though common denominator, the very essence of democracy?

But then, of course, it comes to mind that the greatest democracy we've known so far in mankind's evolution, namely the US of A, has deteriorated to an oligarchy. An oligarchy of financial, industrial and sociological supremacy, supressing the free capital markets it has invented and held supreme for so long.

And, no, I'm not talking about the suppression of the POG, I'm talking about shoring up the US dollar supremacy against all odds and to the detriment of all, and in particular to the detriment of US citizens. Not wanting to rehash and list all the causes for this debacle, suffice to state that more government always leads to less freedom and liberty.

As an aside, being an Austrian I'm kind'a bemused by the California electorate to chose Arnie. OK, he's a smart man, though what does it say about Clifornians? I'd personally prefer the Californians would have have voted to install Austrian economics, along with the rest of the world. And some former and still, even now officially communistic countries, are adopting these theses.

The private ownership of gold has historically assured personal freedom, the liberty of choices and finally gold represents the only tangible wealth, enduring millenia and will survive even the dollar standard.

Sorry for ranting, though I've personally had a good day and made some more FRN's to convert to gold.

Have a great weekend, my friends and knights of MK's oaken table and you won't be bothered by me for some time, as I'll be travelling towards youre shores soon.

Hoping you won't shun me upon my arrival in the capital city
- even if an oz of au is securely sewed into my cape for ultimate pro-(no not de-)tection - stay the course.

May the good tides be with you, godspeed and never forget to get your gold, when its worth more than its weight -

Thank you - cb2



MK
All....
My previous post on reporting requirements and confiscation, I concluded, was deficient in dealing with some complex subject matter. As a result, I thought it best to strike it until I've had time to deal with the subject more completely.

But I can post a quick comment about reporting requirements:

Reporting requirements are a moot point in my book, since we are all, as American citizens, responsible for taxes on gains irrespective of whether or not a 1099 form has been filed by your gold broker. The 15% rule often quoted in discussions on pre-1933 versus bullion coins is misunderstood and misconstrued. Originally, it was part of a proposed regulation back in 1984. I emphasize the word "proposed." It never became an IRS reg. That wording and reference was dropped when the final regulations were promulgated. In the final wording, the word "commodity" played a very important role, and the final list of reportable items published by the Industry Council for Tangible Assets (ICTA) -- which conducted the negotiations with Treasury -- contained certain specific bullion and coin products for which future's contracts had been approved by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. The philosophy behind the law is that 'commodities' are bought and sold by 'brokers' therefore the reportable items need be associated with the exchanges.

Confiscation is another issue entirely and one considerably more serious than reporting requirements.
cockerel1
specie-man - msg#: 110159
"IF ALL OF US STAND UP NOW AND DECLARE THAT WE WILL NEVER TURN IN OUR ASSETS, NO MATTER WHAT, THEN THE GOVERNMET WILL LIKELY NOT PURSUE GOLD CONFISCATION. The government can ill afford to turn millions of citizens into crimminals at the stroke of a pen."

specie-man, here in dear old Canada, the government turned over a million Canadians into criminals with the stroke of a pen.

They made law that whomever owned a firearm and did not re-register into the new data-base, were now guilty of breaking the law and considered criminals.(Needless to say, the majority of gun-owners have not re-registered and none of the Provinces support the law. However, the government insists on committing in excess of 1 billion dollars to keep the registration alive. Why, you ask?

Well, Ottawa is the capital city, the seat of government. It is also one of the centres of the Hi-tech industry. Unemployment in Ottawa would not look good for the government. So, all those private hi-tech unemployed, are now government employees.

Problem solved!


Federal_Reserves
Crude continues to surge today with other CRB components
How bout those stocks holding on too, breaking to new yearly highs this week on good employment news! Yet, as the DOW spiked, GE warned and AA was light on the revenues.

Like to see how the stock boys handle crude at 36 and Gold at 400, along with the CRB spiking to yearly highs! Maybe they'll have to declare another tax cut.



Belgian
@HighPtFarm
Shroeder and Putin discussed the POO (and gas). Schroeder urged Putin to arrange "higher" prices. More on this later.
Gandalf the White
The Wiz speaks out on "Numismatics" !!!
A number of posts about "investing" coins have been seen and number of ideas have been presented -- Sir Specie-man AND Sir Black Blade were the closest to my thinking, BUT, Sir GAB, I will give MHO if I may !

FIRST -- I feel that numismatics are SECONDARY to first having a goodly sized quantity of BULLION as the core base of your golden wealth INSURANCE !

Secondary, IF you wish to enter the numismatics area, you either MUST educate yourself to the three important areas of numismatics -- WHICH are --- CONTIDION, CONDITION and CONDITION !! You ask -- WHAT is that dumb ol'e Wiz talking about ? -- I am pleased to give an explaination --
CONDITION is the important item of a coin because it is the determining item of VALUE ! Coins that have not been "Graded" are called "RAW" and most that one sees are sold in this "state". Take two gold coins of the same mint, and year (such as a U.S. 1907 Liberty $20 Gold piece). These coins are considered to be one of the most commonly available of the $20 goldpieces. CONDITION is defined in the numismatics field as GRADE ! In the U.S., there are numerous professional GRADING firms that define the GRADE of coins. The two most accepted firms are PCGS and NGC ! ALL coin dealers recognize these two "GRADERS" as a standard of grading quality. Numerous levels of "GRADES" of coins are used, using a point system from one to one-hundred to classify the coin in the the lowest GRADE of say "Poor" (P); "Good" (G) to Very Good (VG); Fine (F); (VF); (XF); at least four levels of Almost Uncirculated (AU) and FINALLY UNCIRCULATED commonly called "Brilliant Uncirculated" in the SEVEN Grades of Mint States 60; 61; 62; 63; 64; 65; 66; and the TOP Grade of MS 67 !!!!! The professional GRADED coins are placed in a air tight plastic container and are referred to as "SLABBED" !

Why is the dumb Ol'e Wiz going into such detail, you ask ?
BECAUSE, IF you are not an experienced person you can be taken advantage of easily as the difference in WHOLESALE value between a MS 60 and MS 64 US 1907 P $20 gold coin is PRESENTLY over $500. and to most sheeple they have no idea of the difference when they look at an UNSLABED or RAW coin. --- MOST important also are CLEANED coins ! The CLEANING of coins MOST of the time decreases the rarity VALUE to that of BULLION! Most people will not be able to determine if a RAW coin has been cleaned with their unaided eyes! AND, there are many FAKE copies of many rare coins that are only able to be AUTHENTICATED as FAKES by the Grading firms. These are mostly held by people until they wish to sell them and THEN they find out that they may not even be worth BULLION value and not the high rarity value in which they thought that they had investigated.
YES, YES, YES ! There are potential hazards in Numismatics !

BUT, in response to Sir GAB, some people are able to make a good living buying RAW gold pieces and having them authenticated and SLABBED and then selling them for good profits. Look at the "dealer" that had the 1933 Saint !
(AND, the Ol'e Wiz that has doubled his monies (six figures) invested in US $20. pieces during the last two years!) OK, enough of this RANT !

AND, If one is able to communicate with the old USA Gold coins, (LIKE the Wiz), they have FANTASTIC stories to tell.

BTW, USAGOLD -- CPM sells SLABBED and RAW USA gold coins !
<;-)
silvercollector
So.........
how did our obese USD do today?

Looks like support at 91.7 (ish) was cracked a couple days ago, it was taken out Thursday at 91.32 (ish) and after a stellar (feeble?) attempt to generate some steam cracked again today to the tune of 91.28 (ish).

WHEN, NOT IF, the dollar does some serious cracking ala 90.XXX (imagine <90, hee, hee) gold is off to the races.......LARGE!.

Have a golden weekend. Pack your bags at your leisure for the rocket ride 'TO THE MOON "!! Gold will see 4 digits in this decade and then.........then I'm not responsible afterwards.



OUCH!


;)

sc



silvercollector
Robert

Your posts in the last few days contain little latitute in thinking.

"...gold is useless..."

Let's imagine gold at $30,000US/oz. and then check your statement. May we say they represent the 2 ends of the 'gold' discussion?

BB is carefully eluding to a fact; 2/3rds of the planet conceptually at least, view gold as money.

I have worked in a gold mine on the the 23rd level and have held gold in my hand after a stenuous day. Until you have done that pal, you don't have the right to call gold useless. Should we (in particular you) dismiss the fact that 2/3rds of the planet believes in 'gold in hand'?

(I'm trying to present this post in a statement by statement format so that one can follow)

Good luck.

(That old expression about 'giving your head a shake' actually works)
silvercollector
(No Subject)
..latitude..
Druid
The issue of confiscation is touched upon....
Druid: ...in past posts.

Date: Tue Nov 25 1997 08:24
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

Mr. Vronsky,
thank you for posting the article by Markus. I, in much the same way must have "ANOTHER" post my thoughts as position will not allow open expression.

Mr. Markus Angelicus,
Checkmate is the end of a game, but in life checkmate is the beginning of freedom! I submit that all of history is full of war. From nations to single persons we all do battle over ownership of things. Some support not war but would kill to keep what is theirs! It would seem that from the day of birth our financial chaos begins. The end of our struggle is reached but for a moment in time as "checkmate" becomes "stalemate" and fortunate and free are the few who find this time in life!

Am I misleading? I submit to you that all of creation is misleading. It is only in the pages of history that we find those who thought the truth! The "facts" of the present are but a wonder to all. Only time will prove all things.

Sir, you write, "Your gold coins in your pocket will become the target of persecution and arrests and you will be forced to accept the world's standard currency. There will be no alternative...you will be unable to trade with your gold because they will have long outlawed both gold and old paper currency...."

In the past many world governments and leaders, far greater than those today have embraced these thoughts. I and my fathers have done battle with such evil and won! For we have 6,000 years of history as our armor!

For those who say gold is not an asset and is dead! I offer you a fact: "Today, as you read this more gold is traded and purchased than at any time in the history of the world." This ancient, world class money from the distant past is now to be the most fought over asset of the future. In war and life, gold will be your "CHECKMATE"!
Robert
Black Blade: "gold is valued over currency"

You wrote: "I take it you haven't traveled very extenesively. In most countries I have had the opportunity to work gold is valued over currency. In fact Gold and Silver are the currencies of choice by nearly two thirds of the planet's population. Sure, the stash of gold grows but the earth's population grows much faster leaving less gold per person than in the past. When I show a dollar bill to many people in the Third world and explain that this is "money" they either laugh or are completely dumbfouned. Others when asked what they prefer - dollars or gold the answer is almost always "Gold". Granted my travels have been confined to Asia, former Soviet states and South America. But they are just an example of the burgeoning Third world. Many nuy their gold and silver in the form of silver because of either the laws or to keep on their person for safety".

I think you can find many people in this country who would happily accept gold eagles as payment for their work. I for sure, if given the choice, would prefer to take my biweekly paycheck in gold coins (gold eagles or Krugerands - I am not picky). In fact, I would give my employer a discount of 3% to the spot price if he would agree to pay me in physical gold. And I would not be surprised to learn that many people on this forum think similarly. So we do not need to travel abroad to learn that people have a natural preference for the noble metal. By the way, I assume that you took these trips abroad by taking airplane flights. Traveling long distances by plane consumes hundreds of gallons of oil per passenger seat. I assume further that you did not pay for these hundreds gallons of oil in gold coins. Most likely, you paid for these trips (as everybody else) in "worthless" paper Dollars, right? That is precisely what makes this country great. We have the right to pay for valuable resources (like oil and gold) in "worthless" paper money. Third world countries have not reached yet this high level of sophistication on which our society is build. That explains their natural distrust towards all forms of paper money. But in time, they will catch up.

One further remark regarding oil and gold: If we contemplate the cost of mining and refining gold and try to denominate that cost in something intrinsic not related to money (Dollars, Euros etc), then we can not escape the conclusion that the true cost of gold should be expressed in term of energy. Indeed, if energy would be avaiable in unlimited amounts at almost no cost, we could extract gold from the sea water in huge amounts at basically no cost. That would make gold much more plentiful. The relative scarcity of energy makes gold rare. If at all, gold is cheap today because oil is extremely undervalued. That makes the mining of marginal gold ores possible which in turn lead to those 2000 tons of gold "production" per year. The easily mined gold is already gone a long time ago. We passed the Hubbert peak of gold production a long time ago. Once the price of energy goes up significantly, we will witness the collapse of gold production. It is however a mistake to assume that the falling gold production will automatically be accompanied by exploding gold prices. More about that later.
Robert
silvercollector: "gold is useless"

When using the phrase "gold is useless" I was only refering to the fact that almost all the gold ever mined is still around. This is a widely quoted fact and I am sure that we can both agree on that point. If you look at the mining of other minerals, say oil, almost nothing is preserved. Oil is completely used up within a few weeks after mining. The story is similar with other metals. Iron, copper, zinc etc are mined and consumed. Once used in industrial production, only a very tiny percentage is recycled. Most of these metals end up in the envirorement in form of corroded metal dust. You only have to take a trip by train in order to see with open eyes the wide scale corrosion in our industrial infrastructure. Bridges literaly corrody away. Old industrial buildings are abandoned in order to corrode away. Gold seems to be an exception. One of the reasons is that gold does not corrode easily. However, the main reason is that we do not use a lot of gold in industrial applications. Most of the gold goes straight from the refinary into "deep storage" - either in central banks or in the private treasure boxes of Indian ladies (jewelery). It was precisely this fact which I had in mind when writing about "useless gold". Sorry for the confusion.

You ask me to imagine gold at $30,000US/oz. and then check my statement. OK. Let's consider for a moment the situation where gold is priced at $30,000 per oz. In such a case we have to distingush at least two different scenarios:

1) gold sells for $30,000 per oz while bread at the local grocery sells for $200 per loaf. In this case, I would consider gold a bargain and would continue to buy gold coins.

2) gold sells for $30,000 per oz while bread continues to sell for $2 per loaf. In this case, I would conclude that gold is a exploding Ponzi scheme and I would rush to sell all my coins to the greater fool.

In both cases, I think, the high price of gold would have little effect on the usage of gold. Most of it would continue to end up in gold bars (central banks), coins (collectors) and jewelery (women).

You say: "BB is carefully eluding to a fact; 2/3rds of the planet conceptually at least, view gold as money."

That is precisely my opinion too. Gold is the best money there is. I take only the freedom to add that like all monies, gold is not wealth. Gold is virtual wealth in the sense that it has a purchasing power which allows us to trade it sometimes (but not always) against real wealth.
Elwood
Confiscation


FOA (12/04/99; 16:31:54MDT - Msg ID:20263)
reply
Leigh (12/04/99; 15:34:26MDT - Msg ID:20261)
Question for FOA

Hello Leigh,
You know,,,,,,,, I have thought for some time that the whole issue of gold confiscation keeps being dragged out to serve special interest. It always comes across with background overtones of: "Americans don't need physical gold, so why bother with the worry". Usually the paper pushing brokerage industry and mining industry enjoy using this angle so as to sell their product.

Like this: " " "it's the foreigners that need the real gold anyway, so let's use their problems as they drive the market higher. That will benefit our paper gold holdings and we gain without thinking about government law changes" " "

See where I'm coming from? Truly, the last time the US called in gold, it was because they needed it to square "official bookkeeping" and create new banking reserves. This happened because we were on a "fixed gold price standard". Had we not been on this, they could have just raised the gold price to $100 without calling any in from the public. It would have achieved the same reserve effect. Honestly, foreign governments did not credit the dollar as worth more because the US robbed gold from someone to pay it's debts?

Then we have the precedent of 1971? Now why on earth would we now take gold from our citizens when we just denied delivering it against the dollar? Because, you say the new price today will be so much higher. Well, they could have marked their gold to $1,000 in 1971 and still not delivered it against dollars. It would have created the same reserve increase the IMF is doing today.

You see, the whole song and dance is about dollar supremacy. If in the near future the dollar reserve function is degraded, the US will have no reason to grab gold from anyone. Hell, they could mark what they already have, market to market. Say $8,000??? Those that run the US political machine will be under the same gun as you and me. Just like a failing Russia, the leaders will be getting their hands on all the gold they can buy and shooting down all laws against private ownership. Let's face it, they won't be able to ship it overseas (foreign exchange controls) so you can bet they will want a good free dealer market for physical: "right here in the go old USA for the benefit of the voting citizens ".

Leigh, the big Western money is going to run for physical as this unfolds and they will be paying up for it with inflated dollars. At prices none of us will understand.

My take on it,,,,,,,,,,,thanks FOA
Great Albino Bat
Robert: You stated: "We have the right to pay for valuable resources (like oil and gold) in "worthless" paper money."

Robert: There is no such "right" to pay for valuable resources in Dollars.

That Dollars are accepted in payment for gold and oil, is a fact, not a right by any means. And facts are temporary phenomena.

Today, Dollars may be accepted for gold and oil. But there is no "right" to have them accepted tomorrow, next week, next month, next year or in five or ten or twenty years.

You continue stating: "Third world countries have not reached yet this high level of sophistication on which our society is build. That explains their natural distrust towards all forms of paper money. But in time, they will catch up."

The monetary and financial structure of the U.S. is not "sophisticated". It is a complicated fraud, which is not the same as sophistication. The complicated fraud is imposed upon the people of the U.S., who do not understand it and who are carefully brought up under a system of instruction (not Education) that does not permit them to acquire the knowledge to understand it.

The Dollar is unquestioned by the people of the U.S., and the U.S. imposed the Dollar upon the world, as a result of victory in WWII and undisputed military superiority.

The Dollar rolls on and on, and many people think this is a permanent state of affairs. You reflect this attitude, in calling the acceptance of the Dollar by the rest of the world, a "right".

The Dollar rolls on and on, because it ONCE WAS A SOLID CURRENCY. It continues on its path (to destruction) as long as its prestige is unblemished, based on its former glory. However, the prestige is today unwarranted. One might say that the Dollar is "running on empty".

This is going to change, and it appears that the change is nearer, day by day.

Gold will then shine once again, with its permanent lustre, as the only real money (besides silver, one day perhaps).

Now, about the impending change, recent news:

Putin has set the stage for Russian oil to be sold for Euros.

First, Putin says it might be possible. In other words, no objection.

Then, the Energy Minister says, it is possible, but we have no position with regard to that, because Russian oil is produced by private companies WHO DECIDE FOR WHAT CURRENCY THEY SELL.

Thus, the change to Euros is "de-politicized". Russia cannot be accused of aggressive measures against the Dollar, because of course, the private companies decide what currency they are going to accept in payment of their oil. Who can be against a strictly free market decision to sell for one currency or another? We are all for free markets, right?

So, the oil for Euros will not be viewed as it was with Iraq, as a political measure - though of course, it will be in fact.

And just to be sure that it is understood that Russia is not Iraq, Mr. Putin stated that the missile force of Russia is fully operational and that Russia is ready to launch a preventive strike, if threatened.

The GAB feels that it is quite likely that some Russian oil will be sold for Euros, and some for Dollars. The Europeans will get their oil for Euros; those who want to pay in Dollars, may do so, too. Big difference from present set-up.

As for GAS, the GAB does not know if Russian gas will also be sold for Euros. It would appear also likely, though, in GAB's opinion.

Guano from the GAB.




steady
ecoism_ scene one- act two- take one
previously i tried to show how ecoism dervied from capitalism/mercantilism and nationalism.
today a fourth apendage of ecomism sprouted forth.

Laissez-faire

where govt takes its hands off.
where govts want the treasury out of the red
where the govt has gold and silver in its treasury to back its currency.

Russia is practicing ecoism on a natioan level and i am not sure how to label that action. this is not the first time Mr.Putin has spoken about removing the middle man (govt) between large businesses and how they settle there trade accounts!

thats ecoism

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20031010/bs_dowjones/200310100806000404

*********"It's a decision that will ultimately be made between the buyer and the seller," Yusufov told reporters at a briefing.**********


Ten Bears
Humbert peak
There are various opinions on the amount of undiscovered oil and gas. Large offshore deposits may still be undiscovered. I would be surprised if there are more geophysical research vessels operating now than in the 1960's. Geophysical Service Inc. (Texas Instruments) alone operated a substantial number of off shore crews in that decade. Perhaps it is time for another international geophysical year. Last one 1957 @ 1958
Smeagol
regarding THEFT!, er... sss...' Confisscation'
It iss not the raresst metal in the World - like mosstmetals, it's base worth comes from It's rareness+indusstrial usefulness (which is the way Smeagol THINKS of It, as we thinks of any other metal), but UNLIKE mosst metals, upon It is piled Ages of human attitudes, behaviors, perception, and dreamses. It's rareness+indusstrial worth wouldn't change much, but the perception+politics+greed+beauty+panic+wealth shelter+desire worth changes constantly in hard-to-know ways (which influences what Smeagol DOES with It, regardless of what he THINKS of It). As like, and as unlike, anything else that can be traded, jusst much more sso... O yess.

As for confisscation (legalized plunder), it seems to us that the big Government Eye would be drawn to the mosst obvious thing - nice, shiny coins and bars. Well,in the worsst case, USE the wonderful property of It, to be changed without changing. Smeagol read a story once about a Man named Neils Bohr. He wass a chemist in Germany during the War, and he had a Gold Nobel Prize medallion. He could not leave the country with It because they would have taken It from him. So he dissolved his Precious in aqua regia and left it in a bottle in his lab. After War was over, he came back and It was sstill there, having been ssafely hidden from prying eyes like Hobbitses in elven-cloaks, yess. Then he asked if the Nobel Prize-givers could re-make his medal, and they did, because if the unusual circumsstances.

Our point is, It can always be made into other forms and shapes so as to avoid THEFT and PLUNDER, which iss what confiscation IS!!

S.

P.S. Ach!, No, Gandalf! Smeagol will behave. No Kingsfoil for us, it makes us sneeze for days! Tell Aragorn to keep itchy plants for himself!
Druid
Great Albino Bat (10/10/03; 21:29:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 110184)


"The monetary and financial structure of the U.S. is not "sophisticated". It is a complicated fraud, which is not the same as sophistication. The complicated fraud is imposed upon the people of the U.S., who do not understand it and who are carefully brought up under a system of instruction (not Education) that does not permit them to acquire the knowledge to understand it."

Druid: GAB, excellent commentary. A friend of mine used to refer to this particular type of monetary setup as the "fool'em, don't fraud'em" type of system. We used to have interesting discussions as what constituted being fooled as opposed to being defrauded. Once again, great post.
melda laure
Smarter Safer, More Secure..sssssss
I had to laugh when I saw that in the newspaper. Seems the new "motto" is getting around. The new money is about as smart as any other piece of paper- the difference between this new "20" and toilet paper is that TP only gets used once which to my mind makes it a much better value. Given all the germs you come into contact with, you have to wonder: is it really safer? Well, they haven't figured out a design that would keep TPTB from inflating away the value of your paper dollars as of yet. That leaves the more secure aspect. Seems the only thing that is being secured is the franchise of the Fed. You still cant tell one bill from another, loose one and it's gone, it's not like it was one of those travelers cheques.

Inflation: legalized plunder today, legalized plunder yesterday, legalized plunder furever. Nope, I'll take my chances. (Now if I could just make and ounce of gold a bit lighter as well as invisible, that would be oh so handy - half a second, must be the effect of too much drink)
Robert
GAB: the "right" to pay
Dear GAB, I think you misunderstood what I tried to say. When I said "we have the right to pay" I meant to say, we as a nation have the right to pay for valuable resources with paper. And that is indeed true despite what you have countered. First of all, it is not true what you try to imply that the US Dollar is accepted on world markets on a voluntarily basis. Many countries like Japan, Germany and Saudi Arabia are being forced by secret government agreements to accept and hold US Dollars. Japan for instance had to agree at the end of WWII not to accumulate gold instead to hold US Dollars as central bank reserves. Germany had to agree to hold a substantial amount of US Dollars in order to obtain the US protection against the former Soviet Union. Chances are that Saddam would still be in power in Iraq if he would not have made the stupid mistake of challenging the US by announcing that he does not want to accept US Dollars as payment for his oil. As a nation, thanks to the clever policies of our government during the past 60 years, we enjoy a unique position in the world where we can print paper and indeed have the right to pay with that paper for foreign imports. Thanks to ingenious policies of the IMF and the world bank, many nations do not have any choice but must export to the US in order to earn our paper. You can object against that on moral grounds, however, from a purely legal point of view this is indeed our right in the sense that it is legal and that no other nation has this priviledge. Our government has been working hard for many decades in order to achieve that goal and to create that priviledge for us. You may not like that, but this is not a reason to deny the truth.
Black Blade
Robert - Gold and Oil

I think that we are really not all that far off on our thinking but rather how we percieve what we have written about Gold and Oil (or as I prefer - "Energy"). That said, as I have a few things to catch up on following my daily workout at the gym and am late in getting to the heart of the matter I think taht I will repost (in two parts) "The Rise and Fall of Hydrocarbon Man" later for some weekend reading when posting is a bit light. Though it was written a few short years ago it still is as true now as it was then though some technological advancements have been made that could help extend the global oil supply of "cheap energy" from nonconventional sources.

As far as Gold it is more rare than ever on a per person basis. Over 5,000 years (actually over 9,000 years if you account for the early Thracians), gold has always been considered of such value to be used as money for goods and services and even today is prized by the majority of the earth's population. Even well heeled high net worth individuals are buyers and not just for jewelry but for investment. But enough of that for now - as I have some work that requires my more immediate attention. Who knows, in some ways we may actually be thinking more alike but just have a different perception of what each of us intended to say. That is where the written word is not always as easily interpreted without the visual language of facial and body language as well.

I also have some interesting stories about Gold and value from the Third World and even among the more "advanced societies" as well. Quite enlightening for some.

Cheers for now.

- Black Blade

BTW, Gandy, with Xmas not far off a gift of gold and silver (bullion or coin) may be a consideration we might want to consider as that gift giving season fast approaches. Cheers!
Smeagol
what a day
If the US can break its promises, then we sees no reason others can't (but perhaps if Iraq had waited, until a group of countries all at once sswitched to Euro? the US can't beat up everyone at once)

Ssuch JUICY possts today! Almost as good as freshly caught fissh!

Ow, our head is not used to all thiss much reading and wondering, so Smeagol is going to ssneak a pint of ale from Master's cellar and walk under Stars. Sneak and think...

--------

Note to Sam: Please order another barrel of 1845. It seems we're running a little low, and we're having guests over next weekend.

F. B.
Paper Avalanche
@ Robert
You stated:

"We do not need gold in order to live well."

Where I believe that you fail yourself and others who may be consumed in the eternal pursuit of material things and/or the requisite acquiesence to those who would see fit to narrate your life from cradle to grave, I give you the following from one of our founding fathers:

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand
that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

Dear Robert, I believe that you are able to dissuade those who come to this forum seeking wealth and fortune, however, those who are students of history recognize the value of gold in establishing a universally recognized common denominator among men such that no man may make a claim of superiority over others based upon paper promises of indebtedness.

We (the US) do not need gold to live well as long as we are the reserve currency of the world. Such an implied benefit (or exhorbitant privilege) is our birthrite as the benefactors of the Bretton Woods accords until something changes to affect our position in the world.

Something is now happening to do just that.

Understand the difference between living well and living free. I do not believe that you do.

Take care.

PA
melda laure
Food for thought, part 1.5
the curse of midas.Sir Black blade, so truly do you speak; indeed the cost of any other thing is measured not in dollars, but in capital, energy, materials, effort and time. Years ago, when Spain brought home the gathered plunder of the west, the people of europe discovered this as the new minted gold fell in purchasing power over the years. But the most obvious effect was that Spain could purchase more of the limited produce of europe be that in goods, workers or (as it turned out) soldiers for her wars against islam.

What did not change was the limited productivity of europe. At least not at first. For along with the stolen money came a strange gift. Perhaps if the hobbits would spare a moment to consider the contents of both plate and bottle and consider the source of these foods, corn and beans and squash, chiles, tomatoes, potatoes, cassava, pineapple, (ok so there's one you haven't seen much) and these are but a sample of the more well known items. It must be remembered that in 1492 there was only human power and animal power. The economic impact of steam was nil. The economic impact of coal was minor, a mere substitute for wood to burn, not a substitute for men to work. (Ok, so I hear a couple of dwarves reminding me that they built a toy steam driven pump for Lord Gudea of Lagash so he could dispense beer from the high seat, lets stick to the present age ok?). Wind, limited to a few countries. Water wheels, limited to places where water fell fast enough.

Consider for a moment just the potato, and how it provided more food for the northern countries, so that more people could devote time to manufactured goods, and the development of new crafts (now called technology) By itself the gold of the new world could only bid on goods from africa and the east. But the new foods became a new source of WEALTH. A completely scalable and renewable source of ENGERGY. Where before, europe clothed itself in wool, strictly limited by the available land for sheep, now cotton and other fibers allowed more land for other uses.

The exact role of banks, government and the like in creating socialism in later years is something I find interesting. Yet when Sir GAB paused to speak of "financial energy" something in my mind seemed to flinch and demand audience, for not gold alone, nor finance, nor the laws protecting capital altogether sufficed to enable the experiments in socialism. As I seem to recall, the greeks despised democracy (at least the famous intellectual ones we seem to hear about most often). Europe of the middle ages took its government from the ancient near east. From them they did learn reverence for the valar, and from thence also did they fall from wisdom of reverence into the madness of worship, the divine rights of kings and tyranny. Only in the time of legend or in old wives tales do we hear of the days long before when the people still lived as free men (and I do mean men, since it seems that dwarves hobbits and elves seem free of it, even if we have our serious blood feuds on occasion,) Long ago when men still could hold reverence for the valar without worshiping also their kings.

For you see, there was another prize that europe greatly desired. Yet its secrets they could not find, the divine formula they could not discover, and finding but scraps and threads they could not assemble the whole cloth. Instead they created socialism and all her bastard children, and finally her monstrous child communism. And not willing to admit ignorance, nor even, they brought these back and would teach them to the inhabitants of the new world as though men could teach dwarves smithcraft.

Druid "All history is full of war"

Indeed, and who is it we are fighting. The left over shadows of morgoth? Or is it the effects of overweening greed? It is one thing to be so greedy for wealth that we diligently work to accquire it. It is quite another if we merely would steal it from others.

Druid "Today, as you read this more gold is traded and purchased than at any time in the history of the world."

It is true. Also true is that there is more WEALTH than at any other time in history. Take my word for it. Gold is a little thing for he that has no bread. With gold, it is true that he that has no bread may buy some - if there is any to be had; and if not, then he that hath much bread may buy ALL the gold that would rather eat than await the future harvest that may not come. Indeed, is gold money? Many here have said it is wealth, and that it CAN be money. Frank Shostak has a piece where he suggests that far back in the past gold came to be used as money. I wonder what he would make of the Inca? Or of several other similar nations. Of course Frank has not read the inca writings of the old kingdom, before books were abandoned. Though this tale I must pass for another time.

And for all its many faults, the US is still the leading example of freedom, though I admit, no longer an example of peace. But of that there are many excellent and worthy examples in this hemisphere. And while Engles and Marx may have utterly failed to learn the secret of liberty from the peoples of the new world, it is not yet too late for the rest of us to rediscover the understanding that guided jefferson and franklin and many others, an understanding that came of direct experience and observation of what were some of the oldest "democracies" then in existence. It is only 511 years, a short time for men to unlearn the errors of that doomed rome.

Sir Albino Bat, I found your post informative. Indeed it still raises questions I do not know how to answer.


And that will have to do for the present. But perhaps I can recommend a book, Jack Wetherfords' "Indian Givers". I guarantee it does discuss gold, and 15th century mining techniques, and of course food, else the hobbits couldn't stay awake to the end of the tale. It even has tales of socialism for those who like scary stories.
melda laure
We forbade them weapons so they fashioned their own
Star Trek Vor was that a different episode, what is this stuff you're serving smeagol, my head is spinning! Aaaghth this is the peyote beer! It's supposed to be in the medicine cabinet... not the cellar!


"Dear Robert, I believe that you are able to dissuade those who come to this forum seeking wealth and fortune, however, those who are students of history recognize the value of gold in establishing a universally recognized common denominator among men such that no man may make a claim of superiority over others based upon paper promises of indebtedness."

If we can not live honorably with gold it is unlikely we will live more honorably without it. I have heard the same is true of weapons. In either case, history has shown both to be true (for specific cases of history). Today we blame fiat for our poverty. Tommorrow I shall not be surprised if we (or someone else) will blame gold.

Gold raises the price of stupidity, fiat lowers it. Weapons raise the cost of war. And though lawyers aren't free, there seems to be more and more of them. Those that aren't sick dont need a doctor. But for those who would end disease, they could try something a bit more intelligent than to kill all the doctors.
Aristotle
Robert = Andy Smith
'nuff said.

Gold. Get you some. 'Cause the *Smiths* (bullion bankers) of the world are PANICKING. --- Ari
Paper Avalanche
Naysayer / Newbie Alert Number
I agree with Ari.

Robert typifies the anticipated anti-gold propoganda machine that one would expect during critical moments in the history between paper and physical gold.

If you are a newbie to the forum and confused by this apparent infighting on the forum, I would invite you to spend your time on the gold trail and the hall of fame posts rather than try to figure out who on the forum is an old timer and who is a (Robert) plant seeking to delay the inevitable.

Take care all.

PA
Aristotle
Etc...
The worst waste of raw intelligence is in the (blindish) servitude of a vested interest while in thrall to an inferior existence. (That's a BIG *BIG* PICTURE Thing, fella.)

'Tis better that the chicken came before the egg, eh Andy? Meaning,,,,,, 'twould be better that you established your ideology before *before* BEFORE selling your soul merely to save your business-related bacon (paycheck).

So says the tiniest champion of the human condition. (i.e., If you can't pull the wool over MY eyes, you've failed already.)

Gold. Made easier for us by your shameful bullion banking servitude. --- Aristotle
melda laure
whoops!
better edit out #110195For some its sacred cows, for others scripture or their books, and others its sacred cacti... I shouldve kept my mouth shut instead of saying stupid things
Waverider
Japan: The rapid run on dollar assets
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/EJ10Dh01.html"With the Nikkei stock average currently flirting with 11,000, up about 45 percent from its post-bubble 13-year low of 7,607.88 in April, it is starting to appear that a run on US dollar assets could well be causing the rise in Japanese stock markets. The flight of global investors from the dollar has serious implications, not only for the health of markets such as Japan's, but because of the peril to the US economy and thus the global economy as well, for which the United States has acted as economic engine and importer of last the resort. The US must take in $55 billion per day in investment in government paper and securities to fund the enormous deficits in its fiscal budget and its current account, the total balance of goods and services it trades with other countries. The current account deficit is expected to hit more than $540 billion in 2003, with the fiscal deficit trending towards $600 billion when off-budget liabilities are factored in.

Given the American deficits, other economists are also looking at the dollar as overvalued. As the American economy's weakness comes into focus, the dollar has to fall to reflect its real fundamentals."
silvercollector
Robert
From yours:

"When using the phrase "gold is useless" I was only refering to the fact that almost all the gold ever mined is still around. This is a widely quoted fact and I am sure that we can both agree on that point."

Let's analyse this.

"...almost all the gold ever mined is still around." Yes we can agree on that.

The fact that "almost all the gold ever mined is still around" makes gold useless? No we can't agree on that. The fact that "almost all the gold ever mined is still around" makes it useful, very useful or it wouldn't be around, yes?

If you are stuck on that consider the same statement perverted slighty, "..all the fiat ever produced is NOT around.." Seems fiat has lost it's use if it is gone, yes?

Simple concept man, you're down 2 touchdowns and it's the 4th quarter, GET IN THE GAME!

sc
silvercollector
Ari, PA
We have a spy?! a plant?! a troll?!

Must come up with something witty....a carnival barker!! No that's one's used.

A manipulation monster....a M&M!


RED ALERT!

We have a M&M aboard.
DummyANI
@Black Blade (10/10/03; 23:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 110191)
If an oil is produced from a water, what will happen ?For a western people, an oil is digging from the earth. So USA conquered on Iraq.

But God present us a simple fact that an oil is produced from a water, and if a genius invents a method by which the oil can be produced from the water, we can live in a more comfortable world.

Do you know a soybean can produce an oil-seed ?
LeSin
Gold Honest Wealth Asset -- Some Truth for Robert
Robert said:

"Chances are that Saddam would still be in power in Iraq if he would not have made the stupid mistake of challenging the US by announcing that he does not want to accept US Dollars as payment for his oil. As a nation, thanks to the clever policies of our government during the past 60 years, we enjoy a unique position in the world where we can print paper and indeed have the right to pay with that paper for foreign imports. Thanks to ingenious policies of the IMF and the world bank, many nations do not have any choice but must export to the US in order to earn our paper. You can object against that on moral grounds, however, from a purely legal point of view this is indeed our right in the sense that it is legal and that no other nation has this privilege. Our government has been working hard for many decades in order to achieve that goal and to create that privilege for us. You may not like that, but this is not a reason to deny the truth."

Lesin:

The above statements reflect such an ugly arrogance that renders any attempt to comment with calm reason difficult. Tyranny, oppression, dictates of fascists, manipulation of economies & countries and stand over tactics by ones military might and nuclear arsenal; that enforce and force the US$ use are NOT legal actions.

One might argue that Iraq's leaders were denied their freedom of choice, and civil rights to choose a currency that best suited their "sovereign" nation. What of international law? Pre-emptive strikes and attacks created an illegal war, notwithstanding the morality issues as well. Death of innocent men, women and children - you call "clever government policy"?

"Ingenious-policies" of the IMF and US Gov.? The moral decay has truly established itself deep into your thought process. It has denied you of your ability to reason and has impaired your duty to fairness and the pursuits of equality and justice for all. Might is right, the winner takes all, power of the rich, are you suggesting that those things make it right to do what ever it takes to maintain the USA hegemony? Even pre-emptive strikes against sovereign nations? Trade embargos that starve children and deny medical treatments and needed pharmaceuticals? It is estimated that trade embargoes over the past 10 -12 years against Iraq promoted the death of hundreds of thousand innocent children.

What you call the "truth" is exposed by your own words as something else. What you call your governments hard work to create privilege is non other than common fraud, price manipulations, corruption to the top of your governments, deceit, lies and murder of the innocent, you may understand murder of the innocent as collateral damage. Fancy phrases and twisted terminology does not stop the mothers tears nor does it replace the loss of a city or country.

All of the your justifications, admissions, rants and cries of the legality of it all in your present system are but whimpering cries of a people and its' government lost. Direction and purpose have been confused by wanton greed and corruption. Your system and hegemony is drowning in debt and corruption.

It is of no little surprise that Physical GOLD scares your ilk! Gold and other precious metals, but especially Gold remain the Worlds only proven and tested by time, asset. The only store of wealth that endures and withstands your ilk.

I am so very sorry to take up space of this fine forum, but your matter of fact style of arrogance, promoting your hegemony and its' actions as 'legal' was just to much to swallow.

Cheers "S"
Gold Standard
The "new" $20 USD bill
http://www.perthweb.net.au/aboutperth/currency.shtmlI would like the Oaken Table's input on this, even though it is (slightly) off topic. I have seen a considerable amount of commentary on the "new" coloured $20 bill soon to be introduced to the United States.

To my foreign eyes, the "new" bill looks almost identical to the "old" bill! I have always been frustrated by US currency, being the same colour and size, and the only point of differentiation being the numbers on the corner!

I cannot believe the media frenzy being swept up by the introduction of the "new" bill. In Australia, we have had completely different coloured notes since 1966, and these were replaced by plastic compound notes with transparent "windows" some 20 years ago, as an aid to minimise counterfeiting. See above URL for samples.

Why all the fuss?

Cheers!
LeSin
Gold Get You Some - Still Very Cheap For the Weight of It

Physical GOLD IS:

Portable & Transportable

One can ship it like any other freight or cargo by trains, planes & automobiles.

One can wear it, all sorts of jewellery from chains, rings and golden thingies.

One can store it in blocks, wafers, bars, coins and tokens.

Try some on your chocolate cake as icing flakes - Makes you feel good just looking at it.

Fire & heat will only improve it and refine it.

Water will not dissolve it.

Ice will not crack it.

Kings and paupers will accept it as payment and exchange it.
Oil (black gold) the life blood of modern industry - is traded for it.

Wise men and women value it still, as an ultimate wealth asset.

Wise men and women acquire it because they understand and know that all fiat currencies eventually fail into
a downward spiral of devaluation - due to over exposure.

Cheers "S" Good night and good weekend from the wonderful land of OZ DownUnder.
Aristotle
Combatting orc mischief and cave-trollery
Sir silvercollector, you said it, brother. I can't think of much that could be worse for the common good than having a bunch of poison pills parading around as M&Ms in the candy dish.

In the interest of separating the bad from the good, let me point out that I respect bankers. I really do. As far as I might dare cast businessmen of all sorts into various stereotypes, bankers are definitely among the finest folk I've found.

HOWEVER..... I hasten to add that *bullion* bankers are specifically EXCLUDED from that class. They're the lowest of the low. They give banking a bad name. They have no integrity. None!

Here's what I mean. You'll almost never hear a *regular* banker beating a drum for media attention and saying that their money is akin to garbage and best left untouched by human hands. But that's *exactly* the sort of two-faced behavior we see from those self-serving bullion bankers like A.Smith, always on guard against a positive investor sentiment for Gold which would effectively translate into a run, putting them out of business.

Only from the mouths of fools and bullion bankers will you hear the words "Gold is useless." It's egregious coming from the bullion bankers, because they know they *KNOW* they are lying through their teeth (while fools, on the other hand, are simply unaccountable as such.)

Sheeeesh. What a world.

Gold. Get you some, and smile, knowing that you're putting the screws to a bullion banker. --- Aristotle
contrarian
leSin's response to Robert
Thank you LeSin for your response to that post, which, with what I now know about the global picture, I found disturbing. Or let me be more specific...whether or not Robert agrees with the opinion he put forth, I find that manner of thinking deplorable.

Pride goeth before a fall, and it appears the end game of all this will ultimately be the total destruction of the paper currency the dollar.

The powers that be are too stupid to see the larger picture, and are merely prolonging the agony; consequently the end picture will be far more catastrophic than it needs to be. But what else can you expect from self-serving politicians. The Founding Fathers would be rolling in their hallowed graves if they saw what was going on. And how what they had so carefully put together was being roundly destroyed by idiots.
Belgian
Stability and Growth.....
Today, there are some analogies with what happened in the period 1920-1930 with Sir Montagu Norman as the Governor of the Bank of England. We will soon find out if the Duisenberg > Trichet - policies, have similarities with '20-'30 as the period of "Brittania Rules the Waves" ?

Sir Norman was the then "currency dictator of Europe", who
wanted Churchill to become the "Golden" chancellor.

One particular thing (out of many other similarities) struck me, when looking into the turbulent Gold-history of that period : THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE GOLD FLOW FROM LONDON TO NEW YORK, NORMAN REASONED, WAS TO GET THE UNITED STATES TO LAUNCH A POLICY OF EASY MONEY, LOW INTEREST RATES, REFLATION, AND A WEAK DOLLAR...in short, a policy of price-inflation !!!

Today, Euroland (in particular Germany) wants high/higher oilprices ! (Shroder in Saudi Arabia and Russia)(SA and Russia co-operation). This is not as paradoxal as one might think.

High/higher oilprices generate "elegant" tax-income as to overcome the present growing deficits (3% > 4%) in Euroland.
Oilproducers do like this attitude and are handed another argument for having oil (and gas) sold for euro, be it partial at the beginning. More "stable" euro for Russian/Arabian energy means more growth in euro-trade between those resource rich regions and Euroland.

IMO, a handy and elegant solution to support-expand (export) the Stability and Growth-concept of the EMU.

A strong Chinese delegation was visiting Brussels...
Nobel Price for peace went to IRAN...
Turkish troops (10,000) are NOT yet in Iraq...

Note that Euroland IRs remain higher than the US' IRs. When Brittania ruled the waves, Norman's goal was British financial supremacy. Montagu Norman's golden pound would have been unthinkable without the puppet role of Bnjamin Strong of the New York Federal Reserve Bank. Is this simalar for the ECB (BIS) and its growing alliances ?

All thoughts appreciated.

@ Gold Standard : The new $20 bill in itself is not worth any fuss...But is this an introduction of a two tier dollar-system with exchange controls ?
If the euro can keep on growing succesfully, the dollar reserve is going to make some strong moves...

The stockmarket crash of 1929 and US gold-confiscation that followed, were also strong moves !
Those currency wars never ended and might have entered into a new decisive phase, at present.
Dollar Bill
*>*............+
In Q&A following his speech (and in the midst of rampant speculation) in response to a question about possible over-valuation, Dr. Bernanke commented, "Stocks have risen significantly since March and I think that increase in stocks reflects justifiable optimism about the future of the economy." The Fed is as determined to inflate Bubbles. From Bernanke's speech: "If all goes as planned, the changes in financial asset prices and returns induced by the actions of monetary policymakers lead to the changes in economic behavior that the policy was trying to achieve."

Hmmm, guess the cat is out of the bag, as we guessed, the Fed is behind the bull market we have been seeing.
Dollar Bill
">"
Sir Belgian, I was reading that the euro is an easy mark for counterfeiters.
Druid
ANDREW JACKSON'S FAREWELL ADDRESS
http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ajackson.htm"THE MESSAGES AND PAPERS OF THE PRESIDENTS"
(Page 1511 - 1527)
By
James D. Richardson
1910 Edition
Published By
Bureau Of National Literature And Art
FELLOW-CITIZENS, Being about to retire finally from public life, I beg leave to offer you my grateful thanks for the many proofs of kindness and confidence which I have received at your hands. It has been my fortune in the discharge of public duties, civil and military, frequently to have found myself in difficult and trying situations, where prompt decisions and energetic action were necessary, and where the interest of the country required that high responsibilities should be fearlessly encountered; and it is with the deepest emotions of gratitude that I acknowledge the continued and unbroken confidence with which you have sustained me in every trial. My public life has been a long one, and I can not hope that it has at all times been free from errors; but I have the consolation of knowing that if mistakes have been committed they have not seriously injured the country I so anxiously endeavored to serve, and at the moment when I surrender my last public trust I leave this great people prosperous and happy, in the full enjoyment of liberty and peace, and honored and respected by every nation of the world.

If my humble efforts have in any degree contributed to preserve to you these blessings, I have been more than rewarded by the honors you have heaped upon me, and, above all, by the generous confidence with which you have supported me in every peril and with which you have continued to animate and cheer my path to the closing hour of my political life. The time has now come when advanced age and a broken frame warn me to retire from public concerns, but the recollection of the many favors you have bestowed upon me is engraved upon my heart, and I have felt that I could not part from your service without making this public acknowledgment of the gratitude I owe you. And if I use the occasion to offer to you the counsels of age and experience, you will, I trust, receive them with the same indulgent kindness which you have so often extended to me, and will at least see in them an earnest desire to perpetuate in this favored land the blessings of liberty and equal law.

We have now lived almost fifty years under the Constitution framed by the sages and patriots of the Revolution. The conflicts in which the nations of Europe were engaged during a great part of this period, the spirit in which they waged war against each other, and our intimate commercial connections with every part of the civilized world rendered it a time of much difficulty for the Government of the United States. We have had our seasons of peace and of war, with all the evils which precede or follow a state of hostility with powerful nations. We encountered these trials with our Constitution yet in its infancy, and under the disadvantages which a new and untried government must always feel when it is called upon to put forth its whole strength without the lights of experience to guide it or the weight of precedents to justify its measures. But we have passed triumphantly through all these difficulties. Our Constitution is no longer a doubtful experiment, and at the end of nearly half a century we find that it has preserved unimpaired the liberties of the people, secured the rights of property, and that our country has improved and is flourishing beyond any former example in the history of nations.

In our domestic concerns there is everything to encourage us, and if you are true to yourselves nothing can impede your march to the highest point of national prosperity. The States which had so long been retarded in their improvement by the Indian tribes residing in the midst of them are at length relieved from the evil, and this unhappy race - the original dwellers in our land - are now placed in a situation where we may well hope that they will share in the blessings of civilization and be saved from that degradation and destruction to which they were rapidly hastening while they remained in the States; and while the safety and comfort of our own citizens have been greatly promoted by their removal, the philanthropist will rejoice that the remnant of that ill-fated race has been at length placed beyond the reach of injury or oppression, and that the paternal care of the General Government will hereafter watch over them and protect them.

If we turn to our relations with foreign powers, we find our condition equally gratifying. Actuated by the sincere desire to do justice to every nation and to preserve the blessings of peace, our intercourse with them has been conducted on the part of this Government in the spirit of frankness; and I take pleasure in saying that it has generally been met in a corresponding temper. Difficulties of old standings have been surmounted by friendly discussion and the mutual desire to be just, and the claims of our citizens, which have long been withheld, have at length been acknowledged and adjusted and satisfactory arrangements made for their final payment; and with a limited, and I trust a temporary, exception, our relations with every foreign power are now of the most friendly character, our commerce continually expanding, and our flag respected in every quarter of the world.

Druid: Peach colored fiat $20, we are such a "sophisticated" crowd. Enjoy.
Dollar Bill
*>*.............-l-
Sir LeSin, I was relieved to find out more about the oil for food program run by the UN in Iraq.
Turns out it was not the US that caused any shortages of medical supplies of water plant replacement parts.
France, Germany and Russia and Kofi Anan were in charge of the program and had every opportunity to make it better.
Since they wanted Saddam to use the euro, and he demanded
help from them to get the UN off his back, they joined him in his effort to get the US to give up sanctions by
a false media push to blame the US for Saddams own cruelty to his people.
By the way, there is a video of saddam unleashing 2 dogs to eat alive a general that displeased him.

[offensive material deleted]

Not to say that all your points were in error or anything.
Hope I dont imply that.
Max Rabbitz
Robert & LeSin
Robert......"Our government has been working hard for many decades in order to achieve that goal and to create that priviledge for us. You may not like that, but this is not a reason to deny the truth."

Yes, of course they and their banker bosses have been working very hard at this.....but not for "us". We're just going to lose our jobs. That "priviledge" reminds me of the privilege Al Capone had in Chicago. The protection he offered could be questioned on moral grounds although no state court would convict. When that day of Reckoning comes and the dollar has been all used up our Financial Masters will have moved into another currency and left us holding the bag. They'll need some gold, but just enough to start the next scam.......if they can escape the enraged mobs.

LeSin.......well said but I must object to the part about Iraqi children deaths. The Iraqi dictator could have bought all the food and medicine he wanted but chose to spend on palaces and weapons. There is enough evil in the world to go around without having to pile it all in one place.
Belgian
@ Ari....
Yep Ari, right you are ! Never mind that the word "bullion-banker" is a nice cover for something much, MUCH uglier and Bigger than most are suspecting.
Knowingly or unknowingly, you went right to the hart of the matter, imvvvvho, of course.
BTW, did you hear me yelling, HAHAAAAAA !? Of course you did, because you are thingking and LIVING out of the classical "box", aren't you, Sir ?!

Most of what is happening now is just the repetition of what happened before...in French, L'histoire se r�p�te.
glennh10
Dollar "Rights"
GAB, thanks for the great post (Great Albino Bat (10/10/03; 21:29:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 110184).

A "right" is never imposed. Does a neighborhood bully have a "right" to intimidate? The U.S. dollar is an imposition on the world. I relate it to a drug addiction. The fact that a drug pusher enjoys power over an addict doesn't give him such a "right". Today's world-wide monetary system, with today's dollar at the helm, is a scheme, a fraud, a fake-out, at home and abroad. And like any lie, the success of today's fraudulent dollar is limited. The system as a whole is nothing more than a casino.

As far as laws are concerned, many are passed and enforced in response to "emergencies"; following war, agreements are often made between the victors and the defeated. That doesn't mean such laws or agreements are just. Gold as money provides a just means of exchange, a level playing field. TPTB however, prefer a system where they enjoy structural advantages. Today's dollar provides them that. Today's ubiquitous dollar system is imposed. It is not our "right".

The most significant, refreshing statement I recently found in the news was about the Russian official who stated that a dollar or Euro sale of Russian oil was not a matter of the Russian gov't, but rather a decision to be made between buyer and seller. How refreshing! Then also, the Russians reiterated their ability to defend themselves militarily. These two facts, from my reading, are not unrelated. Putin is stating that, unlike the case with Iraq, the U.S. cannot expect to militarily impose a dollar-for-oil scheme on Russian oil. Should get interesting.

Belgian
@ Dollar Bill
Yes, there were (will always remain) problems with counterfeit euronotes in circulation. But...of course, according to the spin doctors, the euro is...must be, the *easiest* currency to be counterfeited ! Yep, just Xerox it and off you go.
Currency counterfeiters, recently stopped printing false dollar notes and focus entirely on the euronotes now...because this job is 18% more profitable than the previous dollar job, these days ! Joke D.B. Funny or not, just give us a friendly smile .

Putin's most recent statement : Russia does NOT want higher oilprices and will take action against OPEC's price-policies !!! What a great *show* this oil for euro thing !
Let us talk "Chechnya" for a while...and get Iraq from those screens up until nov.'04.

Ongoing battles, dear forumers...perpetual, currency-oil-Gold wars ! This, whilst many innocent, totally innocent folks are always/still paying the highiest price possible,...their own live and that of their beloved ones. FOR NOTHING IN RETURN. Let us NEVER forget this, whilst we debate on these sad wars. Thanks.


Paper Avalanche
As Monty Burns would say...... Ehhhkkkssselent
Gold: new focus of investment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More domestic investors are interested in tapping into the gold market, with more than 20 percent of stock investors willing to transfer part of their funds to the gold market, according to a questionnaire of investors in ten Chinese cities, sina.com.cn reported yesterday.

Gold has boasted a high profile in China, with over 70 percent of respondents favoring gold, according to the questionnaire.

More than 20 percent of investors are ready to transfer part of their funds to the gold market, and 7.5 million stock investors will invest in gold in the near future, said a questionnaire analyst.

If each stock investor puts 14,000 to 26,000 yuan (US$1,686 - US$3,132) into the gold market, a total of 100-190 billion yuan is expected to be injected into the gold market, the analyst said.

Housing properties, cars and education are the top three options that people are willing to spend their extra money on, followed by investing in stocks, collection and bullion, the questionnaire indicated.



Wendy Zhang/ Shanghai Daily news

Tick tock Robert, tick tock.

PA
Great Albino Bat
Robert, sonny boy,....

You are way out of your depth here.

This Forum is a special place; respectful of the opinions of others, and where honest differences are cordially accepted.

Here, you are reading a great deal of economic Truth, not available in any but perhaps one or two private colleges in the U.S.A. (if they still exist) and nowhere else in the world, to my knowledge.

This is not the place for you. You want a place where all are parroting to one another, the same falsities that one hears and reads in Academia, in Publishing, in Cinema, in TV media.

You will be more comfortable there. And so will we, when you realize it.

Sincerely

The GAB
Belgian
@glennh10
It becomes more obvious for the general public (Russians included) that Putin will have to excercise all his maneuvering skills and diplomacy as to remain in place.
It is not the first time in history that Russia (Russia's choices) will become very decisive on the "energy" and "currency" outcome...war and peace.
All statements have "nothing" to do with any ideology, good or bad. These are nothing else but maneuvers on the different battle fields. Politics is about personal, private interests and very, VERY little about general well-being !!! We simple do forget this vital given, too often in our reflexions.

Happy people who wish to remain happy, stay out of politics and are easier to convince (educate) to go for honest GOLD. Unfortunately a lot of good folks lack the needed insight to come to these conclusions, IN TIME !

When I'm talking about Russia or Putin, please note that I do always feel terribly embarresed (ashamed) with the knowledge that the Chechnya cruel atrocity is still going on ! An infernal dehumanising drama for/about oil ! This is another generally ignored/unnoticed aspect of the WOT ...war about oil ! And imo, there is still much more suffering going to come up as the different currency/energy/economic struggles continue to detoriate.

N. Korea, China, India/Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, Africa, Israel/Palestine, etc...and even the murder of many individuals, fathers (Kelly), mothers (A.Lindh) in so called democratic states.

This almost sounds like a Brussels, pr� Christmas speech...
ge
Euro/Yen topping?
Liberty Head
Thanks To Robert

Your postings have moved many of our most esteemed forum members to respond. The response you evoked was quite awesome to behold.
Here is a place where folks respond much like a minuteman militia, without all the bloodshed.
Here is a place where honesty, integrity, wisdom, freedom and responsibility trump hype, romance, illusion and ignorance.
The values expressed and implied here daily are the same values practiced by the founders of this nation.
Our shared interest in gold is rooted in these same values.
For these reasons, I choose to visit this forum daily.

Best Wishes
CoBra(too)
Some Thoughts from the "Privateer"
"Today, we live in a world of financial fraud. The most tragic part of this situation is that everyone, including countless millions of honest men and women who offer an honest effort in return for their reward, are at the mercy of those fraudsters who produce the means of payment out of thin air and then force their fellows to "accept" it in return for their honest effort. The present situation has moved beyond mere economic imbalances. It has entered the realm of the BIG con.

Right now, the biggest and most obvious con is the $US Gold "price". The worse the actual economic situation has become this year, the more Gold has been "compressed". Since Gold reached its 2003 highs just over two weeks ago, this "compression" has reached the danger level - dangerous for those doing the "compressing", that is. Springs always snap back. That is the certain future for the $US Gold "price". The tighter the spring is coiled and the longer it stays compressed, the more powerful the snap back will be".

Not much to add, though feelin' a bit worried about my American friends in particular as well as feelin' real worried in general.

Still, the lingering thought coming to mind - how, in hell, could we have let this monster escalate to today's non-recurrable dimensions? ...And not even touching of the bigger fraud of the derivative pyramiding scheme ...

O(r)h well, have a great weekend all and all Canadian friends a great turkey dinner on your Thanksgiving Monday -
...cb2
Aristotle
Thank you, Belgian.
Probably more than anything I'm gladdened to see we've successfully boosted you over your fatigue!

Gold. Solid. --- Ari
goldenpeace
Haiku
is the sun useless to man?
golden foundation, as well?
Gold: the only real savings.

Peace,
Blessings to the Honorable Forum
Bowing
goldenpeace
Great Albino Bat
Some thoughts on the new $20 US bill

The appearance of this new bill has provoked quite a bit of discussion; there may or may not be sinister ulterior motives involved. Time will reveal them, if they do exist, in due course.

At the very least, what the new bill illustrates is that those who determine these things, whoever they may be, like to tinker with accepted things. This demonstrates an anti-conservative attitude. Conservatives like to see permanence and distrust change, especially change for its own sake.

In all other countries, in the past 100 years or so, changes in the aspect of bills have ALWAYS accompanied devaluations and financial chaos.

Changes in the aspect of what we use for money, the dollar bills, are a mark of disrespect or devaluation of the Past.
The new bills show us, how little regard there is for the Past.

This fits in well with the present day actions of the monetary authorities - namely the FED. All logic and rationality has been abandoned. Just listen to the likes of Bernanke and McTeer. These are individuals who have no compass to guide them, no principles on which to base their actions. "Try this - maybe it will work" That's Pragmatism, the gift of William James towards the dissolution of the USA. "There are no principles, no true and no false; all is relative: if "it works", then it is "true"."

Intellectual bankruptcy we may call it, and it always precedes material and financial bankruptcy.

The ship we are on has no pilot, no compass, no planned course and no desired port. Recipe for foundering!

The ship of State is going to come up on the rocks, count on it. New bills=rearranging the deck chairs, if nothing else.

Enjoy the privilege of life, this weekend.

The GAB


specie-man
oil from water
Hydro-carbons (oil), as the name implies, contain carbon. Petroleum is an "organic" (carbon-containing) compound - molecules generally made of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen.

Pure water contains no carbon. To turn water into oil, it would take the addition of carbon, along with more energy input than the total energy output of the resulting oil. In other words - a loosing proposition in energey "economics".

Vegetable oils, however, have some potential. They essentially use enrgey from the sun to create oil. But the energy in that oil is no where near the energy content of traditional crude oil.

Old Yeller
Robert,the right to pay

What you have described is known in certain circles as a protection racket.

If you are running a protection racket,one mustn't get too greedy or over-extended.Or,as a result of these errors of oversight,engage in blatant piracy to extend your grasp on economic hegemony( also known in certain circles as counterfeiting.
DummyANI
@specie-man (10/11/03; 17:10:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 110227)
Plant uses a solar energy in order to convert water into
starch, not an oil.
Unknown process makes an oil from a starch.
I think it is possible for a genius to convert directly water into oil( heating-oil or gasoline) with a very low energy.
specie-man
Gold confiscation
Yes, sadly, Canada turned many citizens into "crimminals" at the stroke of a pen. But that is Canada. I was speaking of the USA in my earlier post. Legislatiors here would be a lot less likely to enact legislation if they thought people would vehemently protest it. Does anyone ever protest anything in Canada ? And the US government would be much *more* likely to pass legislation if they thought no one would care. It should be made loud and clear that we oppose any gold/asset confiscation.

Like I said, the NRA has been successful in their efforts so far. We could, if necessary, be successful in ours. And I don't mean that we as individuals should stand up and shout "No Confiscation !". I agree that it is better for individual gold holders to keep a low profile. But an organization, like the NRA, could do it for us. Actually, I think there is already an organization that would help in the event any asset seizure was being planned. That organization is the Industry Council for Tangible Assets (ICTA) or something like that. They have, in the past, worked to remove sales taxes on bullion and coins.

Realistically, though, all this "confiscation" talk is being blown way out of proportion. Gold wasn't seized in 1980 and it won't be now. The government is much more likely to seize other assets (oil, farmland, etc.) than gold, and even chances of that happening extremely remote.

In 1933, the govenment needed a quantity of gold as "backing" to improve the faith in the rapidly-increasing quantities of new "Federal Reserve Notes" being issued at the time. It really didn't matter if they actually had the gold. What really mattered was that people BELIEVED that they had the gold backing. So the government put on a "show" to make people believe that the paper currency was as good as gold. As far as the government was concerned, the "show" was just as important as the actual gold.

So, in 1933, the situation was that the government withdrew the prevailing money (gold) from circulation and replaced it with fiat.

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO THIS TIME, RECALL ALL THE FIAT AND REPLACE IT WITH "CREDIT" CARDS !? Ha-Ha ! Oh, wait, that IS what they are doing !

My apologies to our Canadian neighbors - no offense intended.

Remarx
@Robert: Good Point!
Your point re oil as more truly precious than gold was well-taken (by me at least)-- a welcome sign of healthy, critical thinking.

As BlackBlade mentioned, gold is still valued around the world. Like you, I can't figure out why, but I still see it as the only safe store for wealth to help protect my family on the other side of Hubbert's peak.
Paper Avalanche
@ Robert.......
You last name wouldn't happen to be Rubin would it.

How's life after the Treasury Department?

PA
R Powell
Robert, Aristotle and Paper Avalanche
The dollar's "right" of acceptance I've just finished reading some responses to Robert's thoughts on the "right" of the dollar's acceptance in the world. I thought that the following, said with tongue in cheek, might be pertainent...

"Don't worry about OPEC collecting too many dollars. The government with the Fed.'s help have been, are now, and will continue to print enough dollars to safely insure that the buying power or purchasing value of those dollars goes way down. If the value doesn't drop fast enough, we can speed up the printing by creating digital credits. We're getting oil for immediate use while paying for it with paper that will lose value over time. Neat trick, no?

I believe the nation's trade deficit is now over 500 billion dollars per year. Again, no problem, we import the world's goods and commodities and export paper dollars. Whenever some country feels they have too many warehouses full of American dollars, they simply return them for longer term treasury debt. They're still trading our exported dollars back to us for the current LOW interest paying notes. No problem. John Law was right after all.

Remember the words of Spock...

"Live large and consume!" for we'll not pay the piper until tomorrow with cheaper money." (END QUOTE)

I believe it is true that the dollar is accepted as payment throughout the world. It has been and is now. Whether this privilege is a "right" as one might think of "rights" supposedly insured by the "Bill of Rights" moves the discussion into one of ethics and perhaps law. That the buck pays the bills is fact.

Is it not also true that the dollar is easily convertible into other currencies? Can the dollar also be used to buy commodities, land, services and pretty much anything one might want? Can the dollars be exchanged for gold? Isn't the currency little more than a means of exchange, and the dollar easily exchangeable? If so, then what's the problem? I wouldn't store my wealth in dollars but as payment for work converted into paying my bills, it works fine.

If the world accepts dollars then dollars will trade. The market and Gresham's law will determine how much the dollar is "worth" and whether or not they will be honored as good currency or held as reserves. Ethics and morals have little to do with the pragmatic daily world trade which probably ought to be more equitable but which will not function without money or an acceptable means of exchange.

Basically, what Robert says about the dollar is probably correct. Whether it should be is another question. So now he's branded as an Andy Smith and anti-gold propagandist by Aristotle and Paper Avalanche! Do I hear them saying, "Agree with me or I'll call you names", again?
Grow up!
21mabry
United Europe
In some historical reading I came across a quote from Napoleon a man whose life makes for interesting reading.The emperor spoke.There shall be no peace in europe until there is one currency,one court of justice,one army,and one ruler.Truly this may be happening in our time.I guess Bonaparte was a few hundred years to early.21
Remarx
@Robert: My mistake! What Really Makes this Nation Great
Guess I hadn't read back far enough in your postings. While I have to admit there is certainly some truth to your statements about the true value of gold, I have to concur with others here that your attitude with respect to "what makes this nation great" is reprehensible.

I am still unjaded enough to believe that integrity, fair play and especially goodwill were the real pillars on which at least part of US society was based. I would hope that none of us would want to benefit from such a scheme --rightly called counterfeiting by someone else here.

Paper Avalanche
Selling more paper to fund worthless paper promises
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&u=/nyt/20031011/ts_nyt/tocoverpensionpromisesgovernmentsturntobonds≺inter=1This is the stuff paper avalanches are made of.

If I were nearing retirment and relying on a pension, I would be terrified.

Take care all.

PA

BTW, Rich - I invite Robert (Rubin? Plant?) to refute or contest that which I have ascribed to him. If one is not willing to be called names, myself included, then maybe the "animating contest of freedom" is too stressful or uncomfortable for many to engage the forum. I respect Robert for his attempt to make his argument - but I sincerely believe that he is dead a$$ wrong.
Gold Standard
The "Robert" issue.....
Given the flurry of postings of a troll in the ranks, I have taken the time to review Robert's postings and the replies.

My personal opinion is that on one view of things, Robert's well-articulated query as to the "value" of gold has, per se, reasonable merit. As a goldbug, might I add, it is a simplistic view, that opines that if gold is not "used", then it is by that virtue alone "useLESS".

An intellectual argument that does have a certain attraction.

However, the other view, and that held by the vast majority of the enthusiasts on this forum, is that gold is simply too valuable to be consumed, and hence it is stored as true wealth.

I would have expected some of the long-term posters here to have engaged in rational debate, without resort to the murky depths of name-calling and other personal attacks, which to my mind does not enhance the prestige of this forum one iota.

Cheers!
Waverider
Robert - for your eyes only...
Robert said:

"Chances are that Saddam would still be in power in Iraq if he would not have made the stupid mistake of challenging the US by announcing that he does not want to accept US Dollars as payment for his oil. As a nation, thanks to the clever policies of our government during the past 60 years, we enjoy a unique position in the world where we can print paper and indeed have the right to pay with that paper for foreign imports. Thanks to ingenious policies of the IMF and the world bank, many nations do not have any choice but must export to the US in order to earn our paper. You can object against that on moral grounds, however, from a purely legal point of view this is indeed our right in the sense that it is legal and that no other nation has this privilege. Our government has been working hard for many decades in order to achieve that goal and to create that privilege for us. You may not like that, but this is not a reason to deny the truth."

Waverider says:

Chances are that Mr. Bohn would not have been arrested if he hadn't made the stupid mistake of challenging the leadership of Nazi Germany by announcing that he was going to form an opposition party. As leaders, thanks to the clever policies of the Third Reich during the past 10 years, we enjoy a unique position where we can do whatever is required to maintain the survival of the regime, and indeed have a right to do it. Thanks to the ingenious policies of our Gestapo, the people of Germany do not have any choice but to accept our regime. You can object against that on moral grounds, however, from a purely legal point of view this is indeed our right in the sense that it is legal (because we've made it so) and no other political group in Germany has this privilege. Our government has been working hard for many decades in order to achieve that goal and to create that privilege for us. You may not like that, but this is not a reason to deny the truth.

Robert - one can change the players, but the substance of your message - the reasoning, arrogance, and unconscionable self-serving attitude prevail. Without integrity, morality and ethical responsibility, the *appearance* of privilege masks the reality of exploitation and dehumanization. Who is the one here denying the truth?
R Powell
Paper Avalanche
Your words....

"BTW, Rich - I invite Robert (Rubin? Plant?) to refute or contest that which I have ascribed to him."

Are you asking him to prove that he is not Robert Rubin? And he's supposed to prove that with words here on the forum? Richard Powell happens to be the name on my birth certificate but I can no more prove that here than anyone can prove their real identity OR disprove that they are Robert Rubin. How do you propose he does this?
If you disagree with him, fine but name calling serves no purpose. When I hear kids using foul language (every other word refering to the reproductive process) I often wonder if they know any other adjectives. Name calling reminds me of the same reaction. Sit down, gather your thoughts and engage the man in discussion. If you can't, just side with the others and scream "cartel invader, intruder alert, or perhaps, creature from the dark side!" You are stating that only those who agree with your thoughts should be accorded any civility, those who don't you call names. If I were Robert I'd be long gone by now.
Should the forum hang out a sign that says "Beware all who venture herein, only one point of view allowed. Discussion of opposing opinions has been replaced with identity slander and character assassination." Okay, soon we'll all be preaching the same company line and there will be more questions of where is so and so OR why doesn't Sir XX post anymore. Shall we rewrite the forum code of conduct to post only favorable opinions? Then if you hear an opinion you do not agree with, you'll be able to ask for it to be deleted.

Gold Standard
The "Robert" issue..... revisited

What a difference an hour or two makes... whilst I was randomly surfing and composing my previous post, there has been an absolute fury of postings!

It seems to me that Robert's reply to initial criticism led to this posting by him:-

SNIP>
"That is precisely what makes this country great. We have the right to pay for valuable resources (like oil and gold) in "worthless" paper money. Third world countries have not reached yet this high level of sophistication on which our society is build. That explains their natural distrust towards all forms of paper money. But in time, they will catch up."
ENDSNIP<

Again, my personal belief is that Robert has advanced an arguable proposition, that has been wrongly attacked. The positioning of the inverted commas totally changes the context of the statement from what could be construed by some as arrogance, to what could be no more than sarcasm:-

SNIP>
"That is precisely what makes this country "great". We have the right to pay for valuable resources (like oil and gold) in worthless paper money. Third world countries have not reached yet this high level of sophistication on which our society is build. That explains their natural distrust towards all forms of paper money. But in time, they will catch up."
ENDSNIP<

Had Robert phrased his comments with this minor change, there would be echoes of "Way to go, Bro!" around the forum.

I am prepared to give Robert the benefit of doubt, and consider his posting as sarcasm, rather than the arrogance that has been attacked at length. In context, it was clearly intended as sarcasm.

Cheers!

Great Albino Bat
21Mabry: Napoleon and a United Europe...

Napoleon was a man of genius who left his mark upon the world; although defeated at Waterloo, l'Empereur was far, far above and in advance of his enemies. In character,
ability and genius he is comparable to Charlemagne and Alexander the Great.

The Napoleonic Wars were, in fact, the true WWI (not 1914).

Britain fought Napoleon, or mostly got others to fight him, because a United Europe meant that Britain would have to assume her rightful place in the order of things; and of course, the British wouldn't have that - it meant Britain would become of scarcely more importance than the despised Ireland.

The Brits - or those who govern them - have been very clever at playing off one country against another; "Balance of Power", is what they call it.

Now, with Europe (more or less) united, that little bloody game is over - for a time anyway. The Brits are stumped.

I have at hand, a copy of International Currency Review of December 1983 (published in London). Almost twenty years!

A headline: "The U.S. Dollar. Why the Dollar Hasn't Collapsed Yet." Never mind the article, the headline is sobering. There we were, TWENTY YEARS AGO, forecasting the imminent demise of the Dollar!

Giant trade deficits, giant fiscal deficits, humongous debt, etcetera, and still Ole Man River Jes' Keeps Rollin' Along. How long, Oh Lord, How long?

About ten years later, I guess, Int. Curr. Rev. was freaking out about the European Union, and how Germany was achieving the very aims of Adolf Hitler, without firing a shot: a United Europe. I.C.R. was VERY upset. Of course they would be, a United Europe means the end of European manipulation by Britain. Dismal prospect for the Brits!

Well, folks, don't hold your breath waiting for the collapse of the dollar! And so much the better that it has not taken place yet; it has allowed us to accumulate more gold.

Get ahold of the yellow and shiny soon; we may not have another twenty years!

The GAB

Aristotle
Mr. Gold Standard
Some of the long-term posters DID try to engage in rational debate (see Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.) The outcome was that after I showed Robert the flaw in his logic (he had said Gold wasn't wealth because it couldn't save anyone on the Titanic) he dropped the issue, only to return later saying "Gold is useless." I ask you, where do you go from there????

I'm afraid Rich has completely missed the angle some of us have taken this past day. It isn't "name calling" to liken a person and their argument to that of a well-known figure (A.Smith, R.Rubin, whomever) whose situation is *KNOWN* as one that that has a vested interest in propagating anti-Gold sentiment.

Where I equated Robert with Andy Smith this morning, that's where I shifted my attention and commentary away from Robert's small plight and applied them more significantly to the situation regarding the Andy Smith's (i.e., "bullion bankers" on the IMF/dollar life-support squad) of the world.

The thing that bothers me most about Andy is the waste. He's a bright guy and funnier than hell. But he's wasting his talent and life's opportunity to pursue the greater Good by taking the soft way out as a high-paid lackey for some truly ugly and despicable bullion banking task masters. Roughly speaking, these are the guys that Robert spoke of who foster the "U.S. privilege" through boot-on-neck tactics.

Gold. Get you some. Make lil' Andy and his bosses squirm. --- Aristotle
21mabry
Napoleon
GAB, Napoleon was indeed before his time.His confederation of the rhine was the a precurrsor to german unification.His intrigues in Italy were a great force in Italian unification.Many have written most of his wars were forced upon him,this I am unsure of,the english definetly would not make peace with him.At tilist when he made peace with czar Alexanders first words to him were I hate the english as much as you.Napoleon replied than we have made peace.Napoleon by all accounts was a staunch believer in paying in gold an refused to debase the currency he feared the past problems with paper fiat in france.He was truly a man of immense intellect.Many do not realise while he fought his campaigns he was also ruling his empire.His opposition usually just had to command their army.21
Robert
I wish to apologize to everybody for some of the statements

I made on this forum during the past few days. These statements infuriated many of the fine people on this forum to a degree which I could not have imagined when composing my postings. I sincerely apologize. I can not prove that I am neither Andy Smith (never heard that name) nor Robert Rubin (the former secretary of the treasury).
But I wish to assure everybody that I am not member of any organization aiming to hurt the gold community. In fact I
am a loner who does not talk with friends or relatives about the issues discussed on this board. My postings should be viewed as attempts to clarify my own thinking about gold and related issues. I believe that writing is the best form of thinking. Thinking without writing is very often not well developed. I admit that I am often guilty of consciously choosing words in order to either exegarate or to provoke. That was definitely the case when I used the phrase "the right to use printed Dollars for payment". Again, I apologize for this.

In conclusion, let me thank you all for the responses. I read them all! I would be happy if everybody could forgive me so I can actively continue participating in this wonderful forum.
21mabry
GAB
Waterloo, Quotes from The Duke of Wellington. Message written to Blucher"Come as fast as you can.We will fight to the last hour,to the last round,even to the last man but for Gods sake come." The Dukes comment on the battle."It was a very close run thing indeed."The Rothschilds son stationed in england said the best business he ever did was supplying bullion to the english goverment to pay their army fighting Bonney in spain.21
Paper Avalanche
Rich... please calm down
To address all the you included in your last post:

RP: "Are you asking him to prove that he is not Robert Rubin?"
PA: Nope. Just thought that if Robert Rubin were to spend time on a gold forum that he would post similar posting. My reference was indirect humor.

RP: "And he's supposed to prove that with words here on the forum?"
PA: That is the only methhod by which we have to communicate on this forum.

RP: "Richard Powell happens to be the name on my birth certificate but I can no more prove that here than anyone can prove their real identity OR disprove that they are Robert Rubin. How do you propose he does this?"
PA: Again, please recognize that my prior post incorporated implied humor, albeit unrecognized by all forum members.

RP: "If you disagree with him, fine but name calling serves no purpose. When I hear kids using foul language (every other word refering to the reproductive process) I often wonder if they know any other adjectives. Name calling reminds me of the same reaction. Sit down, gather your thoughts and engage the man in discussion."
PA: Okey doke Rich, so you recognize that the dollar faction bullies other governments to buy our fiat (i.e Japan), owns and manipulates the whore press (i.e. CNBC), regularly and fraudulently manipulates the "price" of gold and silver on the COMEX (refer to GATA findings), but the fine people who would and do continue to perpetuate the above actions would not stoop so HORRIBLY low as to try and post on forums so as to dissuade those who may be looking to purchase physical gold / silver? They would never be that dastardly! And if so, they would certainly have the nobility to state their intenions at the outset so as to let those that they intend to sway to understand their end goal. To this I say, the assuming, naieve and trusting are the first to succumb in a time of war. If I wanted to make "friends" and not directly engage those who I believe have specific and injurious motives regarding gold, I have plenty of outlets available other than this forum. Freedom is what we seek. In doing so, we must endure each other's point of view, commentary and conclusions. I believe that you are too consumed with trying to be nice and unoffensive to recognize that there exist people who would leverage your trust to command a presence on this forum that is detrimental to those who seek to understand the benefit of physical gold ownership.

RP: "If you can't, just side with the others and scream "cartel invader, intruder alert, or perhaps, creature from the dark side!" You are stating that only those who agree with your thoughts should be accorded any civility, those who don't you call names. If I were Robert I'd be long gone by now."
PA: Hardly. I have been routinely castrated on this forum as a result of my own ignorance, arrogance and porr judgment. If I engange a person on this forum, said person has nothing to prohibit him / her self from taering me apart using facts, better judgment or other information. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Bear in mind that we are discussing that which Kings and governments have been more than willing to send many a citizen into certain death (war) in order to improve said King's / government's economic position. This is heavy stuff and you need to be ready to fist fight sometimes instead of joust.

RP: "Should the forum hang out a sign that says "Beware all who venture herein, only one point of view allowed. Discussion of opposing opinions has been replaced with identity slander and character assassination."
PA: Nope. If you believe something, but only so much so that you abandon said belief upon being chastised on an internet forum, then it is time for a gut check. Get over it. Nobody walks away from this forum with a broken arm or bloody nose. I pray that people have not become so sheepish that they are no longer able to vehemently fight for what they believe within the arena of ideas.

RP: "Okay, soon we'll all be preaching the same company line and there will be more questions of where is so and so OR why doesn't Sir XX post anymore. Shall we rewrite the forum code of conduct to post only favorable opinions? Then if you hear an opinion you do not agree with, you'll be able to ask for it to be deleted."
PA: See above.

PA
heavy mettle
THE SPOILS OF WAR: The Secret Story of WWII Japanese & Nazi Gold
http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_spoils_of_war.htm
Snippet:

By David Guyatt
copyright 2002 for

The use of suspect gold to launder drug profits is well established. One example of such laundering activities concerns a rogue airline that had the reputation of flying anything to anywhere. Over a two-year period between 1989-91, the airline made four flights carrying gold bullion weighing 160 tonnes with a market value of two billion dollars. Each of the four flights carried boxes with twelve bars of gold to a box that overall weighed 41 tonnes per flight. All the boxes were palletised for easy loading and accompanied by a guard. The flights originated from Medellin, Columbia, and were airlifted to London and apparently cleared both ends without customs inspection. [1]

The amount of gold shipped was more than the gold reserves of most central banks. The question then arises: where did this gold originate? The likelihood is that it was part of the vast amounts of gold plundered in WWII by the Axis powers.

The story about what really happened to the loot plundered by the Nazis and Japanese during WWII remains one of the best-kept secrets of the last fifty years. Few outside of the charmed circle of initiated insiders possess any knowledge whatsoever of the true dimensions of what can be described as the biggest cover-up of all time.

But it is not just public awareness of what exactly "happened" to this plunder in the post war years that is the cause of supreme unease amongst the powers that be. It is the sheer magnitude of treasure forcibly confiscated by the Axis powers that causes trepidation. Were the actual dollar numbers involved to be revealed, it would lay bare an even more sensitive secret -- one that has endured for a hundred or more years.

A decades long propaganda campaign had served to focus public attention on the gold stolen from governments -- known as monetary gold -- as a means of eclipsing from public view far larger amounts of privately held gold that was also stolen.

The heavy cloak of disinformation and double-talk had still another layer. By putting the spotlight on Nazi plunder from the very beginning, public attention was diverted away from the industrial scale looting undertaken by Japan's special plunder teams known as the "Golden Lily." And it is here that the real story dwells.
Dollar Bill
*>*............+
Aristotle.
Greetings and Salutations.
I cant find error in Gold Standards points. Except perhaps where he thinks the choice is either arrogance or sarcasm.
Roberts point is out of the box, but neither of those ^two.

You said;
"...Good by taking the soft way out as a high-paid lackey for some truly ugly and despicable bullion banking task masters. Roughly speaking, these are the guys that Robert spoke of who foster the "U.S. privilege" through boot-on-neck tactics."
Roughly speaking indeed !

Is it all that long ago that china and russia gave up on thier approach to finance and decided to surrender to the west? They hated to turn on THAT dime. Non the less, they had no choice. Now they are playing the game the flawed humans of the "west" constructed.

I am sure it was no picnic in the seventies, in the midst of a -communist financial religion- nuclear threat very real cold war situation, to convince the -ahem- oil sandmen
to agree with the US and the Nato countries on low price gold. Escorting russia and china down the long road to
great change and new financial starts was also a very complex and difficult task.
It could easily have gone very wrong.

I know the media is pounding us relentlessly with anti US
propaganda. And the financial system IS flawed, yet we have to watch it or we lose the history of how we got here.

It was not a dark and sinister road that the US chose to walk. It is a world with dark and sinister elements that
infect all and the track record of the US is not....well,
there is no merit in painting it black.

Ten Bears
Logic & Fallacies
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.htmlThe above referenced site provides an extensive list of logical fallacies, including "argumentum ad hominem". Quite an interesting read. After reading some recent posts on this excellent forum, I found it informative to review the above referenced site.
Kilo
Just thinking out loud......
..... of how our own government, in the form of the U.S. Mint, spends fiat to purchase gold, to coin it into a highly marketable coin form, only to re-sell it again for more fiat.

What a concept !

Looks like maybe they should give up while they are ahead..... like somewhere after step one?
heavy mettle
SPOILS OF WAR: Black Gold
After re-reading the article, it seems a bit far fetched that there is ten times as much gold as officially reported and that 90% of the world's gold is either black gold or privately held gold. I can see where the greed of some would want to gain access to the world's wealth. Is it any wonder central banks sell their gold at such low prices.

Would anyone else have an estimated figure or is it just a matter of guess work?
Belgian
Gold Wealth....
There is NOT "one" Robert...but an unaccountable amount of people (groups of people) that are ready to state (when provoked) the same " Gold is NOT Wealth" axioma/perception. Yes, "Gold is Wealth", has and still is, percepted as a provocation.

The West has succeeded in putting the fundamentals upside down. Third world regions should be regarded as being on the road to development and it is (was) conveniently OK that these regions still continue to associate GOLD with WEALTH !

But...hey, look what is happening now...

1,3 Billion Chinese seem to be going for Gold...and...a brand new Central Bank (ECB) with a brand new currency (euro) seems to have a rather *un-conventional* idea, about Gold (reserves) ...and some of the 1,2 Billion muslims seem to be interested in the general idea of "monetary union" and associate currency (dinar) with Gold.

It seems as if the fabricated "elitist" notion of Gold being Wealth is evolving again, against the established Gold domination (containment) that has been so succesfully installed in the past 20 years (1980 > 1999)!!!

Said it before and want to repeat it Again : We have no idea, as to what extend, we are massively overwhelmed with the organized crime of global "perception" fabrication !
Global infantilization...the absolute terror of powerfull utterly nonsense and straigth lying ! Even the half-truths are gone. One only starts lying, full time about everything, when desperation becomes very visible.

The only Big mistake I might make in this conclusion is that I have matured a bit (Thanks to CPM-intermediair) and do see/realise those lies, now !? In other words...the lying/deceiving has always existed.

Yes, I have been a Goldwealth infidel for some time ! Me too have been (happily) paralysed by the paper-reproducing-magic. But something IS changing ! The Paper-richness isn't as impressive as it used to be. Gold Wealth isn't looking as "d�mod�" - "obsolete", anymore.

The ruling (collaborating) "bullion bank-spider web" has noticed this dramatic, juvenile start in "NEW" Gold perception ! The Gold-containment, might get out of their hands ! Soon, there will be a 180� turn in, political correct, Gold Wealth perception. The WAG was evidence that those Gold perception rulers went the bridge too far. They did not want running the risk of "killing" the fundamental/basic notion of Gold Wealth.

Because...there comes a time that the ignorant, complacent, general public, starts to take notice (at last) of the degree of nonsense and blatant lies, they have been " conveniently " believing for some happy period. Simply because, things are "working" anymore. I'm talking about un-employment and how to resolve this structural, everlasting, problem, for instance.

More and renewed, dramatically needed, growth-obsession with more and renewed, relentless confetti-expansion that keeps hollowing the ultimate basis for the reached level of prosperity based on delusive NON-WEALTH ! In order to have obtained this degree of virtual prosperity...a lot of stupid arrogance was (is) necessary !

A Free Gold Market should take the negative wealth-connotation that goes with Gold, away. *Free*, means "for all" in a Western context...Free to build one's own wealth-security on a reliable gold-basis. A collectivity based on responsible-responsibilized individuals ! Not paper-maniacs, building towers of Babylon, swapping more overvalued paper against other overvalued paper and making non-payments. (Yesterday's GE swap for Ammersham = most recent example)

In our western hemisphere (US-Euroland) we are facing the emergency of a rather *impossible* message : Time out folks, w're gone have to work much harder for much less !!! Ohlala, mama mia ! This globalized planet, our village, is facing some hard transitional changes. Ths "debt-driven", "political-economy" - system, isn't working anymore. We went too far away from the ancient "Wealth" base.

And it is exactly because we went that far away from it that the return to the real and free wealth-base is percepted as such a childish, outdated idea (principle).
OK, fair enough, but in the mean time we all start to notice that we are getting stuck, all together now.

The general teneur of this forum is to advocate a return to Gold's fundamentals. A/FOA have been outlining a workable Gold-Trail. Allow me to emphasize, AGAIN, that NOT one single soul out there is saying ONE single word on the presented model/idea of a FREE GOLD MARKET !!!
It isn't even critisized or ridiculed !!! I do like this deafhening silence, immensely. I do enjoy the absolute silence on Gold's Fundamentals ! There's even not a single soul who dares to mention(refer to) the Bretton Woods history. Absolute silence on the "floating" aspect of currencies. I do remember the eighties where these subjects were daily talked about.

This, "all is well", attitude is the Goebbelianic propaganda of a globalized perceptions-machine. Nice "Reich" building, indeed...and also with a subtle Gold-looting as well.

A NEW and FREE Gold market in the background of a further globalizing economy is close to an almost perfect world.
Prosperity can only flourish on *stability* ! A Free choice to Gold-Wealth IS the most "stabilizing" concept one can dream off. Gold is and should be (become) the ultimate "stabilizer" !!! The longer we stay further away from Gold, the more we de-stabilize.

But the installation of a Free Gold market has ONE terrible dramatic consequence : A gigantic power shift *AWAY* from the dollar !!! And it is "THIS" that explains everything !!!





ge
Rothbard on the monetary history of 20th century
http://www.mises.org/money/4s0.aspBelgian msg#: 110254 SAYS," There's even not a single soul who dares to mention(refer to) the Bretton Woods history. Absolute silence on the "floating" aspect of currencies. I do remember the eighties where these subjects were daily talked about."
---Accepting the invitation :) ----
---Quoting Rothbard----

"To understand the current monetary chaos, it is necessary to trace briefly the international monetary developments of the twentieth century, and to see how each set of unsound inflationist interventions has collapsed of its own inherent problems, only to set the stage for another round of interventions. The twentieth century history of the world monetary order can be divided into nine phases. Let us examine each in turn."
ge
Rothbard on The Classical Gold Standard, 1815-1914
http://www.mises.org/money/4s1.asp"We can look back upon the "classical" gold standard, the Western world of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, as the literal and metaphorical Golden Age. With the exception of the troublesome problem of silver, the world was on a gold standard, which meant that each national currency (the dollar, pound, franc, etc.) was merely a name for a certain definite weight of gold. The "dollar," for example, was defined as 1/20 of a gold ounce, the pound sterling as slightly less than 1/4 of a gold ounce, and so on. This meant that the "exchange rates" between the various national currencies were fixed, not because they were arbitrarily controlled by government, but in the same way that one pound of weight is defined as being equal to sixteen ounces.

The international gold standard meant that the benefits of having one money medium were extended throughout the world. One of the reasons for the growth and prosperity of the United States has been the fact that we have enjoyed one money throughout the large area of the country. We have had a gold or at least a single dollar standard with the entire country, and did not have to suffer the chaos of each city and county issuing its own money which would then fluctuate with respect to the moneys of all the other cities and counties. The nineteenth century saw the benefits of one money throughout the civilized world. One money facilitated freedom of trade, investment, and travel throughout that trading and monetary area, with the consequent growth of specialization and the international division of labor.

It must be emphasized that gold was not selected arbitrarily by governments to be the monetary standard. Gold had developed for many centuries on the free market as the best money; as the commodity providing the most stable and desirable monetary medium. Above all, the supply and provision of gold was subject only to market forces, and not to the arbitrary printing press of the government.

The international gold standard provided an automatic market mechanism for checking the inflationary potential of government. It also provide an automatic mechanism for keeping the balance of payments of each country in equilibrium. As the philosopher and economist David Hume pointed out in the mid-eighteenth century, if one nation, say France, inflates its supply of paper francs, its prices rise; the increasing incomes in paper francs stimulates imports from abroad, which are also spurred by the fact that prices of imports are now relatively cheaper than prices at home. At the same time, the higher prices at home discourage exports abroad; the result is a deficit in the balance of payments, which must be paid for by foreign countries cashing in francs for gold. The gold outflow means that France must eventually contract its inflated paper francs in order to prevent a loss of all of its gold. If the inflation has taken the form of bank deposits, then the French banks have to contract their loans and deposits in order to avoid bankruptcy as foreigners call upon the French banks to redeem their deposits in gold. The contraction lowers prices at home, and generates an export surplus, thereby reversing the gold outflow, until the price levels are equalized in France and in other countries as well.

It is true that the interventions of governments previous to the nineteenth century weakened the speed of this market mechanism, and allowed for a business cycle of inflation and recession within this gold standard framework. These interventions were particularly: the governments' monopolizing of the mint, legal tender laws, the creation of paper money, and the development of inflationary banking propelled by each of the governments. But while these interventions slowed the adjustments of the market, these adjustments were still in ultimate control of the situation. So while the classical gold standard of the nineteenth century was not perfect, and allowed for relatively minor booms and busts, it still provided us with by far the best monetary order the world has ever known, an order which worked, which kept business cycles from getting out of hand, and which enabled the development of free international trade, exchange, and investment."
ge
Rothbard on World War I and After
http://www.mises.org/money/4s2.aspIf the classical gold standard worked so well, why did it break down? It broke down because governments were entrusted with the task of keeping their monetary promises, of seeing to it that pounds, dollars, francs, etc., were always redeemable in gold as they and their controlled banking system had pledged. It was not gold that failed; it was the folly of trusting government to keep its promises. To wage the catastrophic war of World War I, each government had to inflate its own supply of paper and bank currency. So severe was this inflation that it was impossible for the warring governments to keep their pledges, and so they went "off the gold standard," i.e., declared their own bankruptcy, shortly after entering the war. All except the United States, which entered the war late, and did not inflate the supply of dollars enough to endanger redeemability. But, apart from the U.S., the world suffered what some economists now hail as the Nirvana of freely-fluctuating exchange rates (now called "dirty floats") competitive devaluations, warring currency blocks, exchange controls, tariffs and quotas, and the breakdown of international trade and investment. The inflated pounds, francs, marks, etc., depreciated in relation to gold and the dollar; monetary chaos abounded throughout the world.

In those days there were, happily, very few economists to hail this situation as the monetary ideal. It was generally recognized that Phase II was the threshold to international disaster, and politicians and economists looked around for ways to restore the stability and freedom of the classical gold standard.
ge
Rothbard on The Gold Exchange Standard (Britain and the U.S.) 1926-1931
http://www.mises.org/money/4s3.asp"How to return to the Golden Age? The sensible thing to do would have been to recognize the facts of reality, the fact of the depreciated pound, franc, mark, etc., and to return to the gold standard at a redefined rate: a rate that would recognize the existing supply of money and price levels. The British pound, for example, had been traditionally defined at a weight which made it equal to $4.86. But by the end of World War I, the inflation in Britain had brought the pound down to approximately $3.50 on the free foreign exchange market. Other currencies were similarly depreciated. The sensible policy would have been for Britain to return to gold at approximately $3.50, and for the other inflated countries to do the same. Phase I could have been smoothly and rapidly restored. Instead, the British made the fateful decision to return to gold at the old par of $4.86. [2] It did so for reasons of British national "prestige," and in a vain attempt to re-establish London as the "hard money" financial center of the world. To succeed at this piece of heroic folly, Britain would have had to deflate severely its money supply and its price levels, for at a $4.86 pound British export prices were far too high to be competitive in the world markets. But deflation was now politically out of the question, for the growth of trade unions, buttressed by a nationwide system of unemployment insurance, had made wage rates rigid downward; in order to deflate, the British government would have had to reverse the growth of its welfare state. In fact, the British wished to continue to inflate money and prices. As a result of combining inflation with a return to an overvalued par, British exports were depressed all during the 1920s and unemployment was severe all during the period when most of the world was experiencing an economic boom.

How could the British try to have their cake and eat it at the same time? By establishing a new international monetary order which would induce or coerce other governments into inflating or into going back to gold at overvalued pars for their own currencies, thus crippling their own exports and subsidizing imports from Britain. This is precisely what Britain did, as it led the way, at the Genoa Conference of 1922, into creating a new international monetary order, the gold-exchange standard.

The gold-exchange standard worked as follows: The United States remained on the classical gold standard, redeeming dollars in gold. Britain and the other countries of the West, however, returned to a pseudo-gold standard, Britain in 1926 and the other countries around the same time. British pounds and other currencies were not payable in gold coins, but only in large-sized bars, suitable only for international transactions. This prevented the ordinary citizens of Britain and other European countries from using gold in their daily life, and thus permitted a wider degree of paper and bank inflation. But furthermore, Britain redeemed pounds not merely in gold, but also in dollars; while the other countries redeemed their currencies not in gold, but in pounds. And most of these countries were induced by Britain to return to gold at overvalued parities. the result was a pyramiding of U.S. on gold, of British pounds on dollars, and of other European currencies on pounds�the "gold-exchange standard," with the dollar and the pound as the two "key currencies."

Now when Britain inflated, and experienced a deficit in its balance of payments, the gold standard mechanism did not work to quickly restrict British inflation. For instead of other countries redeeming their pounds for gold, they kept the pounds and inflated on top of them. Hence Britain and Europe were permitted to inflate unchecked, and British deficits could pile up unrestrained by the market discipline of the gold standard. As for the United States, Britain was able to induce the U.S. to inflate dollars so as not to lose many dollar reserves or gold to the United States.

The point of the gold-exchange standard is that it cannot last; the piper must eventually be paid, but only in a disastrous reaction to the lengthy inflationary boom. As sterling balances piled up in France, the U.S., and elsewhere, the slightest loss of confidence in the increasingly shaky and jerry-built inflationary structure was bound to lead to general collapse. This is precisely what happened in 1931; the failure of inflated banks throughout Europe, and the attempt of "hard money" France to cash in its sterling balances for gold, led Britain to go off the gold standard completely. Britain was soon followed by the other countries of Europe."

---having used too much bandwidth, I stop, the rest can be found by following the link---
Belgian
Bagdad Blast....
How is this related to Gold...? Increasing geo-political
"in-stability" drains a lot of money (efforts) into unproductive/uneconomic, activity. More reason for having to expand the debt-confetti-bergs to unbearable proportions vis � vis the real economic prestations.
Forget about the re-building of Iraq, wich never was the intention anyway. The longer this impossible situation, without any exit possibility, drags on...the more the real purposes (oil control) for the occupation will become publicly clearer and more difficult to maintain !

This is surely affecting the oil-pricing-policies, dragging another currency (euro) more and more into the equation.
The recent euro and Russian energy trial balloons must be seen as the openening of a second front !

Belgian
@ge
I do enjoy your postings, Sir ! All of them.
I was refering to the financial "media", most of the self proclaimed or publicly bombarded Gold-authorities, official and unofficial. I excluded, of course, the many "thinkers" who "unfortunately" are reaching such a low number of listeners, followers, candidate gold-students, in our western hemisphere.

Even the efforts of the honorable Senator, Ron Paul, isn't resulting in some more Gold-consciousness outside the minuscule goldbug society.

Also note the following two aspects :
1/ In Euroland, there is NO gold-talk !!!
2/ The gold-talk coming from the Anglo American angle is almost 100% dollar oriented and excluding oil and the euro into the equation.

The combination of 1/ and 2/ might say something more coherent.
Thanks for your valued contributions, ge.
silvercollector
Please set me straight
The new gold exchange in China is a physical market, yes?

The new exchange in India is paper (futures), yes?

Is the new exchange (India) a good thing?

Are there more exchanges upcoming? Physical, paper, otherwise? Good, bad, indifferent?

Thanks in advance.
Cavan Man
The best propaganda in the world.......
LEDYARD KING GANNETT NEWS SERVICE The Olympian Online

IRAQ: Latest developments


Your thoughts about war with Iraq.



WASHINGTON -- Letters from hometown soldiers describing their successes rebuilding Iraq have been appearing in newspapers across the country as U.S. public opinion on the mission sours.
And all the letters are the same.

A Gannett News Service search found identical letters from different soldiers with the 2nd Battalion of the 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, also known as "The Rock," in 11 newspapers, including Snohomish, Wash.

The Olympian received two identical letters signed by different hometown soldiers: Spc. Joshua Ackler and Spc. Alex Marois, who is now a sergeant. The paper declined to run either because of a policy not to publish form letters.

The five-paragraph letter talks about the soldiers' efforts to re-establish police and fire departments, and build water and sewer plants in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk, where the unit is based.

"The quality of life and security for the citizens has been largely restored, and we are a large part of why that has happened," the letter reads.

It describes people waving at passing troops and children running up to shake their hands and say thank you.

It's not clear who wrote the letter or organized sending it to soldiers' hometown papers.

Six soldiers reached by GNS directly or through their families said they agreed with the letter's thrust. But none of the soldiers said he wrote it, and one said he didn't even sign it.

Cor Tauri
various posts over the past several days
I have read with great interest the messages posted over the past few days. I wasn't going to post anything but Remarx and perhaps others seem to be on the brink of leaving. That would be unfortunate.

Much of the controversy seems to revolve around Robert. There is suspicion that he is a "plant". I would humbly suggest that such suspicions are beneath the fine members of this forum. Really, would a "plant" bother with the "true believers"? Those who reach this forum are almost certainly already convinced regarding Gold and Silver. A plant would be more effective at places like Silicon Investor or the various other low grade "investment" discussion forums, not a gold forum, not this one. As to those of you who are outraged at Robert's stark analysis of dollar hedgemony, who here has painted such a clear picture of the reality of the current monetary system. Oh, if Robert is a plant, I wish I had sent him. Such hubris he portrays, such an ambitions scheme so blind to the karma, the consequences it invokes. Who now can fail to understand what motivates the forces at work that Another revealed to us. Who now can fail to understand the power of the "political will" which Friend of Another explained would drive this unfolding gold market to it's destiny.
I can only imagine that Robert most eloquently stated the "rights" of the $ system to inspire a righteous rage among the considerate and rational thinkers of this forum. How could anyone who believes in the validity, the sustainability of such a system disclose it as so nakedly evil? If by chance Robert truly believes such a system is fitting, then perhaps he shocked himself into awakening with his statements. If by chance he remains even yet asleep to what is and will unfold, then perhaps at least he will have a better understanding of the system as it evolves into something far less favorable to the $ block.
I was reminded of the ultimate evolution of this new gold market by posts from Dollar Bill and Belgian. Some one wrote of what they would do if gold was $30,000 and a loaf of bread was $2. In this they have forseen the shape of things to come. They mentioned overvalued and exploding Ponzi scheme.
Belgian, you seem most knowledgeable about Europe and the Euro system. In time, when there is a great federation of European States. With the combined military might of a resurgant Germany and France. With the nuclear arsenal of Russia, which has been kept modern and advanced despite the problems in Russia. When this great power, a unified Europe, desires to spend money for their social programs, health care for all, old age pensions for all and so forth. Will they not run into overspending? Yet this is not permitted by their Maastricht Treaty? Is this not the time that the importance of marking to market their gold reserves will be seen by all with eyes and sense? In order to avoid overspending will they not have to purchase some gold to increase their reserves? This would cause the price of gold in Euro, the currency they use to purchase it, to increase, thus increasing the value of their gold reserves and eliminating the gap between reserves and money supply? We have examined how the US$ is a freely printed currency with which the US buys all the productive effort of the world for free. Will not a Euro currency become the very same thing except that in order to avoid printing beyond their reserves, they will drive up the price of their gold reserves to compensate for the excesses of their spending?
Free gold indeed! They will free it and whip it up in price to pay for their socilism. $30,000 an ounce indeed! When North Africa joins the European Federation, how high will the ECB drive gold to pay for bringing North Africa up to par in infrastructure? Europe will print the premium fiat and back it with the gold of the world which they will buy with their fiat for ANY price, the higher the better. And oil, the Arabs were ambivalent toward Europe I think, until our bombs drove them into the arms of the Euro. Backed by oil, by gold, by nuclear power, forged and guided by the cunning wisdom hammered out between German and French minds. Minds full of the history and workings of money. What have you wrought? Well, perhaps I am a bit overwrought.
How high can gold go before it is fairly considered overvalued? When I can buy all the fields in Kansas with a Maple Leaf, is it time to diversify?
Robert has shown us the maddness of the current system, but I suggest another maddness will in time come to replace it. The dollar will not die, it will live on in an "Optimum Currency Area" probably consisting of North and South America plus Japan. Perhaps again in our nation people will demand free silver. But this time it will be the bankers not the farmers. In Asia the stirrings of an "Optimum Currency Area" are beginning. Japan however, seems forever tied to it's conquerors. I think it was our host who bet FOA that the 51st state would enter the Union with a Queen. Perhaps it will be an emporor not a queen.

P.S. Dollar Bill, Jesus Christ, the Buddha and vast numbers of saints and other sorts have found the way or been the way to live life without suffering. The buddhists have no cast system. What you wrote about truth, ultimate truth and nothingness... well... I am not wise enough to explain why it is so ironic that you would write something like that. The list of religions your son was taught in public school did not seem to include the state religion of the US, which apparently is the worship of Mammon. Best to teach him at home. The little book is sweet in the mouth, but bitter in the belly. If we are called to follow the Lamb that was slain, we should do so empty handed, with humility. Nor should we expect any fate greater or lesser than He who was slain. Though the bitterness of our fate would be great, if one has faith enough one can follow without suffering and only joy. But there are other ways as well, and to judge them is not left to us. If you can do all these things, then gold is truly useless to you.
Ten Bears
A harsh view from down under
http://www.ideal.net.au/~robertsj/economic-lunacy.htmlsnip> "The simple and incontrovertible truth is that the Australian Dollar is artificially maintained at a low level, in order to enable its primary materials to be purchased at a ridiculously low international price. This suits those Australian companies (owned, as many of them undoubtedly are, by international capitalist organizations) which make quick and easy profits from the massive and uncontrolled exploitation of Australia's primary resources. The policy of successive Australian Governments has been to sell off the country's inherent mineral wealth as quickly as possible, without regard to the future needs of posterity. The motive is present expediency and greed."
cockerel1
General comments.
In re-iterating the words of Oscar Wilde.

"A cynic is a person who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Our lives are enriched by the varieties of peoples that we have the privelige to encounter in our lifetimes. Also, to try and portray hilarity on this forum, you need to be definitive in your prose, otherwise it may be construed as something else.



Also, regarding Gold and its importance. IMO, wealth is in the "Eye, and the belief, of the Beholder". As gold is the oldest known physically acceptable worldwide asset, it has to play a prominent part. Yes, there are other assets, but they need to stand the test of time. Oil, in the grand scheme of things, is a "new commodity" that will eventually be depleted.

Suggest if Oil is the prominent asset in the eyes of some, they are being selfish as to just who and what society in general, and this generation in particular, is all about.



Robert
Belgian: paper assets, gold and wealth

Let me start off by emphasizing that in posting this message I do not intend to offend anybody (if I do, I apologize in advance).

Yes, GOLD IS WEALTH. I have no problem in admitting the truth of that statement. However, as long as the term "wealth" is not precisely defined, that statement does not mean much. For instance, if we define wealth to mean plenty of money, gold, silver and diamonds, then obviously, GOLD IS WEALTH and any discussion on this subject is a waste of time (and space on this fine forum).
Personally, I feel uneasy with that definition of wealth. Let me try to explain why I feel that way by looking at paper assets (stocks, bonds, options etc) first.

Belgian, you state that you are a convert from a former paper asset "addict". You switched to gold because you sense that the paper world is crumbling. Yes, you are absolutely right. Without question, the paper world is crumbling indeed. However, THE PAPER WORLD IS NOT CRUMBLING BECAUSE IT IS MADE OF PAPER. And it is not crumbling because of the many crooks running the paper world. To understand that statement, we need to recall what paper assets are. Contrary to gold, paper assets have no intrinsic value. Paper assets are valuable because they represent LEGAL CLAIMS ON PRESENT AND FUTURE PRODUCTION OF REAL GOODS. The paper world is crumbling in my opinion because the underlying production of real goods is crumbling. Consider the economically most advanced nation on earth. Since the late 1970's industrial production in the US is declining at a slow but steady rate. There are many reasons for this phenomenon. In my opinion, the most important reason is that the US is running out of natural resources on which industrial civilization is based. As explained in the many postings of Black Blade, the situation is especially bleak in energy (oil, gas and eletricity). For instance, re natural gas, the US is soon going to face the alternative either to heat private homes (and to relocate industry abroad) or to let people freeze in the winter in order to supply the industry with NG and electricity. To make the story short, paper assets must indeed collapse if the underlying production of real goods can not be maintained.

No other than our chairmen Alan Greenspan has stated publicly that he is not worried about the decline of industrial production as long as wealth is generated by the financial service industry in form of rising stock and bond markets as well as rising home values. In my opinion, we will all pay dearly for this tragic fallacy. Since the first energy crisis in the 1970's, the American elite in politics and economics decided to "solve" that problem by letting industrial production relocate to second and third world countries. Cheap labor in these countries would compensate for the rising cost of energy and other resources. The US would transform in time to a pure service type economy emphasizing finance and insurance. Since the products of a service type economy are only legal claims, this explains the phenomenal growth of the legal profession in the US (90% of all lawyers in the world practice in the US). In order to enforce legal contracts, you need plenty of police and prisons. Indeed, the US is keeping almost 1% of its population in prison for breaking various "laws" and that percentage is rising. To enforce legal contracts abroad, you need a strong military. Indeed the US is spending more on defense than the rest of the world combined. The loss of personal freedom in this country is inevitable too once you decide to abandon production of real goods and go for "services" only.

What does this all have to do with gold? I am afraid that trumpeting "gold is wealth" and ignoring the true causes for the present economic crisis, we continue only to subscribe to the same fallacy of which Alan Greenspan is the most prominent victim. The fallacy is that if you are in possession of tangible monetary wealth, you can ignore what is happening in the real world. The fallacy consists in the belief that if you have gold, you will always be able to buy quality food, cheap energy, quality medical services, quality public education and live in a safe crime free neighbourhood - all basic ingredients of what I consider real wealth. Enough said.
Cor Tauri
breakin the law
Randy, If you delete this, I understand. It is appropriate for you do delete this. If you pull my code, well that seems harsh, but I understand that as well. I am clearly violating the posting guidelines, almost willfully. I can try to metaphore morph all this into some gold anlogy, but ...
yea, yea a metaphore, thats the ticket...
Ok,
Gold is. It exists.
It appears to be eternal. All the gold mined, or nearly all is still in posession of humanity.
So, what more can we say about it? If it had no measureable characteristics, we could not say anything more. Another and FOA, the great prophets of Gold have revealed much to us. Yet in the final analysis all that they have said is simply the words of fallible mortal men. They could be lying, wrong, insane, or we could have misunderstood them. And it would do no good for them to appeal to anysort of deeper mystical realationship with gold. For if they claimed special insight or revelation in to the movings of gold on the LBMA or Comex, it would not enhance their authority one wit, for they might be wrong about that as well. In they same way, they can not claim any special perrogative regarding gold due their identity, background or education. It is of no use for Another to say "Behold, I am Another, get thee down off thine camel and collect up the stones you find in this place this night" Sure, it might add a bit of credibility if we find in the morning that the stones we filled our pockets with were sapphires, but it should not, for it could still be the voice of a madman who just got lucky. Or a very rich madman who liked to trick passing strangers into gathering the sapphires he had strewn about the dessart. Not likely but could be.
So, we can not accept anything Another and FOA stated on blind faith alone. To do this is worse than to accept the advise of the "experts" who at least publish their names. Nor can we accept the statistics from the BLS regarding unemployment, for they are truly useless. Unless we do the fieldwork and compile the stats ourselves, we must assume the very very faint possibility that these statistics do not accuratly portray reality (on the whole they tend to give a nice example of the inherent emptiness of truth).
So we are left with two great prophets of Gold, whose apokolypsis we can not accept on words alone. How then can we gain profits from our prophets? We can accept only that part of their message that our own sense, reason, and intuition can grasp after carefull contemplation. To understand the whole is certainly a great goal. But to understand the essential message is the great task. Now, some have suggested that Another and his disciple FOA wrote their messages in a form that can be understood on three levels. The level of the small investor, the level of the great investor, and the level of the serious a$$ bigshot who makes national monetary policy. Some have suggested that the message was one of kindness to the small, instruction to the great, and dire warning to the poilicy maker.
The critical thing in all of this however is to act according to ones own understanding. Do not act out of consideration to the scribes and pharasiees on CNBC. Neither should you believe according to the teachings of the high priests of the advisory newsletters. Think not of the common sense or conventional wisdom, for it teaches that gold is dead. But then so is Nietzsche err ahh Keynes yea John Maynerd Keynes, so don't listen to him either. Trust not the interpetations of Gurus, even if they name themselves after greek philosophers, (sorry, I just had too). Trust according to your own understanding of the message. And that message and its elaboration into our scripture is found in the archives. Act on as much as you understand, but no more than that. For our prophets were here, but not for very long, and they have since departed from us. Read and understand, lest your profits depart from yea as well.
Druid
INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON OIL DEPLETION
http://www.isv.uu.se/iwood2002/Druid: For some interesting articles and abstracts reference the above subject, click on the link and scroll down. My own take on the matter is that gold has been recognized as wealth much longer then oil (gold mining has been around much longer then oil drilling). Oil is a means to end (albeit a valuable and efficient means given all the conversion factors attributable to it). If I am not mistaken, fiat currency has been recognized longer then oil as a medium of exchange and one could argue that fiat currency is more valuable within a set certain time frame(history reflects that the value of all fiat currencies approach there marginal cost of production over a given time frame, zero). In my book, ignorance of what constitutes and differentiates the concepts of value and wealth previously mentioned holds the greatest value of all, but for whom?
cockerel1
Wealth, Money etc.
I do not remember where I obtained the following. If it was from this forum, I apologize in advance for duplication. If it is new to this board, I hope some find it interesting.




52 Economic Truths

by Merrill Jenkins, 1919-1979, Monetary Realist

1. Retaining the God-given right to distribute one's own wealth is the only guarantee of freedom from tyranny.
2. Money accepted as a medium of exchange subjects people and their government to the influence of its creator.
3. Money is: credit - imaginary demand - inflation - seigniorage.
4. More cannot be returned to an only source than is taken from it.
5. A contract cannot protect anyone who lacks the wealth with which to force its fulfillment.
6. Supply and demand are wealth and cannot be imbalanced.
7. During an inflationary effect "prices" and employment rise together.
8. During a deflationary effect "prices" and employment fall together.
9. During any exchange, whatever is accepted as a medium of exchange in lieu of wealth is imaginary demand (money, credit, inflation).
10. Wealth is material - money is psychological.
11. Money can be created or destroyed in the human mind.
12. Inflation cannot be controlled.
13. Money created in the human mind has to be accepted by all others to function. Once money is generally accepted, all people will create it in volume to satisfy their desires, and control is impossible.
14. Money accepted in exchange for wealth is subconscious fraud.
15. Rent is material - interest is psychological.
16. Rent is a wealth charge for the use of borrowed wealth.
17. Interest payment would require that more be returned to an only source than was obtained from it.
18. Interest is money charged for the use of borrowed money.
19. Wherever money is accepted as a medium of exchange, wealth and freedom are forfeited.
20. Money is accepted in exchange for wealth only until the psychological nature of money is exposed, or until wealth expropriation consumes most of production and the public begins to starve.
21. Where freedom reigns, those who do not produce food directly have to produce wealth or perform service to exchange for it.
22. Wealth exchanges freely on historic worth. Money exchanges due to legal tender laws and the public's ignorance of its true nature.
23. Money is a force of evil.
24. Attempts to control and circumvent free market natural laws causes hidden free market transactions.
25. Wealth is supply or demand by use or viewpoint.
26. As the exchanges of money (imaginary demand) for wealth increase, the parity of money falls.
27. Inflation is possible without the inflationary effect only at the expense of the standard of living, until wealth expropriation consumes most of production and the public begins to starve.
28. Inflation held as savings does not cause the inflationary effect.
29. Inflation feeds on itself and accumulates at an ever increasing rate.
30. Money may exchange for wealth but it can never be wealth.
31. All money is imaginary and its volume can not be measured.
32. Wealth only as a media makes inflation impossible.
33. Inflation ends with deflation.
34. Money is valueless unless accepted in exchange for something.
35. Wealth has worth in use, consumption, or as media. Money depends on imagination and is usable only as a medium of exchange.
36. Deflation can be honorable only by redemption.
37. The deflationary effect is possible without a deflationary exchange of tokens.
38. Money has to have parity to have exchange value.
39. Wage and price controls obscure the inflationary effect but cannot control inflation.
40. Parities are determined by exchanges developed by competitive bidding with respect to return on labor, variations in time, location and circumstance.
41. Exchanges determine parities.
42. Wealth supports independence - money enslaves.
43. Government regulations of the use of capital inhibit free enterprise and cause economic decline.
44. Conspiracy to expropriate wealth with money assures the eventual destruction of the conspiracy.
45. The main economic function of money is the expropriation of wealth.
46. Unless wealth exchanges for wealth directly, credit extension or wealth expropriation is the result.
47. Take away all that a man produces and he stops working.
48. Supply can never exceed demand because a quantity cannot exceed itself.
49. A fractional reserve monetary system embezzles production within its sphere of influence.
50. Controlled prices oppose competitive parities.
51. No one can discover and disclose a truth based on a false premise.
52. Money expropriates wealth.
cockerel1
Sorry for the first post!
It was premature. I did not write the post and needed to explain that.

My apologies!
Chris Powell
(No Subject)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1718Unwinding of yen carry trade threatens 1998-style fall
in dollar.

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gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Robert
cockerel1: I agree with your statement

"Suggest if Oil is the prominent asset in the eyes of some, they are being selfish as to just who and what society in general, and this generation in particular, is all about".

You are right. Civilizations come and go. As the Roman civilization passed, so will our present industrial civilization be history one day. Unfortunately, the death of industrial civilization will be accompanied by lots of pain and human suffering. The question is: Should we be indifferent to that coming human catastrophy? I am not old enough in order to answer this question with a resoundding "YES!".
cockerel1
Robert - msg#: 110286
One of the dangers of not studying, or being taught history, and not just American history, is that people tend to become quite introverted and lose sight of where we came from, how we arrived here, and where we can and need to go.

We, the people of this small planet, have faced and overcome many challenges. This generation will be no different. Even the hardships, when they arrive, will be faced with a neverending desire to want to survive.

I for one, have a lot of faith in man. Even though he has the neverending abilty to keep messing up, still he survives.

And so be it!

ge
@Belgian
Thanks for your kind words. Lack of financial media interest in gold may indicate that we are in an early phase of the gold bull market. There is a saying that the bull market functions in such a way that most people stay out of the market, while the bear market functioning keeps most of the people in the market. Being in synchronization with the business cycle is very difficult and time consuming. Monitor market valuations, FX rates, interest rates & differentials, monetary aggregates, debt levels, demographic considerations, geopolitics etc. etc. Moreover, one has to read various commentaries to form an opinion. Without the internet, it would be very very difficult...
Max Rabbitz
Robert....Gold is Wealth?
Robert........where to start.........Don't worry about offending me. Truth often offends when the opposing arguements are weak. This tactic is now commonly used in American Academia to shut down and eliminate critics.

I agree with your concerns but you set up a straw man to knock down when you say......"The fallacy consists in the belief that if you have gold, you will always be able to buy quality food, cheap energy, quality medical services, quality public education and live in a safe crime free neighbourhood - all basic ingredients of what I consider real wealth. Enough said."

Just the opposite has been said here over and over again. No one can guarantee these things. Prepare as best you can. Gold is a form of wealth. Perhaps the best. Ignore it at your peril. Of course some have great wealth with no gold. Fidel Castro commands the resources of an entire island and can get just about anything he wants with a wink of the eye. Slaves are wealth too if you take care of them. So are soybeans. We all know this. Gold has advantages for preserving wealth in difficult times that soybeans or slaves do not have.

I share your concern for the state of the world but my list of causes goes further and includes the self-righteous non-sense of socialist theory divorced from all natural reality, a national banking system that encourages populist politicians and economic bubbles, an economically ignorant populace, massive increases in populations and the religions/cults/sects that encourage it, and/or the destruction of the non-believers. Paper money is useful but there must be a regulator somewhere in the system. Gold provided this in the past and will likely soon again in some form. So as has been said.......get you some and prepare as best you can.
Mr Gresham
I was going to say something...
about handling and accepting differing viewpoints in a forum filled with intelligent posters, but -- guess what -- you've handled it just fine, IMO. "Men of good will" may butt heads, but, until the occasional actual troll (intentional disrupter) appears to be dealt with, all is merely the discussion that makes us stronger. Thanks to all.

My strong hope is that anyone will always feel welcomed joining in a real discussion here. And that we allow for the difficulties of the written Internet medium we enjoy.

(Just skimming, it was tantalizing trying to absorb quickly what I could from all the good commentary. I hadn't time to read carefully enough to comment on content of posts, let alone on the moment's controversies, so this is as far as I wanted to go...)
Belgian
Re
silvercollector 110263 :More paper gold market(s) is more Unfree Gold (containment). More Physical Gold Market(s) is closer to Free Gold.

Remarx 110264 : It is M. Kosares who decides on what can or cannot. I wish to behave as an educated guest and am supposed not to offend other guests in the host's home. I want to stick to that principle. Amen Bro.

steady 110265 : Your message is understood and please do remain "in the mood" for Gold !

Cor Tauri 110273 : A Free Gold Market is a market that is in FREE competition with all currencies. The freedom of choice for ALL to hold Gold or currency as the most trusted store of one's wealth. Be it for temporary storage or for transfer to the next generation(s).

The ECB's mark to market principle is the cleariest sign that the euro-architects have a Free Gold Market in mind !
Simply because there never will be a perfect currency that answers the definition of wealth.

We patiently wait and see if, when and how a Free Gold Market is going to work out and what will eventually be the extend of Gold's revaluation.

Analyse for yourself how unfree your different paper holdings are and compare this with the holding of Physical Gold in Possession into the future. Or how free or unfree is a bird in his cage ?

Robert 110278 : Real freedom does exist when each and everyone can choose his own definition of what represents wealth for him/her. A very personal evolving process.
I wish to consolidate the fruits of my labor into my choice of Gold wealth and wish this tangible to become fully Free.
I have a house and accept that I'm NOT the full owner of this (taxed) property. On all other paper holdings, I do accept the cascading taxes and agree to comply with all regulations. The same story for land, food, water, air etc...I am NOT owning these tangibles and can therefore not be considered as the expression of my personal wealth. All these things do belong, for a certain fraction of it, to the collectivity, through taxes.

But when I give you one ounce of bullion, hand to hand, you received a piece of unencumbered wealth that lasts for ever. Have you another example that is complying with this criterium of... consolidated wealth, unencumbered and for ever ?

The capacity to produce food, leads to the possibility to "consolidate" this food-wealth into the ultimate form of transferable Gold-wealth. If and when this could happen again in a totally Free and MODERN Gold market...it would be a wonderfull world.

But, alas...all our efforts are condemned to depreciate/detoriate in value as time goes by. This leads us to the obligation to perpetual production of more of the same depreciating stuff as to not empoverish when the production (savings) is declining.

Gold should also be in the capacity of expressing one's Freedom. The bird's cage should remain "open" !

The biggest achievement (merits) of the Gold Advocacy on the www-net is the general public's discovery of how "Unfree" Gold (the gold market) really is (has been) !!! Fantastic !
We are in the process of realizing that we have been living in a (golden) cage. One day w'll fly away and leave unfreedom for yesterday...(Randy Crawford song)



Cavan Man
China/AU
More domestic investors are interested in tapping into the gold market, with more than 20 percent of stock investors willing to transfer part of their funds to the gold market, according to a questionnaire of investors in ten Chinese cities, sina.com.cn reported yesterday.

Gold has boasted a high profile in China, with over 70 percent of respondents favoring gold, according to the questionnaire.

More than 20 percent of investors are ready to transfer part of their funds to the gold market, and 7.5 million stock investors will invest in gold in the near future, said a questionnaire analyst.

If each stock investor puts 14,000 to 26,000 yuan (US$1,686 - US$3,132) into the gold market, a total of 100-190 billion yuan is expected to be injected into the gold market, the analyst said.

Housing properties, cars and education are the top three options that people are willing to spend their extra money on, followed by investing in stocks, collection and bullion, the questionnaire indicated.



Wendy Zhang/ Shanghai Daily news

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

R Powell
Silver COT report
http://www.cftc.gov/dea/futures/deacmxsf.htm For the time period ending 10/7/03 the so-called commercials have been the buyers in both gold and silver. This is the second week straight that the commercials have been buyers.

In silver, the commercials bought roughly 22,000 contracts which the large speculative players sold but, once again, the small specs barely flinched. These small players now hold 38.5% of the long positions. They are slowly accumulating and do not sell on the downtrends nor do they sell much for profits when the POS rises. As the percentage held by this group increases, there is less market share for the commercials and large funds to buy/sell and the sell/buy back and forth between themselves. During the week this report covers they traded 22,000 contracts while the small class players barely changed their position. Who are these guys?

For those who believe the myth that the commercials always win in this casino game, the monthly WASDE report of last Friday found the commercials on the wrong side of many markets. They got hammered in corn, beans, and cotton among others. Imho with gold and silver, their position is likewise no indicator of where the market may go.

P.S. Is fifteen deleted posts for one day a record? I'm sorry some were mine.

silvercollector
Druid
http://www.peakoil.netThe 2003 version is here.........
Belgian
@ge
I think the message today is a MUCH stronger one than the one you are describing :

Gold is NOT in another one of those repeated "bull-markets" ...but in the process of dramatic changes !!!

Not Gold, the usual yellow "speculative" metal,... but the pregnancy of Gold as a renewed Concept. BBBBBBiiiiigggggg difference, Sir !

If Gold was NOT pregnant of a renewed concept, no efforts would be wasted in perpetual abortion, killing of the foetus, by the general media and their collusive bosses.

Bulls can easely be stopped and reversed by the financial fraternity. A renewed, *growing* concept is much more difficult to stop or even curbing/bending it.

Gold (POG) did NOT start a "bull-move" in sept '99 with the WAG-bomb !!! Gold started to live ...was concepted and will continue to grow to mature, adolescent Freedom.

We simply don't believe that the new Gold-child is growing up, because we can't accept that father-dollar is aging, weakening and will die in its capacity of reserve-currency (pro-creation).

I've often, seriously questioned myself if I hadn't landed into beate wishfull Gold-thinking ! The answer, NO I haven't, is getting clearer by the day, when listening to the evolving multiple news-events...from a safer and safer distance.

We have been taking our prosperity for granted, much too long now ! All our quasi properties/merits are in a gigantic process of rapidly increasing, stealth and structural/systemic, *erosion* ! All paper worths, interest rates, direct/indirect taxes,...etc.

Worse,...I don't see any *lasting* solution (but Gold) for what is happening now. Emphasis on lasting solution !!!

Worse,...it is the financial fraternity's duty to keep on organising, fake financial orgasms as to create the perception of further well being !!! An act of desperation in my studentical opinion.

It's getting late, ge...tommorrow it is another day. Nighty nighty.


Druid
cockerel1 (10/12/03; 12:09:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 110283)

"by Merrill Jenkins, 1919-1979, Monetary Realist"

Druid: Cockerel1, I did a Google query on Merrill Jenkins some two hours ago and have not stopped reading. Thanks.
Robert
a question re free gold

I understand that the ownership of gold bullion was illegal in the US since the 1930's. If I remember correctly, that changed under president Carter in the early 1970's presumably in response to the closure of the gold window by Nixon in 1971. Does anybody remember what were precisely the reasons to reallow gold ownership for American citizens? I would like to understand what happened at that time. Was that decision reached against the opposition of the Fed and the treasury? If not, could that event be viewed as the first step on the long journey to free gold?
Paper Avalanche
How does one manage the collapse of the world's reserve currency?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/EJ10Dh01.htmlInteresting read.

Snip:

"Japan: The rapid run on dollar assets
By Hussain Khan

TOKYO - With the Nikkei stock average currently flirting with 11,000, up about 45 percent from its post-bubble 13-year low of 7,607.88 in April, it is starting to appear that a run on US dollar assets could well be causing the rise in Japanese stock markets.

The yen has surged through the psychological barrier of 110:US$1, creating a sense of crisis as the run on dollar assets gains momentum. Japanese authorities are cautious about intervening heavily before Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi reaches an understanding on the currency in his meeting with US President George W Bush on October 17-18 in Tokyo.

According to one estimate, by Kyoto University Economics Professor Takamitsu Sawa, foreign investors have markedly improved the fundamentals of the Japanese economy by turning into huge net buyers of more than US$1.7 trillion in Japanese equities and assets and, by running away from their dollar positions, are thus generating a self-feeding cycle of further selling dollar assets and pushing up the Japanese markets even more.

The flight of global investors from the dollar has serious implications, not only for the health of markets such as Japan's, but because of the peril to the US economy and thus the global economy as well, for which the United States has acted as economic engine and importer of last the resort. The US must take in $55 billion per day in investment in government paper and securities to fund the enormous deficits in its fiscal budget and its current account, the total balance of goods and services it trades with other countries. The current account deficit is expected to hit more than $540 billion in 2003, with the fiscal deficit trending towards $600 billion when off-budget liabilities are factored in.

However, since the events of September 11, 2001, fiscal and military decisions by the administration of President George W Bush have raised concerns (see The end of American economic supremacy?, Sep 19) by both US fund managers and individual investors about the long-term health of the American economy. By diverting their investments outside the United States, these fund managers are corroborating a bleak long-term view of declining US economic strength, gradually running away from dollar assets to buy other assets or currencies like the euro, the yen and the yuan."

PA
Chris Powell
Gold world stars to attend GATA reception in New Orleans
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1720GATA reception in New Orleans to include Allianz
Dresdner's Frank Veneroso, Sprott Asset Management's
John Embry, and Durban Roodeport Deep CEO Mark
Wellesley-Wood.

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
21mabry
(No Subject)
There is a good rountable discussion called silver bulls forcast on the sharfin link page to this site.James Turk and Jim Rogers and Dave Morgan are among the guest.21
Druid
silvercollector (10/12/03; 15:40:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 110295)
Druid: Se--or Plata, muchas gracias por darme mas informacion para leer de aciete.

Mr. Silver, many thanks for giving more information to read about oil.
21mabry
(No Subject)
About a year and a half ago I wandered into my friends grandfathers coin shop and bought a 100 ounce bar of silver.About a year before that I had sold some silver to pay to live for awhile in New York city.I am not sorry about selling that silver New york was a great experience,but after losses in the stock market I went into the shop and bought silver again.Then a short time latter I bought my first computer and found this site.I consider this computer like new york an excellent experience.Without this computer and the net I would never have found this site.As a result I have been buying PMs since then and yes I have bought paper gold and silver too.I have to think someone was trying to tell me something a year and a half ago when out of the blue I bought that silver and found this site.Time will tell if that voice in my head was right.21
Liberty Head
RE: Robert msg 110298
http://www.libertyhaven.com/regulationandpropertyrights/bankingmoneyorfinance/goldstandard/goldlegal.html
snippit:
During this era of continued inflation the government was severing any remaining legal ties to gold. The final tie was cut on August 15, 1971, when the "gold window" was closed to foreigners. After that date, not even foreign central banks could convert their dollar holdings to gold. The American dollar was nothing but irredeemable fiat money.

Still a Money Monopoly
The legalization of gold ownership today does not restore gold as a medium of exchange. As a matter of fact, the willingness of the state to once again permit gold ownership is precisely because the state no longer views gold as a threat to its money monopoly.

-----------

Here is a good article publihed in The Freeman in 1975

Best Wishes
Great Albino Bat
Paper Avalanche: $55 billion a DAY seems a bit too much...

Asia Times says: "The US must take in $55 billion per day in investment in government paper and securities to fund the enormous deficits in its fiscal budget and its current account,

Paper Avalanche: The Asia Times has I think, made a mistake, since $55 billion a day, times 365 days in a year makes for something over $20 Trillion with a T.

U.S. problems are big, but not that big - yet, anyway.

Seems like a curiously big error in calculations, somewhere.

The GAB
Liberty Head
More Info For Robert
http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/austrianeconomics/currency.html
The Liberty Haven website has a great wealth of easy to access articles.

snippit:

As formalized at Bretton Woods in 1944, the gold-exchange standard became still more attenuated. The other participating countries agreed only to keep their currencies pegged to the American dollar; the dollar alone was convertible into gold. But even then, dollars were not, as formerly, convertible by anybody who held them, but only by foreign central banks.

The effect of this relaxation of discipline, combined with the growth of the Keynesian ideology, was increasing and almost universal inflation. The American monetary managers, under successive Administrations did not seem to have the slightest realization of the weight of responsibility they had assumed in agreeing to make the dollar the anchor currency for the world. They continued to inflate until, when other countries finally became more importunate in their demand for actual gold, President Nixon officially suspended gold payments on August 15, 1971.
--------------

In an effort to answer one of your questions, I found this awesome Liberty Haven website.

Thanks Robert

Dollar Bill
*>*.........+
Sir Robert,
Glad you are here.
You said;
"The fallacy is that if you are in possession of tangible monetary wealth, you can ignore what is happening in the real world."
I agree. However, the folks that frequent the forum are information vaccums. Not vaccum as in "empty" (not trying to start THAT conversation again!) But as in constantly taking in information about the real world.

"The fallacy consists in the belief that if you have gold, you will always be able to buy quality food, cheap energy, quality medical services, quality public education and live in a safe crime free neighbourhood - all basic ingredients of what I consider real wealth. Enough said."
Agreed again, but I wonder what the fate of an Argentine man who invested in gold a couple years ago is.
There are reasonable men who think we may go the Argentinian way.
Dollar Bill
(!_!)
Sir Remarx, economics drives mass migration.
Religious reasons do also.
Mexicans are moving into the US in tremendous numbers. They dont want to stay in Mexico and ........hmmm, would that be ok to say?
Dollar Bill
(No Subject)
Greetings Sir Remarx,
I just found this info. Putin made some noise about moving oil in Euro's, but this sheds some light on other factors involved.

"Putin is very much interested in changing the structure of OPEC and he cannot do that without the United States," said Alexander Rahr, an expert on Russia at the German Council on Foreign Relations. "He can only get a foothold for Russia in the Middle East with [U.S. help]. And, he wants to get contracts for the Russian oil industry in Iraq -- for this, too, he needs the United States."

Some analysts said that the statement appeared to be aimed at boosting Russia's global clout on the world stage. "Putin is trying to create a position for Russia as an independent player. But his aim is not to undermine relations [with the United States]. He just wants to boost Russia's position up from being a junior partner," said Dmitry Trenin, geopolitical analyst at the Carnegie Moscow Center.

Yevgeny Gavrilenkov, chief economist at Troika Dialog and an earlier architect of the Putin government's first economic plan, said debate is growing on a move to the euro as Russia mulls siding with the EU. "Such an idea is really possible," he said. "Why not? More than half of Russia's oil trade is with Europe. But there will be great opposition to this from the United States."

He said that while a switch would have no direct impact on the Russian economy, it would give a great boost to the euro zone.
But even Fedun could not help putting a political price tag on the move. "We are ready to move to the euro if the country will be included in a visa-free regime with Europe," he said.

Rahr agreed that the timing of the statement seemed calculated to extract political concessions from the EU. "It's a bargaining chip," he said.

Gavrilenkov suggested Putin was also angling for EU concessions on other issues discussed in Yekaterinburg, such as terms for Russia's WTO accession.
Robert
free gold
http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=49
Quote: "The private ownership of gold is a privilege, not a right. Congress revoked the privilege of private ownership in 1933 and restored it in 1974. Congress could easily revoke the privilege again. In fact, at no time during this century has the US Government recognized the right of private gold ownership. The Trading With The Enemy Act, which President Roosevelt invoked in 1933 to restrict private gold transactions, remains law. The government could reactivate the machinery, which the Trading With The Enemy Act established, to implement gold confiscation."
Remarx
Thank You
Thanks. I will no longer raise the issue. (Bet the moderator is happy.)
Liberty Head
Re: Robert msg 110312 Free Gold

Congress is not the best source for understanding words meanings.
They are notoriously confused about who is the master and who is the servant, what is a right vs what is a privilege, etc. They usually have it exactly reverse of the truth.
While the gov't could reactivate it's machinery, so can we.

Best Wishes
Belgian
@ Dollar Bill
msg #110311 : An important one, qua insights.
Oil - euro - dollar, circling around Gold.
Deficits, trade flows, unemployment, pensions, demographics, geopolitical and personal interests, etc...causing the entanglement of intriging webs. Remember the Yukos-Sibneft intriges (not yet finalized) ! Have a look at the LT pricechart of Lukoil !
Russia is spotting an "opening"...an opportunity...synergies ! But will have to make choices (US-EMU) in order to succesfully capitalize on them. Things are really changing, aren't they.



In a late night, Belgian political debate on some fundamental economic problems, a socialist politician (old timer), mentioned the Belgian Gold sales again...it sounded AS IF HE WAS REGRETTING OF HAVING DONE SO ...?

The subject was about, how to balance (activa-passiva) the book-keeping (hiding) of rising deficits. I was thinking off selling Gold and leasing it back when it increases in price as a book-keeping maneuver ? The magic triangle of EMU's 12 (15) National banks > ECB > BIS !? WAG and mark to market. Goldminer's (allocated-?) forward sales of 3,000 tonnes.

Robert's question : After the confiscation of US citizen's Gold, the US$ found some relief for its Gold obligations and Americans had been supporting their dollar with the abandonment of their Gold. Once dollar expansion started to debauche during the period that Americans were not allowed to possess/accumulate bullion...Gold had to be released in the containing bird's cage. This worked out fine, because the planet agreed to stick to the de facto dollar standard and Gold was *percepted* as quasi free but was never going to be able of competing with the enormous (planned) dollar expansion and its benevolent general consequences, initially. Once there was evidence that the POG run of 1971 > 1980 (x 25) could be brought under control...dollar expansion was relatively sure it could go on with convenient general conscent.

NOW, this past is being questioned by the (euro) competitor and its possible allies (CBs).





Dollar Bill
*>*.........+
Sir Belgian,
First, good morning Sir Remarx ;)

Belgian, the first thing I woke up thinking was about the comment by the russians about tradeing oil for euro's in exchange for among other things..no visa travel.
Lots of implications there. Mass migration among them.

MK probably is already thinking along the lines of what
could......hmmm, Russians are way too, what would be the right word, independent? To line up to be the next state to lose itself in the coming nation of Euro states.
Dont you think?
That russian seat on the security council is too much to give up someday?
cockerel1
Re: Liberty Head
"Congress is not the best source for understanding words meanings.
They are notoriously confused about who is the master and who is the servant, what is a right vs what is a privilege, etc. They usually have it exactly reverse of the truth.
While the gov't could reactivate it's machinery, so can we."



Unfortunately too few people realize this, or even want to acknowledge it. Why?

In my opinion, one of the reasons is, our "civil servants" have destroyed the learning process. History, and all the steps it has taken us to get to where we are, are forgotten. No longer do the bureaucrats and servants want to be realized as such. They now exercise control by keeping the new generation ignorant. Once the "baby boomers" are through the life cycle, the metamorphosis will be complete. Those that are knowledgeable to what has happened will be too few to do anything about it.

Who was it that once said, "There is more than one way to win the war"?

Druid
Russian Credit Rating Improving
http://www.prudentbear.com/creditbubblebulletin.aspSnip:

October 8 � Bloomberg: "Russia's foreign-currency bond ratings were raised two levels to investment grade by Moody's�five years after the nation defaulted on $40 billion of domestic debt. Moody's increased the ratings for Russia's Eurobonds to Baa3, the lowest investment-grade level, from Ba2, citing the government's progress in reducing debt and spending. It's the first time the country's foreign debt has been rated investment grade by either Moody's or Standard & Poor's� The country's 5 percent dollar bond due 2030, the most traded emerging-market Eurobond, gained 2.65 cents on the dollar to 97.7 cents, pushing the yield down to 6.88 percent� Five-year credit-default swaps for Russia, which pay out in the event of missed debt payments, fell to 175 basis points from 225 basis points yesterday and 425 at the start of the year�"

Bloomberg quoted a Goldman Sachs economist: "It is a big, big turn and is a reflection on the political stability, much better fiscal policy, and a degree of luck with the high oil prices." From Dow Jones, "The country's ratio of government debt to gross domestic product has fallen from nearly 100% to 33% as its economy has strengthened." Well, I would strongly argue that rising oil prices have nothing to do with "luck." Instead, energy prices are a prime incipient consequence of global reflation. The ruble this week traded to its highest level against the dollar since December 2001. The IMF today raised it forecast of Russia's 2003 growth rate to 6.25% (estimate was at 4% in April). "The mission found the macroeconomic situation had strengthened considerably."

Druid: Things are really looking up in Russia. Man, what a few choice comments can do to make an economic picture look so good.
Druid
Interesting Trend
http://www.prudentbear.com/creditbubblebulletin.aspOctober 10 � Financial Times: "Euro-denominated high-yield bond issuance rose 168 per cent to $7.3bn in the first nine months of 2003, according to Thomson Financial. This exceeded the 121 per cent rise in high-yield dollar bond volumes though at $98.6bn, the dollar market is far larger.

Druid: Interesting trend and differential in amounts.
silvercollector
Spot closes at 374.70, 3 bold legs up this afternoon....
....good job Mr. Spot!
Pan
!!! Austrian Minister of Finances has a 33% percentage Gold Mines In his private Share Account !!!
http://derstandard.at/standard.asp?id=1448726Because off a shareholdings scandal, the austrian minister of finances Karl-Heinz Grasser was forced to display on his homepage (german language), his private shareholdings. Please take a look *** 33% are GOLD Mines *** http://www.karlheinzgrasser.at/evo/web/khg/3660_DE.0 *** http://www.karlheinzgrasser.at/evo/web/khg/3662_DE.0 ***

The newspaper Der Standart has written a story! Link above! ***

The austrian minister of finance as a gold bug! ***

Perhabs that guy must know something we do not know yet? ***
USAGOLD Daily Market Report
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has beenupdated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our freeintroductory information packet detailing the products and services offeredby USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and lookforward to working with you.


"After falling by as much as $4 an ounce during Monday's session, gold futures reversed course amid thin Columbus Day holiday trading to end the session higher. "Value investors stepped up to the plate today at the same time the equity markets started to back off the highs," said John Person, head financial analyst at Infinity Brokerage Services."
Gandalf the White
Energy Pie in the Sky ? -- OR is that the MOON ?
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.htmlEvaluate this one Sir Black Blade !
Think that the trip to the Moon is cost effective ?
<;-)
Mr Gresham
Thanks, Pan!
None o' that 5% crap for ol' Karl-Heinz, eh?

Notwithstanding last week's electoral events, I think I can here insert my earlier (original?) one-liner, in parody of Tricky D: "We're all Austrians now."

K-H, not much of a rich guy, from the looks of it? Just another Boomer (like us?), who needs to hit a long ball (Black Hawk, junior of juniors?) on his small savings to ever have a hope of retiring?
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
Build your financial base. BULLION at only one percent over our cost, FREE shipping on 25oz
CoBra(too)
K-H. Grasser @ PAN
Thanks for the Standard story - I only read Die Presse, which has really improved since the advent of (the rather biased) Der Standard.

Isn't it pathetic that the opposition has no other arrows as to accuse the Austrian Finance Minister not to have disclosed a normal, diversied and speculative portfolio to parliament. Must be a lot of fun to be an Austrian politician.

Biggest position Black Hawk Mining near its high at .30 CDN -may have helped to bridge the almost total loss of Jo Wood, an internet games provider. Small position in Newmwont and Glencairn Gold.

Nice to see some "insiders" in the fiat game plan going gold too ... cb2

PS: In comparison to some known political culprits this is not even pea nuts ... Only NUTS!

Leigh
CoBra(too)
Hi, CoBra! If you're in the D.C. area soon, please give us a call (MK can give you the phone number)! We'd be glad to drive over to meet you and say hello if you have some spare time!
CoBra(too)
@ Leigh
Thanks, dear Leigh,

Unfortunately I'm only stopping over at the Dulles Airport end of Oct. on my way to New Orleans this time. Though, next year I'll make a mental note to stay a couple of days around. Got to see some friends there too, once in a while.

Again, thanks for the kind offer and enjoy the rest of your Columbus day - cb2

PS: The late action in Spot and Spike is quite telling ...
glennh10
Stock Buys From Insiders at 10-Year Low
http://www.newsday.com/business/local/newyork/ny-bzearn3491369oct12,0,3137809.storyThose "in the know" are bailing out.

It reminds me of the Austrian Finance Minister/gold bug.

I wonder how many Fed, IMF, World Bank and other banking/financial big shots are closet gold bugs. More than just a few, maybe?

Sundeck
Sir Gandalf #110324 - Energy Pie in the Sky ? -- OR is that the MOON ?
If I may contribute to the great debate on energy solutions for the Earth (errr, the US)...

Alas, Sir Gandalf, I fear the mission of extracting helium-3 from the Moon's surface is akin to extracting gold from the Earth's seawater! ...perhaps even more futile!

Using the figures in your link to the Artemis Project, I calculate that there is only about 70 kg of helium-3 per square km of the Moon's seas (maria).

BUT we need 25 tonnes of H-3 to power the US for one year, implying that we need to ***fully extract*** all the H-3 from about 340 square km of the Moo's surface every year! Gadzeeks! Do you know how much heat that would require? ...and what energy source would be used to provide the heat? (No fossil fuels on da Moon. Perhaps a connecting crank with the Earth to get ORBITAL GRAVITATIONAL ENERGY.) And what about the infrastructure of such a plant!

Alas...alas...I fear it may be all too difficult.

Getting H-3 from the Moon's maria is like getting gold from the Earth's "maria"... or like milking the cow that jumped over the Moon, and didn't quite make it (does anyone recall that famous Larson cartoon?)

;-)

Sundeck
CoBra(too)
A few selected Headings by the "Privateer"
"Can't make a Living? Borrow!

"A Service Economy is NOT an Economy!"

Elsewhere I read that the US is now producing only 45% of the goods they consume. OK, the rest of the still productive world has so far "re-patriated" the earned dollars and converted them to US assets - some hard, some financial.

As real US assets are becoming more and more in short supply and only the former safest of all assets - US TSY Bonds - remain available, second thoughts are beginning to gain momentum.

Second thoughts about what it will mean to have the full credit and power of the US behind the payment promises - tomorrow. Second thoughts about the eventual means of repayment and second thoughts about repayment at all. And finally second thoughts in repayment at what - even relative value?

Most of the gold may again have left the vaults, as happened before in the infamous London Gold Pools. The country, overall has a debt burden of about 4 times its GDP - in good times. The current account deficit is approaching 6% - where as 5% was seen as a recipe for disaster, at least historically.

OK, why is the US still going ahead the path to destruction and creates new obligations by the Trillions? Indestructible? Just by means of military force? History is obliterated with countries following the same fallacy; History also never had a hegemonial fiat monetary system. A system which now seems combattened by contenders, which may prove to be "becoming" too big for the hegemon.

There's a limit to almost everything in this world. As there's a limit as to how much you can blow up the dollar "printing" p�ress. Commodity prices are stating reality. Just look at the CRB ... and then look at Gold and Silver!!!

A tightly wound coil as ever! Time's a running out for the Johnny/Janie's come lately pretty fast now - I presume, and what say you Dr. Watson? Uh?, Oh, go gold as fast you can afford ... Sherlock!

- And you don't even have to be S. Holmes, as the trail has brightly been illuminated by (A-)Other's.

Thanks for putting up with me - cb2










turkey hunter
Buba eyes 400-600 tonne gold sale in new pact-paper
http://www.forbes.com/markets/newswire/2003/10/13/rtr1107253.htmlsnip......

Boersen Zeitung said its sources assumed that a new agreement would increase gold sales by a maximum of 10-15 percent over the current one, which caps total sales at 2,000 tonnes over the five-year life of the agreement, or about 400 tonnes per year.........

glennh10
Russia to price oil in euros in snub to US
http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2003/10/10/cnoil10.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2003/10/10/ixfrontcity.html"to forge closer ties with the European Union...

"The move has set off a chain reaction in the private sector, leading to a fourfold increase in euro deposits in Russian banks this year and sending Russian citizens scrambling to change their stashes of greenbacks into euro notes."

"A switch to euro invoicing...could encourage Middle Eastern exporters to follow suit and have a powerful effect on market psychology at a time when the dollar is already under intense pressure. Russia boasts the world's biggest natural gas reserves and is the number two oil exporter after Saudi Arabia."

On another note, as far as the Bundesbank selling gold, is it actual metal, or are they "balancing their accounting" for gold that has already been leased into the market? Also, if it's metal, there's a buyer. Asia, perhaps?





Cavan Man
turkey hunter
Germany is a fiscal nightmare in a demographic deathgrip. Just re-read "To Build a Fire" by Jack London. Germany must build its' own survival blaze and if it employs gold as tinder (for that is what the small allocation represents) it will do so at much higer prices. The Germans are not US sychophants like the English pols. Their metal wil fetch at higher prices.

Cavan Man
turkey hunter
Germany is a fiscal nightmare in a demographic deathgrip. Just re-read "To Build a Fire" by Jack London. Germany must build its' own survival blaze and if it employs gold as tinder (for that is what the small allocation represents) it will do so at much higer prices. The Germans are not US sychophants like the English pols. Their metal wil fetch at higher prices.

Robert
The right to own gold
was declared illegal by president Roosevelt in 1933. In 1974, under president Ford, congress did not change the famous "Trading with the enemy act" introduced by Roosevelt. That law is still in effect implying that US citizens still do not have the right to own gold. What congress did in 1974 instead was to introduce the "priviledge" for private US citizens to HOLD (but not to own) gold in a legal way. At the same time, congress explicitely emphasized that the "Trading with the enemy act" remains in effect implying that the government can confiscate gold at any time at its own discretion. What that means in practice is that every gold held by the public is in fact only on loan from the government. When you give our host Mr Kosares a call telling him that you wish to "buy" 10 gold coins, you are in reality applying for a gold loan from the government. The $3900 (+- change) you are being asked to pay is strictly speaking not a payment, but a security deposit you make for the loan. The loan can be called in (=confiscated) at any time by the government (most likely only during times of economic emergency). The terms of the loan agreement are that you will not earn any interest on the security deposit you made. It is therefore an illusion to believe that when holding gold you are holding an asset which is "nobody's obligation". In fact, that golden asset represents an obligation from you to the government (since it is an asset on loan from the government). So there is no principal difference in the three asset classes stocks and bonds, real estate and gold. None of them can really be "owned" without obligation to or control by the government. If you own real estate, you are liable for property taxes to the local government. This makes sense since by holding that real property you actually gain a benefit (a shelter and a home). So the property tax on your house is in some sense a rent payment to the government. Gold on the other hand, since it is basically useless (there is no benefit gained from holding gold except for the aesthetic pleasure) is, by the same logic, not being taxed as property.

The question is how likely is it that the government will ever call in the gold. In my opinion, this is very unlikely to happen. However, we can not exclude that possibility. For that reason, I think everybody should not only keep the gold safely, but more importantly, one should also keep the purchase receipts in good storage. If the gold is ever recalled, you will be reimbursed for your purchase price only if you have a receipt. In addition, if that receipt is for a substantial sum, you should also keep bank statements and tax returns in the safe deposit box in order to prove to the government that the gold was not obtained as a result of "money laundering" (=tax evasion). Remember, when dealing with the IRS, the usual rule "innocent unless proven guilty" does not hold. Instead, the IRS rule is "guilty unless proven innocent".

Personally, I am not afraid of gold confiscation. What I am afraid of is the future disappearence of cash money. Within the next ten years, we will see a gradual phasing out of cash. Instead, all money will be only electronic. Already today, more than 90% of all the money exists only in electronic form. Cash will be eventually replaced by a universal card containing a small computer capable of storing huge amounts of data. That card will serve as a credit card as well as cash storage (=electronic bits in computer memory). That revolution of banking is inevitable. The continued progress in data storage technology will eventually lead to total loss of financial privacy (guranteed today by cash money). With the gradual withdrawal of cash money from the economy (perhaps in order to fight terrorism and money laundering), every citizen will have one universal card containing all his personal data, bank accounts and financial history of his life. The government will have the ability to access that information at any time. Precious metal dealers would be required to withhold the capital gain tax on the sale of your gold coins. That capital gain tax could be quite steep. Already today the capital gain tax on precious metals is higher than on stock and bonds.

For the silver bugs among us: I think one advantage of silver in comparison to gold is that we have a right to own silver, but we do not have a right to own gold. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Warren Buffett decided in 1997 to acquire a substantial amount of physical silver instead of buying physical gold.
cyberbat
New hope for gold
Some months ago I was censord on this site because I quoted a portion of a speech by the great Abraham Lincoln.Although, it was his first inaugural speech in 1861.
But today, I come to this forum making a request of the participants. There is a new party forming and a petition to draft Con. Ron Paul for president. That site has a mission statement of wanting "Gold money & equal tax rates."
Some of you may find it very interesting if you love freedom and gold like I do. www.AFR.org/mission.html
Thanks for your time. No more quotes by american heroes.
Cyberbat
Cavan Man
Right to own gold......?
Robert, what's this "we" business; got a mouse in your pocket eh? I have a right to own gold. It is my inalienable right. As long as I have it in my possession, it is my right and I am right in possessing it. It's a big, beautiful world my friend. Many, many nations will give one that RIGHT.
Cavan Man
For the chicken littles out there......
An increase of 10-15% in German allocation doesn't begin to cover the gold that is not coming out of the ground this year because it has already been mined, sold and not REPLACED. As an aside; recal that a percentage of a small number remains a SMALL number.
Kilo
Robert
As long as "electronic" blips within the banking system are fallible, unreliable, and untrustworthy, there will be cash. And as long as cash remains unbacked fiat (fallible unreliable, and untrustworthy over the long term) there will be gold and those who hold gold in preferrence to other forms of "money", "wealth", "freedom", et al.

I might have to disagree with your thoughts on "ownership" of silver vs. gold also. As long as the government is "making the rules", there will be absolutely NOTHING to prevent them from changing those rules any time they please.

Whether government(s) ever again attempt a confiscation of gold (and/or silver) is subject to much debate. But I think the folly of even attempting such in this day and age would soon become apparent. You can fool some of the people etc. etc....... But I don't believe the true gold advocates are buying the B.S.
Cavan Man
Gold Confiscation Bogeyman
70 + years ago one needed a bit of planning and likely an ocean going vessel to find safe haven for one's RIGHTful and personal property. Today, one needs a charter jet and two pilots for a trip across the pond; surely worth the fare of three or four Krugerands (1 OZ).
glennh10
Re: Gold Ownership
Between 1933 and 1974, many people in the U.S. owned gold. I don't believe any gov't has ever successfully prevented it - including our land of liberty. Whether I own gold or not has nothing at all to do with a "privilege", whether granted or denied.

Cheers.
Druid
Robert (10/13/03; 19:17:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 110337)
Executive Order 11825--Revocation of Executive orders pertaining to the regulation of the acquisition of, holding of, or other transactions in gold

Source: The provisions of Executive Order 11825 of Dec. 31, 1974, appear at 40 FR 1003, 3 CFR, 1971-1975 Comp., p. 929, unless otherwise noted.

By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 1 of the Act of August 8, 1950, 64 Stat. 419, and section 5(b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended (12 U.S.C. 95a), and as President of the United States, and in view of the provisions of section 3 of Public Law 93-110, 87 Stat. 352, as amended by section 2 of Public Law 93-373, 88 Stat. 445, it is ordered as follows:

Section 1. Executive Order No. 6260 of August 28, 1933, as amended by Executive Order No. 6359 of October 25, 1933, Executive Order No. 6556 of January 12, 1934, Executive Order No. 6560 of January 15, 1934, Executive Order No. 10896 of November 29, 1960, Executive Order No. 10905 of January 14, 1961, and Executive Order No. 11037 of July 20, 1962; the fifth and sixth paragraphs of Executive Order No. 6073, March 10, 1933; sections 3 and 4 of Executive Order No. 6359 of October 25, 1933; and paragraph 2(d) of Executive Order No. 10289 of September 17, 1951, are hereby revoked.

Sec. 2. The revocation, in whole or in part, of such prior Executive orders relating to regulation on the acquisition of, holding of, or other transactions in gold shall not affect any act completed, or any right accruing or accrued, or any suit or proceeding finished or started in any civil or criminal cause prior to the revocation, but all such liabilities, penalties, and forfeitures under the Executive orders shall continue and may be enforced in the same manner as if the revocation had not been made.

This order shall become effective on December 31, 1974.

Druid: One Branch.
Robert
cavan man: "I have a right to own gold"

As long as you do not revoke your citizenship, the laws enacted by the US congress do apply to you regardless where you live. Even if you decide to live and work let's say in China, you are still obligated to pay income and capital gain taxes to the US government. By being born in the US, you are automatically property of the US government. (This is not a joke).
Druid
Robert (10/13/03; 19:17:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 110337)
December 9, 1974 - Rather than continue an endless and periodic devaluation of the dollar in terms of gold, decision was made to allow the price of gold to seek its own level in a free market. By this date, gold certificates had been issued by the Treasury to the Federal Reserve against all of the gold owned by the Treasury.
December 31, 1974 - The ban on private ownership and trading of gold by U.S. citizens was ended (Public Law 93-373).

In connection with the lifting of the ban on private ownership of and trading in gold by U.S. citizens, the Treasury announced it would sell gold at auction. In the January-June 1975 time period, the auctioned gold sold at roughly $165.00 per fine ounce.

Druid: Public Law is issued by Congress. Executive Orders are issued by the President. "The ban on private ownership" suggest to me that you can "own" something.
Robert
Druid: Thanks for the quote. Please
do me a favor and comment on the reference I quoted in my message #110312. I am eager to hear what your opinion is.
Cavan Man
Robert
Whatever. I CHOOSE FREEDOM (at least the largest portion I can find.)!
Black Blade
Gandy - The Artemis Project
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html
Interesting but I wouldn't be making any investments in this project quite yet. ;-)

Sorry for being late in getting back to you on this. It's been hectic this last week and weekend and had to workout for a martial arts competition (actually work out with some very experienced visitors from the west coast - quite sore too). The rest of the week will be much the same. Still quite a learning experience.

Notice the rapid recovery in gold in the late trade today? It was light trade in all the markets due to a couple of nations having closed markets for holidays and the US trading on such light volume - especially the equities market (the bond market was closed and therefore could not gauge the money flows). Someone (deep pockets) or some funds took charge in late trade before testing the $368 level - perhaps "front running" the expected rise as the physical market really picks up with the approach of Diwali on the 28th. With little economic data until Thursday this could be a very volatile period as the focus will be mainly on "earnings season" (especially lowered consensus earnings that are really bogus as the "expectations" bar has been lowered so much). It looks as if the bubble is reinflating for the Lemmings and we have never really had the "capitulation" that so-called "expert" economists had said was necessary.

- Black Blade
Liberty Head
Past Confiscation vs Future Confiscation

When gold was confiscated in 1933 the situation was quite different from our current situation. Prior to 1933, gold was commonly used and viewed as money. New laws prohibited the use of gold as money. Initially folks could still hold gold but they could not use it as money. It wasn't too difficult to persuade folks to exchange their gold for the new paper money. Folks beleived these laws would help gov't end the recession. Gold had lost value in their eyes.
A short time later, gold was then made illegal to own, though the penalties were mild and the risk of getting caught were low as long as you didn't attempt to use it as money. In desparate times, folks overwhelmingly wanted money. Voluntary compliance was high. The gov't did not need to send out thousands of armed thugs to knock down doors in the early morning.

Our current situation is quite different. While it is again legal to own gold, it is not commonly used as money. It is commonly used as insurance against inflation and and failed fiat policy. It won't be so easy to get voluntary compliance under the circumstances we are likely to soon see. Folks will see gold as gaining in value. For the gov't, forced compliance will be an expensive, high risk/low yield adventure.
Flight, fighting and fraud will rise dramatically. There will be many superior alternatives to handing your gold over to the gov't.
Aristotle
Liberty Head
In giving your background of the 1933 Gold confiscation you might also do well to point out how bank runs were rampant and the time, threatening to collapse the nation's whole financial system.

One surefire way to eliminate chronic bank runs is to eliminate the convertibility of the monetary unit at the teller's window for the fractionally available asset which is through the nature of banking shown WHEN TESTED to be nortoriously in shortage against outstanding claims.

Gold. Own you some, because you CAN.--- Aristotle
Waverider
ECB: Pricing Oil in Euros Sensible
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/10/14/041.htmlThe Moscow Times, Oct.14, 2003

"European Central Bank President Wim Duisenberg said Monday that it might make sense for Russia to sell oil in euros to certain EU customers, entering a debate sparked last week that has big implications for currency markets...Russia is the world's second-largest exporter of oil after Saudi Arabia and the world's top gas exporter. A switch would be a powerful symbolic victory for the euro and might accelerate its growing role as an international reserve currency to challenge the dominance of the dollar. Analysts say such a move could prompt other oil exporters mulling a switch to follow Russia's lead. Iran, the world's No. 5 exporter, is openly considering a move to the euro and there is growing debate in Saudi Arabia on the issue. A move by oil exporters to the euro could spark massive inflation in the United States, economists say.

In a report on Friday, Britain's Daily Telegraph took the talk prompted by Putin's statement further, saying Schr�der had actually "secured" an agreement with Putin on making the switch. But a spokesman for the German government, when contacted by telephone, said he was unaware that such a deal had been reached."
Liberty Head
The Cashless Scenario
Ari,
Thanks for mentioning the banking crises more specifically. It is an important part of building a more convincing argument.
-------------
Cashless

First, I will say, "laws" do not always recognize "rights". They are two distinct concepts with seperate origins. They may or may not overlap. Again, don't look to Congress for clarity here.
Furthermore, we the people created Congress and we the people can return Congress to the ether from which it came.
Heck, Congress doesn't even need our help. It can destroy itself.
While Congress can make laws, it cannot produce a thing. Without producing things, Congress is a no-thing. In that sense, gov't is self-limiting. The bigger it gets, the smaller our product becomes.
The implementation of a cashless society would only hasten the demise of the new Empire. The demand for honest money would shift into overdrive. Black market exchange would become commonplace. Our gov't won't be able to build and staff enough prisons or find enough thugs to do the dirty work against it's own citizens.
It appears more folks are getting wise to the big gov't con game. Hopefully we can have a civil transition. Civil or otherwise, gold and silver are the preferred candidates for honest money.

Best Wishes


Aristotle
A generally related item (basically re-chewing old cabbage)
During the usual times when it wasn't so vividly perceived by the masses that outstanding claims "outweighed" the tangible deposits, can you imagine what effect that general condition had upon the per unit purchasing power?

To say "Gold is money" is to give bankers full licence to treat it like money, thus throwing open the door to lost purchasing power of the metal and giving rise to ambiguous notions of OWNERSHIP.

The reason to pursue the concept and cement in our minds the understanding of Gold = wealth is to aid in putting to rest the misguided pursuits promoting its use as Money (actually, toward that end it can never be more than Currency) among the folks who aren't content to simply let Gold be Gold. Soooooo.... call it Wealth if you must call it something (and indeed you should call it that!) but DON'T call it money unless you're willing to retract your statements if ever wisdom visits you like puberty some fine day.

Gold. Discover you the Nature of Things. A beautiful quest if ever there was one. --- Aristotle
Liberty Head
(No Subject)
Ari,
Thank you once again. Even the best wine can benifit from some careful filtration. :-)

The money of which you speak is not honest money, however lest I must go through a second puberty this late in life, I will acknowledge "wealth" as a superior term for the concept.

Soooo call it chewing old cabbage if you must call it something, but don't call it cole slaw.:-)


Best wishes
Belgian
Lady Waverider, surfing the right "wave" with msg#110352 !!!
Wakie wakie, dearest forumers...
CB-goldreserves are WORTH MUCH MORE than the percepted paper-price of a ridiculous amount of 375 paper-dollars for one Physical ounce of Gold that is resting in safe (or less safe) vaults !!!

Explain...

What an enormous "powerfull" message would it be, if and when...some (400-500 tonnes) German goldreserve would be offered for Russian energy (oil-gas)...and the exchange-swap of goldreserves (Germany > Russia) priced in euro !

Tree flies in one (symbolic)(homeopathic) clap : Energy and Gold and euro *** ASSOCIATED *** with each other !!!

Ding Dong, dear forumers....DING DONG !!!

At the same time, Iran repeats the already known message of oil for euro, whilst "accepting" (!!!) the Nobel Price.

At the same time, Saudi Arabia announcing that there will be "elections" !!!

At the same time, the ECB giving some strong signals that it wishes an orderly dollar-retreat against a "STABLE" euro !!! Emphasis on STABLE wich is the biggest fundamental of the euro-concept. Not like a dollar (in a dollar-system) where the floating means nothing else than " � la carte "...for the convenience of the US only.

Indeed Waverider, as in the article you posted..." A SYMBOLIC VICTORY FOR THE EURO " !!!

M. Albright was in the Netherlands, yesterday. She had some statements on US'(Israel) > ME policies. She is aware of the pressures that are building against dollar-action.
The occupation of Iraq was (is) the biggest mistake, the dollar ever made...had to make.(B.'s interpretations)

What "if" the homeopatic amount of German Gold to be transferred to Russian vaults, is Gold that is located, stored, "blocked" in US-vaults...!!!-??? Pooh, pooh.

If CBs are doing (have been doing) stupid things...it was (is) that those CBs were forced to do so?... or worse...wanted to do things, purposely, that seem so obviously stupid...at first sight for the general public.
Not all CBs are stupid all the time !!!

Ding Dong...
DummyANI
Mitsui Gold-trading Report at TOCOM:
Date: Net short changes Pre.COMEX-close
Sep. 16 28,672�c plus0862 �c.375.6
Sep. 17 32,011�c plus3339�c.. 374.6
Sep. 18 26,405. minus5606�c...377.3
Sep. 19 29,971�c.plus3566�c...377.7
Sep. 22 29,705. minus0266�c...382.9
Sep. 23 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....388.3
Sep. 24 27,807. minus1898�c...387.0
Sep. 25 31,971�c plus4164�c...388.4
Sep. 26 34,212�c plus2241�c...385.9
Sep. 29 36,535�c plus2323�c...381.8
Sep. 30 35,582. minus0953�c...383.2
Oct. 01 38,117�c plus2535�c...386.1
Oct. 02 37,353. minus0764�c...385.0
Oct. 03 38,758�c plus1405�c...383.7
Oct. 06 53,796�c plus15038�c...370.0
Oct. 07 58,706�c plus4910�c...373.3
Oct. 08 64,629�c plus5923�c...377.8
Oct. 09 62,648. minus1981�c...376.0
Oct. 10 60,357. minus2291�c...369.8
Oct. 13 .. nil�c ..�cnil�c �c�c....374.1
Oct. 14 61,787�c plus1430�c...375.7

D-ANI: Buy a gold, sell a Yen
Belgian
THE BIG GUNS.....
This morning at CNBC-Europ, the one and only JIM ROGERS !
He surely made my day with high quality info-tainment.

What was his message : The US$ is a disaster AND THE EURO WILL BREAK UP...THE EURO SYSTEM IS NOT GOING TO MAKE IT...EUROLAND WILL DESINTIGRATE !!!

The euro-system is NOT an alternative for the dollar-system, according to Jim, proud father of a 17 month old daughter and still a Soros buddy .

Jim's resources fund is doing OK ...but,...BUT...Jim was deafhening quiet on GOLD !!!
Jim is a non-conventional, controversial, guru-like adventurer. That's the reason why I'm appreciating him and symphatise strongly with him...
But Jim is NOT the type of guy that really fits into the A.A. financial establishment and his appearence with dramatic euro-pessimism, is therefore the more remarkable.

I find it all very fascinating. Especially when the contradictions (paradoxes) are piling up...dollar disaster and euro desintegration...Wawwwwww... IS THERE SOME GOLD LEFT...
Aristotle
Liberty Head (and ALL) on the topic of honest money
To offer up the culmination of a long inquiry into the nature of money from the humblest beginnings, two things come immediately to the fore.

1.) An understanding of money -- Form and Function -- requires *REQUIRES* an understanding of banking. This, to the extent that a person can't hope to claim a mastery of the monetary phenomenon that exceeds his or her mastery of banking as a System of Practices.

2.) Money is more about the Rule of Law than anything else.

Loooooonnnnng trudging will eventually root out even the most entrenched preconceived notions about Gold in all of this. In the end, we're left with this unobstructed view of the horizon: Banking institutionalizes the accounting of Money; Rule of Law provides the vitality of contracts (wages, loans, purchase orders) which, forming an interconnected network of settlements and expectations of settlements, gives rise to (and, at the same time, gives insight into) the Value that a society engenders in its monetary unit.

The role of Gold in the whole affair can be seen naturally as a passing phase in which the universal barter agent of Gold lumps evolved into standard Gold currency serving furthermore as a catalyst helping the Monetary phenomenon to set up and gel as a pure numerical system.

The problem with Gold's low bartering/exchange/market/wealth value today is that it hasn't yet been set free again to behave a pure Property. It remains encumbered in a certain element of the banking system as a token behind an artificial valuation established by derivatives.

As I tend to characterize it, it would seem that the Dollar-brand prototype of Money was never fully and fairly allowed to "gel" under standard Rule of Law within an uncoerced marketplace. As a result, the risk today is that the Dollar would collapse in a heap like so much premature quiche if LOW PRICED Gold were removed (i.e., becomes high priced Gold) as the ongoing stabilizing agent in the dollar's ongoing attempt at earning its own monetary wings.

The euro is trying not to make that mistake. It wants the marketplace to form a stable network of pricing and contracts without false pretenses with respect to Gold. If it succeeds, it will be the world's first fully fledged Money -- in the most Proper use of the word!

The euro could in fact be called honest money, if you like. That is, as honest and as trustworthy as the Rule of Law that stands in the background to enforce contracts.

But as we know, Rule of Law today is not one and the same predicable Rule of Law tomorrow. It blows around a bit due to political will. Therefore, we'll always want honest Gold property used as our core Wealth Savings. We'll own it to compensate for our human inabilities to provide ourselves with a PERFECT Money.

In other words, because we have to settle for using, at BEST, a system of honest money which is always humanly flawed, we need Gold to return to its ANCIENT job description as perfect property. The kind of stuff that can be OWNED, not "as money," but rather, OWNED....... (wait for it......).... UNAMBIGUOUSLY!!!!

I hope this doesn't make anyone choke on their breakfast!

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle
Belgian
One more amusing detail....
Jim Rogers says it is OK to invest in many places as Angola, Mozambique and alikes...Only one place (for investment) must be avoided...IRAN !!!
Is this an investment advise or a message ?

This coincides with the recent statement of an "Iranian opposition movement" (humhumm), that Iran has a second nuclear plant well hidden.

In other words...The geopolitical spin must still be seen as
as a hidden struggle between euro and dollar blocks. And that's how these (political)postings are indirectly Gold-related, through the currency struggles. Wanted to make this clear, once again.

Conclusion : Sympahatico Jim was mobilized for some biased messages. No problemas.
Belgian
Ari.....AAAAARIIIIII.....
THIS IS ONE OF YOUR GREATESTS POSTINGS I HAD THE HONOR OF READING !!!

I am speechless and saw the "unobstructed horizon " !

THANK YOU SIR !
Aristotle
Thank you, Belgian.
As soon as my mental search turned up "engenders" as precisely the right word I was looking for for use at that early stage (4th paragraph?) I kinda felt I had clear sailing all the way home. Thanks for the warm welcome at harbor.

Gold. Seeing is believing. --- Ari
Cavan Man
China's opinion on EURO Zone
EU viewed by China as world power to rival US
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 14/10/2003)


The European Union is the world's rising superpower, poised to overtake both America and Japan as the biggest trade and investment force in China, according to a strategic policy paper published by Beijing yesterday.

The Chinese government said the EU was transforming the global landscape with its successful currency launch and strides towards a joint foreign policy, defence, and judicial union.

Describing EU integration as "irreversible", Beijing marvelled at Europe's 25-35 per cent share of the global economy and its projected 450 million population after expanding into the former communist bloc next year.

The white paper follows a flurry of Sino-EU ventures, including the Galileo global satellite system, described as a direct challenge to the American GPS monopoly in space.

The two sides are also working together on nuclear research.

France and Germany have been pushing hardest for closer ties with China, hoping to cash in on a lucrative market but also to develop a strategic alliance as a counterweight to American power after the diplomatic trauma of the Iraq war.

Last June, the French defence minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, proposed sharing sensitive military technology with Beijing. She called for a softening of the arms embargo imposed on the country after the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989.

The Chinese already have the world's second biggest defence budget, �40 million annually, but they have to rely on outdated weaponry bought from Russia and Ukraine.

Yesterday's white paper said the ever-closer military ties rendered the EU embargo a relic from the last century.

China's efforts to court Brussels reflect a new mood of respect for the EU across Asia. India is also rushing to upgrade its ties with Europe, recruiting extra staff to lobby EU officials and MEPs.

Robert
honest money

Any honest attempt to define money must take into account the problem of setting and collecting taxes. In a economy where 50% of the GDP is represented by the public sector, a satisfying description of money must reflect that fundamental fact. Indeed, one of the historical reasons for introducing fiat money was the desire to collect and to enforce taxes in a efficient way. This can not be done easily when money is identified with a substance having intrinsic tangible value (like gold). Indeed, money should be a accounting unit, not a means for storing wealth.

Trade in fiat and save in gold!
contrarian
Waverider--pricing oil in euros
Very interesting this currency change coming up. On the sister site, gold-eagle, I read some musings that perhaps the currency will start with 20s, then graduate to all denominations. This is just a trial introduction, to see if it will work.

And if it does work, you will only be able to use the new colored money--standard greenbacks will no longer be accepted and valid as currency inside the US.

The ultimate goal, though, as I read on a very smart posting on gold-eagle, is to prevent all the green paper money outside of this country from coming back and causing inflation.

When oil is no longer transacted in the dollar, the dollars will have to go somewhere. With this control in hand, perhaps the Treasury can direct the dollars to more purchases of T bonds--thereby keeping the economy afloat and interest rates down--which is just what they need.

It's just a theory...
Belgian
Contrarian / C.M.
Contrarian : May I suggest a much more straithforward and simple theory : Throw as much dollar-paper at Physical Gold, for as long as you can !

C.M. : May I classify Ambrose's China-EU article under the Ding Dong Bell series !?
EMU, CB-gold has been transferred to China and according to J.Rogers, this morning, the yuan will revalue in time at the Chinese's pace. All should have understood the meaning of US$ printing presses and helocopter confetti by now.
A gigantic $-reflation maneuver against the �-stabilisation maneuvers.

Study as much as you can about the backgrounds of the 1929 stockmarket crash period and one can see much clearer in what is happening Now.

Duisenberg recently referred to the Far Eastern phenomenons and the �-$ exchange rate is also managed (by the ECB) in function of the evolvements overthere.

Bush is heading for Asia, this week !!! Will see...watch the exchange rates !
Cometose
Jim Rogers on China
It's interesting to look at his current commentary in light of his recent appearans on Financialsense.com Weekly talk show earlier in the summer.....

In that commentary , he appeared with Marc Faber and they discussed CHINA at length .....said the way to make a fortune in the nest two decades was in the CHINA import markets because everything they make is going to put upward pressure on commodities of all typss......Stay focused on the commodities that they have to import to produce finished goods for themeselves and the world......

HOWEVER , in the middle of this dialogue .....he said that their banking system was a mess and to expect a collapse there .......Interesting Belgian,,,,you commented that Jim is a Soros Buddy ....( I think that both these gentlemen were written up in Market Wizards .....(as TRADERS PAR EXCELLENCE)) Some believe that the last collapse in the Asian CONTAGION was precipitated by GEORGE SOROS himself...
With the chinese and perhaps the rest of the region stocking up on GOLD , Perhaps this prognostication will not stand......

It also seems that with the Political ugliness surrounding the MiddleEast and "lack of the smoking gun WMD's " in Iraq, there may be a cohesive movement politically and economic solidarity coming aroung the EU and GOLD BACKED CURRENCY...

WHen the powers that be seek to maintain the status quo in these situations , War always seems the answer....and Iraq is what we got so far.....

It's been politically very damaging to GEORGE BUSH....I hear continued talk and Verbal exchanges between the US and IRAN and the US and Korea......but it looks like the administration has shot itself in the foot....THey cannot go forward in their military plans because (we haven't been attacked yet) it's going to ruin the president's shot at a second term.....Looks like their going to have to stand around and watch while the US $ falls and the price of oil rises and the ineveitable fallout to the economy happens ....in the meantime.....How much damage will that be? We will all wait until next November to see?
Cavan Man
The Horror of it all....
CNN International - 3 hours ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Three more US soldiers were reported dead Tuesday following a series of attacks that killed three other American troops and wounded 13.
Clink!
More about the usual suspects....
http://www.stockhouse.com/news/news.asp?newsid=1950225Snip :

E-mails and internal documents, many published for the first time in next week's FORTUNE, expose the complicity of some of America's largest and most important banks in the Enron scandal. The report, adapted from the book The Smartest Guys in the Room by Bethany McLean and Peter Elkind (Portfolio), reveals how the banks - including J.P. Morgan Chase, Citigroup and Merrill Lynch -- helped Enron disguise debt and book phony profits, and how almost all of them put money into Enron CFO Andrew Fastow's partnerships because of - not in spite of - their potential for abuse.

The story appears in the October 27 issue of FORTUNE, on newsstands October 20 and at www.fortune.com on October 13. The Smartest Guys in the Room hits stores on October 13, 2003.

J.P. Morgan, Citigroup and Merrill Lynch no longer deny that they helped enable Enron and have recently paid $366 million in fines. But 'the documents show that the banks weren't merely enablers; they were truly Enron's partners in crime,'report McLean and Elkind.

C! : Looks like it could be an interesting read.
steady
independent thinking vs stuff on the net!
ever wonder how stuff gets on the net. someone has to put it there? so why i like coming here is the independent analysis of events circumstances and general discussion.
other items make me suspect... as why, if it was important, would the stuff find its way onto the net.

could gold be the bridge to reintergrate world economic activity?
out of the blue and into the balck. give gold a try bring it back!
NEMO me impune lacessit
NICE
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Cometose
Other Gold / chinese imports
It was brought to my atttention yesterday or over the weekend that soybeans had begun a move..ment

6 weeks ago about the time of its begin.....someone around here mentioned that that there was a megatrend in the offing that related to the NEW "NEW DEAL" in CHINA relating to ACHICKEN IN EVERY POT......CHineze consumption of CHICKEN is RISING with the STANDARD OF LIVING increasing daily on a broad scale.....so they need to raise more chickens to get the poultry out to the people .........and they have to feed those chickens ......soybeans......

I think I remember the author of this former post and I want to thank you RICH for the keen insight and I thought it bears repeating.....as the SOYBEANS may be GOLDEN import to CHINA>...

Now I looked at the CHart since 1973 and in that year Soybeans went to 13 approximantely and in 88 they went to 11 dollars bushel and in 97 they went to 9 and today they are at 7.4 and someone has been calling for Beans in the teens for sometime .......maybe sooner than we think
Liberty Head
More On Honest Money

I use the term "honest money" to refer to exchanges between two or more consenting parties, absent any legal tender laws, with the mandatory claims, titles and tracking that go along with them.
In other words, "money" would be defined by a free-market, not the force of gov't.
All the objections I have heard to calling gold "money" seem to assume that legal tender laws and gov't control would remain in effect. A practical assumption to make, but then we are no longer talking about "honest money".
As Robert points out, honest money would make taxation very problematic. Gov't would be constrained. Hallelujah!
Commerce, however would not be constrained.
Those who earned it, instead of those who steal it, would then possess wealth.
In a market absent legal tender laws, gold and silver would become the favored honest money as well as honest wealth.

Best Wishes
Belgian
@ cometose
As a follow up on your posting...I do believe that markets can be "detonated" when anti-forces cooperate/conspire.
The opposite is also true : Competitive market-forces can cooperate/conspire to "support" or "catapult" markets of their choice . That's what the financial brotherhood/fraternity and collusive (telephoned) intervention, is all about. This becomes very unhealthy in a capitalistic system, when market-forces become hyper-concentrated and hyper-powerfull and have the necessary force to drag the smaller and more independant market participants (not connected), into the maelstrom of the rulers' choice. Enron-itis !!!

Apply this to the quasi institutionalization of the Gold-containment and read Ari's post (sorry, masterpiece) msg#110359, afterwards. This will result in a splendid view of the "unobstructed" Gold-horizon (courtesy Ari).


Belgian
@Liberty Head
Gold trade in a future Free Gold Market will be taxed !!!
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I will leave some of you guessing about the "dinner comment" in the comments section I am sure. Those who remember the elder Bush's last dinner with the Japanese Prime Minister will get the point I am sure.
Robert
honest money and entropy

Beyond taxation, there are other important issues which need be taken into account when contemplating the idea of honest money. Consider the average worker who has been working hard and honestly all his life. After working for roughly 40-50 years he is looking forward to retirement. In a honest money system he should expect that the purchasing power of his retirement fund does not decrease significantly over time. But here is the problem: while the money he earned over the years does maintain its purchasing power, the goods and services our worker provided during his active life actually disintegrate in time completely. If our hero worked in a car factory, the cars which he made even if not used at all, lose value over time. Partly due to technological progress which makes the old models less desirable, but more importantly, due to the natural aging process (entropy) which makes the car inoperable after a period of 10 to 20 years (even if the car was not used at all during that time). If you are a office worker, the value of your work fades away even quicker than the value of a piece of hardware made in a factory. If you apply that consideration to a whole generation (let's say the baby boomers), you end up with the impossible scenario where that generation accumulated trillions of Dollars in honest money, while the value of the products and services this generation contributed to society during their active years, quickly fades away all the way down to zero. (Houses last on average 50 years, cars 10 years, computers 3 years, software 1 year, drugs 3-5 years, food few days to few weeks etc). Even whole cities, unless maintained constantly, would fall apart within less than 50 years. Indeed, the soon to retire baby boomers have now tremendous claims (fortunately, in form of dishonest Dollars) against the younger generation while the economic values on which these claims are based crumble away like old junk cars.

The phenomenon of inflation is often attributed to fraudelent policies pursued by people in government and banking. Unfortunately, this is not the whole truth. Take a look at oil. Regardless of monetary policy, the price of oil must rise in time in order to reflect the steady depletion of that resource. The price of oldgrown wood must rise simply because there are fewer and fewer old forrests on earth. The price of fish must rise simply because there are fewer fish in the oceans today than just a few years ago. (In case you did not know, 90% of all the fish in the oceans is already gone due to overfishing). I have said enough to make the point: honest money will remain a dream in a world governed by the laws of thermodynamics. The entropy in the real world makes inflation a necessity in the monetary world. The financial world will disintegrate one day for the same reasons the real world is constantly disintegrating.

As a famous Greek philosopher once said, we must think deeply in order to see the full truth. Seeing is knowing. Everything else is only believing. Good luck to you all deep thinkers!
TownCrier
Eurosystem growing in stature, building stronger bonds with Russian Centra Bank
http://www.ecb.int/press/03/pr031013.htmECB Press Release: Signing of a protocol on Central Bank Training in Russia

On 13 October 2003, Dr. Willem F. Duisenberg, President of the European Central Bank, His Excellency Richard Wright, Head of the Delegation of the European Commission in Russia, and Mr. Sergey Ignatiev, Chairman of the Central Bank of Russia, signed a protocol in Moscow welcoming the signing of a contract for a project in Russia entitled "Central Bank Training". .... [a] two-year project, which will be launched on 1 November 2003.

...Specifically, the project seeks to help the CBR enhance its capacity in the field of banking supervision by transferring knowledge relating to sound practices employed by European banking supervisors. The wider objective of this major technical assistance project is to foster the stability of the Russian banking system.

-------(see url)-----

I came across this press release today while I was looking into the weekly consolidated financial statement for the Eurosystem. (btw, there was no material change in the reserve position since last week, no nothing further needs to be said on that account).

I'm passing the press release along because this is apropos to a couple of the recent threads of discussion here, particularly Aristotle's persective taken within the context of "euro for oil" trade talks eminating from Germany and Russia.

In addition to the press release excerpts given above, in introductory remarks offered at the signing yesterday in Moscow, President Duisenberg said:

"It is this vast experience that we wish to share with our Russian counterparts. Sound practices and effective supervision provide a key basis for financial stability and an important platform for the conduct of monetary policy. We have noted with great interest the significant progress made in Russia over the past few years in reforming banking supervision. With this project, the Eurosystem hopes to contribute to further strengthening the CBR's banking supervision function as a key measure to foster a more stable financial environment.

"Let me conclude on the hope that the Eurosystem's involvement in the TACIS project will act as a catalyst for deepening the working relations between our institutions further."

Call Centennial this week for a timely and prudent diversification into gold.

R.
Solomon Weaver
Robert - one gold as "someone's" obligation
Dear Sir Robert

You must pardon me kind Sir, but I have not been reading here regularly enough as of late to see if you are a very recent poster.

Many long time posters (and lurkers) return here often because of the mutual promise we all keep in remaining polite, sound in our reasoning, and "generally" supportive of the value of gold ownership.

We all like a bit of debate at the roundtable, but arguments made from a drunken perspective from consuming too much of one's own mead, tend to leave a bad flavor in the mouth, and spoil the party.

Yesterday is gone, and your post 110337 will, as all others, collect digital dust in the archives...but before it does pass, I might step in and make a few comments:

Firstly, although you mean our kind host no harm, perhaps, I must say that I find your concept distasteful that my "purchase" of gold from him, is nothing but a loan in an asset that "is an obligation from me to my government" and that in this logic, gold is no different than a stock or a bond. In this manner, you are using this forum to publically discredit the trade of the host of this website. If this, kind Sir, is not your personal opinion, but simply a rhetorical viewpoint, it might be best to state it as such.

Secondly, regardless of whether one owns gold, perhaps being an American Citizen creates a certain obligation respective to paying taxes (regardless of domicile), but you have neglected to note that it confers overseas Americans with a certain protected status. Just like the members of this forum ultimately dictate the total quality of dialog here, the quality of the Government of the USA is dictated by taxpaying Americans. Many of the nations where gold ownership remains popular are those in which the citizens still face the prospects of tyranny, even if the tyranny is just a bit of protection racket games played by local organized crime (which the governments claim they would like to do away with). You might take a moment and count the blessings your country offers, and consider that you still do have the "blessing to own" gold as an American, and that under that blessing, you may use Federal Reserve notes which you have "borrowed" from your government, to "buy" examples of such gold, even from our host, just like you might "buy" any number of things which also, unlike property, have no "yearly holding tax" applied.

Third, your fears of a cashless society are predicated on the interpretation that what most Americans find as convenient (digital payment and instant access to credit) is hardly a tradition with most of the other billions of world citizens. If you have lived and travelled amongst these throngs of citizens, you may find it quite perplexing how you may NOT transact with credit instruments for the simple purchase of a coffee or a sandwich (and if you are lucky, an auto teller machine might be had down the street). So, again, t