http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/INTERNET.html
Internet humour

Swing chart updated:
http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/Swea11.gif
Looks explosive short term.

Australian Gov't Y2K info page.
http://www.y2k.gov.au/html/index.html

tolerant1. Thanks. This is a wonderful site with stimulating people. I benefit from the posts and posting sharpens my own thinking. I wish I could spend more time here.

"Mole ( mozel ( Spock money & prospects ) ID#153102: ) ID#34883:
mozel: excellent insightful posts, but I take issue here:
"I believe it is more instructive to note that the artificial and
concept of money enters the world of reality via Sovereignty and the law
of the Sovereign."
I don't believe this is true. Carl Mengers "Origin of Money"
http://www.fame.org/research/library/cm- 001.htm
is what generally refuted the idea that a 'state' or 'monarchy' or
ruling
soveriegn of some sort is required for money to materialize. It is more
an unintended consequence of individuals looking to lower transaction
costs and it evolves with increased trade regardless of governance."

In Mengers context, this is so. But, two developments cause the law of the Sovereign to intrude on the world of Menger money. One is the development of the idea that a tort or wrong to another's person or property ought to be compensated. The second is the idea that promises ( contracts ) ought to be kept and that the debt due from a breach of promise ought to be paid. So in any society with a developed law on the subject of torts and contracts, the law of the sovereign and the artificial concept of money are joined at the hip.

""Fiat currency systems fail because people disobey the law."
I venture to say that it is the exact opposite phenomenon that occurs:
When the law disobeys the people the fiat currency fails."

I would rephrase that to say that when the legislated law is too far at variance with the tacit law of the people, the legislated law will fail because the people will obey the tacit law before the legislated law. In any event fiat currency systems fail because of what people do in self defence.

Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 23:26
Caper ( @ To all ) ID#334174:
You guys know your stuff. Keep enlightening/spreadin the news.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The overwhelming majority of the changing cast of participants
since this forum appeared on the Internet have lost their stuff.

G'Day Mates,

I'm Haggis mate, he told me to say G'Day.

So, what's new?

How do you define a goldmine:

A goldmine is a hole in the ground owned by a liar. There are lots of goldmines in Western Australia.

How many Shellas are out there? G'Day there.

The Economic Timers, Sat Jan 17, 1998
( India )
Asian currencies defensive despite IMF comments
Jacqueline Wong

SINGAPORE 16 JANUARY
ASIAN currencies firmed late today but were crouched in defensive positions,reacting only mutedly to a slew of positive comments from US and IMF officials on the progress of financial reform in Asia.
The Indonesian rupiah and Malaysian ringgit blipped up a fraction, but the underlying tone was fragile, dealers said.

Indonesia's central bank said on Friday the country's gross foreign assets were at $20.39 billion as of January 15, equal to five months of imports, except gas and oil.

Spot rupiah finished in late trade at 8,325/8,625, up from a low of 9,000 and from an opening of 8,700/8,900. Dealers said demand for dollars checked the rupiah's rebound as optimism over Indonesia's fresh commitment to IMF- sponsored economic reforms burned
LESS BRIGHTLY THAN YESTERDAY. ( Caps SDRer )

http://www.economictimes.com/today/17worl1.htm

tzadek- - - - -

.....excellent.....THEY knew this would happen and played
it to the n'th degree, all the while making sure that
the us had more gold stock- piled than any other country...

the us will be in the same position she is in now.......with
the controlling interest ( gold stocks ) , she would contro;l,
as she controls the world now.......hard to believe they
are THAT smart......we'll see.........conspiracies.....

'if i have seen farther than others, it is because i have stood on the- -
- - - - shoulders of giants' sir isaac.....

'the farther backward you can look, the farther forward you can see'
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - winston churchill- - - - - -

cherokee!;- standing- on- the- shoulders- of- giants- - looking- backward- to- see- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - forward.......

Tolerant.
I think we saw the first realizational movements of big money this week.
Soft and hard commodities,
Currencies and bonds.
They are all stirring for a major move.

But I think this move is preliminary.
Positioning for the future.

I feel the real move in these physical assets,
Will come about after a correction.
We are merely seeing the jockeying of positions.

When the air clears,
These assets will out perform paper assets greatly.
IMHO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Accord
No I never saw the interview.

Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 22:24
mozel ( yuan and in defense of America ) ID#153102:

We are saddled with huge, huge debt, including the war debts of our allies, the debts of the world's most expensive arms race, and the debt of the Marshall Plan and foreign aid. Who will come to the aid of the American people to deal with this debt ? And after all this cost, the world is not safe for American ideals and I don't mean demon- cracy.

Mozel- - you got things screwed up. You mention America... It is USofA.
Reference to debts and Allies is also bull shit. Your Federal Reserve ( central bank ) and Corporate USofA, used WWI & WWII to control the world economic order via International Bankers. War is good business. Your reference to the arms race also benefits your federal reserve and Corporate USofA. NOT, the USofA Citizen

You are screwed up also in reference to the "We The People" * Who will come to the aid of the American People* Great question, your USofA has no white knight. No the USofA citizen is in deep shit. Yes, the USofA Corporate agenda is unfolding in Asia, and yes, will be in full glory at your local community, compliments of the USofA Corporate Agenda. Know it, and speak the reality of the situation, The enemy of the world is your USofA Corporate Federal Reserve. The King appointed, is Mr. Greenspan.

What is good for Corporate USofA, is good for "We The People" RIGHT ?
Mushrooms- R- Us ! Take Care, from a Canadian. Candaian debts paid with cash, and lives. And 1998 economic control of a nation that has given into the economic power of Corporate USofA. Big, eat little, eh!

USofA House Committee on Banking and Currency on September 30 1941"
ECCLES was asked by Representative Patman: "How did you get the money to buy those two billion dollars worth of Government securities in 1933 ?
ECCLES: " We created it.
MR. PATMAN: Out of what?
ECCLES: Out of the right to issue credit money.
MR. PATMAN: And there is nothing behind it, is there, except our Government credit?
ECCLES: That is what our money system is. If there were no DEBTS in our money system, there wouldn't be any money."

The Times of India Saturday 17 January 1998
Bank rate, CRR hiked to stem fall of the rupee

FM urges politicians to refrain from `rash comments'

MUMBAI: The Reserve Bank of India on Friday hiked the bank rate and cash reserve ratio ( CRR ) in another package of monetary measures to stem the fall of the rupee against the dollar, which would put pressure on interest rates and rupee liquidity. The RBI package has come in the wake
of the rupee breaching the 40- to- a- dollar mark on Wednesday.

The package, announced after RBI governor Bimal Jalan held a
meeting with finance minister P Chidambaram in New Delhi in the
morning, raises bank rate from 9 per cent to 11 per cent and the
CRR from 10 to 10.5 per cent that will suck out nearly Rs 2,000
crore.

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/17home1.htm

T1/Mozel: Tis said that the motive forces in investing are greed and fear. In politics the dominant motive is a lust for power.

Power is gained, extended and expressed through the use of money. Money that is either disgorged from the hand of its rightful owner OR created out of nothing. Since the prospect of cadging more money through confiscation is slim; it becomes obvious that the extension of political power can only be maintained by creative production.

Given the reality of practical politics in this age; a return to a gold standard or hard money of any variety, it seems to me, is totally out of the realm of possibility. To expect same, is to expect the ruling class to don the mantle of horse collar and bridle. To be reined in by monetary constraints at all those points where political opportunity would seem to be the most opportune. If only they had the money. ....... Not hardly. Ain't gonna happen. ..... Yet.

The reality is that it will take a substantial amount of pain for the entire nation/world, more than has been realized to date, before such is even considered. Much less adopted.

What is really scary are the number of alternate and undesirable paths that will also present, and be considered, as we rediscover the essence of self discipline. No, the issue will not be decided after a good dinner with fine brandy and cigars. It will be forced on political systems. After a great deal of hardship. ...... Hard lessons are never learned easily. Unfortunatel.

Yes. Large money is on the move. Massive amounts of money are swaying to and fro. It is interesting to see them all placing their bets.

One major point left out in my post is that the US is either NO.1 or 2
top world Gold producer and have almost free access to all of Canada's
untapped vast GOLD in the ground. They certainly have planned well.

PS I have been attempting to figure out for some time now where a
unique Indian pure Gold earing with blue and black beeds with attached
gold beat out in the form of feathers, I found on my excursions in
Northern Ontario came from? It contains no solder and appears to be
hundreds of years old. I wondered if you knew whether Idian traders
came up this far? and what tribe it might belong to?

All: I hope I have not caused too much concern among fellow Kitcoites by my attempts to determine whether gold derivatives trading could decouple the dollar price of gold from the physical value of gold. As you probably have noticed, D.A. has made it clear that he thinks the physical gold price has not significantly been affected by derivatives trading. But - - I must admit I did not believe him because I could not quantify just how important gold derivatives trading really is. I think you will see from Frank Venoroso's comments at the Canarc Teleconference Dec 9, 1997, the answer is: not much.

I can also ( I think ) quantify just how much all that derivatives trading conributes to the price of gold, and once and for all dispell any

concerns that ANOTHER may be correct that "paper" gold prices could decouple from physical gold resulting in a traumatic gold spike of hundreds of dollars a day - - something that would probably shut down the world's currency markets if it actually happened. Even us gold bugs would suffer from this kind of gold rally.

The reasoning goes like this: According to F.V., CB gold loans now stand at 8000 tonnes - - about four years of gold production. Total gold options on Comex and OTC total about 4000 tonnes of "paper" gold. FV calculated the "delta" of all these options to be about 1000- 2000 tonnes.

Taking the worst case of 2000 tonnes ( options delta ) , total options activity is 25% or less of this total of gold loans. In reality, physical gold trading activity is probably very significant, so the effect of options trading ( "paper gold" ) on the gold bullion market is probably much less than 25% - - - - QED as the mathematicians say. One comes to the inevitable conclusion that even with the current nearly 2000 tonnes/day of ( total? ) gold trading on the LBMA - - there is no way that ANOTHER could be correct that the gold markets could selfdestruct due to "paper" gold trading.

If the dollar "self destructs" that is another matter, but when the dollar finally fades away as the world's currency, it probably will fall no faster than the rates seen in the typical SEAsian currency collapse. The pound sterling fell when Britain lost currency supremacy to the US, but it did not plummet either. So - - again we find that ANOTHER may be overcalling a "traumatic" rise in the price of gold.

I hope I did not cause too much commotion with my posts yesterday, I truly needed to be convinced with some hard facts not just opinions - - I guess it is just my physics background.

FV's options comments during the Canarc Conference are quoted below:

"Bruce Paid??, Morgan Stanley:

Frank can you quantify, or at least touch on, the role of the options' activity in the gold market and is there any way of getting some kind of a handle as to what this action for position may actually be in the market?

FV: Are you on the gold trading desk?

Bruce: No, I'm not. I just manage private money.

FV: OK, well look, go to your gold trading desk and ask them about this. Once again, we've discussed this in this book. There are 100,000 put options on Comex and 350,000 call options on Comex. What does that tell us? Comex is the tip of the iceberg. The OTC market in gold is 10 times the Comex. We've taken a look at this and we've said, OK, there's a great deal of double counting in all of this. A lot of option exposure is hedged from one dealer to another or on to the Comex and then from the Comex back to the OTC market. What percentage of this grossed up market is the true net position of this market? We did a bunch of calculations and we concluded that the total net face value of these options is about 4,000 tonnes and the delta on these options is probably about 1,000 to 1,800 tonnes. Part of this option position is producer in origin, most of it is central bank in origin. This delta probably accounts for 1,000 to 1,800 tonnes of total gold borrowings which we estimate at about 8,000 tonnes. This option structure provides a certain amount of resistance to the gold price when the gold price rises, but for certain technical reasons, this resistance is only transitory. Basically what happens is that those options are short dated. They soon get re- written. When they get re- written to a higher strike price, this selling pressure that emerges on any rally abates. Options complicate the dynamics of the gold market but they don't really change it. If you talk to your dealers about it, they might agree about this. I've talked to some dealers and they think my estimate of the delta on the total option book of the market of about 1,000/1,800 tonnes is not out of the ballpark. They see their own books. They estimate what percentage of the overall market they are. Then they project from that and come up with a number that's of that magnitude.

BC: So Frank, this is Brad Cooke again. At the outset here today you said that you estimated about half of the difference between gold demand and gold supply is filled by either central bank sales or central bank lending. You also, in your research this year, talked about the slingshot effect on the downside when the shorts get hold of gold and of course on the upside when they cover. You haven't talked about short covering here today. Do you want to say something about that?

FV: Yes. I wrote a piece after we broke in July ( I guess it was around August ) . Basically I thought that the big break that occurred then was due to fund short selling and I'm sure fund short selling was a big contributor to it. The market was supported by physical demand and I believe by some Asian central bank buying. The market then built a base and rallied up to 330. At that particular point in time we had a giant short position in the market. At any other time in history, once you broke above 330 you would've exploded. We broke above 330, we had a huge amount of short covering, literally 500, 700, 800 tonnes in a very short period of time and the market was absolutely contained by central bank selling. The big central bank selling that's probably been the problem late this year hasn't occurred here, but occurred on that rally. What that did was to provide a huge amount of gold to the market that let the shorts out. Then the shorts were free to go short again once the price went down. Once that rally above 330 failed and we started down again, the funds started to go to the short side again. But the market was already saturated with all the central bank gold that was thrown into the teeth of that short selling rally. Now, I'll also say that the central bank selling has persisted, and persisted in a very uncharacteristically savage way. I mean, these guys have been beating up the dealers. This is very unusual. Central banks normally have operated through the BIS. Then selling was done with a great deal of discretion, it was done very cooperatively with dealers. We're hearing stories about dealers taking losses, getting set up by central banks, saying this is how much we're going to sell, there's no more behind it. All of a sudden all the other gold dealers get hit with a couple hundred thousand ounces and the dealer gets bagged. I must say, it's very very uncharacteristic. But, at some point, this large short position will unravel. Whether or not you get the sling shot effect, whether you get a powerful rally or not, will depend upon whether or not there's a very very large volume of central bank selling or producer selling or both into the teeth of the short covering rally. My guess is that, when these big central banks are done, yes, there'll be central banks that will sell into the teeth of that rally, but the quantities will be less. And then the short covering rally that materializes will be substantial. "

6 pak: As usual you're right on. More, your last paragraph should be a permanent display in the masthead of every newspaper and intro of every news outlet in the free/er parts of the world.

The last paragraph of your post is most worrisome to me. Unfortunately was a well chosen way to end the thought.

We must do more to insure that better, fair and honest minds prevail.

Zenophobia... Most of them have no idea we we're in both wars away before them & lost a lot more people per capita.

Before Cherokee corrects me.

mozel ( tolerant1 ) ID#153102:


The separation of reserve currency from national sovereignty
is the key to global currency and trading stability.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You make very interesting points Mr. ( Mozel ) and have looked
into those who have looked deep into root and branch. On the above,
one notes that Argentina and Hong Kong have both as yet escaped
the contagion and both have currency boards; id est; lack
of sovereignty.

In plain talk'm yokel I think what that point is saying is
silver and gold coins jingling in pockets and commonly seen exchanged
over retail counters daily. That is a very hard thing to recall
if the issuers find change of heart. Along with exchangeable paper warehouse receipts that look like the dreaded "dollars". I mean,
let's get realistic.

The path from 'here' to there I don't think is a very realistic
proposition presently, though reduced inflation and deficits is
nearer possibility. Watch that Greenspan. I don't think it would
find receptive ears popularly nor politically. I think certain
Asian ears, NOW, would find receptivity from top to bottom of
the income quintiles. Perhaps some leadership first needs deposing.

Like, you don't miss your water til the well runs dry.
As an aside, stormy as heck on the Oregon coast, power coming
and going as the lines snap together. Heck with it, I'm going
out for some live blues, but oughta be around for 20 mins. or so.

There is also something to be said for all the illegal dollars hiding around the globe. I can assure that these individuals will not get burned by politicians, bankers or anyone else. When they have had time to move their dollars into something else, whatever it may be, then the dollar will burn.

Three Sisters Wilderness, an absolutely lovely place. Last time I was in Oregon I helped out a friend attending the Uof O and filled in for a missing team member in a Rugby match.

The Portland Pigs was the opponent. Two broken fingers and a bruised cheek later I swore up and down I would never do that again. Of course I did, but swilling beer and tequila will do that to dummies like me.

Everyone has knowledge of the debasement of the German Reichmark, the stories about going to the store with a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. How far down the road are we? I am not yet 60 and I remember my grandfather telling me about his life. He was the chief electrician at a paper mill in Wisconsin. Eleven cents per hour. His home cost him Twelve hundred dollars, four bedroom, two- story with full basement. One of the best in town. Today, I saw on CNBC Donald Trump showing off a large high- rise apartment that will rent for One Million per year. CEO's of companies negotiate Fifty Million dollar per year salaries. Babe Ruth sure would like playing ball today at current rates. Somehow I get the feeling its all Monopoly money and our government is really Parker Bros.

JTF: Haruumph! Rank heresy! How dare you careen down the garden path, idly dispelling closely held obsessions in your wake. ...... Devil theories are so much easier to grasp. ie, someone is to blame for our sea of troubles. Eh?

No- - - - - - James- - - - - - - that's- - - - - - - - Xen- - o- - - pho- - - bia- - - - -

All: Some one posted yesterday that the gold rally might correlate with a rise of equities/currencies in SEAsia. It is interesting that F Veneroso thinks that the investors have pushed down some very strong SEAsian currencies too far, and that a rebound might occur very soon. Perhaps this is what is happening right now - - the "January effect" in SEAsia. This bouyant activity might actually push up the US markets in concert for a time - - IMHO.
F Veneroso also said that the US dollar might eventually drop like it did in 1984 because it has been pushed too high by a number of coincident processes that are about to become non- coincident. This is ominous indeed - - if FV is correct - - because the dollar index dropped from about 160 in Jan 1985, to a bottom of approx 83 in 1991. The fall from 160 on Jan 1985 to approx 90 on Oct 1987 was particularly rapid - a 25% per year drop!
During that time gold went from a low of about $300 to about $420 - - and this was well after the great inflation scare of the 70's! The Xau bottomed at 60 Aug 1986, and rose to 155 before plummeting to 90 after black October, 1987.

I wonder, we might be fairly near year 2000 before the US dollar completes its downward cycle from its current lofty peak of 101!
Regardless of what happens, it does appear IMHO that the dollar has peaked, barring a world- wide ( non- US dollar ) financial crisis somwhere.

You bring up a good point. And the Parker Bros. line is still making me chuckle. I believe the apartment you refer to that Donald is trying to rent goes for $100,000.00 per month.

My family did business in Manhattan. One of my favorite buidings which we owned was 116 Central Park South. Fabulous view across 59th street overlooking Central Park. Real Estate in NY City is a joke today. There will be many well dressed paupers soon.

Things are way over priced across the board with the exception of gold and it will soon reach equillibrium. Very soon indeed in my opinion.

thanks tolerant1. mozel ( If your still out there ) "In Mengers context, this is so. But, two developments cause the law of the Sovereign to intrude on the world of

Menger money. One is the development of the idea that a tort or wrong to another's person or property ought to

be compensated. The second is the idea that promises ( contracts ) ought to be kept and that the debt due from

a breach of promise ought to be paid. So in any society with a developed law on the subject of torts and

contracts, the law of the sovereign and the artificial concept of money are joined at the hip.

I don't think that the law of the sovereign and the arificial concept of money follow from this. Money evolves from choosing individuals as does common law. It is not a creation of the sovereign. The artificial concept of money? Why does that necessarly follow?

America gave more than paper to the world in this century. American citizens gave lives and blood. And taxes. The ordinary American is as much in slave labor for the payment of interest on debt as any people on the globe. Defense is not free.

The sense of moral perfection of some Canadians is matchless, but nowhere more matchless than on the subject of America. If the descendants of those who failed to step up to the mark in 1775 ever do apply to get into this Union, I shall vote they shall be admitted to be a county of the State of Massachusetts with Boston as the capital on the grounds the morally perfect deserve no less than the company of the morally sublime.

tolerant1 ( 2BRO2B ) ID#31868:
Three Sisters Wilderness

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Been to the top of Middle Sister, oh, couple decades
ago now, which was a nice, changing view of the North and
South Sister getting there.

The mutts of America pulled the global bacon out of the fire in the forties, this is true for all the world to see.

In addition, while America is credited with "saving" the world, many countries sacrificed their sons and daughters.

I think we should all realize that many, from different countries sacrificed so that our lives might be better.

It is now up to all of us to improve upon the improvements and make this a better world for those as of yet unborn.

Contentment.

All: This book might be very interesting - 250 pages long. Has anyone seen it or know how to get it? Can a mere mortal who cannot afford $8000/yr for a consultant like FV afford this book?

Goodnight all - - and best wishes to Strad Master to a "new model" addition to the world! Strad Master - - you forgot one thing in your physical description: Born - - one unique individual, with personality defined at birth ( probably before birth ) - - no offense Mike Sheller?
My guess from reviewing such things when our two came into the world - - with totally diferent personalities - - about 1/2 of the personality is inborn, and 1/2 is due to the environment the child is in.
By the way - - can you give us the date for the first Violin lesson?
I espically like Aurator's comment regarding your addition to the wind section of the Los Angeles Symphony!

In case you havn't noticed Spud, "Elementally Pure" Silver is NOT what coins are made of, even the 99.9 pure variety. Same goes for electronic components, and attach media.

As to your ill informed remarks re my abilities in "Rocket science". RF hybrid manufacturing techniques have nothing whatsoever in common with semi- conductor manufacturing techniques. Take my word for it, your recommendations based on metallurgical issues in the semiconductor field are laughably academic compared to what we're faced with in the RF, hybrid device world. I won't get into it here, other than to state that I once worked for a Semiconductor equipment manufacturer, ( High density plasma deposition, et al ) . The complexities of that technology are Kindergarten/pre- school in comparison to the compex RF microlelectronic hybrid device world.

The designs I work with are High frequency Amplifiers, Channelizers, down and upconverters, Earth and space antenna's, etc. All designed to operate in extremely harsh environmental conditions of course. ( Though corrosive effects generally cease in space for obvious reasons ) .

A typical hybrid RF amplifier has literally HUNDREDS of semiconductor devices in it of several types, and thousands of Gold, and Silver interconnects. No "dissimilar" metal interconnects would ever be allowed in this business, but again, it'd take a few volumes to describe even ONE of the many dozens of RF hybrid device design types we work on in the satellite biz.

Mozel: Jeez. Patriotism ( jingoism ) as strong as yours marks you as ideal cannon fodder for the US' next excursion into international adventuring. Middle East perhaps? ....... Step right up 'n sign on the dotted line and repeat after me: ....... "I do solemnly swear to preserve, protect and defend ........ the deadbeats, drummers and swine that now infect this once proud nation ...... ..... hell you get the idea.

I'll watch.

Hey, JTF, I liked your post of 00:29.

You kind of backed me up in my believe
that ANOTHER is a very good writer.

Some people also figured it out...

Look for a book or movie with gold/oil story
in the nearest future, with OO7 solving the
next world crisis.

The book can be had from for a pre- release price of $295.00, I think this is for subscribers to Gold Newsletter. You can call 800- 593- 2585 which is the Jefferson Coin & Bullion number, they use the same operators.

Many here suggested when I asked if I should buy it that I purchase bottles of tequila, bourbon and beer, buy a round of gold and take a pass on the offer.

The IMF along with R Rubin and Co. are throwing everything they have at the problems in Asia. I don't think they really grasp the oriental mindset. All the PR they give to the problems and how THEY are going to solve them if everyone just plays ball causes the Asians to lose face. That will come back to them in spades. Never publicly chastise an oriental, they will get even. Maybe even get Camdessus;~ ) Have to go now.

The Top 16 Changes at the White House Now That the Clintons have a Puppy
16 To avoid confusion, staff reverts back to referring to Madelaine Albright by name.
15 New "doggy door" makes it that much easier to sneak out a midnight run to McDonald's.
14 At long last, Bill won't have to flinch *every* time he hears "Bad boy."
13 President no longer the only one accused of burying his bone in someone else's yard.
12 "Bitch" label now somewhat ambiguous.
11 Accusations of crotch- sniffing at the White House no longer automatically implicate the President.
10 New, unwelcome presents under the Christmas tree.
9 Obviously miffed Socks slips Kenneth Starr a note reading "Bil kilt Vyns Fosdr!"
8 Shouts of "Come!" from Lincoln bedroom no longer make Hillary suspicious.
7 Chelsea drops to #2 on the White House Pug- Ugly List.
6 Pipe and slipper retrieval removed from Al Gore's daily to- do list.
5 Roger Clinton no longer the only one to piddle in the Rose Garden.
4 Cries of "What a dog!" no longer make Janet Reno burst into tears at State dinners.
3 To the embarrassment of the trainers, dog still unable to tell Al Gore from a tree.
2 "Get that horny furball off my leg!" no longer refers exclusively to the President.
and the Number 1 Change at the White House Now That the Clintons have a Puppy...
1 Campaign donors staying overnight in the Lincoln Bedroom now find complimentary Tootsie Rolls on their pillows.

Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Charts:
Five Year Chart http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/5969/agpmlt.htm
120 market days Chart http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/5969/agpm120.htm
30 market days Chart http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/5969/agpm30.htm
10 days Hourly Chart http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/5969/agpm70.htm

UP, UP and Away!

Great news, gold has finally turned positive! Up $5.00 today, but have you wondered why ECO dropped 1/2 to 1 and 9/16 ( a whopping 26% loss ) ...to an all time low? It's looks like it's all over for this once darling of the AMEX. Last news was that it was dropped from the S& P 500. They will be following Pegasus into Chapter 11 reorganization soon. Too bad they won't be here for the big gold rally. Watch, when the 1 week Au average breaks the 200 day moving average by more than 10% ...this has been a sure sign for an explosive up on gold stock. Now is the time to load- up. Stay away from Pegasus and Echo Bay they won't recover.

Mole: "Money evolves from choosing individuals as does common law. It is not a creation of the sovereign." .......... You have made a point that cannot be overemphasized. Especially, the second sentence.

What we bear witness to, is an age of communication so enveloping that the people are lead to believe that they actually had some hand in the creation. In reality, most have not the tiniest clue. They are thoughtlessly pleased when their currency may be exchanged for beer and cigarettes. .... But then, so am I.

Priceless!

oris: I have considered that possibility also. ANOTHER has frequently mentioned significant findings in the Oil/gold/dollar relationship right after they were news - - just what an information- gathering novelist would do. However - - I do recall one time when he/she said something that preceeded the actual news, so I am not certain. Coincidence?
If ANOTHER is not what he/she claims to be, he/she has done much researching of the gold markets, as some of what he/she says shows understanding of the big picture. What is interesting is how little is said about the markets, or anything for that matter that is not oil/gold/dollar realated!
My assessment of this matter is that even if ANOTHER is a novelist, I will still read his/her posts with interest, as it makes me think!
Good night Oris, and all!

Earl & James, Thank you for your comments. My material was read, thanks.

Mozel: My comments were directed at your comments, not against your person. Yes, I attacked your position on certain "issues" put forth by your stated comments. Yes, set the record straight, so to speak.

I am sorry, that your depth of understanding of those issues, is such, that you now consider an attack against Canadians is in order. I assure you, that there are Canadians that are in fact, as you project as " Moral perfection of some Canadians" Yes, I am sure that USofA Citizens, are not given blanket support by you, or maybe they are? I am also sorry that you suggest in additional comments, that there is a socialistic bend to Canadians. Well hell, I also have difference of opinion on that subject matter. But, so be it? ( To- days truth, is not tomorrows truth. )

Take Care. Stay on the high side, we are all here trying to get a handle on local and world economic events, and other issues, that will impact each of us, and our loved ones.

IMHO take a peek at IPJ - International Pursuit, TNX - Tan Range Exploration, OROP - Oro Peru, I think these three mining shares will take off in the not too different future.

If you had read all my posts you would know I am no friend to empire or fiat paper and you might have surmised as well that have I my way no offspring of mine will be going to overseas for war even if the Japanese are in Alice Springs and the Germans or Russians are in Coventry and eating French bread.

Re Ramrod comment on Echo Bay

All sportsfans with speadsheet will see that they were

warned off Echo Bay as could not recover at almost ANY

realistic gold price.

Inpathique Analysis which called the Dec 9 low and the Dec 24 high correctly is calling for an immediate and sharp correction which will see the TSE Precious Metals Index correct over 10% by mid February and then shoot up just as fast, but keep on going.
Check the indexes pattern for yourself at http://home.istar.ca/~inpath/project.shtml#itsgl
My ABX chart shows it dropping to a little over $20 before shooting for the stars as well.

Disney is right. ECO is finished. They fired their president, Richard Kraus as president in the spring and have not replaced him. There is no vision left in the company. Their has been an exodus of V.P's out the door. They have closed their Spokane, Vancouver, Santiago, La Paz, exploration offices. The V.P. of Exploration has just been canned. In a mining company...no exploration...no future.

more later.

Mozel: Ciento mucho, Amigo. Right or wrong, I find patriotism of the modern sort to be abhorrent. "Show me a patriot and I'll show you someone who expects to be paid for it". HL Mencken. ........... Patriotic appeals only seem to lead to disaster for the people. To hell with those who make them. I apologize for misconstruing your position.

mozel: I don't think Earl meant it in that way, at least I did not read thus. And I have read all your posts of the last few days and your making some excellent well articulated points. It is a pleasure.
Earl: Am glad when I get the beer also...but sometimes not in the morn.
Now back to gold where economics= = = = = = = = = = = = politics collide.

You may be wrong....you may be right! You may be wrong you may be right.
You may be black you may be white! They put a hot wire to my head, cause of the things I did and said. They made these feelings go away....
May the road rise with you. May the raod rise with you.

John Lydon

For what it is worth. I subscribe to several different newsletters. The call is for deflation, and dramatically altered financial times.

One very strong opinion I have developed from all that I read. Metal is nobody else's promise. When all is said and done it will have value. A great deal of my investments have already been given away.

I can always make money, I fear for those I care deeply about and their ability/inability to make ends meet/meat. Everything they have is in/on paper.

While there is breath I will try, but I fear not having enough to help them all through the obvious troubling times that approach. In addition I am disgusted with our leaders.

One can only try and do the best one is capable of. Such is a life.

I mean get Camdessus, not each other.

Get Camdesuss!

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

A strange gentleman in this group keeps referring to

the US as perhaps the worlds number one gold producer.

It is not !! RSA is the world's number one gold producer

as well as the number one platinum producer. The US is

far behind RSA and about on a par with Australia which

I believe will soon surpass it.

This gentleman then said something like the US had almost

free access to Canada's gold reserves. What does that mean ??

Then he says that the US "planned well" to bring this

about. I guess that he thinks that the US "planned" to set

itself up just a little bit South of the Canadian border.

Keep it up old bean - You have me rolling with laughter.

Oh Sharefin...aren't email jokes great for your humor? Please share
all your email cracks immediately and if witty enough, I'm promise
I;ll take the a goldbug bungee jump of life. Not.

Id they're selling, why shouldn't I. If the real anal Nazi's of the owrld
ain't buying then why are YOU!! Yea big rally about to happen starting in Clevland then moving over to Little Rock. Pass.

You believe that gold will not go up in price? Why?

Gold to $250.... fast!!

If you had to pick one gold stock on the planet ( I know, a rediculous question, humor me. ) which stock would it be.

Looks good on paper but....buyers!!! I think gold if runs to $800 an ounce it'll be the best short that ever existed on the face of the earth!! Kinda like "hey we we're just kidding" SELLLLLLLL!!!!

Mole: Yeah. I agree but at the same we cannot avoid the inextricable link between all three. Foreign affairs ( war ) , economics and politics. The extension of politics requires the availability of mucho dinero and it is the reponsibility of the other two entities to aid in its procurement.

As the result of a post some days back, I am mostly convinced that the US has been very dependent on the existence of tyrants, dictators and other such vermin for the continuation of world's dollar dependency. And that it has been our active intent to insure that a certain number of these esteemed colleagues of our sainted masters are maintained in active status in order to enhance our position in the world.

Cynical view? ..... I find it difficult to believe that S. Hussein could not be taken out during the course of the last unpleasantness. T'would not have made a whole lot of difference in the end. But by keeping him, the US would not have to go to the trouble of doing a lot of data collection on the new stud. ...... Not to mention, of course, that in times of trouble; war is the ultimate public works project. ..... and from B Clinton's generation: "Believe little. Resist much".

There is no there there!! Reffering to LA but could be same thought of gold.

Puts mining a capital intensive industry which is subjected to yoyo metal prices and enviromental interpretation a very difficult pursuit indeed. In the end result, the masters will want all.

tried to eat fried peanut butter and gold sandwhichs one time but even he
couldn't keep them dowm.....Now back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories....

but softare makes a hell of alot more $$$.

$292.....ah comon!!!

Truth.

T1 @01:44: Sound credo. I recently modified personal life choices for, among other reasons, a fear of the effects of the near future on the lives of my children. Sometimes, we do what we must do even though it may be too little .... too late.

May work for some of you...but not all!

Bfiler: So invest in software, already. What the hell's yer point?

gold attracts conspiracy theorists and alternative types. These people
typically have high IQ's but never ever means they can predict the future which they magically think they can. Goodnite!

So that's why I'm not a conspiracy type

is worse than almost any stock page I've ever read.If YOU are so sure about gold...why do you all need such "support" as this page???

Mozel: So in any society with a developed law on the subject of torts and
contracts, the law of the sovereign and the artificial concept of money
are joined at the hip.

Mole: I don't think that the law of the sovereign and the arificial concept of
money follow from this. Money evolves from choosing individuals as does
common law. It is not a creation of the sovereign. The artificial
concept of money? Why does that necessarly follow?

Mozel: It is true that a contract payable in chickens can be litigated without reference to money. Even re- imbursement for a tort or trespass can be made in chickens or indigo or whatever.

The common law, a subject dear to my heart, actually evolved in the tribe of the Anglo- Saxons, was developed and recorded by the King's judges, and spread with English colonization.

I agree individuals work out the problems of exchange better than governments and don't need a state sovereign to do it.

My remarks should have been prefaced as applying to the state of things today. I meant "developed law" to indicate that, but should have said more. The nation state has certainly taken unto itself control of the artificial concept of money with devices like the legal tender law I mentioned. This is the chief obstacle to the return of specie, that is gold and silver coin, as the media of exchange. If contracts in gold cannot be enforced in law, even e- gold cannot get off of the ground. I was trying to elucidate the legal obstacles to specie in the USA and in other countries having legal tender laws.

Somebody made the point that these socialist regimes will not surrender the power fiat currency gives them unless they have to and that a lot of pain will be necessary before the political will and support for specie exists in any country. I agree wholeheartedly.

It's going to be quite a different world when this fiat paper system comes to an end and the American people are left holding the bag

I think the problem here is that you think you have one. Stone cold sober you exist in a deluded no man's land.

Gold will/shall be the only safe haven in which one can freeze what they have.

To say otherwise would be to ignore all the history of the world.

I hope for your sake that you hold some metal in one shape or another.

Because its been going down for 20 years

Does Homestake Mines selling under $1 frighten you. It does me and I see the possibility that it could reach there in April, 1998. Of course, I also see that if that happens within 5 years it could reach $35.

Also, I think government is the enemy of freedom and that this ccurrent paper swindle is for the benefit of them and their friends.

Also I think that government is perpetuated for the benefit of the people receiving government checks ( employees, contractors, program receipients, etc ) .

Also, finally, I think if freedom is to prevail, people need to act individually to prevent government from taking your assets, by whatever means possible. Being patriotic is just a pervision of your instinct to protect your family and tribe.

Night Jeil

I beg to differ. e- gold is an excellent system of payments. I urge you to go to http://www.e- gold.com and read.

When I find something I feel strongly about I try the best I can to get people to listen.

All I ask is that you visit their site.

E- gold is a rock solid alternative to the system of figment standard paper which currently exists. IMHO

Why do you waste your time informing the formless? Surely one such as yourself has better things to do than waste time uncorrupting people that post here for one reason or another.

Even a dog puts down a bone once in a while. Leave this one alone if it does not suit your taste.

Bfiler: Conversely, you appear to need this page to reinforce your own opinion. Again, what's your point?

PS: We're not predicting the future. Merely trying to make sense of what we see.

excuse me, should be http://www.e- gold.com

If you type in the link as I have written it, it shall work, I have tried both of my posts and neither works. Hmmmm, strange indeed.

It still amazes me how people will come into an arena just to go against the grain. It reminds me of the short little guys that have BIG TALL 4X4 trucks. They try to be something they're not. Web sights are a perfect conduit for this, you will have these shy little timid people come out and harass people for any reason, just to feel some sort of power. They seek recognition, even though they make a fool of themselves. To be sure these were the guys who were picked on while growing up. What I have learn if you ignore them and they realize they don't have an audiance they will leave in search for someone who will recognize them.

JTF:When a good writer wants to write a good book,
this writer starts with what is called self- education,
let's say on gold/oil/currencies.

How do you do it ? You go to he library, talk to pros,
or use the NET - fastest way, probably. Kitco site is
good place, I learned a lot from you guys...
Kitco site is a right place to listen to...and to talk
also - you do not learn foreign language w/o trying
to speak this language...

Now, I am touching some of your points:

From time to time each of us can be lucky to be ABSOLUTELY
correct several times in a lifetime, you know...

$280/oz limit ? - several people on this site forecasted
it also, not just ANOTHER. It's also cvery close to the
cost of mining ( production ) , and it's very well know
that cost of production ( in commodities trading ) is
often ( may be always ) a turning point for commodity.

ANOTHER's story is TOO BIG, TOO GLOBAL. It is so global,
that if it was true, it would be revealed from the other
sources. At this time ANOTHER is the ONLY source.

GLOBAL problem which is known only from one source of
information? This is a case of smoke without fire,
this is not good from intellegence point of view.
This is a logical contradiction.

You always need at least two independent sources of info,
to believe that info is probably correct.

ANOTHER's story is so well balanced and so interesting
that it GRABS attention immediately - that is what
a good book ( movie ) is about. No "dry" business.

ANOTHER's style and language is changing pretty often.
Sometimes writers do it to sharpen the language of
their heroes ( heroins ) .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now, we are talking about real huge money here.
Do you really believe that such leak of zillion dollar
information can be left unpunished for so long???
ANOTHER is still alive and well - does not look natural
to me ( sure, I don't want any physical damage to ANOTHER )
Nobody ( interested ) cares to shut him down?..when the whole
zillion dollar game can be spoiled by making it public?
If ANOTHER tries to spoil the game of ANOTHER's "enemies",
appears to be really rich "enemies", ANOTHER would be found
and neutralized a long time ago.

O.K., let's say ANOTHER is a big buyer from "one of
the oil producing counries"... who likes to talk.
ANOTHER is not stupid. So, what is ANOTHER doing now
( or did ) ?

ANOTHER wants us to "spread" extremely favourable rumors
- Gold id going up like crazy - buy gold!!!

But this is a complete nonsense - ANOTHER said before
that problem developed ( for ANOTHER also assuming he/she is
a buyer ) when Asians started to buy more gold
and it ruined the balance. Now, ANOTHER paints the picture
that would add even more buyers ( let's say you and me )
to gold- loving Asians, and balance will be damaged
even more...What's going on - is this a pure charity,
stupidity or what?


It's a story...and I also enjoy reading it...

As usual a clean, clear, summation of that which you encounter.

Mozel: So in any society with a developed law on the subject of torts and
contracts, the law of the sovereign and the artificial concept of money
are joined at the hip.

Mole: I don't think that the law of the sovereign and the arificial concept of
money follow from this. Money evolves from choosing individuals as does
common law. It is not a creation of the sovereign. The artificial
concept of money? Why does that necessarly follow?

Mozel: It is true that a contract payable in chickens can be litigated without reference to money. Even re- imbursement for a tort or trespass can be made in chickens or indigo or whatever.

The common law, a subject dear to my heart, actually evolved in the tribe of the Anglo- Saxons, was developed and recorded by the King's judges, and spread with English colonization.

I agree individuals work out the problems of exchange better than governments and don't need a state sovereign to do it.

My remarks should have been prefaced as applying to the state of things today. I meant "developed law" to indicate that, but should have said more. The nation state has certainly taken unto itself control of the artificial concept of money with devices like the legal tender law I mentioned. This is the chief obstacle to the return of specie, that is gold and silver coin, as the media of exchange. If contracts in gold cannot be enforced in law, even e- gold cannot get off of the ground. I was trying to elucidate the legal obstacles to specie in the USA and in other countries having legal tender laws.

Somebody made the point that these socialist regimes will not surrender the power fiat currency gives them unless they have to and that a lot of pain will be necessary before the political will and support for specie exists in any country. I agree wholeheartedly.

It's going to be quite a different world when this fiat paper system comes to an end and the American people are left holding the bag
Here are some obstacles you may not have considered:

1. If a buyer and seller agree to transact via e- gold, the buyer must pay before receiving goods. Otherwise, the seller asumes the risk that the buyer upon receipt will send legal tender instead of finishing the transaction as promised. If the seller cannot have the law enforce his contract for e- gold, he is stuck with legal tender paper.

2. Because of 1, the e- gold marketplace buyer assumes the risk that the seller will not ship or ship less than promised and will assume the risk of having to go to the law to have re- imbursement. The seller can propose settlement in legal tender and keep the gold.

3. Because of 1 and 2, the e- gold marketplace is less convenient to the legal tender marketplace. The inconvenience will be less for trusted sellers, but those are the very same that have the greatest stake in the legal tender marketplace.

4. Corporations are wholly subject to their creators, the State. They cannot participate in e- gold without permission which the legal tender authorities will never give as it is a shot in the foot.

5. e- gold crypto is not secure from government code breakers so the tax benefit of a secret transaction is not secure. see Orlin Grabbe's discussion on the web.

Bad money drives good out of the marketplace and legal tender has driven out specie. It's a political and legal problem.

Tolerant, K99 is gone, left us without meal, pussycat!

But it looks like we got a substitute tonight - BeeFiler.

Any ideas in regard to menu?

You illustrate many fine opinions well. I invite you to contact;

admin@e- gold.com

voice your opinions. I am sure that you will benefit from the dialogue. Absolutlely certain. Douglas Jackson is the name of the person you will contact.

Quite frankly I would love to be but a mere fly on the wall during your conversations.

I am laughing, lend an ear out the window where ever you may be and hear my chuckles rolling through the flatlands and the reverb off the hillsides.

Perhaps we can roll him in some corn meal, add spices and quickly pan fry in bacon fat for taste and begin the festivities in this manner.

But I fear there is not much meat on that bone, more corn meal perhaps, with a side of tasty spoon bread for filler.

I have not analyzed too many gold stocks, but Newmont appears to be one that will not be driven to the wall by gold shorting.

If I figure out solutions to the obstacles of electronic gold banking, I won't be giving them away to e- gold.

The problems of the Chinese Communist regime are pressing and they are current. I can't see the lure of a payoff from the dollar reserve trading system 5- 10 years in the future figuring in your thinking when your problem is surviving for the next two years.

I think they will do it ( break the HK dollar and maybe devalue the yen ) , but in such a way as to present an innocent face to the West.

Yup, looks like we got a really skiny short seller
to deal with. Looks more like a jerky to me. Still
liver should be eatable all right...

Tongue must be marinated of course, stinks even worse
than K's tongue. But I'll do it in the name of all good
guys on this site - thank God, I got enough vodka yet...

Holy Cow, may be we can use it as a bait to get something
better, I mean bigger?

BTW, thanks for your reply to my post to JTF,.

The dollar will be devalued.

Hmmm, Homestake, Hmmmm, I think there are better seeds in the garden.

Relating to e- gold. Hmmmm. My suggestion to you is still this. Contact them, you will enjoy the conversation, and I think you will be surprised at the forward thinking there. They are further along than you might imagine.

I will say this, your conversation this evening and the thoughts of others helps expand my thinking beyond my self imposed fences.

Quite welcome. I consider JTF to be a field of curiosity, and steadfast question- er of many things. Good mind there. Very good mind there.

I truly appreciate this forum, hopefully it makes people think. Strad has a new s m all, by the grace of God this world will be a better place for one so little and innocent to grow up in.

What major currency will the dollar be devalued against ?

The Japanese have not begun to talk about the kind of government spending that is needed to restart their dead economic miracle. Red ink will flow and the yen won't rise on that.

And isn't the potential increase in the size of the Asian blackhole from Red Chinese devaluation, pre- condition to dollar devaluation.

The East is Red and that's the major fact I see of the day.

BTW what are these better mining company investments ?

http://www.pei- intl.com/Research/ECONOMY/PPRCHSE1.HTM

http://www.e& #045gold.com
http://www.e& #138gold.com
http://www.e& #151gold.com
http://www.e& #173gold.com
http://www.e- gold.com

http://www.e\\- gold.com
http://www.e\\- gold.com
http://www.e\\\- gold.com

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/finan.htm

then...........

The Paper Chase - Gold & Paper Money, Princeton Economics Institute

The one of the biggest problem with Another is motive to me.

As you would have it he is a writer that camps out at sights and dreams up a story line, if in fact he is a writer, he would of spent a great deal of time just to pull a spoof. An inventive spoof it would be also, because the relations that he has came up with did not come from people of this sight, gold oil relationship came with him. For a person to take as much time and effort to minipulate a select few seems odd to me. To be sure their are stranger things that have happened. But this is not something that was made up on the fly, because it is too consistant. There is an agenda to be sure but, testing out a screen play or novel seems alittle to for of a reach to me. If it is, the story was written in completion before posts, and happened to time it with the currencies devaluations.

I would suggest there is a motive , I would accept a novalist theory over the humanitarian theory, but the timing of events and how they played into the story is too much of an coincendence! Need to go back and check date and time on posts too see if he predicted currency crisis or reported it.

Hmmm. What you say is true relative to the devaluation of the dollar. As I stated earlier I am not that well versed, educated, etc. in terms of economic science. My gut tells me that the US dollar must come down from the top of the financial totem poll. If it does not and they try to maintain the illusion the depression will be more a horror than nightmare.

John Disney could most certainly provide a better answer as to these "better" mining investments. John is a studios fellow, and his opinions are backed by a solid understanding of the facts.

IMHO I believe that OROP, TNX, IPJ, LLL, ASM, METLF will all prove to be better percentage winners.

My personal favorite is TNX, I think that the property they own will end up being a larger find than Sutton. Much larger.

OROP is grossly undervalued as is METLF, IPJ and ASM. LLL is a small producer waiting to be found by the markets, and they have a fabulous environmental record to their credit.

Vronsky: you should have a link from your website to this one:
http://www.pei- intl.com/Research/ECONOMY/PPRCHSE1.HTM

I was hoping to catch you posting today, was wondering if you drop me an Email wish to discuss a matter privately. Thankyou

refer@televar.com

A good evening and sweet dreams to all of you and your loved ones.

Get Camdesuss!

http://'www.e- gold.com'
http://"www.e- gold.com"
http://www.e'- 'gold.com
http://www.e"- "gold.com
' http://www.e- gold.com'
" http://www.e- gold.com"

http://www.pei- intl.com/Research/ECONOMY/PPRCHSE1.HTM
remove the space after: pei-

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/finan.htm

then...........

The Paper Chase - Gold & Paper Money, Princeton Economics Institute

" But everyone overlooked a vital point. The U.S. had managed to stay out
of the war ( WW II ) long enough to produce weapons and parts for Europe. For its services, the U.S. was handsomely paid in gold. By the end of the war, the United States had emerged with 71% of the world's gold reserves. But everyone looked at the dollar as the bulwark within the international
monetary structure, when it was this posession of 71% of the world's
gold, which had provided that level of international respect for the
dollar. Economists and government officials viewed the dollar which was
strong and almighty in a war ravaged world. But with hindsight, as is
often the case, it is clear that it was Fort Knox which provided the
strength behind the paper mirage. Once the gold backing was closed in
1971, the dollar fell substantially in international respect and
purchasing power".

G'Day Mate,

Are you trying to tell everyone you're in therapy?

Your probably correct - the best way to announce it is on the Internet!

We understand..........

Aye, Haggis

Armstrong's article gives the wrong impression about money in America from the time of Independence until the War of Northern Aggression. The dollar is a unit of measure and it was an amount of silver by weight and fineness in the first Coinage Act of the US Congress. In fact, money was specie in the period from Indepenmdence until 1860 and most importantly it was specie in the law. The legal tender cases and the legal blessing for federal "bills of credit" did not occur until after the War and in the first case heard, the Chase Court declared it unconstitutional. It was only after Grant packed the Court with two railroad corporation attorneys that Legal Tender became the law and the floodgates were opened for federal "bills of credit".

Most Americans don't realize it, but FDR and the New Deal collateralized the debt behind his new greenbacks in 1933 with the land of the people. Government has a legal interest in their property that almost no Americans are aware of. It was a reprise of the colonial loan offices lending on land on a national scale. When it hits the fan here, it's going to be bigtime. Government even has a legal interest in people's cars.

Armstrong also omits that it was a french loan of livre ( gold ) which sustained the Revolution. And to read him you would never imagine the government under the frugal management of Jefferson had the resources to buy Louisian from the French on a balanced budget and without a public debt ( repealed the tax on whiskey, too ) . He is also silent on the Bank of the United States and struggle between the States and the federal for the power to charter banks, a struggle that was one of the reasons the Southern States seceded. But, he mostly gets it right and I appreciate your posting.

The saddest aspect of the Pegasus collapse is that it indicates concretely the inflexible nature of the bankers who have financed the industry in the past. This inflexibility stems from their categorical belief that gold is a doomed commodity destined for the trash bin of history. They see no sustainable upside and so it is not too difficult for them to pull the plug. I am sure that, if it were possible do so, most of the bankers who already have funds committed to the gold industry would withdraw every single dime...whether you're speaking of Pegasus,
Homestake, Barrick or Newmont...the entire industry is anathema to the banks today...that is part of the New Paradigm, i.e, gold is SH__T.

As an active investor in the industry, you learn that you win some and you lose some. The losses are always disconcerting and you always hope the winners make up for the losers.

But I still love risk...It invigorates me...and there is nothing like contrarian risk...and the rush you get when you know that you are part of the 2% of the population that gets the big score!

In fact, it is "gold- bug rush" that I am describing. Anybody who is actively invested in gold is a peripherhal lunatic, a contrarian, and a member of a dwindling minority. AND DON'T YOU JUST LOVE IT!!

There are several gold investors who are gloating over Pegasus' failure.
That is a mistake and I have spoken about this in the past. The single greatest weakness in this particular industry today is its factionalization and failure to unite, such that the strong shore up the weak. In one sense, that is no surprise because if you look at the history of gold explorers, they always have been independent loners...each frontiersman went out into the great wild on a conviction that only he really knew where the big score existed. Individuality, not collectivism, runs in the blood of the gold producers.

It is a shame that another gold producer did not come to Pegasus' aid. It is a shame that gold producers do not more actively co- operate ( like OPEC producers ) . Because when companies like Pegasus fail, it creates a
contagion that may spread to stronger producers. Just look at how Pego's failure infected the performance of Echo Bay stock today! On Tuesday, it may be Barrick stock taking a huge dive...because as we learned from the Bre- X collapse, many investors do not bother to discriminate between the "good" producers and the bad. They react with emotion rather than intellect.

Moreover, a significant gold producer bankruptcy is bound to create even greater stigma toward the industry and make it much harder for others - - no matter what their financial shape - - to obtain funds.

Again, I advocate that, if any of this preceding message makes sense to you, then go disseminate it to significant players in the industry. Go make a difference.

And for those who lost out in today's developments...do not be discouraged...pick yourself off the ground, dance a little, write a poem, and look forward to the next big score!!

YOU KNOW IT'S COMING!!

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ron/alien/main_archive/a_upto_i/committe.300.txt

Rule Britannia......

You obviously are one of the Yuppie types who drives a 4 wheeler, [ so you can see above everyone] who is being led by the "in" crowd which
buys "the market" because "this time it's different." Well; son, we shell
see ....if those fail to read history are doomed to repeat it. Please continue to buy MSFT, and the rest of sillycon valley and see who has more fun next year at this time. Now I will ignore you and you will go away.

It is a carve up.

It will be interesting to see who ends up with the gold projects. Some of them are very good: in particular the 20% stake in Intermin resource Corportation here in Kalgoorlie, and the Panama project.

Get the drift............

Gold mining is difficult, especially open pit mining. The "margin" between profit and loss is 0.2 to 0.3 g/t. One gram per tonne is a match head in a tonne of rock.......think about it.

Check out my posting on GOLDSTREAM MINING and their JV with Minorco/Anglo American........posted yesterday.

You cannie win them all................

Aye, Haggis

tolerant1 ( mozel )

Relating to e- gold.



They are further along than you might imagine.

SEE WHAT I MEAN ABOUT UNGRATEFUL ALLIES???

ARXEHOLE YOU DEFILE THE MEMORIES OF MY FAMILY WHO FOUGHT AND DIED ALONGSIDE MEN WHO KILLED MEN BETTER THAN YOU

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 01:30
mozel ( Earl ) ID#153102:If you had read all my posts you would know I am no friend to empire or fiat paper and you might have surmised as well that have my way no offspring of mine will be going to overseas for war evenif the Japanese are in Alice Springs and the Germans or Russians are in Coventry and eating French bread

I cannot honestly say that I know a great deal concerning American monetary history.

What I found interesting in the said article was the accumulation of gold during and after WW II, and the ongoing apparent historical repetition of boom- bust.

The present scenario is that the US owes US$4 trillion to someone and/or groups - surely not itself - who???

The other interesting scenario is how does gold fit into this debt scenario, as it must some where?!

Any ideas?

And to save you all the trouble of complaining about my last post, may I present My complaint about Aurator courtesy of

http://www- csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint

My complaint about Aurator!

This is an open letter, which you are welcome to use as you wish. I want as many people as possible to know that Aurator can't discuss anything without talking about separatism. Permit me this forum to rant. At first, he just wanted to convince innocent children to follow a path that leads only to a life of crime, disappointment, and destruction. Then, Aurator tried to reduce history to an overdetermined, wireframe sketch of what are, in reality, complex, dynamic events. Who knows what he'll do next? Assume for a moment that this serves as a reminder that the viperine fanaticism in his "compromises" is not always explicit. It therefore follows that it is naive to think that he wouldn't support international crime while purporting to oppose it if he got the chance. It's not just the lunatic fringe that's in his corner; a number of previously- respectable people have recently begun backing Aurator. It does not require a Sherlock Holmes to prove that a careful appraisal of his viewpoints raises some thought- provoking issues. This is not rhetoric. This is reality. I consider his reinterpretations of historic events antithetical to my principles as a person concerned for the good of all. Call me old- fashioned, but he sees life as a raving reprehensible game without any rules. Given Aurator's current mindset, even Aurator's most recalcitrant backers are trained in the use of force, deadly force, advanced weaponry, and offensive and defensive tactics. It would be a semantic quibble to deny that Aurator's true colors have finally come out. We ought to teach Aurator a lesson.!

His ideologies appeal to people who are fearful about the world's political and economic situation and long for simple solutions to complex problems. Some people consider his assertions a necessary evil, but the truth is that his fixation with callous discourteous louts is superficial. But I digress. To ignore this issue is to create an atmosphere that may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which, at the same time, will pose the gravest of human threats. Permitting sententious thieves to take rights away from individuals whom only he perceives as self- pitying is tantamount to suicide. Worse yet, Aurator wants to lead people towards iniquity and sin. Actually, people should just treat each other with decency and respect. Others have stated it much more eloquently than I, but we're all in this mess together. Viewing all this from a higher vantage point, we can see that each liberated mind that examines all of the evidence is a break in the chains that bind us all. Aurator has been, still is, and always will remain more obstinate than macabre scum. That proves that Aurator's ramblings remain opaque to many observers who dismiss Aurator on the basis of his scummy perversions and general lunacy.!

As commonly encountered, twisted good- for- nothings lack any of the qualities that mark the civilized person, like courage, dignity, incorruptibility, ease, and confidence. His schemes have no basis in science or in human experience. Instead, they consist of pernicious complaints derived from a world view rooted in neurotic ethically- bankrupt sexism. Not only have semi- intelligible insurrectionists decided to glorify their declamations by dressing them up as moral and righteous prerogatives, but their pranks are being debated as though they were actually reasonable. I find Aurator's perorations rather odious, don't you? Does Aurator realize he's more materialistic than most deceitful hermits? We all need to be aware of each other's existence as intelligent, feeling, human beings, even if some of us are uncouth huffy party animals. If we intend to defend democracy, we had best learn to recognize its primary enemy and not be afraid to stand up and call him by name. That name is Aurator.





HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The 4, maybe 5.5 trillion is owed to those who hold our debt instruments. Number 1 is BOJ est. 1.6 tril.

Haagis_A:
Thank you for your wonderful post......5:09
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ron/alien/main_archive/a_upto_i/committe.300.txt

"......The IMF held a meeting in Hong Kong a few years ago
which was attended by a colleague of mine and he told me the
seminar dealt with this very question. He informed me that the
IMF agents told the meeting that they could literally cause a run
on any country's currency, using narco- dollars, which would
precipitate a flight of capital. Rainer- Gut, a Credit Suisse del-
egate and member of the Committee of 300, said he foresaw a
situation where national credit and national financing would be
under one umbrella organization by the turn of the century.
While Rainer- Gut did not spell it out, everybody at the seminar
knew exactly what he was talking about....."

"Anybody who is actively invested in gold is a peripherhal lunatic, a
contrarian, and a member of a dwindling minority. AND DON'T YOU JUST
LOVE IT!!"

........What do you think I am. Born, raised and educated in Glasgow, 10 years in Africa, 12 in outback Australia - working in GOLD exploration and mining............STRUTH...........

As they say back home - when they made the bread, they missed out the flour! Self confessed !!!!!!!!!!!!

Ayeeeeeeeee.............

Haggis, just as long as you're not half baked like some of our friends here.

What's the difference between government bonds and men?

Bonds Mature.

Two more hours, and another dirty night shift is over!
Made up my mind, when gold hits $6000oz, I'll never
work another night.

Fully baked, have spent a long time out in the sun!!!!!!!!!

Ziva
very good,...that joke first posted at kitco Date: Sun May 11 1997 17:25 Patti ( @"not a blonde" ) :

now, what are you going to ADD to kitco, amigo?

not a pimple. right?

US debt is US$ 5.5 trillion, gross
US assets are US$ 1.3 trillion, gross

so, after the farm is sold, the US still owes US$ 4.1 trillion.......

Perhaps you should get some Scotsmen into running your country????

Ayeeeeeeeee..........

Ersel:My husband is out on a "business trip" ( with his girlfriend ) ,
and I am just sitting here at home, waiting for an inspiring post from Oldman or Mike sheller.
I hope I will be lucky this weekend.

It would appear that the US$ is now a currency of convenience ?!

Ziva

just waiting to take without giving? gorgeous sweetheart.

Considering Lend Lease involved no gold, I don't know how this gold accumulation occured. Whose gold was it ? After WWI, the Brits were broke. Japan was on a gold basis before WWII ( 1930 ) I understand. Maybe, a lot of it was Japanese gold. It would be informative to see the breakdown of gold accumulation by year and source.

The only country that paid its WWII war debt to the US so far as I know was Finland. Everything else was just put on the American taxpayer. The fact is the unfunded liabilities of the US government are on the order of 15- 20 Trillion dollars. The number they use for national debt purposes is about 5.3 trillion. 5% or less of the debt is held by citizens. A good deal of it is held by foreign governments. About two trillion has been "borrowed" from the social security so- called trust fund. Ponzi. There's going to be a lot of pain when this bubble pops.

Their is a major movement toward cashless transactions, biometric id money cards, and a total disconnect of money from anything tangible. This is what some call the NWO game plan. There would be no income and transaction possible without the taxing bastards knowing about it. The model is the credit card. Visa and Master Card are providing "expertise". In fact, there was a big squabble when one of them got cut out of a deal that surfaced what's going on behind the scenes. If this comes to pass, you and I will be slave labor for world socialism and the UN won't even have to go to the expense of building labor camps. A fiat reserve world trading currency is central to this. This is the bottom line for the hidden war on gold. Gold is indigestible to world socialism. You may recall what Lenin said about gold and urinals.

All of these fiat currencies are debt. You can never pay off debt with debt. If they let gold rise in price to the point where it equals the debt, they will just start borrowing again. Maybe that's what they will be forced to do. It would buy them time to put their one world socialst currency system via the credit card in place which is their primary goal. Personally, I would rather everything went to hell than to see that happen.

John Disney__A ( Echo Bay ) ID#24135:
Re Ramrod comment on Echo Bay

All sportsfans with spreadsheet will see that they were
warned off Echo Bay as could not recover at almost ANY
realistic gold price.



*******************************************


Spreadsheets, ok. Make that John, not Walt Disney.
Thank you for your sound advice for a quite some time
Mr. Disney. You have invariably brought your homework
to the table and shared it freely.

The Toronto Stock Exchange's influential gold group
has enjoyed an impressive 12 percent jump this week.

Mornin 'you all'......

I'm god- damn impressed mate~~~~~~~~~~~

mozel: There is one more option,
my womans intuition tell me that soon
we will see the words "debt moratorium"
become a regular part of the political nomenclature in Asia.

Infact, he died in Hairmyers Hospital, East Kilbride in Scotland.

GOLD, it is already utilised by the Central Banks as an instrument of power, and has been for a longgggggg time. They control the price day by day, year by year. It is already a Cartel. In the majority of cases, within a given country most/all gold is purchased by a Government at "market" prices.

International trade can effectively only take place using gold as a standard. The key issue is to get the Japanese and Chinese onto that standard. Barter is not the way to go.

Gold exploration and mining booms still occur, but not everyone can directly participate, but most can indirectly via shares. At this point in time not alot of "non- gold" people want to participate.

Gold.......you still have a choice dependent upon where and how you live.

Fiat Currencies....... most people do not have a choice, and have to use them.

LkA

Infact, he died in Hairmyers Hospital, East Kilbride in Scotland.

GOLD, it is already utilised by the Central Banks as an instrument of power, and has been for a longgggggg time. They control the price day by day, year by year. It is already a Cartel. In the majority of cases, within a given country most/all gold is purchased by a Government at "market" prices.

International trade can effectively only take place using gold as a standard. The key issue is to get the Japanese and Chinese onto that standard. Barter is not the way to go.

Gold exploration and mining booms still occur, but not everyone can directly participate, but most can indirectly via shares. At this point in time not alot of "non- gold" people want to participate.

Gold.......you still have a choice dependent upon where and how you live.

Fiat Currencies....... most people do not have a choice, and have to use them.

GOLD is rare.

Who plays Chess.

The fact is the unfunded liabilities of the US government are on the
order of 15- 20 Trillion dollars.

"There are few more impressive sights in the world than a Scotsman on
the make."

Aye, Haggis

NO, I DID NOT COPY IT FROM KITCO !!!

I found it on this website:
http://rrnet.com/~grimmy/4women.html

The Ultimate Jokes Page
Jokes For Women Only!!

What's the difference between government bonds and men?
Bonds Mature.

What did God say after creating man?
I can do better.

Who's the most confused person in the world today?

A gold derivatives trader who expects the gold price to drop below the BIS ( Bank of International Settlements ) book price, and who is presently in a VERY SHORT position!

It is certainly not an experienced GOLD GEOLOGIST!

Which one are you????

If only Kitco was one of the Chaps clubs in London.

Women having their own URL Joke sites, what is coming next !!!!!!!!

OK, I m going to sleep.
Wake me up if Oldman or Mike Sheller post something.
Good Night.

Did your mother never give you advice?

"Never flirt with a KITCO man, they are only after one thing:
Either you or your GOLD".

Do you have any GOLD?

Aye............

Morning Ted: Watch yourself today. Never know who may be peeking around your box of corn flakes- - your ISP has 2 customers...

Amazin ain't it!....Still havin a hard time with the french but I guess I'll muddle through...somehow...Some good 'stuff' in this week's issue of Barrons ( you read it? ) ....I think Flutie made a BIG mistake by leavin yer hometown ( what think you? )

And installment # 1 is out in today's issue~~~~~~~

Ted: Many things about Flutie going to the Buffalo NFL team. First he is a big loss to the CFL but will be replaced by someone else within a week or 2 of the next season. But the problem he will face first is not that he too short to play in the NFL- - he does not have a good arm- - probably no better than Steve Yonge's arm. At 35, 5' 10", smaller field, no yard between O and D lines, Buffalo with a no Offensive line ( terror seen in the eyes of the 2 QB's they had last year ) - - he is in danger of becoming the McClean Stephenson of the Canadian Football League- - leaving a major success to succeed in oblivion. On the other hand he won every game he started in the NFL - 8 - which is more than Buffalo won last year I believe. Oh yes and he will make about 3 times the gold - - if he survives.

Yer 'killin' me man....Where ya gettin this 'sh!t' or is it just au natural??

Chess is a mind game played between two players on a small ( 8x8 ) board. ( btw, I do ... or rather ... used to play the game )

The game with fiat currency is on a much bigger scale and with a heck of a lot more at stake.

this url was posted earlier but it's worth repeating:

http://www.pei- intl.com/Research/ECONOMY/PPRCHSE1.HTM

( and remove the space after the "- " ) - Bart . go check the cgi- parser, willya?

A GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD... Implemented by the Japanese

IS IT Financial Fairy- tale or Expedient Global Monetary Necessity: A Global Gold Standard?! STARTLING IMF ( International Monetary Fund ) data demonstrate its feasibility. The Bank of Japan's T- Bond holdings is the keystone for success.

The above statement is the considered opinion of the ORACLE in his GOLD- EAGLE post in mid- 1997. Subsequent events in the international currency world, and statements by very important Japanese politicians, including Prime Minister Hashimoto, lend credence to the growing possibility of a GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD. In further support of this hypothesis is the December 1997 statement by a well- respected Japanese news agency. Verbatim excerpts follow.

BEHIND HASHIMOTO'S REMARK ON DUMPING U.S. TREASURIES

JAPAN ECHO Vol. 24, December 1997 by TAKAO Yoshikazu


HASHIMOTO'S BOMBSHELL STATEMENT

Hashimoto had been delivering an address at Columbia University on June 23. Fielding questions, he was asked by the manager of a hedge fund what he thought about U.S. government bonds held in Japan's foreign- currency reserves losing value owing to a rising yen and falling dollar. Hashimoto replied that Japan had been "tempted to sell U.S. Treasuries and buy gold" on a number of occasions, such as when he was wrangling over autos with former U.S. Trade Representative Mickey Kantor. He added that the temptation also arose when Americans focused their eyes inward,
demonstrating little interest in the outlook for exchange rates and the value of the dollar as the world's key currency.

This was, of course, an impromptu comment in a question- and- answer session, and reportedly it was delivered in a jocular manner. But it nonetheless had an official ring because it came from the lips of a prime minister who was speaking in a public place.
Under what conditions might a foreign government begin selling off U.S. Treasuries?

Two basic scenarios can be postulated. First, a country whose currency is falling against the dollar may try to arrest the slide through intervention in currency markets using dollars obtained through their sale. This presents no particular problem; in fact,
foreign- currency reserves are accumulated for just such a use. The second scenario is closer to the situation in which Japan found itself in the spring of 1995. That is, if a country sees its currency rise against the dollar, and if it suspects that the United States is deliberately maneuvering to keep the dollar cheap, it may sell U.S. government bonds in retaliation. As an economic policy, of course, this makes no sense. When the yen is strong and the dollar weak, money flows into Japan on a net basis, and Tokyo should hold on to dollars in cash or use them to buy Treasuries instead of selling them. If it nonetheless sold them, this could only be an act of revenge.

THE WEIGHT OF GOLD

Although the prime minister never said anything about a gold standard, it is conceivable that if U.S. Treasuries were ever sold, gold would be purchased as a substitute, as I remarked earlier. But any attempt to construct a new monetary system
backed by gold would deliver a blow to the U.S. monetary strategy and also cause the price of gold to spiral upward. As gold became more expensive, the dollar would be likely to get cheaper. The falling dollar would then drive up U.S. prices and force hikes
in interest rates. America would be thrown into confusion, and its stock prices would come crashing down.

Japan is now in the midst of a reform of its financial system that will bring it into line with Anglo- American standards and introduce American- style market principles. Big Bang will get off to a start in April 1998 with the liberalization of foreign- exchange controls and will include many more specific measures now being worked out. Should the U.S. bubble happen to collapse while this reform is in progress, the impact would hit Japan more directly than ever before. Hashimoto's off- the- cuff remark, which itself could shake the foundation of the dollar standard, happened to score a direct hit on the delicate mechanism of skyrocketing U.S. stock prices and the risk that they will suddenly nose- dive.

Given the monetary history of the world, the convertibility of currencies into gold cannot be treated lightly. The significance of gold is too weighty for that.

Translated from "Hashiry 'Bei kokusai hatsugen' no shin'i," in Voice, September 1997, pp. 12029; slightly abridged. ( Courtesy of PHP Institute ) - - - - - - - - - - - -

Stark testament to the feasibility of the observations made above by the Nippon News source is the perceptive ORACLE report, A GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD - The ORACLE report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

I agree,he'll be richer but if he doesn't survive,what good is the extra 'gold'??...Still ( bein a CFL fan ) it bothers me and it's kinda like Can.doctors ( at least from the Maritimes ) headin ta the states to join the 'greed game' in the U.S.of A....Still remember watchin him throw that 'hail- Mary' pass in the bowl game for B.C and just that thought makes me feel .....suddenly OLD...35 WOW~~~~~~Guess Darrin will stay..eh

Ted: Flutie isn't the only one who is suddenly old. Darrin may leave if Doug needs a valet.

Time for the 'daily workout'....... ( wearin steel- toed boots+ Sony Walkman ) ....bbl- - - - - - - and then it's time for 'The Captain'!!

Got some relatives 'over there'- - - - - Balfour~~~~bbl

Ted: After working for 30 years in the hospital system of Toronto and teaching at the Univ of Toronto Medical school I have some insight into the Physicians leaving for the US. It is Socialized medicine saving itself for the moment. The U of T graduates about 100 more physicians than can be accommodated by the medical system in Ontario. So new graduates can not work in the system unless they leave the major cities and start treating the hinterlands. You can't bill patients here directly so you are either in the system or out of work. Most did not go to medical school to work in the boonies so they head for the US. The result is the medical- educational system has enough students to keep it alive and well but the excess product does not constitute a burden to the tax payers who support it. The best students get the jobs and the others get exported. Sort of like the US gov propping up Chrysler when it was producing cars the market couldn't use and wouldn't run well anyway. No Iacocca around taking credit for it though.

BLACK GOLD - 1998 Crude Oil Forecast

Crude Oil - The price of crude oil is likely to continue its slide well into spring months as U.S. demand remains low and the glut of crude oil of the world market swells. Prices could easily drop to 1994 levels- - around $12.50 for Arab Light - - before turning around.

What all of this figuring comes down to is that market gasoline prices are driven by the spot price of gasoline and today's cost of crude oil. But the market price of gasoline bears no relation to the refiner's actual costs or profits.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

LGB rambles:

"In case you havn't noticed Spud, "Elementally Pure" Silver is NOT what coins are made of, even the 99.9 pure variety. Same goes for electronic components, and attach media."

Spud reminds illiterate LGB:

Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 20:31
Spud Master ( LGB - read more carefully next time... ) ID#273112:
Elementally pure silver ... [The] corrosion these chaps are describing sounds like electrochemical corrosion ( 'galvanic' corrosion )
from the dissimilar metals ( the Ag/Cu coin alloy ) in contact with an electrolyte ( normal air + moisture + ambient
salts ) . ]

LGB,
#1 Please take the time to read posts.
#2 Engage brain.
#3 Type Kitco post.

thank you,
Spud

I have several pieces of metal. Some alloyed and joined for operational purposes. Perhaps Bfiler is secretly longing for the courage to take a taste of a 357 or a 12 gauge ( #4Buck ) , or even a 1903 A3 '03 Springfiel w/ sniper scope mounted.
Granted the latter is rather long for suicide, but am sure a person so erudite and bright and capable could find a way.
Aw Shycks! Bfiler, jis go 'n' git a water pistol and douche your right ear. Should solve the problem and make life in your residence more bearable for the other occupants, whatever they be!

"What's all this sentimental stuff about John Glenn? ) ID#345321:
He hasn't done a da*n thing for the space program since he left back in the 60's. Since then he has been padding his wallet with the rest of the politicans. If you want a coin to fly, send it to me and I'll get it on board."

Glenn going back into space on the shuttle ( @$10,000/pound ) is pure payola from NASA for his support in Congress. There are probably, oh, 30 or 40 thousand Americans better qualified. The clap- trap about "how we will benefit from the effects of a geriatric ( sp? ) in space and life- prolongevity" is smoke & BS. Glenn just wants to go into space again. So do a lot of DESERVING Americans. Drop the smoke- screen Gleen - just be honest.

But, if we are going to use such effete logic, how about the following:

#1 We should send a Gay/Lesbian into space to study the effects of wieghtlessness on homosexuality and safe sex ( can ordinary condoms be used in zero- g? ) .

#2 We should send terminally ill patients into space to study the effects of micro- g environment on the dying. Perhaps life- extension knowledge will be gained. For example, effects of high- g re- enntry forces on the terminally ill as Space Shuttle pilot.

#3 We should send new- born babies into space to establish an even better baseline for effects of space on humans ( after all, the Glenn baseline starts at age 33 or so ) . Also, to test the effectiveness of NASA designed recyclable diapers, and UV- resistant baby formula. Does anyone think we aren't going to have to change diapers in space?

#4 We should send the dead into space, to test long term effects of exposure to micro- gravity & and hard vacuum. Also, mortuary experts should go up on the same mission to test & perfect zero- g embalming techniques. Does anyone think we aren't going to have people die in space?

#5 We should send pseudo- goldbugs into space, to test the effect of involuntary "spacing" on their veracity. Several politicians should also fly on this mission, which will test "Depends" incontinence capability in zero- g.

What a pile of ( deleted ) NASA has degenerated into. Once, we built star- ships and dreamed of other worlds. Now, twelve years and twelve billion dollars latter we can't even get a gold- plated space station in orbit. ( obligatory reference to gold in last sentence ) .

http://umbra.nascom.nasa.gov/images/latest.html
Something is brewing.
Expect incoming solar to add to the chaos.
This is highly active at the moment.

Earthquake activity escalating?

Another speaks 10% ++++ truth.
No less & no more,
Like the rest of us.

Bfiler
Get a life and smile!

Love the rain and vino tinto.

With the recent rise in gold and not knowing if it is temporary or a trend upward that we have all been long waiting for. I like to hear comments on when to buy shares of gold mining companies. Gold has been on a downward trend for a couple of years now and I guess the big question is "Is gold near or has it hit it's bottom yet?" Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

What If the Dollar Just Keeps Rising?

Nationally syndicated market analyst, Rick Ackerman, shares his insights about the adverse strength of the greenback.

Business couldn't be better, consumers are as confident as they've been in years, the dollar is king and interest rates are bouncing near multi- year lows.

Not much for U.S. investors to worry about, right?

THINK AGAIN. That strong dollar, of all things, is threatening to
blight the rosy picture by destabilizing financial markets and
constricting global trade. Moreover, there is no apparent way to
stop it. WHAT ARE THE DIRE RAMIFICATIONS?

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

US monetary base grew 9.1 % in 1997 due mainly to pumping in last three months. The year end growth was considerably higher than usual seasonal currency led growth. I calculate the average compound yearly growth in monetary base since 1986 at 7.36% . Mid Jan figures in todays Barrons indicate a drop in currency in circulation of 5.5 B, but monetary base dropped only 2.8 B. The latter is about average for January over the last ten years.

Big question: Will the Fed keep pumping in the new year? Related question: Is the US consumer the consumer of last resort in our screwed up new global economy?

different entities.

Based on my experience 20+ years ago, I developed a definition of a PATRIOT which it would behoove ALL in any land, to live by.

A PATRIOT is one who LOVES COUNTRY more than He/She fears its Government!

I assure you, until one has come up against the full power and force of a tyrannical government and held fast to one's position and beliefs, one should hesitate to comment on the Patriotism of others. Chauvinism is one thing. Deepseated PATRIOTISM is definitely another!!

I personally know PATRIOTS from a few other lands, mainly south of here. I know thousands from U.S.A.!

Have met and learned from PATRIOTS of our neighbor ( brothers and sisters ) to the north.

All governments, at one time or another need to be told to get back in their holes. That's why we have a ( initiallyy thought to be ) Fail Safe device in OUR CONSTITUTION. It's generally called the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

Many poor souls on this planet have not been so blessed by FARSIGHTED POLITICAL PROGENITORS.

We speak of exporting freedom and continue to support demagogues abroad and at home. It's because we ( collectively ) have forgotten- or never learned- what FREEDOM really IS!!

What's up with you and Carol? Where's Alice, too? I think I smell perfume...watch out pard. I see Haggaaii had trouble containing his instinct last night. Haggis, farfel's got me so confused....is there a possibility that you are Merle Haggard? If so, do you need some new songs about creeks, beer cans or old dogs? Got 'em, buddy. Just give me a call at BR- 549...ask fer me. And as always.....Go Goldbugs! ( that makes my post on point, you see ) They said they're goin' hit me with 6500 volts next Tuesday. ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz. Can't wait.

http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/240506.html

EXTRACTS.......

Japan has experienced such a situation once before. This was the panic
of 193031, which got its start with the U.S. stock market crash in the
autumn of 1929 and became more serious when Japan lifted the gold
embargo and returned to the gold standard at the start of 1930. Today,
of course, there have been vast changes in the world economy and Japan's
standing in it. Nonetheless, the true value of gold is just as
fathomless now as it was back then. Starting around the middle of the
eighteenth century, the rulers of the world first in Britain and later
in America repeatedly sought ways to incorporate gold into the
international monetary system in an efficient and economical fashion.
Given this history, the convertibility of currencies into gold cannot be
treated lightly. The significance of gold is too weighty for that.

.....

Such talk mirrors the growing Japanese backlash to the way this country
is treated by Americans. This reaction, which has been intensifying in
the 1990s, centers on complaints about what Americans call "global
standards." Though the name has a good ring to it, many Japanese are
inclined to see them as standards that suit the convenience of the
United States and have been forcibly imposed on Japan. Subsequent to the
"Nixon shock" of August 1971, when U.S. President Richard Nixon
terminated the convertibility between dollars and gold and devaluated
the dollar, America has sought to replace the gold standard with a
dollar standard by bringing to an end the use of gold as a currency. The
illusion that the dollar has become a good international standard has
taken fairly firm hold in the 1990s, but it will be shattered if moves
get underway to sell U.S. Treasuries and buy gold for foreign- currency
reserves. Such behavior would present a challenge to America's
international monetary strategy.

One rumor that refuses to go away is that in the course of Japan's
postwar occupation by the United States, Tokyo entered into a secret
pact with Washington not to convert its foreign- currency reserves into
gold even if they swell. If both countries then reached an unspoken
agreement based on such a pact to the effect that Japan would help
America maintain the dollar regime, the prime minister's remark might
have far more significance than one can read from the words themselves.
It could be a message stating that Japan has changed its mind about
always observing the unspoken agreement faithfully.

I'm looking for input on Miramar Mining, MAENF- Nasdaq,
MAE- VSE & TSE, any information is welcome
My condolences to the survivors of PGU

Good perspective on patriotism.

The "best" indicator for when to but GOLD shares is surprisingly the GOLD price, OR the Nikkei:

http://satellite.nikkei.co.jp/enews/TNKS/stox/strend.html

You may wish to give this article a read..........

http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/240506.html

Aye, Haggis

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 03:32
mozel ( tolerant1 ) ID#153102:
Question: What major currency will the dollar be devalued against ?

Answer: GOLD !!

Hey Stud: Just a little 'thingy' as a side order- - boys will be boys...eh
Sh!t they got me up ta 10,000 volts and it ain't doin a damn thing fer me but guess some of us are just lost causes....go team gold ( there I said it )

Seize ya later.

http://www.miramarmining.com/miramar/miramar.html

JAMES BROWN HAS JUST BEEN APPREHENDED BY THE DAMN LAW AND PUT IN A NUT HOUSE....NO CRAP....MY GOD. THE GODFATHER OF SOUL....SOULMAN NUMBER ONE....AUGUSTA, GA.....FAMILY MEMBERS HAD HIM ROUNDED UP BY THE MEN IN WHITE....OH MY DEAR GOD....THIS IS THE SADDEST DAY IN MY HISTORY. Could we take up a collection and give him a little gold something for all his hit records. {Please, pleasae, please! ) I am ill with sadness.

Thanks for the response. I was at that site this AM looking ant the
3rd Q 97 financials. They appear to be in a pretty good position but I'll have to wait for 4th Q 97 results.

Selby, export of physicians from Canada to the US will not work for too much longer. The US is slowly but surely taking the same turn. Medical schools are cutting down their enrollment, it is more difficult to get a job in larger cities, and HMOs are doing their number on private practices and what can and can not be billed. Many of doctors are giving up, senior experienced doctors are leaving profession tired to fight paper pushers in insurance companies and ever increasing cost of malpractice insurance and number of law suites. Some experts are worried that we may end up with attrition of experience with young doc. learning in the field, performing complicated procedures without leadership of more experienced people on a hospital staff. This does not make so comfortable.

My daughter is just entering med. school, and we have a many discussions about whats ahead for her. Well, she just loves the profession, does not care about "striking it rich", and wants to be one of the family practitioners, even if it was in deep countryside. As a matter of fact, she is thinking about signing up for a few years to work for Indian Health Services.

Aurator: Personal rant duly noted, recorded and forgotten. In defense of Mozel, his comments were nothing more than a superordination of the rhetorical over the literal. Mostly in response to my earlier smartassed jab. More, he was expressing a growing realization that wars are nothing more than an extension of bankrupt political systems and should be given short shrift by any who are requested to participate in same. That is, requested by political bodies as opposed to personal conscience.

That point of view is quite apart and certainly distinct from a general disparaging of historical conflicts and roles the many have played in them. Whether friend or foe. ........ and I apologize for my part in setting the tone for that thread.

Studio R: Put away for allegedly, ".. feelin' ( too ) gooooood"? .... no dissing intended.

Oh my fukin god~~~~~~~back off Carl- - - you2 Earl...

EB~~~~~~~~~~~~~huh

I know its a dastardly plot by his 193 children...there stealin' his money...may they all rot in hell....the whole damn bunch.

He wouldn't put up with EB...not for a single moment.

( belch )

ungrateful little bastards~~~~~~~~I gotta have a drink- - bbl

John Disney: Can you send a copy of your analysis?

ALL: Is the COMEX closed on Monday ?

RECENT HEADLINES: Lenders are not blameless, say World Bank, IMF

IT'S THE TRUTH THAT'S BEING DEVALUED

Dr. Paul Hein explains the significant difference between the real devaluation of a currency versus its change in parity with the dollar. It is indeed an interesting distinction - which at least to me - not readily apparent. Dr. Hein uses the rapidly wasting away of the Indonesian rupiah as a perfect example.

Dr. Hein also blames greedy international bankers for the Asian currency chaos - - by overloading the Tiger economies with loan money that could not be put to effective and productive use to generate enough cash flow to pay on- going interest, and eventually loan amortization. Once the hapless country is unable to service burgeoning loans, the IMF is called in to administer the coup- de- grace in the form of chokingly stringent economic restrictions.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Gazebo- The time to buy Gold Stocks?When you order the plot and tombstone.Nothing to disinherit Right !

Interesting reading, gives a Japanese perspective. From reading all the North American "stuff", one would think the Japanese were "stuffed". Me thinks not, question is - how do they view GOLD?

http://www.japanecho.co.jp/index.html

Got some reading to do.................

A very clever phrase used by Clinton apologists, defenders, and smokescreens ( e.g., Carville ) in regards to the Whitewater scandal. You are the first of them that I have heard who is honest enough to credit the real source.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 02:04
Bfiler ( Gertrude Stein ) ID#261267:
There is no there there!! Reffering to LA but could be same thought of
gold.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Refer, thanks for your post.

I am not 100 % certain that ANOTHER is a writer, I just
do not have any other thoughts on the sublect of "why
ANOTHER posted here".

I would assume it could be some kind of a test run.

You're right that the story is very consistent and was not
created on the fly. ANOTHER developed some realistically
looking idea in relative details before giving it to us.

Agenda? The most simple explanation is that ANOTHER is
a short seller - "Gold is good,good,good, are you crazy
not to buy when it's absolutely going to skyrocket any
time and very big - you see why??" and then of course
" he,he,he, dummies, I'll sell it now....buy dummies, buy..."

BUT then it looks like this short seller spends to much
time on this subject, short sellers should be happy enough
with media work and "US$ and US$ Treasuries as a safe haven".

So, what other options I have to consider if ANOTHER is
not a short seller?

Looks like it is going to miss Cairns, BUT OH!!!!!!!! Townsville ?????

http://www.ece.jcu.edu.au/JCUMetSat/aushlast.gif

Another = Hogwash

Oris: Kitco has maybe a 0.00000001% impact on the world Gold market.
The London market trades 44 million ounces daily, and any short seller
plying his wares here would have little success moving this market.

Aye, in between your postings, and when I'm working on other issues!

of beauty rest !

James Brown, the Godfather of Soul, is the most important entertainer of our time. His feet of fire and scream from his soul has reshaped all we know about all. He is more important than any President. In fact, I heard it through the grapevine that the National Democratic Committee had contacted him to run for U.S. Senator from his beloved Georgia. He is more important than Einstein...and I think Monday should become his day, or at least Monday night, rather than M.L.K., jr.. Do I hear a OOoooooowwwww! for that nomination! It's A Man's World.....I Feel Good.....Papa's Got a Brand New Bag!....Please,please,please!....Bewildered.....It goes on and on brother Haggis....

Tzadek

Is there an internet site where HK gold can be gotten?

Mike Sheller; it looks like the stars failed gstd.

Who's the most confused person in the world today?

A gold derivatives trader who expects the gold price to drop below the
BIS ( Bank of International Settlements ) book price, and who is
presently in a VERY SHORT position!

It is certainly not an experienced GOLD GEOLOGIST!

Which one are you????

That's what I am saying too.
Sorry, if I didn't make it clear enough...

If he cannie play the Bagpipes, then he has NO SOUL...............

He is a bagpipe...the only bagpipe...he is all that you need him to be. "Nuff said!" Now leave me in peace.

10- 4

I recon that ANOTHER is Japanese ?!

Try:
GOLD CORNER - 24- HOUR TRADING

Major Gold Trading Centers Around the World. Many Gold price links, including closing bullion and gold coin prices. Also shows live GOLD TRADING in London, Singapore, Tokyo & the COMEX:
http://www.gold- eagle.com/quotes/goldcorner.html
You must delete the space just after the word "gold" in the
above URL - then cut and paste it to your Internet call- up window, and ENTER

the President was on his way do the downtown Washington office of his attorney to give his deposition in the P.J. case. The reporter said that
depositions were expected to take about four to five hours. Also said that reporters were all over the sidewalk to get pictures, etc.
I also remember hearing or reading somewhere in the last couple of days that Clinton is resigned to the possibility that this will go to trial in
May . This may be a "real sleeper" of a situation that will cause lots of
repercussions. We probably haven't heard the end of this one yet.
It's the first time ever that a President has been required to give depositions in a case while he is in office.

Did he drop his pants again??

Now we have an experienced GOLD GEOLOGIST 24 hrs a day and Papa's got a brand new bag .I veritably veritably feel safe now,There coming to take me away ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

?

First the coffee ( to start the growl ) ...then kitco ( to get all wound up ) ....then the nut house ( to join James, get some rest and write some songs, I'll give my regards from StudioR ) .......ohmy!

away...to climb into my staight- jacket

gonloony

"full disclosure". ) This one is a joke ) .

And what can we say about Counter Tenors.........

1. They could warn a village of the approach of Vikings

2, They make certain parts of a motet audible only to dogs.

3. Useful as Turkey- Treats for deserving baritones.

4. Nearly as efficient as the full- size floor model

5. Whales will sometimes answer them.

6. More exotic than eggplant.

and, last but not least..........

7. When inverted, blown and squeezed hard they can be made to
sound like bagpipes.

For moregold - Send me an email and Ill send the

spreadsheet - Last quarter results are coming in on the

RSA mines so it will need updating. My NEW address is

jdisney@mweb.co.za.

For the SPUD - you are doing a fine job of dumping

on the tasteless and crude peasant LGB. He NEEDS this

to teach him humility and transform him into a better

person. It looks like Bfiler needs it too. I used to

do it but I got tired - My heart is with you - let the

force be with you - It looks like Karlita was consumed

by Kitco fury and force - This force will drive gold

to great heights and flatten the pedestrian dreams of

peons like bfiler -

For the False Bernatz - watch out crude one - The

true Bernatz seeks you complete with medieval cutlery.

For the ever Tolerant one - I would pick Harmony -

above all others - but Id cover on Randfontein.

J.B. has all of Pink Floyd's discs and thought very highly of them. ( as in dead stoned ) And James Brown has always been a strong advocate of the gold standard...he has consumed more gold ( acapulco ) in use for gold records than any living soul.

I like to drink expensive brands
of vodka with cold smoked salmon.

I like to smoke Salem Slim Lights.

I like my .357 Ruger GP- 161.

I like mountains and green grass.

Did I answer your question?

I do not think so......I will post an exact replica from yesterday for ALL to see....my ONE and ONLY wager with Spuds....and I will NOT repeat myself or go here ANYMORE...

I only wagered with D.A. because he is an honorable hombre and his posts have the greatest amount of respect for his fellow kitcoite. I will not wager with others who twist words...they remind me of politicians and...well, just politicians.

Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 12:14

EB ( Before I go help old ladies 'post- cataract'........ ) ID#22956:

Spuds...

I have a good wager. I bet that I profited ( at least ) TEN times what you did last year

( '97 ) on our PM 'investment/speculations'. TEN TIMES. And my bet is TEN winks (

maple, vp, , don't care ) . Sound good??

Regardless of what I said yesterday or last week or last month. Regardless of how I

sqwack like a Leghorn. Regardless if I am wrong about gold making ANOTHER

bottom. File all of that. Let us make this wager. Sound good??

I must rush to work now so I will read your response tomorrow ( Saturday ) ...I can't

play with you tonight ;- )

WELL??!? Spuds??!? You will receive no other response from me regarding this or any other wagers....please do not waste our time that we have together............uh huh...ohmy ( loving smile ) .

away...to do mounds of insurance paperwork ( the glamour of making specs )

?

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980117/malaysia_b_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980117/aerospace__2.html

Friday, January 16, 1998
First fallout from Asia financial crisis reaches Europe

BERLIN ( AP )  Asia's economic crisis is being felt in Europe, where financial houses face layoffs or lower ratings, investments are being put on hold and corporate executives wait nervously to see the effect on their bottom lines.

But experts said this week they don't expect the broader impact to be as serious in Europe as across the Atlantic. "European companies are probably slightly less exposed to Asian markets than their American equivalents," said Peter Dixon, senior economist at Commerzbank in Frankfurt.

While about 30 per cent of U.S. exports go to Asia, the figure is considerably less for Europe, he noted: "So, I wouldn't expect to see the same impact from a downturn in demand." Yet some sectors are especially vulnerable, including banks and companies working on big infrastructure projects, such as highways, dams and power plants.

Asian leaders are under pressure from the International Monetary Fund and other donors to close insolvent banks and rein in government spending. Moody's Investors Service placed French state- owned bank Credit Lyonnais S.A. under review this week for possible downgrading because of its exposure to troubled banks in South Korea, Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia.

Separately, Moody's noted that some big German banks also were vulnerable because of the globalization of their business.

Most big German banks have exposure of between $20 billion and $30 billion each in the region, Dixon says.

Meanwhile, British- based Schroders Securities is firing about 220 people from its Asia Pacific securities division in Hong Kong. It offered no explanation, but news reports have said the company was hit by falling profits because of Asia's financial troubles.

Also this week, Swiss- Swedish engineering firm Asea Brown Boveri said Asia's troubles could cost the company's German power generation subsidiary up to $550 million in orders. Siemens spokesman Thomas Weber says none of the projects his company is involved with in Asia have been cancelled or postponed  "yet." "But ask me what I expect for the next half year, . . .it's very hard to say," he said.

Meanwhile, the Asian crisis appears to be causing some Asian companies to rethink their plans for expansion into Europe. South Korea's Daewoo Electronics is suspending indefinitely a planned $280 million plant in eastern France because of financial problems at home. The plant would have brought at least 700 jobs to Thionville, where unemployment is at 11 per cent.

But Japan's automobile giant Toyota has announced plans in the last month to build its second European car plant in northern France and to expand engine production at its factory in northern Wales.

Vronsky

is the date correct or the price?



Commodities
Last Updated Thu Jan 15 13:30:00 1998 HK/Singapore Time
Tokyo +1 Hour, Delhi - 2 1/2 Hours

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980116/asia_usa_r_2.html

10- 4 = OK, Gotcha in Radio lingo

Studio.R.- If James likes Floyd ?I hope he gets out of jail before the next tour.GO WATERS GO,

There must be some other site where I can get current gold prices. The ABN site is 2 days old.

Thanks.

As was Asia, this is just another "small bump in the road" for Wall Street:

http://freerepublic.com/forum/a66405.htm

They were naked but didn't have sex; "There's no there there" means impotence?
Tyson deals in chicken and drugs?

Got it, thanks.

Didn't know before...

Thanks J.D. I traded ECO twice and made a small return, but this story seems finished now. The Canadian press is dumping on it today, and as I mentioned Friday, this stock will probably be a shorters dream on Monday.

He's not in jail....he's done that time....he's in an insane asylum. I'd go down there to check on him...but they'd probably throw me in there too. BTW, Louis Armstrong did consume more ackey gold than J.B....but he's dead, so my statement stands.

Dave,this PCBF is gone.
Heard the first shot and took off.
We are out of fun again, damn...

huh

You're killing me man. The latest epitath to my beloved JB was quite funny. And your latest joke of the American who dropped a fiver at the pub was 'par' for the European course....you see, he was leaving a tip for the hardworking pubkeeper. A tip is something you 'give' someone who has served you and it shows that you enjoyed the service, entertainment, etc. It is all part of the cost of the beverage.....something you could learn when sitting in the pub swilling single- malt......mmmmmgood. ( I am grinning at ya' right now ) ...

away...to tip all servers



They let ya out....go nics+ Gold~~~~

Studio.R.,Ted - No junkies here but let's venture to the studio for some sniffing salts.Away to catch EB with is pants down.

why not?.... how's life @ the lake? ...EB: But I'm not sure ( duh ) ..~~~~~Beautiful day @ the ocean with large waves rollin in and a crsytal- clear of beloved Scaterie Island ( the 'real' Cape Breton...eh..

January 16, 1998
Global lenders finish S.Korea rollover plan- source

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - International lenders Friday officially completed a plan to roll over South Korean short term debt through March 31, a source close to the talks said.

"It gives us the time to sit down and work out an agreement with the Koreans longer term," the source said.

The source added that South Korean foreign exchange reserves have stabilized and were beginning to show some net gain, after hemorrhaging before Christmas at a rate of $1 billion to $1.7 billion per day.

( like until Monday morning ) , and go to my nearest detox center. Hope I
don't have too many withdrawal problems, this time.
Sharefin, you're in charge until I come back.

My face is red. Sorry, I thought you guys were kidding.

The only candy I like is frozen Snickers and chocolates ( of all kinds ) . Chocolate and coffee rips me, baby. a smoke now and then... ( teehee ) ...not proud though. Go Gold Bugs!

Elemental silver IMHO combines with sulfur and halides ( chlorine, florine, iodine ) much more readily than with air or water...Which is why people who live near factories, the ocean and other sources of same would probably get corrosion faster than people who live inside a plastic bubble in the California desert.

BTW, if you want to get rich, convince congress to require sacrificial silver electrodes ( similar to wire feed welding machines ) on the engines of all commercial jets flying in the stratosphere. This silver vapor would IMHO combine with the free halides from the CFC's the environmentalists worry about, then precipitate as silver halides. It might also neutralize acid rain.

This, by the way is my own untested crackpot idea. It is no more crackpot than the theories of global warming...Anyone who would like to use it is free to do so, but since it is published here, it can't be patented...IMHO ( Gee, wouldn't you like to see a somebody waste 100,000 pounds of silver seeing if it would work? Talk about silver booms! )

Coward.

Go now, and find your hand.
( appolgies to Roland )

Ted- The lake is frozen and the Indian's are putting up with the rise in Gold - - - - not enough clouds for forecasting today- - - - need some bad weather for predicating - - - - away to see tribal dances.

I wouldn't say that in public unless you are 'outing' yourself. My pants are of the hetorosexual type........although I have nothing against my 'merrier' friends....oh my.

away...to buckle- up the trousers...gold will soar

@someday ;- )

ted - the Heat is in tinsel- town 2- nite to get crushed....Pat will be run outta town...

Thought so...

at my office...shut down until they release my man. I also closed my office the day of Roy Orbison's funeral. Half- day for Albert Collins. Will shut down full day for Ronnie Reagan.

January 16, 1998

U.S. manufacturing shows no Asia drag entering 1998

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - U.S. manufacturing businesses were accelerating as 1997 ended, boosting output solidly in December as they shook off any early impact from ailing Asia, a Federal Reserve report Friday showed.

Total industrial output climbed 0.5 percent last month after a 0.8 percent rise in November. Fourth- quarter production surged at a 7.4 percent annual rate, the strongest quarterly advance since a 7.5 percent jump in the second quarter of 1996.

Analysts said vibrant domestic demand was holding off damage from an inevitable slowdown in exports to cash- strapped Asian countries and could sustain expansion in 1998.

"Once again, the data show that the U.S. economy is well- positioned to withstand the blow that will eventually come from Asia," said Philadelphia- based economist Joel Naroff of First Union Corp. in Charlotte, N.C.

"But if it is a love- tap, not an uppercut, the momentum that was built up at the end of 1997 could be enough to allow the economy to continue to move forward without losing much strength," he added.

Federal Reserve officials were out in force during the past week arguing that while Asia will buy fewer American goods this year, the regional crisis was unlikely to create a major problem for the United States. It will also help keep price inflation in check.

"The road ahead looks pretty good," Robert Parry, president of the San Francisco Fed, told a meeting of business leaders and economists there.

"Although we can expect some slowing as many East Asian economies work through their problems, I don't expect it to knock our expansion off the rails," he said.

Factories were churning out goods at 83.4 percent of maximum capacity in December, up from 83.3 percent in November for the strongest operating rate in more than two years. The last time factories were busier was in September 1995, when they hit 83.6 percent of capacity.

"It remains to be seen whether manufacturing will utlimately be hurt by the Asian situation," said Anthony Karydakis, an economist at First Chicago Capital Markets Inc. in New York. "After all, it is the sector most vulnerable to the Asia crisis, since the lion's share of our exports is manufactured goods."

http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/ECONOMY.html

I see your point. Probably a good way to do it, but remember that people send all kinds of stuff up there ( little flags, mementos, etc. ) so Glenn may or may not even hold the thing in his hands. Nice idea as far as a promo goes, though.
Like I said, if you want me to see if I can get something on board, let me know.

Look what the same thing did for Patty Duke's career. Brown has pro'ly had more press over this than over the the entire last year's routine events.

'They' say that chocolate 'tickles' the same part of the brain that Acapulco Gold does. I choose.....well, chocolate, of course ( grin ) . Addictions are a nasty thing aren't they?? uh huh.

away...to tickle my brain

ong!

go gold~~~~~~~~~~~~ y lakers tambin!

I am going to make some prelim calls on Monday. I will let all know how they turn out. And if we need to go via another route I will take you up on your kind offer. Thanks.

EB's CONFIDENT BRAGGING of 1/15/98 :

"Good job on the Maples Spuds. I have said all along that it is the buy 'o the century for the physical...too bad ya' didn't wait though ( grin ) . Whats 25 bucks a coin though, eh? yuk, yuk. "

Gold was at $284/oz at that moment, so EB was bragging that gold would fall to $259/oz.

I don't blame you EB, you made a rash statement and you got caught. Now you are in denial. Doesn't look good, old man. Makes you sound like a person who says one thing and does another.

Cheerio!
Spud, off to tend the mexican chicken casserole ... and defend impure silver from evil influence of IMF sulfides...

To all you people out there that currently hold Echo Bay...the company is finished. They will be following Pegasus into chapter 11 reorg.

9- 3= read you loud and clear, for deaf persons. or 9- 3= 6 to non- Kitcoites.

Chocolate is good.

No kidding, everybody should try South African
chocolate - it's just perfect, old fashinated
classy rich dark hard chocolate.

Chocolate is good for brain support.

Chocolate is good with hot strong tea, coffee or
sometimes with French brandy.

Both kids and adults like chocolate.

Doctors recommend a little bit of chocolate every day...

Long live chocolate...

THE INGER FORECAST REPORT - 15 January 1998

Nationally acclaimed analyst and oft CNBC- TV financial guru shares his diagnosis of recent market action... and gives his prognosis of what is looming on the horizon.

He likens recent US market action to the Japanese Big Bear that began in January 1989, and continues to growl as I speak. In a sense this does remind me a little of the Japanese break from its high near 40,000 seven years or so ago... In route to what eventually would be a 25,000 point decline, the Nikkei actually had more up days then down days; it's just that down days were lulus.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

You're still in our gold/chocolate franchise deal...right? What's our official policy towards vanilla? I think we have to draw a line somewhere, personally. White chocolate....oxymoron... ( dumb oil man ) .

Another:

Hear me now, if gold tries to go lower than US$ $280 the BIS will buy it OUTRIGHT in the OPEN for all to see! They must! They will! I know.

My reply:

Another has predicted without any doubt that Gold will not close lower than $280. and the bottom is in. If BIS makes a move and $280. holds I will take another look at ANOTHER. I hope he is genuine and I will vehemently await next weeks market movements.

Summation:

I feel uncomfortable posting the following but I feel it must be addressed. Anothers prediction was proven correct very decisively.

I do not believe Another is a writer trying to refine his writing style for western consumption. He does seem to have a knowledge of the gold bullion market and international trade. I have to accept him at face value and the latest prediction of $280. was bold and unforgiving if proven incorrect. Another could not post here as an insider if gold would have closed below the $280 level. Futermore, I do not see him returning to Kitco boasting about his insightful call. I believe we have ANOTHER indicator to watch.

Does BIS release bullion purchases to the public?

I am a stockholder. I am concerned. Can you
explain your reasons?

In response to your comments on when to buy gold. At what price is a good time to get in on gold mining shares? When the price of gold reaches 300/oz. or what? Also, what gold mining companies, if there are any left, would be a good investment?

Luker777- Even LGB predicated 280 .Another = Hogwash

I'll tell you what, man...
If you still want me in a your candy store,
I'll be happy. Pay in gold, bonus in
chocolate, tips in vodka and gifts in
.357 ammo ( brand name only ) .

Take me as you employee and you would
not regret about it. It's not a threat,
it's a promise...

Sir, please accept correction:

you employee= your employee

___________________________

So, do we have a deal?

Why did S& P, Moody's, Etc, only downgrade Asian Banks? I find it hard to believe that there are no western banks that have not followed the same policy as Asian Banks. I believe that the western banks are basically having the same problem, and are being supported by the CB'S to hide the problem.

If not, why did the western banks that dealt with Asian banks let it go so far? Is it possible that this was all a ruse to tank their currencies? ( namely the concurrent downgrading of Asian banks. )

As I have stated before, all currencies and banks work on the fractional reserve system. Any bank, whether Eastern or Western would collapse if the depositors made a concerted effort to pull their cash out at one time. Therefore all banks are really insolvent because there is no way in H!LL that they could redeem all of their paper if this event occurred. Is not this hypocracy on a grand scale? They have created money on a ten to one basis and then charge us interest. This ten to one expands as it changes hands probably creating money at a 100 to 1 factor. What a racket.

All governments have the same problem. They have to keep rolling over their debt. If entities decided not to support this paper any longer, who would support them?

It is not the REALITY, but our perception of REALITY that counts. Fiat currencies have the weakness mentioned above, and history has proven time and time again that governments collapse over and over because of currency debasement by expanding and creating same and by the fractional system. We have all been conned into accepting this system. Who does this system benefit?

Now, if governments created interest free money for expansion of infrastructures, etc, I believe that we would have prosperity up the GAZOO. Of course, the big money people would not get their interest year after year after year. There is no hope that the principal will ever repaid. NEVER!!! Whereas interest free money could and would be paid back thereby retiring the principal and therefore the debt. Put another way, the money created to be loaned out interest free is payed back, therefore it is an asset created by the use there of, say one million kizmos to build a bridge. The bridge is built and the bridge has an asset value of one million kizmos. This is how wealth is created, not by USARY methods that certain individuals want to exploit. They create it out of nothing now, why should we have to pay interest on it?

No wonder the BIG MONEY people ( bastards ) don't want the shell game to end. The taxpayer and ordinary citizen are in reality SLAVES to the big money interests. We have to keep paying with no hope of ever getting out of debt. Not only do they want interest payments on money created out of nothing by our governments, now they want to buy up Asian assets for pennies. TALK ABOUT GREED!

Gold is Gold and always will be. It has a certain intrinsic value, namely it is relatively scarce, can not be destroyed by fire and so on. It will always have value, whether it is used to back up a currency ( not neccessary if governments followed the policy of creating interest free money ) , or to hang around your neck, put on your finger, wrist and so on.
Gold will always have value because it is beautiful and indestructible.

I believe Gold is at its nadir. Buy with both fists. Fiat currency is doomed to failure. History has proved this over and over.

I know and expect that someone will write back and trash my beliefs. I expect this. This is because words can be rationalized and twisted to suit one's purposes. The TRUTH will always prevail as will gold.

GO GOLD & DOWN WITH THE BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

am I finished???

wash~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~another suks.....

Are there any solvent gold mining companies left that would be a great investment. And when to buy in is the question. Comments please. Thank you.

How large of operations are we talking about? How much debt was in the filing for Pegasus?

Also, is there any correlation between the stock price of a mining operation and the asset value? Or is it a speculation situation like the rest of the stock market with price/earnings ratios high in the sky? In other words, how much correlation is there in an increase in the price of gold and the price of the stock? The more that the stock valuation is speculatively high the less affect besides psychological that POG movements would have.

I have been watching my wifes IRA in Fidelity which I shifted over to American Gold and Select Precious metals a few weeks ago and it seems that the downward move in gold had a much larger effect on the funds value than the recent upward move in gold. Why?

And I agree...guns are always a good idea at our candy store. Did you ever see Willy Wonka...wow! Better movie than "Gone with the Wind". Except I would have shot Gene Wilder when he came in the store. He reminds me of Woody Allen, who needs to be shot too.

Gold closed $5.00 higher on friday to 290.00. Echo Bay dropped 1/2 to 1 and 9/1, a whopping 26% loss in one day and an all time low. The Canadian Press is dumping all over Echo Bay. The company is following Pegasus into Chapter 11. There are many parallels between Echo Bay and Pegasus.

Both have closed many of their mines because they are spent.
Both have over $300 million writeoff last quarter
Echo Bay was recently dropped from the S& P 500
Echo Bay has closed almost all their exploration offices...Vancouver, Spokane, Santiago, and next Reno. In a mining company, no exploration...no future.

Echo Bay fired it's President, Richard Kraus in the spring and has not replaced him. What vision does the company have that does not have a President?

Paradones and Aquarius, thier "development" properties are not economic and are both jokes. They have written off their Kingking in the Phillipines ( the next savior of the company ) because of the bad deal they stuctured.

As a shareholder sweat...where do you see their future? why are you holding the stock?

We read a lot in the financial press about deflation. But there are inflationary forces at work as well. Such as tight labor markets. The leading hospital in Palm Beach County is offering $1,000 bonuses to employees who persuade their friends to accept certain kinds of jobs there. Air fares have skyrocketed. My sense is that inflation still is the dominant trend in many services, but deflation is becoming a growing threat in the goods producing sectors.

Gold, the yen, and the asian markets certainly due for reactions after last week's impressive rallies. But these will be buying opportunities.

Yes Ted, you are finished. You need to build a lot of deck to recover your investment mistakes ;- ) Damn, what am I to do? I dont know how to build decks :- (

BARRONS' GOLD MINING INDEX / GOLD BULLION RATIO is a bullish 1.251 ( representing an 81 % probability that AU shares may be 83% higher within one year, per Jay Kaeppel ) & Seasonally adjusted M3 continues to rise 10 % for another week !!!!

GOOD LUCK & HAPPY HUNTING !

Y.O.S.
Tar Baby TNEWTRON@AOL.COM

Buy RYO, it's at 1 3/8 now.
Why? Because I hope RYO will go up trifold this year.
If RYO goes down right after you bought, don't blame
me - you asked for it, I honestly answered.

Take care...

TED

If you put every cent you had in ECO...you'd better get it out quick!!...there are plenty of gold mining companies out there that are better investments that ECO. Now's the time to get in but Echo Bay is the wrong horse.

Attending a dinner with my parents as a teenager, I vividly remember one gentlemens discourse on The art of the stolen concept . His example was the statement, All property is theft. which, he explained, stole the concept of property to promulgate an untruth. I remember nothing else of that evening, save the benchmark/standard of truth to which I had been introduced. A small scale, a measurement, by which to evaluate a truth.

When we ( I am a transgressor here too ) talk of devaluing the dollar, we are falling from the truth scales and indulging in the art of the stolen concept; we are accepting- - as a given- - that the dollar is the measure of something, that it has value, while well we know it does not!

What the dollar is worth on any given day is a market function. The dollar has no intrinsic worth and is a measure of nothing other than market sentiment.

On this board- - at least- - we should rigorously decline to participate in Their mind- set games. I shall certainly endeavor to do better in the days ahead!

M R Walking Liberties.

M R not Walking LIberties.

S M R Walking Liberties!

Y?

C D E D B D feet?

O S M R 2 Walking LIberties!

guess I screwed- up....eh..

Miro: I'm sure the US will soak up a couple of hundred more MD's without a burp for years and years. The real concern is will the taxpayer continue the excess production of MD's for much longer just to keep the medical establishment happy. I think they will but I never thought I would see a 30% cut in income taxes or a balanced budget or cut backs to teachers union control over education or a 25 % cut in the number of civil servants in 4 years or a 20% cut in welfare payments either.

Depends when you got into ECO...what price did you get in at?

The tone sure changes over the week- ends.
Lots of rain in the last week here in southern Oregon. It will be good to see the sun again.
Love Chocolate, the best I have ever tasted was Israeli chocolate given to me by Reify. It was wonderful, better than Swiss. Try it, you'll like it.
Go chocolate

http://www.canoe.ca/FP/jan17_metalsfirm.html

Article about hard times ahead for metal producer's.

Ted- Hogwash = Fiddle- faddle

I'll shoot at anything you point me to shoot at..
...Hollywood style...We'll also have a couple
of NRA posters in out candy store, and I'll
be wearing a holster on the hip, may be even
two.. if you wish. Let's call it STUDORIS party
store, but you got to get liquoir lisense also...

.357 Rugers are gonna be our standard issue, I'll
get you one for carry, SP101 may be - quit piece..

We'll play rock- n- roll music inside and outside
the store, serve German beer and Russian vodka,
with Canadian style smoked salmon on rye bread..

A couple of babes will not hurt business either...

I'll make you very rich within a month, I know
how to sell this stuff...

What do you think?

and I ain't comin' back. c u L8er.

Tissue paper up.
UPS and FedEx up.
Airfare up.
Employment up.
Money supply up.

Electronics down.

What better way to sneak in the kind of money supply creation we have seen without creating inflationary expectations than to get everyone talking about non- existent deflation. Talk about opportunism.

We're rich ( chocolate ) ! c u L8er

Studio, some other thoughts...
To really fire up our business,
we'll also play Boney- M music..
if you know this thing "Rasputin,Rasputin..."

Go ahead and short them. Good luck.

waves are big......out to enjoy em...Selby: Thanks for the 'Export of Physicians'- - - I've grown ta hate U.S.of A doctors ( not that most of em are in it for the money ( primarily ) ....naaahhhh...they 'care'...away to enJOY the spectacular ocean shoreline.....C not all negative! never have been!naaaahhhhhh....bbMl- - - -

BRAVO ! I read recently the proper terminology is "loss of parity with other paoer currency", in lieu of "devaluation .

Y.O.S.
Tar Baby
TNEWTRON@AOL.COM

I listened to Armstrong's latest take on the mkts about 1 1/2 hrs ago. He will be appearing at an investment conference in Vancouver next Sat & the fellow sponsoring the conference had him on his radio talk show.

Silver- - he expects to be called as as witness to testify against 2 rogue traders in London. He claims they got together 2 bil$ & are manipulating the mkt. Says the upside is 7 but if they are forced to liquidate it could be at 3 in July. The way he put it was "someone long 5 contracts could lose their house".

Gold- - he's neg for at least 6 months. If it gets below 286 it will probably retest recent lows 278- 280, sees support at 265.

Says the recent volatility can be traced to last summer when the Germans were unable to complete the sale of their long bond for the 1st time since war. Used to be 3 trillion short term money, now 30 tril. Expect extreme volatility going forward.

This guy has a pretty good record. A year ago next weekend he predicted the currency devaluations in seasia & the carnage that would ensue. Also predicted a .69 Cdn$ when the other analysts were predicting 74- 76.

I'm glad I sold 2/3 of my gold stocks yesterday. I don't have the stomach to short silver futures but on Mon I will be shorting some of the stocks.

If anyone has any thoughts on a good silver stock short candidate I'd like to know. I'm thinking about SSO because of their mines in politically unstable countries.

Any Canadians out there who are thinking about remortgaging probably should do it before March. Apparently the CB will have to rollover 15 bil of bonds then & it may not go too smoothly. Maybe Cherokee will be right & we will go down the tubes before Mexico.

SDRer__A ( To speak of the dollar being devalued... ) ID#28594:

On this board- - at least- - we should rigorously decline to participate in Their mind- set games. I shall certainly endeavor to do better in the days ahead!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FH Hayek in a book on socialism titled The Fatal Conceit
spends an entire chapter on the ( mis ) appropriation of language
done in service to dubious ends. The words, that upon reflection
contain no meaning, he terms 'weasel- sucked eggs'. I guess that
applies to the dollar, devoid of content and uninhabited by presence,
a 'weasel- sucked' dollar.

Principles of free markets would argue that the more competition the lower the prices. How can there be more competition with government imposed labor shortages? Some interesting links from the Bureau of Labor Statistics to illustrate my point. Go to the home page and link to projections to see the growth areas.

Bureau of Labor Statistics Home Page
http://www.bls.gov/blshome.htm

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm accountants search hit
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos035.htm mining engineers search hit
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm physicians search hit
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm attorneys search hit
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos055.htm economists search hit

James- Thanks .Silver sure looks like a strange Animal- Away to find big waves on a frozen lake.

Themissinglink: I think that a much lager impact of the downward move in gold versus the upward move in gold on gold funds is understandable. I think it is associated with "emotional reaction of investors" which results in delayed upward movement in gold mutual fund value. People with money invested in gold funds follow the price of gold more closely and when the price keeps coming down they pull the money out in close correlation to price decline. This forces a fund manager to sell stocks at unfavorable price to satisfy the redemption requirements. As a matter of fact, most likely selling shares in companies which experience the minimum decline to cut the losses and this depresses the value of the fund even more. When the price of the gold goes up, the inflow of money into fund is not so instantaneous. It needs to go up much more to catch investors attention, so the reaction is delayed. However once the money start flowing in, the up- trend is much more steeper that what you see in pure physical gold.

As far as gold company filling for chapter 11 bankruptcy, its not always the bad news. It depends if you are in it for a long run or short term. If underlying fundamentals of the company are in a good shape, and problem is mostly in how the company was managed, many companies experience a remarkable come back. I made some money in a high tech area when the company going through chapter 11 experienced 10 fold increase of its stock in about 3 years. I am not an expert to judge Pegasus or Eco Bay to made a determination if this can be a case, but I saw it happening in other cases.

223: don't understand your question- - I don't think. There is no competion in the provision of Canadain medicine- - its ag'in the law. Everybody gets the same medical care regardless of abiltiy to pay and MDs cannot charge their patients directly.

a.j. your 10:35 on PATRIOTS, bravo, well spoke sir. Contains all that which I most admire about your constitution. I hope America soon becomes once again The home of the brave and land of the free, I believe many here at kitco form the vanguard of that movement.

Earl: thank you for your gracious post @ 11:13 in defence of Mozel. I understand and share your views on the abhorance of wars and the part our fetid gobmints play in their genesis and execution.

Mozel I apologise for my intemperate response earlier. In view of Earls explanation I now know I took your remarks in the wrong vein. Even as I posted earlier, I also wanted to thank you then for your thought- provoking posts. I wish to do that now. Your view on the role of gold both historically and currently is refreshing and unique, I am grateful for your contributions.

No Chocolate for Camdesuss!

Just wanted to tell you
that I respect and like your
well- balanced way of thinking.

Then it came down just as quickly. I didn't here any news. Also the dollar has started to breakdown. Why was Japan up over 900 points?

News follow price moves.
Give'em some time.

thanks

No chocolate for bad guys all over the world.

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/iraq.htx?source= htx/http2_mw

One confusion is I don't have a list of the players. I was under the impression that Miro was living in the US and you were discussing US rules changes. My question was basically how can a government regulate some aspects of the marketplace and its people not anticipate further regulation in unwanted areas. Perhaps still a bit over abstract?

But since you are Canadian perhaps you can answer another question more easily. Rumor has it the US is flooded with persons from Mexico who need medical care and social services. They obtain care in our system, either paying for it or getting charity or government mandated services. Rumor also has it that Canadians who can pay for care come to the US as well. How many US and Mexican citizens go to Canada for such free services?

If the two "rogue" traders are buying the physical silver out of the warehouse that is completely legal. Under the "Corn Products Test" it must be shown that the purpose of buying the commodity was mainly to effect price. Proving a mental state is very difficult especially when the peosecution has the burden of proof. All the defendants have to state is that they think silver is a good long term investment..and poof the cause of action is gone. I dont know how Martin Armstrong can help in the case as he can not testify as to state of mind. All he can say is that in his opinion acquiring 2 billion ozs of physical silver proves manipulative intent. Got news for you it wont carry the day. My guess is Martin has been paid handsomely by those who will be caught dead short when the March contract comes off. I am surprised a big deal would be made out of something that to any commodities attorney can be seen as a non starter. I think the real manipulators are those who are making noise about a non starter legal action to rescue them from their positions.

Interesting also Martin referred to two rogue traders/ obviously given the three month lease rate of 9.13% the Rogue traders are not scared ( and they shouldnt be ) / if they in fact exist. When will the defendants be named ..my guess as an attorney is never since even if the facts are as alleged it patently does not state a cause of action. The Hunts were a different situation
as they clearly violated exchange rules by exceeding position limits on Comex contracts by using relatives accounts to increase there purchasing power. They did not buy the physical metal. They were in clear violation of the law. My friends if youve got the money you can buy all the silver you want. The real reason for the shortage is nine years of deficits. My guess is somebody big is in trouble on the short side and is puffing smoke to see if silver will be dislodged before the March first notice day.

Again there is nothing illegal about buying alot of physical silver if you have the money. The people in London repport no unusual activity in Silver. Even Martin Armstrong must have his price. Further isnt he the guy who said gold could go to 1200 by 2003?

223: We are partially in 2 themes here. My Physicians comments came from a response to Ted about 9- 10 am this morning. I still don't understand you question- - first para. With regard to the influx of "foreigners" trying get free medical care it was a major problem until recently. Some US citizens had obtained medial cards near the border towns. Also many east Europeans were coming as visitors after the Berlin wall fell - - using relatives ID and getting free medical care. As a result it is a problem to get a new medical card- - lots of bureaucracy to prove who I am and a new card complete with picture ( a scary thought ) is now being introduced that I expect to get next time I renew my drivers license. Still don't get you first question

That whole thing with silver is a bunch of BS plain and simple. Buy it, buy mining stocks and tuck them away. You will be well rewarded in the next 18 months. IMNSVHO

No Chocolate for Camdesuss!

Discretion is the better part of valor or is MA throwing THE HAIL MARY PASS.

Oriz and Gazebo
I bought RYO, they just finalized the last of the financing needed for the Kemess mine. It will have a per oz cost of $79 after a $1 credit for copper. They can still make good money even if gold goes much lower.Good Luck and let me know if you have any oter good investments.

I HAVE MY DOUBTS ABOUT PROFESSOR ARMSTRONG. I have been following him for well over a year and he said eariler that gold would get to $1200. I will have to get the entirity of his interview.

It is Armstrong who is attempting to manipulate the price. I am staying long unless I see evidence in lease rate ( drop ) and/or continued increases in COMEX physical.

Digdeep, I got a pretty good chunk of RYO stock.
I hope it will work, I hope....and hope...

There were some rumors lately, may be its even
correct, that Mrs.Witte solds 1.2 mil. of her
RYO shares. Insider selling never looks good, even
if it was a forced sale, as explained.

Otherwise, I hope...

Sell RYO. Witte sold most of all her shares. RYO definetely
going below $1.00

What is the name of the mega- rich family in Europe that holds tons of gold? Rothchilds? or something like that.

tHE FOLLOWING RECOMENDATIONS MADE BY pAT McKEOUGH The Successful Investor. TVX has run into difficulties with the Olympias mine in Greece but its solid management and wide range of international projects. Same type of recomendations for RYO .To aggressive investors who can accept the risk.If you already own golds that make up to no more than 10% of your portfolio, hold but d ont buy more. From The Successful Investor e mail success@rogers.wave.ca
Excellent letter made excellent return in 1997 following his advice.

Not "almost all of her shares", it's not true.
But yoy never know, RYO may go below $1 indeed,
if POG plunges again.

WILL NOT SELL.

I refuse to be a second guessing armchair quarterback.I have no doubt Bush made the right decision to end the gulf war when he did, given the circumstances and the fact that the "war" turned out to be nothing more than an unhonerable "turkey shoot".There's no argument from me that they got what they deserved,in fine fashion, but to have gone further would have been inhumane and unAmerican.
Saddam's durable impunity has gone far enough!It's too bad he can't just be surgically eliminated, but that won't happen. I for one would support an invasion of Bahgdad by 10000 paratroopers ( Rangers,Seals, G.B.s etc ) immediately after a softening of air defences. The only reason this could work is the lack of weapons held by ordinary citizens.Of course the previously displayed cowardice and ineptitude of the Iraqui ground forces can't hurt either.
I wondeif the Iraqi people may, in fact, welcome the americans as liberators, since Saddam's demise would lead to immediate lifting of the sanctions, and the resumption of what could certainly be a very wealthy
economy.
I also wonder what you guys think this scenario could do to the price of gold. I believe it would spike immediately, but I've not a clue as what the longer term might look like.
( Incidentally, I'm aware that assasinations of Heads of State is "illegal" in the US, but that has'nt stoped them from trying, namely Momhar and Saddam, at least most recently )

"Again there is nothing illegal about buying alot of physical silver if you have the money. " - If this was true then why did the hunts get into trouble?? How about Sumitomo and Copper? Didn't they buy physical copper have store it in Asia? Didn't the LME fine them? It's manipulation in my opinion, also. If it was not manipulation then I would not have read about it in the Wall Street Journal which claimed they were doing it to force the price up. Not that the WSJ is the final say which makes them bad but simply that the group buying was blatant about it. Just my opinion.

Oris, I meant to ask you this question for a while. It relates to my experience as an immigrant from ex- East Block country and my feeling about gun ownership. You made a few posts indicating that you own guns and I wondered if you went through the same process and feeling about gun ownership as I did. Most of citizens in the US dont have this feeling and it shows up in anti- gun movement, etc.

In any communist country, or country with other form of dictatorship, a confiscation of guns is the first thing done by the government to suppress any potential defiance of powers. While most men are exposed to a rigorous training on handling guns while serving in military due to a mandatory draft, they never can own a gun. If you never faced a gun pointed at you by representative of "powers" trying to suppress your rights, you dont know much about feeling of hopelessness. There were many pictures in the press showing Czechs going through "velvet" revolution, Chinese facing tanks with bare hands ( just like Czechs in 68 when East Block armies invaded Czechoslovakia to suppress their desire to be free ) . Few of my friends died that year. This was not because "thats the way they like to face things" that was because the government took all necessary steps that they would not face any resistance.

Well, after I came to the US, and got my citizenship, I joined the crowd of guns owning people with thinking "you will have to pray it from my dead finger". No, I am no gun touting guy, I am a law abiding guy, shoot my guns here and there on my friends farm, and I prefer resolving issues through negotiation, political process, and law enforcement. However, due to my past experiences, I will never face with bare hands any suppressive force trying to take away my rights. You have to experience it to know what that means.

There are many abuses of guns in the US, however, it makes me wonder how much of the freedom in the US is preserved just due to the fact that people will not go "quietly to the night".

Manipulation under the Commodity Exchange Act includes any thing done to only effect price. Clearly the Bandying about stories of lawsuits is intended to effect price if in fact there is no basis to the claim or indeed no real defendant. Martin Armstrong has revealed that he is going to London to testify against two rogue traders. If this is the case then apparently an action has been brought where are the defendants. OR he is cooperating with a CFTC investigation which is supposed to be kept confidential. Either way, we should know the defendants or M. Armstrong is revealing what is supposed to be an undercover matter in public/ he wouldnt be doing this to effect price would he? If there is no basis regarding the manipulation I will bring a cause of action against Martin Armstrong and those requesting his, I am am sure, expensive services. If this claim has no basis then their actions are almost by definition actionable under the CEA. I am sure we will hear more wailing and gnashing of teeth as March first notice draws near.

The news of wittes sale came out over a month ago and it was force on her for margin. Since then they have successfully contracted for their cooper and received development funds from the government and finalized their funding for the kemess project. I dont believe it can go sour after all that. She sold her shares for about 1 1/16 and its at 1 7/16 today. It is definately on the uptrend. If gold retreats it will go down some too, just like the rest of them. It was up almost 10% yesterday.

A logistics problem without the steady hand of an INCO.
This international crap fits the likes of RTZ and PDG.
I liked ABX and NGC better when they were mainly confined to Nevada.

What is the name of the mega- rich family in Europe that holds tons of gold? Rothchilds?

Rothchild. Yes.

grant - I've pondered many times over why we held back and did not depose Saddam & put him on trial for crimes against humanity. It is a no- brainer.

I have concluded the our American "leaders" very cynically left Saddam in power to both be a threat to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and also to keep US forces there as "protection". In reality we're just an unacknowledged army of occupation in Saudi Arabia. No doubt, "we" want to make damn sure "we" control the price of oil.

A third reason is that when Iran decides to come out waging war, Iraq will be in the way and will buy us two or three weeks time as the Iranians chew their way through them.

Pity for the Marsh Arabs and Northen Kurds whom we exhorted to freedom and then left to die. A proud American moment.

Haggis: The 15- 20 Trillion figure for unfunded liabilities of the US Government has been pubished in WSJ and elsewhere. Among those liabilities are financial institution guarantees, projections for socialized medicine spending ( medicare, medicaid ) , mortgage lender guarantees, etc., etc. I'll look for a link with it if I get the time, but it's not a secret figure.

I'm glad the thread over jingoism and such is over and appreciate everybody's concluding remarks.

The point made I think by SDR that speaking of devaluation of the dollar is participation in the lie is so true. I recommend everybody look back to the link to the Armstrong article posted by Haggis last night and my comments on Armstrong's short history of "money" in the United States of America.

I have seen numerous posts in various places stating that all of our problems would be solved if government just created interest free "money".

If you read the Armstrong history of "money" in the US, you will learn that unless interest was offered as an inducement to take the government's paper, the American people refused it. Interest is the lynchpin of the "Paper Chase". The "money" issued by every nation state with a few small exceptions is a promise of payment of interest on debt. Without this debt and interest there is just no bookkepping possible. But with it, the forms of bookkeeping can be observed and the fiction and charade that "money" is somehow tied to production and wealth can be kept up.

Now the "paper dollar" is the center of this system for the world. When the world needs liquidity or the economy needs purchasing power the US Treasury in concert with AG obliges. But everytime it obliges, the cost of the interest increases and taxes from the people must be collected to pay this interest. This same thing is going on in every country currency. The only thing different about the "paper dollar" is that the US Treasury via IMF & World Bank has a world liquidity responsibility in addition to its country economy responsibility.

The interest cost or the cost of carrying debt is a granite ceiling on every fiat currency being issued. It just rises inexorably with government spending in excess of receipts. But, if government takes more out of the economy than it puts in, it is taking away purchasing power and liquidity and shrinking eceonomic activity. You can never pay down debt with debt. If all you ever did was pay Master Card with Visa and vice versa, could you ever get out of debt ?

Haggis has said that gold is essential to international trade. Maybe ultimately. But since 1971 when the US refused to settle accounts in gold, it has not been. Who was going to collect from the US by force ? If China refused to settle in gold, who would collect from it. Physical possession and the means to transport securely and to maintain physical possession are key problems. Fei Ching or flying money is a way around this and governments are none the wiser. Do you think the Chinese sales of missles are going through the BIS ?

Gold standard is like dollar devaluation. You either settle accounts in gold or you don't.

A gold based trading system would work something like this. A country puts gold on deposit and sellers to it register their interest when they ship. If there is not enough gold on deposit for the shipper to register his interest against, he would not ship and until more gold was put on deposit the gold short country could not buy.

But who will have physical possession of the gold and how will they protect it. The honest bankers of Switzerland are the only people that come to mind for this role. ( Nazi gold defamation disinformation, anyone ? )

There can be no gold basis for international trade until the problem created by Nixon is solved and the US has no incentive to solve it.

The Hunts fraudulently exceeded position limits on the exchange which did not have anything to do with the physical mkt. Sumotomo was also trading on the LME and got over its head in violation of exchange rules. If one is simply purchasing the physical metal because they think it is a good investment that is completely legal. Sumotomo and the Hunts were leveraged in the market. Here it sounds like unleveraged buying of the real thing. Sorry but when demand exceeds supply prices rise. The bogusness of the allegations is the action in the lease rates rising in spite of the ridiculous baseless blather. Either there is no big buyer or there is and he knows it is perfectly legal. Its funny to watch these guys get in a dither about a measily quick one dollar rise in silver. When the cash market takes over because of shortage than the derivitive boys lose power. Nine years of deficits and a smart Big "investor" physical buyer will do it to em every time.

Except for the comment about the majority not owning guns and being "antis". This is what the press would have you believe. The press also claims there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 million firearms in the US. This would indicate that a majority of Americans may own them.I , however, believe the number to be MUCH higher than this.
The question is, what would the world be like now if the most powerful government in the world ( with it's most powerful military in the world ) were not held in check by the morality of it's armed citizenry?

I just had a good laugh at a cartoon in the Washington Post today. There is a couple watching TV comentator saying " an Asian financial expert said their money problem could be solved if Clinton would return all the campain contribution they gave him"

Let's Kill the Iraqi Leader Gold will spike.I guess we can find everybody at Kitco.- - - - Back to the studio for ear- thumping innuendoes

Poorboys: Is Simcoe frozen over yet?

Digdeep: NO REASON TO TRUST ARMSTRONG, 280 WAS THE BOTTOM !!!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Read my earleir post:

Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 14:36
Ziva ( GOLD IS AT THE BOTTOM ( Dec.29.1997 ) ) ID#302251:
My husband said that from all the famous psychics in the USA,
only Sean David Morton has 100% accuracy rate
about Stock Market trends.
My husband wish to pass to you that this scientist/psychic
said on Dec - 29 - 1997 that:
...now is the time to buy GOLD.
Sooooo Faaaaar he is correct.
I listened to that interview at:
http://ww2.audionet.com/artbell/archive.html#dec97
Click on Dec- 29

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

USE YOUR BRAIN 'DIGDEEP',
DIG DEEP IN YOUR BRAIN !!!
This wonderful website
is a great place to be
and many great minds participate in it.
Would not it be logically a great place
TO SPREAD DISINFORMATION TOO ???

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

So relax, and go and listened to that interview.
After all,
ONLY FOOLS WILL ARGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS 100% ACCURACY RECORD.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Sumotomo was leveraged in the mkt and nearky went under and disrupted the LME by their forced liquidations. Re silver in London the LME reports no unusual activity in silver. Why because the buyer is probably paying full up off exchange thus no leverage to make a legal investment. This is causing a problem for the derivitive boys who may be forced to liquidate leveraged shorts worldwide. Nine year deficits will do it every time.

The WSJ is a mouthpiece and is just repeating the words of those it interviews. If there is no basis to these allegations and silver prices are suppressed I will bring an action against Armstrong and his supporters perhaps even on a class action basis if possible.

We both have exactly the same feeling.

Abuses of guns in the U.S. is a fact, but I do not
need to tell you that even in the U.S.S.R. ( no private
gun ownership was allowed, except for "authorized" hunters -
you know this stuff ) , bad guys ALWAYS were armed.
You know this, I know this, but some part of the U.S.
population seems not to know a simple fact that
bad guys use guns for living, have money and will always
be able to get guns. If KGB and etc. could not prevent
criminals in the U.S.S.R. from getting guns - I don't know
who can.

Yes, you right, people need to be armed to keep government
in check. It sounds very strong, but it is such a proven fact,
that only a complete idiot can question it.

And yes, you right, good people need guns for self defense.
unless, of course, EVERYBODY has its "own cop" 24 HOURS A DAY
on duty. Sounds like it's a practical alternative, right?

I know history too well to be fooled about it. I am not
gonna be empty- handed if my life and freedom is in danger.
I am trained shooter and mentally normal person, I got
handguns, shorguns and rifles, even AK- 47 which I think
is the best weapon around, technically speaking.

I do not believe that US goverment wants me to loose my
freedom, but being armed, I feel that I have some protection,
just in case...

And finally, thanks The U.S. Constituation for this right.

We have completed an option and joint venture agreement with Echo Bay to explore our property in the Timmins gold camp. Work has already commenced and it will continue due to financing support from another entity. There is a possibility that Echo will be taken over by a co. such as Homestake. This may save the day for you. However, if you cash out you may entertain the possibility of taking a loss and making it up and moreso by purchasing Orvana ( ORV:TO ) ; it trades at about $1.80 and I can guarantee you that it is a four banger in about six months. If you wish to make greater gains with a little higher risk, go for Chesbar ( CBI:MTL ) . I have many others but these two should have fairly immediate response IF THE PRICE OF GOLD EDGES UP OVER THE NEXT TWO MONTHS. Hang in there and you will be rewarded.

Nothing to be proud of. Estimates of 100000- 500000 Iraqis killed,guys forced there under pain of death. The mass surrenders illustrated thier commitment.It was truly pitiful.A moral man should be abhorred by the thought.
But this lack of commitment is precicely why I think Saddam could be tagged with minimal losses.
Your point about long term occupation is valid, though, so gettin Saddam may actually be counterproductive ( from that perspective )

Even at the beginning of Louis XVI.s reign ( Ordinance of July 13th, 1777 ) every man in good health from 16 to 60 years of age, if without means of subsistence and not practising a trade, is to be sent to the galleys. Of the same nature are the statute of Charles V. for the Netherlands ( October, 1537 ) , the first edict of the States and Towns of Holland ( March 10, 1614 ) , the Plakaat of the United Provinces ( June 26, 1649 ) .

Thus were the agricultural people, first forcibly expropriated from the soil, driven from their homes, turned into vagabonds, and then whipped, branded, tortured by laws grotesquely terrible, into the discipline necessary for the wage system.

The constant generation of a relative surplus- population keeps the law of supply and demand of labour, and therefore keeps wages, in a rut that corresponds with the wants of capital.

The Statute of Labourers, of Edward III, 1349. The Statute was passed at the urgent instance of the House of Commons. A Tory says naively:  Formerly the poor demanded such high wages as to threaten industry and wealth. Next, their wages are so low as to threaten industry and wealth equally and perhaps more, but in another way ( The Statute of Apprentices of Elizabeth, ten days imprisonment is decreed for him that pays the higher wages, but twenty- one days for him that receives them )

A statute of 1360 increased the penalties and authorized the masters to extort labour at the legal rate of wages by corporal punishment. All combinations, contracts, oaths, by which masons and carpenters reciprocally bound themselves, were declared null and void. Coalition of the labourers is treated as a heinous crime from the 14th century to 1825, the year of the repeal of the laws against Trades Unions.

**** 1825 USofA agitation for a 10 hour day begins with a great strike by 600 Boston carpenters. Master carpenters denounce the strike, warning of the unhappy influence of change on apprentices by seducing them from that course of industry and of the .....many temptations and improvident practices from which journeymen are safe so long as they work from sunrise to dusk *** ( 1998 50 & 60 hour work weeks ! )

**** 1831 USofA New York has its first labour demonstrations as stone cutters riot in protest against the use of stone cut at Sing Sing prison for buildings of the new University of the City of New York.

****1833 USofA New York trade societies join to form the General Trades Union, trade unionism begins to supersede workingmens political parties, but the movement will collapse in the financial panic and economic depression of 1837.

****Many banks have deceived bank inspectors as to the amount of GOLD backing their banknotes. Employers pay workers in paper SHINPLASTERS of dubious value and often counterfeit, the depression reduces thousands to starvation.

****1837 USofA Congress enacts a gag law to suppress debate on the slavery issue.

****1837 USofA Congress authorizes the issue of U.S. Treasury notes not to exceed $10 million, in a move to ease the nations financial crisis.

In the 16th century, the condition of the labourer had, as we know, become much worse. The money wage rose, but not in proportion to the depreciation of money ** and the corresponding rise in the prices of commodities. ** Wages, therefore, in reality fell. The Justice of The Peace were empowered to fix certain wages and to modify them according to the time of the year and the price of commodities.

Finally, the act of Parliament of June 29 1871, made a pretence of removing the last traces of this class of legislation by legal recognition of Trades Unions. But an act of Parliament of the same date ( an act to amend the criminal law relating to violence, threats, and molestation ) , re- established, in point of fact, the former state of things in a new shape. By this Parliamentary escamotage the means which the labourers could use in a strike or lock- out were withdrawn from the laws common to all citizens, and placed under exceptional penal legislation, the interpretation of which fell to the masters themselves in their capacity as Justice of The Peace.

Not content with this treachery, the Great Liberal Party allowed the English Judges, ever complaisant in the service of the ruling classes, to dig up again the earlier laws against CONSPIRACY, and to apply them to coalitions of labourers. We see that only against its will and under the pressure of the masses did the English Parliament give up the laws against Strikes and Trades Unions.

Look Back- - - - See Forward Take Care.

We will talk today. Have your coffee or tea and bring a clear mind, as we will think of oil and gold. Yes, we will think thoughts not spoken for simple persons.

Later I will post, then we will truly consider.

Today, I stood in the sand and looked for life in the heavens. But even the stars offer no life as a strong body and a full mind. It is a fine night for a man of small thought, for he can consider GOLD.

Where would be the best place to purchase an assult rifle- leaglally or not. What is the best available. What are the laws concerning owning and purchasing these weapons?

May I get your agenda for the coming weeks. I dislike scanning
kitco to verify if you're there or not.

oris: I think I may meet criteria. In Toronto only police, armoured car drivers and a few security guards can carry hand guns and all rifles have to be registered. No automatic weapons can be owned except by collectors and such guns must be licensed. About 40 citizens carry hand guns and must be licensed as a result of some temporary threat to their life. Others with guns are criminals. The number of deaths by guns in Toronto is usually less than fifty and is composed of criminals killing each other and being killed by police. There is no police state here and the Gov seems under the control of the citizenry. I know that other circumstance prevail in the US and without stirring the moral superiority issue again- - can I ask you how you explain this dramatic contradiction between the US and Canadian scenes?

Kitcoits:
You have woderful knowledge about GOLD.
But some of you are not well updated about the Middle East.

The reason why we did not kill Saddam was that he
black mailed us and Israel with nuclear weapons.

WHAT DID HE HAVE TO LOOSE ???

If Shwartsikohfph did not stop in the last minute
Washington and Tel Aviv would have been FLAT.

Our Inteligence knew that he could do it
so we stopped in a hurry.

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR ON CNN ?

Gold @ $291. Oil @ $16.48 What next? I'm sipping tea.

Selby- Simcoe is frozen but I hate thin ice|||||||||| Look at those skidoo kids that went down at lake Scugog or whatever - Away to find more wine ug ug.

My coffee is ready.
I AM VERY HAPPY YOU ARE BACK.

Re: your 16:36 drivel. Is'nt their a psychics website?

You may be right. No doubt there were a lot of people who totally discounted any rumours of manipulation when silver was at 40. Good luck

IF THE BIG BUYERS ARE taking PHYSICAL silver offshore say to the mideast or far east. Good luck trying to get them to stop buying or for that matter liquidate. However, they shouldnt have to as paying up for physical as a good investment is ok unless ONE can prove manipulative intent and ONE has the B Of PROOF.

The world is full of psychics.
All of us are psychics.
Most of us are ununformed about our abilities.

The trick is to find a GOOD psychic
who is scientifically trained.

ARE YOU ONE OF THESE FOOLS WHO WILL ARGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS 100% ACCURACY ?

Ziva- Drunk as a skunk.What's you're excuse?

Digdeep Re: your 15.32. I have'nt followed M.A. closely but am quite sure that the 1200 au that he predicted was for well into the next millennium.

What compells your employer to have you give us the revelations of the upcomming demise?

What is the purpose for the warning, and time spent to convince the ones with doubts with what you are forseeing?

Why have not we seen colaborating stories in the worlds media?

The Hunts didnt have the money to buy the physical silver to effect price so they used the exchange. The current buyer is buying the stuff outright and letting the market work. If they were buying derivitives with the type of money alleged then silver would be at 50 now. They are buying it for investment knowing that the mkt will rventually cover because of the LEVERAGE used on the short side. Physical silver is going into very strong hands through physical non leveraged purchases. The game is changing in its rules and the derivitive boys are losing a way to make money selling calls. I am sure they were burned in Dec and are launching the rumors to hopefully prevent a March repeat. Watch the 3 mo lease rate to tell you where the mkt is at. At 9% it indicates shortage. My guess is they can control things til about the end of Jan and then the fundamentals takeover.

Ive found the best place to shop for firearms is definately a gunshow.
The only way to purchase a rifle illegally ( at least where I live ) is
1 youre a convicted felon
2 youve ever been convicted of "domestic violence ( absolute bullshit )
3 you are aware that the gun offered for sale is stolen
Im still not sure what an "assault rifle" is even though I own a few.
At the present time the Russian or Chinese SKS is the most semi- auto rifle for the money,around $200, it's reasonably accurate, lightweight, and fires a readily available, reasonably effective midrange round.It'll keep 5- 7 guys' head down all day long if you know what youre doin and have enough ammo.
The M- 14/M1A is in my opinion the fiercest military individual issue shoulder fired weapon ever devised. It shoots 308 WIN, has been used by snipers out to 2500yds. ( Corlos Hathcock ) ,and is etremely reliable. The downsides are that it is heavier than some and quite pricey ( $1000+ )
If you dont have a good semi- auto rifle,GET ONE!

Time to buy a Silver Gun with Golden Bull- - its- - - Away to save Canada from the American Death rate.

100% accuracy for how many predictions? You no doubt know about the stopped clock being right twice a day. We have our own Kitco guru that I would put up against any of your psychics. Mr. Puetz has an unblemished record of ioo % accuracy....as a conrary indicator. Off for a walk into sunny Victoria.

Ziva, sorry but you information about intelligence reports on nuclear threads and it validity is not correct

Many here are very astute, show good judgement and deductive reasoning. Then there are those,

who are legends in their minds. May GODS grace shine on us all.

is a bit farfetched. If I were the political and military leader of a country being massivly invaded by a huge, overpowering enemy on my own soil, and I had nuclear weapons,I wouldnt hesitate to use them tactically. An intercontinental strike would have been suicide.

Like many people believe the WSJ and Martin Armstrong representing an obvious injured class /So many Soviet Citizens believed reports in Pravda about the health of the Soviet Economy and the wonders of Communism/reported for the benefit of those who would benefit from perpetuating such a perception.

The rights endowed by our creator were first secured on this continent in the Declarations of Rights made in states. The Bill of Rights in the Constitution is there to make secure from the federal government those rights already declared and secured in state constitutions. The States were formed by the people, the ultimate source of all sovereignty in American government, and the federal Constitution was made by grants of State sovereignty to the federal by the people.

As Patrick Henry said, there are two great engines of government: the purse and the sword. We have lost control of the government purse for the time being to the politicians and God help us all if they have the only sword. State legislatures are the key to reining in the federal government. And demanding that the State Legislatures resume election of US Senators is the first place to start. The State Legislatures have that option. The people just have to demand that they assert it.

To the Canadian I can only say this: your whole security lies in the chance that evil men disguised as good do not get control of your government. For, if they do, you are defenceless. You have insurance on your house for fire, and on your car, but you have no insurance against bad government.

can I ask you how you explain this dramatic contradiction
between the US and Canadian scenes?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Grew up on the Canadian border for first thirty years.
Hockey, curling, couple of the best participatory sports on
earth. Re: the long running, great disparity between U.S.
and Canadian murder rates. Skipping speculations as to
whys and wherefores, I would note the trends are converging
and whatever is feeding the breakdown of that sort of
restraint is contagious.

The reason you do not have a police state may be precicely that the US STILL HAS HER ARMED CITIZENRY. Democracy will only exist with supervision.

If they are buying the physical & moving it around to create the appearance of shortages, then I think the authorities may have a problem with that.

I lost a little on silver options years ago & subsequently found out that it is the most manipulated of the metals. Since then I have restricted my futures speculating to currencies were I feel there is more transparency & better odds. I'll probably try to get on board the au train within the next year. Again...good luck.

The best place to purchase any weapon is a gun show. Buy from individuals at these shows with cash. No papers or registration of any kind. I've bought all my weapons this way.

There are two ways to go on rifles. Expensive and cheap. A Chinese made SKS is cheap ( $120 ) and the ammo is also cheap ( $.10/round ) . The steel in the gun is of lesser quality and the barrel life is around a thousand rounds before losing it's accuracy.

My preference is the Bushmaster AR- 15 ( $900 ) . This is the civilian version of the M- 16. There are other manufacturers but Bushmaster barrels are chrome- lined and will stay accurate up to 5000 rounds. The preferred models are the pre- bans. They are legal as to flash- hiders, collapsing stocks, etc. These weapons fire Remington .223, which is extremely accurate.

There are more expensive weapons out there but the AR- 15 is very versatile and accurate. Do not buy any weapon if you are not going to put decent optics on it. A good rule of thumb is the optics should run nearly as much or more than the weapon itself. My preference for scopes on the AR- 15 is the Trijicon ACOG series ( $700 ) . It comes with a tritium night cross for low light shooting.

KCT

Sorry guys, I did not have any idea that my post may turn this forum for gold investors into discussion on assault weapons. It was not my intention. Maybe it should be taken off the air?

Wonder what Ted Butler thinks about M.A. allegations of a Silver Squeeze?

I have a Dogma on my front lawn- - - Away to dump little guns.

Mozel: Your insight, grasp of history and presentation is excellent. I appreciate your efforts very much. Please continue.

ROR: If you are right that our current Silver corner is due to some deep pockets buying the physical metal, I do not see the difference between this and buying gold bullion. In fact, I do not see how any lawsuits would win in this situation, as I have never heard of trading limits on commodities purchases off the exchange.
I guess the other side of the argument could go as follows: If you bought up all the SuperBowl tickets, or electric generators after a hurricane hit, and then sold them back at exorbitant rates, that would be considered price gouging. Legal or illegal is a matter of context, isn't it? And, if there are no laws, technically illegal is irrelevant.
Also, reading between the lines regarding your comments, I would conclude that - since there are no time expiration dates with outright purchase of a commodity - - that would be by far the most safe way to corner a market anyway, as long as you had deep enough pockets to cover the cost, and could afford storage expenses.
I am no expert on the Sumitomo copper fiasco. How did it differ, and why was that considered illegal? As I recall a trader who tried to blow the whistle was murdered, but the Sumitomo copper hoarding became pulbic news anyway.

I dont deny its an effective weapon, but the inherant accuracy of the M- 14/7.62x51 combo affords a several hundred yd. advantage.
I would also opine that in the "role of assault rifle", any optics have more potential of being dangerously out of adjustment than iron sights. Scopes should be used for long range target shooting and hunting, by snipers, and by those who are visually impaired.If you cannot hit a man sized target at 600 yds.,every time, with iron sights, PRACTICE!

I dont deny its an effective weapon, but the inherant accuracy of the M- 14/7.62x51 combo affords a several hundred yd. advantage.
I would also opine that in the "role of assault rifle", any optics have more potential of being dangerously out of adjustment than iron sights. Scopes should be used for long range target shooting and hunting, by snipers, and by those who are visually impaired.If you cannot hit a man sized target at 600 yds.,every time, with iron sights, PRACTICE!

James: Your comment about Silver being more manipulated than gold is interesting. One thing we can say about gold is that if the elephants ( the Central Banks ) decide to support the gold price, a gold rally is unstoppable. The only problem is knowing when the elephants start the stampede in the other direction. Us little gold bugs get squashed pretty easy if we guess wrong.

The head of the company, Margaret Witte, sold half her position during December ( 1.25 million shares ) .
Not a good sign, she must know something.........

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 16:44
ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:

Just checking in and it was good to see you. It certainly has been an interesting week since last we talked. I certainly was doubting your comment about 280, but the events turned rather qickly thereafter.

I noticed that Barons' Abelson had a strong article on oil.

Going to get tea.

Mozel- Big Oil controls Canada Like The U.S .So you may scalp Indians anywhere ,anytime but when the blood flows your innocence is Vietnam. Away to find truth in a world of condors

http://www.e- gold.com
admin@e- gold.com

http://www.gold- eagle.com

Gold holds at $280 as you said; is the BIS now supporting the price?

Technical signs indicate both oil AND gold are bottoming now. I assume you will say this is not a coincidence. End of Ramadan approaches?

ANOTHER: I would be very interested in your response to my comments regarding why "paper gold" trading cannot distort the price of physical gold significantly - - although price swings might be increased or decreased somewhat depending on the trading - - but not enough to shut down the gold trading market. My sources were D.A., a commodity trader who posts regularly here, and knows the markets well, as well as Frank Veneroso, who is a world renowned consultant in the the gold markets. Incidentally, F Veneroso did say one thing you said before his Canarc Dec 9, 1997 teleconference that I am referring to - - namely that the Central banks historically traded gold through the BIS. More recently the CB's were selling/loaning gold on the open market where the activity was less discrete, presumably leading to excessive short trading and physical buying - - to the dismay of the large Central Banks such as Germany and France, as well as the BIS .

Why not help us by revealing some of your information sources, as I have? I realize you have raised concerns about confidentiality on your part - - but if you refer to sources on the net unrelated to any individuals you have dealings with, is that a conflict of interest?

ANOTHER:
Would you please be kind to include in your next post:
What is the effect of drug money on the price of gold.

I think there is an extra space after the hyphen in both posts. Once removed the sites work.

ANOTHER: I couldn't resist. You certainly have a way to attract everyone's attention.

I have just posted a program that will allow anyone to submit a
Kitco document ( postings that we ordinarily read ) and receive back a corrected copy that has the e- mail address and the url fixed.

As an example, http://www.e- gold.com and admin@e- gold produced
unusable anchors. A reader can save a copy of the postings, then
put it through the program at the following site, and he will have
back a document with these two errors fixed. Actually, it is not
worth the trouble to do all this for an ordinary user. But I used it to learn a bit about what's really in a document, so that the error will not be propagated in the indexer. Also, I needed the capability to up load a file.

Both the indexer and this program are reachable via
http://www.acs.com/~hong

Bart: you will see some programmers' mumbo jumbo in the document ( program ) that does the corrections. That is there so that your programmers might see how to clean up the postings that you might already have filed away.

Back to the indexing robot work ...

Jung

OK, WHILE ALL OF US WAITING FOR 'ANOTHER's NEXT POST,
let us read something interesting:
http://www.cninews.com/

I was wondering if I was reading to much into the little parable, but I see you got the same drift.

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 18:25
Jung ( To Bart and others ... ) ID#237164:

Sorry Jung it doesn't work ... the url I mean.

http://www.acs.com/~hong

James I personally do not think there is a big buyer/ but if there is and they move the stocks to Tehran or Pyongyang or Beijing/ what are the "authorities" really going to do. If there is a big buyer this investigation is not scaring them one bit/probably because they know they are beyond anyones jurisdiction ergo lease rates soaring. The Hunts lived here and were only in the comex.

Jtf: Buying the physical metal for investment purposes is completely legal. Sumotomo involved mkt leverage otherwise no failure and losses on LME. This alleged buyer is just buyin the stuff and storin it some place/ no possibility of LME type sumotomo type failure.

Refer: I just resent, people using this website to spread disinformation.
I respectfully strongly disagree with Miro ( 17:20 ) .
http://www.cseti.org/programs/quote.htm

Grant, I don't mind, but I think some other people might. I am just trying to consider them. Oh well, I guess I am trying to be too nice ;- )

Was wondering why everything is in a parable. Some would suggest it allows you laterial movement in your predictions. If you have information it would be taken more seriously if it was concise and to the point, otherwise skepticism grows.

I can't believe an exponent of gold would provide your recent posts!

ANOTHER: It is said that: If the camel's nose should enter the tent, the whole body will surely follow. The big question is: how far from the tent is the camel's nose?

We wait like strangers at the nobleman's door, eager to discover the secrets within, but afraid to peek in lest we offend... yet the nobleman has iron shutters on his door.

Interesting artifact stuff; too bad it turned out not to be made of silver or gold; then maybe we would know where some of this stuff is going!

It is very cruel and inhumane to tell already hypersensitive goldbugs to go and get stimulants in the form of caffeine and not return in a timely manner. Thank you for your insight and thoughtful remarks. Now please, let the show begin!

Nice tact.

Breaking News From HollyWood- Another returns to Kitco- - - The picture has a thousand words but the substance again is GARBLE .P.S. Ted- Don't ask me about garble my knees are shaking like a rock star waiting for the truth OH PLEASE SPEAK ANOTHER .

Truth lives among the eagles. Ask the Cherokee.


Haggis has posted that there is a book value for the gold held by the Bank of International Settlements. Any clues on how what that book value might be ? Or how to learn what the booked value of the German and other CB gold is carried at ?

Since, as AG has said, there is unlimited credit available to a nation state issuer of a fiat currency, there is more than enough credit sloshing around to buy up all the silver or gold at any price. Is this another way of saying the metals market is already cornered ? Taking physical possession simply means you have to pay the cost of storage, security, and interest on the credit. That would seem to be a small premium to pay for control of the price of a commodity.

If I take the metal to a scret vault, am I "creating the appearance of shortage" or actually creating a shortage ? If you want it at $10 and I won't sell, I am creating a shortage or just an appearance ?

When gold trading co- exists with the "Paper Chase", the temptation to play CB and get substance for nothing is a constantly watched opportunity. Remember Jay Gould anyone ?

The speculators are short and the commercials are long. But if you were going to make the commercials bid your price to get metal, wouldn't you first depress the price as low as possible to make your long money go as far as possible when you turned on the market ? Is somebody out there calculating how much long money it would take to break the CB control of gold's price ? If you could make the CB's pay your price for gold, wouldn't that be the ultimate inflation protection ?

Just speculating.

Unless we have a defendant identified in this silver case soon, the mkt will realize the allegations are unfounded or at least untenable and go through the roof. If there is a big silver buyer remember he owns unleveraged physical and it is the SHORTS who ARE LEVERAGED ( thus the outcry ) . The accumulation or tightness in silver supply was not anticipated by the derivitive players and that is why they are crying foul. IE The new reality does not comport with their trading strategy in the unphysical derivitive market. Bring on March and let the lease rates rise while Martin Armstrong is, by his own admission, paid by those who were hurt by silver's rise. Now thats an independent source if I ever heard one.


James and JTF:
IF YOU were paid thousands like Martin Armstrong to say silver is manipulated to the upside should we believe his market opinion ( in spite of past accuracies ) re the PMs to be unbiased. Ans. OBVIOUSLY NO!! admit at least that much.

Ziva, you are certainly welcome to "I respectfully strongly disagree with Miro ( 17:20 ) . "

Lets keep it on that. If you are close to intelligence information than you certainly know that the only info. which makes it out, and is discussed in public, is "misinformation or speculation". For that reason lets close this discussion and forget what was said ( at least that's what I am doing )

do chickens have lips? only if you believe the paper- tiger
is fixing to climb higher....

do sharks have water- tight p_____s? damned right they do.....
salt infiltration is some serious sh!t!

what's then point? sh!t gets in more places than ANYONE would
believe....until the shark develops a salt- bubble- head- - - -

see- - - - - - - - - bubbles occur naturally in nature......only thing is...
they are the first eaten...gulp.......aarppp...yukkkk....nasty too!

more l;ater, as the absolut, absolutely takes over...fire- water...
woooo- - woooo- - woooo- - - - - - woooo- - woooo- - woooo- - - - the- call- of- nature..

cherokee!;- - riding- the- giants- as- if- they- were- midgets- - - - they- don't- know!

Agreed. This cryptic bs is very suspect. Can we get away from all the theatrics? Everybody's got an opinion, but to separate the wheat from the chaff requires an understanding of the motives and qualifications of those issuing said opinions. Protecting confidential sources isn't rocket science. Neither is reading a chart and seeing a bottoming formation start to take place. I've been trading futures for years and it ALWAYS gets down to market psychology - how many specs are going long, going short, and doing neither. A study of open interest and volume is probably a more sure- fired way of making a buck than waiting for divine guidance from cyberspace.

Rant off

KCT

Another. James Brown is in the insane asylum and couldn't make the show tonight. So in his stead..... we have the Big "A". I gotta' go to a party so take notes for me....I only have one night to live...and that's The Night Life! ( Ray Price stole this song from Willie Nelson for $50. ) I shall check in after I've had a little drinkiepoo...

It has been stated that U.S. is buying oil from Iraq in exchange for medical supplies for the people of Irag. Does this not fly in the face of the other Arab oil nations who view Iraq as enemy; also does this not show the nations what a horror the U.S. is. Was this not at the time of economic slow down in Asia. It helped price of oil to plung along with the demand being down. The price did go up in the Asian currency due to the devaluation of their currencies. Wouldn't this play in favor of Asia and the U.S. Isn't the U.S. the one who has the most to loose with economic slowdown and currency faith being lost! The one on the top of the hill has the furthest to fall. Just some fat to chew on.

Mozel- Thank You - The Eagle is of course The Scorpion .I have been warned.- - - - - Away to catch Goldfish and Silverfish with the Eagle by my side.P.S.Yes Sheller Libra Rising

Can someone please recommend a web site that explains and charts the gold silver ratio- - I know how it is calculated, but would like to know how to use it or see it over time. Thank u in advance.

DEA Congressional Testimony

Statement by:

Donnie Marshall

Chief of Domestic Operations

Drug Enforcement Administration

United States Department of Justice

Before the:

Subcommittee on General Oversight and Investigations of the Committee on Banking and Financial Services

Regarding:

U.S. Law Enforcement Response to Money Laundering Activities in Mexico

Location:

Rayburn House Office Building

Room 2128

Washington, D.C.

Date:

September 5, 1996

The Mexican Federation

A Money Laundering Assessment

As with any other illegal venture, the driving force behind drug trafficking is the profits that it allows the trafficker to enjoy. Drug trafficking is a multi- billion dollar business, and these organizations are fueled by huge profits. Without the profits, they cannot finance the manufacturing, transportation, smuggling, distribution, murder and intimidation that are essential to the drug trade. With the tremendous profit comes an absolute necessity for the trafficker to launder his funds.

A preliminary analysis of all transactions between the San Antonio Federal Reserve and area depository institutions show a currency surplus of $2.96 billion dollars in 1995, up nearly $900 million from the surplus measured in 1994. In order to satisfy a growing economic demand for cash, Federal Reserve Banks often disperse more cash to depository institutions than they receive in deposits. Thus, Federal Reserve Banks with unexplained cash surpluses are considered worthy of closer scrutiny. Mexico returns more surplus currency to the United States than any other country. Millions of dollars are being laundered by these Mexican trafficking organizations.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/cngrtest/ct960906.htm

Mexican Government Laundering Drug Money - Just Like Arkansas Under Clinton?

By: Mary Mostert, Editor, Michael Reagan MONTHLY MONITOR

"There was an infrastructure within Mexico that includes Colombian and Mexican narcotics traffickers and high- level government officials acting in concert, and that's what we're going after," a source familiar with the investigation said. "Everything was viewed as a cash cow, and everything the PRI [Mexico's ruling political party] did was viewed as an opportunity to steal money. The superstructure of what made this thing tick- that's what we're looking at."

Interesting. Sounds just like Arkansas under Bill Clinton in the 1980s and the billions of dollars worth of cocaine and other drugs being flow into Mena, Arkansas. There was even an Arkansas money laundering scheme that seemed to involve a department of State Government.

http://www.reagan.com/HotTopics.main/document- 5.12.1997.4.html

bb: it's up if you are.

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7953/

Ramrod, I assume you hold a great short position in Echo Bay...and I further assume you are shorting all other gold stocks. Because when you scream fire in a crowded theatre ( as you do here on this forum ) , then you are trying to foment a panic. It is especially irresponsible at a time when gold show indications of improving strength ( and conversely, other general equities seem poised to weaken greatly )

Now, if Echo Bay collapses as you predict, then I can name you at least 7- 10 other gold mining companies that will fold along with it over the next month.

Echo Bay's situation is not good...but guess what, it ain't good for any of the gold companies at 290 an ounce or lower.

Now, I have repeatedly urged gold investors on this forum to remain united in purpose. Do not allow the shorters to scare the crap out of you!

Along with these pleas, I have hoped that more solvent gold producers ( like Barrick and Newmont ) would expedite the process of consolidation such that many failing gold companies do not fold.

Otherwise, there will be mass panic contagion run through the entire gold mining sector that will leave majors ( like Barrick and Newmont ) as decimated as all the rest. Because when panic sets into the gold mining sector, once again, investors will toss out anything with the word "gold" affixed to it.

If you doubt this prognostication, then you need only remember BRE- X as a good example of what a single company disaster can do to the entire industry in which it is a member.

The option players are now advertising to invest in gold options, You know, the guys who normally pump heating oil, soybeans, and unleaded gas.
They call for $350 oz "A more normal gold price" was their words.


Farfel the perception is changing in a big way!

Read in todays FP that TVX Gold may face the same fate as PGU and
RYO. This contradicts other releases made earlier, with reference to
TVX.

FP?

Is there any criteria in a bank in U.S. to hold gold for their custumers.



As in the gentleman in texas, it seemed to work out against him to actually take delivery from comex. Rules and regs seem to make it more economical to buy bullion coins rather delivery from comex.

Does this allow anymore control over physical market, since the average Joe is discouraged to buy directly from Comex and take delivery.

Farfel- Love it .True to the form- Away to catch falling Goldstocks with a fish- net.FARFEL= Now, I have repeatedly urged gold investors on this forum to remain united in purpose. Do not allow the shorters to scare the crap out of you!

The chart can be found at

http://goldsheet.simplenet.com/auag.htm

The question of a possible US$ backed by Gold was discussed here at
kitco last December 7 21:36, Dec 9, 13:10 ,15:19 etc.. Dec 12,13,
22:53 & 21:36 and other numerous contributors including some great info by The Donald. A point of interest the US has been printing a new US$ for about 5 years now.
To respond to your posts re history of moneys and current world trading system, my points in a nut shell that was then, we are now about to enter a new era in Geopolitics and moneys. Nearly all previous monetary agreements,Bretton Woods included, followed some kind of war, usually involving most of the world and the victors usually dictated monetary terms.

IMHO we will never see another war of that magnitude obviously because of MAD, thus my conclusion of said new era,since the US will be forced back home, becoming isolationist, thus ending the reign of the US$ as sole world reserve currency.

I believe in the theory of "The Club of Rome" that describes in some
detail how the World Geopolitical and Economic systems would
divide along 3 basic economic regions.
Region 1. The USA, Canada, + South America as Labour. Witness
the recent so called "Free trade agreements" between same.
Region 2. all of Europe + Africa as labour. Thus the need for the Euro.
Region 3. The Asians they have plenty of labour.
The big question of course is who will control M- E OIL?
Therefore I suggest that there will be at least 3 world reserve currencies, all backed to some extent by Gold, thus the fight for Gold among them, to
attempt to establish world dominant currency.

You're right, Poorboy...it is only a fishnet but if enough people bring out their fishnets en masse, then maybe it will become something much greater.

And if they don't, then you know what will happen.

I and I think most here are not trying to show disrespect, but the thoughts of the perverbial Trojan horse are in mind, in other words beware of a stranger bearing gifts.

Would not you question a story as great of level as yours?

Farfel- A bigger Fish- net Are You Serious ?

One more thing!

If you would be so kind as to tell us how long a coffee breaks are in your area of the world, we could then relax and not wear out our reload button on browser!

Poorboy, call it what you want...it will be a bigger support to provide a bottom once and for all to the great gold crash of the Nineties.

Thanks again. This is the best road to be on- - - yellow brick

1. Are you concerned about national or international attention you may receive because of your postings on Kitco?

2. Do you feel threaten by any person or organization?

3. How much time do we Goldbugs have left to acquire gold bullion before it trades no more?

4. Do you have any comments on Silver or Platinum.

I have relatives that recently left Saudi and are well connected. I mentioned your posts and they said Gold is wealth to the Saudis and a very important medium of exchange. The Saudis are good businessmen and great negotiators. They believe Americans are of a lower status but put up with us. They also believe your Oil for Gold could be true. Hmmmmm

Farfel- great gold crash of the Nineties yes!!!!! Do some homework on 22 year cycles and then tell the Gold Stock Investors you made a boo boo, but a Taurus never makes Mistakes- Away to buy battery powered cars.P.S.Ted- Are you Down Again?

A lot of gold stock bashing here tonight...

My understanding is TVX is pretty well hedged against low gold price...
See the data, change the perception.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/971125/tvx_gold_inc_1.html

Was wondering if you received email

mozel............. you may wish to consider this:

http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/240506.html

It would appear that the Japanese do not think the world economy is based upon a Dollar Standard, it is an American consideration. Consider the Europeans, in particular the British - it is in their interest to recreate a gold standard, and to achieve a consensus with the Japanese and Chinese on this issue?!


Gazebo..... in relation to gold and when to but it, follow the Nikkei:

http://satellite.nikkei.co.jp/enews/TNKS/stox/strend.html

None of the club of rome'es other predictions worked out. Competing reserve currencies implies not international trade, but trading within regional blocs which are ideologically hostile or at least politically so. This is the scenario offered by G Orwell in, I think, Brave New World. I don't think the world has that much ideological steam left in it.

Saying gold backing is theft of concept just as much as is saying devaluing the paper dollar.

The following just came in over my transom. Good documentation of the benefits to a people of having a government that offers the world a fiat paper currency as the lender of last resort. BTW one group that comes to mind as having enough to play CB, who has incentive to seek the ultimate protection from dollar devaluation since their contracts are settled in dollars, and who doesn't mind taking possession of the physical stuff is ... need ANOTHER guess.

IMPORTANT INFO: Jan, 98 page 3

2. WHY DID THE U.S. PAPER CURRENCY LOSE 97% OF ITS VALUE SINCE 1940 AND
85% OF ITS VALUE SINCE 1967?- - Because the supply of paper money, currency,
and credit is only limited by the discipline [or the whims] of the
politicians- - which of course are non- existent today. That's why the
national
deficit has grown from a few hundred billion dollars in 1967 to about $5.6
trillion today; in spite of Bill Clinton's dishonest statistics
continues to
grow at about $200 billion per year.
Inflation is actually a DILUTION of the value of money- - and expansion of
currency and credit by the government and the Fed which dilutes or waters
down the value of the currency, and in turn pushes prices up. VISUALIZE a
glass of scotch and water [have alcohol and half H2O] the VISUALIZE pouring
that half glas of scotch into a bathtub full of water. You still have
scotch
and water, but it's not the same. You have diluted the scotch to the point
that it has lost its efficacy, its efficiency or its bang. THE SAME THING
HAPPENS AS OUR GOVERNMENT AND CENTRAL BANKS CONTINUE TO EXPAND THE MONEY
SUPPLY- - THEY DILUTE ITS VALUE.
[ed. note: The Fed is currently expanding the M3 money supply at an
annual rate of almost 11% [the same rate at which they inflated in the
1970s] in an effort to offset the deflationary forces emerging out of
Southeast Asia]
Again, VISUALIZE yourself as a carpetbagger going into a tiny,
self- contained town with a population of 10,000 people and an existing
money
supply of $10 million in circulation. You carry $10 million of cash into
the
town [Anywhere, USA] and place it into circulation over the next 30 days.
What would happen to prices and the value of the pre- existing currency?
Prices would double overnight, but in reality, the value of the now highly
diluted currency would drop in half. THAT IS INFLATION, AND THAT IS
DELIBERATE FINANCIAL POLICY OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND FED AND MOST OTHER
GOVERNMENTS AND CENTRAL BANKS AROUND THE WORLD.
In the 1970s, the U.S. monetary authorities monetized large amounts of
the deficit through the banking system and increased the money supply at
double- digit levels throughout most of the decade- - giving us inflation
rates
up to 18% by early 1980. They slowed the monetization of the deficits and
money supply growth in the 1980s by selling much of the Treasury paper to
cover the deficits to foreigners [ED. NOTE: Japan now owns over $500
billion
of U.S. Treasury paper and at this writing is beginning of dump same.]
In the 1990s the Fed and Treasury have increased the monetization of the
deficits while continuing to sell large quantities of U.S. Treasury
paper to
foreigners [especially, Japan]. Let's assume that over the past 30 years
[1967- 97] that the Fed expanded [diluted] the U.S. monetary base by 6% per
year [on average].
Assume that you started with $10,000 in 1967. At a 6% monetary expansion
[dilution per year] after 11 years, the purchasing power of your $10,000
would have dropped in half- - to $5,062.76 After 20 years, the purchasing
power would have dropped 70% to $2,901; and after 30 years the purchasing
power would have dropped 85% to $1,562.48

THIRTY YEAR DECLINE IN PURCHASING POWER OF U.S. DOLLAR

And that is how the purchasing power of our currency has dropped 85%
since 1967 and why a 1967 Chevy which cost $3,000 in 1967 now costs around
$20,000. THIS SUBTLE INFLATION [THEFT FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE] WAS
DELIBERATE, PREMEDITATED POLICY OF WEALTH CONFISCATION BY THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT AND THE FED, AND AS JOHN MAYNARD KEYES SAID, SUCH THEFT THROUGH
INFLATION IS NOT RECOGNIZABLE BY ONE OUT OF A MILLION PEOPLE.
So, while the purchasing power of the U.S. dollar declined 85% over 30
years, the price of gold rose by 829% - - largely offsetting the loss of
purchasing power. Gold has a finite supply which is only expanded about
1/2%
per year, while the world's currencies have infinite supply which expands
about 10% per year and average, and which is only limited by the number of
trees which can be cut down, cut into thin slices, and printed with colored
ink- - and by the computer blips which the monetary authorities can generate
to create new funds literally out of thin air.
[ED. NOTE: The Clinton Administration is lying about current official
inflation [and all other economic] statistics in America Items which are
moving up rapidly in price are simply omitted fron the calculations of the
CPI. Real world inflation in America today is between 6 and 10% . And by
UNDERstating inflation, the government OVERstates GDP which is
calculated by
subtracting out inflation.]

3. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO MONETIZE THE U.S. DEBT- - In the 1970s, the
Federal
budject deficits ran about $40 billion per year [about $400 billion for the
decade]. These deficits were financed by printing up Treasury bills, notes
and bonds. About two- thirds of those [$266 billion] were bought by the U.S.
public [and to a smaller extent by foreigners]. They bought them out of
savings and these purchases put upward pressure on interest rate which rose
[along with inflation] to double digit levels by 1980.
The remaining one- third of this Treasury paper [about $133 billion,
which
was floated to finance the 1970s deficits, was monetized by the Fed [our
central bank]- - which bought the paper and deposited it into our fractional
reserve banking system in the form of new free reserves. The Fed. however,
did not have a saving account like the U.S. public- - but they had something
which was infinitely better- - they kept the books. The Fed simply bought the
Treasury paper with bookkeeping entries [literally creating billions of
dollars of new liquidity out of thin air].
They then deposited this paper into the fractional reserve banking
system
which had about 15% reserve requirements in the 1970s. Then as businesses
and consumers borrowed in our fractional reserve banking system, the
multiplier effect [which was about six times the new reserves in the 1970s]
went into effect [with about a 6 to 12 month- month lag- time], creating
about
$800 billion out of thin air. This was unprecedented dilution of the U.S.
money supply and drove price inflation up to annualized rates of 18% by
January, 1980. Gold responded by rising to $875 in early 1980.
As investors began to understand inflation and to adjust their finances
accordingly, the government and Fed changed their tactics in the 1980s. The
deficits exploded to over $200 billion per year but instead of massive
1970s- type monetization of the debt, they began to sell large quantities of
the Treasury paper to foreigners [central banks, commericial banks, pension
funds, individuals, etc.] This continued into the early 1990s as the U.S.
deficits continued to grow.
So, in the 80s and 90s, foreign purchases of U.S. Treasury paper [which
were floated to finance our burgeoning Federal debt- - now totaling $5.6
trillion] increased to several trillion dollars and our government
continued
its deficit spending profligacy "without tears" [without setting off
1970s- style inflation]. It didn't have to monetize to the degree that it
did
in the 1970s. The foreign purchases of U.S. Treasury paper helped to keep
U.S. interest rates and inflation [official rates] at moderate levels, and
instead of putting their savings into Treasury paper, the U.S. public could
put its excess funds into the U.S. stock market.
But this "deficit spending without tears" may now be over. FOREIGNERS
[LED BY THE BANK OF JAPAN ARE NOW BEGINNING TO DUMP U.S. TREASURY PAPER
[ABOUT $40 BILLION IN LATE '97]. IF THE U.S. PUBLIC [which is just about
maxed out regarding its own debt and speculative funds] has to buy this
returning debt [paper] they will have to pull hundreds of billions out of
the U.S. stock market, which will collapse the market and push U.S.
interest
rates up sharply.
So, in late '97 and early '98 we see the Fed quietly buying up
[monetizing] this Treasury paper Japan, WHICH OWNS OVER $500 BILLION IN
U.S.
TREASURY PAPER, HAS BEEN QUIETLY SELLING BACK TENS OF BILLIONS IN U.S.
TREASURY [OFF OF THE MARKET] DIRECTLY TO THE FED- - WHICH IS MONETIZING THIS
DEBT- - ALA THE 1970S.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 1970S AND THE 1990S- - In the 1970s, we
were in
and expanding economic environment worldwide- - albeit with a lot of
inflation. In the 1990s we are in a contracting economic environment
worldwide- - with massive involuntary debt liquidation [deflation] now taking
place in Southeast Asia, Latin America, Eastern and Western Europe, etc.
The Fed, The IMF, and the other central banks [their protests to the
contrary notwithstanding] would have to reignite to reverse the
deflationary
collapse which is now occuring around the world. But, as they deposit these
returning funds into the banking system, if businesses and consumers [who
are now maxed out with debt], cannot, or will not borrow- - it is [in the
words of John Exter] "LIKE PUSHING ON A STRING." Nothing happens! The
multiplier stays flat.
We are now balanced on a knife's edge between global inflation and
deflation- - with the scale now beginning to tilt toward deflation. The
question is, can the U.S. Fed [the world's lender of last resort], the IMF,
and the world's central banks print money fast enough to suppress the
accelerating global deflation? In so doing, will they create a killer
global
inflation? Will we have a global deflationary depression followed by a
global inflationary depression? The next year or so should begin to give us
the answers to some of these questions.
[ED. NOTE: It should be understood that it is much easier to stop a
national or global inflation, than a national or global deflation. ONCE YOU
PRICK A GIANT SPECULATIVE BUBBLE [SUCH AS WE SAW IN THE LATE 1920S AND
EARLY
30S OR AS WE SAW IN 1989 IN JAPAN] THE AIR BEGINS TO RUSH OUT IN A GIANT
DEFLATIONARY WINDSTORM AND IT IS DIFFICULT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO PUT THE AIR
BACK IN- - AS JAPAN IS PRESENTLY DISCOVERING.]

For those of simple thought, such as I, gold is good to own. But, for those of need for reason, read from one who speaks to me:

The Cornering of Gold!

The final outcome of Too Much Oil, Too little Gold and Worldwide Digital Currencies.

For years the governments could create currency out of nothing. But, during the last eight years, the modern currency systems have taken the final step. As digital charges in a computer, they have become but emotional thoughts of trading value. This is to say, a currency unit exists only during the moment of trade. During this time, when real things are in transit, paper currency has value as an expected trade completion. It exists as a human thought. Complete the transaction and the thought is gone, the currency unit dies.

Think about it? If for a time the world commerce stopped. All would live from what they had for, say a week. During this week, all currencies and the debts that back them would not exist! Without trade, modern currencies have no use, no value, no purpose.

During our modern age, a currency can be anything. Corn, lamps, cars, tables, anything could be used as a concept for a digital currency. You see, it exists in concept only. Even gold could be used as modern money. The real item is not used, only the concept of how it would be used during the transaction of commerce. Real value is not needed for

modern money, as it is only used as a trading unit!

What does all of this have to do with oil and gold? For most people, nothing. But for some people, everything! You see, some persons do not want to hold an operating business and the present value that represents, as their wealth. Nor do they want to hold encumbered assets or debts of others. Wealth, to these people, is not represented by a

digital trading unit of commerce.

History has shown how many persons, or groups of persons, have tried and failed while trying to corner a commodity. Greed was always the factor, as acquiring real wealth to pass on to family or country was never the aim. Using paper currencies ( or debts of the same ) to purchase these commodities, always brought on the undoing of the scam. During some years, even gold was used as a purchasing unit, as gold was the currency of that time.

But, today we come to a different period, with a different factor and circumstance. For during no period of history has an entity used a commodity to corner another commodity! The intent is not to corner, but the result will be the same. This action is coming about because of a gross, huge mismatch of the value of gold and oil! We are not talking aboutthe price of these items ( in any currency ) . We speak of the total amount of physical gold, worldwide and the total amount of oil worldwide. During the last twenty years, the world has made oil an absolute necessity for life as we know it. During the same time, gold has been degraded to a kind of commodity that we may need sometime but, Im not sure. With the public, government and the business community holding these thoughts, it is easy to understand which item is needed first and which would be dumped. In this day, people would sell gold for oil, no contest!

Consider the amount of oil that is used daily. Consider the future value that this consumption places on reserves in the ground. Compare this to the amount of gold consumed daily. Notice I said consumed daily, not traded daily. Clearly, the consumption of oil compared to the consumption of gold places a much higher value on oil reserves than gold reserves. With no replacement for the use of oil ( at present to lower prices ) and no needed use for gold in todays thought, we have the ingredients for a mismatch in value of epic proportions!

The supply of oil was a problem in the 70s. Several nations actually cut off the supply to make a political point. Many thought that the embargo was an attempt at cornering the oil market. We may never know the true reasons for the large increase in the price of oil, but one thing is clear. The value of oil in todays economy is of far greater importance to maintaining present asset values than at any time in the past. Today, the future value of all commerce is well bid into every asset value! Without oil in good supply , at a currency price that allows a reasonable lifestyle, all assets would lose much relative value.

This need for supply is not lost to governments or their Central Banks. No single asset class or segment of the economy, by itself is more valuable than the supply of oil. This brings us back full circle, to the problem of digital currencies and the mind set of much of the simple ( and rich ) third world persons. To many of these people, wealth is the surplus of lifes work that you pass on after death. Currency is something you, spend, trade or hold for a few years. It isnt wealth. Gold ( and silver ) is on the list, so to speak.

This same mindset creates a worry in the back of many a mind in the oil states. It is clear to most, that even a small amount of gold in the asset mix, makes one appear less western and therefore less foolish when the concept of value and currency are discussed. But, the problem has always been that oil is so large in relation to gold that any attempt to convert, even a portion of ones assets creates a distortion in the markets. Of further concern is that; everyone knows that western minds dont like or want gold, but if they think you like it they will trade it up in price for the sake of sticking it to you .

Enter the world of paper gold.

Yes, gold just like currencies has been digitized. If you brought gasoline, made from oil sold under $20/bl, you are part of this system! For just as the digital currencies are created for trading only, paper gold was created for the trade of oil. In a very broad sense, it was created as an extra or kicker to allow the purchase of small amounts of cheap gold in return for a full supply of oil. In reality, this gold paper represents the future production of gold ( from the ground ) to balance the reserves of oil ( also in the ground ) . The huge amount of paper gold traded and outstanding today is now in excess of all the

gold in existence above ground! In essence, it is of the same value as the currencies, the thoughts of nations, blowing in the wind. The Central Banks gave value to this paper by selling and lending some of their gold stocks. But, as economies became hooked on cheap oil, and demanded more of the same, these same CBs had no choice but to use fractional reserve gold lending to pump the gold market.

Now we approach the final act.

There is one oil state that no one will play for a fool. The CBs will sell all of their gold or the nations will nationalize all mines and operate them at a loss. One way or another, most of the paper gold market will be honored. Why? Because oil will bid for gold if they do not! We are not talking about an oil embargo or rising oil prices. Indeed, oil will become very cheap for those that can supply physical gold. This deal will not require the agreement of all oil states. Only one can start this, the others will gladly follow.

A large oil producer, with plenty of reserves and unused capacity, can say: We now value gold at $10, $20 or $30,000/oz.. That is the rate we will use to sell oil. We will go to full production and offer at $10.00us/bl.. Pay us in physical gold and USD ( or EUROs ) as a 50% mix to the above rate to equal $10/bl..

It would be a deal like none other! Oil, worldwide, would drop to $10.00/bl and every economy would do very well, IF they had gold. All gold would immediately be arbitraged to the above prices thereby creating a world oil currency large enough to handle oil. This creating of a new specialized currency will be the result of the first commodity

corner that ever succeeded!

But what of the current currency/debt structure? We will cover that in a later article.

Your last post, thanks, an excellent read.

Excellent stuff.

git back here.....

the crushing begins in one and  hour....oh......my.

awayawayawayaway...someone stop me.........back to the barbie w/ t- bones

groovin

You really should refer to:

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ron/alien/main_archive/a_upto_i/committe.300.txt

RULE BRITANNIA........................

Another, you have concocted a most elaborate "interesting" conspiracy theory integrating oil and gold. However, I believe it is entirely specious and predicated upon various assumptions that can fall apart like gossamer in the wind.

Most notably, there is a genuine possiblity that, within a very short period of time, oil consumption will drop significantly. With the approaching advent of electric, fuel cell, and solar alternatives, there is a real possibility of oil dropping precipitously in value. Add to the mix the fact that the OPEC cartel is not as solid as it once was, and there is the increasing possibility that oil will go the way of coal.

Given that more and more people believe such a future scenario is unfolding, then I think you over- rate the value of oil.

As much as those here would gleefuly applaud $10,000 or $30,000/oz gold, do you not perceive that this would create great conflict? Wars have been fought over much smaller stakes, and the oil users are not yet paper ( or digital ) tigers.....

I understand your last post and agree with the points you made. I do feel quite strongly that the coming world- wide deflation will be unforgiving to the oil states.

Of course IMHO

Ah, yes, forgot about Brittania. I dare say rapprochement with the Red Chinese over gold was part of the Hong Kong pullout arrangement. And Labor's Tony Blair would see eye to eye with the Japanese LDP on CAPITAL, wouldn't he ? Sorry for the oversight, Old Chap.

Besides gold on that webpage, there was a number of articles about Japanese- American Joint Security Arrangements. Guns and gold do seem to go together, don't they ?

Get the hell back here and stop spendin' yer time at that there Sydney Casino enrichen' all those near do wells. Salute To you. Dont leave CB fer Down Maine/ Talk ta ya later!!! Cape Breton/Paradise on earth!!

Aye, very interesting.........

Dollars buy debts, the Dollar is a debt, so what can you buy with a dollar - itself or debt?

In basic terms, at this time, it does not cost alot of Dollars to buy gold - but what is actually being bought, the Dollar or gold?!

Gold me thinks !! The lull before the storm....currently a cyclone off NE Queensland........

Huge gold and oil potential in Australia, and lets not forget about vanadium ?!

If, as you say, a major oil producer were to say that they value oil at $x per barrel, and we will take payment 1/2 in dollars or eurodollars and 1/2 in gold, then it would be to the benefit of that oil producer to "value" gold as low as possible, in order that they would receive more gold for the 1/2 of the payment in gold. If they said that they valued gold at $1,000 per ounce, then they would get 5/1000 of an ounce of gold for that 1/2 of the payment. If they said they valued gold at $10 per ounce, then they would get 5/10 or 1/2 oz of gold for that portion of the payment. Undoubtedly, they would prefer to have .5 ounces of gold as opposed to .005 ounces. If the oil producer were to say that they valued gold at $10 per ounce, that would create great problems, IMHO.

Can you clarify what you are saying or let us know why the above reasoning is specious?

Thank you.

from....Date: Sun Jan 11 1998 02:24
aurator ( _____"ANOTHER"________ONE____TO_______ANOTHER ) ID#257148:

ANOTHER
WEll I know you've logged off, but perhaps you could answer this
question when ou next return. You said:
Cmax: I must use another to express my knowledge, as position will not
allow.

I well understand your wish for anonymity, even possibly for a translator,but I do not understand why you *have* to express your knowledge. I am grateful to you and to all who do post here, but why do you *have* to do this?
You appear, from you posts, to be quite different from most of us who
are "average Joes" ( except  - clearly royalty ) who have been fortunate to find this site. Here at the waterhole of kitco, liike minds gather to exchange our ideas in the hope of understanding more. It seems that you arrived at this site with "a complete understanding" and have been casting your knowledge slowly around, a little at a time.
In other words, like one or two other posters at this site in the past, you appear to have an agenda. You appear to lift the veil slightly to reveal a little of this already known understanding, and enjoy some of the eager thirst displayed here for more knowledge, so you lift the veil higher.

So, you may be a Very Big Man, and then why do you post here? WHat
compels you? If you aren't a Very Big Man, then you must be enjoying
this, your little joke.- string along the goldbugs, get your ducks in a row to make it easier to step on em. eh?
FWIW I do not think you are posting a joke, but it may be a very
interesting smoke screen. And I have enjoyed the mental exercise of
putting your jigs interesting smoke screen. And I have enjoyed the mental exercise of putting your jigsaw together in any event.


atruaor

Your 20:56, good grief, 163 pages. Glad I keep a full inventory of printer cartridges.

Here is another site to obtain bullion quotes and bullion coin prices when Kitco is down: www.coin- universe.com/financial/bullion.html

To ANOTHER;
What do you think of this new technology to convert gas to oil.
What about the vast reservoirs of natural gas in the US or anywhere else?

eco's responce to 1/16/96 is as follows:

Subject:
Date:
Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:36:00 - 0700
From:
RALEE@denver.echobay.com
To:
imsg@epix.net




Trading in ECO on Friday, January 16, 1998

Echo Bay was officially removed from the S& P 500 Index at 4:00pm on
Friday, January 16, 1998. This was a function of the company's market
capitalization falling below a defined level. This announcement was
made by S& P on Friday, January 10, and was to be official on Thursday,
January 15.

As a function of this, Index Funds ( those funds whose portfolio
consist only of stocks listed on the Index ) had to sell their
positions in ECO and purchased the shares of the replacement company.
ECO traded at significantly higher volumes than average throughout the
week as a result.

Because of issues with the replacement company, ECO was not official
removed from the Index until Friday. Within the last 20 minutes of
trading on Friday, program selling resulted in 5.7 million shares
hitting the market. Program selling is predetermined, not a function
of price. This volume far exceeds the 800,000 shares the company
averages a day and pushed the price down to $1 1/4 per share. This
was followed by significant amount of additional trading with the last
trade being at $1 9/16.

The company made no announcements on Friday and has had no material
change in its financial condition. Our belief is that the abnormally
high volume resulted in extreme pressure on the stock.

Sincerely,

Robbin A. Lee
Manager, Investor Relations

grant: Interesting point.

"The reason you do not have a police state may be precicely that the US STILL HAS HER ARMED CITIZENRY. Democracy will only exist with supervision."

Actually the whole basis of Canadian Government is to prevent Canada from becoming like the US in terms of the laws ruling the land and the culture that has developed so far. Those people who left the US rather than take part in the rebellion became the Founders of the country and their ideas still form the outline of things today. I think your idea would receive little positive reaction here. Certainly the armed citizenry in the US has little to do with the relative lack of gun related murders here. I believe it is still true that more people will be shot to death in Detroit in any given month than in the whole country in a year. Anyway I don't think there will be any agreement on this issue since I have brought it up several times in the past and it seems to run into a blank wall everytime. Thanks for the chat.

Waiting for ANOTHER is like waiting for the next installment of

Tommy Tomorrow::::::- - - - - SPACE CADET. Takes me back to my youth.

Straight, to the point and, IMHO fair and honestly stated. Throw me in for a ditto.

Now, if the oil folks want to screw around with pricing, I would suggest that there is much the world can hang over their heads. To boil the world down and come up with oil and gold is far too simplistic for my tastes.

Each of the countries of the world, and the people that live within those countries have a worth which cannot be measured in things. Things in life can be replaced. People cannot. Our science has almost provided for the copy of an individual, but as we all know the copy never truly matches the original.

A new era begins, a developmental birthing for progress. I am sure in your satchel of thoughts you, the aurator can better what I am trying to say.

Things only retain value because our leaders are so petty. I suggest they raise their eyes to look upon more lofty goals. Where there is a will there is a way. If you aim for the stars as they say, you may get lucky and land on the roof.

The Bank for International Settlements..........

http://www.bis.org/

THe possible BIS bottom line, with respect to the current dollar value of gold .........

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/finart1.htm

And, last but not least, a wee bit of fantasy........we do live in a "perfect" world, with the Dollar as King.......

must have been written in Hollywood.........

http://www.fame.org/factfict/FF- 001.htm

Haggis has proposed Japan as a candidate for a policy of gold settlement for international trade.
IMO this will not happen because its trading parner and defence partner cannot oblige.
Another has proposed an Arab candidate.
The Arabs formed OPEC to:
1. protect the price of oil through production quotas
2. by controlling production and price to thereby protect the compensation they received for oil from Western inflation

OPEC has failed to limit production. New non- OPEC oil has come on stream. So neither goal has been achieved. There is incentive to corner gold. And there is the means. If the Arabs go long on gold to the point where the CB's cannot sell, they do not even need to ask for payment in gold since they can keep the price of the commodity in lockstep with dollar devaluation.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that" none of the club of Rome other predictions worked out" but certainly this one is playing out
to a T. The US has now in the Americas under their control and is thus
self sufficient, in fresh water from Canada, Oil and gas from Mexico ,Venezuela and Canada and almost all raw materials from forest products
to Gold. This certainly was not the case 15 years ago, therefore in so far
as Economic Region 1. The Americas can be self sufficient as planned.

With respect to Oil and its price the US and the Americas do not import
ME Oil, Europe and Asia do.

Your statement " I don't think the world has much ideological steam left in it", I don't believe is accurate. Just look at the nationalistic
and ideological fervor going on in China,+HK and Taiwan and even Japan, India, Pakistan Turkey the Arabs, Stans, Russia, and on... why with the current collapse of so called world market economy in Asia nationalistic fervor has nowhere to go but up even in Europe.

The list of stats you posted are geberally well known to most Kitcoites, I once joked that most Kitcoites can walk and chew gum at the same time. It is ever so important to keep our eyes on the ball ,GOLD, and not look at which player is down or up in any given play.
The idea that US has been issuing paper $ for goods abroad and Exporting Inflation is not news IMHO. News will be when will foreigners
NOTaccept paper US$ as world reserve currecy for their valuable goods?

Selby - - The problem with firearms in the U.S. is not that 'I' own them, but that the barbarians have taken over. I have not looked at this in depth, but I would be willing say that there is high degree of correlation between the level of violence in general and the 'liberalization' of the immigration laws that started in the sixties here in the U.S.

At the risk of inciting Ted, I would never mention the Kennedy name in connection with this...

Consider that Voodoo ceremonies are common place in some of the larger U.S. inner city areas. Such progress in the name of 'diversity' and 'multiculturalism'. A danger sign if there ever was one...

If I understand you correctly it appears that ME oil states have conducted a large amount of business transactions allowing their accounts to be settled with "paper" gold. While it is probable that some physical transactions took place as the market would allow, the size these transactions necessitated a fractional paper currency ( paper gold ) .

This game could go on for some time without oil producers demanding full payment in physical gold, especially if the very size of these transactions could destabilize world markets.

But as with any game, time itself sometimes changes the rules. I asked myself what might precipitate such a change in policy by a major ME oil state. I believe the answer may lie in your comment about passing wealth on to the country and one's children.

My concern is this. The US is notorious for changing the rules to suit her needs. The general public is spoon fed information that allows them to admire the "hero" and hate the "bad guy".

America always gets her way. If our policy makers decide to enter into armed conflict we are the masters of doing so without giving any indication to the world that we were the instigators of a conflict.
We will rush in to "rescue" the country that is being attacked. Never mind that we started it in the first place.

In this world it is easy to pit one nation against another. Why not have Iran or Iraq start a conflict? This is what the world will see. What they won't see is how these countries were baited into firing the first shot through covert actions which make them fight among themselves.

The people of the ME may know the truth, but what good will that do? I greatly fear that the scenario you suggest will be considered worse that armed conflict in the narrow minds of our career politicians.

If you are who you are suggested to be, and the facts you share with us are completely correct, do you honestly believe the US would tolerate
such an outcome without taking drastic action?

When you speak of future changes in the world economy, your scenario assumes that debts will be paid with honor. The payment you suggest is very high. Study my country's history. What will stop us from simply taking what we want if too much is demanded? Do you share this concern?

REPLY:

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 21:35
Tyler Rose ( ANOTHER ) ID#373164:
If, as you say, a major oil producer were to say that they value oil at $x per barrel, and we will take payment 1/2 in dollars or eurodollars and 1/2 in gold, then it would be to the benefit of that oil producer to "value" gold aslow as possible, in order that they would receive more gold for the 1/2 of the payment in gold.

Tyler Rose:
At this point of time the drive would be to make a usable currency. This would require a high value for gold. For gold to trade with oil on a physical basis would also require perhaps a small fraction of gold/bl.
All would gain from this. The intent is not to destroy the oil market.

Selby:
Or a Poster from a few decades ago of 2 vultures, starving in the desert. One says to another "Patience! Be damned! I'm gonna KILL something."

100- 500k were slaghtered in the "gulf war". What makes it even more of an atrocity is that the vast majority of them were waving white flags.

Noam Chomsky has called the gulf war "the most cowardly war in hitory".

As a retired member of the Cdn Air Force I was ashamed that our forces were a part of it.

NOAM CHOMSKY A TRUE PATRIOT OF THE PEOPLE..We Agree/ he is a truth teller!!

and it's certainly true that Canada, Europe, Australia, and other great democracies have recently found that thier firearm related crime has dropped as a result of firearm control. The US would, likewise see such a drop if she implemented such laws.
The question I was entertaining was whether the armed US citizenry,as the last great militia in the word ( the most powerful in history ) , may actually be responsible for the creation and maintenance of democratic freedoms and human rights as we know them today.
Unfortunately,I think, the only way to test this theory is to take the guns from the US citizenry then wait and see if Democracy and human rights collapse.Of coarse, then, there's no going back.
Thanks for your reply.
GRANT

REPLY:

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 22:06

Schultz ( ANOTHER ) ID#288349:

Schultz, Your view is a good one. The perception of the US is one of your view from where you stand. Many do not hold America as a taker without cause. At a low ratio of gold per barrel, with gold priced high enough, the USA would no doubt receive oil, relative to today at perhaps $8.00. The Us gold reserve and in ground reserve would last a great while. Also, the US gold reserve value would increase a great deal!

That, your Washington would understand, VERY WELL!

What does IMHO stand for?

You can only play football with a full ball, not one cut in two !

Futhermore, you also need a level playing field !!

And, it takes at least two to play !!!

Same issues apply to the Dollar and gold, the Yen and gold, the Dollar and the Yen, oil and gold............. and others

Geez, I leave for a short time and miss it all!

What ever doubts I had about you they just went up a hundred fold. I think all of us get the mindset and the basic concept of your theory, but it now sounds that you are repeating yourself and trying to sell yourself on your on theory. Until you answer questions that are asked no one will pay heed to your stories.

It seems to have change by the way, now as you have stated the CB's will minipulate the price of gold to stay within a channel to force the mining companies to go belly up so the govs can step in and run the mines to produce gold inwhich to buy oil. Boy this is getting alittle stretchy

I would state that the industrialize world would not allow third world countries to blackmail them as you suggest. First technology would somehow provide a means to go without the 25% of world oil supply that derives by the middle east, secondly if they couldn't it would be taken away! I know that sounds harsh but if it came to a world finicial collaspe, where untolds amounts of death and suffering would take place, it would somehow be justified by some elected official that it would be more humane to take the oil away, thus limiting the bloodshed and suffering, not to mention saving their jobs. This idea takes out a few steps. And also allows the fiat currencies to continue to take away the working mans wealth.

If you are to have a discussion on a topic, you must be willing to subject yourself to questions on the topic.

Since questions are not recognized, one would take it that you do not have the answers.

If this is somesort of screen test for a script for an upcoming movie, I'll buy some shares though {:+ ) }

In My Humble Opinion

I was a little confused by your last post. You referred to "great democracies" in Europe. Which countries might you be referring to?

I've traveled and done a lot of business in Europe. No..., drive by shootings don't happen very often in Europe. But then again you must get a license just to move from one location another in that great democracy of Germany. The soldiers patrolling the airports and railway stations with full- auto assault rifles didn't bother me one bit.

Unfortunately, the system that is supposed to demand accountability of every man has failed miserably. I think, though, the pendulum has reached it's apex. Things are changing and God willing, we'll see a return to lawfulness and a strengthening of democratic human rights.
( Would'nt be so bad if gold went up in the meantime )

thanks for bring it to my attenton:

http://www.acsys.com/~hong

Me thinks a key to this game is the worlds feelings about gold. ANOTHER stated that the west values gold for NOT at this time. OF course, this thought doesn't set well on this bb, BUT I think we must admit that most the world DOES NOT care for gold. In the U.S. most folks would rather have a year's supply of Burger King's Fries than 10 ounces of gold.

So if a country ( the right country ) said, work in an ounce of gold and we will give you the deal of a lifetime ... . Yes I think they would be taken up on it. It would be cheaper and easier than fighting a war.

Of course, oil would still trade in other areas of the world for different prices. BUT the "CHEAP" oil would go to those with the gold.
Yes, I could imagine this senario.

Yes, I can imagine Bill and Hillary getting on the TV and informing the gradeful public that they have found a way to further lower inflation and obtain cheap oil.

ANOTHER, my bigger worry is for those of us ( little geese ) that hold some gold bullion ( for whatever reason ) . Would we be able to keep it? Would we be able to sell it? Would we be able to move it to a new homeland?

ANOTHER, would the powers of gold be promoted around the world or surpressed for the little ones such as I.

If anyone does not like America, leave, if you are some place else, don't come here. Plain and simple.

Now as to guns. Wake up and smell the rotting flesh. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

If the oil producing country is interested in establishing a "usable currency", then I think all on this board would agree that "All would gain from this" A more direct approach would be to insist that world currencies, or at least the $US be backed by gold. This, also, would be supported by me and others on this board ( I think ) .

If you are familiar with Vronsky's site ( Gold Eagle ) , there was a paper last year that went through an exercise which suggested that all of the major world currencies could be gold backed if a 25% reserving requirement was adopted and the price of gold was about $1200. This would be accomplished by requiring some countries to sell gold and other countries to buy it. Perhaps Vronsky could find and post this paper for current readers. If not, I think I can find it if you are interested in reading it.

Personally, I think that we will have to have a universal currency at some point not too distant in the future. The people of the world can not afford to be subjected to having their life savings disappear overnight because of governmental indiscretions. That universal currency should, obviously, be backed by something - gold preferably. We can not afford to allow any government free access to printing presses to debase the currency already in the hands of the public.

I, for one, have a great appreciation for the enlightenment that you are trying to bring to us. Your willingness to respond to meaningful questions enhances your credibility with me.

I am curious as to your reaction to the article posted on Gold Eagle last year. Would you read it and let us know if the position posited there would satisfy the oil producing countries interests? If you can't find the article, let me know and I will track it down.

I just read your post about US versus your former country. May God bless you, or if you're not religious, may you be fulfilled in whatever way you see as best. Sadly, I believe much as you that were it not for the ever present armed citizenry we would have had a dictatorship here by now. So I agree with most of your post.

But I must correct you on one thing. The presence of a weapon is only one of numerous factors in violence. Criminals usually have a long list of other demographic factors including having been the child of a failed marriage, using alcohol or street drugs, having a poor education et cetera. Usually in any city the police can show you on a street map exactly where are the high crime areas, with crime rates easily equal to Liberia or Rwanda, with beatings, rapes, stabbings and other nongun crimes. Other areas in the same cities have rates equal to northern Europe...nearly no crime. And for the most part the low crime areas have a higher rate of firearms ownership as well as higher rate of intact families, fathers with jobs, parents with education, parents who teach ethics and morality. ( Sadly, I wish this were just IMHO, but in my area of behavioral science expertise I must study and know such things so this is the truth and you can bet your life on it. )

Months ago I made the statement that I believe that gold is a surrogate for the possession of arms for nations.In the best of worlds individuals would have access to both for the protection of their children. But the world is not perfect so I believe that if for some reason one's access to gold and/or arms is prohibited the most powerful raw sources of protection to be education, strong church or community ties and the ability to stay in one's marriage long enough to raise the children.

I guess I better speed up on posting.

Hello Another

You still have not answered the all important question, why are you compelled to shed light on this subject, also why is kitco your stage?

What is in it for you? The risks that are being taken must be high, unless their is alterior motives?

Everyone should read Noam Chomsky's YEAR 501 THE CONQUEST CONTINUES, and you will get a clear picture.

Silver. Just a retracement?

Appologies if this shows up more than once. having technical difficulties.

I've noticed several messages today have called into question the potential health of TVX Gold. The most specific post was at 14.29 referencing an article by Peter Kennedy, Vancouver Bureau of the FP. The article quoted Mr. Murray Pollitt of Pollitt & Company, Toronto. Mr. Pollitt was quoted as saying that TVX Gold is "another company being watched ( for disturbing balance sheets and no real earnings ) .

Since I am considering investing in the company, I revisited some research I did several weeks ago. News releases and company reports in 97 show TVX as having a floor price hedge protection on almost 2 million gold/gold equivalent ounces through forwards and put options through the year 2004 at an average price of $422/ounce. Additionally there is also put option protection on almost 700,000 oz at $358/ounce for year 2002 - this against debt.

The above represents 6.5 years of production at 97 production levels.

SOURCE: YAHOO FINANCE

Anyone know of problems TVX has beyond some unhappy Greek citizens near their mine in Greece? Anyone know if Mr. Pollitt has an ax to grind?

Daily chart looks like a bouncy bottom, BUT... The weekly chart is UGLY.

...after catching up on the other posts since. Several of the Candians though have made a good point that they have low crime rates despite lack of firearms. Swiss could make the opposite point. But I believe that the difference in the US lies solely in the fact that we have large numbers of people who have no culture, no morals, no family and no stabalising influences in their lives. I have a link BTW which lists Canadian opinion about gun control. It has a dash so use the cut and paste utility to make it work:

http://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn- firearms/Buckner/GUNCOVER.htm#Table of Contents



I guess this is relevent to gold only tangentially at best.

...dismounting soapbox and leaving for the night...

And the dollar just keeps on going...

http://www.bom.gov.au/weather/national/satellite/gvlatest.shtml

Where is Timmons? Does the project have potential?

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 22:53
panda ( U.S. Dollar index... ) ID#30116:
And the dollar just keeps on going...

Looks just great panda. Could you give us a longer term view also, say 25, 50 years or more so we can see the longer trends.

thanks in advance.

We need a couple of more weeks like the one just past in the gold market.

REPLY:

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 21:44

Mikey ( TO ANOTHER ) ID#347332:

To ANOTHER;

What do you think of this new technology to convert gas to oil.

What about the vast reservoirs of natural gas in the US or anywhere else?

Mikey,

If the oil/gold trading brings on a worldwide currency crisis before oil can change the rules, the price of oil in all currencies would spike and destroy most economies and the oil market. This outcome is not wanted but may happen. In this scenario your natural gas would be of use, but your econemy would be gone. Gold would never trade again on a free market. If the oil priced in gold comes to pass, oil would be a much cheaper use than gas. Your reserves would have to wait for another day.

It may be a great idea for bleeding heart liberals & help them sleep better at night but IMO the only thing that it acomplishes, is that it makes it more difficult for law abiding citizens to obtain weapons. The criminals don't bother with registration. Here on the west coast we're experiencing an epidemic of young punks breaking into senior citizen's homes & in some cases torturing & killing them. These young punks are the cowardly scum of the world. I give the Americans credit for allowing their citizens the right to bear arms & defend themselves. My fondest wish is that before I'm too old & senile, some young punks breaks into my house so that I can can empty my ruger 22 target pistol into them. Although I would no doubt be charged by the gestapo police you are so proud of, I would quite happily go to jail. BTW,if I obey the law my pistol is supposed to be locked in a cabinet. Let's give the bastards

an extra few minutes before we can break the law & defend ourselves.

Gun control is a farce. In Victoria,I know for a fact that any criminal can procure a pistol for as little as $300.If someone decided to put out a contract on you, do you really think gun control would prevent your demise?

gold, oil, drugs, dollar, yen, pound, DM, gold derivative, ......

Well that is at least 8 factors, therefore 8! factorials .......

How many combinations is that..........

And we are looking for a "SIMPLE" solution ??????

Opportunities is what the world is looking for !!!!!!!

Next is line is, hopefully, GOLD.................

My data is limited to what you see. Also, I'm not so sure that the index has been around for that long a time span. It's always nice to compare 'apples to apples'. :- )

Another intersting indicator to look at is the TED spread. Otherwise known as the Treasury/Euro dollar spread. The wider the spread between the two, the more 'insecure' investors feel. To see that spread, look up the March, June, September, or December futures contracts for the TB and ED.

Year = 98 or '8'

H = March

M = June

U = September

Z = December

For March spread, look up TBH8 and EDH8

Thanks panda, I will do that. Boy the gold chart certainly isn't anything to cheer about. I am glad it is finaly heading up, but it is simply AMAZING the battering it has had just in the last few months, mush less in the last 12 months.

Also thanks for the charts.

You were'nt to explicit on what you meant by saying the buying opportunity for gold mining shares is in the price of gold and the Japan markets. Can you elaborate on this?

In Dec. I think you stated that when Gold is at production costs $280, and if you do not have gold ( physical ) then it is too late because the time it takes for delivery things will have came to pass.

Did the derivative unraveling not come to pass as you may have thought it would have.

The tone has seemed to change from what will, to what could. Was there something that happened or didn't happen that you or your employer did not forsee.

One thing I will have to commend you on, wether the things you spoke of come to pass or not, you have brought forth a incredible story. One to be proud of, you definitly captavated the forume here at Kitco and elsewhere. But alot of us really need some hard evidence to hang our hats on to believe what you are stating. Isn't there anything other than circumstancial tid bits that you can throw to us dogs! Give us some real proof. As said in America, where's the beef.

REPLY,

Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 22:40
A.Goose ( Gold for oil... ) ID#20137:

There are many who would take your gold. Read my long post of tonight and place your life in that time. You will feel the threat against your holdings. If it is taken it will be for the good of all. Perhaps it is not bad. In all things, good life is more important.

James - - If you want to make your point known, in a manner that will not be ignored, may I suggest something at least .40 calibre or better? :- )

On that note............... Good night all. And remember, it's going to be inflation in stuff. Computers and chips deflate.... :- ) )

I beleive it was you who posted the link to CFTC for the CMX. Are these numbers representing the outstanding option positions and not actual contact positions?

``The family of the president has its fingers in many areas,'' influential financer George Soros said in an interview to the German Die Zeit magazine last week. ``I do not believe that the problem can be solved without a change of regime.''

Forbes magazine's list of the world's richest people last year had Suharto in sixth place with estimed net worth of $16 billion. Other news reports have said that the First Family has assets worth $40 billion.

Many analysts have said Indonesia showed little commitment to an earlier reform programme arranged by the IMF in October in exchange for an aid package of $43 billion, perhaps because any restructuring could hurt vested interests.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980117/indonesia__5.html

I have no idea of the complexity of the relationships.Certainly the golden rule was evident to the Nazis. They made the rules, they took the gold.Seems I recall thet Hitler banned and confiscated private firearms. Seems like he did that BEFORE he attempted WORLD DOMINATION

ON the listing, was curious about what the numbers represent, it must be options, How could a contract be bought and sold without the opposite?

I just spent the last hour watching this documentary on PBS. I can say two words.....Fasci- nating. Here is a the home page for all to see. I think that ALL ( and I mean EVERYONE ) should see this.

http://www.pbs.org/goldrush/

If you want to buy the 1 hour doc. the number is 800.828.4PBS.

It is a most excellent portrayal of the ENTIRE WORLD exodus to California and the eventual 'rape' of the North American ( indiginous ) Indian from their land. It shows man at his best and worst of times and the strive for wealth and power. I now understand what this 'thing', this gold does to a person ( to you bugs ) and what it is that you all spend your days thinking, living, talking, breathing, etc. about. It is crazy man!!! Gold makes and breaks.......gold is good, gold is evil........gold is....well.......go gold! Buy the video....

And to Haggis ( bugger off ) ....and other detractors of the 'American way' or the way we crazy yanks are.....we are YOU!!!! You numbskull.....wake up....we are an over the top version of YOU!!!! Quit yer crap. It is soooo ooooooold. I yawn. Nuff said. Get the video. Get real, get gold.

away...from the 'Golden State'......California '49....oh my.

49er

and bottoms up...life is good......aaaaaaaaah...

How can ANOTHER produce proof ?

If you want 100% correct information, read my post Jan- 16, 14:36
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/1998q1/1998_01/980116.143642.zivaeeeee.htm

280 WAS THE BOTTOM
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I M THE ONLY ONE ON RECORD AT KITCO AT $280 !
Do you want me to repeat ?
280, 280, 280,,,,,,,,

"If it is taken it will be for the good of all." Your quote pal with your feet in the sand. Hmmmm. I suggest that you think carefully about these words that you bandy about so easily.

Who are these that have decided what is good for all?

To them I say drop dead. I have friends around the globe and they are constantly watching those who think they know best. Royalty has its place on collectors plates and in TV guide, other than that I cannot think of a use for those who think they walk the Earth for a higher purpose.

Let the games begin eh! If I were you I would get a nose job and contact Berlitz pal.

I've heard some insinuate he's an "insider". He'd be labeled a traitor by his gov. Y'all, HE'S JUST A GUY.HIS PREDICTIONS ARE JUST THAT.JEESE!

I'm I the only one that see's the pattern of Another only answers question that asks of his opinion of the outcome of an event, in other words, hypathetical situations where an opinion would suffice.

I'm not trying to be hard on the guy, but is it only me that notices this?

Selby: Demographics explain murder rates. The inverse relationship between the percentage of the population which is of European ancestry and the rate of murder ( and other violent crime for that matter ) is sufficient to satisfy the most rigorous statistician/mathematician. It will not, however, satisfy liberals, who are almost totally impervious to facts. The rate of murder among Americans of German descent is not significantly different from the rate of their gunless cousins in the fatherland. Ditto for English/Americans.

More people were hacked to death with machetes in a few months in Rwanda/Burundi recently than were killed in over 4 years of our great War For Southern Independence.

If Canada keeps it's borders open to third world immigration much longer, you won't have to ask us the question. The answer will be plain to you and your Canadian brethern. But it will be too late.

Simply put, if you went for a walk around your town right now ( 11:40est ) , would you rather meet me with an AK- 47 on my shoulder, or OJ Simpson with a long knife?

One thing is clear if you ask a question about why there are so many people shot to death in one country or another answers come back suggesting that more of the same- - regardless of what the same is- - is needed. Bring on ANOTHER and start tonights entertainment.

Oldman: Good to hear from you again. All I can say is thank heavens for the border.

How dare you speak on subjects other than ANOTHER ?

.

The point that I was trying to make was, acording to Anothers statement as I recall was that once production cost on gold was met, that if you did not have physical in hand, it would be too late to take delivery.

This is from memory, granted it is not verbadum and was my interpretation with what was posted. I can tell you that he did not post that figure because he has not given us anything that concrete to go by.

I thought France was part of the third world!??!

Oldman: You said on the other channel about a two weeks ago that GOLD will go to 250,possibly within one week ( of your post ) .
Well, two weeks already past
DO YOU STILL HOLD TO THIS OPINION ?

or politically incorrectly.
Incidentally, you know the definition of "politics"?
ANSWER; Ya gotta break it dawn into two parts:
POLY; Greek prefix meaning "many"
TICS; Blood suckin' parasites


God, Guts, and Guns
( oh yeah, and GOLD ) ( well, and maybe BEER )

ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:
MoreGold and A. Goose,

We approach production costs, therefore we come to the end

of this game. This is not lost to the oil states. They, along

with three CBs are buying as this is written! The size of these

orders could make the turn? We will see by way of a flat price

over several weeks. If yes, then those with orders of a month

delivery are to late. We approach unsettled times.





Here again it is written as a opinion to a hypathetical situation.

I think possibly last longer than two weeks, just a guess. You don't own a lot of sharp knives do you?

ANOTHER: I think there is much that we can agree on. I don't just mean myself, but fellow Kitcoites.

First - - Gold is a store of value hard to corrupt. Unlike "paper" currencies, a gold currency, or currency fixed relative to an ounce of gold as Tyler Rose has just referred to, will not inflate. With such a currency, all trading countries get in return for theire good, an asset of known value. I find it disturbing that the only remaining bank in the world that uses a non- gold currency firmly linked to gold is the BIS.

Secondly - - Oil is effectively priced in ounces of gold, because that is the only currency that holds its value indefinitely. We Kitcoites are now consciously converting our ideas of "price" based on this concept.

Thirdly - - You mention consuming gold, rather than trading it. Interesting concept. As Allen Greenspan said in one of his lectures ( to the Cato Institute I think - - Oct 97? ) , the gold standard did work well for a while, and countries that had a negative balance of payments had diminishing gold supplies. They were the "consumers" of gold. Those countries who had increasing supplies of gold had an associated positive balance of payments and were savers or as you say traders of gold.

As AG said, this gold standard method worked well, as those countries who were unable to prevent currency inflation ran out of gold, and were forced to address their financial problems if they expected to trade with the others.

Fourth - Risks of "paper" money: I use the term "paper" money rather than "paper" gold, as I think the problems of the future if we have a financial crisis will not be with gold - - but rather the currency currently used to price it - - the US dollar. If we have a financial crisis, and the price of gold rises rapidly, it will be because the US dollar has lost its credibility as a stable currency of value.

Your comments are always interesting, partially because of a cultural difference. Despite this cultural difference, I think the retained value of gold with time immemorial is something we all understand.

You spoke of looking up at the stars, looking for life, and not seeing it. My answer to you is that it is there, but the universe is so big we do not see it. Unless perhaps whoever and what ever it is wants us to see it. We are incredibly lucky to be alive, and intelligent enough to be able to describe to each other such experiences. And, it is my belief that those of us who are able to retain their assets through the hard times that may be coming to all ( not just to SEAsia ) - - will be the ones that will seed the world's economic system for the next major human economic cycle - - the one that will allow us to reach the stars!

Here's to the future!