Hi Ziva. You wrote: "My husband is returning from his 'business trip' with his secretary tonight, and am I preparing a surprise for him...."

Though it perhaps has nothing to do with gold, this surely is of general interest. You will let us know what happens, won't you?

- Tom

Your answer will help me sleep better tonight! My daughter & my patients also thank you! I'll look into AGE ....Maybe we'll all get better w/ AGE!!

For Dr Bob -

All the way

With Echo Bay

..... To the poor house

For Ray and Mike Stewart

Got a long report on Harmony

Dont forget they also have the Unisel Mine

They have 68 million oz of reserves

They say their restructuring will reduce costs

to 250$/oz

They have a disaster mode to enable indefinite

operation at 50% capacity at 200$/oz.

My spread sheet has their cost at 348. Maybe

when I get their results it can be revised

downwards.

I have echo at an astounding $832/oz - If

people insist on buying echo rather than a

mine with more reserves that Barrick selling

at one- eighth its price, they SHOULD go broke.

Experience is the best teacher.

For Ziva the magnificent- what are you trying

to tell me ??

For the Fake Preacher -

Are you still in town ?? get the tar and feathers.

To ROR - Well you see, Virginia lost the

Civil War ( after all we were the ones that

fought it ) and 120 years later, I got p!ssed

off about that and left the country. Also, I

really believe that the spread of US culture

and influence is deadly. Ie - rap music, sit-

coms, "meaningful" tv like "la law", "interpreting'

the news, US journalism, fast food, political

correctness, human rights lawyers, rewriting

history, Spielberg's childish pablum ( try the

holacaust WITHOUT Fiennes and Neesom ( on a roll ) -

boring- boring ) , beavis and butthead . Its about

TIME, and trying to stay a little bit ahead of

the rot.

Do you realize that I lived here for 9 years

for NOTHING - Present assets in this country are

worth more than the money that I brought in 9

years ago ( when timid pipsqueaks were "advising"

me that RSA was "politically unstable" and it

wouldnt be "prudent" to move there ) AND I never

brought in any more money over the 9 year period.

Thank God for these pipsqueaks - they provide

OPPORTUNITY. Think about it.

I've tried there URL for the past 24 hrs and get NO RESPONSE.

Did anyone see the news conference on CNBC on
friday with the above illustrious trio. I believe
the conference was about diversity on Wall Stree.
Any way I thought it very odd that greenspan
would be involved in such a thing. When Greenspan
got up to speak he talked about urging the banks
to pull out the stops and loan more money for
real estate mortgages and other loans to the
downtrodden in the black community. Now I
thought this is rather odd since I have
witnessed many speeches by Greenspan and never
once did I hear him advocate loaning money to
any groug, let alone a segment of the
population that was considered not credit-
worthy.
I got to thinking about how the black community
leaders have been calling for an investigation
into the the death of Commerce Sec'y Ron Brown.
Could this be a payoff to this group to shut
their mouths about calling for an investigation
into the alledged 45 caliber hole in Ron Browns
skull.
Did anyone else see this or do you have an
opinion about this?

For Ziva -

I think you need a vacation - - Visit RSA Now -

Put all this behind you. Fax jdisney@mweb.co.za

Who has 68 million ounces in reserves? Harmony or Unisel? How many shares has the holder of 68 million ounces have outstanding?

It takes a little time to load. But it is the rage at the moment.
http://www.marimba.com/people/woodie/cha.gif

Ziva, in regard to surprise for your husband...

What caliber is it?

Execelent posts!!!

If everybody could do the same when gold
starts moving up, may be gold will not go down...

Maybe Ziva will bobit!!!!ohnoohno@@@###***oweech!

Barb, bobit requires a lot of nerve.

Ziva is just a goldbug...

A Goose: Enjoyed your post! Someone must have done some computer modeling, or there is a child prodigy out there! Next Elvis perhaps?

Looks like the SEAsia crisis has been forgotten, and bottom fishing has begun. Someone posted that the local currencies have not risen in general, but the markets have - - odd behavior if foreign investors are hopping in - - perhaps this rally is local only.
I still wait for the Chinese yuan ( reminbi?? ) devaluation - - - iceberg dead ahead!

Finally, after several sleepless nights
and many thoughts during my business hours,
I got it...

ANOTHER is from Nigeria!!!

They got a lot of oil...

As in four weeks and within $5 of $277.25

For the life of me, I can't figure out why
I was attacked so vituperatively when I
predicted gold would fall last year.

When Oldman or Glenn or RJ or EB tell us
now the bottom is not in, I say "Good for
them, maybe they know something I don't."

Or...maybe I know something they don't.

$Two- seven- seven- two- five ( give or take five )

A number supported by thousands.

My take on said conference is, a calculated effort on the part of Clinton
and AG et al to secure much needed Black caucus support ( votes ) in congress in order to pass their IMF Bail- out, which is in serious trouble
and likely not to ,pass congress without major strings if at all.
After all if US can $ help Foreigners, what about the "poor" Blacks in
the US? They have played same game on other issues securing Black
votes in congress.

RJ wrote

Fred -

Remember, the reason gold producers sell forward is to lock in prices. I have read figures that

some producers are sold up to 80% five years forward. Doesn't matter what the price of gold

is today, they already sold it at a much higher price. They will be diggin' the stuff for years to

come. Those that did not lock in higher prices will fail if gold stays down here much longer ( I

don't think it will ) . They deserve to fail. They will be absorbed by the larger, more successful

producers who had the good sense to hedge their production. As Paul Harvey is wont to say,

"Now you know the REST of the story".

RJ - I wonder if I could respectfully disagree. I'm not singling you out, because the consensus feeling is that these foward loans are all about locking in a price for gold. I don't think that's the case, even though the miners themselves say it and probably believe it. If these forward sales were about hedging, most, if not all the hedges would have been lifted by now. That's what a producer hedge is - you sell high ( way above your production cost ) and buy it back at or close to your production cost. That's what's so screwy about these forward sales, only a miniscule amount has been covered, and we're at the lowest price in decades. Instead, you can count on one hand, the announcements of forward sale closeouts, and the least little rally supposedly still brings Aussie sales. Besides, if these forward sales really did function as hedges where are all the locked in profits and why does the universe of mining co share prices look like Dresdner after the fire- bombing. Don't you find it odd that companies announcing fantastically high lock in prices never seem to announce fantastically high profits?

No, these forward sales are about something else - securing cheap money by agreeing to pay back the metal that's sold at the outset of the metal loan by the CB's. The problem is the mining companies have not thought thru the transaction as the CB's have not. If they both did they would see how stupid metal loans/forward sales really are. Just like the CB's will never get their metal back, the miners won't be able to pay it back - it's just not possible in either case because the currency that the transactions are denominated in ( metal ) is shrinking in circulation. It doesn't make a bit of difference if the price is high or low, the miners can't pay it back. In a low price environment, like now, they suffer. And in a high price environment, they'll discover, just like now, they won't be able to afford to buy back their commitment, because it takes full cash on the barrelhead.

If these forward sales were true hedges, and not part of a fraudulent concoction ( metal loans ) , they would be closed out enmass at these prices. And if one were to argue that the miners haven't covered because they're expecting significantly lower prices, I would suggest they should think of mining something else. The sad fact is that the miners, like the CB's, are locked into transactions with no escape. Don't mean to hit and run, but it's late here on the East Coast.

Date: Tue Jan 20 1998 00:45
JTF ( Great Graphics! Never seen a baby do that before! ) ID#57232:

It is definitely different, thank goodness my babies never had that skill. The orginator:

http://www.marimba.com/people/woodie/

goodnight.

bernatz du hepjohn, and 277.25 give or take 5 ( cents, bucks, whats ) is the bottom? is that what you are saying hepbuddy?

For Jack

Harmony bought out Unisel - there is no unisel

Harmony has 49 mill shares out - makes about 1.5

ounces of gold a share. Barrick has 373 mill shares

out - makes 0.25 oz share. Barrick sells 16- 18$.

Harmony sells for 2 bucks.

So buy Barrick - I dont care - that leaves more

Harmony for me old chap.

All this is in my spread sheet - as all good sportsfans

know. Pegasus was wiped before issuing. Echo will be wiped

soon.

Within five dollars and/or ( now ) four weeks of when
we hit $277.25.

For Boris

I knew you would figure this out.

Good one !!

Hi RJ. You wrote:

"Allow me to hold forth my own extraordinarily and completely humble

opinion on DINES.

"He's a schmoe.

"Feel free to quote me on that."

I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this one, RJ. I used to read Mr. Dines' newsletter back in 1980 when gold soared to $850 an ounce; and as the price continued to drop after that, Dines literally begged and pleaded with his readers to hold on, assuring them that the price would soon bolt to $1200 or more. Those who followed his advice, including my father, lost their proverbial shirts. I had assumed that Dines had gone bankrupt along with some of his readers, and that his newsletter had disappeared. So I was surprised to discover that many goldbugs still consider him a reliable analyst.

In fairness, even the best analysts can be badly wrong at times; and for all I know, perhaps Dines has made some good calls of late. But there was something about the brash confidence he displayed as led his readers astray- - his refusal even to consider the possibility that in 1980 gold might be overpriced in the $700- $800 range- - that made it impossible for me ever to trust this man's judgment again.

- Tom

For Beernuts de hepslop

The TRUE Bernatz is WATCHING you. He is closer than

you THINK.

bernatz du clear and unequivocal answer, thanks.

Is this prediction anything to do with charts, mathematics or statistics, or is it more relevant? By which I mean certain information is more relevant, therefore valuable, simply because it is almost unobtainable, and the possession of it is possibly illegal?

Morning All-

Soemone asked Sharefin about this: I also subscribed and received this in my mail this morning. I think Ziva gave us this URL- Thank you Ziva!

To receive free daily Global Intelligence Updates

or Computer Security Alerts, sign up on the web at

http://www.stratfor.com/mail/, or send your name,

organization, position, mailing address, phone

number, and e- mail address to info@stratfor.com

John D- Morning to you! Missed out quite a bit of Kitco, but have seen some great posts from you on our beautiful RSA. Top form. Take care.

JTF,
Long time dissapeared from the site!Yes,you're right.These few days the stocks around s.e.asia rebound sharply mostly dued to the imf director encouragements,overvalued,speculator"S game and most of all the new year mood!The chinese and muslimans new year will fall on 28 til 4 febuary!long holidays!Today,both the indonesia rupiah and malaysia rm been played again...rupiah plunged!The currencies around here still very unstable...WATCH OUT!The stocks MOSTLY in local mood only!they will liquid once they gained couple of cents!As ted said to me 5 months ago,the stocks here looked liked CASINO!!
This year,TIGER YEAR!Dued to the currencies turmoil,mostly of the chinese goods,foods,oranges ( custume ) ,chinese sausages,.....are hardly seen from the market.I think you get to the point about the reminbi in china!After,the festivals..the big show is ON!FASTEN YOUR SEATBELT!
About 100 millions indonesians citizen lost their bowls from reported.The stable of the politic in INDONESIA still uncleared.And the poll campaigns will start around next month!BUT THE HEAT IS ALREADY ON!
Still hold on my metals,though the retail business still terrible!Many goldshops,manufacturies,closed down!HARD TIME AHEAD!

HAPPY NEW YEAR...HAPPY TRADING!
JIN

You make a good point about the conference, But
I have never witnessed AG getting involved in
anything political. There is always an ongoing
sucking- up to the black community by politicians,
but never by the Federal Reserve.

Dick Gregory, a black leftist activist went on a
hunger strike over the Ron Brown affair and many
others have been demonstrating in public.
Only time will tell. Lets wait and see what
happens to the Ron Brown case, but I remain a
skeptic.

I am going to look into Harmony as close as my time allows.

I may yet become famous for my ability to sequence.

John Disney - I tire of this handle already. You can have it back.
Please ask Bart to give me my former one.

Aurator - Yes.

John Templeton 85, the legendary money manager is apparently pumping his own money into the S. Korean stock mkt in a big way. If I ever make it to 85, I doubt if I'll even buy green bananas.

Welcome back.

He is being humiliated by Paula Jones. Continually frustrated by Israel.
Denied fast track. It's either kick Buddy or attack Iraq.

I wonder what "Bernatz de" has to say about all this?

His personal public involvement is a sure indicator of how very serious
the "Asia" crisis is,despite what their are saying publicly, and further how seriously important this IMF Bail- out Funding is becoming. to continue
to influence market perception. Not that I believe it is going to work in the long run, this is a world trade and currency crisis and no central planners
IMF or USSR or any other has ever been able to resolve same it will
take a major world effort IMHO to at least stop the bleeding.
AG and the PPT et al are very familiar with market meltdowns a la
87 in which his interest rates policies were questioned , and some say
a contributing factor. IMHO he is trying to cover all bases this time including his own deriere.

JIN
Good to see you post again. Best wishes to you. You say Hard Times ahead. I am afraid you're right. We get "Good Asian News" last couple of days in the papers here, make it sound like all is OK and fine now. Also seen TV news of Bangkok protests getting more aggressive. Are you able to access kitco?
Did you get to Kathmandu? ( Long time since I was there! )

Missed the press conference, but in recent years I concentrate on the Comedy Channel. I'm afraid with Slick Willie and AG on the same program, my projectile vomiting would short out the TV.

Dick Gregory was supposed to lead a demonstration in front of the justice Dept. on the Brown controversy today but I'm sure that wasn't newsworthy. Amazing how much coverage Gregory received back in the '60's.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a68142.htm

Will the dealers. those HOUND's emerging from The bowls of the earth force Clinton to cover his ass?
Or be he aware? Ready to strike back with vengence. Yes.....lose his power, but save his country.

For Bearnose de Hepdoom.

Please stop spreading rumours that I am bernatz, beernuts.!

For salty

The REAL bernatz use to get it from the WIZARDS. This guy

gets it from his armpit - stand back !

To all

One share of Harmony represents 6 times as much gold

as one share of Barrick. Barrick sells for 8 times as

much as Harmony - Thus - harmony should sell for 48

times what it sells for - $ 100 a share. I can live with

that.

But DONT buy it - I want it ALL.

What is Clinton's country? The USSR is no more. Must be China since he provided them with a nice west coast seaport to smuggle AK47's into LA as a practice run. But then he also gave the world community a good piece of coal- producing Utah. Must be a non- partisan world patriot.

Thanks for your appreciation,

gold has to go up anyway. No one can piss agains the wind !!

It's whose pulling the strings.

Monday January 19, 8:32 pm Eastern Time

Nikkei may hit lowest since bubble in 1998- Goldman

TOKYO, Jan 20 ( Reuters ) - The Tokyo stock market's benchmark Nikkei 225 average may hit 14,309 this year, the lowest since Japan's bubble economy of the late 1980s burst, Kathy Matsui, chief stategist at Goldman Sachs ( Japan ) Ltd, told a conference on Tuesday.

Japan
Nikkei 225
^N225
1:03AM
16366.53 That would be a 2000 point drop - WOW
+104.49

Matsui said the Nikkei average may weaken again due to downside risks such as the possibility of renewed financial uncertainty, deteriorating economic fundamentals, a supply- demand imbalance in the stock market and risks in overseas markets.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/nikkei_may_1.html

When the Sec. of Treasury Ruben,s buddies ( Printin Clintins dog Buddy was named after them ) speak should we believe what they say or not?

BOJ says low interest rate policy to help economy.
The BOJ's special uncollateralised loans to troubled financial institutions are unlikely to create excess liquidity in the markets, as the central bank is conducting daily operations to avoid such a situation, Matsushita said.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/boj_says_l_2.html

Given the slowdown in the pace of growth, the economy was considered to be vulnerable to further negative impacts, the report
said.


Monday January 19, 8:30 pm Eastern Time

Japan economy to stay stagnant for a while- - BOJ

``In these circumstances, the possibility of the emergence of further downside risks should be carefully observed,'' it said.

A prolonged adjustment in Asian economies was one such possible risk.
The report said the lending attitude of banks had recently become harsher as the weakness of Tokyo share prices and the yen would lead to a decrease in their capital.

Japanese banks have recently limited lending because they must meet stricter capital adequacy requirements to take effect from April.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/japan_econ_2.html

Remember fellow Kitcoites, that many of the programs now put into place expire, or go into effect in the Spring. This story is not over and will, IMHO, escollate again in afew months.

HighRise

A jokie or two for the late evening ( here ) and down under crowd.....Rated R. I thought them funny though.....old but funny.

Jack goes to the doctor and says "Doc I'm having trouble getting my

penis erect, can you help me?"

After a complete examination the doctor tells Jack, "Well the problem

with you is that the muscles around the base of your penis are damaged.

There's really nothing I can do for you except if you're willing to try

an experimental treatment."

Jack asks sadly, "What is this treatment?"

"Well," the doctor explains, "what we would do is take the muscles from

the trunk of a baby elephant and implant them in your penis." Jack

thinks about it silently then says, "Well the thought of going through

life without ever having sex again is too much, let's go for it."

A few weeks after the operation Jack was given the green light to use

his improved equipment. He planned a romantic evening for his girlfriend

and took her to one of the nicest restaurants in the city. In the

middle of dinner he felt a stirring between his legs that continued to

the point of being painful. To release the pressure Jack unzipped his

fly. His penis immediately sprung from his pants, went to the top of the

table, grabbed a roll and then returned to his pants.

His girl friend was stunned at first but then said with a sly smile,

"That was incredible! Can you do it again?" Jack replied with his eyes

watering, "Well, I guess so, but I don't think I can fit another roll in

my ass."

and one more for the road before night, night...

THERE WERE TWO NUNS IN FRANCE WHO WERE RIDING THEIR BIKES DOWN A COUNTRY

ROAD.

THE ONE NUN TURNS TO THE OTHER AND SAYS, "I HAVE NEVER COME THIS WAY

BEFORE". THE

OTHER NUN SAYS IN RESPONSE, "I THINK ITS THE COBBLESTONES".

go gold.

away... ( zzzzzz )



I wrote one posting where I only mentioned the Templars and the kooks come crawling out from the wood work. Some changeling found a means to contact me and wanted me to post this on Kitco for the world to see about the Templars. I'm sure he worked long and hard writing this, so for your reading pleasure I present the following work of delusion on the Templars.

************************************************************************I I think this should be posted on the Kitco sight:

I feel that it is my duty to tell you a little bit about Knights Templar
and their sinful beliefs. Wait! Before you dismiss me as depraved, hear
me out. I might add: they make a virtue of irremediable fault. Never
mind that they never act out of motives that might seem credible or even
understandable to the rest of humanity. What's really important is that
their rantings are but a speck in a constellation of methodologies used
by cameralism to cultivate the purest breed of irresponsibility. I like
to think I'm a reasonable person, but you just can't reason with
hypersensitive braggarts. It's been tried. They don't understand, they
can't understand, they don't want to understand, and they will die
without understanding why all we want is for them not to start wars,
ruin the environment, invent diseases, and routinely do a hundred other
things that kill people. No one is more ostentatious than Templars. In
light of what I just stated, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that from
the very beginning, crass extremists have labored to recruit into their
ranks the sons and daughters of the powerful, famous, and rich. Our real
enemy is the impetuous bookish system that made them as destructive as
they are. Will their insolent careless secret agents focus too much on
one side of the equation and not enough on the broader perspective of
things? Only time will tell. Just look at the bill of fare served up in
recent movies and television programs, and you will hardly be able to
deny that Templars have lost sight of the lessons of history.

Oligarchism is not confined to any specific era, culture, or country.
The practical struggle which now begins, sketched in broad outlines,
takes the following course: their lackeys get so hypnotized by their
simplistic "good guys and bad guys" approach to history that they do not
hear what Templars are really saying. This is clericalism! Fortunately,
most people understand that questionable statistics, pseudo- scientific
studies, and biased reports resort to underhanded tactics. I, for one,
unquestionably disagree with their wicked sermons, pure and simple.

Now, I'm no fan of Templars', but still, this is one letter that
Templars don't want you to read. I, not being one of the many perfidious
swaggerers of this world, find that disgusting artisans are no different
from cocky conceited clergymen. If we take their insinuations to their
logical conclusion, we see that any day now, they will poke someone's
eyes out. It will be objected, to be sure, that they doesn't honestly
want to galvanize a xenophobic feckless hysteria, a large- scale version
of the power- drunk mentality that can coordinate a revolution. At first
glance this may seem to be true, but when you think about it further,
you'll decidedly conclude that I speak from experience. Templars'
underlings accept their churlish scummy declamations without question.
Anyone who takes even a cursory glance at this letter will quickly
discover that unprincipled con artists are unable to see that the police
should lock Templars up and throw away the key.

For the moment, they make no secret of the fact that I lost all respect
for them when I heard they plan to intensify or perpetuate
insurrectionism. If I seem a bit fastidious, it's only because I'm
trying to communicate with them on their own level. A complete
description of the problems with their treatises would occupy several
volumes. Of course, in a discussion of this type, one should indeed
mention that by an odd twist of fate, it is crystal- clear that the
dynamics of the situation are such that when all discoverable facts and
experience fly in the face of Templars' evil world view, Templars
stubbornly hold onto their ignorance as their birthright. My point may
be made clearer by use of an allegorical tale. Suppose a hypothetical
group of three people is standing in a room. One of those people
realizes that the ideological underpinnings of Templars' smear tactics
have struck a receptive chord among literally thousands of stubborn
firebrands. Another goes on and on about Templars' callous diatribes.
But the third can't understand why I think this is tragic. In this
hypothetical situation, it should be obvious that there are certainly
signs that Templars are becoming increasingly delirious. I cannot
emphasize enough how much I resent their pronouncements.

As I remove the veil of ignorance I have lived behind, I find that that
is no excuse for detestable freaks. Pride and solidarity prepare
individuals to become partners in an alliance against yawping
antiheroism. Before I continue, let me state that it's no secret that
the surest way for Templars' confreres to succeed is for them to have a
serious destabilizing effect on our institutions. Don't let Templars
delude you into denying that we ought to teach them a lesson. Speaking
of which, anyone the least bit knowledgeable about their macabre
background would know that the encroachment of ignorant proposed social
programs into the social fabric of our politics, our institutions, and
our laws would give credence to my claim that they have a hidden agenda.
The devil not only finds too much mischief for idle hands to do, but
increasingly in our contemporary world, he causes parasitic ruffians to
carve out space in the mainstream for horny cruel politics. History
teaches us that to ignore or dismiss people like Knights Templars as
narrow- minded mafia dons can have devestating consequences. And that's
all I have to say.

AURATOR,
HI!I did spent my christmas and new year eve in the HIMALAYA REGION for 1 and half The areas seem getting very polluted,over- populations,the inflation rates very high,poverty,unstable politic.....seems liked this few things used to happened in the new age world,isn't?Still u can find some really nice SHIANGLILA REMOTE AREAS around,and the nepalese and tibetans hospitality and warm heart looks only things mantained.
The INDIAN RUPEE Seems weaker day by day...has to disvalueation to competing in the markets or played by the big hands...lets see!some news from japan...not so nice.. http://www.asia1.com.sg/biztimes/2/nasia01.html
.....next week should be quite moment for this region......STORMS .....
.......SOONNN..!?

BYE

Appreciated your post a couple of days ago when you spoke of the old Dodgers in those great years of the 50's. Still remember a Saturday afternoon when Carl Erskine had a no- hitter going. Had to be Ole Diz and Buddy Blatner doing the broadcast since Peewee Reese was still playing short. What our church group was doing that day I can't recall, but at almost every stop a TV allowed us, the 10- year old baseball fanatics, to see another bit of Erskine's gem. Billy Cox, maybe the best fielder ever at third. Carl Furillo, baseball's strongest arm in right- field. Won't bore you but I could probably recall them all including Johnny Podres, the MVP of the 1955 series against the Yankees. When you mentioned "The Duke" recently, I was disappointed to find that you meant the actor and not the center- fielder.

Growing up in a podunk town on the Mason- Dixon line, none of us were Dodger fans but that did not preclude admiration for all of the great players. Thanks for stirring some nice memories.

Gotcha.

Guess your idea for the newsletter is kaput? LGB has converted and Karlito has disappeared. Heard that Karlito is busy with his job as president of the Bardstown Ladies Investment club. Lot of traveling and a lot of speeches. He has to issue No- Doz at the door since the loud snoring tends to drown out his best jokes.

Monday January 19, 7:52 pm Eastern Time
On Monday he told Chinese military officers that any disruption of the flow of oil from the Gulf would clearly have a damaging affect
on China's economy.

BEIJING, Jan 20 ( Reuters ) - U.S. Defence Secretary William Cohen said on Tuesday he was satisfied by assurances in Beijing that Chinese sales of cruise missiles to Iran would end.

``I am satisfied that there will not be any continuation of sales that would contribute to insecurity to our troops in the region,'' he said
in answer to a question about sales of anti- ship cruise missiles.

China first gave the assurance on halting sales of C- 801 and C- 802 missiles during a summit in October between U.S. President
Bill Clinton and Chinese head of state Jiang Zemin.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/china_cohe_2.html

The US Carrier Independence is on its way to the Gulf, supposedly to replace the US Carrier Nemitz. I am sure there will probably be at least a couple of hours when they will both be in the area. Talk about a threat and potential fire power.

Of course there are a bunch of Chinese missles pointed at them now.

HighRise

What was the 1998 Australian gold production?

the 1997 Australian gold production - sorry for the typo

Jin
I was fortunate enough to spend some months in Nepal, meeting and spending lots of time with families of influence. Warmest hearts and most welcoming smiles, especially in winter.
An "old"secretary just returned from Bangkok, her husband's job, he is a telecommunications engineer evaporated, He has returned home, and is now unemployed.

A pandemic skips over geographical obstacles and ignites new hotspots long distances from the original break- out.


JTF et al
Hitch- Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is being repeated here, 17 years after 1st broadcast. The original BBC radio plays still the best imho.

My wife just returned from visiting her family in the Philippines and her observations are very similar to yours. Knowledgable people in her family are very afraid of the future. Companies are rumored to be planning massive layoffs. Inflation appears to be much much higher than the government reported 6% rate. She said the prices there were higher than the U.S for many things which is an extreme reversal from just a couple of years ago. Also, several large banks are rumored to be in trouble.

Dave in CO: Did your wife note whether or not people there were buying gold in the face of all this uncertainty?

China has been on my mind quite a bit lately - - so now that there has been some mention of it here I will discuss some of the disturbing trends that I noticed among the Chinese intellectual youth. As a grad student I have befriended many young intelligent Chinese scientists. ALL of them report that their young comrades are highly patriotic and would most enthusiastically support a war in the region, especially with hated Japan or Taiwan. One of my good friends, L. Zhou, is one of these people. Ms. Zhou also happened to graduate tops in her class at Peking University, the premier institution of higher learning in the nation. Amazingly, she completely supports the suppression of Tibet and Xinjiang, and thinks that Taiwan should be taken by force. She says that if China ever went to war with Japan, she could expect that most of her class at Peking U. would volunteer to help out the cause. This incredible idealism among the intellectual elite was fostered by years of indoctrination - - for instance, the horrors of Nanjing are taught to the schoolchildren each year, and the lessons are designed to cause great anger and sadness.

I have friends from all over China and they all report the same thing. However, the tensions seem to be particularly high in Guangzhou City, in the southeast. This is also the wealthiest area in China, and least under the thumb of Beijing ( with the possible exception of the Xinjiang province ) .

I think that it is really frightening when so many young, intelligent people enthusiastically support a war in the region. If these people can be duped, just imagine how easy it would be to galvanize the proles.

I get the impression that China is just biding its time, waiting for a destabilization in the West before it tries to take Taiwan by force. Y2K fits the bill nicely, as China will be let off comparatively leniently than the rest of the world.

Hyundai, LG Bow to IMF Demand

LG Group, the country's third largest
conglomerate,
The company will repay loans through the
closure of marginal companies and plans
to reduce its debt- to- equity ratio to less
than 200 percent by 2002, the statement
said.

Currently, the debt- equity ratio is
estimated at 372 percent.

SINGAPORE - Koh Beng Seng, the former
deputy managing director of the Monetary
Authority of Singapore ( MAS ) , is set to
become an adviser to the International
Monetary Fund ( IMF ) in Thailand,
informed sources say.



The company expected to reduce the cost
of import by at least 5 percent if it could
conclude a deal with domestic
manufacturers, Visit said. 

Worldpage paging service operator plans
to increase the price of its pagers by 50
percent next month, in accordance with
increasing import costs resulting from the
baht depreciation, according to the
company's Vice- President and Deputy
Managing Director Visit Khunnirundorn. 

They will all try to go domestic when and where ever they can!

SINGAPORE - Koh Beng Seng, the former
deputy managing director of the Monetary
Authority of Singapore ( MAS ) , is set to
become an adviser to the International
Monetary Fund ( IMF ) in Thailand,
informed sources say.

It is not unusual for the Washington- based
supranational agency to sign on
consultants for a fixed period of time,
either part- time or full- time.

HighRise

She didn't mention anyone buying gold. The members of her family who invest spoke of the U.S. as the "safe haven" she said. I guess the magic of CNBC has brought brain- washing to the Philippines. One of her relatives owns a bank in Manila and several others work there so they should be knowledgable enough to think for themselves. But even in this country I understand the number of PM investors is only around 2% .

FORMER WHITE HOUSE INTERN DENIES SEX WITH PRESIDENT IN SWORN
AFFIDAVIT; JUDGE ASKS FOR SETTLEMENT PROPOSAL

**Exclusive**
**Must Credit the DRUDGE REPORT**

Former White House intern Monica Lewinsky, 23, has denied having
any "sexual relationship with President Clinton" in a sworn
affidavit, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. Lewinsky's sworn written
statement was executed after she was served with a subpoena in the
Paula Jones sexual harassment case.

NBC was busy developing a story Monday afternoon on Lewinsky. NBC
obtained a leaked copy of Lewinsky's affidavit and was reading
portions of it to sources to provoke comment. The STAR tabloid is
preparing a package.

The former White House intern was to be a player in a stunning
NEWSWEEK expose that was killed at 6 p.m. on Saturday evening.

The DRUDGE REPORT revealed late Saturday night that reporter
Michael Isikoff had developed the story of his career, only to have
it spiked at the last minute.

While it is not clear just who stopped the presses on the report
that was built around the existence of intimate taped phone
conversations, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned that top NEWSWEEK
editors had approved Isikoff's story for publication.

Katherine Graham, Chairman of the WASH POST/NEWSWEEK GROUP, could
not be reached for comment.

Elsewhere, Paula Jones Judge Susan Webber Wright has admonished
both sides in the case to have a workable settlement proposal on
her desk in four weeks, it has been learned. The judge's request
came during Saturday's face- to- face meeting in Washington when all
directly involved in the case were present.

There is talk of a settlement proposal that may allow some form of
delayed payment that would be made after the president leaves
office.

X X X X X

Thanks for the China Post.
Remember, It would seem only natural that the most patriotic Chinese are allowed to progress in school in China, and I would guess that the same is true for those that are permitted to leave the country and study in the US.

My concern is are the stories/reports that many of these Chinese visitors to the US are latent Spies that will be come active later after they are once established in American industry etc.

When I was returning from Hong Kong a couple of years ago I couldn't help but notice the large number of Chinese on the plane and going through imigrations. One student looking young man, wearing an army green jacket, was reading Mao on the plane. Once the book was put away just another student - a Trojan Horse.

I am also concerned with the recent alignment with South Africa and other Nations. The new Silk Road, trade relations with Russia and the Arab Oil / missiles to Iran, really should be a concern to the World Order.

HighRise





Tr

Monday January 19, 8:32 pm Eastern Time

Nikkei may hit lowest since bubble in 1998- Goldman

TOKYO, Jan 20 ( Reuters ) - The Tokyo stock market's benchmark Nikkei 225 average may hit 14,309 this year, the lowest since Japan's bubble economy of the late 1980s burst, Kathy Matsui, chief stategist at Goldman Sachs ( Japan ) Ltd, told a conference on Tuesday.

Japan
Nikkei 225
^N225
1:03AM
16366.53 That would be a 2000 point drop - WOW
+104.49

Matsui said the Nikkei average may weaken again due to downside risks such as the possibility of renewed financial uncertainty, deteriorating economic fundamentals, a supply- demand imbalance in the stock market and risks in overseas markets.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/nikkei_may_1.html

When the Sec. of Treasury Ruben,s buddies ( Printin Clintins dog Buddy was named after them ) speak should we believe what they say or not?

BOJ says low interest rate policy to help economy.
The BOJ's special uncollateralised loans to troubled financial institutions are unlikely to create excess liquidity in the markets, as the central bank is conducting daily operations to avoid such a situation, Matsushita said.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/boj_says_l_2.html

Given the slowdown in the pace of growth, the economy was considered to be vulnerable to further negative impacts, the report
said.


Monday January 19, 8:30 pm Eastern Time

Japan economy to stay stagnant for a while- - BOJ

``In these circumstances, the possibility of the emergence of further downside risks should be carefully observed,'' it said.

A prolonged adjustment in Asian economies was one such possible risk.
The report said the lending attitude of banks had recently become harsher as the weakness of Tokyo share prices and the yen would lead to a decrease in their capital.

Japanese banks have recently limited lending because they must meet stricter capital adequacy requirements to take effect from April.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/japan_econ_2.html

Remember fellow Kitcoites, that many of the programs now put into place expire, or go into effect in the Spring. This story is not over and will, IMHO, escollate again in afew months.


Monday January 19, 7:52 pm Eastern Time
On Monday he told Chinese military officers that any disruption of the flow of oil from the Gulf would clearly have a damaging affect
on China's economy.

BEIJING, Jan 20 ( Reuters ) - U.S. Defence Secretary William Cohen said on Tuesday he was satisfied by assurances in Beijing that Chinese sales of cruise missiles to Iran would end.

``I am satisfied that there will not be any continuation of sales that would contribute to insecurity to our troops in the region,'' he said
in answer to a question about sales of anti- ship cruise missiles.

China first gave the assurance on halting sales of C- 801 and C- 802 missiles during a summit in October between U.S. President
Bill Clinton and Chinese head of state Jiang Zemin.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980119/china_cohe_2.html

The US Carrier Independence is on its way to the Gulf, supposedly to replace the US Carrier Nemitz. I am sure there will probably be at least a couple of hours when they will both be in the area. Talk about a threat and potential fire power.


Hyundai, LG Bow to IMF Demand

LG Group, the country's third largest
conglomerate,
The company will repay loans through the
closure of marginal companies and plans
to reduce its debt- to- equity ratio to less
than 200 percent by 2002, the statement
said.

Currently, the debt- equity ratio is
estimated at 372 percent.

SINGAPORE - Koh Beng Seng, the former
deputy managing director of the Monetary
Authority of Singapore ( MAS ) , is set to
become an adviser to the International
Monetary Fund ( IMF ) in Thailand,
informed sources say.



The company expected to reduce the cost
of import by at least 5 percent if it could
conclude a deal with domestic
manufacturers, Visit said. 

Worldpage paging service operator plans
to increase the price of its pagers by 50
percent next month, in accordance with
increasing import costs resulting from the
baht depreciation, according to the
company's Vice- President and Deputy
Managing Director Visit Khunnirundorn. 

They will all try to go domestic when and where ever they can!

SINGAPORE - Koh Beng Seng, the former
deputy managing director of the Monetary
Authority of Singapore ( MAS ) , is set to
become an adviser to the International
Monetary Fund ( IMF ) in Thailand,
informed sources say.

It is not unusual for the Washington- based
supranational agency to sign on
consultants for a fixed period of time,
either part- time or full- time.


Prime Minister Wants to Resell F- 18 Fighters
PRIME Minister Chuan Leekpai favours
reselling 18 US jet fighters to a third
country but admits it may not be possible.

Chuan said he would prefer to find a third
buyer for the F/18 squadron to relieve the
cash- strapped government of the
393- million- dollar burden.

But business leaders reportedly urged the
government to scrap the deal altogether,
saying Thailand was not obliged to buy all
the planes as only a deposit had been
paid.

Thai Chamber of Commerce Vice
Chairman Chirayudh Vasuratna said the
government could find a cheaper deal in
Europe or Russia.

But Chuan said a purchase contract had
been signed with plane manufacturer
McDonnell- Douglas.

Chuan last week asked visiting US
Defense Secretary William Cohen to help
soften the impact of the deal, which was
signed before the economy crashed last
year.
http://www.loxinfo.co.th/~bday/

Then there were the bats. Cohen said an Indonesian soldier standing at attention was rapped in the chest by another soldier and at the moment of impact a bat flew out of his mouth. Another rap on the chest, another bat in flight. In all, six bats escaped, one at a time, from the soldier's mouth.

Hearing Cohen's telling of the bat story, some reporters expressed skepticism and suggested the defense secretary might have been taken in by some Indonesian slight- of- hand ( or mouth ) . But Cohen would have none of that.

``I was there. I saw it,'' he protested.
http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/news100z.htm

Will be interesting to see what develops. Michael Isikoff, who is one of the most highly regarded reporters around, had his story on this 23- year- old girl spiked at the last minute by Newsweek. It's doubtful that he would have put his by- line on a story he wasn't positive about.

Sworn testimony from this White House employee could have been a deciding factor for impeachment since it would probably have been viewed as clear- cut sexual harrassment. The poor little girl probably heard about what happened to Vince Foster ( back when she was in high school. )

In the days of capitalism, a loan and a gold loan were the same thing. A bond was in gold and it was said of a man who had a reputation for keeping his word, that his word was his bond. In other words what he said was as good as gold. Sound familiar ?

By reports, the CB of the world a while back hit upon the bright idea of lending out their gold on the stipulation that the metal be returned at a future date plus 1- 2% interest. Interest in the world of capital banking means more gold, but since these are not real bankers ( banksters being a more accurate term ) , I think we can infer interest meant $ and that a $ value was assigned to the metal when it was loaned out. Now two types would be in the market for this metal loan: miners and speculators. The miner is interested because he can sell the gold right away and he has an obligation then due that he can mostly pay back with product out of future production. If the miner sells this gold and futures contracts for delivery, too, sells in excess of his production capacity, in other words, he is not a miner anymore, but a speculator. Like the speculator he is gambling that he can buy his commitmment back for less than he sold it.

But now the price has dropped, but no mining companies are reporting profits from closing out hedge positions. What does this mean ? It means either the mining companies do not have the $ to buy back their commitments or the people to whom they were sold aren't interested in selling or a combination.

The interesting question is if a miner will produce 1 ton for the market in a given month, but a metal obligation of 1 ton is due to the CB that month along with a 1 ton metal obligation to the open market in a futures contract, which of the miner's obligations has precedence ?

Gee, there may really be something to this physical supply and physical demand stuff after all. This will no doubt come as an eye opener to con men.

I am reminded of the story by Mark Twain of trading in mining stocks in Denver. A fellow started selling of stock he did not have possession of. That depressed the price which made the mine owners mad. They came to town with their gold and bought all the outstanding shares back at the low price. When delivery day came, there were just no shares on the market. So, ...

Lurker1: the legal tender statute says that if you are tendered an FRN the debt is discharged whether or not you accept it. So you find that debts are also discharged in the Uniform Commercial Code. A debt is never paid with a note. In the real world of real money ( specie ) , you cannot pay debt with debt.

Central planning is centralized conspiracy. Where the central planning is of "money supply", the operative part of conspiracy is con.

You can fit all the elements of socialist government under three headings: armed guards, con men, and their liability accounts. The FRN is just evidence of debt: a note.

There is nothing, not even my broken hands, nothing will stop me, I appreciate what Stevie sees that I search for. On this day he says Happy Birthday to Martin Luther King. So Be It.

Done.

Sir. Always Faithfull...

I will awaken the children....my heart is heavy, the children, I pity my enemies.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980117/indonesia__4.html

Does anyone know of a syte where you can find minute by minute updates of the world's currency values??

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/980118/politics/stories/asia_8.html

It appears to me at times that Confucian "obedience to authority" does not extend beyond the Chinese homeland or, when beyond their borders, the household. There is a tendency for the indoctrinated, yet unwise, to lump all Westerners into one loathesome category. Here they repeat a mistake made by the Japanese more than fifty years ago. I would hope that they do not further that mistake in kind.

There are so many points to make on the China subject that I won't belabor this forum. Suffice it to say, the U.S. and the remainder of the G- 7 must continue to engage the PRC every step of the way in every aspect of their existence, until they achieve much better economic and political stability. I believe this will be a major point of discussion at the upcoming G- 7 conference.

Back to the PM's.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980116/japan_post_1.html

to discover which mining companies have made metal loans from CB's or would they just show the loan in $ terms or is there possibly a loophole in the accounting rules so they would not be "legally" obliged to reveal the metal loan at all ?

Donald, I couldn't help but repeat:

"Not another dime should go to the IMF or its neo- socialist little sister the World Bank," former Republican presidential candidate Pat Buchanan wrote in a recent column. "These leeches of American capital should have been exterminated like the parasites they are, decades ago."

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/980118/politics/stories/asia_8.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980118/philippine_2.html

Am astonished to find the IMF and World Bank being labelled as Socialist.

Please define your version of socialism.

It seems to me that every time some agency does something you disagree with they become socialists.

Those IMF guys are Ivory Tower types and tend to work in a way that solves the problems of other Ivory Tower types. My two posts of today about looting in Indonesia and attacks on oil companies in the Philippines are begining to define the way this currency crisis will be played out.

The IMF perpetuates a system of "half- capitalism" Gains are privatized but losses are socialized, passed back to the taxpayer.

Japanese moving funds from private investment to postal savings... I believe there were suggestions in November that Japan's government was considering "bailing out" Japanese banks using pension funds and postal savings funds, although I don't know if they put that into practice.

Could be a case of 'out of the frying pan...'???

I suppose the Japanese saver figures, correctly, that if my banker goes belly- up I loose everything. If the Postal Savings gets in trouble at least they can print the money to pay me back. Similar to buyiny T- Bills in the U.S. and most countries.

That's the way of the world. The little people always end up paying for the big people's mistakes. Nothing socialistic about that.

The following story was published last weekend in an austrian newspaper. Though the source is a credible one, the news did not find its way into TV or other print media as far as I know:
EU sent a official reminder to the govts of Austria, Germany and Luxembourg with the request to add Value added tax to gold coins and bullion. As - at least Austria- does not intend to do so, there will be an action before the european court ( EUGH ) somewhen in the future. In case, Austria is forced to add VAT, this would mean that the ministery of finance would have to try to recollect VAT for all sales after Austria joining EWR in 1994. ( As you buy gold usually anonymously, I wonder how they should manange it! ) . The main argument against the requested VAT is that Austrian Gold- Coins ( at least Phillies ) are legal currency and thus there is no VAT- obligation according to EU- law.

I wonder what the issue is..

Ask any Chinese they will tell you that China has always been the Middle Kingdom, a country gods created between heaven and earth, below the gods and ABOVE all other human beings.

GEB

The IMF only looks like the problem, but the real problem is the central banks which are in the IMF. Anything you can say about the IMF is also true of the Federal Reserve, the BOJ, or DeutscheBank. They all selectively subsidize losers while allowing winners to keep their gain. Whether or not you are a subsidized loser depends soley on politics. The con men reward those who help keep up the con and ignore those who don't. So, if I host a public appearance and introduce the con man as being responsible for the great economic growth in my industry or my little town, I am scoring points that I hope to collect in subsidy: tax, privilege, loan, grant, or what not. The IMF has an "image" problem because it only comes to town when there is a problem. Unlike the members of the national con who come to town for plant openings, grant awards, loan handouts, etc.

If the Japanese had really lost confidence in the banking system, they would be buying gold. Watching thhe S Koreans sell their gold for paper convinced me nothing is going to wake these sleepwalkers up. The people out there are so brainwashed they don't know up from down.

Socialist is any system where wealth is redistributed without the mandate of it's original owner/creator.

So WB and IMF are not socialist, they work after the mandate of democraticaly elected governments therefore expressing the will of people of United States, Germany, Canada, Australia ( the list can be continued )

( - : )

Donald
They tend to feed themselves,
They look after their own.

Time for a change - Yes?
And now Soharto says wait another 5 years.
Sorry another repost. ( g )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Thursday, the ageing Suharto announced a new IMF- sponsored reform package to try to stem the blood- letting on the country's financial markets.

He also predicted zero growth and 20 percent inflation in fiscal 1998/99 ( April- March ) , figures which sent a shiver across corporate Indonesia and raised the spectre of civil unrest.

World leaders have praised Suharto for agreeing to open closed sectors of the once- booming economy, scrap food monopolies and curtail some of his children's varied business interests in the package of fresh reforms.

Suharto has continued to come under pressure to step down at the end of his term in March and there have been unprecedented questions openly expressed about his competence.

Suharto, who took power in 1965 and built his career on stability and growth, is however widely expected to stand and be re- elected.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980117/indonesia__4.html
***Yes - for another five years***

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
bernatz
You are getting slow!
It could well be below $270 within a few days.
After falling $10 over the last few.

But what of the next bottom?
How low do we go?
And how fast will we get there?
And will it be the last?

Time and price are accelerating,
Watch the volatility expand.

Capital is gold and silver. If you have gold and silver in your pocket to go the the grocery store, you live under a capitalist government. If you have paper, you live under a socialist government. It's just ever so much easier to confuse people about who is subsidizing whom with printed paper and accounts than it is with substance.

So, what you are saying is demon- cracy cannot be socialist.
If you, me, and another guy are on an island, and me and the other guy vote to take your stuff for the good of all, by force if necessary, what do you call that ?

Capital is production capacity, when you have your own food, house, backyard, education & tech. library and commodities industry you dont need gold at all.

I see the fiat currency system as power struggle between bankers and productive sphere. When the system of wealth distribution to banks and byrocrats collapses bankers are back where they were in middle ages. Wealthy if they back good projects and ruined when they dont, in any case without political power.

Geb

IDT AND DAVE IN CO,
As a goldsmaiths ( retail/wholesaler ) in my region,i noticed that the encouragements during this time of currencies turmoil was very weak.my business dropped nearly 70% ( app ) .To us,this is the most worst season we been facing last twenty years!!
Acuatlly,last couples of months until these days,the gold bars been sold out from THAILAND, malaysia and others countries around s.e.asia!from the private to the govts ( though not official ) to support the financial problems!Same as the refinery metals ( gold ) ,the supply is over...the demand are weak!!Even the premium for imported BARS are too high for local peoples!
These week,dued to the festival and the dis embarkation of illegal immigrations,many indonesian bought gold back to the country.I wonder once these over,WHO ELSE WANT GOLD...!!?Any comments..?
Thats all from the penisular....sorry for poor grammar,i'll try my best next post!
happy trading...

You are right of course..I was heading toward that. Any big government system and therefore welfare state is socialist by nature, since big government needs a lot of resources and so introduces VAT, income tax, real estate tax and so on, to subsidize, regulate, guarantee, provide and borrow more.

And that is exactly what is going on in US and western Europe. The result in the end will be similar to Soviet Union. just think of it, decreasing motivation to work, "shadow economy", diminishing real wages and educational standards and so on.

The next question is "Why Soviet Union is poorer now compared to upmentioned hemisphere". The answer is people in Russia were poorer BEFORE the revolution as well.

Geb

REGIONALISM: from the Opening Statement by H.E. Dato Ajit Singh, secretary- general of ASEAN, on the inauguration of the ASEAN- CHINA Joint Cooperation Committee Meeting, Beijing, 26 February 1997

Mr. Ajit Singhs 10 Points ( summarized ) :
1. Tribute to Mr. Deng Xiaoping ...who believed strongly in Asean and China working closely together at the bilateral and the sub- regional level for the benefit of our peoples.

2. Common boundary when Asean expands to include Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar...will share a contiguous boundary with China stretching from Vietnam in the east to Myanmar in the west.

3. neighbors...have a common stake in the peace and stability of our region...

4. ...Relations, which date back to historical times, rest of firm foundation, our trade and economic ties have shown phenomenal growth...

5. ...Issues concerning peace and stability...to be discussed regularly...April bilateral meeting in Huangshan in April 1997 to bring our countries and our peoples together in a spirit of friendship and closer cooperation.

6. Cooperation in facing WTO...The planned railway from Singapore to Kuning in Southern China will serve as a great symbol and a concrete manifestation of our shared destiny...

7. ...umbrella committee which will oversee the various facets of Asean- China relations, ranging from trade and economic matters ...to social development.

8. In this connection, I would like to thank the government of the Peoples Republic of China for its generous contribution of US $700,000 to establish the Asean- China cooperation fund.

9. I am also pleased to see that representatives of the Asean private sector...are also present here today...

10. Permit me to mention how much we in Asean have appreciated the role the Vice- Premier and Minister of Foreign Affairs, H.E. Mr. Qian Qichen, has played in strengthening Asean- China relations. He has worked hard and tirelessly and has personally attended all the Asean foreign ministerss meetings since 1991...and has developed close and friendly rapport with his Asean counterparts.

18 OF THE DINES LETTER'S PAST PREDICTIONS - Right- On- The- Money!!

The Dines Letter was the world's only investment advisory to have predicted the Asian currency crash in advance. Some of these past 18 predictions are already coming true.

During the last two years the internationally recognized market analyst, James Dines, has made some incredibly audacious predictions... and they are turning out as he foresaw them. Here is a review of his fast- forward & quite accurate view of the current currency chaos sweeping ALL ASIA.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Date: Tue Jan 20 1998 00:26
Pete ( All- Does anyone know what happened to the Fiends Superbear Page? ) ID#22451:

Pete
His server has been having dramas.
Should be fixed soon.
Maybe new server?

If you want to be Humpty Dumpty and have words mean just what you say they mean, I can't stop you.
You would say a chicken is capital by your definition because it can produce eggs.
If I put my chicken on deposit with you and went down the street and wrote a check for a chicken to John, but when John came to you, the chicken was dead, John would know a chicken is not capital. Your house will deteriorate and may burn down. Your car will rust. The commodity market may not open. None of these are the same over time.
Capital keeps a constant weight and purity over time in the absence of fraud, so that what is withdrawn from deposit is exactly the same as what was deposited. That makes it suitable as a medium of honest exchange AND honest accounts. If you say capital means anything but gold and silver, you are just re- writing history to suit yourself.

SOROS KNOWS, BUT WONT TELL... About Gold & the Dollar

That Soros won't reveal more about his position on the fate of fiat currencies ( and thus his opinion on gold ) is significant. Something is undoubtedly up his sleeve as we have witnessed in his recent positioning in the silver market ( Apex ) as silver is due to skyrocket ( see Ted Butler's recent article ) . More than any other player in the market today, Soros's every move should be monitored. Given Soros's measurable success in currency markets, and given his alliance with the world's greatest and oldest market makers ( the Rothschilds ) , Soros is undoubtedly beginning to play part of his hand. These two players will undoubtedly be key market makers in resolving the war between fiat currencies ( the U.S. $ ) and GOLD.

To read the Alchemy of Financial Checkmate - Epilogue report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Jin: Always a pleasure to hear from you! Sounds like you had a great vacation ( if that is what it was ) . Your comments about India make sense - - competitive devaluation. The Indians better buy their gold soon - - because after the devaluation it will be alot more expensive!
In answer to your question about why noone local is buying gold - - you've already had your financial crisis ( at least most of it I would guess ) , so now people want to sell gold, not buy it. Food and shelter are more important than gold - - but without gold, how does one even get that?
I think after this crisis ends, SEAsia will be alot more cautious about trusting their economic system to an unstable foreign currency - - the US dollar! As Hashimoto said, he was more upset that the US dollar was moving up and down, more than he was upset about what it was worth. When SEAsians again have income in excess of what they need, they will buy gold and similar items of value - - so they do not have a repeat experience of the current financial crisis.
What worries me is that SEAsians naturally buy more gold per person than an American or even for that matter a European. When the inevitable happens to us, we will be far less able to handle the crisis. Personally, I doubt that most Americans and Europeans will learn from this lesson of modern history.
Please take care - - we always are happy to hear from you, and know everything is ok in such hard times.
JTF

YES Lihir is approaching the big end of town with 900 million shares on issue and a market capitalisation of around $1.4 billion. Lihir is still small compared to Normandy which has a market capitalisation of around $2.5 billion. The stock is currently trading on a PE of 35X and is probably factoring in the mine's expansion. Lihir is currently performing in line with the gold sector, whereas Normandy is an outperformer. It appears that international investors, particularly the North Americans, are hanging back and waiting for the gold sector as a whole to pick up before jumping back into Lihir. The next major expansion is due around year 2000 and at that point the PE should fall to around 18X. This would be a better time to invest in Lihir. As for the major shareholders, Rio Tinto own approximately 17% ( many people in the market think they wish to divest ) , Nuigini Mining Ltd 17.15% , Mineral Resources Lihir Pty Ltd 17.15% , and Vengold 10% . Is Lihir a takeover target? Well you could probably speculate that many of the Australian listed gold companies are targets in the current environment. Lihir is not even close to being the lowest cost gold producer.

Spock, you might try Bloomberg's web page... bloomberg.com; it does a rather reasonable job of updating currencies on a rather frquent basis. I used it when on a recent trip to Russia and it worked quite well. Also, they do a decent job of updating gold, crude, and other commodity prices.

Further, reuters.com works quite well.

Regards, TGL

Imagine a country which posesses all the gold in world and nothing else and the one which possesses all the gold and steel industries in the wold which one is richer?

This situation is hypothetical, but there have been some examples in history which have been close.

Before Crist: Assyria later Persia possessed 3/4 of worlds gold, Rome possessed agricultural capacity, it was Roman era

Medieval times: Spain possessed 3/4 of worlds gold and silver, England had coal and iron, it ended with British empire.

turn of the century: British empire posessed majority of gold, US and Germany were leading STR countries, British Empire was reduced to UK real fast..

Whats next?..wish I would know.

Geb

Gold goes where the brains, skills and system whish makes it easy to use them is AND NOT THE OPPOSITE

From a distance and from public reports, it appears Russia is still socialist since the people still have paper in their pocket when they go to the grocery store. Apparently, the old government couldn't get people to work hard enough to keep the con men and their armed guards in the style to which they aspired. So, they adopted the corporate rat race form of socialism along with the sleight of hand "money supply" system. As long as you can get people to work for you for printed paper, you can always come out ahead.

Prosperity is kind of a function of how many armed guards and con men do you have to work to support to my way of thinking.

Was Gore getting a kicker from his/their waste disposal deal in Tennessee? I know a little about the mob and the trash biz in Jersey and NY. More than I want to know...in fact, I just forgot.

He'll probably utilize Super Funds to clean up the mess. He has such a concern for the environment...yea, right! I wouldn't let that idiot drive a trash truck...what in the world did the people of Tenn. see in that bore...his ol' man I guess.

International finance: Europe looks to play wider role in global money system
TUESDAY JANUARY 20 1998
By Lionel Barber in Brussels

Signs emerged yesterday that the European Union aims to play a bigger role in the management of the international financial system, with the US and Japan.

Philippe Maystadt, Belgian finance minister and long- time chairman of the
International Monetary Fund's interim committee led calls for a new trilateral dialogue between members of the future European single currency zone, the US and Japan.

http://www.ft.com/hippocampus/v7c92e.htm

Yes, gold's value is its use as the unit of exchange for honest trade and honest accounts. It seems most of the world has forgotten that.

IHT Tues Jan 20 1998
Jakarta Merges Banks To Reignite Economy
By Seth Mydans New York Times Service

JAKARTA - Moving quickly to begin restarting the country's
economic engine, Indonesia has announced the first of an expected
series of bank mergers aimed at making the financial system more
efficient and accountable.
http://www.iht.com/IHT/TODAY/index.html

Real bankers ( those who have capital ) have political influence when governments get in debt to them.
These modern banksters have political influence because they are helping keep up the con that printed paper is "money". If people went to the Department of Money to get loans and so forth, they would know they were dealing with bureaucrats after a while. As it is, they can sleepwalk and the word "bank" helps to keep them from waking up.

http://www.cnbceurope.com/news/story3.htm
Germany's trade surplus widens beyond expectations

Germany's trade surplus widened beyond expectation in November as exports fell but imports fell further. These falls come amid concern about the impact of the Asian financial crisis on German industry.

Exports slid 3.6% to 79.3 billion Deutsche marks ( $43.2 billion ) but the decline was outpaced by a 6.6% drop in imports to 66.2 billion marks, the Federal Statistics Office reported. The trade surplus for November expanded to 13.1 billion marks from a revised 11.4 billion marks in October.

The impact of the Asian crisis is beginning to be felt in other countries already. Switzerland's December trade balance narrowed to a surplus of CHF475.1 million ( $317.3 million ) after a revised surplus of SF840.5 million in November, the customs office said. Exports to the region were 1.1% less than in the fourth quarter of 1996. During the first three quarters exports to the region had risen 13.2% .

Other economic indicators like the Ifo institute's business climate index and the BME/Reuters purchasing managers' index have also recently shown a dampening of business expectations as worries about the possible impact of the Asian crisis take hold.

The current account, the widest measure of trade in goods and services, swung to a surplus of 2.6 billion marks from a revised deficit of 4.4 billion marks, the Office said. The trade surplus was above market forecasts which was around 10.8 billion marks. Economists had predicted that the current account would show a slight deficit of 0.8 billion marks.

In the eleven months January through November, the trade surplus widened to 118.6 billion marks from 90.7 billion in the year- earlier period. The current account deficit narrowed in the first eleven months to 8.8 billion marks from 19.9 billion, the Office said.

The current account comprises exports and imports of merchandise, payments and receips for services such as shipping, banking and tourism, private transfers like remittances from migrant workers and official transfers such as contributions to international bodies like the European Community.

Many of us have lost lots of money over the past few years, but this market is at, or close to, bottom. DONT LET IT TAKE YOU OUT, WHEN IT MOVES,IT MAY GET AWAY QUICKLY!!! Let common sense be your guide, at what price would you bet the farm on gold? For the average investor, gold will never be cheap enough, he will only buy when it is to high. This is the reason most westerners depise gold.
Haggis, you crusty old fart, have a good day in Kalgoorlie , you are my kinda guy {smile}.

Many of us have lost lots of money over the past few years, but this market is at, or close to, bottom. DONT LET IT TAKE YOU OUT, WHEN IT MOVES,IT MAY GET AWAY QUICKLY!!! Let common sense be your guide, at what price would you bet the farm on gold? For the average investor, gold will never be cheap enough, he will only buy when it is to high. This is the reason most westerners depise gold.
Haggis, you crusty old fart, have a good day in Kalgoorlie , you are my kinda guy {smile}.

Many of us have lost lots of money over the past few years, but this market is at, or close to, bottom. DONT LET IT TAKE YOU OUT, WHEN IT MOVES,IT MAY GET AWAY QUICKLY!!! Let common sense be your guide, at what price would you bet the farm on gold? For the average investor, gold will never be cheap enough, he will only buy when it is to high. This is the reason most westerners depise gold.
Haggis, you crusty old fart, have a good day in Kalgoorlie , you are my kinda guy {smile}.

Many of us have lost lots of money over the past few years, but this market is at, or close to, bottom. DONT LET IT TAKE YOU OUT, WHEN IT MOVES,IT MAY GET AWAY QUICKLY!!! Let common sense be your guide, at what price would you bet the farm on gold? For the average investor, gold will never be cheap enough, he will only buy when it is to high. This is the reason most westerners depise gold.
Haggis, you crusty old fart, have a good day in Kalgoorlie , you are my kinda guy {smile}.

http://www.cnbceurope.com/news/Story6.HTM
Bank of Japan confirms economy is stagnant

Bank of Japan Governor Yasuo Matsushita confirmed that Japan's economy has stalled and the central bank will continue putting priority on bringing the economy back on its feet. Meanwhile, US Ambassador to Japan Thomas Foley stepped up the intensity of US pleas for Japan to take further steps to reduce its trade surplus with America.

With corporate and consumer sentiment gaining more cautiousness, Matsushita expressed hope for an early passage and implementation of various economic stimulus policies mapped out by the government and also called for a smooth passage of bills related to financial systems.

'The impact of the slowing domestic demand has spread into the areas of production and income, making the economy further stalled,' Matsushita told a press conference. Citing growing net exports and the government's planned stimulus measures including a special income tax cut worth 2 trillion yen ( $15.5 billion ) , Matsushita said, however, 'The risk is small that the overall economy will get cumulatively worse further on.'

The central bank's priority remains bringing the economy back to a recovery path, he said, referring to a decision made on Friday by its policy- making panel, the Policy Board. The panel concluded that the central bank will maintain the current easy- money policy for the time being with the official discount rate at a historic low 0.5% per annum.

Foley, speaking at the Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan, said those who assume nothing need be done so long as the US economy remains strong are 'dead wrong.' He also urged the Japanese government to take further measures to stimulate domestic demand- led growth and called for 'thorough and fundamental' deregulation of the Japanese economy.

'I think regardless of how strong the US economy is - and I believe it continues to be very, very strong - the rapid growth in the US- Japan trade deficit will be, and already is, a growing issue in the United States,' said the former House of Representatives speaker, who assumed the ambassadorship in November.

Japan's merchandise trade surplus with the United States in November, the latest month for which figures are available, swelled 28.2% from a year earlier, marking an increase for the 14th straight month, according to the Finance Ministry.

Foley slammed what he called a common 'misconception' in Japan 'that as long as the American economy remains strong and unless and until the American economy begins to falter, the issue of our trade deficit will not be very important in the United States.'

'I can't put it more bluntly than to say that is dead wrong - dead wrong,' he said, citing growing concern in the US Congress about the rapid rise of the deficit.

Foley acknowledged that much of the cause of the problem is structural so 'there is no sort of 'magic bullet' by which you can reverse these trade flows.' But he said it is nevertheless important that Japan continue opening its market wider to US and other foreign imports through the removal of 'artificial barriers.'

'Success in achieving market opening agreements is a very weighty and effective argument against political resentment and reaction,' he said. Foley said the US is urging Japan to proceed with full- fledged deregulation 'because we see Japanese regulations as forestalling access to its market by foreign firms.'

'When a potential trade is barred by unnecessary regulations or defeated by uncompetitive practices, it is not only the trader who suffers - the consumers, the market and ultimately the entire international trading system also pay the consequences,' he said.

He said the US would welcome the repeal of Japan's law on large retail stores, for example, but it is worried that local officials might try to impose regulatory restrictions which would effectively maintain restrictions on retail floor space and store location.

'We hope that will not be the case - that deregulation at the national level would be an invitation for re- regulation at the local level,' he said.

On the financial crisis which has hit Asia in recent months, Foley said the most effective contribution Japan could make to an Asian recovery 'is the achievement of a vigorous economic recovery in Japan based on domestic- led growth.'

While welcoming Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto's decision last month to implement a 2 trillion yen cut in income taxes, along with other tax and budgetary measures, he said the US hopes Japan will take further steps 'sufficient to bring about a vigorous economic recovery.'

'We hope that there will be consideration given perhaps in the future to any other steps that may be deemed necessary to adequately move the Japanese economy forward,' he said.

1 ) Which commodities, that are actively traded worldwide, are equated in US $'s per unit of trade?

2 ) Which one of these commodities is used daily, in one form or another, by at least 80% of the world's population?

3 ) Might that commodity arguably be the true medium of exchange and inflationary indicator?

http://biztimes.asia1.com/2/nfrnt04.html
Jitters in HK as Capital Asia unit goes bust

P
UBLIC confidence in Hongkong's financial sector was further dented yesterday when the securities, forex and futures brokerages of listed Capital Asia Group were asked by the securities regulators to stop trading after its finance arm went bust.

The trading suspension led to a run on the outlets of Capital Asia trading units in Hongkong.

This prompted the chief executive of the Hongkong Monetary Authority to urge the public to stay calm.

The latest bout of edginess came barely a week after the collapse of the territory's largest independent investment bank, the Peregrine Group.

Amid talk that the stockbroking unit CA Pacific Securities Ltd may have difficulty paying its customers, hundreds of investors scrambled into the nine outlets of CA Pacific to close their accounts and retrieve their scrip and money.

The company immediately set up a hotline to calm its customers.

The Stock Exchange of Hongkong, Securities & Futures Commission and Hongkong Futures Exchange later said the CA Pacific group had been asked to stop its securities, forex and futures trading, and their activities were restricted to the squaring of outstanding positions.

An SFC spokesman told BT the financial difficulties of the group arose from CA Pacific Finance, a finance company which operates under the Money Lending Act and not regulated by the SFC or the Hongkong Monetary Authority.

The finance arm, which had been financing margin trades for the three trading arms of Capital Asia, encountered financial difficulties due to an over- concentration of three loans, one of which is a very large non- securities related loan.

The spokesman said SFC moved in to suspend trading by the three units to protect the interests of broking clients. He said the exchange has also been told a petition had been filed to wind up the finance arm and an application to appoint a provisional liquidator will be made soon.

The SEHK and the SFC said they were monitoring the financial position and the headquarters and branch operations of CA Pacific Securities to ensure all measures are taken to protect clients.

The HKFE said in another statement: "The Exchange took these measures in view of the uncertainty of CA Pacific's financial situation."

HKFE said it had instructed CA Pacific Futures to liquidate all its gross long and short positions by 4pm yesterday.

Brokers say investors were worried about another Peregrine- type crisis looming when they heard about the share trading suspension at the parent company, Capital Asia.

A few days before Peregrine went into liquidation, the SFC had stopped the trading activities of 10 units belonging to the Peregrine Group. Hit by its huge exposure to the Indonesian rupiah, Peregrine eventually went into liquidation early last week with debts of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Joseph Yam, chief executive of HKMA, moved to calm the public, saying the banking sector was not overexposed to the securities industry and the brokers had been conservative in their margin exposure to customers. He said the public should not worry about the status of the banks despite mounting concerns about widespread defaults by broking customers and collapse of broking houses.

The SFC said recently it planned to recommend legislation this year to the government to help regulate margin financing by money lenders, which have become very active in securities financing, especially for individual investors.

Beside the collapse of Peregrine, the Hongkong market had also been badly hit by widespread rumours about the cashflows of numerous listed companies. Analysts also expect the number of bankruptcies to rise, with at least 10 listed companies expected to be in financial troubles because of the financial turmoil.

Last week, property groups such as Sino Land and Lai Sun were victims of such rumours.

Elsewhere, Hongkong has also been hit by a series of bad news. Cathay Pacific yesterday announced it was laying off 760 staff as part of a move to trim costs and improve competitiveness.

Last week, several broking houses, including Schroder, BZW and SocGen Crosby, also cut back on their staff to save costs.

http://biztimes.asia1.com/2/nfrnt04.html
PUBLIC confidence in Hongkong's financial sector was further dented yesterday when the securities, forex and futures brokerages of listed Capital Asia Group were asked by the securities regulators to stop trading after its finance arm went bust.

The trading suspension led to a run on the outlets of Capital Asia trading units in Hongkong.

This prompted the chief executive of the Hongkong Monetary Authority to urge the public to stay calm.

The latest bout of edginess came barely a week after the collapse of the territory's largest independent investment bank, the Peregrine Group.

Amid talk that the stockbroking unit CA Pacific Securities Ltd may have difficulty paying its customers, hundreds of investors scrambled into the nine outlets of CA Pacific to close their accounts and retrieve their scrip and money.

The company immediately set up a hotline to calm its customers.

The Stock Exchange of Hongkong, Securities & Futures Commission and Hongkong Futures Exchange later said the CA Pacific group had been asked to stop its securities, forex and futures trading, and their activities were restricted to the squaring of outstanding positions.

An SFC spokesman told BT the financial difficulties of the group arose from CA Pacific Finance, a finance company which operates under the Money Lending Act and not regulated by the SFC or the Hongkong Monetary Authority.

The finance arm, which had been financing margin trades for the three trading arms of Capital Asia, encountered financial difficulties due to an over- concentration of three loans, one of which is a very large non- securities related loan.

The spokesman said SFC moved in to suspend trading by the three units to protect the interests of broking clients. He said the exchange has also been told a petition had been filed to wind up the finance arm and an application to appoint a provisional liquidator will be made soon.

The SEHK and the SFC said they were monitoring the financial position and the headquarters and branch operations of CA Pacific Securities to ensure all measures are taken to protect clients.

The HKFE said in another statement: "The Exchange took these measures in view of the uncertainty of CA Pacific's financial situation."

HKFE said it had instructed CA Pacific Futures to liquidate all its gross long and short positions by 4pm yesterday.

Brokers say investors were worried about another Peregrine- type crisis looming when they heard about the share trading suspension at the parent company, Capital Asia.

A few days before Peregrine went into liquidation, the SFC had stopped the trading activities of 10 units belonging to the Peregrine Group. Hit by its huge exposure to the Indonesian rupiah, Peregrine eventually went into liquidation early last week with debts of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Joseph Yam, chief executive of HKMA, moved to calm the public, saying the banking sector was not overexposed to the securities industry and the brokers had been conservative in their margin exposure to customers. He said the public should not worry about the status of the banks despite mounting concerns about widespread defaults by broking customers and collapse of broking houses.

The SFC said recently it planned to recommend legislation this year to the government to help regulate margin financing by money lenders, which have become very active in securities financing, especially for individual investors.

Beside the collapse of Peregrine, the Hongkong market had also been badly hit by widespread rumours about the cashflows of numerous listed companies. Analysts also expect the number of bankruptcies to rise, with at least 10 listed companies expected to be in financial troubles because of the financial turmoil.

Last week, property groups such as Sino Land and Lai Sun were victims of such rumours.

Elsewhere, Hongkong has also been hit by a series of bad news. Cathay Pacific yesterday announced it was laying off 760 staff as part of a move to trim costs and improve competitiveness.

Last week, several broking houses, including Schroder, BZW and SocGen Crosby, also cut back on their staff to save costs.

Kitco hard to get into?
What's gold doing.
The dow bull in one corner,
And the AU bear in the other.

http://www.inet.co.th/cyberclub/barton/
Worth a look at his dow prediction?
And his other charts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Avid chatter:
it aint over till it's over - - - - Jitters in HK as Capital Asia unit goes bust.

"the lenders are the only ones who stand to gain from the IMF bailout. they are bargaining with a drowning man." Kim Yong Geun, director, south korean ministry of trade - - now, that dont sound too stable, does it

all this asia stuff is great for US fund business .....all the brokers are runnin around sayin "see you are secure in your US funds compared to anywhere else maybe they haven't risen any for the past 5 months but at least they are still worth what you paid for em....imagine having bought a HK or Korean fund"

( ....and after that pep talk pa takes out his checkbook and ma hands pa his rusted pen ....pa proceeds to give the broker instructions to transfer the funds from another maturing T- bill to some new high flying techie fund ...the name of which pa can hardly pronounce )

pa kinda misses those 30 year maturing treasuries which he purchased when he was a young man back in the late 60's when times were "different"

....now instead of stuffing the mattress with dollar bills like his dad used to do he stuffs it with fund certificates and buys strip bonds for his grandchildren

guys like goldman sachs must be buyin up paper by the truckload overthere

ma offers the fast talkin mutual fund salesman a cup of tea which he politely declines as he is runnin late for his next handholding appointment....

The MF salesman asks to use the phone to call into his office to check on globex which is pushin up to it;s highs.....he grins widely and hangs up the phone..... confident that ma & pa's money ( and more importantly his own ) is "safe"

In the car on his way to his next appointment the MF salesman muses to hisself how much his life has change since giving up his 20 year job at the local K mart as a shelf restocker to become an MF salesman last year

Finally he has a REAL career!

Definition: "Trailer" - ( 1 ) ongoing fee of up to 1% of assets paid to merry MF sales types to keep Ma & Pa Kettle from redeeming their units and cashing out. ( 2 ) where Ma & Pa will reside after Bank pulls their home equity line of credit they used to load up on mutual funds and didn't sell because of ( 1 ) .

Kitco for 45 minutes and then had to wait about ten minutes to get to post.
@ All but especially tolerant 1. I don't know if this has already been
mentioned but last nights News Hour with JIm Lehrer had a segment re IMF. There were 4 contributors; Robert Hormats ( Goldman Sachs- pro IMF, surprise, surprise ! ) , Mary Bush, ( former IMF Board Member ) , and
two anti IMF speakers, Jeffrey Sachs ( Harvard Uni. ) , and Larry Kudlow ( Chief economist with American Skandia Insurance ) .
Loved Kudlow's sum- up quote re IMf; "The role of markets has to be expanded, the role of the IMF needs to be constricted"..
Sorry if this has been posted already and for being long winded, but if I leave, I may not be able to get back in.

Went from 70.xx range to 68.xx range within minutes. Any reasons?

18 OF THE DINES LETTER'S PAST PREDICTIONS - Right- On- The- Money!!

The Dines Letter was the world's only investment advisory to have predicted the Asian currency crash in advance. Some of these past 18 predictions are already coming true.

During the last two years the internationally recognized market analyst, James Dines, has made some incredibly audacious predictions... and they are turning out as he foresaw them. Here is a review of his fast- forward & quite accurate view of the current currency chaos sweeping ALL ASIA.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

SOROS KNOWS, BUT WONT TELL... About Gold & the Dollar

That Soros won't reveal more about his position on the fate of fiat currencies ( and thus his opinion on gold ) is significant. Something is undoubtedly up his sleeve as we have witnessed in his recent positioning in the silver market ( Apex ) as silver is due to skyrocket ( see Ted Butler's recent article ) . More than any other player in the market today, Soros's every move should be monitored. Given Soros's measurable success in currency markets, and given his alliance with the world's greatest and oldest market makers ( the Rothschilds ) , Soros is undoubtedly beginning to play part of his hand. These two players will undoubtedly be key market makers in resolving the war between fiat currencies ( the U.S. $ ) and GOLD.

To read the ALCHEMY OF FINANCIAL CHECKMATE - EPILOGUE report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

SOROS KNOWS, BUT WONT TELL... About Gold & the Dollar

That Soros won't reveal more about his position on the fate of fiat currencies ( and thus his opinion on gold ) is significant. Something is undoubtedly up his sleeve as we have witnessed in his recent positioning in the silver market ( Apex ) as silver is due to skyrocket ( see Ted Butler's recent article ) . More than any other player in the market today, Soros's every move should be monitored. Given Soros's measurable success in currency markets, and given his alliance with the world's greatest and oldest market makers ( the Rothschilds ) , Soros is undoubtedly beginning to play part of his hand. These two players will undoubtedly be key market makers in resolving the war between fiat currencies ( the U.S. $ ) and GOLD.

To read the ALCHEMY OF FINANCIAL CHECKMATE - EPILOGUE report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Asia In Crisis FT Special Report

Full recovery will not take place unless four things happen at once:
1. Japan must reflate and become a locomotive once again
2. Debtor countries must move convincingly on reform
3. Some debt must be refinanced to remove short- term liquidity pressures and allow a resumption of private capital inflows
4. China must show that it can reflate its economy without resorting to damaging devaluation, so that it too can provide something of a locomotive role

The prospect of all these conditions coming together looks remote. The danger of the crisis spreading and deepening remains significant. The one lifeline for most Asian countries now is exports, and the one market big enough to absorb them is the US.

So the outlook for the region is symbolized by the three men pictured above: Chinas economic policymaker Zhu Rongi; the US Treasury secretary Robert Rubin; and Japans prime minister, Ryutaro Hashimoto. Individually, each can boast only limited influence on the way the crisis develops. But the economic policies their governments pursue will, collectively, decide whether the Asian crisis is as dominant an influence in 1998 as in the closing months of 1997."

This is the Occidental View, the appearance of things existent as seen in the light of the setting sun. Might one reasonably suggest that the Oriental View, things seen as illuminated by the rising eastern sun, may be somewhat different?

Frustrated: ABX down 1.80 . The big Gold stocks are all down so can't be good for the index. It's amazing that The Gold price is still under attack
with all the Asian problems etc.

Almost a $1.00 diff between gold prices in the frames ( same time, reloaded several times to be sure... ) Weird.

FWIW ..Share worth is 17,the cap is on 17.5.Time to short
anytime at 17.5.Munk is a smart guy.What a smoke screen
buying back 10 % .He has a greater belief in real estate of
Hungary than in gold.He might know more: ) Happy trading.

Wonder if it has something to do with the inability of the spot price of gold to remain above the $290 level. Spot gold was up above $292 at 9am but fell back to the $289 level within the next 15 minutes.

I'm looking for the $290 to hold!

There used to be Americans who would trust no bank. Sensible Americans have never kept dollar bills in the mattress, because they burn and mice eat them. But, in 1929 the ones who did not trust a bank and had their gold and silver coins at the house had money.
The real mischief in this world is done by government bond salesmen who get people's gold for paper and a promise of more paper.

Last evening I wrote:

'JACQUES NASSAR is a RACIST - - -

In an effort to pander to the mostly Black audience and to give a false sense that he is understanding of the black condition, Nassar said:

"... What's the favorite color in Germany ? ... [referring to automobile colors] ... Exactly the opposite - - bright colors. Now, someone would say that Germans are looking for something bright in their life - but- [laughter] I wouldn't say that - I wouldn't say that - but - there's another example of a national characteristic that you jump to immediately..."

Let's juxtapose some words for the fun: Germany= Liberia - - Germans= blacks.

Here's how it reads Ford Motor Company:

What's the favorite color in Liberia ? ... [referring to automobile colors] ... Exactly the oppostite - - bright colors.
Now, someone would say that blacks are looking for something bright in their life - but- [laughter] I wouldn't say that - I wouldn't say that - but - there's another example of a national characteristic that you jump to immediately...


I wonder if the verbal legerdemain will be picked up on in the German community ??? - - - hmmmmmmmm- - - - - - - '
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Here's the actual transcript: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan- june98/rainbow_1- 19.html

The answers to two questions I posted yesterday would help us all understand the market. I'm posting them again in the hopes someone whill help us all out.

1. Which mining companies entered into metal loan agreements involving CB or other holders of bullion ? And for how many tons each ? Do the accunting rules and reporting regulations even require these metal loans be shown and if so as an obligation in metal or in an equivalent of $ ?

2. If a mine has a production capacity of X for a given month but it has an obligation to deliver X of metal to a metal loan agreement and X of metal to a futures contract for the same month, which of the agreements has precedence ?

The concerted, again & again attempts we see to drive down the XAU shows the determination of FedRes/FedGov to cut- off from the investor's mind any thought that gold is a refuge. period. They must have everyone beleving in paper promises. If this means the utter destruction of the gold mining industry, so be it. They could care less.

Proof of this is the fact that ANY market sector, sufficiently driven down, is quietly bought up so that it can then be run- up again. The logic has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of a market sector, only that "there be blood in the streets", i.e. cheap stock.

Now, we know that the gold sector has been down savagely - and a peek at the long term charts indicates it's low enough for the run- up again. Yet it does not happen. Therefore there is widespread & concerted intervention to *permanently* suppress the gold mining stock sector. QED.

FedRes/FedGov will probably take over the defaulting/bankrupting mingin industries - what a cheap way to get control. The other part of this equation is wresting away from 5,000 years of human memory the notion that gold = money.

After all, the ultimate goal FedRes/FedGov is universal electronic funds. Universal contol over ALL financial activities.

And the accompanying mark, of course.

Reported in morning update on

http://www.usagold.com

It is rumored that a consortium of gold buyers intends to take physical delivery @ March contract. First notice is Jan 30th when they are required to declare their intentions.

This fits very well with the end of Ramadan ( Moslem holy month ) and interestingly, with the gold trend forecast of Rebecca Nolan, which shows a bottom @ Jan 28- 29, followed by a runup into March.

The men who are keepers of the Islamic faith are too honest to be swindled by the government bond con. They are going to have something tangible in return for their oil. The gold market cannot be shut down for long, if at all, because it is only by trade that those dependant on mid- east oil get any. They can't barter VCR's and mercedes benz with the Arabs.

Folks, to be honest I think that Gold is doing exceptionally good today. After the last week run- up, I was expecting a significant pressure to kick it down ( so more that we had a long weekend and $US coming down ) . The fact that it holds pretty much its price form the last week closing is encouraging to me. Dont you expect a straight line up ( be it a spot price or stox )

TRIZECHAn sells ABX FYI.

All: Intermediate term - months - we are technically still in gold bullion/gold stock bear. Since we are reaching producer prices we know that gold prices cannot go lower without significantly cutting production, and this may affect gold loans that cannot be repaid if the producer goes under. Also with 8000 tonnes outstanding gold loans, it will be hard to push gold down, and keep it down. However, as we have painfully learned, there is nothing special about $280, or $250 - - gold will go to whatever price it wants.

I think we must still expect downturns whenever a place turns up for paper money to go - - such as the apparent new interest in SEAsia. Also, as we learned directly from Mike Sheller yesterday, Wayne Angell actually said that gold suppression is a convienient way to discourage the "flight to safety" if the Fed sees a problem witht the markets, the dollar, or inflation. Also we heard yesterday that he said that the gold market is much thinner than the oil market, so problems with rising oil prices can be countered by pushing gold down.

Therefore, we can't expect a gold rally until the Fed is no longer interested in pushing it down - - for whatever reason. Sure is hard to invest in a political "football" isn't it?

But on the other hand - - when gold finally does rally - - better not stand in the way!

I stated in last post March contract; may be the Feb contract for gold. Any traders out there who can substantiate this rumor?

FWIW JTF.....I think that you are "right on the money" with your post.

Miro, look at two spikes in POG ( Friday and today ) .
Interesting. Fed, Fed, and Fed! These guys can not allow
our gold to take off like missile. They will probably
let it go, a little bit, but very slow. At this time
they gonna kill any rally. Not a time yet. U.S. needs
money, money, money.... ( remember ABBA? )

How do we know the metal loan obligations are included in the 8000 tons ?

JTF: A Freudian slip? Are you thinking about your golf game, or is the POG ( price of GOLF ) about to go down?

Just kidding, of course.

Are you saying they are too honest?!?

Come on, man, get real...

Right now .. it's at 7777 ...sure does stay around that ...number...

"Also we heard yesterday that he said that the gold market is much
thinner than the oil market, so problems with rising oil prices can be
countered by pushing gold down."

I think an historical look at gold will reveal the price range expected by the Arabs for their oil, a price range the Fed/BIS was managing to for quite a while until this metal loan bright idea upset the apple cart.

Dines and Jerome Smith would have been proven correct in a free market.

The next futures contract for gold is February ...GCG8

It is a well known fact that you cannot swindle an honest man with a con.
Besides, usury is not admired in Islam so "interest" of paper on paper is irreligious. It used to be so in Christian nations.

Return on investment by dividend is the only honest transaction for sharing in enterprise, which is what the corporation was originally formed for. The modern socialist corporations that live on loans, pay the managers more than the owners ( shareholders ) , and never pay a dividend are dishonest. The greenback and the tax law that came with the greenback made them so.

DROOY and many of the SA stocks continue to perform well under this pressure. So does SWC, 19 9/16 - 1/16, considering the whack that PA has taken from its recent runup. The large NA stocks are suffering the most.

Spud Master, I hope I have completely misunderstood you. But you made a remark about "the corresponding mark" in your last post and I think you were refering to the mark of the beast.

If not, then I'm sorry I brought it up.

If so, then I read a good article the other day about this subject that might change the way you look at it:
http://www.mindspring.com/~dennisw/articles/beast.htm

The Preacher

The reason you cannot swindle an honest man with a con is that an honest man does not expect to get or demand to get something for nothing. A robber demands something for nothing. A thief takes something for nothing. And a swindler or con is a thief who talks you into parting with something for nothing instead just taking it in your absence. He talks you into it by convincing you that you will get something for nothing out of his proposition. An honest man will refuse a proposition in which he will get something for nothing and thus can never be swindled.

For dave in Co

Glad Karlita found her niche. But I miss her in a

funny way - nice legs hey.

To all

This is kind of like going to a really nice pub. I

can have a vodka now and then, have interesting

conversations, get in arguments, reminisce ( ?? ) - its

great - But we need MORE GIRLS.

Gold is Ok - its moving up in the ratio with silver.

The fibonacci bottom at 47 is in place - Any guys

playing smartypants shortgold/longsilver or plats

are gonna get toasted. They better start UNwinding.

The ratio could go to 65 faster than they realize.

Also we should talk about movies more - I like

movies a lot - especially old ones.

Anybody heard from Ziva the magnificent?? There

seems to be a life outside Kitco at least in a few

cases.

A horrible thought - earlier I posted that

harmony was undervalued 48 times versus Barrick

and should go to 100$ - but hold it - I can still be

right and ABX goto $0.35 instead. Think about it.

Did you see the questions about mining company reporting which I posted in the last hour ?

for de Preacher Man

You got a date with me in court old buddy. The charge

against you is excessive loonytuneism - Thats all I need -

Revelations.

Had a new kind of Gold Bashing article yesterday in our San Jose Mercury News. This one was a retrospect of how Gold mining operations ruined California, and the local area, and how we are just now recovering from those bad old days. It was a "front page" article, photo illustrated and all....

Please give me one good reason not to buy 10,000 shares of AVINO.

Just one.

Hey Mozel, I know plenty of honest people including myself who
have been swindled by outfits such as Auric United, S& Ls,
fly by night coin dealers, phone scam artists, etc. People
who were expecting a fair price for merchandise in a ligitamate
business transaction were swindled, ripped- off, robbed, whatever
you wish to call it. Don't tell me that everyone who gets
swindled deserves it; that's BS pure and simple. Even
greedy people don't deserve to be robbed.

Got my first class III weapon over the weekend. Watch out
demons when those three days come; better not try to take
my gold and guns and MREs.

Hmmmm. As it relates to Al Gore and his entire family.

Nothing sucks like a big ORANGE!

Famous battle cry from Kentucky!

Talk to me, sir.

know them and use them to your advantage.

Unfortunately we think of currencies as the foundation of the system. They are not. It is the tangibles which are the base. Real things - Oil ( products ) , Food, Fertilizer & Machinery ( Water ??? ) . Ultimately one looks to exchange paper for a real, physical THING; car, home, food, energy, etc. ( "Nice salad dear", "Yes, I picked up a few hundreds and put them in the shedder." )

India, a country with meager wealth, imported 700 Tonnes of gold to saticfy investment demand in 1997 ( fully 1/3rd 1997 world- wide production ) . Why? Because they found out the hard way that paper is untrustworthy. So they are, more and more, putting their SAVINGS into gold and silver. If their paper turns on them again ( and it probably will ) they will have saved their wealth through this means. Their combined purchasing power ( 1 Bln people X income to be saved = 700 Tonnes in 1997 ) was able to pry this amount of physical metal from the world markets at the present prices.

Now consider the experience of Hong Kong, Indonesia, Korea, Malaysia and Thailand. Consider their wealth ( and population ) in relationship to India's. They have had a similar experience to India now in terms of currency failure. Do you for a minute think that this is lost on them??? What will their future plans include when ( if ) they are straightened out? Use gold and silver as a vehicle for SAVINGS ( not investment ) . What more demand will this raise for gold? Let's say this is similar to India's demand at 700 tonnes.

India 700 tonnes
Asia 700 tonnes = 1400 tonnes, 2/3rds annual world- wide production.

What if others learn this lesson IN ADVANCE of devaluations and chaos??? China? Russia? Arabia?

Do you see where this is going? We talk about confidence in currencies as a continuing state of mind ( albeit in danger here in the USA ) when in country after country it is being destroyed. These 'little' countries will see what India has been doing and they will learn the lesson. The combined purchasing power is small enough to demonstrate that physical gold supply can EASILY be exhausted when a few seemingly economicly insignificant countries change their "savings perspective".

Meanwhile the Arabians and Persians have been applying these lessons over the past 10 years to accumulate a nice little hedge against the day when there is not enough gold or silver to meet the demand at the current price range. At least that is what seems to be happening. But does it matter at all? Even without the possibility that they have done this there are enough 'little' countries to vacuum up annual gold and silver world- wide production and reclaimation.

As the Asian drama unfolds we may see such a shift to a 'tangible' asset based savings perspective ( gold and silver ) which will indeed send their respective prices much higher. Again this has to do with many 'dollars' chasing few 'goods' ( combined new mined metal and scrap recovery ) . We have printed a MESS of credit dollars. The earth is FULL of credit US$. All the trade with the US is done in credit US$. All the US trade deficits are in credit US$. TRILLIONS OF CREDIT US$$$ ( almost ) all happily invested in US$ denominated debt ( bonds ) !!!

US$180 Billion this year in trade deficits.

Cumulative US credit debt = US$10 Trillion.

2100 tonnes gold supply @ US$300/oz = US$20 Billion.

What if some said, "I like US$ & US Bonds but I want a little hedge in physical gold and silver just in case of trouble." A miniscule movement of 0.3% of that US$10 trillion into bullion would completely wipe out the yearly supply of gold and silver at current prices. Maybe that is why George Soros is quietly moving into mining and metals at this time, eh?

This perspective is in the 3 - 5 year range, not relavent to the minutia of daily flux. As always, IMHO. I find myself standing with the humble ones in this perspective. Hope we inherit the earth!!! 8- 0

Nope - that's what I intended. I am not at all confused or deceived about the end result of a world- wide electronic funds system. It is all too obvious that one will not be able to do any kind of commerce save for being a member of the electronic funds system, of which the current paper based scheme is it's progenitor.

That is why we must fight any and all attempts to enslave mankind with "wonderful" electronic funds tranfer. It is monsterous beyond comprehension.

Never said an honest man could not have his goods taken by force, that is to say, be robbed.
Never said an honest man could not be trespassed on by a fraudulent man like when someone takes a deposit and runs away or doesn't deliver what was paid for.
And maybe I didn't make it clear that accepting a risk is putting something into the proposition. "He who accepts the risk is justly due the gain and loss".
But a swindle or con is where the proposition is you will get something without any risk. A typical example is the government bond salesman's pitch. At least, that was my meaning.

Karlito left for very good reasons. He had perhaps more to contribute here by way of a credentialed economics persepctive, than anyone on the forum. Yet was mercilessly assualted in the most heinous, vicous, and unprovoked way by the likes of Spud, Tolerant, DaveinCO, et al.

He deserved better treatment than he got. He decided to stop casting his pearls before swine and who can blame him? Some folks welcome all views, others can tolerate only their own monolithic dogma before throwing unprovoked insults at those who don't agree.

Before the wails of protest begin about how Karlito "started it", I followed his posts closely, and most certainly he tried to keep the discussions civil, and on interesting topics without personal insults. He was not allowed to do so by the extremist morons who haunt this forum, and can't stand a genuine two sided debate on the issues being discussed.

The Nazi remarks were the final straw that initiated his departure in disgust. A decision that should be respected as appropriate, considering the totally out of line type of discourse he was being subjected to.

The forum is the loser in this, not Karlito. He was making an excellent and needed counterpoint contribution. For those here with more neurons than a pea, and for those who appreciate expertise and knowledge from someone who actually KNOWS something about the subject matter at hand ( ie fiat currency, Govt monetary policy ) it's very unfortunate for the forum that he's gone.

However, he was a winner among losers, an intellect among the uneducated, an analytical thinker among small minded, emotion driven, pathogens. I think he will miss the place very little now that he fully understands the mindset and mentality of many of the folks who spew their venomous rhetoric here ceaselessly, and pointlessly.

You have 25K that you would like to invest in a gold mining co. Which
co would you buy into? I would appreciate some feedback. I don't consider anybody's opinion as "stock promotion", as I am the one doing the asking. THANKS
PS- - - Any co other than TVX ( I already have a large chunk of their shares )

I concur 100% with your analysis of the psuedo strength of paper currency...it is very difficult for most Americans to conceive that their infallible, almighty green back will be undermined in the same manner as the baht. They will have to learn the bloody truth through experience. The dollar will soon not be the only egg in the basket...and the newly joined eggs might very well crack it. As far as you and I, we could today fly to Bangkok and purchase a nice Mercedes or BMW for twenty ( 20 ) phillies. Virtually nobody understands this phenomenon except we Goldbugs and S.E. Asians. Good post, sir.

Your defense, the satirical, fall upon men and women of worth who have no ears.

For LGB = I KNOW - I miss her more than I can ever say.

What an intellect - What a PRO found knowledge of economics -

what LEGS . That tolerant that spud and that davein co - what

dogs they were. No way to treat a lady - - -

And by the way - little grasshopper - whats a "vicous"

anyway.

Re: Date: Tue Jan 20 1998 00:55 bernatz du ventadorm ( patience ) ID#212132: As in four weeks and within $5 of $277.25
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If you are so sure of yourself then how would you position yourself using Gold Calls. Which Month and which strike price??

Control of purchasing power ( "money supply" ) is power. When it is centralized in a Central Bank like the Fed, it is enormous power, the political power of the purse. If it becomesa controlled from a Central Bank's computer by communication with a credit card, it will enable control of more than the supply of money. Gold and silver coin in your pocket distributes power. It is the only way for men who expect to live free to keep their freedom and their honesty and integrity.

I'm glad the little people of India are getting their hands on something for their something. The US still has a mint. Without minted gold and silver with a trustworthy mint mark, the use of gold and silver is limited to large transactions and the little people get swindled by having to use paper. JIN should make an honest mint marked coin gold for small purchasers since the governments in Asia aren't minting

But, it looks like something big involving big money is going on.

Re: Date: Tue Jan 20 1998 00:55 bernatz du ventadorm ( patience ) ID#212132: As in four weeks and within $5 of $277.25
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If you are so sure of yourself then how would you position yourself using Gold Calls. Which Month and which strike price??

Excuse me, BUT are we trying to close above 290 today.

$290.75 at 14:00.

The battle rages.

General: The value of honesty does not exist without the virtue of great care and the exercise of due diligence in the conduct of one's affairs. If one is expecting 20% per annum, in perpetuity, without regard to risk, it may be assumed that we are not discussing an honest man. At least not one who is being honest with himself. Caveat emptor, is never out of style.

Karlito, like the rest of us, was not infallible...and he was not beyond reproach. If he had only put on his "humble inquirer" overcoat and if we had restrained our opposition...we would have all benefitted. I learned to appreciate his thinking....but I'll listen to anybody.

Nice to see shorts covering on the close 2 trading days in aq row,for the last several weeks it was just the reverse,hm whats up?GOLD

quite a logical argument. My question for you, and maybe this has already been addresseed previously; how do you KNOW that Soros has been investing in metals ? I know there has been a lot of speculation about this and my own suspicion is that you are probably correct, but I am curious as to whether you have any source for this . TIA.

LGB:

Thank you for your defence of K. especially from some of us unaware of his departure. I, for one, while not pretending to have followed every detail of his contentious points ( and more especially the reaction to them here ) remember being impressed by his seeming ability to shrug off the most vitriolic attacks on his IQ, judgement and yes, even masculinity ( as if that had anything to do with what we discuss here ) and come back with reasoned and to- the- point comments and analysis on real topics. Perhaps he is only taking a break or a vacation and really intends to return...as did you yourself on a well- remembered occasion. At least we can hope so.

Two days in a row I slept thru the opening ( COMEX ) not tommorow,even if it is 3.20 am in HI. Get your rest!

Two days in a row I slept thru the opening ( COMEX ) not tommorow,even if it is 3.20 am in HI. Get your rest!

Please point out the so- called vicious attacks I unleashed on Karlito. Your remarks are completely without basis. My only comments about Karlito concerned his complete lack of originality and absence of any sense of humor.

And I can't recall any indication of his gender in his writings. If you can point out that he is a man, I will apologize for my conjecture that he is now the president of the Bardstown Ladies' Investment Club. I admit he has a great memory; anyone who can memorize entire scripts from CNBC and Money Talk has my sincere admiration.

A post like yours containing the following words and phrases have no place here:

mercilessly assaulted
assaulted in a henious, vicious, unprovoked way
swine
monolithic dogma ( although this one probably fits me )
unprovoked insults
extremist morons haunting this forum
Nazi remarks
those who have more neurons than a pea
a winner among losers
small minded, emotion- driven pathogens
spew their venomous rhetoric ceaselessly and poinlessly

You accused me of the above re: Karlito. I expect to see the proof or you should leave this forum voluntarily or otherwise.

Goodbye LGB

BTW, how's that Pegasus stock doing?

I think many short players are getting jumpy ( or is it chumpy ) 288 area turning into major support!pressure is on short sellers.

In my just previous post I said..."I will listen to anybody." Wrong!!! I will not listen to Al,jr.Envirowhore Bore Gore for one damn minute even if he's talkin' pussy or football. Please America do not give him the Presidency! Please, please, please! ( James Brown before insanity )

Karlito simply isn't.

I think a PETA member wandering into a meeting of the NRA, listening
to the discourse for a spell and then piping up with the equivalent
of "Ok, I'm game" should reasonably expect the response. As in the
reverse situation.

This forum holds up its end of the argument quite deftly. The
other end is to be made by others elsewheres, and is ubiquitously.
There's nothing wrong with trotting an argument into where it's
not welcome, not willing to be heard. But finding no advance, it
doesn't thrive and can only be beat into retreat. As in extinct.







The
other end is responsible for its view

I badly want to read the following document, but can't
get through...would someone try and see if it is just me, or if it is acutally not accessible.

The article is:

Zhu Rongji's May 23 Visit to Australia: Why the Secrecy?

URL given without http:// ( but didn't work when I added it either )
www- uvi.eunet.fr

You can perhaps guess why I want to see this paper!?!? ( :- ) )

SilverBaron: Must have been a freudian slip! I'm not a great golf player, but I have had more success playing golf than I have had betting on a gold bull market! I've been burned so many times in the last 1 1/2 years thinking gold would go up - - I can't count them anymore. It wasn't till I got addicted to Kitco that I realized that one of the reasons I always guessed wrong was that the game was rigged! Just when gold should go up, it went down! It was uncanny.
As far as I am concerned - - any bullish gold profits are to be made short term, as the trend is still down, even though the up forces are accumulating daily.

No tasty tidbits here ( insider information ) just looking at the ice berg from the water level up ( ie - SIL startup, etc ) . Figure that he has MUCH more involvement under the covers than this. But why be public about it in this way??? He is shrewd in the PR arena. No doubt he plays both sides and well. Apparently a 'control issue' as in 'I want to control this company myself, etc re mining propery purchases'. Inground reserves only attractive now if you expect a huge upward and sustained move. Why? Because there are lot of mines that can swing into action very quickly if the price pops up a few notches. Under developed mine properties ( which SIL seems to be interested in ??? ) would require a major up move with no chance at a fall back.

Am I speculating. Yes. Is he in SIL. Yes. If Mohammud can't go to da mountain, den da mountain must go to Mohammud. I figure he's seeing a fur' peice further than most and positioning to take advantage of it while 'prices are cheap'.

Control of purchasing power ( "money supply" ) is power. When it is centralized in a Central Bank like the Fed, it is enormous power, the political power of the purse. If it becomesa controlled from a Central Bank's computer by communication with a credit card, it will enable control of more than the supply of money. Gold and silver coin in your pocket distributes power. It is the only way for men who expect to live free to keep their freedom and their honesty and integrity.

the server here could not find the address of that URL. looks to me like something is wrong with the suffix.
outa here.

John Disney: I was waiting for you to come back on so I could respond to yesterday's remarks.
I asked you a few questions seeking clarification of what seemed like contradictory statements coming from you. Instead of any clarification, all I see in your answer is name- calling, cleverly worded evasions, and, I guess, tacit acknowledgment that you were indeed making contradictory statements.

I may be too dumb ( or looney ) to go to heaven, as you say, but I'm not too dumb to know when I'm being told two mutually exclusive statements are both true.

But, no matter, SA continues to fall apart at the seems, a process that began in 1976 when PM Vorster first began dismantling the apartheid apparatus. Third- world peoples can neither build nor administer first- world societies.

I wouldn't invest any of my money in SA gold shares which peaked October 21, 1994, six months after the election of an African National Congress parliament.. The overwhelming majority of them didn't even make a new high in February 1996 when gold moved over $400.

With all due respect to John Brimelow and your "California paradise," I'll pass and invest in Canadian mining interests.

The Preacher


PS. - - Today we have more name- calling and excoriation from John Disney, who has yet to produce one shread of evidence for his perspective the past two days.

Lighten up a little. Since when does any poster on this forum have to leave if he can or cannot substantiate his remarks to you? If every statement ever made here had to pass such a litmus test there might be noone left. Consider for a moment how many time THE CRASH ( which one?...does it matter? ) has been forecasted here...and still not happened.

LGB does have a bit of an attitude at times and manages to phrase his remarks to garner maximum attention, but in my book he deserves it when I remember his many ..very worth- while and non- personal comments made here virtually every day. Don't kick him out just for offending you...lots of other posters just might go with him.

Now, dat's nuff to bring ( i'm, or er ) bak, to spew dose economic perl's of genuis to ( uz ) , the unchangeable, the narrow, the unwashed.

KARLITO = CAMDESSUS

By accusing me of things I did not say and doing it in a most vicious ( to use one of his favorite words ) , he has slandered me. In a court of law he would be in big trouble.

Do not lighten up, give em hell kid!

mozel: My impression from reading Frank Veneroso's Canarc Teleconference is that the 8000 tonne quote includes all of the known gold loans outstanding, regardless of source. Others have quoted this 8000tonne number, but probably are quoting FV. Most of these loans as I recall are from Central Banks. If you want more details, all I can do is refer you to the text from his Dec 9 Canarc teleconference, which was posted on SI and Kitco several weeks ago.

Frank Veneroso just had another conference - - have you seen any transcripts of that one? His Gold newsletter costs $8,000/year and his Gold Book Annual is about $300/year.

I have it from refutable sources that cherOkee has signed on with a winter wheat harvest crew...his new boss raves about his performance. Says our man can get more grain into the truck than any fellow he's ever seen. A motivated man...that cherOkee. Grain futures headed down now.

TORONTO, Jan. 15 /CNW- PRN/ - Kinross Gold Corporation ( TSE- K; NYSE- KGC ) announces that during the month of January, Kinross repurchased spot deferred contracts, fixed forward sales contracts and put options representing 155,000 ounces of gold. These transactions generated approximately US$14.4 million of cash ( in addition to the approximately US$22.5 million announced in December ) which will be realized into income over the original delivery schedule of the various contracts. During December and January, Kinross also established some floor protection by purchasing put options for 80,400 ounces of gold at an average strike price of US$283 per ounce for delivery in 1998 at a cost of approximately US$750,000. As a result of the hedging transactions in December and January, Kinross' total gold hedge position currently consists of the recently purchased 1998 put options for 80,400 ounces at an average strike price of US$283 per ounce plus a total of 50,400 ounces of calls sold previously for the years 1998 to 2001 at strike prices ranging from US$383 to US$400 per ounce.

I own Some KGC & think they are very well positioned as a low cost producer.

Dave in CO:

Just to inject that tiny note of reality into the discussion, may I point out that he is not in a court of law?

I coudn't get into the Rongji URL either. Error message: server down, try again later.

I didn't say we were in a court of law. If he walked into a Kitco bar, he would also be in big trouble.

2BR02B - very true - thanks for a view of the forest. Being a software type, I spend too much time looking at the trees

For the great Mr. Perkins.

Thank you.

ECONOMISTS are a dime a dozen. Go to any street corner, and chances are you can snag one within 10 minutes.
Most were taught from the same book and push the same tired economic line.
Kitco never was a paper pushers paradise.

Wisdom.

CBS Market Watch has this comment from a major ( often hostile to gold ) brokerage:

"I think it is time to look to do some bottom- fishing here," said George Constantine, senior market analyst at Merrill Lynch. "It doesn't look like a runaway stampede, but selected indexes could make moderate new highs in the next month or two. Still, we're playing this close to the vest, given the Dow's advance of about 150 percent in the last five years and a 70 percent cumulative gain in the prior five- year period. Those types of returns are just not sustainable.

"I'd look to do some buying in some of the worst- performing stocks in the last year or so, like the metals and mining stocks."

As the old poem has it, "if winter comes, can Spring be far behind?"

Dear PH in LA:

To say that ...."LGB does have a bit of an attitude at times"

is like saying that : "the Titanic took on a little bit of water."

( :- ) Not meant to slander anyone of course ( :- )

TTFN

CBS Market Watch also has gold in positive territory now at 291.70.

I appreciate your effort. At least I now know it is their
server. Maybe I can find a route around it...WANT to READ
that document! Thanks again.

Jan. 20. 1998



LETTER TO THE EDITOR
TORONTO GLOBE & MAIL



RE: TRIZEC HAHN ANNOUNCES IT WILL SELL ENTIRE HOLDING OF BARRICK SHARES TO PUBLIC, Jan 20, 1998



Mr. Peter Munk of Barrick Gold has some gall to blame World Central
Banks for the horror story unfolding in the gold mining industry. In
fact, he is one of the leading contributors to the malaise afflicting
the precious metal. Barrick's shareholders ought to fire him summarily
along with his entire executive board of sycophantic ducks.

Yes, it's true that, owing to forward hedging, he locked in most of
Barrick's production at $410 an ounce. Most observers would consider
that a shrewd tactic. However, it is a Pyrrhic victory at best. In
reality, forward sales of gold by self- serving mining companies like
Barrick contributed to the over- supply of gold in the market. When gold
reached $410 an ounce and the world's largest mining company sold
forward such a huge position in gold, is it any wonder that Central
Banks decided they ought to follow a similar course...especially given
gold's stagnant price over the last decade?

Mr. Munk further feigns concern about the possible social disruptions
that might unfold in a major gold- producing country such as South
Africa. When he dumped Barrick's gold supply upon the market at $410 an
ounce, was that an act of social conscience where South Africa is
concerned? Hell, no...it was Barrick acting in its own selfish
interest, oblivious to the perceptions and ramifications this huge
forward sale would have on the world gold market.

If gold mining companies really wish to convince Central Banks that gold
stands any chance of future appreciation, then they better skip the hot
air and pursue immediate, tangible strategies in addressing the
over- supply problem.

First, they must immediately cease all forward sales of gold. Secondly,
they must announce to the world that all future exploration of gold is
sending tod ay and they will only work the existing mines. Third, they
must consolidate their industry so that it is similar structurally to
other major oligopolistic/monopolistic commodity suppliers ( such as
OPEC ) . Fourth, they must mount a concerted propaganda campaign to
convince Central Banks and major global financial institutions that gold
truly is a financial reserve and not merely another commodity. In other
words, they must shift their focus from supply to demand. It seems
everytime we open a newspaper or turn on the TV today, we see a constant
assault on the value of gold mounted by disciples of the so- called "New
Paradigm." It would make a great deal more sense to forego opening a
single gold mine and use the monies saved to finance pro- gold lobbyists
and media exponents who can reverse the negative psychology that's
developed around the metal.

If the foregoing measures are adopted quickly, then I predict you would
see a short squeeze on gold that might send it back into the
stratosphere. In doing so, tens of thousands of hard- working miners
still might have jobs by the time Spring rolls around.

The most unnerving aspect of the current gold crisis is its potential
spillover effects. Weakness in gold is spilling over onto other metals
such as nickel and copper. In effect, if counter- measures are not
enacted swiftly, we soon might witness numerous mine closures in
virtually every metal industry. Can you just imagine the devastation
this phenomenon would wreak upon the resource- dependent Canadian
economy? Already, various financial analysts are attributing unusual
weakness in the Canadian dollar to currency speculator concerns over
future, pandemic weakness in Canada's resource sector.

IN CONCLUSION, I WOULD ASK MR. MUNK ONE FINAL QUESTION: IF HE IS TRULY
BULLISH ON GOLD AS HE CLAIMS, THEN WHY THE HELL IS HIS COMMERCIAL
PROPERTY DEVELOPER, TRIZEC- HAHN, SELLING ITS ENTIRE HOLDING OF BARRICK
STOCK TO THE PUBLIC? THIS SALE CONTRADICTS HIS EARLIER ASSERTION THAT
BARRICK WOULD BUY BACK ITS OWN STOCK BECAUSE THE COMPANY BELIEVED IT WAS UNDERVALUED. THEN, WHY DOESN'T TRIZEC HAHN SELL ITS ENTIRE BARRICK STAKE TO BARRICK?

Of course, even if Barrick were buying its own stock, it still sends the wrong message to the market. It merely tells the world that Peter Munk believes in Peter Munk. Instead, he should acquire another major gold mining company ( like Battle Mountain,Placer Dome, TVX, Homestake, Royal Oak, or Kinross ) . In doing so, he will put the entire gold market on notice that short sellers best beware because mining consolidation is in the works.

first with a period after the www, then with a hyphen after the www.
Howver, I did an Alta Vista search on Rongji and found the following;

http://web3.asia1.com.sg/timesnet/data/ab/docs/ab1335.html

may be of interest to you.

You are right, change the perception. Watch my smoke kid!!!

Get ready folks, it is time to talk to the machine. God bless Pink Floyd.

Yeh, hah!

To all

Gold looks good - Look at the magnificent triangle

forming in yen- gold. A break above 37500 is what we

want and I think the chance of an upside breakout is

MUCH higher than downside, if you look at the overall

formation which is inverse h& s. Similar story in euro

currencies - fast up move possibilities. And the

ratio with silver - we want a clear break above 51 !!

Of course Ive been wrong a lot before - but who

knows.

to the Preacher Man.

I can think of no other way to deal with you other

than insult you. I am not interested in anything that

you have to say, or what you may think. I feel

relieved that you will buy Canadian golds rather than

RSA golds because I dont think you deserve to make any

money. Buy some echo bay please - morgage your HOUSE.

If you think my statements were contradictory , you

are simply are too thick to understand what I said. So

why not just ignore one another - I dont want to waste

time with you. Please NEVER read my posts. A threshhold

level of intelligence is required sometimes. You dont

qualify.

To LGB

I think you are a great example of something or

other - Im not sure what exactly. But I think you

deserve further study.

PS

You may recall sportsfans - I said a while back that

I would not trust Munk on that share buyback deal.

Seems someone else agrees with me - You like ABX -

You can have it.

This is food for thought,I have bought 2 calls and 1 put , starting with gold at 330. Iam now trading 300 calls and 285 puts, made no money so far but have not lost any. Personally am trading June.

"Anything goes" when it comes to LGB. After all, this isn't rocket science .... grin.

Buy gold! Be free! Control *your* own destiny!

Reject paper "promises". End the "good life" of the conmen/confidence swindlers of the Central Banks who rob the We the People with worthless paper! We have been bribed with undeliverable social promises ( SS, Medicaid, Welfare ) , exchanging our FUTURE for the financial and political ruling classes PRESENT good lives.

End the swindle- reign of the Fed, the IMF and the BIS! We are at WAR! Shall we be the pawns, debt- slaves to made- up paper money? Our children? Their children? Forever?

NEVER!

A newsbite about Richmont Mines, they also unloaded part of a hedge position. Every Canadian portfolio should have some RIC. Downhere we are blinded by bigness. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980120/richmont_m_1.html

For Dave in Co

I apologize to you on LGB's behalf. I feel very bad

about the stupid things that he said to you. I hope you

will recover soon. Please forgive him. Im sure he didn't

mean it.

Well done John cause I sure won't be apologetic for speaking the truth...nor will I further defend my statements with "substantiation", the history of Kitco archives speaks clearly on the subject. The self appointed site censors will not have their way with ALL participants however.

PH, thanks for embracing free speech and diverse plethora of views. It's the only rational position for a patriot who embraces the constitution. ( Assuming you're a U.S. citizen... )

Pray tell sir, upon which exchange of equities may one humble Okie purchase a bit of the Harmony mines?

p.s. I accept your on- behalf apology on behalf of all that should receive the apology.

p.p.s. Carl Perkins is dead...as T#1 announced. My God what is next! Why couldn't God take someone I don't care about? I guess he has no use for them, either.

http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/fiendbea/homepage.htm

I agree with LGB and PH. What makes this forum worth coming back to is the exchange of ideas relatively free from adolescent whining. I did not particularly care for the way Karlito expressed himself, nor agree with many of his opinions, but he presented his case well. Same for LGB. Karlito did nothing to be "thrown off" this forum for and I for one will miss his comments as a counter for some of the emotional gold bug rhetoric. By the way, what is the update for the next "crash" date? For a long time, until just recently in fact, I thought the decline of economic civilization as we know it was going to end in a crash. But it was recently brought to my attention that the reason I have been losing my ass like so many other believers in the metal is the this decline will be gradual because of the way technology can swiftly deliver news to the masses and temper the shock. I think what angers many people on this forum is that LGB does his analysis in real time and not what some expect ( and hope ) will happen at some point in the future.

I don't consider it bearish that Trizac sold the large chunk of ABX. I feel that Munk has been accorded to much credit for his financial acumen.

If you check back on his earlier companies, you will find that his record is pretty dismal. He totaly screwed up Clairtone despite many subsidies from N.S. IMO he just lucked into the Nevada properties. Regardless, ABX

is a very strong au co. that will make a ton of money in the next few years. Now that Munk has made a huge bet on real estate & decreased his interest in ABX, I look for real estate to tank & au to take off.

LGB - Yes indeedy - I love the Constitution.

Im no longer a US Citizen - I'm officially an

Australian But I only tell people this

if they are winning at cricket. Its very touch and go

between the Aussies now and guess who ( the third

world South Africans ) who if they should BEAT the

Aussies IN australia would be like me beating up on

real deal holyfield in South Central LA ( if you get

my drift ) .

But FREE Speech is the WAY - no doubt about that

But frankly I think Karlita was leading you down the

old garden path, LGB. IF you recall, K's message was

that since asian currencies were collapsing, they

couldnt afford to buy gold and would not do so. Now

you and I know that gold performs BEST in countries

with WEAK currencies - and WORST in countries where

people have faith in their currencies. This is axiomatic.

So I think that DESPITE how sort of professional K

SOUNDED, K really was bullsh!tting all of us. In

coming to K's defense ( like the true gent I know you

are ) , you went a little overboard and bought the crap

that K was selling ( im sure against your better

judgment ) - But WE ALL make mistakes - God knows Ive

made a few - but lets not go into that.

Nice catch! And yes, it is of interest. I tried the same
tactics with that stubborn url...must be a way! Thanks again!

To all

Harmony UP 5.5% today. DbnDeep up 3 % .

On futures basis ratio now 51.4 !! I like that.

Keep the faith !

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980120/asian_cris_2.html

"Night and Day"....or "first you say you will and then you say you won't"

Soros is the driving force behind Apex Silver which set out to concentrate on acquiring silver reserves. It has one in Bolivia, which may be the forth largest producing silver mine in the world and one of the largest zinc mines and over 100 more silver properties throughout the world. Coincidenitally with its IPO, silver started showing signs of strength and volatility- a coincidence? Bulls have been known to tinker with the silver market.

for studio R

Okies or anybody can buy the ADR in the USA - ask your

broker - dont know symbol as site I watch it on is stuffed.

I trade it directly on the JSE but it takes a little time

to set up that way.

THE END OF THE LINE... for the Silver Lease CON

Ted Butler is the worlds foremost expert in nuances, intricacies and ramifications of GOLD & SILVER LEASES. Many months ago he exposed the Central Banks ill use of Gold Leasing Operations. Now he shares his insightful observations regarding the Silver Loan CON.

And don't be surprised with future tactics intended to derail
what promises to be a very long and sharp price UPWARD spiral for silver.

...there is no way that the vast bulk of silver loaned can ever be returned.

That was then, this is now - the silver lease CON is over! Here's
why: the report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980120/thai_finan_1.html

1/3 Kinross 2/3 ABX

Gentlemen, unfortunately, there is one ( and only one ) compelling reason the XAU was very weak today in the face of a steady gold price.

PETER MUNK'S TRIZEC HAHN TO SELL ITS ENTIRE HOLDING OF BARRICK GOLD TO PUBLIC!!! ( see today's Canadian Financial Post article ) .

As I have said many times before, when the major figures in the gold industry adopt policies that contradict their pro- gold sermons, then why should the little guys, the institutions, et al, continue to hold their gold shares?

I have said this many times before and I will say it ad inifitum and ad nauseam...Peter Munk and Barrick have done more injury to the entire gold industry than the CB's could ever hope to do.

( see my preceding post )

For those who care:

Harmony Gold Mining trades on the Nasdaq small cap market under HGMCY. Trading is thin, althought the spreads are usually 1/16th or 1/8th. Always name your price when buying this one.

Goldfields down $5.12, probably canadian, about 27% for the day. Most otehr mining shares- down and gold sizzling, up $0.15. Did the bottom fall out of the bucket?

BARRICK GOLD AND PETER MUNK....the nemeses of the gold industry.

+++++++++++++++++
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
++CARL PERKINS+++
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
++++++++++++++++++
::Blue Suede Shoes::
He has gone to be with
++++The Big E+++++
**************************

WE'LL ALL MISS MR. CARL PERKINS. And I hear Chet Atkins is losing his battle with the big "C".

Got that baby in my sights. Muchas gracias, senores.

Wasn't Peter in the "Monkees"...yea, yea, yea...God!...they sucked.

With 3.8 billion ounces of gold above ground, Mr. Munk is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. Talk about small, a pimple on a dimple on a piss ant's ball. The annual production of gold and hedging has little to do with the price of gold. Most of the world has no idea who Peter Munk is.

I knew you had a good heart.

Don't know Dines or his record for good/bad calls. If I was burned by a bad call I'd probably feel like throwing the baby out with the bath water also. But the reason profered to disregard ALL subsequent work by DInes because of ONE bad call is a bit self contradictory: why then would we even trust ourselves again since we ALL have made at LEAST one bad call in our lives? Ergo we should not trust ourselves, which is a sure road to paralysis.

Rather learn from the experience and listean more carefully. Any *exponential* run up is bound to reverse quickly and surely. The 1980 gold run up to US$850 was one such as this. Beware exponential spikes, not those who are fooled by them ( once ) . ( See DOW for past 7 years )

Just a thought before beddie bye.

Some people think that RSA is a third world country _

Well now - Im NOT a big nelson mandela fan - BUT at

least he doesnt go around flashing his whatsis. You

guys MUST be joking - Our politicians are about as

stupid as yours, but oddly enough they seem to have

a bit more class. Maybe its just my imagination. I had

never planned on LIKING these guys, but they DO have a

bit of gravitas.

Glad to see you back online old friend. Keep your 'powder dry'. I'm sure you will do very well. One smart cookie, you are! Thanks for the warning about your stocks, currencies, politics, etc. Hope your sale improve soon.

You're braggin' on your politico's now. There will, no doubt, be a scandle come as a result of that. Like braving your head to look above the barracade only to have ta duck a fast one incoming!!!

Good Ol' Boy, most of the world is no longer invested in gold mining stocks! That is why they trade at floor levels slightly higher than zero.

The people that are invested in gold today know the industry, know who Munk is, know about Barrick gold...

...and today, they learned in big, blazing headlines, that Munk's Trizec Hahn is dumping its entire hefty position in Barrick Gold.

If you do not think that creates negative perceptions about gold mining stocks, then you should consider a career in painting...not investing.

Did I dream it ... or did Barrick announce a buy back program a while back. If I was not in la- la land, would that not imply a certain confidence in the metal. What am I missing?

I have clients from Ethiopia who are acquainted with Nelson Mendela and members of the ANC. They are very concerned that the Africans are not getting their fair share of the economic pie in their country. They realize Mandela is under pressure from oppresive banking and business interests. Is this true? Are you affiliated with any group like the ANC. I personally am a Gephardt leaning Democrat. I think Clinton is moving in the right direction on expanding Medicare/ just a great idea that will help alot of folks who might not otherwise be able to buy insurance.

The idea that Peter Munk and Barrick would announce a share buyback and then proceed to flood the market with millions of shares of Barrick ( via a Trizec- Hahn sale of Barrick shares ) is the apex of double- talk and deceit.

Again, Mr. Munk, why is Barrick not purchasing all the Barrick shares being offered by Trizec- Hahn?

I have absolutely not one scintilla of respect for this man...he is responsible for a significant decline in my net worth...not to mention the net worth of every gold bug on this forum!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barrick is the bellwether of the entire gold industry. It's actions have severe ramifications for all other gold producers...particularly insofar as it's effect on public and institutional perceptions of the industry.

Anybody who is invested in gold mining stocks and who does not recognize this fact is living in a grand land of delusion!!!

And anybody stupid enough to buy one share of Trizec- Hahn's Barrick share offering deserves the kick in the ass they are bound to receive!!!!!

They had many believing that many of those 3.8 billion ounces were on their way to market.....thus the price drop.
It seems that the Asian paper burn might of convinced some otherwise.
Munk should stick to real- estate and leave the mining industry to miners.

Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.06

30 yr. bond at 5.822% . Volume on NYSE 644 million shares. Fairly heavy volume.

XAU/Spot Ratio = .238

People buy value. Most gold companies are not making a profit. Why should they have high market caps when they have uneconomic deposits which are being produced at a loss. Show me the MONEY! I think
John Q. Public has had its fill with all of the Canadian B.S. too. The sell off of Canadian Jr mining companies is long over due. Too bad some of the few legitimate ones were thrown out as well, but, given time, they will be recognized IF they demonstrate value and competence. t

Jack,

When gold turns, I will have lots of this little gem in my PF .. a very well run company .... as you said - not big, but they have turned a profit since their inception in all but one quarter, if memort serves me.

Their cash cost for production at their Nugget Pond mine is very good.

For those not familiar with Richmont, may I suggest that you have a look.

Silver/Gold Ratio = 50.78

All - Kitco's AU spot chart showed a US$2.50 drop about an hour ago - how is this possible? Is there an after- market market?

Trizec Hahn is selling 28 MILLION SHARES!!!!...how's that for creating a perception????

SELL BARRICK ASAP!!!!

Barrick came out of nowhere, it raised $54 million with which it purchased the Mercur Mine in Utah from Getty. It turned it around ( helped by and increase in the price of gold ) and then paid Western States Mining $40 million or so for its holdings in Nevada on which the Goldstrike, Post and Betze deposits were found. I do not know if they were good, lucky or both. At any rate, coming out of nowhere they gained prominence in gold mining industry. With fantastic cash flow and success, Barrick went on to flex its muscles, making many bad investments. Maybe Mr. Monk got tired of the whole thing. He made his mark and I take my hat off to him.

....the one I've worn for the past month gathering mildew and mold.

More than we usually get from Yahoo, a lot of meat here. Tuesday January 20, 3:54 pm Eastern Time

NY precious metals end mixed, gold higher

NEW YORK, Jan 20 ( Reuters ) - COMEX and NYMEX precious metals futures ended mixed Tuesday, though gold saw a
late afternoon rally.

``An investment bank surprised the locals in the gold market with good buying late in the day, but there were few signs of
follow- through- buying by funds which had been covering short positions heavily on Friday,'' said John Giapoutzis, a CTA
and COMEX floor trading with Dynamic Market Research in New York.

COMEX February gold ended up 20 cents at $291.30 an ounce after trading a $293.50- 287.20 range, inside Friday's trading
range.

Total COMEX gold volume was estimated at 38,000 lots.

The CFTC Commitments of Traders data, published late Friday, showed the net short position of funds in COMEX gold was
little changed as of January 13 at 58,528 contracts, compared with 51,044 contracts two weeks earlier.

But COMEX gold open interest fell a heavy 7,276 contracts on Friday to 183,327 lots, and has fallen 14,633 lots since
January 9, reflecting fund shortcovering, analysts said.

After gold prices saw 18- 1/2 year lows in early January, momentum indicators on the daily charts have begun recovering,
but the February contract's five- day moving- average remains just below its 20- day average and below its 50- day average,
suggesting the long downtrend has not reversed yet.

In the bullion market, spot bullion ended quoted $290.20/70 early, compared to the London Tuesday afternoon fix at
$288.40 an ounce, and the New York close Friday around $289.90/40 before the U.S. holiday Monday which closed
COMEX.

Implied lease rates for gold were little changed around 1.60 pct for one month and 1.75 pct for 12 months.

``From current depressed price levels, we expect downside momentum will slow, since low prices are expected to trigger
cutbacks in mine output, reduced forward sales by producers, near- record demand from fabricators and some recovery in
investor offtake,'' Smith Barney analyst David Rinehimer said.

``Moreover, the gold market has discounted the likelihood that 1998 will be another year of relatively heavy supply from
central banks,'' he said.

But in the short term the market has to digest news that Koreans have collected 100 tonnes of gold for sale to help restore
the country's foreign exchange reserves, traders said.

Koreans contributing gold to the quasi- official campaign will be paid in Korean won, a month after submitting their gold.
The Korean won has lost more than 50 pct of its value against the U.S. dollar in the past three months, pushing up the value
of gold in the domestic currency.

Daewoo Corp, which is responsible for exports for the largest campaign, says it is working with international banks to
ensure the gold is marketed in a way that does not disrupt world gold prices.

In other industry news, the slide in gold prices to 18 year lows claimed another victim Friday when U.S. gold producer
Pegasus Gold Inc [AMEX:PGU - news] filed for protection from creditors under U.S. bankruptcy law, after failing to
renegotiate financing.

Last month, Pegasus shut down its Australian Mt. Todd gold mine, but the company said the U.S. bankruptcy filing would
not force the closure of any of its U.S. mines.

On the demand side, India's gold consumption leaped 45 percent to 737 tonnes in calendar 1997, helped by de- regulation of
the market, the World Gold Council said on Monday.

COMEX March silver ended down 11.0 cents at $5.670 an ounce, after trading a $5.855- 5.660 range. Total COMEX silver
volume was estimated at 12,000 lots.

The CFTC data showed funds net long positions slipped to 37,700 lots as of January 13, from 42,127 lots two weeks earlier,
as silver prices retreated from nine year highs.

Last year's rally in silver was stalled by talk of legal action against alleged market manipulation and news the CFTC had
heightened its surveillance of the market, analysts said.

But the rise in silver prices in late 1997 also slowed Indian demand and Dubai customs data showed no silver re- exported in
December. In November, Dubai re- exported 72.567 tonnes to India, up from October's 76.426 tonnes.

``Despite the recent price gyrations, there have been few indications of any easing in the relatively tight supply situation in
the silver market,'' Rinehimer said.

``COMEX silver stocks are still around the 12 year low, just under 110 million ounces, while spreads remain tight and some
delivery months in backwardation.''

``World silver inventories are believed to be around 300 million ounces, equivalent to less than two years of annual supply
deficits,'' he said.

NYMEX April platinum ended down 10 cents at $374.50 an ounce, while NYMEX March palladium closed down $9.15 at
$230.50 an ounce, after racing to new 18 year highs last week.

But the curren lack of progress in negotiating 1998 export contracts between Russia and Japan has heightened speculation
that another prolonged supply disruption may occur this year as it did last year, analysts said.

Since when are todays metal prices fair, todays miners have to be exceptional to make a profit. ABX hedging doesn't help, nor do gold loans or pronouncements of CB sales, or just the bad press about gold.

Tuesday January 20, 4:57 pm Eastern Time

Likelihood of U.S. deflation is "very low" - Parry

LOS ANGELES, Jan 20 ( Reuters ) - The likelihood of general deflation in the United States is very slim, the president of the
Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco said on Tuesday.

``The likelihood of deflation is very low,'' Robert Parry told an audience gathered here for a business conference.

The San Francisco Fed chief said, however, the central bank remained alert and would be ready to combat any possible
deflationary trend in the United States.

``The Fed would fight deflation as aggressively as it is fighting inflation,'' Parry said.

Theories about possible deflation in the U.S. economy started to circulate on Wall Street after an ongoing financial crisis in
East Asia threatened to suddenly reduce demand for U.S. exports.

Some analysts said falling exports could create excessive supply which, in turn, could drive prices of U.S. goods down. Also,
they added, sharp devaluations of several currencies in Asia were expected to drive prices of goods imported by the United
States even lower.

It seems a common Kitcoite phenomenon to launch the most defaming philosophical diatribes against CB gold leasing/loaning, forward selling gold mining companies, etc. On the other hand, it seems just as common to find posters glowing with anticipation at the prospects of riding the nearly inevitable "short squeeze", made possible only by the ( grantedly ) foolish actions of those condemned in the same breath. Why bite the hand you expect to feed you? Isn't this the contrartian delight: allowing foolishness, political and otherwise, to create beautiful opportunities for him?

Having said that, I must also say that I, to an extent, agree with both positions. While according to what is right and lawful, we should not have monopolistic agencies such the Federal Reserve Banks, the IMF, etc to bail out greedy undeserving nincompoops with stolen ( tax ) money, I am grateful that they create opportunities for perceptive observer to win back some of what has been taken, and perhaps a little more.

I speak with confidence from a youthful mind, but welcome any and all critisism, including some of the excellant ad homs bestowed on others. They amuse me.

Overhangs are heavy. I was raised in a lead/silver district in Utah and was there when the U.S. sold off its stratigic reserve of silver and then melted wown the coin and sold that. I would like to see the CB's out of gold all together. Then gold could compete on its own with the fiat currencies. As long as they control such massive reserves, the fear will always be there that there will be a dumping. However, I find it hard to believe that they will give the stuff away. In the meantime, gold producers should aim to be low cost producers or lock in with their lower grade deposits when prices are high.

One problem with your 15:33 re Gold preforming best in countries where currency and other crises exist. It AIN'T happening! The Koreans are VOLUNTARILY turning over a lot of their Gold, and the other distressed Asian countries have stopped being net buyers and instead become sellers.

The facts speak for Karlito. As to hypotheticals... they remain just that, or discredited depending on your point of view.

You want to root for Gold, look to inflation as your friend, not deflationary collapse.

Excellent contribution, but be forewarned that deductive analytical reason is not highly valued around here!

"If you have gold and silver in your pocket you live in a capitalist society. If you have paper you live in a socialist society."

Comments like this from mozel are so ridiculous they defy logic. By that definition all the countries in the world are socialist.

That includes Thatcher's Britain. You remember her don't you?... Slightly to the right of Attila the Hun? She privatised national industries, smashed the unions. YEp she's a good socialist! ( Sarcasm thing ) .

The technical expertise that ABX received from a long forgotten take over of a Canadian Miner named Camflo was just another reason for ABX's rise. Wasn't that Utah property in legal contention for years?
We all need luck, but when that luck is used against the industry that made you - I rest my case.

Excerpt from [Beckman], Chapter Six, "Shams, Scams, Swindles and Frauds... "Big Bang" Style, p. 186:

"...An outstanding example of a well- played misinformation game was played in November 1986, at the time of the dismissal of Sheikh Yamani, Saudi Arabia's almost universally popular Oil Minister. Yamani was far from being the "fair haired boy" of King Fahd. Many felt that King Fahd would have liked to see Yamani taking a firmer line over production quotas during the OPEC meeting that was concluded two weeks before Yamani's dismissal. Immediately after his dismissal, the oil price plunged since it was believed that in Yamani's absence King Fahd would take a stronger line on production quotas, which would ultimately lead to the type of free- for- all price war that occurred during the previous summer.

What followed was a second version, to the effect that Yamani had actually been fired for offering a 50 cent price discount on a netback basis without telling the King. The King, it was said, would in fact be going for higher prices rather than higher production levels. In the market, the price per barrel reacted accordingly. It moved up. The history of OPEC is riddled with this type of disinformation and misinformation, designed to influence price levels, through the medium of forecast feed- back.

Then Charles T. Maxwell, Senior Energy Strategist of Cyprus J. Lawrence came on the scene. Maxwell is probably one of the five most influential energy correspondents in the world. His track record is excellent, and his assessment of situations such as we are in now is accepted internationally. Maxwell claimed that the first explanation had been the correct one; the second version had been issued in an attempt at deliberate disinformation. King Fahd, said Maxwell, was the one who favoured netbacks. Yamani was not. Moreover the King wanted Saudi Arabia to abandon its recent role of swing producer, which Yamani had been supporting. Maxwell explained that there was a further conflict between them, dating back to the spring of 1985. The King and the Princes, Sultan and Salaman, had decided it would be wise to pursue market share - even though it meant driving down prices. This, they hoped, would drive out the non- OPEC producers, who were handicapped by having to meet higher break- even prices. Free from non- OPEC competition, Saudi Arabia would then be able to pick the right moment to go for a higher price, in an attempted replay of the early 1970s.

Meanwhile the congenitally gullible were rising to the disinformation bait. On the assumption that the worst was over for the oil market, the Taiwanese have been behind the purchase of oil wells from hard- hit owners in Louisiana and Oklahoma. Much of Taiwan's $13 billion trade surplus with the United States has been invested in what they saw as depressed US assets, available at bargain prices. They expect that rising oil prices will restore the value of the wells they have been buying. But what gives them that idea?

It would not be unreasonable to assume that the Taiwanese were deliberately allowed access to a "confidential" CIA report. According to this report, to which I have had access, OPEC is still capable of creating economic turmoil throughout the Western World. Supposedly the Grand Design outlined by the CIA would have a devastating impact on the finances of every single American, as well as threatening the security of the United States itself. This, naturally, was music to the ears of anyone involved in Far Eastern Trade.

The scenario was as simple as it was seductive. The Saudi bloc deliberately engineered the oil glut, bringing the price down from $44 p.b. to under $15 p.b. According to the CIA, the reason was to stop American "counter- measures" from being launched in an attempt to reduce US dependence on Middle East Oil. The next possible move - say the highly imaginative compilers of the report - is that the Saudi bloc, having achieved stage one of its objective, is poised to initiate another price hike. This time, the game will be played in a "softly, softly" manner, to avoid waking the dog. The CIA believes the Saudi bloc has the muscle to do it, and claims that neither President Reagan nor Washington is prepared to meet such a strategy.

To return from the realms of fantasy and misinformation to the real world, falling oil prices had led the US President to cut back drastically on the topping- up rate of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Oil companies and consumer industries followed. Mr Reagan cut the development programme, and slashed subsidies for oil conservation schemes, such as home insulation. Plans to rescue the coal industry were also abandoned.

A leading Fleet Street journalist once estimated that 10% of what he wrote was fact; and 90% fiction. It was up to the reader to decide which was which. Much the same might be said of this "confidential" CIA Report, which the whole world appears to have read. And it is highly likely that the Taiwanese entrepreneurs got the facts mixed up with the fiction..."

Ahh- - - - but what might make the price of oil go up? Thoughts, anyone?

References

[Beckman, Robert]: Into the Upwave, How to Prosper from Slump to Boom, Milestone Publications, 1988 4th ed.

A farmer can protect himself by hedging. So can a gold miner ( albeit of sufficient size and sophistication ) . Hedging is not bad. It is good as it provides insurance against down turns in the market. Mining is a risky business, but hedging gives you the advantage of taking out the risk. It is the risk of the business that makes it truly enjoyable with all of the dangers. You never know if you are a million feet from a dollar or a foot from a million. There is no law that says that you are entitled to make a profit.

Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released after trading today:

Gold: Rose 9,948 troy ounces to 454,322

Silver: Tumbled 2,187,331 ( ! ) troy ounces to 108,742,036 - Just above a 13 year low.

Mercur was just another example of a large oil company mismanaging a mining property.

I like the way you put things...you like to see the glass half- full instead of half- empty. That's the only way to keep your sanity given the depressing state of affairs in the gold industry.

Still, you should not be surprised to see frustration and hostility aimed at the CB's given the apparent conpiratorial nature of their sales of gold reserves. What most irks precious metal investors about the CB methodology is that, when they act in a cartel- like fashion, nobody raises hell. But heaven forbid if gold producers or PM speculators act in a similar fashion!!! If they do, then the government screams market manipulation, files lawsuits, and levels fines and penalties.

18 OF THE DINES LETTER'S PAST PREDICTIONS - Right- On- The- Money!!

The Dines Letter was the world's only investment advisory to have predicted the Asian currency crash in advance. Some of these past 18 predictions are already coming true.

During the last two years the internationally recognized market analyst, James Dines, has made some incredibly audacious predictions... and they are turning out as he foresaw them. Here is a review of his fast- forward & quite accurate view of the current currency chaos sweeping ALL ASIA.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

It feels like you know Karlito99, so your post
in his memory can be understood.

For some reason I do not feel bad about you,
I think you are just an active investor, and
if you make money when others lose money, that
means you are probably a smart guy.

Karlito is different, for some reason he made
people mad, me included. More than that he liked
to show people who are already in trouble that they
are losers now and will be losers in the future.

Is this the way people loke to be treated? No and no.

Karlito used no logic and demonstrated complete absence
of sense of humor. He showed no respect or understanding.
He did not answer a number of simple questions, like
"will the price of gold increase, if US$ goes down in
relation to the other currencies?" I believe you know
it will - it's pure mathematics.

Why do we need this kind of poster
who makes so many people mad?

Plus he is a coward, did not want to fight at all, like,
for example, you do.

Why didn't you acuse me of contributing to his departure?
I called him names too - he made me mad.

I had a little dispute with Selby, for example, but
we ended it like gentlemen, shaking hands at the end,
and showed each other a certain respect. It was a natural
feeling. Why didn't I have the same feeling about Karlito?

Because Karlito is the bullsh*ter, and as such, Karlito
must go away.

Gold is the best rainy day money you can have. If they won't take your paper, they will take gold. South Korea is coughin gup some of its gold as a rainy day money, when its fiat is having trouble. But let all fiats get in trouble and gold will still be there, rising above the heap.

Alot has been posted here good and bad about Munk and other Big
Mining CEOs as though they were operating their Gold companies in
a vacuum. The fact is that they are all in bed with the BANKERS
they have to be, that is the way the system works. They borrow paper money , and sometimes Gold from Bankers and have to pay back same,
and as we all know by now Gold is a very POLITICAL commodity.
My take on the "negative" news on ABX today has to do more with
said Bankers panicked view that Gold is about to take off Big Time
when it is made obvious that they will all INFLATE like hell to try to
get out of "crisis" and since Gold Shares always lead the actual
price, they are desperately trying to hold the stampede into said shares and out of equities and bonds. Don't forget ABX is a leader and there is
a very large short position in ABX and other Gold Shares, which has
the potential for powerful panic short covering rallies.

AS you probably know, as soon as the psychological 300 mark is
broken and headed for 350 the sentiment of all Gold Shares will
change very quickly, so better buy them cheap while one can.

test

I sense that you also feel that gold and silver are not competively priced for miners to make a buck.
I feel some miners are mining for the shortsellers ( translation ) the guys that gave them the loans to put their risky projects on line.

Karlito was one of the few people on this line who had a grip on reality. The reason you don't like him is because he told you things that you didn't want to hear AND backed it up with intelligence and good analysis.

As far a annoying other people go, the goldbugs here are so rude that Karlito was only giving what he was getting. I've read Karlito's posts. They weren't rude ( unlike tolerant1 ) .

It was a delight to read his posts. Especially when most others here were full of nothing but Right- wing hatred, conspiracy theories and ridiculous assertions about socialism.

Please people, wake up and smell the paper. You'll be better for it. In Fawlty Towers a psychiatrist says of Basil 'There is enough material there for an entire conference'. I feel the same way about this chat line.

Live Long and Prosper.

Date: Tue Jan 20 1998 18:00
Realistic ( COMEX DATA ) ID#410194:

Thanks. Can you tell us how much of the gold is actually available is available delivery? Are they parking it for show?

Can you give us the same information on silver? How low can it go before someone jumps on it and drive it up for all its worth?

Palladium and Platinium have strong upward potential. Russia has to ship something sometime, you would think? What are the charts saying? Would some kind chartist post with MACD, b bands, rsi, ...

Whoa! 108 million??? Do my eyes decieve me? Silver base building, if this keeps up, look out above!

Someone here gave me some tips about where to find currency values. They suggested Rueters and Bloomberg. Thanx heaps for that.

Everything is extremely competitive, but you can lock in and protect yourself or shoot for the moon. Your choice. Depends on whether you like to eat well or sleep well. Yet there is nothing like being the low cost procucer.

your comments properly, you are suggesting that the bankers want to
"dump" these shares on the market to hold down the gold price.
I saw this a little bit differently, in that I think it was a conscious decision by Trizec Hahn to "get out" of assets which are peropheral to them i.e. gold. Wall Street likes "pure plays" and companies that are focussed on one industry. It seems to me that the "effect" on Barrick stock price is secondary to what they are planning to do. By the way, do we have any information on the price that these shares are being sold ? One plus
in this deal ( it seems to me ) is that Barrick will get a whole lot more shareholders ( and maybe a far more liquid stock ) .

From USA Gold

MARKET UPDATE ( 01/20/98 ) AM- - - - - Gold was off a little in early in New York trading with at least one
bullion bank selling into a strong opening. Gold was strong in foreign markets overnight. Hong Kong was up on
short covering and bargain hunting. One trader attributed the strong Hong Kong market to Indian buying and
Japanese short covering. The overall market has been characterized on the demand side by strong consumption in
India and bullion coin sales in the United States at the highest levels since 1987. The market continues to be held
in check by hedge fund short- selling. If a large of the longs decide to take delivery - - which is rumored - - a squeeze
could develop as early as January 30th, First notice day. On first notice day those with contracts on the COMEX
must state their intentions. If they are short, they must confirm their intention if they want to deliver metal. If they
are long, they must confirm their intention to take delivery of metal. The rumor ( unsubstantiated ) we have hear
from a reliable source is that there is consortium of buyers who want to take delivery. This same source cautions
strongly that he cannot confirm this consortium's intentions. DO NOT TRADE ON THIS RUMOR ALONE. DO
YOUR HOMEWORK! One more major factor to be considered is the fact that even a weak recovery in Asia would
stimulate very strong gold demand because the currency crisis will remain fresh in investors' minds even as the
economy recovers. A good example of this sort of thing is India. They experienced a currency disaster with the
Rupee similar to what occurred in the rest of Asia in 1993- 94 and this has fueled the record demand growth in India
today - - some 700 tons annually, a little over one- third the world's mine production. That's it for now. Have a good
day. We will update if anything interesting happens.

What do you mean "please people, wake up"?

Old you said "One more major factor to be considered is the fact that even a weak recovery in Asia would stimulate very strong gold demand because the currency crisis will remain fresh in investors' minds even as the economy recovers."

Does this mean GoldBugs ought to quit rootin for Asian meltdown/collapse and start rootin for Asina recovery? ( Hehehe )

Avalon: You have the right take on the proposed Trizec sale of ABX shares. A modest negative in my judgement, but not really that important. I do agree with John Disney though that ABX is not exactly the most attractive gold stock around today.

With Hepcat and Another arguing the bottom is in, while EB, Oldman, and RJ are talking about significant further downside action, somebody is going to be proved wrong before long. My bet is on Hepcat and Another.

Spock, I'm glad I could be of help. It is absolutely astonishing
how much "stuff" is now available via the "net." Kitco is an astounding
source... of gossip and of hard information, and there are literally tonnes of other pages on the Net I've found that are useful. Glad to be of help.

Spock I was going to respond to Oris and others, but you said it perfectly, ( and with fewer words! )

You asked for opinions on gold stocks to burn money on. Some weeks ago I bought some DROOY, which has gone up since. As I'm the least experianced investor here anyone would be a fool to buy something because I bought it. But if a million other fools buy it I can sell and retire. :- )

I mean exactly what I said before. Many people ( I don't know if it includes you ) have this unrealistic notion of gold being 'real' money and everything else being 'not' money.

As I have said before, money is money because people think it is. So if the majority of the population and the business world think that gold is out of date then IT IS OUT OF DATE.

By all means invest on the lows etc., but there will be no gold standard. Like it or hate it govt issue paper is now 'money' becuase people believe it is.

Gold is now primarily a commodity but it can and is still used for monetary purposes. I hold some of the stuff myself, but I don't think that it is the only 'real' money.

There is a real world out there and very few people subscribe to the goldbugs view of the world. Be aware of this and act accordingly.

Live Long and Prosper.

bounce off the low clouds, it's not the best I've ever seen, but still pretty good. The best things in life really are free.

I mostly disagreed with Karlito, but felt that he was intelligent and served to serve up inspiration for good debate. On this site, we should recongnize, that we are all human beings and as human beings, we do not all think alike. We should respect each other's opinions and refraim from taking exceptional opinions, referring to him in unflattering terms, like the English who always refer to the opposition as the "Right Honorable" even if he is a no good, dirty rotten , son of a bitch. p

Kitcoites, Spock is right on the topic of gold bugs and right wing hatred. I lurk on this line, reading to catch the ebb and flow of
how the gold bugs respond to the market, and as I watch, I am astonished at how often the vitriol of the far right exhibits itself. I love the
fact that Kitco gives us this format, but sometimes I fear for the world when I read the mistakes, misinformation, paranoia and just out right
anger that is exhibited here. Finally, one can trade the gold market very well just "listening" to the Kitco chat line... buyin' when the Kitcoites are cryin' and sellin' gold when the vast majority of the Kitcoites are yellin' in unison. 'tis absolutely astonishing really.

Thanx for that. Am rooting for the Asian recovery!!

I agree. We all have our different opinions but we should express them with respect for other people. This has not, however, been happening on this line.

Maybe we can now all turn over a new leaf.

You have a tough fight ahead. I'd advise all mining investors to buy companies with low and manageble debt service, and who show cash flow pile ups into their coffers.

I'd sell all large operators 'under threats' to make them dump their hedges. They can take the profit and cut back on mining according to costs which then may be seriously addressed.

question re your 18.24 about the longs. If I read your 18.24 correctly, does that mean that "all hell could break loose " ( to the upside ) about the 30th ?
This may be elementary to you but I am still trying to educate myself on
some of this. TIA for a response.

Spock means if you do not think like he does you are right- wing hater. And then the question is why is he on this "chat line" when he thinks we are so stupid?

LGB:

Do you think it is a coincidence that gold and the Asian markets collapsed together and have bounced together? Goldbugs should be rooting for an Asian recovery, not a deflationary collapse. Economic and financial crises are only bullish for gold if they lead to increased global inflation and/or loss of confidence in the greenback. Deflationary upheavals that strengthen the dollar are bearish for the yellow.

Seems to me that the bottom in Asia probably is in, although a substantial retracement of the recent rally is quite probable. The biggest risk to the Asian and gold markets today is the possibility that China will devalue the yuan and the HK dollar. Unlikely, but not impossible

You are brilliant and will be extremely successful. It is good to have some realistic investment strategy on this site. Let us reward the competent and banish the rediculous.

G.O.B. re your 18:11. I've seen that statement many times re Gold. Or words to that effect. you said "Gold is the best rainy day money you can have. If they won't take your paper, they will take gold."

I've always felt this was a completely absurd statement in today's world. If you don't believe that is the case, take your 1 Oz. maple leaf, ( or better yet, your lil Englehard bar ) , go into 500 retail establishments with currency and Gold, and see where you end up making a successful transaction. Me thinks the ratio will be about 100:1 or better in favor of currency.

This is not destined to change in our lifetimes. If Armageddon , total collapse ever does occur, your Gold will be worthless. Only food, water, gas, and heating oil will have value. ( and guns if you're one of extremeist gun whacko nuts we have here...I own a few myself but not plannin to head for the hills with em to join that "General" psycho kinda feller )

Spock, the Asian nationsn will recover, and they will do so all the faster if the IMF's demands upon them to devalue, to cut spending and to raise taxes are ended. These are vibrant nations, with strong work ethics, and they will over- come even teh IMF's worst demands upon them. They will do all the better once democratic principles are created. That is the lesson that the West can offer at the present.

'Tis far better to be optimists, for the history of man is that the profits go to those who are. Certainly there are rough spots along the way, and certainly the present situation inAsia is a very rough spot indeed. But overtime, we shall all do well to own shares in Japan, shares in Indonesia, and shares in Korea now that thos emarkets have been beaten to the levels they attained recently.

Two cheers ( I'll keep the third in abeyance for now ) for those of us who lurk on this line and who are optimists and not hate mongers.

Regards, tgl

I did not call anyone stupid. And I did not make a blanket asseretion that ALL the people I disapree with are Right wingers. I made the observation that there is allot of right wing thinking on this line; and there is. If you disagree with me all well and good, but I have read nasty comments about Jews and 'evil socialists' on this line and have reacted accordingly.

I am on this line to get PM information. Amongst all the rubbish is some really good posts. But I am sick of religious rantings, right wing paranoia and childish abuse. Can we please stick to the topic ( Au and Ag ) and disagree with each other with respect.

And please don't put words in my mouth.

Agree with your post except that an Asian collapse had to happen for the
dollar to reverse course.

Would that be a new maple leaf?

I agree completely. No co- incidence. I have postulated here that Gold has done exactly the OPPOSITE of what diehard GoldBugs predicted in the "distressed" countries. They have been selling, not buying.

Course the GoldBugs will say that it was frenzied "manipulation" that caused Gold's price fall as the CB's and IMF scrambled to attack it after the Asian crises began. I don't buy that at all. Fundamentals drove it down, and fundamentals will drive it up again.

It's inflation that'll cause Gold to shine again, not deflationary depression.

Thanx. I hope you are right. Would hate to see the world slide inot a 1930 situatuion.

One must first make inquiries before making conclusions.
How did Trizec obtain ABX shares?
ALL I will say is look what the said BANKERS did to the Reichmans,
they broke them and really "stole" their Canary Warff development
in London claiming it would never be profitable, I just read a few weeks
ago of the exeedingly high rents paid there, if you can find space, and
PUFF....magically Canary Warff is worth Billions again. If it was any other
sector other than real estate, where BANKERS call the tune one
might not necessarily take my view, however the fact is Bankers are knee
deep into real estate developers making or breaking them at will, even as I am writing this post the Pres. of Caldwell Securities who push Trizec when asked why sell ABX when it's so low, responded "this is not about GOLD Trizec needs more cash.... yah right... so did the Reichmans.

I made no comments on Maple Leafs. I hold a bit of bullion if that is what you are refering to.

Quit being so logical. It was a joke.

Had this same disagreement with Karlito. You take your rubles, bots, or some of these other strange sounding currencies and I will take the maple leaf and let us see who can first arrange to buy something at the super market. I may have to trade off mine to someone in line, even at something below world price, but you will go hungry. Now lets go to the middle of the Sierra Madres which does not have a bank within 300 kilometers and see how you do with your ruples and I with my gold. For God's sake, be a citizen of the world, not some accountant from Podunk, MO.

Just curious.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980120/canada_tri_2.html

I will agree I put words in your mouth just like you just put words in mine. Call it a draw. I certainly agree with you when you say ill will has no place here, against anyone, even Right Wingers, which I, as a Libertarian, do not consider myself. Live long and Prosper!

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980120/ny_fed_mcd_1.html

farfel: American Barrick is the backbone of many gold mutual funds, and Peter Munk has been respected in the gold mining industry as a shrewd manager of that company. First he informs the public that he is buying back ABX shares, and then Trizec Hahn announces sale of its holdings in ABX. When you calm down ( it's only money - - which I always tell myself when my investments go sour - - helps a little ) could you tell us just what Trizec Hahn is - - a holding company? Does that mean that Peter Munk now longer controls ABX?
By the way, what do you think of Pierre Lassonde, director of Franco Nevada, and Euro Nevada? I gather that he is a very astute individual and that these companies are very well run. Just what is he up to these days? Given the erratic behavior of ABX, we may be better off following the behavior of Pierre Lassonde's companies or Newmont mining, to see what the majors are doing during these complicated times.
I would also like your later calm assessment of the Barrick activities, is that it does not appear rational - - what are we missing? Has some mutual fund company made a secret deal to buy out Trizec Hahn in anticipation of a gold rally? This is possible, given how thin the gold equity market is!
Or is this ominous indeed? Do you know Pierre Lassonde well enough to ask him? Thanks - - JTF

They outlawed gold money years ago.......Haven't you heard.
Out of sight out of mind.
Everything is on paper, derogotory news paper- reports, paper$'s, paper$ checks, paper$ stocks, paper contracts based on paper$ and those new fangled plastic substitutes....the list goes on and on.... its all we know.
Put your money where the action is.....right???

IBM trading down 6 pts in after- hours trading. Enough to unnverve the bulls?

I know LGB won't search the archives for my statements on Karlito because he knows the truth. And I won't waste any more space after this.

LGB's investment strategies appear to me to have a peculiar bent similar to multiple personalities. When I first read his posts he said everyone who was bullish on gold was an idiot and that the Dow could only go up. Suddenly he said he had sold all of his stock last summer, was waiting for Dow 6700, was buying gold coins, Pegasus stock, silver stocks, and that 280 was the bottom for gold. He sounded a lot like most of us here. NOW he is back on the attack and again worshipping at the feet of Karlito.

Karlito's thinking and the majority thought here are almost mutually exclusive. I don't think that one can agree with the PM bulls and at the same time agree with the Mighty Karlito ( please correct me if I'm wrong 'cause I'm just a novice investor only here to learn. )

Pagoda, if that's that you call real- time analysis, good luck to you. It appears to me to be very confused thinking. I am in very close agreement with at least one of the LGB's personalities. I recently sold out of stocks just like LGB, but was a little ( but big in $ ) early in nat. res. stocks. It seems LGB could well be attacking his own newly acquired ideas ( if that particular personality told us the truth ) which is well beyond my pathogenic, swinistic, moronic, extremist, losing, National Socialistic ( see list below ) ability to comprehend.

LGB's supporters, please advise me where I have strayed. Like I said I agree with at least one of his personalities. But how can his other personalities coexist with the PM bull personality ( must be a Helluva battle ) and which ones do you support? From minute to minute you never know which one you're talking to.
_________________________________________________________________________
mercilessly assaulted
assaulted in a henious, vicious, unprovoked way
swine
unprovoked insults
extremist morons haunting this forum
Nazi remarks
a winner among losers
small minded, emotion- driven pathogens
spew their venomous rhetoric ceaselessly and poinlessly

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/980120/international/stories/zimbabwe_1.html

Why are these mining companies increasing production? When the price is low, it is time to reduce production. These headlines should read, We are pleased to report that we are dumping more gold on the market so that we can sell all our reserves before the price goes up.

Richmont Mines Increases Gold Production More Than 140 Percent: ( ME:RIC. ) Richmont Mines' gold production reached 72,800 ounces of gold in 1997 compared to 30,100 ounces in 1996, an increase of more than 140 percent. - Jan 20 11:50 AM EST

High River Gold Mines Ltd. New Britannia Mine Exceeds Production and Exploration Targets in 1997 for Both: High River Gold Mine High River Gold Mines Ltd. is pleased to report the excellent production and exploration results in 1997 from its 50 percent- owned New Britannia Mine; TVX Gold Inc. owns the remaining 50 percent and is the operator. - Jan 20 9:49 AM EST

I know P.L., a very smart guy. I have not followed his companies that closely, but do know that they are taking a shot at being a producer, along with their royalty holdings, on a property which I would love to have. Do your homework, it is probably a good buy.

Rioting and violence is being reported by CNN citing 30% pay cuts and failures to pay year- end bonuses. Nothing on the net yet.

Maybe they are making a profit. It is not impossible.

If you read that Yahoo URL below you will note that the so called
24 million ABX shares sale is not a sale at all. It is a "BOUGHT DEAL"
at CDN $26.40 on installment basis and not offered to US citizens,
only Canadians. ...hmmmmm .......... Insider Buying or what?

But the anti Gold PROPAGANDA machine is on overdrive as I stated
earlier attempting to quash any bullish sign for GOLD. The truth is out!

Good Ol Boy: I appreciate the suggestion. Are you talking about a producing mine, or a proven underground site? Thanks!

Just interviewed by Lou Dobbs on CNN. Mr. Fischer bristled at the use of the word "bailout" by Mr. Dobbs. He feels it is not an accurate description of what the IMF does.

largest publicly traded real estate company in Canada ( with big office
buildings and shopping centers ) . Hahn Corporation was a US developer ( based in San Diego ) of very large regional shopping centers ) .
I seem to recall that Hahn had about twenty or thirty regional shopping centers around the US. I was in the shopping center business and happen to know some of the background . .

How will the government pay its trillions in funded and unfunded debt?
How will the populace pay off their personal debt?
Interesting, that if it occured; how it would be handled 'if all the paper that got us their in the first place would really make us all richer.
A good question for AG.

Interesting announcement today following up ABX's claim they are going to buy back their shares. Trizec going to sell 30 million shares but not to Barrick but to the public at 26+ dollars. Why doesn't barrick buy them oof of Trizec insterad of putting another 30m shares out in the float. IMO it's not worth 26 bucks considering the book value is 10 or so. Any wriedowns in the wind?

Tuesday, January 20, 1998

Loonie sinks to 12- year low

TORONTO ( CP )  Asia took most of the blame again for the loonie's sudden swan dives Tuesday.
At one point, the Canadian dollar plunged to 69.34 cents US  close to its all- time trading low of 69.17 cents US  before traders pushed up the price amid a quick round of bargain hunting.
But the dollar dipped again in late trading before closing the day at 69.37 cents US, the lowest closing price since February 1986.
One Bay Street analyst suggested the loonie's afternoon slide was triggered by rumors that Quebec Premier Lucien Bouchard might call a snap election to capitalize on his popularity in the wake of this month's devastating ice storm.
"There's a lot of Canadian bears out there who'll take any reason to sell the Canadian dollar," the analyst said.
But Rob Palombi, analyst with Standard and Poor's MMS International, said the initial selling pressure actually started before trading opened in Toronto because some Asian currency markets had been hammered overnight.
The Indonesian currency, for example, sank to a new low against the U.S. dollar as the Standard and Poor's rating agency announced that Indonesia's banks had been critically impaired by borrower defaults.
Bad loans, soaring debt and failing businesses have become all too common in Asia since last summer. And with Asian currencies under attack, global investors have been seeking shelter in so- called safe- haven currencies, such as the U.S. dollar.
That has put added pressure on the Canadian dollar, which has a reputation for getting the shakes in volatile times.
The Bank of Canada stepped in to buy loonies Tuesday to give the currency strength, but it was corporate traders who provide most of the support, said Andrew Pyle, chief strategist at ABN Amro Bank Canada.
"They saw the movement in the Canadian dollar as an attractive place to buy  that's what was really pushing it."
The dollar has been wallowing around the 69- cent- US mark since mid- December, mainly because the turmoil in Asia has led to widespread concern that Canada's natural resource industries will suffer from a lack of demand from overseas.
But Gordon Thiessen, governor of the Bank of Canada, argued Tuesday that the direct effects on Canada are likely to be modest because trade with Asia, including Japan, makes up less than 10 per cent of Canada's exports.
Still, the impact on the world economy and the downward pressure on commodity prices  which hurts big Canadian forestry and mining companies "are more important potential channels of impact on Canada," Thiessen said in a lunchtime speech in Kitchener, Ont.
"The situation in Asia is still evolving. And we do not know at this stage how quickly or effectively the Southeast Asian, Korean and Japanese economies will respond to the measures that have been taken to deal with their problems."
In South Korea, a country accustomed to lifetime employment, labor unions agreed to a pact Tuesday that could lead to one million layoffs.
Meanwhile, Statistics Canada released a report Tuesday showing Canada's shipments of manufactured goods slipped 0.3 per cent in November from October, partly due to lower component prices for electrical and electronic products.
"Weaker than expected manufacturing trade data ... has raised fears that we're going to get a bad export numbers," Palombi said. "That has ... put downward pressure on the dollar."
But the federal agency also reported that the backlog of orders to manufacturers rose 2.6 per cent in November, the 10th increase in the first 11 months of 1997 and an indication of a robust domestic economy.
Palombi said that could help the loonie regain its strength.
"The headline manufacturing numbers were weak but there's underlying strength there."
Pyle agreed.
"The dollar shouldn't be down here where it is now. We're on the cusp of seeing a reversal in Canada's trade performance," he said.
"As that sinks into the minds of traders you will see sentiment towards the currency turn around."

SOROS KNOWS, BUT WONT TELL... About Gold & the Dollar

That Soros won't reveal more about his position on the fate of fiat currencies ( and thus his opinion on gold ) is significant. Something is undoubtedly up his sleeve as we have witnessed in his recent positioning in the silver market ( Apex ) as silver is due to skyrocket ( see Ted Butler's recent article ) . More than any other player in the market today, Soros's every move should be monitored. Given Soros's measurable success in currency markets, and given his alliance with the world's greatest and oldest market makers ( the Rothschilds ) , Soros is undoubtedly beginning to play part of his hand. These two players will undoubtedly be key market makers in resolving the war between fiat currencies ( the U.S. $ ) and GOLD.

To read the ALCHEMY OF FINANCIAL CHECKMATE - EPILOGUE report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

If they are making a profit, I am glad someone is. I think reduction in supply will be one of the keys to a gold rally. This may take a while. I am sure it will eventually be worth the wait.

It was a Nevada deposit, not that big, but with exceptionally high silver and gold values. I don't know if it is in production yet.

Brother LGB makes a potent point. There is indeed the potential that a "meltdown" or "crisis" brought on by profligate paper mongery will not end in a resurgence of gold, but rather a transcendence of the consensus necessities that have been our foundation for the past two decades. Food. Water, Fuel. One can imagine the rest. Not that gold, or silver for that matter, have lost their metaphysical values and true relationships to scrip. But that the current "reality" has gone so far, for so long, that changing it, understanbding its essence and its philosophical and technical flaws, will take decades of unraveling. And with no help from those in positions of power who might know better. No, the "word" comes from " wild- eyed goldbugs" at Kitco, discredited by commodity price events in real time, while those of the intellectual stature to lead us from the wilderness, those who once sat at the right hand of giants like Ayn Rand, keep tight lipped and play the game, refusing to shrug, and deprive us all of our logical inheritance...Value for value. No, my friends, though I have clashed with him before, LGB is right. The philosophic emptyness will not be filled so quickly. Certainly not so quickly as many goldbugs may conceive. The carnage in Asia of the exportation of American inflation is a human tragedy that will have repercussions ugly to behold. Is it any more to be welcomed, this killer inflation, because it is visited upon others, rather than ourselves? Already people are killing people in their "disappointment" and confusion, and in the rekindling of ethnic hates. The time is coming, and may well be here, when the basic neccessities will carry far more weight than the nobility of gold and silver, in the minds of men. We stand at an awesome threshhold. Let us not rejoice too quickly in what appears to be our gains. They are someone else's loss. Perhaps a very great one. And, in the end, a greater one for ourselves.

wrong tree on this one; You're right, they are selling 28 million shares
for C $ 743 million. Trizec is a Canadian company ( listed in Toronto ) and
that is why they are not offering it to US citizens. They don't want to have to deal with the SEC if they can avoid it. Those 28 million shares
could be picked up by European and other Non- US pension funds with probably only 28 telephone calls, maybe even fewer than that.
. ( So why, mess around with mom and pop investors in the US ? Sorry, no insider deals here.

Placer Dome ( PDG )
throws in the towel on its
Venezuelan operations
- - exclusive report by VHeadline/VENews  Editor Roy S. Carson - -


Caracas: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 - - Canadian mining corporation, Placer Dome ( PDG ) is throwing in the towel on it's Venezuelan operations ... effective immediately!

Exclusives sources at Venezuela's Ministry of Energy & Mines ( MEM ) have told VHeadline/VENews that top executives from Vancouver met with Minister, Erwin Arrieta, earlier today to spring the surprise news that PDG is to immediately "suspend" operational activities in Venezuela.

The news comes as the Attorney General, Ivan Dario Badell, opened an investigation into "irregularities" allegedly committed by Energy & Mines Ministry and Venezuelan Guayana Corporation ( CVG ) officials in the unauthorized issuance of concessions, titles and work contracts since the early nineties!

MEN Minister Arrieta is said to have immediately called to President Rafael Caldera on information received revealing that Placer Dome is hurrying to issue a public statement tomorrow ( Wednesday ) announcing their "suspension of activities" decision as being due to the falling price of gold on world markets but also citing "judicial insecurity" in Venezuela as a get- out cause.

VHeadline/VENews was able to surprise rival Crystallex International lawyers in Caracas with the news and a somewhat shaken Dr. Gonzalo Tejera Paris said "it's a further argument in favor of our point of view about Las Cristinas 4 & 6 ... they ( Placer Dome ) know they're going to lose..."


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -




We hope to bring additional details
in further updates of this webpage
through this Tuesday evening!

Seems to me a straight business decision; if they buy the shares out of the market ( instead of a private sale ) the price will drop and they can buy them back cheaper.

Actually, I'm not a Barrick fan ( I favor the SA mines ) but if I were inclined to buy Barrick, I believe I would do it on the upcoming 'dippie' opportunity.

Perhaps this is one of the signs of 'blood in the 'gold- mining' streets' - long term institutional holders finally giving up. A buy signal, anyone?

My take on this is that if ABX was going up anytime soon Trizec would have held the shares or used them as collateral. 26+ is too much. The brokers get there cut and it will be in my opinion mom and pops buying bbecause of the installment receiepts.

I thought in my absence, discussion here might settle down. So much factiousness, so little substance. One might imagine the site exists as a means of psychotherapy. Everyone should re- read Barb Hughes' post this afternoon. She, at least, understands something fundamental about gold trading. Rather than indulging in amateur philosophy, she offers us a simple quiz.

"1} Which commodities, that are actively traded worldwide, are equated in US #'s per unit of trade?
2}Which one of these commodities is used daily, in one form or another, by at least 80% of the world's population?
3}Might that commodity arguable be the true medium of exchange and inflationary indicator?"

Hughes reminds us of gold's central place on the world's financial stage, where it has always been. Too many observers on this site manifest a typical pop consciousness; namely, to be focused solely on the immediate condition. Show some scope gentlemen. Gold has been down ( obviously ) , but gold is showing some resiliency and grit ( pun intended ) . It is down bit hardly out for the count. If, as some of you claim, CB's and paper conspiritors fear gold so much, then we can hardly dismiss it as a "relic." And, in fact, one can catelogue a growing interest in the yellow metal, as was evident today when a senior analysis at Merrill Lynch recommended precious metals. I am not interested in socialism or the far right, sirs. I get enough ideology from my feminist and marxist colleagues. Let's focus on gold analysis, shall we?

LGB

Unfortunately, I have not had the time to read all the posts from 1.16.98 forward. As I am semi- retired but still working six to seven days a week buying & selling PMs & Rare coins.

Since you are being cussed and discussed tonight I thought I would toss a compliment to you for your 1.16.98 13:56 & 13:34 posts. Very well said!

This morning I ask this group three questions and low & behold no one answered.
Didnt know if it was because 1 ) I am a woman, 2 ) They didnt understand or 3 ) It was beyond their thinking ability.

I will pose these questions directly to you and maybe you will follow my thoughts
And please be candid with your response.

Here goes

1 ) Which commodities, that are actively traded worldwide, are equated in US $'s per unit of trade?

2 ) Which one of these commodities is used daily, in one form or another, by at least 80% of the world's population?

3 ) Might that commodity arguably be the true medium of exchange and inflationary indicator?


Take careBarb

This is a good deal for Trizec and IMO for Munk because they menaing Barrick don't buy the shares which are overpriced relative to the recent market for ABX. Also a done deal for that many sharres would not be done at this high of a price but certainly closer to the recent lows. Alos if it was known that Trizec was shopping those shares the price of ABX shopuld have gone down not up recently IMO. My vote is that ABX will see lower lows before it's over. Why but ABX for twice book value when there companies out there selling for less than their cash in the bank?

What gave it away was that it was not a sale at all it was a "BOUGHT DEAL" on installments!!! No need to make any calls anywhere!!!
The fact is the anti Gold propaganda machine would like all to believe these shares are and will be coming on for sale into the markets, to depress GOLD, as I originally suggested to you, when in fact said shares have been already been "BOUGHT".
I am not suggesting all will go to insiders but you can bet said shares will
be in very "strong hands" who are in the know!!!

raise some cash by selling non peripheral ( to them ) assets. If you read
the news release, Trizec has contracted to buy $ 2.1 Billion worth of real
estate since January 1997. That is a lot of real estate in anyone's
language. I still think that the deal will be done to pension funds in Canada and Europe ( maybe even to George Soros, eh ? ) . Those ABX
shares could probbaly be placed with a dozen telephone calls .
What you have to look at here, is the end result for Trizec. When they
get through with this, they are "out of the gold busines" except for
the remaining 28 million shares ( which are pledged to some bank somewhere else ) and they are almost a pure real estate company with some VERY large real estate assets. Read the CEO's coments
carefully.

To all and sundry,

I may be simplifying matters re: the debate as to what this sale of ABX
shares means. My understanding is that Trizec Hahn is selling its
stake in ABX [Barrick] due to its underperforming the other assets in their goodies basket and thereby dragging performance down. Did I miss something here?

Mo in To
ps. at least I got the name of the gold company right this time!!!

Mike Sheller - - I have stated here in the past that should total upheaval occur, that the basic necessities of life would be at least as appropriate to have on hand than metals. But metals should still allow trade to occur rather than having barter amongst various goods and services. I.E.; If I want a few loaves of bread, am I going to trade a cow for it? I don't think so. But a bit of silver should be equitably suitable. The person who takes the silver for the loaves will 'trade' them for some flour and milk. Easier than trading a cow, I'm sure! Given that most people will have no 'basic necessities' on hand to trade with, they will undoubtably go without. Even IF they have silver coinage on hand, they might have a leg up on the situation. Everones home can't be a warehouse for everything and storekeepers WILL want to continue to trade, though perhaps not for 'paper'. To thereby pick the society back up, trade through metals will be found to be the most equitable and the easiest and surest extant method available. Afterall, what else is there?
An IOU from someone you don't know? We will ALL have found what those are worth!

You have an interesting view of this deal. I don't know though considering that the concensus is that gold will trade between 250- 330 this year. Is it possible that Trizec knows more about ABX than the others? Isn't this a form of insider trading? I was under the impression that ABX and Trizec have some commonalities? Isn't it interesting that ABX announces that they are going to buy back their shares and a company IMO that is close to them is selling? What do you make of that?

Wednesday January 21 1998

Brokerages come under close watch
Provisional legislators and financial professionals believe more small brokers are on the brink of collapse and have successfully lobbied the
Government to step up its monitoring of the situation.

SFC liquidates arms of CAP Group
The Securities and Futures Commission ( SFC ) yesterday took further action to limit the damage to clients of CA Pacific Securities by putting the
brokerage into liquidation.
http://www.scmp.com/news/business/topbiz.idc


Moody's backtracks on European
exposure to Asia
Moody's Investors Service yesterday appeared to
step back from a much- criticised decision to review
several European banks believed to have been hit
by the Asian financial markets crisis.

Fred: I suspect those companies striving to hike gold output at these absurd prices are doing so because they are heavily in debt and desperately seeking to avert bankruptcy. As I have said before, most gold mining companies are pathetically weak financially and a massive industry shake out and consolidation is long overdue. We need an industry dominated by firms that can cut output when prices are depressed without risking failure. The more bankruptcies, mine closures, and mergers that occur in the months ahead, the stronger will be the inevitable massive rebound in gold and gold shares.

LGB: Right Again! Too much conspiracy talk here. Gold did indeed plunge because of bad fundamentals and will revive when the fundamentals improve. That said, heavy CB selling and lending did make a bad situation worse. I doubt bullion would have dropped under $300 without this CB attack.

Securities and Nesbitt Inc, want to pay $740 million for those shares ?

If women, or kitcoites, want to be taken seriously they should not bleat they are ignored because they are women, or socialists, or right- wingers, or victims of plots to keep them off this site. My god, one of the most fundamental fallacies of philosophic discourse is the so- called "ignoratione elenchi" or argument by diversion. I paid you a compliment, madam, because you said something cogent, not because you were or were not "a woman!"

Voyeur Professor..
Wave levels must be right on...thank you for reading...

My argumant primarily is that if ABX was worht more than 26 dollars why wouldn't Trizec hold onto it and sell it later. 10 X 30m = 300m. If ABX is worth 20 more, you get the point. I did read the news release and still wonder what's between the lines.

I don't know how many shares Trizec has outstanding but it is probably huge. If it's a billion shares, their capitalisation went up by a billion dollars and Trizec will probably have a higher multiple because they are now "mostly" out of the gold business.And they get $740 million . Makes sense to me.

Voyeur Professor..
Had not read your 19:37 when I wrote my 19:40.
I thank you for the compliment so very much.

To consider the overall global credit crisis, don't forget Africa. 235 billion dollars is a LOT of money and the likelihood of repayment from African countries is miniscule at any point in the future. Add to your concerns the kind of arguments being offered by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The point here is not the moral issue ( it's one we'll all look at differently ) but, rather, the cumulative mountains of uncollectible debt in the world.

ADDIS ABABA, Ethiopia ( PANA ) - The Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, Tuesday urged Western nations and such institutions as the World Bank to write off Africa's crushing debt, currently estimated at some 235 billion U.S. dollars.

He said it was immoral to let millions wallow and die in object poverty when money that could have been used to save them was used by their indebted governments to pay interest on debts.

In an address to the diplomatic community in Addis Ababa, Carey likened Africa's debt burden to a new form of slavery.

He pointed out that the extent of the chains of indebtedness was contributing to the overall problems of Africa and the sufferings of her people simply cannot be overestimated.

Citing historians and recent data from UN Agencies, the cleric said while an estimated 24 million people were enslaved in the course of the Atlantic trade, 21 million children would die before the year 2000, unless the debt crisis is resolved.

In his speech titled, Chains Around Africa: Crisis or Hope for the New Millennium, Carey said Western nations have the moral orbligation to solve the crisis induced by the huge debt, because of their colonial legacy which create many problems that did not previously existed.

.....more follows ( http://www.africanews.org )

Au contraire, this is an great deal at about US$ 18 for millions of shares!!
a set price!! on installments!!! Watch what happens to ABX when shorts are sqeezed!!!

My point to this whole discussion which I am now repeating for the 4th
time is that the POWERS that be have taken what amounts to a
private placement, sale of ABX shares a "DONE DEAL"and are disinforming the general public by giving the perception that ABX shares are not worth holding, thus Gold is not worth holding, since 28 million
shares of ABX are overhanging the open market awaiting to be sold!!!

The article speaks for itself this is a "BOUGHT DEAL"

Barb - - That's funny! I know what you're asking. You could be talking either oil or grains. Since crude oil itself is worthless to any individual, that means it must be refined into a higher quality product. Unfortunately, it and grains tend to oxidize and rot. They are meant to be used up quite quickly, thereby negating their use as a STORE of value. Nope, those diminish in value? PS, how BIG is YOUR warehouse? Well, for this stuff, bigger will not help and smaller won't do you much good! Boy oh boy, it sure goes to show how much some people just HATE metals! Totally amazing!

Again to all out there,

One othere thought on Peter Munk's recent moves vis a vis ABX stocks
and the TZH share sale: let us all remember that it was Monsieur
Monk who was slinking around Indonesia not too long ago trying to
steal what was then thought to be a fabulous gold find in Busang, by
fair means or foul. He was not acting to "maximize shareholder value" then any more than he is now. He is out for PROFIT and personal aggrandizement. Curious how the stock has a run up and then this huge
sale is announced?

Mo in To

You are currently gazing at a futuristic slot machine. This is the year 2003 and you don't have to leave the house to engage in the monstrously exciting and dangerous sport of "bet it all baby...and then some." Each minute of these days, you will receive, via your slot, downloadings of pertinent and non- pertinent information relevant or irrelevant to investments that you may wish to gamble your worth and more throughout the six- hour daily frenzy.
Your job is to make the call, push the buttons and pull the lever. The slot will access the New Vegas Stock Exchange. Your bet will be placed, funds will be electronically removed from an electronic account in an electronic bank located in a cyber city. You're in...now let's see how you fare.
World events are reported each second to you by your slot. Electronic representations, indiscernable as real or cyber, will also illustrate pertinent events and players to you. Your competitors also receive, and in many cases create, all this information...plus a little more. The cyber edge is theirs, you see. They, your competitors, are the Houses of Economic Evil. They have created the game and their programs conduct the game...they are the "Feared Program Traders".
The Program Traders' computers have been able to expand the game to previously unimaginable proportion. You see, the New Vegas exchange has the ability to process 400 millions trades each hour. Each of the top four Evil Houses currently house 180 trillion non- dollars ( US/ECU/ACU basket ) at any single second. This number fluctuates up to 3% from second to second...5.4 trillion.

The program traders' average in/out time in a single equity issue ( bet ) is now 3.4 minutes. The average sell/buy spread signal is 12 cents. Their average position in a selected issue is 550,000 shares. Average gain/loss per trade ( bet ) is $65,000 non- dollars. Each Evil House averages 15 million trades per hour, 90 million trades ( bets ) per trading ( betting ) day.

The trading programs which are utilized by your home slot were designed by divisions of the Evil Houses. These programs are mandated and required to play the New Vegas Game.

Welcome! You may now turn on your slot and try to beat the Evil Houses. GOOD TRADING ( BETTING ) !

Share- Related Items
Market Capitalization
$3.61B
Shares Outstanding
152.6M
Float
109.9M
Trizec Hahn Corporation
NYSE : TZH


Address:
181 Bay Street, Suite 3900,
Toronto
Ontario M5J 2T3, Canada
Phone:
( 416 ) 361- 7200
Fax:
( 416 ) 361- 7201
Industry:
Real Estate Operations
Sector:
Services
Employees:
5,500
Officers:
P. Munk, Chmn./CEO
D. Bock, Vice Chmn.
G.C. Wilkins, Pres./COO
R.B. Wickham, Sr. VP- Fin./Treas.
R.J. Steets, Exec. VP/Counsel
G.W. Sullivan, Exec. VP/CFO
S.L. Diamond, VP/Secy.

You said it better than me? Go Leafs!

MO in TO: I saw the sale comming but I didn't expect the sale at such low prices. I mean, Peter Munk ( PM ) has said he would sell his stake in Barrick last year!! So he forwarned us. I guess he needs the money for his real estate dealings. I read the sale this way, PM knows much money will be made in ABX, but he believes more money can be made buying more skyscrapers.

Spock, thanks for your answer.

Karlito, on the other hand, never answered.

I am a moderate goldbug, and I recognize that that
paper currencies will not die - for the simple reason
that it is not suitable to carry bags with gold instead
of wallets.

Here is my last post on Karlito:

I'll tell, Spock, you when I got really angry with Karlito -

it was when he stated that confiscation of gold

was good for those who had their gold confiscated - they

kind of benefited from it...they should be grateful...


Nice to hear such things from "intelligent" man?

I hope you understand that any confiscation of such kind
is VERY BAD in nature...., etc.

Now, should I tell you why I called Karlito Pussy Communist?

He even didn't try to say that he is not!!!

There is also such thing as Freedom od Speech.
People have right to talk and expess their opinions.
If they do not like opinions, they RESPOND or walk away.

I hate Nazis, but I can listen and then tell them
what I think about them, I don't like to hear bad words about
Jews, but I can understand why people can say these words.
I do not care about words. If Karlito is "killed" by words,
because he is so "intelligent" that he can't handle it,
he only proved to me that he is shlimazel and bullsh*ter.

I do not care about words.However, when I see real gun
pointed in my direction, I will fire my own w/o saying
a word.

Done with Karlito.

You make my point! Munk is both Trizec and ABX! He is probably
getting ready to announce big deals in Trizec, run that stock up and sell
while someone ? insider is accumulating ABX at these low prices.

Remember the fundamental rule of Investing.

"BUY LOW, SELL HIGH"

The recently referred to comments of the very reverend Reserve Bank Pres. Perry's ( or was it Pary's ) remarks assuring us of the very minimal - low risk of deflation .... not HERE... NOT in the good ole USA.....It all reminds me of Greenspan, Clinton & Sec. of Tresury chief rumple- stilts- kin Rubin Robinhood ...assuring us back in late Oct. that the temporary 'ripples' from Asia where merely a mere tempest in teapot..and not to worry....it all reminds me of the captains & first mates on the Titanic at the early part of this century - oh what a harbinger that disaster- rooted in prideful men - - reminds us of things to come, repeating an old lesson, once again - - as they assured the passengers to go back to sleep - it was, after all, nothing but a mere scratch, on the hull of that thick- steel- hullled, indominitable Titanic - - after all it WAS the TITANIC ! - the greatest ship ever created by the hands of man - - the mightiest of the mighty - the Titanic !..the most majestic ship of the world - she was the leader, the envy, and the model for the whole sea- fairing world... un- sinkable, invincible... Surely THAT became, by hindsight, a shuddering, sobering lesson in the follies of man- kind rooted in hubris, arrogance, false- pride, denial, and wishful- thinking.

Surely there is a lesson here, for our good ole USA, the most insular, self- absorbed people of the world. There is a direct parallel to the current 'Titanic' that is - a world economy springing more & more leeks of hemorrhaging red- ink - as currency crises spread like wild- fire, one after the other, spreading like scattering sparks FROM SHIP OF STATE TO SHIP OF STAE, as wild- fires out of control, starting new fires and anew and anew and again - then anew too, in yet other nations farther & farther away - - in nations near & far ... all sinking in an sea of red ink that has beem brewing & bubbling up, and now all over the place, bubbling up, and over and out of control breaking thru the 40 yr. dam of export- bloated bankers - - institutions of "control' ruled by management teams who know no god but greed, expert in the field of exploitation - natural resources or peoplr, it treslly msde o no difference, orchestrating a creit- bloated world fiancial- structure expertly managed by the blind leading the blimd - - Thus, not a nation the world over, has escaped this contagion of avarice and lust for power & control. None of us will escape this burm, and this drowns, the economic crisi, snd the crisi of survival for our very earth will see to that, and ultimatley bring us to our knees,a and to reality, aescape - a non- sequtir. escape the aproaching burn, one way; but there an on- rushin deluge traps us anon.

How can we escape?! Wea are the enemy; he is us.

Escape this pain? Escape this burn? - We are all party and perdition to its ruin. Al have eagerly participated in this easy money/credit scheme - a party of a 40 yr., float a card of crdit, no make it fivr; morgage that house, then do it again, and rfiasnace the house, get the eqyuity ut of it quit.

A joy- ride fueled on artifical credit created electronically behind locked doors, and upon paper money created by legalized counterfeiting presses, running day & nite, at weekly rates passing out billions, by the billions billions. Most of those experts orchestrated that work eat slip & use toilet psper just k like you z7 zi. Why can thet counterfeit trillions, zi get a way with it, while starving peasont woman abandoned on an frigid allley behind the zkrem;in'd spsrkline window, would endure a week a more, on one of this feeble, crumbled dollars, & she might even get asahke of asalt andsliver butter on it, by a generous paserby, who truely looked, for a fleeting momeny, deep into here eye. - -

But the counterfeits keep spinning and whinning an wining, the losing game.an all out of it out of thin - - out of thin air and out of control ..... - - doesn't sound like living within the discipline & and sane order of a sound, disciplined, open- books banking system,& monetary laws ..at all. So the flooding, and the burning, and the sinking bankruptcies flourish, floundering and sleep into the icy dream.

And the collapse of currencies spread their relentless cancer regardingless of political boundaries, and defaulting credit, as it crumbles and mushroms til itrumbles down upon the secret halls of horrified lenders and their destitue clients. Soon the sunami flood of cheapening into evenb cheap, as the devaluing imports come crashing, awashing awash arriving up & upon our once pristine & proper shores. As they wash in on the tides of strange fortnes, with their beggar- bargain prices for sale. Will we compete with those numbers and desperate, hungry vakues and needs back home, were there are painfillled hungry mouths to fee; orwe erecct trade barriers, and sing the sacred songs of our favorite patriotic songs, and erect protectionism to save our souls.......and pass the caviar & sip the mint- julips; for we are here, and they are far....... ans away with you

so will the treatened lamp of liberty flicker even more precariously

thretened not by the feble, fainting candle of the humble upon their knees reaching out to us upon our shore's lamp of economic and political liberty ...

will we alow by default or false pride and shameful retreat

strike us down

in cold integrity

when king riminds it;s all

it is now

only now

that we can act

and live fee

by his prescription alone, we can face & triump the cold & harsh & cruel of economic winter with the triumphant of living from th heart

triumphant in liberty

for whether the the lamp of liberty may flounder, for generations to come......there are the humble, faithful, quiet, enduring titans among us carrying the eternal torch...such that any a flood that might consume the the best of men and their enterprises; out all this grist for the will the milenium is stirring for a new world of monetary, banking & crdit integrity that will insure, and the millenium will insist on a ground- floor rebuilding of an internationasl money and banking - monetary - sytem .... that all peoples of the world- over, can trust, and receive compensation in, from the most thorough janitor, to the efficient basketweaver, to the shoe- cobbler, to the re- forester, to the teacher, to the eager child, to the risking entrpreneur, to the dedicated worker, to the burgeoning pysicist, to the wizzardly computer nerd.....all will be using, accepting, trusting, exchanging a single money unit, an international unit of exchasnge and store of value that command the equal and universal acceptance and ready usage of all humankind...and that can be controllled in it value, by anyone, anywhere.

Sooner or later, the competive devaluations, threatenng trade barriers, isolationism in the wings will force the economic world to the brink of making so hard, overdue choices.

The longer we wait, deny, postpone, rationalize....the greater will be the pain and suffering, in the transition into the new milllenium.

the Titanic is floundering no matter the assurances of Fed. Board Governors, Trasury Secretaries, and politicians galore...

do you think THEY will insist on providing for the women & children first ?!

Trizec have just purchased the real estate assets of BCE,they need the cash to pay the purchase/also still have 1/2 the ABX shares on loan to cover a previous loan.Munk is no fool, he understand that GOVERNMENTS will go back to their good old habits of inflating themselves out of debt.Do not beleive all this bull ABOUT INFLATION BEING BEATEN.With inflation ( 6 to 12 months ) back. Munk ( the man with the golden touch he did not do it overnight, the man has vision. ) win on both levels higher real estate and price of gold.Ladies/Gents patience investing is a long term project,you loose some you win some.

Welcome back Bro!!!!

I personally believe the voluntary relinquising of PERSONAL gold by Korean citizens to the gubmnt was at least as voluntary is the relinquishing by U.S. citizens of their hard earned fiat paper to the i.r.s. every payday. Then they are permitted to GIVE IT in april.
That's when they put their stamp of approval on the voluntary parting with their provender.
Few there be who will challenge the schoolyard bullies, particularly when there are several and the few are outnumbered!
Voluntary indeed!! ( :+^ ) }[ ( the ol' tongue in cheek thingy- 'member? )

Trizec - Shares issued: 130,125,050 Exchanges: MT
+$1.35 roughly $170 mil gain

Barrick - Shares issued: 372,817,172 Exchanges: MT
- $1.35 roughly $503 mil loss

Spock - - Re your 17:56; Actually, debt- based paper currency IS an excellent sign that you do not anymore live in freedom. Now one might very easily term that new condition to be socialism, nazism, communism, or 'demon cracy'. Doesn't really matter 'cause the bottom line is that your money is now debauched and becoming less valuable by the day. Also means that you are now in debt to someone, perhaps even unwillingly. But truly irrevocably! And when the state assumes that it can debauch the nations currency in this way, it really matters little what else they do, or don't do because the basis of havoc has been laid. And havoc leads to governmental control at all layers. A rose by any other name is still a rose. So is a turd!

CAPE BRETON.
HEAVY SNOWFALL AND WIND WARNINGS IN EFFECT FOR TONIGHT AND WEDNESDAY.
TONIGHT..FLURRIES. PERIODS OF SNOW DEVELOPING GIVING 5 TO 10 CM.
WIND NORTHEASTERLY 50 KM/H WITH GUSTS TO 80 KM/H. LOW NEAR MINUS 4.
WEDNESDAY..SNOW AND BLOWING SNOW CHANGING TO FLURRIES IN THE LATE
EVENING. FURTHER ACCUMULATIONS 10 TO 20 CM. WINDS NORTHERLY 60 WITH
GUSTS TO 90 KM/H. HIGHS NEAR ZERO.
THURSDAY..VARIABLE CLOUDINESS WITH A FEW FLURRIES. MORNING LOWS NEAR
MINUS 9. HIGHS NEAR MINUS 6.
PROBABILITY OF PRECIPITATION IN PERCENT 100 TONIGHT. 100 WEDNESDAY.
70 THURSDAY.

It was Lenin who said the best way to conquer a country was to debauch the currency.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/980120/international/stories/russia_12.html

TONIGH COOL LOW 50 S WEDNESDAY PARTLY CLOUDY MID 70 S WINDS SW 10/20MPH
LIFE IS A BITCH.ONE OF WORST JANUARY ON RECORD WET WET WET,AT LEAST YOU DO HAVE TO SHOVELL IT.

TED,
MORNING!
This morning the indonesia rupiah plunged heavily!!So as the whole regions currencies!THAILAND seem on the edge too!
GOLD PRICE in local currencies shot to the sky!NO TIME TO COVER!
GONE.........!BYE

BREAKING STORIES:

Dr Habibie as Indonesian VP will kill currency
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980121/world/world1.htm

Intriguing moves in HK property moves - Time to buy??
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980121/world/world2.html

Bargain hunt on in Korea
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980121/market/markets3.html

IN REVIEW:

Japan: the $164bn collapse
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980120/business/business1.html

Soros rumoured to clean up in Korea
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980120/world/world2.html

Falling metals spike Normandy
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980120/invest/invest5.html

Is Asia qualifying for 'blood in the streets' time?
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980120/invest/ivsuper.html

Cross rate gives lie to crisis
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980120/market/markets4.html

RADICAL ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM FIRES UP
http://www.jvim.com/IntelligenceBriefing/jan1998/islamic.html

Russian Update
http://www.jvim.com/IntelligenceBriefing/jan1998/russia.html

A New Economic Order is coming
http://www.jvim.com/IntelligenceBriefing/jan1998/cover.html

Airlines cannot fix Y2K Bug in time ( Jan 15th article )
http://www.jvim.com/cgi- bin/update.cgi

Behind Hashimoto's Remark on Dumping U.S. Treasuries
http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/240506.html

Japanese Communist Party gaining ground with jaded voters
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980117/world/world9.html

Deflation: Strategies to cope with it
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980117/smart/smart1.html

China still haunted by devaluation
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980117/market/markets4.html

IMF - Now for the backlash
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980117/perspective/perspective1.html

Why the world is watching China
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980117/perspective/perspective2.html

US to convene more financial plotting & scheming
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980116/world/world2.html

Crisis may eat Asian chips
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980116/inform/inform1.html

Agricultural exports to South Korea grind to a halt
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980116/pageone/pageone11.html

Profits of arms manufacturers will far due to Asian cancellations
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980116/world/world2.html

Results indicate Gold oversold
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980116/business/business8.html

Asian blowout feared for European car makers
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980115/world/world3.html

Asia a worry for German banks
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980114/banking/banking5.html

IMF blames sloppy banking for current crisis
http://www.theage.com.au:80/daily/980112/bus/bus5.html

Central Europe suffers emerging- market flu
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980113/world/world3.html

Delinking HK dollar a different ball game
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980112/world/world3.html

Taiwan prepares for yuan's fall by June - - just in case
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980110/world/world3.html

Doubts over use of RBAs TWI in measuring balance of Trade with Asia
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980110/news/news1.html

HOW EXOTIC DERIVATIVES TOOK DOWN KOREA'S ECONOMY
http://nypostonline.com/business/2439.htm

MAHATHIR'S ECONOMIC THUNDERBOLT OUT OF THE BLUE
http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/onenation/mahat.html

After 15 years the bulls are looking for a break
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971230/invest/ivsuper.html

Reproducing the 1930s
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/971227/world/world1.html

Mid Level Officials lobbying for Chinese Devaluation!
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971219/world/wwashington.html

BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/blizard.htm

Digdeep - - Lots of things Lenin said that are great for destroying a society. Can't really think of one that ISN'T being used here by the 'elected', and others.

Steves specially edited: NEWS VIA AUSTRALIA

BREAKING STORIES:

Dr Habibie as Indonesian VP will kill currency
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980121/world/world1.html

forum?
To me and according to the principles which many people espouse, it is foolish and inane to HATE any person. It is far more productive and realistic, as well as more mature to have decided dislike for BEHAVIOR exhibited by individuals.
As some say: Love the sinner . Hate ( if you must ) the sin ( behavior ) ,

Most of the posts I read from either direction, that of the well propagandized to the nearly ignorant on this forum seem to speak mainly to the behavior. So if one wishes to waste oneself "hating" the behavior of others, let 'em do it! No skin off my nose. Or yours either!
Vitriol and rhetoric are usually laughable, unless some insecure individual happens to take them ( vitriol and rhetoric ) seriously and develop a "hatred" for them. This tends to color the thinking of the one doing the "hating".
It shows in the behavior.
These posts are BEHAVIOR!
A word to the wise! ( :+ )

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980120/indonesia__1.html

JIN: Thanks for the update younger brother.........Sounds like you don't think all the 'bad news' in Asia is over...eh ( I don't either! )

I feel yer pain dude....................

By the end of the trading day, Asia will have gold down by $3.50/oz.
You heard it from me first.

Golden Boy, you forgot to convert the share offering price from Canadian into American dollars. Therefore, all your preceding arguments are invalid.

Trizec Hahn is offering its Barrick shares at approx. $16.00 ( U.S. ) in the market.

but I thought they were purely rhetorical...
"1} Which commodities, that are actively traded worldwide, are equated in US #'s per unit of trade?
2}Which one of these commodities is used daily, in one form or another, by at least 80% of the world's
population?
3}Might that commodity arguable be the true medium of exchange and inflationary indicator?"

But I might add a few other questions, also rhetorical or not as the reader chooses. Since no one knows my gender I will not assume gender is the reason if no one chooses to answer them, Barb. And since I am the slowest and stupidest poster here I won't assume they are stumped by them. ;- )

a ) Which commodities' prices are shamelessly SUPPORTED by governments and what are the circumstances whereby the support might prove ineffectual?
b ) Which ones are SUPPRESSED by the same governments, causing artificial low prices and under what circumstances will the prices normalize?
c ) Which ones would go up or down with an oil embargo, another mideast war, a tropical drought, a hurricane, an ice storm, peace and prosperity?
d ) Which ones are/are not storable? Which ones have worldwide price gradients?
e ) How can one profit/avoid loss by knowing/predicting/observing the anwers?

Might find this site to be interesting:

http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/pubs/ifdp/1997/582/default.htm

http://www.gold- eagle.com/gold_digest_98/markus011998.html )

SOROS KNOWS, BUT WON'T TELL... About Gold & the Dollar

Stating the obvious, Rothchild and Soros business in "making money" .... in more ways than one.

In all probability, "they" have made A LOT selling gold short, effectively selling gold to themselves. "They" are most likely now buying and cornering the physical gold market with the profits of selling gold short, and when they decide on a time the gold price will move upwards.

At this point in time in Australia, the Aussie gold price just keeps the mining industry ticking over, but junior exploration companies may expect to be "absorbed" into larger entities. There is also a move into Australia by British/South African mining companies, notably Rio Tinto, Anglo American and Gencor. There is also "talk" of Gencor and Homestake forming a new consortium.

If you want to "play ball" you have got to have a level playing field. This particularly applies to doing future business with the Japanese and Chinese. There are two choices - fiat Dollar or gold. If "things" continue as they are, with US trade deficits and national debt, the US will end up no more than a consuming sink.

Gold is required as the pivot of international trade to achieve a future balance, and it is this issue that Soros is now focused via a new Central Bank for the Central Banks. Soros plays the double edged sword, he wins both ways.

EXTRACTS..........

"there is never enough information available to confirm or refute either
theories."

"Is Soros ( and the Rothschilds ) a goldbug ( that is, they believe that
gold must again be part of a standard for a global monetary system to
provide stability and resiliency to the system ) or are they part of a
fraternity of merchant and central banker alchemists who, since the
inception of the U.S. Federal Reserve in 1913 ( on Jekyll Island with
J.P. Morgan and the Warburgs, as architects ) , can maintain a fiat
currency system, without gold? Are they not capable of engineering a new
closed/homogenous system, a single world monetary unit upon the ashes of
what undoubtedly will be the demise of the current system of a
heterogeneous fiat currency system that all will point to and agree was
unsustainable?"

It doesn't matter how you figure it, IMO Peter Munk knows what he's doing and it doesn't make sense that on one hand he says Barrick is going to buy back shares and at the same time he's selling shares of ABX form another of his companies. Maybe you can it explain it to me but I don't get it. I understand why there are so many shorts out there. If the stock's book value is 7.50 US what is it's value in todays market? I don't think 16 US or 26 C. If I was interested in investing in ABX I'd wait awhile and see how this thing shakes out.

You may say all the wonderful compliments you want about Mr. Skunk...but the fact is that he is sending one major perception to the world...real estate is great and gold sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care if it's a bought deal or not...the fact is that Mr. Skunk is contradicting his own previously stated belief that ABX shares are undervalued and therefore, ABX would proceed to buyback its own shares.

If that is in fact true, then Mr. Skunk ( Barrick ) should be buying each and every share of the Trizec Hahn sale of ABX stock. By placing the shares in the hands of third parties, it is a de facto dilution of the existent outstanding stock.

I agree with you 100% . It is time for a shake out. The mining companies are partly to blame for this bear market. Do you think that maybe they are in on the conspiracy?

VANCOUVER, Jan. 20, /CNW/ - Placer Dome Inc. announces that its operating
company in Venezuela, Minera Las Cristinas C.A. ( MINCA ) ( PDG 70% , CVG 30% ) has
decided to suspend mine construction activity at the Las Cristinas gold
property in Venezuela until the Supreme Court of Venezuela ratifies its
decision of July 15, 1997 declaring inadmissable the challenge by Inversora
Mael, C.A. to MINCA's gold mining rights.

http://www.newswire.ca/cgi- bin/codes.cgi?CODE= MNG& TYPE= IND


CORRECTED - Toronto stocks gain on investor confidence

In Toronto story headlined ``Toronto stocks gain on investor confidence'' please read in second last paragraph ``TrizecHahn Corp ( ( TZH.TO ) - news ) rose...after the Toronto- based real estate firm said it
would sell almost half its stake in Barrick Gold Corp [NYSE:ABX - news]''. ( Corrects size of stake
sale ) .

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980120/toronto_st_2.html

Late last week there was lotsa discussion regarding the reporting of gold sales to the IRS. I believe it was Tyler Rose and Barb who started the discussion since Tyler was looking for physical delivery and Barb was in the business of performing the said transactions.

It was later posted that purchases were not reportable under $5 or $10 K BUT sales were reportable. NOW, I just read an advert from JEFFERSON Coin & Bullion ( a James U. Blanchard III company ) in which is stated:

"... under current tax law and IRS regulation interpretations, THERE ARE NO BROKER REPORTING REQUIREMENTS WHATSOEVER WHEN YOU BUY OR SELL SWISS HELVETIA GOLD PIECES. ..."


What's up now ????

ALSO - Is this guy the proprietor of "Blanchard & Co." ?

223 - - And a couple more for the road:
WHY in hell would one want to make a non- storable/keepable commodity into money? What's the basis to that rational? Is that rational any better than what we have now with paper?

If ABX is going to buy back shares, than why not buy them as low as you can. The sale helps to lower the price and shake weak hands out of the game. Soon they may buy twice as much as was sold by todays announcement. Who knows?

If I understand you correctly, then I categorically agree with you that Skunk's actions do not make one scintilla of sense ( for Barrick stockholders ) .

If I were a Barrick stockholder ( which, Thank God, I am not ) , then I would be up in arms and infuriated with Skunk's actions. As a stockholder in other gold companies, I am incensed beyond rage that a so- called proponent of gold ( and unfortunately, a major influence over the entire gold mining industry in general ) can manipulate the stock market in such an overtly slimy manner...on behalf of his favorite, most beloved shareholders... namely the Trizec- Hahn shareholders.

http://www.newswire.ca/releases/January1998/20/c4612.html

Certainly what we all could use on this site is some true wisdom. But not only on the site - from our "leaders". The challenge gets more difficult for all of us when "leadership" is not wise. Solomon ( not always wise himself ) offered some words of wisdom very applicable to the issues at hand in two successive verses of the book of Proverbs:

"Good sense is far more valuable than gold or precious jewels."

"It is risky to make loans to strangers."

One might conclude that if our leaders had the good sense not to make "loans to strangers" their good sense would have obviated the need for gold. But....such is not the case.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. The deal doesn't make sense to me. I'm surprised the shares didn't take a bigger hit today.

I would suggest it is more accurate that it is the perception of CB gold sales that has driven the price down. From the data I have seen, there have been many other years ( including recently ) when CB sales have been much higher, the demand lower, yet the price of gold has increased.

I have a hard time believing that _actual gold sales have effected the slide in gold's price .... it doesn't add up.

Goodnight all.

It is time for gold mining shareholders to get a message across to the manipulative, incompetent executives who continue to earn mega- salaries while destroying the share values of the companies they run.

Mr. Skunk's actions today are in his interests and the interests of shareholders of Trizec- Hahn...they are NOT in the interests of Barrick shareholders nor of any other gold mining shareholders whose companies suffered depressed share prices today as a result of Skunk's deceit and manipulations.

SELL YOUR BARRICK STOCK IMMEDIATELY AND INVEST IT IN GOLD MINING COMPANIES THAT FOLLOW A PRO- GOLD AGENDA...NOT A PRO- REAL ESTATE AGENDA!!!

Oris, Mike Sheller, Fred@Vienna- Got your comments on Bugweiezer, cheap gin, Ouzo, thanks. Mention of Ouzo brought back special memories. As for beer, my corner convenience market has Red Wolf Ale, red colored like Kruggerands, its pretty good for cheap stuff. I like it at room temperature.

Aurator- Thanks again for the search engines.

LBG- Good gun nuts maybe, but I dont detect any psycho extremeist gun whacko nuts here.

Spock- FYI You can get a set of the whole Fawlty Tower series at large discount from individual tapes. CBS FOX Video/BBC Video #5714

Grant- Still lurking?

Ersel- Hey dude!

223- No, Im the slowest.

Barb Hughes- I was about to make a guess but chickened out. I could not support my wild guess. I can't believe nobody is taking a shot.

All- There is so much good stuff going on here, Ill try to keep my moufh shut and settle back into lurking and learning. Glad to find freedom of expression giving rise to such lively intercourse at Kitco.

PS- When I first started my business, I fell into the bad habit of leaving out the articles a and the, and otherwise over- simplifying correspondence to my asian vendor. I was trying to be clear; my partner astutely advised that I was actually being insulting.

PPS- . Thanks Bart.

There does need to be more accountibility of execs of public companies for there actions. Shareholder value has been eroded by billions upon billions of dollars in the last year. Look at the scams that have been perpetratd upon the public from Bre- x to Golden Rule to Cartaway....
How about the writedowns and bankrupsies. Where and when is it going to end. I think there needs to be changes in legislation to make these people who are hired to run these companies more accountable for both what they say and what they do.

Hi, Sam.

Red Wolf is good stuff. Also try Wicked's Pilzner.

May be you know, may be not, but if you are in machines/tools
business, try McMaster Carr Catalog. They got nearly
everything you may need. Delivery is fast ( 24 hours ) and
reliable. If you need their phone # to order catalog,
let me know. They are in Chicago.

I am actually thinking of buying ABX. With a board of directors and advisors like ( Brian Mulrooney, George Bush, Howard Baker, Helmut Pohl and Vernon Jordon ) . They might just want it all for themselves, even though they are not known for GREED . We never need to buy a novel!

Wet Gold -

There are no reporting requirements for the purchase of bullion coins, period. Only Gold Maple Leafs, Kruggerrands, 90% silver coins, and 40% clad Kennedy halves, and all forms of bullion ( bars ) are reportable on the sell back. That's it. No other reporting requirements at all, regardless of quantity. There are zero reporting requirements when you buy the coins, only when you sell back. As I have said, reportability is not a function of the purchase but as to whether the particular commodity has ever traded in the US futures markets. If they have, they are reportable, if there has never been a futures contract on a coin, it is non reportable. That's it, the entire reportability of precious metals.

All -

Somebody save this and repost as necessary. Every time I post the reporting requirements, a flurry of what ifs and what abouts surface. If there are any questions, reread the preceding paragraph, all your answers will be found there. Consider the above paragraph the nirvana of reportability.

10% of ABX stock is moving from Trizec ( strong ) to retail investors ( weak ) . Is this good for share value or a negative? I agree with someone's earlier post ABX will buy back there shares but not at these prices. Wait til it reaches $10 per share when the weak investors who need to pay their installment receipts sell there ABX instead.

OK, what is the telephone number? I have a Grainger warehouse near my house, but they are expensive and they don't have everything. TIA

We will talk more about vodka when Kitco is not so busy.

ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!! Read my 21.22 post

Nothing to get excited about ! All along the watchtower ....The monkey don't like abx.....BUT his pocket is full of Banana republics and the big Canadian one.....All along the watchtower.

Your 21:21 post is coming out NOT FOUND

Munk made his money from the Barrick Golden Goose. Can he really be taking it to the slaughter. I would hope not. Certainly the funds who own Abx ( and all Canadian Index funds do ) must be a little upset if he is cashing out. ABX did drop a dollar and change in Can. when all the rest of the Golds were flat.

But I have diffculty believing that he is that short- sighted, maybe there is a play that we mere investors don't appreciate.

Of course if he really wanted to help turn around gold, instaed of buying back shares he would unwind his mulit- year hedge , lock in a good profit and sell production back on the market.

PLEASE, for the benefit of all these fine people on this forum,
before they to out & get their writ in a tinger- - - - EXPLAIN
to them about LAWS reguarding the FORM of payment & regulations
thereof.......HUMMMMMMMMMM FORM 8300
Best Regards...Barb

conundrum.

Paper fills the bill for all of them in some esoteric or ordinary form or other. So does wheat.
To # 1. nearly all commodities
#2. You tell me! ( :+^ ) }[
#3. Paper as well as.....????? Rice is nice too!!

Here is the site once again, please read and post your comments!!!!

http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/pubs/ifdp/1997/582/default.htm

If I kner what the problem is I'd help. I can't help!

ANYONE,
Would be greatful if anyone can show me the trading calendars in comex/nymex and the AMERICA holidays schedule.
Thanks!

rgds,jin ( cssam@pl.jaring.my )

Peter Munk was able to get control of Barrick. He sold ahead at 410 I'm told. He started Trizac- Hahn which has become a real money maker. Now Trizack- Hahn is selling half of the Barrick shares that it holds and Barrick has just announced a program to buy back its own shares. Mr Munk has recently demonstrated the ability to see where the price is going. Where do you think Munk thinks it is going now?

Selby, you have the order mixed up...first, he announced the ABX share
buyback...then after the stock had strengthened, he announced the Trizec- Hahn sale.

From such manipulation, it is apparent he is much more optimistic about real estate than gold.

"I recognize that that paper currencies will not die - for the simple reason that it is not suitable to carry bags with gold instead
of wallets."

The argument that specie, honest money, is not practical deserves closer examination. First, you would not need bags of metal for your persoanl expenses. Second, for transactions in larger amounts, you can write a check redeemable on demand for the metal in your account. You could even have electronic funds transfer of the metal in your account. There is nothing inconvenient or impractical about having honest, solid metal coinss for exchange and account as the building block for enterprise. Concession on this point to the enemies of metal is tantamount to surrender of your children's freedom, if not your own.

Go read Armstrong's history of money in America and my comments. We have been down this road before on this continent. Paper for currency will not die on its own; it must be killed by spreading knowledge and reasoned argument among the people. We are each either an enemy of paper or an enemy of the people.

I am astonished at your reaction to Monks move with ABX stock. I own
a considerable amount of ABX stock and I'm not about to sell it over
todays announcement. I can name a few of the stocks I own whose
management teams have made decisions I haven't agreed with but that is something share holders have to live with.

None of us have the pleasure of knowing what is going through any company CEO's mind when corporate decisions are made. As an investor
I, and you, have to assume that the officers of a company are doing what is best for the company, especially one the size of ABX. You can assume what you want but I'll trust the man with my money ( which went in at $16.

If he doesnt believe few dew. Thing of major bottoms/ there are no all knowing nomes. Cheers Ted and Disney!!! When Wall St says sell stks ( 1988 ) BUY!!! Thanks

WHY DO YOU ALL THINK HE IS RIGHT. PERHAPS IT IS THE TYPE OF DISBELIEF AND CAPITULATION Y'ALL BEEN LOOKIN' Fer.
Aye TED AND NELSON M. DISNEY!!

He hobknobs with George Bush and Brian Mulroney...he's got himself one of the most notable real estate companies in North America...it is now in his interests to promote the notion that everything is wonderful with respect to the global economic situation...why would he ever want to suggest that there are problems in the economic status quo...something he must do in order to promote gold's value??

He is no longer a gold- bug...rather he is a member of the affluent real estate establishment...the sooner he sells his gold holdings, the happier he will be!!

Why is TH selling at a much lower price than acquisition??

I can see where your coming from but.....

Don't Worry ! I will stick up for abx and Gold.Now put You're hands up - - - - close you're eyes- - - - now touch you're nose away to find doctor strangelove and the Golden Eye.

G'nite~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TO:
Voyeur Professor
Eldorado
Sam
a.j. - - - - hint to the riddle can be found in the above URL
& all that are interrested

Take care...Barb

I don't think legislation is much of a solution for anything. Government intervention typically results in increased corruption and the constipation of the system in which it interferes. Think Munk's not making the shareholders money now? Wait till, in your scenario, the government is breathing every exec's neck, then, boy we'll all be rich!

No, I would have to concur with farfel's 21:46, we need more investor awareness and action. If an investor doesn't like the actions of the company's management, he can ( and probably should ) dump his shares. This is what all these who are whining about the whole thing should do, if they own ABX they should sell and put their money where their mouths are.

On the other hand, if you are suggesting that the current legislation gives some players of the market an injust advantage, then you are right, we need change. I don't know what kind of legislation you would suggest, so maybe my comments are ill- aimed. I can only answer as I understand the matter, but I feel strongly that calls for increased legislation should be answered.

Well gold bugs it looks like the game is over. Someone go tell the miners whats in store for them.

G'Day Steve,

I am told via the grape vine that a series of highly significant assay results are to be published for the Munni Munni silver project in a day or two.

Apparently the silver grade will average 3% , with significant gold values, and HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT Rhodium. No Rhodium values were previously reported.

The shares and options of both companies are on the move !! I'm in there.

Barb -

As seems to be your purpose, again your post is laced with hostility. I don't get it. Regarding form of payment, are you referring to cash transactions? I think everybody here is aware that any cash transaction of any sort of 10,000 or more is reported to the IRS and DEA. Perhaps it may be better said that your transaction is recorded and analyzed for patterns. Most of my clients wire funds ( which are recorded and assigned a federal reference number ) or send a personal check. Bank transactions by and large are not scrutinized in this fashion. Cash transactions are, however. Some try to bypass reportability by doing cash transactions for just under 10K. The problem with this ploy is that the purchaser must constantly find new companies to buy from. Even a couple of 5K transactions within a couple weeks will usually trigger reporting by most reputable companies. My firm does not accept cash. We accept metal, or funds from a bank. Don't know what form 8300 is, the administrative staff handles all the forms, IRAs, account agreements, statements, and W9s. I never see 'em. I hate forms. In the future, try a friendlier tone, its easy.

It's not over yet! Just wait who will be laughing in the END!!!

Does anybody remember the first Blues Brothers album and a song called "Rubber Biscuits"? You know the one where Dan Akroyd is singing "heeeey bidddda bummm bidda boddaa heeeeeee? Okay, now that you're all with me, I remember John Belushi had a line that went like this: "What did I say to piss you off this time. BaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyBEEEEEEEEEEE?"

Don't know why that crossed my mind, but I feel real special about sharing.

Mozel, I am a "classic man".

All I want is to have money backed by gold in a Central
Bank of the country where I live. 100% backing would be nice,
but even 50% will make me very happy. 20% looks like a limit.

I'm against paper money printed at will of a government
without control, that's it.

Return to the pure gold ( silver ) coins as exclusive means
of exchange is unrealistic. Also don't forget about credit
cards, which play a tremendous role of ecomony stimulation.

If you think I'm not honest, it's fine with me.

farfel: that's the order I was talking about. Don't gold mining shares usually go up when the price of gold goes up? Just what do you think Munk has manipulated- - the global price of gold?

Will get thephone # first thing tomorrow morning.
I'm at home, catalog is at work.
If you need cheap ammo for plinking, please ask,
I'll recommend you where to get it.

Lucky you, you probably enjoy good weather right now...

I WANT TO SEE GREEN GRASS!!!

So, to answer your question...gold mining shares do not necessarily go up when the price of gold goes up.

Just to refresh your memory...CB'S have all the gold in the world for the next decade. In order for gold producer's to see a rise in their stock price, then they must convince the market that somehow they, too, will share in the gold price augmentation...not simply the CB's.

When gold producers are dumping both gold and company stock into a weak market, then it makes it difficult to convince said market that the shares will rise hand in hand with the gold price rise.

Date: Tue Jan 20 1998 22:02
RJ ( ..... Reportability ..... ) ID#411259:
Wet Gold -


There are no reporting requirements for the purchase of bullion coins, period. Only Gold Maple Leafs, Kruggerrands, 90% silver coins, and 40% clad Kennedy halves, and all forms of bullion ( bars ) are reportable on the sell back. That's it. No other reporting requirements at all, regardless of quantity. There are zero reporting requirements when you buy the coins, only when you sell back. As I have said, reportability is not a function of the purchase but as to whether the particular commodity has ever traded in the US futures markets. If they have, they are reportable, if there has never been a futures contract on a coin, it is non reportable. That's it, the entire reportability of precious metals.


All -


Somebody save this and repost as necessary. Every time I post the reporting requirements, a flurry of what ifs and what abouts surface. If there are any questions, reread the preceding paragraph, all your answers will be found there. Consider the above paragraph the nirvana of reportability.


RJ...
The above was what I responded to.
By the way you forgot to mention in your response that cashiers checks & money orders are treated as cash.. Also related transactions within a 12mo. calendar period, no matter how small maybe reportable. The Form 8300 is the cash transaction reporting form. The Form 1099 is the form brokers must fill out when brokering precious metals.
Regards....Barb

Ziva,

Somehow I have missed it, but am interested to hear a brief ( or more if you like ) relisting of the reasons you believe gold will rise above $600 this year.

The Preacher

I AM CONSULTING WITH MY ATTORNEYS FIRST THING IN THE
MORNING. I WILL NOT BE DENIED...

The moral of the story....never try and throw your old bommerang away !

You make a fine point on worldwide traded commodity, etc. We are in agreement that Gold has a worldwide "store of value" function ( if purcahsed at the right time under the right economic conditions at the right price ) .

Farfel: I believe that gold is up since the buy back was announced. Unloading a looser like Barrick is late but if I was a holder of Trizac- Hahn I would sitting back and thanking Munk that he got rid of that looser and drag on my stock. As a holder of Barrick I'm happy that the company is buying back its shares. I think this is an example of Munk taking advantage of circumstances as they present themselves. I think this is why Barrick will be around and Pegasus and Echo Bay are done for. Good management vs bad management

Jin
Use this site for trading info.
http://router.minot.com/~bohl/
Go to:
Expiration Dates for Futures and Options ( From LFG )
You will have to look around to find what you want but it is their.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ps
Anyone watching Korea.
Something has happened that they don't like.
Our OZ market has been thoroughly spooked today.
It has put in a very strong reversal.
Something is about to happen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.2/Advice.html
Advice on Asia and metals - esp gold.

A possible reason is, that more than anyone else, Peter Monk knows how the stock will perform in a rising gold market. Poorly, I would guess. No one really knows the extent of their forward sales. Maybe they have sold more than they can produce.

Zolas Investment Advice for 1998
by Zola
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.2/Advice.html

But this one dimensional notion of freedom- - freedom from taxes- - is suspect because it is often a masquerade for something else. I value freedom because it increases the return to my personal portfolio. One doesnt really have to value individual liberty to want more wealth or a higher return. Not that there is anything wrong with wanting more wealth or a better life- - we heartily approve of the sentiment. But many of these same tax freedom advocates, if shown a way to increase their personal wealth by increasing someone elses taxes, will readily do so. Thats why you find few true freedom advocates on Wall Street at, say, an investment bank like Salomon. The millions of dollars to be made by dealing in U.S. debt outweighs all other concerns. Hey man, its a living.

But for those traders and investors, good Randians and libertarians or not, who are looking for free advice, here it is. Invest at your own risk. If things go wrong, dont come crying to me: Im not interested in the collapse of your illusions. If things go right, send me a check.

Not Enough Blood

Lets look at Southeast Asia. Many currencies are down 50 percent. In U.S. dollar terms, some stock markets are down 90 percent from their peaks. The one exception is Hong Kong. Hong Kong is only down 50 percent. The peg of the Hong Kong dollar to the U.S. dollar has held. Hong Kong will not bottom until the exchange rate of HK$ 7.8 to U.S. $1 plunges to say HK$ 10 to US $1. Alternatively, if the peg is not broken, the Hong Kong stock market will continue its fall in local currency terms. Either way the U.S. dollar value of the Hong Kong market is going down a good bit further. Go short or stay short Hong Kong if you are a dollar investor. Or short the Hong Kong dollar.

All the Southeast Asian countries have reacted to the recent crisis in traditional fashion: central banks have been pumping out money like mad. This comes about when the central government takes over debt obligations of banks and companies. This debt is purchased in the form of central bank credit, which increases the money supply. This is a principal reason Southeast Asian currencies have fallen so much: the consequences of all this monetary expansion have already been factored into the exchange rate. One exception to this is Japan. Short the yen. The yen is currently Yen 129 to US $1. It will probably go to 150.

Okay, faux freedom advocates. You want to make money off someone elses taxes ( or retrieve some of yours ) ? Buy Korea. The IMF and the U.S. government are going to bail the country out. Things will get worse, economically, in Korea. But assets will probably not get cheaper. Figure out the specifics for yourself.

Short Indonesia if you can figure out a way to do so. Indonesia as a country is somewhat like what Bre- X Minerals was as a stock: an illusion wrapped inside a mirage, sitting on quicksand. The current ruling oligarchy, from Suharto on down, is history, and so is the country. Sure, there are a lot of cheap minerals in Indonesia, but they are not going to be available as the country falls into civil war. The newly revised Indonesian government plan for stability is based on a figure of 5000 rupiahs to U.S. $1. That assumes, of course, that there will be a government and there will be a rupiah. And 5000? Well, thats a number with three zeroes. Think in terms of four.

Short the Peoples Republic of China if you can figure out a way to do so. China has thus far escaped the turmoil enjoyed by its neighbors. Asia will not bottom until you see a serious devaluation of the yuan. And probably an outbreak of civil war. The aging Communist hierarchy in Beijing is as corrupt and as incompetent as the Communist hierarchy in the Soviet Union prior to its collapse. As Chinese exports run into a brick wall, and unemployment rises, the crackdown on internal dissent will become increasingly shrill, and so will the reaction.

Raw Materials Are Good

Buy most natural resources. Why is this, when Southeast Asia has made everything cheap? Well, thats just it. Everything is already cheap. Its not going to get much cheaper.

Buy silver, platinum, and palladium. Dont buy gold. The problem with gold is central banks have tons and tons of it, and theyll be selling it for ready cash to deal with their economic problems. Or, if you must buy gold, dont expect more than a 50 dollar bounce. Some central banks I know of are writing so many call options on their gold supply that gold will probably go back up- - say to $340/ounce- - for a time, if only so the market can burn these same central banks.

Buy crude oil. Dont worry about the Iraqi oil supply. As U.S. President Clinton gets into increasing political trouble, hell find an excuse to go to war with Saddam Hussein. But whether he does or not, oil has gotten too cheap, reserves are over- estimated, and the supply has become inelastic. Buy the non- ferrous metals at the London Metals Exchange.

Unpatriotic Thoughts

Short U.S. brokerage stocks. The U.S. stock market has gone nowhere for six months. People are frustrated. The endless running up and down, churning, while going nowhere, has suckered investors long enough. The volume of trading will fall, and that means brokerage firm profits will fall.

Short U.S. T- bonds. The balanced budget is a joke. It is based on projected revenues, such as capital gains taxes, that will not materialize. Alan Greenspan mentioned the D word, Deflation. Bonds have had a nice run up on the thought. And true, there is little price inflation. But there is wage pressure. Natural resource prices appear to be bottoming. And bonds have enjoyed the consequence of unexpectedly large government tax revenues, a mechanism set to reverse during the course of this year.

Short U.S. stock averages any time the Dow approaches 8000.

Get ready to buy most of Latin America except for Mexico. The U.S. bailed out Mexico to make the country safe for the drug dealers. Now the drug dealers are in charge, and Mexican government credibility, never very high, has fallen to zero. Meanwhile, all the alleged investment benefits from Nafta will disappear as Nafta comes under increasing attack in the U.S. Short Mexico. But learn Spanish. Latin America is the immediate future. Take your money out of U.S. stocks and put it in Treasury bills. If the U.S. market cracks, Latin America stock markets will fall in sympathy, more than they already have. Then buy Latin America.

Short Italian bonds. Maybe Italy will be admitted to the euro club and maybe it wont. Maybe the euro will happen and maybe it wont. But the supposed blessings of German discipline in Italy are already priced in, and the reality will be something less than that.

Political Futures

Short Bill Clinton. He may be the Comeback Kid, but there aint no more comeback left. Hes as much history as Suharto. Buy James Hoffa. Short the Kennedys- - they havent bottomed yet. Expect John Glenn to die in space.

Short Boris Yeltsin. Short Tony Blair- - his career is about to go into the dumper with the U.K. stock market. Short Bibi Netanyahu. Hes the only stumble- bum politician who, outside his own country, is a bigger object of mirth than Bill Clinton. Buy Assad: hes the Middle Easts perennial Comeback Kid. Go long Turkey against Greece: the Turks are better fighters.

Socially Conscious Investing

But you havent mentioned the name of any specific stock! you complain. Thats right. I dont believe in such practices. Either people take responsibility for themselves or they dont.

But for socially conscious investors, here are a couple of ideas.

Short AIG. AIG is an insurance company which is one of the biggest money launderers in the world. And Maurice Greenberg is a junky for government favors. Once you have your short position established, call up FinCEN and ask why there is no investigation of AIGs reinsurance practices. Ask your congressperson about OPIC favors.

Short Cylink. Just to let them know what you think about a company that acts as a shill for the National Security Agency.

Invest in digital cash. Somebodys got to make the world safe for privacy.