Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:01 - ID#206358)
JTF...thanks for the message!
Yes,the most we concern is the riots and wars around the region!The racial killings spread so fast these weeks!Many minority shops been rob and destroyed.Some richies stay away from the country.And the illegal who work around singapore,malaysia,thailand,borneo just stay in spot,afraid to go home!Now,the economy slumped,jobless,the crimes shoot up!ohhh!
Now ,the focus turn to SINGAPORE now!The heart of the south east asia.Since the country invest alot of billions in INDONESIA,now dued to the devalueation of the rupiahs,many bank,debts,companies in big troubles now!I think the bank report will shown around march...!
Heard that the DOW JONES MARKET closed for three days?..any news!

Try to update to BART'KITCO ( small contributions ) .Correct my grammar and hope not misunderstand my broken grammar...huh...huh..

time to have my plain lunch...rice/!just for stomakkk,no more luxury!

happy trading

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:02 - ID#31868)
Thanks for the lead. I will check it out.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:04 - ID#31868)
A. Goose
Thanks for the leads as well.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:10 - ID#401460)

Check out the new product, even if Apple goes down and I doubt that, the product will live. Maybe even at The Evil Empire. You better keep track of the news. Windows 98 is done and the OS is wrapped around the Internet software, which is exactly what the Government doesn't want.

Microsoft is being sued by 11 states, Japan has raided them and is investigating them etc.

Apple, Oracle, IBM, and Motorolla are partners. One of them will buy Netscape. IBM's new chip - Heh! 1000

JAVA is a big play in this whole story also.

Jobs I think modified Clarris for the new OS sales. Apple will concentrate on the Software. Clarris is still in business. There are a lot of things going on, including a delayed meeting which portends of something big?

There are more Mac OSs then Windows 95, Gates has fragmented his market. In trying to rip off the buyer none of his stuff is compatible.

Why by a piece of obsolete junk like a Wintel machine. DOS will not last. The battle is not over. And in a few months may not be even relevant with the new MAC/NeXT OS - IMHO

But what do I know, I sold Apple for a heck of a profit and bought a bunch of Gold Miners. The Apple stock I still have is doing better than Gold!

Tolerant1 do yourself a favor check out the facts, the G3 is wicked and in a few months with
OS 8 and Rhapsody, nothing will come close.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:25 - ID#210235)
@WetGold and fundaMETAList
Thanks for the URL's. Looks like plenty of information out there to digest.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:27 - ID#224149)
Yeeeeeeeeee s!!!!!!!
Go Canada Go !!!!!!!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:27 - ID#401460)
G-Nutz Blah Blah
"Bandwidth", It is a rather flat night for gold. No big economic crash, no war, and no presidential BJ's.

But we have you and your pontifical magnificent posts to enlighten us.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:28 - ID#341214)
Prometheus: The Grid
Prometheus: I just caught your note to WetGold about the grid. Check out "Power"-ful Prognostications at the Westergaard site. It's listed under Friday on the home page. I think Gary North's site has a power grid related category too.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:34 - ID#330175) great
Canada 1 USA 0 ( after one period )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:36 - ID#224149)
What a great Game
Ted---Only in Canada You Say """"

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:45 - ID#25295)
money on problem, great. might still want to check dell ( warehouse ) they sell leased machines for sizable discount. not state of the art but not very old. everything I received was reconditioned and looked or was new.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 00:49 - ID#372344)
@ South Africa, "Dawn of 2nd Revolution" Winnie Mandela.....As I Suggested 3 months ago....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:03 - ID#401460)
Goal Canada
2 - 0 Canada
Should have been a penalty.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:06 - ID#31868)
Thanks for the tip, I will look into that as well. Good idea. I am not sure, but I think I want to get the latest model though. But a solid lead. Thanks.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:07 - ID#34883)
my 0.02
A commodity - if the price goes up - the reward for discovery of supply and alternatives does too, as long as a price control ( guaranteed shortage ) or a subsidy ( guaranteed glut ) does not get in the way. It's no different for oil. It's not a zero-sum game.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:09 - ID#372344)
@ UK Plans stradegy fro Iraq Bio-Chem terrorist attack....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:10 - ID#372344)
@ stradegy fro=strategy for

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:13 - ID#401460)

Below is the text of some e-mail that I have received, I thought you might be interested.
This statement says it all.

"Time to install MacOS8
from scratch to fully working and configured,
on a machine that is no longer supported by the manufacturer,
and never supported by Apple:
about two hours."

"Time to install WindozeNT
from scratch to partially configured,
on a machine that is supported by the hardware and software manufacturers,
by someone who works at the software manufacturer
and has done this a few hundred times:
about 10 hours and counting..."


(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:15 - ID#401460)
Goal Canada

US is getting their butts beat bad. Bad coverage, they are asleep at the goal.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:15 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmm, that does not look like fun. I certainly do not want headaches, that is for sure. Thanks for the info once again.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:19 - ID#401460)
Hang Seng
Hong Kong
Hang Seng

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:19 - ID#255151)
Golden Insults

Ol' Will Shakespeare knew how to insult. Some of my favorites--Thou wayward shard-borne pumpion! "Thou venomed dread-bolted fustilarian!" "Thou bawdy pottle-deep maggot pie!" "Thou roguish whoreson clack-dish!" "Show your sheep-biting face and be hanged an hour!" You can find many more here-- Go Gold!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:20 - ID#372344)
@ China & EU Two rivals of US$ in talks over WTO and the Euro....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:21 - ID#330175)
Canada 3 USA ZIP(end of second period)---April gold up 1.20 @301.60
Get Roy

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:24 - ID#330175)
Gotcha bro~~~~~~go gold + HOCKEY!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:24 - ID#401460)
Auric Golden Insults

Just what we need! I have to ck this out.
This will definitely improve Kitco. Insults with class.



(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:26 - ID#224149)
The Right Stuff
And Who's the greatest team you ever ---------

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:30 - ID#330175)
Edmonton Oilers

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:36 - ID#330175)
Thanks for the update!!..........P.S. I like rice + vegetables with hot pepper and soy sauce...Looks like the Aussie dollar is being hurt on renewed 'Asia worries' tonight...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:39 - ID#393224)
Auric--thou bawdy bat-fowling barnacle!!!
I love it!!

Oh, and 'go gold', Bart.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:42 - ID#330175)
I think I hear the 'fat lady' singin~~~~

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:45 - ID#393224)

Aussie dollar down means gold UP ( in A$ ) .Who wants to visit the US anyway. Come to Oz, mate. You'll get more bang for your buck!!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:52 - ID#393224)
G'day JIN.
Your grammar makes a lot more sense than most of the English-speaking posters on this site, mate. Are people selling their gold in your country to pay other debts?? Do they deal mostly in gold jewellery, coins, or bars??? Chinese gold bars?? Give us some education on gold trading where you live. Cheers, Nick

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:52 - ID#330175)
Nick@C........................and goin down under
Maybe I will mate!.....Like Jin said,Singapore ain't lookin too good t'night ( down 4.02% )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:54 - ID#225273)
Denton & PAASF
Denton, tx,

The answer is yes, but today there is one catch. PAASF's biggest project for growth is in Russia. It seems to me like there is a chance the U.S. and Russia will get cross-eyed at each other over Iraq. Would you want to own the stock of a company whose next great new project was in a country "at war" with the U.S. and Canada?

Not me. I admit this scenario is a long shot. But if the U.S. and Russia cross-swords, you could see happen to PAASF what happened to the big copper/cobalt companies doing business in Zaire when civil war broke out. Those stocks went right down the shoot.

Absent these problems, PAASF is one of the premier silver stocks.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:54 - ID#401460)
Goal USA
They are comin back 5mins.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 01:59 - ID#22956)
It is trading sideways and will break. I can see it, feel it, almost taste it......mmmmmmm good. Can't get direction, want to say up but I know better. That's O.K. though, some traders are prepared for either direction.....ohmy. This week will have MOVEMENT.

...or next..........or next...the charts don't lie......eventually.... ( chartz-schmartz ) ........... ( doh! ) ...go gold. the chartzzzzzzzzzzzz.... ( while dreaming ) ....


oh yeah....that silver consolidation looks promising.....but this is all stuff everyone knows, EH?


(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:02 - ID#225273)

That's a great story from the lips of Ms. Mandela. SA is careening down a one-way street to re-Africanization. There's no stopping it now.

Has anyone noticed that the only Asian markets in the plus column tonight are in the places where a lot of killing and civil strife is taking place -- India and Indonesia? Oh well.

It's 2:10 AM in beautiful, downtown Hapeville, GA. Good-night, all.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:04 - ID#393224)
Thou ruttish sheep-biting puttock!! Where for art thou??

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:10 - ID#24135)
Preecher and tsakead- try reading before writing !
To All
Tsadeak, a dedicated South Africa hater, just posted
one of the most reassuring articles on South Africa Ive
ever seen. I assume he simply read the HEADLINE without
reading the article as he frequently does, then states
that this is what he said three months ago which is
WAS NOT. I notice that the Preacher Man, who also
failed Reading Comprehension chimed in ......

Here we have what conventional wisdom would say is
the most revolutionary voice in South Africa, speaking
at the FINANCE WEEK ( the voice of capitalism ) breakfast
club, talking about a resurgence of UBUNTU and a
dissapearance of Western mindsets within "50 or 60" years !

"The transformation process may take 50 or 60
years to complete and would be enjoyed by our
great grand children"

Winnie then went on with a very pro capitalism
statement saying that .....

"The success of SA's democracy depended on a
vibrant economy. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said
the forming of linkages between white and black
business was very encouraging, but more needs to
be done. 15% of the population cannot continue
to dominate the other 85%."

She even questioned affirmative action principles ..

"The "rent-a-black" practices of recent times must
come to a stop, she added."

And lauded the success of some Black capitalistic

"The success of African business was the best
protector of white business in SA. Companies
such as New Africa Investments, Real Africa,
Black like Me, Thebe and Herdbuoys were
examples of what blacks could achieve. "

Nigel Bruce, Finance Week Editor, questioned the
50/60 year time horizon for Ubuntu ( a VERY frequently
used African term that means whatever you want it to mean )
as follows...

"History, he said, had shown that business is one
institution which readily adapts to change. The
lesson of South East Asia however, was that
where there is a clash between the global market
and domestic politicians, the global market
generally wins."

In Winnie's speech, their is no mention of socialism,
wealth distribution, or real revolution of any kind.
If Mr Tazdaek is looking for Winnie to lead his
beloved revolution in RSA, he's looking in the wrong
Moreover, when he selectively posts his anti RSA
propaganda, he should read the articals with more
comprehension to be sure they better serve his purpose.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:13 - ID#224149)
And again
Winners few YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeS Canada

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:19 - ID#255151)
Nick Of C

Yeah, where is that dankish fen-sucked hugger-mugger?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:19 - ID#224149)
I Love my Country
Do You ?

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:22 - ID#24135)
Oris . What do you think ...
For Oris
There was a letter to the Sunday Times Editor
this weekend ...
" I am assured that over the Last TWO YEARS every
platinum bar exported from Russia bears stamp
"Product of Russian Republic" rather than " Product of
The implication was that all platinum was either from
fresh production or a very low inventory.
The letter was silent on palladium.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:30 - ID#206358)
NICK!Your e mail,please!
Please send e mail to below:CSSAMTRUE@HOTMAIL.COM

Just briftly,now a days,,,everyone want to sell...price are so CHEAP compared to the spot price!METALS looks useless interm of EMERGENCY,but best investment teories!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:37 - ID#224149)
Justice is time
Auric----Should I see Light no---noIt Kills--- The Argument ----So What ----Right !!

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:41 - ID#24135)
Really Preecherman... what a comment
The Preecher .. A georgia cracker .. this explains everything.
Do you really think there is ANY chance of war between the
US and Russia .. REALLY .. come on .. ANY CHANCE .. OF course
not .. NO CHANCE IS NO CHANCE..There is life outside Georgia.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:51 - ID#268284)
I know I love you guys, because, when I come home from watching the hockey game ( best ever ) , to find out what's going on, you're all talking about the hockey game!!


( Even if our currency pales a little... )

go gold

"p.s. have you bought your mutual funds today??"

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:55 - ID#224149)
And who is God
War ----My heart bleeds ---Never and Never Should this be some Answer in our Thoughts or ideas. Get away and find some ---some---some---Truth.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 02:57 - ID#28585)
Americans have become so convinced that Big Money, Big Media, and Big Government continuously manipulate them....that now Americans refuse to believe any bad news.

They are convinced that almost all bad news is "concocted" and used against frighten them into surrendering their stocks and bonds at fire sale prices. Americans are categorically certain that bad news is simply manufactured by powerful vested interests in order to swindle them out of their hard earned mutual fund profits.

As a result, in the face of every conceivable piece of bad news being thrown their way, Americans continue to increase their investments in the stock and bond markets without so much as a tremor of doubt or fear.

This attitude will likely continue until a left field event surfaces on their doorstep...something so terrifying and first-hand that they simply cannot pooh-pooh the problem or explain it away on the basis of the usual cynical analyses.

The following article appears in today's L.A. Times. It verifies and supports my thesis.
Sunday, February 15, 1998

Obsessed With the 'Man Behind the Curtain'

Since Watergate, the American public is no longer interested in suspending disbelief. It only wants confirmation of disbelief.

MAGANSETT, N.Y.--In "Wag the Dog," director Barry Levinson's satire on the unholy alliance between politicians and image-makers, a presidential spin doctor arranges for an unctuous Hollywood producer to stage a war for the press to help the president out of a jam. The press, of course, doesn't know the war is a production confected for its benefit. It blithely takes the images provided and sends them on to us. It's a pretty good scheme. After all, the Gulf War wasn't much more than a video game sandwiched between briefing sessions conducted by generals from central casting. The only trouble is that the producer can't quite smother his pride at the stunt he has pulled off. "I want the credit!" he bawls.

Where the film goes wrong is in thinking that denying him credit is essential to preserving the scheme when we know that, in this day and age, revealing the manipulations is more likely to prompt wondrous respect for the accomplishment, maybe even raise the president's approval ratings. That's because, after long relying on a suspension of disbelief to enjoy so many of the fruits of our culture, we now find ourselves in an entirely different state of mind. We seem to get more enjoyment from a confirmation of disbelief--an understanding that whatever we see is not real but has been created for us.

Not so long ago, when President Franklin D. Roosevelt delivered a speech, it was just assumed the words were his. Only insiders knew that Judge Samuel I. Rosenman or playwright Robert Sherwood had helped craft these speeches, and neither of them was about to demand credit. More, I doubt if anyone much cared that the president had a little help. Today, we not only know that the president and presidential aspirants don't write their own speeches, we sometimes know which speech writers contributed which passages to an address.

That's because, like the producer in "Wag the Dog," everyone is demanding credit. Peggy Noonan, who wrote some of President Ronald Reagan's and President George Bush's more memorable lines ( "Read my lips: No new taxes," was hers ) , is now a celebrity for having been a presidential ghostwriter, and novelist Mark Helprin was so brazen about having authored some of Bob Dole's more felicitous lines in the '96 election campaign that you almost thought Helprin was running for office and Dole was just his flunky. In short, the whole idea isn't to convey that a politician has penned his words but to affirm he couldn't have.

Nor does it stop at speeches. By now we are all sick of the whole idea of spin doctoring--the process by which political advisors descend on the media to tell them how they should be interpreting an event. But the raison d'etre of spin doctoring should be its subtlety. If you reveal how baldly you are trying to spin the response to an event, you become just another partisan, hectoring the press for your candidate.

The beauty of good spin doctoring is you let the allegedly disinterested media take your lines and make the case for you. Or at least that would seem the logical approach. But in the age of the confirmation of disbelief, spin doctors, like Clinton advisor James Carville, seem only too happy to tell the press not only what to think but also to tell them that, in doing so, the spin doctors are spin doctoring. Indeed, Carville's old partner, Paul E. Begala, who has been serving as the president's point man in the Monica S. Lewinsky affair,
was the subject of a recent newspaper article about, of all things, how Begala is serving as the point man in the Lewinsky affair. And that is hardly the worst of it.

Dick Morris, President Bill Clinton's old strategist, wrote a book discussing his Machiavellian schemes for returning Clinton to the White House, as cynical a political exercise as one can imagine, but one that caused nary a flutter of reaction. Why, after living in ignorance about people like these for so long, is the public suddenly showing interest? The answer may lie in a national undertow of cynicism that first began to exert its pull with Watergate and has grown in force with each new revelation of chicanery. After Watergate, we know that politicians scheme. After Presidents Richard M. Nixon and Reagan, we know they have teams of speech writers patching together their addresses. We know that behind every decision, every policy, every press-conference answer, there is a web of strategizing to predict the effect and tailor the action accordingly. We know that nothing is really authentic, that it is all calculation.

Cynicism isn't ordinarily a heartening emotion, yet this cynicism, this confirmation of disbelief, is as satisfying in its own way as the suspension of disbelief was. The difference is the difference between the power of not succumbing and the power of succumbing. Deconstructing the statecraft of politics, or anything else for that matter, gives us the reassurance that no one is putting anything over on us. It makes us feel savvy. The world may be full of inauthenticity, but knowing it puts us in the loop, which provides some form of cold comfort. Whatever we are, we're not dupes.

Even though it is prevalent now in Washington, the confirmation of disbelief, like so much else in the culture, may owe a great deal to the capital of the suspension of disbelief: Hollywood. Not so long ago, Hollywood directors, like political advisors, were invisible hands who orchestrated the action without calling attention to the fact they were orchestrating it. Just as no one knew presidential speech writers, no one knew directors, unless it was Frank Capra, John Ford or, possibly, Howard Hawks. Frankly, the public didn't seem to care who made the movies. Until the '70s, the only director whose name was a household word was Alfred Hitchcock, and that's because Hitchcock was selling audiences his manipulation of them rather than, as most directors were, a constructed reality the audience was invited to enter.

But Hitchcock was a singular exception until Steven Spielberg arrived and helped set the whole confirmation of disbelief business in motion. Like so many others in his generation, Spielberg grew up in the 1950s going to the movies and, or so it was assumed by numerous profilers and biographers, falling under their spell--that is, suspending his disbelief. In short order he began making films of his own, at first, small student affairs, then bigger productions featuring neighborhood kids and then, while still in high school, an even bigger production with professional actors and sophisticated special effects.

As the saga goes, the movie lover thus became a lover of movie-making. By the time he made "Jaws," in 1975, Spielberg had transformed his almost tactile pleasure of filmmaking into popular art and immediately became the foremost of a group of directors, including George Lucas and Brian DePalma, whose movies were essentially paeans to their own moviegoing childhoods.

But what was easy to overlook is that the majority of Spielberg's films were not predicated on that old suspension of disbelief, the operative principle of the old movies he celebrated. His films were predicated on the confirmation of disbelief, that celebrated the filmmaker rather than the film. Spielberg's great discovery is that a skillful director could deflect attention to himself and thus supersede even the stars on the screen. That seems to be why he was so bewitched by the mechanics of special effects and why even now, when we watch "Jurassic Park" or "The Lost World," we marvel not at the dinosaurs themselves ( a suspension of disbelief ) but at the effects that made them possible ( a confirmation of disbelief ) . The first makes us think of the movie, the second of Spielberg. It is no knock on Spielberg's considerable gifts to regard his motive not as a love of the movies or of movie making as much as a love of celebrity. Nor is it a criticism to see his movies as a means to that end. In fact, it makes Spielberg something of a forerunner of a cultural shift. Spielberg recognized there were rewards in being acknowledged as the one who made the magic, and where he led, Noonan, Morris, Ed Rollins and a whole army of others have followed. If they couldn't be the ones on the screen, they could be the ones behind it, pulling the strings and then telling everyone about it. It was as if the Wizard of Oz had yanked down his own curtain to get himself a magazine profile.

It is understandable in our culture of celebrity why the string-pullers want to reveal themselves. What they get for doing so are all the benefits the people on the screen get: fame, wealth, sex. It is also understandable why the media enjoys lavishing attention on them. These folks open up a whole new area of celebrity at a time when the media need new celebrities to fill the insatiable demand. It's a bonus that the people who put the strategy in the president's campaign or the images on the movie screen make great stories, often better stories than those of the stars they direct.

But their gains have also been our loss. The suspension of disbelief was about willed innocence. We jettisoned our cynicism and indulged our naivete because we were rewarded for doing so by the experience we got, whether it was the experience of believing in a president's vision or of believing in the fantasies on screen. We knew we risked seeming foolish, but we allowed ourselves to be open and idealistic nonetheless. It was really a matter of trust. To ignore the machinery behind something was to trust the thing itself.
Now we know all about the machinery and can assert our superiority to it, but we have lost our innocence and our sense of trust. One might even say that, in this postmodern world where everything is fabricated, we have come to know too much for our own good--too much to enjoy the kind of illusions one may need to survive.

Everyone wants the credit, but we pay the bill.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 03:00 - ID#206358)
Read one very reliable source from hingkong news mentioned that,China market alive again!Dued to the rumours about the devalueation of RMB,The dragon man start to lost confidence abit!They change in higher rate in difference areas.In coarstline around shanghai,canton,shenchen,people change at u.s 1:9.20 rmb compare to lower rate at inner china us1:8.20-8.50 rmb!The official is about 2 yuans lower!
Many fate notes,black companies,aapeared on the markets recently!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 03:01 - ID#228262)
@Preacher (Answers to your questions)

ANOTHER speaks of things that strongly suggests he has unique information. His references to the BIS buying gold on the open market when it appeared gold would plunge below $280/oz seemed to me to be an attempt to assure outsiders,like us, that the gold market was not going to collapse. Sure enough gold did rebound to above $300/oz shortly afterwood. He could be genuine or he could represent some other agenda. Itis really hard to tell. A cataclysmic event is certainly possible at this time with all that is going on in the world. Such an event could spark investor interest in the PM's resulting in a sizeable price spike. What could happen absent the event is what the draw-downs of the physical PM's are suggesting. ONe day soon the market will conclude there just isn't enough PM inventories to meet contractual obligations. We would then see a rapid rise to a price that would make them available. With all this said it seems there is more risk in being out of PM's than being in them.-Engineer

(Mon Feb 16 1998 03:35 - ID#273227)
Apple - G3
HighRise 00:10 ( Just stopped in don't know why you're talking about the G3 ) - One of my co-workers just spent a week trying to upgrade his new Pentinum to NT. On Saturday - he went out and bought a G3. I stopped over to see it tonight - awesome! This thing flat out screams!! Win95 ran as fast on the virtualPC as it does on my dual-Pentinum. NT is a different story right now. Anyone who buys a PentinumII with that stupid Intel socket over this G3 is a fool!

BTW - my friend's new Pentinum now is running Win3.1.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 05:15 - ID#398105)
Add this to the GOLD and Precious Metal Prices.......

The Y2K BUG.................

Extracted from golden eagle...........

"Buy some "wealth insurance" today. I'm speaking of converting a
reasonable portion of your assets from intangibles to tangibles, like
gold and silver coins. Virtually every Y2K expert is in agreement that
gold coins are the perfect Y2K financial shelter to protect yourself
financially. Swiss America brokers are respected across the nation as
true professionals. They have a reputation for spending the necessary
time to educate their clients about protecting their assets by
diversification. That means shifting your paper and electronic assets
into hard assets personally held by you. We recommend placing a portion
of your assets into uncirculated gold and silver coins, and a portion
into higher quality rare U.S gold coins. To "Y2K-Proof" your portfolio
call ( 800 ) 289-2646 for specific portfolio recommendations. If the Y2K
damage is minimal, you'll never regret buying tangible assets because
they offer protection, privacy, and profit potential".

Now, how may people in the world have Bank Accounts..............chaos ?!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 05:41 - ID#358318)
Haggis__A: "Wealth Insurance"
If Kitco, Gol-Eagle, Swiss America and other purveyors of the precious were to get together and print full-page ads in major newspapers explaining the need for gold "insurance" against Y2K and financial disaster ( e.g. Asian Flu ) I wonder what this would do to gold demand, the POG, and the perception of gold as an investment...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 06:55 - ID#398105)
ASHANTI does a running from Cobar in New South Wales........

........and does not pay out AU$ 18 million in due monies to the workers ( superannuation, leave pay, salaries ) .

Bad, really bad...........

(Mon Feb 16 1998 07:01 - ID#398105) point just talking about it...........

GOLD and the Y2K BUG.

As part of the forthcoming Kitco subscription, may I suggest that a "wee' bit more is added on by Bart, and that he co-ordinate a publicity drive focused in national newspapers/television in New york, London, Tokyo, Hong Kong and elsewhere.........

I am sure that sponsor ship from "larger" groups could be forthcoming.

As a group we should get pro-active.........

No point just talking about it.........

any additional comments

(Mon Feb 16 1998 07:19 - ID#183109)
Randgold Articles.>

Top link lists at least 50 Randgold articles.

Whoever it was that was asking for info on S.A. shares, try these links, and use the search function for whatever company you're interested in....tons of good reading.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 07:22 - ID#398105)
a "wee" bit of light reading.............

(Mon Feb 16 1998 07:25 - ID#238295)
Spot gold now $298 in South Africa. JSE gold index down another 1.9%.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:07 - ID#330175)
Thankx for the pics---I'd send you some but am in the 'witness protection program'....Why the Sam-Hell are the damn markets closed today?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:18 - ID#330175)
For all you 'Royal Oak Mines Junkies'

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:19 - ID#26793)
Credit Suisse analyst sees two more years of deflation

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:24 - ID#26793)
IMF warns that Hong Kong is vulnerable to crisis

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:28 - ID#26793)
The main Asian problem is dysfunctional financial systems

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:32 - ID#426220)
SIX NEW ANALYTICAL REPORTS AT golden-eagle (sans the en)

World-acclaimed analysts in their particular areas of expertise:

Profit From Silver & Gold -- Mooney

Countdown To Chaos - Y2K

Canadian Petroleum Perspective -- Robb Moss

The Inger Letter Forecast

General Market View For February 1998 -- Wayne Crimi


See golden-eagle Hot-News Box at URL ( just delete the letters en in golden below ) :

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:32 - ID#26793)
Japanese corporate bankruptcies rise 18.8%

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:34 - ID#330175)
EB.......................Chuck(Wagon) Barkley is my----------------

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:37 - ID#26793)
Tokyo Dept. store sales down 5.6%, tenth consecutive monthly drop.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:45 - ID#398105)
This may explain.........................

why there may be a "DO" in the Middle East, and it may not stop there ?!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:45 - ID#376309)
My Two Cents
Spot Gold will break $280.00 before it breaks $320.00!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:54 - ID#93232)'s my two cents worth re: gold price.....
- -

Bully Beef
(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:55 - ID#259282)
I have missed great returns in my mutual funds because I have listened to Goldbugs for the last 8 months. I am a joke! Everyone else has made enormous returns and i'm in precious metals.I've waited for this correction and just when I thought "this is it" the Dow jones busts 8000.I'm getting anxious.Abandon ship or hold the course. When do I get to say "I told you so." Untill then I remain respectfully yours...Bully Beef.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:57 - ID#26793)
Hong Kong Chief Exec. expects recession; "it will restore HK competitiveness"

(Mon Feb 16 1998 08:59 - ID#224149)
Glenn Wake up!! Have you seen the Options ?
250,000,000,000 And rising ---No End to the SHEEP----Like the Bunny Battery----and then some ---Take a ride on the Reading ---If you pass -----Go------ collect ---

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:03 - ID#398105)
Bully Beef (GOLD)..........

I am a great believer that if you make your bed, you lie in it.

Why didn't you split your portfolio ?

You may have to continue eating "Bully Beef" for a while longer. Can't have Champagne and Cavier all the time ?

At this point in time, a great deal of research is require of precious metal the industry, take overs are the name of the game.

You have to be in it, to win it ?!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:13 - ID#93232)
@Bully Beef....Only the Lonely....
Roy Orbison. Don't jump ship now....we will be rescued...Is that land I see? A gull.... Go Goldgulls! Teddo, when do you sleep? ( On Tuesdays? )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:14 - ID#398105)
Yanks and Brits ............double sided sword ?

"The United States .... faces a credibility problem in the Arab
world, which criticises Washington for looking the other way even though
Israel -- like Iraq -- has an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction"...

So, when is the US going to "bomb" Tel Aviv ????

I'm getting confused here....... for a UN security policy, does it have to be approved by the UN security Council, or can it be vetoed ?

Looks the Yanks are a law unto themselves ?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:16 - ID#187218)
Bully Beef
I suggest that if you are looking for a guaranteed return ( maybe? ) you may consider CD's or MoneyMarket accounts. My brother-in-law, who has only seen the Bull, is in the Paper Market a whole 3 years and boy is he the expert; constantly telling me his returns ( I love it,,, HIS returns and not the manager of the fund ) and how he will be wealthy at this rate when he's 65 years old. He has no concept of how markets work OR DISCUSSING EVER MOVING FROM DOW PAPER.,,, He is a FOOL.

Am I saying that you will meet the same fate,,, NO. You have taken a great step in a long, hard journey by lurking on Kitco and becoming informed. You have a tremendous advantage over my FOOL brother-in-law,,, you're in the metal and should stay there and watch the finger pointing and "shoulda-coulda-woulda" folks fight amongst themselves.

Welcome Aboard!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:21 - ID#224149)
World Power
HaggisYes ,But they cant play hockey .

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:21 - ID#26669)
Bully Beef re gold
IMHO a person needs to educate themselves, get professional investment advice, understand their risks and decide their long term investment goals. ONLY then should they start looking for specific instruments of investment. Someone who follows bugs to decide their investments, whether goldbugs or microsoft bugs probably needs to go to their vet for a good wormer! IMHO

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:26 - ID#398105)
Bill Clinton is a Panda...............

This could equally applie to the US Government, and it approach to Middle East diplomacy.................

A panda walks into a pub and orders a sandwich. He eats the sandwich,
pulls out a gun and shoots the barman dead.

As the panda stands up to go, the landlord calls after him:

"Where are you going? You just shot one of my barstaff and you didn't
pay for your sandwich!"

The panda shouts back at him, "You idiot, I'm a PANDA! Look it up for
Gods sake!"

So the landlord gets out a dictionary and finds the following definition
for panda:

"A tree dwelling marsupial of Asian origin, characterised by distinct
black and white colouring. Eats shoots and leaves."

Aye, it makes you wonder.........Good nite.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:27 - ID#93232)
@Gotta ' go to the vet....
BBL....damn, these are pesky littl' critters.... ( scratch ) . Go Goldcrabs!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:27 - ID#398105)
Bill Clinton is a Panda...............

This could equally applie to the US Government, and it approach to Middle East diplomacy.................

A panda walks into a pub and orders a sandwich. He eats the sandwich,
pulls out a gun and shoots the barman dead.

As the panda stands up to go, the landlord calls after him:

"Where are you going? You just shot one of my barstaff and you didn't
pay for your sandwich!"

The panda shouts back at him, "You idiot, I'm a PANDA! Look it up for
Gods sake!"

So the landlord gets out a dictionary and finds the following definition
for panda:

"A tree dwelling marsupial of Asian origin, characterised by distinct
black and white colouring. Eats shoots and leaves."

Aye, it makes you wonder.........Good nite.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:29 - ID#398105)
Bill Clinton is a Panda...............

This could equally applie to the US Government, and it approach to Middle East diplomacy.................

A panda walks into a pub and orders a sandwich. He eats the sandwich,
pulls out a gun and shoots the barman dead.

As the panda stands up to go, the landlord calls after him:

"Where are you going? You just shot one of my barstaff and you didn't
pay for your sandwich!"

The panda shouts back at him, "You idiot, I'm a PANDA! Look it up for
Gods sake!"

So the landlord gets out a dictionary and finds the following definition
for panda:

"A tree dwelling marsupial of Asian origin, characterised by distinct
black and white colouring. Eats shoots and leaves."

Aye, it makes you wonder.........Good nite.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:30 - ID#398105)

Hockey.....only Poofters from the Northern Hemisphere play that ?!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:33 - ID#224149)
Prime Who
Haggis ---Last time Canada was panda-ized was Mulroney but then again we all know cobwebby material.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:49 - ID#341214)
Haggis: So, when is the US going to "bomb" Tel Aviv ????
Haggis: You might as well ask when is the US going to bomb Britain, France and Russia too. When has Israel used or threatened to use their weapons of mass destruction irresponsibly? What I hear Israel saying is "If you hit us we will hit you back twice as hard." That's the only way to keep a bully in line.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:53 - ID#340459)
Isn't USA defying UN Security Council (3 out 5 members against Air Strikes)and World opinion by
unilaterally deciding to go to War against International consensus

(Mon Feb 16 1998 09:56 - ID#340459)
Israel has 200 Nuclear Warheads aimed at all of Arab Nations in the region, Are they not weapons of
mass destruction ?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:00 - ID#341214)
Midas: I think the US claims the authority based on resolutions passed during and after Gulf War I. I don't know if this is a good way to do business but there you have it.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:01 - ID#398105)
Some light reading......Gold is the key

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:01 - ID#340459)
For 40 yrs South Africa defied UN Resolutions and sanctions and Israel has 69 UN Resolutions that
defied due to US Veto protecting any action due to non-compliance, Why are we selective in Implementation of UN Resolutions. USA is also defying International view within UN against futility of Air Strikes on Iraq

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:07 - ID#57232)
What You have missed may not be all that bad
Bully Beef: I was fortunate enough to get involved in the gold markets around April 1993 when the gold rally was about 1/2 over. Doubled my investment in 6 months just by buying and selling intermediate term -- weeks-months. I have made money in gold/gold stocks fairly consistently since then, until around Dec 1996. Since then most of my profits in other investments were cancelled by my losses in the gold market.

What I have learned the hard way is that if you really want to make money in precious metals, you must be equally at home during bulls and bears. If you are perpetually bullish in any market, you will eventually lose. This will happen even in the general equities markets -- despite the fact that they go up much more than they go down. Have you read Vic Sperandeo's books about trading in the markets? His books are excellent, and clearly spell out when in the economic cycle markets are safer, and when they are not. Right now it is very clear to pros such as Trader Vic or Warren Buffett that the stock market is riding on 'vapor'. Now if you are a short term trader, you can ride the waves, even if the crash is near. But if you are one of us mere mortals, like myself -- an investor not a trader -- the safer thing to do is put most of your cash in treasuries and more secure assets, and wait for precious metals to rally.

If you get frustrated waiting for that precious metals rally, learn to short term trade, like Trader Vic, and learn how to invest in commodities. Also you should read Frank Veneroso's teleconferences posted on this site -- he is undoubtedly the most informed individual you will find on the fundamentals of gold investing. In a nutshell he believes the CB's have stopped selling ( loaning ) gold, and that the equilibrium price of gold is $600/oz. If you do some calculations based on the amplification effect of gold stock investments over gold bullion, and figure on an overshoot to $800/oz over the next few years, a 10x return on a well-managed investment in gold stocks is quite possible.

While you are waiting for gold to rally, you can read up on the history of gold/gold stocks reassure yourself that you did the right thing. You will find out that CB gold sales tend only to be for less than 3 years, and gold rallies tend to follow in a regular pattern. Also, when the Fed has no choice except to expand the money supply ( recessions, etc ) , gold tends to go up. You just need to see the cycles, just as you would need to do in trading commodities. Anyone who thinks markets only go up is at a severe disadvantage. These days, virtually everyone I know thinks that.

As a gold/gold stock investor, you can't just think in months, you must think years.

One last item, which I always enjoy thinging about when I get frustrated watching the equities market go up, defying gravity. Those gold coins have intrinsic value. That 1897 Liberty $ 20 gold piece -- even an average one -- is worth well over $400. The price of gold will always catch up to the value of paper goods -- it is just that we are at the extreme of the paper part of the long cycle. So -- it is no surprise that you should feel poorly about gold -- it is at the bottom. And we are at the top of the equities market -- where the euphoria is at its greatest level. Be patient, and you will make back every penny you did not make, as well as a little more.

And, when the equities markets bottom, you will be among the few who will will be able to buy paper at a fire sale, when the paper/hard assets cycle begins anew. But -- I cannot tell you when that will be, or whether the US equities markets will fall this year or next. Perhaps the US equities markets will continue for years to come -- but if so, we will have some severe contractions on the way to whatever awaits us.

Eventually we will be forced to come to terms with our debt: $15 trillion in federal debt plus entitlements, and another $15 trillion in private/corporate debt. We may not face the full weight of our folly -- but our children and grandchildren certainly will. Good Luck!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:08 - ID#238295)
Middle East
Tzadeak: The Mideast situation is indeed very diffferrnt from 19991. Unless US policy changes radically ( a virtual impossibility unless the grip of the Israel lobby is broken ) , the inevitable regional turmoil will be very bullish for gold over the next few years.

Nonetheless, it does look like we are going to get a final shakeout in the yellow before we cross $300 for good. Still expect it when US starts bombing. If US refrains from bombing we may not get it at all.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:09 - ID#340459)
USA is after total subservience to their World View and their intent is far beyong Iraq as US media
is currently building up stories that Sudan, Algeria, Libya etc are all producing Iraqi weapons in their factories. USA may now be trying to buy Russia's acquisence by forcing some Middle East Monarchies to pay Russia $80 Billion owed by Iraq. A dangerous game indeed, How can you destroy chemical weapons from Air when it could not be found for 6 years by Inspectors on the ground.,,, Beats me.....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:12 - ID#287358)
Num strike action could force South Afican gold mines to close

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:12 - ID#187218)
Are there any followers of ISLAM out there,,,,?
I had provided these 2 posts to ANOTHER and he did not know the answer. Does anyone understand that what we think of Muslims in the ME cannot be done according to the Qu'ran ? So,,,, who's hoarding the gold ?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:16 - ID#358318)
If the numbers work out for a Kitco subscription element to fund a publicity drive, I'm all for it.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:18 - ID#187218)
Excellent post, Sir!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:18 - ID#286250)
D.A., All--Oil interregnum?
D.A., Date: Sun Feb 15 1998 15:20 ( ) ID#7568: Refer: Oil is not priced in any one currency any more than any other commodity.

1. Bottom line, oil is just a commodity--a VITAL commodity certainly--but a commodity nonetheless. Not having the lions share of it does not-- ipso facto-- deny ones country a leading world power role any more than holding the lions share of it confers a leading world power role.

2. The ME has a poor leading world power profile, for all that it sits on a sea of oil. Were one pushed to offer an epigram describing the ME, one might well offer,Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations. Empire building requires more than commodity wealth. The ME is a region torn with ancient enmities and religious schisms and unlikely to accommodate a new Pirenne Thesis for a century or more.

3. We might do well to consider HOW three major middle eastern oil currencies are defined, i.e. pegged: NOT to the dollar, but to the SDR. Sorry to bring this back, but this is real, this is true, one needs to consider, ask why?, and attempt to see through all the USD white noise. IS the world being seduced into watching one major, strong currency only? Would prudence suggest we again ask Why? There are currency boards which peg to the Dmark for instance. There are monetary authorities which peg to the SDR.

4. Prudence might also suggest that we seek to define--or rather recognize--that country that World Power Elites believe to be the rightful candidate for Leading World Power in the 21st century. Prudence might suggest that we investigate that countrys bona fides and 're-ask' our questions with this country in mind.
a ) The country is China.
b ) The preferred ethos of governance is quiet, behind the scenes persuasion, which is a tool available to those whose power is real
1 ) consider: much of what we now see, began to unfold in the 93-94 time window. Is it unreasonable to suggest that foreign governments looked through Clintons dossier and saw problems/opportunities? John Huang/Riady for example?

c ) The prima goal is stability, which suggests, from Chinas +G30 [to a somewhat lessor degree--granted] a major role for gold.
d ) The reasonable currency is a non-hegemon currency of account which contains a real measure of value ( i.e. gold ) . This--not because China will not link her currency to gold [2000 year of Dragon, element of year metal ) but rather that China, in her wisdom, sees that a currency of account controlled centrally by a collage of governments stands a reasonable chance of coming to fruition AT THE PROPITIOUS MOMENT. Perhaps Anothers enigmatic There is one oil country who will not be fooled... suggests steps China will take IF global currency of account is stillborn?

Whether or no Another is a real person, he has brought forward real issues that lead to real threads, all of which seem to emanate from the clever, busy spiders web.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:19 - ID#340459)
USA will likely attack after Olympics (for posterity) and before Muslim Pilgrimage (for religion)
this actions may spike Oil and Gold a lot in March, IMHO..

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:20 - ID#187218)
URL not found,,,,,

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:25 - ID#346248)
Thank you JTF
Excellent Post!!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:25 - ID#26793)
@Bully Beef
Profits are nice, I share your complaint; but this seems to be one of those rare times in history when it is more wise to think of survival.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:27 - ID#187218)
The article mentions "high-cost mines", but, do you know what the production cost is and how it relates to other mines.

ALL: Is there a site that lists a normalized price of mine production costs ?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:29 - ID#26793)
The link between oil and gold. Time to repost this.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:29 - ID#57232)
Must Log off -- chores
Midas: Much of our problem with our foreign policy has to do with credibility, and maintaining the high moral ground. The international community knows far more about our problems with ethical government ( the lack of it ) and corruption within our government than we do. Also -- our current leaders are pollsters where everything is decided on popularity and manipulating the media. Public opinion polls have little to do with right and wrong in foreign policy. Our leaders are believing some of their own public opinion lies, and have lost sight of the truth. Just like with our markets and derivatives trades, our govermental policies have lost much intrinsic value -- every year the functions of our government become more and more irrelevant.

So -- doing the right thing, and standing on high moral ground is a thing of the past. We must regain that high moral ground again if we wish to continue to play a leadership role in the mext century. Too bad we do not have a moral/ethical anchor like the fincancial anchor we have with real wealth --- gold. I find it interesting that when we are being pulled by the currents in the financial markets, it parallels our drift in moral/ethical issues as well.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:33 - ID#342282)
Haggis re nuggets
Australian Embassy in D.C. said no rules.Just send money and get them back in the mail. I thought Aussie was a fee country and I guess it is. Thanx. P.S. my email is now, if you can use it.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:33 - ID#187218)
SDRer__A@10:18,,, enjoyed reading it,,, Now for the benefit of those new to us,,

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:35 - ID#187218)
Midas__A@10:19,,, your views were shared by Sunday morning commentators,,,
not sure which,,,, "This Week",,, "Meet the Press",,, ????

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:37 - ID#340459)
@JTF, With each new scandal BC popularity "apparently" is going up , currently at 89%, with more
scandals it will soon be 100%..

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:41 - ID#31868)
The polls are lies plain and simple. The coward elect is not liked to the degree the polls say he is.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:41 - ID#26793)
Yvan Auger weekly gold update

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:42 - ID#222231)
Haggis - 08:45 post
I wish everyone on this site would read your post and really see WHAT and WHO is in control. Once you understand what the macroeconomics are, you can see clearly what is happening in our world.
Everyone is complaining about the Fed, IMF, BIS WTO, CB's, etal, trying to comprehend the manipulation and destruction of our beloved gold. The facts in your post are indisputable and on record. Thier force and power is so great that I doubt they will be stopped from achieving thier ends, save by the grace of GOD.

I'll probably get a response that I'm a conspiracy nut again. Open up your eyes, guys.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:46 - ID#398105)
And now for something not many of us realized...............

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:52 - ID#57232)
Must Log off!
Midas: I think tolerant1 one is right that the polls have been distorted. I took one the other day on one of the national newsmedia websites. Some of the questions had choices that were all unacceptable. So - even the polls have been distorted.

My guess is that Clinton's popularity bubble will burst, just like the market might -- suddenly and unexpectedly. And, perhaps at the same time.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:52 - ID#330175)
Studio.R.............................Bein the 'Keeper of the Flame'(thank you CherOkee) @
Kitco---I don't sleep amd must maintain combat-readiness @ all times....It's a damn-dirty job but someone has ta 'do-it' I don't know squat about the oil business ( they ran me off that rig after a few months ) --do YOU blame them?....Away to do my ten-mile + 'daily walk-a-thon' and see if I can shake some of the cob-webs.....doubtful,but what do I have ta

(Mon Feb 16 1998 10:54 - ID#238295)
Middle East and gold
Media is lying as usual about the real issues in he Middle East. It is not Iraq weapons real or imagined. The real issues is sanctions and the terms for ending them.

Most of the world agrees that sanctions should end when Iraq has complied with UN mandates to destroy weapons of "mass destruction".But US has made it abundantly clear that it will maintain sanctions until SH is ousted. So he has absolutely no incentive to comply with UN demands for weapons destruction. The key to who will win or lose this confrontation is will the sanctions end if SH remains in power and agrees to destroy the weapons? Such an outcome will be proclaimed a US victory in the press, but it would in fact constitute a defeat. I think the gold action will confirm this line of reasoning.

BTW, with regard to Libya, the Clinton regime not long ago said it might bomb alleged underground chemical weapons facilities in that nation. The Israeli-first agenda in the region is total domination and the prevention of any Arab regime gaining access to weapons that could deter an Israeli ( or US ) attack. If Israel-first hard liners continue to get their way, this crisis could indeed escalate well beyond Iraq with all that implies for the gold price.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:00 - ID#398105)
You have missed the point................

fundaMETAList ( Haggis: So, when is the US going to "bomb" Tel Aviv ?? )

In ALL the years of the A and H bomb, there was always a "Mexican" standoff. Everyone had a bomb, but no one used it.

the same rules apply TODAY......Old Saddam has got what everyone else has, supplied largely by the "West". So, why are the Americans changing the rules ?

Old European Money really does own the USA. the President is selected, not elected, by Old European you by the balls !

Give my last post a read.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:00 - ID#398105)
You have missed the point................

fundaMETAList ( Haggis: So, when is the US going to "bomb" Tel Aviv ?? )

In ALL the years of the A and H bomb, there was always a "Mexican" standoff. Everyone had a bomb, but no one used it.

the same rules apply TODAY......Old Saddam has got what everyone else has, supplied largely by the "West". So, why are the Americans changing the rules ?

Old European Money really does own the USA. the President is selected, not elected, by Old European you by the balls !

Give my last post a read.

The Hermit
(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:03 - ID#374232)
@ JTF - your 10:07 post
This is an excellent post sir! I always look forward to reading your posts. This post is a good example of why we spend time at Kitco.

I thank you sir!


The Hermit

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:04 - ID#340459)
@JTF,Tolerant1. I just read this in an article, which is enclosed for your comments..
It has been said that "in any struggle, it is essential to know two things:
What you are fighting for and what you are fighting against.

If knowledge of the former is absent, the will to win will be lacking. If
knowledge of the latter is absent, confusions and uncertainty will result.".......

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:08 - ID#398105)
Pete........the illusion is the US$..........

Old European Money controls the Fed, IMF, BIS WTO, CB's, and GOLD.

To them it is GOLD that matters, the US$ is a means to an end.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:09 - ID#24135)
Read my lips.. Libanon and Leeudoorn will close
To all
There seem to be several people "interested" in RSA,
mainly from the negative standpoint. Chevy .. just
quoted a business day article .. "Gold Mines would
close ".." if there was any NUM strike action".
I think Gold Fields would LOVE to have some NUM
action as an excuse to accellerate closure of the Libanon
and Leeudoorn Mines at the Kloof complex. They should
be CLOSED anyway. The fact that Gold Fields let the
high profits from Kloof carry the losses at Libanon
and leeudorn is a glowing example of lousy Gold Fields
management. If they close these two dogs, Kloof becomes
a buy after the smoke clears.
to durban deep sports fans
Ive gotten the material from Deeps that has all the
resources in it. It is just a question of sitting
down now and sifting through. They have a lot of
property and a lot of resources .. not as much as
Harmony though
For Glenn
I read your 2 cents worth. Do you have any rationale
for that view or did it come to you in a dream?. To me,
gold has NOT broken out of its downtrend and a bottom
at 270/280 has not really been established. However,
it HAS spent more time above its 30 day MA then any
time since early 1996. The Jse-golds haven't broken
their downtrend either also despite being above their
30 day. One interesting point. The adl-gold just hit
a new low which is no way confirmed by the index itself.
I dont know what this means.. but its some kind of
divergence. I think the situation is simply
indeterminate, but would love to find some rationale
for leaning one way or the other.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:15 - ID#432148)
Latin American Mining Profits...
came in at $950 mn in 3rd qtr of 1997, up 32.4% compared to 1996. Sales

were $US 5.1 bn up 4% from previous years. Capitalization of mining

companies was $US, 14 bn or 54.8% of which was Vale do Rio Doce

( CVROY ) . This company also heads the profits list with $US 415 million,

up 148% from 1996.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:18 - ID#222231)
When I said our beloved gold, I meant our ability to own it. If we owned gold or equivalent, they could not control us any longer.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:23 - ID#206358)
AP NEWS READ: China Air Jet Crahes in Taiwan

Associated Press Writer

TAIPEI, Taiwan ( AP ) -- A China Airlines A-300 jetliner
returning from the Indonesian island of Bali with 197 passengers
and crew crashed and burst into flame Monday night just short of
Taipei's Chiang Kai-shek airport, an aviation official said.

The deputy director-general of Taiwan's Civil Aeronautics
Administration, Chang Kuo-cheng, said the plane carried 182
passengers and 15 crew, and that no survivors had so far been

Among the passengers was Shu Yuang-tung, governor of
Taiwan's Central Bank, his wife, and other finance officials
returning from a conference in Bali.

The other officials were listed as Chen Huang, head of the bank's
Department of Foreign Exchange,
and Chien Chi-min, head of the Department of Economic Research.

Most of the passengers were believed to be Taiwanese, but a passenger
manifest issued by the airline
showed five foreign names. The nationality of those passengers was not
immediately known.

The plane hit the ground several hundred yards short of the runway,
which is located about 24 miles
west of the capital, burst into flame and skidded into a row of houses.
There were no immediate
reports of casualties on the ground.

TV footage showed firefighters trying to put out flames in windows and
doors of a building, and piles of

The plane crashed while attempting to make a scheduled landing at 8:09
p.m. at the airport's northern
runway, state television reported.

Heavy fog was reported around the airport throughout the afternoon and
evening. A light rain was
falling at the time of the crash, but visibility was reported to be adequate.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:24 - ID#24135)
Keeping you in the picture
For Salty and Cricket fans Everywhere
Pat symcox become the 3rd number 10 batsman in the history
of the game to score a century. He should get a gold medal for

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:37 - ID#358318)
Sun Tzu said: "The five elements ( water, fire, wood, metal, earth ) are not always equally predominant; the four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning and waxing"

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:38 - ID#257136)
Re: Haggis' post of 08:45
I followed the link and lo and behold; I found a pretty good piece of substantiation.Below is a quote copied from the work:

"Yes, the Jewish Encyclopaedia claims that the great fortune accumulated by the Rothschilds over
the years was based on the "businesslike" method of fraud. "

For most of my adult life, I have been aware of the ( new phrasing ) of the
Talmudic principle--largely adhered to world wide- "Screw the Goy".

Just as one swallow doth not a summer make, this one piece of information cannot by itself be used as anything more than what it is.
A historical reference to something many people believe to be true!!

I found the entire post re: the Red Child family highly interesting!!
The significance of the Red Shield was not lost on me!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:40 - ID#340459)
@JIN, Wasnt Taiwan at one point the largest holder of Physical Gold in the World, I recall this
situation existed a few years ago, I dont know Taiwan's holdings today

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:42 - ID#340459)
@JTF,Kindly read Largest holder of Gold in the region and not World, Thanks..

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:51 - ID#341214)
Haggis: Thanks for clarifying your comment about Tel Aviv. I'm really tired ( and slow ) this morning. Not that it matters much in view of the point you are trying to make, but let's not forget that the US alone had the bomb for several years and only used it to end a war.

Because I remain tired ( and slow ) at the moment could you tell me what you mean by the US is changing the rules?

As for the the one world essay, I'm not gonna read it right now because ( you guessed it ) I'm still tired ( and slow ) .

The Hermit
(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:54 - ID#374232)
@ Haggis
Your post of 10:46. This is most interesting!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 11:59 - ID#287358)
Wet Gold

I'm sorry but I don' t have the current production costs. But at present 14 mines producing 199 tons of gold about two fifths of total SA output is unprofitable. This was despite hedging. As we read more about closings of gold mines it could become a positive for gold.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:00 - ID#344308)


the recent info you posted regarding the history of what has
been, and that which is probably to come, is a monument to this
site! history.......and those who have seemingly always controlled....
and who through greed, have determined the ebb and flow of history to
the n'th degree......the winners and loosers.....the opponents.....
the killing fields...........all, and more.......the rosthschilds and few, dominating the many, from behind
the many layers of much power through their
vast holdings....the peopleo are damned few and far between, who have
ANY CONCEPTION of reality here; on a piece of rock, hurtling through a
freezing vacuum at 25kmph, protected by a vaporous membrane of gaseous
plasma......carbo-earth-anouts---masters of nothing except dissention, war, and misery for the masses, at the hands of the few.....with the
greatest diaspora ever......very near......for the benefit of the self-appointed task-masters from centuries ago....enabled by money-------
for money............

tolerant1---fellow-warrior-------get camdessus....and their ilk....!;\
our childrens birth certificates being sent to the imf! sorry bastards......twfih!!!
shoot from the hip-----aim for their lip........

aye friend, aye........

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:03 - ID#344308)


(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:04 - ID#429245)
The lure of the American dream...
Midas, your Friday 14:20 post was excellent. This perspective needs to be realized and reflected upon around the world. The hollow values of the USA; wasteful materialism combined with an obsession for growth and profit, will have the same corrupting effect on all peoples who follow them.

The US has lost touch with reality. A final, profound belligerence has taken hold in place of the precepts of what once seemed a inviolable nation. Now the rest of the world looks on aghast as America, against majority world opinion and empowered only by its military, designates itself as the world police force.

The US will attack Iraq citing the authority of UN resolutions, fully aware that today they would never get UN approval for military force. They plan an unachievable mission that will leave many Arab civilians dead. Russia and China and many more vehemently disapprove. This is United Nations authority? What a sham! What a blatant lie!

The American dream has truly become a world nightmare. Other countries must search for meaning in their own cultural histories, and use it to control the shallow, self-obsessed tantrums of that infant nation.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:06 - ID#342282)
Haggis, re your 10:46
Whew! Since 1945 I've researched into this material and what you posted sounds appropriate. I just never got it together, certainly no way approaching your ref. Many thanx

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:08 - ID#7568)

The 'discussion' directory under /pub is unfindable. Is there a new way to upload charts or am I missing something?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:10 - ID#344308)


your seat on the ssm is reserved and roped off....
it awaits your arrival......the golden feather being forged....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:17 - ID#280222)
re: your 10:07
JTF:....good solid advice. kudos!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:21 - ID#28585)
Anybody have any insights??

(Mon Feb 16 1998 12:56 - ID#23398)
No news on newswires so far. TVX ON TSE @ 12.10 UP .02cents

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:04 - ID#340459)
Reposting: Question to USA, the self declared "Leader of the Free World"
THE Clinton Administration's phobia against Iraq and Mr.
Saddam Hussein is being taken to extremes. Lack of legitimacy,
norms of civilised conduct, loss of lives, devastation of whole
economies of poor nations, world opinion - nothing seems to
matter in the eyes of the US and the few hapless stooges it has
been able to line up in support of launching a massive military
strike against Iraq.

This is all of a piece with the chest-thumping that has come to
characterise the overlordship of the world that the US has
assumed following the demise of the Soviet Union.

The age-old doctrine of might being right has been firmly put in
place in justification of any action that the US wishes to embark
on to show who is the boss.

In its perverse judgment, anyone who refuses to submit meekly
to its dictates based on its own self-centred political, economic,
social and cultural prescriptions ought to be mercilessly brought
to heel.

It has arrogated to itself the right to thrust down the throats of
other nations its own definitions of human rights, democracy,
free market, trade, tariffs, nuclear non-proliferation, military
strength, diplomatic conduct - in short, everything that formerly
used to be left to be decided by common consent after
exhaustive consultations among members of the international

Its Congressmen and Senators blithely build into its laws
provisions that are tantamount to blatant encroachment on the
sovereign rights of other nations to determine their own
domestic policies.

Any country that crosses its path faces its wrath in the form of
economic and other sanctions, and as in the case of Cuba, Libya
and Iraq, threats of attack and annihilation. Thanks to its wealth,
power and hold over the media, it is able to brainwash the world
with its hagiology and demonology: Despite its flaunted love for
democracy and human rights, it is prepared to see saintly halos
round military dictators so long as they serve its goals and

But woe betide those who assert their independence! The Soviet
Union becomes an ``evil empire'' and leaders such as Fidel
Castro, Qaddafi and Saddam Hussein the very devils incarnate.
Regrettably, there are people in influential positions in various
walks of life in many countries of the world who unthinkingly
accept these denunciations as the last word.

The US and its cohorts are now baying for Iraq's blood
ostensibly on the pretext of enforcing some resolutions imposed
on the hapless members of the Security Council by sheer
diplomatic blackmail.

Year after year for more than 40 years, South Africa was
defying the UN by persisting with its oppressi

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:07 - ID#288155)
Jin--Tawain plane refresh our memories...
Thursday February 12, 11:35 pm Eastern Time

Asian central bankers tight-lipped on board plan
NUSA DUA, Indonesia, Feb 13 ( Reuters ) - Southeast Asian central bank officials attending the 33rd SEACEN governors
conference in Bali were tight-lipped on Friday when asked about Indonesia's plans to adopt a currency board system.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:11 - ID#286234)
JTF, Farfel
I was going to ask Farfel for one of his reassuring pep talks but then I read your 10:07 Thanks!

I hope asking anyone for reassurance in the future won't be necessary because the perception will have changed by then.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:15 - ID#23398)
RYO down 9.7% to cnd$1.72 ( -.18cnts ) after the news published this morning on the lack of water needed to operate the mine in B.C.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:20 - ID#342282)
Wetgold re your email
If you got my reply, ok. If not let me know re post. Thanx

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:20 - ID#238295)
a fall?
Midas: Amen!. But I do think that what goes around will start to come around to the US very shortly. Other nations will inevitably realize that they must hang together or hang seperately. US overextended and setting itself up for a fall.

A sad day for humankind, but potentially very bullish for the PMs.

BTW, I have no love for SH. He is a tyrant who has killed many. But at least he is standing up for the national interests of Iraq and the Arab world as a whole. Propoganda to the contrary, US cares not one whit about his crimes real or imagined. But his refusdal to follow orders scares the sh..t out of Clinton and his masters.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:35 - ID#24135)
Look Around - almost all mining costs exceed the gold price
For Chevy
Based on AVERAGE costs and WITHOUT hedging,
and with the possible exception of Rrime and
Newmont ( Just havn"t done numbers ) almost ALL
the north American Mine cost are higher
than the gold price. Perhaps this will be
a positive for gold. For example, ABX average
cost is almost 340$/oz. Try calculating the
numbers for yourself. Have Newmont's earnings
come out yet??

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:47 - ID#273368)
To All:
Go here: and type in AEO on TSE once again trading like mad by all the big investment firms. They are making a significant aquisition... Preacher knows more.
What happened to gold overnight? does any body know? $298.10 is breaking through 20 day moving average.
I think the US markets will take care of this first thing Tuesday morning.
Warren Buffet or George Soros know that inflation is coming, it's just a matter of waiting until it is announced then the people will know.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:48 - ID#93232)
It's called "follow-thru"......
Studio makes purchase of a "load" of St. Gaudens this morning...ms60, $470., 4-5 weeks del....YES!....I am a proud man...talkin' and DOIN'...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:51 - ID#26793)
Russian official proposes changes in gold, platinum markets

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:54 - ID#26793)
More Russian precious metals news

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:55 - ID#340459)
OLD GOLD, The innocent suffer from these power play's. BC and SH both remain safe in their holes
Oval Office / Bunker with all worldly comforts, Remember 400 women & kids died by a single missile fired from US Warship. When Iraq was bought to heel, why did US leave SH in power, He serves the purpose to
( a ) consistently increase US Military forces in the area to keep firm control of global Oil and these Monarchies in check, through Iraq's percieved threat of Saddam Hussein.
( b ) Annahilate any potential threat to Israel ( example:US being the guarantor of Middle East peace accords now does seek Implementation of these accords from Israel while 69 UN resolutions are pending against one party of these peace accord )
( c ) Teach Muslims a lesson for not being totally subservient to the Lord and Master of Nuclear and other arsenal., i.e. USA. US has supplied and installed more than 200 Nuclear warheads within Israel that are aimed at all important sites in the region ( these I presume are not weapons of mass destruction to US Elite as all other lives outside the 'chosen people' are of no consequence.

The people in Main street US will cheer drukenly in Bars blindly consuming media stories of how US is saving the day by raining bombs on the poor people there ( in the vice of sanctions, without shelter and medicene ) . Some might declare from pulpits that it is the 'most Christian thing' to do.

SH remains safe and BC gets his rating's up within USA by showing resolve steely resolve.

What 'Leaders' and indeed what 'Followers'.
GOD help us ALL

(Mon Feb 16 1998 13:58 - ID#187218)
MS60 "Saints" @$470 ??? Not a deal my friend and not numismatically leveraged ( must be at least MS64,, check wholesale prices,,, above MS64 the price change is greatly significant when POG shoots up and no so below MS64 ) ... sorry, man...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:00 - ID#26793)
Asian oil demand continues to crumble

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:03 - ID#93232)
A fool and his money soon part....thank God, I have more. Just posting so everybody can feel better about their "better" deals. Gracias.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:05 - ID#187218)
Studio.R@in addition to the last post,,,
Just got this quote from one of my suppliers:

Date,,,,,Grade,,,Service,,,,Price,,,NGC and PCGS Population

AGAIN: I never buy under MS64 for the previously stated reasons,,, I'd rather wait to save some money to get the grade rather than the year and coin. In the past few years you had plenty of time,,, this is how I have so many Saints and Indians,,, actually I hope the bear stays for another coupl'a years so that I can complete several sets such as Pan-Pacs, Morgans, Buffalo's, Saints, etc.

Keep the course but upgrade, man. Glad to hear though that you are in the market,,, ...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:06 - ID#335190)
Midas_A @ CANADA-A Good Neighbour-Friend.
Date: Mon Feb 16 1998 13:04
Midas__A ( Reposting: Question to USA, the self declared "Leader of the Free World" ) ID#340459:

**" nothing seems to matter in the eyes of the US and the few hapless stooges it has been able to line up in support of launching a massive military strike against Iraq.

It has arrogated to itself the right to thrust down the throats of other nations its own definitions of human rights, democracy, free market, trade, tariffs, nuclear non-proliferation, military strength, diplomatic conduct -

Its Congressmen and Senators blithely build into its laws provisions that are tantamount to blatant encroachment on the sovereign rights of other nations to determine their own domestic policies.

But woe betide those who assert their independence!"**

Sooooooooo, Thank you for describing the situation in Canada. We Canadians, that attach considerable importance to SOVEREIGN RIGHTS, have been attempting to have Canadians understand the actions of the USofA Corporate Agenda. We have always been told, we are socialists, ( Communists ) anti-USofA, and trying to destroy employment ( JOBS JOBS JOBS ) . YES, by USofA Corporate Representatives/Elected Canadian Lackeys.

NO we are not, at least I am not. We wish to be good friends, neighbours, and FREE, to market are standards, of independence/democracy. Not in a antagonistic format, but, in a zone of comfort by fair and honest manner.
RESPECT AND RESPONSIBILTY comes to mind. Much to Much to expect eh!
Thanks Take Care.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:09 - ID#187218)
chas,,,, will do,,,,,
also, still waiting for the situation re: changing from monthly stipend to lum sum for the padre,,,, will keep you posted....


(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:13 - ID#20748)
With both Russia and China opposing an attack on Iraq, look for a softening of rhetoric and soon to be found 'Diplomatic Solution'.

First signs can be seen in this report.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:14 - ID#24135)
One man's morality is another man's waste of time..
For Midas ..
While I disagree with US actions in the Middle
East .. If I had to choose between the US and the
UN, I would choose the US every time.
I would not REALLY consider attacking SH or
anyone else because they "disobeyed UN resolutions". I
regard the UN merely as another layer of
needless self serving politicians who spend
lots of money on themselves while seeking "moral high
ground" and interfering in other people's affairs.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:16 - ID#225273)
KMTMAN & Aurado

I quizzed my broker again this morning about AEO and the property is looks to be acquiring. The only thing that is known is that "it was good enought for Cominco to stake it." He added: "We're not even supposed to know they're getting it, yet."

I think this is just a case of "closeology," being close to a major deposit. And evidently, the property is being acquired from Cominco. Whispers and rumors abound.

The lack of concrete info is the reason that so many are willing to sell. Around 3 million shares the past two days, last I heard. For those unwilling to speculate on an unknown property, the volume and price rise is a good opportunity to exit.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:20 - ID#340459)
6pak, I think it is a moral duty of every thinking man to speak against in-justice of the powerful
meted out to the meek. I rail against evil cloaked in Hypocrisy and misinformation served to us consistently that has already brain washed the majority in these lands,

These lands and people have plenty and should be counting their blessings, instead of being led by the greedy folks within,for more from the rest of the world, who mistakenly look up to this model as fair and just.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:21 - ID#20748)
Also noteworthy. Peace to all.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:21 - ID#24135)
I mean .. How amoral can you get ??
To all-
I am beginning to think that the US is going to back off
and there will be no attack on Iraq at all. This doesnt
affect me morally one way or the other, but I worry what
may happen to the gold price.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:26 - ID#252150)
RYO Could Go To 0
Too bad it's under 3.00 & I can't short it. I never did trust that avaricious butch boss.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:26 - ID#20748)
My last post was another Washington Post report which says Russian legislators visiting Iraq plan to stay and form a human shield at likely targets. This is the url

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:27 - ID#340459)
John Disney, You Sir, Did not seek bombing South Africa that defied UN Resolutions for 40 years and
Israel that HAS the most non-compliance i.e 69 UN Resolutions, In the same note, do admit both that we should bomb for UN and also state that you do not believe in UN's importance or it's role, I am confused..

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:30 - ID#24135)
I think Ziva is at the bottom of this...
To all..
Either way ... and I would bet on no attack at all.. the
US is going to look REALLY stupid. If it attacks, it wont be
able to do enough to knock SH down anyway, and if it fails
to attack it will look like it is afraid of him. Russia winds
up looking like the Statesman, and the US becomes the cowboy
that cant shoot straight..
How did they get into this mess... I think it all started
with anthrax in v......s. Ziva did it.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:33 - ID#28585)
It looks like, despite various problems experienced by N. American golds ( most notably TVX, Royal Oak, Kinross, Placer, and Homestake ) , the imminent South African gold strike should provide a macro positive that will outweigh the micro negatives of these companies, at least in the short term.

For a short term trader, it is not a bad idea to unload S. African golds and purchase N. American golds.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:34 - ID#28861)
John Disney
It looks like at least one more trip down for gold and why would anyone want the stuff while stocks are going up at a prodigious rate? Bill Buckler makes a good case ( The Privateer ) for more foreign investment coming our way in April from Japan. The Dow will make 10,000 before gold makes 350. If Iraq gets moved off the front burner and the Fed cuts interest rates, ( both of which are likely ) the mother of all rallies will occur. Not even weak 1st quarter earnings will slow this thing down. I wish/want gold to do well, but something must happen to the dollar/stock market first.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:40 - ID#60253)
We will have a change of events, please read,

The Time Is Right For A CHANGE OF EVENTS!

They traveled a long road to get here. Back in the early 70s they ran out of gold after printing too many dollar commitments. If they couldnt use gold anymore, what else could be used? You know and I know that the buck would have been dumped real fast without something behind it! All the talk back then and now, everybodys gona hold the greenback because of the USA economy and its military might, yea, right. Didnt see

any coverage on the TV, showing the behind the door financial rooms. Truth was, everybody was going to move straight to the hard currencies and gold! Dam the effects on the world economy, figure that out later.

But, look here, the oil states said, we will settle all oil payments in US$ ! Buy the oil in any currency and rate, but when you make the check, dollars please. The US agreed to float gold up to $250 if they went along. At that time, oil agreed because they held a hunk of gold in the NY fed bank valts. Looking at it back then, 250 looked to cover anything! Well , anything happened and the Carter had to slam gold in 78 when it crossed 250! Guess the US thought oil would just stop buying gold with excess cash, per the agreement back in 71. Anyway, the rest is history through the 80s. Everybody learned to love the dollar and hate the Russians!

Everything changed in a hurry during Desert Storm. Remember how gold got hammered, big time! War in the oil fields and gold down? Looked good on the TV news, America is winning, the dollar is good Gold? No need! Heres what really happened.

In a very real way, the US dollar was inflated so much that even oil couldnt back it! Yes! The US ran through the gold backing in the 70s then went to a much larger oil backing in the 80s. But, even oil couldnt contain the huge expansion of dollar commitments that were created by the early 90s. Back to the drawing board. This time

the US had to add gold to the oil backing mix, if the dollar was to remain on top!

A little political thought first, then we continue.:

Do you really think the US is the only country that will stand a military in the oil fields? What if they told the US, NO, we want someone else to defend us? You think there are no other takers? The truth is, everyone is lined up to offer defense. The price of oil backing the defenders currency is worth almost anything! All the deficit spending you want, goes to the defender! Even Russia, if you can believe it! As my friend would say, you think long and hard on this!

Now, back to gold. The deal: you may stand your army for us, in return,  oil will back the dollar, if the dollar is made strong by gold in as much as our people may replace the lost value of oil with gold in as much as we will produce oil in amounts to equate a gold/oil/dollar ratio close to that which existed at out previous agreement in the 70s And, pray tell, how does the USA make the dollar strong in gold ? The BIS leads the creation of a paper gold market that will lower the world price of gold to the extent that it remains above production costs.

Guess what, it worked! Contrary to all expectations of oil shortages, inflation, debt collapse and what have you, It Worked! But, there is one small problem?

The BIS and other various governments that developed this trade ( notice I didnt use conspiracy as it was good business, as the world gained a lot ) , thought that the paper gold forward market would have allowed the gold industry to expand production some five times over! Dont ask where they got this, as they are the same people that bring us government finance and such. But, without a major increase in gold supply, the paper

created by this gold control operation will either be paid by, 1. new supply. 2. the central banks. 3. rollover existing. 4. cash? 5. or total default! As the Asians started buying up everything last year ( 97 ) , number 5 and 5 started looking like the answer! When the CBs started selling into this black hole of demand, the discussion of #5 started in their rooms also.

What is really interesting is how gold is being viewed and traded in some areas. Some people are using its future reset price, in terms of oil as a value discount. In other words, they use paper gold to buy things based on the new oil/gold relationship perceived as a given in two years or less! It is assumed that this proportion of paper gold held by oil, will be converted, no matter what? We are talking, many thousands an ounce here!

So where are we now? Im not sure! How much gold paper is out there? If you look at the comex ratio of average daily volume to open interest, its sometimes around 8. Funny thing that ratio is close to the gold commitments traded in London. Multiply, say 40 million ozs by the ratio of 8 and we get 320,000,000 ozs. of gold. Now, the money is in

this gold paper, paid up. Just no gold yet, I think? Thats about 10 tons, Ill be dam! Thats a lot of IOU gold, dont you think? Add to this, that between the IMF and what CBs could sell, only about 1/3 of it is available at a much higher price, if at all! Then again, Im not in any position to know this, am I?

Wonder if anybody else knows or thinks this? Sure could mess up a sweet deal for the world economy. Does anybody have a plan, a currency plan, if things change? But, then again, just like in the early 70s, nothing changes. Does it?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:41 - ID#28585)
Anybody in Canada know what's going on with the stock?? I listened to Toronto teleconference call...proved to be merely a reiteration of facts previously released in last weeks press briefing.

How is the market reacting?

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:41 - ID#24135)
You dont have to call me "SIR".. sounds funny..
for Midas ..
Sorry if you are confused.. Lets just put me down FIRMLY
as against bombing ANYBODY for any reason and against UN
resolutions of ANY type and against the UN anyway and
against moral posturing Particularly, my good Sir.
Am I becoming less confusing ??
For sad RYO holders ...
If you look back through postings about 2/3 weeks ago when
I saw results.. I warned everyone about RYO. I got dumped on
a bit here and there. Anyway, some people I like held RYO
and I hope they dumped it..
Others I like less.. well I dont care if they dumped it or

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:44 - ID#252150)
Saddam@ The Uneducated Bedouin
is going to expose the U.S. Gov't & their immoral charlatan of a leader to worldwide contempt & enmity. One move from checkmate.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:47 - ID#28585)
James, if a two month delay in the RYO B.C. project results in the stock "collapsing," then I will gladly step in and buy as much as I can ( from "experts" like you ) when it reaches 1.25.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:47 - ID#20748)
John Disney
An attack on Iraq would promptly savage POG. AG is an expert at that. Lowering POG calms the markets. However, the Euro is another story, that will have a positive effect on POG. Straws in the wind for a diplomatic solution are getting bigger. Foreign Minister of Qatar ( puppet state ) is in Baghdad to explore peaceful resolution of the crisis.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:48 - ID#375108)
Farfel: Looks like a big yawn up here. StockWatch shows 0.6/4.12 bid and 4.15/11.3 ask, last 4.15, +0.02 , 31.1K traded, on the TSE. Light volume today on the gold stocks I follow.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:57 - ID#28585)
Oops...sorry...I didn't realize the expected delay is only 2 weeks...not 2 months.

In that case, I'll step in and buy all the RYO I can get at 1.70.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 14:58 - ID#93232)
Isn't it 10,000 tons "short"? Ten years of new production, more or less?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:00 - ID#187218)
ANOTHER: Russia is against the current US military threats,,, because,,,,,
"... All the deficit spending you want, goes to the defender! Even Russia... ".

hmmmmm,,,,,,, make sense.....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:06 - ID#225273)

Your perspective on what happened in the early 90s fills a void of knowledge ( somewhat ) , because the U.S. was in such financial trouble then that something certainly had to happen.

But the CBs don't "act" like they are subsidizing cheap oil with gold. I mean, it seems to me that someone would have "accidently" let this plan slip out sometime in the last six years.

Also, if the oil states cornered all the physical gold, would the western CBs move on the western military powers to attack the oil states if the need for the gold became perceived to be in western economic interests. I mean, I just can't see the western world sitting idly by and letting the oil states control the world's wealth without a struggle.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:14 - ID#252127)

This might help over time other opinions should be forthcoming by interested investors.
Yesterday someone posted about the "msg symbol" on the Yahoo quote screen. They may have some opinions on RYO and many others. I thank the poster.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:15 - ID#24135)
Farfel .. whats been happenin ?
For NJ .. Thanks .. You're probably right. That does
it .. lets call off the raid on Iraq. Hell I'd bomb
Joburg if it would make gold go up .. only kidding Midas..
and Collen in Joburg.
For Farfel .. You are indeed a man of imagination and
great conceptual skills.. Well now if I recall correctly
you seem to be peeved at me once because I did not share
your enthusiam over the AMAX - Kinross deal - wasnt that
it ?? By the way.. what finally transpired ??
On your purchasing RYO when it falls to whatever ..
I think getting out of RYO at the best possible price
would be top priority for many investors and Im sure
you will find a seller. I think it was a bit over 3 when
I said I thought it was awful .. where is it now anyway ..
dont follow it .. whats the point?
On the strike in RSA... yes you do that.. sell your
RSA stocks and buy NA. Not me though. I would NOT buy
any major North American Gold Mine. Not even Prime which
I think is the best. nor newmont.. Id buy RSA Bonds
first or maybe Aussie golds.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:17 - ID#335190)
Midas__A @ 14:20
""These lands and people have plenty and should be counting their blessings,""

Yes, you are correct. Being a Gold-Bug, is just as difficult as being a person that stands on guard, against the agenda of " Hypocrisy and misinformation "

WHY? would people such as you, and I, and others at this site, in the search to understand/investigate the Economic actions of government/corporate madness/agenda, do this to ourselves ?

We have arrive at this site, and now subject ourselves to the task of education/understanding, the economic chaos/flux of the currency markets, and have concluded that a Gold backed currency, will most likely assist, in the resolve of the future economic well being/standard of living, of our respective nations.

And yes, also to protect our present economic value/worth, that is obviously about to be taken, in an instant/flash, by unstable financial markets.

Add to the mix, trying to determine the best investment plan, to maximize the "grey" understanding of gold/timing. Then deciding the best protection/oppotunity, using one's limited knowledge. Kitco, sure helps to overload the mix of options, eh!

Thanks Take Care.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:23 - ID#222231)
Jack, farfel
I posted that message. You can also go to the home page of stock you are interesred in and contact the public relations person for any questions you may have. ( After getting quote click on symbol in quote box )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:24 - ID#254269)
When your computer's down, you're down ! ! It's like having a telephone that
is disconnected.......frustrating.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:24 - ID#153102)
@Tolerant1 & Cherokee
There is no legal significance to birth certificates in American law. Or to death certificates. Both are akin to the census. They do not pledge any one to any thing.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:27 - ID#31868)
You are correct in that a birth registration is unlawful and un-Constitutional.

I am continuing my research on the specific. Will let all know when I have finished.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:29 - ID#93232)
With my kind respect, may I ask you who wrote the essay posted today? Was it written at your request by an associate? The writing style differs dramatically from your previous posts. Thank you.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:29 - ID#187218)
ANOTHER:,,, say it isn't so,,,,

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:29 - ID#344308)

remember vince foster?

read this and follow links.......

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:38 - ID#333131)
So are you going to tell us next that Iran and Iraq are going to sell oil for 40 rubles and 40rubles worth of gold? By the way, your vernacular is slip-sliding all over the lot. What is your native language if you don't mind telling us.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:38 - ID#28585)
Good old Disney...back for more.

Actually, I agree with you that, awaiting further disclosures, Kinross-Amax merger might be designed to hide a problem?? You might be right, my mouse related friend. Yes, indeed.

As for RYO, I can't help but feel that somebody is trying to push the stock down to floor levels for reaccumulation ( Maybe the ol' lady Witte herself ) .

The news on the company today is just not that expected 2 week delay in their B.C. project??? Oh, be still my beating heart!
The B.C. government has given every indication it is firmly behind the what would prevent regulatory approvals? Nothing.

From a cynical perspective ( and I aim to imitate the Master ( yourself ) ) ,
the whole thing reminds me of what transpired prior to the Battle Mountain and Hemlo mergers. If you recall, just weeks before the merger,
Hemlo announced a major problem at its main mine in Ontario, suggesting the company would have to close the mine for repair. That announcement drove Hemlo stock price down almost 30%....then a mere few weeks later, Battle Mountain showed up with a takeover offer of the company, that drove the Hemlo stock price up about 30%. Net result: Battle Mountain ended up with a company for 30% less than it otherwise would have paid ( thanks to the Hemlo bad news released prior to takeover ) .

Why do I think Hemlo and Battle Mountain manipulated the situation? Because after the takeover, the CEO's of both companies agreed to share the position. It was a very co-operative little takeover, huh?

Again, back to RYO: most major gold pundits seem to suggest that gold has reached its floor price. Now if I were Ms. Witte, forced to cough up one million shares of my stock on a margin call...and I now believed that
gold is at bottom...and I've managed to refinance all my bond debt...then why not send a little bit of "panic" into the market so I can step in, reaccumulate the stock I once owned at a lower price than ever...then
in another few weeks, announce the B.C. approval of the extra water requirements for the B.C. project...and along with improving the stock zip right back up!

That's the way they play the game, my mouse-related friend...and I've been trading for 22 years ( and doing pretty damn good ) .

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:39 - ID#93232)
Re: my post of 14:58....
I realize that last year there were approx. 2500 tons of newly produced gold; however, I guesstamate that annual production output will be reduced dramatically at US$290/oz. Perhaps half, over a course of time.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:41 - ID#28585)
Hey...they need the business...El Nino killling their theme parks in California and FLorida.

And DIS trades at a mere 40 times earnings.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:46 - ID#227290)

I noticed the vast difference in style today as well. ANOTHER posted on Feb. 4 in this vernacular. I'll be interested to see if he answers your question.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:48 - ID#7568)

After much travail I have succeeded in cobbling together a means of converting my charts to gif format. Here's a chart of the ratio of gold/oil going back to 1977 and ending 1/1/98. Sorry about the color, and the fonts, more work needs to be done.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:52 - ID#31868)
Regarding birth registrations I do believe there is a tie between IMF, national debt and these registrations. They are obviously unlawful, but I am searching for the fine print.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:54 - ID#93232)
Your V. Foster "urls" post doesn't execute...thanks.

All....Take possession of your gold....otherwise, ten other people may lay claim to it...Each day, one year's production of gold is sold at the LBMA....scary....whose gold are Andy and Ted selling???

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:55 - ID#28585)
Please understand, Mickey, that my advice is simply a short term thing. I do not counsel anybody to sell S. African golds on a permanent sustained bases.

If in fact there is a strike in S.Africa, this time it may prove to be fairly lengthy. Those golds are bound to drop...while in N. America, with increasing war uncertainty and improving POG, add the S. Africa gold mine closure into the equation, and the positive macro factor should outweigh any micro negatives.

In any case, the last time there was a substantive S. African gold strike scare, N. American golds rose an average of 10-15% on the news.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:56 - ID#24135)
Stick with me farfel.. You should be in pictures
for Farfel
Look if I owned Disneyland .. you'd have lifetime free
admission .. and .. I spoke of imagination ... that's me ..
the MASTER but of UNDERSTATEMENT .. The script you have
just composed around the dry sad tale of RYO makes my
head swim.
And IF I had anything to do with Disney enterprises ..
I would have you as the HEAD of ALL creative endeavors ...
.. when I looked at RYO - I just saw high costs , no reserves
, and a overpaid greedbag on top creaming off any cash flow
while the company slowly disappears ... how mundane, how
dry ... while YOU have created POETRY ... Great THEATER..
and thats a lot more important that gold mines .. I
unfortunately am one of those uncreative drudges that has to
pay for tickets... so Ill hold off on buying RYO and watch the drama
unfold on KITCO theater.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 15:57 - ID#31868)
the govt vs the people
Clearly the government is making an all out effort to drum up support for bombing Iraq. It seems clear that the people do not want this bombing to take place.

If I am not mistaken the government is not in charge, the people are.

Silly me.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:00 - ID#28594)
Preacher at 15:06, nor can I...
It would be a first in the planet's history.One might entertain a
fraction of the thought, resulting--perhaps--from bureaucratic "selective inattention" but as a PowerProgram? "Power vacuum" is a catchy journalistic phrase; the sine qua non of power is action, or--at the very least--detailed plans for proposed possible actions! Sounds like quantum politics--but what do I know?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:01 - ID#344308)

'the powers that be will clean house with a vengance'
again.....ties and links to the klintonistas and their
$$$ for anything campaign......political prostitution.....
the oldest profession, brought to new heights....
fixing to be brought to new lows?

'for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction' sir isaac...

what does this portend for the current regime? they will be brought down
by the very same devices that got them where they are.....their lies are
causing the truth to surface.....a simple law of physics....the truth
has a lot more pushing to do before stasis is reached........klinton will not survive....the polls being shown, the highest approval ratings ever...har-dee-har-har...who believes that sh!t? pollsters care-fully
calling the washington-for-lunch-bunch-------to get their sig answers...
sig thi, sig that.........queers here, and the village here, bj's there.........what has he done for the
us and the international scene other than do nothing as the fuses were lit, and allowed to burn to the mercury-fulminate? it is too late......
it is too late......prepare for what haggis posted of the self-appointed
task-masters of the is as i was taught....we are but
'riders on the storm'--doors---

i'll be riding the edge of the 'nado with the silver-surfer....hope
to see you on 'your' wave! approaches..with great rapidity.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:02 - ID#238295)
SA golds
Farfel: The SA golds have already dropped considerably in anticipation of a strike. Those who sell now might be getting out near the bottom.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:05 - ID#238295)
Clinton polls
Cherokee: Clinton's good polls largely reflect the booming stock market. His ratings will drop like a lead balloon when the market tanks. That is why his why his people will do all in their power to keep the bubble going as long as possible.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:06 - ID#93232)
@CherOkee...T#1.... your 16:01 doesn't work either...censure? Ohmy!'re as "silly" as a heart attack. God Bless You...Please run for office....I'll raise da muny.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:07 - ID#344308)

it links-up real fast when i click on it from kitco...anyone else
not able to access?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:07 - ID#280215)
Bart, Anyone! - Refresh When Returning (BACK) From Link Or Full Text
I noticed after scanning the weekend posts that DJ noted that when returning ( BACK ) from full text or a link, he gets the screen refreshed to the beginning of the forum, instead of the begining of the link or short message. This happens to me also. IDT ( belated thanks for your response ) responded over the weekend that it happens since being upgraded to Internet Explorer 3.0, and that it never happened with Netscape. Can anyone else verify if it is indeed the browser software or this forum's software? Is this happening to any Netscape users or other Internet Explorer users for that matter?

It seems to me that this might be important to know for sure, before deciding what to do about the short/full text issue. Thanks in advance for any assistance!

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:07 - ID#24135)
if you start calling me mickey you will soon become minnie
for farfel
You have displayed your creative skills and in SPADES. Now
lets see your analytical talents..
Do you think that the NUM will call a strike with no Government
support and in contravention of the agreed upon contract with
the mining companies ( which would make the strike illegal )
at a time when Gold Fields is eager at long last to shut down
leeudorn and libanon ??? OOHHH they would be walking into
one with Gold Fields.. Ill watch that one on Kitco theater
too, if you dont mind.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:08 - ID#335190)
Canadian *U.N.* Ambassador @ Presenting case for Federal Government against Quebec Separation.
February 16, 1998
Court hearings begin with federal case on Quebec right to separate

OTTAWA ( CP )  A lawyer for the federal government asked for emotion to be set aside as the Supreme Court began hearing arguments today on Quebec's legal right to separate.

"I don't think it would be exaggerating to say there is a lot of tension in the air today," Yves Fortier said as he began to put Ottawa's case on why Quebec cannot legally secede.

"I would say it is essential in these debates that we not allow the law to be taken over by emotion. If I stray from this path, my lord, I would ask you to set me straight."

Fortier, a Montreal lawyer and former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations, was the first to rise before the Supreme Court's nine judges today in an effort to lay out the legal rules for the political battle over Quebec separation. Before a full courtroom,

"The federal government is not seeking to throw political roadblocks in front of the right of Quebecers to decide their own political future," he said.

Bouchard's government is officially boycotting the case, though the court has appointed a lawyer  longtime Parti Quebecois activist Andre Joli-Coeur  to argue the sovereigntist side.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:09 - ID#28594)
All: Another's Janus persona explained?
As my friend would say, you think long and hard on this!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:12 - ID#344308)


netscape communicator brings you back to where you left off.
the other netscape programs bring you to the start of the can download communicator for free. go to netscape's
home page and click on free soft-ware. it is excellent and easy
to set-up......blends right in.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:14 - ID#344308)

just saw on bloomberg....

another cb fixing to sell gold! missed which country....

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:16 - ID#24135)
what is the price of gold anyway??
To all
Surely there are many among you that can explain something to
me.. Almost all the mines in the world are disposing of their
production at hedged prices .. ranging from 320 to as high
as 410 .. What is going on here .. Who is buying say 90 % of
gold offtake as an average price of say 40-50 dollars above the
market and why and what are they doing with it?
Doesnt this strike anyone else as ODD ??

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:16 - ID#340459)
Folks; Today's News on little known but powerful- Multilateral Agreement on Investment (MAI)

France, US Head for Clash on Global Investment

By Tom Heneghan

PARIS ( Reuters ) - France and the United States squared up for a classic trade clash this week as three-year
negotiations on a controversial new global investment pact enter their final round at the OECD in Paris.

The accord sponsored by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development aims for a more level playing
field in global business by assuring equal treatment for both domestic and foreign investors in any signatory country.

Barely known beyond a small circle of trade experts, the Multilateral Agreement on Investment ( MAI ) has been called
"the constitution of a single global economy."

But, as the talks near their April deadline, France has cried foul and pledged to stay on the sidelines if the final accord
does not exclude cultural products such as books, films and television programs from worldwide competition.

"There will not be any deal if the 'cultural exception' principle is put into doubt," Prime Minister Lionel Jospin said.

The United States has also threatened not to sign MAI because, as Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky put it:
"This agreement at this stage is simply not good enough."

Envoys from the 29 OECD members and five other states will meet in Paris on Monday and Tuesday to try to
overcome these and other hurdles and pave the way for agreement at an annual OECD ministerial meeting on April

France -- which led the battle for the "cultural exception" in the 1986-1993 GATT Uruguay Round -- as well as the
United States and Canada have all said the negotiators could go into overtime.

Canada and Australia, both worried that their local film industries could be steamrollered by Hollywood, have spoken
out in favor of a "cultural exception."

Ottawa has gone even further, saying it would not sign any deal that did not leave it the last word on any rules
concerning its health, welfare, educational and aboriginal policies.

The negotiators face tough talks over national environmental protection laws, which ecology pressure groups say MAI
would undermine by allowing foreign companies to sue governments if they felt discriminated against.

France also threatens to reject MAI if it sanctions extra-territorial legislation such as the U.S. Helms-Burton law, which
seeks to block non-American companies from investing in Cuba, or the Iran Libya Sanctions Act ( ILSA ) .

"Better to have no agreement than a bad agreement," said Finance Minister Dominique Strauss-Kahn, adding the whole
European Union opposed the U.S. laws.

The basic idea behind MAI is to give "most favoured nation" treatment to all signatories, banning protectionist laws,
subsidies or other measures that allow a country to favour its home industries over foreign competition.

It would include "rollback" and "standstill" provisions obliging signatories to repeal current laws that conflict with the
accord's aims and not pass new restrictive legislation.

Thus in the worst-case scenario that has French filmmakers up in arms, Paris might have to scrap its wide-ranging film
subsidies -- bankrolled by a tax on cinema tickets -- or allow rich Hollywood studios to dip into the same pot.

OECD officials insist there are bound to be exceptions to this principle and negotiators could "carve out" sectors such
as culture from the final agreement.

Whether this happens depends on the negotiating skill of delegations opposed to a full opening of their markets.

With the polemics suddenly rising, OECD Secretary General Donald Johnston held a hasty news conference on Friday
"to put the record straight" on MAI.

"What we're talking about essentially is a mechanism which creates wealth and jobs," he said.

"There are some vested interests in all our countries that will fight any kind of deregulation, any kind of reform, because
they prefer the status quo."

Apart from the 29 members of the OECD, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Hong Kong and the Slovak Republic are taking
part in the negotiations as observers. MAI will be open to non-OECD members once it is signed.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:16 - ID#28585)
...Yes, that's right, my squeaky voiced buddy.

Witte is certainly over-compensated by gold mining standards. She has a lot vested in that company...and ultimately that is why it remains in her best interests to augment its value...and in her greed, it certainly might make sense to stir up a problem so that she can regain those million shares that were once hers at a much lower and affordable price.

In the end analysis, I always make the most money when I assume the most cynical motives on the part of corporate managements. I make the most money when I accept the rampant and common manipulation of companies and markets.

Only when I assume a "naive, mainstream" perpective on investments do I get a good kick in the ass...for example, Pegasus...I was too optimistic about the "forgiveness" of its creditors.

Only when I get frightened ( like a scared little mouse ) do I usually get screwed in my investments.

I've learned these rules over many years, augmenting my wealth significantly. In doing so, I've accumulated enough of a stash where my fear level has dissipated to almost nothing.

Bottom line: I love to step in when the mice are running around frightened.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:20 - ID#329157)
ANOTHER's text
ANOTHER wrote on January 17th 20:45 "...But, for those of need for reason, read from one who speaks to me", clearly quoting an article ( Yet Another?! ) from someone. Today ANOTHER advises us ( 14:40 ) to "please read". My impression is that what is being quoted is either a published article ( but no-one has written in Kitco recognising any as such, and I have not succeeded in finding said text on the 'net ) or a private advisory, such as would be given to persons of rank by their advisors. However, against this second hypothesis is that the style is remarkably unlike typical official prose ( as we know it in the West ) , so ( noting the phrase, as did SDRer__A also, "As my friend would say, "you think long and hard on this" ) we are drawn to the conclusion that it is advice from someone who is personally close to ANOTHER and shares ANOTHER's world view, in the same "school of thought" if you like. Whether "official prose" in the East follows the same turgid officialese styling as in the West, I do not know.
ANOTHER has told us directly about the sources of advice ( Feb 7, 18:45 ) : "...Is this not true? I am slow, but many think for me. Read please:..."


(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:20 - ID#93232)
When I review a previous time period in "short text" mode and select a post for full text to read..after I have read and hit the back button, it then takes me to a "Warnings expired", which necessitates that I go back to the main menu to "re" select the same old time period so that I can read the next old post. I know this will be Greek! Best I could do...I'm on Internet Explorer 4.0

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:23 - ID#28585)
Listen, rodent breath ( and I say that with great affecton ) , a S.Africa gold strike might be exactly what is needed to send a sharp zing into the international gold market.

Something must be done to let investors and CB's realize that the gold supply spigot is truly shutting off.

I would not be surprised if a S. African gold strike were tacitly supported and encouraged by the SA government.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:25 - ID#344308)


here is the vice url cpoied and pasted-->

here is the url typed minus the ( http:// )

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:26 - ID#24135)
you rather be minnie or Bluto - your choice??
for Minnie/Bluto/farfel
Your investment strategy seems to be based on the movement
of mice ... now Ive heard everything..
Have you noticed them leaving a sinking ship?? and the captain
goes down - greedbag or not - along with any stowaways

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:26 - ID#93232)
Still didn't get 'em...OhWell!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:27 - ID#28585)
Did you hear the latest my furry friend? Disney is trying to create another retail franchise...they are creating MIRAMAX stores??

Have you heard of Miramax? If so, then you are probably a member of the 5% American minority that has.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:30 - ID#225283)
Airbus Crash in Taiwan

THE head of the Central Bank of Taiwan was killed along with 200 others today during an AIRBUS' aborted landing procedure in "big fog"...Any comments on how this may hurt one of the better performing asian economies.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:34 - ID#24135)
just a couple of swells...
Now you listen, Bluto sweat, and I say that with the affection
that only a rodent is capable of, I really doubt that the
completely convoluted proposition that you have put forward
has any merit whatsoever. But what the heck it's a topsy
turvy world we live in .. and I doubt if a cartoon mouse
and a hairy armpit are going to be the ones to straighten
it out.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:36 - ID#34883)
cherokee_A 16:07
URL's work fine here.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:36 - ID#234218)
@Studio-R re: warning msg coming back from full view
I too am running Explorer 4.0. However, I'm not having any problems. I have been told though that tequila in the keyboard causes this. Just a thought.

Spud Master
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:37 - ID#273112)
Right-o re. "Another"'s latest text. It doesn't "read" like previous "Another". Obviously "Another" has a ) ghost writers, b ) "Another" is a team of writers, or c ) "Another" is making marvelous progress in his/her/its use of American grammar/slang.

give me a break.

Spud, moving "Another"'s posts beside my $3 bill collections and my one page encyclopedia of "Truthful Things I have Uttered" By Bill Clinton.

Psilver Psyched
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:39 - ID#216217)
My Netscape appears to be working fine. I return to where I started.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:41 - ID#288157)
To Mr. John Disney
The Joseph Conrad, The Secret Sharer Award, for posing the Core Question: What is the real price of gold?
Mr. Disney, my heartfelt thanks!

Studio.R@Cherokee's.Olin.url. I got in! And if anyone would have problems, I do not doubt it would be moi! So how do we explain this--I'm getting VERY paranoid... ( and thanks for a fine read Cherokee )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:46 - ID#329157)
@Spud Master@STUDIO.R 16:37
Mr Spud Master: Your view on these thoughts?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:49 - ID#28585)
In spite of all my teasing, I must say that I am impressed with your strong micro knowledge of gold mining companies.

There is no doubt you know more than your fair share.

Yet, sometimes, I you fully understand the difference between trading value and fundamental value?

After all, Mr. Disney, if fundamentals were the sole determinant of a stock's value, then the DOW would be trading at 4000...not 8000.

As you probably know, I have written many essays on this forum calling for radical shifts in perception where gold is concerned. Such a perceptual shift would have major positive effects on POG...despite the fundamental realities of a world awash in gold ( Yes, I know, there is far less gold than paper money! However, there is no denying the existence of at least 10 years gold consumption locked away in CB vaults ) .

My point is this: for example, RYO, all the worst case fundamentals are already in...the company has been declared a dead dog now ever since late '97. Therefore, all the fundamental disciples of value investing ( like yourself ) have disappeared from the company.

Now, the only real determinant of value in the company lies in the arena of perception. Of course, the perception is easily manipulated... a one sentence statement packs enormous punch...a press release even more so.

But, on a fundamental basis, the company effectively disappeared half a year ago and the share price today reflects that. So, there is far more upside potential now than downside potential. The same analogous reality applies to the POG itself.

Until you fully appreciate this fact, then I doubt you will ever make substantive profits on your investments.

At this point, the fundamentals really hardly matter anymore.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:51 - ID#93232)
You're right to feel that Another...however; I'm starting to sway toward him a are other non-Kitcoites that are monitoring him. I've had three phone calls re him this p.m.. He sure doesn't "fall" for my slight of hand remarks.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:52 - ID#26793)
Answer to Disney Quiz
A good quality man's suit

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:55 - ID#280215)
Return from full text
Thanks to all that have replied to my request so far. I was leaning towards it being the Internet Explorer 3.0 software. However, I tested on other sites. I don't get this problem with other links in other sites, and/or other bulletin boards that make you select full text. That's why I'm still wondering if it's specific to the Kitco software. Bart, any thoughts on this?

Sorry to keep bring this up. I have a call in to my company's Tech services group. But based on past experience, I might not get a response till Memorial Day. So I have to count on you guys. Thanks again!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:57 - ID#333131)
SDRer and John Disney, the price of gold
Imagine this. A futures market with far out dates of delivery trading 100's of times more volume than close in dates or spot. Then imagine that those far out dates have considerable risk priced into their prices because of the risk of non delivery. The far out dates ( paper gold ) would dominate the spot price because of their trading volume, hence the spot price would take on the risk negative premium of the paper. Spot becomes a terrific bargain but can't be touched by big players in paper without blowing up their paper. So, you can't tell the real price of gold because spot is being traded as if it had the same risk as the paper. Just a thought.

Lan Man
(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:57 - ID#320108)
Y2K Authors Sees De Facto Gold Standard Ahead
You can read the article at url:

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:58 - ID#93232)
Geese Us!.....Now I can't get CJS's 16:46....
BART....Where do I send my cheque? I've been a good boy....please...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:58 - ID#333232)
Hope these aren't too old
ECB Gold holdings ( no surprises )

Russian backed ( ? ) assasination plot

Cherokee - no problem with URLs @ IE4.0

(Mon Feb 16 1998 16:59 - ID#288295)
Spud Master

This posting certainly does shoot a few holes in his credibility, what? Obviously an American ANOTHER to File 13, methinks - and I was pretty much on board until now.

Spud Master
(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:03 - ID#273112)
when "Another" first most humbly submitted most unworthy comments last year, Another use of round-eye words was anything but smooth.

In his/herits second incarnation, Another's english smoothes out, but still reflects "translation" syntax.

Today's "Another" post reads like a Wall Street bookie too huried to carry out the subterfuge.

In fact, I've "felt" Another change from "Asian" to "Arab" to "Western" in his words. Quite unlike our friend JIN, who is remarkable consistent.

I don't know what "Another" is, or what their game is, but they are most definitely playing a game. Could be boring old sadistic pleasure from watching a bunch of supposed Kitco "Pros" slobber & pontificate over Another's hocus-pocus. I can just see Another chortling away.

One thing for sure - Bart knows where Another is coming from.

Spud, skeptical leg-before-wicket-person

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:04 - ID#26793)
Shevardnadze gets a new armoured Mercedes

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:09 - ID#24135)
A dog is not always man's best friend
For Farfel
for background .. Ive made substantive profits .. dear fellow.
.. quit work over 15 years ago.. lived only on investments...
I ONLY buy things I think are undervalued on the basis of
fundamentals .. I'd have made a lot more if I didnt try to
pick bottoms .. timing is my problem .. Ive been in THIS gold
market much too early this time .. In 1993 I was spot on both
in and out..
and in 1986-8... Got Out day of top in .. was it 1981
and quit job... But getting sloppy and lazy and greedy ..
but fundamentals will carry me through.. Perceptions wont
do much for anybody..

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:09 - ID#26395)
For bandwidth pundits and conspiracy theorists.
Delphi, WetGold. Thanks for your efforts in providing helpful ideas about how we can reduce bandwidth consumption. The problem lies in that even if we were to cut data transfer in half it still costs money and is still a major part of the cost of keeping this site going. Our objective is to have the discussion group not only pay for itself now, but also generate extra revenues to re-invest in the group. You'll see the changes if we get enough subscribers.

Midas & Haggis: Please take the time read the rules of engagement ( ) and then let me know if you think the nature of your messages are consistent with the guidelines set out on our netiquette page.

silver plate
(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:10 - ID#290394)
cherokee: regarding your 16:14. all bloomberg said was "concern of central banks selling gold lowered gold price" no mention of any particular one.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:14 - ID#287277)
Carl, you're a wonder! It is 'crazy' enough to be a real possibility!.
Now, my friend, can you whip up an algorithm that will provide
a 'price'--

Re: Another--In our virtual village we need not worry about Another's physical being. He offers interesting puzzles in a fascinating
guise and I--for one--have learned from the experience. What more
do we have a right to ask?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:18 - ID#28585)
Obviously, fundamental value investing can pay off handsomely...look at old Warren B. He is one of the experts in that realm.

However, with fundamentally sound companies, you can wait a much longer time for a decent payoff ( as you seem to be discovering ) . Be like Warren B. and wait until you're entering your old age to make nice money...over $10 billion dollars and now he's at a point in his life where it's exciting to stay up past 11:00 at night.

The reality is this: if the POG suddenly spikes up again, there is far more trading upside to fundamentally "unsound" companies like RYO than a fundamentally sounder company like Barrick.

If you do not realize that fact, then I all I can say is "Good Luck."

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:20 - ID#368244)
The Golden Answer
Well I'm back! Almost got blown away, sustained winds here between 80-130 miles per hour, that lasted two hours. Sustained about 300m in property damage--- What's new ?

Some weeks ago I posted a report from the Federal Reserve Board about the liquidation of all gold by governments, it's effect on mines and the price of gold. No one seemed very impressed by it. In fact, some said they had known about it for months. I printed this document, and have read it many times, and I think the fact it exists is quite alarming. It is my expereince that Governments always have motives for anything they do.
Mines should be screaming about it, you should be screaming about it, and it barely creates a ripple. I think some of our resident experts should examine this document closely. I believe it contains answers for at least some of our QUESTIONS.

One last thing , me thinks someone is trying to profit off of a man named Another.

Bully Beef
(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:24 - ID#259282)
On spam in the pan
Thanx for replies. I won't be eating as well as farful and disney. I will simply have to hold the precious metal fund and wait for better times. Spam with a muscatel.Fruity and full bodied.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:26 - ID#288295)


(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:26 - ID#28585)
@DISNEY...MEANWHILE I"VE GOT TO RUN BECAUSE IT'S WIFE-TIME... spite of any profits I have made in the past, I will always answer to my boss. She doesn't pay me stock options or salary for that matter...but she still has me doing handflips.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:29 - ID#26793)
I like your answer to the Disney Quiz better than mine.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:30 - ID#257136)
ANOTHER'S posts!! At the outset of his recent post,
he makes mention of something which sounded ( read ) to me as if he was referencing ( using the entire article as example ) somehthing which he ( another ) considers to be of value and substantive.
But what do I know?

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:33 - ID#24135)
Its a topsy turvy world .. Ill say.
For Farfel
Thanks for the good wishes.. Your view is flawed however..
The principle of big gains on marginals always applies .. and I
would always go for them BUT they must have significant RESERVES..
RYO really doesnt ... BUT BUY IT .. ENJOY ... REAP the BENEFITS.
I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT... BECAUSE if RYO and Kinross and Amax
go up.. MY STOCKS are gonna go Bananas..
For Carl and SDRer
There we have it .. a real conundrum.. I jump up and down
because every NA mine is above the "spot" gold price. But
almost no one is selling at this price. Even Durban Deep
who refused to hedge in the past .. has started hedging.
So .. If everbodys hedging at spot plus 50 say .. how can
they be selling k-rands at spot plus a couple of bucks ..
I find this really hard to understand. WHO is taking ABX
offtake at 410$/oz and what are they doing with it?.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:33 - ID#333131)
SDRer, On the price of gold
As a simple algorithm, say we take the utility involved in a simple bet. We have to estimate what the probability is of paper gold being good "as gold" and also take the time value of money used in the bet over the term of the bet. Suppose the probabilty of actually getting delivery of gold is .5 over 2 years and the time value of money is 16% over that time. Then, if one is willing to pay $300 for this bet, that means that the real price of gold is about $700. This is about what Donald said - the price of a new suit. Other assumed risks would of course give other prices.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:35 - ID#20748)
Iraq warns Quwait

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:38 - ID#329157)
Spud Master 17:03
I believe your point should not be forgotten lest goldbugs become led astray by thoughts of $30000 gold and we must always remember the nagging doubts about whether gold will continue to be capped to $400 or less. However, I think the most reasonable scenario is that of Frank Veneroso, where gold may climb to $600 or thereabouts. I note ANOTHER's prediction that gold would not fall below $280 has held up- so far. As for $30000, it is nice to dream...
A sentence in "Commodex news" leapt out at me, knowing of ANOTHER's gold-for-oil thesis: "The 1979/80 trend was as much the result of a confidence crisis as it was a response to soaring commodity and energy prices. Some may recall rumors that O.P.E.C. was considering gold for oil payments" - you can read it at

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:40 - ID#20748)
IRAQ-The day's events

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:42 - ID#20748)

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:44 - ID#316200)
Kenneth Coleman's input re oil & gold prices
Mr Coleman sees higher prices when the euro is established.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:51 - ID#93232)
Am I to infer that you feel that I may be drinking while at my hobby? As far as I know, this loving rum that I speak of is known to be a performance enhancement lubricant for all forms of existence, including keyboards...on the other hand, tequila is a life-altering substance...which I fear. Tolerant#1...will argue this matter...but he's far too emotional about tequila. IMDrunkenO

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:55 - ID#153102)
The United States Empire
When the Constitution for the United States of America was debated in the Virginia convention for ratification. Patrick Henry stated that the form of the proposed goverment was designed to advance purposes of commerce and international prestige, what he called ambitions for empire. It has succeeded in those ambitions, beyond, perhaps, even the dreams of Publius, Alexander Hamilton.

The United States has established a global commercial empire upon the legal foundation of the U.S. Constitution. As a commercial empire, it depends more on co-operation than on coercion. Coercion is the last resort and there is almost always some legality for it. There are three legs on which it stands: a legal leg, a military leg, and a financial leg. U.S. influence on the international legal system is acceptable around the world for commercial purposes because there is precedent in it for adjudication of every type of transaction. The human rights portion of the legal system also wins friends. The U.S. commercial empire succeeds overseas because it finds friends and interests who benefit from participation in the empire and co-operate locally to advance its aims. In the first place, they benefit from commerce made possible by the military power. Commerce requires sea lanes free of pirates and key land trade routes clear of bandits. The military leg of the US commercial empire provides this modicum of world peace. The friends of the US commercial empire at home and abroad also benefit from investment by way of grants and loans and from government policy in general. In the second place, they benefit from protection. Military protection of borders and regimes. In the third place, they benefit from having governance roles in the empire. Treaties and conventions made under U.N. auspices provides a great host of offices of governance for the friends of the empire. Patrick Henry predicted the new federal government would erect offices with which to reward its promoters and proponents. The U.N. and innummerable commissions and boards serve the same aim internationally.

But, it is the financial leg which is the most important. Without the greenback, there would be no U.S. commercial empire. The greenback funds the military power, the grants to friends, and everything else. Domestically, the greenback exists because of the legal tender law. The greenback has the force of legality behind it. If someone tenders you a greenback for a debt, the law considers the debt discharged whether you accept the greenback or not. The only way to collect a debt is by greenback. The greenback is triumphant domestically. So much so that not even one American in 100 realizes gold and silver coin is the Constitutional means to pay debt or the significance of it. The international scene is another matter. Internationally, the greenback after Bretton Woods functioned as a reserve currency with steadily diminishing gold redeemability in balance of payments settlements. In 1971 gold redeemability was cancelled. Immediately, OPEC began repricing oil to adjust for the inflation of the greenback. The U.S. negotiated a modus vivendi with OPEC soon after. If Another and Ken Coleman are believed, this modus vivendi involved an oil-greenback-gold relationship that would maintain the price of oil against gold. ( It would be informative to know when the BIS began valuing its gold capital at $208 per oz. ) The strength of the greenback both domestically and internationally as a reserve currency resides in unlimited credit. Unlimited credit means, theoretically, an end to illiguidity as a financial danger. This strength is compromised if the greenback is tied to anything of substance. When it is, it is no longer unlimited.

The greenback has achieved the same legal tender status internationally in four areas that it has domestically in all transactions. First, oil sales are settled in greenbacks. Second, it has a legal reserve value of face value. Third, all derivatives transactions must be settled in greenbacks. Fourth, by subsidizing grain sales with greenbacks, the U.S. makes the greenback a dominant currency in grain transactions. From these lynchpin positions, the greenback gains yet more supporters as the monetary unit of most convenience for international trade of all types. There are two fatal threats on the horizon.

The first threat is that recounted by Another. By managing down the price of gold to manage down the price of oil, the mangers of the greenback have 1. seriously decreased gold production supply and 2. unwittingly stimulated and underestimated the monetary demand for gold. All of the sources of that monetary demand are not known, but China and the Mid-East are known sources. Private parties, in Hong Kong and in Europe, are also potential sources. I believe the impending crisis in the oil-greenback-gold relationship is at the root of the campaign against Iraq. I believe April Glaspie intentionally deceived Saddam Hussein, after the U.S. had armed him, to create an immediate threat to the oil monarchies after Iraq's victory over Iran had diminished the Iran threat. The U.S. is in the Persian Gulf, filling the vacuum created when the British retreated West of Suez, because of the McMahon doctrine. I'll let you research that topic on your own. Suffice it to say, the U.S. needs to raise the price of its protection to manage the oil-greenback-gold relationship though its crisis. It urgently needs to reduce the monetary demand for gold and it is doing eveything it can to do so, by propaganda, by politics, by attacking gold as a money laundering substance, by leaking reports from the Fed, and by saber rattling.

The second threat is, I believe, more out of sight, but more serious. This is the threat from derivatives, the $100 Trillion crazy aunt in the attic. And here the threat is due to the fact legal enforcement of derivatives contracts in a foreign jurisdiction cannot be depended on when a country enters an economic crisis. The derivatives threat is magnified because apparently physical gold was involved in it as security or for leverage. Hence, the desperate measures to influence Suharto and hence the alarm over the Korean court order holding up payment to a New York bank for a derivatives trade. These people have no greenbacks to settle derivatives contracts and do not want to borrow. It is a liquidity crisis that was, theoretically, supposed to be impossible. In the wings are derivatives contracts which would have to be enforced in Japanese and Chinese courts and perhaps even in Russian courts. Will they ? When the scene outside the courtroom looks like Jakarta today ? Make your plans according to your answer to that question.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:57 - ID#227290)
Spud Master & ANOTHER

Spud Master wrote: "Today's "Another" post reads like a Wall Street bookie too huried to carry out the subterfuge."

Well put, my good man.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 17:58 - ID#237299)
Can someone with more understanding of the metals trade
please help my confusion.

First, as for the recent ANOTHER post. If he was a prankster trying
to sustain a long hoax, I seriously doubt, given some of the well
considered answers in the past, that the facade would be allowed
to fall so miserably and abruptly. My opinion is that a translator wrote the
last one. Time will tell. As someone pointed out; Bart knows the source.

None the less, an interesting point was raised:

Isn't the ten tons of open interest that was mentioned actually
rolling over, or being bought and sold, continuously? So that
this unsettled volumn remains approximately the same all the time?
( with fluctuations )

If so, ten tons isn't a very large amount, settled by any CB with ease.
Why would this amount cause any worries?

OR___ is this a *cumulative* amount? growing daily.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:00 - ID#333131)
SDRer, John Disney & Donald
One more crazy thought on the real price of gold. It occurs to me that given the "paper driving the spot" scenario which I proposed, as the perceived probability of actual delivery goes down, paradoxically it would drive the price of paper gold down and put downward pressure on the spot. Could that be what we have been seeing?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:08 - ID#26793)
Well said at 17:55 ( as usual ) . As I pointed out yesterday, the Morgan-Korea story is a major event.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:09 - ID#93232)
I believe that the estimate should have read 10,000 Tons=sold position. And yes, that is an extremely worrisome number. A year's production is "bet" each day.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:10 - ID#222231)
Gold & Drugs?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:14 - ID#243180)
Mucho gracias re: the Chart,,,, I've brightened it up somewhat with a jpg viewer. Thanx again...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:14 - ID#93232)
@mozel...KUDOS.... @17:55
Derivatives...."$100 Trillion crazy aunt in the attic"....damn, that's well put! And, a lucid and helpful explanation of the oil/gold/greenback trilogy. Thank you greatly.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:16 - ID#26793)
Yes it could. And we should be taking every advantage of it. Be thankful for an extended opportunity to line up your ducks in a neat row. Then pull the trigger.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:20 - ID#237299)
@Studio.R, Thank you sir.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:41 - ID#287358)
John Disney
I haven't seen Newmont Mining numbers yet. They are expected to earn ,21 in the fourth quarter and .85 for 1998. Barrick is one of the lowestest cost producers. I believe you made a mistake on Barricks production costs. You can see for yourself at

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:44 - ID#258129)
Bart, thank you for reply. For sure, Kitco discussion forum will have a lot of subscribers. But at the same time some people will be lost with introduction of participation fee. You know, "Internet mentality" - everything for free and better with bonus. We are all used to see adds on top or bottom of almost every page - look at, yahoo, etc. No one is forced to follow these links. But they deliver money, probably much more then subscription can. Maybe this is the right way?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:46 - ID#257136)
Did you know there is gold in Arkansas?
It was mined there before and who knows? It may be again!
Follow the url and gewt a look at part of the area.

Don't blame us fer ol' b.j.!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:47 - ID#288295)

A brilliant essay, sir!

The derivatives market, and the gold and silver markets, were SUPPOSED to be zero-sum games. Not. I think there are some very nervous people in high places with all of these possibilities.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:47 - ID#20748)
Thanks for your 17:55. What we have seen so far is only the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:51 - ID#93232)
@Isure...of what? your 17:20....
The Federal Reserve's note ( greenback ) will not stand the risk of selling its gold semi-collateral, especially, it light of the increasing possibility of losing its "reserve currency" status to the Euro or Yen/Yuan. Rather, the Fed would sell Yellowstone before it would sell Yellowmetal, IMHO. Somebody else's gold scares the Fed, like gold held in Chinese, Japanese, and European central banks ( strong hands ) .

Hell, Exxon or BHP would buy what the Fed's got for sell if it were offered in the mid to lower $200 range. Why not buy a huge load of a strategic commodity/currency at below cost? We oil guys are buying oil in the ground based on a single digit ROI, with escalated pricing....this is how low-risk investment feels...touch it, my man.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:52 - ID#20748)
IRAQ-Breaking stories
Go here and click on latest news

Lurker 777
(Mon Feb 16 1998 18:55 - ID#317247)
ANOTHER it is time to come out of the closet.

The regrettable part of this riddle is ANOTHER gets more honor and respect than the author of the posts and we will never know which one of us is really him.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:04 - ID#288295)
Lurker 777

Only BART ( and Lois Lane ) knows the identity of ANOTHER...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:07 - ID#153102)
@ Donald @HighRise @ Silverbaron @NJ @Tolerant1
@Donald: the Morgan-Korea story made me start to think about "international legal tender". Your posts are always on target.

@HighRise You're welcome. I benefit from your posts, too.

@Silverbaron Thanks for the kind word.

@NJ It looka to me like a berg bigga enuf to sinka Titanic.

@Tolerant1 Birth certificating is not, in my studied opinion, unlawful or unconstitutional or the evidence of any pledge. It's an activity of government akin to the census.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:10 - ID#433286)
Re: Another
I thought a thought but the thought I thought wasn't the thought I thought I thought.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:11 - ID#153102)
The post for HighRise was meant for you. I do benefit from his posts, too, though.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:12 - ID#26395)
Step right up... get yer advertising.
Delphi: We're doing it. Advertising space is officially on sale.

Remember that the fee is only to use "full text" which is where it costs us money. Everything else remains free.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:19 - ID#28594)
Carl@at.algorithm W O W !!!! You are quite incredible!

Mozel@well.written.well.thought What a pleasure! At this site, we masticated that dried jerky for a long and bitter time. "Why mine? we wondered...sell forward at 420, buy spot at 380 and save on overhead! But of course, this is another of the lies...BECAUSE it makes NO sense.

Lurker 777
(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:21 - ID#317247)
How much $$$ to reveal the true identity ANOTHER. Come on everyone got a price!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:23 - ID#243212)

Carl @18:00 "Paper chasing the spot" is really an element in the idea of "Paper chasing the PHYSICAL POG" that has been bothering me since last summer, and is being reinforced by people like yourself and ANOTHER...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:23 - ID#270315)
To all

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:25 - ID#368244)
If I touch much more I' m gonna have to get a skin graft. I never, I repeat I never , thought for one minute the U. S. had any intentions of selling its gold, but how do you think a report of this nature might affect other countries, and their outlook on gold sales? How do you think it might affect mines outlooks on forward sales? Hell, I wish they would sell it all, at least this constant threat would be removed. Last but not least, I believe that at least some of the mines are involved in something mighty fishy.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:37 - ID#368346)
Sunshine Mining, does anyone know why the stock isn't moving? They have huge reserves and very low production costs. Buy People BUY

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:39 - ID#60253)

Date: Mon Feb 16 1998 18:09

STUDIO.R ( @Obsidian.... ) ID#93232:

I believe that the estimate should have read 10,000 Tons=sold position.

Thank you,

My good friend did not place three 0s. My thoughts come thru one computer, but move far thru time and ones in line. I will return.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:40 - ID#401460)



(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:42 - ID#28594)
Run for cover...I've just had a wild and crazy thought...
Re: gold pricing...
I have felt--as you all know--that the bonds that Germany,
China, Japan hold are new Roosa bonds, denominated in gold...
So--What if the US government/Fed/ has a People's Bank of
China kind of arrangement with selected mines. THAT would
explain the inexplicable 'who would buy at these prices'...

It makes a terrible kind of sense folks...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:42 - ID#93232)
@Isure..I got ya"....
To date, I think the U.S. has cleverly played this nasty game of confide and deceive. Look at the buck...nuff said, huh? AG is a bad dude, no doubt. But now.....
'Tis time to give up some ground...or risk losing even more. Dollar weakens, gold strengthens and so forth. At least the mines can't hedge anymore at a profit...and some are starting to buy back hedges. I think the institutional "shorter" is plenty wary also. C.B.'s probably think waiting would be better than acting...and I think they will be rewarded for their hesitantcy.
Glad you got gold burns...try rum ointment.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:43 - ID#31868)
I stress once again my friend Birth REGISTRATION is the key word, not certificating. Therein lies what appears to be another legal slight of words by the bums in the District of Columbia.

But, like I said I am still researching and have no concrete information. I have seen various papers on the subject and will find it.

Patience, please, I have a brain the size of an ant, and it is a little ant at that.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:43 - ID#26793)
Discussion of Islamic banking and gold

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:46 - ID#153102)
@ Silverbaron @SDRer @JohnD
@Silverbaron If the purpose of the saber rattling over Iraq really is for the purpose of getting a higher price for U.S. protection in the gulf and hence indirectly reducing monetary demand for gold, there must be monetary demand from some U.S. protected Mid-East monarch. My guess is still the Sabah family. It also runs a risk of being counter-productive if it increases political insecurity in general. This makes Netanyahu a real fly in the ointment. The one thing that is perfectly clear is that the U.S. is pulling out all the stops to reduce monetary demand for gold.

@SDRer Thanks for the compliment. I enjoy your posts as well.

@JohnD The Australian CB gold did not go through London. It was publicized as part of the US campaign against a monetary role for gold. Otherwise, we would not necessarily even know about it. But Comex stocks keep going down. Who is taking delivery is the 64K question. How many gold loans were made in tons is a good 32K question I think. What sets the price for OTC transactions is at least a 16K question.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:48 - ID#393224)
ANOTHER--may I humbly suggest that you do not let 'another' translate your THOUGHTS into words. The message was destroyed by the messenger. Cheers, Nick.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:50 - ID#368346)
I have been reading everyone's comments at Kitco now for about a month. I have a very high respect for many of you. I have been a long time gold bug and have taken my share of beatings. I have a substantial play with SSC and have been let down with their performance. When will silver stocks reflect silver prices? Anybody?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:53 - ID#22956)
**Well Done Bart**
Advertising is good and I am sure that you will find A-WAY to do it with class. It can be done very non-offensive...

Contact those Miller Beer guys. They have a great campaign right now ( has anyone seen the new comm. w/ that dude in a beaver outfit eating the log cabin and then he goes after the guy with the wooden leg?? ) ...a riot...... ( belly laughing ) ...yuk ,yuk.

DO IT! Get Real! Get Gold! 1-900-555-1212... ( $9.90Can/minute ) . Operators 'standing' by. We can talk about gold one-on-one or in private. .... ( Hmmmmmm... ) ... Operators 'standing' by.

Go bart!



(Mon Feb 16 1998 19:57 - ID#26793)
@Mozel; Gold and the BIS
The authorised share capital of the Bank is 1,500 million gold francs,
divided into 600,000 shares of equal nominal value ( 2,500 gold francs
per share ) . At the close of the financial year 517,125 shares were in
issue and, in accordance with Article 7 of the Statutes of the BIS, they
are paid up to the extent of 25% of their nominal value ( 625 gold francs
per share ) . The amount of the paid-up capital appearing in the Balance
Sheet of the BIS at 31st March 1997 thus stands at 323.2 million gold

The gold franc of the BIS has a gold weight of just over 0.29 of a
gramme of fine gold, which is identical with the gold parity of the Swiss
franc from the foundation of the BIS in 1930 until September 1936
when, after a number of leading countries had left the gold standard, the
gold parity of the Swiss franc was suspended. The BIS employs the
gold franc solely as a unit of account for balance-sheet purposes, assets
and liabilities in US dollars being converted into gold francs at the fixed
rate of US$ 208 per ounce of fine gold ( equivalent to 1 gold franc =
US$ 1.94 ) and all other items in currencies being converted into gold
francs on the basis of market rates against the US dollar.

When the Bank's initial capital was issued, the subscribing institutions
were given the option of taking up the whole of their respective national
issues of shares or of arranging for those shares to be subscribed by the
public. As a result, part of the Belgian and French issues and the whole
of the American issue are not held by the institutions to which they were
originally allocated. In all, some 86% of the Bank's issued share capital
is registered in the names of central banks, the remaining 14% being held
by private shareholders. While all shares carry equal rights with respect
to the annual dividend, private shareholders have no right to attend or
vote at General Meetings of the BIS, since all rights of voting and
representation are reserved for the central bank of the country in which
the relevant national issue of shares was initially subscribed.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:00 - ID#41229)
Do not know where you got in @ I'm up over 80% in SSC, be patient, when 1st qtrs earning come out I think some of the day traders, which seem to drive the channeling of this stock, will get overwhelmed by instutional buying, also if we have a scare in the tech stocks and blue chips SSC is a well known and established company that is poised to launch. Timing could not be better for SSC. But what do I know, Just a novice.

Bart: You need to talk to your employees and get ANOTHER's accent to remain constant. {:+ )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:00 - ID#31868)
Banking is a seperate business and should have nothing to do with the International System of Payments.

Banking is a completely seperate affair. The International System of Payments must be based on something with tangible value, something that for thousands of years has been of value.

Hmmmmm, would that not be gold?

Let the bankers bank and run their own affairs.

Perch the International System of Payements on the backbone of gold and all these currency problems will disappear in a heartbeat.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:01 - ID#286199)
Inquisitor & SSC
What constitutes a significant move? SSC traded in 1997 for well below a dollar per share and recently hit $1.50. If you bought at 1 and sold at 1.5 you made 50%. If you bought at .75 and sold at 1.5 you doubled your money. Some of the people who post here did just that. Here's a link with 180 posts on SSC.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:01 - ID#22956)



(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:10 - ID#288295)

It seems to me that either of your two triggers - the unwinding of the oil/gold arrangements OR an uncontrollable derivative meltdown, would be such a threat to the USG and its fiat money system,that they would certainly use ANY means within their power to eliminate the problem of gold and silver competition with fiat dollars, at least within their legal jurisdiction. Your thoughts on this - if you have any to offer, please. My sense is that we may have a little warning by the price of oil and gold, if #1 happens; the #2 may come upon us with no warning at all.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:13 - ID#209265)
What the US is really up to in Iraq
Go to for one piece of the puzzle.

Also, Egypt's president Mubarak recently made an announcement warning the US against partitioning Iraq. Now just what gave Mubarak the urge to make such an announcement. This manoeuvering in Iraq has been going on behind the scenes since before the ZipperGate scandal erupted, and the real rationales go far deeper that the "Wag the Dog" scenario that people are proposing.

Some strange things have been going on between the US, Turkey & Iran.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:18 - ID#26793)
Discussion of Swiss gold reserves and its role in backing currency

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:19 - ID#153102)
@ Silverbaron
@Silverbaron I think I would reverse the order. The warning on number 2, the liquidity crisis from derivatives mishaps, is coming through daily from Donald's posts. The LBMA will just not open for business one morning if the oil-greenback-gold relationship collapses and a short squeeze default on delivery crisis ensues. Like a bank holiday.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:22 - ID#28594)
Donald, your BIS stats (well done, incidently!)
Some weeks ago I posted a BOJ footnote that declared that BIS had requested that they ( BOJ ) purchase 4800 shares of BIS stock. Would
this have been as financial 'shoring' because of Japanese banking

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:22 - ID#7568)

gold / oil, 1977 - 1997.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:23 - ID#288295)

I think short selling and profit taking does takes its toll in the short run. I don't own SSC, but I share the same thoughts in reference to SSRIF and PAASF....None of these shares are fully valued at present....All in good time, I trust....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:28 - ID#7568)

Interesting idea, but wouldn't the far out contracts be cheaper than spot if there was delivery risk? If I were a buyer of future gold and thought that in the event of a significant squeeze or some other event that my stuff would not be showing up, I would certainly not be paying more for this feature.

P.S. Keep up the contributions. You've got a good mind.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:29 - ID#153102)
Roosa Bonds ? How many are outstanding ?

Does it not strike someone besides me as ODD to the max that the same government which says there is no monetary role for gold is backing bonds with gold ? Even if it's only prospectively ?

How in hell did they get the Aussies and Canadians and Argentines to sell their gold is another 64K question.

Any government in the world including the U.S. government could be buying gold mine forwward sales.

I have to conclude that this media propaganda campaign against a monetary role for gold is aimed at nobody but the little guy. Roosa bonds clinches it for me.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:30 - ID#31868)
The US Government is bound by the Constitution to coin money in gold and silver. They have no legal recourse. FDR was a traitor and the act of confiscation was un-Constitutional. Plain and simple.

At some point the government will be challenged on all fronts as it has usurped the Constitution and no longer serves the people, but is served by the people.

When the economic downturn hits, and it surely will, there will be radical changes. In addition, Y2K will also bring about major changes.

A great deal of misery is on the way. Nobody, no entity is in charge any longer. This economic mess the politicians and bankers have created and the people have allowed will wreak havoc on the globe.

There can be no law when the lawmakers play by different rules than the people they are elected to serve.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:32 - ID#330175)
To Bart from Cape Breton
Bart: I PRESUME Cape Bretoners will NOT have to pay for this forum once it becomes fee-based......How bout a somethin~~~~~

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:32 - ID#288295)

Actually, I was considering the effects that a major derivative-caused insolvency might have in the overnight lending market, and the chain-reaction that would quickly follow because of the fractional reserve banking base.

In either case ( if it occurs ) it will be very interesting to find out whether our strategy of holding gold, silver, platinum metal is of any real and practical use - when the witch hunt begins.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:34 - ID#261267)
Hey goldbug/conspiracy theorists!

Just thought I'd stop in at the ol' GoldBug/Conspiracy Theory page and see how y'all are doing. First question: Does anybody have any hair left?
Second Question: Can you guys really stand each other after all this time? Well hey, anyway, goodluck and look on the bright side, maybe your kids kids will benefit from the intense "vision" that you've all had on metals.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:34 - ID#26793)
I recall a post I made about 4 or more weeks ago where the Japanese MOF ( since booted from office ) made a rush trip to BIS for a meeting. No details were given and the post is no longer available. Maybe just getting legal defense money from his Swiss account.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:35 - ID#257136)
Silver Baron: I too have a few shares in SSRIF.
It better come through, as I bought when Blanchard was pushing it in his newsletter at a fairly high price.
I finally got wise. If he pushes it, wait a few months and then when the price drops ( after his shares are sold ) invest as heavily as you feel you can.
It dropped nearly 2.00 per share in the six months after I bought.
No problem now, as it has made its way back to where I am not concerned.! Caveat emptor.
BTW, I have been trading mining stocks for several years and still get caught occasionally.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:37 - ID#26793)
SDRer: Repost from Friday on Japanese banks

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:38 - ID#288295)

I quite agree; my point is only to say that recent dramatic evidence indicates that the people who have predicated this hoax upon the citizens, will absolutely not go down without a tremendous fight.

No guts, no glory!
No gold, no freedom!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:38 - ID#261267)
Fee based!
I didn't read up on this but it sounds like Kitco having made nothing
on metals all these years is looking for alternate revenue streams.
A marketing tip for Kitco: Why not hire fulltime conpiracy theorists
to post daily ( you'll need imagination like he Penthouse letter writers )
and that way keep a low level hysteria present which might help you in charging fees for this site. Can I go ahead and give you my credit card number right now?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:38 - ID#31868)
silver stocks Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Please take a look at CFB - Clifton Mining - FSR - First Silver Reserve

This has been a silver buyers public service message.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:43 - ID#227290)
Inquisitor & Silver Stocks.


You ask: "When will silver stocks reflect silver prices? Anybody?"

As you know, price is a reflection of investors' attitudes. Although the silver stocks rose significantly with the price runup, the mood of precious metals investors is still in the dumps because of the low gold price. Gold is the 600-llb gorilla of the precious metals sector.

When gold gets to rippin', many mining stocks, including SSC, will trade for more than they're worth.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:43 - ID#31868)
I did not mean to imply that you were saying anything other than they will certainly go to the trashbin of history kicking and screaming.

I constantly like to remind all readers that there is a Constitution.

Sort of like my own version of Freedomganda if ya know what I mean!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:44 - ID#26793)
There should be no public discussion of Indonesian Currency Board

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:46 - ID#153102)
There is always more paper written in a commodity market than there is substance for delivery. It is the paper that gives the market liquidity.
There is a huge paper overhang in one of the grain markets at present. I think these contracts can always be settled in cash. But, there is a penalty for doing so. Especially if short supply drives the price out of sight in the days before the contract comes to date fulfillment. The risk for a futures contract buyer would be limited, I think, to loss of margin if the seller defaulted on delivery and on cash settlement as well. Unless the buyer was not buying on margin. Then his loss would be his cash. So, you see it would be ultimately the buyer who stands to get screwed if a gold contract is not fulfilled and the buyer would be totally dependant then on the legal system to make him well, if it could. Bankruptcy is a court for thieves, liars, and cheats as I have said before. Bank holidays are for the same type of people.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:46 - ID#31868)
Perhaps you should read a little more on a daily basis. There are many mining stocks that have done very well, and those who owned them made healthy money. Oh, and in 1997 by the way.

But if you want to revel in your own bs, than have at it and wallow away, it is a free country.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:48 - ID#288295)
a.j. and tolerant1

a.j. - It appears that the Russian silver reserves of both SSRIF and PAASF are almost completely discounted by the market. I was looking at PAASF today - with 699 MM oz silver reserves and something like 30 MM shares, a $1 rise in silver ought to cause a huge increase in PAASF. Not. All we're getting is a little less than 3 to 1 leverage. SSRIF is even worse - there doesn't seem to be much relation at all to silver price.

tolerant1 - 28 MM FSR ( previously ) restricted shares were available for trading today in you know if the price dropped? I'm looking for a dip to buy this one.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:49 - ID#31868)
It went up three cents today. Check their press releases. This is a little company on the move.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:51 - ID#60253)

Date: Mon Feb 16 1998 20:19

mozel ( @ Silverbaron ) ID#153102:

Mr. Mozel,

Thru these thoughts I have made effort for many months, in haste, to make clear. My words are plain, but hard, and others have presented this truth in a western way. But, you sir, have made the best of it!

make your path through the darkness, despair not, for one with direction and purpose, will read the map and complete the journey

I make clear for you to lead!

thank you

(Mon Feb 16 1998 20:54 - ID#31868)
So basically when you boil down all the intrigue and
mystery, with a dash of global economics thrown in, Another says buy physical and watch the rest of it play out while you sit home safe and sound with your gold in hand.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:00 - ID#330175)
Hangin in SUNNY Cape Breton------------April Gold down 1.20(dooooh)
EB:Can 'you people' in California do anything right??--I'm gettin very tired of havin my 'materpieces' returned to MOI ( thankx Bart! ) ~~~~P.S. How is your weather ( no MUD-slides...I )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:03 - ID#330175)
Ban Glenn for sayin the 280 word~~~~~~~~~~

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:05 - ID#333131)
Yes, that's the way a market should work. Risk should decrease the futures if delivery is in doubt. And I guess my argument is that they are reduced in price from what the huge buyers think gold is worth. And that the spot price is tracking that risk-reduced paper gold price because the spot market is so small in comparison to the paper gold market, it can't be touched by the big players without blowing it up. I know this argument strains credulity, at least mine, but it might expain why spot gold has gotten so cheap despite the presumed huge short gold positions. This argument also has the appeal that it would explain why paper gold prices have presumably fallen - because delivery risk has increased - carrying the spot price still lower. I don't really believe this "nutty" explanation because it assumes that no big player sees what's happening and steps in to profit, driving spot price where it ought to be relative to the riskier paper. But I suppose a conspiracy of some kind is always a possibility, but I think unlikely. Thanks for the kind comment.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:08 - ID#315256)
Inquisiter/Preacher....SSC & silver stocks
Let it not escape attention, that SSC went up 38% in a single day, just week before last! Sure it's fallen off since then giving more buying opportunity, ( which I intend to avail myself of ) but it's not exactly accurate to see it as a stock that hasn't budged. What OTHER well known mining stock has gobe up 38% in a single day recently?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:11 - ID#93232)
@Chairman Mozel.......
Do we have to wear ties at the office? It's your call now, per Another. Studio...reporting for duty, sir. I humbly put forth that today's exchange of thoughts was quite rewarding for me...great wordstuff, Mr. Mozel and Mr. Another. Gratitude.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:11 - ID#7568)

Now that our funds are heavily into the yellow stuff its time to start postulating higher gold price scenarios. The best one which comes to mind revolves around the SE Asia situation. The confrontation between the IMF and Indonesia could have some very beneficial effects for the price of gold.

Suppose we go down the road where Suharto tells Camdessus to take his loans and put 'em where the sun don't shine. He then goes ahead with the currency board plan. The currency board plan will do two things. First it will stabilize the currency because it will be 100% convertible into dollars. The central bank of Indonesia already has enough cash to cover all of M1 so any bank runs can be met with greenbacks. The problem will come in if M2 money, which is some 60 billion dollars, wishes to leave the risk arena and head down into M1 cashland. Since there is not enough cash to cover M2, interest rates could theoretically go very high, and default on all sorts of short term paper is possible. However, the ratio of M2 to M1 seems not to be very extreme, and may remain quite stable. The great benefit of this exercise will be that the man in the street who has his meager life savings stuffed in his mattress will benefit the most. His purchasing power will go up overnight, and his inclination towards rioting will diminish in kind. Those with significant exposure in interest bearing certificates may take a hit, as these are marked down, but these people are already better situated. Sort of a progressive revaluation.

The only real problem with the scheme is that dollar demand for loan repayment is large enough so as to keep the current account in deficit, if, and this is the rub, the loans are serviced. My guess is that Suharto is about to tell all the international lenders that in the interests of national security, their loans ain't going to get repaid. He will say it in a nicer way, hold out some hope of future repayment, but bottom line, the debt 'moratorium' is here to stay.

If this works in Indonesia you can be sure that the lesson will not be lost on the rest of SE Asia. Since the Korean Won continues to make new lows even in the face of total IMF compliance, they too might jump on the default bandwagon.

Why is this bullish for the price of gold? Easy. The SE Asian governments are in no position to print paper money. If they do the value of their currencies would fall faster than they could print it. This however, is not true of the currencies of the lenders. They could certainly print up a great big batch to cover the hit that their banking systems are going to take by virtue of the big writedowns. An injection of a couple of hundred billion dollars of liquidity to help out those banking institutions in need, is just what gold needs. Since the banks that are at most risk are in Europe and Japan, it may be that the dollar bull will continue, and the POG will go up most strongly in DM and JY. However, since the CB's of Japan and Europe do not want the dollar to go much higher, it is likely that they may intervene by selling some of their US paper. If this is the case then, the POG will go up in all currencies equally.

If we see Indonesia go its own way, there may possibly be an initial drop in gold because people will believe falsely that the world banking system is going to collapse due to the loan defaults and that we will head for a deflationary death spiral. This will never happen, because goverments will just electro fresh credits if in a pinch. If we get a spike down off this kind of event, buy heavily. It will be the bell ringing.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:12 - ID#286230)
LGB2 I'm not 100% sure but I think UKH may have gone up the same % on or about the same day.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:13 - ID#316193)

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:19 - ID#153102)
@Studio_R @Another
Well, If I'm leading, my press release says get physical gold and ilver in your hands and demand, wherever you are in the world, gold and silver coin from your government.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:20 - ID#330175)
GOLD metal favorites........(yeah right)
Anyone else throughly digusTED at the way the USA hockey team is playing ( over-paid ) ...A national disgrace if ya ask MOI ( P.S. Brett ( baby ) Hull who scored the usa's ( lower case ) lone goal against Oh Canada is NOT even a damn amerikan fer christ sakes...Put the "Beezer" in goal god damn it! ( you idiots )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:21 - ID#31868)
D.A. 21:11

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:24 - ID#210235)
Dreaming of Galt's Gulch and gold on this rainy evening. Anyone ideas where there is a good place for a family retreat, future relocation site?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:26 - ID#93232)
I proudly proclaim, "I have done so today"....your wish is my deed.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:28 - ID#330175)
Prometheus..................STOP dreamin and move ta --------------
Cape Breton~~~~~~~~~~

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:29 - ID#153102)
@Studio_R Ties are optional. Gold & silver coin are mandatory.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:29 - ID#288295)

Well- I can see where they might get the gold for all those coins, but silver......don't think so.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:34 - ID#315256)
@ Studio.....your 13:48
Re your post on purchase of M/S 60 "Saints" for $470 each. It appears you have a 3 to 4 week delivery, thus can still cancel your order. My suggestion would be to do so, and instead purchase M/S 61/62 "Saints" in the $450 range which can be done from three or four dealers currently. ( They are advertised as Premium Gem BU, etc. ) Not a huge price difference, but still, not unimportant if you're buying in any quantity.
Just a suggestion.... Or as someone suggested earlier, you can score certified "Saints" in the $500 region that are M/S 63 and $550 M/S 64. These do indeed escalate quickly in premium over spot price in a rising POG market.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:35 - ID#287234)
Bfiler@fee based: If you dont like this site feel free to take a hike ( so called freedom of choice ) . As far as conspiracy theories are concerned I know for sure that Bart is not fueling them. I had a chance to talk to him in person. He does not believe in conspiracies. Keep your cheap shots for people you can ( or maybe you can not ) face and avoid making statements regarding people or businesses you know nothing about. That way you wont look like a fool ever again.
I have been following this site for more than a year and still havent figured out Barts interest in running it. Maybe you can enlighten me. Maybe Ive been manipulated. Please elaborate.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:36 - ID#153102)
@Silverbaron @Another
@Silverbaron SSC's got the silver. Gimme my dividend in product and I'll find my own way to the mint.

BTW Anybody who thinks they can't conveniently carry enough gold coin to conduct daily business doesn't own any. Even at today's price, you can carry thousands in your pants pocket. And if you need to buy an aircraft carrier, write a check.

@Another Everyone here owes you a debt of gratitude. Thanks for your posts. Good luck.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:36 - ID#316193)
Sis Of Japan's Ten Major Banks In Scandal, I'm Getting Tired Of This

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:38 - ID#93232)
Bot mo' today...."I feel good"... ( James Brown ) ...I don't give a flying truck what Greenspam or Reuben Sammich think of the role of gold. They can go to the back of the room....Uh huh..confide, then deceive. Slimey bitches. AwaY!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:41 - ID#20136)
Date: Mon Feb 16 1998 20:29
mozel ( @SDRer ) ID#153102:

How in hell did they get the Aussies and Canadians and Argentines to sell their gold is another
64K question.

I can't answer this important question for you mozel, but I would point out that each of these countries has good deposits of goldand are good producers. Maybe it has something to do with Another's asertion that governments may take deliver on the mines that produce in their homelands? Maybe more deals like the one SDRer pointed out that China has instituted will become the standard practice in these countries.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:44 - ID#31868)
In the morning I am going to buy a little more of everything and inject more into my e-gold account as well. It is obvious these dirtbags in Washington care nothing of the people, the Constitution or liberty.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:46 - ID#93232)
@LGB...the Saintman.....
Thanks...but, this fellow always sends me great stuff...always better than expected...he read the posts from today about cheaper pricing, called...and he assured me that I would do well...I trust him, it's pretty simple. I have purchased a great deal ( to me ) from him. Thank you very much, though.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:48 - ID#255151)

Re hair--Since I had my transplants, I "have more hair than wit, and more faults than than hairs, and more wealth than faults." BTW, are you a fustilarian?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:49 - ID#345268)


1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.

2. A group of conspirators.

3. Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design.


(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:49 - ID#411331)
First Silver Reserve
To all, First Silver Reserve is indeed an interesting little

commpany. With 37 million shares in the float, and a production of

2.7 million oz of silver ( +1000 oz au ) it is the purest of silver

plays. Each 1$ increase in silver generates a $0.07 increase in

cash flow. Cash flow X 6 should generate a stock valuation of

$0.42 per share. That translates to a 27% return on investment

based on a $1.55 stock price. Price earning multiple should be

about 13X, based on an estimate of $0.11 net.

As near as I can figure, this is

the highest leverage of any of the silver stocks that have actual

production. Silver Standard and Pan American have big reserves but

they are either in politically 'difficult' regions or high cost, and

neither one of these companies is in a position to place ore

reserves into production in a hurry. Incidentally, TVX is a silver

play with a 8% return on investment per dollar rise in silver at

$4.10 per share. TVX reserves are 150 million oz and their prodn.

will be 7.8 million oz this year, rising to a possible 15 million

ounces in 1999. Interesting timing!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:56 - ID#57232)
Mozel: Appreciate your well-considered 17:55 post. ANOTHER likes your posts as well -- I think he and the 'other' ANOTHER who has access to his persoal ID# -- are just as interested in our comments are we are in theirs. The original ANOTHER is not familiar with our culture -- derivatives markets, and paper markets for example, although he clearly knows gold and perhaps oil markets better than we.

I really appreciated your comments about 'overhang' and OTC derivatives trading. I never understood how OTC derivatives trades where handled when they go sour, as there is no standardized market. I gather the claims go to court in the country where the derivative trade is set up -- so it is not standardized. Could you explain how Indonesia setting up a currency board is going to threaten the derivatives market? I would think that future trades, not previous ones would be affected.

Are you saying that the use of a currency board would encourage SEAsian countries to move away from the US dollar to other currencies, so that the derivatives market would dry up ( partially, at least ) ? I would think that the IMF would like this, as the derivatives trading is growing exponentially wordl-wide, and either this must be stopped voluntarily, or we will implode in a world-wide derivatives disaster someday when it all unwinds. Better to control the spigot up front, I would think.

On the other hand, perhaps the IMF is more concerned about keeping the status quo in OTC derivatives using the dollar. If so, that is a very disturbing thought. Comments?

By the way, I doubt that April Glaspie was actually told to tell Saddam that invading Kuwait was ok so that the US could move into the Middle East. I think another excuse could have been found if the US was truly alarmed -- look at what is happening now. Personally, I think Saddam will back down, and let us inspect the 'palaces'. That is his style to push everything to its limit. Notice that this time he has not really rattled a single saber?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 21:57 - ID#153102)
China is a communist country for crying out loud. Are you saying Australia and Canada are communist, too ?
Maybe. They are exchanging printed paper for gold.
But, look at the losses incurred by miners and shareowners. What payoff could have induced them to betray their own people's interest ? I mean here is the US anouncing Roosa Bonds backed by gold, which I hope SDRere will tell us more about, and these governments are exchanging gold for paper ???

Mo in To
(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:06 - ID#347205)
Re: Your Post Last Night

ABOUT ANY just in case it's an insult or something....

Mo in To
ps. does anyone know how the overseas markets are doing?
how about the POG???? ( please )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:10 - ID#93232)
@LGB...I gotta' ask.....
Did you really undergo a "religious" revitalization or a life-altering experience of the first kind ( everyday life ) ?....the "altered" state is highly advanced. happiness.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:20 - ID#93232)
Here in the south, we just don't think hard...period. All I recall about last night's lunacy, was that you have a damn big cat with a real bad attitude. Wit? Huh?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:23 - ID#153102)
Didn't I see a video of Glaspie suckering Saddam on instructions that she was suckered into following herself ? Where is she now ? Tell me some other way the U.S. could have gotten international agreement to be in the Persian Gulf and in control of world oil, have domestic support for it, and convince the Saudi's to let the infidels have troops in Arabia. It took a viable threat to accomplish all this and Saddam fit the bill, didn't he ? His country is damned near partitioned and he is still a viable threat with a significant portion of the American public. Check out McMahon.

If derivatives on currency and international trade are $100 trillion, what do you think the profit might be ? I don't understand currency boards or how they relate to national foreign reserves. Isn't the IMF a currency board ? The SDR is a basket of currencies.

Thanks for your kind words on the post. As Cherokee says, I was on the shoulders of giants.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:29 - ID#255217)
Inquisitor, re: your post @ 19:50
I thought for a moment I must have made the post myself in my sleep. Only my play has been in physical silver. IMHO the move up in Ag has been so rapid, many are fearful it might reverse with equal rapidity. Ag has a perverse nature, WB notwithstanding.

Dealers in physicals especially, are discounting purchases heavily to cushion such a reversal. Again IMHO silver must demonstrate its staying power at these, and higher, levels in order to instill confidence in the minds of buyers. THEN, you will see stability creep into silver stocks and physicals. This is a motherhood statement, I know, but nonetheless true. Patience, as always, but especially in silver expectations, is a virtue.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:30 - ID#20136)
Date: Mon Feb 16 1998 21:57
mozel ( @AGoose ) ID#153102:
China is a communist country for crying out loud. Are you saying Australia and Canada are
communist, too ?

Of course not, I am just trying to figure a way/reason that they would feel confident in selling their gold at a bottom. They tax, they make laws unfriendly to their inhabitants, they send their boys to die in unwarranted wars, they could if need be obtain more gold within their borders. ( Remember the U.S. baned its citizens from owning gold not to very long ago - with not much warning either ) .

So I submit that the world currency fathers suggested that the short term pain to the mining segment in their respective countries be far outweighed by the need to stabilize world trade. World trade based on the U.S. dollar ( the gold/oil relationship noted ) is being threatened by the lack of available gold supplies. Could they believe that avoiding the currency turmoil was in their best interest.

Possibly they were selected to make the sell because their constitutions/laws allowed the sells, they had the gold to sell, and they were aware of the severity of the consequences if the U.S. dollar becomes unlinked from oil.

Once they were convinced of the severity of the situation, then a plan for settlement could be worked out. Maybe SDRer is correct and a new Rosa bond was worked in?

Hopefully, I am not distracting you. If this helps fine, if not forget it.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:32 - ID#227238)
Superb commentary today.
What a great day to just peruse the comments of greater minds than mine. Mozel, your post at 17:55 was absolutely awesome. I read it twice and filed it in the ongoing compilation of Mozel wisdom. To SDRer, Donald, Carl, DA, JTF and a host of others, my undying gratitude.

Bart: One day like today should make up for many of the lesser variety. Thanks for for your efforts.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:32 - ID#427357)

The last half of 1997 witnessed one of the most devastating

stock market meltdowns and coincident currency chaos since

World War II. It's epicenter was and remains Southeast Asia.

And since all world economies have become inextricably

connected, and therefore dependent, the woes of Asia are

relentlessly exporting their destruction to other parts of the


Due to the continuing turmoil in the Asia in recent months,

financial media is plastered with stories of how the economic

plight of the Far-East may well reach Occidental shores in the

not too distant future. To keep abreast of what is occurring in

the Orient, and how it may affect the western banking,

financial and monetary systems, golden-eagle has created

an entirely new section devoted entirely to the Far-East. It is

called the "Asian Corner."

The current crisis in Asia and its contagion effect - now known

as "The Domino Effect" - threatens to infect Western

economies. Therefore, the Western world has brought Asia

into sharp focus. Businessmen from Boston to Buenos Aires to

Bern to Berlin to Bahrain to Baghdad must necessarily concern

themselves of what is occurring in Asia - and what impact

currency devaluations and massive loan defaults will have on

Western economies from Wall Street down to Main Street.

Undoubtedly, the deterioration of Asia's economic and

financial sectors will us affect us ALL. Therefore, the "Asian

Corner" will try to cover the most important economic,

financial and monetary sectors to keep us updated on latest

developments. As Asia goes... so goes the West

ASIAN CORNER seen at following URL ( just delete the

letters en in the word Golden

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:36 - ID#187218)
I understand that you have taken the torch to translate what ANOTHER has already translated from his handlers. This is a double convolution OR the inverse Fourier Tranform of the Fourier Transform,,,, thus,,,, bringing us directly back to GO at which location we initially said to get PM physicals. Would U agree....?.....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:37 - ID#30116)
Taxing time of year... Tort, wash sales????
Who says the government isn't eyeing gold??? The IRS ( Internal Revenue Service ) thought enough of it to use it as an example in Publication 550. Of course, it was an example of a loss situation...

Who writes these tax laws, and more to the point, does anyone understand the explanation given in these fine publications that are ostensibly put out to help us???

I think it's much easier to buy gold coins.....

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:41 - ID#93232)
@Earl...Hey! Over Here!
You inadvertantly left out Ted and me...bro...we talked our asses off today.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:41 - ID#41229)
Continuance of refer's education
I'm sure this is a basic question to most but, what the Hell is M1 M2 M3, I'm under the impression that they are amount of currency in different market sectors, could someone splain this to me, THANKS!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:44 - ID#227238)
Studio R: So I noticed. " ..... a host of others", will cover a lot of ground. ... : ) )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:48 - ID#65208)
Boom over - South Africa confronts
plunge in gold prices


Gold opens higher in Hong Kong:

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:50 - ID#30116)
Haggis__A -- Thems fightin' words! :- )

Date: Mon Feb 16 1998 09:29
Haggis__A ( Bill Clinton is a Panda............... ) ID#398105:

No sir! He's NO panda!!!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:50 - ID#153102)
@AGoose @WetGold @Earl
@AGoose Cogently put. Very rationalized. Proabably a better defense than they could make for themselves.

@WetGold I don't know about this translator role. On the whole, I don't follow the math, but agree with the conclusion.

@Earl Thanks.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 22:57 - ID#335190)
Bart @ Kitco Site - COSTS !
**"The problem lies in "it still costs money" & "cost of keeping this site going". "Our objective is to not only pay for itself now, but also generate extra revenues to re-invest in the group"**

Bart & All: Considering the Kitco site is about to turn two ( 2 ) years old, I believe it is in April. I thought you would be interested in this material.

Internet Conference - Corporate Canada can not figure out the best way to work the web - "Nobody's got it right. Everybody's learning" "Guided by high hopes and blind faith, but little else"

"We have to create a marketing mix that satisfies the customer, not the company. the ( ad ) agency, or technical wizards."

Advertising in USofA 1997 - $185 Billion - Internet $600 Million - ( less than 1/2 of 1 % ) - 1/4 of $600 million to Yahoo & Lycos & Infoseek - Excite.

Canada advertising $10 to $15 Billion 1997 - Internet $2 to $5 Million.

The struggle to find a working business model for Internet advertising has great significance for every cybersurfer. If Web site publishers can use advertising to pay the costs of development and maintenance, for instance, it's more likely that sites will continue to be served up for free. Cybercitizens may find increasing amounts of Web-based advertising intrusive.

New York Times - Internet lost $15 Million 1997
Knight-Ridder -Internet lost $16 Million 1997
The Tribune - Internet lost $30 Million 1997

Banner Ad's are known as "Impression" Publishers charge advertising rates for every thousand "Impressions" For instance AT&T, Visa,shell,IBM,Budweiser are paying CBS Sportsline's Olympic site $40 US CPM, which means that for every 1,000 AT&T ad banners served up on the CBS Olympic Web Site AT&T pays $40 US. CBS expects 10 Million AT&T banners "Impressions" for about $400,000 US.

Most popular Web Sites January - million visitors: 1. Yahoo ( 26.7 )
2. netscape ( 20.7 ) 3. microsoft ( 15.6 ) 4. Excite ( 12.5 )
5. Infoseek ( 11.6 ) 6. aol ( 11.2 ) ....... 25. usatoday ( 2.5 )

I expect you know this information. Thought it may help. Good Luck Bart. Thanks, Take Care

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:00 - ID#432361)
Brilliant Day At Kitco
Mozel: Brilliant post!!

I also enjoyed all the other great posts today. I second Earl's point that a day like today makes up for all the duds in the past.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:05 - ID#31868)
Shell, Chevron to tap oil-rich Caspian riches together
Copyright  1998
Copyright  1998 Reuters News Service

LONDON ( February 16, 1998 5:12 p.m. EST ) - Royal Dutch/Shell Group and Chevron Corp. said Monday they agreed to jointly develop large energy projects in the oil-rich Caspian region.

The two companies said in a statement that they would work on bringing oil from vast landlocked oil and gas fields to world markets.

"We envision projects of a scale that would generate significant value for the people of the region," said Chevron Dhairman Ken Derr.

Analysts said the deal made long-term strategic sense by combining Shell's strong political connections in Russia and its skills in transporting oil and gas with Chevron's already strong production base in Kazakhstan.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:05 - ID#432361)
D.A.: I suspect the sucess or failure of an indonesian currency board will rest on who owns the rupiah M2. If it is the family and friends of Suharto ( my cynical suspicion ) then they will expect to be at the head of the line for access to precious dollars M1 or no M1. Sad but true.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:13 - ID#210235)
Ted, been checking out the Cape Breton website. Looks like a good spot to bring the kids for a summer vacation to check it out. Thanks.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:16 - ID#411149)
Yes I thought recommending baning glenn also! but on second thought
let's keep him, I do appreciate what he has to say EVEN THOUGH I DON'T

Do any of you rememember the Forbes article by John Brimelow? January 12,
1998 issue. John Brimelow is one of the great people who know's how to make money in gold shares, he advises many FUNDS. His picks to MAKE MONEY
were- Durban Deep [nasdaq- DROOY], Randgold [nasdaq- RANGY], Golden Star [amex- GSR], TVX [amex- TVX], Royal Oak [amex- RYO], and Homestake [nyse- HM].

DA- waiting for the bell!

Off to Texas,

Tally Ho

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:22 - ID#330175)
Studio.R................... and 'Host of others' -R-US

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:24 - ID#41229)
Types of money---M1, M2......
For all as I that was wondering what the different sectors were check this out!

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:28 - ID#153102)
@Tolerant1 @GFD
@Tolerant1 Hmmmm. Yet another factor in managing the oil-greenback-gold relationship. Oil production. Near term goal: Increase non-OPEC production yet again. Ultimate goal: the oldtime, good old days buyer's market.

@GFD Thank you kndly.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:30 - ID#330175)
I can't believe this.................
Panda is Bill Clinton ( well I'll be damned )

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:35 - ID#41229)
Money- 101 the basics
So basic I'm even able to comprehend! {:+0 )

Speaks of comodity money and fiat.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:36 - ID#93232)
Old Posters never die...they just fade away.....
G'Nite and...I will be gone for some time.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:36 - ID#248180)
@ An Excellent Day of Stimulating Posts
Mozel, Another, and everyone else that contributed today, thank you. I just logged on a short while ago and must go back and read carefully.

Some months back when the Asia crisis was only to be a "Glitch" in the road; someone suggested that Indonisia, Malaysia, S/Korea, Phillipines and other financially troubled nations should default on payments to the IMF and associated debtors.
Simply write them off. Can this be done? Is this about to happen? Afterall it is the American way - "go bankrupt" when you can't pay.
If this avenue is to be pursued then, new currency alliances, new trade zones and agreements can be entered into.
Russia & the rest of the CIS, SE/Asia, Japan, S/Korea, South Africa, Iran & Irac and China for a convenient block of partners, non of which would be saddened by a weak USA and US$. Your comments please. What would such an alliance do to oil and precious metals and mining stocks.
I am not suggesting that all countries listed above would be in that alliance, maybe a few and the rest would be simpathizers?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:37 - ID#330175)
Hey Studio.R
Where ya goin?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:40 - ID#41229)
Will quit on subject! Do not want to waste bandwith. Had to post.
Here is the side note of the previous stated course.

Folloiwng the suggestion in the instructors manual, you may want to cut a piece of green paper to roughly the same
size as U.S. currency, then ask the class why one piece of paper is money while the other is not? Most students should
come to the conclusion that we accept money because we all believe it has value, and for no other reason!

Basically this is what another was trying to say of the $.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:41 - ID#286250)
Donald, sorry--we're having power failures! BOJ was asked for 8000 share

Major Decisions by the Policy Board in Fiscal 1996
Bank of Japan
I. Capital Subscription to the Bank for International Settlements

The Policy Board decided on September 6, 1996 to subscribe to an additional 8,000 SHARES OF THE BANK FOR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS ( BIS ) , FOLLOWING A REQUEST BY THE BIS. The decision was based on the Policy Board's view that an increase in the shareholding of the Bank of Japan would further strengthen its relationship with the BIS and, as a result, contribute to enhancing international financial cooperation. The Bank made the subscription on November 1, 1996.

This request was evidently made in August 97. An interesting puzzle:
BOJ problems? or BIS problems? Perhaps we should back-up and run through
the UBS under-counted silver caper? Far too many odd situations...

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:43 - ID#42371)
@ Advice wanted
An elliot wav-ist friend feels we are getting close to the top. He has consistently been annoyingly 'Bullish" and right so far. He is starting to suggest that it is time to think about puts on the S & P and leveraging up .

He is neutral for the next week but thinks it could be soon.

Advice friends?

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:44 - ID#31868)
I think it is clear that Yeltsin was telling the West in no uncertain terms Russia was not giving up its oil in the Caspian as well as its other resource interests in the region. Hence the tough talk, WWWlll and such.

The game here is all about money. Call it oil, gold whatever. Same old story, same old game. The American people are chasing their tails talking about politics, Iraq, yappity yap, but they completely miss the regional oil and other strategic resource wars going on around the globe.

All is well as long as they have cable and ten cent long distance service and cheap gas for their ongoing love affair with the motor carriage..

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:45 - ID#335190)
Democracy EH! @ Quebec & Canada & YES, the First Nations People of Quebec.
February 16, 1998
Bloc MPs fan across country to warn Canadians all democratic rights being

OTTAWA ( CP )  The separatist Bloc Quebecois used the Supreme Court reference on Quebec separation Monday to warn all Canadians that provincial rights are at stake in the historic case.

Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe told a crowd of more than a thousand Quebecers waving the Fleur-de-lis on the steps of the court that Canadians everywhere should be concerned about the abuse of democracy going on inside.

"We have to tell Canadians and the judges that it is the Quebec people who will make the decision," Duceppe said after the rally.

"Of course we are sovereigntists. Of course we are defending Quebec's interests. But this is not about sovereignty. It's about democracy in Quebec and Canada."

Duceppe and Quebec Premier Lucien Bouchard maintain it is up to Quebecers, not the federally appointed court, to decide the province's destiny.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:49 - ID#210235)
Check out Donald's post at 10:41 for an answer to your query.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:50 - ID#57232)
April Glaspe; the role of derivatives in SEAsia crisis
Mozel: Your 22:23. I agree 100% with the sequence you posted on April Glaspie. Clearly someone told her to tell Saddam that the US would not do anything serious if he invaded Kuwiat, and the rest followed -- all the way to Desert Storm.

My only point was that it is more likely that April Glaspie was given incompetent advice that she was dumb enough to follow. If she was doing some clever 'undercover' work misleading Saddam, why don't we hear anything about her anymore? My guess is that she has been sent to the equivalent of the South Pole for her brilliant statement.

With regard to the OTC derivatives and the Indonesian currency basket -- I still don't know how one connects with the other after thinking about your post. I do get the impression that the IMF has a complex agenda that is not necessarily in the world's or their own best interest.

Surely they must understand that their score is nearly 0 for 6 ( or so ) in SEAsia. If Suharto et al and South Korea have defaulted on some derivatives trades within their borders, I would think the IMF would want these countries to get back on their feet relatively quickly.

The IMF is right about one thing -- a currency board alone will not solve the problems of SEAsia, without alot of internal changes -- but I don't see the IMF lifting a finger to help.

(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:55 - ID#210235)
Whoops! My response was XAU, not S&P.

Bill El Zebub
(Mon Feb 16 1998 23:58 - ID#261352)
CNBC Talking Head said Japan has been pumping up the Yen and Nikkei (sp)
Said their fiscal year ended March 31st and they would let go
of their manipulation. Comments?