Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:01 - ID#287277)
Muncipal Eurobonds! Whoopee! debt doesn't matter--ratings? Bah! Humbug!
St. Petersburg Times [Russia, not FL]

City Is Hall Not Worried Either

By Brian Whitmore

The decision by Moody's Investor Services to downgrade Russia's credit rating should have little effect on investment in St. Petersburg, officials and financial analysts said Thursday.

On Wednesday, Moody's dropped Russia's sovereign ceiling for foreign currency bonds and notes to Ba3 from Ba2. A lower rating indicates a higher risk for investors.

Moreover, no Russian region can receive a rating higher than the "sovereign ceiling."

A year ago St. Petersburg received a BB minus credit rating from Standard & Poor's and a BB plus credit rating from IBCA, both being identical to the country's sovereign rating and thus the highest possible. Those ratings cleared the way for a fully subscribed $300 million Eurobond float last June, that City Hall used to restructure its crippling municipal debt

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:11 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Woody -- In a word, 'yes'. Even if much of the money winds up in the equities, those who sold the equities will have the money to put into circulation in one manner or another. Bottom line is that eventually, all those new depreciating-in-'value' dollars do arive on the scene.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:13 - ID#347127)
@ all

I heard that Greece ( EEC country ) devalued the drachma. Anyone knows the current exchange rate to the dollar?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:15 - ID#269245)
woody - you are correct, yet there is more...
US$ has provided a stable currency for many foreign investors and countries alike. Most of our increased money supply has gone to them and will remain there until they decide to spend it or reinvest it. Many will want to try out the Euro, many will switch back to their local currencies once they are confident that their currencies have stabilized, some will buy US goods. We are currently exporting A LOT of US Dollars. Until this trend is reversed the US will continue its deflationary trend due to overly competative foreign goods. Once the US begin to topple from trade deficits, deflation, and lack of demand for our goods and services we will see the Dollar loose ground to other currencies. This will mark the beginning of relatively severe inflation as foreign currency holders dump their US$ for other, stronger investments. That is when the real damage starts! Dominance of the US$ will be fairly short lived - give it a couple years. We will know when inflation hits because the POG will trend upwards very quickly. The stage for inflation has already been set, now we just wait for the show to begin... IF ALL COUNTRIES WERE ON THE GOLD STANDARD, WE WOULD NOT HAVE THESE STUPID PROBLEMS!! - c

Mike Sheller
(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:18 - ID#347447)
Don't quote me, and I don't have their financials handy ( its buried under tons of charts, annual reports, and offerings and sh*t ) but off the top of my head I'd figure an average of 6.50 -6.75 silver for a year might give SSC a profit these days. Am I way off?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:20 - ID#255151)

Simply type in http:// and it automatically converts the part into one of those "clickable" blue things. http:/ doesn't do it, Http:// doesn't do it. http://Go Gold!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:21 - ID#287277)
Woody--your dollar post--You are using LOGIC...which is NOT allowed
under the Goldilocks New Paradign....

The New Paradign is, simply put, God loves the dollar, and
Americans, and American business and will allow nothing
'bad' to happen to any of the above...[this is sarcasm, I do NOT think
God plays 'favorites'--and if He did, I'd have a difficult time believing
he'd choose us!]

Every news story I've posted tonight should be a coffin nail in the
US market, IF the market were rational...Japan making money, China--with a goal directed new leader, European interest rates appear ready to rise,
etc., etc., etc. But the US market closed on a +800 uptick, and there
are bushel-baskets of fresh tulip bulbs on the floor of the exchange just waiting for the morning's opening bell!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:23 - ID#347127)
@ Mike Sheller

Thanks Mike, $6.50 - $6.75 is attainable this year ( average Ag of the year ) and SSC will survive. I just came back from a week's trip and try to catch up with Kitco. No financial papers yet, so no foreign exchange rates ( not that I am lazy!! ) .

John B__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:26 - ID#211105)
Thanks, I'll do that

Mike Sheller
(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:27 - ID#347447)
Actually you're not far from the truth. I'm your man. In the late 80's and first couple of years of the 90's I was with a group of marketing commandos who did some Mad Avenue work for the second largest Ad agency in Japan, for their New York operation. The client names and brands we promoted are all in your home. It never ceased to amaze me what a career Japanese businesses made of losing money or making razor thin profits for market share. Even in those "glory years," they wound up "buying up America" and getting stuck with loads of Real Estate bought at the top. They are still hurting from that. As far as I can tell here in New York, Americans sold out to Japan at the crest of the RE boom, then bought it all back at the bottom in '93 and '94, and now RE is roaring again in New York. Maybe all those new Yen will come back to Manhattan...just in time for another top. Now we see who the real sharp business people really were, do we not?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:29 - ID#287277)
say goodnight Gracie {:- )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:33 - ID#287277)
Mike Sheller--Might one hope the learning curve eventually
improves? {:- ) Thanks! Goodnight.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:45 - ID#25588)
Lurker 777
I can't help you much, I don't follow the oex and I do very little in options. There are others on Kitco who are better qualified then I. I would pull the stop for the first 30 minutes to avoid any wild swings.
Good Luck

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:46 - ID#224149)
Canadian dollar and Gold
Ted , As you know I only trade the Futures Market so my support and resistance levels apply to the June 98-contract .C$ support .7020 and resistance .7136 with a very small possibility of a .6963 test. Since this is a Gold page June Gold resistance 298.00  297.40 Support 286.00  287.70 .The C$ closed today at .70.63

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:48 - ID#24135)
Why do countries hold reserves?
For Oris
You're one of the few guys that answers questions.
I was surprised to see the reserves ( ex gold ) that
other countries hold relative to the US. Japan holds
over 4 times US reserves. Spain and Germany each hold
about the same amount as the US.
No one has answered the question that I asked about
NATIONAL European reserves as opposed to THE European
Central bank reserves.
For example, I can see US$ and YEN being held by the
New Big EURO bank ... so that these $/yen can be SOLD in
times of intervention to support the Euro. But why
really should this bank hold GOLD ??. Isnt its real
concern simply with its new bogus currency??
On the other hand .. Lets think about the reserves
of individual countries. Dont THEY have to hold
reserves anyway to protect against national emergencies??
like floods, wars ( see yugoslavia ) , plagues, famine
( see N. Korea ) , internal economic collapse ( see S.Korea
and Indonesia ) .
Lets take a case .. imagine Turkey and Greece in say 10
years with euros .. unable to print their own money ..
does that mean that they CANT have a war over Cyprus
because the european central bank wont finance it???
Will there be TWO levels of reserves .. a new one at
the EURO CB level with the individual countries also
maintaining reserves???
Also, as an aside, what happens to all those old dmarks
and french francs .. etc etc .. are they all traded in for
euros??? Whose face is on the Euro .. Helmut Kohl??

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:49 - ID#257148)
Hercules Poirot was one good Belgian.......
another day of postings for our edjumacation. Thanks, Gracie. ( I don't know why y'all say that, I don't recognise a song or a movie. Gracie? )

Quite apart from the generosity of your posts, you also wear the finest silk undergarments@kitco, we've heard.

you missed some classic pre-Road-To-Damascus LGB acerbity, when, in the gold old days RJ & LGB crossed swords. They don't make bun-fights like they used to, pre-password days.

John du chat
Just keep the pills handy.

MS *
Good to see you 'round' more often lately. Triple witching tomorrow is gonna make for some interesting volatility, I'd say.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:52 - ID#257148)
your "Lets take a case .. imagine Turkey and Greece in say 10 years with euros" reminds me of a Mad Cartooon. --You gotta baste the Turkey with the Greece several times and turn the Turkey round unless you want it to dry out.

Lurker 777
(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:55 - ID#317247)
It's done. Your right about the swings so I will wait 30 min. Thanks for your input.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 00:58 - ID#247190)
HELP !!!!
To All: I am at the end. I need the advice of the people on this forum, not my broker, not any salespitch from a newsletter, to see me through as I don't even believe in myself anymore. I am now reduced to either go with an option or a mini contract as all funds have been depleted.

Being new at this I suppose I should not have gotten involved with such a politically driven commodity ( Gold ) , but this is what happened; I had been paper trading for a couple of months when out the blue I get this newsletter ( Which I never asked for ) about the coming Gold Bull market. After reading it, so great was the revelation and so fascinating was the information. Being a Christian, I could see how the events unfolding fit so much in line with the Bible and the end times. It was like a voice from heaven telling me, this is what I am supposed to do.

A couple weeks later, I received another newsletter from another organization ( Which I never asked for ) describing the events taking place with the world and with Gold....There was that voice from heaven again. Up to this point I had been successful at paper trading but did not have the chance to try the real thing. I could not wait to get started. I talked to everyone that would listen and I tell them what's going on and they get excited with me and I finally convince my wife that I can succeed at commodities.

With her blessing I began trading right after Gold broke out in January.

So sure was I that this was the start of something great But as stated in the beginning, I have been stopped out twice with a loss. I must now either go with a mini contract or with an option. And with that comes the choice of a "call" or "put"? Short or Long.? Wait a while? Get back In right away?

Naturally I am long as I have been from the start but confidence is deeply shaken at this time and I await recomendations from the people on this form who know best. I have been lurking on this site for quite some time and have gained a lot of knowledge that you never get from the broker or the newsletter as both are tainted with a sales pitch.

Bottom line is this. What can I do with $1,200? How do I turn this around? I know I'm not alone on this, please help! ( boy do I sound like a pathetic loser or what? )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:06 - ID#335379)
Hello Scito; In a queery with the rest of us?

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:14 - ID#25867)
To robnoel: Id like to listen to your national radio show, but Howard Stern is now the #1 Montreal morning show. So if you do make it into the Montreal market be sure to schedule yourself for the drive home.

hepcat: If your recent posts are a prelude of whats to come, then youre not going to last very long. Why dont you try to set a personal record to see how long you can go without being rude and offensive? I havent got the time to set up a voting thing to throw you off, so this time will be quick and painless.

Chas & Silverbaron: We sell gold, not T-shirts. We would provide the advertising space, take on-line orders, but the rest is up to you. Our portion of the profits would get re-invested in the site. Perhaps you could charge a premium for the T-shirts and increase sales by offering a guaranteed buy back price of say $6.00 per unit on or before Jan 1, 2000.

Prospector: The Mounties are being sold for $325.00, not $350.

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:17 - ID#24135)
RSA mines Platinum, Russia mines Palladium
For RJ ( and Brother Oris )
I agree with you on the long term merits of platinum.
However, I was surprised to hear that the RSA Platinum
mines were deep .. and some under the sea????.
Gee whiz, rj. I dont think thats right.
DE GOLD MINES are in many cases crazy DEEP. But I
have always understood that this was not true for the
platinum mines. I will of course check this out today
and advise. A while ago, I had questioned the high cost
.. 385$/oz of Northam Platinum ( a marginal which I own
too much of ) and was told ( by Northams ) that costs
were high because they were a DEEP mine .. operating at
as deep as 1000 .. maybe even 1200 meters.
They said that the Amplat and Implat mines were much
more shallow ( as little as 400 meters to 600 meters ) .
By RSA gold mine standards .. this is nothing.
Just to get things into perspective .. In 1997, RSA
produced over five times as much PLATINUM as Russia,
and over 13 times as much as the US.
On the other hand, RSA only produces about HALF
as much palladium as Russia, and only about 3 times
as much as the USA.
It is partly because of these figures that I have
long ago accepted the story that the Russian "stockpile"
of Platinum was much more imaginary that their Palladium
I never heard of a mine here operating under the sea
but it sounds exciting. Could you provide more details??

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:19 - ID#233199)

If you decide to go long so you cnd lay back and get some sleep then maybe you shouls check out this analysis:

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:20 - ID#257148)
the lamb lies down on broadway- and gets run by on the Y2K train to glory
I am afraid I am not able to assist you. Others here, I hope can. You may need divine intervention.

What was the name of this Newsletter ( s ) ? I suspect it is important info. We should be wary of these unsolicited "newsletters."

I guess you've never heard of Zurich Axiom 8?
Major Axiom 8 On Religion and the Occult

"It is unlikely that gods plan for the universe includes making you rich
Assume you are on your own. Rely on nothing but your own wits. "

As long as I assume that you are genuine and not pulling my leg, your post only emphasises mine of an earthspin or two ago. Some kinda place you got there in americaland. You're really gonna get some wierd stuff coming down come the millenium, so primed up with your christianity. oh boy,

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:22 - ID#247190)
After many late night readings of the posts on this sight, I find that the advice given is tops. Usually when I paid no attention to what was being said, I've been wrong and these posts were correct. So far the recomendations from the broker have been incorrect and stopped out twice as well.

As of the latest CB selloff escapade, my thinking has become muddy and undecisive. Either way I have been a loser. It started out well with a couple trades profiting nicely but how quickly that can turn around. Left myself too exposed because I was so sure that any drop in the POG would be short lived and insignificant to the long term.LIVE AND LEARN They say

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:22 - ID#233199)

don't forget to remove the letters "en" from the URL I just posted
It's some kind of Kitco fluke with this site that those letters ( "en" ) get included all the time for some esoteric reason,

Best Wishes

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:24 - ID#224149)
Good Offer
Bart You have my order Now I have coins for a rainy day.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:25 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Scito -- Oh, there'll be a gold bull happening! But unless you are adept at getting in and out of the market appropriately, you WILL lose ALL your cash! Just say no to the fanciful newsletters and get back to your own methodology! Else, lay that 1200 bucks into the physical and forget about 'trading/gambling'. Getting stopped out badly is NOT fun. Remember, playing the markets in ANY form IS gambling. But then, most everything in life is.

So, what to do with 1200 bucks. Well, it is a certainty that you won't be buying a gold futures contract with it. You could 'explore' the options. EB or Cherokee are more knowledgeable about those. You could also temporarily play with some other commodities also that have lower margins. Just play them 'sanely'! I'm sure a few others here will also be able to provide some 'advice'. Just remember that it is there own personal experience. Whatever you do, make it be 'you', and that only you can be responsible for the outcome.

Best wishes......

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:26 - ID#24135)
I dont know WHY I dont like him.. I just dont like him
to Bart et al
Just put me down as a standing vote against hepcat
the jerk. He is arrogant and annoying. He has nothing
to be arrogant about. He has so little imagination
that he even had to STEAL his moniker. I doubt if he
ever knew who Bernatz was .. without looking it up.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:28 - ID#20137)
By golly look at the amount of silver removed from eligible status.Dropped 2 million ounces!
warehouse stocks:
n GOLD ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
321,832 0 0 0 0 321,832
245,742 0 0 0 0 245,742
567,574 0 0 0 0 567,574


0 2,171,375 39,162,855
-214,250 -2,171,375 50,933,471
-214,250 0 90,096,326

I do believe that eligible has dropped to a new low. BOY those silver BEARS HAVE NO FEAR!!! Wonder if we are about to see a turn around tomorrow. Maybe flow over and push gold up???

I haven't forgotten my chicken index, will get to it tomorrow. Didn't get much input, but what the hey.... At least, I got my taxes done. Got to make sure that Billy and Hillary get their money ( ugh! ) . goodnight.

Silver looking to lead the day.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:29 - ID#335379)
Hello Scito; in a queery with the rest of us ?
I got in gold and PMS with the understanding that this was a long term position.
I do not have any specific good reco's. Durban Deep ( drooy ) is a higher risk stock
but better than a call on the gold price. It is a multi year wait. Earlier this year all those news letters decided that the gold bull was going to arrive early. This seemed to me to be hog wash. Four of the letters I read are still talking buying.
It is hard to know exactly what to buy. I bought International persuit and watched it tank worse than my other picks, then I added to my other positions but not IP, and the others are still down and IP doubled. Go figure, GO GOLD.
It is good to hear of your faith, Remember God is often more into process and giving things time than he is into quick judgements and wrath, slow to anger
and full of long suffering.
I bought into the gold deal for future protection, as I trust the other big G about as much as I trust the devil. So a long term positon suits me fine. Gold and gold
shares are in value opposite to my work. If the normal way I make a living tanks along with the economy, the PM investment may respond on the up side.
I happen to be in the camp that PM's are better to have in deflation.
Please consider many other sorces of advice as I am but one view among many
here at Kitco.
Nicodemus, still seeking anwers by night

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:30 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bart -- HAR!!!!

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:31 - ID#24135)
crusty calling salty
For Salty
Although I appreciate your recipe for greasy turkey,
and will add it to my Kitco cookbook file. I was hoping
you could have offerred a bit more to my question

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:31 - ID#257148)
Now there's an idea, a put option on a T-shirt. Auric will want to know if it should be wet. LGB will want to know if it's slabbed PCGS. RJ will want to know if it comes in silk, The Hermit & The Preacher will want sackloth & I want to know how to sell a small mound of soverinis.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:38 - ID#257148)
And the River Platte means what??
Well, I think he means mining sea water for Platinum like mining for gold. Personally, I prefer mining for salt.

BTW. didja every answer my Q re Interim cf Final JM Plat Review from one earthspin ago?

Assuming then that there are no effective substiutes for the catalysts, what is the recovery rate for the PGM's from old catalysts? I expect with high PGM prices recovery look attractive?

your little silver ( ergo plata~ini ) buddy. salty.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:39 - ID#173274)
@the scene
I want the tee shirt to be made out of gold chain-mail with platinum trim.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:45 - ID#247190)
To all
I certainly take full responsibility for my decisions. I am in no way laying blame on anyone but myself. Everything is a gamble. Opening up a business is a bigger gamble than the trades I made over the past month. Sending my child off to school each day to be subject to whatever twisted moral principles our fine government upholds and teaches is a much bigger risk than the ones I've just taken. I believe in what I am doing is the right thing and I will continue to try until I succeed.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:47 - ID#257148)
I want mine to weigh 7000 tonnes.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:51 - ID#393224)
What's the difference between a lawyer and a rooster?

A rooster clucks defiant.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 01:58 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Aurator -- I'd rather have mine be wearable, and moveable. Leave the rest of the 7000 tonnes otherwise available for whatever else.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:00 - ID#183109)
Gold Council director
No need for Belgian-inspired panic on gold
New York-based executive director of the Gold Council, George Milling-Stanley, says the market is missing the real point in the role of gold in the new European Central Bank. He says the pro-gold views of the French, Germans and Italians, who are likely to dominate the group that runs the Bank, leaves him with "a warm glow".

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:01 - ID#257148)
Ha Ha


(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:06 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Nick@C -- Yup. That puts it rather succintly!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:23 - ID#225273)
Scito & Heavenly Voices
The first thing I would do to turn around your trading success is to quit listening to voices from heaven. I think they are the result of some false idea some preacher put into your head, not the real thing.
Try taking a natural and rational approach to investing as opposed to a supernatural one -- which inevitably turns out to be an emotional one -- and you should see things improve.
From what I've seen since I've been on Kitco, get yourself a futures account and just do what APH does. It would seem to be much better than heeding voices from heaven.

The Preacher

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:25 - ID#269245)
I will attempt to explain in greater detail later, but ...
at this point I am beginning to think that inflation affects, this time around in the US, will occur with close correlation to currency ( US$ ) value loss - a double strike. I am considering transfering all non-gold funds ( US$ ) into Swiss Francs and oil ( except, of course, what I may need for food, clothing, and shelter ) . Any thoughts? - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:25 - ID#401460)
Scito (HELP !!!!)

Just a quick note. I dont know if any one can help you. You were probably led to Gold by God but you most likely just jumped in and did your own thing, rather than waiting for the rest of his guidance. We have to be careful not o do things our way. This does not mean we sit around on our fat rear ends, waiting for him to dump a ton of Gold in our lap - no we have to do our part.
We have to do research, talk to those in the know, and get on our knees and pray a lot before jumping into the fire.

Especially when it comes to investing and investing in Gold in particular; one has to be careful to not let the gambling aspect of this business grab hold of ones emotions and thought processes.

I am not clear on how you lost your investment. I am the proud owner of RYO and PGU; I will ride them all of the way down, as far as they go, and just pray that they will return to life someday. I don't even want to know how much I am down, I rest in the knowledge that Gold will eventually come back. I would much rather be in Gold at this level than the Dow at 8800.

In this kind of environment I am not sure misplaced stops work. You should be buying as they go down rather than selling.

If you are looking to invest $1200 and reap a return that will negate your losses over night - I think you are misguided; and further, this is most likely how you got in your present situation. If you buy a GOOD low priced Gold mining stock and wait as long as it takes you will make some money.

You will be ok. We all go through an educational process when we invest, that many times, unfortunately, cost us dearly financially sometimes. Hopefully, you have learned from your experience, now move forward. Life goes on "seek good council".


(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:35 - ID#393224)
$$1200 !!!!
Jeeeeeeeeeeeees, mate. I thought you were talking about real money.

Nicks advice:
Option #1-- Tell your missus/girlfriend that you love her and to get dressed up 'cause you're going out to the best restaurant in town, then a fancy nightclub, limousines, getting very drunk, staying at the best hotel in town--tip big-time to all the staff and have them pamper you--wake up with one helluva hangover and no money. PS--leave the bible at home.

Option #2-- As $$1200 is going to make bugger-all difference to your life--you have got to go for a hundred bagger. Lottery tickets are out--they're a million to one and a waste of money. Go to the library--look up gold stocks--find one with heap-big ground and no $$ that is selling for just a few cents. Buy shares in that company, put them away and forget about them. Now that you've learned some library/internet skills--start your education. Keep your regular job and save your $$. In a few years when you have learned what money and life are all about, have another go.

Option #3-- Take your girl to the nicest jewellery store in town . Have her pick out a $50 000 necklace made of gold and jewels. Buy it with a cheque. The manager will tell you that you won't be able to pick it up until the cheque clears. Then go and do Option # 1. I guarantee that you will have the best night of your life.

Cheers, Nick.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:36 - ID#401460)
derivatives losses

Friday March 20, 2:02 am Eastern Time
Chronology of corporate derivatives losses


(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:45 - ID#401460)
Nick@C (Scito)

Good post - I may try that myself.

Scito, option 2 was what I was trying to suggest, Nick@C presented it much more clearly and concisely.

Good Night and Good Luck to All


John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:56 - ID#24135)
What was the Q of minus one earthspin
For Crusty
Thats a good question Salty and a tough one to answer
but Ill try in 000 oz for 1997.

Area , Auto catalyst demand gross , Recovery, %%
USA , 840 , 290, 35
Japan , 255 , 55, 21
Europe , 455 , 25, 5

USA , 1580 , 105 , 6
Japan , 245 , 30 , 12
Europe, 1080 , 5 , 1

These numbers are from Johnson Matthey
It looks like the Americans are miserly buggers
for platinum, and the Europeans couldnt be botherred.
The Japanese are somewhere in between. I dont know if
this is a function of technical stuff, or economics,
or national taste.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 02:57 - ID#22956)
scito........$167/mth....rule of 72....long term....compound interest...etc,etc.
save 800 more bucks and purchase yourself an IRA for '97 ( time is running out, eh? ) . Do not chase your losses and throw good money at bad. Save your money, dude, and do your is the ONLY winning strategy. And read 'the Richest Man in Babylon'. 10%..... ( that's easy ) . And read what Donald posts, every time.

I get those 'great time to buy gold' thingies all the time. Remember, they go into the blue ( recycle ) can, not the trash can. Mother Earth will also thank you in the long term.

go plat ( ! ) ...go silver ( ! ) .....go...



(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:07 - ID#255151)

You're on a roll, mate! Can't wait to tell that lawyer joke at work. Personally, I like Option #3. BTW, looks like I'll be a paying subscriber. ( er, you DO accept cheques, eh? )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:12 - ID#22882)
US Treasury is irking Japan

Advice from the US Treasury's dear Bobby column and ghost written by a gal names Abby J. C. is getting Hashimoto real mad.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:24 - ID#393224)
I'll take the necklace instead, mate.
Is BC up to 100% yet? I think we'll have to do a stock market/Bimbo index. Where is Donald when we need him??

(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:25 - ID#257148)
Platinum, Gold. Paper, Ne'er the Twain shall meet, save in Babylon: The Lottery of..
I asked whether your Plat data was from Interim or Final JM report. as I only have interim, I was wondering whether yours was more up to date. Looks like same recovery data as I have too.

Now de Richest Man in Babylon has some wise words for growing money, parables of gold. And some you gotta take with a grain of salt.

Did you write the Million Dollar Bank Note? Cos sometimes you sound like Sam Clements. I like that in a Stryne...

Uh oh, I just remembered the Story "The Lottery of Babylon" by Nobel Prize winner Goerge Luis Borges. One of the greatest short stories about money and chance in Literature. Perhaps it's on the web somewhere?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:33 - ID#335184)
Why does Japan refuse to reflate their economy ? A stronger US$ would help the region's exports, but would be a disaster for debtors with US $ denominated debt.
What does the group think of the real reasons ?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:36 - ID#257148)


(Fri Mar 20 1998 03:43 - ID#228283)

Think about Bart's offer on the Mounties ( upper right,this page ) . I'd buy 4,put 'em in my matress,and on Christmas Day,1999,decide if I want to sell at a large profit or small loss. What a deal!!!

G'day auratious and Nick@C ...filled the p/up this A.M. with gasoline,87 octane ( el cheapo ) @ 1.019 $U.S.gallon. About .67 cents are fed.,state,and local taxes.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:00 - ID#257148)
oil and flatulence
See, I just knew there'd be a problem. Lowest Octane in NZ is 91. I need 96, ( I gotta sunroof that lets in the rain too. We get semi-tropical deluges here sometimes in Autumn, fortunately, only when I leave the sun-roof open, well that's jest part of the story ) The price has been dropping this week, so I shall advise in half-a-spin, however Oil Co margins are currently 25%. We have some of the most expensive fuel in the world. And the oldest cars. No Emission standards, altho beautiful jewel has complained about windy from time to time.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:09 - ID#393224)
G'day. Petrol ( gasoline ) here is $A.74/litre for unleaded low octane. I'll let the maths whizzes take it from here.

Auralottorious--Sam Clemens ( MT ) --one of my favourites. Invested squillions in a typewriter that never worked. Was ahead of his time in a big way. Being ahead of your time is often the road to poverty. Ask any goldbug.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:17 - ID#228283)
@aurator...octane...snowroof...Edsel...wish I had more gold...

O.K.... 91 octopusses here in the chilly Midwest goes for about $1.26 ( give or take ) per U.S. Gallon. I understand litres and drachmas but not dinars and chickens, yet.
Top of Dow is near; Mother wants to buy Microsoft at the market.
Chicken bones say," GOLD will be great in '98.'

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:29 - ID#257148)
They call me "The Wind."

Being ahead of ma time has taught me some expensive, tho cheap in hindsight, lessons. I'd rather look a little bit further up the road ahead ( which is why I value so many posters here, where's that Lantern-carrying Moselle when you need him? ) than follow in ANOTHER's footsteps.

If proof be needed, WB's silver purchase made deep footprints for the lemmings to fall into..

Gee, it's easy to be smart in a rising Dow market eh? Looks like blow-off time, I dunno what effect tax timing has for you mericans, but my guess is that the rumbles I'm hearing is real bad Dow indigestion, I can see that the wind is starting to back up. There'll be one or two polite belches, then an embarassing baritone barfoo breath, perhaps in late July ( Independence day is so "UP" - I wouldn't want to rain on any parades ) by your "fall" the pressure in the alimentary canal of the FRB is gonna start getting real constricted, one, final, killer fart in October 98. Just so Pitts can come back and crow "right month, wrong year."

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:29 - ID#228283)
@Nick@C...Holy Taxripoff Nickman!!!

that's about $3.00 a gallon give or take. What do they do with all that cash? Bet the're buying back all the gold they sold .

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:35 - ID#257148)
You ain't heard nothing yet. I'd like my data to be accurate so wait a half, but I know that the price of gasoline is just one more thing NZ beats Australia at.

Proud to be a shorn sheep. How about ewe?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:42 - ID#393224)
I hear that you are now taking NZ$$ and putting them on a roll for use in the smallest room in the house. Just to cheer you up:

An elephant and a monkey had become good friends. While wandering through the jungle one day, the elephant fell into a deep pit. The monkey rushed to the nearest road and flagged down a Mercedes Benz. With the help of a rope the Mercedes pulled the elephant out of the pit.
Some time later , the monkey fell into a pit and it was the elephant's turn to rescue him. The elephant just stood over the pit and dropped his dick down so that the monkey could climb out.
This story proves that if you've got a big dick you don't need a Mercedes Benz.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:54 - ID#252391)
Silver in trouble?
Boy if silver fails today and falls to yesterday's low's, man will I be DISAPPOINTED!!! The publicity that WB may have sold 33% of his holding must have this market scared. The mining companies are giving up the hope of $7+ silver. Psychologically this market is going to be washed out and $5 will be the next resting point. Unfortunately, that'll put sheares like CDE $2 away from profitability in silver and with gold $50 away.That'll spell dead money for a while in these securities.

Feeling sucked into a looser, Short term, at least.

Come on Silver prove me wrong - rally past $6.25 and turn around.

Talk about wishful thinking. Doesn't look like $5.80 will hold - going down, down.


(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:56 - ID#228283)
@ The Southern Cross Guys....

It may be written in the stars but here in the chilly Midwest ( and all over the U.S. ) tax time is April 15. According to statistics, over %80 of the peopleo getting their money back for over payment will have had their cheques in hand. Most of the $ will go to 401k or IRAs ( retirement plans ) so the big push in the market should be over by then.
Finally got my brother in law to buy some gold coins for his kids. GO GOLD! Too bad Bart didn't have his deal going at the time...

(Fri Mar 20 1998 04:58 - ID#257148)

Bill for Monitor cleaning heading your way

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:04 - ID#228283)

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:12 - ID#257148)
The same stars. a B-I-G universe. The earth is v small, so are the differences 'twixt the people
I went out to "water the garden" and just saw the S. Cross, and the Milky way, Orion and Sirius looking SSW.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:22 - ID#228283)

Makes me feel pretty insignificant.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:25 - ID#228283)
@all..gotta go..

goodnight from the chilly Midwest...GO PMs!!!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:39 - ID#185448)
To John Disney
Although Turkey has been knocking on the EU-door, nobody has opened it yet and it seems that the coming EMU makes it even more difficult for Turkey to get in. Mostrich-criteria are out of their reach.

But: Greece and Turkey are in fact allies in the NATO, which does not prevent them to provoke each other at any possible opportunity since the times of Alexander the Great. But maybe this is the reason, why they did not throw stones at each other - a thing they nearly could do as far as some of the ( greek ) islands are concerned.

Guess what one of the reasons for Turkey claiming possession of some of them islands is: It is Crude-Oil in the continental shelf.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:44 - ID#255151)

A rabbi, a priest, and a minister walk into a bar. The bartender says, "Is this a joke?"

(Fri Mar 20 1998 05:49 - ID#257148)
The golden heart of humanity

If ever you feel insignificant, look around you. Look around you at this very moment! Say, speak the names of the things you see that have never been alive! speak their names. Say "Brass candle stick". Say "pen" and "glass". say "light switch" say all you see. Make a list. How many objects can you see that have never been alive?

Now. say the names of the things that were once alive, but are no longer.

The oak bookcase. and leather shoes, books and cottons clothes, shoes and make your list. Then say all of the things that you see alive around you that are vegetables, how many? Some flowering plants, some funghi perhaps. Then say all those things that are animals. the pets and insects that you can see at this moment. How many? Then count those that you see that are human beings. That are part of the family of humanity.

It is almost unimaginably impossible to be born a human being. Such a rare event in an inanimate universe! Such a reason for celebration!!

To be born a human is to have the opportunity to share this mysterious universe and to have the gift to explore it. To seek the fountain-head, to look in the mirror, to swim in the glory of life. A human life is never insignificant.

nite nite

(Fri Mar 20 1998 06:18 - ID#248180)
Gold Reserves - Russia Interfax News March 19, 1998
 The Russian government will approve quotas for palladium exports by the end of March, Bloomberg quoted Anatoly Chubais, a first deputy prime minister, as telling Western reporters in Moscow Thursday. "The campaign for the palladium decree will be over by the month's end," he said. Quotas for exports of platinum-group metals, which include palladium, are approved by presidential decree every year. This year's decree was late, causing world palladium prices to rise as Russia is a major supplier. Russia has not exported platinum and related metals for several months due to the absence of approved quotas. Experts believe that the delay with the passage of this year's budget was chiefly to blame for the delay with quotas. Norilsk Nickel is Russia's main palladium producer.

 The gold and hard currency reserves of the Central Bank of Russia have risen by more than $900 million in the last month and currently stand at some $16 billion, Central Bank head Sergei Dubinin told journalists at the State Duma Thursday. The Central Bank's gold reserves now total about 500 tonnes, he said.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:12 - ID#26793)
Japan refuses to reschedule Indonesian debt

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:13 - ID#238295)
BART: Do not ban Hepcat. Insulting as he often is, his forecasts have been right on the money.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:16 - ID#26793)
Moody's downgrades more Japanese banks for credit risk.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:22 - ID#26793)
Japanese yogurt company lost US$813 million in derivative trade (not a typo

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:27 - ID#26793)
Japanese department store bankrupt. Stiffs creditors for 230 billion yen.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:30 - ID#183109)
$30 for POSTAGE?
BART, I'm anxious to help support the Kitco cause, and am more than willing to pay the additional $18 per coin ( as I can buy a gold maple leaf for $307 ) , but what's up with US$30 for postage? I realize that it may be a bit more expensive coming from north of the border, but it sure seems like the postman is making out good on this deal. I'll order anyhow, but wanted to voice my bewilderment. Maybe you could hire someone to drive south and then mail them all for less than $10....just a thought : )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:33 - ID#183109)
If Bart is forced to charge, would hepcat PAY to harass us?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:38 - ID#183109)

As always, delete the "en" from the goldEN-eagle address below.

"To those somewhat familiar with the world's spectrum of gold mining stocks, it has always been an inexplicable enigma why North-American and Australian gold stocks should perennially enjoy much higher Price/Earnings ratios than their South African brethren. Especially so, since historically the South African golds possessed much larger reserves, enjoyed greater profitability, and quite often paid out very handsome cash dividend yields."....

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:42 - ID#368244)
Bart @ Mounties

Bart, the $30 SH charge is for 1 or more coins , not per each? Want to place an order, but don't want to pay $30 each.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:58 - ID#411331)
Does anybody out there know why gold and silver lease rates are unavailable? I like to keep an eye on them, but am I have seen various
interpretations. If lease rates go up, I usually interpret this as bullish. But OLD GOLD has stated that this may represent increased
demand for metal that is subsequently sold short. So lease rates increases may or may not be a bullish sign? Can anyone clarify?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:58 - ID#183109)
Shipping $30.00
Insurance per Unit: $1.30
I didn't mean to imply $30 per coin. I'm interpreting this as $30 per shipment, and $1.30 per coin insurance. The reason I was asking is because my usual coin dealer charges me $10 per shipment including insurance, and over 10 coins is free shipping.


(Fri Mar 20 1998 07:59 - ID#330175)
Jokie.............................................* go gold*
A man, called to testify at the IRS ( The US tax authority )
asked his accountantfor advice on what to wear.
"Wear your shabbiest clothing. Let him think you are a pauper.
"Then he asked his lawyer the same question,
but got the opposite advice.

"Do not let them intimidate you. Wear your
most elegant suit and tie."

Confused, the man went to his rabbi, told him of the
conflicting advice, and requested some resolution of the

"Let me tell you a story," replied the rabbi. "A woman,
about to be married, asked her mother what to wear on her
wedding night. 'Wear a heavy, long, flannel nightgown that
goes right upto your neck.' But when she asked her best
friend, she got conflicting advice.
'Wear your most sexy negligee, with a
V neck right down to your navel."

The man protested: "What does all this have to do
with my problem with the IRS?"

"No matter what you wear, you are going to get .... screwed."

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:01 - ID#288369)
@aurator....Slap! Thanks, I needed that!......
Your 5:49.....absolutely beautiful. This is a wonderful day to be alive, surrounded by life's treasures...and gold is one of them. Grab the glory Goldbugs!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:06 - ID#215208)
Let there be light!
POLARBEAR - I like RSA gold stocks. They perform extremely well when the POG goes up. Many are making money even at today's prices, and they pay great dividends relative to NA stocks. However, the subject Vronsky discusses in your link is the biggest reason I like these stocks. IMHO, the Web will change all this. This time around, when POG picks up and investor interest in gold rises, the Web will open investor's eyes to RSA gold, even if RSA doesn't actively market. This raises the possibility of another 3x to 10x in upside potential, over and above the 3x to 10x that is already there. 100x sounds good to me!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:07 - ID#427357)

EMERGING MARKETS-Untangling value in South Africa
07:51 a.m. Mar 18, 1998 Eastern
By Ben Hirschler

LONDON, March 18 ( Reuters ) - A wind of change blowing through corporate
South Africa has heartened foreign investors and gone some way to offset
concerns about a sluggish economy, money managers said on Wednesday.

``We've always had an underweight position in South Africa, and one of the
reasons has been the pyramids and the cross-holdings and the unclear
corporate structures,'' said Andrew Elder of Aberdeen Asset Management.

``So we're very positive on the latest developments...We prefer purer plays rather than just exposure to corporate South Africa.''

The restructuring of South African companies, notorious for their complex
and disparate cross-holdings, took another step forward last week with two mega mergers in the financial sector.

The latest deals will see the merger of Anglo American Corp of South Africa Ltd's financial interests with RMB Holdings Ltd, and Liberty Life
Association of Africa Ltd linking with Standard Bank Investment Corp Ltd.

These moves follow a shake-up of struggling gold mines and similar tentative steps in the industrial sector.

Premier Group Ltd, for example, emerged this week as a focused food firm
after an unbundling while Safmarine and Rennies Holdings Ltd ( SAFREN ) is
considering restructuring proposals.

Even Anglo American, the ultimate conglomerate, is reconstructing itself
into a more investor-friendly format.

``South Africa is becoming much more transparent,'' said Michael Power of
Baring Asset Management.

``If there is value in South Africa it is much easier to see

``It's now not just a question of where does restructuring go in the
financials but to what extent this whole idea is picked up elsewhere in the market.''

A surging financial sector has powered the Johannesburg stock market to a
strong start this year, with overall prices up 16 percent in dollar terms, according to the International Finance Corp ( IFC/IPRF ) .

But despite the enthusiasm over the untangling of complex structures, which will enable investors to see better the profit-drivers within companies, not everything in the garden is rosy.

``Although South Africa will be attractive on a restructuring story, there are more fundamental macro issues driving investor perceptions,'' said Hilary Wakefield of Old Mutual Asset Management in London.

``The overall market will still be dominated by the worries over commodity pricing, worries over the currency and worries over lack of growth.''

Economists forecast growth in real gross domestic product ( GDP ) this year of no more than two percent, little changed from the 1.7 percent recorded in 1997.

But the picture is brighter going forward following the first of what are
expected to be a series of interest rate cuts, effective last week.

The economy will also receive a tonic via windfall gains for many South
African insurance policyholders following the demutualisation of Sanlam
towards the end of this year and Old Mutual in 1999.

Analysts estimate the moves by the two insurance giants will put some 60
billion rand ( $12 billion ) of free shares in consumers' pockets.

Their listings -- with respective market capitalisations of around 30
billion rand and 50 billion -- will also focus international attention on
the South African market in the second half of 1998.

Fund managers declined to give a view on how the two firms would be received by foreign investors, pending an indication on pricing.

But one commented bluntly: ``No serious investor can ignore them.''
( $ - 4.966 South African Rand )

Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication and
redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:09 - ID#330175)
STUDio.R................and I'll smoke to that--------------------*go team gold*
Aurator ( 5:49 ) ---'Great one' mate but beware of them sunroofs...

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:11 - ID#288369)
@Teddo.....Java Time....Buenos Dias!
Now down to the "little" studio, Audio Technica 4033 maxed, classical tuned....headset up...sing and play like......Tiny Tim...who cares! Tip Toe to the Woodpile....

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:13 - ID#330175)
Poorboys @ Veggies -R-us
Thankx for the ####'s bro but I exchanged all me Loonies for building supplies and I'm sure the damn thing will now SOAR~~~~~~away to hang myself......

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:14 - ID#222231)
Alchemy and Gold

If you benefit from the information in these pages, and/or you would like to
support a worthwhile childrens' charitable cause, please take time to consider
Aid For Autism, an out-of-school centre for children with Autistic Spectrum
Disorders ( a registered charity, please follow link for more information ) .

Under construction- more on Alchemy to follow

Alchemy, the ancient pseudoscience concerned mainly with the transmutation
of base metals into gold, can be traced back to the ancient Greeks... The Arabs
based their alchemy on the Greeks, and were principal sources for European

Most famous of the old Arabian Alchemists was Jabir ibn Haiyan ( 721-815? )
who was known to the West as Geber, the Arabian Prince. Jabir believed that
various metals ( especially gold! ) could be produced by mixing mercury and
sulphur in different proportions. He enjoyed the patronage of the Barmaki Vizier
during the Abbasid Caliphate of Haroon al-Rashid, and died in Kufa.

After the death of Jabir, nearly a century elapsed before Islam produced a
worthy successor: this was the Persian chemist and physician Abu Bakr
Muhammad ibn Zakariyya al-Razi ( 866-925 ) ( known to the West as Rhazes ) .

The Arabs also have a great tradition of poetic arts; this was illustrated most
appropriately in conjuntion with Alchemy by the "Alchemy Research Centre",
which used to be at>, and
contained a poem concerning the themes of Alchemy as transmutation of base
metals into gold ( Mercury metal transformed into Another... ) - unfortunately the
entire site at ( dated October
1996 ) seems to have disappeared in mid-March 1998 just a few days after it
was found:

"DialSpace - Announcement
This website has been removed. If you have a bookmark or a link to
this page,
please remove these as this page will disappear shortly.
PIPEX Dial Webmaster" [19 Mar 1998]

Excerpt from above site titled "ARC: A A Aziz":


Mercury are you the element
sealed in the sacred vessel
of putrification and decay?
Mercury are you the catalyst
that would transform
from lower to higher?
Mercury you are missing the creation
of the Most High's
Mercury are you the solution
that kills the lesser
and multyplys the greater?

Beyond you
is Another
In you
is Another
for you are an allusion
to Another
beyond the thought of you

After this Alchemical poem was first described ( under Poetry for Goldbugs ) a
poster on the Kitco discussion group ( see list of web chats at the golden eagle
site ) made a connection between 'A A Aziz' ( probably the author of the above
poem ) ; an anonymous Kitco poster 'ANOTHER'; and Prince Alwaleed bin Talal
bin Abdul Aziz al Saud ( who is described under Investor Bios ) .

In a Kitco posting by 'Pete' made on March 16th at 10:32-

'click " Alchemy and Poetry for Goldbugs ( March 10, 1998, revised
March 12 ) NEW!
cick "ANOTHER-A A Aziz"
Go back... and read "INVESTOR BIOGRAPHIES" '

However, 'Preacher' pointed out ( Mar 16 1998 13:46 ) that Vronsky ( of the Gold
Eagle site ) had identified a Sheik Abu Bekr al-Rashid as having 'the same
perspective as ANOTHER'. Curiously, there is an Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn
Zakariyya al-Razi and a Caliph Haroon al-Rashid who feature prominently in
the early Arabian history of Alchemy, as mentioned above.

It is worth noting that Crown Prince Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud of Saudi
Arabia - another 'A A Aziz' has been described as a "noted poet"- unfortunately I
have lost the reference where this was said. I have seen no similar description
applied to Prince Alwaleed.

'A A Aziz' could, of course, be anybody, even a pseudonym; the above may be
nothing more than an interesting coincidence.

Bully Beef
(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:18 - ID#259282)
Platinum and palladium are up due to the fact that
the fuel cells being developed by BALLARD POWER use twice as much of the material as coventional catalytic converters. This was reported on CBC news at 7:45 this morning. If you didn't know already I consider this my first real contribution. This is scary for oil. something tells me the Ballard fuel cells may be more than an off chance. This has implications for plat. and pal. recovery operations.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:20 - ID#183109)
SA. shares and the net, or LACK THERE OF....
DJ, right on!

However, these SA companies could do us shareholders and themselves a GIANT service by helping to distribute up-to-date info on their companies. During the countless hours and hours I spent gathering all my info for the GOLDen EAGLE article on RANGY, I was continually amazed at the lack of a concerted effort to encourage investment in S.A. This seems to be changing, and I think I have finally found many of the most useful S.A. sites for gathering info on my investments in SA, but really, how much would it cost to gen up a web site and post some data?1/100 of 100% of their budget? IT IS MINDBOGGLING TO ME THAT EVERY S.A. COMPANY DOESN'T HAVE A WEB PAGE. And as VRONSKY states on GOLDen EAGLE, if they won't do it, then they should hire someone that will. Maybe they'll get around to it at POG $1000, which will add a nice final blowoff top to our mega-gains in these stocks.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:21 - ID#410198)
Bart,the differance between, my show and Howard(whats his name)I try to appeal
to a higher moral value,any idiot can appeal to the lower depravity of man,BC is another good example,check it out for yourself I'am on live audio on the net you will need streamworks ( which you can download for free ),Bart keep up the good work,and for those who are to cheap to get a Mountie,go find another chat room.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:35 - ID#28594)
Are we not lucky none of this is going to affect us! [sarcasm]...
South China Morning Post--Business Fri Mar 20 1998

Asian crisis sees JF profit plunge 82pc
Jardine Fleming Holdings, the merchant banking arm of the Jardines group, yesterday said profit after tax plunged 82.9 per cent last year as it was
rocked by the turmoil in Asian financial markets.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:41 - ID#222231)
Drinking and Driving.
Yesterday a cop pulled me over while I was driving home. He asked me, "Have you been drinking", I said, "yes", he asked me to get out and I said, "why? Do'nt you believe me?"

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:41 - ID#24135)
You call that DEEP???

For Salty
Mine is interim too. Dont you find it somehow
reassurring that 2 copies of the same report
contain the exact same information although
they live in different parts of the world ??
I think it's grand.
For RJ
Checked out info on RSA platinum mines. It's
as I remembered . depths range from 600 meters
to a maximum of 1500 meters.
Hardly worth digging a hole if you're not
gonna go down at least600 meters.
For brother Oris ..
How deep are the russian Palladium mines??
Have you got any idea??

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:46 - ID#258129)
Tripple withches day
Looks like it is going to be just another day of records in Europe

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:47 - ID#328159)
Pete @ 08:14
- Aid for Autism
- Alchemy, Another, etc. Not on site!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:48 - ID#410194)
Gold & Silver news
The Gold market continued to ignore the volatility in both Silver and Platinum which is proof that the Central bank sale schemes is still weighing on prices.

The bank of France suggested again yesterday that they are not prepared to sell Gold which is neither bearish or bullish at this point.

The climb in the open interest is a positive sign though and those who are preparing for an upcoming rally must like this development.

There is now also a stronger possibility for a downturn of the US Dollar index in the short-term which should be supportive.

In Silver, yesterday's sharp bounce proves that there is strong buying interest under the market but looking at the chart, Silver still needs to move higher in order to avoid a negative looking picture.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:51 - ID#317193)
Once again, thank for your posts!! A great service to us all. I remain convinced that a derivatives crash is in the works. Trillions and trillions of $US out there that are probably very "naked". Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 08:59 - ID#222231)
Connection is Fiendbear Site-Collin Seymour Page. Sorry about that. Geez, did'nt know you were so picky! Why the 1st link? Are you trying to tell me something?

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:03 - ID#24135)
A man named Brett
For Polarbear/Vronsky.
One problem that seems to be surfacing locally is
the market's attitude toward Brett Kebble. People didn't
like his paper takeover of Buffelsfontein and Blyvoor.
Now he seems to be coming up with some kind of
idea on Randfontein and Western Areas. This has everyone
selling everything he is involved in .. rangold, DDeeps,
CAM, and Randfontein. All are off today.
He seems to think he is a great visionary. Many others
disagree ( reminds me of hepcat ) . He did a great job
building Rangold in the first place. But his performance
with JCI cant win any prizes .. maybe it was Mzi Khumalo's
fault .. but Kebble has to take some of the blame.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:03 - ID#42365)
Mint on overtime or something..
Talked to Mike Fuljenz earlier this week who had recently made a trip to one of the mints, said the presses are running nonstop, and there are pallets of money everywhere.. pallets and pallets of tha stuff...

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:08 - ID#42365)
Bully Beef
yeah check out these power cells do use a platinum wire wrappedaround a small quartz bowl... there is a diagram there.. explination too. Go platinum.. err i mean Gold..

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:13 - ID#293184)
(Midwesterner, Bishop and others---Re: Allegheny Mines-- Huge discovery)
Please define what this discovery means in dollar terms. I have had a position in Allegheny Mines for several years. It appears it is coming back to life in a big way. Does anyone know in dollar terms what it would mean if AYM had a million tons of base metals or even ten million if thats possible. Can any of this be extrapolated from the data so far available. Can any of you play some what if games on this property?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:19 - ID#348129)
G-Nutz: Yep the presses are turnin. M2 is hitting new highs almost weekly.
One wonders where all this money is going with Inflation apparently in check?
Is the stock market really soaking up that much money???

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:35 - ID#28594)
Always helpful to read what the other side of the world is thinking...
Economic Times of India Fri Mar 20, 1998

Asia currencies strong but remain sluggish
Sonali Desai

ASIAN currencies held on but failed to extend their gains today as traders responded sleepily to the US dollar's late retreat below 130.00 yen.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:39 - ID#31868)
Excellent article. Cheers.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:40 - ID#401460)



(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:41 - ID#287358)
Bloomberg T.V.
Concern over central bank sales are easing. Just read this.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:43 - ID#183109)
nimensei wo motsu hanashi desu ka?
John, interesting comment on Brett.

Hopefully since it is his father Roger who is chairman of DURBAN DEEP and RANDGOLD, and not Brett himself, DROOY and RANGY won't be affected much.

If no one likes his deals thought John, how is he able to pull them off? You'd know much better than I, but I'd think that RANGY and DURBAN shareholders hold him in high esteem for all the great stuff he has done for them. Thoughts?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:44 - ID#28594)
One LAST time--from China's new PM
India Economic Times Fri Mar 10 1998

Chinese Premier Zhu Rongji's pledge to defend the Hong Kong dollar's link to the US dollar and firm ruling out of a yuan devaluation also
sparked little reaction.

``China's renminbi ( yuan ) cannot be devalued,'' Mr Zhu told a widely-watched news conference on the final day of the annual session of the National People's Congress.

``This is an objective that we must meet because it will have a bearing not only on the development of China but also on the prosperity and stability of Asia,'' he said.

COMMENT: As argued in December, it is the POLITICAL CURRENCY that
is of vital importance for the Chinese...not "de money"...

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:46 - ID#246224)
The Golden Alchemy: Mercury was used in processing gold. (cf A A Aziz' poem)
Mercury will 'liquify' other metals into alloys with itself. In a sense the other metal goes into 'solution' in mercury. The mercury/gold solution was then heated to evaporate it and the gold remained. This was done until even the 1950's in the USA, just prior to the discovery that it is toxic to the nervous system in even small quanitities. I'm sure it is still used in 'closed loop' systems somewhere.

Mercury is quite a 'magical' metal in this sense and I assume the alchemists were quite fasinated by its properties: especially when they found out they could extract gold with it ( from lower grade ores ) . This must have mystified them as they were not able to see the gold in the ore, but mercury seemed to 'transform' the 'lower to the higher'. One also wonders why we depict alchemists as wizzened twitching old gentlemen: the result of metal poisonings??

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:50 - ID#342282)
Bart re T shirts
Sorry, I must have got the wrong message from posts. I think you are right. Thanx

(Fri Mar 20 1998 09:56 - ID#28594)
For those interested in "Gold" + "alchemy", I highly recommend...
A Website on Chinese Alchemy

The Golden Elixir is an introduction to some facets of the history and doctrines of Chinese alchemy. It consists of a collection of articles, primary sources, bibliographic tools and other materials. This page provides direct access to all documents. If you want to read short
descriptions of each item, follow the links to the main sections of this website on the left column.

COMMENT: Note, upper left-hand of page, Chinese symbol for gold ( well,
one of them ) ...doesn't it look like a sturdy little house? {:- )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:07 - ID#238295)
Realistic; I want to retract the attack I made on you recently. Your comments are indeed realistic. Gold will have a hard time getting above $300 on a sustained basis anytime soon. But we should see such a breakout later this year after most EMU related selling is over.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:08 - ID#222231)
Bully Beef, Reify, All
WOW, This developement can be nothing BUT GOOD for our enviroment. I made a statement several days ago to the effect that a new technology is propbably being developed to replace or lessen the use of crude oil. Thank you for the link. I had no idea ( as usual ) of this Ballard Fuel Cell. There seems to be substantial capital and developement going into these Ballard Fuel Cells, plus current use of this technology for stationary power plants. COULD THIS EXPLAIN PART OF THE REASON FOR THE SURGE IN PLATINUM?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:15 - ID#183109)
To any rookies thinking about buying RANGY, don't EVER place a market order...unless you're trying to create some capital losses for tax season, or some nice gains for the market makers.

Today's high so far 1 1/2, low 31/32, three times the volume of Durban. Looks like someone, as John mentioned, is doing some blind panic selling...a nice time to add some more shares : )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:17 - ID#28594)
This url will be more helpful--it provides an excellent overview
THE GOLDEN ELIXIR Articles, Short Notes, Reviews
A Short Introduction to Chinese Alchemy
Fabrizio Pregadio

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:22 - ID#25171)
MERCURY ,the God of coomerce and science and serving as messenger for the other god is one of the patron of alchemist AND free masons.
Since the ancient , who ,for some of them, made the trip to Egypt to be initiated, there has been a "scientific" and a philosophical alchemy. Sometime distinct , sometime not.
The philosophical Alchemists see in the transmutation a symbol of the wordl to come.A world without nation and one human race which he controls through a world government.
It is in that direction that worldwide organizations like the UN, IMF, TRILATERAL etc work and they want us to be like sheeps who rejoice at their last meal before slaughtering. ( when they have one! )
If the technical and poetic side of Alchemy deserve a sympathetic consideration, beware the dark side of the force.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:23 - ID#317193)
Old Gold/Realistic
Gold may well stay in the dolldrums for awhile. However, a derivatives crisis where currencies implode would cause gold to rocket. This could occur at any time. We'll never have advance notice of such an event. Holding physical is, thus, very safe. Futures contracts, which I have also, are very risky. Hedge your bets people. Derivatives will undo this present paper game. When, God only knows. My guess is soon. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:26 - ID#28594)
An interesting read....
However, European gold's potential role for backing the Euro as a new currency would have several political advantages which could prove to be decisive in the upcoming competition between US$, Euro, and Yen as reserve currencies:

1. Establishing confidence by the Europeans during the difficult start up phase
2. Prevention of flight of capital from present hard currency nations to Switzerland
3. Providing some resistance to challenge by FOREX traders
4. Allowing gold to remain within the present national central banks

The total amount of gold held by European central banks ( 14,400 metric tons ) would fit very well for backing 100% of the needed amount of circulating Euro bills and coins ( still, unlike Switzerland's holdings, it would be far from enough for backing the much larger monetary
aggregate M1 ) .

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:27 - ID#401460)
Appears to be a 2 yr cycle, dont you think?^TYX&d=5y

Gold and 30 yr rates follow the same track.^TYX&d=1y^TYX&d=3m

Bookmark this site and follow the 30 yr Bond ( ^TYX ) , appears that the bottom has been put in and that we are on the way up, with interest rates and - GOLD!

This is in agreement with yesterdays inflation and Asia news.


Chase Bank 4500

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:28 - ID#251268)
Aurator,octane levels,
id you realy need a boost in octane 2to3 mothballs per gallon
does the trick nicely ,no joke ,only thing is the smell is hard
to get off your hands so wear gloves if your going to try,itt
will boost gas milage and performance.thanks for rambling
on about the stars and being alive,whew what a gift we are givin.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:29 - ID#33650)
Golden Alchemist: I am much better than the mediaeval masters. They required Mercu
ry which is a real asset. I just need Deutschmarks and Dollars and Yen and Francs from my customers and convert it into gold with a snap of my finger! It takes me an hour to convert worthless paer into Gold ! This truly is the Art Of The Century !

It is a sure longterm bet. The illuminati or the Central bankers or the bureaucrats are going to destroy ( or have already destroyed ) our currencies, either by plan to gain control by accumulating Gold or by ignorance. It does not matter.
Join me in the only sure and real lottery on this planet:
Go Gold!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:36 - ID#222231)
Are you truly serious about mothballs? Does this have any detrimental affect on engine? Do you have mechanical background?


(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:45 - ID#222231)
Can I use your mothballs on this beauty. A 1966 T-Bird Convertible with a 428 CI engine that needs as much octane as I can put to it. ( NOTICE THE GOLDEN COLOR! ) Ford Thunderbird

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:50 - ID#28594)
Pete--this may interest you...
Found whilst double-checking Petroconsultants, Geneva, report of the "global production of oil to decline"...[which proved to be TRUE
"Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Letter"

Studio.R@Waiting.not.much.longer You might want to
take a peek too...cause it says, "Few Decisionmakers Appreciate Seriousness...or how little time remains [before peak oil production occurs and starts to DECLINE thus RISING prices DRAMATICALLY {:- ) ]

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:54 - ID#411331)
@All: Take a look at the Kitco 24 hr gold and silver charts. That's a pattern that I have never s
I know that its triple witching day, but gold and silver in perfect tandem, with a totally linear pattern of appreciation is somewhat unusual
is it not? Comments?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:55 - ID#342282)
Polarbear re your 7:38
Merchandising!! I like your work here--Tornado warning BBL

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:57 - ID#251268)
Pete and aurator(your 4.00 post)
absolutely it works,the only side effects that I have heard of
is that sometimes the binder that holds them together can clog up
fuel filter but never experienced this,I originaly heard about this
on a tv call in mechanic show and the guy said he did it every time he filled up.You might try to disolve a few in gas and see if there is any solids.I,ve been told during WW2 gas rationing they added them
to kerosene to make gas substitute?It's no majic trick they are e something or another.Made a big differnce on my v8 perf.and milege and marginal on my rice burner 4 banger but it does boost milege and performance.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:58 - ID#342282)
Pete, Bully B et al re Ballard cell
I checked site other day and it's my considered opinion this is worth running thru the old bean seriously. BBL tornado

(Fri Mar 20 1998 10:59 - ID#33650)
@Scito: the past of least resistance by Robert Fritz
Hello Scito, you are my brother, I did several times what you have only done once, yet I am still alive and getting stronger and wiser every day, since my losses enlighten my spirit. Yes, God is inside you and he wants you to be rich and have fun and enjoy life and he constantly tells you what to do. But you must listen to him not your ego. When you lose on "inner voice" it was the voice of your ego not your inner God. His voice is low and the ego is crying loud.
What to do? I just happen to read the book in the header and it only costs 1% of your fortune. So I suggest you give it a try. Fritz tells you how to create the reality you like and that is what life is all about. Maybe that there is better advice than mine, but 12$ is not much of an investment. And if you decide the book is all nonsense then do the opposite of it and become successful. Accept that you are in a personal bear market and that a bear market ends when investor sentiment turns. So invest in yourself and start a never ending bull. Good luck and tell us what you did when you finally made it. We all have to turn our bear into bull and will then need your advice. You are lucky, man, you have made a bottom formation ! Ewave and fibonacci yourself into prosperity

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:10 - ID#411233)
@Hamlet--Every time I take the path of least resistance,
I end up at the Government run Casino-Cathouse.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:15 - ID#410194)
Still a few hours left to the session and to the week for the "big purchase" to come through and creating the crush to cover and bringing Gold back to the $320 - $360 $US range.

Date: Mon Mar 09 1998 07:55
The purchase of large physical stocks of gold in Nov. did send a message to the CBs. They did begin slowdown of sales/easing. The "management tool of gold in the 90s" ( see Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 13:08 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253 ) is now to go into reverse! A large purchase, now, is sending another message, "bring gold back into $320 to $360 US$ range. We should see this in five to ten days. This will be a hard thing, as it may create a crush to cover. Let us watch this "new gold market", as it is not as before.
I will post later in march!

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:21 - ID#24135)
Brett .. continued
for Polar bear ..
How does Brett Kebble do his deals.. It goes like
this. He
1. gets a controlling interest in a company say
2. then makes an offer to the that company from another
say Durban deep to take it over and form a NEW company
comprised of the old deeps and the newly added Blyvoor.
the basis of the takeover will be say 1 share of
the new company for say four shares of the blyvoor .
to blyvoor shareholders, and 1:1 to existing deeps
shareholders. The problem is that individual shareholders
are trapped. They can sell, but there are no buyers.
They have no other alternative. He has voted his own
stock in the new company and in deeps to make/and to
accept his offer. He feels that he's doing everybody
a favour. People sometimes like to make their own
He would make friends if he simply made shareholders
an offer above the market price for their stock. But
he doesnt play that way .. not machievellian enough.
So the market has begun to hate him. I talked to a
guy today that had provided info for an article to the
press yesterday to the above effect. Apparently the
result was that Kebble chewed him out on the phone for
an hour.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:30 - ID#33650)
@Rumpled: The path of least resistance...
... is what we all will ever be able to follow. This is the wisdom of Robert Fritz. And he says that everybody has a unique structure where our life lives run down the path of our personal least resistance, inevitably ( Perhaps I would not end up with the Casino, I would prefer the beautiful and willing girls of this planet ) Fritz says that we can change the structure ( some others will call it the blueprint in our quantum physical continuum, I don't care as long as I am in charge ) ) and thus change the courses of our lives ( as opposed to the curses of our wives )


(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:33 - ID#25171)
"We should see THIS" Without being to soft on Another , it is possible that "THIS" refers to a large purchase. This large purchase could be the one of CBs buying belgium Gold and eventually it will lead to higher Gold price as 1 ) the transaction seems to have occured at a price above market level and 2 ) it shows that their is CB buying interest on production cost level

Give it some time after all the longer it stays there , the more we can buy.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:37 - ID#86291)
Thank You robnoel,clone,Pete,and 6pak for Your Warm Welcome....
...and thank you Crunch, for your challenging comment from Wednesday.
The answer to the question, how the Rothschilds et. al. could have their way with the Federal Reserve System lies in the role of the member banks of the FR Banks. The FR Banks are "owned" by their member banks which are private commercial banks. This question is at least as important for the understanding of the FR System, as is the way in which the three top layers of the FR System book the "proceedes" of money creation, convert depts into assets within the three layers and make the Federal Government pay back the premium plus interest which was originally created out of thin air.
Please tell me if I am wrong in the way I see level two - the Federal Banks - interconnected with level three - the private commercial member banks. This is crucial stuff.
( Level One of the FED System: the FED headed through AG;
level two: the FED Banks;
level three: the member banks, which are the owners of the FED Banks. )

Alberich the Dwarf

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:37 - ID#317193)
I have noticed your posts indicate a touch of distain for our beloved Another, whoever he/she might be. How unkind!!! Do you not trust the words of one you know not? I must say, however, Anothers only "advice" is to buy physical and that advice I agree with. Hope my June and Dec. contract don't cost me to much. What the heck, you only get to go round once in life and Uncle Sam is my partner in gains and loses. I'm planning on seeing $360 within the hour, will sell one June contract for only a $45. gain per oz. to any interested party. Jump quick, time is a wasting. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:45 - ID#222231)
The e-mail address you gave me bounced back. Please verify your address and send to me at>

(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:48 - ID#22956)
This could be a joke
On a plane bound for New York the flight attendant approached a

blonde sitting in the first class section and requested that she

move to economy since she did not have a first class ticket. The

blonde replied, "I'm blonde, I'm beautiful, I'm going to New York

and I'm not moving."

Not wanting to argue with a customer the flight attendant asked

the copilot to speak with her. He went to talk with the woman

asking her to please move out of the first class section. Again,

the blonde replied, "I'm blonde, I'm beautiful, I'm going to New

York and I'm not moving." The copilot returned to the cockpit and

asked the captain what should he do.

The captain said, "I'm married to a blonde, and I know how to

handle this."

He went to the first class section and whispered in the blonde's

ear. She immediately jumped up and ran to the economy section

mumbling to herself, "Why didn't anyone just say so?"

Surprised, the flight attendant and the copilot asked what he

said to her that finally convinced her to move from her seat. He

said, "I told her the first class section wasn't going to New



Hey........It's Friday ( here anyway ) ...



(Fri Mar 20 1998 11:52 - ID#251268)
Eh EB ?
sugar rally,I should think so.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:15 - ID#411233)
Is this site really "sticky" today, or has my puter finally got cancer from all the cig smoke?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:15 - ID#432148)
Gold/Silver ratio...
Looking at an hourly gold silver ratio, I see a steady uptrend

by gold for about the last nineteen days, from a low around 42 to the

present level about 50. With the ratio having just come off an historic

low, can anyone tell me, absent a break in this uptrend, why an immediate

upmove in silver is in the cards.? I believe the high area for this ratio is in the 75-80 area.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:16 - ID#390249)
Debate resurfaces over ECB gold, currency reserves
Interesting article -

Lurker 777
(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:20 - ID#317247)
Where we going today in the DJIA? Bought some March 525 Puts for 6 and now they are Quoting 4. Should I dump or ride?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:20 - ID#22956)
*Cautiously Optimistic*
Yeah, that's it! I am cautiously optimistic regarding Sugar. I have been w/w for the correct time ( when is that? ) to jump on board. I have been wanting to go long and at the same time short this market on the rally ( follow the trend ) . Each time I pick up the phone to call I put it back down. If this next 'dive' does not make new lows I will go in deep. What the hell, sugar is dirt cheap in October. How can you lose?? ( let me count the ways ) .

Savage and I will be right in on this nice move and the damnable 'Christ-Child' will be the wind behind our sails, eh Savage-One? H M! ( $$ ) ! cut some cane


sorry bart for the off-topic but MikeS once posted a correlation for sugar/gold...or was that sugar/silver....Mike?? Let us hope for a sugar rally.......EH!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:29 - ID#57232)
Quality of Kitco posts
All: I think the quality of our posts have improved considerably over the last few months. Enjoyed reading almost everything today!

chas: Get my post last night? That was a bit of free association, but I have no analytical method that could apply. I think the key to the T/A - astronomical connection is evaluation of any numerical data that is known to be modulated by the sun/moon/planets, and its correlation with market data. Still need a reliable 'turning point' indicator of some kind that works with markets for cross correlation analysis to work in any meaning ful manner. Wish I could clone myself 3-4 times! Have to do my day job too.

An astroinvesting model would work with any market involving human behavior -- even the gold markets, when the CB's give up controlling the price of gold. Some astroinvestors already have pretty good ones, and have merged them with more conventional methods.

If there is an Astronomical ( Astrological as Mike S would say ) connection with human behavior -- and I think there is -- the easiest way to find it will be through study of the markets. I am interested from the investment point of view, and from my hunch that there are some physical phenomena that we humans do not recognize. My hope is that it will aid study of 'Zero point energy', and perhaps even the hidden concepts behind the physics of 'gravity'. Certainly Einstein thought that the question of 'what is gravity' was much more than gm1m2/ ( rsquared ) .

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:31 - ID#29082)
Buffett's silver lining....

KATONAH, N.Y., March 20 /PRNewswire/ -- Warren Buffett's purchase of 20% of the world's silver may anticipate a new use for the metal in fuel cells, according to an upcoming CPR-SPECIAL REPORT: BUFFETT'S SILVER LINING, available Monday, April 6, 1998.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:32 - ID#280245)
Everyone is out of step but US?
DNYA Ekonomi - Politika
March 20, 1998

DPT Warns: "Negative Affects of the Asian Crisis Will Continue"
A recent DPT ( State Planning Organization ) survey shows the negative impact of the Asian crisis on Turkish economy. According to the survey it is not only Turkey's exports to Far East that are threatened, but also to Europe and other OECD countries. Foreign funding is getting difficult and foreign payments balance is nearing crisis. Several sectors will be affected besides textile, especially iron and steel, tobacco, cotton and cotton thread, fruit and vegetables. The decrease in prices of Asian autos will further force domestic automotive industry

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:33 - ID#22956)
on your own there...
Lurker777 - I have posted MANY times since I have been here at kitco that I would not be in this *behemoths* way ( either way for that matter ) . I have traded the indexes only rarely ( on the long side ) . I do know the laws of gravity but I can not and will not guess or presume to know what will happen with this market from day to day. APH, Oldman, and a sprinkling of others would be best for day trading conjecture here. I am mostly a pattern and trend trader. The trend for the DOW is scary looking but it has only shown us up. All I can say is ( with jaw dropped ) is............WOW! step out of it's way and look towards all horizons


(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:45 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John,

1. I do not have any idea on Russian platinum mines.
I'm afraid I know nothing on technology of mining
in general... Don't want lie to you.

2. Your post 00:48 to me is absolutely precious one.
After adding your thought to the previous mix
in my head, I cannot believe it could be in fact
all that simple - redistribution of reserves in Europe?
Why not, then you do not need to brake your head
trying to figure out who is THE BIG BUYER and who is
fooling honest goldbugs.

I LIKE IT, it is simple and logical!

AND of course, they gonna keep their reserves,
just in case, Turkey and Greece and Monaco...

I think the problem started when it became known
who were the big sellers of gold ( "half truth" technology )
then shorts joined under this cover, then Fed had no
objections because of need to keep US$ strong for a
while and etc...

Can it be that simple, my brother?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:51 - ID#266105)

Bully Beef
(Fri Mar 20 1998 12:55 - ID#259282)
fuel cells: therefore... if the next auto trend ....implies....
copper, lead, silver and now platinum and palladium will be at a premium.Instead of one battery you will have several. Gold is the best conductor. Too expensive. Should look at companies dealing in superconductivity. This will make batteries last longer. When does California's new emmissions control deadline? Ballard shares very expensive . Possible split? Great risk.... Effects on worlds current oil price plunge? Pretty wild repercussions. Any gamblers...1500 on copper, 1500 on silver ,2500 on pal., 2500 on plat. and 2500 on Ballard. Oh sell oil on loss and find a platinum recovery industry. How about that for a portfolio.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:00 - ID#269409)
@ Bully Beef....Gold as conductor
Actually SILVER is a better conductor than Gold, in fact Silver has the best conductivity of any metal. Gold's only advantage as a conductor is that it doesn't oxidize readily, as do Silver and copper, hence Gold's use in plated contacts, high reliability applications in microcircuits etc.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:00 - ID#280245)
Gold/Stocks and the skillful use of terminology...

We have discussed on more than one occasion, gold sales and the complete blank-out of the populace and who is BUYING the gold.

Suppose, that out the close of the NYSE everyday, the announcement was--
569,743,534 Shares SOLD! If the litany was Always emphasizing the selling part of the equation, it would eventually have the desired psychological effect, yes?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:01 - ID#335379)
Hamlet:Turning water to wine, paper into gold, gold into papaer...
Hello hamlet:
Often in the tecknowledgies there is no solution. Hence marketing.
Scientists and alchemists could not turn anything to gold! But
Wall street, Madison Ave. and the government. have all figured out how to turn
gold into paper. They get your trust and then LIE. Thankfully when we see
through the lie we can do what's best. Turn paper into gold while there is time.
Also one who believes a lie must finally admit that he/ she is desiring something offered by that lie, ( incentive trap ) .
At least the wine is useful.

PS off subject:
A communist Russian scientist showed an audience he could turn water to wine.
An attempt to show natural cause for the original miracle of Jesus. After he made
a clear liquid turn red on the stage, an audience participant called out, "very good
commrad, now drink it."

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:04 - ID#246224)
Belgian Gold sale was @ $305.50/oz (average) ..
the spot averaged $293.00 during the same period. A 4.25% premium. That percentage # is interesting because it looks like a "financial" number; something that would be written as a contract 'spot + 4.25%'.

Developed this from plotting Gold/Francs, US$/Francs and Gold/US$. They had a spike up to $313.50/oz in late January.

IMHO it looks like deals are done at higher prices up in the tonne buy/sell stratosphere.

I note that UAE has imported about 990 metric tonnes of gold in the past two years. This is about US$9.5 BILLION worth. Commentary was that there has been stead buying from ME beginning in 1994. What do they anticipate that they are doing all this buying??? UAE is S-M-A-L-L, tiny, a flea dot AND a MASSIVE oil producer for their size. Considering a 200 tonnes per year accumulation per annum for 1994 and 1995 they have cached 1390 TONNES of gold worth US$13.2 BILLION.

Spud Master
(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:04 - ID#273112)
from "Charge of the Boomer Brigade"
Into the valley of Dow they road,
was an investor afraid to buy?
their's was but to invest and die...

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:05 - ID#269409)
@ANOTHER ..... Gold's not at $320??
What happened here? I thought Gold was going to $320-$360 today? Big bump up from some mysterious buyer? Massive short covering?

Ahhh ANOTHER flim flam. Who was it yesterday who postulated that ANOTHER is aching with side splitting laughter at all the adulation and deep lingusitic analysis of his posts? I subscribe to that theory...

Hey ANOTHER, I think you meant to say PLATINUM was going to make a huge move up this week. Them oil shiek's been tradin Platinum for oil lately??? ( Remember, Mercedes Benz's and oil will not flow in the same direction... )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:08 - ID#280245)
Pete--small difficulty here
Is it "l" run {l as in love ) "capital I" run ( I as in insane )
or "1 run" ( 1 as in the number one ) ---
and, I assume it is an email, not an url? Is that correct?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:09 - ID#286279)
Which type napthalene or para-dichlorobenzene?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:11 - ID#410194)
It's difficult to predict the future.

We make fun at those who fail at it and rightly so! It is an educational experience to compare reality to what some people want us to believe will happen.

This gentleman in the following post predicted EXACTLY what will happen. Things started to unfold accordingly hours only after his post went out.


Souldn't we have a weekly little prize of something for these accurate calls?

Date: Tue Mar 17 1998 15:55
LGB ( ANOTHER, Oil Gold ) ID#269409:
AS Reagan would say, There you go again! Posting actual predictive quotes by way of "reality check!" Don't you know that when "ANOTHER's" prediction falls totally flat ( by Friday ) , we're going to hear a whole chorus of how his analysis is right on, and only his timing was off?

Not only that, but be reposting his quote, we're now going to see yet another round of linguistic deconstruction. You know, the meaning of the tense of the verbs, the meaning in the original Greek of ANOTHER's papyrus manuscripts, the meaning when read backwards, the hidden esoterica in the subtle "signals" it all relates to the dual Friday 13th between Eclipses theory...........

Personally, as I mentioned when ANOTHER's post first appeared, I find the link between oil and Gold to be mighty bearish for Gold short term. And now we have the news that oil has now dropped to a 9 year low as of today....

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:14 - ID#269409)
SDRer, Allen..
All this stuff about "sold" vs. "traded" and massive volume, etc. COme now, the US Equities market can move a billion shares in a day. They're trades, buy/sell....the bottom line is which direction does the price of an equity move?

We don't postulate any hidden buyers, secret consortiums, mystery players, and shennanigans being the MAJOR force in the stock market when half a billion shares trade daily. Why do we do so with the much more thinly traded precious metals markets?

Though SDRer, I would agree that there is a negative spin on Gold in the media reporting. Local station biz report always reports DOWN moves in Gold, but never UP moves. And they always do it with that condescending tone of voice like, their words are Gold DOWN $3.00 but their tone says... "Stupid fools who buy this worthless stuff...Gold DOWN again as usual!"

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:18 - ID#269409)
@ Realistic
A major thank you, it's nice to be appreciated once in awhile! But... I must try a little uncharacteristic humility and state for the record that I found RJ's PLatinum call to be a pretty amazing one this week.....

I'd add a "Most valuable post" award to the oscars. And yourself, DA, and RJ would be my first nominee's....

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:19 - ID#57232)
Neophyte: Excellent post on EMU and reserves plans -- by Henry Engler. This raises several questions: Just how much gold will the EURO central need? If we assume 35% of ( external? ) reserves must be gold, stated Belgian external reserves are 1.5 billion EUROs ( according to Henry Engler ) , and total ( external ) reserves are based on relative GDP, then I calculate about 50 tonnes of gold are needed for Belgium, and 1,500 tonnes for the EURO. What I don't know is if this is in addition to internal reserves - eg France and Germay. I think so.

Could someone check my calculations? They were very approximate, and seem too low. If this is correct, one might still expect some gold purchases will be necessary -- perhaps 1,500 tonnes or so.

Also - the article states that approximately $120 billion in US dollars will be superfluous. I would guess the europeans will start selling US dollars fairly soon.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:20 - ID#25784)
A great call was made on the cycle low for April Gold which did in fact come in Wednesday.
Unfortunately I can't now remember the person who made it it was in the last 12 days. By a cycle reader you nailed it. I had argued with you and was off by a day and several dollars which in this molasses movement is seriously wrong. Anyway congratulations. And now when would your next cycle end and where pray tell.

To Scito, is this like Scio I know. Try your hand in the humble Mid Am and make small swing moves scrounge on 40 dollars here and 90 there and it will add up as you assiduously study. From grains of sand mighty antmountains are made very quickly once you get into the swing of it.

To JTF. I would like to see your data on tidal cycles. They probably correlate to the cycles of the moon's nodes in astrology. These, called Caput Draconis and Cauda Draconis and in the East Rahu and Ketu are the timers of moves in all markets. They can be plotted in strict one to one astronomical orbiting correlations against price moves or better yet harmonically factored by mathematical variables to give precise timing. This is being practiced by some financial astrologers now. Such a calculation shows the Jan 12 gold low. It also marked the 1980 high. A nodal cycle is completing for the S&P accompanied by other severe aspects on May 8 to 11 which should be a history making couple of days for S&P.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:22 - ID#410194)
You're right, I also find RJ's prediction on Platinum quite spectacular.

Congratulations to him.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:25 - ID#227108)
Lurking on the sidelines and prompted to respond by the ANOTHER posts.

At flight school in Pensacola, a long time ago, I learned the difference between being lost and navigation that has helped me a lot in and outside of a plane.

"If your eyes go from the map to the earth, you are navigating.
If your eyes go from the earth to the map you are lost."

Investing IMHO is much the same. If my eyes are going from the computer screen showing the last quotes to my market indicators run last night to see how they compare, I am 'lost'. However, if I am looking from my printed chart to the screen to see where the action in the marketplace is playing out in real time, I am navigating.

The key is having a holistic plan that is strong enough to navigate by that is strong enough to produce a 'decision of high quality'.

It is amazing to me that someone without identifying themselves other than by their writing style can take many individual's attention off of their own plans. I don't know enough about astrology and its relation to the markets to offer an opinion on the subject, but I do respect Mike S. using astrology/market timing and others with different approaches for their postings that show a planned, systematic approach, to the market that is not subject to posts by ANOTHER or anyone else for that matter

Also, if the market had gone up to $320-$360, there is little to suggest that ANOTHER had anything to do with it.

I enjoy this forum a lot and wish everyone well

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:26 - ID#269409)
@ SIlver..what's the sound?
Did I just hear silver break the $6.00 upside barrier? Or was that a sonic boom?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:26 - ID#57232)
Gold totally flat? Perhaps not!
LGB, Realistic: Have a look at Allen ( USA ) 's posts. You are both right that COMEX gold prices are flat, but how do you explain Allen's posts that the Belgian sales were not at comex SPOT , but above it!

LGB -- I commend you for predicting that the price of gold will be flat, but I think we should also commend Allen ( USA ) for finding evidence that the 'black market' price of gold may already be rising! The same thing must have happened in the 70's at some point when the CB sponsored gold selling cartel collapsed. Hopefully we have some historians who can tell us.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:28 - ID#238295)
Oil stocks have done very well these past few years even as the price of oil plunged to 9 year lows. But gold stocks have collapsed along with the price of bullion.

Why the huge difference? Much of it undoubtedly reflects the accurate perception that oil is a vital commodity whose price can only rise longer-term whatever the present problems. Very different from the consensus expectation about gold.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:28 - ID#286279)
octane booster
Found this with Dejanews. You might want to read it before popping moth balls in with your petrol.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:30 - ID#266105)
@alchemy et al

So's this Indian dude makes his way to China somehow
and sits staring at the wall of a cave for nine years ( now
a shrine maybe, this centuries ago ) before hitting on the
idea of zen. Quick student, good teacher.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:33 - ID#342282)
JTF re your's 12:29
Thanx. Check your mail. Working on a reply to you. Looks like blue skies right now. Tornado warning lifted

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:38 - ID#280245)
Fund managers prepare chutes for EMU leap into unknown

No one doubts that the launch of a single European currency next January poses challenges and opportunities for investors, but analysts remain divided as to whether the risks or the rewards will predominate.

Risks tend to stand out in the short run, although opportunities might gain the upper hand later. With no way to know for sure, though, European monetary union ( EMU ) represents nothing less than a leap of faith.

"EMU is a giant step into the unknown. It's like jumping from the Empire State Building and trying to invent the parachute on the way down," Dean Buckley, HSBC Asset Management's chief investment officer for British and European equities, told an investment seminar last week.

In contrast, he says, European equity markets could see increased volatility as "matching rules", which require the currency of most pension-fund assets to match the currency of pension-fund liabilities, expand automatically with the introduction of the euro. In a rush to diversify across countries participating in EMU, institutional investors could rock the equity markets - generating trading opportunities, AND LOTS OF EXCITEMENT, IN THEIR WAKE.

COMMENT: One can not help but wonder how many pensioners
welcome--let alone WANT--lots of excitement in their investments! {:- )
This is an interesting article, nonetheless.

LGB@Witty.As.Always That was more or less my point. We live in a world
where everything is "spun" to work an issue. 'Bout time we started our
own School of Spin...are you available for a top Spokesperson Post?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:38 - ID#57232)
Map and earth
pax: I like your analogies. I agree with you 100% -- we must come up with our own models, and not be distracted from using them -- or we are 'lost'. Your approach to 'ANOTHER''s posts is appropriate -- we should not take anyones words as gospel until confirmed with other data. In the past I took newletter comments by the Aden Sisters, and even John Dessauer as gospel, because I figured they knew more than I did. Lost about $10k doing that. Know better now.

But --the mysterious posts by ANOTHER do have some value -- such as the fact that Allen ( USA ) was alerted to a two - tier gold pricing system that is probably getting more out of kilter every day.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:40 - ID#251268)
good research in the mothballs,I put 2to3 per gallon in myv8
and got about 15% better gas milage and didn't notice any bad effects
this was a 1967 dodge with 318 so I don't know I would experiment with a car I didn't care to much about though that t-bird is too
nice to gamble with.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:42 - ID#269245)
I think I have become addicted to gold. It is becoming an emotional thing for me. I just do not value paper any more. I fear that if I do not convert completely to PM's, my savings will turn into nothing. Others on this forum must have suffered from the same delusion. Please offer some advice about how I may restore my faith in US$! I find myself pushing the physical on everyone I meet. Please help!

Gold User/Abuser ( c )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:46 - ID#269409)
Cash is "dangerous"?
Friday March 20, 1:21 pm Eastern Time

Few threats in sight to stock market bull run

By David Holmes

LONDON, March 20 ( Reuters ) - Another record-breaking run by stock markets in Europe and the U.S. this week has rekindled debate
about whether further gains are on the cards -- or if the time is right to take profits.

For now, there seems little threat to the bullish combination of low interest rates, steady growth and strong flows of cash into
investment funds that has proved such a positive backdrop in recent weeks.

Yet analysts remain wary that an unexpected change in the global investment climate could eventually trigger a retreat from currently
high levels.

Stock markets look expensive in terms of many of their traditional valuation measures, such as their multiple of profits over share

Britain's FTSE 100 for instance is valued at more than 20 times this year's expected profits, compared with a historic average closer to

In that sort of scenario, markets need a continuing flow of positive news to make further progress.

``Markets do look very toppy but I think there's scope for them go further,'' said Trevor Laugharne, investment strategist at American
Express Bank in London.

``Ratings are getting very stretched, but if we think of markets being determined not just by valuations but also by liquidity and
sentiment, then there's certainly plenty of liquidity around and sentiment seems quite positive,'' Laugharne said.

Analyst Arno Barens of Dutch bank Van Lanschot also said further gains seemed possible. ``Of course, price/earnings ratios are very
high from an historical point of view. But apparently people are willing to pay, notably due to the low interest rates.''

Laugharne said markets, particularly in the UK and U.S., were looking increasingly risky.

``At some stage sentiment will turn...these liquidity-driven markets are very risky for our clients. The old phrase 'sell in May and go
away' springs to mind.''

Friday's record session saw the FTSE 100 jump as much as 107.9 points to an intraday record of 6,105.8, while France's CAC 40 hit a
peak of 3,717.32 and Germany's DAX scored a record 5,014.90. The Dow on Thursday set a record closing high of 8,803.05.

Dealers said the indices were distorted by extreme volatility because of the quarterly futures and options expiry, at a time when traders
and investors have to take fresh investment decisions for the coming quarter.

They said underlying conditions remained encouraging.

The continuing turmoil in Asian markets, which caused markets to tumble last October on the back of a series of huge currency
devaluations in the fast-growing ``tiger'' economies is a key factor in the recent rallies.

Initial concern that the Asian crisis could weaken investment sentiment elsewhere has been replaced with a more positive view that
recognises its calming influence on global inflation pressures.

Trevor Greetham, global equity strategist at Merrill Lynch, said reduced Asian demand for oil and other commodities had eased price
pressures around the globe, providing a positive backdrop for western markets.

``Commodity prices are falling, oil prices are falling, that's good for ( company ) earnings,'' Greetham said in an interview on Reuters
Financial Television. ``At the same time they don't need any capital, so real yields which should really be rising are falling.

``This is all very good news for financial assets,'' Greetham said. ``It may be a bubble, but as long as the Japanese economy is weak I
think it's going to continue.''

One of the factors that could spoil the party is the danger that the U.S. economy will show signs of strength, reviving fears about rising
interest rates in the world's biggest economy.

Another risk is a recovery in Asia that could produce a turnaround in commodity demand and remove the downward pressure on

``If Japan recovers, if they do the right thing with the fiscal package coming this spring and there's a big recovery in economic
activity...then real yields will rise and it's a good time to be in cash,'' Greetham said.

"Right now, cash is dangerous

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:48 - ID#280245)
2BR02B? (@alchemy et al)
Fascinating--an apparently unaccountable--meeting of minds isn't it!
Some bright young thing will have the makings for an interesting thesis...unless there is already a book out there? Which I--for one--
would very much like to read.

Gusto Oro
(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:49 - ID#377235)
Clone, you need to start attending your local chapter meetings of Alchemists Anonymous immediately.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:54 - ID#411259)
..... LGB - All - JD .....


Thank you for finally saying what should be obvious to most here, but seems to evade. When I read things like, "Well, if Belgium sold their gold, someone bought it, isn't that bullish?". Then, all sorts of gleeful peering under imagined layers to find the shenanigans they just know must be there, my frustration rises like bile. Your contributions to this forum have gone a long way to reminding folks hereabouts that what is.. is, and not what they wish it to be. In a forum filled with prodigies; egos; brilliant analysis; and misguided dunderheads; yours is among the saner voices and we are all the better for it. I think we have both discovered, through our more pugilistic days, that we share many of the same views. Perhaps that is why we clashed so soon. Like minded people tend to see in the other those traits we like less about ourselves. Anyway, keep it up.

All -

I am gladdened to see the discussion today about fuel cells. This is the same technology that powered the Apollo missions to the moon and powers the Space Shuttle today. The problem with the whole fuel cell thingie was its enormous expense. Mercedes made their first fuel cell car 2/12 years ago, and GM followed suit several months later. THE FUEL CELL IS THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION!. I rarely shout on this forum, but I wanted to be heard on this. Could anybody here, twenty years ago, imagine owning your own laser? Hell, I own half a dozen of them now: CD ROMs, CD audio, I even have one of those laser pointers in my briefcase that cost about $20. That's $20 for a laser, the size of a fountain pen. Seems humdrum now, but humans adapt quickly. In twenty years, we will all own fuel cells, count on it.

JD -

The numbers you posted represented vertical foot depth. I am speaking of the network of tunnels required to reach those depths, upwards of 5 miles, and the enormous cost of moving and cooling heavy machinery through these labyrinths. I do not know which mines have tunneled under the ocean, it is a piece of info I picked up a couple years ago. I will research and let you know.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:57 - ID#289271)
To Aura
Hey thanks for the encouragement. That's exactly what I've been thinking
I should do. I did not have bring much to the table to begin with as I am just getting started so the losses have been a disappointment. Someone stated that if I thought I was going to gain it all back overnight that I was mistaken. I don't expect to gain it all back overnight but I will gain it all back and more. I started out trading technical and was doing well but when I began to lose I wanted to understand why so I began looking at the fundamental info and now I am torn in trying to evaluate both. What to do?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 13:58 - ID#342282)
Pax re eyes map to earth
You got it. I was in San Angelo in '52, AF. You guys used to scream in from Corpus Christi with the Mcdonnel banshees and ruin the shack. It sounds like you have a good perspective. Like to hear from Thanx

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:01 - ID#410194)
Silver breakout!
Silver zoomed to he upside 10 minutes ago and this breakout has turned the ugly looking chart into a positive picture.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:01 - ID#25171)
Bashing ANOTHER with a touch of humor and sarcasm is the easy path contrarily to what it seems.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:08 - ID#266105)
@Quality is Job:1

"For convenience, history is often viewed as a conflict between the instinct for order
and the impulse toward chaos. Both are necessary: both are manifestations of the need
to survive. Without order, nothing exists: without chaos, nothing grows. And yet the
struggle between them sheds more blood that any other war." ( The Gap into Vision
Forbidden Knowledge, Stephen R. Donaldson 1947 Bantam Doubleday Dell
1991. )

"See how the force of the idea is made static by "explaining it". Explanation isolates it
and makes it a target instead of an influence. If I can contribute anything, it is the
recognition of the working of this subtle, simple law: that which is unexpressed is
dynamic, active." ( The Bell Notes -A Journey from Physics to Metaphysics - Arthur M
Young 1979 as quoted in the Millenium Whole Earth Catalog )


Sharefin-- I wonder if that Stephen Donaldson is the same
as that dandy posted the other day, printed out, hardcopied,
3-hole-punched and notebooked for enjoyment now & again.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:14 - ID#213265)
@the scene
This move in silver really makes 6.60 a very healthy possibility into/through Tuesday.
I think that until the June contract on gold visits 285, it won't be seeing anything much to the upside. I also think that if it doesn't get it done fairly quickly, possibility of seeing even lower numbers become larger.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:14 - ID#317193)
I think the "bashing" goes to those that believe the words of someone they do not know, but apparantly trust, without doing their own investigation to confirm the facts. Another's comments cannot be confirmed. How people can "trust" someone they do not know is beyond me.I do,however, concur in buying physical-boy is that a leap of faith! Gold at historic lows given a $US adjusted for current purchasing power. Sorry, I'd love to see old @$30,00.00 but don't bet your hard earned money on this senario. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:17 - ID#20748)
65 days to impeachment?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:20 - ID#213265)
@the scene
TYoung -- The day you see gold valued at 30,000 dollars/oz is the same day it'll cost you 30,000 dollars for a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:23 - ID#286279)
I'll guess you're using napthalene. Either way, you may want to consider hoarding a barrel of the stuff in case it goes out of favor again or gets outright banned. Para-dichlorobenzene is already banned for use in public places but you can still use it at home. Go figure. I got a 55 gallon drum from Van Waters & Rogers agricultural chemical division if I remember right. ;- )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:29 - ID#270236)
Mr. John Disney
Greatly enjoyed your excellent piece on Rangy. Although I already
had a position in Drooy, I was unaware of the investment merits of
Rangy. I have now taken a position in Rangy as well. Thanks for
the information.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:30 - ID#36156)
I don't get it. Why do we insist on reading into ANOTHER's now-infamous post?

Nowhere did he state that the price of gold would rise to $320-$360 in
five to ten days. In the last two weeks, more than one Kitcoite has
made public note of this and STILL the man/woman/it gets repeatedly
raked through the coals.

Are we so desperate for a rally that we've lost our ability to read or are we so engrossed in our own selfish little wants and desires that it justifies victimizing good intentions?


(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:35 - ID#238295)
gold stocks
Gold stocks not acting well of late. Drifting down on average volume. Lends support to Eldorado's forecast of another move below $290 in the near future.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:37 - ID#246224)
(The morning after Y2K) "Was it good for you?"
These sectors must ALL be successful in Y2K remediation or else nothing
else will work: POWER, TELECOMMUNICATIONS and BANKING. Within each of these sectors three areas of remediation must ALL be perfectly corrected;
HARDWARE ( embedded chips ) , SOFTWARE ( lines of programming code ) and host to host CONNECTIVITY. Each of these areas has three basic requirements for success; PEOPLE, MONEY and TIME.

The problem is LARGE. In saying that it is LARGE let's look at how this is so. On the surface it looks like there are 9 things that need to be
addressed. So it wouldn't seem that big a problem. But let's look deeper.

Power AND Telecom AND Banking must all be functional to support our core
day to day life. There are actually 8 possible combinations of these three sectors, only one of which is "successful" as a solution ( ALL must work ) . A table is helpful here:

0 X X
0 X X
1 0 X
1 0 X
1 1 0

Can you see the problem here? They ALL must work or none of it will work.
If there were only ONE point of failure in each of these sectors then there would be a 1 in 8 chance of success.

For these sectors there are three main areas which must be remediated for
EACH sector: Hardware, Software and Connectivity between systems. Similarly to the first table there would be a table for EACH sector which limits the possibilities for success to 1 in 8 chance. The combined chance for success in all 3 areas under each sector resulting in a 1 in 512 chance that EVERYTHING will work. This assumes there is only one point of failure for each hardware, software and connectivity area in each sector.

We have gone from a very simplistic view of 3 sectors with a 1 in 8 chance of success to a bit deeper view with a 1 in 512 chance of success. But there is another, further level which must be considered: logistics -
people, money and time. Unfortunately the chances for success recede even
more from our view; in the case where only one point of failure is
accounted for in terms of having enough people, money or time then there is 1 chance in 4096 of success.

Let's be graphic here. The consequences would be a shut down of life as we know it. This is worst case, but if you are seriously trying to gauge the problem this is what needs to be addressed. Without power,
telecommunications or banking sooner or later there would be no food
delivery, no water in urban or suburban areas, no idea of what is going on or where. In a word, 'anarchy'.

If I offered to play Russian Roulette with you would you be interested? 5
chances in 6 you would be OK. Most people would recoil at the thought. This problem is just as severe yet worse. It is Russian roulette turned on its head.

The traditional 'game' is played with a revolver pistol, usually with a
cylinder with places for 6 bullets. One bullet is placed in one of the six receiving holes, the other 5 holes are empty. The cylinder is reset and spun thoroughly. You know the rest. A one in six chance of being shot dead. Our problem is that there are 4096 holes; 4095 bullets are inserted and only ONE EMPTY place remains. I suppose it really doesn't matter if you spin the cylinder at that point does it?

I created a chart which is 46 and 2/3rds FEET long to map each of these
combinations. Each line is 1/8th of an inch tall. There are 4095 possible
combinations which would result in the failure of these core services in
any one particular location on the century rollover.

This is our check list. Go to your power utility, to your local and long
distance telephone providers and to all the banks you deal with directly or indirectly and ask for proof of Y2K remediation compliance in each of the appropriate areas. Until you have put "OK" across ALL 27 necessary boxes you can have no confidence in "things working out".

It must be mentioned that the above analysis assumes that there is an equal chance of failure or success in any of the 27 different possible items of concern. This may be either optimistic or pessimistic in your point of view. Considering that only about 25% of software project come in on time and budget ( not considering that those that do tend to only have 40% of the required features implemented ) and maybe that is just a bit on the optimistic side.

Even if we consider a 99% chance of success in each of these areas. That is to say these remarkable efforts will on average be 99% successful in their efforts we are still playing Russian Roulette with a gun that has 40 bullets loaded and 1 empty place. Want to play???

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:38 - ID#25171)
More sarcasm!

It is admited to share somebody's point of view even without research

More seriously, how do you think over indebted OECD countries will repay government debt and pensions owed to social programs contributors if not by printing enough money to see Gold at$ 30 000

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:46 - ID#342282)
Polarbear re my last post to you
Weather has cleared, but not brain. After consideration, it may be better to email. Mine's At your convenience

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:47 - ID#317193)
Sequin-lighten up!
I do not intend any sarcasm-trust is something that is earned. Another can not earn my trust because I do not know the person. Don't take offense, it's my nature. Another might be 100% right. Talk to me next year. However my investment decisions will not be made based on the words of someone I know not. I can make enough of my own mistakes on my own- I do not need any help in this regard. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:50 - ID#258129)
@JTF, 13:19 (EMU)
It is known, that external reserves of ECB will be EURO 50 B, or about US$ 55 B. If we shall take 15% gold backing ( if you are interested, why 15%, take a look at Mar 18 1998 17:15 message ) , that means $8,25B of Gold. It is also known, that gold will be booked by ECB at market price, not current book price of CBs - participants. I do not want to go into discussion, what the price will be on Jan 1, 1999. Lets take it close to current, for simplicity, $300.00 per oz.
8,250,000,000 / 300 = 27500000 oz or about 855 ton. Thats for whole ECB. Not so much, as you can see. There is enough Gold in old Europe. Only Dutch reserve now is 1052 ton. So, there will be no Gold purchase by European CBs even in more then unlikely situation of 100% gold backing. I do not think, that all European CBs will begin sale Gold now - it is finally still an experiment and some conservatism is required here. But it may drive Gold bear for couple of years more. IMHO

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:50 - ID#266105)
of possible interest

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:51 - ID#25171)
No offense taken of course.
The "more sarcasm" was just humoristic

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:51 - ID#280245)
Original source background...good-value as a jump off point for EM info
The scenario for the changeover to the single currency.

The Madrid European Council in December 1995 laid down the timetable and scenario for the changeover to the single currency according to the principal of a gradual switchover following the creation of a "critical mass" of activities in the euro as of 1 January 1999. It comprises of three steps.

1. The launch of Economic and Monetary Union.
2. Effective start-up of the third stage of Economic and Monetary Union.
3. Generalisation of the euro.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:52 - ID#222231)
RJ - re: your 13:54, LGB
RJ and LGB, you are both correct in a funny sort of way. I always thought there were two sides to every coin. What you may consider insanity by dunderheads, others find as logic. Come on guys, have you ever made a bad call or had a weird thought? RJ , your call on platinum was brilliant and you should be commended for it ( did your prognosis of the use of platinum in Ballard Cells influence your call ) ? I find it distasteful though to berate ANOTHER. Would either of you comment on why the Belgian sale warrented a premium over the spot of almost 5% as Allen iterated? I would think on such a large order a discount ( albeit small ) would be in order rather than a premium.IMHO.

RJ, as much as it pains me ( just joking ) , you are unequivacably?, absolutely, farsighted, prophetic and correct in your estimation for the future regarding fuel cells. I, among others, would like to know your opinion for the investment potential for these fuel cells and companies and PMs ( other than platinum ) that would qualify for gains in the short and long run? Thank you.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:54 - ID#317193)
Sequin- P.S.
I do not expect government debt to ever be repaid. I expect a derivatives crisis within the next year that will make S.E. Asia look like a picnic. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 14:57 - ID#368244)
Another and Friends

I don't invest on the thinking of { Another}, I do it because I believe in myself. If I am wrong, I pay the price. Another might believe everything

he said. One thing for sure, he can spin one good tale.

Gold is one sick puppy!!!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:00 - ID#25171)
Chancelllor's KOHL grand-mother
What saved Chancellor's KOHL familly in the 1923 debacle , was the fact that his grand mother was the happy holder of a few Gold coins which enabled them to live decently through those times of hardship.

Thus , the reason why some European CBs won't sell GOLD is far from purely financial.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:05 - ID#224149)
Hero of the week --Then What ?
Heroes and villains ---To be right 51% of the time in the markets is a goal many wish they could accomplish but to put certain posters on a pedestal for a few good calls is like praising the Golden calf. ----Away to find the geniuses in a box.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:09 - ID#252127)
Another and Sour Grapes

I happen to feel that that some here cannot stand that Another's is taking away some of their thunder.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:12 - ID#222231)
sam, All - Silver at $6.195/oz. Now, go gold.
Sam, thank you for mothball info. I do'nt think I'll be putting them into t-bird.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:17 - ID#57236)
Delphi: Thanks for responding. The question of how much gold the EURO will need is probably a key question in determining just how much the price of gold will rise over the next 12 months. If local sources of gold are suffient ( without gold sales by Germany and France ) , it is likely that the price of gold will not rise appreciably because of the EURO launch.

I must say I find the 'external and internal' currency reserves bit confusing. Am I right that this is only temporary - until there is one true european currency -- the EURO? I would guess that at the time of offical launch, the EURO will be more like a basket currency. Also -- I would guess that when there is truly 'one' currency, reserve requirements for the same currency 'buffering' effect will be less.

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:19 - ID#24135)
Praise Misdirected
for DEJ
Thank you for your kind words on the RANGY writeup.
However, they are misdirected. Polarbear wrote EVERY
WORD of the rangy Section. I only did a bit on Harmony
and Durban Deep.
To all and Delphi
I seem to be unable to get any kind of response from
any kind soul out there on the following. After the
euro is in place in the big time european central
bank, will individual european nations still hold
their OWN reserves to protect their own citizens in
times of distress or will they not. I would see the
BTCB ( big time CB ) holding reserves to protect the
EURO, but who holds reserves to protect FRANCE or
GERMANY or Italy ( not the currency .. the country ) ...
They just turn over to big daddy and pray for the best??
Is this a dumb@ss question?? and why??
for RJ
I understand better now. But RSA GOLD mines are much
deeper than their Platinum mines. In any event, I dont
think it is really valid to compare RSA and Russian PGM mining.
Russia mines PALLADIUM with a platinum byproduct. RSA mines
platinum ( and rhodium ) with a palladium by product.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:23 - ID#280215)
Silverbaron - A word please!
Due to another exciting ( snoozing ) day for gold, I'd like to ask a question of you. Today, I had lunch with some college buds who are brokers and they were discussing Elliott wave predictions for the DOW. I remember it was you who said yesterday that you were an EWT subscriber. Prechter's name came up in the discussions as well as Don Wolanchuk ( SP? ) and a few others. In an effort to get involved in their discussion again possibly tommorrow, I want to make sure I have all of my facts before I decide to enter their discussion.

One of the guys said that Don Wolanchuk says that this current move is a wave B up with a soon to come wave C back down to 6000 ish. Then a massive move to new highs in the 10-15000 range. Since I am not an EWT subscriber, but I do look at his bulletin board once in a while, I get the impression that Prechter always thinks that the latest wave up is the last and then CRASH and BURN. What is his view of this latest up move ? Does he agree or disagree with the Wolanchuk synopsis? Thanks in advance for any assistance you can give!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:25 - ID#224149)
Can pigs fly ?
Mike Sheller As North America approaches the summer months and gas prices hopefully remain low many Americans will hit the road and hopefully eat big breakfasts of ham, bacon and eggs since you are the pork man ( grin thingy ) what is your take on pork bellies? I think more money can be made in this play than in any previous year. Away to wait for my Kitco shipment.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:30 - ID#269245)
RJ, LGB, HenryD, All
RJ, LGB - I am not writing this to defend Another. I am writing this to encourage both of you to go back an reread Another's prediction with an objective eye, not a vindictive one. Then come back to this forum and challenge the following statement: Another never predicted that the POG would rise to $320 in 5 to 10 Days. As for the "post of the week" - give me a break! Try the "most innacurate translation of a post all week" - I'll give you that! - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:32 - ID#57236)
Internal and External gold reserves and EURO - how much a mystery!
SDRer, Delphi, All: Input please! The EURO gold reserves, whatever percentage they will be are external -- am I right? Any european country that wants to maintain the stability of their currency will still need internal reserves to support their own currency. So, any fiscally conservative country like Germany will have internal gold reserves, as well as external reserves. We have been told Germany will not sell their gold.

All I have heard is the message that Germany and France will control the purchases and sales of gold for the support of the EURO external reserves ( I think ) -- not internal reserves. So --- why did so many countries sell their gold, if the reason was that France and Germany would manage the ( external ) gold reserves? Aren't we missing something here?

Either we are not being told the entire truth about why certain EURO countries are selling gold, or France and Germany will have control over internal and ( underline and ) external reserves.

The key question here is not how much gold the EURO is expected to have, but how much the member countries of the EURO must have when internal and external gold reserves are included. Then all we need to do is compare that amount to what the EURO countries already have. Then we can determine whether they need to buy or can sell gold. Why do I feel like I need David Copperfield or Houdini to figure this out?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:37 - ID#334219)
RSA Platinum Mines
SA Platinums mines are not as deep as their gold mines. But mining starts at some 700 meters below surface. Mineralization goes as deep as 1500 meters below surface. These reefs are dipping at 20% angle and you need to travel more between 2 and 3.5 kilometers before you reach current workings. The grade is between 6g/t and 7.5g/t of which platinum is roughly 55%, the remaining 45% are palladium, rhodium and gold. To those interested in Platinum Stocks, I would suggest Delta Gold ( DGD:asx ) which is in Zimbabwe with BHP. They have the second largest platinum resources in the world ( after Amplats ) , but the reserves are much closer to surface ( between 50m and 500m ) . Costs at Delta are and will be much lower for the next 20-50 years. Delta has in excess of 100M ounces platinum in resources with several millions already in the proven category.

Bully Beef
(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:37 - ID#259282)
Two Ballard related stories in the Ottawa Cit. today
1-Ballard CEO says he doesn't know why stocks have gone up in his co.47% in the last 3 months. The paper points owt the co. has few assets and has virtually no earnings and won't for three years.
2-Ballard recently sold generation units to G.M. for testing. Shares are 195 dollars CDN. Ouch.Thats too much money for me. Ahh...I own 1 share of Ballard power. they don't have assets or earnings. Ahhh...neither did Bill Gates.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:38 - ID#280245)
Allen(USA) (Belgian Gold sale was @ $305.50/oz (average)
Nicely done Allen! With regards to UAE gold purchases--
a number of our threads appear to meet here, not the least of
which is the Islamic mints requirement for gold...

How much "raw material" would be necessary to create sufficient
coin to put one ( 1 ) gold dinar into every middle-class Muslim's
hand? We would be discussing very large numbers for a very
modest goal, would we not? {:- )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:41 - ID#246224)
If cash is 'dangerous' then I'm advocating
being explosive! Go gold! and silver! Nice pop at week end. Looks like someone wants to be early for next week's party?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:44 - ID#25171)
John Disney from kind soul
After the official investiture of the European Central Bank, the remaining reserves ( currencies and Gold ) will stay with the regional CBs ( ie BUBA, Bank of FRANCE etc.. )

However, and that's where it gets tricky, the ECB will have the power at any time to call these reserves ( see currency turmoil ) .

Of course , this fact is little known ( what would the Germans and french people say if they knew that all their gold reserves are transfered to a non entity headed by technocrats , not democrats, famous for wasting hard earned taxpayer's money )

The reserves staying with regional CBs will be managed jointly by the ECB and the local CBs ( another scam )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:46 - ID#238295)
Straddler: Wollenchuk's stock market outlook sounds very similar to Armstrong's.

BTW, what is Wallenchuk saying these days about gold and silver?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:48 - ID#286279)
Right, I was just being sarcastic, wistful about things we can't get anymore. My business partner just overnight shipped across country a half dozen just-laid real chicken eggs. Deep golden yolks that stand up. Wow! I remember that taste from 30 years ago? A few weeks before she shipped me a huge tender home grown chicken. The wonderful taste of that chicken amazed my dinner guests. Think I'll go buy some more coins.

Bully Beef
(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:48 - ID#259282)
Would it be fair to guess that Belgium had a surplus of gold and
five other Europe nations needed enough ( the proper percentage ) to contribute their share for entry into the Union currency. I mean , if I had an investment club ,wouldn't I insist that you made a contribution into the pot , reflecting your relative size in population , combined with per capita wealth. Maybe it's more like the ante in a poker game. If so this would be bullish for gold.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:52 - ID#330175)
GOLD SOARS(up a we have 'ANOTHER' ho-hum day---
for the DOW~~~~~~~

Spud Master
(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:52 - ID#273112)
Dow up 93 points....
Reminds me of an old Beatles song,loony John Lenon singing:

"Sitting on the corner ... waiting for the Bomb to fall."

Just how much money is there sloshing around the world to keep inflating the Dow?

Infinity? I think not.

Spud, waiting for the Bomb.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 15:57 - ID#224149)
What a DEAL !!!!
Good Deal Barts coin deal seems to good to be true but then where can you get a $310.00 Guarantee till the year 2000 with no downside risk and all the upside potential. Imagine when Gold was $400.00 years ago if this type of guarantee was made available their would be more happy Gold investors today. A plug for Bart.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:01 - ID#280245)
JTF--Here is a very good benchmark, by which you may judge

all the "factual" articles you read regarding EU. Within this site is all that they have planned to do, all that they plan to do, and how they plan to do it. It gives one--as mentioned--a benchmark. This is at least the official statement of policy.

As an added +, you may brush up on any other of your languages by compelling yourself to read in that language, smug in the knowledge you may immediately flip back to English! {:- )

I find it a useful site. Hope you do too.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:02 - ID#246224)
SDRer @ the Islamic Bank
I remember the proposed capitalization at about US$225 BILLION with approximately 5% in coinage. At today's prices ( that is US$11.25 Bln ) 1200 tonnes of gold. The coin was a 22 Kt alloy at 10.4 grams ( ? ) which works out to 9.5 gr gold per coin; total mint run of 126.3 Mln coins. This is an order of magnitude less than needed to put one coin into the hand of each muslim world wide ( approx 1 Bln ) . But most of the muslim people are in a very low income catagory and may look at this differently. Each coin might represent an entire year's savings. Silver would be the coinage of choice for savings of a more modest variety.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:03 - ID#330175)
This is NOT a JOKE
How ya doin buddy


1. Weed
2. Vancouver: 1.5 million people and two bridges
3. The local hero is a pot-smoking snowboarder
4. The local wine doesn't taste like malt vinegar
5. Your $400,000 Vancouver home is 5 hours from downtown
6. A university with a nude beach
7. You can throw a rock and hit three Starbucks locations
8. If a cop pulls you over, just offer them some of your hash
9. There's always some sort of deforestation protest going on
10. Cannabis


1. Big Rock
2. Preston Manning
3. Tax is 7 percent instead of approx. 200 percent
4. The Premier is a fat, wife-beating alcoholic with a grade 4
5. Flames vs. Oilers
6. Stamps vs. Eskies
7. You can exploit almost any natural resource you can think of
8. Eventually, it will be your town's turn to ban VLT's
9. The Americans below you are all in anti-government militia
10. You can attempt to murder your rich oil tycoon husband and get
away with it

1. You never run out of wheat
2. Those cool Saskatewan Wheat Pool hats
3. Cruise control takes on a whole new meaning
4. Your province is really easy to draw
5. You never have to worry about roll-back if you have a standard
6. It takes you two weeks to walk to your neighbor's house
7. YOUR Roughriders survived
8. You can watch the dog run away from home for hours
9. People will assume you live on a farm
10. Buying a huge John Deere mower makes sense


1. You wake up one morning to find you suddenly have beachfront
2. Amusing town names like "Flin Flon" and "Winnipeg"
3. All your local bands make it big and move to Toronto
4. The only province to ever violently rebel against the federal
5. Hundreds of huge, horribly frigid lakes
6. Nothing compares to a wicked Winnipeg winter
7. You don't need a car, just take the canoe to work
8. You can be an Easterner or a Westerner depending on your mood
9. Because of your license plate, you are still "friendly" even
when you cut someone off
10. Pass the time watching trucks and barns float by


1. You live in the center of the universe
2. Your $400,000 Toronto home is actually a dump
3. You and you alone decide who will win the federal election
4. There's no such thing as an Ontario Seperatist
5. Your grandparents sold booze to the States during Prohibition
6. Lots of tourists come to Toronto because they mistakenly
believe it's a cool city
7. The only province with hard-core American-style crime
8. MuchMusic's Speaker's Corner - rant and rave on national TV
for a dollar
9. Baseball fans park on your front lawn and pee on the side of
your house
10. Mike Harris: basically a sober Ralph Klein


1. Everybody assumes you're an asshole
2. Racism is socially acceptable
3. The only province to ever kidnap federal politicians
4. You can take bets with your friends on which English neighbor
will move out next
5. Other provinces basically bribe you to stay in Canada
6. The FLQ
7. Your hockey team is made up entirely of dirty French guys
8. The province with the oldest, nastiest hookers
9. NON-smokers are the outcasts
10. You can blame all your problems on the "Anglo bastards"


1. You are sandwiched between French assholes and drunken celtic
2. One way or another, the government gets 98 percent of your
3. You're poor, but not as poor as the Newfies
4. When listing the provinces, everyone forgets to mention yours
5. The economy is based on fish, cows, and ferrying Ontario
motorists to Boston
6. No one ever blames anything on New Brunswick
7. You have French people, but they don't want to kill you
8. Everybody has a Grandfather who runs a lighthouse
9. Just as charming as Maine, but with more unemployed fishermen
10. You probably live in a small seaside cottage with no


1. The only place in North America to get bombed in the war ...
by a moron who set a munitions ship on fire
2. Your province is shaped like male genitalia
3. Everyone is a fiddle player
4. If someone asks if you're a Newfie, you are allowed to kick
their ass
5. The local hero is an insane, fiddle playing, sexual pervert
6. The province that produced Rita MacNeil, the world's largest
land mammal
7. You are the reason Anne Murray makes money
8. You can pretend you have Scottish heritage as an excuse to
wear a kilt
9. The economy is based on fish, lobster, and fiddle music
10. Even though it smells like dead sea animals, Halifax is
considered Canada's most beautiful city


1. Even though more people live on Vancouver Island, you still
got the big-ass bridge
2. You can walk across the province in half an hour
3. You were probably once an extra on "Road to Avonlea"
4. This is where all those tiny red potatoes come from
5. The economy is based on fish, potatoes, and CBC TV shows
6. Tourists arrive, see the "Anne of Green Gables" house, then
promptly leave
7. You can drive across the the province in two minutes
8. It doesn't matter to you if Quebec separates
9. You don't share a border with the Americans, or with anyone
for that matter
10. You can confuse ships by turning your porch lights on and off
at night

1. The poorest, stupidest, drunkest province in Confederation
2. If Quebec Seperates, you will float off to sea
3. In the rare case when someone moves to the Rock, you can make
them kiss a dead cod
4. The economy is based on fish, seafood, and fish-related
5. If you do something stupid, you have a built-in excuse
6. You understand the meaning of Great Big Sea's lyrics
7. The work day is about two hours long
8. You are credited with many great inventions, like the
solar-powered flashlight and the screen door for submarines
9. If someone asks if you're from Nova Scotia, you are allowed to
kick their ass
10. It is socially acceptable to wear your hip waders on your
wedding day

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:07 - ID#258129)
JTF, John Disney__A: EURO
Thanks for answering.
John Disney__A: The answer to Your question is yes - national CBs will still hold their own reserves, including Gold reserves, "protect their own citizens", as You spell it out. The size and structure of these reserves are up to every national CB to define. The only one thing here is that after Jan 1, 1999 every national CB supposed to get an approval of ECB for "large" transactions. What exactly means large is unknown to me.
JTF: Each member of EMU is still independent state, that took a decision to participate in EMU. Theoretically, it can cancel participation or be expelled by others in case of wring doing - I am not sure about exact procedures, but can find them. What is also very important with this dual backing thing, at least for now, is that till 2002 EURO will be used only for business-to-business transactions, government budget and stock exchange. Citizens will continue to receive their salaries in local currencies till 2002, that still have to be backed, I suppose.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:07 - ID#269245)
Alberich the Dwarf
Hello again. I was wondering if you can see, from your mountain, where the winding path begins that leads to the answers I seek. Who contols the "third level," all those commercial banks. Also, any light you could shed on Alan Greenspan's dark side would be much appreciated. Why did he sell out? - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:11 - ID#224149)
from sea to sea
Ted -- And you want to leave Canada ?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:11 - ID#280245)
Allen(USA)--W O are a Wonder!
PS--I did say "middle-class Muslim's" {:- ) )

Also want to thank you for the great Y2K article today.
Actually, were I to thank you properly for all the really
informative ( and enjoyable ) posts, I would consume far too
much of Bart's bandwidth! So, for all--many thanks!

Are you sure you're not triplets? {:- ) )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:11 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John,

Did you see my beautiful post 12:45?

I gave you an answer to your very logical
question. The answer is also very logical: YES.

All of them will hold gold as one of the parts of
their own reserves, otherwise you should assume that
all of them are stupid. However, this assumption
seems not logical to me...So, they will hold it.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:13 - ID#269245)
Ted - I choose....
BC! Just visited last weekend. Got my car gutted both times crossing the border. Lots of nice, cheap boats! Going again soon. - c

John Disney__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:19 - ID#24135)
For Sequin and JTF and Brother Oris
Bless you guys... lets mess around with these numbers
and thoughts over the weekend .. Reserves arent JUST
to protect currency I didnt think. So individual
countries KEEP reserves .. and the Euro need for
reserves is ON TOP OF present sum total of individual
nations requirements.. Doesnt it sound a little
different if you say it that way??.
Great stuff .. I have some delta .. should buy
some more. The reef in Zim must be part of the same
one that extends in RSA ( Merensky I think ) . The russian
numbers are much heavier in Palladium since they
out produce RSA by 2:1 in that department but
underproduce in platinum by 5:1.
the RSA PGM production breakdown is about 63% platinum,
30% palladium, 7 % rhodium. I assume thats in line
with your numbers.
Do you know the number of shares for Delta??

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:22 - ID#410194)
Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released this afternoon:

Gold: Unchanged at 567,574 troy ounces

Silver: Fell 424,853 troy ounces to 89,671,473

Copper: Fell 376 short tonnes 112,804

Silver rallied more than 60 cents ( ! ) from its Thursday's lows and FWN quoted a local trader from the Silver pit stating that this should be the equivalent of about a $28 move up in Gold.

It is so true... and Gold only moved $1-$2 dollar.

Times are changing and I suspect that several traders/investors are so stubborn and emotionally attached to some of their investments that have to ABSOLUTELY move in their direction that they fail to recognize some other fantastic opportunities.

Success in these complex and different times belong to those who have an extremely open mind and to those who are not afraid to recognize and aknowledge that some multi-year trends could just continue for....many more years, no matter what their emotions are longing for!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:24 - ID#222231)
Ted, I think I'll move to Newfoundland. Sounds like my kind of place. HeHe.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:26 - ID#250121)
A chicken in every pocket.
While you're speculating on how much "raw material" it would take to put a gold dinar in the pocket of every middle class muslim, perhaps you could cast your all-encompassing mental-net over the amount of silver required for putting a half dozen dirhams in the same pockets. I wonder why WB moved his stash away from US gaze.

these dime-up days are almost too exciting for words.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:29 - ID#280215)
OLD GOLD - Outlook
Sorry, but I don't know Wolanchuk's predictions on PM's. Only know his view on the DOW as per the lunch discussion with friends from Merrill Lynch and PainWeber that I talked about. As I posted yesterday, I do know Prechter's view for Gold and Silver, but am looking for his view on the DOW.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:31 - ID#258129)
@JTF, 15:32
If everything will go well, there will be no national currencies within EMU after 2002. Parliaments of countries involved are working now to change national law, including Constitution. And still every country will have right to keep internal reserves. Why some sell now - because till Dec 12, 1998 there is no approval "external" needed. Of course, selling can not go to far - Italy tried couple of month ago - to improve the figures - and got a strong advise not to do it.
I do not know, why You think, that Germany and France will have total control over ECB. All this legal stuff is a long story, I shall look at it tomorrow and post - its Friday eve, 22:30 in Amsterdam.
PS: First Governor of ECB will probably be Dutch - Douzenberg - 14 countries for, France against - has its own guy. The last one will not get a job anyway - all 15 should vote for and if Dutch will get "no" they will vote "no" for the next.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:33 - ID#246224)
ALL re: various postings relating to ANOTHER, Belgian gold sale price, etc
Your interests may be different than mine. I am not a trader. I'm in physical for the next 3 to 5 years as I've said more than a few times here. I have little or nothing to contribute to the efforts of those who wish to trade, though I'm learning an aweful lot from your various discussions. I am glad that you are ( hope you are ) making a few $$'s.

I like to noodle around with numbers on occation, to check the facts vs the spin to see if anyone is trying to pull a fast one on me. I do think about all your posts. I ponder them and compare them with knowns and things that might be.

If I take your posts seriously it is not because I *know* you, because I don't. Who *are* YOU, oh phantom of the text lines upon a glassy screen? I'm listeaning and thinking about it all. I read LGB's & RJ's posts and ANOTHER's posts. Both are just text on a screen. Someday I may just laugh out loud about what time I've 'wasted' reading all this stuff, no??? Until then I'm here.

The Belgian sale price was US$12.50 higher than the average spot price. Maybe they were selling coins? As someone else said here "Why would someone buy above spot price?". Indeed, something to think about. The 4.25% difference interests me because it is a 'signature', like a frequecy which is not produced by natural noise. This is an empirical observation and one which will warm the hearts of all those who so strongly hold to "just the facts" mode.

I am not looking for conspiracies. I'm looking for reality. If you are content to look at the surface and call it reality, great. I understand that this is sufficient and a valid way. Its not quite what I'm content with. So I keep looking.

My Y2K pieces are here for your consideration because I think they have an extreme impact on people; on society and possible panic in late 1998 and certainly in 1999. If you think this may be a problem strictly from the point of view of markets, including PM's, then it is pertinent here. 99% of what people think of as money is invisible and intangible. Maybe US$15 to 20 TRILLION is in 'markets' rather than in 'things'. It is virtual, digital and the 'sin quo non' of vulnerable to Y2K. If ONE PERCENT of that 'money' tries to become 'things' ... ( wicked smiley thing ) .

Hope this is all OK with you all.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:36 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.54 ( This is a new high for the ratio ) Today the Dow closed at 631.26 in pre 1934 dollars. A week ago the ratio was 29.17 and the Dow was 602.94 in pre 1934 dollars.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:39 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .244 ( a week ago the reading was .260 )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:41 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 46.96 ( a week ago the ratio was 47.72 )

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:44 - ID#182192)
Donald, is it safe to invest in the Dow now?
You said you were watching the ratio to see if it went
up 10% back in October.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:45 - ID#57232)
Glad you are intrigued (suspicious) too!
John Disney: Looks like the old smoke and mirrors, doesn't it? Internal and external reserves! And -- it is not clear to me at all how much of this is supposed to be gold.

No matter what we find, something already does not add up in my mind. For example, why would any european country in their right minds sell of all of their gold reserves if there are to be separate internal and external reserve requirments. Surely they know there will be an 'interim' period when the EURO reserves will not be sufficient to buffer individual 'internal' currency fluctuations! The elimination of non-euro currencies cannot happen overnight.

F Veneroso said that future EURO countries were selling their gold because Germany and France will control EURO gold purchases and sales.

I would guess with what I know now that logically this should be external reserves only -- not internal reserves, which would come later. If a technocratic organization in the EURO will have control over all gold in the EURO as of 1/1/99 ( as one Kitcoite I think posted today ) that would be potentially destabilizing, I think!

Perhaps the weak economies, and disparate inflation rates, loan rates, etc. will not be the only cause of trouble in europe with the euro. There may also be problems with who controls internal reserves, and how much there is to be. I sense an intentional vagueness to cover later changes in the rules to suit the 'powers that be'. Another mystery worthy of SDRer.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:47 - ID#246224)
You are always kind and generous. I am one, not three. Your curiousity is much appreciated on this end. I think there are people who are 'con-vergent' and 'di-vergent' types. Some like prowling around the neglected byways looking for 'interesting' things. I don't know that this appeals to focused ones until the picture is drawn and complete. Anyway I appreciate your contributions and look foreward to them as well as Donald's, Sharfin's and the other 'hunter/gather-er' types here.

Any day now we'll have figured it all out, eh???


(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:47 - ID#25171)
If I thought it was not a joke I would think you are histerically anti-French

Lurker 777
(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:47 - ID#317247)
ANOTHER one bites the dust!
Please, enough of this ANOTHER crap! This guy is pulling all your chains and you eat it up. I find it very hard to believe that anyone really believes his OIL/Gold conspiracy. He was Big Trader and is a regular poster at kitco under a different handle. His prediction was wrong and now he is just another gold bug losing his ASSests.
If you really want good advice and make money give RJ a call.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:52 - ID#36156)
Allen(USA): Why, good sir, do you post in your defense?
Compared to my credentials, you're a rocket scientist.

HenryD - Go GOLD ( a dime at a time? )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:52 - ID#25588)
Straddler - Listened to Wolanchuck last night. He's long over 400 S&P contracts and waiting for the epicenter of primary wave 3 of 3 of 3. A day in which the Dow will gap up 100's of points at a time. He's been talking about it for years. In the short term he's looking for a pullback to 8400 before a rally to 10,000. Of more concern he's looking for a drop into the 4 year cycle low due in the 4th quarter. He had predicted in late 97 the Dow would hit 11,000 this year. On silver he said a close above 6.40 would cement tthe lows in at 5.57. I'm sucking air on my short S&P, but when the 5 hour rsi gives me readings of 95% + it's usually some kind of short term top.

Lurker 777
(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:54 - ID#317247)
Thanks for your input. I got out at 3. They expired worthless!

Lurker 777
(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:57 - ID#317247)
Let me rephrase that: I sold at 3 and they would of expired worthless. Thank You!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 16:57 - ID#26793)
Islamic Banking story (probable date Nov. 23, 1997

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:04 - ID#210235)
Good post. Thanks for sharing the navigator's view. Hope you make a habit of it.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:09 - ID#269245)
Lurker and all
I challenge you as well to disprove the assertion I made in my 15:30 post. It is important that you understand what was actually being said. Like others, you have misinterpretted the writing of Another. Also, understand that his English writing form is as broken as your ability to read it. - c

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:10 - ID#182192)
Donald, let me ask the question again
Is it safe?

( P.S. Since everyone is always holding my
feet to the fire for every prediction I make,
I feel that you should take some responsibility
for your predictions, instead of simply ignoring
people. Please provide some support for your
view that a Dow/gold ratio of 27 was "too high" and
it was a bad idea to invest in the stock market
back in October. )

Otherwise, this is going to turn into a
Lawrence Olivier/Dustin Hoffman kind of exchange.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:11 - ID#288157)
aurator-- particularly beautiful thoughts expressed this morning--

and although they were copyrighted, I cut and pasted into the WP--cause they belong in All time segments! "How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world.!"
Grateful thanks...

All@Kitco.Watching.Waiting If you missed it--dont! Take a moment and go and read it--youll weekend will have a Good Start...
Date: Fri Mar 20 1998 05:49 aurator ( The golden heart of humanity ) ID#257148:

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:13 - ID#182192)
Donald, paging Donald
Is it safe?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:19 - ID#257148)
The golden heart of humanity belongs to each one of us.

This copyright thing is irritating and inexact.But my prayer for relief to Bartus ex Machina was tossed aside like so much soggy lettuce.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:20 - ID#26793)
This Islamic bank describes itself as a wholesaler

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:21 - ID#210235)
You might not have heard of the Prudent Man, but it's a sort of guideline money managers have to consider when making financial decisions. There's a world of difference between gambling and winning and prudently managing funds. Because people make decisions based on one thing or another, and combinations thereof, we have markets.

You apparently are so much of a speculator/gambler that these other considerations don't seem to carry any weight with you. OK. Plenty of people will sit this market out entirely and be content to have missed the chance at "winnings", just as I am content not to frequent gambling casinos. Live and let live, and cut the dripping but juvenile sarcasm. You really sound like the taunting 7th graders over at the middle school.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:28 - ID#286279)
Maybe this point was brought up during the great copyright discussions: I believe that you own the copyright to anything you write publish whether it is labeled or not. So Bart's notice is really just a reminder. I am sure this is also true for photographs.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:34 - ID#26793)
The Ultimate Guide of Islamic Banking and Finance

Lurker 777
(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:41 - ID#317247)
You seem like a intelligent guy so please tell me if you REALLY believe ANOTHERs Oil/Gold conspiracy. I admit it is fun to play the ANOTHER game but lets be serious. We all know what he was implying when he said:
A large purchase, now, is sending another message, bring gold back into $320 to $360 US$ range. We should see this in five to ten days. This will be a hard thing, as it may create a crush to cover. Let us watch this new gold market, as it is not as before.
All: The question is DOES ANYONE BELIEVE THIS GUY IS FOR REAL? If so please post that YOU BELIEVE IN ANOTHER. I would be very interested in everyone's opinion. Thanks!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:45 - ID#284184)
S&P500/Gold Ratio: today, historic averages, and highs and lows

I can never take the place of Donald, but thought that you all might be interested in some compelling S&P 500/Gold ratios.

First, today we hit another new high for the century: 3.769.

This is 35% higher than the peak day in 1968: 2.802
It is 144% higher than the peak day in 1929: 1.547
It is 4.2 times higher than the average for the decade: 0.890
It is 7.2 times higher than the median for the decade: 0.525

It has gone up by a factor of 29, over low in 1980: 0.130

In a late post last night, I quoted Bernard Baruch, when he was asked how he did so well in his investments: "I never bought at the exact low, and never sold at the exact high."

I'm with Allen. Buy gold to hold for a LONG TIME. That the ratio is so high ( along with Donald's Dow/Gold ratio, too ) tells me that we are at historic extremes, in both stocks and gold.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:48 - ID#26793)
Time is true test of analyst's mettle

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:48 - ID#255151)
Copyright? Moi?

Hey, think I'll go back and compile all my posts and market them ( a com-post? ) . On special for Kitcoites and only until 12/31/99 for $3.25.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:49 - ID#317193)
Investing in the stock market is very safe and a sure "bet" as long as the greater fool theory continues as it has to date and fools purchase stocks at P/E ratios up to 500/1. Also, as long as their is no liquidity crisis such as a derivatives implotion safety abounds. My tolerance level for such safety was exceeded in January. Thank God it's still safe. My call for a derivatives crisis is by the end of June. Since I'm invariably an early bird this means by year end. Please don't hang me if I make the first wrong call of my is that the whatever. IMHO. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:51 - ID#286234)
Just realized that you aren't subject to USA or Canadian copyright laws, however, I'll bet that automatic copyright upon publication is a nearly universal notion.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:51 - ID#252391)
Pretty quiet here
Pretty quiet, here; guess a 10 cent rally in gold vs. another 100 points in the dow doesn't quite light the fires at kico. Hey but look at silver; if toays's volumn wasn't light, I'm impressed.. And look at those Comex stocks - at new lows? Hey this is important, I think.

The malaise here is hopefully indicative of good things to come.

Have a good weekend

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:54 - ID#26793)
When I look at the Dow/Gold chart that I now have computerized I think that stock buyers today must have all attended "The Werner von Braun School of Stock Selection". Hope you are old enough to get that one.

Bully Beef
(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:54 - ID#259282)
Is it safe?
Of course not! Safe is buying gold and burying it in your back yard. Is SAFE investing in the market when share prices don't reflect profits or assets or intellectual property? Would you have made money if you had put 5000 buck into an equity fund in October? Damn right! You would still be making money in 6 months? Don't know. Wish I did.
Tell us your spin Mr. Ventadorme on the next year because I know you have one and I'd like to know.
Inkwireing mines want to no?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 17:55 - ID#28594)
This may be insignificant, but NOT to those who think words have meaning...

The Japanese yogurt company that suffered $800mn+ losses
in derivatives....

CNBC ( and no doubt others ) reports the story thus:
$831 mn in losses from derivative trading...

Give me leave to doubt VERY seriously, that this Japanese company for one moment thought they were TRADING derivatives. They were no doubt trying to hedge their currency exposure. WHY WE NEED A REAL STANDARD OF MEASUREMENT/VALUE. Why we need gold.. Yogurt makers need to be able to concentrate on making excellent yogurt...or widgits, or whatever!

Going to run off with Donald's guide to Islamic banking. Thank you Donald!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:03 - ID#26793)
I'll take one if its leather bound with gold leaf title.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:05 - ID#393224)
They will soon be attending the 'Jacque Cousteau School of Stock Selection'.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:08 - ID#257148)

I know enough about copyright law to know I do not know much about copyright law. NZ is a signatory to Intl Copyright reciprocal agreements. My point was that many of our posts are purporting to claim copyright, simply because we forget to "turn off the copyright default."

Sometimes this means that a poster will inadvertantly claim copyright in a post that actually is a copy of a copyrighted source, a newspaper, for example. This would, ( imho for which I haven't been paid, therefore is worth about that ) be a breach of the true copyright holder's copyright. And if i was a copyright lawyer I'd say it was easy money, but I aint so I wont.

The other inadvertant effect is that some posters forget to Uncopyright their post ( ie place it in the public domain ) so the copyright notice is attached to a post which the poster intends for the public domain.

I think RJ put it rather well when, scoffing at the  notices, he pointed out that nothing is  in most of SE Asia, China, India anyway. So this is really farting against thunder. ( That's what I said, not RJ )

Everything on kitco is in the public domain. It is a public chat. Can you imagine Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, or anywhere there is debate, someone trying to claim copyright on what is said?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:09 - ID#288295)
Just got in and saw your request for info from EWT....Unfortunately, the March issue ( latest ) only has data thru Feb 27, so is woefully out of date by that time, EWT was counting two possible scenarios: [1] that the low in October was wave A of an A-B-C-D-E contracting triangle forming wave ( 4 ) and the highest leg of that triangle B was ending.....[2] that the low in October was wave ( 4 ) and that a 1-2-3-4-5 diagonal triangle was forming for wave ( 5 ) .....It seems that the first scenario is now rejected, and their forecast top below 8600 for both scenarios has now also been breached. I'm not a subscriber to their daily web update service, so I don't know where they stand currently on the DJIA.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:17 - ID#28594)
Lurker 777, is Another "real"?

In our cyber-village, what constitutes a "real" person?

If by "real", you mean a manner that is uniformly kind,
polite and patient, then yes, Another is "real".

If by "real", you mean thoughtful posts then yes, Another
is "real".

If by "real", you mean information/hints/suggestions, that
have--in my experience--lead to hard, factual data, then yes, Another is "real".

Please don't let yourself be upset by this. We are all independent adults
here and may choose freely from the banquet Bart provides us, and choose only what appeals. Just pass by the Another "platter" if you feel it will upset. And don't be upset that others wish to enjoy it! Read Aurator's
post of 05:49 [or somewhere near] and enjoy!

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:22 - ID#182192)
You people who are sitting on the sidelines
are the ones who were sitting on the sidelines in October.
My point is not that the Dow is a risk-free investment.
My point is that, back in October when Donald was telling
us to wait for a Dow/gold ratio of 28.6 to confirm a
bull market in stocks, I was telling people that was
where I would be getting out of stocks. Had I missed
the move from Dow/gold 27 to Dow/gold 28.6, I would
have been upset. Don't let a policy of "watchful
waiting" mask a real policy of "Never invest in the
Dow". This is what Donald is actually advocating
with his Dow/gold ratio, that the Dow is overvalued
and should be avoided. I am not disputing that the
Dow is overvalued, nor was I disputing this back in
October. I am only stating that the Dow was going
to get more overvalued before it got less overvalued,
and this has proven to be the case. You people who
missed out can talk about gambling and the true
store of money and whatever it is you comfort yourself
with - the truth is the Dow has been a better investment
over the last 10 years than gold. Period. End of story.
Nowhere in that statement did I say that the Dow would
be a better investment than gold for the next 10 years,
nor did I say that it wouldn't be a better investment
than gold in the next ten years. All I said was this:

Over the last 10 years, the Dow has been a better investment
than gold. I have made much more money in the stock market
than I have in gold. Over the last 10 years, every time
I sold a stock that I purchased sometime within those 10 years,
I have much happier than everytime I sold gold purchased
sometime within those last ten years.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:22 - ID#393224)
Your $10 001 for a one year subscription to the Antipodean Contrarian Newsletter has still not arrived and you are therefore in default of your legal obligations. We are, however, cognizant of the difficulties subscribers sometimes face in meeting their fiduciary duties. In your case we are going to make an exception and will allow you to send us your copywrited Kitco postings as full payment of the above. Other subsribers are warned, however, not to try to weasel out of their subscriptions. Once you subscribe, you are ours for life.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:25 - ID#182192)
Not only do I know ANOTHER is real
I have slept with him.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:25 - ID#34857)
Aurator 05:49
Thank you. I can't tell you how much your post touched me. Wow, it was awesome!


(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:26 - ID#269245)
You are correct in assuming that I approach all predictions here with great doubt. However, I read Another's prediction ( Yes, frankly, I am sick of talking about it too ) as to say that the sale/purchase would happen in 5 to 10 days ( exclusively ) - and ( next sentence ) the price hike would follow soon. Granted, that is a pretty ambiguous prediction - of course gold will rise soon! Sorry if I attacked you, but I have been bothered ( perhaps inappropriately ) by statements on this forum that I consider to be rash and careless. The Belgian sale may or may not be what Another was referring to, but right now I think that Allen's analysis a couple days ago was fairly convincing. The Belgian sale was a strange one, because it never affected the supply of gold in the common market. I suspect that it did go to a third party, a rather large investing entity. As far as the whole oil/gold thing goes, I really don't know. I DO know that things are really screwed up right now and I am trying to find my way to the bottom of it. I firmly beleive that oil producing nations MUCH prefer gold over paper, so Another's "story" seems faily beleivable to me. However, I do not want to be construed as one of those "Another Followers" either - whom I have also attacked in the past. What I am trying to say ( and what you clearly agree with ) is that we need to remain objective. If there hadn't been a major sale/purchase in the past ten days, I too would say that Another's prediction was innacurate. But there was one, so now I think we need to remain objective. Personally, I was pretty sure that no EU CB's would sell until after the ECU reserves were set in stone. This is very suprising to me. At this point, I think any sale of gold is stupid - I think most government entities are at least dimly aware of that fact. - I'll post now and perhaps add more later so that you can respond. - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:33 - ID#57236)
EURO -- last post -- heading home!
SDRer, Delphi: SDRer - Thanks for your EURO url. Delphi -- Frank Veneroso, the $8,000/year gold 'Guru', said that the reason european CB's were selling gold -- Belgium, Netherlands, etc. was because they soon would have 'no control' over the selling or buying of gold. FV then said ( in the Canarc Dec 1997 post ) that Germany and France 'would have control over the gold buying and selling'.

I do not know what FV meant by that, or whether Germany and France would have control over 'internal' and 'external' reserves.

My take from all of this is that greed/desire for power may have precipated that first phase of the gold bear driven by european CB gold sales. So - something is up. If the final system is not more democratic where each EURO member can vote on matters of currency reserve percentages or gold reserves, there is likely to be much turmoil, in addition to the problems of differential inflation rates that George Soros warned about!

Just imagine what will happen if there is a currency crisis in a EURO country with no internal gold reserves! I'm willing to bet that the external EURO reserves are only intended to stabilize the EURO, not the underlying currencies -- could be big time trouble ahead if this matter is not resolved.

Delphi -- I think we all would be very interested in what you could dig up about the EURO -- especially since you think the new CB director might be Dutch, and not German or French!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:36 - ID#26669)
LazloT re last nite's 21:41 post
Hmmm...I didn't know us bank note were interest bearing insturments. I thought they were just supposed to be 'legal tender', whatever that means. You're right though about no mechanism of interest accruel or payment to my knowledge. IMHO

( Of course, with inflation there is a certain deterioration of value which could be likened to radioactive decay, with half lives calculable by a rate of inflation factor and a rate of pregressive taxation factor.IMHO )

In another post you mentioned negative splits for banknotes like for stocks. I saw that in real life in the Brazil of 30+/- years ago. It was really weird driving around and seeing different prices in the cities and in the back country depending on how fast the inflation was communicated. They went from the Cruzero to the NewCruzero to the Crusado in a very short time. The only diffence was each bill was several orders of magnitude "more valuable" than the previous one. IMHO

But no matter where you went a Collins machete or litre of gas or pair of boots or shotgun shell or a transaxle for a VW bus was cost about the same relative to the other commodities. I didn't see any coins except for cheap ( pot metal or aluminum? ) ones but would be willing to bet that gold ans silver would have maintained value relative to commodities. IMHO

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:37 - ID#288369)
You're a cheap slut...I am so disappointed in you. Was it real?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:38 - ID#253153)
We are close to the DOW TOP
Anyone who has been in stocks since 1982 has made a ton of money in stocks. However, after almost 17.5 years of a bull market in commom stocks the following conditions exist today : The Dow dividend yield is 1.5%, the lowest in history. The Dow is selling for almost 23 times trailing earning,the highest in history. The Dow is selling for almost 6 times book value. Speculation is rampant. We are close to the top. I think that the Dow will top sometimes in April-may time frame and tehn a giantic bear market will begin. Remember, the divident Dow yield is 1.5%, how much lower can it go ?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:39 - ID#401349)
@ bernatz
Your 18:25. Did you accept paper or gold?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:40 - ID#341234)
I do not understand why gold is compared to the DOW or S&P 500 in a ratio. This ratio is meaningless. Stocks will always appreciate more than gold over the long term because businesses grow larger and generate earnings. Gold is a hedge. It would make much more sense to compute its value over time relative to inflation.

Having said this, I still believe gold is under valued and the stock market is over valued. I just wonder how long it will take for everyone else to figure it out.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:43 - ID#182192)
He was a perfect gentleman
The whole thing will appear in a popular

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:43 - ID#25255)
I enjoy your most analytical posts. They seem to imply that a statisticians armamentarium nests in you PC. Do you use SIGMA-PLOT?
Notwithstanding these observations, a simple "finger-in-the-wind" might suffice in characterizing the rarified air of the S&P ( I was out at DOW=6500 ) or in fathoming the tragic depths to which PMs have sunk. Correlation of these two events by simple ratio might be found to have no real intrinsic meaning, do you think? As a novice, I can only surmise some statistical coefficient to assess these data such as sigma or tau. Thank you for your feedback. Go shiney stuff!!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:46 - ID#269245)
Lurker - Your other good point...
was asking if I thought he was real. Again, I do not know. I am suspicious that many on this site are advertising - especially those who post other sites that are trying to sell something. But I also find myself agreeing, or at least not dicounting, what many posters have to say. The Belgian sale/purchase ( ? ) ( notice, I decided I should add the question... ) tends to make me respect Another's views a little more - though I am still very skeptical. Experience teaches us that trust is something that must be earned - especially here! I'll try to stop beating this dead, pulpy mass now as I am sure everyone is sick of this re-occuring discussion! - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:48 - ID#26669)
Ted re 16:03 post
Your sense of humor is indubitable, Sir. Would you allow this humble personage who is too gold-poor to afford a handle other than the meager number '223' to copy and past your copyrighted post to mail to a friend?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:48 - ID#317193)
Your 18:22- okay, so why the taunt of is it safe yet? Do you agree with Donald at this point in time? If so, so what. You could, conceivably, carry on a discussion rather than rub salt in the wounds. To each his/her own ( political correctness again ) . I loved your 18:25 post;such double meanings do well here. At least with some people. Hope to see you post frequently. Tom

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:49 - ID#269245)
would you mind explaining what internal and external reserves are? I saw that news report and did not understand why there was a distinction. - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:49 - ID#253153)
Close to a Dow top
I also wanted to mention that in 1929 the Dow yield was 2.98 % when the market topped. Today with the Dow yield at 1.5% ,the risk is substantially higher. The question is --what will trigger the upcoming Dow decline ?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 18:55 - ID#238295)
JP: With insider buy/sell ratios deteriorating rapidly, there is little doubt we are near A TOP. But whether it is THE TOP still is a moot question.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:00 - ID#269409)
Wow...Go Silver... "A" word....
A guy leaves for a few hours to do rocket science and Silver becomes the rocket.....excellent! I see the forum is still discussing the "A" word, so I'll refrain.....with the exception of one observation.

Isn't it something that Platinum AND Silver made spectacular moves this week and the only metal that showed lackluster, tired, flat, dull performance was GOLD!

This ought to give the "A" word worshippers pause......

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:00 - ID#224151)
Muchas gracias for your response but it still doesn't seem to work:
http:// what the hell's the matter? Is it supposed to underline automatically? Help!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:03 - ID#224151)
@ Auric
My answer was in the posting! El Stupido Tnx you again.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:04 - ID#257148)
Waiting for Goldot
You and some others have mentioned that waiting for this Au market to do something is like a Beckett play. It reminded me of one of my merican heroes, Steve Goodman - Chicago Shorty, and his "Watching Joey Glow" which was a dig at the then mawkish popular song "Watching Scotty Grow."
Please don't be put off by the URL, crusty..

Watching Joey Glow

Steve Goodman

Down here in the shelter, we've got everything we need.
Mom put up her peach preserves, Pa's got a book to read.
Sister knits some bandages, and we turn the lights down low
And play some Scrabble, watching Joey glow.

At breakfast Mom hands Joe the bread, and he turns it into toast.
Last night he hugged a leg of lamb, and soon we had a roast.
You should see him heat the coffee up when he stirs it with his toe.
We all get hungry, watching Joey glow.

( BREAK: )

You have to wear dark glasses if you look at him a while,
Or he'll fry your little eyes out with his incandescant smile.

At Chistmastime, it sure felt strange, but it was great to see
The way we decorated Joe as if he was our tree,
And his star was shining brightly underneath the mistletoe,
So we blew him kisses, watching Joey glow.

( BREAK: )

I hope the world's not over, for my sake and for his.
I'd love for everyone to know how brilliant Joey is.

We've been down here for six months now, and we're proud to be alive.
We owe it to America to sit here and survive.
So we listen to the static on the short wave radio
And count the shock waves, watching Joey glow.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:05 - ID#253153)
Old Gold, George Schaefer prediction
The great Dow Theorist George Schaefer ( when he was alive ) always claimed that unless our currency is backed by Gold, the Dow will top somewhere between 1-2 % Dow Jones dividend yield. Schaefer was the best in his time ( 1946--1974 ) .

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:07 - ID#285392)
Congratulations on your silver call, it was almost perfect!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:10 - ID#286279)
aurator = a
sam = s

a- My point was that many of our posts are purporting to claim copyright, simply because we forget to "turn off the copyright default." 

s- I dont know the letter of the law either, but my point is if internet chat posts are copyrightable then to be consistent you would would have to formally release your rights not simply turn off the copyright notice. A few posters have actually done that here.

a- Sometimes this means that a poster will inadvertantly claim copyright in a post that actually is a copy of a copyrighted source, a newspaper, for example.

s- Right, maybe we should all be more rigorous about acknowledging quotations. It is something you would pay close attention to if you were publishing in print on paper.

a- I think RJ put it rather well when, scoffing at the  notices, he pointed out that nothing is  in most of SE Asia, China, India anyway. So this is really farting against thunder. ( That's what I said, not RJ ) 

s- Yup,...all that bootleg music and software on compact disc. Some of my photographs have been illegally copied many times that I know of. Not much can be done about it.

a- Everything on kitco is in the public domain. It is a public chat. Can you imagine Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, or anywhere there is debate, someone trying to claim copyright on what is said?

s- Im not so sure about that. Its an important internet/copyright issue that will be difficult to resolve, I think.

s- Your "look around" post was great!

Notice: The public is hereby granted permission to reprint the contents of this post except for those portions that may be copyrighted by aurator.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:12 - ID#269409) new battery technology? maybe....

Friday March 20, 5:13 pm Eastern Time

NY precious metals end higher led by silver

NEW YORK, March 20 ( Reuters ) - COMEX and NYMEX precious metal futures ender higher
Friday, led by a rise in silver prices after news the recent purchase of a large amount of silver by
U.S. billionaire Warren Buffett may have been motivated in part by the potential demand for silver
in new silver-zinc battery technology.

``Silver broke through some technical chart points around $6.00 an ounce, which contributed to the
buying started by the story about why Warren Buffett may be buying silver,'' said Carlos
Perez-Santalla, a COMEX floor trader with Hudson River Futures.

``There was some trade selling near $6.00, but it was overwhelmed by fund shortcovering and
some new longs coming into the market, partly on the basis of the Buffett story,'' he said.

COMEX May silver ended up 24.5 cents at $6.135 an ounce, recovering from a four week low
seen Thursday at $5.57.

Total CSCE silver volume was estimated at a moderate 22,000 lots.

In the bullion market, spot silver ended quoted $6.21/24 Friday, compared to the London fix
earlier Friday at $5.9325 and the New York close Thursday at $5.95/98.

Silver's forward price curve remains in its most persistent backwardation since 1980, and silver
lease rates rose further today to around 13.00 pct for one month.

Earlier Friday industry consultants, Chiport Proprietary Research ( CPR ) of Katonah, New York
said Friday that Buffett's purchase of 20 pct of the world's silver may anticipate a new use for the
metal in fuel cells.

On February 3, 1998, U.S. billionaire, Warren Buffett, announced that his company, Berkshire
Hathaway ( BRKa - news ) , had bought 129.7 million ounces of silver, about 20 pct of the world's
estimated silver bullion inventories.

Spot silver prices rose to nine year highs at $7.90 an ounce in early February, partly on news of
Buffett's purchase.

``Scientists are racing to develop the next generation of fuel cell batteries used to power electric
cars, laptop computers, cellular phones, submarines and satellites and one of the most promising is
silver-zinc fuel cells,'' said Richard J. Siegel, managing partner, Chilport Proprietary Research.

The fact that he ( Buffett ) is a major shareholder in Gillette ( G - news ) , the parent company of
Duracell focused us on batteries,`` Siegel said.

High energy, rechargeable silver-zinc batteries are already being used in the U.S. Navy's deep sea
rescue vehicle, designed to perform at great ocean depths and on the Mars Pathfinder Lander,
which provided electrical power to the lander for the mission.

A 1900-watt, silver-zinc battery also powered the Honda Dream Solar Car, which recently won the
annual World Solar Challenge race for sun-powered cars, reaching a top speed of 110 km ( 68mph )
on desert roads.

``Silver-zinc battery technology does exist and about 40 pct of the batteries by weight are silver,''
said Paul Bateman, director of the Washington DC-based Silver Institute.

``The batteries produce a higher energy but have a shorter life than other technology and so far
have mostly been used in defence and space applications,'' he said.

Meanwhile, COMEX April gold ended up 10 cents at $292.10, after trading a $291.30-293.70
range. Total COMEX gold volume was estimated at a moderate 40,000 lots.

In the bullion market, spot gold ended quoted $291.50/00, compared to the London Friday
afternoon fix at $292.40 and the New York close Thursday around $291.30/80.

In the past month spot gold prices have been slipping lower again, after recovering from an 18
year low in January around $276.50 to a three month high around $305.80. News this week that
the central bank of Belgium had sold an additional 299 tonnes of gold from its reserves added to
the bearish tone.

NYMEX April platinum ended up $2.90 at $413.0 an ounce, while NYMEX June palladium closed
up $2.75 at $260.35.

The Hermit
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:12 - ID#369247)
@ Allen(USA) - your 16:33
The search for reality ( The Truth ) is admirable and good. May we all find it here at Kitco. I enjoyed this post.


The Hermit

Mike Sheller
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:13 - ID#347447)
Poorboys - Pork Bellies (done to a Golden turn, of course)
I am honored that you have singled me out for porcine duty tonite. I was just ruminating this very day, after a radio commercial recording session, regaling fellow adpersons, marketers, and producers on what a marvelous bit of copy was ( is ) "Pork - the OTHER white meat!" Sort of like "gold...the other spendable money" I volunteered "Beef - it ain't PIG!" Be that as it may, a look at the Pork Bellies price chart ( sorry, can't do a horoscope on a pig ) ( or won't ) looks like there might be a pullback to 41.50/42. That would be a buy area as far as I can see. A significant bustout over current prices would signal a fresh, Pork Bellies. They sure as hell loook due.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:14 - ID#257148)
my 19:04 see what I mean? darn it I can't claim copyright over the words of Chicago Shorty, who is sorely missed by this salty antipodean.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:19 - ID#287312)
Buffett / Watch what he does, not what he says !
Forget what buffett says, watch what he's doing. Moving out of stocks into PM's.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:20 - ID#257148)
sunny golden autumn afternoon in paradise.

sam. Thank you, amigo, for your clarity.

Mike sheller
You might like Chicken Cordon Blues at


Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:23 - ID#26395)
IPMI Potentially interesting engagement
To All:

I received the following from the IPMI ( International Precious Metals Institute 610 395-9700 ) which may be of interest to many. Anyone can attend, you don't have to be a member. They're charging $70.00 a head. Registration details are on the attachment.


"APRIL 23, 1998 New York City

The IPMI Metro New York has organized a Financial Seminar which will convene at 4:00 P.M. in the new headquarters building of the New York Mercantile Exchange.

The Keynote Speaker will be Mr. Dale Henderson, Director of International Finance of the Federal Reserve Bank, Washington, D.C. Mr. Henderson is a strong advocate of the position that gold no longer has a place in the global monetary system, and the central banks of the world should be encouraged to sell their gold reserves sooner rather than later. His presentation will be of very special interest to representatives from the precious metals industry.

Mr. Henderson's presentation will be followed by one from Mr. Robert Pringle of the World Gold Council, which has recently announced realignment of their world-wide promotion efforts.

Other speakers will be Mr. Lloyd Norris, Financial Columnist for the New York Times, and Mr. Jeffrey Christian, Managing Director of the New York-based CPM Group. The program will conclude with a fully-hosted reception from 6:00 - 8:00 P.M.

Registration may be made by completing the attached form and returning it to IPMI Headquarters. Please register as soon as convenient but not later than April 20th."

Mike Sheller
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:27 - ID#347447)
Alchemy and some illusions of granduer
Just a word of caution to the erudite kitco krowd, over whose collective eyes one cannot pull the wool for long. Be advised, friends, that when you speak of "Alchemy," you be aware that the ancient art was a blind for the transmutation of the baser aspects of the human animal soul to the higher aspirations of God's intentions for the race. True "alchemy" is the age old spiritual science of human and spiritual regeneration. The powers and rectitude acquired by a holy and purified life are the call of God in any age, any time, any religion. The dark age metaphysicians couldn't compete with the Church, lest they be drawn and quartered as heretics , so they created the mettallic mask of purification for the dummies to lock on. Don't be a dummy. There is a scientific basis for the regeneratyion of the human body that tradition takes note of, but moderns have been in total denial over. This is the esoteric foundation of all scripture, and ESPECIALLY the New Testatment. Seek, and ye shall find, but do not expect Mercury, Lead, or any other base metal to be converted to gold. ( Don't even expect much paper to be converted to gold, these days ) It is your base desires that must be raised, and your wasted, indulgent earthly energies converted, into the true spiritual gold of purity and holiness.
Yeah, Kitco guys n' gals. Riiiigghhhtt! Go and sin no more. ( or some more, or whatever you wish ) . Just be warned about "alchemy" so you don't embarrass yourselves at your next cocktail party. OK?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:28 - ID#347457)
@How strange this market is and how funny are our readings/interpretations
Folks, we have some way to go before it turns around. Just a few "thoughts".
Each gold sale by CB requires equal purchase by some other party. So why is it everybody talks about XYZ CB sold gold, instead ABS bought gold? Sale puts a negative spin, buy puts a positive one. Until each large gold transaction is though of as "large purchase" instead of "large sale", gold is in trouble.

As far as Another goes, I was never a big admirer of him, however, don't put into his mouth what he never said. He talked about some actions will take place to help gold not "gold will rise to $320 level in the same time frame." We tend to project our hopes when we interpret what we see.

In between, I play energy services again. Looks like the better immediate bet than gold.

Mike Sheller
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:32 - ID#347447)
Give me a D minor 7

Mike Sheller
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:36 - ID#347447)
Stay away from energy until the very beginning of '99. But buy all you can IN THE GROUND between now and then. IN THE GROUND.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:37 - ID#26793)
Many of us here at Kitco think of gold as real money and have difficulty in determining real measurements in dollars due to the devastation of the dollar by inflation. Measuring the Dow in ounces of gold helps us to see exactly where we are without resorting to CPI figures that are subject to government manipulation.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:39 - ID#217338)
SOURCE: Standard & Poor's
Great Central Mines Assigned BB Rating by S&P
MELBOURNE, Australia, March 20 /PRNewswire/ -- Standard & Poor's today assigned its double-'B' corporate credit rating to Great Central Mines Ltd. ( Nasdaq:GTCMY - news; GCM ) and its double-'B' long-term rating to the proposed US$250 million senior notes issue due 2008. The rating outlook is stable.

The ratings on GCM reflect its position as one of Australia's largest and lowest-cost gold producers, which is enhanced by prospective low-cost reserve replacement and a substantial hedge position. This is offset by an aggressive financial policy and short operational performance and financial track record.

GCM ranks among the top three gold producers in Australia, with projected annual production for fiscal 1998 exceeding 700,000 ounces compared to 436,000 ounces produced in fiscal 1997. GCM owns and operates four mines, Bronzewing, Jundee, Nimary, and Wiluna, all located within the highly prospective areas of the Yandal and Wiluna belts, north of Kalgoorlie in Western Australia. The increase in production is a result of the successful acquisitions of the Nimary and Wiluna mining operations in late 1997. A combination of acquisitions and exploration successes has increased GCM's total gold reserves to more than 6.1 million ounces at Dec. 31, 1997 from 4.8 million ounces at fiscal 1997. Based on current mining rates, GCM has sufficient reserves for about eight years production. Standard & Poor's expects the reserve base to increase to a accommodate a 10-year mining schedule, through resource conversion and exploration success.

GCM is a low-cost gold producer, with total cash operating costs of A$277 per ounce achieved in fiscal 1997. The company's low cost position is expected to continue, with projected cash operating costs of about A$300 per ounce in fiscal 1998. The increase in costs is due to a greater proportion of ore being sourced from underground operations, although at a higher grade. GCM's exposure to a volatile gold price is mitigated to an extent by the company's gold hedging policy and the weaker Australian dollar exchange rate. GCM has a substantial gold hedge book, with about six million ounces, or 70% of projected gold production, hedged forward over 10 years in Australian dollars, at an average price of A$587 per ounce.

GCM has recorded profits in the past two consecutive years against previous losses. Future profitability is supported by the company's strong gold hedge position and low cost base. Standard & Poor's anticipates the financial profile of GCM to remain aggressive over the term of the notes, with leverage ( total debt-to-capital ) expected to peak at 60% in fiscal 1998, and remain above 40% over the 10 year term. Standard & Poor's expects GCM's funds from operations-to-debt coverage to range from 20%-30%, with interest times cover of about 3.0 x until fiscal 2008. The proceeds from the notes issue will be used to repay a loan from Normandy Mining Ltd. ( triple-'B'-minus/Stable/-- ) that currently holds a 19.3% shareholding in GCM, with the balance used to reduce existing bank debt.

OUTLOOK: Stable.

GCM's business position is enhanced by its low cost operations, strong hedge position, long mine reserves, and exploration potential. GCM has increased access to cash flow from the Nimary and Wiluna operations; however, a sustained track record of commercial production and profitability is yet to be achieved, Standard & Poor's said. -- CreditWire

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:45 - ID#269245)
Can you find the "evil man" in the following article??

"If you've got engaged in crimes that transcend national borders, you need ... communications that are recoverable," he said.
"If you've got a government that defends Natural Law, freedom, and privacy then ... you don't have to worry about international terrorists and international drug dealers," I say. "sheesh!" - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:47 - ID#269245)
CORRECTION: one more time, for the record!

"If you've got international terrorists and international drug dealers engaged in crimes that transcend national borders, you need ... communications that are recoverable," he said.
"If you've got a government that defends Natural Law, freedom, and privacy then ... you don't have to worry about international terrorists and international drug dealers," I say. "sheesh!" - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:52 - ID#269409)
my FINAL word on the "A" word!!!
Sorry to indulge again but....While all the revisionist history re the A words post is quite humorous, there seems to be a lot of confusion, as to what he predicted and how he said it. For clarification, heres his statement with contrasting comments from todays metals close news.....

Re the past 2 weeks A said;

Date: Mon Mar 09 1998 07:55 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:
ALL: The purchase of large physical stocks of gold in Nov. did send a message to the CBs. They did begin slowdown of sales/easing. The "management tool of gold in the 90s" ( see Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 13:08 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! )  ID #60253 is now going to go in reverse!

What ACTUALLY ocurred

the central bank of Belgium had sold an additional 299 tonnes of gold from its reserves added to the bearish tone.

A said

 A large purchase, now, is sending another message, "bring gold back into $320 to
$360 US$ range. We should see this in five to ten days. This will be a hard thing, as it may create a crush to cover. Let us watch this "new gold market", as it is not as before

What ACTUALLY ocurred

Meanwhile, COMEX April gold ended up 10 cents at $292.10, after trading a $291.30-293.70 range. Total COMEX gold volume was estimated at a MODERATE 40,000 lots.
In the past month spot gold prices have been slipping lower again........

LGB Comment;

Folks, it isnt any hostility toward A person, or some mythical envy that motivates my ( and other folks ) Reality check posts. Its a love of honest, rational, truth in evaluating the validity of any school of thought. Particularly as they relate to investments, science, medicine....etc.!

A character ought to continue posting.....but its tough for some of us not to find it amusing when all this deep analysis is done to try and rewrite the history of what the person said.

Remember when everyone used to say Paul McCartney was dead cause of all the cluse in the Beatle album covers and lyrics? ( Not to mention Hey Jude played backwards! ) All this humormous stuff re the A person, reminds me of that kind of thinking.......

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:54 - ID#269245)
Thanks for the announcement, but I'm afraid I will not be attending as I might loose my temper in the middle Mr Dale Henderson's speach - I wouldn't want to make waves, ya know. $70 for that BS! I guess it might be worth it to understand the mentality of the other side. A forgotten book by Ayn Rand comes to mind.... excuse me... - c

Bully Beef
(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:57 - ID#259282)
Better a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 19:58 - ID#224149)
Something vibrates around the world
Astrology -- When one thinks how ridiculous one is predicating the future using planet cycles remember what has just taken place. Pluto the planet of death and regeneration danced into the house of Sagittarius last year and started a world phenomena of death and love .The death of the Princess of Wales and Elton Johns remake of Candle in the wind sold over 30 million copies and this year TITANIC the biggest money making movie of all time showed death and love in a world of uncertainty .Yes the planets say something but only a few will ever understand. The harmonic of Pluto gives us the Venus quality of love from death. Away for some carrot juice.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:06 - ID#26793)
I forgot to mention that I have a chart of the Dow priced in ounces of gold back to 1903. When you examine it you will see the steady progress of industry that you mentioned. We are miles above that trendline. I would be pleased to send it to your postal address. I am unable to send it by e.mail. If you would like a copy just let me know. ( As usual, offer open to all )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:09 - ID#25255)
(LGB on "A")
Thank you, thank you! Your level head always seems to settle the restless genre of the masses. So much for 'Narcissus "A"ureus'. Go Shiney Stuff!!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:18 - ID#269409)
@ Aurator
Re your 19:20. you sure you want to post a URL with "HEPCAT" in the title?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:19 - ID#269245)
LGB and Zeke
We have offered you very compelling words to the contrary of your interpretation. I am not going to persue this debate any longer. I respect what you offer this group and will continue to, dispite our differences on this issue. Thank you. - c

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:22 - ID#224149)
Mike Sheller  Thank You for your thoughts ---- Maybe one day we can find a pig that talks. If not then into the pig pen I go with my stopwatch ---Once I get those birth signs --- Who knows how rich that little piggy will get. ---Away to listen to Sissel

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:26 - ID#26793)
Drug money laundering in Mexico implicates persons in verrrry high places.

PH in LA
(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:26 - ID#225408)
Ramblings from another source.
Lurker777, Clone, etc.

There can be observed a certain mentality which tries to distill truth out of opinion by polling. Add up all the "fors" and balance them with the "againsts" and "truth" can be observed. I, for one, do not subscribe to such theories. The "truth" always exists in itself, irrespective of who sees it and who doesn't.

As far as ANOTHER goes, not even he himself would advocate basing our own private investment decisions on his advice. Many have tried to pin him down, even to the point of asking him for his own personal allocation percentages and recieved only rebuff.

This is not to say ( like LGB and other intellectual sluggards have tried to do ) that nothing can be gained from considering ANOTHER's comments in total seriousness. Those who have done so have already profitted hugely. For example, the workings of the LBMA in engineering behind-the-scenes transactions is becoming much clearer. Allen ( USA ) has used ANOTHER's THOUGHTS to insightful advantage and has discovered something very interesting about the Belgium sale. JTF is moving towards confirmation of the scary possibility about a two-tiered world market in gold trading. The mechanism or the fixing of the gold price ( in London and at the Comex ) has been seriously called into question. etc.

What we do not know is what lies ahead for us all. TYoung's expectation of a world-wide derivitives crisis of monumental proportions gains credence from ANOTHER's arguments. So far, it looks as if ANOTHER has some insider information and/or understanding about how the gold market and the oil market work. It would seem like the height of folly to disregard his warnings completely and declare him a fraud, liar and worse, invective we have all read here. If it seems dangerous to follow his advice, it would seem just as dangerous to scoff at it.

JTF, Allen ( USA ) and others have the idea: If we use the light from ANOTHER's comments to investigate and question the standard accepted interpretations of reality to deepen our own understanding of it, we win! Enough understanding and successful investing cannot fail to follow. IMHO.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:51 - ID#411233)
Great news Goldbugs--Sold all my gold mining co shares today. If past performance is any
indication, gold should be at about $400 at the close on Monday!

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Mar 20 1998 20:59 - ID#182192)
Could someone please sell EJ or whoever over on K2
some gold at $120. That way his story would be more
realistic and everyone could go to college buying gold.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:04 - ID#255190)
Fred re: DOW/Gold one more thought to go with Donald's
If one does not view gold as an absolute measure of value the DOW/gold ratio is still of use as it measures the relative sentiment of the markets as they move money from one side of the seesaw to the other. Gold in this sense represents the safest of currencies whereas Stocks represent the opportunities and risks of investments. Bonds fall somewhere in between ( depending upon which countries bonds they are ) .

Since they are both denominated in US$'s these cancel out of the ratio and leave one with a direct comparison. Gold in this sense represents liquidity without risk.

At this time the DOW/Gold ratio is saying "Everybody is mesmerized by stocks." and "No body is afraid of liquidity or systemic risk issues.". The extremes tell us that we are at a top and these sentiments will change in short order. When? Who could tell?! But I would rather buy low priced gold than high priced stocks at this time.

This IMHO and with Donald's indulgence!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:16 - ID#210235)
Thank you for your sacrifice. We all appreciate your efforts to confirm a bottom in gold by dumping all your metals stock. And Farfel's exit, too. We need a really big name, like Jim Dines giving up 17 years ago, to give us the assurance of the behaviorist cowed, I mean crowd.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:17 - ID#411259)
..... Response Salad .....

Pete -

I know of a couple companies that are purported to be leaders in fuel cell technology. I would have to dig up the names next week. Regarding your query: Yes, I have made some unwise calls. I tend to point them out before others do it for me. Nobody is 100% in these markets. Trick is to make more than you loose.

JD -

Them gold mines run deep down there. If you reread my original post on this subject, my point was entirely that SA and Russian PGM production was fundamentally different. Actually, Norilsk ( source of almost all Russian PGM production ) is primarily a nickel mine and both platinum and palladium are byproducts. I will defer to you, being much closer to the source and much wiser than I about mining, about depths. Now I have a bee up my ass. I'm going to grill my sources and report the results. I do agree that the point is really moot, but I like to be accurate.

Clone -

You mislabel me vindictive. I could care less about this other fellow. I think it is a hoot that so many here spend endless hours debate the wisdom of ANOTHER now, BT before, maybe SCHMOE-BOY will be the next mysterious prognosticator. Everybody here thinks these posts say something different. I think we can conclude by this, that ANOTHER's posts are vague at best, and silly in the most probable. Doesn't matter really, were an alternative universe created identical in all respects to this one, except ANOTHER never posted here, these same folks would be beating the same drums of gold manipulations and international trilateral one world order conspiracies. I suspect these are the same who receive the National Enquirer by mail and think Bill Clinton never inhaled.


Excellent info in RSA mines, could I ask the source?

Hep -

Oil of cloves

The Rest -

I really like that close today. Seems the work that needed doing was done Thursday with the fill-o-the gap. A thousand contracts were waiting below 5.60 Thursday, another 1000 right before the close today. I believe that in a couple weeks, maybe a month, we will find that Dubba - Dubba - Dubba - Yoo - BEEEEeee was a buyer. I love this silver - zinc fuel cell thingie. This story should be worth 40 cents next week. The nice thing about it is it does not effect the short term outlook for PGMs as this technology is years away from practical application. Silver up, Platinum up, Palladium up, Screw gold ( sorry about the sacrilege )

Bob M
(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:25 - ID#26059)
Dow 12000 by 2000...up, up and away..a few stumbles along the way..but the masses are their buying on every the song goes "you aint seen nothing yet"

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:26 - ID#210235)
It's a hoot all right! Vague and bad writing. But who cares? It passes the time while we wait to see whether the metals group ( great leading indicator ) points to further deflation or possible inflation again. Until then, it's really been about analysing our group and individual response to vaguary in the absence of nice, hard data. Boy, would I like to have a scope into that black box that is the FED, the IMF, etc.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:33 - ID#342282)
Drudge report
Anybody got a URL? Lost mine. Thanx

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:33 - ID#210235)
Thanks for a great few days of posts. Wanted to send gushers out, but thought better for it. JTF, Donald, Mike ( alchemy, you told all! ) Studio, Ted, Where have you been T1? Bernatz, very funny, Nick, Aurator, Auric. Hamlet. Forgive me whom I have not mentioned. Time to go argue with the daughter about no sleepover and put the laundry into the dryer. NO NO, I mean time to go out dancing! Really.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:34 - ID#426220)

How does the worn-cliche go..." THE MOST VALUABLE ARE IN SMALL PACKAGES... or something like that

Well, I call to your attention what most impressed me in the 15,000 words I read on the Internet today - spoken right here at Kitco IN JUST A VERY FEW WORDS:

"Date: Fri Mar 20 1998 19:19
Suspicious ( Buffett / Watch what he does, not what he says ! ) ID#287312:
Forget what buffett says, watch what he's doing.
Moving out of stocks into Precious Metals."

Gentlemen, Mr. Buffett made more than $30 BILLION speculating in the markets.... Does this not say something to us...? Anyone needing even
MORE confirmation that precious metals is the way to go, really should
NOT be in the markets. AND, he never speaks in riddles like a "ANOTHER," who I believe could never reach knee-level to a BUFFETT! Buffett says it strait... like he sees it - no nebulous riddles that might have 3-4 interpretations --- just plain talk.

My Money will always be on COMMON-SENSE PLAIN TALK --- which is why I prefer Will Rogers humor to the so-called more sophisticated "English Humour."

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:36 - ID#210235)
Drudge is

Now, bye. really.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:38 - ID#411259)
..... Sixth Period Psyc .....

Prometheus -
Was just struck by the thought that ANOTHER's post originate from a high school psychology class studying the effects of wild prognostications on an Internet discussion group. Very few here get an A+.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:39 - ID#269245)
To ALL - Thanks for a great week - good night!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:44 - ID#42365)
micheal haga

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:47 - ID#57232)
EURO and 'Internal and External reserves'
clone: I am no financial guru, but what I think they are is the following, and no one has corrected me:

If one is to go from many currencies, to a single currency, there must be a transition phase of several years where both exist -- namely the EURO, and the currencies of all the countries that are members of the european monetary unit. Each of these countries now have currency and gold reserves. When the EURO goes 'live' on 1/1/99, it will also require currency and gold reserves, presumably kept at the european central bank -- most likely led by a German -- I would guess -- though Delphi thinks Dutch.

The external reserves are the ( new ) currency and gold reserves of the EURO.

The internal reserves are the ( old ) currency and gold reserves of the individual countries that are members of the european common market, and participants in the EURO. Eventually the internal reserves will be eliminated, but only after complete conversion of member currencies to the EURO, a process that would occur years after 1/1/99.

Hope this helps!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:52 - ID#238422)
How are "internal reserves" going to be eliminated?
What is your understanding of the technique of this

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:56 - ID#28994)
Supply & Demand
There are some on this forum who have the uncompromising ability to compress the greatest amount of words into the least amount of be continued.

(Fri Mar 20 1998 21:57 - ID#252391)
Checking out for the weekend
It's been a tough one this week past, but at least with a positive end relative to the comeback rally in Silver. Glad I held on and didn't get shaken out for a change. It'll be interesting if the rally holds and can be sustained. Two days up in a row would be great. Suppose the battery story will bring in some new longs on Monday - we'll see if they get scalped.

Most interesting thing to me remains the decline in COMEX stocks to near all time lows - to say nothing of the extremn backwardization of the futures prices - now that is bullish!!!

(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:04 - ID#267298)
Get on the bandwagon

In order to get GOLD a movin, I think we Goldbugs need to change
our perspective. Yup, we have to become DOWBUGS. Thats right,
get on the bandwagon, talk up the Dow, preach it from the rooftops,
drive that sucker up up up, right out of sight. The way I see it,
eventually, GOLD and GOLD stocks will be the only damn thing
left that many will be able to afford and then we're off to the races.

GO GOLD ( and Dow ? )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:07 - ID#411112)
Hi guys? just got back ,had some adult beverage,here's a question for yoall?

I get the impression that all who post here,are average middle class white guys from various points on the planet,I could be wrong,it's just something I would like to know,and are there members of the fair sex present.....if not lets call Tim Allen because then it's just cool guy stuff ....

(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:07 - ID#426220)

Will Rogers:
"The more you read and observe about this Politics thing, you got to admit that each party is worse than the other. The one that's out always looks the best."

Will Rogers:
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else."

Will Rogers:
"You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new

Will Rogers:
"Half our life is spent trying to find something to do with the time we have rushed through life
trying to save."

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock."

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"Even if you"re on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects."

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"I'm not a real movie star. I've still got the same wife I started out with twenty-eight years

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"Politics is applesauce."

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you."

Will Rogers ( 1879-1935 ) :
"This country has come to feel the same when Congress is in session as when the baby gets
hold of a hammer."

Will Rogers:
"On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world
that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does."

Will Rogers:
"I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts."

Will Rogers:
"We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by."

Will Rogers:
"An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."

Will Rogers:
"Nothing you can't spell will ever work."

Will Rogers:
"The income tax has made liars out of more Americans than golf."

Will Rogers, to his niece on seeing the Venus de Milo:
"See what will happen if you don't stop biting your fingernails?"

Will Rogers:
"Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate; now what's going to happen to us with both
a Senate and a House?"

Will Rogers:
"Our constitution protects aliens, drunks and U.S. Senators."

Will Rogers:
"The movies are the only business where you can go out front and applaud yourself."

Will Rogers:
"The more you observe politics, the more you've got to admit that each party is worse than
the other."

John B__A
(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:11 - ID#211105)
Gold Swap Rates
Aren't these numbers bullish for gold or don't I understand? Thanks,

March 20, 1998
London Interbank Gold Lending Rates

AP-Dow Jones News Service

( Swaps vs. U.S. Dlrs, previous day's in brackets )
1 Mo 3.71 pc ( 3.69 pc )
2 Mo 3.70 pc ( 3.69 pc )
3 Mo 3.69 pc ( 3.70 pc )
6 Mo 3.71 pc ( 3.71 pc )
1 Yr 3.67 pc ( 3.69 pc )

(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:12 - ID#60253)
I hope all persons could see the new true nature of the Central Banks this week. I call it The change that did happen! If you read the post of Sat. Mar 07 1998 13:08 Another, that was written for me, it speaks of it all. The banks do want gold to rise now, and they will pull in physical gold to replace leases, even if they must pay high on the market. They do not rollover these loans now.

It was never the intent, for gold to fall from $320 / $360 range. The fall happened as the paper gold market is out of control! As physical is brought back into this range, much will be done to hold LBMA together. We watch togeather, yes?

Also, see the post of Fri. Jan 23 1998 18:03 Another. There was offered the intent of crude oil going to $12.00 US range. That price was found this week. Hear me, twelve dollar oil does not want or need gold under $320, I know!

Also, I am shown how many persons did understand my last post. These same may not agree, but they do understand the intent of THOUGHTS. I do understand the ways of ones who are hot against my writings. This is good, as proof is never found in the agreement of all persons, and it is so, that this justice is found not only in my home but my country!

I will offer a post on Sat. 21 if possible. I wish to converse on Kitco with Mr. Allen ( USA ) and Mr. Markus sometime in the future, if I may. It would be as thinking for all.

thank you

(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:14 - ID#252127)
The Europeans

In Europe you have indivigual cultures with firmly developed roots.

If later down the line political pressure is exerted by one country that dictates what another should do with its reserves -or whatever- all hell should bust loose.

I wonder how the Belgian populace has reacted to this and previous sales. We never hear about European reactions, or are they not important. The newspaper "THE EUROPEAN" once outspoken on continental issues got quiet. Hmmmmmm.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:25 - ID#261352)
@ Mike Sheller 19:36...Will you translate"In the Ground"...Thank You

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:31 - ID#261352)
@ question posed before...Do trade wars loomon the horizon and will they be
the trigger to a market top as in 1929 via Smoot Hawley ( sp? ) ?

(Fri Mar 20 1998 22:34 - ID#224149)
And here we go again
Ted  Your buddy is back --- bring out the flaxseed oil and garlic great for killing toxins.