Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:00 - ID#287358)
Mike Sheller,
I also miss you.

All: Mike posted a great "disclaimer" a while back. Can anyone
re-post it, or tell me where to find it? Thanks

(Thu May 21 1998 00:03 - ID#373284)
Have any of you seen this link with a ton of mining companies listed?

(Thu May 21 1998 00:04 - ID#347235)
Continuation, hit wrong Key
3.John Foster Dulles
4.Henry Kissinger, very intelligent but too European in outlook
5 Al Haig very smart but prone to say the worng things on TV 20 Mar 1980
comes to mind! I'm in Charge, he was very missunderstood my the media and they crucified him, given time he would probably been one of the best.
6. Ed Muskie stupidity ran amuck
7.Warren Christopher leemp recardo as they say South of the Border, completely ineffective in all his efforts for the State Dept. 1980 was the chief negotiator for freeing the hostages. I rest my case here.
8. Maddy Alldyke Stupid, Arrogan, Does not know when to shut up.

I forgot Christian Herter but has was only SecState for a few months after dulles died, no real effect on foreign policy as interim.
Enough now more later.

8. Maddy Alldyke stupid,arrogant,completely out of control

(Thu May 21 1998 00:05 - ID#287358)
16 to 1
I saw a television feature showing the Sixteen to One mine. I cannot
find a symbol or listing for it. I want info about it, and will probably

Can anyone help ?

(Thu May 21 1998 00:06 - ID#373284)
ChasAbar - try this to look for Mike Sheller posts.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:12 - ID#287223)
TOL: thanks...missed it.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:12 - ID#347235)
Sorry hit wrong button to continue
3.John Foster Dulles
4. Henry Kissinger, very intelligent but too European in out look
5. Al Haig, could have been very good but said the wrong things on TV6
6. Ed Muskie DUMB
7. Warren Christoher, LeemP Ricardo as the say S of the Border
8. Ricahrd Rogers Doesn't count Henry was running him as NSA
Maddy enough said

(Thu May 21 1998 00:13 - ID#286230)
Tyro (Canada & Taco Bell
One way to keep the mob out is to limit gambling. Asking a skill testing question changes the Tac Bell promotion to a contest and not gambling. A way around the law is to asked a quiz--like What is one and one? Strange but it helps keep the streets safe ( er ) .

(Thu May 21 1998 00:14 - ID#347235)
Sorry for double post, unententional, had trouble with my server thought first one didnt take, sorry about spelling I spell better than I type.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:15 - ID#247190)
To all re:crash update

I am sure this url has been posted before, but I've never seen it this low in all the time I've checked it. It has always been +8, +6, +4 and I've even seen an occasional +2 But never zero.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:17 - ID#22956)
I got filled this a.m. on my spreads and naked calls ( bought 'em ) ....and I put in ANOTHER order as prices came down toward the end of close.......and got filled AGAIN ( ! ) bargain prices.....I am now shin-to-knee-deep in silver.....uh huh..... ( how else do I offset my plat losses? ) .......... ( ouch ) .........

Now, what did I do with my peanut butter cookies and cereal boxes and baywatch......................I is a 'murican ya' know........howdy y'all.............yuk-yuk ( said in my best Deputy-Dog accent ) . And where's the beef!.... ( ? ) live my life like a beer commercial.......and bash other I can.......uh huh.


poorboys - I hope that BiG lizard thumps you on the head so you SNAp out of it............... ( holy mackeral ) ....what's gotten into you????

go silver......ohmy. ( note to kitco: EB went it's safe to sell hell out-o-the-market...... )

(Thu May 21 1998 00:20 - ID#401460)
Palladium market:

Wednesday May 20, 11:50 pm Eastern Time

Palladium market damage "irreparable?" - LPPM

``The long-term damage to palladium may already be irreparable. Already there's much increased talk of substitution by cheaper alternatives,'' said Trevor Pitts, PGMs marketing manager at Standard bank and chairman of the London Platinum and Palladium Market ( LPPM ) .


(Thu May 21 1998 00:22 - ID#22956)
what in the hell is going on with plat.......(??!?)
damn stuff.

away......with my profits....... ( ugh ) .


(Thu May 21 1998 00:24 - ID#286230)
Sorry Allen can't stay awake. Hoping to read your post tomorrow morning.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:25 - ID#373284)
It was posted yesterday...

(Thu May 21 1998 00:27 - ID#347235)
Before someone with a better memory than mine points out George C. Marshall Who was in secession Chief Of Staff US Atmy, SecState Sec Def.
I think he was long past his prime after the Army or he could have been a great one.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:27 - ID#286230)
OOps I"ll go take a second look. Is there an explanation for Palladium yesterday too?

(Thu May 21 1998 00:27 - ID#287358)
Tol 1
Thanks for the tip, but it went nowhere. I think it is no longer active.

Any other ideas where I can find Mike Sheller's "disclaimer?"

(Thu May 21 1998 00:28 - ID#347235)
sorry Sucession!!!

(Thu May 21 1998 00:29 - ID#373284)
Selby in case you missed it.
Allen ( USA ) ( Post and Run, Passages ) ID#255190:
Copyright  1998 Allen ( USA ) /Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
A few suggestions: 1 ) If you wish to discuss these passages please let's do that via Email and not on this site ( ) , 2 ) Let's not be inconsiderate to others here by thrashing theological issues here, its just not the place for it, 3 ) I will post these scripture passages only once here. After that let's do Email so as to not clutter up Kitco.

Isaiah 9:18-19
Isaiah 5 ( all )
Proverbs 27:12
Genesis 13:2
Leviticus 13 ( all )
Isaiah 47 ( all )
Isaiah 13 ( all )
Ezekial 9:4
Jeremiah 13 ( all )
Psalms 78:13 ( In response to asking why judgement tarries )
Isaiah 57:13
Proverbs 28:13
Jeremiah 44:20-30
Isaiah 24 ( all )
Job 26:12
Jeremiah 44:26-28 ( more specific citation )
Psalms 73 ( all )
Isaiah 28:18-22
Psalms 27:4-8
Ezekial 22:23-31
Psalms 78:13 ( repeated citation )
Psalms 58 ( all )
Dueteronomy 28:37-42
Psalms 81:11-16

Well I can't count very well since there are 24 here. Typical me. Bring these before God as well as your own souls. He is gracious and merciful beyond measure. He will answer the truly open heart.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:30 - ID#20137)
So you we talking about these crazy palladium markets...
FutureSource May 20 th 15:09. Note the disclaimer in the header.


Updating Latest Spot Metal Market Prices

-- Note: Due to satellite technical difficulties this
report was unavailable this morning. This is the updated
report for this afternoon. --

Prices do not necessarily represent prices at which
transactions have actually incurred.

Aluminum, New York Merchants, 99.7% pure ingots
66.00-67.00 cents per pound.

Antimony, merchant, refined in alloy,
$0.91-1.05 lb.

Copper, electrolytic wirebars,
89.80 cents per pound.
Scrap wire No. 2 N.Y. 63.00 cents per pound.

Lead, common, corroding 45.21 cent per pound

Magnesium, 99.8%, ingot
180.00 c-lb.

Manganese, 99.7%, boxed regular
115.00-117.00 c-lb.

Mercury, $180.00-195.00 76-lb. flask.

Nickel, briquettes delivered to customers,
$3.60-3.65 per pound.

Palladium, N.Y. dealer -
$425.00 per troy ounce.

Platinum, soft, 99.5 fine, producer
$388.00-391.00 dealer-approx.
per troy ounce.

Steel, No. 1 heavy melting Philadelphia scrap -
$128.00-130.00 per ton.

Titanium, aircraft quality, 8 1/8 inch round rotating
billet, f.o.b. shipping point
$5.00-6.00 lbs.,
domestic sponge 99.3%, domestic and imported duty-paid
$4.25-4.50 lb.

Tungsten ore $45.00-55.00 per ton.

Zinc, special high grade,
U.S. 51.95-52.70 c-lb.

Zinc, prime western,
U.S. 51.70-52.70 c-lb.

variety of factors behind today's sharp decline in
platinum and palladium futures here.
Some pointed to profit taking, particularly in
palladium, after the sharp run-up in prices lately.
One analyst cited reports that Russia set export
tariffs, seen as one more step toward the resumption of
shipments of the platinum group metals out of the country.
Still another contact cited unverified rumors Russia might
have actually shipped its first metal since late last year.
Gold and silver, meanwhile, managed gains for the day,
leaving the precious metals complex mixed.
Palladium futures started out the session sharply
lower, with two traders saying the move was linked to the
overnight fall on the Tokyo Commodity Exchange, which was
because of profit taking.
After the New York Mercantile Exchange close, one New
York market watcher cited profit taking there, as well.
"There's no news and nothing from Russia or anything
like that," he said. "I just think it's a combination of
profit taking, and of course the margins are being
increased. I think there is some long liquidation going on.
"A lot of ( market participants ) have very significant
profit levels, so I think it's a good time to take those
profits. And a thin market where it has been so one-way
recently, this correction--although it's big--you can't say
it's that unexpected," he said.
June palladium had shot from a low of $306.60 on May 12
to a high of $419 on Monday.
Meanwhile, Tim Evans, senior commodity analyst with
Pegasus Econometrics, said renewed supplies of Russian metal
may have come one step closer to reality after reports
saying the Russian government has set tariff rates on
"It's another step toward moving things along," he
said. "I think we're still waiting to see if that translates
directly into metal movement, but at least it's not going to
get held up at the border."
Still another trade source said there are some
unverified rumors among dealers that the Russians may have
shipped some metal.
"We're hearing rumors flying heavy that the Russians
have shipped," he said. "But we haven't been able to confirm
it. Anyone's guess is good for now until we hear what's
going on."
He did note the rumors came out after the metals were
already moving lower.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:31 - ID#373284)
Can you tell me a little more than "disclaimer" so I might remember it.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:34 - ID#286230)
Ok thanks for the help.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:37 - ID#388209)
Why are you so rock solid on July Silver vs. say Dec. ?



(Thu May 21 1998 00:45 - ID#190411)
As a cadet in a military school in the late 60's, I was priveledged to hear General Al Haig speak to our school. I remind you that this was the time of the consuming of the US by riot, drugs, debt, devaluation.
Then head of NATO, Gen. Haig gave the most indecipherable hogwash speach ( k ) that I, or anyone had ever heard. Noone ( k ) that I knew, or any of our instructors could make any headway in analysing his monologue.
At that time, I vowed that I would never go to his command in Europe.
I think that you give him far too much credit.
There is a gold angle here too.
My guess is that most of my fellow goldbugs out there were shaped by the deterioration of the dollar during Al Haig's term as head of NATO.
The fabulous republicrat party destroyed the reserve status of the USD.
The yuppies and later have never seen an inflation, or, a bear market.
I ask you to recall the news in '69-'74 when the primary financial information was the POG.
I bet that most of us here are old farts. Old farts are often correct.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:53 - ID#262242)
Wisdom & the peace that defies all understanding
Thank you Allen for the passages. God Bless You read my bible

(Thu May 21 1998 00:53 - ID#210235)
Thank you for posting your links. Good move, have folks make a little effort if they want to share your vision. You are one inspired dude. Hats off.

(Thu May 21 1998 00:55 - ID#20137)
Note the interesting differences with volumes of folks taking delivery on silver contracts this month as compared with last month ( around this same time ) . How did Warren get all that silver-he took delivery when everyone else was selling. Wonder if we are seeing a second round of massive depletion of the silver stocks???

5,808 contracts of silver = 29,040,000 ounces. At $5.25 per ounce = $152.460.000.00

Well, no one thought it was occurring the last time either.

I am still of the mind that a goodly number of the contracts for April gold delivery are still waiting to get their gold??? Again this is the method Warren used earlier this summer/fall and no one noticed until that law suite drove Warren and company out into the open.


May 19th 1998

FWN: 081332 GMT

COMEX Delivery Notices for Today

Fimat Futures Usa, Inc. 138 Goldman Sachs & Co. 1
Carr Futures Inc. 22 Prudential Securities Inc. 16
E.D.&F. Man International 58 Deutsche Morgan Grenfell 1
Refco, Inc. 13 Fimat Futures Usa, Inc. 57
Klein & Co. Futures, Inc. 37 Cargill Investor Services 1
Merrill Lynch Futures, Inc 17 E.D.&F. Man International 2
Triland Usa Inc. 57 Refco, Inc. 2
TOTAL 342 Gerald Metals, Inc. 52
-- Sterling Commodities Corp. 1
-- Credit Lyonnais Rouse 177
-- Klein & Co. Futures, Inc. 4
-- Merrill Lynch Futures, Inc. 1
-- Triland Usa Inc. 16
-- MG London Inc. 11
-- TOTAL 342

Aig Clearing Corporation 68 Lind-Waldock & Company 2
Merrill Lynch Futures, Inc. 4 The Bank of Nova Scotia 67
TOTAL 72 Pioneer Futures, Inc. 3
-- TOTAL 72


-- -- -- -- TOTAL DELIVERY NOTICES -- -- --
SO FAR FOR MAY 7,500 5,808 5


April 16th 1998

FWN: 081010 GMT

COMEX Delivery Notices for Today

Aig Clearing Corporation 2 Fimat Futures Usa, Inc. 2
Fimat Futures Usa, Inc. 7 E.D.&F. Man International 2
Carr Futures Inc. 1 Gerald Metals, Inc. 1
E.D.&F. Man International 9 Credit Lyonnais Rouse ( usa ) 12
Klein & Co. Futures, Inc. 1 Klein & Co. Futures, Inc. 3

Goldman Sachs & Co. 13 Republic N.Y. Securities 13

Aig Clearing Corporation 3 Aig Clearing Corporation 12
Goldman Sachs & Co. 11 Prudential Securities Inc. 1
TOTAL 14 Republic N.Y.Securities 1
-- TOTAL 14

-- -- -- -- TOTAL DELIVERY NOTICES -- -- --
SO FAR FOR April 4,773 61 4,080

(Thu May 21 1998 00:58 - ID#290118)
Mozel - most people ARE helpless {or stupid}. That's how we got in this PICKLE!
Tyro - Yep. Part of town is called Capitol Hill. Another part is called Chicken Hill - after Chicken Bill. In 1878 he tried bringing fresh chickens over Mosquito Pass to exchange for GOLD. He miscalculated and got stuck overnight on the pass. You could say he pioneered in fresh frozen poultry!

RB_A Thanks. Sometimes I feel I'm just chattering into the wind. Stuck all alone up in a tree - with hungry, rabid dogs waiting for me to miss a branch. I do like dropping pine cones on them though. Drives them NUTS! {;- )

(Thu May 21 1998 01:03 - ID#284255)
Neutron - Tar Baby
I am not here for the race
That is unimportant.
To share knowledge is the goal I seek.
It matters not, who found what
But that the information is presented here at Kitco

Kudos to Kitco and Bart
Kudos to us many Kitcoites.
This is where credit goes.
I went to the other site
Where Another resides now?
To me this is not the same person.
The lilt and the linguistics are not of the one person.

End of story
The kudos goes to Kitco
For here the intellect resides

Asian indices are coming to an important pivot point.
Failure here is ominous.
A relief rally can be expected
Before the downward trend continues.

Are their problems getting solved?
Or are there economies sinking deeper?

Has Indonesia cured its problems?
But turning to the next crony.

No it is the same as before,
And worsening,
As the IMF pulls out.

(Thu May 21 1998 01:04 - ID#215379)
Old farts ?
I like the word Old Geezers better...

(Thu May 21 1998 01:07 - ID#342376)
@ ChasAbar
The Mike Sheller disclaimer was posted to make light of Murrstein's accusations. I don't know if that helps much.

(Thu May 21 1998 01:09 - ID#20137)

Look at those copper stocks, both LBMA and COMEX stocks are dropping. Someone sure seems to want this commodity - the last time it was Japan. Who is it this time???




Gold 46,000
Silver 12,000
H.G. Copper 9,000

-- ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Net. Adjust- Total
Chg. ment Today

-432,827 0 36,990,800
237,440 0 53,662,796
-195,387 0 90,653,596

FWN: 154144 GMT

COMEX Gold Warehouse Stocks

warehouse stocks:
-- GOLD ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Prev. Received Net. Adjust- Total
Total Withdrawn Chg. ment Today
636,926 0 0 0 0 636,926
316,608 8,407 0 8,407 0 325,015
953,534 8,407 0 8,407 0 961,941

Warehouse stocks:

Copper - high-grade cathodes ( in short tons )
point previous received withdrawn net chg total

Total 93,447 0 1,647 -1,647 91,800

firmer so far here this morning, as some players cover
short positions.
The July futures have traded as high as 77.45 cents so
far this morning. Although they have come down more than a
penny from that level, they remain nearly a penny above
where they left off on Tuesday.
"In a word, it's short covering," said one trader.
Another commented that the July futures have retreated
from their highs on profit taking, however.
Some sources said there are no fresh fundamental
influences behind the rise, while others said warehouse
stock declines may have been providing some support.
London Metal Exchange authorities reported this morning
that warehouse stocks of copper fell 1,500 metric tons,
leaving the total at 270,650. This comes after a decline of
1,788 short tons was reported in COMEX stocks on Tuesday,
following the close of pit trade, leaving the total there at
93,447 short tons.
Three-months copper in London is currently up $32 at
One dealer put very near-term support at $1,700, with
resistance at $1,710. Another contact put support at $1,680,
with resistance at $1,720.
Support was placed at Tuesday's low of 73.70 cents.
Contacts put resistance around 77.30 to 77.50 cents.

(Thu May 21 1998 01:26 - ID#153102)
Arf ! Arf !
So, you drag out an example of trial and error. That's exactly why people ain't helpless critters. They try; they fail; they learn or don't; but they endure.

The reason so many people seem to be helpless and stupid today is because the whole gol darned System is working night and day to make them in debt, dependant, and illegal. The Bank, the Welfare Department, and the Attorneys thrive on manipulating the human fodder for Baal.

You know, I have hardly any use for clergy and none for Public Law that enforces the private conscience of some onto the people as a whole. Just who do some think they are making it illegal for me to consume whatever pleases me ? Or open my doors for business. Or invent and sell anything. ( All are equal in the Animal Farm, but some are more equal than others. ) The health, military-industrial, and welfare socialists are punishing anyone whose conscience disagrees with theirs just as the Church did in former times. But, it's all the same crap.

Let people be free to live their lives, Squirrel, without fear of the social police and you will be amazed how well they do. Everything in your life which increases your comfort and enjoyment of your days on earth was produced by free people, most of them Americans. For centuries mankind wallowed from pillar to post hardly making any progress toward a better physical life. And in a scant couple of hundred years Americans invented the modern world. There's nothing else to account for this astounding development except freedom for the people you say are helpless and stupid. Well, they aren't. And it's folly to say they are.

(Thu May 21 1998 01:29 - ID#22956)
Mike Sheller Disclaimer
There is one on Sep 09, 1997 at 12:59 but I can't seem to go back that far.....

I will find an earlier date or we can wait until Mike Posts it.



John Disney__A
(Thu May 21 1998 01:35 - ID#24135)
Re Your 01:26
Brother Mozel
Hear Hear ..

(Thu May 21 1998 01:46 - ID#233199)
Mozel re: your 1:26

..and to prove we are not stupid, we will find a way to prevent those who would dump mercury ( or some such ) in our ground water without infringing on on our freedom to fail; and suceed too of course.

Beets me how though.

Any ideas .... ??

(Thu May 21 1998 01:49 - ID#153102)
@Brother John
Just warming up.

John B__A
(Thu May 21 1998 01:50 - ID#17470)
Nikkei up 2% on this news
Suharto to resign Thursday - palace source
Reuters, Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 22:03
JAKARTA, May 21 ( Reuters ) - President Suharto will resign on Thursday after 32 years in power, a presidential palace source said. The source, who has been reliable in the past, said Vice President Jusuf Habibie was likely to take over, but added that may change.

Earlier Environment Minister Juwono Sudarsono said there was infighting between supporters of Habibie and his critics about who should take over.

John B__A
(Thu May 21 1998 01:56 - ID#17470)
Silver vs Gold
Silver has one thing going for it that gold does not - APH is recommending it.

Gold feels like its being stabilized at 300 until the European central bank makes a decision on what percent gold will play in its reserves. G'night

John Disney__A
(Thu May 21 1998 02:01 - ID#24135)
DDeeps repayment of loan to Rangy..
crazytimes ..

is good for rangy. I covered this item

maybe a month ago. In December 1997, Rangy

agreed that Deeps repay a debt to rangy in

the form of Deeps stock .. Thing was deeps

was trading about 7 to 8 rands at the time

and that will be be basis for repayment.

Obvious good deal as deeps now trades almost

twice that price. I hold both rangy and deeps

so I dont care. Despite this I cant see Rangy

moving up now till good news comes from Mali

which will be July end earliest. ( but then

Im wrong a lot Murrstein ) .

Only stories from Mali now are from

beer drinking analysts in Joburg some of

whom have never seen a tree. They speak of

snakes mud human sacrifice witch doctors

giant apes named KONG and prehistoric

beasts. One day they will be overheard by

a journalist. Stories will then appear in the

press. Next someone on Kitco will post it.

This is by way of a preemptive strike.

(Thu May 21 1998 02:01 - ID#153102)
"Find a way to prevent" ?

Try this. When a man undertakes, he assumes the risk. If what he undertakes harms another or another's property, the wrongdoer must pay for the damages. By these common-law rules, you have liberty under law. You are free, but also responsible for the consequences of your exercise of freedom. It's by Public Law to serve the interests of some that most wrongdoing escapes justice.

But, if just to prevent is your aim, making the whole place a prison with Public Law will prevent most everything except crime.

(Thu May 21 1998 02:08 - ID#347235)
If you were in College in 68-69 you dont really qualify as an ol' faht. But you seem to have a pretty good grip on history. I agree that Al Haig very often used a poor choic of words that utrned many people off. However I knew him both in Viet Nam and at SHAPE and when you could speak with him privately he was much more sensable and easy to understand
he really was much smarter than most people realize because of his fondness for making up many of his own words and style of speaking. He really had one of the best minds in our government in the last 40 years. one just had to figure out what he really was trying to say. 20 Mar 80 comes to mind when he was trying to reassure people that the govt was still functioning after Reagan got shot. Poor choice of words. Too bad you never spent time with him.

(Thu May 21 1998 02:27 - ID#340344)
Thanks, guys. Yes, Sheller posted the disclaimer as a result of the
Murrstein post. I just don't know where ( when ) to look for it.

It was really good. If we can get it posted again, I'm sure some
folks will appreciate it.

(Thu May 21 1998 02:31 - ID#190411)
Truth be told, it wasn't college, it was a secondary school. Perhaps he felt that he was just fulfilling a duty to speak.
My real point was about the origin of many goldbugs happened about that time. I was very young, but it is something learned that will always stay with me, and with many older than I, because we lived through that period.
I did sympathise wih Midas's rant of two days ago. He gave every good reason why gold should go up. It didn't, and it won't, until the derivative fiasco plays out.
The collapse of debt paper as currency, will test all, but we will emerge a freer country and world.

good night good friends.

(Thu May 21 1998 02:32 - ID#153102)
But, how to get the NON-THEORETICAL FLOURIDE out of the water when government requires me to drink it by Public Law, I do not know how to do.

Any ideas ?

(Thu May 21 1998 02:45 - ID#347235)
Also another point, Haig didn't becom a General until 1971, or assume command in Europe until late 1974, it sometimes takes me a few minutes to think of these things.

(Thu May 21 1998 02:54 - ID#153102)
@The Collapse of Debt Paper as Currency
It won't happen by itself. The Federal Government, Federal Reserve System, and IMF/World Bank can invent more credit indefinitely. The price of it will be higher taxes to pay the usury.

If only one State in this Union pulled out of the New Deal debt currency schemes and repealed the State laws that circumvented the Constitution so the State could collect taxes in greenbacks and spend greenbacks, the collapse of Debt Paper as Currency would be assured. The Supreme Court will not force a State to accept greenback benefits from the Federal Government. It has been clear on that. But, if a State does accept greenback benefits from the Federal Government, it must pay the piper. The Treason to the Constitution is in the State Legislatures. Every individual in America is in the same position as a State insofar as accepting benefits in greenbacks. If you enter an agreement, you pay the piper more lately known as The Bank.

John Disney__A
(Thu May 21 1998 03:04 - ID#24135)
For Ray
Can you give me a reference for the DDeeps find of
a very deep solid gold vein that you mentioned earlier ??
Is this the fabled deposit said to be guarded by three
fire breathing subterranean dragons ??

(Thu May 21 1998 03:19 - ID#20167)
Chas Abar, Sixteen to One Mine
The actual name is "Original Sixteen to One". It is traded
on the Pacific Stock Exch. under the symbol OAU.
It is one of the historic mines in Northern Calif. dating back
to the California gold rush.
Their address is: P.O. Box 1621
Alleghany, Ca. 95910
Tel 530-287-3223
@ yahoo financial site, if you enter the symbol a price quote
is not given, but there is a new article listed about the

Another interesting gold mining co. in that area is Brush
Creek Mining, Nasdaq: bcmdd they own or operate 9 historic
mines in the same area and also control 4000 acres of
dimondiferous ground near La Porte, Ca. Check it out.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:30 - ID#284255)
FOCUS-Indonesia has no alternative to IMF
TOKYO, May 21 ( Reuters ) - The International Monetary Fund has come under fire for making a bad situation worse in Indonesia but analysts say Jakarta has little alternative to reliance on the fund, no matter who rules the troubled nation.
``Even a new government won't blame the IMF because they are going to need IMF support, and lots of it,''
``It all depends on the economic situation. If there is is no improvement in the economic situation and the IMF will not release the funds, then it will be very difficult no matter who comes up,''
``We will be moving quickly in close collaboration with the IMF to restart operations as soon as we have a sense of the emerging players here,''
``At times when the economy is in recession there is always the risk of social unrest, and the risk that that will spill into political instability for countries like Korea and even Thailand can't be ruled out,''
``The strength of South Korea and Thailand is that they basically have governments in power that people have a certain degree of confidence in, and there is an agreed mechanism by which these governments can be held accountable,''
SKorea '98 GDP contraction seen worse than 1.0 pct
``Given sharply falling private consumption and facilities investment, there's no doubt economic growth this year will be worse than earlier projected,''
FOCUS-BOJ says economic cycle turning negative
``Production, incomes and expenditure are showing negative interactions with each other,'' the report said. ``The economy remains stagnant and strong downward pressures continue.''
``In order for the Japanese economy to resume a self-sustained recovery, improvements in corporate and household confidence are vital.''
``After the elections, at this point I expect an increase in liquidity injections. I don't expect a rate cut, but you never know. Weirder things have happened.''

(Thu May 21 1998 03:33 - ID#284255)
World Bank ready to resume Indonesian operations
``The first thing this new government needs to do is to put in place an extremely credible and highly technically competent cabinet,''
Suharto exit seen unlikely to impact metals trade
PERTH, May 21 ( Reuters ) - The political upheaval in Indonesia was unlikely to have any immediate impact on the country's flow of metal commodities, industry analysts said on Thursday following the resignation of Indonesian president Suharto.

``There has been a reasonable amount of selling of metal coming out of Indonesia because the Indonesians are anxious to get their hands on foreign currency, but actually buying material is a lot tougher because they are still having trouble raising LCs ( letters of credit ) ,'' said Rob Nachum, managing director of Australia-based Minalysis.

During the social and economic crisis is Indonesia which led to Suhart's resignation, exports of U.S. dollar-denominated base metals and gold were largely unchanged, Nachum said.

Lacking credit in some instances, cash received from exports has been immediately utilised to secure fresh supplies of raw materials, such as old batteries and other forms of metal extractables for recycling operations, metals dealers said.

"It's very much cash in, cash out," one said.

Indonesia's big national and international mining and smelting companies have been largely unaffected by last week's street killings in some major cities, with production levels maintained throughout the turmoil.

The giant Grasberg copper mine in the island province of Irian Jaya was reported last week by its owner, the PT Freeport Indonesia unit of Freeport McMoran Copper and ( FCX - news ) , to being operating smoothly.

Similarly, mine and smelter operations of PT International Nickel Indonesia ( INCO.JK ) in Saroako, central Sulawesi, and tin output at the the world's largest producing company, PT Tambang Timah ( TINS.JK ) , were unaffected, both companies said this week. The country also mines coal for local and export markets.

``Metals prices have hardly reacted to Suharto's resignation,'' a London Metal Exchange dealer said.

In late trading in Australia, three-month copper was trading down about US$3 from overnight levels at US$1,686 a tonne.

Three-month nickel was unchanged at US$4,850 a tonne.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:35 - ID#284255)
Property prices cannot fall much more -Cheung Kong
Suharto departure scant relief for Asian markets
But currencies were little changed and share dealers said any initial euphoria had been soured by the realisation that Suharto's successor, sworn in immediately, was former vice-president Jusuf Habibie -- a man known for quirky economic theory
``The situation is extremely fluid. We don't think this is the end of the road yet for Indonesia's crisis.''
``The office of the president has been diminished appreciably because the people were able to force Suharto out,''
``None of the problems have been solved. The next six months for Indonesia was going to be a disaster anyway, and now the ability to make unpopular but necessary decisions has been removed.''

(Thu May 21 1998 03:38 - ID#284255)
`This task is similar to removing the oxygen mask from brain dead patients'
S.Korean banks, 64 groups agree on debt reduction
Banks have said they will classify companies according to their chances of survival by the end of the month. Credits to companies deemed to have little chance of survival would be cut off, banks have said.
``By ailing corporations, I mean those who cannot report a profit in a normal business environment, for example, of 10 to 12 percent interest rates,''
``Adequate provisions for the banks will be required for the loans to the not-so-viable corporations. Thereby the banks can easily cut losses by terminating credit to any non-viable entities,''
``This task is similar to removing the oxygen mask from brain dead patients, and will save oxygen for the sound companies,''
``Emergency liquidity will be provided by the Bank of Korea when a severe liquidity shortage takes place in the wake of accelerated restructuring,''

(Thu May 21 1998 03:40 - ID#153102)
@Liquidity Injections
Where do these phrase makers come from ? Liquidity Injections is precisely the bon mot to describe plastic surgery for banks.

Indonesia is a mystery. Not just because of the magicians there either. Gold, oil, coal, rice, and who knows what else and the country is broke.
Something is very wrong with this picture.

Perhaps it is just so simple as all the wealth was sucked to the top by taxes and monopolies.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:40 - ID#386279)
XGO update
The XGO is the Aussie gold share index. I watch it closely. The XGO corrected down to its lower ( upward ) trend line today. If it heads on up from here, it will make an almost perfect parallel channel. Despite the fact that gold has been slowly rising the past two days, the XGO has been correcting sharply, almost as if that trend line was a magnet. I expect it to start heading up tomorrow. The price of gold has just touched 300. When gold gets over the 300 brick wall and stays on the positive side, the XGO will head for the upper line of its channel. All IMHO.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:41 - ID#284255)
Corporates spill beans on bug fixes - "Watch out for your mining company's"
Two firms go public over millennium

Global mining company Rio Tinto revealed last week that it may shut down some of its mines and plants to shield them from the millennium bomb, writes Dan Sabbagh.

At the companys annual general meeting last Wednesday, chief executive Leon Davis told shareholders that Rio Tinto would spend at least $65 million on the bug fix. But, he added, this figure could rise if local utility suppliers suffer their own Y2K failures.

We are also looking at stopping some of our operations before the critical midnight, and then bringing them back on a planned basis after the year 2000, he said.

The company denied that its plans are related to the high proportion of its operations located in the third world.

The disclosure of Rio Tintos Y2K plans were followed last Friday by details of Norwich Unions efforts. Chairman George Paul revealed that the insurer expects to spend 35 million to achieve compliance.

So-called critical systems between 90 and 95% of the companys it infrastructure will be compliant by October 1998, he said. The remainder have a target date of mid-1999.

Programme manager Roger Goshawk told Computing that Norwich Unions Y2K problem should be relatively easy to solve because for several dates, weve been using an internal date formatting method that can hold dates back to 1850.
Y2K has the potential to shut down lots of mining company's.
Is your company y2k proof.
Is its suppliers?
Or its buyers?

Buyer beware.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:47 - ID#284255)
The Y2k bug could mean the sack - someone is getting worried?
Chief executive officers of State Government agencies have been put on notice that their jobs are on the line unless they come up with a year 2000 computer bug risk analysis by the end of June.
You know any of these guys?
They live near you.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:50 - ID#233199)
@ Sharefin - Thank you for splitting the URL

.....unfortunately it is temporarily out of order - or so it said.

Hey look! $ 300 Gold. Get it while you can...

(Thu May 21 1998 03:53 - ID#233199)
Global mining company Rio Tinto revealed last week that it may shut down some of its mines and plant
How about the Gold derivative short sale bomb?!

(Thu May 21 1998 03:54 - ID#284255)
Heres the OZ gold index for you to run your ruler over.

(Thu May 21 1998 03:59 - ID#284255)
It should work I have just been there.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:01 - ID#284255)
Shop early for doomsday
"Theyll come at night especially if youve got an electric lamp glowing somewhere, a dead giveaway," warned one member of an online survivalist conference.

"Ive got an order in on a 500 gallon water tank," explained another, "Ill give you the URL."

"Wont a tank that large be visible from the road?" asked the first.

"No. Ill be keeping it underground."

(Thu May 21 1998 04:05 - ID#233199)

I have too few good ideas, alas!

It would seem prudent however to be most careful with what might cause the most irrevocable damage ( ..plutonium and mercury poisoning of ground water etc.. ) The question is what is more damaging: loss of freedom or loss poisoned earth.

Any ideas?

Maye we should ask Solomon.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:08 - ID#240288)
EURO Hologram Missing!

Just read that the hologram to be used in the EURO to prevent counterfeiting is missing. Was being transported in an Air France plane and presumed to be stolen.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:16 - ID#386279)
G'day Sharefin
Thanks for XGO chart. That one from two days ago and slightly different scale from the one I use--but gives everyone a rough idea.

Asian banks aren't looking crash-hot, mate ( pun intended ) . I shouldn't make fun of the amount of misery that portends. You are getting to me mate. I put one of my highrise apartments on the block today. Gonna cash up!! cheers, N.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:17 - ID#153102)
The suspense over Y2K occasioned by your posts is starting to wear on my nerves. All I can say is it better not be a disappointment.

I'm not sure what Allen's Verses mean. I may actually seek light on the matter. But, my feverish brain says The Bank will be functioning if nothing else is. It must. It's more important to the government than The People.

It will be surprising if the electric grid is not triaged into operation at some level of functionality. And dialing a phone call local for as long as the power holds is not a huge technical challenge. But, getting the billing right will be a stumbling block, I think. That's where The Bank comes in. Liquidity Injections.

Planes will still fly. So parts can be distributed. If there are no telephone switches working, point to point lines can be used for communications to work on restoring a critical service. There are an incredible amount of resources and resourceful people in America. But, if government gets involved, things may never get repaired. Truly. It's ironic that probably the greatest danger looms from the institution established to protect.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:18 - ID#284255)
Suppliers push 'wrapping' systems to deal with euro
"Bank of banks" to tackle millennium bug problem
The Bank for International Settlements ( BIS ) , dubbed the "Central Bank of Central Banks", said Wednesday it had set up a joint council to tackle the problem of the "millennium bug" in computers.
"The council intends to meet regularly and has agreed on a range of initiatives to ensure a high level of attention on the year 2000 computer challenge within the global financial supervisory community, to share information on regulatory and supervisory strategies and approaches, to discuss possible contingency measures and to serve as a point of contact with national and international private sector initiatives,"

(Thu May 21 1998 04:28 - ID#153102)
If Statists like you prevail, you are going to kill us all, but only after we've been imprisoned and tormented. The only plutonium polluter I know of is the USG.

I think flouride causes irrevocable damage to me. And your communique reads like a broken record. Maybe brain damage from flouride.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:42 - ID#284255)
You only have to read between the lines to grasp the ammount of disruption Y2k will bring upon us all.

Authorities are showing a lot more concern.
Companies are starting to admit they have problems.

What are they going to be saying in six months time?

On a global scale everything that functions around us in society,
Relies on the continuation of the current networks.

I see these networks to be totally at risk.
The complexity of all these neural networks
Will be reduced to individual survival.
Total fragmentation of current systems.

I can't see how the banks will be able to run temporarily.

Who knows how deep the problems will run?
How long the effects will last?
But to my eye the's going to be lots of chaos.
More than most can even imagine.

You don't need to read the bible to realise what is coming.
But you may well need it to get you through the trying times.

Just think.
GM doesn't forcast a $500 million fix-it bill,
For a minor headache.
And it has only spent 8% of its expected budget so far.
Seems like they have admitted major problems.

My biggest fear is embedded chips and continuation of the power supply.
These 2 items have the ability to send our civilisation back 100 years.

(Thu May 21 1998 04:45 - ID#153102)
@Pranks On Y2K Marauders
During hard times ( or when they were just feeling wicked ) , people on the coast used to tie a lantern on a Nag and lead it down the coast. Ships mistook the light for that of another vessel and grounded. The natives got the salvage.

Lanterns on the necks of loose horses would similarly confuse light seeking marauders. Perhaps a stock of helium would be wise. Launching flashlights could wear them out running to and fro. I suspect survivalist thinking could become obsessive.

(Thu May 21 1998 05:06 - ID#287312)
Y2K, 19 months ? not quite !
The devastating effects of Y2K will begin when the general public decides to get a jump on the general public in preparing.

(Thu May 21 1998 05:09 - ID#153102)
Network breakdown will mean people will return to living like they did before netwrks.

Unlike some, I think this is going to get enormous publicity because of its entertainment and suspense value. Sells media. So, people are going to at least have food. So, I think then they will socialize and start to solve problems. Marauders are nothing impossible to deal with. Hell, there was wild Indians hunting people in the woods and raiding settlements when my forefathers set foot on this continent. Stockade.

Electricity is not essential to life. Or to civilized life. Neither are telephones and computers and cars. Y2K will disrupt the lives of the elite. Economists will have a lot of time to speculate on what went wrong. Attorneys will probably just go insane.

(Thu May 21 1998 05:24 - ID#230376)
Effects of why too kay...

will start to be known this October when 40 of the States go fiscal. I believe 99 is a temporary shut down code, is it not? If true, the ignorent will quickly be alerted by the media. We have only four ( 4 ) months left to prepare else get in the way of a stampede of people and shortages.

(Thu May 21 1998 05:53 - ID#411331)
@ALL: If Y2K effects are too negative the gov't of the United states will
activate FEMA. If some of you have not heard of this quaint piece of legislation/organization, check it out. If this thing is activated, there will be a mass emigration from the "land of the free" to Russia or china, except they won't let you.

(Thu May 21 1998 06:08 - ID#411331)
@all: Does anyone have a URL of the DOW plotted over the past 5 years. I went to a
conference for brokers yesterday, and the speaker ( David Smith ) states that the major support level for the dow is defined as a line drawn from the 8000 point low to the 8500 point low. He is going short selectively if the DOW breaks this support level.

(Thu May 21 1998 06:19 - ID#411331)
@ALL: If you want to read a summary of info gleamed from the conference, I posted it
on this forum at 15:26 yesterday.

(Thu May 21 1998 06:19 - ID#30116)
This one is a little longer than five years...

(Thu May 21 1998 06:20 - ID#255217)
Y2K a trigger?
Y2K. You know, I sometimes wonder if we all MIGHT be overreacting to the prospect of societal disruption by Y2K. At least in terms of magnitude. What if Y2K comes and there are only a few minor disruptions in services that are quickly corrected and within six months or so everything returns to normal? A few years hence and Y2K would only be a forgotten ripple. People might even laugh when they think back and recall Y2K as a famous non-event.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I don't really think that senario will fly, because there is just too much evidence to the contrary, But it never hurts to try to maintain a sense of balance and perspective. Perhaps it will be even worse than we now anticipate. Mebbe Y2K and 666 are synonymous. Could it be that Y2K will be the trigger event that precipitates the decline into social chaos and economic disaster that some ( many? ) have anticipated for years?

To most of us the Great Depression is only a chapter in the history of the United States that we know about because the history books say so. But the Great Depression was REAL It REALLY happened and there was much suffering and pain to a great many people during those years.

We live in ( relatively ) easy times now and it has been so for many years. So easy for a lot of us that we sometimes forget just how bad things can get ( and have been in the past ) . A much younger generation exists now that has no conception of a reality that exists for them only in the history books. They may be in for a rough awakening in the not too distant future that history was real when it occurred and that life IS real and not always pleasant.

(Thu May 21 1998 06:28 - ID#411331)
@panda: Thank you. In studying the graph of the DOW, I noticed that there are no lows
at 8000 and 8500, so maybe David Smith meant to say "peaks" at 8000 and
8500. The trouble here is that there is no peak at 8500. The DOW blew right through that level a month ago. Back to the drawing boards.

John Disney__A
(Thu May 21 1998 06:32 - ID#24135)
I left early..
.. to avoid the rush ...

Mike Sheller
(Thu May 21 1998 06:38 - ID#347447)
The Sheller Disclaimer
Hi gang! My first morning back at Kitco for a long while ( sorry friends, life has a way of tugging you away from the net now and then ) and I note interest, nay - demand- for my disclaimer. Here it is. All are welcome to tailor to your own requirements:

NOTE: The thoughts and analyses expressed in this post are speculation. The reader must choose how much of the material presented herein should be used to apply to his/her own personal market activities. Any comments, predictions, or speculations concerning companies, investments, or investment markets are for research and educational purposes and may be subject to error. Past patterns and occurences in financial markets, whether in relation to astrology or any other form of analysis or strategy, may not always be reliable indicators of future activity. Readers are advised of the potential risk of capital loss in any uninsured investment, including stocks, bonds, gold bullion, futures, and other investment vehicles. Even paper money issued by lawfully constituted governments, including the Treasury of the United States of America, carries no guarantee that its purchasing power and relative value will remain intact and not erode over time. Information contained in this post may have been gathered from many sources, believed to be reliable, but no guarantee can be made as to the accuracy of such information. The issuer of this post is not a dealer or broker in investments, neither stocks, bonds, gold, or other investments. The issuer of this post may have a position in the securities, commodities, or investments mentioned. The issuer of this post presents the material herein as proprietary opinion and research and is not acting in any investment advisory capacity. Readers are advised to consult with their own personal or corporate sources of financial or market counsel. All choices made by readers of this post based on the information contained herein are the responsibility of the reader. It is the right of every person in a free society to use the information presented herein as they best see fit.

(Thu May 21 1998 06:51 - ID#341189)
What next in Indonesia? Watch the rupiah.

(Thu May 21 1998 06:54 - ID#365216)
thanks Argent for last y2k post
You encapsulate nicely words useful to both the sceptic and the
believer that Y2K could have devastating effects. I plan to print it
out and send it to a friend I care about. Thanks again.

That is all.

Your General

Bully Beef
(Thu May 21 1998 06:55 - ID#259261)
Sheller...That's what we call a tail light guarantee.

When I see the tailights of your Beemer the guarantee is over.

(Thu May 21 1998 07:00 - ID#341189)
Mike Sheller, OK, I understand, but now
Tell me what to do. : )

(Thu May 21 1998 07:02 - ID#26793)
Indonesia; this is the worst possible scenario

(Thu May 21 1998 07:06 - ID#26793)
So. Korean economy contracts sharply; worst since 1980

(Thu May 21 1998 07:06 - ID#253246)
Mike Sheller PAASF & the stars

I looked up the dates when PAASF was incorporated and the original
name Pan American Energy Coroporation was incorporated on
March 7, 1979 in Victoria, British Columbia. The name change to
Pan American Silver Corp. was on April 11, 1995 in Victoria BC.

I know you have been busy and would appreciate if you could
share the scope on PAASF thanks

(Thu May 21 1998 07:15 - ID#26793)
Glamis Gold news

(Thu May 21 1998 07:20 - ID#26793)
Pan American Silver news.

Bully Beef
(Thu May 21 1998 07:21 - ID#259261)
There should be laws regulating the lenders in those third world countries.
If first world banks hadn't let them get into debt so far they wouldn't be in this mess. Then the IMF jumps in and dictates oppressive policies to them which cause the riots that we see. It is a simple case of the carpet bagger. Now we rob them blind with their currency so cheap. They pollute their land, sell out their children and murder each other to get enough money to buy a transistor radio. This is a free market? Free to work for pennies or free to starve. I fear Canada is wrong sometimes in it's support of Cuban dictator Castro. I have been to Cuba and love it. But the people are so poor. Yet they aren't starting out way in debt and when those people get bbit by the paper green bug they are going to make apile of money. Believe me they know how.

(Thu May 21 1998 07:22 - ID#227109)
chunks of the 'net down?

Seems as though CBS Market Watch is 'problems'. Hmmmm, I guess Galaxy IV does matter....

Mike Sheller
(Thu May 21 1998 07:24 - ID#347447)
Bufford, Carl, Bully Beef
Bufford: will run out a chart and take a look. Thanks for the date.

Carl: If I knew what to do I wouldn't need a disclaimer ( ;- )

Bully Beef: No way, I drive a battered Daytona.

(Thu May 21 1998 07:25 - ID#341189)
Bully Beef
The law that should be in effect for bank lending are: if make unwise loans, you lose your ass.

(Thu May 21 1998 07:46 - ID#412172)
Thanks for the reply on the XAU/AU ratio ( got it right this time ) back on the 19th. I was not entirley clear on what you were posting by hand, the XAU/AU? You do not do a DOW ratio to AU or XAU anymore? A thousand pardons for my late response, my net time has been limited lately.

(Thu May 21 1998 07:47 - ID#248180)
Gold a Store of Wealth Pays Koreans Debts - from FT London
Commodities 

GOLD: Koreans shake market
By Kenneth Gooding
Patriotic South Koreans played havoc with the gold market in the first quarter by giving 228 tonnes of the metal to their government to help pay off some of the country's debts.

About 3.5m Koreans responded to the "Save the Nation" gold collection schemes after their country was caught up in the Asian economic turmoil.

One quarter of all households supplied some gold - an average of 65 grams each, or just over 2 ounces - mostly in high-quality jewellery.

Indonesians also added to the gold market's woes by selling a net 64 tonnes, sometimes to buy necessities after the value of their domestic currency collapsed.

Others were tempted to take profits as the domestic price of gold soared.

Indonesian jewellers were also hastily cutting back stocks.

The unprecedented sales in the two countries cut gold demand in the first quarter by 55 per cent to 342.1 tonnes or 11m troy ounces, according to the World Gold Council, a promotional organisation financed by some big producers.

The Council, which monitors 21 countries accounting for about 80 per cent of global demand, said it was the first significant fall in gold consumption since it launched its survey in 1992.

George Milling-Stanley, the Council's manager of gold market analysis, said the once in a lifetime Korean scheme ended in March and the trends were positive for gold again.

In the first quarter, India re-emphasised its role as the world's biggest gold consuming nation, taking a record 190.7 tonnes, 17 per cent above the total for the same months of 1997.

Mr Milling-Stanley said sales were boosted by the government's further deregulation of the gold market and a smaller price premium in India compared with the international dollar price.

There were also record quarterly gold sales in the US, where they were up by 10 per cent to 88.1 tonnes.

Jewellery sales surged in tandem with the US economy, and gold coin purchases jumped by 66 per cent, as some investors saw them as a good bet when the gold price in dollar terms fell to an 18-year low.

(Thu May 21 1998 07:55 - ID#248180)
STING of the Century- Screwed Citizens
S/Koreans & Indonesians for having given up their Gold. A Pity.
They did not know what had hit them. Pity.

(Thu May 21 1998 08:16 - ID#289357)
Fibonacci Time Chart for XAU

(Thu May 21 1998 08:17 - ID#218389)
You got it. Multiple personalities are spawning like rabbits.

(Thu May 21 1998 08:26 - ID#289357)
XAU forecaster

My reading of the XAU from these charts is Short and Intermediate-term oversold, Long-term near-overbought. Looking for a turn soon.....hopefully up!

(Thu May 21 1998 08:27 - ID#26793)
Hi Roebear. Yes indeed; I still do the Dow/Gold Ratio. It closed yesterday at 30.66 ounces. Just divide the Dow by the spot price of gold. I have a chart back to 1903 but can only send it to your postal address. Just e.mail me and it will go out today;

(Thu May 21 1998 08:39 - ID#289357)
XAU chart
Stochastics extremely oversold; momentum turning up; Bollinger bands narrowing for an upcoming move.....

(Thu May 21 1998 08:46 - ID#256254)
To: +Richard Harmon ( 11984 )
From: +Giraffe
Thursday, May 21 1998 8:06AM ET
Reply # of 11985

Gold Watch
Veneroso Associates
May 21,1998 Issue 05.04

The Gold Market
"Never sell a quiet market short"
The Gold Market is Not Just Quiet, It Is Completely Silent
A Precursor Of A Major Upmove?

The technical position in the gold market is intriguing.
The overall price pattern is constructive. There are
positive noises coming from the big dealers. Yet, sentiment
on the part of market participants has become one of
avoidance, indifference,neglect and despair.

* The Comex open interest is 154,467. This is almost as low
as it gets. In the last three days it dropped 5,095
contracts. In the "new era", gold is viewed as a relic from
a bygone era. It is as though gold as a subject has fallen
off the edge of the earth.
* The American Stock Exchange had a conference recently
for the Amex listed gold companies. Only five showed up to
give presentations. The Amex has not yet given us the number
of investors or brokers who showed up, but attendance was
sparse. By one account, excluding staff from the presenting
companies, there may have been only a dozen attendees versus
one hundred a year ago.
* Ango Gold is the largest gold company is the world. It is
the result of a merger between two giant producers - Anglo
American and Gold Fields. It accounts for more than 10% of
global mine supply. Even at today's depressed gold share
prices, it has a market cap in the billions. The merger is
complete. The new company will be listed on the NYSE. A debut
luncheon was held for top management to tell their story. Six
people showed up. One was our own representative - John
Brimelow. It is our guess that the total money under
management by the attendees was less than $100 million.
* From the World Gold Council, the market got very bearish
global demand numbers for Q198. Yet, the market took it in
stride and closed slightly higher. We will deal with this WGC
gold demand survey in a forthcoming Gold Watch.
* We have a huge pennant formation building. Formations such
as this often result in big price moves
* The market is having trouble above $300. The big central
bank gorilla is still feeding out its final tranche of supply.
* All of these considerations and anecdotal evidence are
consistent with our belief that a massive six month base is
near completion. As soon as the big gorilla finishes
this last tranche of selling, the market should move up, and
maybe sharply at first, just when everyone has lost
interest in this market.

(Thu May 21 1998 08:47 - ID#432157)
Comments on the following-Accurate ?????Pie in the Sky ????
Gold Watch
Veneroso Associates
May 21,1998 Issue 05.04

The Gold Market
"Never sell a quiet market short"
The Gold Market is Not Just Quiet, It Is Completely Silent
A Precursor Of A Major Upmove?

The technical position in the gold market is intriguing.
The overall price pattern is constructive. There are
positive noises coming from the big dealers. Yet, sentiment
on the part of market participants has become one of
avoidance, indifference,neglect and despair.

* The Comex open interest is 154,467. This is almost as low
as it gets. In the last three days it dropped 5,095
contracts. In the "new era", gold is viewed as a relic from
a bygone era. It is as though gold as a subject has fallen
off the edge of the earth.
* The American Stock Exchange had a conference recently
for the Amex listed gold companies. Only five showed up to
give presentations. The Amex has not yet given us the number
of investors or brokers who showed up, but attendance was
sparse. By one account, excluding staff from the presenting
companies, there may have been only a dozen attendees versus
one hundred a year ago.
* Ango Gold is the largest gold company is the world. It is
the result of a merger between two giant producers - Anglo
American and Gold Fields. It accounts for more than 10% of
global mine supply. Even at today's depressed gold share
prices, it has a market cap in the billions. The merger is
complete. The new company will be listed on the NYSE. A debut
luncheon was held for top management to tell their story. Six
people showed up. One was our own representative - John
Brimelow. It is our guess that the total money under
management by the attendees was less than $100 million.
* From the World Gold Council, the market got very bearish
global demand numbers for Q198. Yet, the market took it in
stride and closed slightly higher. We will deal with this WGC
gold demand survey in a forthcoming Gold Watch.
* We have a huge pennant formation building. Formations such
as this often result in big price moves
* The market is having trouble above $300. The big central
bank gorilla is still feeding out its final tranche of supply.
* All of these considerations and anecdotal evidence are
consistent with our belief that a massive six month base is
near completion. As soon as the big gorilla finishes
this last tranche of selling, the market should move up, and
maybe sharply at first, just when everyone has lost
interest in this market.

(Thu May 21 1998 09:05 - ID#289357)

Your article indicates gold is the ultimate Contrarian play - as a Contrarian, and with the evidence in the XAU charts posted below, I have to agree and to be ( cautiously ) bullish here. The next few days should prove the direction of the market; as Preacher says, we are at a critical junction. If wave 3 shows, it should be a whopper.

This is not investment advice - just my opinion.

(Thu May 21 1998 09:06 - ID#223146)
Korean Gold

Read your news clip on 228 tonnes of gold collected from 3.5 million people. If my math is correct that translates into an avg 65 grams/person. This might be of interest to determine how much gold is in private hands. Adjustments for cultural differences aside what does the group think.

The Hermit
(Thu May 21 1998 09:07 - ID#369247)
@ Allen(USA)
Your posts of: Wed May 20 1998 14:04 ( Only months to prepare ) and Wed May 20 1998 21:29 ( Scripture Passages ) are greatly appreciated. Indeed, the times ahead of us will be a test of our faith. I have learned much from your deep insights on the Y2k problem and Kitco's on-going study of the precious metals. I do thank you Sir from the bottom of my heart.

Very Respectfully,

The Hermit

(Thu May 21 1998 09:17 - ID#36156)
Morning Gold/Silver up again... Another late session drop ahead?
Place your bets!

(Thu May 21 1998 09:30 - ID#289357)
Charts for the clear plastic ruler up-trend test

(Thu May 21 1998 09:32 - ID#317193)
I think your July platinum is real close to a buy @$378. Maybe even at it's present level. Just a guess.


(Thu May 21 1998 09:39 - ID#373284)
Mile Sheller - ah ha....the reason some of the emails have not gotten to you is
because your ISP cannot deal with the amount of transfer. I will halve them and resend. With fingers crossed. On one hand at least, can't let go of the tequila bottle...

Gusto Oro
(Thu May 21 1998 09:50 - ID#377235)

Silver demand expected up 2.7% this year. Supply/demand shortfall in '98 expected to be 198 million oz once again. --AG

(Thu May 21 1998 09:56 - ID#254269)
High Priced Cyberinvesting
Went to a seminar at a local hotel last night about how to use the internet to make a squillion dollars. Well, last night was a " preview"
for a two day seminar to be held at another local hotel in 2 weeks time.
The seminar in 2 weeks will be 16 hours over a weekend and is being offered for the bargain price of $3,995 per person BUT for another $995,
you can take a spouse. The seminar is about using techincal analysis to
trade options, covered calls, etc.
Just a little out of my league for right now.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:00 - ID#254269)
Computer programmers; was talking with one of the attendees after the seminar
last night and this guy is a Commercial photographer, BUT used to be a computer programmer and he is familiar with Fortran. He was telling me that he recently had a call from a headhunter asking if he knew COBOL. Apparently, the headhunter is looking for Cobol programmers for Y2K; salary being offered for Cobol programmers was $96,000 plus benefits.
This guy was also saying that almost 20% of the high tech jobs in Dallas are going unfilled.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:00 - ID#57232)
Mine beats yours!
Mike Sheller: I think I know what a Beemer is. My best car is a '56 Imperial, obtained for nothing because it didn't work -- drove over 110k miles with it. Proabably worth 2k, but runs great! AC now works after I found a truck AC place 10 years back -- the unit is big enough to cool an entire trailer - 18 wheeler size. 18 mpg on the superhighway. But kind of big for in town driving. Newest car the 'real boss' drives -- 80's Toyota.

I am very interested in what you seen in the stars for BC now that the House, defense department, Secret Service, and members of the Justice Department are after him. Also I put some of the family fortune ( ha! ) into PAASF -- so I ( and others here ) would be very intested in what you think about their future too!

(Thu May 21 1998 10:02 - ID#266110)
@Hermit 09:07 --- RE: Allen's posts / If you liked it then check out...
Yesterday's other post @21:29. I know that Allen doesn't want to make a big deal about it, but the second post completes his thought and is worth a printout for additional followup.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:03 - ID#373284)
Lock&Load - o'tay, here is some news on TNX, decipher if you would. Namaste'

(Thu May 21 1998 10:06 - ID#254269)
South Korea adds $35.5 Billion to Bailout fund for banks; article in WSJ
Page A8.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:08 - ID#20748)
From Veneroso
Gold Watch
Veneroso Associates
May 21,1998 Issue 05.04

The Gold Market
"Never sell a quiet market short"
The Gold Market is Not Just Quiet, It Is Completely Silent
A Precursor Of A Major Upmove?

The technical position in the gold market is intriguing.
The overall price pattern is constructive. There are
positive noises coming from the big dealers. Yet, sentiment
on the part of market participants has become one of
avoidance, indifference,neglect and despair.

* The Comex open interest is 154,467. This is almost as low
as it gets. In the last three days it dropped 5,095
contracts. In the "new era", gold is viewed as a relic from
a bygone era. It is as though gold as a subject has fallen
off the edge of the earth.
* The American Stock Exchange had a conference recently
for the Amex listed gold companies. Only five showed up to
give presentations. The Amex has not yet given us the number
of investors or brokers who showed up, but attendance was
sparse. By one account, excluding staff from the presenting
companies, there may have been only a dozen attendees versus
one hundred a year ago.
* Ango Gold is the largest gold company is the world. It is
the result of a merger between two giant producers - Anglo
American and Gold Fields. It accounts for more than 10% of
global mine supply. Even at today's depressed gold share
prices, it has a market cap in the billions. The merger is
complete. The new company will be listed on the NYSE. A debut
luncheon was held for top management to tell their story. Six
people showed up. One was our own representative - John
Brimelow. It is our guess that the total money under
management by the attendees was less than $100 million.
* From the World Gold Council, the market got very bearish
global demand numbers for Q198. Yet, the market took it in
stride and closed slightly higher. We will deal with this WGC
gold demand survey in a forthcoming Gold Watch.
* We have a huge pennant formation building. Formations such
as this often result in big price moves
* The market is having trouble above $300. The big central
bank gorilla is still feeding out its final tranche of supply.
* All of these considerations and anecdotal evidence are
consistent with our belief that a massive six month base is
near completion. As soon as the big gorilla finishes
this last tranche of selling, the market should move up, and
maybe sharply at first, just when everyone has lost
interest in this market.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:10 - ID#57232)
Avalon: That cyberinvesting course looks like a great money maker for the promoter! Just keep logging into this site -- and watch the actions of our specialists: APH,Cyclist,Oldman, RJ and EB ( not necessarily in that order ) . Why pay someone else who probably does seminars because he can't make money investing?

(Thu May 21 1998 10:14 - ID#228100)
Cyber Seminars
Rhody -- These are only two links that I have for the DJIA.
1. 10 Year Dow Jones Industrial Average ( I cant figure out if this guy is a genius or a nut ) :
2. 1 Year Dow Jones Industrial Average:^DJI&d=1y

Avalon -- Thanks for the seminar info. Ive seen those things advertised, and wondered what they were about. For $3,995 they probably have some folks that tell you to go to Kitco ( and other web sites ) to learn what the real experts are saying. If they really had those technical analysis skills, theyd be out making money rather than selling seats in hotel seminars! ( If you know anyone with any experience/training in Cobol, send me an email: . If they dont mind travelling, they can make more than 96k! My wife has a friend thats a social worker, making about $25k. Rather than pursuing her masters, Im trying to get her to take a course or two in Cobol! )

(Thu May 21 1998 10:21 - ID#342315)
Need a URL for Standard Charter Bank. Mine flew off. Thanx

(Thu May 21 1998 10:23 - ID#254269)
Cyber Seminars; some more useless information. The room was set up for about forty
people but there were only about 17 or so there last night. But, in 3
days, they put on 6 of their "previews" in the local Dallas area.
If you signed up on the spot, they would discount the price to $2,995.
When I go to anything like that, I always leave my wallet at home.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:24 - ID#20748)
JTF 10:00
Not the Justice Department. Janet Reno has been the biggest FOB eversince the mass media started demonizing her. Did you see her picture on the cover of the NY Times magazine a few months ago ?

For her latest act of friendship take a look at the Drudge Report.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:30 - ID#36156)
chas - I found this, but the server must be down... try it later.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:30 - ID#254269)
JTF; thanks for words of encouragement re technical analysis. I am doing some
reading about it as time permits. I totally enjoy this site.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:32 - ID#238295)
NJ: thanks again for posting the Venneroso fax! I too am convinced the next najor move will be up, but a final spike lower would not be surprising. Gold stocks and bullion up jest modestly today despite a sharp drop in the greenback.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:40 - ID#266110)
@geoffs 08:47 & Silverbaron 09:05 -- Au Market ready to move?
Agreed with both posts ( in general ) . While I am not a major technician, I tend to follow some simple axioms:

1. Buying Bargains - Ag and Au are bargains ( when looking across the vast landscape of all investments and opportunities ) . Counterpoised at the other end of the spectrum are overpriced stocks with P/E ratios in the zillions. By the most simple of principles... if you buy the bargains, then you have a good chance of making money in the future. The only rub is, how long will it take for others to discover that these are bargains?
Usually, it is based on a shock from an outside source that shakes the confidence that people have in their current ways of investing and spending. When this happens, they hurriedly look around for a "safer" or better place to put their money.

2. PMS act as a store of wealth - Due to the inability to counterfeit, print as much as possible, or immediately dig PMs out the ground... their scarcity and important physical properities make them unique - and therefore, they have become the ultimate money. Even if the PMs drop in price, they will never go to zero. Paper money and paper assets will, but the PMs won't.

3. Value Investing - PMs offer the best value right now for those who are
wise enough to understand this. WB follows this axiom and it has served him well. I get the impression from him that it's not Coca Cola or Mackie-D that are the important factor, its whether they have latent or inherent value that is being overlooked by the masses. If so, then they are a good value. He doesn't care what the investment opportunity is. ( It just so happens that over the past 40 years, the stock moarket has done well and done fabulously over the past 6 years ) . But if horse manure had tremendous value, then WB would be investing in that. He doesn't care - and the value investor doesn't either.

4. Contrarian Investing - The pack dog mentality causes people to act as a mob. Right now they are mobbing the stock market and mutual funds. When the mob loads up in any kind of investmnet ( stocks ) or investment ( mutual funds ) , then it is time to move onto other pastures and follow the buffalo like the indians did. John Templeton said the following:

a. It is impossible to produce a superior performance unless you do something different from the majority.
b. The time of maximum pessimism is the BEST TIME TO BUY ( sounds like the PM market doesn't it ) .
c. In the stock [or any other] market, the only way to get a bargain is to buy what most investors are selling.
d. Too many investors focus on "outlook" and "trend". Therefore, more profit is made by focusing on value.
e. The time to sell is the time when you have found a much better bargain to replace it.

5. PMs as Insurance. The masses out there don't understand this principle yet. They're riding high on the Stock and Mutual Fund craze. There is no downside - nothing but blue skies - this is a new era of prosperity. ( And then at the other end of the spectrum ) . PMs are archaic - they are not a good investment - they tie up your capital...
If PMs don't make any sense at all, then why do the people who discount their importance have homeowner or car insurance, or insurance of any kind. Based upon their logic, you will never have anything bad happen.

SUMMARY - PMs serve a purpose. They are currently off the radar screen. But when the Stock Market Mania takes a jolt and drops 20+%, things will change. They might start changing before that. And I think that they're beginning to do so now. Look at COMEX and XAU charts. They tell the whole story. There's a bottom and it's beginning to fill-in to the upside.

(Thu May 21 1998 10:45 - ID#342315)
HenryD re SCB
Thanx, I'll stay on it, Charlie

(Thu May 21 1998 10:45 - ID#266110)
@tolerant1 10:03 --- RE: TNX / Thanks, I printed it out and will read

(Thu May 21 1998 10:47 - ID#373284)

(Thu May 21 1998 10:52 - ID#373284)
Meet IMFonesia's new leader - Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

(Thu May 21 1998 10:59 - ID#373284)
Whose side is the Coward Erect on?

(Thu May 21 1998 11:01 - ID#342315)
Silverbaron re Chart-08:16
This looks like a good guide for trading. Can you update or do we have to go to a service? Many thanx, Charlie

(Thu May 21 1998 11:05 - ID#340344)
Thanks for yet another great post.

PM -- Precious Metals -- Pessimism Maximus

(Thu May 21 1998 11:06 - ID#289357)
You can get Fibonacci charts from several pay - services, but this is the first one I've seen that is free. It appears to be a personal web site, with the URL

(Thu May 21 1998 11:09 - ID#254269)
Mutual Fund Closings set a record pace; article on page C1 of WSJ; so far this
year, more than 20 US m.f's have closed to new investors because of the torrent of money. Per article, stock funds attracted $24 B of new cash
in April and $3 B went into bond funds.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:12 - ID#288157)
Please Read This Paragraph Carefully....

European Commission--Agenda 2000
B. Criteria for Membership
2. Economic Criteria

Foreign currency reserves increased considerably since the introduction of the currency board. The basis was formed by THE RESTITUTION OF HISTORICAL GOLD RESERVES BY WESTERN CENTRAL BANKS IN 1991. At present levels, however, the reserves cover less than three months of imports.

( This is in reference to Estonia's 'membership )

(Thu May 21 1998 11:16 - ID#36977)
@Sequin, Mozel, Squirrel
Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply. Had to sleep.

Sequin: Thanks for the reply. Aha, a contest!

Mozel: To un-Fluoridate water, try a reverse-osmosis ( RO ) unit. Slow and expensive, but Fl is hard to remove.

Squirrel: I used to live there, but it was too cold and the winters too long. Getting a foot of snow on Independendence Day was too much. I moved back to the flatlands.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:22 - ID#280215)
NJ, All Re: Confusion about Veneroso comments
Preacher, APH, EB and other technical analysts: Could you comment on this. Thanks!

I read the Veneroso report and am a little confused at his technicals and what his ultimate conclusion is. On the one hand he advocates a strong up move coming with the quiet market and bearish tone.

However, in the next few sentences, he mentions the six month long base and a huge pennant formation. I looked at the Monthly, Weekly, and Daily Gold charts again. The only pennant formation I see is an upward skewed pennant that has been building from a huge down move. In any technical education/analysis I've ever seen or heard, this is actually a very bearish formation. I'm confused because he obviously knows his stuff but seems to be saying two different things.

The pennant itself may have more room to the upside based on Monthly and Daily indicators which show an upmove coming. We will probably get another upswing to complete the pennant ( shorter term ) . But if it is a pennant as he says, this usually indicates a strong move coming in the opposite direction ( downward ) longer term. Any comments??

(Thu May 21 1998 11:27 - ID#289357)
Tyro @ Fluoride removal
A common means of removing fluoride residue from chemical processes, is to dose the fluoride-containing solution with Calcium ion, which precipitates the fluoride as a very insoluble particle, CaF2.

The simplest/cheapest way to do this in a very dilute solution such as drinking water, is probably to use lime ( CaO ) or limestone ( CaCO3 ) in contact with the water, followed by filtration. Just passing the water through a bed of crushed limestone rock followed by a household water filter will probably do the trick.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:29 - ID#210235)
A bleak world view - hang onto your coffee cups.
BBC gold demand article - follow links on right to "Japan's Economy in Deep Downward Spiral". For more fun you can read "Euro's Bearish Bourses" and "IMF: Indonesia's Savior or Troublemaker?". Suharto has become the IMF's new poster boy. This fiasco has been so bad, and so well-publicized, expect some sort of restructuring to go on at the IMF - maybe even a new name and new management. Same greedy grabbers, though.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:33 - ID#57232)
Anti - Clinton people in Justice
NJ: I agree with you regarding Janet Reno. Either she has no integrity or the 'powers that be' have something on her -- or both. Perhaps because of her pending retirement and her Parkinson's -- she cannot afford to lose those generous medical benefits. I am thoroughly disappointed in her as the top legal figure in the land. Her Watergate counterparts stood head and shoulders over her, and what Nixon was accused of is child's play to what appears to have happened, just with the Chinagate investigation alone.

The Justice department individuals I referred to -- who want Clinton out -- were the 'named' sources for the top secret information leaked out in the Friday or Sunday New York Times bombshell. This is the first time I have actually seen names of anyone in the Justice department in relation to bad news for Clinton. The way I see it is that people like Janet Reno are not able to totally suppress the truth, and fortunately some individuals are now speaking out, like those 4 AFIP forensic experts who did or witnessed Ron Brown's autopsy.

The tide is slowly shifting, abeit a bit slowly. We must be patient -- there are some honest people left in the US.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:34 - ID#289357)

I agree with your assessment, at least for the XAU.

Short-to-intermediate term I think we go up, but when we get to overbought level on short, intermediate, and long-term indicators, that'll probably be the end of this move.

This is also what the INPATHIQUE chart was also showing at their last update - another move up, then a correction, then up again for the final top. Then down big time.

Just now we are near-overbought only on the long-term XAU chart, oversold on the shorter-term charts.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:39 - ID#36977)
Silverbaron @ Fluoride
True. I was thinking of something he could buy and install on his existing municipal-supply water system. The lime/limestone system would need to be regenerated or replaced periodically, and would be a pain to install/maintain, I think. RO units are pretty simple to install and use. All that said, your method is much simpler and cheaper. Thanx.

Kitco beware: two Chemical Engineers, both named Tom, are starting. Tom, maybe we'd better take this outside. ( tongue-in-cheek thingy )

(Thu May 21 1998 11:48 - ID#340344)
Original 16 to 1

Thank you for the 3:19 post. Much appreciated.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:48 - ID#252127)
Korean Gold Turn-in

3.5 million families or one head per household. Ten turn-in sites with say 5 desks. Say 70,000 people per desk and about 15 minutes per transaction; this equals 1,050,000 minutes, or 1,458 twelve hour days.

You can increase the number of desks and decrese the time per person and be hard pressed to equal 60 days the reputed time of the turn-in.

Just figure it, are we being told little white lies? Did the gold come from other sources?

Much gold has been reputed to have trans-shipped thru Korea in 96 and 97; maybe some never left and was just returned to the owners.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:56 - ID#25171)
Loosing more and more synapses in my old days: Which reply do you refer to?

(Thu May 21 1998 11:56 - ID#57232)
Pennant formation?
All: I am no techinical expert, and so I have been watching the responses of others to the Veneroso fax. Alas, I think we have to conclude that F Veneroso is not a technical expert, and is getting lousy advice if he has been asking for it. I beginning to think he is not the expert we think he is. Perhaps we should only take his advice on the big picture.

That brings up another point. He said that 'paper gold' was not a problem because the physical price of gold was within 25% of the price set by derivatives trading. I think he also said that COMEX is where the actual price of gold is set. We now know that COMEX is almost certainly just an empty facade, gold ( and silver? ) wise, and that the real action is in London or elsewhere. If he is getting bad advice on technical trading he could very well be getting bad advice on derivatives trading as well. Food for thought.

Always question your sources, and check for inconsistencies. No one person is likely to have access to all of the puzzle - especially with gold investing.

(Thu May 21 1998 11:56 - ID#26793)
@Mozel, SDRer; changes in existing contracts after EMU

(Thu May 21 1998 11:59 - ID#26793)
I presume they mean 3 months of currency reserves, not gold reserves???

(Thu May 21 1998 11:59 - ID#22956)
classic post from classic poster.........and stuff.
guess who this is sitting on the fence cheerleading..........i love it.......and i hate it too. I can pull a thousand posts that have the same sentences written just phrased differently. Cut and


I too am convinced the next najor move will be up, but a final

spike lower would not be surprising. Gold stocks and bullion up just modestly today despite a sharp drop in the



Classic Kitco.......yup. chuckle myself to tears


straddler - I don't see it either.....daily-weekly-monthly, nothin', nada, zilch. He must be looking at ANOTHER chart. I see choppy to flat market through '98.....sell ALL good rallies. Highs of '98 will not ( I repeat ) NOT exceed 340.......UH UH. Buy Plat. UH HUH.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:01 - ID#25171)
Did anybody ever try here to take physical delivery on COMEX as an individual ( not as a company trading GOLD ) ?

(Thu May 21 1998 12:04 - ID#373284)
Lawyers, the EURO and reality. Perhaps the regular folk will get screwed from
all the mumbo jumbo. Believe me there WILL be changes made for people that have private meetings with the "lawyers" and the details WILL be changed in the contracts/call them what you will, or else...of the preceeding I can assure you. I will leave it to each of you fine Gentlemen and Ladies to define "or else" each in your own manner.

The way to interact with thieves and liars has not changed at all since before time was supposedly measured. Zip, zero, nada.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:06 - ID#342315)
codeman re CLN
How about sending me your email. Some info not ready for sure. Thanx.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:12 - ID#373284)
EB frozen in an ice-cube of thought, created by his own mind. Gulp to ya. Brave!
 Highs of '98 will not ( I repeat ) NOT exceed 340.......

(Thu May 21 1998 12:12 - ID#342315)
AYORK re Brush Creek
I like BCMD too. I have a tf 888 272 7335- Lionel Gosselin. They have some good stuff going on. Another case of waiting to hear from geologist. Also have a website for 16-1. I'll dig it up shortly and post it. Some fantastic specimens and some fantastic prices as well, Charlie

(Thu May 21 1998 12:15 - ID#36977)
@ Sequin
Your post Re: Taco Bell and Canada and Math Skill Question

BTW there were two posters that did take delivery. It took them months, look in Jan / Feb time frame. Can't recall their handles. One started with a "T", I think. ///***Insert standard disclaimer here***///

(Thu May 21 1998 12:15 - ID#287277)
Yes, it is a bit 'murky' ( in true EU fashion ) ...
One is transfixed by "1991--historical gold reserves"...
need a BIT-OF-WORK on that! {:- ) ) BBML

(Thu May 21 1998 12:18 - ID#373284)
WorldNetDaily Exclusive
Loral's Schwartz considered for Pentagon chief Clinton brought up Schwartz on 3 occasions, say Republicans

Copyright 1998,
WASHINGTON -- Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson said yesterday that President Clinton on three different occasions considered Bernard Schwartz for the job of secretary of defense.

Schwartz was the top soft money donor to the Democrat Party in 1996. His company, Loral Space and Communications, is now under investigation for allegedly illegal transfers of missile-guidance technology to Communist China.

On Dec. 14, 1992, the Associated Press reported that Schwartz was one of five persons considered for the job of defense secretary, until former Representative Les Aspin received the appointment.

On Jan. 1, 1994, Jack Nelson of the Los Angeles Times reported that Schwartz was one of six top candidates considered for the job eventually given to Deputy Defense Secretary William Perry, Nicholson said.

Then, on Dec. 4, 1996, the Associated Press reported that Schwartz was under consideration for Pentagon chief to replace Perry.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:20 - ID#290118)
Mozel - Again you read into my post what is not there.
Some pine cones I drop draw attention {as per my post of 00:58}.
Re: your post of 01:26 re my posts on 5/20 at 19:10 & 19:26
I thought I made it clear in other posts. I am NOT a socialist, communal, bloodsucking liberal. Just because I have little or no tolerance for stupidity, ignorance and sheopleness does not mean I want to be a member of the custodial elite. But recognizing such behavioral traits ( and others ) permits me to make decisions as to who to put my trust in - who I want to have in a lifeboat with me. My major premise is that their helplessness and stupidity permits growth of a government ( ours and others ) that infringes on freedom and pursuit of happiness. Give the majority {and influential minorities} the ability to vote themselves bread, circuses, power and special priviledges and they will do so. Give the helpless and stupid the ability to live off the efforts of others and they will do so. In that respect they are not helpless - they have figured out how make us take care of them {a successful survival strategy as long as they do not kill the host or cause it enough damage that it removes them}. Most of us here are tired of being forced to be hosts.

The astounding growth and development of our species and our nation was made by a small percentage who strived for freedom, new ideas and the fruits those brought forth. That minority can and has been historically persecuted and purged and on occasion has fled elsewhere to start a new life. My question here and in previous posts is since there seems to be nowhere else to flee {space & other planets seem out of reach for now} then how do we make the best of where we are? How do we few rebuild after a major socio-political-financial-monetary "correction"?

Again I refer to John Galt's STRIKE in ATLAS SHRUGGED. Do we pick up our expertise, intellect, tools, GOLD & SILVER and retreat to some mountain valley as John et. al. did? Or can we somehow hold out where we are and, after the dust settles, REBUILD? How do we {Kitcoites and others} do this? Surviving the collapse is only chapter 1. Rebuilding {and adequate thought and preparation therefore} is the rest of the saga - or are we going to rely on government to take care of us afterwards as well?

(Thu May 21 1998 12:22 - ID#36977)
USA Gold Daily Market Report
has some very interesting Rothschild news. Click on Ad banner above, then Daily Market Report. I'll try to find the link to Reuters.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:23 - ID#25171)
Thanks for your reply.
However the mystery is getting deeper as , as senile as I might be becoming, I would bet my left B* that I never posted on that subject.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:26 - ID#20748)
The main thrust of Veneroso, and for that matter Martin Armstrong's, argument for the coming bull market in gold is that once the gold component of the EMU reserves is announced and all of the countries are in compliance with the criteria set up for membership, gold sales by the Euopean CBs will stop. Both of them are of the opinion that there are one or more CB sales going on even now, which have yet to be announced. Veneroso refers to that. Neither of them is a technician, so I am just as mystified as you are by the talk about the "pennant". There is no arguing with the fact that gold has been trading in a very tight range since March 23rd.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:29 - ID#22956)
write that one in STONE.....not Ice. Ice melts..... ( wink ) search for big bergs


(Thu May 21 1998 12:29 - ID#36977)
@Sequin @ Selby
Sequin: You're firing on all neurons. It was Selby. Sorry.

Selby: Thanks for reply. Previous posts to Sequin apply.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:30 - ID#342315)
tolerant1 re your 12:04 and 12:18
On the 12:04, you got that right. More than some are going to get screwed. Just like $US the Euro is a fake out. If you do get a fair shake on it, you have nothing better than the dollar. Even if the thing was solid gold, the laws and regs would tear up a bunch of law firms. On the 12:18, this is a matter of CYA. It looks like BC's strategy is falling apart. The bigger lie is now topheavy. You can sure tear up some arse. Thanx Charlie

(Thu May 21 1998 12:34 - ID#280215)
Kitco 2 Comedy Board
Since nothing was going on, I decided to lurk on Kitco 2. Wow. Hep has definite control over that site. It's a zoo over there! He has about 15 different ID's and some "novices" don't seem to even realize it. That's the funny part. After about 10 of the following posts, someone finally posted that they believe this is not the real ANOTHER, but a imposter. For those in need of comic relief, check it out.

On a more serious note, intraday gold looks like it wants to spike up this afternoon. We'll see.

Date: Sun May 17 1998 14:41

The world is an unpredictable place, yes? I did not intend to mislead. My travels have revealed that oil no longer wants gold, the Euro will be backed by no gold, and gold will soon be used for paperweights, boat anchors, and fishing lures. Because I feel guilty for what I have done, I will be happy to purchase any unwanted gold you may have at the generous price of $250 per ounce.

Return to Kitco Homepage

(Thu May 21 1998 12:39 - ID#373284)
EB-a gulp to ya. Tenacity, an excellent trait. 8 1/2 X 11 granite works for me. Done.
chas: yes, a sad series or realities. Nothing has really changed since the dawn of time with the exception of me and my people moving closer to the source of tequila. Viva Mexico, or if John Disney gets his way, Viva TexMex...gulp to ya...

(Thu May 21 1998 12:41 - ID#217338)
ChasAbar @16 to 1
Having placer mined for a number of years in the high siera in the vicinity of the original 16to1 after retriring from my regular job I came across many interesting stories, one has to do with the 16to1. This story told to me by an 89 year 0ld man who lives and has mined that area most of his life. During the second world war the 16 to1 along with all gold mines in the US were closed by Federal mandate to preserve manpower for the war effort. During this period a man who had been a shift foreman in the 16 to 1 and who was known to this 89 year old man came to him and attempted to elicit his help to enter the 16 to one to retrive a chunck of gold that he said he had found after a blast in the tunnel. This foreman told my friend that the chunk of gold was about the size of a mans head and was so heavy that all he could do was dig a hole in the tunnel floor and use maximum effort to roll the chunk into the hole and cover it. Since the mine was sealed and guarded at least part of the time my friend says that he declined to help.

(Thu May 21 1998 12:52 - ID#36977)
NM Rothschild & Sons Prepares for Year 2000 and EMU

"Rothschild's Resource Banking portfolio includes complex loans denominated in gold. The future ability of the ACBS system to cope fully with the processing of such specialized loans was a significant factor in the bank's selection decision. "

(Thu May 21 1998 12:57 - ID#342315)
AYORK and Chas Abar re specimen gold
Try this URL
Thius works for me, but if you have a problem, let me know. Charlie

(Thu May 21 1998 12:58 - ID#218385)
Preacher & All:

Any ideas about GRE's .55 drop? I haven't seen any news.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:04 - ID#286230)
NM Rothschild & Sons Prepares for Year 2000 and EMU
The more of this we hear of the further $30 000 looks.

"The fourth-generation system runs on advanced client/server architecture, offers complete Year 2000 and Euro currency
compliance, and is in use at such other leading financial institutions as NationsBank, Chase Manhattan Bank, PNC, HYPO Bank, Credit Lyonnais and Credit Agricole."

(Thu May 21 1998 13:09 - ID#317193)
Gold...what the charts are telling me...guaranteed!
The outlook for gold in the short term is bright to very dark dependent upon the formation of the inverted pennant when viewed by a person described as the south end of a north bound horse. Of course, the variables are such as to be providing false breakout or breakdown signals depending on your historical perspective and level of present investment. Contrarily, the variables may, and I repeat, may be providing true signals regarding the near term price of gold. If such is the case we are assured that, at least in the short term, gold will act in accordance with these variables and the price will reflect this activity.

One must be cognizant to identify and understand the various chart characteristics being utilized in any analysis. If, for example linear regression rather than moving average is incorporated the data must be interpreted consistent with such regression. Also, if momentum and stochastic are incorporated several additional assumptions and conclusions are not only require but possible. It is all dependent on the perceptions and competence of the model maker and interpreter. Hence, the need to verify the background of that person.

In this regard rest assured that I have absolutely no competence whatsoever in these matters. This is a total fabrication intended solely to provide what humor you may hopefully find in these words. Charts are tools-use your own mind and gut. Happy trading.


(Thu May 21 1998 13:12 - ID#410198)
tolerant1 thanks for the laugh,follow up to your post on Loral here a list of Dems who got cash
funny these same guys jump on Rep. for tobacco money...republicans kill children,dems just want to kill AMERICA

(Thu May 21 1998 13:13 - ID#57232)
NM Rothschild's, y2k and Gold loan transactions
Tyro: Interesting post. There are several possilbe interpretations to this. First pretty solid fact -- even the Rothschild's find 'paper' gold easier than physically moving gold around -- no surprise on that point.

But they may have their own ideas about what kind of paper gold. Second possible fact -- perhaps the Rothschilds are setting up their own 'paper gold' transaction system, just in case the public ones melt down -- for any reason, y2k being only one reason. Third possible fact -- perhaps the 'paper' gold prices are already far from equilibrium, or the Rothschilds are trying to bypass the US dollar entirely. Why should they bother with the US dollar when they have all the gold they need -- for any transaction they might need.

And -- if they set up their own transaction system -- they can set their own rules as to what 'paper' gold should be. Bet they are much more conservative than even the LBMA about that.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:13 - ID#317193)
TYoung (Gold...what the charts are telling me...guaranteed!) ID#317193:
Tom; LOL.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:16 - ID#298259)
This upturn in POG certainly as yet is not being confirmed by the XAU, Fidelity's gold funds or many of my gold equities. The XAU was up 2.08% earlier this morning and is now up only 1.13% and seems to be continuing downward. Both of Fidelity's gold funds as of the 12:00 price are about the same as yesterday's close.

Anyone have any recent information on BGO, currently at a bid of 2 1/16.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:17 - ID#289357)

I would say you have just about as much competence in interpreting charts, as those of us who are stupid enough to voice our opinions. ( ;^ ) )

(Thu May 21 1998 13:19 - ID#373284)
robnoel_A - gulp to ya, glad ya got a laugh. And of course money donated to
these politicians has zero impact on their votes - ah yeah!..Hmmmmmmmmmm

(Thu May 21 1998 13:19 - ID#333127)
Looks like the negative wave regards gold has subsided,words here are upbeat today, wait till tomorrow

(Thu May 21 1998 13:24 - ID#268404)
Thanks, TYoung
You have really cleared that perplexing problem for me, thanks

(Thu May 21 1998 13:26 - ID#218385)
Down-Spike Again
Don't you just love this time of day? It's like sitting at a blackjack table with a 21 and the dealer pulls...Blackjack. I must get myself a golden cup for this time of day.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:29 - ID#317193)
We all need to remember that our predictions are nothing more than guesses, hopefully educated. I do find humor in the folk who say gold is going up, unless of course, it goes down. Really, I never thought of that! DAHHHH.


(Thu May 21 1998 13:30 - ID#373284)
R. Rubin is a dirtbag, applied not one stitch of blame to the IMF for the problems
in IMFONESIA. He is a joke...GET CAMDESUSS!!!

(Thu May 21 1998 13:31 - ID#57232)
ACBS -- What the Rothschilds have installed

All: I am no banker. Perhaps Donald or someone else can tell us what this might do. Of course, the Rothschilds might have purchased a custom package -- lips would be sealed about that, I'm sure.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:34 - ID#255217)
@ Squirrel; your 12:20
I don't like to be a stroker, but I couldn't resist in this instance. Your post of 12:20 fits my grasp of the problem very closely. WHERE do you run to, now? HOW do you vote with your feet when there's no place left to go?

A little over two hundred years ago, this country came into being with about as good a system as has ever been devised, considering the perversity of human nature. The system was so good that it resisted almost all efforts to pervert it until about 70 years ago, give or take.

Since that time the perverts have increased their corruption of what was once a pretty good system to the point where there is only a shadow left of the original concepts that worked reasonably well for so long. It seems axiomatic that human beings pollute just about everything they come in contact with, given sufficient time.

Even if John Gault's valley could be instituted, it would eventually succomb to the ravages of human avarice and perversion as have all the previous attempts by humans to establish an incorruptible system equitable to all. It can't be done, IMHO.

Gold is comatose. Shock thereapy seems necessary for it to revive, which I have no doubt will arrive when the pain of reality sinks into sufficient numbers out there that the party's over.

Charleston Gold Bug
(Thu May 21 1998 13:35 - ID#344389)
Homestake Mining- August von Finck
August von Finck of Germany has submitted SEC filings
indicating he had purchased over 7% the common shares of HM. Does anyone
have any idea who he is and why he would be accymulating
this stake?


(Thu May 21 1998 13:38 - ID#194311)
Now here's a novel idea peg Rupiah to gold....duuhhh.
Jakarta should peg rupiah to dollar or gold -- Japanese official

CHICAGO, May 20 ( AFP ) - Indonesia should peg its free-falling
currency, the rupiah, to the dollar or gold to contain
hyperinflation and restore economic growth, a senior Japanese
banking official said here Wednesday.
"If currency depreciation is caused by loss of confidence in the
current Suharto government or the state of Indonesia, pegging the
rupiah with perfect convertibility to the dollar or gold, in which
people have faith as the absolute store of value, could help
stabilize the rupiah," said Akira Nambara, deputy governor of
Japan's Export-Import Bank.
Adressing a forum on the Asian financial crisis, Nambara cited
the example of Argentina which adopted such a scheme in 1990 when
its stagflation reached a peak.
"By adopting the US dollar as the nominal anchor, inflation was
effectively contained," he said, referring to the Argentine
"To put this ( currency board ) proposal into reality, Indonesia
has to introduce extremely tough policies. In effect it means giving
up autonomous exchange rate and monetary policy."
He added that Jakarta must also implement structural reforms,
particularly, a painful reform of its financial sector.
"Also, we must bring home to the ( Jakarta ) government that once
the currency board is adopted, there is no way of backtracking and
changing this policy," he noted.
Nambara said Jakarta would need the full support of the
International Monetary Fund, the United States, Japan and other
creditor nations to implement this scheme.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:39 - ID#373284)
Tonight on Tom Brokaw - a marauding band of newly trained grandmothers
and grandfathers may stave off the Y2K problem when trained to work on computers. Now where is that TexMex passport and TexMextionary...

(Thu May 21 1998 13:41 - ID#373284)
Kiwi - why would IMFONESIA need help from the US or Japan if they pegged to
gold. Their currency would immediately be stronger than the hyper- inflated saviors.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:46 - ID#270236)
Greenspan is a bigger dirtbag than Rubin.
Rubin has always been a statist. Greenspan sold-out for political

(Thu May 21 1998 13:48 - ID#341189)
On BGO: The intraday chart looks like a 200,000 sh sale about 1:00 at 2 1/8. Nothing special since. Looks like someone just bailed out.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:50 - ID#153102)
@Hah Hah @CaF2 @Squirrel
"Paper gold is easier to move around than gold itself." Hmm. Digits in accounts are easier to move around than paper itself. So, why is it so hard for some people to understand gold is moved around as digits in accounts, whether its paper gold or gold ?

Actually at the physical layer I can move $10,000 of gold around easier than $10,000 of paper when you consider $100 is the largest FRN usually available. And that's at today's "depressed price".

"A common means of removing fluoride residue from chemical processes, is
to dose the fluoride-containing solution with Calcium ion, which
precipitates the fluoride as a very insoluble particle, CaF2."

Where in the hell are those insoluble particles accumulating in my flesh " ? FYI I have seen reports EPA engineers say flouride in water is a pollutant. Just another Hah Hah from those earthly powers, the demi-gods of government.

Squirrel, you are basing your views on those of Ayn Rand, I think, forgetting she was a novelist. I don't think the records of American history bear out her elitist conceptions. Never forget she grew up in Russia and lived in America at a time when conformity was at its height.
I don't mean to minimize her role in liberation history and philosophy, but her inclination was to work things out in absoloute terms and events and people in history are never absoloutely anything. You ought to read about the settlement and establishing of a Constitution in Oregon. You'll feel better about your fellow Americans.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:50 - ID#358318)
August von Finck: A director...
-of Alusuisse-Lonza Group:
and a significant shareholder of SGS Socit Gnrale de Surveillance
Holding S.A.:

Possibly related to Baron August von Finck of the "Committee of 300"?

(Thu May 21 1998 13:52 - ID#20167)
plaintalker, Chas Abar, ORIGINAL 16 TO 1 MINE (OAU)
Thanks for the interesting story about the unrecovered gold nugget,
such stories stir the imagination and lust for gold in most of us.

There is a company in the Silicon Valley called Power Spectra ( OTC, BB
symbol ( pwsp ) that is in the business of developing ground penetrating
radar. This company's equipment was used in the original 16:1 mine to
find 7 oz. of gold in the wall of an existing tunnel. See the article
"Radar Vision is Golden"

(Thu May 21 1998 13:52 - ID#298259)
Thanks Carl...
Preacher, that wasn't you bailing out of BGO was it? Someone needs to kick that XAU a little.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:56 - ID#255217)
I wish you hadn't included the disclaimer. I was enjoying the analysis and was about to pick up the phone to call my broker and ugh...ugh... ... ...
Glad I didn't call.

John Disney__A
(Thu May 21 1998 13:57 - ID#24135)
What does "pegged" mean ?
I can "peg" my toilet paper to gold
and when I flush say "there goes
If it means CONVERTABLE to gold,
that sounds nice but they dont have
the gold reserves to convert it to.
Why doesnt the IMF GIVE them the
gold they were going to SELL ( remember
that from the dim past ) Ha Ha
to raise money for poor buggers .. instead
of money itself ... Yeah yeah
Ha Ha I gotta big fat picture of that

(Thu May 21 1998 13:58 - ID#290118)
Mozel - Ayn Rand is only an example that I figure you have a copy of.
A lot of the rest of my basis comes from outside my store door and on main street. Since people come through my place I do get a view of local reality that is hard to get when one interacts with a computer screen, market reports, and a bunch of similar thinking people in a discussion group. I've tried to get folks organized here to straighten things out before they get worse. But most of 'em are fat, dumb and happy. It is not bad enough to shake 'em away from the TV, videos, drugs, alcohol, and spectator sports. They won't know what happened till its too late. Many are only concerned about the GOLDEN in the glass, not the GOLD we talk about here. And this is just a small rural town - not the inner cities, etc.

(Thu May 21 1998 13:59 - ID#153102)
You know, if you don't hoe the garden, the weeds take over.
It's true every year. The weeds just never give up. You can move to another field, but it just seems like the weeds follow you everywhere.

When you and Squirrel find FREE LUNCH LAND, send me a postcard.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:00 - ID#286230)
Just a thought.
Is there any paper currency that can be taken to a bank and get gold back in return?

(Thu May 21 1998 14:03 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Selby -- Yes. However, what you get for your paper seems to vary from minute-to-minute and day-by-day.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:05 - ID#233199)
@CARL : Long URLs wreck the margins for many here on Kitco!

Please break your long ULs after the "HTTP://"

Have mercy

Thank you

(Thu May 21 1998 14:09 - ID#254269)
Y2K strikes me early; just got back form a trip to my bank . Went over to transfer some money from
one account to another so I can pay some bills ( yeah, I do pay bills once every six months ) . My bank is a large suburban branch of a LARGE supperregional bank. Normally there are 7 or 8 tellers working in this branch with 25 to 30 people always waiting in line. I go into the lobby and there are 2 people in line in front of three tellers. Get to one of the tellers and she says "we cannot process any transactions because our computers are locked up and we don't know how long they will be like this". I leave for 45 minutes to do some other things and come back and there is no change in the situation. However, for some strange reason, their drive through is working okay ( but SLOW ) . If this happens on a widescale for extended time periods, we will all be using personal script. True story.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:11 - ID#340459)
Looks like the Market correction has started, Dow and dollar may be slow downhill from here
Inspite of BBC/Bloomberg/WGC Article about 55% fall in demand for 1q, Gold is holding up quite firm since. I think Silver is also on steady rise as abnormalities are over for Siver/Palladium, I Hope and Pray.

The Gold stocks generally seem to be cautious since yesterday. Maybe the XAU will move more forcefully tomorrow.

Any news from the floor would be greatly appreciated, I hope that the Gold lease rates go up substantially so that Gold can move out of it's silo, looks like the fuses are lit already.

I hope that the Asians start buying Gold again, after their currencies were burned by Soros Fraternity. There seems to be a growing movement there against 'feast or famine' economics practised in the 'New World Order' of IMF/World Bank. The European Central Banks have slandered much against the traditional value of Gold while the facts remain that in dire circumstances, Gold survived to save the day for Thai's and Koreans very recently.

Inspite of being very much on the minus side till date with my PM investments, I feel more positive now specially, seeing firm price despite 55% news yesterday. Perhaps some deep pockets are very possibly accumalating now and they might slowly start gold's positive image in the media when the time is right in the future.

I think that B/C will weather all scandals and stay because he has strong backers and he has served them well, the media is on his side inspite of appearences to the contrary. As evident by the so called 'media polls' that are consistently made up to show that his popularity rising with each new scandal. In my opinion B/C is like a Actor who is handed a script daily and he does his lines to the best of his acting skills without being concerned about the morality of the story line. Ordinary Americans are too busy between making a buck, being politically correct, TV, Sports and 6 pack.

I Pray that our patience for PM's pays off, Handsomely, Amen

(Thu May 21 1998 14:12 - ID#25171)
Any bank dealing GOLD bullion will take your paper $ against solid GOLD.
Maybe you meant CB.
The answer I believe is no.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:12 - ID#26793)
@Mozel, SDRer; escape from an EMU contract

(Thu May 21 1998 14:13 - ID#375108)
What's Up??
Here we've had gold up all day, recently +$1.70 spot. Meanwhile, the TSE Gold and Precious Metals Index is up a whopping 0.02%. The XAU and HUI are a little better, at 0.85% and 1.10% respectively. A few heavy selloffs, Greenstone for one, mentioned earlier here by Kitcat. If stocks lead the bullion, this is not confidence-inspiring.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:14 - ID#286230)

(Thu May 21 1998 14:15 - ID#194311)
the russians are shipping.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:15 - ID#153102)
You resist being organized. Don't they have the same right as you to make up their own minds ?

Better than you, I know government is creeping, creeping, while we're sleeping. And I can't say that most of the people I know are any more inclined to take off the rose colored glasses than the people you mention. Apparent prosperity is a sleeping potion. And people think you are "really out of it" to suggest they need to read law themselves, that government and the law presume they know the law and that the first and primary duty of attorneys is to the government. Everyone is going around taking someone else's word for just about everything.

Things change, Squirrel. Just tend to your own garden. That's all you can do until someone asks you to do more.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:16 - ID#194311)
oops should be ..the russians are shopping.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:20 - ID#286230)
Viewd from outside the US Clinton has been a great president. He hasn't invaded any of his neighbours, he hasn't kidnapped any of his neighbours presidents, he hasn't started a war, he has blunted Jessie Helms. I can see I would not like him to be running my country but he sure looks good from out here.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:23 - ID#36977)
Y2K Ramblings
If the new Rothschild software truly is Y2K compliant
And my contacts tell me that it won't be a big deal . . .
But many others say it will be total chaos . . .
Then What's a Body to Do? . . . Since the level of risk for failure is very high, but the risk ( cost ) of preparation is low, why not prepare?
The 11th largest producer of electricity in the US is Uncle Sugar. AND it is split between the Bureau of Reclamation ( production ) and Dept. of Energy ( distribution ) . I give it a 50/50 chance. My gut feeling is that the embedded chips will be the weak point.
If the NWO really exists, what better way to cause a problem and have a solution already prepared ( one-world or regional gov, single currency ) . As many have said, they can't take over without taking the guns. With chaos comes martial law. Most would have security over freedom. QED
What a great suspense movie it would be.
This issue is so overwhelming, and it is such a BIG "IF", that just to imagine it possible is almost unbearable. To go beyond that, and figure out how to put things back together IF it happens is beyond the scope of most of us.
Squirrel, thanks for asking the questions.
( Disclaimer: the reader is free to skip this section, agree or disagree. I am NOT trying to persuade anyone. This is my OPINION. I do not wish to offend anyone. I reserve the right to be wrong. ) IF the NWO exists, they already have done the thinking, planning and I don't think we will like the results. We will see a struggle between the forces of freedom and tyranny. According to my source ( God and His Word ) , tyranny will win, for a while. Doesn't mean I'm giving up tho'. I know who the ultimate winner will be. Buy gold, silver, food, water filters, candles, and whatever else you think might help. Without God, I think all else will be for nought. To me, His Word is the only thing in this world that makes sense out of all of this mess.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:24 - ID#218385)
@Novice - Re What's Up
PM stock investors are getting wise to the cycle. One up day followed by four down days.

Carpe Aurem
(Thu May 21 1998 14:26 - ID#339292)
Hey Selb,

Are you from Indonesia, by any chance?

(Thu May 21 1998 14:27 - ID#373284)
JohnDisney - I AGREE - I was thinking anything to get IMFONESIA away
from the USD. Anything other than the dirtbags turning the world into paper addicts. Any step away from the dollar is good. Even "pegging" to gold...

(Thu May 21 1998 14:28 - ID#286230)
Carpe Aurem
No--are you?

(Thu May 21 1998 14:31 - ID#254269)
For a good laugh, tune into Kitco 2. the boys are drinking a little too much
moonshine over there !

(Thu May 21 1998 14:32 - ID#57232)
The Euro implementation as seen by ACBS -- the Rothschild's banking software vendor
SDRer: You may get something out of this.

Gusto Oro
(Thu May 21 1998 14:34 - ID#377235)
Selby, my advice to you is DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!!!!! ; ) --AG

(Thu May 21 1998 14:35 - ID#153102)
"Paper gold is easier to move around than gold itself." Hmm. Digits in accounts are easier to move around than paper itself. So, why is it so hard for some people to understand gold is moved around as digits in accounts, whether its paper gold or gold ?

Actually at the physical layer I can move $10,000 of gold around easier than $10,000 of paper when you consider $100 is the largest FRN usually available. And that's at today's "depressed price".

"A common means of removing fluoride residue from chemical processes, is
to dose the fluoride-containing solution with Calcium ion, which
precipitates the fluoride as a very insoluble particle, CaF2."

Where in the hell are those insoluble particles accumulating in my flesh " ? FYI I have seen reports EPA engineers say flouride in water is a pollutant. Just another Hah Hah from those earthly powers, the demi-gods of government.
The Euro's legal implications remind me of Y2K; either its No Problem or a pending big disruption depending on whom you heed.

One thing for sure, the big derivatives contract writers are in the country that sponsored the IMF and World Bank, the country that favors floating exchange rates. The legal topsy turvy from the Euro should not be underestimated. I think the whole concept of derivatives to hedge foreign exchange risk, legal risk, and settlement risk in general is proving unworkable. If so, floating exchange rates are as well.

What is being attempted in Europe is really without precedent. The hidden concerns that are driving this process must be quite serious. And they won't go away even if the Euro fails.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:36 - ID#25171)
FED selling treasuries on behalf of BOJ
FOREX anticipating more intervention by BOJ on $/YEN , that is why $/yen is tanking hard right now and dragging $/DM in the process.
Somebody tried again to sell GOLD and SILVER on close at COMEX.This time , he or they were not able to bring it back below 300.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:36 - ID#225273)
Market Comments
Just before the close, gold is up $1.40. BUT, the XAU, which posted a reasonable gain earlier, has now slipped significantly. Last I saw it was up only .43.
With the indicators I follow, I have to let the market tell me what's up. Gold and the XAU have held their uptrends, but I don't like to see three days in a row where gold outperforms the XAU.
I'm still in, though, until the uptrend lines are broken.

Frustrated, I didn't sell my BGO.

Rube, where are you that you can say "things look pretty good here, Wait till tomorrow"?

The Preacher

(Thu May 21 1998 14:38 - ID#375108)
Through natural selection, we bugs have learned to be hit-and-run investors, I guess. When swimming with sharks, it doesn't pay to linger in the water too long... GRE/GRERF seems to be recovering this afternoon ( I'm a watcher of same, not currently a holder ) . Ciao.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:39 - ID#31868)
Sorry to kill the discussion about gold and paper and accounts
go to http:/// its here, it works...end of story.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:44 - ID#31868)
So bad is good huh...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

(Thu May 21 1998 14:47 - ID#409160)
Kitco 2
Could someone give the the location for kitco 2, thanks

(Thu May 21 1998 14:49 - ID#286230)
Gusto Oro
I watch all 3 major networks as well as CNN daily I know where it is better to be. But Clinton looks like he is going to be around til the end of his term. Then after 20 years or so he will return a sanitized hero--not unlike Nixon and Carter.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:49 - ID#289357)
tolerant1 @ E-gold, Y2K

Since you mentioned this - I never thought to ask E-Gold if they are Y2K-proofed. Any ideas?

You are one of our resident experts on Y2K......what's likely to happen to all those slot machines in Vegas or Atlantic City ( with their imbedded chips ) when the date rolls over? Should we take our 5 gallon buckets and get ready to load up? Just thought I'd ask - I have relatives who work in a couple of those casinos.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:51 - ID#408170)
To become an OPTIMISM........

"Expect the worst in people and you'll never be disappointed "

Works every time!!!!!

(Thu May 21 1998 14:51 - ID#36977)
FSAGX approved to buy SA gold stocks
Sector Focus: Fido Sector Funds Get Ready to Stretch Their Limbs

"In a separate proposal, shareholders of Fidelity American Gold ( Nasdaq:FSAGX - news ) voted to change the 80% fundamental policy
with the knowledge that the board would immediately use its new power to modify the language of the policy. The words "North,
Central and South American" will be deleted from fund literature discussing the investment objective to allow greater flexibility to
invest globally rather than focusing on securities located in the Americas. "

(Thu May 21 1998 14:52 - ID#333127)
Just being a wiseguy. Frustrated with gold and gold stks.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:52 - ID#286230)
Here is the URL for K2. Put your rubber booties on before you go.

(Thu May 21 1998 14:53 - ID#408170)

(Thu May 21 1998 14:55 - ID#375108)
The old place ( Flag-heaven ) just ain't the same, eh??

(Thu May 21 1998 14:56 - ID#31868)
SilverBaron call the man direct - 800 - 909-6590 and ask. The problem is not with
his system, it will be with the phones ergo the Internet being down. On the other hand, it is your metal, not the case with "dollars" the government controls them and the flow of them.

I would not worry about the kids in Vegas, they will take care of themselves like they always have.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:00 - ID#359316)
You can also click on "Discussion on gold bars, coins and stocks" on the
PM prices header at the top of the page. Don't know about the frames

(Thu May 21 1998 15:01 - ID#286230)
I'm sure K2 is the same as something. BART must not be as concerned about bandwidth as I had thought.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:14 - ID#218385)
So is this the infamous "Hepcat" that Old Gold equated me to? I feel flattered...he's got character ( s ) .

(Thu May 21 1998 15:17 - ID#22882)
August Von Finck

Charleston G.B., I heard that Herr Von Finck is of German aristocracy and with good connections. I imagine it's true as he has a more than 12 million HM shares. Homestakes message board at Yahoo has some posts about his purchases, see #254,#135 and #134. I am sure they also have other posts that reference his purchases.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:23 - ID#298259)
I'm sure the Preacher knows I was just a jokin. He knows I tune in to read all of his "Market Comments"...haven't missed a one. Will be interesting to see what he has to say tonight. I bet today wasn't D-day yet.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:26 - ID#255217)
Ineluctable options for weed management
I heard a story some years back about a fellow who became concerned about his health after reading a considerable amount of literature on the subject. So he resolved to mend his ways ( not that they were all that bad ) and follow the prescribed rules as closely as he could. This fellow changed his diet, eating only good, wholesome foods, taking vitamins and food supplements and was careful not to overeat.

He got on an exercise program and adhered rigorously to it. He was careful to get the proper amount of rest and avoided stressful situations whenever possible. After a decent time interval he became the picture of health and was complimented by admiring friends and associates.

This situation continued for several years and then the unthinkable happened to this fellow. HE DIED, ANYWAY!

All through recorded history, men have attempted to devise schemes to manipulate political systems to their advantage and promote their own agendas. They are, indeed, like weeds in that they never give up! You can spray em, you can chop em,; you can dig em up. But they always come back. SOMETIMES IT'S NOT WORTH THE EFFORT REQUIRED, especially when the weeds have taken over to the point where they are so numerous as to outnumber the veggies and normal eradication methods no longer work. THEN , the option is to move on to another location OR DESTROY THE WHOLE GARDEN AND START OVER! You have a choice. Not everyone will make the same decision. Or, you can just choose to live with the weeds. Many do. And they call it freedom.

Go gold.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:26 - ID#255217)
Ineluctable options for weed management
I heard a story some years back about a fellow who became concerned about his health after reading a considerable amount of literature on the subject. So he resolved to mend his ways ( not that they were all that bad ) and follow the prescribed rules as closely as he could. This fellow changed his diet, eating only good, wholesome foods, taking vitamins and food supplements and was careful not to overeat.

He got on an exercise program and adhered rigorously to it. He was careful to get the proper amount of rest and avoided stressful situations whenever possible. After a decent time interval he became the picture of health and was complimented by admiring friends and associates.

This situation continued for several years and then the unthinkable happened to this fellow. HE DIED, ANYWAY!

All through recorded history, men have attempted to devise schemes to manipulate political systems to their advantage and promote their own agendas. They are, indeed, like weeds in that they never give up! You can spray em, you can chop em,; you can dig em up. But they always come back. SOMETIMES IT'S NOT WORTH THE EFFORT REQUIRED, especially when the weeds have taken over to the point where they are so numerous as to outnumber the veggies and normal eradication methods no longer work. THEN , the option is to move on to another location OR DESTROY THE WHOLE GARDEN AND START OVER! You have a choice. Not everyone will make the same decision. Or, you can just choose to live with the weeds. Many do. And they call it freedom.

Go gold.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:27 - ID#317193)
At 1 or 1 1/16 this may be a buy. Just a guess.


(Thu May 21 1998 15:30 - ID#298259)
@ Preacher...
Last trade on BGO at 2. Yikes...

(Thu May 21 1998 15:30 - ID#268404)
Story reminds me of parable in the Bible about wheat and weeds

(Thu May 21 1998 15:32 - ID#57232)
News from Russia -- strikes continue

(Thu May 21 1998 15:33 - ID#290118)
Mozel - We HAVE been told to tend others' gardens - with our taxes.
We pay people to beat us up. Are we OK? I've been on the local Chamber board. I've campaigned for city council and county commissioner. I've knocked on doors and talked to groups. Yes, our view is perceived as "being out of it". Others and I have been damned for bringing up so much trouble. I don't have to dig it up. People walk in my door and complain in my ear because I'm either their present or hoped for representative on a Board. There are not enough who see these problems to get enough people like me elected to positions where we can change things. No, correct that fantasy. Local government can't do much or anything anyway. The problem is too big and our hands are tied by "higher" {ha ha} governments. I wish I did not know so much about government from local school boards to the United Nations. Then I would not be as cynical, skeptical, jaded, angry and, sometimes, withdrawn in depression. Ignorance really is bliss.

In a perverse sense, I share the hope of others in this forum that Y2K and other forces acting to restructure our world actually succeed. Hopefully this does not usher in another few hundred years of "Dark Ages". Rather, we hope we can return to the ideals of the founders of this nation - at least for a few generations . Then, yes, it would again need to be plowed under and reseeded. As Jefferson put it - from time to time the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots.

So yes I and many of us here do dream. We dream of a place where money is gold and silver coins, where the freedoms espoused in our Declaration and Constitution are still alive and well. We dream of finding someplace where we can establish, at least for a few generations, our own libertarian lives. I do not wish to tell others how they should live. I {and we} just wish they would leave us and ours alone. From what you tell us - this must be a fantasy - or are we wrong?

(Thu May 21 1998 15:33 - ID#255217)
Sorry about the double post. It was unintentional.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:38 - ID#268404)
Today was just the start, its time to do a serious dump of US bonds and buy Gold

(Thu May 21 1998 15:39 - ID#254269)
Creature from Jekyll Island; I was finally able to get a copy of this through an
inter-library loan. Might spend this weekend reading it. First couple of chapters look real interesting.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:40 - ID#228100)
NM Rothchild - Y2K Compliance
Their system problems are solved because their business software is compliant? Ha!! Thats about the same as thinking that a PC is compliant because the Kitco site is compliant. Advanced client/server architecture?? Hmmm...

- Note that the article said that this is lending software only. This is a small fraction of the software that a bank needs to operate. How will the bank pay its employees? ( If their payroll system doesnt work, they probably wont have anyone hanging around to operate any system! ) How will the bank manage its deposits? ( checking, savings, CDs... ) How will they know if the corporation is profitable? ( General Ledger software. ) Marketing software?

- How about the banks infrastructure? Every bank that Ive ever seen uses hundreds of different models of routers, servers, PCs and other hardware. And these are usually running different combinations of operating systems. For example, Novell and Microsoft are STILL generating patches to make their client/server software compliant!

- These guys are awfully brave ( or stupid ) to advertise that they are Year 2000 compliant. Suppose that a bank buys their software, and then finds a problem caused by the banks unique client/server hardware. Can we say LAWSUIT? Shouldnt they have tested their software on XYZ hardware?

Any ONE of these problems could be fixed in any company in just a few months. The problem is that corporations are running so many combinations of hardware and software, that when you change any one component ( hardware or software ) , you always affect other things, too. Plus, these are very dynamic systems with data that are constantly changing. Currently most companies have very limited resources.

For example, for this lending software, the same folks that are going to figure out the additional hardware requirements, test, install, and move the loan data are the same people that are going to do the same for all of the other financial systems. And this will happen only AFTER theyve make a decision to fix their existing software or install something like Rothchilds.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:40 - ID#57232)
Russian situation
All: Please read my post carefully. It appears that the rail connection between one major part of Russia to another has been blockaded off by the miners, who are letting riders through on a 'compassionate basis'. Is this a stable situation?

Oris -- are you sure your contacts are on the level? Sounds very bad to me.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:41 - ID#113316)
Hello Midas my old friend. So much pessimism and discouragement on Kitco despite the fact that gold held up well even though it had every reason to tank and silver has bounced from its ridiculously oversold condition. This has to be the "Seventh Sign" that we are at the cusp of the long awaited reversal of the gold market and continued breakout of the silver market.

It seems to me that all is in place to support this conclusion, Other signs are:

1. There is no doubt that the US Equity Markets are going down. Whether this is a correction or the beginning of a bear remains to be seen, but the direction is clearly down.

2. The US dollar has finally reversed direction and is now going to move down. With a record trade imbalance and overseas debt, the US dollar cannot support a $300 billion trade deficit, which is where things are headed unless the dollar does correct to a more realistic level. This will have far-reaching effects, including the reversal of the dollar/yen carry trade and repatriation of capital back to overseas markets.

3. Inflation and interest rates are also reversing directions and will rise. Oil will recover to $20/bbl on the strength of renewed demand from Asia and normal demand from US and Europe ( end of El Nino mild winter ) .

4. Kiwi post at 13:38 most significant. Recommendation by Japanese CB official to support rupiah with gold! After experiencing this terrible Asian currency crisis ( that is not over yet ) , a CB banking official has finally gotten the message that maybe there is a good reason for CBs to maintain adequate gold reserves against their currencies. No other message could be more important, because it has been CB sales and leases of their gold that is, IMHO, completely responsible for the deterioration in the POG.

Will call my broker first thing tomorrow morning and fully leverage my positions in gold, silver and pm stocks. I have a preference for HL, CDE, and Homestake, but would also like any input on predominantly gold mining cos that do NOT have a hedged position ( some companies will not benefit by the run-up in gold because they have already forward sold most of their production ( could be a reason why gold may do better than XAU on the upside ) .

(Thu May 21 1998 15:44 - ID#290118)
Argent - thank you for wading into the ring with me.
That's what happens when business is slow. We wax philosophical about how life could be better. Maybe the others I complain about are just so busy working two and a half jobs to make ends meet that they don't have the time or energy to pay attention to distant thunder - if they do notice they hope it will go around them.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:48 - ID#254269)
Thinking is hard work. @ squirrel & Argent. That's why most people don't do it.
You really have to stop and think about some of these concepts and what is happening in the world today. Also, people expect instant results and that does not work.

(Thu May 21 1998 15:50 - ID#317193)
There is a time to sow and a time to reap. A time for every purpose under heaven. Cycles, my friend, cycles. Contain your frustration. Unfortunately, opportunity may knock sooner than you think.


(Thu May 21 1998 15:52 - ID#254269)
Quote of the day. "Chance favors the prepered mind". Louis

(Thu May 21 1998 15:59 - ID#254269)
should be prepared

The Hermit
(Thu May 21 1998 16:03 - ID#374232)
@ Lock&Lode - 10:02
Thank you!

(Thu May 21 1998 16:03 - ID#227290)
Market Comments
A little encouragement on this Thursday afternoon. The XAU is up .78 points now. Also, the South African seniors, ASA, DRFNY, WDEPY, FSCNY, are all positive on the day and closing near or at their respective highs.

Frustrated and frustrated rube. I got your messages. I was hoping rube was a floor trader somewhere who had the "skinny" for us.
Still, rube, you may be able to launch your own precious metals newsletter with your earlier prediction. Tomorrow may be our day.

The Preacher

(Thu May 21 1998 16:03 - ID#25171)
It has been made clear by the IMF and other coconspirators that a currency board would never see the light in INDONESIA.Even BC called his good ( at the time of the call ) friend SUHARTO to hammer the idea.
For international organisations to allow INDONESIA to peg its currency to gold would be as shooting themselves in the foot.
Let's get real.

(Thu May 21 1998 16:08 - ID#210235)
@All - is this a new development?
I haven't seen a report like this before.

India Says Pakistan Opens Fire in Kashmir

(Thu May 21 1998 16:10 - ID#22882)
Viceroy: A good bet for a turnaround

Viceroy Resource is a well hedged mid-range producer that been around for about 7 years and may to be turning around to its formerly profitable self.

In its earlier years the company was a virtual profit machine, then lower grades and higher strip ratios effected the bottom line at its 75% owned Castle Mountain Mine. Stripping ratios are scheduled to go down at CM as should costs, but during this first quarter they have been rather high.

This mine has been noted to have high grade pockets of leachable material within the normal lower grade leachable material mined. IMHO the company seems to overlook some very good deeper gold intersections, but they may want to mine the above ground material first?

Their Brewery Creek Mine is also a heap leacher is located in the Yukon and turned in a fair quarter considering Yukon winters and no other major activities than leaching during the first quarter.
Production there should increase considerably during warmer weather.

The company had a loss of 3 cents for the first quarter and is well hedged at about $400 for over 130,000 ounces still for 1998.

The company has about $40 million in cash and further hedges at over $400 that could be converted to cash if gold would be allowed to seek its fair value.

The company is also active in exploration projects located in Mexico. South America, Africa and Indonesia by virtue of partially owned entities.

Last quarter result at;

Their web sit is

(Thu May 21 1998 16:10 - ID#227290)
Guyana Goldfields
I've talked about this company before ( GGFI:Canadian Dealers Network ) . It is halted today pending news which I'm told will be out tomorrow.
GGFI has an acquisition to announce plus some drill assays from the property it has already been working on.
I think this is one of the premier up-and-coming mining companies. Tomorrow should be a big step forward for it.

The Preacher

(Thu May 21 1998 16:43 - ID#254269)
where is ......................................
everyone ?

(Thu May 21 1998 16:48 - ID#28594)
( 1 ) Pegs, hammers and other esoterica...
The US dollar fell slightly against the yuan last month as SUPPLY continued to EXCEED demand. Xiao Wu [SICCEW--China Economic Window]

( 2 ) CB gold sales--If the market rumors are about this sale--its over and done with...
Press release - sale of gold: Czech National Bank has sold 25 tonnes of gold in the year 1997. Transactions to protect value of another 31 tonnes of gold were taken in 1997 as well. When deciding on the sale of part of the gold reserves, the Board of CNB has argued that the size of gold in CNBs balance sheet did not correspond to the targets of holding foreign currency reserves.

This sale will be settled and reflected on the CNBs balance sheet on 5 March 1998. After the settlement of this sale, CNBs gold reserves will be at 45 tonnes, 5 tonnes of which treated separately as the so called gold of the Slovak state. Apart from its own gold reserves, CNB also manages 4 tonnes of gold of National Bank of Slovakia, which CNB withholds in relation to the unresolved problems of division of the balance sheet of the State Bank of Czechoslovakia.
M. Svehla - CNB

Mozel@ your.comment -- Just tend to your own garden. That's all you can do until someone asks you to do more. Have masticated, swallowed;
in process of digesting.

(Thu May 21 1998 16:52 - ID#210235)
On the good news front,
One of our own was nominated for an award. This is Studio's studio:

(Thu May 21 1998 16:53 - ID#43460)
Panda re your 6:19 post
OK. your graph shows the Dow has entered the log phase of growth. ( I think it is cheating for chart writers to use log scales on their pictures, as it distorts the time/price changes. ) The next phase is classically the dieoff or crash, which will be uncertain in both time and depth, but in analagous population systems one would expect an equillibrium point in the range of 1500-3500. But here's the catch. In a population system the dieoff might go go much lower before rebounding to equillibrium ( perhaps all the way to zero as in the case of the dodo or North American camel ) . IMHO

Come to think of it the chart for human population is also in a log phase, entering the weakening before the crash....hmmm....IMHO

(Thu May 21 1998 16:55 - ID#368244)
What on earth is going on with BGO? Are insiders dumping the stock?

I got murdered on this one today!
(Thu May 21 1998 17:02 - ID#432170)
current prospects for gold

For those of you interested in charting, or "technical" data:

the pattern of 'Commmitment of Traders' charts, as depicted in charts I subscribe to, from Commodity Trend Service's "Futures Charts" ( - for more info. &/or subscription, call them at 1-800-331-1069, or visit their web-site at> ) ....indicate a pattern of base-building for the gold market ( - see their weekly charts for gold prices, and Commitment of Traders patterns. ) This pattern of lower highs for net-buying of Commercials, as gold prices have steadily worked lower, since July, 1997, until/into March, 1998, is very bullish.

I repreat, since July '97, into/thru Mar '98: ""The "commercials", and their 'lower net buys', at successively lower goldprices, is a bullish pattern, for precious metals."" I urge those interewsted, to re-read, and study this pattern. This is the obvious accumulatuion pattern, by commercials, beginning in July '97, thru March, & into the current period of Apr-May, '98. Whether this accumulation pattern is completing, for commercials in the gold market -- remains to be seen. But again, this building, accumulating pattern, as it has been mapping itself, since July, 1997; confirms that a base or bottom,

in gold markets, is forming/has formed ( - for this investment/trading period/opportunity. )

A similar bullish pattern can be identified in the cotton market, with the Commitment of Traders net buying - declining - as prices have denclined, since Dec. '97.

I repreat the importance/significance, of this Commitment of Traders' pattern. It is an EARLY indicator, and must be used, if effectively, with a combination of other technical indicators, such as moving averages, on-balance-volume, stochastics, MACD, roc, etc.

Although there is often more heat than light on the Kitco board, there are enough of us, here, who sincerely seek the 'truth' of markets and timing - in particular, for the prospects of gold/precious metals.

Best wishes to you all.


Davd Blair Macrory

if you wish:

email me at or

( - for more info. &/or subscription, call Copmmodity Trend Service, at 1-800-331-1069, or visit their web-site at )

(Thu May 21 1998 17:03 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.37 The 50 day moving average is 29.70

(Thu May 21 1998 17:05 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spopt Ratio = .272 The 50 day moving average is also .272

(Thu May 21 1998 17:05 - ID#194311)
butteheafs doing time
Businessmen Jailed in Mining Scam

LONDON ( AP ) -- Three businessmen Thursday were given prison
sentences for cheating investors in a bogus gold-mining venture.
The executives got 60 million pounds ( $100 million ) selling
shares in a company called Butte Mining on the stock market, with
promises of a big gold-mining operation to be set up in Montana,
authorities said.
But the three had exaggerated the value of the metals they could
get, and the investment money was secretly shuffled through a web
of offshore trust funds, authorities said. The Butte Mining shares
soon plunged in value.
``The degree of dishonesty involved is so serious and
far-reaching that it constitutes a flagrant disregard of the law
specifically designed to protect investors,'' said the judge, Sir
George Newman, as he sentenced the men at the end of an 11-month
Detectives who investigated the case traveled to Hong Kong, New
Zealand, Monaco, France and Switzerland to piece together what had
happened with all the money.
Clive Smith, 51, from Balterley, in the British Midlands, was
described by authorities as the mastermind of the scheme. He was
sentenced to three years in prison and disqualified from working as
a corporate director in Britain for five years.
John Clarke, 49, a founding director of Butte Mining, from
Gerrards Cross near London, also got three years in prison and a
five-year suspension from working as a director.
Malcolm Clews, 48, a former associate of Smith, from Conway,
north Wales, was sentenced to 18 months in prison.

(Thu May 21 1998 17:07 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 56.95

(Thu May 21 1998 17:07 - ID#30116)
Take a look at Agnico Eagle mines for an unhedged producer of gold and copper. The ticker is ( NYSE ) AEM or AGE.TO. Does not move very much until the POG gets people excited though....

(Thu May 21 1998 17:11 - ID#30116)
At my current Internet challenged work location, those who invest in the 'market' aren't 'impressed' with a fifty point up move in the Dow. BUT, let the Dow fall fifty to seventy points and their concern becomes apparent. :- ) )

When the fall comes, intermediate correction or something else, you can be sure of one thing; It will be swift.

(Thu May 21 1998 17:12 - ID#258142)
JTF, 15:40 (Russian situation)
Thats right. Whole Siberia and russian far east has no ground connection with Europen part of the country

(Thu May 21 1998 17:15 - ID#26793)
Amax Gold news

(Thu May 21 1998 17:19 - ID#26793)
Kinross Gold news

(Thu May 21 1998 17:20 - ID#411331)
@Isure: Bema, the stock options kings of the underworld, issued a pile
of shares at under $3 last year If memory serves, the total was 11 million shares. Maybe someone is unloading this stuff. They issued the stock cheap to reduce debt. I was upset at the time, and now we both know why. The market could also be reacting to the bad news out of Russia today. ( Bema just spent $10 million to acquire Arian Ming, with, guess what, more shares issued! ) They have good properties, and excellent prospects, but I'm really not in love with their management.
When I can unload my position, I will. Anybody who puts money into anything Russian is a fool!

Cage Rattler
(Thu May 21 1998 17:20 - ID#33182)
Hologram stamp stolen: Fake Euros to appear ?
A HIGH-security hologram stamp designed to protect 13 billion new euro notes from forgery has been stolen from an Air France jet, prompting fears that counterfeiters are already equipping themselves to flood Europe with fake euros.

The one-off original stamp, needed to make the holograms embedded in the euro notes when they are issued in January 2002, was entrusted to Air France in Paris by the Brink's security firm on May 12 and placed in the hold of the Paris-Munich flight AF 2522.

On arrival in Munich, Air France staff discovered that the small, 2lb parcel containing the stamp was missing and raised the alarm. A search of the plane yielded no clues and Air France says it cannot be sure if the package was taken in Paris, where the flight was delayed for 20 minutes, or in Munich.

Yesterday, an Air France spokesman confirmed that the company had been aware of the contents of the package, which was under "specific surveillance". The airline, which is legally responsible for the theft, has filed criminal charges against "persons unknown".

The stamp was made by Hologramme Industries, a small French firm near Marne-la-Valle. It was on its way to a German company, based near Munich, which will be printing the first euro notes. Their introduction on January 1, 2002, represents an opportunity for any fraudster sharp enough to make a plausible copy of the high denomination 500 euro and 200 euro notes - which will be worth around 350 and 140 each.

The London Telegraph, May 21, 1998

(Thu May 21 1998 17:27 - ID#238422)
He is not my contact, he is my trusted friend.
His level is good enought for me...

Railway blocked? So what?...

Cage Rattler
(Thu May 21 1998 17:27 - ID#33182)
Gold performs its traditional role as asset of last resort
Source: World Gold Council

The economic and currency crisis in several Asian countries during the opening three months of the year tiggered large-scale sales of gold back to the market.

As a direct result of this unprecedented increase in supply, the statistics of the consumption of gold in countries monitored by the World Gold Council showed a decline of 55% to 342.1 tonnes during the first quarter of 1998.

Total demand for the period in the developed markets maintained the level of the first quarter of last year at 164.3 tonnes.

In the developing markets, however, the government-sponsored gold collection campaign in South Korea, together with net sales from the private sector in Indonesia, brought a decline of 70% to 177.8 tonnes. This fall in the developing world came in spite of continued robust demand in India, the Middle East and Latin America.

These are the main findings in the latest issue of the World Gold council's quarterly survey Gold Demand Trends, published yesterday.

Commenting on the findings, George Milling-Stanley, manager of Gold Market Analysis, said: "It was net sales back to the market in just two countries that did the damage to the demand statistics during the first quarter.

"There was nothing intrinsically wrong with the underlying trend in gold demand, with good growth being recorded throughout the rest of the world.

"Gold gave a powerful demonstration of its traditional role as a store of value and an asset of last resort, and that lesson has not been lost in the countries concerned. South Koreans demonstrated their patriotism by responding to the government's 'Save the Nation' campaign with sales amounting to some 250 tonnes of gold in order to help the country repay its huge loans from the IMF.

"In Indonesia, gold came to the rescue of private citizens, who were able to take advantage of the fact that the price in local currency had almost doubled in less than a year to sell back to the market.

"The Korean campaign ended on March 14, and the flood of dishoarding from Asia has dried up. Early reports from the region indicate the demand is turning strongly positive in the second quarter. Now that this extraordinary statistical anomaly is out of the way, the outlook is for a good recovery in gold demand over the remainder of the year."

First quarter demand highlights include:

In the developing markets, there was robust growth throughout India, the Middle East and Latin America. Demand set records for the first quarter in India ( up 17% ) , the United Arab Emirates ( up 50% ) , and Saudi Arabia ( up 3% ) .

In the developed markets, demand maintained the level of a year ago. First-quarter demand records were set in the UK ( up 41% ) and the US ( up 10% ) .

The World Gold Council is an international organisation formed for and funded by leading gold mining companies from around the world to increase the demand for gold. The countries monitored by the Council account for approximately 80% of global gold demand.

(Thu May 21 1998 17:27 - ID#410198)
kiwi...3 years in the big house for $100,000,000.00 where do I sign up

(Thu May 21 1998 17:28 - ID#270247)

I know many believe that having Suharto step down will end all the problems in that nation. But weren't the riots caused by the rapid rise in prices of fuel and other essential goods, and weren't those price increases actually caused by the IMF not Suharto. He was only following orders given to him in order to receive the IMF money. If this is really the case than having someone else take over really won't help the situation. Once the people figure out that prices aren't going down the riots will probably continue.

(Thu May 21 1998 17:30 - ID#225273)
Isure & BGO
The stock was down 3/16; I don't see it as such a big deal. I'm down from C$3.40 last Wednesday to today's close of C$3.04. That's not good, but I don't see it as any big deal. A runup in the gold price can make it back in a hurry.

I think Rhody may be right concerning the new projects in far east Russia. Still, on a gold rally, the Chilean projects can carry BGO higher.

The Preacher

(Thu May 21 1998 17:30 - ID#270247)
Gold being up is only good news in an otherwise dark day here in the Pacific Northwest.


(Thu May 21 1998 17:37 - ID#432157)
Help--Goldman Sacs--MARKETPERFORM----KINROSS Gold (K-TSE) ??????
What does Market Perform mean by Goldman Sacs HELP.
(Thu May 21 1998 17:39 - ID#432170)
Pakistan opens fire in Kashmir

Cage Rattler
(Thu May 21 1998 17:39 - ID#33182)
The Washington Post today reported that President Clinton has the stockpiling of antidotes and vaccines for the civilian population of the United States as the likelihood increases that one day the nation could come under an attack of biological weapons. The plan will be announced by the president tomorrow at a commencement address at the Naval Academy. Experts say that such a program, however, could cost billions of dollars and require years to complete.

(Thu May 21 1998 17:50 - ID#347235)
Preacher---could you please give me your comments on abx as it has done nothing for two days with gold and the xau both up.

Gusto Oro
(Thu May 21 1998 17:55 - ID#430260)
Selby, if you watch all three major networks & CNN daily you must want to be in the US. All the wood alchohol in China couldn't sanitize Clinton. --AG

(Thu May 21 1998 18:05 - ID#36977)
Hundreds of Islamic Gunmen seize Dagestan ( Russia ) government building

Asiaweek magazine says IMF chief is most powerful man in Asia
newsid_98000/98127.stm ( cut/paste )

Nightmare at Thurston High: Another shooting, one dead, dozens injured.

(Thu May 21 1998 18:07 - ID#258142)
Much attention to Indonesia on Dutch TV - it is a former colony of Netherlands. They say, this new guy was the only one minister, who was allowed to kiss Suhartos hand when he returns home from his trip. Looks like this guy is not for a long time. Too tight relations with Suharto family. More to come. Evacuation of foreign people continue

(Thu May 21 1998 18:23 - ID#36977)
Indonesia outlook: From frying pan to fire

"In Indonesia, Soharto's choice of his buddy,B.K Habibie, as his successor will turn out to be an unmitigated disaster. Habibie epitomizes crony capitalism at its worst, he is a certifiable flake, and a believer in an economic theory which borders on the deranged."

(Thu May 21 1998 18:27 - ID#113316)
Thanks for the recommendations on unhedged gold mining cos. I will check them out tonight.

Sequin - importance is for CBs to realize the time proven importance of maintaining adequate gold reserves against their currencies. The rupiah does not have to be "pegged" against gold ( or the dollar, by a Currency Board ) . It only has to be backed by adequate gold reserves. I ask you if the rupiah had been backed by 30% gold reserves ( high end of estimate for EMU ) , would it have collapsed in value as it did? Suggest you visit golden eagle and read the AG quote about the need for gold reserves. It is the necessary discipline to prevent the excessive expansion of money supply!

If CBs simply stopped selling and leasing their gold, there would be an immediate major deficit in the supply/demand equation. POG would surge. If CBs sought the return of leased gold, where would this gold be obtained to repay the loans? The resultant chaos would make the recent palladium market look tame in comparison.

It is interesting to note that the CBs themselves have been acting contrary to their best interests. If CBs had not sold or leased their gold, the the POG would have likely appreciated around its historical norm, that in today's dollars has been estimated around $625/oz. In that case, the value of the CBs gold reserves would be a higher percentage of their currency and, as a result, would have promoted stability in the currency markets ( exactly what they have NOT been able to achieve under their current policies ) .

(Thu May 21 1998 18:40 - ID#267344)
UH OH - I never realized this whole Asian crisis thing could effect other countries...
Perhaps I should acrue some more debt - yeah, that's the ticket!
- c

(Thu May 21 1998 18:46 - ID#263379)
SCraping da bo t t o m .............
I just don't know what's wrong with me! I can feel these gold mining stocks just scraping their bottom prices, just grinding away week after week going lower, sideways, or just nowhere. Only absolute capitulation left, than out of business. Very painful.... I know a lot of you people out there in KITCO world must feel the same.
It's dismal!

Now, if I had just owned stock in companies that make products like a childs burp arrestor, it would probably be at $50.00 a share with deficit earnings, and I would be smiling all the way to the bank.
But no, I gotta own gold stocks with real, and in some cases, unbelievable intrinsic value. but today, almost worthless paper.

Well, one of my beauties is BEMA ( BGO ) , lots of gold, lots of value, lots of loss of sleep and it continues scraping the bottom......

I'm a believer that Gold is gonna take off soon. But, you know what, I also thought that last fall. Mr. "ANOTHER" where are you, I need help! I just hope someday we really have this gold price rally, and that it coincides with a mining stock rally that doesn't coincide with a general market crash. Do you think we need some luck?

I think the gold mining stocks need just a little Viagra!

The studies done on and elsewhere on comparisons between the great crash of 29 and today indicate that in 1929 the gold mining stocks rallied in their own bull market. But, consider this, it was a six year rally! Some of us will not live that long.... Look, I'm not a NOW person, but, give me a break!

Mr. Another said at some point in the future that "All paper will burn".
Hey, I feel like a blackened steak now! Whats next?

Oh well, perhaps I should forget my worries, sit back, relax, and think about something very positive, like the Y2K scenario.

(Thu May 21 1998 18:49 - ID#270172)
Being a suspicious person by nature, I ask myself the question "Why would the CB's drive the price of gold down?" Being a pragmatist I tend to look at "market motive" before I look at "conspiracy theory."

I have read in Kitco posts that gold is flowing into Switzerland from Asia. Also, several weeks back I noticed that on days that the Nikkei was closed ( series of holidays ) the price of gold edged up, then when the Nikkei opened again pog went back down. Is it possible that Asian forced sales, ( due to crisis ) and CB threats of sales has kept the price at artificially low rates in order for a shift of wealth from poor Asia to wealthy ( IMF lenders if you wish ) West?

If this were the case, one would not expect pog to edge up significantly until the US$ destabilizes forcing CB's to quit playing. Market models don't seem significant in a situation where "Free Market" is not in effect?


(Thu May 21 1998 18:53 - ID#317193)
Now that you have given us the good news, what's the bad news? : )

Buy some physical, at least you can enjoy looking at it!


(Thu May 21 1998 18:57 - ID#270221)
@The Skeptical Investor
By way of a brief personal introduction, I write an on-line monthly newsletter - The Skeptical Investor - from here in Maritime Canada ( Nova Scotia ) . I thought that some of you might be interested in the May Issue posted a couple of weeks ago. It is mainly about the Euro: I touch upon the matter of ECB gold reserves near the end. The URL is Follow the hotlink from there to the latest Issue. Max

(Thu May 21 1998 19:06 - ID#290118)
What is this I hear...
About Japan and our dear Fed working a deal for Japan to sell a bunch of bonds over this weekend - timed for when our markets can't respond because of the holiday? Might the Fed broker this action? Can they do that?

Dirt - is that what you were alluding to in your 15:38 post? When you advised us to buy GOLD? Has these muckity mucks arranged for the dollar to take a hit so the Yen can recover?

This is all new to me - but that is what I hear.
Keep our ears to the ground.

(Thu May 21 1998 19:13 - ID#263379)
Mr. TYoung, since you asked what the good news is from my perspective is:

"We will experience one of the worlds greatest gold and gold stock rallies that mankind did or ever will experience. The proportions of this rally will outperform well beyond even your wildest rally dreams, leaving the world population in awe, and it's army of stock market analysts bewildered and lost babbling in amazement!"

Well, enough said.....

(Thu May 21 1998 19:14 - ID#218420)
Well done. You mentioned a PM Web page in your article. Do you have the link for that?

Mr. Mick
(Thu May 21 1998 19:16 - ID#345321)
Squirrel - your misquote of Jefferson is "unforgiveable"
You wrote: "As Jefferson put it - from time to time the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots." Wrong. The correct blood to be shed is that of "patriots and tyrants". The two must die together, evidently. FWIW

(Thu May 21 1998 19:22 - ID#432157)
Max Morley can't raise your URL (~~~~~) Can't reproduce that symbole

(Thu May 21 1998 19:30 - ID#230376)

did you get the chance to look at the chart of SWC ? Would value your opinion..

(Thu May 21 1998 19:32 - ID#401460)

URL works, Geoff, I suggest you try "copy" and "paste".


(Thu May 21 1998 19:32 - ID#230376)
@ kitkat

It should be spelled Gin............not with a "J'' ; - )

(Thu May 21 1998 19:35 - ID#190411)
Max Mosely's site
has some good info. He called the sucker rally in Far East markets.
Also has back issues. Highly recomended, good Canadian perspective.
Thanks Mr. Mosely.

(Thu May 21 1998 19:39 - ID#57232)
Skeptical Investor
Max Moseley: It's a pleasure to have you on board! I have read several of your newsletters and enjoy your style. Hope you stick around! Unfortunately, as you have probably noticed, the Kitco world is a bit down in the dumps these days. Our favorite topic is behaving like a limp dishrag, despite the fact that we have just emerged from a two year bear. Part of the problem is that the current scenario is not a simple inflationary one where all can see the value of holding no one else's debt - gold bullion -- too many rolling devaluations all over the world. Unless you happen to be in a country having the devaluation, gold looks like a lousy investment.

I must admit, simply buying gold bullion does look like a better investment these days then buying the higher yield, but more volatile gold stocks.

Incidentally, have you been following the Russian situation? Looks more and more bleak to me. Their markets went down nealy 30% in the last 10 days for no apparent reason. That should cause alot of gold buying in Europe when the Europeans begin to realize what is up -- trouble ahead, unfortunately in a country that knows little else other than communism, and where purges have removed the individuals most likely to bring that country around. Makes me think of the Fatima prophesies.

Welcome aboard -- and I apologize for the lack of a better welcome -- but I think you understand!

(Thu May 21 1998 19:50 - ID#286230)
Go back to the Mosely post--click on the blue IRL and then add the bookmark

(Thu May 21 1998 19:53 - ID#43460)
Tyro your post re the school shooting gives an important lesson
but the lesson has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with the economics of scale in this school of 1350 students. Such news items as school shootings, the flooding of the entire north american romaine lettuce crop, the layoff of 500 garment workers in a single closing factory, the sale of a hundred thousand acres of timberland en bloc with the disoolution of a paper company all have a single thread in common. They demonstrate the western world is rapidly reaching an unsustainable degree of overspecializaton, centralization and depersonalization. IMHO

You will notice that 1350 gives a class size of roughly 340 pupils per grade. In a six period school day this would give roughly ten simultaneous courses per classroom period. Thus it is possible that a given student could go an entire school day and never attend class with the same set of peers nor teacher more than one hour. They would have to jostle with hundreds of others in the cafeteria and rest room. IMHO

Given that the US divorce rate is over 60%, the rate of church attendance is plummeting ( with churches also trending to megalithic size ) and the rate of two worker marriages is well over half a child could conceivably go for weeks without seeing a parent or months or years without one single nurturing outside relationship. They develop into creatures like the character 'Alec' in "The Clockwork Orange", alienated, hedonistic and without human sentiments. IMHO

Which lends credence that western society is close to failing without the deux ex machina of Y2K. Now, if the failure comes from the top down ( per the Y2k conjecture ) as in the fall of Rome, rural areas will be relatively safe. But a bottom up failure, with gradual loss of individuality and economic freedom then gradual starvation with an intact central beaurocracy would prove the opposite. If society fails due to erosion ( in a manner similar to France of the 1700's ) those who remain safest would be the anonymous faces in the crowd at the foot of the guillotine. IMHO

The conjecture then being that 1 ) western society is destined to failure as demonstrated by early failure of economy of size experiments 2 ) such failure would be from the bottom up as opposed to top down as the y2k enthisiasts hope 3 ) the survival needs would be different for a top down and bottom up failure. IMHO

Which then gets to my point and question. In a top down failure the obvious need is for physical PMs, in denominations small enough to form a basis for barter among the citizens in an otherwise working economy. But in a bottom up failure wouldn't there be a need for anonymous, innocuous and fully legitimized ( as opposed to legitimate ) investments such as gold stocks, membership in gold funds ( such as CEF for instance ) et cetera? IMHO

(Thu May 21 1998 19:54 - ID#57232)
Indonesia, Russia
All: I must admit I may have been hoodwinked, and lulled into a false sense of gold/silver bullishness. The resignation of Suharto is positive, but it appears that his replacement is little more than his doormat. Hardly the sort that the Indonesians will rally behind. I should have taken more seriously Jin's joke last night about the competence of Suharto's replacement -- apparenly Al Gore is much more qualified. Perhaps even Danny Quale. Oh well.

On a less positive light, I noticed that the Xau has been showing some rather bearish activity for the last week on an intraday chart -- rising up quickly in the morning, but steadily falling the rest of the day -- not a good sign at all. I didn't spot this till today -- still learning. If gold bullion does not move up soon, we are in for a short - term bath in gold equities.

On the other hand -- something very bullish for gold is slowly taking shape in Russia -- storm clouds slowly gathering for the Europeans.

(Thu May 21 1998 19:56 - ID#43460)
Sorry, the last post should have
been copyrighet by Gagnrad alone. It may become part of my magnum opus one day. Particularly the need to establish both physical and paper investments unless one can anticipate the mode of failure in a revolutionary society.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:01 - ID#316193)
Oldman Mentioned Russian Crime Czars Buying $1Mil. Dollar Homes, Here's More
Russia's Ministry of Internal Affairs ( MVD ) , which is in charge
of combating organized crime, recons that 40 percent of private
business, 60 percent of state-owned enterprises, and more than
half of 1,747 banks are controlled by crime syndicates.

And Clinton urges bailouts!

(Thu May 21 1998 20:05 - ID#286230)
Russian mob also Capitalists

TSE ejects YBM from 300


The Financial Post

The Toronto Stock Exchange booted troubled YBM Magnex International Inc. off its 300 index

yesterday amid questions about why it was there in the first place.

Two sources said the exchange knew of a damning British police investigation into a Russian

mobster with links to YBM before the company's listing was granted in May 1996.

Both said officials felt Canada's largest exchange could be on shaky legal ground in refusing

the listing because no one had been charged with a crime.

As reported in The Financial Post Wednesday, Britain's National Crime Squad concluded in

November 1995 that Russian mob boss Semian Moguilevitch was using Canadian markets to

legitimize money from "large-scale extortion, prostitution, arms dealing and drug trafficking."

Moguilevitch was a director and major shareholder of Arigon Co. Ltd., a Channel Islands

company that was rolled into YBM.

The report said Canadian law enforcement officials had contributed intelligence to the

investigation, code-named Operation Sword.

YBM shares were trading on the Alberta Stock Exchange at the time and didn't receive a TSE

listing for another six months.

The RCMP refused yesterday to discuss what the force had told TSE or Ontario Securities

Commission regulators three years ago, saying the U.S. Attorney's Office in Philadelphia is the

only agency that will be fielding questions on YBM.

Const. Michele Paradis said what the RCMP may have told the TSE -- and when -- is "all part

and parcel" of a U.S. criminal investigation.

"Anything right now that has to do with this investigation, whether it's at the beginning [of YBM]

or at the very end, is part and parcel and could conceivably affect the court case later on,"

Paradis said. "The last thing we want to do right now is jeopardize the court case because of

something we say.

"Anything that could be given in evidence can not be given out."

She said the RCMP has been "assisting" U.S. agencies, which swooped on YBM's

Philadelphia-area headquarters last week and carted away a truckload of documents.

The raid was co-ordinated by the Organized Crime Strike Force of the U.S. Attorney's Office,

and carried out by the FBI with customs and immigration agents on hand.

Meanwhile, YBM broke its silence on the Moguilevitch connection late yesterday, with a

statement saying that while he was one of the original 31 shareholders, "he is not a director or

officer of the company, has never exercised control over the company and has never had any

involvement in the management of the company."

It appears he still holds a stake.

YBM pointed out that charges of conspiracy to handle stolen goods were dropped, and said it

disclosed the proceedings to the TSE and ASE. It did not say British police blamed the

collapse of the case solely on a lack of co-operation from Moscow.

The company's statement also said another Russian mobster, Sergei Mikhailov, is not a

"registered shareholder."

YBM maintains no non-institutional investor has more than 3.2% of its shares, although it's

nearly impossible for anyone to verify how much any investor owns if their shares are held in

street names.

The TSE was not available last evening to comment. But a spokesman said earlier John

Carson, senior vice-president of regulation, had nothing to say yet about a review of the

circumstances surrounding YBM's original listing.

The exchange removed the shares ( ybm/tse ) from the 300 index under a policy that states a

stock's status will be reviewed if it is halted or cease traded for five consecutive days. It said it

valued YBM shares at 0.05 each for index calculation purposes, "since the last traded price

of $14.35 does not reflect recently announced information about the company."

(Thu May 21 1998 20:07 - ID#431116)
Max's URL worked OK for me.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:08 - ID#347235)

(Thu May 21 1998 20:09 - ID#290118)
Mr. Mick - thank you for the clarification.
When I paraphrase someone from my fallible memory I do not use quotation marks or say specifically that it is a quote. Sometimes I take time out from writing to look up the reference - then put "" around the quote.

In the context of which I spoke earlier - preservation of our Liberties may require bloodshed. That is why, in spite of the damage I knew it would do to my business, I pursued local political office and, failing in that, continue to be a pain in the side of those selected targets I feel I can influence {As in the analogy I used earlier of dropping pine cones on the dogs that wish to do me harm}. Far better that we fight in that manner and perhaps take longer to preserve what liberties we can - than have to go to war to recover what we have lost.

Does anyone know of where else to look for confirming info on the Japanese selling our bonds this weekend/Monday? I got the info from a trader here who says Reuters reported the Fed being involved in bond sales for a foreign country. His bet is that it involves Japan.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:13 - ID#347235)
I blame the parents for not giving proper supervision to their children.
My son had a .410 shotgun when he was 12, I supervised him until he was 16 and told him if he was ever stupid with it two things would happen 1. I would throw it away. 2. I woould whip his butt dailey for two weeks. He never did anything stupid with it nd is now a cop in St. Louis.
I am sure that he still thinks I would whip him if he got stupid although I would hate to try he is 6'5" and weighs 250. But he still doesent talk back to me or his mother or my current wife. BTW I never had to hit him
he just thought I would.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:15 - ID#288369)
gagnrad........real fine post, copyrightable for sure. Stirred-once societal soup is now pureed into homogenized humanity.

jtf....some RSA stocks firming quite nicely, though....300 Harmony sold today ( no real sellers left at 5.25 or thereabouts////and D. Deeps is being accumulated in a big fashion, there's something deep-cooking here...deep pockets for sure....

gotta' go, will be back later....excuse please..

STRAD....calling STRAD! come to dinner.....

M. Moseley...WELCOME.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:16 - ID#288295)
I got this from Reuters World @ Drudgereport:
(Thu May 21 1998 20:20 - ID#434108)
JTF/M Moseley, Inflation/Deflation, and eternal gold, & current timing
I appreciate the dialogue here.

It reassures me that I'm not retarded.

I suggest your review of my comments at .... .

See their 'Gold Digest' link.

My introductory comments, from the 2/98 article, are as follows:

A Golden Cure for World-wide Deflation


From Thomas Jefferson, in an address to his

fellow 'founding fathers' of the new nation:

Thomas Jefferson: "If the American people ever

allow the banking system to control their money,

first by inflation, then by deflation; their children

will one day wake up homeless on the continent

their fathers conquered."

The world's financial and monetary systems may

be likened to a gigantic teetering circus-tent. An

when the tent finally collapses. It will not be the

center-post that goes first; it will be the side-posts;

and even the stakes."

The "stakes" are the Asian Tiger economies. The

"side-posts" are the most important trading

partners of the U.S. This includes the strategic

national economies of: Hong Kong/China, Japan,

Canada, Mexico, South America and Europe. The

"center-post" is the U.S. economy, including its

stock markets.

The "tent" is the world-economy, built on a

mountain of artificial money and credit, created out

of thin air, by a politically engineered and

dominated central banking system, that has

mastered the art of legalized counterfeiting. It has

taken generations, to perfect this art and master

this tune, that plays to the drum-beat of billions of

dollars of false wealth created per week.

Not too many years ago, it was against the law to

counterfeit money, including by governments or


And now what: Gold going up?in the midst of

spreading Deflation? How can this be!

I've been visiting the Kitco site for about a year

now; and it is evident from the discussions there,

that most of us are still deluded by, and caught up

in, the artificial Santa-Clause Economy built on the

BIG LIE: money and credit created out of nothing.

This insures an over-extended, artificial, seemingly

benevolent "economic summer" that may last for

generations. All the while the masses

misperceptions grow, while the money-masters of

power, in the world, in control of interest rates, of

credit availability, and of the volume of money

flooding the world.they thus become economic

dictators in hiding.ruling over the ultimate value

of the money you earn, spend, invest, and save for

a 'rainy-day" or retirement, or the kids'' education.

The world over central banks have evolved with

their governments blessings into a quiet, awesome

club of collusion and unbridled power. They hold

in their hands the destinies of nations, and the fate

of millions. Reginald McKenna, a 19th century

banker of England said: "Give me control of a

nation's money, and I care not who makes the


It is, in fact, very natural, for gold to go up, as

deflation intensifies. Just as it is very natural for

gold to go up in inflationary times, as well. That is

because the inflation and deflation are happening

to the paper currency, the artificial money of the

realm. Inflation and deflation do not happen to

gold. And it is artificial, unbacked money and

credit, once it is spawned out across the world,

that ebbs and flows by the billions and trillions,

thus distorting and manipulating the economies of

the world's nations. Once this spreading cancer is

set in motion, the economies and countries grow

increasingly out of balance, and ultimately out of

control. And it almost always starts showing up in

an obvious way with with currency instability,

which was the root of the problem to begin with -

unreal currencies. Just ask the hundreds of

thousands of Asians who have just been laid off,

or reduced to 30% of their previous income, almost


The ignorance, misconceptions and confusion

grow, because we seem to live in enduringly good

times. And the BIG LIE  that artificial money

created out of nothing is real money -- has had

generations of time to take root: in our institutions

of higher learning, in the board rooms of our most

brilliant corporations, at the family dinner table

discussions of what we studied in school today,

and in the not so noble halls of government offices

across our fair land. What we have failed to

understand, or have forgotten, is that the basic

standard, the unit of a nation's money -- the

medium of exchange and store of value -- is the

foundation of, and the fundamental building block,

upon which, a nation's entire economy is built. It is

essential for this unit, this standard of money, to

be freely, willingly , and universally acceptable

because it is stable, real, and can be trusted, by

any and every one.

Historically only gold money, or money and credit

units convertible to and backed by gold, have

endured as real money, immune to both inflation

and deflation. Gold is independent and free of

manipulation and control by any governmental

powers and special interests. John Adams' words

of 200 years ago are just as timely and important

today: "All the perplexities, confusions and

distresses in America arise, not from defects in the

Constitution or confederation, not from want of

honor or virtue, as much as from downright

ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and


Real money, gold, endures as stable and trusted

currency, regardless of governments that rise and

fall, and economies that go through there natural,

moderate, non-manipulated cycles of economic

summer and economic winter. Politicians resist

gold-based money, because it strictly limits them,

and disciplines their lust for power and control,

along with their intimate banking friends. This

means that economies no longer remain in

balance, and ultimately, over-extended economic

summers, are followed by inevitable, and very

painful economic winters. All of this excess to

excess, is unnecessary, and would be avoidable, if

a gold standard money system were established

and honored, among the community of nations.

The brilliant Ludwig von Mises, of the Austrian

School of Economics put it this way: "The

eminence of the gold standard consists in the fact

that it makes the determination of the monetary

unit's purchasing power independent of the

measures of governments. It wrests from the

hands of the "economic czar" their most

redoubtable instrument.. It makes it impossible for

them to inflate. That is why the gold standard is

furiously attacked by all those who expect they will

benefit by bounties from the seemingly

inexhaustible government purse." ( The truth and

wisdom from this master-teacher of true

economics, might help us better understand why

there has been so much media coverage of

reported central bank gold sales, the last year or

two. )

Now, the last several decades of mushrooming

credit-creation world-wide, has led to a debt-ridden

international economy with careening markets and

collapsing paper currencies. This debt-ridden,

artificially propped up, international economy is

symptomized by over-built real-estate, with grossly

inflated values. World-wide, property values are

beginning to feel the effects of spreading deflation.

The recent deflationary free-fall in Hong Kong

property values, will likely spread next to Japan

and China. The deflationary world economy is like

a Titanic, and their are never going to be enough

IMF buckets to bail her out.

Also symptomatic of this international economy

beginning to mire in debt and growing deflationary

momentum, is the overcapacity of industrial and

technological production. This has resulted from

first of all, a glut of easy credit for the asking, and

now, the world is not only awash in red-ink, but

also in a glut of goods and services that most

people don't want, and fewer and fewer can really

afford. These kinds of glaring symptoms are the

recipe for spreading, world-wide deflation, with

ominous implications. When desperate Asian

nations want to import new cars to sell here at half

last year's prices, the protectionism, trade barriers

and trade-wars will be looming right behind.

For lifeboats, we best look to the historical lessons

of gold: gold unassailable, real money, and gold as

a haven of capital preservation in times of

economic crisis and currency turmoil. We got

ourselves into this mess by allowing our

governments and special interests to divorce our

money from gold backing and convertibility. At one

time, our currency was originally as good as gold,

a virtual receipt for real money. It was even

printed, right there on each and every U.S. piece

of currency: "payable to the bearer on demand in

gold". It's enough to make our grandparents

generation roll over in their graves.

Deflation happens to artificial currencies and credit

instruments at certain times, just as inflation does

at other times, because they can be controlled and

manipulated by the powers that be. Naturally

stable economies, based on real money, are

immune to inflation and deflation, and the powers

that be -- their hands are tied, by the immunity of,

and independence of gold. I have an early 1930s'

chart of HM overlaying the DJIA. In 1973, I was

giving economics seminars in the SF Bay Area

entitled: "What Makes the U.S. Economy

Tickand Why it is a Ticking Time-Bomb." The

economy's turned out to have a longer fuse than

I'd figured/surmised, at that time. But now, the fuse

is, indeed, running out. From early 1930 to 1932

Homestake Mining appreciated approximately

500% while the Dow was crashing in wave after

deflationary wave, wiping out the livelihoods and

fortunes of millions who never knew what hit

themsort of the way growing numbers of

people are feeling in Asia. And the "Asian

Contagion" is spreading, regardless of our

self-absorbed, insular, wishful thinking.

In my editorial./article of 2/98 I attempt to explain that regardless of inflation, or deflation, that gold will increase, which-ever

economic momentum......holds sway/accelerates.

For my more recent timing tools/suggestions

Feb. '98 ....... : --

that gold rises.......

whether by "inflation" ...

or ... "deflation".

, might perhaps, be helpful to you all, depending on open-minded-ness.

Gold is but a mirror

of what is happening

with the "economy",

the political 'czars',

the currencies - "of the realm" - 'and day'.


Here, as follows, is one of my short-term technical-timing

suggestions, for trading and investing decisions of timing.

Best wishes,

David Blair Macrory

(Thu May 21 1998 20:24 - ID#153102)
don't you stop drinking flouridated water. It might help.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:26 - ID#43460)
Retired Soldier re parents
Would you agree that a society which not only allows parents to be weak and ineffective but encourages them to be so ( in contrast to your own good parenting skills ) is deliberately programming a bottom up failure for the society? Could it be that the failure mode is built in to make the citizens more amenable to ( and indeed require ) social controls by a progressively more powerful government? And as a corollary the use of 'paper gold' products might not be as dangerous relative the real thing as the y2k fans allege? ( Purely conjecture on my part. Standard disclaimers apply. )

(Thu May 21 1998 20:27 - ID#267344)
Lelaand - Russian crime syndicates
From what I gather, the Russian tax code is impossible and discourages ligitimate business. I would assume that these "crime syndicates" are the sole reason that the Russian economy has lasted this long.
- c

(Thu May 21 1998 20:29 - ID#290118)
Monday may prove interesting.
The dollar dropped amid talk that the Fed was selling bills under the table for a customer account. That talk inspired fear that the Bank of Japan might be trying to raise cash for yen-supportive intervention in the foreign exchange market.

Prices of U.S. Treasuries fell on Thursday afternoon amid talk the Federal Reserve had sold Treasuries on behalf of a customer, possibly the Bank of Japan, dealers said.

The Bank of Japan on Thursday declined to comment on market talk that it was selling U.S. Treasuries, possibly to prepare for new currency market interventions.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:31 - ID#340459)
@Liberty 18:46, The Strange reaction of Mining Stocks since 2 days relative to POG moves, Many
PM Mining Stocks have strangely gone down on heavy volumes despite firm up moves by Bullion, Baffles me.

A lot us own more PM stocks than physical and as such I look for your comments and seek whether you have also felt this strange reaction. Is it in empathy of other sectors or an alarming signal or What ?

The current POG is 301.20 now.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:35 - ID#248180)
Kaplan's Investor 1 site " India Gold Demand UP"
COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities ended little changed on Monday, while precious metals were modestly higher. Gold gained $1.20, silver rose 4.5 cents, platinum rallied $2.30, and palladium surged $7.30. Weakness in bonds caused some money to leave fixed income securities for precious metals.

Demand for gold in India in the first quarter of 1998 was 190.7 tonnes, up 17% from the first quarter of 1997, and marking a new record high. Total gold demand in India for calendar year 1997 was 737 tonnes, up 45% over 1996, and also marking a new record high.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:41 - ID#316193)
You have a good point. I'm sure that we'll learn more as
the Russian problems unfold. The next domino?

(Thu May 21 1998 20:49 - ID#288369)
@Promey's promo.........
Thank you my friend.

(Thu May 21 1998 20:52 - ID#267344)
BRACE YOURSELVES, THE US IS GOING MAD - could get pretty unhealthy around here!!!
- c

Mo in To
(Thu May 21 1998 20:53 - ID#347205)
Russian Mobsters on the Street...
Should we be surprised that the TSE listed YBM in the face of its suspicious connections? After all, these are the same clowns who allowed Bre-X their listing first on TSE 300, then on the prestigious TSE 35 even though they had not filed a prospectus etc...etc....Well the beat just goes on and on, buyer beware! I am bemused but not surprised.
Mo in To

(Thu May 21 1998 21:08 - ID#153102)
By any honest measure, the top down and bottom up failure modes have already been operating in America for some time.

They are the result of a government war on the people, a war having the aim to drive the people into debt, dependance, and ignorance.

I enjoyed the thoughts you shared, but I suggest that separating government and society in your thinking will yield additional insights.
Government acts by coercion. society is voluntary. Government presses your men into military service; society may or may not invite young men to the ball. Government is force; society is persuasuion.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:11 - ID#253418)
There has been some request for a discussion of SWC's chart formation. As Preacher hasn't weighed in I'll offer my 2 cents worth. Results not guaranteed.

Resistance seems intense at 27 7/8, failing to move through that level puts in place a pretty ugly double top. A cyclical trading pattern has been observed whereby the price peaks in this time period on a yeraly basis and then declines. This has undobtably been associated with Russian delivery delays this year and in the past. SWC is a much better company than it was a year and two years back. I calculate their earning this year will come in at 88 cents a share and $2 next year given current prices for PD and PT. As this earning growth becomes accepted the cyclical nature of SWC's price pattern will deminish.

Furthermore to this point once the Russians do deliver ( if they do this year ) users of PD and PT will stockpile maintaining near current price levels. Given the markets experience with PD this year I do not foresee a return to below $250 PD for any protracted period.

My guess is that SWC will swing between 22 & 28, assuming deliveries of PD are made before September.Big gains by SWC are not likly until next year when their $135 60% of production hedge is worked off. At 22 SWC will be selling for about 25 times my estimate of their final "98 earnings and at 10 times my '99 estimate. Thus the stock is in a trading range being maintained at the top by firm PD and PT prices, subject to a decline should the Russians deliver and the market take it badly.

$22-24 represents a very good buying opportunity. While the lower end of that range represents a 20% correction there is a reasonable chance the Russian deliveries will be delayed further and precious metal mining stocks will find new favor rendering the move of getting out and getting back in rather risky for those who want to maintain exposure. On Balance volumn and money flow are still positive for this stock. Rallies have been on greater volumn than declines.

I personnally, I rate SWC a hold with some shortterm risk, a buy between 24 and 22, a sell at 34 on any rapid rise from here, and over all a great long term hold with 50 my objective for 12 months out given just current or slightly lower Pd and PT prices.

Those are my ideas. interested in others.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:12 - ID#248180)
Who does one Blame for Russia's Problems??
Who's to Blame for Russia's Crisis?

MOSCOW -- ( Reuters ) Russia's economic turmoil prompted new allegations on Wednesday that unidentified backstage forces were orchestrating chaos, but then no crisis would be complete in Moscow without a conspiracy theory.

The central bank must wish it had a dollar for every version of events bandied about by the press in the past week.

The financial crisis has created fertile ground for finger-pointing and speculation, not just in the financial markets and in the press, but in the corridors of the Kremlin itself.

President Boris Yeltsin, after meeting youthful Prime Minister Sergei Kiriyenko and his new government on Wednesday, added his voice to the chorus of vague allegations.

"Someone deliberately wants to wreck ( the work of the government ) ," Yeltsin said, adding that the government needed strong nerves.

As Asian-related jitters unnerved investors in Russia, and domestic economic worries gained a momentum of their own, few would dispute that Russia has been the victim of a cruel combination of market circumstances.

But many Russian commentators, not to mention officials, see hidden hands conspiring to make life difficult for Kiriyenko, 35, who was confirmed in his post on April 24.

Central Bank Chairman Sergei Dubinin blamed the financial turmoil on unnamed Western speculators -- comments reminiscent of those made by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in the wake of his country's currency problems.

The press has delved even deeper into the murky world of Russian politics and business, where rival financial groups are seen orchestrating virtually every important aspect of life.

The pro-government newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta saw more than coincidence in the financial crisis, which erupted at the same time as a miners' protest across the country.

"In the White House ( government headquarters ) , they do not rule out calculated games by speculators aimed at lowering prices of state securities and the ruble," the paper said.

"Very many unfavorable factors have come together at once," it said, adding that powerful oil and metals producers were thirsting for a drop in the ruble to boost export revenues.

The Izvestia daily, in which oil giant LUKoil has a big stake, agreed there was a remarkable concurrence of events.

"All at once, on several fronts, things are happening, each of which would be capable on its own of shaking the government of the most prosperous country.

"It would be naive to say that the timing of all of this is just pure coincidence. Such a quantity of coincidences only happens in a bad detective story," it said.

But Izvestiya said the previous government of Victor Chernomyrdin, dismissed by Yeltsin on March 23, had to share some blame for the shaky state of the economy.

It mentioned emerging market problems linked to southeast Asia and low world oil prices, which have hit Russian exports.

And it suggested that the problems on the markets were also partially the responsibility of Russia's big financial groups. "Without the participation of the leading players nothing happens there ( on the markets ) ," it said.

Sevodnya, which is controlled by tycoon Vladimir Gusinsky's Most group, said financial speculators were seeking to drive down prices of high-yielding treasury bills.

But it mentioned another contributing factor for the stock market crisis -- a law adopted by parliament limiting foreign ownership in national electricity firm EES.

"Along with other factors, it is this particular document which is responsible for the market fall," it said.

EES shares, the market bellwether, have been leading the market downwards since Yeltsin signed the controversial law before the slide started.

Rossiiskaya Gazeta said Western investors wanted to make Russia dependent on foreign credits, with shares in Russian enterprises such as EES taken as collateral.

As the newspaper's theory had it, the stock market was being pushed down ahead of this month's planned privatization of Rosneft, the last big oil enterprise still in state hands. (  ( c ) 1998 Reuters )

(Thu May 21 1998 21:13 - ID#347235)
You bet your sweet @-- I do!!!!! Ever since social workers started running schools and everyone else's lives this country has been going down hill. Social workers are a bunch of commiecrats ( read liberal democrats ) who are educated far beyond their intelligence who think thay are smarter than the rest of us. And think they have all the answers. Dont get me started----it aint purty as my redneck cousin would say.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:24 - ID#413109)
Second the NOTION
One, maybe more, posters have taken the action in gold and gold
stocks to be bullish long term, and I must agree.
Many here, I being one, are not very patient types, and want to see
their investments show a big profit fast. Well that ain't the way
the world turns, and "keeping the faith" is.
Check out this chart-
Compare it to the sideways ( distribution pattern of long term bonds,
the dollar index, and foreign currencies, even indecies to a degree,
then compare that to gold and gold related stocks, in a relative side
ways pattern at low levels ( accumulation ) .
THIS FOLKS IS BULLISH for golds. The larger the pattern, and the longer
it takes, the higher up we will go.
A tall structure, I believe, requires a sound, well developed foundation
LOOK AT THE LONG TERM, and not the hourly, daily jiggles.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:28 - ID#290118)
Hopefully Y2K compliant alternative to current communications.
Motorola's Iridium at

(Thu May 21 1998 21:35 - ID#317193)
Thank you for the response. Please, Tom is the name. Yes, the positive is present and at hand. Smile and enjoy this life and time no matter that which we all will/must endure.


(Thu May 21 1998 21:35 - ID#255190)
Just a quicky & see ya tomorrow
Children need love and discipline. When they are neglected or abused, when their homes are destroyed, then many of them turn to self hatrid and end up ruining their young lives till the day they die. A very few in America turn to violence. It is truly unfortunate that guns are within reach to often.

America has idolized its self rights to the point of self destruction. This is one of the signs. The other is the abandonment of responsibility. This creeping degeneration must be confessed and rejected or we will fall as all others have before us.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:36 - ID#27341)
Third the notion
Just look at the world around you,Dept,Over capacity,Currencies,Social instability,all it will take to break the camels back is the US stock market to go.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:37 - ID#34761)
The Top Is In - Dow/S&P/Nasdaq
A rounded top has formed in the equity markets. The internals look sick. The markets have ignored absymal savings rates, accelerating trade deficits, and speculative excesses probably never equaled before on Wall Street ( not worth iterating, it's been done ad nauseum ) .
My guess: something like a 1000 point Dow retracement beginning next Tuseday. That might pop the bubble.
I don't have a good fuzzy on P.M.'s, maybe once more down some before silver is a screaming buy, gold looks good around $300. Both seem like if you buy here you will think you made a good buy in 3 months.
Remember, though, this is free advise.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:43 - ID#190411)
Thanks for your view of SWC. It sure behaves as you say.
If you have anything more to offer in the future, I would like to hear it.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:44 - ID#254201)
EB, Newtron, Straddler, Silver
EB-Good luck on your trade, I tend to stay away from options so I assume your strategy is sound. Newtron-I focus on July silver because it has the larger open interest hence more players truer prices. But if you prefer Dec. just wait for your price in the July contract then buy or sell a Dec contract instead. Straddler-I don't know who Veneroso is so I can't comment on his forcasts. Silver - I would like to see and expect to see a sucessful test of the July 5.10-5.05 area before we get a new leg up. Could be tomorrow with thin markets a sharp break down wouldn't be a surprise. A close under 5.00 could be a problem.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:45 - ID#288369)
Patience....I am the best "bench warmer" you'll ever have on your team...I just sit and watch the contest, keep score and wait, and wait and wait to play, and then I PLAY!.....I think the most revealing, insightfully powerful statement that I have heard in many years regarding investment philosophy....was uttered recently my Mr. Warren Buffett..."I have waited 20 years to purchase silver". To paraphrase ANOTHER, I ( STUDIO ) have thought long and hard about Mr. Buffett's statement. And I know now is the time to buy silver and gold...and all due to the courtesy of the "misguided" goldless central banks....THANK YOU! What's a bank without gold and silver?...Nothing more than a newspaper plant.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:51 - ID#43460)
clone, sorry your URL's won't work unless you give us your NYT password
FWIW Actually, the US crime rate has gone down steadily since the Republicans got control of the majority of state governorships and both houses of Congress. And the actual numbers of US firearms related accidental deaths children and adolescents is about 1/4 of the numbers who die as the result of autoerotic asphyxiation ( hanging or suffocation while masturbating ) . But it is advantageous for some people to pretend that it isn't so. In the Kitco world I wonder if you might not get more milage from questioning the mindset which would propose equally inferior medical care for all comers. IMHO

Going back to my ponderings on the viability of maintaining paper gold investments in a changing national society, I tend to be biased in that direction, particularly in regards to SA stocks and my Canadian gold fund. IMHO

(Thu May 21 1998 21:52 - ID#288295)
INPATHIQUE latest update Giddyup.......GO!
Short-term ( closeup ) chart: chart:

(Thu May 21 1998 21:53 - ID#66136)
MIDAS Finally time for some baseing. Help from Copper and the Dollar today.
The RSA group continues to show more strength than NA though HM is acting well. Several issues getting oversold as strong down monentum is just starting to ease. Fear a short false breakout if we don't get some base building before a jump. Uptrends still well in place though most are below MA. Still room to lower band on most. Let the mkt tell you what to do and remember only one trade gets the bottom. We will need more support from silver early on and still may have to go after some stops. Patience will be rewarded at this point.

(Thu May 21 1998 21:53 - ID#288295)
INPATHIQUE Shor-term chart

(Thu May 21 1998 21:54 - ID#288295)
INPATHIQUE Long-term chart

(Thu May 21 1998 22:01 - ID#270221)
@The Skeptical Investor
kitkat: go to:-
It is just an intro. to PM investing, but I slipped in some educational material about the War on Gold!

(Thu May 21 1998 22:03 - ID#153102)
@Bump Ta Bump @Squirrel
I got an e-mail from Truth in Media about an ex-Navy officer named Lord who has written a Y2K book and is holding financial seminars for investors.

Y2K awareness is going to snowball from here. Kitco was earlier, but the news is spreading. I hold to my prediction of a movie release.

I think everyone who has gotten to the point of taking Y2K seriously would agree that their mentality has been changed by the process. Thinking through the possible consequences of Y2K leads toward more self-reliance. Emerson wrote a good essay on that topic that used to be taught to pre-Dependance Americans. I think panic will set in at the top.

In many places America is not the society it was. There are a great many Alec's of Clockwork Orange out there. They will predate.

@Squirrel I went through the same thoughts you posted here, but a while ago. If there were a way to migrate to a new Freeland, I would. Believe it or not, the best candidate location is Puerto Rico. Because with one referendum there, you could have sovereignty. But, there is no way I know of to coalesce the people you would want to meet there. You can be an expatriate like John D or you can work for the best and hope for the best where you were born.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:07 - ID#57232)
Thanks for the Updates
APH: Your input is always appreciated. I am still long gold and silver stocks ( intermediate term ) , though it sure is tough right now with the apparent weakness in precious metals. We are at a turning point of some kind. I think something is afoot with the dramatic drop in the US dollar today.

Usually the US markets are bullish just before national holidays, but not this time.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:12 - ID#341234)
Mutual Fund Inflows
To: Reify, Maverick
Is this the end of the stock market bubble? I really thought the DOW would go to at least 9800 within the next month before it crashed. Maybe not. Check out the cash flows into mutual funds at:
Choose Current Weekly News Highlights
Money into equity mutual funds dropped from 4.2 billion the week before last to 0.4 billion last week. Will it rebound this week or go negative?

(Thu May 21 1998 22:15 - ID#287193)
@ Allen(USA) and friends.......
...have read all of your 256 verses.....
but look at this:

these few tell all.....don't you agree !!


(Thu May 21 1998 22:16 - ID#341234)
Y2K on 20/20
I heard at work that 20/20 will have a story about Y2K tomorrow night. I have not seen the promo myself, but if this is true, it is a must see.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:17 - ID#253418)
Asian Australian gold??
What's happening down under and under the cloud of Indonesia - any gold quotes.

Russian situation bears watching - to say nothing of the Pakistan and Indian boarder. Thinking now the price of gold will react positively to crisis. Watching those South African golds - happened to represent part of that 300 share volumn in Harmony ( HGMCY ) today. I hope the selling is drying up. Talk about a low volumn correction!!!

Seems one of Fidelity's gold funds will be able to start buying RSA golds - like to see them fly. As pointed out they have better value/fundlementals than the NA but the associated risk of being in RSA.

I wish somebody would explain to me why somebody with silver would lend it out for 2% a year. Guess they want to get some revenue or interest off their holding, but given the fear that there is a huge 800 million possible short position in silver don't think I would. It's be like lending my car in the middle of a mass exodus.

Somebody - explain this to me.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:18 - ID#57232)
The War on Gold
Max Moseley: Do you know if Antony C. Sutton is still around? I think he would have some interesting insight into what is happening with gold and the Euro, as well as the battle between the US/IMF and the BIS.

By the way, do you have any idea what Antony Sutton was referring to when he described the 'Road to Ramboullet' conference in the 70's? Apparently the US had some sort of debt due the BIS at that time, and the BIS called in their chips, forcing the US and the IMF to stop seling gold, and devalue the dollar.

I would sure like to know what the BIS had over the US. Some missing gold that the BIS know about?

Thanks in advance.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:20 - ID#270221)
@The Skeptical Investor
JTF - many thanks for your welcome. It is appreciated. I am watching Russia but have no insight on the situation. As for gold, after many months as a bear, I recently turned 'cautiously bullish'. Havn't changed my mind on that: present very weak behaviour is not at all at odds with what is to be expected after such a beating down.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:22 - ID#284255)
What is 20/20?

Could you please post the commentary here, when it comes out?

(Thu May 21 1998 22:30 - ID#34761)
Fred - End of Bubble
I used the word 'may'. Making an unqualified statement that this nearly 16 year bull market is over is beyond us mortals. The masses regard any drop of 1000 points magnitude ( about 9% ) as a buying opportunity, so unless such a drop were fed by other shocks ( economic, political, astronomic ) , a bounce would be expected, up to possibly retesting the 9200 area. But my gut feeling is the top's in.
I realize that if mutual fund inflows turn back up, this won't happen now; but they are trailing indicators, the public doesn't get the numbers until after the fact. So, I expect, after the markets dump, we'll be told mutual funds had outflows. Surprise.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:31 - ID#34761)
Fred - End of Bubble
I used the word 'may'. Making an unqualified statement that this nearly 16 year bull market is over is beyond us mortals. The masses regard any drop of 1000 points magnitude ( about 9% ) as a buying opportunity, so unless such a drop were fed by other shocks ( economic, political, astronomic ) , a bounce would be expected, up to possibly retesting the 9200 area. But my gut feeling is the top's in.
I realize that if mutual fund inflows turn back up, this won't happen now; but they are trailing indicators, the public doesn't get the numbers until after the fact. So, I expect, after the markets dump, we'll be told mutual funds had outflows. Surprise.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Thu May 21 1998 22:37 - ID#384350)
Geoffs, to get the symbol "~"
...HOLD down the "alt" key and type 1,2,6 then release for symbol "~"

(Thu May 21 1998 22:42 - ID#307271)
Children out of control
I refuse to blame BC for all our ills; however, one major reason for loss of control over adolescents is the blatant lack of culpable authority from the very top of our nation down to the grass roots. Young men in transition between boyhood and manhood look to men of strong character, properly ordained and equipped to lead and to give direction to their lives.

Since the liberal PC mindset bought lock-stock-and-barrel by the American public allows for no such figures to emerge, neither in the school system nor in the body politic at large, many teens are left to test the envelope in seeking acceptable mores. Turnkey kids often find authority figures only on the boob tube in the form of gun-toting revenge driven gendarmes. In the pre-PC days between WWII and Nam, nobody questioned even the colloquial authority of a schoolteacher in his or her classroomthe teacher ruled with absolute authority and respect. Even the principal did not usurp the rule of the teacher in front of the students.

A legal system has evolved which greatly profits from rampant divorce and then brutally emasculates the fathers. This new authority contemptuously strips the children away from their fathers and then hunts the fathers down like common thieves and jails them as kidnappers when they try to return as proper authority over their children.

Certainly some fathers and other authority figures of the old system were guilty of abuse, but with the fruits of the Fatherless and Authority-less PC System quite visible before our very eyes, we need to turn and return to some of our forefathers ways. Sometimes men have to be men and say,  No more of this nonsense! Let the fathers turn to their children and the children to their fathers once more. Allow men to be fathers, teachers to teach with authority and leaders with character and respect to re-emerge into the body politic.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:42 - ID#288295)
JTF @ Antony C. Sutton
You mentioned Antony Sutton - I wasn't able ( yet ) to dig up a biography on him, but as you will see from the titles of some of his works, he is probably very well hidden if he is alive......"Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler" "America's Secret Establishment" "The Best Enemy Money Can Buy" "Federal Reserve Conspiracy" "Trilaterals Over America" .... sounds like he would fit right in here at Kitco, eh?

(Thu May 21 1998 22:42 - ID#34761)
Signing off - (used a computer, 1000 points is a 10.8% drop).
Must have flunked math !

(Thu May 21 1998 22:45 - ID#57232)
Logging off!
sharefin: Hope your eagle eyes are watching the US markets. The US dollar dropping 1% in one day is certainly worrisome. More of the same could be a prelude to major trouble weeks to months later. Might be Japan is still pouring cash down that bottomless pit.

20/20 is a US one hour documentary type news show, usually covering about 4 controversial ( but generally mainstream ) subjects. This show gets alot of attention in the US. Remember the Kathleen Willey bombshell? I'm pretty sure that was 20/20. The fact that y2k even got consideration means that some media specialists think it is newsworthy.

Just wait till the Clinton/US satellite/Chinese missle story gets on 20/20! But -- this is probably too hot to handle -- for now, at least.

I heard from a native South American professional today that only Chile and Argentina are doing well. He tells me that the Brazilians are running scared. He knew little about Mexico and Venezuela.

Please take care -- the Indonesia situation is apparently only on hold, with a Suharto doormat for president.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:46 - ID#369174)
@ Zeke
Hear! Hear!!

(Thu May 21 1998 22:55 - ID#153102)
@The Controllable & The Uncontrollable
Disaster movies feature the uncontrollable as the ultimate villain. The asteroid or Godzilla come from nowhere to disrupt the serene routine of ultra-conventional life. No film maker ever shows those people who would be cheering for Godzilla because he distracts the State and Local police from predating on them.

The United States of America has been conquered and occupied by the District of Columbia for so long and so thoroughly that except in extreme circumstances nothing is uncontrollable by the puppet masters in the Federal Establishment. The uncontrollable is going to come from off shore.

What can't be controlled is payments. If people won't pay, the IMF just leaves town until someone comes along who will make them start paying again. Another uncontrollable is acceptance of greenbacks. But most of the world is as easily corrupted as were the State governments in the USA. Greenbacks for benefits like roads, dams, electrification are irresistible to poor nations. Even if usury is attached. So, by throwing greenbacks at the world, the USG has minimized the problem of acceptance. But, it is still an uncontrollable. People in the streets are uncontrollable. So, changes of government are incontrollable. Witness the fall of the Shah. Corruption is uncontrollable. Russia and Japan and dozens of other countries are proof of that. But, influence over corruption can be bought. Usually with only greenbacks.

As it happens it appears that risk in a floating rate currency milieu is uncontrollable. The uncontrollable risk of derivatives is symptom, not cause.

But there is nothing so uncontrollable as a deadline. That's not negotiable.

(Thu May 21 1998 22:56 - ID#57232)
Janet Reno strikes again -- refuses FBI request for new
indpendent counsel to investigate Clinton/US satellite/China missle situation.

I'll bet that this time she has stirred up a hornets nest. Why did the

FBI ask for the independent counsel? This is new. I wonder how long she can control the floodgates on this one. If this keeps up, there may be a clamoring to remove Janet Reno.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Thu May 21 1998 22:56 - ID#384350)
Here is an interesting article on the US fluoridation project:

Also, you might want to avoid hot steamy showers as gases such as chlorine et al, are then released from the water.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:04 - ID#153102)
Yes, government's war on the people is a war on the fathers. I guess my posts explaining the nature of martial law were lacking in clarity.
You wrote "A legal system has evolved which greatly profits from rampant divorce and then brutally emasculates the fathers."
I would simply amend that to read "An illegal system has evolved ..."

(Thu May 21 1998 23:05 - ID#210114)
Bobbing for Gold
POG bobbing around $US 300. ECB announcement still the key. Waiting patiently.........

(Thu May 21 1998 23:06 - ID#57232)
OK, Janet Reno!
Don't you live in the USA? Are you happy that the executive branch currently in office has done more to destabilize world peace than the last four presidents combined? How do you like knowing that those Chinese missles aimed at you ( and me ) are now much more reliable and accurate thanks to Loral et al, and WJC?

I guess we should ask the question differently: what countries did not have the opportunity to upgrade their nuclear weapons capability? Did we miss any? Any more campaign contributions still in the pipeline?

I sure would like to know how you sleep at night.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Thu May 21 1998 23:08 - ID#384350)
mozel et al, Puerto Rico
I have read the stories about men who have unknowingly taken flights with stopovers in Puerto Rico. They have been taken off the planes and flown to the US where they were thrown in prison.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:18 - ID#290118)
And they wonder why, at forty-something, I never married or had kids.
Given all that is coming unglued and to top it off we have Zeke saying below what I've known for decades.
"A legal system has evolved which greatly profits from rampant divorce and then brutally emasculates the fathers. This new authority contemptuously strips the children away from their fathers and then hunts the fathers down like common thieves and jails them as kidnappers when they try to return as proper authority over their children."
Call me pessimistic. Call me paranoid. Call me solo.
Without mate or family, I have little stake in this world's future.
That is what I have allowed them to take from me. Hope!
Reckon I'll have some Golden and be in a better mood tomorrow.
( And I better quit listening to the news too. ) Bye.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:24 - ID#369174)
@Gagnrad; All
gagnrad: Your 19:53 is a MUST read!! Thanks -- I have been semi-consciously trying to figure out the question raised by your last ( ? ) paragraph -- will it be bottom up, or top down disintegration? Both? I think for humanity long-term, bottom up will be better. Short, violent chaos, then rebuild societal structures. Otherwise, we could see a long period of "1984" type controlled society. The Bible predicts the latter.

All: Is it me, or did the world suddenly get a notch or two higher on the "craziness scale" in the last couple of days. This past week reminds me of the dead quiet before a big thunderstorm rolls in, and now we can hear the thunder and the wind is starting to blow.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:27 - ID#153102)
That's interesting. Puerto Rico has a mysterious legal relationship to the United States. I think the IRS operates out of Puerto Rico.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:28 - ID#238422)
clone\Russian tax code is one of the main reasons
You got it right. When state wants 90% of your profits,
everybody would go underground....or would quit...

(Thu May 21 1998 23:29 - ID#307271)
Yes, sick bird ( ill eagle ) . But bad government ( one that is not by-the-people, of-the-people and for-the-people ) is simply aberrated authority...or perhaps abrogated authority. Since we have failed to pick up the gavel of authority even in our homes and most certainly at the highest level, the authority we as a people once ordained has become a Frankenstein Authority. Now, if a mother spanks junior for running amok in Walmart, the Frankenstein Authority might arrest her for abuse...and so forth. Of course no intelligent PC mom would dream of correcting junior like that, so now junior starts to think, "Hmmmmm, wonder if I had a pistol"...and so on. The Authority problem pervades our entire society: Lack of Authority and the lack of respect for Authority IS the problem.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:41 - ID#288157)
JTF--Odd coincidence that sitting in front of me is the BIS
data re gold transfer to US: in 1939 6,106; in 1940 11,501 for a total of 17,607 ( in kilogrammes of fine gold )

FT story--
CME begins ECU futures trading... Trading in European currency unit futures and options began on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange

Now this is interesting because there is a question about the legal status of the ECU: Nonetheless, it is not certain that the official ECU would be recognized as legal money under New York law. Assuming that ECU obligations governed by New York law are not monetary obligations but rather creatures of contract...
And that refers to the official or public ECU; there is a private ECU too! Oh my...
Doesnt THIS open up a number of fascinating problems ...

Gold will begin to be valued because IT IS INERT!!! {:- ) )

(Thu May 21 1998 23:45 - ID#280222)
DROOY pro-feasibility
JOHN DISNEY: Can you give me any enlightenment on the Crown Jewels ( South Wits ) project ( of Durban Deep ) which ( study ) is scheduled for completion in the December quarter of '98? There seems to be a bit of a hush about it ( and the name is intriguing )

(Thu May 21 1998 23:50 - ID#153102)
Under common-law the Father is the head and the authority. The government of common-law enforced the authority of the Father in the courts.

But, all that was overturned after the District of Columbia conquered and occupied the country and imposed martial law. I think there is a lot of respect for authority, just that it is compelled respect the brute authority of power and not taught respect for the uplifting authority of earthly law conformed to the higher moral law revealed by a loving God.

John B__A
(Thu May 21 1998 23:51 - ID#77133)
I don't look forward to another silver plunge but to have real confidence in an intermediate bottom, a quick but successful test of the 5.10 area would do it.

(Thu May 21 1998 23:59 - ID#342376)
Euro off to bad start?
With the criticism over the first President of the ECB stepping down half way through the term, and the hologram missing for the EURO, I would think the Pro-Gold advocates ( France, Germany and Italy? ) will have their voice heard.