Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:02 - ID#252391)
Farfel . . do you read me . are you out there . .
What an out pouring - wouldn't do to come back to quickly though - then some people might think you were not of conviction, and we know you to be quite the other way.

I have an idea, it would be great for everybody new and old to the site. RERUNS!!!! Thanks to Bart's computer you cold go back and pick out a few of your finer pieces and bring them forward. "The Best of Farfel" What you do is post from another computer, obviously, under a differenct name. Actually, the newposter could give do a little critic, occasionally.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:06 - ID#43349)
Sitting around
The weekends are the hardest part. Waiting
for the markets to open. Waiting to see if
the charts will be right. Looking through
diverse news sources hoping to see something
that might have an impact on monday.

Did Japan go bankrupt? Are the Russians still
alive? Did Starr find a smoking gun in Clintons

I guess I could go watch the drivel on TV, but
it's just not the same as watching the charts
move and wishing Bart woukd get that damn thing

(Sat May 30 1998 00:12 - ID#342376)
In tribute to Farfel....
I have been waiting for a small property to sell so that I can make my first purchase of the real thing and not just paper. It looks like I'll be buying physical gold next week. Although it's my first purchase, I'd like to say "I don't care, I'm buying more" Come on back Farfel, you'll be missed.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:19 - ID#252391)
Gollum . . you speak for be brother
maybe it's sister. Are there any women on this site??? I wonder if there aren't some perading as men.

Things to ponder on a weekend.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:24 - ID#257148)
Kiwi, sharefin, The Rugby Channel
The Canterbury Crusaders win Super 12 Championship 20 to 13. First time on Eden park they've beaten the Blues, who were the reigning champions. Crusaders started this International Rugby Championship in last place and have romped home to victory in a brilliant final. Adrian Cashmore has just successfully kicked 20 out of 20 consecutive goals and conversions, ANOTHER record. Rugby wins again. ( um, I mean rugby gets the gold, eh? )

(Sat May 30 1998 00:30 - ID#43349)
This seems more like a group of hardened
mercinaries sitting around in some dive in
wartime Beruit. I doubt there's many women
in this crowd.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:31 - ID#190411)
This is not the time or the place to retreat to some other site that is more amenable to defeat.
Get up man. Who among us hasn't gotten waxed in this market?
Stand back for a while if you must.
Our little sorryass commodity is the money of thousands of years.
Mozel has made it abundantly clear that the gold in the hand is the only ownership of money that there is.
FWIW kaplan's site predicted the shot term blowoff, which you dismissed.
He was bearish on silver. ( right again ) .
He also called, in an e-mail to me, the decline in platinum.
A trifecta, hell he's almost as good as Disney's brother.
I think that you might have the same problem as many of us here have; If there is no standard in money, then there can be no long term planning in our businesses, or lives.
Either our vision of monetary truth prevails, or the jaws of leviathan crush us.
Someone brought some fat chick to our party, but, she's still primping in the ladies room.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:31 - ID#257148)
NOONE here but us Gigantors
jims, you just outed me, I'm perading as a man. Actually there are several females who grace this site, some of them are still talking to me! I'm hoping to hear from others who want to share ham sandwiches post-apocalyptically sometime too.

Just that the testosterone gets quite intense here, kinda like a scrum room after a big match, and the fems slide out tactfully.

Gig gig gigantor

gig gig gidget_aur@tor

(Sat May 30 1998 00:33 - ID#287186)
The Great Powers do not want GOLD to go to 4 digits.
They can control it better where it is. Keeping the price down enables them to control larger fractions of the world stocks. {as per my post of Fri May 29 1998 19:52}
They keep the leash short so they can yank it anytime they please to get our attention.
They can't use a high price to hurt gold users for there are no gold users - other than for electronic contacts or other very high value added applications. Jewelry does not count - it is a luxury.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:35 - ID#286224)
@Farfel - small voice, big request: Stick around!

(Sat May 30 1998 00:39 - ID#34857)
F* - Smaller voice, bigger request ... Stay.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:42 - ID#170211)
Vronsky, about your Pegasus post...
You write that PGU managament is trying to look out for its own hide at the expense of the shareholders. I'm not a shareholder, but I do know management members. When one loses 2/3 of one's financial team ( CFO and controller ) , and risks losing other very key members of the executive team, why not try to create incentives to keep those key, core members of the team? If you just sit back and tell everyone you don't care if they just hustle off, what good does that do the shareholder?
In fact, management has created over the past 5 years a very good corporate environment of caring employees. People there are helping each other out and doing all they can to reestablish viability and financial health. There is a good feeling in the home office. People smile.
Bankruptcy is a learning experience. Everything ultimately becomes public. Timing is everything. Mt. Todd was temporarily out of phase with the gold price -- as are a lot of other properties held by many of us. But PGU's management had decided -- and told everyone ( shareholders, analysts, et al ) that it believed the political risk in the good old USA was greater than in Australia and lots of other places thanks to the Gore, Babbitt, Browner gang. And PGU management knows it should have probably done some scenario exercises before announcing the retention packages. Today other steps are being taken to right the ship, and proper steps are being taken and advice sought on the public affairs end. Prepare to be surprised some day. This won't be spun like the mad dogs from the White House press office do their thing, but the right things will be said and done the proper way and in the proper sequence.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:42 - ID#43349)
a buck anyway you can...

LOS ANGELES ( AP ) -- Price Waterhouse executives in Colombia
knowingly bought more than half a million dollars in laundered drug money
on a currency black market, according to a government affidavit filed in
U.S. District Court.

Investigators seized $156,607 of the money from a bank account in New
York, where the funds were wired by undercover officers posing as
money launderers for Mexican and Colombian drug cartels.

``In electing for an exchange of Colombian pesos for U.S. dollars on the
black market, the officials at Price Waterhouse S.A. knew they were
breaking Colombian law and had reason to believe the U.S. dollars they
received were likely proceeds from drug sales in the United States,'' the
seizure affidavit said.

Officials in the U.S. Attorney's Office refused to comment.

The director of Price Waterhouse's Bogota office, chief partner Hugo
Ospina, was out of town Friday and the only person authorized to
comment, his secretary said.

Price Waterhouse, one of the nation's Big 6 accounting firms, said in a
statement from New York that it did not believe the Colombian firm
laundered any money or broke any U.S. laws.

``Discussions are currently under way with the U.S. Attorney's Office and
the U.S. Customs Service, and we are confident that the matter will be
resolved fully,'' the statement said.

Law enforcement sources speaking on condition of anonymity said the
United States was not contemplating criminal charges against Price
Waterhouse S.A., the Colombian entity. Civil action could be pursued if
the company contests the seizure of the money, sources said.

Customs Service agents began investigating the Price Waterhouse office in
Bogota as part of Operation Casablanca, a wide-ranging attack on money
laundering that has resulted in the arrest of 160 people, including Mexican
and Venezuelan bankers. Authorities also seized $87 million, two tons of
cocaine and four tons of marijuana.

Price Waterhouse has 56,000 employees in 119 countries and reported
$6.5 billion revenue last year. The Colombia office has 19 partners, 350
employees and had revenues of $25 million last year, a company
spokesman said.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:45 - ID#257148)
This is supposed to be a gauche, sinister, cack-handed, maladroit, compliment
anyone who bought or sold Pegasus on your recomendation is a bigger fool than you, if you don't hang around.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:46 - ID#43349)
In all the two bit dives in all the world how
did you come to wander into this one? I'll have
Sam play it again while we sit down and you tell
me your story.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:50 - ID#284255)
I am truly sorry to have offended you.

I feel rotten to the core to think
That I have had some help in driving you away.

My words were not well contrived
When I sought to dispell the contango
Between RJ and yourself.

You have a heart and an opinion
That needs to be voiced here.
Your opinion is not wrong nor right
It is merely yours.
The same goes for RJ's

I sort not to displease
But to quell the inhouse fighting.

Your perspective of the markets is valid.
We just need the time and patience
To see it come to fruitition.

Many will see these markets in a different light
Once it has shaken itself apart.

They will realize that their perceptions
Were correct for the yesterdays.
And they will have to learn new rationals
To survive the coming changes.

Please accept my humble appologies.
The arrows I sent had to many barbs.

I welcome your comments
But not the contango's that were.


(Sat May 30 1998 00:53 - ID#43349)
That's entirely possible, but I rather think
the powers that be are more self centered than
that and are just interested in keeping their
all mighty dollar up. Gold just happens to be
one of many innocent victims.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:56 - ID#45173)
Somehow my wife can watch TV. It's cool to space out once in
a while.

I'm in a funk tonight. Here's the thing.

My friend brought this gold coin in yesterday from Inonia 675 BC he bought from a dealer. It's from the oldest know hoard of a couple of hundred, found under a church. Doesn't look like much more than a blob of gold with a crude stamp in it. Near as anyone could tell, you'd trade these coins for things, rather than things for things, but it was between you and the person you traded with to decide what the coins were worth. They had no denomination. Gold was a commodity. Its value was determined by the trade. The mint mark suggested a certain purity, is all.

Today I look at a 1908 St. Gaudens of mine. It has $20 printed on it. At one time you'd buy something worth $20 with it. Tonight I think of the guy who made the coin in Ionia and the guy who worked at the Philly mint 2583 years later where the double eagle was made and wonder what they'd make of this machine I'm using 90 years later to see instantly the price of gold traded on a worldwide futures market. We have come full circle? Gold only a commodity again?

Yes. It is a special kind of commodity. Whereas copper has value for the applications of the properties of the metal, gold has value for the application of gold as an idea. The idea of gold is that it is akin to property, a kind of portable property. It is a resiliant store of wealth. The price of property may rise and fall, but it never becomes worthless, as is the case with gold. Its value rises and falls in relation to the ratio of perceived risk to profit opportunity of paper assets.

Ok. Now I feel better. Screw the Swiss.

(Sat May 30 1998 00:57 - ID#317193)
No, it is not the time to say goodbye. It is time to rally the goldbugs from the temptation to succumb to the belief that gold is dead.

Your purpose is not to predict. It is to bolster the flame of belief in the wisdom of truth. No one can predict the future price of gold. However, thousands of years of history leave no doubt as to the future value of gold. Reject your emotions of self-pity and return to your fellow outcasts of modern society...kitcoites.

My posts here are now very limited. I find the negativity almost beyond comprehension. I went long on gold today when few here, if any, seemed so inclined. Could I be wrong...of course? Do I worry that others follow my lead? NO! Only fools let others make their investment decisions for them.

As for RJ...he is what he is. A man of some considerable trading knowledge but a lion in the land of OZ. Think how many may have gone long platinum weeks ago based on his opinions. Not his responsibility nor do you hold such responsibility for any of your calls.

However, cut out the is not your bag. Stick to the positive posts within the context of current facts and events. Leave the pontificators to post to themselves. These are the only people they like or acknowledge anyway. Dont waste your time or effort.



(Sat May 30 1998 01:00 - ID#287186)
To drive GOLD up in value it must be more widely held by those who value it more.
If each person owned an ounce - be it coins, bars or rings in some part of their anatomy AND enough such people absorbed most of the GOLD in the world the value would be in the four digits.

What is the value of one ounce when a person or a CB owns several hundred or several million ounces compared to a person's precious first ounce? It is that first ounce that commands the premium. Just as the first beer may be worth $5 but the twelfth may be worth 50 cents.

Again I reiterate the need to have a DeBeers style campaign to sell just one ounce to each person {and through them to each of their children}. And screw the World Gold Council. If you want a job done you have to do it yourself. As one poor humble person I can not. But the Kitcoites with their contacts throughout the world and throughout the industry CAN! Preaching to fellow gold bugs has not do it. Tens or hundreds of millions of people each buying a one ounce millenium investment could.

Three billion people, each with one HALF ounce, would absorb the entire WORLD's GOLD STOCKS. The value of that first precious half ounce may very well be four digits in current US$.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:06 - ID#153102)
@Seizing Funds from The Currency Black Market
reminds me of the stories out of the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

I predict more markets will be black in the future than ever before as we walk together into the long night.

What else but the excesses of uncontrolled, feral markets will be responsible for the coming trouble ? What else but uncontrolled global flows of "capital". The very best stories for scaring are ghost stories. And few ghosts have had such a long life as the Ghost of Capitalism. Isn't the solution obvious: Order. World Order. New World Order.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:06 - ID#342376)
@ EJ
I was just in the Kitco Bar and Grill and was telling them about your hilarious "Drinking guide for Gold at $500" Can you repost that? One of the funniest posts I read on here. We could use some humor and optimism.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:13 - ID#284255)
Thanks for the compliment.
I have felt that I have over-emphasized the Y2k posts here.
But the more one reads, the more one can grasp,
That this is bigger than meets the eye.

I have a firm belief that Y2k will impact upon the POG.
I know it will effect us all in some ways.
This has been my theme in trying to pick out the pertinent Y2k articles.

To bring awareness to the situation.
What has been, will not necessarily be the same

Glad to have achieved some good.

After long thought????
2002 will not resemble 1998 - NAB
In many ways.
But to encapsulate what and where the changes will be.
I will leave to others.

But I feel that the changes will be of such magnitude
To leave many defenceless and confused.

Society has a great serenity upon it now.
This will be gone.

Chaos will usher in the new millenium.
We have but to wait and see.

Email chatter
Here is synopsis on International Forcaster y2k IRS Commissioner Rossotti says, "If we don't fix the century-date problem, we will have a situation scarier than the average disaster movie.". He then mentions Ed Yardeni but you are familiar with him so won't repeat that. Then he says a 2000 recession is bound to be deflationary. The US may experience a $1 trillion drop in normal GDP and a $1 trillion loss in stock market capitalization. There is currently no cooperative or collective approach by business or government and there has been no effort to alert the public.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:13 - ID#78136)
F & RJ
Are we going through this again. What are you guys, a couple of
primadona's? Your comments are no more valid than anyone else.
Pull up your skirts and get with the boys. If we were looking
for like comments, we wouldn't be continually logging on. It's
our differences which make this site interesting. Jeez, what
do you guys do for a living? Do we have to continually build the
two of you up to get a knowledgeable opinion. This is crap, suck
it up, say what you feel and be proud.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:14 - ID#190411)
Forty pieces of silver haven't been this cheap in 600 years?
I think that I will send some to my kids' school.
--- probably get arrested for prosetylising/racketeering.

awaytoask EB how his plats are doing..........

(Sat May 30 1998 01:14 - ID#45173)
Squirrel: it's hard to change the world, but it's worth a try
I often carry both gold and silver coins with me. I sometimes tip with US silver dollars. If it's to someone older than, say, 40, they usually overestimate the value and think they're getting overtipped. If they are under 40, they often underestimate and prefer cash. I think the reason is that folks who are over 40 are old enough to recall silver coins in their change and inflation in the 70's. How to you get the younger folks to "see" the value of gold and silver when the dollar has been so stable? The answer, I'm afraid, is that they have to experience it. An event has to happen to cause them to see paper for what it is, a promise of value, a representation and symbol of value. A serious inflation will do the trick. Deflation might also.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:15 - ID#252391)
So how big is the Japanese hord
Everytime I think scarcity of these metals I hear of another big stash. The Japanese have 15 million oz horded? That's worth about $6 Billion dollars. Not very much in the global state of thing. Probably enough platinum to keep a lid on prices for a while if it was fed into the market.

Goldwater - a great man has passed from us. Saw him speak when he ran for president. Reagan introduced him.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:20 - ID#43349)
Strange. No one seems to want the stuff, yet
everyone has some stashed.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:21 - ID#390275)
What happened to logic?
If the Swiss were going to sell gold they would have announced it after the sale and not before. That is what the Australians did. Only a lunatic would drive down the price of something that they were going to sell. What a great chance for the Swiss to buy gold. A Swiss gold sale must be approved by the Cantons and the Swiss people. Such an approval is highly unlikely and perhaps impossible. I can hear their story now, "Yes, we wanted to sell the gold but the Swiss people wouldn't approve of the sale. They must vote on it you know. We tried to sell the gold but the Swiss people wouldn't let us." This is the same politics that the Swiss have been utlizing for the past 100 years. How smart they are to pull the same kinds of tricks for 100 years without anyone catching on. The Swiss have been running their own particular money game very successfully for a very long time. Why would they get stupid now? That Swiss gold sale has been announced four times so far. Can they sell the same gold four times? The Swiss are masterminds of the political shell game. Keep your eye on it. Where's the gold? I'll tell you where the gold will always be. It will be in Swiss vaults.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:22 - ID#45173)
crazytimes: Sorry, couldn't find the drinking one. Found another.
Hope you like it. One of my favorites.

It's the new Miracle Diet!

Over the years you may have noticed that most toddlers are not fat.

Inspiration for this diet came one day to the author while drinking a glass of water and eating a carrot, that perhaps the reason for the 2 years olds being so trim was their diet.

After consultation with pediatricians, X-ray technicians and distraught
moms, she was able to formulate this plan. It is inexpensive, offering
great variety and sufficient quantity.

Before embarking on this diet, please be sure to check with your doctor,
otherwise you might have to see him afterwards! Good Luck.....

Day one:

One scrambled egg, one piece of toast with grape jelly. Eat 2 bites of egg, using your fingers; dump the rest on the floor. Take 1 bite of toast, then smear the jelly over your face and clothes.

Four crayons, ( any color ) , a handful of potato chips, and a glass of milk. 3 sips only ( then spill the rest on the floor ) .

A dry stick, two pennies and a nickle, 4 sips of flat pepsi.

Bedtime snack:
Toast a piece of bread then toss it on the kitchen floor.

Day Two:

Pick up stale toast from kitchen floor and eat it. Drink a half bottle of
vanilla extract or one vial of vegetable dye.

Half tube of "Pulsating Pink" lipstick and a handful of Purina Dog Chow ( any flavor ) , one ice cube if desired.

Afternoon Snack:
Lick an all day sucker until sticky, take outside, drop in dirt, retrieve
and continue slurping until it is clean again. Bring inside and drop on the rug.

A rock or an uncooked bean, which should be thrust up your left nostril.
Pour grape kool-aid over mashed potatoes, eat with a spoon.

Day Three:

2 pancakes with plenty of syrup, eat one with fingers, rub in hair. Glass of milk; drink half, stuff other pancake in glass. After breakfast, pick up yesterday's sucker from rug, lick off fuzz and put it on the cushion of your best chair.


Three matches, peanut butter and jelly sandwich, spit several bites on the floor, pour glass of milk on table and slurp up.

Dish of ice cream, handful of potato chips, some red punch.

Final Day:

A quarter tube of toothpaste, a bit of soap, an olive. Pour a glass of milk over bowl of cornflakes, add a half cup of sugar, after cereal is soggy, drink and feed cereal to dog.

Eat crumbs off kitchen floor and dining room carpet. Find that sucker and
finish eating it.

A glass of spaghetti and chocolate milk. Leave meatball on plate. Stick of mascara for dessert.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:32 - ID#43349)
It seems like there is something dark going on
an logic doesn't apply. Remember back in the
beginning of the month when the Japanese and
others were out on holiday and every afternoon
someone would drive gold down another couple of
bucks after the London market closed. If I had
a bunch of gold to sell, I would want to have as
many buyers as possible, not the thinest market.

Or maybe logic IS being used but someone has a
different agenda....

(Sat May 30 1998 01:33 - ID#222448)
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

``But US pension funds are beginning to see the value of gold as a portfolio diversifier, buying about 50 tonnes last year,'' Richard Scott Ram, a World Gold Council economist, said Friday.

Some well known Canadian funds have purchased gold as a portion of their portfolio over the last year and had been given nothing but grief from Brokers and investors. Me not included. I suppose the pressure for quick returns means managers cannot position themselves as they see fit. Also, it seems when the price is right - money managers will buy gold ( despite all the negative connotations thrown at the yellow stuff over the years ) .

Hang in there people!

(Sat May 30 1998 01:33 - ID#347235)
WHat upset me with Mozel today was when he said he didn't take me to raise. I am 57 years old and don't need to be raised. Also he has been talking about posted executive orders but I have not seen the Orders only his reference to them. Thanks to Silverbaron giving the URL I read
seceral to day and failed to find exactly what he is talking about. I have also pointed out that there are three branches of govt in this country and ol' slick is going to find that out monday when he either answers or fails to answer the Supreme Courts questions by 16;30 hours Monday. Should be very interesting all around. I know I stir the pot once in a while but mean no ill will toward anyone but anti-semitics.
I have responded strongly to them when I felt is was appropriate to do so. Well enough of this I've been on my soapbox too much to day. One more thing I repeat what I said before about NWO OWG and all that, IT WONT WORK, has never worked before, many Alliences have trried before and failed. THey will again. SHalom to all. If I misspelled anything its because I type faster than I can think sometimes being old and suffering ol'timers disease please forgive.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:35 - ID#78136)
Sharefin (y2k)
Keep up the good work. I have become a lunatic over this
issue. Next week, my wife and I are off to look at retreats
in southern Ontario. I can go into a lovely log cabin in the
Canadian Rockies, but I don't think it is temperate enough
for the long haul. I believe it will be a long haul. These
embedded chips are going to be the death of some of us.
I would not mind if it was a severe depression. This might be
a cleansing, I just don't know. What I do know is that there
will definitely be interrupted power supply and to us Canadians
New Years day is not often balmy. Lots of places to subsist in
the Canadian Tundra, but I would like self sufficiency. Make no
mistake, if you intend to survive you have less than 600 days
to get your sh** together.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:36 - ID#347235)
Your diet is hilarious! I love it and it is SOOO thrue.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:40 - ID#43349)
Wow! That's the most bullish report I've seen
from Reuters for quite some time. The winds of
change are blowing.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:42 - ID#45173)
Gollum: Warning -- conspiracy theory follows
Actually, I tried to come up with a theory but could not think up anything plausible. Someone ( who? a group of investors? ) is keeping the price of gold down as low as possible while they get liquid and ready to jump when the stock market bubble breaks and there's a rush to gold, which they themselves start?

(Sat May 30 1998 01:43 - ID#257148)
The Old Lady of Threadneedle St. Is Madama Lafarge knitting again?

The JM report says that Japan has purchased 13 Moz of Plat for jewelerry in 10 years from 1988, and a further 2.1 Moz for "investment both in small and large quantities. In 1997 these three categories accounted for 1.5 M oz demand.

TOtal world demand was 5.2 M oz. with short fall of 230,000 oz under Supply. In other words a 20% drop in jewellery/invetsment demand in Japan would meet the short fall for 97. Any dishoarding from under the futons of these stashes of Plat will effect this rather thinly balanced market, as will any disruption of Russia's output, last year 900,000 oz , and falling

WHile it is undoubted that catalyst demand will increase around the world, it is coming of reasonably low comparative demand ( 500,000 oz in W Europe and 825 Moz in Merka ) last year recovery in Merka was 290,000 oz Plat as autocatalyst has actually been declining in Japan for this decade.

Recovery rates are high, demand may also be increasing in autocatalysts and other electrical applications. Thing is, this is a JM report. JM have the biggest interest in being bullish on the PGMs, Remember the post a week or two ago, Windfall Profits to JM because they didn't hedge their inventories. Not to hedge is to speculate, yes?

Anyone remember the JM Bank fiasco? JM really F*d up big time, and was bailed out by the Bank of England. Perhaps CJS can point us to an expos on-line. My knowledge is from Stephen Fay's "Portrait of an Old Lady - Turmoil at the Bank of England."

(Sat May 30 1998 01:48 - ID#190411)
As a thirteen year old I worked for Goldwater. My mother as a Rockefeller supporter, nearly disowned me.

I spent a few days in the detention cubicle adjacent to the asst. principal's office for trouncing my English teacher in a mannerly debate. I saw Nixon speak for him.

Only the KKK, the John Birchers, the US out of the UN crowd, were acknowledged to support him.

That was when I got a handle on the media manipulation that is the handmaiden ( read whores ) , for the powers that be. ( read LORAL now, or, then TFX ) , or, in this space ( name your favorite transnational corporation )

(Sat May 30 1998 01:48 - ID#45173)
RETIRED SOLDIER, glad you enjoyed it.

Prospector, thanks for the post. It's a good reminder, gold is undervalued, stocks are overvalued, they tend to move in opposite directions. Reminds me of why I bought gold in the first place.

Bedtime. G'nite!

(Sat May 30 1998 01:50 - ID#222448)
Did you catch my post to you on Kit2 aka Billy Miner?

(Sat May 30 1998 01:50 - ID#43349)
Dunno. It just seems like in a normal market
you hear some rumor one day that sends prices
up and some other the next day that sends them
down. Of course, hardly any of the rumors turns
out to be well founded.

In this market we keep getting the ones that send
things down, but not the others. And they seem
timed to arrive at critical moments.

Golds been quietly trending down for quite a few
years without needing this much help all at once.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:50 - ID#43349)
Dunno. It just seems like in a normal market
you hear some rumor one day that sends prices
up and some other the next day that sends them
down. Of course, hardly any of the rumors turns
out to be well founded.

In this market we keep getting the ones that send
things down, but not the others. And they seem
timed to arrive at critical moments.

Golds been quietly trending down for quite a few
years without needing this much help all at once.

(Sat May 30 1998 01:57 - ID#388209)
F*, The Magnificent, The Intrepid Jubilant Dancer, formerly known as Farfel The Wonderful
Boy ( & Girls ) , a dumb ass am I !
Dumb asses are me !
As I tuned in,
I fully expected Farf to be in full throat crowing in a good natured way over his deadly correct cautionary notes on PL & PT, but nooooooo !
I'm wrong again, as usual !
That makes me a perfect 10 as an inverse barometor for every thing I've tried to forsee in the last 60 days.

Say it ain't so !
You can't just up & run out on those who take joy & sustenance from your wit & infectious optimism. You have a first rate mind with a crucial grasp of fundamental economic principals that keep us all grounded to the rails of macro- reality. You are needed at your post in this battle that is unfolding. You can't just beg us off to some stranger & assuage your conscious with some blather that a facimille will do just as well.

I have no reproach for those who struggle or even who taunt your ideas on this forum, as long as they are not personal attacks, but my stars son buck up & rejoin the ranks of your comrades & sisterrads who are fighting the good fight ! Even Longstreet, "Ole Pete", lost his nerve at Picket's Charge. This is TR's "Crowded Hour", when battle fatigue, tunnel vision &
heavy arms are hard to uphold, but when true intelligence & insight are more important than many corps.

No one but a fool would doubt your good intentions & only a fool could blame you ( or feel guilty for ) not being perfect. So enough of this poppycock & bullfeathers, don't make me beg like those
miserable toads ( {: ) ) ) thing ) who sucked up over the merciful departure of ANOTHER. If you don't quit this Swan Song BS, people will start acusing you of either being him or stealing his sthick.

So come back you filthy animal. You are acutely missed already,.... enough !

I Remain,



(Sat May 30 1998 02:00 - ID#286224)
RE: Squirrel 1:00 (Millenium coin? )

What about the millenium coin - Mulroney ,munk et al... I hope it's not dead in the water...

....."Again I reiterate the need to have a DeBeers style campaign to sell just one ounce to each person ...{snip} ...Three billion people, each with one HALF ounce, would absorb the entire WORLD's GOLD STOCKS. The value of that first precious half ounce may very well be four digits in current US$."

(Sat May 30 1998 02:08 - ID#153102)
@Tom @EJ
Tom Well done Post. Hope F* will read and heed.

@EJ "The idea of gold is that it is akin to property, a kind of portable
property. It is a resiliant store of wealth. The price of property may
rise and fall, but it never becomes worthless, as is the case with gold.
Its value rises and falls in relation to the ratio of perceived risk to
profit opportunity of paper assets."

I think perhaps the original utility of gold was as a kind of portable land. Like land, gold does not decay or rust or waste away with the passage of time. Unlike land, though, gold is not fruitful. The priests of Baal by usury made gold seem fruitful. But the seeming fruit produced by usury with gold bears a poison that kills the tree of liberty and accumulates a fatal taint in the blood of commerce.

The War on Gold has been lost on the international stage. It has proved irreplaceable as a pledge, a bond for performance. The War on Gold has been won by the USG on the domestic stage. The greatest objection to gold among Americans is that it doesn't pay interest. The perceived risk that interest rates will not outpace the devaluation of the paper would cause gold to rise relative to the paper in a freely traded market. The American people are fed statistics and believe them; but governments and people overseas are not so easily deceived.

Gold has always been a commodity in the sense that it is a substance. The Numbers minted onto gold in the end have no more relevance than the Numbers printed onto paper.

(Sat May 30 1998 02:11 - ID#284255)
US pension funds buying about 50 tonnes
Do they buy paper contracts on gold - promisories?
Or do the salt away the physical?

There is a big difference.

(Sat May 30 1998 02:18 - ID#257148)
I'm talking little islands of pancreatic sheep cells

I should like to question you, please on your post of Fri May 29 1998 12:53, in particular

"The Dutch manfacturer of 70% of the world's insulin supply will be taking its production lines out of service on 12/31/1999."

Who is this mysterious Dutch manufacturer? I am given to understand that Novo Nordisk, a Danish Company, are the world leaders in insulin production and they produce just over 50% of world's supply. Please advise. Although I can understand about the medical monitoring equipment not complying, I shall make enquiries downunder...

Wasn't the hero of Lucifer's Hammer - survival after meteorite SF, a diabetic?

Now, there's another famous Scots-Canadian Discovery, Insulin. Bunting & Best, and the third's name...?

(Sat May 30 1998 02:27 - ID#43349)
Not only that, but it is entirely unfair to this
poor wandering stranger to be associated in any
way with the departure of one who has contributed
so much, and with as much heart felt fervor, as
dear Farfel has.

It is a shame that the ones who care can be the
ones who are driven off by having cared.

(Sat May 30 1998 02:34 - ID#410215)
..... Hey Folks .....

The guy attacked me at every opportunity. I tried again and again to make informative and interesting posts, and this guy kept coming at me, for nothing else than hear his own voice. Should we repost his blather? Perhaps your memories are short, but the past is contained with these pages. I you feel like passing judgment, go back and read how he came at me swinging both fists from the start. The posts are there, time and again attacking me. I didnt even post for more than two weeks, nary a word or a toot. Yet farfel choose to make a crappy remark about me, or five, or ten every day.

I like this site, I read this site. How would any of you feel, if you did not even post, and some vigilante was every day bullying you? Every one of you would either stand up to it or go away. I choose to stand. This has always proven to be the wisest course with bullies. Im sorry he couldnt keep up and he buried his credibility with every word he wrote, but this was a fight that he picked and prosecuted with great relish.

I was going to leave this alone, hes gone now, right? But farfel fans are creating a spin on this that is patently untrue.

I offered peace to farfel and acted as I promised he rejected peace for rancor.

Lets look at my proffer:

His response to my earnest offer and apology was to insult me in his usual grand style, accepting my apology, offering none of his own, but choosing instead to lecture me like some smug grandfather.

Pardon me for the enormous satisfaction of not seeing this blowhard again.

Any one of you, treated as I was by him, would feel the same.

Maybe I should leave because Henry D doesnt have the stomach for this. He does however seem to have a Buddha sized stomach when it comes to tolerating farfels snipes at me. Henry, I dont miss your respect, you are not a fair man. I would not choose to associate with you in any case. Your admonishments to me fall on deaf ears. Where were your words of slime when farfel was attacking me daily?

There are many, in fact most, people on this site who dont agree with my views on gold. Yet, I am able to carry on lengthy discourse for months on end, with plenty of friendly jabs on both sides, so it can hardly be said that I am intolerant of those that disagree, yes?

For all you who would blast me and my "slimy" remarks: If you have not read these two posts, you know not of what you speak. Am I to feel guilty because this guy picked a fight, and picked, and picked, and picked until I stepped up and stomped him? It was what he was asking for and what he roundly deserved, as do all bullies.

As for Farfel, good riddance to bad garbage.

And I have zero respect for anyone who would defend this angry little child.

Besides.. Hell be back to respond to this. He has to have the last word.

He is not done being a martyr.


(Sat May 30 1998 02:45 - ID#410215)
..... Fairness? .....

For all you pleading to the martyr, how about following the lead of sharfin and ask that he returns and sets his attacking ways aside? If he comes back at me again, we will both be thrown off. Count on it.


(Sat May 30 1998 02:54 - ID#43349)
It's kind of like the story of the prodigal son.
The one who leaves gets missed. Which is unfair
to the one who stays.

I think though that they object to seeing the
winner kick the loser after he's down no matter
how justified the winner feels.

(Sat May 30 1998 02:58 - ID#252391)
Again: To Barry Goldwater
"When I heard Barry Goldwater speak it always made me proud to be an American" - an American

(Sat May 30 1998 03:10 - ID#410215)
..... Gollum .....

Yet they did not voice the same when I was under siege

This was no puppy dog

This was a boastful, prideful man who shouted YALE!

And attacked me at every turn

I would love to leave this behind

I should follow every post canonizing farfel with a post of farfels own words proving he was a willing and wanton aggressor. I think he is used to feeling as if he wins the argument. A couple months ago he spoke of pitching a guy gold at a cocktail party. I sell the stuff for a living, and I wouldn't dream of selling gold at a party. So he lost one and slunk away.

Since all predictions have been tarnished this week, perhaps we could hearken back to a prediction I made a month ago that "Farfel will dry up and blow away". I hope he stays away for all time; until the mountains wash into the sea and our sun slowly dims in the void.

Think Ive had enough of this place for awhile too.


(Sat May 30 1998 03:12 - ID#388209)
RJ, You can cast swine before pearls, but you can't make them drink an idea!
It's the Ad Hominim stupid !

Is F* the monster you describe in your latst personal attack or the thoughtful colleague you called upon in your apologia ?

Was his response condescending ? Perhaps a tad, but more avunckular than jugliar. You have very thin skin . The only thing more annoying than a sulking Tar Baby is trying to conduct civil discourse in a group setting where one participant keeps grinding on a pitted ax in a dry hole ; much heat and very little light, much irritation, much ill repute !

Your a bright contributor, but spare us the diatribes. Instead of calling names like "Blowhard" & good riddance keep your cool & show us the errors of his or our ways.

"Rock Steady & Love On YA", Bowie.



(Sat May 30 1998 03:19 - ID#252391)
I like your mersaneries analogy in the Beriut dive waiting for the next show down. Your :46 was timely and great.

And about the mersaneries - I think you're right.

About the conspiracy to drive down the price of gold, "gold has been going down for years without this much concentrated effort to keep it going in that direction. I think there's something going on and it is not as it seems. There's not that much of this precious stuff around compared to all the paper in the world. At some point the dollar and the metals can not contiue in different directions, one up in relation to the other. At a point that will snap. As close as we are to this , rumor by rumor, resistance point to trend line to gap, I think we'll se the tide change. That's why I think I'll give up trying to pick the bottom in this cycle.

I hope someday the truth is known about the behind the scens of this era - it would be interesting - I guess - but it might turn out that their was no conspiracy at all, just more mersaneries one side than the other.

P.S. Thanks aurator for the Platinum information. Doesn't seem like we'll run out of Plat tomorrow and that their will be two way trade.

(Sat May 30 1998 03:20 - ID#340344)
How about if Farfel stays, only for a year or two he doesn't
hog the bandwidth with profound-sounding drivel?

I have commended F* several times for good posts, but
sheesh, RJ is spot-on about F*'s need to have the last
word. Lots and lots of last words. 90% of what he
says, he says to feed his ego. I recall one board that
His Eloquence wrote being 72 very long lines, and in my
opinion, it looked to be one of his "Yale essays." Nothing
new. Just lots of high-sounding yadda yadda. If what you
guys want is yadda yadda, and more months filled with dufey
chanting, then sure, use the defillibrator once, and voila,
you have a born again perdictling on yer hands. Maybe he
should come back as a new entity with a built-in disclaimer.
How about D* == Doubtful?

As per your recommendation, F*, I bought Pegasus shares,
and am the proud owner of a lot of them, rather worthless
now. Also, as you suggested, I saved the homily, and am
dispensing it, herewith.

(Sat May 30 1998 03:25 - ID#43349)
I think it was just that no one wants to step
into the middle of a fight. You see a brawl
out in the street you don't want to get involved.

You are a street fighter and you know how to take
care of yourself. He wasn't.

The world needs street fighters.

But we need Farfel's too ( So long as we have some
street fighters around to keep them in their place )

We need all types. We need wise men and we need
fools. No man is an island...

(Sat May 30 1998 03:41 - ID#284255)
The lighter side of testosterone implants
Q. Why are men such jerks?
A. It's a testosterone thing. Very similar to your PMS thing, we men suffer from testosterone poisoning. Why do you think the average lifespan of a male is typically 10 years shorter ( and it's not just from all the complaining and nagging we have to endure ) ? Hormone modifies behaviour. We're just misunderstood.

Q. Why do men always have to ogle at other women?
A. Again, this is a testosterone thing. Do you honestly think that all the testosterone just fell out of our bodies the moment we met you? Besides, women do it as well. Women are just much better at not getting caught. I'm fairly certain it's some sort of photographic memory deal. Women take one quick look and memorise it for later reference. Since men lack this ability, we try to burn it into our memory by staring as much as we can.

Q. Why do men always say such stupid things?
A. We like to. It's actually a whole lot of fun to see our partner frustrated by a few simple ( and well chosen ) words.

Q. Why are men so uncommunicative?
A. You'd learn to keep your big mouth shut too if every time you open it you get into trouble with your partner.

Q. Why do men have to act like such retards?
A. Well, we don't actually have to; we do it because we enjoy it. It's the old fashioned pride in a job well done that's missing in so much of the world nowadays.

Q.Why can't men just share their feelings?
A. Do we look like women to you? Why is it so hard to understand that men and women are different? How are we supposed to share how we feel when we have no idea how we feel? Unless we're experiencing some Extreme emotion like rage, hatred, disgust, or a brick on our foot, we have no idea how we feel. Personally, I get a headache whenever I try to figure out how I feel.

Q. Why can't men cuddle more ( I.e. lie down and hug ) ?
A. Please... How many hours do you think there is in a day? We oblige you as much as we can, but who the heck ( besides women ) can stand lying around for hours on end? We men... Men hunters... Need go roam...Starve in cave... Must go find wildebeest... Now sitting on our asses for hours on end on the other hand is a whole other story.

Q. How can men sit on their backsides all day without moving?
A. Men have very powerful sets of sitting muscles developed by evolution that enable us to sit for extended periods of time without getting tired. In prehistoric times, it was often necessary to sit in one spot for extended periods of time while hunting for prey. The more successful hunters were
able to sit very still for very extended periods of time thereby passing on this ability to their progeny. The fidgety types were all gobbled up by sabre toothed tigers etc. The end result is that almost all modern men are born with this innate ability.

Q. Why can't men just say "I love you?"
A. Men are taught from a tender young age to be self-sufficient. To say that we love you is equivalent to saying that we need you. Most men consider that a character fault. It's not easy to admit to one's own character faults.

Q. What does it mean when men say "I Love You?"
1 Please sleep with me.
2 I'm sorry for whatever it is that I did.
3 I forgot to get you a gift; this will have to do.
4 Huh? I'm sorry; I wasn't listening.
5 What did I forget? This should buy me a little time.
6 Stop nagging me.
7 What do I have to do to get a beer around here?

Q. Why doesn't my partner ever answer me?
A. We just simply don't have the energy to answer every single one of your questions. If we think we do not have the answer, or that you will not like the answer, we simply remain quiet and save the energy for other things.

Q. Why won't men ever pick up after themselves?
A. Why should we? It doesn't really bother us that much. Besides, we know darn well you'll pick it up.

Q. What's with all the belching?
A. This usually only occurs after months of courting. It's our way to let you know that we're comfortable with you. Believe it or not, it's actually a sign of affection. Besides, holding it for extended periods of time gives us stomach cramps.

Q. Why do men hate shopping?
A. It's an evolutionary thing. Men hunt. Women gather. We just want to go out, kill it, and bring it back. Who wants to spend hours and hours to look at things we have no intention of killing? err... Buying?

Q. Why can't men ever leave the toilet seat down?
A. Have you ever seen one of us pee? The proper position of the toilet seat is up. Mathematically speaking, the proper position of the toilet seat is a function of the time spent peeing over the time spent sitting. The closer that ratio approaches one, the truer the proposition. Besides, it's
actually a courtesy that we lift the seat. Why would we care if we pee all over the seat. You're the ones that have to sit on it. You should appreciate the fact that we actually lift the darn thing. We aim to please.

Q. Why do men find dumb blonde attractive?
A. Are you kidding? Even leaving the physical aside, blonde bimbos are generally much easier to get along ( alone ) with. They like having fun and doing exciting things. They don't walk around with the weight of the world on their shoulders. They don't ever give us a hard time for being a dumb male; and plus they laugh at most of our jokes ( even the ones they don't get ) . What more could any of us males ask for?

Q. Why do men act like they own the remote control?
A. What do you mean act? We do; possession is nine tenths of the law. Besides, it is an awesome responsibility not to be entrusted to just anyone. I believe the only fair way to decide who gets the remote control is to arm wrestle for it.

Q. Why can't men stay on a single channel for more than two seconds?
A. Are you kidding? What if there is something good on the next channel? We could miss it if we stay on one channel for too long. ( See also: Why do men fear commitment? )

Q. Why do men fear commitment?
A. Don't be so surprised. Yes; most of us do know what 'commitment' means and can spell it correctly. It's like an automobile. No matter how good you think this year's model is, they're always coming out with newer, faster, better, sleeker, and sexier models. We simply cannot be expected to purchase the first one we see. We must browse around a bit and test drive a few. Who wants to end up with a lemon? At least with a car, there's a slight chance of it eventually becoming a classic. It simply makes much more sense to lease and upgrade to the younger... err... I mean newer models every couple of years. Some of them come with fun extras like dual air bags.

Q. What does it mean when men say, "I'm just not ready for a relationship right now" or "I don't want a girl friend?"
A. It means that we like you enough to sleep with you, but not enough so that we want to see you repeatedly.

Q. What does it mean when men say, "Can we just be friends?"
A. Generally, it means that the recipient of said comment is physically repulsive enough that no beer goggles may be thick enough to provide adequate protection.

Q. Why are men so obsessed with beautiful women?
A. As opposed to what? Really ugly women? Face it, if men were obsessed with ugly women, there would be just as much bitching about why men are so obsessed with ugly women. No matter how you set this up, some people are always going to be left out. I don't see anyone screaming about equal treatment for the stupid people either.

Q. Why do men like younger women?
A. Well, let's see. Besides the fact that they like older men, they're easily impressed. They're also perky, energetic, and come with very little baggage. And gravity has less prevail over their bodies.

Q. Why do men only have one thing on their minds?
A. While technically correct, this statement is not strictly true. We may only be able to entertain one idea at a time, but we do think of lots of other things besides sex, such as sports and beer. We also get hungry quite often.

Q. How can men possibly find that other woman attractive ( I.e. whatever do you see in that fat pig ) ?
A. Even if you happen to be Cindy Crawford, once we get the idea that you are ours, other women suddenly become much more attractive and you lose a few attractiveness points. I'm a bit puzzled by this one myself. I think evolution is to blame. We men are just innocent bystanders in the war of the selfish genes. You should love us despite our inherent weakness.

Q. Why are men such dogs?
A. I resent that. Dogs are faithful... loyal... affectionate... and obedient...

(Sat May 30 1998 03:45 - ID#43349)
In my experience percieved conspiracies turn out
to have more mundane explanations if one had all
the facts.

Real conspiracies are awfully hard to keep hidden
unless you're really good. It seems like there is
always someone or something that lets the cat out
of the bag ( or hires an independant prosecutor ) .

There is a kind of synchronisity of events that can
make it look like a hidden cabal is pulling strings
but in truth it is just the turning of the tides.

If Newton hadn't created the calculus when he did,
Lagrange would have or whoever. The market doesn't
crash because some guy gets out but because lots do
at once. They didn't have a meeting the night before
and all agree to get out of the market the next day
even though it might have looked like a coordinated
manuver. Rather more like a school of fish.

We see thigs we don't understand, coordinated things,
and we theorize ho this could come to be. A conspiracy
is as good a theory as any.

(Sat May 30 1998 03:45 - ID#153102)
@Who Will Be Denounced
for causing the coming troubles ?
Who else but speculators ? Irresponsible profiteers ? Those uncaring, unsharing robber barons.

But who will be detained in national security camps. For sure, the Farrakan blacks will be among the first.

(Sat May 30 1998 03:52 - ID#27341)
Fight-nite again,areeee,beats TV anytime.

(Sat May 30 1998 03:57 - ID#388209)
At age 10, I proudly placed that bumper sticker on the family Plymouth station wagon with space age fins !
November of 64 was a depressing stunning bummer. I truly don't believe that LBJ's landslide was a mandate for the ripping & devistating social programs he wrought in his "WAR ON POVERTY". He told us that AUH20 was an untrustworthy zealot, but not a word was broadcast about drowning the economy with worthless & counterproductive income redistribution & higer taxes & deficits, or destroying the fabric of 90% of the Black family structure . Ofcourse, he did keep us out of the war just like Wilson did
in WW1 ! I think those VC PT boats are still menacing the 6th fleet in Tonkin though !

In my 7th grade shop class, I made a slanted bookshelf with the headboard
shaped like an old tombstone & inscribed with a soildering iron,
I was a precotious & precient lad.

Unfortunately, AUH20 went brain dead & mushy well before he assumed room temperature. I don't think I can think of any one responsible for more rediculous crap statements after leaving the public arena ( like that crazy aunt down in Ross Perot's basement, Jimmy Carter does't count because he was at least consistently goofy ) . I guess being in the limelight was more important to the old Toot than sanity & wisdom & decorum. When a conservative goes soft in the head, whether in retirement like AUH20, or he "Grows in office" to the accolades of the NY times, he becomes a charming media darling & he preys that his temporal obit will have kind frases deployed.

AUH20 was a liberterian & a great conservative. He was not an orator, but a man of action. We are a greater country because he fought the good fight.

I will miss the AUH20 of 64. Yes I will !



(Sat May 30 1998 03:59 - ID#284255)
Email Chatter
Stack has a Coppick Guide chart.

It establishes only its 6th double-top in 80 yrs.
The lead time of a double-top is cut to virtually 0.
He calls the double tops "killer waves".
Two of them saw -36% declines, one saw a -45% drop.
While in 1929 it was -89% - all in the conservative blue chips.

Its current status......unless the market stages a miraculous 11% rally ( to DJIA 10,000 ) tomorrow..the last day of the month. the Coppock Guide will have peaked in April along with the S&P Index, and could soon be on its way down.
The chart shows it has made a double top.

***Hey Nick tomorrow above was today Fri.

Is there a chance of another rally burst to carry the Coppock back up to a higher high? Sure, but it's not a bet we'd make with our own money. And our real emphasis here is. IF THE MARKET HEADS DOWN FROM HERE, DON'T TREAT IT AS TEMPORARY, OR A CORRECTION.
A tight labour market never resolves itself WITHOUT a recession.

(Sat May 30 1998 04:09 - ID#255151)
Yank Tries to Claim Discrimination in Oz Over Being Called a Yank

Good for a chuckle.

(Sat May 30 1998 04:12 - ID#252150)
Farley Fetched & Rocky Jean
Farley was a blowhard

That Rocky could'nt abide

Farley came at Rocky

And Rocky set him aside

(Sat May 30 1998 04:16 - ID#27341)
Auric - NO comment

(Sat May 30 1998 04:21 - ID#284255)
EB - Mid AM futures
Mid AM Futures

Dow Industrials - Long Term

Dow Transports - Long Term

Dow Utilities - Long Term

These charts take a few minutes to load.
Depending on net speed. ( slow at the moment )
They will probably be memory hungry too.
Best to use another browser to open them.
They can then be bookmarked.

(Sat May 30 1998 04:39 - ID#255151)

Funny how these lawsuits are NEVER about money. It's so others won't have to go through the same thing. How noble!

(Sat May 30 1998 04:41 - ID#388209)
Sharefin RE Stack
I consider this Double Top report by Stack to be a DEFCON 4 alert ! His data bank is incredible & he is no alarmist !

What does he mean by, "lead time cut to zero" ?

What is the warning period ?
Does it portend blowoff or grinding Bear ?
I never ask much !



(Sat May 30 1998 05:07 - ID#284255)

John Disney__A
(Sat May 30 1998 05:10 - ID#24135)
Hi there Nitrous Oxide ..
To All
Had a pleasant morning email exchange with Aurator. In the
course of it I made a comment that I will pass to the
The EPA says that converting exhaust gases to nitrous
oxide with PT converters ultimately contributes to
global warming. The implication is that we should go to
electric cars and thus PT demand will take a knock ..

However, IF we go to electric cars THEN the entire
energy demand for gasoline will be imposed upon the power
generation demand which will be produced by burning fossil
fuel ( unless we want to talk nuclear ) . Burning fossil
fuels in power stations will generate nitrous oxide
also .. so I dont think we get anywhere THAT way.
Unless we go to FUEL CELLS and then we are back to
even MORE platinum use I believe.
Comments please ?

John Disney__A
(Sat May 30 1998 05:10 - ID#24135)
Hi there Nitrous Oxide ..
To All
Had a pleasant morning email exchange with Aurator. In the
course of it I made a comment that I will pass to the
The EPA says that converting exhaust gases to nitrous
oxide with PT converters ultimately contributes to
global warming. The implication is that we should go to
electric cars and thus PT demand will take a knock ..

However, IF we go to electric cars THEN the entire
energy demand for gasoline will be imposed upon the power
generation demand which will be produced by burning fossil
fuel ( unless we want to talk nuclear ) . Burning fossil
fuels in power stations will generate nitrous oxide
also .. so I dont think we get anywhere THAT way.
Unless we go to FUEL CELLS and then we are back to
even MORE platinum use I believe.
Comments please ?

(Sat May 30 1998 05:11 - ID#284255)
I don't know but can only guess.

That we don't have long to wait.

(Sat May 30 1998 05:12 - ID#388209)
My little Murmaid calls.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Can't stay up !
Away to play under the waves ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(Sat May 30 1998 05:13 - ID#255151)

Pakistan just set off 2 more nukes. Duck and cover!

(Sat May 30 1998 05:22 - ID#388209)
Laughing gas is the stuff "THEY" plant in the papers to eat the lunch of weak hands holding Plat. !



John Disney__A
(Sat May 30 1998 05:55 - ID#24135)
Salads on Saturday
Salads .. are delicious BUT they must be made properly.
1. Check you fridge for "iceberg" lettuce. Also the fridges
of your close friends/relatives. If you find any pitch
it out and tell whoever bought it NEVER to do that again.
2. Find a place where you can buy real lettuce and proper
greens for salad.. red oak .. butter lettuce.. watercress
chicory.. whatever. Use these things to make salads.
3. If you MUST put tomatoes in a lettuce salad use the
whole small cocktail type. Chopping tomato into a salad
is criminal, as the juice dilutes the dressing. Only
fools do this. If you wish for tomatoes .. serve them
sliced on a side dish drizzeled with french dressing
amd cracked pepper.
4. A salad should be PRIMARILY about lettuce. Add
those small tomatoes or sliced fresh mushrooms or even
sliced chives .. But nothing else please .. and these
are not in any way necessary.
5. Use this salad dressing .. Get a small jar with a screw
on lid .. clearly designate it for this specific use.
Pour in roughly one inch of Good Olive Oil ( Italian preferably
from spoletto ) .. some balsamic vinegar ( about 10-15 % of
the amount of oil ) .. 2 crushed garlic cloves.. about a heaping
teaspoon of mustard .. any type .. a pinch of cumin
seed .. salt / pepper .. maybe some fresh dill or
fennel IF availble.
Shake this till emulsified and pour on salad. Mix with
two forks. The idea is for the leaves to be covered
with dressing but with no surplus in the bowl.
6. Serve with bruscetta .. Make Toast .. drizzle with
olive oil .. crush one garlic clove on each piece and
spread it around
7. Healthy and delicious .. serve with icy cold beer.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat May 30 1998 05:56 - ID#347267)
Kitco Charts
Hate to be a dumb-a**, but what do I need to do to get access to the Kitco 23 hr Gold Charts??? I tried using my handle and password: "Access Denied" !!!! What to Do??? TIA

(Sat May 30 1998 06:10 - ID#401460)
farfel wrote:
Date: Fri May 29 1998 19:31
farfel ( @NICODEMUS...unfortunately, I believe you can... )
...kiss Pegasus common stock good-bye.

The company will attempt to re-organize and it looks as
though it will be successful ( given that gold stays above
300 ) . However, the secured creditors will end up
owning ALL ( repeat...ALL ) the new common stock
issued ( probably in late Fall ) .

The only share purchases occurring today ( I would
imagine ) were purchases by shorts closing their


Press release:
On May 13, 1998, the Bankruptcy Court granted the Company an extension to the exclusive period to file a Plan of Reorganization to July 31, 1998. The exclusive period to solicit acceptances of such plan has been extended to September 30, 1998.

I have not found any press releases that affirm F* statements. All that I have found is a report that the reorganization is being extended, there has been no notice, that I cn find, that PGU is moving from chapt.11 to 7, full bankruptsy.

Any info. would be appreciated.


(Sat May 30 1998 06:17 - ID#401460)

What does this really mean?

Press Release:
"Based on evaluations of the Company's assets at current gold prices, the preliminary work on the Plan of Reorganization indicates that common shareholders of Pegasus Gold Inc. are unlikely to receive any value."

Are they going to just wipe out the existance of all shares, and form a new Co., or are they going to just reorganize under the same Co. and if all shares were redeemed today they would get nothing - But if they wait they will profit on the recovery of POG and the Co.?


(Sat May 30 1998 06:28 - ID#411331)
@ Farfel: Please come back. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, especially you. You are a
superb analyst of long term trends and fundamentals. It amused me to see
you and RJ argue at cross purposes. RJ is a short term trader, and chartist, while you look at the long term fundamentals and attempt to interpret trends into the farther future from a more human context.
BOTH POINTS OF VIEW ARE NEEDED AND WELCOME! It seems to me that both you and RJ, as goldbugs are victims of the present plight of gold, and its capacity to stir emotion. Nobody here is your enemy. Come back and help us learn to resist the manipulators on Wall St. and in the government.

As far as your opinion on Pegassus. Anyone who invests in a penny stock
must do so with their eys wide open. They are a crap shoot. If you thought they were a good speculative buy, thank you for your opinion, but everyone must to their own due diligence. In this complicated world, we can all do without unearned guilt trips.

If you leave, there will be a huge hole in the Kitco forum, and Wall Street has won another victory.

(Sat May 30 1998 06:43 - ID#411331)
@ All: I was talking to my financial analyst last November, and he said that
at that time his company ( Fortune Financial in Toronto ) had shifted 6% of
its assets into gold. I do not know in what form. This raised my opinion of the company. I still do not know if FF is Y2K compliant, and do not trust anyone in the company to tell me straight. Can anyone out there suggest a technique to test the compliancy of brokerages for Y2K?
FF charges CAN$70 to mail you actual stock certificates ( or you can liquidate, which costs about the same in commissions )

Oh yes: I don't care, I'm buying more.

(Sat May 30 1998 07:17 - ID#26793)
@EJ: Responding to your comments on Swiss gold sales.
I suspect that Swiss politicians are under the same pressure as U.S. politicians. The Swiss franc is "too high" in the opinion of the Swiss manufacturers and exporters. They can not compete in a floating currency world where devaluations make the products of others cheaper. The same complaint is made by U.S. manufacturers, especially auto, who are complaining about the "too high" dollar. Of course U.S. and Swiss citizens are proud of their strong currency, it allows them to by more at deflated import prices. Floating exchange rates are doomed. These political pressures will continue to spiral down all currencies to worthlessness. Deflation is an absolute sure thing. Worldwide depression is an absolute sure thing. The only survivors will be gold and silver holders.

(Sat May 30 1998 07:17 - ID#411331)
@ Bulldog: Mywife and I will also be looking for a haven in the countryside of Southern Ontario.
The most disquieting side of the Y2K threat is that 60% of Ontario power is nuclear, and some of these systems go back to the late seventies and
fortran. Add to the above problem of old nuclear plants, the problem of the Harris government. Harris is a failed teacher ( He was fired after
18 months as a probationary teacher back in the late '60s-early '70s and the reasons for the dismissal have vanished along with his records, although there are rumors that I cannot repeat here, but which disturb teachers and would disgust parents ) Harris keeps cutting education budgets ( only Mexico and Louisiana budget less for public education in
North American jurisdictions, and he has cut the civil service, welfare system, healthcare system and Ontario Hydro budgets ) Before all you goldbugs begin to applaud, these cutbacks have severely impeded these
institution's ability to supply even day-today services, and people are beginning to die in the hallways of Ontario hospitals. This gets me to my real point. This idiot has cut budgets at a time when extra money will be needed to solve the Y2K problem. It's time to get out of town, because on 01-01-00, Ontario will go dark, silent, and deadly.

(Sat May 30 1998 08:33 - ID#43349)
@John Disney - salads

Bad Weather Hurts Lettuce And Other Crops
Produce Shortage Will Affect Whole Country

"Most of the produce in
America comes from
California so everybody's
gonna feel it."
Bill Wilkinson

Friday, May 29,1998 - 09:42 PM ET

( CBS ) By the end of May Californians are supposed to be
basking in sunshine. The umbrellas should have been put
away weeks ago and the windshield wipers turned off until

But instead the rain just keeps falling. Weather records are
falling too. This is the most rain San Francisco has had in 135

Many Californians would say nature has hit a foul ball this
year. In the mountains snow banks remain along roads that
should be lined with wildflowers by now.

For farmers the unusually cold, wet weather is devastating.
The lettuce crop has been hard hit along with strawberries,
cherries and tomatoes.

Bill Wilkinson supplies vegetables to hotels and restaurants

"Most of the produce in America comes from
California so everybody's gonna feel it," said Wilkinson.

Across the country there's now a developing caesar salad
crisis brought on by a shortage of Romaine lettuce. But
Wilkinson says other kinds of lettuce are recovering from the
weather. Shoppers just have to show some flexibility.

According to Wilkinson, "Man does not exist on caesar
salad alone."

While many vegetables need sunshine to flourish, some like
the rain. This could turn out to be a good year for apricots.
And, asparagus lovers are in luck right now.

But there is uncertainty in California's vineyards. The vines
are blooming late and suffering in the rain but Winemaker
Jack Cakebread hasn't given up on the California
sun...needed for a great wine. He said, "I'm sure it will
come I really am. Sunshine always follows the rain."

Millions of Californians hope he's right.

(Sat May 30 1998 08:37 - ID#43349)
another view on the Fed
The dolla

By Paul E. Erdman, CBS MarketWatch
Thu May 28 16:28:49 1998

SAN FRANCISCO ( CBS.MW ) -- Historically, when adjusting short
term interest rates, the Federal Reserve makes its moves based almost
exclusively on domestic consideration e.g. domestic rates of inflation,
employment, growth.

This stands in stark contrast to the methodology used by most other
central banks around the world. Be it the Bank of England, the Swiss
National Bank, or the Bundesbank, high on the list of their criteria is the
effect that a change in domestic short-term interest rates will have on
international capital flows and thus on the exchange value of their currency

One reason for this is that in all these countries, international transactions
were of much greater significance, proportional to overall economic
activity, than in the United States.

Where the US is concerned, that has now changed. Exports are now a
key driving force in our economy. A large part of our national debt is in
foreign hands. Therefore, a case can be made that the Fed must now
gauge the international repercussions of their raising, or lowering, the Fed
funds rates before making a decision.

In the current environment, such international considerations speak against
the Fed raising rates.

Even at current interest rates, we are sucking funds out of countries and
regions where liquidity is badly needed to New York, where "excess"
liquidity is driving the markets and the economy to, perhaps, excessive
heights. Why? Because, with one exception, the U.K., we have the
highest interest rates in the developed world. Using equivalents to our Fed
Funds rate, the picture is this:

US 5 1/2 percent

Germany 3 1/2 percent

France 3 1/2 percent

Switzerland 1 1/2 percent

Japan 1/2 percent

To raise our rates even further would further distort the global flow of
capital and elevate the exchange value of the dollar to intolerable levels.

Economist and author Paul E. Erdman is a columnist for CBS

(Sat May 30 1998 08:42 - ID#344308)


where is your precioussssssss??

problems with crops? here is an opportunity...

and they are everywhere. stalk your prey...
shoot from the hip and aim for their lip......

the futures are awash with paper from this realm....

1000k in '98.....


Mr. Mick
(Sat May 30 1998 08:46 - ID#345321)
More American $$ going down the sh*tter.....................................
The International Monetary Fund has promised to give
Russia a loan of $670m, in order to stabilise the
country's financial markets.

The money is part of a $9.2bn IMF loan promised to
Russia, but the latest tranch had not been released for
several months because of disagreements over Russia's
economic reform programme.

The IMF's Russia expert,
John Odling-Smee, told a
news conference he did not
believe Moscow would have
any problem seeking support
at home or abroad, and that
Russian markets would soon

This week the Russian
government agreed on drastic
budget cuts to get public
spending under control, on a
renewed drive to privatise
state enterprises, and on measures to improve tax
collection, all steps which the IMF had called for.

Mr Odling-Smee praised the government's action plan.
He said the IMF could make the money available before
the end of June. However, he said the IMF would not
prepare an extra package to back up Russia's
deteriorating currency reserves.

The IMF's decision comes
after a week of turmoil on
Russia's financial markets,
which appeared to threaten
the political survival of both
the country's yound and
unexperienced Prime
Minister, Sergei Kiriyenko,
and President Boris Yeltsin.

While the Moscow stock
market crashed there was a
run on the Russian rouble,
while the government had to
cope with a cash crisis. The central bank raised the
interest rate three times within 10 days. Last
Wednesday, it tripled the rate to 150%, the highest level
since two years.

This countered rumours that the government was
contemplating a devaluation of the rouble. However, the
central bank now has used up nearly half its available
foreign cash since Russia's markets began to wobble
last October.

Experts said that the Russian economy could have
collapsed completely had the government failed to
contain the crisis.

However, the crisis is not over yet. On Friday, the ratings
agency Moody's downgraded Russia's sovereign debt
rating and that of several top Moscow banks.

(Sat May 30 1998 08:57 - ID#344308)

global warming???

cats ass!!

our weather is dictated by co2.........yes co2.

i've got the data on co2......quite un-pleasent to realize its'
implications....yes, i'd be happy to imply, as to why the sky
is high and dry.....already happening in s america, central america,
and texas.....bblwts

we are going to have the coldest winter on record next year....
we are going to have a major drought/heat wave this summer........

it's my limb......and my money.....and both are leaning towards
certain investments accordingly......grain calls.

don't be afraid of the lawnmower blade....

where is furry-stein?.....i miss a good laugh.

heard a song yester-day.....want to hear it? good, it goes like this..

furry-stein, furry-stein, what'cha gonna do? what'cha gonna do when we
come for you??? better haul @ss!!


(Sat May 30 1998 08:57 - ID#401183)
T.Young and Squirrel: I SALUTE YOU!
Your plan for success rivals any brought to my attention in my forty-six years of existence.
If evey goldmeister buys a minimum of 1/4 once gold coin a week, takes delivery, there is no doubt in my mind the impending collapse of fiat money would be accelerated and four digit gold values as expressed in ( valuable???? ) U.S. currency would be realized. Bought five onces of GOLD this week, and took advantage of ad in USA TODAY for one once of GOLD and one once of PLATINUM last week. Eating soup and salads, denying myself vices and perks to make purchases, but that GOLD reeks with power.

(Sat May 30 1998 09:09 - ID#284255)
US utilities switch off to year 2000

US federal authorities warned this week that some US utilities still remain in the dark about the year 2000 problem, writes Lisa Kelly. This co-oincided with reports from UK regulators, which said they had minimal power to ensure year 2000 compliance among the US power providers.

The US governments federal regulator for energy providers warned that some US electricity and fuel companies do not know the extent of their possible exposure to the Y2K bug.

(Sat May 30 1998 09:10 - ID#39828)
hepper, where are you
I prefer you to farfall and RogerramJet.

(Sat May 30 1998 09:16 - ID#427357)
Butler's Answer to Armstrong
Martin A. Armstrong

Dear Martin:

Thank you for your response to my recent comments and for the cordial tone of your reply. It was never my intent, nor is it now, to twist your thoughts or take them personal. I also concede that your specific price projections might prove true, as no one knows how the future may unfold. My only issue was with the reasons you use to back up those projections, and with your characterization of silver bulls as somehow fanatical and devoid of legitimacy in their view. Perhaps I was being overly sensitive in my comments, but I still am in fundamental disagreement with most of the points you make regarding silver. With utmost respect, I think these are main points of disagreement;

1. That there is something inherently wrong with moving silver from exchange listed form to non-reporting status. It always struck me as kind of stupid how anyone who owned large quantities of silver would leave it in full view in the COMEX where it was inevitably used as a main bear point. Also, given the history in this country of government involvement in silver matters, only a fool would store a significant quantity in full view and in invite of attachment. I would venture that even you ( certainly I ) would opt for the same payment and storage arrangements as Mr. Buffett, were you bullishly inclined and of sufficient means. ( And if its just your market disposition preventing same, you have my sincere congratulations ) . The point is that there is nothing evil in the desire for privacy or safety of ones assets.

2. That metal leasing is justified. I am not talking about central banks
selling outright or borrowing against precious metal holdings with someone else holding that collateral in return for a currency disbursement and with the expectation of a currency payoff and return of the collateral. I see nothing wrong in that. What I do see as the height of folly and manipulation is the more prevalent form of metal leasing, where the metal is sold, not loaned, forthwith into the market, thereby destroying or dispersing the collateral. The original owner does not receive the proceeds of the sale, only a below market interest rate and a hollow promise of actual metal replacement. Since the metal that was sold at the outset of this cock-eyed transaction is satisfying the ongoing production shortfalls, it is interfering with the normal supply demand equation and is price manipulative. Also, since there is no way the metal can be returned in the aggregate, the loans are fraudulent. Just because sovereign nations and prominent mining companies are involved, doesnt make these transactions less manipulative, crooked or dumb.

3. The short interest in silver is way out of line with any other commodity, or with what could be economically justified. From your reply, I see we do agree on one thing - the dangerous state of the derivatives market. The sheer size and the questionable ability to fulfill obligations in extremecircumstances makes many derivatives time bombs. However, in silver we have crossed the line by a wide margin. We have in silver, and have had for the past fifteen years, the impossible situation where the paper commitment is greater than either world production or known possible available supplies.
This situation, most definitely, does not exist in any other commodity, nor has it ever. The problem, as is clear to me, lies with the shorts and not the longs, although they are by definition equal in size. That is because the longs dont have to do much to fulfill their obligations - just pay for material delivered. The shorts have to deliver physical material, which by definition, because of the size of the short position compared to production and existing inventories, just doesnt exist. Its one thing to worry about the hidden exposure on some banks books ( as we both obviously do ) , but this is right out there for everyone to see. How can a short position of the magnitude of silvers be anything but manipulative and a fraud? How can you be short more of something than exists or could be produced?

Perhaps you might care to consider the above, as I would certainly be
interested in your thoughts.

Ted Butler

PS You might want to check your source on that Russian selling of 300million ozs of silver. In a good year ( none lately ) , Russia produced maybe 50 million ounces and consumed every bit. Besides, even if they had it, you shorts have been so effective they would only get measly $Billion and half. We both know theyve got a bigger problem than that.


With lethal logic Ted Butler cuts down Martin Armstrong with rapier precision in their duel debate about the PROMISING prospects of SILVER. Butler's rebuttal to Armstrong's recent SILVER reports is called "BLACK & WHITE." Remember to delete the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" of the URL before position to Internet locator:

(Sat May 30 1998 09:22 - ID#222231)
Farfel, I have always respected and enjoyed your posts. This site could use more humor and thoughtful retrospection such as you imparted. You are a true goldbug, while some are nothing but egotistical opportunists.

There is noone ( NOONE ) , including RJ ( LGB ) who has'nt made a bad call. RJ ( LGB ) , made several bad calls recently which may have influenced others to lose a substantial amount, namely the call of a sizable number of contracts to buy silver when it hit $5.75/oz. There were other calls also that did not pan out as the great RJ ( LGB ) said they would. I will not elaborate them here, most know what these so called great calls were. He has made some that were good also, but then again, everyone, including myself, hits a pig in a poke once in a while. WHY many think of RJ ( LGB ) as a Messiah in disguise is beyond me.

RJ, you may be fooling many here, but you do not fool me any longer. If you are not LGB, LIBERTY, LIBERTY_A, ( or whatever ) , then you must be twins ( IDENTICAL ) . ( CONSIDER THE MO, HUMILITY, NEED TO GET IN THE LAST WORD AND OTHER OBVIOUS SIMILARITIES THAT ARE HARD TO IGNORE ) .

F*, some people cause happiness wherever they go, ( You my friend ) , and some people cause happiness whenever they go. ( But never do )


(Sat May 30 1998 09:34 - ID#286230)
Now Now
rhody: My my. Harris is a self made millionaire a lot faster than he would be if he had remained a school teacher. The Ontario school system has been increasing its budget for over 25 years with a declining number of students and the schools are run by members of the teachers union. I expect a 30% cutback could be made and have no effect on the students--just a lot of bureaucrats. The Nuclear plants are not a problem since most are now shut down anyway and conventional electricity is being increased to suit. The Ontario Gov as well as the Federal gov and, as of yesterday the Toronto Stock exchange, are all working away at living beyond YK2 with their various computers. I worked in Ontario hospitals for over 25 years--corridor after corridor of closed wards and half needed buildings are the rule. Consolidating they empty beds is way over due--and nobody died from a lack of beds yet.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:03 - ID#342315)
Sharefin re Stack
That comment you made earlier about Stack's work sounds appropriate. Have you got a URL or an address? Thanx

(Sat May 30 1998 10:04 - ID#263379)
Just for the record, As I just read your post. I am a lurker, learner, over 50, and have no affiliation with anyone here, nor do I make any posts under another name. I own gold stocks and am extremely concerned about this bear cycle. Many here share in this devastation to worth.
I appreciate most posts and do not appreciate completely off subject ( non gold related ) posts or disagreements. I greatly appreciate the analysts and analytical debates and predictions. That what this forum is all about!

As for me, I will never make a prediction because I am consistantly wrong. After all, I own a wealth of gold mining shares.....

(Sat May 30 1998 10:10 - ID#230244)
Information received yesterday tells me PEGASUS is not ready for burial yet. If you want info on it drop me a line at I will give you a phone # to call. Then you be the judge. Do not beleive all the statements made on this site some poster are streaching facts.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:15 - ID#207145)
Disasterous 14 days ahead.
Starting Monday, Dow 30, SP500, Nasdac, will take a dive as Joe Sixpac realizes bonds or utilities might cover his arse. 2 days of contemplating profits of 5% will resonate poorly. Look out below, as this house of cards is comming down.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:25 - ID#401349)
Sawadee F*
What is all the maudlin concern about this Farfel character leaving the site? I agree he contributes some interesting banter at times but his analysis is mostly tripe. He'll be back in all his glory when gold starts going the other way -- as will all the others plus. As for making investment decisions based on what is said on this site by anyone is nothing more than foolishness. The sum total of information here is very meaningful and does influence me somewhat in a strategic sense, but it is only one of many inputs that get factored into an overall sense of preserving capital in an increasingly uncertain world. Oh by the way, announcing ones "decision" to leave is just a form of manipulation anyway.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:35 - ID#230244)
Well said I have been watching this site since last October and find it very amusing. Even interesting at times. Lots of emotions lots of little boys game. Even you use the info on this site to invest you need to have your head examine. Gold is down for one simple reason too much inventory. When demand exeeds offer the price will go up. I do not care how many analysis are done how many charts you use. It is very basic Watson. High demand high price. low demand low price. We are still quite a few months away from a real recovery.Investing is for serious people. Have a good day. I am shure you are doing ok.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:35 - ID#215235)
Check out the Bloomberg site. Gold up $2.50 in the June contract. Is this a misquote or portent of a turnaround?

(Sat May 30 1998 10:36 - ID#344308)


STRETCHING is one thing........streaching is quite another...

sentience aside......what the hell happened to the reading and
writing abilities of the us-carbo-earth-anouts? during the last
10 years the english language has suffered an ebonics-type
bastardazation that is dis-graceful. the wealthiest ( for now ) nation
on earth is going to lose in a snippit, what took 200 years to
accomplish. the learning curve has topped, and is now progressing
with greater and greater rapidity down-ward. the un-edjimakated
masses-------hari seldon---isaac asimovs' futuristic private-eye
knew all too well the implications of dis-enfrancised peopleo---masses--

when the peopleo BEGIN to realize what has been will be too
late.....when the millions living on the edge are eviscerated from
financial stem to sternum.......hari and i will be toasting the wonders
of life as given by god........AWAKEN......and smell the gunpowder....
the maisma wafts ever will you and yours survive
what cannot be stopped? the grasshopper or the ant.....the choice
yours.......accept the hand dealt......or force the dealer to deal
play your game.........


(Sat May 30 1998 10:41 - ID#153102)
 1998 Donald/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I suspect that Swiss politicians are under the same pressure as U.S.
"The Swiss franc is "too high" in the opinion of the Swiss
manufacturers and exporters. They can not compete in a floating currency
world where devaluations make the products of others cheaper. The same
complaint is made by U.S. manufacturers, especially auto, who are
complaining about the "too high" dollar. Of course U.S. and Swiss
citizens are proud of their strong currency, it allows them to by more
at deflated import prices. Floating exchange rates are doomed. These
political pressures will continue to spiral down all currencies to
worthlessness. Deflation is an absolute sure thing. Worldwide depression
is an absolute sure thing. The only survivors will be gold and silver

I'm with you on this down to the last sentence. I think the caring, sharing people with their hands on the levers of legal use of force will expand Electronics Benefit Transfer, which will be the suriviving form of Legal Tender for domestic transactions, and they will send their armed mercenaries out to collect people and things and to enforce acceptance of the EBT. This will be a joint federal-state-local exercise of "Federalism" as spelled out in the President's E.O. issued in Birmingham England.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:41 - ID#207145)
Quion 97
If you are so damned brilliant, then when do you see gold going up, and wont you be the rich one?

(Sat May 30 1998 10:43 - ID#207145)
Afew months wont do it, unless you feel Asia is only a few from recovery.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:48 - ID#207145)
Prolonged market downturn might do the trick.
However, i speculate. God doesn't speak directly to me.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:52 - ID#207145)
investment demand takes care of inventory.
There is no inflation, bonds and dollar are preferred, thusly, no investment demand. No investors taking del. Investors cause tight supply by buyig heavily with purpose.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:57 - ID#230244)
You have it wrong, you do not have to be brilliant, but PATIENT and abke to afford the risk.When I say a few months you are right Asia will not help at this stage. A few months a my age is 6 to 8.Whos counting gold as been down since its high of what $800 lets say. A very long time 15 18 years whos counting.Patience.

(Sat May 30 1998 10:57 - ID#153102)
And the landscape is filled with peopleo who think three branches of government can't snuff liberty as effectively as one branch - even when all three branches are occupied by the same malfeasors - attorneys.

The work of destruction has been going on in earnest for seventy years. After the aborted Nixon coup, it has accelerated. The state of learning is every bit as bad as you say.

What are you going to do to help people who think green printed paper is money ?

(Sat May 30 1998 10:58 - ID#288369)
@I was born to lie........lay around and lie all the day long, brother........
Who has my money? I sho' need some of it back now. Give it up now! Don't lie to me no more.....lie'en out da arse....who dat lien'?

Farfel, get yo' lien' arse back on home,' 'bout the furure is what we specialize in, brother......don't tink 'bout it.

dung beetle
(Sat May 30 1998 11:02 - ID#272234)
O ye verily.....
As the great lions of the plains ( RJ & Farfel ) fight over the last morsel of TRUTH, it may be wise for others to hide with what's in their THOUGHTS.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:03 - ID#344308)

blanket statements about the group usually end-up with
the blanket being break-fast for the initiator of the

better think twice before hitting the submit button......
phalanges do not reproduce them-selves......

'if i have seen farther than others, it is because i have
stood on the shoulders of giants' .......sir isaac newton

time for the giants to step on the worms and ankle-biters that
have crawled-up from the darkness they know as home...light
in its' most brilliant form exists is beautiful, and is a 20gw laser.....

chastity belts will be used instead of muzzles for the ones bold
enough to run the gauntlet......mine shall be the first blow felt....
none others needed, as the blade meets the bone....

either add, lurk, or perish amidst the flaming-cyber-arrows.....


(Sat May 30 1998 11:04 - ID#45173)
Gollum: good catch on Marketwatch; Donald, thx on Swiss gold
Gollum, Holy cow! I figured the Fed's paralysis on interest rates came from fears of pricking the stock market bubble. Not that they don't want it to go down, but the Fed doesn't want to be blamed for "causing a stock market crash" even though the cause is the bubble and an interest rate hike a catalyst for reversal. Now I see there's another reason. If raising rates does not crash the stock market because of the perceived expectation of inflation, it is likely to make the bubble even bigger due to increased inflows. Do I have that right? Talk about a bind.

Donald, with few exceptions, such as when the Pound came under speculative attack, the free-floating currency exchange system has been relatively stable for major currencies ( if you consider the Thai and Indonesian currencies for the sake of argument to be minor ) for the past 30 years, due largely to the interventions of CBs. Can imagine a scenario where the system is thrown into chaos, with CBs at a loss to overcome speculative pressures on their currencies?


(Sat May 30 1998 11:06 - ID#207145)
I can tell that you are a highly intelligent gold investor, and I'm sure every poster will be hanging on your words, and since I have it wrong, i guess it's because I dont have much education, and I hope you'll have pity on us inferrior, backwoods types.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:10 - ID#404189)
...where at the site did you see that quote, DUTCHMAN?

(Sat May 30 1998 11:11 - ID#230244)
Nice to see you are awake this morning,if you ar offended by my statements, it probably because they suit you.
have a good day.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:14 - ID#344308)

sir mozel--

the same thing i have been doing for almost 2 years here @ kitco...

telling the truth, in another fashion----

your message here, was mine many moons deal with absolute
minutae, i deal with abstract absolutes that tell the same story with-out
the minutae....we are brothers in thought, and most assuredly, blood.

i salute you only speak of facts....the peopleo who
complain of you are intimidated by their own in-securities....

you allow them to 'see' their vulnerabilities......and they rebel against the truth....they are vulnerable.

your seat on the smoke-signal-mobile awaits......your golden feather
and seat of honor will remain un-til your arrival.....


(Sat May 30 1998 11:16 - ID#288369)
@Get dat money for yo' lien'....get ya' some more now...'cause you sho' need more of it.
sho' nuff....each and every day. And when you got somethin' ta' sell, specialize in those lies ya' best tell.....and when you got somethin' that ya' need...just tell 'em ta' grab those knees....and let 'em hear them words that please.

lien' in da' blues, o' this here hot mornin', yea.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:16 - ID#207145)
Quion 97. Peace brother
We are speculators, and you are right, icant wait forever, as I don't have the patience. Right now I'm practicing patience, as I see disaster just ahead. This market is crazy overvalued,.No earnings. If the market falls money will leave= dollar goes down, bonds do too. So, hell theres a chance we don't have to wait forever. If we do bonds it is.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:16 - ID#373403)
Three day spot gold chart
How come my password and username for posting to this board does not work to enter the three day chart? Do I need to register separately for that too?

p.s. What is the secret of spot prices anyways? Don't we want to encourage broader participation in metals investment?

(Sat May 30 1998 11:18 - ID#268260)
Go to - The site has June gold up $2.50 at $295.20.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:22 - ID#344308)


you do not offend me.......your semi-literacy is evidenced by
the skills you bring to the keyboard, and the investment arena.

your calls have been nothing short of....well, nothing...
gee thanks.... when discombobulation escapes you, and
your spelling skills exceed my 10 year old son......
and your syntax matches my 7 year old daughter.........
try to tell us all how great you are.

now, the denizens of the dark are calling.......quinine, oh quinine...
your blanket breakfast awaits.......


(Sat May 30 1998 11:26 - ID#288369)
take that cattle converter off that smoke mobile and let them pipes rack and roar....suckin co2 and dat' smoke from mejico. a goodest day to ya. studio.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:30 - ID#207145)
I've enjoyed listening to this bunch for over a year,
without posting. I wanted to learn something about investing, and about gold. I thoroughly enjoy it except for the rancor. If anyone doesn't like Kitco; they can get their asses on down the road. Iffin' they do then stick around to learn, not pontificate ( nor deficate on any poster ) .

(Sat May 30 1998 11:32 - ID#230244)
Life in and out of the market is not that dark. You are right whem you listen to all the negative comments things have a tendency to look bleak.Please keep in mind that many people out there are in for thier own pockets. That includes brokers forecasters publishers of new letters. anyone who has a product to sell. The way I look at investing is a thing of confort. Make your portfolio confortable. Life does not change rapidly as people want it to change. My way of investing in gold is to buy convertibles. They pay interest while you wait for the price to go up. You get the same trills the bumpy rides. The blues or whatever but at least twice a year you get interest payments.I do not view the world a dark bad and dangerous. It is sunny today. Rain may come to morrow. si what after the rain sunhine. It may sound simple , it is but I am happy and succesfull invester. Some days I loose some days I win. Over the past 25 years I have won and have the intentions to keep winning

Sorry If I offended you this morning ,only meant to kick the dust this morning and get the blood flowing on a great day.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:33 - ID#411112)
John Disney...What A call,superb a bookmark...then again I live in the desert today will be a hot

one.......salad by the pool anyone.....

(Sat May 30 1998 11:35 - ID#153102)
Honored to have a seat on the ssm. Glad you're back to post.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:36 - ID#411112)
Blooper....we come here because we like to be abused,its fun where else an crap good decent folk

....stand by this weekend should be more fun than last week

John Disney__A
(Sat May 30 1998 11:39 - ID#24135)
A Salad Crisis!!!
Gollum ..
What a blow .. what will the poor devils
do without Lettuce ???????

(Sat May 30 1998 11:40 - ID#207145)
Quinon 97YOU ARE WRONG is not a great kickoff.
I am wrong, but i dont like being told about it. Your mannersneed improving, so you dont get Nuked. I,ll bet i,m not alone. These guys are a lot of fun. If they weren't I never would have posted. You may have a lot to add here, but one needs to be civil. Anyway, when this dust storm settles we can get on with it.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:41 - ID#411112)
Should read.......where else can you crap on good decent

(Sat May 30 1998 11:43 - ID#20137)
Didn't take long to get rid of...
99,895 ounces of gold they rammed into comex the other day. Eligible stores dropped by 40%. We are once again close ( 2x,xxx ounces as my memory serves me ) to our lows in eligible stocks for the year.

As you can see, both silver eligible stocks and copper stocks also continue to fall.


warehouse stocks:
-- GOLD ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Prev. Received Net. Adjust- Total
Total Withdrawn Chg. ment Today

827,858 0 0 0 99,895 927,753
249,463 0 0 0 -99,895 149,568
1,077,321 0 0 0 1 1,077,321


Gold 30,000
Silver 18,000
H.G. Copper 7,000

-- ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Net. Adjust- Total
Chg. ment Today

0 0 37,347,768
-912,217 0 52,985,545
-912,217 0 90,333,313

Warehouse stocks:

Copper - high-grade cathodes ( in short tons )
point previous received withdrawn net chg total

Total 86,282 0 1,520 -1,520 84,762

(Sat May 30 1998 11:43 - ID#230244)
By your comments I can tell you are a very happy man. How I envy your superior attitude.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:45 - ID#288369)
@goin' down to the musac store.......
and get me some of those silvered strings...a box on new blues for that old gibson pal o' mine....bbl select that blues category....please. love and happiness....preacher

(Sat May 30 1998 11:45 - ID#207145)
Remind me never to piss you off. If you don't mind i hope to be on good terms with you dude.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:47 - ID#43349)
You got it. Like I said inflation isn't so hard
to deal with, but deflation is a bear. Raising
rates can make things worse because the high
dollar has put us at the vortex of inflowing
cash and higher real rate will attract even more

But lowering rates could overstimulate the economy,
inflate the bubble even more, and the rising markets
attract even more cash.

More demand for dollar denominated bonds or equities
raises the dollar even more and the inflow gets worse.

What's a poor Fed to do?

(Sat May 30 1998 11:49 - ID#43349)
@John Disney
Yup. Seems like there's a crises in everything

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 11:52 - ID#384350)
Gold Comments 25 may Harry Schultz Letter, +32 16 533684
website with free back issues:
Lambasts Barrick's for forward selling ( 10 million oz, forward ) which is akin to major CB selling; eating their young.
Says that in the 70's, most people bought physical bars or coin, which was raw demand; today they switched to buying options/futures which has only a modest effect on demand.
Cites Y2k awareness as banks & maybe Stock exchanges will be forced to close.
Says from '86, XAU monthly has positive stoichastics, daily & weekly less so, which usually means base building.
If Euro has strong backing ( 20-30% ) it will help Au price, if 10%, won't help either Euro or Au.
Cites Joe Ross as saying that since the 11 nations are in Euro, they have no need to sell gold to try to qualify. Sees Dec Gold Call options as a good idea.
Silver & Platinum: Await deeper correction.

(Sat May 30 1998 11:55 - ID#207145)
Quinon67 You may be a bright and sunny guy,
But if you invest in stocks, I hate to piss on your parade, but Forces Of Darkness are gathering. 35% overvalued comes to mind. I always turn-Isay TURN negative. When I,m making money, I am quite positive. It's like when i'm not gettin any i'm negative. Oh to be positive all the time. Wheres my Viagra.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:03 - ID#284255)
Digisys at your doorstep.
Worth a bookmark.

I haven't seen the chart.
Just the comment.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:05 - ID#284255)
Digisys at your doorstep.
Worth a bookmark.

I haven't seen the chart.
Just the comment.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:06 - ID#45173)
Thin skinned debators
Hey. Anyone wanna talk about guuuuuns? Nah, we did that last weekend.

Seems few here agree with my philisophy that gun laws that benefit individuals do not always benefit society as a whole. And that gets to the heart of many issues, whether it's guns or drugs or abortion or whatever the government tries to regulate ostensibly for the good of all. I completely respect the opinion of those who disagree with me that society benefits from more gun regulation just as I respect those who disagree with my opinion that society benefits from less drug regulation. I will nonetheless express my opinion vehemently and take no prisoners.

The greatness of this site derives from its subject matter: precious metals. Precious metals investors are, by virtue of the existance in this equities-happy present investment climate, necessarily independent thinkers. This is a collection of independent thinkers. And when we feel passionate about our opinions, we express them with passion.

Long live passionate argument! Long live those with the courage of a conviction!

(Sat May 30 1998 12:09 - ID#22956)
*ERLE*.....(who takes the good natured *stab*).... ;-) ohmy!

awaytoask EB how his plats are doing..........


Well ERLE....thanks for asking. My plats took a right beating last case you weren't watching. I will still be holding some rather worthless ( they will be worth less than I payed ) July options upon expiry ( maybe ) . I, like many, ( or some, don't really care who ) thought we were ready for the big run of the year. It will be postponed a bit, eh? I do not mind so much because I have been using ( LARGE ) profits from last years Platinum BULL & Gold BEAR runs............ ( LARGE ) .

ERLE ( the pearl ) , if you are not in Platinum at this point or at some point in the VERY near future then that is your decision and a right one at that...... ( for every decision you make on your own is a right one regardless if it makes you money or not ) . I, EB, ( Eric to those who know me ) will be sooooooooo heavily DEEP into October Platinum that I may drown because it will be WELL past my ankles/shins/knees/nipples and EARS.

I am trading Platinum for a number of reasons. Platinum's average low ( in none critical years ) is $381.00. Platinum's average is $447.00 and Platinum's high is $512.00. The average price swing ( in one trading year ) is $131.00. That represents a SIGNIFICANT move and SIGNIFICANT possibilities for profit. I WILL PROFIT AGAIN in PLATINUM. ( period ) . btw.......Plat is unlike gold in both price swing and supply/demand features. I would rather be in Plat than gold right now ( period ) ( . ) .

One concern I do have is when John D spoke of his genes.....and said his work brings plat to 330-340. BUT, that is a HUGE bargain and I will buy there too......HEAVILY ( ! )

IN SHORT: I LOVE plat at these prices.....I bought Oct. Friday and will be buying MORE next week as I watch it unfold ( down or up ) . We might be sitting in front of our 'putas on Sunday afternoon ( CAL time ) watching this thingy unfold........and that would break my heart............................. ( NOT ) .

Thanks for asking ERLE...............uh huh. feel comfort in *knowing*


i can see clearly now the rain is gone

i can see all obstacles in my way

gone are the dark clouds that had me blind

it's gonna be a bright, bright sunshiny day!

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 12:09 - ID#384350)
mozel et al, Y2K
Harry Schultz Letter,
also says, "Clinton will declare a state of emergency well before Jan 1, 2000; civil rights suspended. Airlines will ground themselves a week ahead, IMO, & maybe for months after."

He also brings up what I have mentioned here before. What will happen to banks who lend on fractional reserves, when people start clamouring for cash?

He says, "Fiat money system means that banks don't have your money; it's loaned out on a 5-1 ratio ( or more ) . So what happens when 20% of the people want their money; it's not there & fiat pyramid collapses. And bank runs will surely occur, not only in 2000, but in 1999, and maybe even 1998."

I add, will the Fed loan money to these banks to keep them afloat? Will this cause hyper-inflation, or only if people spend the cash? Will the Fed, USG overlook reserve requirements? Will withdrawals be limited? Will banks close, will the NYSE be shut down?

Have Gold, will travel.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:09 - ID#284255)
Don't enact any more laws, computer industry begs Europe

"What has to be fixed are the key utilities like the electricity supply and telecommunications," he warned. "If they go wrong, then civil unrest is not far away."

"Every piece of legislation and every new regulation has an impact on information technology," said Clayton. "IT is the oil in the machine of modern economies, and we just can't cope.

Too little, too late to halt time bomb
Tick, tick, tick ... there are now 581 days - just over 19 months left until January 1, 2000.

The Government has had a rude awakening - at last acknowledging that it needs to do much more about the millennium bug.

Belatedly, the Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, admits for the first time that the representation of the year 2000 date in computers and embedded microchips is a problem - one that could seriously affect "the delivery of a number of public services, like water, sewerage and electricity."

The huge scale of the problem is yet to be realised. Savvy businesses are now grappling with how to ensure their trading partners and suppliers are compliant as well - and what to do should there be an infrastructure collapse such as Auckland's inner city power crisis.

They are also trying to figure out if their phone systems, lifts, security cards and fax machines will work, and just how many other electrical appliances and machinery are also controlled by out-of-date microchips.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:11 - ID#251238)
Ted Butler
Dear Ted:

It seems that whatever I have to say somehow you twist it around and just don't get my point or take it personal.

1 ) I do not support the CFTC. I am very concerned that this agency is
interested only in power and profit - not in defending the market against manipulators.

2 ) I am very concerned about their latest proposed rules to regulate the off-exchange business. They have been trying for years to get their hands on the cash markets particularly the metals. My fear is that these rules are about expanding their power. You might recall the CFTC attacking foreign banks and banning them from trading in the US following the Hunt deal. While they eventually lost in court, they tried to expand their power worldwide back then.

3 ) There is a difference between buying silver and moving it to
non-reported warehouses and buying silver and leaving in the US. This has NOTHING to do about paper vs physical.

4 ) In my opinion, your concern about leasing is not justified. I advise a few countries who lease their gold. Many of these smaller third world
nations do so because they DO NOT want to sell their gold. However, they
need the cash. They are borrowing money against an asset and in no way are they trying to manipulate a market. If that were the case, they would leverage that asset - they do not. Gold mines can borrow money cheaper against their reserves, but in turn the banks want to be assured that the collateral is fixed - thus they sell forward.

5 ) While I have consistently believed that their would be a bull market
hopefully following a low in 1998, I also believe that it will be the
derivatives markets that help to accelerate that move. However, I believe there is a HUGE difference between the derivatives markets used by specs and created by the banks compared to legitimate leasing and gold loans. The derivatives are NOT keeping gold or silver down. They exist in the currencies, bonds and just about everything else in sight. Many such instruments have blown up in Japan, Korea and Asia. While the fallout has yet to make headlines - I know first hand the damage they have caused overseas. But keep one thing in mind. The banks who wrote the derivatives on Japanese banks shares lost big time. The two biggest losers are well known French banks - one of whom is now shutting down its officies in Tokyo.

The metals are not moving higher because it is not time. That time will
come when we begin to see a shift in the capital flows thus bringing about a change in the global economy. Perhaps it is soon. Perhaps we must wait another year. Right now, deflation is swirling all around us which in turn is causing selling from these regions instead of buying. For now, Europeans are too bullish on the Euro to be bothered by gold investments. When the Euro doesn't pan out as they had hoped, you just might be shocked by a shift in sentiment that will lead to a real sustainable bull market for perhaps a 7-year run.

My view on silver is one of concern that the unreported stockpiles in
London may cause a similar situation to that of copper. I cannot see why
you would support a system where the dealers know the truth, have an inside advantage that the general public does not, and then use that advantage to both send silver soaring as well as then turn around against the longs and go for their stops. I am in support of a fair market where inside information is not intentionally withheld from the public for the benefit of a few big trading houses in London.

Martin A. Armstrong

(Sat May 30 1998 12:13 - ID#22956)
thanks for are a good soul. the weekend


goodbye F* will be back.......guar-an-damn-tee!

(Sat May 30 1998 12:13 - ID#251238)
Armstrong vs Butler
previous post was Broadcast EMAIL from Princeton site

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 12:14 - ID#384350)
Y2K bank runs
I should add if people run on banks, will the banks be forced to call in loans, and wham, bam firesale deflation ensues.

Clinton's New America. There will be order, but at what price?

(Sat May 30 1998 12:15 - ID#230244)
YOU are right very high overvalued,the stocks I owned are blue chips. Many have high % gains since purchased not to worry I always keep my stop lost on each stock between 10 and 12% have lost a few this way last fall. Also own short term bonds, and gold naturally convertibles that is.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:17 - ID#22956)
before I go.......(not for good).......
here are some Friday Comments.....good ones:
away.......uh huh.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:26 - ID#207145)
Excellent strategy. I must wait for a bear bottom to invest. I came along late, no too late to invest. I am a speculator, currently in bonds. I look forward to investing in P&G, Coke, etc. I can't dollar cost average this late in the cycle. I see soney to be made in energy this year ( maybe gold ) . By 1999 I see chance to invest. I would rather be where you are now, but am a late bloomer as investor.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:27 - ID#373403)
Gianni Dioro
Do people really keep money in banks anymore? Seems like transactional money only. Business keeps excess cash in inventory. Individuals keep spare money in stock market and are net insolvent anyways.

If you are living paycheck to paycheck why run on the banks? Worst scenario for markets and best for gold would be a simultaneous Y2K problem and stock market selldown. THEN money would become a hot potato.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:30 - ID#43349)
@EJ The big picture
As I see it, the Feds actions, these many years
has created the vortex of inflow. Foreign investors
rush to cash in their Yen and won an rubles in
for dollars so they can buy safe haven stocks,
bonds, and other securities. The dollars then
come back in return for those instruments which
causes a buildup in liquidity which the Fed has
to constantly keep draining to hold the rates
more or less fixed.

Since the foreign investors are not investing in
their own economies they get in trouble, their
economies falter and demand for commodities goes

Not that they care, since their yen are now
safely ( so they think ) in nice safe US negotiables
and earning good interest to boot.

Eventually the lack of demand slows, perhaps dramatically,
the US economy also...

(Sat May 30 1998 12:36 - ID#207145)
Quinon97Look out for Russel,and small stocks'
and be aware that the next phase of market may be flow of funds into small stocks. This is the last speculative phase before the market breaks, and cac be verry hard on DOW30. Look for recovery to old highs in August Then a hard fall in Oct.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:37 - ID#411112)
EJ...Stand up and defend yourself..starting a bit early ain't you...let me fill up on caffin I"ll BE


(Sat May 30 1998 12:40 - ID#207145)
Quinon 97
Resession next year will be a shock to both Fed and Clinton Admin. No thing can be done as sequence of events in Asia have started a chain reaction.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:48 - ID#207145)
1999 recession due to Asia, Y2K, spent out consumers. Unemployment.
Thats why I have a rather bleak , negative attitude regarding the markets. Things have been so good fof so long, people will take the slowdown quite hard, and President Clinton will be blamed for big time layoffs which he helped create ( NAFTA ) , Giant sucking sound will be Democrats leaving Washington.

(Sat May 30 1998 12:50 - ID#344308)

happiness is strapping one-self into the ssm for a trip
of truth....don't tug on supermans' cape....

the-fin-who-shares---thanks my friend.

eb--better get those snow ski edges just right...we will
meet winter '98-'99 for some schussing in utah...this will
be highly touted....the REAL kitco bash....1'st ever.....
i'll set the time and place......more on it as the hottest and
driest summer ever, fades into the coldest and harshest winter ever....

the limb of truth..

'for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction' sir isaac...

the future awaits those willing to look at the past.......


(Sat May 30 1998 12:53 - ID#207145)
What do you think about the Energy sector going forward.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:01 - ID#344308)


i'm buying crude calls faster than the gold calls normally
touted here. we have a reputable poster here, who has started
a company which acquires oil, gas, and pm properties....

arden.......where are you????

(Sat May 30 1998 13:08 - ID#373284)
and HE was so very thank filled
upon the gleem in His MUMMs eyes...he went and knelt beneath the tree of woe that his tears might infinity of suffering...unto the roots his soul crept...

(Sat May 30 1998 13:10 - ID#153102)
@Read & Heed
The national security camp guards are waiting for arrivals. You can find the camps if you dare to look for 'em.
FEMA is meeting with its clones in the States. This from the local newspaper.
The Executive Orders are written in HANDWRITING ON THE WALL.

The other two branches of government will stand and watch while the Commander In Chief acts as they always have. Lincoln, Destroyer of a Nation, showed how to do it. ( His arrest order for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was always in his top desk drawer, ) Hell, the Army is the only thing standing between the attorneys that infest the land and the hanging they deserve.

This is not rule of law though they will call it legal. This is rule of man over man with incomprehensible reams of regulations as their tool. They will rule for the greater good of society. All the EJ's with brains dressed in short pants will justify them. There will be a lot of sharing and caring. At the expense of those who prepared and saved as usual. The curtain is coming down. The lights are going out. Markets will be black. Managed trade and managed commerce under strict control and regulation are coming this way from Europe. There will be World Order, world control of capital, and world slavery to usury and fiat paper. And it will be told to you as the best thing since sliced bread.

He who knows when to run away lives to fight another day.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:13 - ID#411112)
Mozel..great post...EJ come out and play :)


(Sat May 30 1998 13:17 - ID#392228)

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 13:17 - ID#384350)
Disney et al, Andorra & Channel Islands
I visited Andorra last summer, and it is pretty cheap. A bottle of Absolut was $8. Appartments were affordable.

Drawbacks: It has recently lost its status of dual rule, and is now a country just like any other, and is amassing debt. I saw on a TV program that they had a deficit of $100 million. Someone verified that it was more like $30 million/yr. The $100 million might have come from the year when they sponsored the stupid Olympic Games for weenie nations.

Welcome to the world of USURY. I can't say if that's the case for Andorra, but it seems like The Bank likes to bribe politicians into taking their countries into debt and then extracting resources or imperialism over it.

Andorra was looking into enacting new taxes. As of now most tax is usually a once a year property tax of several thousand dollars. They have now started enforcing a presence test to make sure people like Naomi Cambell who claim they are resident in Andorra so as to avoid taxes, actually spend 6 months a year there ( I wonder who's pushing this issue ) . There was also pressure from the Spanish govt, who wanted to force Andorra to let seasonal workers from Spain stay in Andorra after the season was over and have Andorra pay them unemployment benefits. USURY is slowly starting to ruin Andorra.

Andorra is also dab smack in the middle of Euroland. When leaving by bus into France, the French border police stopped the bus and searched people's bags looking for contraband ( cigarrettes, etc ) . I read in The Sunday Times, that France has a law requiring disclosure of movement of more than 5000 over its borders. Non-conformers may have their property confiscated.

Andorra, might be a good place for PT ( part time ) living, but I don't think it's the best place for a goldbug looking for a full time place to live.

As to the Channel Islands, the Isle of man is in a nuclear dump zone from Sellafield in Wales. The same goes for Jersey, Guernsey, Sark, and Alderney, with the French Nuclear behemoth at Cape de la Hague.

Alderney has the most affordable housing, but again is in a Nuclear zone. It seemed boring as well in the winter months. Summer might not be bad with the beaches.

Also, all of these islands are under attack by Big Brother ( UK, US ) for their tax advantages. I also found that banks I encountered there won't sell you physical gold. One bank said they could buy it for me, but they wouldn't allow me to take delivery.

I think it's best to be far away from the evil nations of the US and UK who have a history of tyranny, imperialism, usury, and banning gold coin as circulated currency.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:23 - ID#242325)
Farfel: Hope your absence from Kitco is a short one.

Thanks to whoever posted the Armstrong reply to Butler!

Reify: Long-term investing indeed is the way to go if we are in a bull market. With gold the hopes of many of us that we had enetered a bull market were premature. The bear may be over, but it has been replaced by a trading range, not a new bull. Not yet anyway.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:23 - ID#230244)
Being conservative investor ( except for my gold addiction ) my wife calls that yellow crap. These days she wins,the growth of my portfolio year to date is 8.8% including the gold convertibles which brings the port folio down. As far as Y2K the news is not great although many excellent firms are doing Ok,for example Unilever Canada will be compliant by October 1998. Their main worry by what I understand is their suppliers.Bell Canada the largest phone this country will be compliant by October 1998.It appears that the Canadian banks are well underway. I am however still concerned I just sold a Florida property. We where ready to purchase in an other location. ( Naples ) but decided to invest the money and we will rent until the spring of 2000. If what we read is on the money we will pick up a nice property at a large discount. Apparently cash will be king.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:25 - ID#287186)
The Democrat Socialists will be Stricken In America
Thank God Clinton will be in long enough for his fellow Democrats to be on the Bridge to the 21st century when it collapses due to his neglect.
He and his cohorts will reap what they have sowed!
Before this weekend starts - grab the above bait and head for:
where you will find the following Newsgroups ( NGs )


** alt.politics.economics
** alt.politics.libertarian

(Sat May 30 1998 13:25 - ID#392228)
You said, "It seems few here agree with my philisophy ( sic ) that gun laws that benefit individuals do not always benefit society as a whole."

As is common, the problem is not the argument, it is the premise. Who says that laws should "benefit" society as a whole? Some issues, such as personal freedom and rights, go beyond quantitative measures of "benefit". It would "benefit" society to "terminate" or at least "sterilize" physically "defective" children.

Once you change the postulates of the argument to a morally relativistic "benefit" issue, away from right and wrong in a more abstract moral sense, you open the Pandora's box to Brave New World, my friend.

Let's talk right and wrong here.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:32 - ID#287186)
Mozel, et al {and me too} - post your political/economic stuff over in one of the below NGs - with the crossposting available there we can share our words of wisdom with others who may need it more than we. And besides - drawing fire over there is more fun.
P.S. the asterisks are not part of the NG name - just a rating by me.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:32 - ID#153102)
The Bridge to the Twenty-First Century will be made of steel and steal.

Steel for the cages to hold Patriots. Steal to batten the oppressors and their BENEFICIARIES.

There will be Emergency in 2000. There will be NO ELECTION in 2000.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 13:34 - ID#384350)
missinglink, bank runs
I see your point. However, there must be some people who have savings accounts, Money market accounts, and Above All, there will be people who will want to have 1-3 months cash on hand. This might mean that people will cash in stocks, bonds, mutuals so that they will have cash on hand. Then they'll pull it out of the banks, then they'll buy gold. Better not be late to the game if it develops as so.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:39 - ID#153102)
Gold coin is Freedom. How can you separate Gold from Politics ? What is more important to know: which way the market will go or that the market will not be open at all ?

Gold and silver coin are in the Constitution, but they are not among us. The government seized the gold. They have robbed us of our heritage. The Constitution is dead for all but the usurious elite who feed upon its rotten carcass and spew paper.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 13:40 - ID#384350)
mozel, I would like to echo Cherokee's thoughts. Many of us slowly absorb what you are saying, even if we don't immediately respond to an issue, like not owning FRN's. However, we may be formulating ways to become less dependant upon FRN's or other Fiat. We thus, form the Big Picture together, No?

John Disney__A
(Sat May 30 1998 13:49 - ID#24135)
Hay wait a minute ..
...Gianni ..
You visited Andorra. I LIVED there
4 years. I still have a large house
Property taxes are a few thousand
PESETAS not dollars... I pay no more than
200 dollars a year. My house there
is rented out. I KNOW what Im paying.
Yes to RETAIN resident status you have
to stay there at least 6 months a year
.. so what would you expect ..
The french customs people are rats.
They were 10 years ago .. They are now.
If you want to transfer money over the
border, you do it by bank transfer ..
like anyplace else else.
Do you Normally carry 5000 pounds
cash across ANY borders .. GEE.??
Andorra was in debt as is every
country in the world. I think much
less than most. Income tax will not
come in Andorra because the Andorrans
hate their gomment and wont pay it.
I lived there 4 years with no problems
and may go back in the event of a nasty
2yk as the place is more isolated than
the Irish countryside by a mile. I
crossed the spanish and french borders
with ease.
I think your conclusions are not up
to your normal high standard.
The problems are 1. its harder to
get residence than it used to be ( you
have to make a loan of something like
10000 dollars that is returnable
when you leave )
2. You miss speaking English.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 13:51 - ID#384350)
Mozel, US Elections
.....are in November, 1999. If USG does grab power before that, I expect Euroland, Oz, NZ to join in the Coup de Monde.

Have Gold, will travel.

(Sat May 30 1998 13:51 - ID#153102)
I stand on the shoulders of giants. I pass a torch I did not light, but only tend. I know because someone cared to lead me forth. Like you. I see because I have been shown. And I show as I am able. But, now I issue warnings that good men may preserve themselves for better days. I am in the company of scouts.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 13:53 - ID#384350)
Mozel, US Elections
sorry it is 2000

(Sat May 30 1998 13:53 - ID#286279)
from lurker Bar

You fellows are usually on too late for me so am posting message now. [@KB&G]

Last week on the Kitco board there was a message about the Fatima Prophesy from located in Aurora, CO.

I checked with the Catholic Diocese of Denver and was advised the message is not authentic nor accurate. "Sister Lucia herself commented on this in a rare interview with Spanish media on March 1, saying that the true message has never been made

? I was further advised I should ignore this message. "If the Holy Father thought it would be good for us to know the contents of the secret, he would tell us himself. Since I do not post but only lurk, I would appreciate it if this could be relayed to the board. Thanks Bar

(Sat May 30 1998 14:00 - ID#287186)
You will find a new discussion thread header
At the bottom of alt.politics.libertarian.
Let's take our socio/economic/politico/gun-toting arguments there!

(Sat May 30 1998 14:04 - ID#153102)
@Squirrel ?? Go chatter from another branch if you like.

John Disney__A
(Sat May 30 1998 14:04 - ID#24135)
Smoking Guns..
For ej
You're back again with the gun thing. You talk about
"regulations". I dont believe the Gomment should have
anything to do with "regulations". I believe in LAWS
that are not rewritten which a majority vote one way
or another changes a gomment. IF you want people NOT
to be MURDERED then laws should impose a HEAVY penalty
for murder .. like DEATH in all cases regardless of age
if 1st degree. Outlawing guns is just liberal meddling..
ie trying to create the impression that they are
caring responsible people while actually stuffing things
up because they cant think clearly.
I agree completely on Laws against DRUGS. There should
not be any. Drugs should be available to any idiot
stupid enough to take them. However selling drugs to
children should be punishable by death in all cases.
I think Im completely consistant .. Laws should
protect individual life and property .. otherwise dont
have them. Laws to protect "society" like anti smoking
are nazi or socialist or "liberal" laws. The terms
can be used interchangably.
PS I quit smoking 6 years ago. It was my choice.
Im about to start again and become a SMOKING TERRORIST.
.. walk by a restaurant .. open the door .. blow
smoke in .. then run away .. the UNISMOKER strikes

(Sat May 30 1998 14:04 - ID#207145)
Oil drillers,
Oil ready to improve, so , let it be said that i AM POSITIVE on drillers. They may go a little farther down due to next week's down-draft tho so i am in limbo. Dont know if i'm early by a little. Can anybody give me a helping hand on timing?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:07 - ID#373284)
Mike Sheller
for me, you are FRIEND...a privilege,

(Sat May 30 1998 14:08 - ID#153102)
Wait for the spike downward. ( Which may be until your next life ) .

(Sat May 30 1998 14:09 - ID#242325)
oil service stocks
Blooper: One problen with the oil drilling stocks is that they have already had huge moves these last few years. Unlike gold stocks they are not exactly on the bargain counter despite recent weakness. If the market goes down hard, they will get smashed unless oil prices start surging.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:12 - ID#287186)
When I bought GOLD last year I screwed up!
After figuring out how many people there were in the world.
And figuring that if a quarter of them eventually reached a standard of living that permitted them to own an ounce of GOLD
And comparing that number to the TOTAL GOLD AVAILABLE
And a WAG ( WildAssGuess ) on the total of M1 in the World.
And hoping we would eventually get back to GOLD for money.
My calculator spit out a FIVE DIGIT US$ VALUE FOR GOLD.
If I could hang on to the stuff long enough.
I have realized the error of my ways.
The powers controlling GOLD will drive it out of money altogether.
It will have no use except in jewelry and electronics.
GOLD will be driven down to a two digit US$
SILVER will be driven down to $2 or $3 for a ratio of 50:1 at best/worst.
So I sold my Gold - except for some numismatics.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:12 - ID#207145)
Quion97, Naples is great area.
Your timing would be great, giving real estate timenough to get right.
Am about to sink sizable investment into energy, oil drilling. It's as safe a bet as can be made here with oil on the ropes, and summer , winter ahead.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:19 - ID#411112)
Goldwater said.....Extemism in defence of Liberty is no vice....what is not understood by this

statement....EJ..what freedom will you give up for the collective good,free speech,........Sqirrel,if what happens in Washington had no effect on what happens on Wall St...I could agree with does not so I disagree with you on this one.....John D the dressing is in the fridge and I can't wait

(Sat May 30 1998 14:19 - ID#207145)
Old Gold,
This is true, but oil prices are about to rise, as it's summer driving season. Cold winter possible. There are only so many holes in the ground. it takes 3.5 years to nuild a rig. Oil drillers are about to climb even higher. You got to have what they drill for. Hide and watch em. If i'm wrong i'll look you up before Christmas and apologize. They haven't had day rates cut yet, as a matter of fact day rates have increased with 14$ oil. It's not too much to ask for 17$ oil is it?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:20 - ID#242325)
Swiss gold sales likley to be approved but will occur gradually over a long period according to the WGC


29 May


Swiss Gold Policy

The Swiss Finance Ministry issued a press release on 27 May 1998 on "a new constitutional
foundation for the Swiss National Bank." This confirms that Swiss government policy is to sever the
official link between gold and the Swiss franc. The Public Policy Center of the Council has been
studying these issues using an outside consultant. The following is a note of his main conclusions
based on extensive interviews with principal Swiss monetary and financial officials conducted over the
last 2 weeks. An unofficial translation of the press release issued by the Finance Ministry is attached.

Key Results

Timetable, process and structure for sale of excess gold have now snapped into focus.

not likely to start before 2000
will sell over 10 - 20 year period, although Swiss Finance Minister Villiger indicated a more
agressive schedule of 5 - 7 years.
amounts of 50 - 100 tonnes per year
will sell less into weak markets, but more into strong markets
total confirmed at approximately 1400 tonnes
excess gold will be shifted from Swiss National Bank ( SNB ) to special fund ( s )

(Sat May 30 1998 14:28 - ID#269409)
@ Pegasus Gold...shareholders to get Zip
Glad I sold the shares at 60 cents. They dropped to 18 cents yesterday!

Friday May 29, 8:01 am Eastern Time

Company Press Release

SOURCE: Pegasus Gold Inc.

Pegasus Gold Update

SPOKANE, Wash., May 29 /PRNewswire/ -- Pegasus Gold Inc. ( Montreal: PGU; OTC Bulletin-Board: PSGQF ) reports that its
efforts to file a Plan of Reorganization by July 31, 1998 are on track pending the continued cooperation of all parties.

On May 13, 1998, the Bankruptcy Court granted the Company an extension to the exclusive period to file a Plan of Reorganization
to July 31, 1998. The exclusive period to solicit acceptances of such plan has been extended to September 30, 1998.

Based on evaluations of the Company's assets at current gold prices, the preliminary work on the Plan of Reorganization indicates
that common shareholders of Pegasus Gold Inc. are unlikely to receive any value.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:28 - ID#287186)
So I sold my GOLD last year.
And bought cases upon cases of canned milk, beans, fruit, vegetables, tuna, soup, chili. And cases upon cases of macaroni 'n cheese, spaghetti, macaroni, instant rice, instant potatoes, oatmeal cereal, crackers, iodized 'n regular salt, and cases of bottles of ketchup, spaghetti sauce, pancake syrup, salad dressing, barbeque sauce, and many bags of flour and sugar and a two hundred pounds of honey.
And I spent quite a few bucks at the last gun show and spent the last of the Gold proceeds on lots of ammo of many different calibers & loads.
AFTER Y2K GOLD WON'T BUY CRAP {oh yes, I bought 192 rolls of TP - 2 cases} But a box of 30-06 shells that cost me $10 in 1997 may fetch $20 or more in 2000. And the rifle that cost me $400 will bring $1000 in 2000. The TP that cost 50 cents a roll will go for a dollar or two.
If I double my money in 3 years that is a 26% annual growth!
If things really get bad the TP may be worth $5/roll in 1998 dollars.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:28 - ID#207145)
Old Gold
No more selling. Seasonality is going , sentiment is terrible ( good sign ) .
What are you gonna buy right now but energy?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:29 - ID#288369)
@the drillers............
Many mid to large oil exploration/production companies are "breaking" contracts with drillers and slashing their drilling budgets. These drilling contracts are year-long "commitments" that keep rigs utilized and explorers in equipment. Over the past two months, we have watched the rig utilization rate drop dranitically...a lot less wells being staked....and contracts being "torn up"... Driller's earnings will take a dive for the next couple of periods....caution advised.

Crude goin' up...I too am buying crude futures.....cheaper than producing it in the U.S..........$18. futures @ three years out. ( CHEAP )

(Sat May 30 1998 14:30 - ID#207145)
You have to know when the energy cycle is positive. Right now it is.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 14:30 - ID#384350)
Disney, Andorra
JDisney, I apologize, I do not mean to misinform. I trust since you have a house & lived there, you would know how much tax one would have to pay to live, or have a house there. ( I think I was thinking of the costs of full residency, including that bond, health insurance, etc )
You're right, the country was a hideaway for smugglers, and these people are libertarian, and not likely to ever pay an income tax, new taxes would likely be an introduction or rise in VAT, or property tax.

I believe that the $10,000 bond for residence is returned when you give up residency. If you wish to stay the bond has to be renewed.

Sure, the Andorrans are libertarian, but who is to say that Euroland might not just appropriate Andorra, like manifest destiny. Did you know Monaco will be appropriated by Euroland ( France ) if Prince Albert has no son.

Also, technically that 5000 could include the car you're driving in. Personally, If someone is thinking of leaving a hostile country with Gold, he might just find it will be taxed or confiscated at the border. I don't want to be dependent upon the wire transfer system.

As to Ireland, it is becoming more and more under the thumb of Big Brother. It's a tax haven for the moment ( for non-Irish ) , but with the Euro, and tax harmonisation among states, I can't see it staying that way for much longer. The Revenue Commission is starting to attack the cash-based, black economy here which is huge. They want to force people to pay those high taxes.

High taxes are only necessary when there is usury.

If you don't mind me asking, Where is your house in Andorra?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:35 - ID#207145)
Whose talking about land drillers. Day rates are up. Profits are up. Have you bothered to loof at Quarterly Profits. CDG up 124% for instance. . Noone asked you to invest.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:39 - ID#207145)
All energy depends on poo.
If poo goes up you will make. If it doesn't you will lose.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:40 - ID#288369)
I am fully invested in oil.........own 200 wells and a good chunk of Patterson Drilling which I've ridden down from 30 to 11. US Rig count below 880 today and falling. You may have a driller that works good for you...stick with it pard....good luck.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:41 - ID#207145)
If oil goes down, you can kiss your gold

(Sat May 30 1998 14:42 - ID#269409)
@ RL/Farfel
Though I like Farfel just fine, I feel RJ is getting a really raw deal in this outpouring of wrath directed his way re Farfel's departure. RJ, is, has been, and likely always will be a "straight shooter". He has contributed immutable logic, reason, and expertise to the debate. He indeed tried to reach out to Farfel on many ocassions, and in fact took the INITIATIVE to patch up any personal which Farfel gace sarcastic, and condescending reply.

Which is more valuable here? Expert, firsthand, trader analysis of the market, or cheerleading ad nauseum?

Personally, I'd opt for the expertise though I'm sure Farfel's comments should be welcomed as well as all others who wish to contribute.

Market prediction of the week...Farfel will be back......

(Sat May 30 1998 14:43 - ID#207145)
Where were you for the 16 year bear oil market. I don't care if you own Texas. This is a bull we're in.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:44 - ID#242325)
Recent market action illustrates that global economic and financial contradictions are escalating out of control. US markets staying in the ozone layer by soaking up flight capital from Asia and Europe as domestic purchases of mutual funds start to wane. Euro coming along to challenge the greenback. This is very different than 1995 and 1996 when most markets were moving up in tandem.

The mad flight to the greenback is, of course, bearish for gold short-term. But bullish longer-term methinks as international economic and financial tensions move rapidly towards critical mass.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:47 - ID#207145)
STUDIO.The dropping rig count
is the most bullish news possible for investors in oil drilling companies. Did you inherit those rigs?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:47 - ID#207145)
STUDIO.The dropping rig count
is the most bullish news possible for investors in oil drilling companies. Did you inherit those rigs?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:50 - ID#153102)
What are some good base metal coins that could become the hiding place for worthy coins ?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:52 - ID#288369)
For the last 14 years we have been pumping oil every day and selling oil every day. We have survived and I thank my God ( and so does all our employees ) . Some of those years were mighty fine times, especially looking back now. We pray for better oil pricing every day....but, right now, we'll just wait to will many of my counterparts.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:52 - ID#242325)
gold and oil equities
Perhaps some day the gold miners will get some smarts and the industry will consolidate in a big way, cut costs to the bone, and shut down marginal operations. Then perhaps some of these equities will be able to move sharply higher even if AU does nothing. Just like the oil stocks did over the past few years in the face of flat to declining POO quotations.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:53 - ID#373284)
The Emperor of the Island that is Long salutes you, A HUGE gulp to yaTom Horn is alive and well, we are drinking from a properly aged barrel

(Sat May 30 1998 14:53 - ID#207145)
STUDIO, i appreciate the fact that you are 100%.
The inheritance remark was out of line. I guess i was saying oil is a good investment here. Patterson can't halp Asia. It went up 7 fold before it came down. What a company. If youre not to mad, please give me some news or your opinion on PTEN.

(Sat May 30 1998 14:53 - ID#269409)
@ Loral / Technology transfer to China
As I was scrolling back through past few days messages, someone had asked about the Loral response to the supposed "Technology transfer" to China. Below is the URL. Please note that I know these facts to be true...I was there... there was no "Technology tranfer" that involved any improvements to China's "Nuclear missile targeting and guidance capability".

We don't even manufacture. design, own, or have any knowledge or expertise in the area of rocket/missile design, manufacturing, guidance, etc. So how we could transfer this technology to China? you tell me.

I would also note that Prez. Bush granted us waivers on China launches for 9 satellites prior to Clinton administration eh? And finally I would note that the satellite that crashed due to rocket failure was for a foreign customer ( Intelsat ) , and contained NO classified or secret technology, such as the encryption or "balck box" kinda stuff alluded to here by JTF and others. FYI, here's the URL for Loral ( Space Sysytems ) fact page on this matter.

P.S. Clinton is a sleaze, but in this matter, there's heat being generated where no fire exists....

(Sat May 30 1998 14:55 - ID#207145)
Might pay to hold off on PTEN, then?

(Sat May 30 1998 14:57 - ID#335190)
FWIW @ Canada & N.W.O.-O'Driscoll dead-UofT Friends, considered him "MILIEU"
New World Order "CORRUPTION IN CANADA" By Professor Robert O'Driscoll & Elizabeth Elliott. ( 1994 )

Professor Robert O'Driscoll, whose contributions to Celtic studies were widely respected, died of a heart attack in Ireland Feb. 29. ( 1996 )

Professor Fred Flahiff, a colleague at the college, said in an interview that for many years the college "was basking in what Bob was doing."
Later, however, O'Driscoll suffered from mental and behavioural problems that eventually ended his teaching career. O'Driscoll was suspended from teaching amid controversy over his activities and behaviour. ( Corruption In Canada, book )

"Everything he became engaged with, he became engaged with obsessively," Flahiff said. "I'm not sure it was an illness, or that he simply ended up in a milieu which was not the milieu he should have been in."

However, it is "very important" to judge O'Driscoll's accomplishments and failings with compassion. "His achievements were real."

Sooooooo, Mozel/and others, be careful. Powerful forces, are at work. The issues of freedom and rights must be constantly under attack, "the powers to be" will not allow open and free opinion/view/expression.

Many believe freedom is available to ALL. Hell to obtain freedom, one must "FIGHT" "Be On Guard". Most Citizen's expect "OTHERS" to gain such rights for "them".

While the "FIGHT" is on going, those involved are considered by "ALL" to be in a state of "MILIEU" ( **more at MID. STALL ) ( mental breakdown ) ( illness ) . Such has been stated about O'Driscoll.

O'Driscoll was a man of history, and at an old age, after much study, concluded the politics ( more at POLICE ) ( characterized by shrewdness in managing contriving, or dealing ) in Canada, and those of the USofA, were in conflict with the standards of freedom and rights, as we have been brain washed to consider exist. O'Driscoll provided material views/opinions/facts to suggest rights and freedoms do not in fact exist.

O'Driscolls' book will scare the hell out of those that believe freedom and rights are being fought for by the "other" guy. And this "other" guy is looking out for "their" rights.

I do not agree that New World Order is in existence, My view is simple. Business taking care of business. Trickster's ( a dishonest person [CORPORATION] who defrauds others by trickery ) ( skilled in the use of tricks and illusion )

Gold investment is an act of the very few citizen's, that are aware that the Federal Reserve Corporation, is using "ILLUSION - TRICKS". And yes, those few citizen's are putting forth their wealth, to obtain value for their work/labour.

Will the Corporation win the pledge ( BET ) , or will the citizen and his standards of value, win the pledge ( bet ) . To date, Corporations are the winners.

The pledge ( bet ) continues eh! Mushrooms-R-Us

Be Quiet....Consume....And Die. In Memoriam of O'Driscoll..Take Care

(Sat May 30 1998 14:59 - ID#317193)
Lighten up. You are valued, too. What did the Tin man seek from the Wizard of OZ? A HEART, my friend, a HEART. Show yours once in a while. You probably are human, arent you? Take down the shield.


(Sat May 30 1998 15:00 - ID#269409)
@ Mozel...Base metal coins
Hmmm, I'm a bit confused on the coin question. Do you mean which coins may become numismatically valuable in the future, but have a small premium now? Personally, I'd recommend 90% Silver U.S. coins of the 1940's and previous vintage. Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty Halves, especially. You can buy these for barely over silver melt value in many cases, yet I believe the potential for future Numismatic premiums to rise substantially is definitely there. Plus it's a cheap and convenient way to own fully "liquid" silver.

The circulated Morgan dollars are a pretty good buy also. ( 1878-1921 ) Very popular and the market is just starting to take off.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:01 - ID#207145)
if the price of oil goes down, oil investors lose money.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:03 - ID#269409)
Tyoung re RJ
I shan't keep coming to the defense of a guy who can handle his own defense far better than I can, but let me just mention that you havn't been here on the forum long enough, if you don't see RJ displaying "heart". His postrs have displayed this on many many ocassions.

Sometimes truth cuts hard, but truth that offends, is better than lies done with grace, in spite of the opinions to the contrary being displayed here. RJ speaks the truth as he knows and percives it, with no pretentious BS attached.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 15:04 - ID#384350)
Swiss Cheese Banking
The latest issue of the Monitor says that Swiss banking is succumbing to US pressure. It says a new law, passed Apr 1, obliges banks to not only report suspicious transactions made by clients, but also to freeze assets! The provisions of the law also apply to non-bank institutions, lawyers and insurers.

Geneva prosecutor, Bernard Bertossa, when asked at what point banks should become "suspicious" of customers, his response was quite worrying. He said, "If you need to go offshore for a financial operation, that means you have something to hide."

(Sat May 30 1998 15:06 - ID#207145)
STUDIO Last winter was a bear for oil guys
Sentiment i awful, Asia is back, But Nina is leaving, And Joe sixpack is packing to leave. I believe oil is o.k. Not great. It wont stay at 14.00

(Sat May 30 1998 15:07 - ID#288369)
I honestly can't predict what Pten will of my brother-in-laws, E. Peter Hoffman, jr., is very involved with this company...a few years back he "joined" their group ( in an affililation sense ) stayed months in Houston working with them, assisting on their acquisitions, and became extremely knowledgeable of their operations, especially in the permian.

He then traveled around the world telling their story and hawked the stock very effectively....he is a force to be reckoned with believe me. He has now moved on to some gas drillers in Alberta and mining in Columbia...this is what he sees as new growth areas...he may get back to Pten...but not right now. I listen to him closely on driller issues.

Did not inherit the oil biz....built it with my hands, the hands of a great partner and other great helpers...

(Sat May 30 1998 15:08 - ID#43349)
One of the biggest problems the west has had in past
( and recent ) years is oil. Western civilization runs
on oil. It could not survive without it. In the last
hundred years the populations have moved from the farms
into the cities and the cities can not survive without
the means to transport food an supplies from their points
of production.

It was forseen that since the bulk of the oil was being
shipped from the middle east, in a few short years all
of western civilization would be owned by a few dessert
chieftans unless some way could be found to recycle oil

The answer was unrest in the middle east. It has always
been in the west's best interest that there be unrest
between competeing factions in the mid east, because that
would increase demand for high price wastern armaments.
Jets, bombs, tanks, and missles are expensive.

Of course the west only sold WW II stuff and kept the
most modern stuff for itself and a few of it's most
trusted closest allies. Why do you think Hussein was
only trimmed back but not eliminated entirely when
he got a little too big for his britches?

Today, there is much talk of accord and peace in the
mid east, but accord is only workable as long as oil
prices stay very low, indeed must stay low as long as
there is accord.

I wouldn't look for oil prices to raise very fast. For
one thing, demand and the asian thing will have to
recover substantially first and that's gonna take a year
or two or three. For another thing some sort of unrest
would have to be stirred up to increase arms sales in
the east and renewd arms production in the west first,
and frankly, the west has even more serious problems
on it's hands ar the moment....

(Sat May 30 1998 15:08 - ID#190411)
@ mozel
Would you be so kind as to contact me at

(Sat May 30 1998 15:08 - ID#153102)
Silver is a base metal ? Did you not want to answer the question or could you really not understand it ?

(Sat May 30 1998 15:14 - ID#207145)
One thig I know about oil is
that if you don't have, youre not going anywhere. You can be as passe as you like, but you are grounded without it. Most of which comes from the Middie East. One of these days the Feces will hit the Rotating Oscillator.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:16 - ID#153102)
Those who say there cannot be a New World Order overlook the obvious fact that all fiat currency governments are united in tyranny on the need to tax to pay the usurer and on the need to keep up the illusion that printed paper is money.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:16 - ID#317193)
I suggest that is a matter of opinion. Yours does not comport with mine. SO.....Lets lie that which is.


(Sat May 30 1998 15:19 - ID#411112)
LGB..I beg to differ with you...90% junk silver will never hold numismatic value...would be like

saying a cancelled stamp would become a would be correct if you were talking about uncirculated dimes,quaters and half dollars...but you pay for that....I still think the best deal is $1.00 American Silver Eagles currently run $130.00 for 20,

(Sat May 30 1998 15:19 - ID#207145)
PTEN was by far the strongest driller last year. At 11.25 would you by shares?

(Sat May 30 1998 15:19 - ID#411112)
LGB..I beg to differ with you...90% junk silver will never hold numismatic value...would be like

saying a cancelled stamp would become a would be correct if you were talking about uncirculated dimes,quaters and half dollars...but you pay for that....I still think the best deal is $1.00 American Silver Eagles currently run $130.00 for 20,

(Sat May 30 1998 15:25 - ID#411112)
The faceless NWO can be seen in the Multilaterial Agreement on Investments....its Transnational

Corporations,some may say they already contol Washington and they do,however they are getting power by stealth,they have one final hurdel the Constitution...MAI gives them that,complete power......I have seen the enemy and he is us

(Sat May 30 1998 15:25 - ID#207145)
Soon the American people will demand a defense system. This will happen because a missle will be launched by mistake somewhere on this orb. We live in far more dangerous times than we know. The good news
is that most all of us will be just fine.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:27 - ID#288369)
I have friends who have sold the stock...that's all I will say...but please don't rely on my opinion or theirs, for that matter.... I don't see it much below $10 and it sure will do nicely IF oil goes up.

Worry a bit about their acquisition debt, and I'm not up to speed on this matter in a current sense. They made a bunch of acquisitions obviously and paid pretty rich prices.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:28 - ID#317193)
You are a good man. I do not engage you in discourse very often but I do assimilate your THOUGHTS. All JDs are not as you suggest. Some fight the good fight.


(Sat May 30 1998 15:28 - ID#207145)
At 11.25 ( it gained .25 ) , don't you think it would worth some spec. money?

(Sat May 30 1998 15:30 - ID#288369)
It's not any wilder than Rangy ( my habit ) ....have at 'er, pard. roll 'em.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 15:33 - ID#384350)
Swiss Banking Article the Monitor, also cites Geneva prosecutor as saying, "We rarely put bankers in jail, but if we discover that the suspicion is well-founded and nevertheless you ( the banker ) participated in the operation, you will be punishable under the penal code which envisages imprisonment."

This where tax evasion has always been a civil rather than a criminal matter and where, in the past, bankers only risked prosecution if they revealed confidential client information.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:34 - ID#153102)
Soon the American people will beg their masters for a warm bed and a hot meal. Demanding is disobedience.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:34 - ID#207145)
PTEN like others, couldn't have gone up seven times without many acquisitions, as you say. I think these companies are kind of alike, again as you said, if oil goes up theyre o.k. Oil has been out of season since Jan. seasonality is about to kick in. NINO is hopefully leaving. Yes many people, including me, sold drillers.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:38 - ID#288369)
I humbly embrace your kind welcome, sir. And my single wish is that your day will be chock full of laughter. And as I open this window and gaze to the East, I hope to hear a great and jubilant cheer eminating from the Island that is Long. Yeeeeee Haaaaaa! studio.soulmate

(Sat May 30 1998 15:42 - ID#207145)
Now you know Rangy isnt seasonal now Studio. I was hoping you would say 10 couldnt be too dangerous.These stocks are dirt cheap, as they were a little rich at 30, but then we krew that. GO RANGY

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 15:46 - ID#384350)
robnoel, mozel, MAI
MAIGALOMANIA, link to info on Multilateral Agreement on Investment

Mozel, And the usurer is never satisfied.

Robnoel, I'm still looking for that leprechaun. I heard there used to be one in the park down the road. True story, some little skinny guy used to dress up like a leprechaun and hang out in the trees in the Nat'l Park. He would get money from the tourists when they passed by in horse-drawn carriages.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:46 - ID#207145)
MOZEL, Lets be disobediant
Demanding taxes is disobediant. Killing taxpayers is disobediant. ATF, FBIetc.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:48 - ID#153102)
ALL JD's ( lawyers and attorneys ) are guilty of constructive fraud. They are all guilty by participation. NONE OF THEM advise their "clients" ( A.K.A. suckers ) of what an attorney cannot do that must be done by a man himself. NONE OF THEM have told the people. They are what 6Pak calls Tricksters. And they are all battening themselves as officers of the court. The Bar is a Monopoly in Restraint of Liberty and Justice. The Bar is a Monopoly of Government. Attorneys always were and always will be a plague preying upon Freemen.

Of these things I know. Firsthand. Close up and personal.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:51 - ID#347172)
Crude oil futures are nice but what do we small producers do when expenses exceed revenues as they do now. My average well produces 4 bbl oil per day and 50 bbl of water. The cost of water disposal averages 25 cents per bbl., electicity averages $250 per month, maintenance and chemicals average $300. With average royalty burden of 25%, that leaves a grand total of approx. $50 before taxes. If I had to hire a person to take care of them on a daily basis, I would be in the hole, also if a person is trying to make bank note payments, someone has to go without. It makes no sense, that the US oil producers, as a whole, become the whipping post for a continued "good" economy report for the evening news when in fact the economy expands faster when prices are higher. The major companies with their downline structure make profits on refining and marketing sales when prices are low or high. Tell me that each of us were not better off when oil prices were in the mid $20 range.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:51 - ID#207145)
POLY TICS..............blood suckers concentraited in a small area.
True meaning. Self serving , blood sucking. Other than that , there o.k. !!!!!

(Sat May 30 1998 15:52 - ID#190411)
The siver eagles are priced well above the medallion coin market.

One oz. silver rounds are priced at spot + 5 cents, from my dealer.-delivered/ he must want to be rid of them.

The scrap silver coins will never appreciate more than a tiny percentage near scrap. +or-. One has to find a way to give them added value.

I'm working on that.

My aren't there some easily bruised egos here? Poor RJ and the unpronouncable one, have headed to the pit mines to duel to the first broken fingernail.

I don't quite get the battle of the scorpions. They might have looked over a shoulder to see that they had both made unsupportable short term calls.

We must be able to argue here. If everyone behaved as these two did in their snit, then what? :I'm looooosing interest in the ad hominem stuff.

(Sat May 30 1998 15:55 - ID#153102)

(Sat May 30 1998 15:58 - ID#411112)
Gianni Dioro..I know that guy,usd to hang out on ST. STephens Green....I thought he was a bookie :).

grat post,most pay no attention

(Sat May 30 1998 16:05 - ID#411112)
ERLE,the problem I have with generic rounds is I pay .50c back of spot for them on Eagles I pay

$1.20 over spot to my clients.....what you have is legal tender,pure silver,in uncirculated condition...a 1998 W proof Eagel now fetches close to $500.00 generic rounds could never do this,you may save a few bucks on the purchase,you will get handed your head on a sell.....check out my web page I have a few specials even better

(Sat May 30 1998 16:10 - ID#190411)
Please, don't be bitter, it doesn't suit you.
Please contact me by e-mail .

(Sat May 30 1998 16:10 - ID#288369)
May you be blessed with higher oil prices soon! You obviously know your profession and its economic realities...the lifting costs you just quoted are exactly representative of domestic oil production ( not that I need to remind you! ) ...but, it is surely beneficial to hear from a poster who rides beside Reality each day.

I am afraid we ( the producing faction ) are relagated to be economic outcasts for some time to come. I raise a toast to you and your dogged determination. Salud!

(Sat May 30 1998 16:11 - ID#207145)
You spread your share of silly nonse too, dude.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat May 30 1998 16:13 - ID#384350)
robnoel, leprechauns and the MAI
The NGO plot to kill the MAI has been termed "the Dracula strategy": simply, bringing public attention to a treaty that cannot stand up against the light.

So now it's on the backburner, thanks to trade unions, but I think Klinton said that they'll try to bring it back in 6 months time.

As to that leprechaun, I live about 200 miles from St Stephen's Green, so it was probably a different leprechaun. The guards finally told the one here to stop pestering the tourists, but many tourists fell for it, and actually believed he was a leprechaun. If I catch him, I'll take his pot o' gold.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:17 - ID#153102)
Better bitter than blinkered.
But, I'm not bitter. However, I do know they are playing with real bullets that my labor payed for.
I've enjoyed your posts. You are a more able man than I.
Maybe I'll ask someone to write.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:17 - ID#242325)
Blooper Oil prices are lower now than when the bull market began in 1995, but oil equities are much higher. But both gold prices and gold equities dropped sharply over the sanme period.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:19 - ID#347172)
Studio R.
It is better to give than to receive but in this case I would love to receive higher oil prices or win the lottery, whichever comes first.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:19 - ID#190411)
Your guru, Mr. Bob Brinker, has some less than flattering comments about the continued upward spiral of the equities, now stalled.
I've never heard him being quite so cautious.

This gentleman has been the radio voice of the stockmarket.
As you said, betting on his analysis in the past fifteen years was the way to go.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:21 - ID#373403)
I still think that the best spread is to buy pure casting grain at $3/oz over spot and selling at the refinery for 1% plus $75.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:21 - ID#43349)
We were indeed much better off when prices more
accurately reflected the cost of production
thsn we are in this distorted state of affairs
that has come about.

Like in the 20's, people sing and dance and pay
little heed to what this way comes. They are
either unaware of or ignore the hardships of
others that their "great economy" is based upon

The shame of it all is that it needn't had has
to have been this way.

ted butler__A
(Sat May 30 1998 16:23 - ID#317184)
Martin Armstrong

jefsilver7 - thanks for posting Martin Armstrong's reply to me. I e-mailed him back this am. I asked vronsky to post a copy here, as I'm having trouble posting directly. He did at 9:16 this am. Would appreciate you posting any new responses from Martin. Thanks

(Sat May 30 1998 16:25 - ID#254112)
Bought a couple of silver calls yesterday
December call, strike = 625; price = 140 ( i.e., $700/option ) .
Right or wrong, I wanted to share this with you.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:26 - ID#411112)
themissinglink...if you walked into my office to sell me that I would want to sell WHAT?


(Sat May 30 1998 16:26 - ID#288369)
call the spelling police! I'm a fleeing felon...........
relagate=relegate and what is "eminating"? where'd I get that word? what does it mean to anybody? studio.sophomore-speller ohmy.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:27 - ID#242325)
Getting back to POG, one of the big problems these last few years has been uncertainty over future CB sales and leases. Once the Europeans clarify their intentions in this regard -- whatever they might be -- the gold market can only benefit. Markets hate nothing so much as uncertainty.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:28 - ID#207145)
Most Large drilling rigs take 3.5 ( MAX ) years to complete. There aren,t many rigs in existence. Its a sellers market. Offshore deep water rigs are irreplacable in the short run. Drillers are what i,m talking about, whatever. Its a good investment for me, you can do as you please.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:30 - ID#190411)
@ mozel
I do not know what "..a more able..." refers to.

I was just trying to contact you for an invite to "boys' weekend", where we drink beer, go out to eat some fattening food, denigrate women, and talk about ranging topics "till 3:AM .

Bring a motorcycle, 'cause it's more fun.

Then we go back to our wives, and tell them how bad it was this year.

Central Wisconsin Follies.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:35 - ID#341189)
Does someone know something, or is this just foolishness?
Over 6000 ABX calls bought Fri. Bearish or bullish?

(Sat May 30 1998 16:36 - ID#347172)
The last Oil and Gas Journal dated May 25, 1998 on page 5 has an advertisement for Halliburton. Just above the picture of the offshore rig, it boasts of saving 2 days of rig time valued at $280,000. Most land rigs with depth limits of less than 6,000 ft. could be bought for that price. A contractor that I know personally, said he was ecstatic to have 4 of his 9 rigs running persently.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:42 - ID#342315)
Gianni and Robnoel re Mai
I read into some of the URL re MAI in your post. Damn! if this thing goes thru , they got you by the gonnies. It looks like The EU is fighting for public disclosure. Is there any boby over here doing the same?? Thanx Charlie

(Sat May 30 1998 16:44 - ID#45173)
Gollum: thx for the Big Picture view
makes a lot of sense.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:50 - ID#27341)
Goog morning all ,from OZ.
Gollum,if you were a betting person, ( in the US ) would you back double digit inflation, or d-deflation ?. Thanks in advance.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:53 - ID#207145)
I had no idea that there were people posting who were knowledgable about oil. I guess, if i did, I woulnn't have shot my mouth off so quickly. Morex, the drillers have to be traded, due to season. of oil. Now is the time to buy energy, as you know. When I mention Oil, everyone trys to shoot it down. I've made my mind up. Great defensive play also. Ialso like utilities, small stocks, and bonds.

(Sat May 30 1998 16:54 - ID#45173)
mozel & robnoel: I was not trying to re-open the gun thing again
only use it as an example of how we can have a heated debate here without resorting to name-calling. No point in going over our gun positions again, is there? I know your position and you know mine. Is there more light to be shed on this? Plus, I feel not everyone on this site cares and at this point we need to take it someplace else if we continue. It is off topic.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:02 - ID#27341)
Thats a big GOOD not goog, i,ll learn to put my glassers on yet.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:02 - ID#411112)
Chas, not sure who posted it but there was a demonstration against MAI last week in Canada it was

not pretty,America is very slow on this one just like NAFTA,the reason Clinton is pushing for fast track authority is so he can add this,not one congreesman reads anything in trade deals,its an up or down vote usually what happens is the Pres trys to bribe the no votes with your money...what a concept....a good artical last year in Thewinds says it all The TRADE AGREEMENT FROM HELL

(Sat May 30 1998 17:06 - ID#411112)
EJ has raised the white flag,we accept....I like the current Topic MAI...a lot know nothing,it is

something both left and right agree on,this does not happen to often,and if left alone will effect us all,in a real nasty way

(Sat May 30 1998 17:07 - ID#252150)
Gag me with a spoon! Woke up this morning in a good mood & after 2 arduous
days of golf, was just going to relax & catch up on some newsletters. The sun was shining on the St of Juan de Fuca & the snow capped Olympic Mtns
peeked over a deck of alto cumulus . I sat down with coffee, opened my Friedberg's letter & was confronted with this:

"Slowly, almost inexorably, the gale forces of a terrifying global contraction ( so we sidestep the unmentionable "D" word ) advance upon us. As in a Greek play, the various actors remain absorbed in their own circumstances, hopefull in their predicament, but totally unaware that the die of the Gods has already been cast. Tragically, they cannot sense their own demise. And just as tragically, the audience senses it but is impotent to do anything about it."

And then he proceeds to get pessimistic.

This is really scary to me. I've followed these guys for 20 yrs & although they've been early on calling changes in macro trends, they've never been wrong.

Basically he goes on to say that SEAsia + Japan + China are not going to improve ( China will devalue soon ) & a crippling deflation will arrive on our shores.

Damn! that probably means that my equities won't have time to double again.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:07 - ID#335190)
New World Order Corruption In Canada @ Robert O'Driscoll "QUOTED"
"Canadians believe that their is a natural boundary that engulfs the people noth of the United States. We like Americans as our neighbours. We don't want them as our landlords. Therefore, we have to take control."

"We are the largest and richest country in the world and we need to take our country back. It was stolen from us first when the Bank of Canada was established in 1935, and more conclusively when Mulroney did his Free Trade Deal . 2005 - the date of the final implementation of the Free Trade Deal - is just down the road, and we need to take our country back NOW."

"2.2% of the US population own 90% of its wealth, 60% of the natural resources of the earth. By any stretch of the imagination, that's an empire."

"They have no enemies in Russia any more: Communism is a spent force. They have no enemies in the labour unions: they've bought out the leadership of both sides."

"They have only one enemy left: that is "US", and "WE" represent 97.8% of the Canadian population. There is no way we can be stopped, once "WE" get organized and show that nothing can stand in the way when the "VAST" majority of a population expresses its will in unison."

"Who will fire their guns upon "US"? Our National Guard? They are "OUR" children, and they know this is what "WE" have to do."

"To the oligarchies and plutocrats, drugs have a two-fold purpose: first, to bring in colossal sums of money and second, to eventually turn a major part of the population into mindless drug zombies who will br easier to control than people who don't need drugs."

"Punishment for rebellion against the One-World Government that is coming will mean withholding of supplies of heroin, cocaine, and marijuana, and will be a potent deterrent."

"It is necessary to legalize drugs so that a Monopoly System, which is being readied, can be introduced once severe economic conditions ( of which the 1991 depression is the forerunner ) intensify drug usage. Hundreds of thousands of permanently jobless workers will turn to drugs for solace."

"Having been failed by Christianity, and with unemployment on every hand, those who have been without jobs for five years or more will turn away from the church and seek solace in drugs."

( PHARMACEUTICAL DRUGS - MOOD ALTERING TYPE, ARE AT HUGE SALES IN 1998, AND ON THE RISE. VIAGRA & PROZAC & paradise and the profits of drug companies? ) ( Does Prozac prevent you from finding a certain solace? Who are you without medication? will you ever know? ) ( In the new age of do-it-yourself, on-the-run Pharmo-Capitalism, the game is going to the innovator )

( How long does this go on? You ask your Psychiatrist. He gaves you a raised eyebrow. "No one knows. Its a day at a time" )

"Drug bars will take care of the unruly and the discontent; would-be revolutionaries will be turned into harmless addicts with no will of their own..."

.................[Illegal ( not sanctioned by official rules ) Drugs]

" From Colombia to Miami, from the Golden Triangle to the Golden Gate, from Hong Kong to New York, from Bogota to Frankfurt, the drug trade, and more especially the heroin trade, is BIG BUSINESS and it is run from the top down by some of the most "untouchable" families in the world."

"It is not a street corner business, and it takes a great deal of money and expertise to keep it flowing smoothly. The pushers and peddlers are an integral part of the trade, but only as very small part-time salesmen."

"There is not a single government that does not know precisely what is going on with regards to the drug trade, but individual members holding powerful positions are taken care of."

Be Quiet..Consume...And Die
FWIW.........Take Care

(Sat May 30 1998 17:11 - ID#373403)
Why would I walk into your office to sell? I would send it to the refinery and wait a week for my money. That is my point, the buy/sell spread on coins seems bigger than the fabrication/refining spread on casting grain.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:15 - ID#27341)
This news is indeed terrible oh oh oh,better tell the talking heads quickly.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:15 - ID#411112)
You will have to scroll down to the ECONOMY section it is a two part story well worth reading if do not understand what this is all about

(Sat May 30 1998 17:16 - ID#207145)
Your post confirms what i've been thinking, with remourse...
Agood while ago I heard it was first Asia, then Latin America ( also Russia ) , then USA and finally Europe. Utilities and bonds huh?

(Sat May 30 1998 17:17 - ID#251166)
Never paper, always physical

Ive considered waiting until the end of June before posting what Ive done, but what Ive done is a secret that not only burns like a coal in the shorts, but one Ive concluded is just plain gutless not to reveal *before* things pan out. Otherwise Id be either gloating or publicly licking my wounds. So . . . we watch this new jones market together, yes?

Heres my quandary: I want more gold. But Im broke; my investment moneys tied up in gold. So how do I get more gold?

Heres my thinking: Gold will drift sideways until at least July when the EMU makes their big announcement re. gold reserves ( that is, if its not postponed again ) . The flip side: Due to the perceived unreliability of palladium supply, manufacturers are switching to platinum. So Im looking for plat to jump next month. ( Even Im surprised to find myself aligned with RJ on this one! )

Heres some more of my thinking ( I know, dangerous stuff ) : Although the gold and platinum markets should be viewed as independent of one another, Ive been unable to ignore the ratio between the two. As of Fridays close the gold/plat ratio was just over 1.26:1 ( that is, about 63 ounces of gold buys about 50 ounces of platinum ) . Okay, thats one thing. Heres another: A ten percent rise in gold ( from $292/oz. ) is $321. A ten percent rise in platinum ( from $369/oz. ) is $406. Another thought: Both are cheap today  gold seemingly perennially cheap; platinum newly cheap.

Now some fundamentals: Always bubbling to the surface of my meager gray matter is the axiom: Gold is *the* political metal ( and therefore subject to manipulation ) . And although I do believe gold will break out big with the demise of this present financial circus, I dont see it happening next month. On the other hand, platinum is one-fifteenth as scarce as gold. And whereas platinum has demonstrated more volatility than gold and therefore ( presently ) appears unlike gold to be a truly *tradable* commodity ( and per studying the charts and news and posts and such ) , I believe there exists the potential for a truly dramatic rise in plat next month.

At the time I accrued my gold holdings ( at avg. spot $292.50 ) , platinum was well over $400. Now, with gold at $292, but with plat at $369, my gold holdings *in relation to plat* are actually still in the black  in fact, as good as, or better than, its ever been. In other words, my gold is worth more today *in platinum* than it was when I bought it earlier this year. ( If you can measure gold in dollars or yen, why not in platinum eagles? )

Question: What is more likely to occur in June  gold to $321? or plat to $406? ( This assumes the maintenance of a 63:50 gold/plat ratio. ) Answer: I think its more likely plat will rise to $406 than gold to $321 in June.

Question: Can we look for an increase ( beyond 63:50 ) in the ratio between gold and platinum? Answer: I think so.

That said, heres what I did: I liquidated my gold holdings ( except for one ounce ) , and bought platinum. ( Ach! Heresy on a gold site! But hear me out. I *want* more gold, remember? ) The actual transaction ratio in ounces, gold/plat, ran about 64 to 50  that is, every 50 ounces of platinum cost about 64 ounces of gold ( this is washing through coin premiums partially recovered or bought, configuring a transaction unit of 64 gold to 50 plat that includes a transaction unit cost of about one ounce of gold ) .

My objective: To realize next month enough of a gain in the *ratio* of gold to platinum  presumably through an increase in plat and perhaps even by a decrease in gold  to do it again *in reverse*  that is, sell plat for gold  and thereby increase my total gold holdings.

Heres the math ( per 50 oz. plat figuring gold @ $300 ) : Plat goes to $406, youre up ( +4 ) to 68 oz. gold. Beyond $400/oz. plat, every five percent increase buys a little more than three ounces of gold. Plat up 15% @ $424 = ( +7 ) 71 oz. gold. Plat up 20% @ $443 = ( +10 ) 74 oz. gold. Etcetera ( less about one ounce of gold per 50 oz. plat transaction unit ) ...

Or not. All this of course is based on the premise that were betting to win ( not place, not show ) .

Anyway, thats the play. Just apprising you, FWIW. ( My wife would freak. The worse you guys will do is call me an idiot. *That* I can handle. )

(Sat May 30 1998 17:19 - ID#411112)
themissinglink....silly me I thought we were talking about the need for instant cash...when the s@it

hits the fan I'am sure the post office will still function,and your neighbour will trade it for food

(Sat May 30 1998 17:33 - ID#413195)
Ronald MacDonald
In the words of a famous trouble maker

Can't we all just . . .

. . . GET ALONG? . . .

So's I can pick the brains of anyone I please without appearing to take


And, if we all agree to do this, I will give each and every one of you
unfettered access to my wife's considerable BEANIE BABY investment
wisdom! :- )

Gawd, I hate those things.

But I can't convince the Missus how bad they are as an investment; she keeps throwing my gold investments in my face . . . TOUCHE!

With what we've spent on TEENIE BEANIE BABY McDonald's burgers this past week I coulda' bought at least one sweet Oct Platinum call . . . grrrr . . .

"Ron," she says to me, "I'm going to a conference in Washington this
weekend, and I want to to make the rounds of every MacDonald's in this
cow town AT LEAST TWICE A DAY . . . OR ELSE!"

Delicious irony: As I was making my Beanie rounds this morning I happened to cruise by the local high school where the wrestling team was putting on a charity car wash. Well, I drives up and gives those boys about 40 hamburger happy meals with Cokes . . . ABSOLUTELY FREE . . . Ya shoulda' seen them scarf 'em down. This from guys who'll SPIT for six hours before a meet to lose a pound and make their weight. The coach was nowhere to be seen, and I'm sure he'll think it was the dirty trick of a rival coach . . . heeheeheehee . . .

(Sat May 30 1998 17:34 - ID#45173)
John Disney: just caught your post on guns and drugs
An argument can be made that your smoke hurts others and therefore smoking should be banned in public places where it may effect others, but it is a weak argument since there are plenty of other more significant risks that are not so easily regulated ( e.g., smog ) . I smoke sometimes and try to be considerate of folks who don't like it. Or I go someplace where smoking is permitted and if there's someone there who doesn't like it I invite them to go someplace they'll like better where smoking is not allowed. Guns are lethal weapons, designed for killing people. No surprise, then, that there's a strong correlation between the strinctness of a nation's gun control laws and the number of gun-related deaths. Is there such a clear correletion between the strinctness of a nation's gun control laws and the degree of government subjugation of its citizens? Not that I am aware of.

There is a paradox in your view that strict death penalty laws are the answer to lowering the murder rate in the US. I can imagine no greater restriction on civil liberties than results from the kinds of laws you are promoting. My wife comes from a country where the penalty for murder, among other things, was death. No if's and's or but's. They also had incredibily strict gun control laws. Simply put, citizens did not own guns. Only persons who were professionally trained to handle lethal weapons were allowed to possess them. The murder rate by guns was just about zero. Unfortunately, the murder rate of innocent citizens by the government was very high, especially if you were poor and could not afford a good lawyer. When the country became more liberalized, the death penalty laws were relaxed, but not the gun control laws. The murder rate by guns went up while the rate death by government execution went down. Either way, whether the government kills innocent people in an electric chair or by making them prey to untrained novices and criminals to whom they give easy access to guns by failing to control them, the effect is more or less the same. You seem to lean more toward death by government execution. I like the example set by countries that do not allow any joker to own lethal weapons.

You and I are in complete agreement on the current selective prohibition on all drugs except alchohol. Let's lift all prohibitions on drugs. They hurt the user directly, but others only indirectly.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:34 - ID#153102)
Well, I sure appreciate the thought.
Actully, I have never been to Wisconsin. But it comes highly rated - this time of year.
Although I admit to riding, metaphorically, in the ssm, I haven't been blowing smoke posting here. And I've got a lot of things yet to do. So, if my posts drop off, you'll know why. But, I regret missing out on the occasion.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:34 - ID#255284)

here's ANOTHER way to get your hands on gold:

Just heard on radio news, "my" local coin shop was ram-raided last night, I shall have to find out how much precious the thieves got away with, I know most of the real goodies are locked up good. But there's a lot that a knowledgable thief could have stolen.

"Why do you rob banks?"
"Because that's where the money is."

Forgot who said that.

"Rock 'n roll in my feet, gold in my heart, and a touch of larceny in my heart."

Creed of the auracious one, well, a man's got to believe in something.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:38 - ID#252127)
Just some Ideas.

Anyone with an idea how the sanctions on India will effect the price of silver over the next couple of months?
My best quess is that exports of silver jewelry from Indai will suffer, but be made to some extent by increased Italian exports.
I think imports of silver into India will resume using the old trade route thru Dubai and both Indian and Pakistani hoarding may even increase.
My feeling is that only very high prices will bring the hoarded faction of silver out of those countries, as this is essentially internally circulated as family supports.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:40 - ID#252150)
Blooper@I wish I could pinch ny nose & buy the long bond right here.
I've felt for the last yr or so that we may see a 4% yield on the long bond. As I posted back in Jan. the easiest money this year will be made selling every JY rally. The last 1 alone has gained over $12000 per contract in 6 wks or so. I'm hoping for another pullback to 135 ( but it's now unlikely ) where capitulation may set in & the $ may go to 160 JY.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:41 - ID#27341)
did like dat,

(Sat May 30 1998 17:45 - ID#255284)
The Collected works of

Have you collected all your posts? I was wondering if you had and would make them available from Bart's server? I have missed some vital logical links to the Bank, and rather than ask you to repeat them....

Sort of thing I'd like to take on a forthcoming fishing trip.....

(Sat May 30 1998 17:46 - ID#43460)
EJ, having control fantasies?
Crime would go away if criminals were sentenced to smoke all the marijuana and opium they wanted. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz......

(Sat May 30 1998 17:46 - ID#317193)
Good calls on the JY....yes, very good.


(Sat May 30 1998 17:51 - ID#43460)
themissinglink re investment in casting grain
Would it be impolite to our host to ask you for your list of refineries who would buy/sell to hobbyists, investors and other non-certified-jeweler types? If not, please post and if so please email to

(Sat May 30 1998 17:52 - ID#252150)
Aurator@"Because that's where the money is"
Willie Sutton said that. I read his autobiography & he was a fascinating guy. He would disguise himself as a police officer to rob banks, & on 1 occasion he came upon a traffic accident while disguised & actually directed traffic around it & chatted with another officer. His main claim to fame was his 2 incredible escapes from supposedly escape proof prisons.

(Sat May 30 1998 17:58 - ID#373403)
You are right if you are talking about armageddon. For the normal run of the mill depression, they usually unfold over several years. If you are going to need to liquidate at the first sign of trouble then you probably have too little finances to weather the storm anyways, gold or no gold.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:03 - ID#335190)
May 30, 1998

Pakistan sets off another nuclear blast

Pakistan said Saturday's test explosion was the equivalent of 18 kilotons of
TNT -- the same size as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan, at the
end of the Second World War. However, U.S. intelligence sources in
Washington said the actual figure was closer to two kilotons.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:03 - ID#252150)
TYoung@I just wish I was'nt so conservative with my stops. This could have been the
big 1 for me but I did'nt have the courage of my convictions. As they say you can't go broke by taking a profit, but if you take them too soon you can't get rich either.

Oh well! As we always implore: just give me one more chance God & I won't screw it up again.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:04 - ID#255284)
ames, thank you, Willie Sutton, indeedy...

I posted part of this last September:

Many useful tips on breaking into bank vaults can be found in Albert Spaggiari's account of how he and his team of specialists broke into The Socit Gnrale bank in Nice through the sewers and made away with a fortune: The Sewers of Gold by Albert Spaggiari Granada Publishing 1981. The following quote is from Spaggiaris description of himself, a bit of an adventurer:

"Soldier of fortune, political activist, thief, jailbird ... I have my humbe side and my megolomaniac side. Basically, however, I stay in the middle of the road.

I like all kinds of women - especially brunettes, blondes, and redheads. I'm also fond of animals. All kinds of animals, but mostly the ones that are hunted, because we share the same fate."

(Sat May 30 1998 18:05 - ID#276251)
Kitco: too much and too fast
for me to digest and to participate. Anyway, heres my twocents worth raising from the discussion during the last 24 hours.
Firstly: there might be a connection between following happenings during the last few weeks. 1 ) AG and Rubin talking to the agrolobby in congress trying to persuade them to back the IMF funding. 2 ) Rubin announcing the U.S. will not object yen raising to 150 per $. 3 ) Glinkman announcing the U.S. will reconsider its policy and ( perhaps ) start subsidising the export of agricultural products anew. The last one underlines the importance of what is happening, because it suggests a reversal of the U.S. policy while preparing to the negotiations under the WTO about the liberalisation of the trade of agricultural products.
Conclusion is obvious: to win time for Japan to recover the U.S. is prepared to revalue the dollar and suffer from the increasing current account deficit. ( Interesting enough, its one of Amstrongs advices for Japan as well. )

Secondly: To the Russia fan club! Oris, Junior, John Disney, may I join you? While my idea about the Siberian way of life is less romantic than yours, my admiration of the people is the same. I think Oris hit the point when describing their way of making deals - no paper needed. They have a saying "paper ( in the meaning of written document ) is paper" including money - I guess. All paper is conceived as a means to exploit the people. Furthermore the lack of money has created a most innovative way of living, the families exchanging commodities and services or anything with real value. What a drastic contrast to the wstern way of life with the exploding derivatives realm!

(Sat May 30 1998 18:05 - ID#255284)

Don't boggart that J my friend, pass it over to ames.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:08 - ID#153102)
No. I guess Bart is the collector. I take it as a high compliment that you think of my posts as worthy of the company of fish. You may not know Herbert Hoover once said, "All men are equal before fish."

(Sat May 30 1998 18:09 - ID#335190)
May 30, 1998

Thinking the unthinkable: Nuclear war in South Asia

NEW DELHI ( AP-CP ) -- In less than four minutes from launch, a Pakistani missile could hit India's capital with a Hiroshima-sized nuclear bomb. India could devastate the Pakistani capital in just three minutes.

Paul Beaver, spokesman for defence publisher Jane's Information Group, said Pakistan and India each are believed to have 12 to 18 nuclear weapons packing yields equivalent to about 20 kilotonnes of TNT.

That's the size of the atomic bomb that the United States dropped on Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945, killing about 100,000 people. The death toll in a dense city like New Delhi, home to 10 million people, could easily exceed 100,000.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:15 - ID#254201)
Silver to 7 then 11
Once a market is identified as one, which is following the Elliot Wave Theory, it can be used as a framework for future trading opportunities. In a 5-wave sequence waves will mirror previous like waves. In other words the relationships between waves and time will tend to be the same. An example might be if within wave I , wave 3 was 1.618 of wave 1 the wave III leg will have a wave 3 that is 1.618 of wave 1 also. With that in mind look at t he chart with projections for silver until the end of the year when silver should be near 11.00. I believe Fridays lows at 492 was the bottom of wave II any purchase under $5.10 should be a good one. There maybe a test of 4.90 but I doubt it. If Friday's low are taken out by more then a couple cents there has been a U turn in the road and the map is going the wrong way. If this forecast turns out to some how be correct I'd update wave 3.

S&P should get tanked Mon. and Tues. with a low near 1060 then another big rally into July or Aug.

Gold still looks like its going to trade down to 280.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:19 - ID#210235)
@Another big earthquake - killed thousands today.
Query to the scientists out there - could there be a link to the nuke explosions Thursday and this morning? It seems logical but I have too little data to know. Sitting beside 2 major faults under stress, I am more than a little curious.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:19 - ID#27341)
Sat may 30 Reuters, Malaysia,s economy heads into a tailspin.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:20 - ID#335190)
Japan's jobless rate climbs to record high of 4.1 per cent

TOKYO ( AP ) -- Japan's jobless rate hit 4.1 per cent in April, its highest level on record, the government announced Friday, signaling the world's second biggest economy's quickening slide toward recession.

The jobless rate was the highest since the government began measuring unemployment in 1953, a government management agency said.

Japan's unemployment rate would be even higher if calculated by U.S. and European standards. The country counts anyone who has worked one hour or more in the month surveyed as fully employed.

Friday's figures showed the ranks of Japan's unemployed swelled by 590,000 in April from a year earlier to an all-time high of 2.9 million, while the number of workers with jobs dropped by 420,000 to 65.3 million -- the largest loss of jobs since April 1975.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:21 - ID#210235)
@Auracious one -
glad to see you back, even if you've been taking bites out of us poor 'Merkans.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:22 - ID#43460)
Oil up, lumber down; interesting commodity report.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:23 - ID#411149)
Another post
I found this on on the DROOY message board.
Another sure knows his STUFF.

Date: April 20, 1998 10:57 PM



Tally Ho

(Sat May 30 1998 18:24 - ID#230376)
@ Al

Thanks for the work on silver !!

(Sat May 30 1998 18:29 - ID#230376)
@ auracious...............Willy Sutton ???????????

I thought it was Alan Greenspan.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:34 - ID#255284)
I'd rather be fishing.
Yar, I take big bites out of the merkans, but I'll always share a ham sandwich.

Thinking, I was, of Robbie Burns this morning:

Oh wud some poer the giftie gie us
to see oursels as others see us.

just think of me as that gift! :-^ )

all men are equal before fish, like it!

(Sat May 30 1998 18:37 - ID#342315)
robnoel re Thewinds
I found it and will indulge this weekend. If Clinton is pushing it, you better CYA. I would rather deal with a rattlesnake . Thanx, Charlie

(Sat May 30 1998 18:38 - ID#288295)
Ron @ Mc Teenie Beanies
Friend, I know where you're coming from, in spades. My wife has bought upwards of 120 of those damn things just this week....I can't convince her about the perils of manias, and so far Beanies are making my gold & silver investments look like just plain stupidity. One of us IS stupid, but which one is it?

(Sat May 30 1998 18:39 - ID#401460)
Pagasas Gold

I ask earlier if anyone had additional information on Pagasas Gold; more on that latest article, which does not clarify what it means that stock holders would get nothing - this is not a chapter 7 bankruptcy we are looking at, this is chapter 11 reorganization. In other words the Company eventually comes out of protection and is still viable.


(Sat May 30 1998 18:40 - ID#335190)
Gordon Thiessen - Governor Bank of Canada @ IMF'S & USofA Federal Reserves' man in action.
Commodity prices hit five-year low in May: TD Bank

TORONTO ( CP ) -- The newest strain of Asian economic flu has dragged commodity prices to five-year lows and infected the Canadian dollar, says a report by the Toronto Dominion Bank.

Courchene said. "It's looking quite likely that we'll have interest rate increases in the United States this year," she said.

"Growth is still continuing at a pretty good clip, and we're going to see signs of inflation picking up in the U.S."

That would force Bank of Canada governor Gordon Thiessen to follow the American lead and raise rates despite an absence of compelling Canadian reasons to do so.

"The bank is in a tight corner," Courchene said. "If you look at Canada in isolation, there's not a huge reason for the Bank of Canada to have to raise interest rates, because inflation is very low and the economy is not at full potential.

"But we have to look at external factors at the same time."

After a brief April rally, gold prices retreated to below $300 US an ounce as traders speculated about how much of the metal the European union's new central bank will hold.

Silver suffered as a result of economic sanctions imposed against India, a major exporter, when it began underground testing of nuclear weapons, the report says.

All this has taken its toll on the Canadian dollar, which closed down 0.12 of a cent Friday at 68.63 cents US, less than half a cent away from January's historic closing low of 68.25.

The Federal Reserve Board also faces the risk that raising U.S. rates could add to the instability in Asian markets, where money looking for a stable footing would surely flee, he added.

(Sat May 30 1998 18:53 - ID#255284)
I've read many times about beenie babies here. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, I've always thought they were kinda like cabbage patch kids, no?

(Sat May 30 1998 18:53 - ID#335190)
FWIW @ Gold & War & What happened to the fundamentals? (War=Gold price increase)
World condemns Pakistan of N-blasts

LONDON ( CP ) -- Nations around the world condemned Pakistan's latest nuclear test Saturday and demanded an end to the spiralling arms race in South Asia.

From Japan and Australia to Germany and the United States and Canada, there was widespread frustration and disappointment that Pakistan had ignored international calls for restraint after its first series of nuclear tests Thursday.

The first tests were in response to five detonations that Pakistan's neighbor and main rival, India, set off on May 11 and 13.

The Dutch government said Pakistan's latest test will be taken into consideration next week when the European Union decides on sanctions against Islamabad.

"Other nuclear threshold states, such as Israel and North Korea, would go the same way, if the pain of sanctions is not felt," it said.

India and Pakistan have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947 and Kashmir has been the focus of their enmity. So far outsiders have either failed or been rebuffed in mediation attempts.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:00 - ID#27341)
i,m with TYoung, believe next move in US interest rates will be down.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:04 - ID#412286)
Democratic Socialists
such as myself give very low grades to Clinton. Nafta, Gatt and support for MAI for starters. Support Red Chinese and Indonesian Labor rights violations. The IMF using hard earned taxpayer money to either bailout capitalist investors or give the illusion that all is ok. Support though tacit through policies of obscene wages for corporate execs while working people stagnate. Lets make stk options an expense on the corporate bottom line. As Socialists we view democracy as two pronged 1 ) the actual legal rights and 2 ) an economic balance which allows for the effective use and enforcement of democratic rights. Pure capitalists always emphasize purely the economic which through the eventually concentration of wealth creates a pseudo democratic or actual undemocratic reality with the concentration of wealth. In Europe this is being avoided hence the new reserve currency. The US is fragile and can not withstand a socio-economic jolt, It is a house of cards just as the elitist "Communist" system was in the former USSR. Salute to a Democratic Socialist future in the US after the collapse. Socialism yes tyranny NO!!!

(Sat May 30 1998 19:05 - ID#273432)
Yes - sort of like Cabbage Patch Kids, but with an infinitely better marketing strategy. I won't bore you with the details - if interested you can get them at this web site or do a search on Beanie babies -you'll find out more than you ( or I ) want to know.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:06 - ID#238422)
You are the member of the club now, brother.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:15 - ID#27341)
ROR, add me to your list.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:15 - ID#403335)
While $280ish gold can not be ruled out, do the notes written on your chart suggest you are projecting a low for gold at $175, or is that the low hit in the year 75? As for your projection for silver, seems risky to use Ewave to "forecast" how the waves will unfold in the future. It's a tough enough task to determine how the waves are unfolding in the present. Wouldn't this give Kitco readers that have faith in your track record a false sense of security.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:33 - ID#255284)
Kashmir, the Old Testament, Jesus, Apricots and Gold --- where else but kitco?
Kashmir is one of the most beautiful countries I have seen in Asia. That it and Jammu are fought over is unsuprising, it is just ANOTHER legacy of the British Raj. In "Jesus lived in India - his unknown life before and after the crucifixion," Holger Kersten 1983 Droemar/knaur, Munich, the author identifies the Kashmir valley as the homeland of the 10 lost tribes of Israel these are amongst the names mentioned in the old testament that have equivalent names in Kashmir ; Amal, Attai, Gomer. Gaddi, here are some slightly different names, first Kashmir, then the Old testatment: Asheria, Asher: Bal, Baal: Bala, Balah, Bera, Beerah, ( get the idea? ) There are dozens of them. Also, Kashmir boasts the tomb of Moses, the keeper of the tomb has been the same family for over two thousand years, says Kersten. There are also references to Jesus' travels in Kashmir, before and after the crucifixion, he claims...

Kashmir is one of the fruit bowls of India. The apricots are insipid. An apricot grower I know in Central Otago, who grows beautiful apricots asserts that the best apricots are grown in gold country. Central Otago was the focus of the 2nd New Zealand Goldrush.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:39 - ID#238422)
EJ, your 17:34 post.
I guess you must know that there is a direct correlation
between the limitations on gun ownership and political
system in the country. The more totaletarian regime is,
the less gun ownership or FREEDOMS in general the people
of the country are allowed. I lived in the U.S.S.R. for
33 years, and I'm afraid that your ideas on benefits of
gun control are mostly theoretical. However, if you had
practical experience living for a few years in one of
the countries of so called "socialist camp" as a citizen
of such country, I will listen to your arguments with
attention. With all my respect, it's not generally
smart to discuss things that you never PRACTICALLY faced.

Please do not take it personnally...I do not know many
things that you know, but you do not know many things that
I we must share with each other, yes?

In the U.S., many gunowners, besides aspects of personal
protection in face of armed criminals, consider gun control
laws as the way of government to limit their freedoms in
general. This is historically sound approach, proven by the
history. I'm one of these gunowners.


P.S.Alcohol is not drug. It is beverage.

Take care.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:43 - ID#335190)
ROR @ 19:04
capitalist investors---corporate execs-- corporate bottom line-- Pure capitalists ---economic --- concentration of wealth -- pseudo democratic --undemocratic reality -- socio-economic -- The IMF -- taxpayer money

Labor rights---working people

Socialism yes tyranny NO!!! --As Socialists ---democracy --legal rights --economic balance ---elitist "Communist" --Salute to a Democratic Socialist

ROR: could you put a direction to your post.

First: What the hell is a Socialist.
Second: What is Democratic qualifying.
Third: Explain Capitalist.
Fourth: Explain, Communist.

Now, explain the connection of "Tax Payer - Working people - Labour Rights" I have an understanding of what you are attempting to project. But, I would appreciate you comments.

Take Care.

(Sat May 30 1998 19:49 - ID#215208)
Its its
RLM - As I read the notes on APH's chart ( a great one by the way ) , it says "gold will hit ITS low", not "gold will hit 175"

(Sat May 30 1998 19:50 - ID#43349)
Meanwhile, back on the street....
When Wall St., Main St. Intersect

By John Cunniff
AP Business Analyst
Saturday, May 30, 1998; 12:01 p.m. EDT

NEW YORK ( AP ) -- If you notice your neighbor acting edgy lately,
understand why: It's the stock market. Stocks have been acting erratically
of late, so its logical the mood of stockholders might be erratic.

Never in American history have so many people placed so much faith in
stocks. Never in history has there been a bull market like this one. Never
before has there been the potential to lose so much in financial assets.

Moreover, Americans have built an intricate financial structure based on
their investment hopes, one that involves pensions, tuitions, houses, tax
deferments and financial legacies. That's a lot to be riding on the stock

Expectations too have been riding high. You don't have to search far to
read that this is a new era, one in which the old standards need not apply.
And you can find plenty of five-digit Dow Jones forecasts, even if
price-to-value ratios are already out of whack.

That's because of the future. Americans have placed a huge bet on the
future, believing it will become a technological marvel that will make
business more productive, workers better paid, life more pleasurable.
Consumer confidence measurements are consistently high.

Already, people speak about the wealth effect, which creates a
psychological disposition to spend on luxuries, such as newer cars and
$200 family outings at the ballpark. And all that credit?

``Don't worry about it -- we might be cash poor but we're rich in assets.''

Social critics will tell you that all this is a departure from the old American
ethic of hard work and slow but somewhat steady progress. They'll often
comment that people today are in too much of a hurry, too greedy, and
that sooner or later haste makes waste.

But you can also argue that what's going on today is typically American:
faith in the future, inventiveness, self-reliance, creativity, entrepreneurial
risk-taking. And isn't America the story of material progress, of
generations living better than the ones before?

With the stakes so high, no wonder your neighbor might feel nervous.

For the first time, Americans households have more invested in stocks ( 28
percent ) than in houses ( 27 percent ) . In 1990, stocks accounted for just
12 percent, while real estate measured 33 percent.

Wall Street today intersects with Main Street.

It is more extraordinary when you consider that housing prices have been
rising strongly; the median price for an existing home reached $125,900 in
the first quarter of the year, a 5.4 percent rise in just one year. But stocks
have been rising even faster.

Changed lending standards have also contributed to the relative decline of
home investments vs. stocks. You can buy houses with very little down
these days and pay relatively low mortgage rates. No wonder ownership
rates are near all-time highs.

Perhaps more significantly, you can borrow great amounts on your home's
increased market value via the equity loan or second mortgage. It adds to
the wealth effect, giving you the freedom to use funds for other purposes,
such as stocks and mutual funds.

All this adds to the possibilities for greater financial gains and, of course,
to the risk. And so it isn't at all difficult to understand why it's unnerving to
your neighbor to read about the financial troubles in Indonesia, Korea,
Japan, Russia and Mexico.

It is especially so when accompanied by the realization that bad times
could depress the value of one's stocks, one's house, and one's plans for
tuition and retirement.

Are Americans playing too risky a game? Nobody can say for certain, but
in the long run, and in spite of terrible short-term collapses, the odds have
been with the risk-taker. Americans actually create new eras, and maybe
the best of them is yet to come.

 Copyright 1998 The Associated Press

(Sat May 30 1998 20:02 - ID#43349)
If the Fed wakes up to what's going on, forgets
it's focus on inflation, and does the right thing
it will lower rates

If they continue with the same near sighted short
term fiscal policy which has brought us here to the
brink, they will raise rates.

If they do do the right thing, they still have to
do it at just the right time. Raise them too
soon and it's more gas on the fire. Wait too
long and it will be too late to pull out.

(Sat May 30 1998 20:07 - ID#413195)
in crazy-sack-o-beanies
Silverbaron: Hang in there, brother! When wild horses rear up and rip the reins from the grubby little mitts of the PPT, gold and silver both will soar . . . And Beanie Babies sewn between two large plastic sheets will make great comforters for the unthinking masses . . .

Aurator: Yes, like Cabbage Patch dolls, only crazier. The regular Beanies are only about a fifth the size of a Cabbage Patch doll, and these "teenie beanies" are about a third the size of THAT. If you could see one, you'd see right away the thing is only worth about eighty-nine cents in it's own right. Silverbaron had it right: It is an absolute nutty, nutty mania.

At one MacDonald's I went to this morn, the kid at the counter told me that a guy had just called in and wanting to buy 600 Happy Meals. MacDonald's turned him down.

I've already told the Missus: The next time MacDonald's wants to sell a quarter-billion burgers, fries and cokes, they can count us OUT. Don't really think she heard me though . . . unfortunately . . .

Oh, God . . . In another hour or two, I've got to make another run . . . Then two tomorrow, and two Monday . . . arghhhhhhh!

Hey! Anyone want some free burgers and fries? You'll have to pay the shipping . . . heeheehee . . . no? . . . maybe I'll drive over to the "bad" part of town and find me some homeless chaps . . .

. . . loadin' me Uzi . . .

. . . AWAY . . . boo-hoo . . .


(Sat May 30 1998 20:10 - ID#255284)
Friends, merkans and fellow countrymen! Lend me your eras!
Now *this* is really funny, from one of your previous posts:

"Americans actually create new eras, and maybe the best of them is yet to come. "
 Copyright 1998 The Associated Press

(Sat May 30 1998 20:14 - ID#255284)
Hey, can I sell you some pretty autumn leaves?
Yeah I followed silverbarron's link to the beanie babies. People are collecting these things?

away to shake my head, and wonder at Phineas T Barnum's wisdom"

"You'll never go broke underestimating the taste of the merkan public."

(Sat May 30 1998 20:17 - ID#20748)
With all due respect, correct spelling of the word is 'merkin'.

(Sat May 30 1998 20:29 - ID#413195)
in sack-o-merkin/merkan?
Pardon, everyone. For eight months I've been nursin' a slipped disk, totally unable to even do much lurkin' hereabouts.

And now I find myself in Beanie Hell . . .

. . . Out of the fryin' pan . . .

Is Merkin/Merkan something that originated here at Kitco, or am I just pathetically unread and unwashed in my new Beanie lust? Does it stand for an aMERiKAN?

Merkin . . . she ain't in my dictionary.


(Sat May 30 1998 20:32 - ID#43460)
beanie babies and mania
Some of you guys recall that earlier this year I reported my home town market of beanie babies to be saturated? Well, it still is, but now there is furious trade going on again, plus new activity haggling over the Mcbeanies. Sounds like they've gone from speculating over tulips to haggling over the buds. People driving around eating french fries and all manner of fat laden produce, the whole world is nuts! Maybe somebody could come out with a beanie baby medallion? I asked my family if they wanted Happy Meals today. They just laughed and asked for 20 pounds of crawfish instead. IMHO

(Sat May 30 1998 20:32 - ID#26793)
Barrick Gold news

(Sat May 30 1998 20:36 - ID#43460)
Ron re Mercan
A' t'ink Merkan, he cousin to Strailyan. Jes' don' smell as bad.

(Sat May 30 1998 20:40 - ID#255284)
with all due respect, I believe I coined the word, ( will stand corrected ) the first time I used it here it was as "merkin" on 9/4/98, 3:23,. But i forgot how to spell, and since 25/5/98, you must remember that! I and others here have called y'all "merkans"

Now, I think that merkin sounds quite friendly, like a wizard or a leprauchaun's familiar, perhaps a pickle. While "merkan" sounds more like Dan Dare's nemesis the Mekon, or muddy waters or perhaps someone pursuing happiness I don't know. No doubt, if the neologism has power, it will have a life of its own anyway, like "speach" and "brabo" "F*d" "Murred" and "Bartman." Once uttered such words are freely given to humanity... I remain your 'umble spinner of words....some call me auracious...

I am aurator in paradise..

(Sat May 30 1998 20:44 - ID#26793)
Malaysian economy heads into tailspin.

(Sat May 30 1998 20:47 - ID#255284)
Thanks for reminding me of that one too. yeah, I said we should call the lucky country "Stralia" until they got their gobmnit straightened up on holding Au. They don't deserve this illustrious prefix. I mean Austria puts out them philharmonics, yes, and so Austria deserves the honour. Not our stralian cousins, uh uh.

There were no stralian teams got to even the semi-finals of the Super 12's. they can't play rugby either.

(Sat May 30 1998 20:49 - ID#228128)
Great chart and commentary. I printed it and am now off to study it.

(Sat May 30 1998 20:51 - ID#413195)
in sack-o-merkan-beanies
gagnrad: Yum, Yum. Psssst, buddy, I'll give 'ya this here wheelbarrow full of Happy Meals for a pocketfull of crawfish?

Whatcha mean, no deal?

Is this Deja Vu, or what? Where have we heard such things 'afore?

Ja wohl, mein Herr.

Social collapse . . . Economic collapse. . . Can seem kinda close at times like these.

The clock, she is a tickin'.

We may use a lot of deodorant hereabouts, but Merkan brains generally gotta take the cake as the world's most manipulated and confused . . .

'Drather have the stink, myself . . .

(Sat May 30 1998 20:54 - ID#254112)
"The Gold of the Scythians"...
...was the title of an incredible beatiful exhibition which I saw many years ago in Munich.
You never know exactly what it was that contributed to make a goldbug out of you.
Here a found a very exciting little story which I will type for you and later tell you where I found it:

"Not long ago, a magnificent gold signet ring was picked up near the old Greek colony of Istria, at the mouth of the Danube. It carried the image of an unknown goddess with a diadem on her pony-tailed hair, looking at herself in a mirror, and it was engraved with the name SKYLEO.

This was one of those rare moments in archeology when something lost and found could be traced to its owner. Scyles, or Scylos, is the name of a man in the centre of a story told by Herodotus. This story is about a different and more ominous kind of 'aporia', about the invisible frontier between ways of life and the inaccessibility of one cuture to another.

Scyles was a Scythian prince who became dazzeled by the Greek city of Olbia. He became two people. Outside the city wall he was a steppe ruler who commanded a complex traditional society with its wagons and herds and rituals. But within the city walls he became a Greek. Scyles kept a Greek wife in Olbia, and on entering the gates would chage his nomade dress for loose Hellenic robes. According to Herodotus, he built an elaborate palace in the town ( although no such palace has been found: the private houses of Olbia, as opposed to the huge minicipal buildings and temples, are modest one-story structures without much decoration ) .

One day, a group of Scythians contrived over the walls into Olbia at the time of the festival of Dionysian mysteries. There they saw Scyles dressed in the regalia of the Dionysian order, reeling through the streets of the sacred procession. To them or rather to Herodotus reconstructing their reactions, this sight meant that Scyles had crossed an uncrossable frontier: by consenting to become a Dionysian initiate, he had betrayed Scythian identity and become a Greek. When they brought the news home, Scyles' brother assumed power in his palace, and Scyles took flight. Heading south-west, he sought asylum with the Tracians who lived on the other bank of the Danube, where it formed a border with the Scythian domains. But he Scythians already held a Thracian prince as hostage, and the Thracians agreed to hand back Scyles in exchange. On the banks of the river, near Istria, Scyles was put to death by his own brother.

The golden ring pretty certainly belonged to Scyles. But it was a stray find. Whether he gave it away before his death, or whether it was wrenched off the fingers of his corpse at the time of his execution or robbed much later from his grave, is not to be known."

Quoted from the book: BLACK SEA by Neal Ascherson, ( First Hill and Wang paperback edition, 1996 ) .

Hope you liked this story.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Sat May 30 1998 20:56 - ID#26793)
Sunshine Mining exec expects to see $10 silver within 10 months.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:00 - ID#43349)
Yeah, I got a kick out of that line too. Could
it be one of those non-sequitors I hear so
much about?

(Sat May 30 1998 21:03 - ID#413195)
in sack-o-crazy-merkans
aurator: It's a CLASSIC! I love it.

gagnrad: Aurator gets a golden medallion for originality.

BTW, years ago, I saw a comic strip ( merkan, of course ) , where one of the Australian characters uttered these immortal words, "Owl 'Strine stalk log this."

Always wondered what a real 'Strine would sound like reading that sentence. :- )

(Sat May 30 1998 21:06 - ID#57232)
Another post from Tony Snow
All: His synopsis of the Clinton Spinmeisters response to ChinaMissleSatGate. This time, the Clinton poll ratings dropped -- they are losing ground.

We must be on our toes -- if the Clinton popularity droops, so may the markets.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:07 - ID#255284)
Less stalk strine
it would sound something like a cat having its tail pulled, something like sawing through metal and just a little like water going down a plug.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:08 - ID#411112)
EJ let me ask the question again,if I were to give up the 2nd amendment which is, to me the most

important.......what would you give up that is most important to you....I bet you won't answer

(Sat May 30 1998 21:10 - ID#26793)
Should you worry about deflation?

(Sat May 30 1998 21:13 - ID#317193)
Dollars & Gold
Thank the almighty, the US dollar is so strong. I cant imagine the US dollar being low. I wonder, in the last 18 years if the US dollar has ever been much lower. If so, Im sure it could not have been to long a time. Dont worry the rest of the world will never sent all those dollars home. They cant, what would they use for commerce.... Tulips?


(Sat May 30 1998 21:14 - ID#207145)
Do you think poor market conditions might hurt an otherwise good stock choise?

(Sat May 30 1998 21:15 - ID#207145)
By the way, I can spell choice

(Sat May 30 1998 21:19 - ID#413195)

Away on my dreaded beanie hunt . . .

(Sat May 30 1998 21:19 - ID#255284)
Just no Grim Reapers.....
Great speach about the Scythians. Don't be afraid, anyone, to throw a gold story like that here.

Thank you for taking the trouble to post it.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:19 - ID#335190)
FWIW @ Catholic & Protestant fight over points of faith. - GOD is on which side?
Police, civilians injured in rioting over Protestant march

PORTADOWN, Northern Ireland ( AP ) -- Catholic protesters and Protestant marchers turned on police trying to keep them apart Saturday, injuring up to a dozen officers.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:20 - ID#373284)
Stand back from the window, even at this distance...I am about to CHORTLE...the boats will be bouncing in the Harbor this evening...

(Sat May 30 1998 21:21 - ID#26793)
Russia struggles to avoid a ruble meltdown.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:23 - ID#26793)
I didn't know Fiji devalued in February.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:25 - ID#26793)
I didn't know the Solomon Islands devalued in April.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:30 - ID#26793)
I didn't know Vanuatu devalued in March.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:37 - ID#43349)
Those dollars have already come home.

Let's say you are a Japanese business man with some Yen
to spend. You could put it into your own economy, but
conditions look risky to obtain a good return. US
markets and ecomomy are doing well, though, and the
US dollar is strong and secure. So you decide to
invest there. However, you need dollars to buy US stock
or treasuries. You go to the local currency exchage and
sell Yen for dollars. Maybe you even borrow all the
Yen you can because Japanese rates are very low, much
lower than US.

Selling Yen for dollars makes more demand for dollars
and creates even stronger dollar and weaker Yen.

Now you take the dollars and buy stocks ( or treasuries ) .
The dollars go back to US and you get to hold the
pretty pieces of paper.

All the dollars coming back to US banks raises
liqiuidity and the Fed has to spend all it's time
draining resserves every night.

The strong dollar has brought all these other
economies to their knees and also served as a
"safe haven" refuge instead of more classic
vehicles such as gold, silver, diamonds, etc.

It is no coincidence that for the last twenty years
of strong dollar, bull equity markets, and expanding
US economy the price of gold has been one long bear

(Sat May 30 1998 21:44 - ID#207145)
The deflation article mentioned oil as an area susseptable to deflation. Do you think energy ( drillers ) could take a hit even going into good seasonality?

(Sat May 30 1998 21:48 - ID#347235)
Yes I did, made a short reply because I am pressed for time today. More later.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:57 - ID#20748)
Didya also coin the word jeet.

(Sat May 30 1998 21:58 - ID#207145)
Davis, N.Y. Venture Fund.
Sart guy. Says he's looking at Slumberger. These stocks are over-sold and loaded for bear. I intend to buy 2 or 3 . I don't care if the market goes straight to the dikens.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:00 - ID#30116)
EJ -- Now I'm really confused.
To parse what you said,

"My wife comes from a country where the penalty for murder, among other things, was death. No if's and's or but's. They also had incredibily strict gun control laws.

Simply put, citizens did not own guns. Only persons who were professionally trained to handle lethal weapons were allowed to

possess them. The murder rate by guns was just about zero. Unfortunately, the murder rate of innocent citizens by the government was very high, especially if you were poor and could not afford a good lawyer. "

OK so far... To continue..

"When the country became more liberalized, the death penalty laws were relaxed, but not the gun control laws. "

Again, OK... I am following your thoughts. Onward I go...

"The murder rate by guns went up while the rate death by government execution went down."

Uh Oh! I'm getting confused here! The gun laws didn't change, but the murder rate went up? Hmmmm, how can this be??? OK, onward...

"Either way, whether the government kills innocent people in an electric chair or by making them prey to untrained novices and criminals to whom they give easy access to guns by failing to control them, the effect is more or less the same."

WHOOOPS! Where did that one come from????? I thought that the government DIDN"T change the gun laws? Where did the easy access come from?? A definite non sequitur here. OK, onward...

" You seem to lean more toward death by government execution. I like the example set by countries that do not allow any joker to own lethal weapons. "

WOW! So only jokers own lethal weapons because they are not a member of the government body? So I think what you are saying is that only the government should own weapons? Hmmmm, I'll have to think about that one, along with tyrants and despots...

(Sat May 30 1998 22:00 - ID#207145)
Actually a smart guy.....So was his dad. I'll get the hang of posting one of these days. Goodnight all.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:03 - ID#207145)
If you're listing devaluations you could be at it for a looooooong time.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:05 - ID#30116)
What were your XAU/Gold ratios for buy and sell points?

(Sat May 30 1998 22:06 - ID#287193)
without much talk...gefrassel.. --- currenc.calc. ---- $ up? -----what now?

(Sat May 30 1998 22:07 - ID#257148)
I'm sorry, I'll read that again
dont know "jeet", didn't mean to imply I coined all those words, I think Murred was auric's and I forgot who first got brabo and speach, part of the golden language, yes?

(Sat May 30 1998 22:10 - ID#287193)
RETIRED SOLDIER.....wish I could be so young again......
saw your post.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:12 - ID#287193)
Thank you, HenryD for trying to help me. I appreciate your post.
---- ( Date: Thu May 28 1998 16:22
HenryD ( Servhard ( @ Dear Bart...Yes this is a super forum ) ID#287193: ) ID#36156: )
Re:Your post have a look at..: Date: Fri May 29 1998 21:00
--silly? I had a big problem!

(Sat May 30 1998 22:12 - ID#344259)
tolerant1 re CMN
Did you catch the show tonite? For children's hospitals- a fund raiser- they are doing pretty good down here. Charlie

(Sat May 30 1998 22:14 - ID#287193)
Thank you, G-spot for your help and compassion- I was out for some
-time. The Undo-disk help when the box goes mad.
( Date: Thu May 28 1998 16:05
------- G-spot ( Servhard...must be your browser.. ) ID#431116:----- )
when you have time to find out how silly I am go to: Date: Fri May 29 1998 21:00

(Sat May 30 1998 22:16 - ID#401460)
Currency Devaluations

Yahoo Search: Currency Devaluations
Applied Derivatives Trading - Devaluations: A Traders Guide

Long-term Perspectives on Financial Markets
February 1998
Bryan Taylor II, Ph.D., President
Global Financial Data


(Sat May 30 1998 22:18 - ID#20748)
jeet, is what you ask a friend when you are on your way to the cafetaria.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:19 - ID#30116)
The conclusion is the same. The dollar must tank for gold to rise ( in U.S. dollar terms ) . The problem is, this occurrence is likely to be dramatic, rapid, and unforeseen. So, if you want to play this ( gold ) game  I guess you'll have to be 'in it' to 'win' it. Unfortunately, you may loose too much 'in it' to have 'winning it', mean anything. Now I understand why gold 'investments' are despised so much Funny how no one will ever articulate it in those terms though

(Sat May 30 1998 22:21 - ID#257148)
G'day. your Sat May 30 1998 13:17 was the first time I've heard that the Isle of Man is one of the Channel Islands. BTW any got a Palladium 1 0z from said Channel Island dated 1987 commemorating the Merka's Cup?

(Sat May 30 1998 22:22 - ID#257148)

(Sat May 30 1998 22:25 - ID#401460)

Did you eat?


(Sat May 30 1998 22:26 - ID#252197)
the razor's edge
Panda ( 22:00 ) : You got microscopic eyes ( vs Betty

Davis ) .

P.S. Good article on information warfare ( scroll

to find ) :

(Sat May 30 1998 22:26 - ID#57232)
Which side is God on?
6Pak: Unfortunately wars are waged for territory, resources, and religion. I find wars/strife based on religious differences the most disturbing of all, because the idea of believing in a 'supreme being' should be nearly anathema to war. God ( or equivalent ) is not really on anyone's side. There is no one true religion, just as there is no one true language.

Of course there will be situations where right and wrong is clear and war is necessary, say against Hitler, etc. But not protestant against catholic, or jew against moslem.

You might be interested in the views of a friend of mine who claims he knows a little ancient middle eastern history. Apparently around the time of Solomon, or a little bit earlier, there was little distinction between arab and jew. At that time apparently the local culture all centered about the Temple Mount, which was a respository for knowledge of some kind. Little villages ( tribes? ) formed about this center of knowledge. Something like the story of the tower of babel evolved, and the differences between the various tribes increased with time. There probably was a little competition as to whom would have control of the temple mount. So, according to this story, arab ( moslem ) and jew may have common ancestors. This makes alot of sense when you consider that they both have claimed the same city for centuries. Would be interesting to do DNA/family studies -- might be an eye opener.

Catholic and protestant have even more in common historically than jew and arab.

My opinion about religion is that it is distorted by the foibles of human interpretation. No religion is necessarily a priori any more false or true than any other. Hence much is learned by studying all the world's religions, as what is significant to religion is what is common to all religion, IMHO. This is the only way the the human factor can be discerned, and the essence of 'true' religion filtered out.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:29 - ID#335196)

I rarely post as I am mostly content to read and soak in

the wisdom that is Kitco.

As my work takes me out of town several days at a time, I

just now read up to last nights Kitco action with the RJ and

Farfel situation, etc. I had to jump ahead here and add a


Farfel, I rank your words of knowledge and wisdom among the

top 3 or 4 here at Kitco and you are certainly one of my

favorites ( as is RJ ) .

Please reconsider, if you haven't already.

Thank you and God bless you.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:35 - ID#20748)
Monica Lewinsky
Lifted from the Drudge Report. Go gold.

By Matt Drudge
Sat May 30 1998 12:28:42 EDT


Hot, hot NEW YORK TIMES columnist Maureen Dowd now says that she has obtained the handwriting samples given by Monica Lewinsky last week
in a Los Angeles FBI office.

"You'll never believe this, but a copy of Monica's scribbles has fallen into my hot little hands," reveals Dowd in soon-to-be-released
Sunday editions.

"Her stream-of-consciousness ramblings are on FBI letterhead -- in a girlish scrawl, with loopy letters, little hearts and breathless

Newspaper insiders have been screaming with hysterical laughter over this Dowd classic. "I vote it the funniest thing Dandy Dowd has ever
written," one of her associates declared early Saturday morning from Washington.

A prerelease obtained by the DRUDGE REPORT, with a tentative title MONICA'S FROWNY FACE, indeed shows Dowd moving it into fifth gear, top

Excerpts of Dowd's Lewinsky handwriting samples: "Monica Clinton. Monica Lewinsky Clinton. Monica Lewinsky Rodham Clinton. Mrs. Big Creep.
( Frowny face. ) First Lady Monica. ( Smiley face. ) ... I HATE Linda Tripp! She calls that a makeover? What a ghoul!!"

"Dear Johnnie Cochran: Can you please, please, please come be my lawyer now? There was no dress, need not confess!! Or, if the dress
doesn't fit -- never mind, I hate that subject... [Ginsburg] keeps dragging me out to dinner so the photographers can take our picture.
Steak! Steak! Steak! Creamed spinach! Cottage fries! Onion ring loaf! Doesn't he know any places with spa cuisine???"

"I'm starting to get scared about prison. I didn't find the last scene of SEINFELD at all funny. I don't want to be buried alive like
Susan McDougal. Her ankle bracelets are sort of sexy, but I look terrible in orange!!"

Dowd does not come up for air once during the 700 words.

"I can't believe Ginsburg made that crack about how Starr had only succeeded in proving that there had been an affair between consenting
adults. HELLOOO! You're MY lawyer, lame-o! You're not supposed to call me a BIMBO and a PERJURER!"


(Sat May 30 1998 22:40 - ID#226327)
Aurator, your 20.40
Dan Dare? The Mekon? I could not help but wonder how many people on Kitco had any idea what you were talking about. Personally, I was pleased to see these names.
(Sat May 30 1998 22:41 - ID#434108)
Which Side Is God On/JTF
blessed are the peace-makers, for they shall be known as the children of god
(Sat May 30 1998 22:44 - ID#434108)
Adolph Hitler: "Gold is not necessary. I have no interest in gold. We'll build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it. Anyone who sells above the set prices, let him be marched off to a concentration camp. That's the bastion of money."

(Sat May 30 1998 22:47 - ID#186147)
O!Tempora, O!Mores
My usual Saturday scroll of Kitco reveals the continued presence of our Marxist/socialist/liberal contingent. The left can abide just about any thing except FACTS. Fact: People kill people. Sometimes they use guns, sometimes they dont. Nicole and Ron are just as dead as they would've been if OJ had used an AK47. More people were hacked to death with machetes in Rwanda/Uganda in six months recently than have been killed in Europe and North America with personal firearms in 600 years. EJ: It is now 10:45 pm on Saturday nite. Let me drop you off on MLK,JR. BLVD in Daytona beach right now and start walking. I bet that if you survived for 5 blocks, I could sell you one of my Glocks for a tidy profit.: )
(Sat May 30 1998 22:50 - ID#434108)
Gold@ $6.00/oz.
Cong. Henry S. Reuss, U.S. House of Rep., past Chrm., House Banking & Currency Committee: "With gold no longer playing a major role in the international monetary system, its price will sink to its value in the arts -- something much closer to $6.00 an ounce, rather than the current $35.00."

(Sat May 30 1998 22:50 - ID#257148)
Pu'ukanui. My pleasure. Your handle looks Polynesian?

(Sat May 30 1998 22:53 - ID#344308)

in honor of those who......

readers are on dudes....& dudettes.....

who in the world would want some peopleo--gumby---contacting them??? friend beware.....

the truth is best trampled, at the source........

don't tread on me or mine.......

cwwpaalfsfats....and i will.....igtmawtfamfu.....
(Sat May 30 1998 22:53 - ID#434108)
Ludwig von Mises:
"Government is the only agency that can take a useful commodity like paper, slap some ink on it, and make it totally worthless."

(Sat May 30 1998 22:56 - ID#207145)
Barry Goldwater
What you get when you're through peeing. He was't a conservative, but rather a libertarian loud mouth. The liberals on tv love him. But may he rest in peace. He did kick up some dust.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:57 - ID#27341)
Thanks for your reply, your not a betting person it seems,i believe you are closser to the action than me, would have liked you to show your hand.

(Sat May 30 1998 22:57 - ID#344308)

(Sat May 30 1998 22:58 - ID#434108)
Cicero, 'Ancient' Rome:
"The budget should be balanced. The Treasury should be re-filled. The Public Debt should be reduced. The arrogance of officials should be tempered and controlled; and assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest we become bankrupt."

(Sat May 30 1998 23:01 - ID#186147)
goldfever: This Reuss dude used to pitch for the Dodgers, right?

(Sat May 30 1998 23:02 - ID#257148)
In the interests of our better understanding of recent events in Indonesia I post part of an email I received from a friend, a first-hand account of the those days in the past week, this is not a dramatic account of getting caught up in rioting, but rather just about an ordinary person trying to maintain normal routines while destructive forces threaten to shatter them completely, racism is never far away.

I should like to apologise if it is found to be too long, or too far off topic. salamat datang.

Wednesday 13 May

I left home at 7:30 a.m. as usual. I didn't expect anything too unusual to
happen, but I knew that there would be a memorial gathering at 9:00 a.m. at
Trisakdi University to commemorate the 6 students who were shot by the
military the previous day. I don't pass near the University on the way to
my office so I didn't expect to see anything unusual. I drove my car along
the usual route, reached my office, parked the car, and went in. The staff
were talking a little about the possibility of some people taking advantage
of the situation and large crowds expected in Grogol, where the University
is located.

After working for the morning and having lunch, I prepared to cross the road
to go to a nearby company office where I needed to do some work for the
afternoon. Before I left, I heard that people were marching in the Grogol
area and one of my colleagues told me that if anything happened, she would
call me and let me know. I went to the office and started working.

At 3:00 p.m. my colleague called to say that the building security officer
had said that in Grogol the crowds had started to set fire to buildings.
That road was my route home. The officer said that I shouldn't go home
until he could find out more. About 4:00 p.m. my colleague called and asked
me to come back to my office. Inside, nobody was working but they were
watching TV to find out what was happening. ( At that time, the Govt. hadn't
tightened their censorship to prevent people seeing everything that was
happening - that came later. ) .

I wasn't too worried at first because I thought nothing much was happening.
My boss had some extra work for me and I needed to stay on to work late. My
sister called as I had planned to pick her up but her boss had told her to
go home early. She said she would try to go home and then would call me to
tell me the situation. She called about 4:30 to say she had arrived home
safely and hadn't seen any trouble. The only thing she noticed was that the
traffic was heavier than usual for that time. I told her that I would
probably leave about 5:30 and go home the same way. I called my parents and
they said that I shouldn't come home yet because the situation may have changed.

I decided to go home later and so I went to eat dinner at a restaurant in
the same building as my office with 8 of my colleagues. Then we returned to
the office about 7:00 and I called my mother to see if she had heard
anything. She said that she had a friend who had just come from the airport
and who wanted to go home the same way I would go but couldn't get through
because the road was blocked and there was rioting and looting in that area.
All of us waited at the office for news and people called their family and
friends to find out what was happening outside.

About 8:30 or 9:00 p.m., one of my colleagues whose husband was driving to
pick her up called to say that he had seen a department store on the route
we would take was burning. Then we discussed where we could spend the
night. Two staff tried to go home that night, but saw a lot of people
waving sticks trying to attack a bus. After hearing that we decided that we
couldn't go home. We went to a Walmart in our office building to buy some
clothes. The cashiers had gone so we took what we wanted, and asked the
security guard to record what we had bought and we said we would pay the
next day. Then, five of us went to a hotel near the office. 2 of the the
guys checked in and the rest of us sneaked in to the room later.

Thursday 14 May

The next morning, we watched TV to see what was happening. A key
intersection on our route home was still blocked so we couldn't go home. At
8:00 a.m. we decided to take the toll road to a friends house. We passed
the office which was still open with some people coming to work. I heard
later that about 11:00 a.m. a lot of people came and broke into the Walmart
store to take stuff out and then set the whole building on fire. At my
friend's house, we watched TV and listened to the radio ( the radio had more
news than the TV with live reports phoned in from the trouble spots ) . Shops
and houses along the way I planned to go home especially in Chinatown, were
completely burned out in places. My sister called to say that the
supermarket near my house had been completely emptied. Representatives from
the insurance company had negotiated a deal with the looters, offering them
the entire contents of the store provided they didn't burn it down. Another
department store near my house was burned out. I just waited at my friend's
house to see when it would be safe to return home.

Friday 15 May

The next morning, Friday, a colleague who lives near my house called at
7:30 a.m. that she had been able to drive home safely. I decided to drive
home but I didn't feel safe as a Chinese Indonesian friend of mine had been
dragged from his car on the Wednesday and badly beaten and his car burned.
There were also stories of women being raped. I pushed my hair up under a
hat to look like a man and wore dark glasses. I took the tollway which,
being elevated for some of the way and with no side roads, was safer, and
went the long way around. Traffic was very light and when I went off the
tollway, there was no traffic except for 2 vehicles. I saw some burned out
buildings but no crowds of people. I got stuck behind a mini-bus that was
moving slowly but I was afraid to pass in case the driver saw that I was
Chinese and decided to ram my car. I got home safely, and spent the weekend
there. My family and the neighbours talked a lot about leaving the country.
My friend's sister had gone to the airport and hired a soldier to protect
them. The road to the airport was blocked in several places with people
demanding a 'toll' - 1,000 rupiah for non-Chinese Indonesians and 10,000
for Chinese Indonesians.

Sunday 17 May

On Sunday in the afternoon, my boss called to say that there would be a
meeting and that he needed some reports from the office. A friend drove me
to my office but we could not get in because the police were blocking entry.
They were still searching for bodies of people who had died in the fire. So
I went back home.

Monday 18 May

On Monday, I went to the office again, but I still wasn't able to go in, so
we met at a nearby garden restaurant, one of the few buildings which had not
been damaged. It was announced that we would move to a nearby branch office
and work from there. We waited for permission to enter our old office to
salvage our files ( being in a basement, it was not completely destroyed -
mostly water damage from the sprinkler system ) . I felt very nervous and
asked permission to go home. I then went home. Male staff went to the
office and got my computer out but I don't know if they were able to access
my files.

Monday evening, we decided to leave for Singapore. Suharto was refusing to
go and I thought that the demonstrations and the rioting would happen again.
Wednesday was 'National Awakening Day' and apart from the fact that students
were planning mass demonstrations, it was rumoured that some people were
saying that all Chinese would be killed. We also heard stories of taxi
drivers taking Indonesian Chinese customers and when they were dropped off,
refusing to accept any money, saying , "soon you will die so I don't want to
take your money." We didn't know what the situation would be on Wednesday.
My brother-in-law drove us to the airport at 4:30 on Tuesday morning. The
airport was crowded with people lined up at the ticket counters. It was
difficult to walk anywhere. We queued up at the Singapore Airlines counter.
We stood in line for 5 and a half hours before reaching the counter and
buying a standby ticket. The ticket was the usual price, $200, but if you
paid in rupiah, they used a rate of 17,000 rupiah to the dollar. The rate
at that time was between 11,000 and 12,000. We then went to the check-in
counter where we queued for another 4 and a half hours to get a standby
number. 3 hours later our flight was confirmed. 5 hours later, we boarded
a flight to Singapore, 19 hours after arriving at the airport.

(Sat May 30 1998 23:19 - ID#413195)
DNA/Family Studies
The great white beanie-hunter returns, with a pelikan for the mantle.

JTF: Interesting that you would mention this. Have you read about the EurAsia '98 Genetic Odyssey? The BBC covers it here: . It blows me away that this can even be done. It's the stuff of science fiction, and few could have anticipated it even as recently as a few generations ago. I'll bet a lot of fundamentalists are going to be hopping mad when the results are finally in.

On guns: ANYONE who trusts the state enough to surrender the only real means of self-defense he has, does not deserve his freedom, IMO. France just this week passed strict gun control legislation outlawing ALL guns, except those that are in the hands of certified collectors and hunters. And as I posted elsewhere on the net, the U.S. govt should now pass a law strictly forbidding the future commitment of any U.S. troops or aid when next the French people awake to discover the heel of a tyrant pressing down on their throats. If they want to be sheep, let them be sheep. But not ONE DROP of Merkan blood should ever be spilled saving them yet again from their folly. IMHO.

'Das right.

(Sat May 30 1998 23:20 - ID#343259)
Hello All
Been watching here 2 weeks, and have finished "cooling off" period.
This is an amazing place!
I am no trader.
I write trading/accounting software for Oil Traders.
I am convinced Y2K is more than a bump in the road.
I have physical gold and silver for "emergency" use.
Let the "paper gold" roll up or down it matters not to me.
Friend comes to visit tomorrow.
They are 100% in equities. I told them we are 180 degrees apart.
Should be an interesting visit.
I'm learning a lot. Thanks to all of you. ALL of you!

(Sat May 30 1998 23:22 - ID#22956)
Par 4.......18th hole.....154yrds out(168 to the hole)......8 iron......
STIFF! EAGLE! LOVE IT! ( shot an ugly 86 ) ..........ohmy!

I am checking in real see that kitco is on fire!

Auratoragantor is in fine form and loves ALL merkins/merkans...........btw.......the Channel Islands ( to me ) is just offa the California coast.......uh huh. They are *the* ( smile thingy ) Channel Islands.......Catalina being the place to take the babe for some frolic&fun............yes. bask in the glory of his first EVER ( 4 par ) eagle.....................yahooooo!

 it! go gold..........

(Sat May 30 1998 23:25 - ID#27341)
100% in stocks- ouchhhhhhh,its a long way downunder.

dung beetle
(Sat May 30 1998 23:28 - ID#272234)
Y2K Costs Still Underestimated....

(Sat May 30 1998 23:28 - ID#284255)
Email Chatter
Bottomline, the Asian Crisis is AGAIN surprisingly close to turning into a meltdown. That means global central banks will hold their breath, stay accommodative, and not rock the boat. It also means another high - particularly in the blue chips - can't be ruled out. But the technical evidence has taken a decisive turn for the worse over the last few weeks, and will likely deteriorate even faster in the weeks ahead.
ON GOLD: Weakness is entirely selling pressure from Asia. However, barring a full-scale meltdown in those markets, we think gold is nearing an oversold low. Nonetheless, we would still focus only on the established producers. We have no changes to our model portfolios and will maintain our gold stock positions
For the Japanese, is raising interest rates the way out of their predicament? Would such a policy cause a round of competitive rate increases that would ultimately end the bubble in the U. S.? Unlike Americans, the Japanese are large savers so an interest rate increase would raise their national income, stimulate demand, and get their economy going again. Cutting rates hasn't helped over the last 8 years
I am constantly amazed at the astute perceptiveness of InvesTech subscribers - if only politicians had such insights! The major reason the Japanese Central Bank is keeping interest rates at 0.5% is not to bail out the economy... but the over-indebted banks. Once interest rates start upward in Japan, we are likely to see rising consumer ( saver ) confidence, along with increased spending. That could quickly push up interest rates toward 3%... reversing the Japanese inflows in the U.S. bond market... and triggering both a falling Dollar and rising U.S. bond yields ( as in 1987 ) . While this is unlikely to provide the initial pin to Wall Street, it could easily play a major role in preventing the Fed from easing once the unwinding begins
I am interested in speculating on a significant "down-draft" in overvalued stocks by buying out of the money puts that expire in 3 to 5 months. Which stocks or group of stocks in the most overvalued sectors would be the most vulnerable? I very much appreciate your conservative, principal preserving philosophy that is appropriate for most of my investment capital, however, the financial bubble has been even more obvious since I "rebooted my brain" with a week stay on St. Lucia. I can't resist buying just a few Dutch tulip puts!!!
O.K., but remember that bubbles can keep getting bigger in the absence of a "pin." From the ultimate top ( whether or not we have already seen it ) , the sectors with the greatest downside potential are the ones with the highest overvaluation or the biggest stake in the previous financial runup. The most obvious choices are the technology and brokerage sectors - with our preference in the latter. Banks would also be lumped in that group, but are unlikely to fall as much out of the starting gate of a bear market.
In a Reuters article last month, a Japanese Ministry of Finance official, Eisuke Sakakibara, suggested that Japan is ready to convert some of its $200 billion in foreign reserves ( i.e. US Treasury bonds ) to fund foreign exchange intervention. Does that sound like a great big pin pointed at the bubble?
If not Wall Street, it's certainly pointed at the U.S. Dollar. We remain convinced that Japanese monetary policy will play a role in how Wall Street's bubble unwinds. In 1987-89, under pressure from Washington, the Central Bank of Japan kept Japanese interest rates artificially low to support the Dollar. In other words, they sacrificed a pre-emptive opportunity to pop their bubble while still at lower extremes. So don't look for empathy from Japan this time around - especially with American media rubbing Japan's face in their economic quagmire.
My concern and thought is that we may have just experienced a four month stagnation period that correlates to the 1929 March to June period. As the FED begins to officially worry about deflation ( note Greenspan's January 3rd speech ) and considers lowering rates, we may experience the final big blow off fueled by money fleeing crises areas.
This subscriber question is actually an older one from early this year, but more pertinent now than ever. We have indeed seen the IMF and global central banks pump liquidity - only to have that liquidity flow right back into overinflated financial markets in the U.S., Germany, etc. Tough choice for the Fed, and the options just keep getting stickier. One thing they WON'T do now is ease - not as long as the DJIA remains near the 9,000 level.
One concern I have about holding gold stocks comes from a conversation with a gold dealer who read a WSJ article dated just after the 87 crash stating gold stocks were marginally better than the DJIA and slightly worse than the S&P
The story is actually a little more involved. Gold stocks performed admirably on Black Monday as one of the few sectors that closed up on the day of the crash in 1987. Yet over the next few days, these gold stocks underwent their own crash as investor fears turned toward the onset of DEflation. Whether or not gold stocks suffer the same fate in the upcoming bear market will depend on how quickly stock prices plummet ( bad for gold ) , and whether the Dollar is also tumbling ( good for gold ) .
The stock market reaction is unlikely to come from the trade deficit news itself. Instead, watch for a sharp downward reversal in the Dollar later this year, or an upward turn in T-Bond yields above 6% as the first harbinger of trouble. Either would be symptomatic that the chickens are coming home to roost.
This is a comment rather than a question: The man who details my car has sold his truck for $7000 in cash and leased a new $31,000 truck for no money down. By investing the $7000 in growth funds, he is certain to have the funds to buy out the lease at term end. Point 1: There's a lot more leverage at work in this market beyond margin debt and even credit cards and home equity loans. Point 2: Doesn't this remind you of Joe Kennedy's shoe shine boy ( in 1929 ) ?
Sure does! You are correct about the leverage in today's market. In everything from mortgage refinancing to graduates opting not to prepay college loans, consumers are using debt to divert funds into Wall Street. And whether or not it's money they can afford to lose, there will be a big psychological impact when it evaporates. That's why the NEXT recession will start on Wall Street instead of Main Street.
If the consumer confidence graphs in your recent "chart of the week" are hinting that a recession may be coming, won't the Fed then lower rates? Also, how much damage to stocks can a 1/4 pt or ½ pt interest rate INCREASE from the Fed really do? Finally, does the "three steps and stumble" rule still ring true?
In response to your first question, the extreme negative spread in consumer confidence "future expectations minus current conditions" is a clear warning flag of a possible recession next year. It signifies that consumer future expectations are on very fragile ground, and it wouldn't take much of a bump to trigger retrenchment. But remember, recessions are seldom recognized until 6-12 months after they've begun ( even by the Federal Reserve ) ; and by then, the Fed doesn't always have the option of easing.
The "three steps and a stumble" rule relates to the historical precedent that often requires at least 3 tightening moves ( such as an increase in interest rates, reserve requirement, or margin rate ) before the stock market enters a bear. Don't count on such long-leading signals in a market "bubble" where every professional thinks they have one foot in the door. While a ½ percentage point increase in interest rates wouldn't have a major affect on the economy, it could provide the pin for investor confidence.

(Sat May 30 1998 23:33 - ID#254201)
RLM - Gold, E Waves
I don't think gold is going down to 175. My poor handwriting may look that way. The word should have been it's. Once you are in a definate bull or bear market the e-waves are one of the best tools to determine potential market movement. I wouldn't use it by itself but in combination with other tools it can be very accuate. If you're a trader or investor you have to have a plan. Most people are not as successful as they could be because they can't take a loss and they don't know when to take a profit. Before I put on a trade I know my objective and the e wave sometimes helps me find it. If ny projections are right I'm a hero and if I'm wrong you'll find me under a rock.

(Sat May 30 1998 23:33 - ID#22956)
168yrds=160yrds.....(whoops)...(wind right to left)......(uh huh)...
that's it.... the bash.


(Sat May 30 1998 23:40 - ID#43349)
Well. I'm betting they will wait to lomg to do
anything. Which means the markets and the economy
will tank before they do move which means they will
lower rates.

The problem with that scenario is that they have a
bias toward raising rates ( which should have been
done many months ago ) .

Even they themselves can't decide what they want to
do, so I can't make a good guess either.

I will say that in my opinion, if the fed makes any
move in the the next month or two it will be to raise
rates ( stupid as it would be to do so ) . If more than
a couple of more months goes by before they move then
I would bet on them lowering ( which is what I think will
actually happen ) . The only thing that would change
my mind would be if we get a serious market crash
before then.

(Sat May 30 1998 23:49 - ID#202123)
to all--- off the wall post but
I believe that no matter what the PMs should do, they won't. Not because of a conspiracy but because it is good business for all the governments of the world. Fake money rules--- and I mean that, fake money really does take charge over PM.

Can this be stopped---I don't think so. But if something did happen to bring the PMs back to the spotlight, would it be so bad that the gain would be wiped out. Such as what we knew previously or even today

I have been buying gold and silver ( and selling ) since the late 70s and early 80s and I don't think I want to see what happens now if the price spikes and doesn't fall back.

You know, either way, I lose.

(Sat May 30 1998 23:52 - ID#26467)
Turning points
FWIW Price action of Platinum shows that we could see gold making an intermediate low in the week of June 21/25 ,instead of a high, to be followed with a relief rally for a week and to go down until July 30.I wouldn't be surprised to see 256.A minor relief rally Monday/ Tuesday would see possibly 300 if not than we are going down hard into the rest of the week.Wild weeks indeed to follow.
Wheat and corn will make their lows in July as well.
The world markets are looking in the abyss of deflation.
Have profitable trading in the coming week .
"The surest way to go broke is to sit around waiting for a break"

(Sat May 30 1998 23:54 - ID#27341)
GREAT STUFF, with you all the way, MANY THANKS AGAIN.