Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:10 - ID#45173)
@ERLE: I'm not able to make short-term calls on gold
I am long on gold, based on long trends in financial markets rather than short trends in gold markets. I can think of a hundred reasons why gold will go up and down over the next year, but I can't think of one reason why gold will not go up over the next two years as financial markets loose confidence in equities, bonds, and currencies during a period of chaotic change. When things settle out again, I'm back in the stock market where there's money to be made rather than merely preserved. This may not be for a long time, until the pain that many are going to suffer in the coming years is forgotten.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:13 - ID#219363)
Looks like losses all around, 1, 2, 3, even 4+ percent. China and the Phillipines up slightly.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:14 - ID#411112)
The new buzz word the real world selling is one thing getting the cash

is called REDEMPTION I have ready many times
from lots of sources that Mutual Fund
Companys have 2-4% cash on hand to meet
REDEMPTIONS......and this is pure rumour but
a number of banks in the Boston area report
that the FED has been moving large amounts of
cash into area depositorys morning I
will have names of Banks and
someone planning for a run on the banks?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:17 - ID#31867)
cross bow, Namaste' a gulp to ya...
It the tequila gods had wanted all that stuff in it the Blue Agave would already contain it...besides, I can barely get the bottle open let alone deal with the rest of that stuff...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:20 - ID#31867)
Every single media show I see from the big three, Nightline, Politically Incorrect
all deal with Clintler and Starr only in context of Monica...she is nothing more than a bug that got crushed on the windshield in the Mena to Our House/White House and the criminal activities of Clintler...

This whole thing stinks through and through...

PH in LA
(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:21 - ID#225408)
Please forgive me if I do not take the time necessary to reply adequately to your post. I, myself, have even more important commitments than "softball games" to attend to. However, yes I do feel called upon to exert some "policing" action here in the interest of fairness and to keep the forum open to other opinions than your own. You ( and LGB ) have often trumpeted your contempt for the "losing" investment of gold. I myself own gold that I purchased at around $300/oz. This does not seem a losing proposition to me in any sense. I still have the gold and don't really care if it has gone down $10 or $11 since I bought it. It will probably nefver be worthless, or are investors in gold wrong on that, too? I won't sell it until it goes higher. I am sure I could have lost much more in stocks, or fast cars, or? if that had been my purpose.

I, personally do not care if F* insulted you by saying horrible things to you. Nor do I care if he insulted me. I do not know the man. He does not know who I am. You don't either. Neither of you can say anything that insults me.

I really only care about his ( and your ) ideas. If the ideas insult my intelligence ( and that of others here ) then I am concerned. You claim not to have ever addressed ANOTHER. Do I have to delve into the archives to find how often you refered to him as a "fraud"? Or did you merely support LGB on that one? I do recall that you mimiced him, parodied him, and that he himself felt that you had maligned him. If you insist, I will look up the exact posts, though I would rather devote myself to more interesting pursuits.

What disturbs me most about your attitude on this subject is how you feel that your point of view is the only possible one. That ANOTHER has already been proven wrong and that you have been proven right. That gold has done exactly what you said it would do...blah, blah, blah as if you had caused it all to happen. The fact that it has not yet done what ANOTHER says it will do does not mean that it won't. And your saying that it won't doesn't make it so, either.

I am very grateful for your "fatherly" offer to throw around some numbers. I love numbers, too. Especially how they can be made to prove anything they are called upon to prove. Very handy. Unfortunately, they are just as easy to misunderstand... as you have so conveniently done with mine. Go back and reread my post to see what I was talking about before you try to overwhelm us again with arithmetric ( with or without your calculator ) . All your numbers have completely failed to address my point.

Your comment about "a Saudi prince whose English...lacked verisamilitude" demonstrates the shallowness of your comprehension of his story. There are many here who could explain it to you better than I. I will leave it to them and hope that your understanding can be broadened.

I am sorry that anyone insulted you. But you are a grown man, able to take care of yourself. I do not seek to interfere in any way in your treatment of any poster. What I do take exception to is some of your ideas and concepts. And I take further exception to your conclusion that ANOTHER's vision has already been disproven. "We watch this market together, yes?" Forgive me for probing your motives as I have done. It is difficult for me to believe that a grown man can be so "insulted" by a madman. I read more into your reaction than that.

And believe it or not, some among us are interested in what might happen even farther out than your 90-day eternity. In fact, some would call that a mere eyeblink.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:29 - ID#31867)
Some interesting thoughts...
ENDURING WORDS He therefore is the truest friend to the liberty
of his country who tries most to promote its
virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence
extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen into
any office of power and trust who is not a wise
and virtuous man...The sum of all is, if we would
most truly enjoy this gift of Heaven, let us
become a virtuous people --Samuel Adams

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:31 - ID#25196)
Aussie market down 57pts
Normandy down 2 cents,Newcrest down 3 cents,Lihir up 8 cents with its co shareholder Nuigini Mining up 20 cents.With Vengold buying a further stake and the gold price up this has helped these 2 stocks.And the game is not over yet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:38 - ID#219363)
Re: your 00:14

Now that was a scary post.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:40 - ID#105111)
What do you think of idea that Monica-gate is a Clinton ploy to distract the public from his true crimes? Face it, his receipt of gulps from Monica is not a crime ( see p.s. below ) , it is mostly betrayal of Hillary. Possibly charge of suborning perjury could be made to stick, but most Americans don't care much about that, feeling that they, too, lie about their sex lives.

I hope that Starr's delay of a report to Congress doesn't mean that Monica is all he's got. If he has to wait until Monica proves she had sex with the prez before he has a case to put before Congress .. then he has no case at all. Too bad, cuz that means Clinton has gotten away with some outrageous abuses of power.

It is those abuses of power that he should be punished for, not poaching a White House intern.

p.s. Sex with Monica IS a crime from the "subordinate staff is off limits to the boss" point of view, but there is no law about consensual sex with a subordinate, unless you are in the military or a Republican before a Democrat-controlled congressional committee.

p.p.s. Not sure what all the lists of stuff were about, but I note absence of critical element in list of survival equipment I saw on Kitco tonite: BOOKS!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:43 - ID#31867)
and its 1..2..3..what are we fightin for...don't ask me I don't give a damn,.lets keep
talking about Clintler slammin his this link good grief...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:45 - ID#31867)
here is the link from below if you are not in full text mode

Spud Master
(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:47 - ID#288235)
"lusting after ML?"

oh, gag. barf.

Elsie the cow would be more desirable - and lot less likely to have a STD post-Bill encounters. On the otherhand, Tolerant1 warns that CamdamndissUS might have already dispoiled Elsie as well.

Spud, radiation goggles on, fifteen miles from the DOW Aug 5th Ground Zero.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:49 - ID#39851)
G'day guys from Jabiluka
I tell you what, I really miss you guys. Anyone willing to call
that WW bottom yet. Are you there JTF. I think we should have
a head to head.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:51 - ID#31867)
SlingShot, Namaste' gulp to ya...There is no question that Starr is going to deliver
a scathing 300 page report on Clintler...Monica is an addendum...the bulk of the report will deal with criminal activities starting in Mena and culminating in the expansion of the crimes right up and into the White House. There is no question that the mainstream media is not covering this properly and the spin is easily seen.

This is not about impeaching Clintler based on Monica, but rather criminal activities and treason...plain and simple...she is merely a bug on the windshield and only serves the continuity which is the point that Starr is bringing home within the context of Clintler lying from the getgo...she is merely one piece of chipped ice in the ice bucket but the champagne will be the 300 pages of crimes and treason.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:52 - ID#105111)
good link. yet another illustration that Clinton is imcompetent at the job of being president of U.S.

..... yet his approval rating is 60%!!! Either U.S. citizens are largely incapable of rational thought, or polls that reach this conclusion have heavily skewed questions.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:54 - ID#411112) 2c...the real crimes are the ones Janet Reno does not want appoint an IC for


(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:55 - ID#31867)
Spud Master, Namaste' I may never drink milk again...aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
SlingShot, Namaste' Have you ever met anyone who has been polled? No jokes...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:56 - ID#31867)
HedgeHog, Namaste' and a gulp of Patron tequila to ya...
I think JTF hit the hay...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 00:59 - ID#31867)
all...from Mena forward...lets start in Arkansas...pure fact...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:01 - ID#219363)
Ooooo, Nikkei is pulling back up from it's low today, must be the beginning of a bull market.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:05 - ID#31867)
Go ahead and have some fun with these...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:05 - ID#219363)
Actually, that would have been a little funnier if the Gold graph didn't look almost exactly like a graph of the Nikkei.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:09 - ID#280214)
Slingshot - fear not. But how does one put a value on BOOKS?
I have a few hundred linear feet of BOOKS!
I shall acquire more as I can.
I plan on spending much of the first winter reading.
One that Promey shared with me - The Great Wave, then
Toqueville's two volumes and The Complete Works of Aristotle
and lots and lots and lots of science fiction -
everything Heinlein wrote that I can get my hands on.
And a 1950's set of Britannica - stuff they won't print anymore.
And my old college books - maybe I'll learn calculus this time!

I'll be sure to check on the roofs of the local libraries.
and do what I can for their windows and doors
to protect the treasures therein.
I may even move in there if it gets bad.
For if things really start to slide into the dark ages
the contents therein may be worth far more than a bag of Gold!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:18 - ID#39851)
tolerant1 thanks, and a Darwin stubby to you my friend
Lihir is certainly lookin the goods at this stage even though
its early days. Hows my benchmark going, thats John Disneys
Harmony. If you are there John g'day mate. Tolerant1 ever been
to NT Aus. Man it is hot. The inside from the insider is this.
Divest immediately in North Ltd and ERA. La Nina is going to hit
early and bigtime. The wet is going to be wetter. ERA are in the
process of building the mine to get at the 2nd largest Uranium
deposit in the world. This baby is going to be an underground
mine. Construction of the portal HAS NOT BEGUN! The
good work done has held up progress on this mine. The Mirrar
will win in keeping thier land untouched. The lease is in
Kakadu and this National Park is listed as World Heritage.
It is 1 of only 13 world wide also listed for cultural
significance. What does World Heritage mean if it is able to be
mined. UNESCO will be here early September. We are preparing a
submission and anyone out there who would like to help could go
to the web page. No address. Just search Jabiluka.
Love to you all. May Kitcoites change our world for a better one.
Oh yeh, and Gonzo opens his hand to say stop the madness.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:19 - ID#105111)
I was myself polled by the Democratic party not too long ago. They wanted me to help them "win back the Congress" in 1998 by telling them my views .... whoo boy. I sure did have a good time with those pollsters, let me tell you. It was ENTIRELY possible to tell them what I really thought, the way they did this one. So I did.

Twas great fun.

As to how I got on their list ..... I joined HCI ( Handgun Control Incorporated ) , for $5. ( !!!! ) My objective was to keep track of what the "enemy" was up to. Feeling strongly that an armed citizenry is essential to freedom, I wanted to get a feel for these guys were saying and doing. I figured I'd pay 'em to tell me. Joining placed no obligation on me to vote in any particular way or send any letters to my Congressman, it just got me access I thought might be useful. I've had some fun with them, too.

Anyway, not long after I "joined" HCI, I started getting begging letters from every liberal organization you could think of. Those bastards sold my name-and-address!! The NRA never did THAT to me. Beware fellow Kitco-ites.

So the Democratic party assumed that I was a true liberal and "surveyed" my opinion. Hey ROR! I'm a plant! You've probably met me at a cell meeting and didn't even know it was ole SlingShot.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:22 - ID#411259)
.... How would you feel if there were NO kitco? .....

PH in LA -

Think of what you wrote. I work for the largest bullion dealer in the world. If gold soars, my firm, myself, and all my colleagues make a fortune. Understand that when silver moves, people call, when PGMs move less people call, when gold moves, everybody calls. Nothing would make me happier than to see $800 gold. I could retire before 40. This sinister motives you assign me not only have no basis in reality, but dont even make sense.

Also, you try to paint me with a particular ideology concerning metals. You got the wrong guy, F spot is the blind master of the I dont care school. Who has been accurate? ALL.. Please let me repeat that ALL you people that said the big gold bull was right around the corner were wrong. Everybody. But you are angry at me? Im the guy who warned you all. Not with calls of 3-2-5, but with details about further CB sales and leasing. I told the folks here that Germany was selling six months before the rest of the world knew it. Why are you mad at me?

I did not make the POG go down. It moves without my approval. When the market turns bullish, I will be buying gold hand over fist. Will I be a hero to you all then?

And no more defense of F spot. It is a waste I K1 bandwidth. If people believe that F spot and I have a problem because of market views, than you havent a clue.

F spot started it, and prosecuted this animus with barely controlled glee.

If you put up with that crap, and now yell at me, you cease to exist and I have no use for you for ever more. Join the ranks of Henry D who only criticize people who dont think gold is just the best thing ever. You will make fine bedmates.

Post your defenses of the F stain. But lay off me.

If everybody could understand that if this continues, there will be no Kitco Forum. Think about it. I know that certain advertisers who will not share the page with the F worm. Companies dont like to advertise on sites with racial hatred. They will run away from this in a heartbeat. These advertisers read the F bump's words on 6/29/98 and said, "why would we ever advertise here? We want no part of this." Perhaps some of you could give the Royal Canadian Mint a call and ask how they feel about the F gerbil.

Farfel could well kill Kitco, and will indeedy if you continue to encourage him. So thank F spot for costing Bart thousands every month and probably many thousands more per month. If this keeps up he will close the discussion group. If it don't pay, why put up with all of us?

If you doubt me, ask him.

Bart? True, yes?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:25 - ID#267298)
Maybe Off The Wall, But
1 ) Clinton says he will not address the American public before his testimony.
2 ) Clinton says he may address the American public after his testimony.

My read on these statements:

1 ) Most everyone knows Clinton is a liar and if something should surface between now and the 16th that made him think it was politically to his advantage to address the public he would, once again proving that he is a liar.

2 ) If the man truely knows that he is innocent of all allegations then he also knows that after giving testimony Starr will look the idiot and it would be to his political advantage to say nothing, so why would he even suggest doing so ?

Methinks these comments alone will drive drive the DOW farther south.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:25 - ID#31867)
HedgeHog, Namaste' No I have not, someday, someday, gulp to ya...
SlingShot, Namaste', to this day I have never, not once...gulp to ya...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:29 - ID#335379)
Banks may get a bad case of the runs..........and CIC coments,=Robnoel, Tol one,
Hello Robnoel_A, and good evening all:
While I have no source to tout, I to have heard of cash showing up in quantity in local easy to get to stashes. As I recall some one here posted that a bank employee friend stated that stashes of cashes were being brought local for just this purpose.
IMO the timing for this seems odd, to ealy for Y2k, hmmmmm......
If the chief scalywag gets fried many things will have the runs.
Robnoel_A is your name a psudonym for the Grinch? Please take no offense as none is intended....
Tolerent one, good evening, I to have waited long and hard for the Commie en chief
to get a 50 year vacation at club fed but find that to my exsasperation that he is like a Hoodini. One of the biggest treason crimes trying to be covered up is the appointment of Janet Reno in the first place. I have been visiting with my Aunt for over a week now, we are both extremely appalled by der fuhr and her husband, the biggest insult to the presedency of the USA. We oft go round and round trying to figure out what he has done and how he has gotten away with it. We also are of the mind that he finds convenience in the scandals to cover the real dirt.
IT was said on another forum that it wouldn't matter if they found a whole train load of convicting evidence against them, he would still slip through: (
Stay true, go gold, trust that truth always emerges..
Nicodemus, astounded at what passes for the truth!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:31 - ID#424394)
Envy - 3OK may be low - Squirrel doesn't want Reno sniffin' around
Gosh - an AR15 would set you back at least a grand.
add various kits, conversions, bells, whistles and spare parts.
DON'T forget the spare parts!
A varmit gun - like 22's ( smooth and quiet )
Gotta have at least one 30-06 fer Elk.
And something in between - maybe a .243 fer deer
And various shotguns - fer rabbits & squirrels };- ) )
20gauge for the littleuns up to 10gauge for the biguns.
A snubnose to carry while goin' out back to the 2-holer.
A 44 fer Grizzlies that get too close. };- )
And a 9 or 10mm for in between work.
And a reasonable amount of ammo in various loads for each.
And reloadin' equipment and supplies.
This all is really normal gear for a workin' farm.
And anybody walkin' in the woods unarmed after Y2K is stupid!
I think we blew the 30K budget already.
And we ain't even gotten to the good stuff we can't have.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:31 - ID#31867)
DBog, Namaste' gulp to ya...and good points...the way I read it is that Clintler knows
that this is not just about Monica...once in front of the Grand Jury he is open to it all...he will not know what the exact specific Starr is looking a whole new meaning to the term thin ice...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:32 - ID#105111)
Your post warmed my heart muchly, and explained the absence of books from the lists I saw ( I am completely unaware of what they were about, but they seemed to be survival equipment lists ) . As you said, how do you value them? Bet you and I and other Kitco-ites would put a higher $ figure on books than most.

I am short only one Heinlein book in my collection, Number of the Beast, which I refuse to read let alone own. Someday perhaps we could burn up K1 bandwidth on listing "must have" books.

A few months ago I was overcome by an urge to buy a sword, and indulged it. I also removed myself from the stock market, just had that uneasy feeling that it was probably time. Right at the moment I don't regret either decision.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:36 - ID#31867)
Nicodemus, Namaste' and a gulp to ya...truth...what a concept...hope you had a
good time visiting with your Aunt...a Grand Jury is nothing to scoff at...Clintler is worried and should be... And with that...I am toast...and a good morning, afternoon and evening to all


(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:39 - ID#153111)
A different way to look at the Dow.
I don't know when or how far the market will go down, but I think this bull is getting very old and tired. I just looked at a table I got from Barron's a few years back giving values on the DJIA and some variables such as P/E and book values. Back in the 20's and 30's data is slim to none so I can't give any information as far as what happened from Oct 29 to July 32 ( the period of the crash ) . This table did give dividend yield for 1931 though: 10.78%. This is a raising of the Dow dividend from 5.13% in 1929 to 10% in 1931. If a similar a similar raising in dividend yield should occur now with our Dow now yielding 1.63% what would happen?

With a Dividend payout for the DJIA of $146.73, if the yield was to increase to 10% that would
mean a Dow of 1467 or a drop of 85%. Ouch! This is assuming that the Dow can doesn't cut its dividends as companies a like to do when stressed.

As far as P\E's go during the bad years like 1974 or 1980-82 the P\E ratios are usually single digit between 7 and 10. As the close of last Friday ( a long time a go ) now had a P\E for the Dow of 22.9 with earning on the Dow of $391.76. Take those earning of $391.76 and multiply it by the P/E of 1974: 6.2 and we have a Dow of 2428, a drop of some 75%. That is assuming that the big blue chips can keep those earnings, a big assumption if you ask me. Not many people looking at the Dow like this as for now, they may in the future.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:41 - ID#252127)
RE.....ANOTHER was a gentleman

I do not find fault nor agree with ANOTHER's high ball gold projections, but respect him for taking the time to present his ideas, ideas that were much more than just high prices.

In view of what the DOW is today, or what it sold for during the time that he posted on K1, anything seems possible. I say possible, but possible is not always fact.

I cannot see how any poster influences someone to make a gold investment. If a new lurker comes over to a gold site, one has to consider he is probably concerned about the stock market, the over valued dollar or just the world going to hell with itself.

Some new posters even come to fling darts at the many varied ideas presented here. If they have substance, most here take heed.

A new poster may have already seen a positive risk reward in the precious metals, but many regular posters here warn about possible mining hoaxes, or companies with poor financials.

Nothing is certain, investing is bot easy, we all have to make our own decisions and hope for the best after doing our homework.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:42 - ID#280214)
Mountain Goat & JTF - the next million
For more farm and farm buildings.
I have my eye set on a nice defensible hilltop site
But the feller who owns develops condovilles & suburbias.
He hasn't ruined it yet.
It is rumored he would want at least a million for the place!
More likely TWO or THREE MILLION!!
I'd love to set up John Galts operation up there.
Put in a few cabins and a cave or two for my friends.
But I am about $1,995,000 short - at least!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:45 - ID#242303)
Why this on going hatred for Clinton
Is he worse than Nixon? Have his friends made more money than Reagan's? Was he at the CIA when some of it's dirtiest drug deals were done, ( Like Bush ) ? Is he dumber than Ford?

All the above are 'good guys' on the forum. I have no time for his slimey slithering ways to get out of his philanderings. It takes an idiot who is at the top with nowhere to go but down to repeatedly risk it for a quick j.o. But that's no worse than JFK.

History may be more favorible to him than we are and polls show again and again that the US public like him and are willing to forgive whatever he did. This is well into the second term!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:47 - ID#267298)
tolerant1 Namaste' and gulp (beer) to ya too
I think ( Hope ) a lot of people have underestimated Starr.

He gives Monia and her Mom immunity.

He gives Clinton a deal, videotape, his lawyers present and all.

He does this to come out looking the Asshole, I don't think so.

I think Clinton has painted himself into a corner and has run out of thinners.

Go Gold

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:47 - ID#285392)
swpi re purchas of gold and silver coins
The main bank that sells Gold and other PM's is the Bank of Nova Scotia. Have your friend call the precious metals dept. and they will provide all of the information on GST, PST. He should also have a reason for purchasing small coins because they are excessively expensive due to high premiums on smaller denominations, shipping, insurance and many other little add ons. If he is thinking that the world is heading for catastrophe the question must be asked where will he sell the gold to purchase articles. The govt. will have control of setting the prices and whether or not they will purchase the commodity. The general public would not know a gold coin if they saw one and even the smallest coin would be worth a ton of food if conditions were that bad. Bulk silver coins in small denominations, .10 cent ones and quarters that are pre 1967 were 80% silver and in extreme conditions would serve as money for barter of goods. Banks will only redeem silver at face value. If he wants gold for the sake of holding gold, bullion is the cheapest. RJ at the Monex site ( and here ) is very knowledgeable and could give great advice along with Robnoel and Vronsky at golden eagle. Good luck

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:50 - ID#105111)
I still think you should have bought a sword when I told you too ... but you never take my advice ( well, once, but that was a long time ago ) .

All that 401K money is a big part of what has pumped up the market. Part of the lack of availability of choices in 401Ks ( stock fund or cash is usually about it ) is market ... people want stocks, so that is what the finance companies make available to their 401K clients. Part of it is that 401Ks are administered by the industries that benefit ( somewhat ) from a liquid stock market .. why would they want to give thier employees an opportunity to invest in PMs? I can't even find a PM FUND in the choices for my 401K. End result is that tax policy has funneled worker funds into stock market ... pumping it up, big time. Then herd behaviour sets in ( looky, stocks are going up! ) and it gets pumped up even more. The professionals are out already. It's Joe six pack and his brethren that are exposed right now, and they are fixin' to buy the big one.

To save the bull, pass laws to put Social Security funds into stock market NOW. Then stand back, cause when it blows, it will really blow.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:50 - ID#267298)
tolerant1 Namaste' gulp (more beer)
Monica not Monia

and by thinners I mean that stuff that gets rid of paint.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:52 - ID#153111)
Squirrel and the Great Wave
Hey Squirrel: the Great Wave is written by a honest to God communist! I read that book a year a go and was very impressed with it until he started to write about the early 19th century, he became obsessed with price controls and controlling the peasants. I was so impressed with the book I wrote a letter to him which I will now share with my fellow Kitcoites.

Oxford University Press
196 Madison Ave.
New York, New York 10016
Letter to David Hackett Fischer

Ref: The Great Wave

Dear Mr Fischer

I read your wonderful book "The Great Wave" and was duly impressed with it until the beginning of the 20th century, I noted that you seemed to have developed an extreme western chauvinist view of the world after Queen Victoria's Jubilee.

I'm not an historian but it can not be denied that significant events occurred in the third world during the 20th century. You made no relative comments about the Soviet Union, Peoples Republic of China or other progressive movements of this century that effected the vast majority of the worlds population. To your credit you did give credit where credit was due for price controls to the likes of Churchill and even Nixon but how could you not do your duty and make note of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and other great leaders of the era? Progressive policies, including price controls, have been in practice for over 70 years and their benefits to the body economic have been most remarkable. I just don't understand why you felt the need to devote more effort to show how western society was impacted by the example of the underlying price structure of candy bars, than how socialist policies impacted Soviet agriculture of 1930-39 or other examples to numerous mention.

All and all your book was wonderful, I'm looking forward to your next publication, keep up the good work.

N P. Lunden

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:53 - ID#219363)
It's a myth - the "stuff you can't have", well, it turns out that it's not only legal ( after you do a few completely legal moves ) , but cheap and relatively easy to get at. I've actually spent a little bit of time checking into all the subtle aspects of ownership and it's not that big a'deal. Don't get me wrong, you won't be walking around with a stinger missile on your shoulder, but anybody in America can own a light assault weapon, sub-machine gun, etc. And you'd probably be surprised how cheap things like that are to get hold of.

You would probably also be surprised how many corporations purchase high-end weapons as investments and as, well, let's just say they keep them in the back room for dark days.

And before anybody starts thinking I'm a fruit, no, I don't own any automatic weapons, but I do agree with ownership.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 01:56 - ID#105111)
Hostility to Clinton on an essentially libertarian forum confuses you?

LBJ gets my vote for worst president in history ( enriched his family on VietNam war while American youth bled for nothing ) , but Clinton's abuse of power offends most I know who have studied and cherish this country's traditions of liberty.

Ford was better president than he gets credit for. As a true Libertarian I can agree with you on Reagan and Bush, too, but LBJ is number one jerk with Clinton a close 2nd. Nixon is 3rd but I'll argue about putting either Reagan or Bush into number 4.

IMHO, of course.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:01 - ID#153111)
What is mighter the sword or the sling shot?
Hey Sling Shot I'm not getting no sword, I might poke out my eye with it

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:03 - ID#105111)
Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs)
Before any of my fellow gun nuts go recommending that a fellow Kitco-ite goes and gets himself an FFL so he can order guns by mail ( an easy way to get access to guns ) , please remember y'all that owning an FFL gives the BATF the right to search the sales venue any time they want, without a warrant of any kind. No judicial oversite, guys, they just show up and search. If you are not a gun store owner, that means your home! Bye-bye 4th amendment.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:04 - ID#153111)
Signing off
Signing off for the night to go read a book for awhile.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:05 - ID#280214)
Slingshot - Thank You
Perhaps I should lay in a supply of heavy plastic for windows.
Both for my own and for the librarys' and for covering up stuff
like books, and food and people when the roofs start to leak.

I forgot to include a good stock of books on survival, foraging
back to the land skills, herbs, medicine, farming, butchering,
canning, wildlife, hunting, fishing, guerilla warfare, hiding out,
carpentry, masonry, auto mechanics, and general repair,
and all sorts of other skills and practical knowledge.
"The Encyclopedia of Country Living" is an all around must have
especially for those of us who don't have recent farm experience.
A few sources of preparedness books:
The first one takes a while to load the autumn leaf border

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:10 - ID#105111)
It's just survival equipment, with a significant advantage:

You don't ever run out of ammo.

I can condone the ownership of guns ( I've made it a point for years to live within walking distance of a gun store or two ) , but eventually you do run out of ammo.

A bow works, too, and so does a sling. There's a lot to be said for a Colt Pyton, though. I'll give you that.

I recommend a mattock over a small "camp" shovel, though, if you have to dig a hole.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:13 - ID#219363)
I swear I'm not recommending *grin*, I'm just informing.

My understanding of it is that though individuals can't own such weapons, corporations can w/o losing any search and seizure rights what-so-ever.

Here's some info, again, not recommending it ...

"Another solution is to be incorporated. If you are a professional and are already incorporated for your job ( doctor, lawyer ) your corporation can buy NFA weapons, and the photo, police signoff and fingerprints are not needed. Just a Form 4. The corporation might be buying weapons for an investment, or for security, or for another good reason. You could incorporate yourself just to get NFA weapons also, although you should talk to a lawyer or another knowledgeable person about the downsides of being incorporated before just doing it. As the weapons are registered to the company, and not the owner of the company, they will have to be transferred out, tax paid ( unless they are going to a government entity ) , if the corporation is ever dissolved. As corporate assets, creditors might get them in the event of bankruptcy of the corporation, or a judgment against the corporation. In my opinion the best thing is to have the weapons owned and registered to the person who actually owns them, and not an intermediary. I also am aware that in some areas of the country the incorporation route may be the only way to own NFA weapons, as a practical matter."

And if you're interested ( regardless of the above ) in what it takes to incorporate a business, etc, here's a nifty site.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:16 - ID#280214)
MJPL - it is too bad great history books
lose perspective and go downhill the closer they get to the present.
I have also run across a few which are obvious revisionist rewrites.
I must acquire "Tragedy and Hope" - I started with the first chapters
and then read the last chapters since I was pressed for time.
He tried very hard to keep the perspective on an even keel.
I respect that. I look forward to reading the whole thing -
maybe by daylight while Y2K burns itself out.

Which reminds me - I must get some spare reading glasses.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:16 - ID#105111)
Though I don't have the entire FoxFire series, there is some good rural wisdom to be found therein. Some of the older Scout books ( especially the Field Guide ) are worth having, too.

Sorry, but I, too, must post some Z's. Gotta go, but I have enjoyed the exchanges, gentlemen.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:24 - ID#210235)
@Dow slumping on old news? Not!
Had a chance to read the news today. Whee haw! Amazing that the pundits are citing Asia and lower S&P returns ( old news ) as the raison d'etre for today's 300 point Dow slump. And as Studio.r pointed out, a real bear is in progress with 52-week lows at 500, the worst level in 15 years compared to a dozen or so new 52-week highs. All this on redigested old news? Or news the major media refuses to repeat? Here's what I found being carried by Drudge, the New York Post and another source:

A case is being put together of Clinton as misogynist that will have his staunchest supporters weeping and gnashing their teeth. Just what the media will love best, victims. Alas, the evil perp was billy boy.

Here's an expanded version of what we may well see. Why not? I saw Gennifer Flowers on Larry King Live and heard the Clinton tape. It was very clear, definate instruction on avoiding discovery during an investigation of her receiving an Arkansas government job for which she was not qualified on his order. This stuff is really hot. What if the case against Clinton is that he and his men threaten and frightened the women in his life? Oh my. Coming soon. The markets have seen and responded.

Now I've been following the news on WJC closely and some of these allegations hadn't made it to the surface before. Think 1972 when you consider this market from today forward. It will be really interesting to see if the PPT can overcome this one. The VRWC site, Free Republic had so many visitors today it was impossible to log on for long periods, rather like Kitco when gold surges.

Speaking of which, ain't it about time? Confidence in the USD is waning, the Deutchmark made a major move today, and we're likely to see weakness in the USD for a bit. This should translate into better metals prices. Oil, too. And about time.

Hey Studio.r - I've gone off to see Montana. sigh. Hard to leave. Very hard to leave.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:26 - ID#190411)
I'm partial to a sabre. Lighter to handle, and far better if your'e mounted. --horse, not NZ

Occaisionally you can find books cheaply when yuppies move. They like to fill the empty shelves in the houses that they buy. I've gotten some super deals on them. 1822 perfect condition "Paradise lost". for half a buck. They're so dumb that they didn't see the sales slip in the book -dated 1940 for 75.00. Many more, just keep looking-- no time.
typos courtesy of bad keyboard.
Gold leaf on leather to you.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:28 - ID#255284)
....A farewell to arms.....Kamate//Kamate//
Pardon my intrusion on the kitco gun-sight.
It is just that any new lurkers may be forgiven for thinking all goldbugs are armed and dangerous. This is a relatively new trend in posting. But it does lend an interest frisson of danger to an otherwise humdrum flat-lining gold price. Some of you guys scare the shite out of me.

I've not seen that filum, sounds like you're getting satellite feed from a time warp..Lana Turner and the Maoris? WOw! BTW for all you odd character people, try a macron on the 'a' in Maori. Here is a strange site that includes a translation of the All Blacks' Haka.

It is said in WWI when the Maori battallion first went into battle against the Germans, they performed a haka on top of the trenches. The sight of a hundred tattooed faces and protruding tongues together with the blood-chilling sound of the Haka battle-cry, caused the germans to run, to flee their positions.

Yeah, we all play lots of rugby.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:28 - ID#252127)
My truths, and I ain't no democrat

If you like gold, you have to bring out the folly of fiat money, the FRS, the IMF, the strong currency-weak currency cycles that support the international fiat system. This will go on so long as we are dumb enough to pay the cost of supporting THEM.

The Clinton affairs are smokescreens, to keep our minds off what is really occuring and being generated by the above entities and the phenomina that they create

The rise and the probable fall of the stock markets will be associated with this administration while we will all be fleeced by THEM and those selected by THEM to correct their ( not your ) system.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:28 - ID#210235)
Hi! Hundreds of linear feet of books. Yes. Goldbugs know value when they see it.

The beauty of The Great Wave is not analysis, as has been thoroughly discussed in past months on Kitco, but the raw data, translated into SILVER bullion value over the millenium. And the patterns. Oh my, such patterns.

A l toast to your health, my friend. Thank you for your continued efforts to smooth the ride to Y2K for our Kitco allies.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:30 - ID#280214)
Slingshot - The Foxfire series are classics
I got Foxfire 1 thru 9 on a clearance sale.
I need 10 and Foxfire Christmas yet.
#10 covers the Depression Years and may be enlightening.

I found this series not easy to read when one is pressed for time.
I have a tendency now to be impatient with rambling books and for
now I tend to gravitate to the "what do I need to set aside now" books.
Rather than jumping to the how-to sections, one should savor the stories.
Perhaps after Y2K, the world will slow down enough for me to do so.

That is one of the reasons I read apocalyptic science fiction.
The authors entertain, let me escape, and drop in tidbits of
things to prepare for - such as supplies one wished one had put by.
I am now reading "Eternity Road" for those reasons.
G'nite all.
And may Gold bless us in the morning - Silver too!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:34 - ID#255284)
In one survival book, Lucifer's Hammer, I think it was By Larry Niven, the hero was a weakling like auracious, his mode of survival was to collect a brilliant library of HOW TO books, When catastrophe struck, in the form of an incoming meteor, our hero vacuum-packed his entire library and stored it in a concrete water tank. All except for one book "How Things Work Volume I" This was his ticket to independence once he found a group he could belong to who would recognise the value of just one book. He could lead them to KNOWLEDGE.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:42 - ID#219363)
Before being cast ...
As a gun-nut, I'm NOT. *grin*. I just like knowing about stuff. I'm full of useless trivia like that and love to share because I think everyone is as interested as I am. I could have just as easily given you prices for your own personal island in the south pacific, talked about the encryption protocol being used by Digicash for it's transfer mechanisms, shared my experiences of Paestum in Italy, or sat and talked about skydiving experiences. Guns just happen to come up in conversation. *smile*

So how about poetry instead-

Come away O human child
To the waters and the wild
With a faerie hand-in-hand
For the world's more full of weeping
Than you can understand

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:48 - ID#424394)
Aurator, I don't mean to scare you friendly littler fellers.
But I betcha your rugby team does!
Do you play with painted faces?

P.S. How goes the operation of minting your own Golden money?
A blast from the past...
"The more I think about it, the more logical it is to form and independant free state populated by the freemen of kitco in noo zilundd?
No country on earth will manage to invade noo zilund. The Maori know that, and so do the pakeha.
The NZ Reserve Bank hold less gold than aurator
I am thinking of issuing my own currency.

P.P.S. Having an extra gun for a friend in time of need.
Is like having an extra glass when you open a bottle.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:51 - ID#411259)
..... PH and Everybody .....

Yes I know you buy and hold, but now you do others a disservice, for there are many here who want to trade and understand these markets. Not everybody is content to sit on their gold until it hatches. Many, many folks want to trade this market. You would deny them accurate and timely insights into these markets? If you choose to follow the lead of someone who claims to be some sort of mystery royalty, I wish you luck. Let me know when gold goes to 30K .

Also, while waiting for that, realize that gold at 30K is exactly the same as gold at a million or a billion dollars an ounce. If gold is that high, dollars will be worthless. Ah, but I can barter. Yes you can, and I predict you will still be able to buy one suit for one ounce of gold, because the suit will be 30K too. This is how is works. Isnt gold supposed to be a store of value? Only way to get rich on it is to sell it, yes?

I am sorry you dont like numbers. If they can prove whatever you want, perhaps you could take the numbers I offered and prove something different? I would be very interested to see this. Hell, make up your own numbers, I dont care. I think you were trying to prove somehow that what my firm does is not good for people. Yet we put more physical gold in individuals hands than anyone on Earth. This is what you all believe, right? Buy and hold gold? We put more on the streets than anybody in the world, this should be a good thing by your standards, yes?

Yes, you have to delve in the archives. You will not find what you are looking for. Others slammed ANOTHER, I ridiculed the naive folks who believed him. But please prove me wrong. I fear no cut and paste of my words, ever. I love reading the old stuff. While you are searching for the smoking gun that does not exist, perhaps you could read and assimilate some of the things I have said regarding these markets. I am convinced that you will come away from this perusal, if not changed, than decidedly enlightened.

I called the A story a fraud, I even suggested once that ANOTHER was one of the greatest pranksters of all time. I find this to be a statement of high admiration indeedy, for a good prank, well executed is a tricky thing to pull off. You follow him off a cliff if you want. The story is full of holes, it makes no sense. Hey people believe in Rosswell too, so there is no accounting for taste. I have little respect for those that buy into this gig though, but if fantasies of secret machinations your thing, dive right in. The water is wonderful. The water is always wonderful.

You said you dont care about the 90 days I look at. Do yourself a favor. Pull out a silver chart, wouldnt it have been nice to trade these rallies? It would be handy to have an inkling this is coming, yes? You can buy more to hold before the price goes up. It would have been nice to short gold at $350, hold it for a year and nearly triple your money rather than suffering under the weight of this oppressive bear. If you answer that last one as a "no", then I truly do understand you now.

Since you have elected yourself Kitco cop, feel free to pick up the litter, but your words will be wasted on me in the future. You are spoiling for a fight and I won't give it to you.

Why don't you try bad mouthing all of Bart's sponsors. You will really help further the exchange of information exchange that way. For your part, though, I am done. I have never offended you, yet you want to modify my behavior. The former should count for something, and the latter is impossible for you to achieve. Leave me alone and do not respond. This is not your business.

What have you done to support the forum? Have you bought gold from Bart? Have you sent customers to Bart ( I have on numerous occasions ) and the vast majority of e-mails from lurkers I get overwhelmingly support me. The masses like the truth,. They are sick of being spoon fed one ideology or another. They want to hear what is. You only see what you read here. How many hundred e-mails have you received from different people who read this site? Last I looked the incoming archive e-mail count was 452. These are not personal or from folks who post here, these are lurkers and they are legion.

Have you heard from over 400 people who read this site? I have, and they like me. They call me up and they sometimes buy from me, they sometimes trade with me, they sometime just call to talk. But realize one thing. Incoming e-mails nearly double when I take a guttersnipe like farfel down. They love it. They also know he is a blowhard and they are sick of him. The posters on this site, are not representative of the lurkers on this site. And guess what? Is the lurkers who spend the money. Not you guys, you already have your channels, you have you goals, you are well informed about these markets. You might buy a bit here and there, but let me know when you want an order for 1000 ounces of gold. Like the guy I never heard of before guy who called me who told me he follows Kitco and found mine among the only believable voices on the forum and, by the way, where do I send the half million dollars?. Anyway, so while I may be hurt emotionally by attacks on me, the end result is I make more money.

Has anyone here yet figured out why I take no crap? When I call it true and expose the F stains of the world, I make money. Now that is funny, yes. It kind of evolved on its own. But more times than not, the call mentions one or more of my truth seeking sessions with farfel, or others from days gone by. I bet you guys didnt know that.

I should be thankful for farfel. I did some figuring today, and was quite surprised at the amount of people who never called anybody to buy gold, until they read the way I view the markets here. I then added up the $ I made as a result of these calls. It is substantial. I should buy farfel a car for what he has done for me. But I would just want to run him over with it.

This does not mean that I am nice and cuddly. In fact many like to see in their broker what they want in their attorney. No BS go for the jugular and get the job done. It means that most people respect someone who calls it true, and these are the folks who will pass many others by to do business with someone who speaks the truth, in terms of facts, and not beliefs. So I will continue as I have. I will make no attempt to fight. But I will not take the abuse heaped on me by some in the past. If I do, I will never retire by 40

Regarding advertisers:
There is no interest in advertising on this site as long as a rabid racist is allowed to continue his hateful attacks. The farfel name is poison and they want no part of him. If attacks continue, I will stop referring business to Bart. I will stop giving this web site out to dozens of people every week. Why would I send anyone to a site where their family, religion, and race, are cruelly insulted by a sanctimonious grub?

Ask yourself if you like this forum. Then ask yourself who has done more to support this forum. With time, effort, knowledge, and cash in Bart's pocket so he can pay to have this site in which we can all just act like children.

Now it gets down to what this site is all about. It is to make money for Kitco. If this starts to cost Bart money, with no payoff to be seen, he will close it.

For all of you who couldnt read between the lines, I have been trying to make this point for some time now. Bart will loose money because of this. If he looses enough, he will probably close the site. Please think about this, for this is the road we are all on.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:54 - ID#286234)
Then you might know if beeswax is edible. I have a jar full of beeswax and crystalized honey. Afraid if I heat it up it will all melt together. Can I just eat it wax and all? TIA

(Wed Aug 05 1998 02:59 - ID#255284)
Ya know? that post was in jest. Ya know something else? There's a bunch, a whole bunch of kitcoites and others who have picked up the thread and who are in constant email contact with each other. This may yet come to pass. Many, many people are adding their contributions to the idea of minting our own coins. Yes, it may come to pass.

In the meantime I've had another durned crazy idea to buy a swag of land near clear water and invite my fellow goldbugs ( for the price of small pouch of gold ) to vacation downunder at the fin de sicle. Y2K downunder, where you'll be safe from N Hemisphere winter and the predations of your fellow americans.

Don't think the quarters will be up to much until we mix merkin know-how and kiwi ingenuity. Hmmmmmm...BTW we got no bears here, grizz, until you land.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:03 - ID#411259)

As a public service, and if you give me a couple weeks I will assemble each and every one of ANOTHERS posts on this site. I will then e-mail it to whoever wants the whole collection.

Best of all, it is free.

I will also include enough of the questions posed to him so that the timeline is as seamless as I can make it and there is a good sense of give and take. I will edit nothing. I think it is a hoax, you can judge that again for yourselves. But this definitely beats guessing about what he said, yes?

So it is written

So let it be done.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:04 - ID#219363)
Hehehehahahaha, okay, you got me on that one. I haven't a clue. Only thing I know about bees is that my friend's mom used to have a box of'em ( along with guinies ( sp ) , chickens, and lil bitty bunnies ) . We used to eat the honey - I don't remember any wax being in it, but there were plenty of little bee left-overs. *laugh*

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:07 - ID#233199)
@RJ before you waste you time I think Sharefin already has ..
..the asswmbled writings.

I think for most ( at least in retrospect ) the concepts are what stand out and not the authors identity.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:09 - ID#424394)
Aurator, I figured it was in jest. PH & RJ - please cool it!
And so was my comment about painted faces and rugby.

After reading RJ and PH going at each other,
which sets a mood of confrontation.
then reading our posts about guns & painted faces
I can see how a lurker could figure we were tossing veiled insults too.

THAT is the downside ( and danger ) to confrontational postings.
They cast a shadow on the lighthearted ribbing we give each other.
Folks may not know when we're having fun and when shots have been fired.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:15 - ID#255284)
Many a true word is spoken in jest....
I said it in jest, in a fit of delirium. I now see it as serious, very serious, as do several others. It looks like we are going to be minting after all. Really.

:- )

Hello Limey. I've not really ventured onto K2, is a lot of spleen dripping off the walls. What actually happened to the Liberty LGB fella? Does he need to clean up his act, or just his cookies?
ie was LGB 404'd?
( technojargon )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:23 - ID#424394)
Aurator - 'tis great news I hear from you!
Regarding deliriums
Sometimes Jim Beam and I get to sharing an evening
and my typing on Kitco gets a bit carried away and
I say things that well up from my subconscious which
is a heckuvalot more intelligent and knowledgeable than I
( though it can't spell worth a darn when Jim Beam visits. )

P.S. No Jim Beam or his cuzzins tonight though.
I have to get some work done before bed & more work tomorrow.
Good Night All

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:25 - ID#411259)
.... Grizz .....

By recent and comparative standards, I would say the exchange twixt PH and myself is on the mellow side. I did not insult him, he did not insult me. This is plain talking. I am actually impressed with PHs ability to criticize without getting mean or cruel. I can recall no reason why I should have any probs with this fellow, and I am ceasing my end of the thread.

Don't you think that this exchange is an example of how people can be extremely frank with each other and not have in devolve into a rock throwing war? Most of the people I converse with on this site don't agree with my views on gold. I am called to task again and again. But these do not turn into fights. Because nobody insults the other. PH minimized the abuse I received from F grub, intimating that it is something farfel said. Yes it is something he said, only he said it about a hundred times. It does begin to wear.

Gunny said it earlier: It takes two.

and I opt out

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:26 - ID#286234)
If LGB wasn't 404'd he'd still be posting.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:33 - ID#286234)
Hi Promey!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:37 - ID#248180)
Constant ENGAGEMENT! WHY?? WHAT FOR?? This is a PM Chat Site. Please
Some posters on this site must suffer from having very LOW esteem.
To engage every poster that makes a comment oneself. Really.
You posters that contantly do this and create these wars of words.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:38 - ID#433172)
You used to be one of my favorite posters. You have an in job, and a fine paper weight. I thought you'd kissed the sweet girls lips and might even know her name....but NO Farfel the magnificant has exposed you by getting 404'd. You are swinging at shadows.

" If everybody could only understand that if this contiues there will be no Kitco Forum. I know certain individuals etc. etc." This reads to me like a threat,abiet a adolescent one. A delusional association with power figures that you of course represent.

I don't think you understand Kitco at all, the people who are posting here are mainly spirited and intelligent and just won't buy that crap. Kitco needs the posters as well as the posters need Kitco, and a Farfell or two are easier to take than a .....enough said.

So take a word of advice and just shut up about F*

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:45 - ID#248180)
Correction "I made a mistake" that is not hard to say, is it not?
"To engage every poster that makes a comment about oneself or the content of ones post".
Further: With regrets I am starting to scroll past these posters. Yes, in the past they have had valuable in-put but their frequency of personal attacks and garbage, now makes them BORING.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:51 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Time for tsunami to come ashore? S&P busted neckline. Can/will PPT pull it all out? Do they want to, or might they bring it down in a more or less constant manner over a goodly period of time. Doesn't matter. Down is down. 'Should' prove to be at least somewhat beneficial for the metals over this period if PPT doesn't 'fix' it.

RJ -- Correct. Should gold ever be $30,000/oz, The dollar will be worth less than toilet paper; Too course to even use as same! And an oz of gold will only buy a suit even then. And you have been correct on the basic direction of gold since you've been posting here.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:57 - ID#31876)
A Cartoon to Start the Day

(Wed Aug 05 1998 03:57 - ID#284255)
RJ - ANOTHER's comments

I gotta agree with you.
I sold a lot of gold coins I think.
But not for me...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:00 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Rumblings in the Middle East again lately. Time to pull the Saddam bogey-man out of the closet? I feel pretty sure that Klinton will pull something, somewhere to get himself out of the lime-light, or have one of his 'good-buddies' somewhere do it for him.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:11 - ID#411259)
..... Save your time ....


Don't waste your time. farfelonius is exactly ASB, only now he is recycling old jokes and copied poems and letters about grandma. It is as transparent an attempt to bury a nose up the collective arse ( thanks bloop, I forgot about this particular conjugation, I think this word will come in handy ) .

A new mysterious poster named Jujube did a standard call to truth job, ( he may have learned this from me and he acquitted himself with a peculiar black humor that tended to reinforce the process rather than detract ) . Jujube reposted F holes older words next to his newer ones and proved him a liar. F lump begged and pleaded for ME to let him be, but he had me confused with Jujube. I don't THINK F slug was drinking, but he made this mistake more than once. Jujube reminded him of the folks who begged him to just let them post and leave them alone. This was met by silence from F bog.

Fumpy ( I just made that up, I guess it is a contraction of F and Lumpy? ) then stormed off the set to his dressing room to call his agent for a better booking. Furniture was thrown about, PH and TYoung and jonesy said they like fumpy so he should continue his posts. Jujube promised to always be at fumpy's side as long as he is here. Tyoung and PH told Jujube he was being unfair. Jujube explained that fairness was killed long ago, and the wanted poster for the killer had a picture of fumpy on it.

Fumpy tried to read something into the Jujube moniker, but Jujube reminded fumpy of the candy, these days only found in movie theaters, which is sticky, gummy, tasteless, and simply too much trouble to fool with.

Fumpy claimed he would not return, and Jujube, sensing that the task is complete, shot himself in the head. Jujube is not a good shot so he lingered and bled for a couple hours before passing on. Services for Jujube will be held this weekend at Russells house. You, of course are invited.

Oh, yeah. Bart seems to have killed K2 for the time being. Bart himself posted that the gloves are off on K2 and the first four rules of engagement in the netiquette will not be severely enforced on K2. Jujube took this and ran with it. The kind of slow and deliberate escalation you have seen perhaps by others in the past?

Jujube made a couple of last jibes as his lifeblood spilled out. It was a harrowing death scene and one that is sure to bring me night terrors for months. Finally Jujube gasped his last and slipped into oblivion.

It was, on the whole, more controlled and better executed job than I may have done, but this Jujube looked like an up and comer so I just sat back and watched. The decision was decisive. 12 rounds, all to Jujube. Sad that he ended his young life so soon, though, that fellow had promise.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:12 - ID#411259)
..... Eldo .....

Where you been? Vacation?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:31 - ID#293184)
I am just a lurker
Am sniffing around for a bottom. I sold my last gold stock ALTA in
3/96 soon after Soros sold his NEM, which was conviently just prior to Belgium's CB selling gold and the start of the bear.
My first experience with gold shares was right at the top of 1974 gold bull when gold was $ Blyvooruitzicht......rode it thru the gold bear when gold went down 100% to $100, but Blyvoor paid hefty dividend from its 'depleting reserves' hence not a good stock and sold it in 1980. Now days I sell spike tops and walk away. Anyway I like this forum with much good info, much more than I have. Even the food fights are interesing, but a waste of time. Regards.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:32 - ID#255284)
where you from?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:33 - ID#293184)
down 50%

(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:46 - ID#411259)
..... George .....

I was just as surprised as you when I was told about the attitude towards fumpy. The decision to advertise is not mine, nor would I ever imply that it is. I was told by some that this is a deal breaker. I agree with you though, this is a boring exposition and better left in the past. I thought this had been accomplished already, but vampires may rise again.

Recall though, when fumpy had his post summer solstice meltdown, I was nowhere to be found. I had not posted for days. I had nothing to do with his original 404. He was not 404'd from K2, K2 was shut down.

As for myself. I have sent many people to this site and to Bart to buy metal. I have routinely referred clients and others to this site in the past. If all I get is rabid fumpies, why in the world would I continue this? This is no threat. This is good business sense.

I am as addicted to Kitco as anyone, and I don't want to see this site fail. This is unique spot in the world and we are all brethren in at least our passion for the metals. Like you, I feel this place became ever more unpleasant. Whenever I tried to post the info you found so useful in the past, fumpy blasted me for being an ideological new paradigm something or other. It became impossible to discuss the market. Oh, we could talk all day long about the international conspiracy to knock gold down and dire words about our great country's demise. Fumpy hates the USA. I rather like it.

If you have read Kitco the last month, you have seen productive peace on this site, the first to be seen in these climes since fumpy stowed away in the pickle barrel, only to burst forth once we were at sea, poking holes in the sails with his giggin' knife.

Much was even discussed about the markets as they are today, and how that would effect tomorrow and, ultimately, all our fortunes. The last 30 days had more useful present time market info, well presented by many, than in the three months that preceded. No bandwidth was wasted on those that can do naught but insult. Please understand, every jibe penned by my hand, was borne of a dozen filthy slanders from fumpy.

But, again, you are right, and I am also bored with the whole thing. Too bad Jujube lost his life over this, but the sacrifice was noble. Also recall, this was kept off K1 and on K2 where it belonged. K2 seems to be shut down. PH posted many words to me here, I have responded, and I am content to let it be.

I am sorry you don't like my stuff anymore, but I hope to get back to speaking of the markets soon.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 04:52 - ID#411259)
..... Salty .....

Count me in for the NZ trip to a clear lake. I've got 60K flier miles I need to use up. I'm there. I'll bring a bottle of vodka and a jar of pickles in case oris ( where is he? ) shows up. JD will need a Russian blonde, and Fin Who Shares and I can go fishin' while he regales me with tales of stormy seas

I like it!

Limey - hebedownunderbound

(Wed Aug 05 1998 05:17 - ID#153102)
@You Be The Judge @selling gold
Imagine the continuity of the familiar virtual reality of the virtual account has been interrupted and you are the judge in a bankruptcy proceeding.
Creditors of the defunct depository are filing claims. Many come with nothing more than a printed statement of account.

But, there is no certification. No affidavit or sworn statement of authenticity. No seal, no public record. These statements can be cooked up on a word processor.

Do you admit them as evidence over the objections of the trustees of the assets ?

When I sell my gold, I think it will be for land or a boat, a truck, or the like but not for paper.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 05:20 - ID#255284)
Now that's what I call a good start.

The book is open....let's see what we can weave with the warp and weft of those who should like to attend Y2K perhaps beyond, downunder

a summer of


opportunity...ob portunus...the wind that blows to a safe harbour

....opportunity knocks.....

Who's there?

( I should really stop being so damned right-brained )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 05:25 - ID#255284)
back in the days when I was a game-keeper, a NZ company "GoldCorp" came to the list. Exploiting a mile wide chasm in exchange regns. To cut a long and interesting story short, they issued gold deposit certificates at the rate of several times more gold that was in the vaults. Was an interesting fight over the securitisation of the gold that was actually in the vaults at the time of liquidation. Unsuprisingly, the banks as first debenture holders managed to defeat the flimsy trust claims of the certificate holders.

Hold Gold

Or better still

give it to me and I'll hold it for you.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 06:02 - ID#185448)
Today is D-Day for me. Like D-dnt I tell you? Some respect is back, I think- the LOOK changed slightly.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 06:11 - ID#386245)
I thought they were called shepherds??

(Wed Aug 05 1998 06:31 - ID#185448)
There seems to be some music in the air: gcq8 at
says: Last: 288.8 Best Bid: 282.3 Ask 291.5
Modest volume

(Wed Aug 05 1998 06:38 - ID#29048)
WSJ -Commodities report
August 5, 1998

Rally in the Yen, Dow's Fall Combine to Lift Gold Prices

Dow Jones Newswires

NEW YORK -- Gold gained Tuesday due to a rally in the Japanese yen and the plunge in the U.S. stock market, analysts said.

Recent yen weakness against the dollar has troubled the gold market by raising the cost of the metal in Japan, a major consuming country. Falling stock prices prompted some investors to park their money in gold, which is often a refuge during times of financial market instability.

At the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange, the most active December gold contract rose $4.60 to $292.50 a troy ounce, while the cash price was trading up by the same amount at $288.45 an ounce late in the day. "The precious metals moved on the dollar decline," said Jim Steel, commodities analyst at Refco Inc. in New York. Yen strength "breathed life into the gold, and into the bullion markets in general," he said. Late afternoon in New York, the dollar was trading at 145.05 yen, down from 145.63 yen Monday.

William O'Neill, senior futures strategist at Merrill Lynch in New York, said falling U.S. stocks encouraged buying of gold. "We're finally seeing a little safe haven interest in gold," Mr. O'Neill said. However, he said he viewed Tuesday's rally in gold as a temporary move in an overall bear market.

"I don't think the major reason gold is lower has gone away," Mr. O'Neill said. "Negative factors still exist for gold. Demand out of India is horrible for both gold and silver, and the physical side of these markets
continues to be weak."

Robin Alssid, senior precious-metals manager at Mitsubishi International Corp. in New York said the rally was propelled mainly by funds buying to cover positions, or balancing previous sales of futures.

Mr. O'Neill concurred and pointed out that the Commodity Futures Trading Commission's Commitments of Traders Report released Friday showed that speculative commodity funds had built up a large amount of short positions. According to Friday's report, the funds' net short position totaled 39,767 contracts as of July 28.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 06:40 - ID#252391)
JSE ALL GOLD up 2.6%
Nice little bounce in the South Africans this morning following a long decline on the recovery of the Rand and decline in gold. Rand at 6.17 so its nice to see the rally does not seem currency based and may have something to do with the fundlementals of the shares and the prospect for gold.

Dollar index in in the lower quadrant of the 100 to 101 range. Weekly close below 100 would be the signal to me that the dollar has turned.
After living through all these bullish dollar days its hard to beleive the dollar will fall very far very fast but I'll go with a sell signal on a weekely close below 100.

S&P on GLobex is up 500 points - will we see a repeat of yesterday - good opening followed by a sell off? If I had to bet I'd say a mid day break in the US stock market would be a buy for a +50 point day. Have to keep those dipsters believing.

I'm fascinated by the drop in the oil service sector. Diamond Offshore being my favorite in the group. PE at 12 with earning estimates still showing handsome increases into 1999. OIL however is still in a pretty decided downtrend. If I keep my buy order far enough away I shall not get a fill until this stuff is really washed out. I'll remember that I thought 1 1/8 was cheap for SSC - HA. "They weren't cheap until they have started going up." October November should really see some bargins in the oil sector if the October seasonal bear roars again - somehow this year I think it will be different - too many people thinking the same thing.

ThinKing you could sell silver and gold right at the open this morning and not be sorry. No momentum in this relief rally demonstrating itself overseas. Should another slide down develope it'll be quicker and deeper than the last - beware. Trend in gold is still down!!!! DOW still above its 200 day moving average - ah should we someday be able to say the same for gold and silver.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:03 - ID#185448)
No news from Switzerland yet??
I bet, there will be an announcement from Switzerland within the next days, re Gold. Anytime, when markets headed south, they came out with some story about 1. ) The Holocaust-fund and how it should be financedby gold-sales or 2. ) The Swiss-franc and how they intend to short its Gold-backing.

So dont be surprised, if they continue to sing their gold-is-dead-mantra.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:05 - ID#288369)
@Promey.........a timely flight from congested thought..........
I hope you have a vunderful time under the Great Blue come home...and with a clear eye. This will help us. Salud to YA!!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:07 - ID#252391)
Dollar coming back
The $$ is now at 100.65 , very close to the highs for its overnight sesion. Gold up a miniscule 80 cents while silver has hit 5.50 basis Sept. S&P fluctuating between up 500 and up 100.

Mike Sheller
(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:08 - ID#347447)
Mercurial Bull
Don't celebrate the slaughter of the bull too quickly, Kitcoites. This plunge is coincident with a rare Mercury station and retrograde right in square with NYSE Sun. ( Also conjuncting Bill Clinton's Sun at the same, my, WHAT a coincidence! ) This phenomenon will depart in a couple of weeks - we should see it ebbing in a few days. The "Big One" - the mean old stock bear - won't come out of hibernation until interest rates start to go up. Period.

btw - as brother Arden mentioned last nite, we are now producing gold from our Placer mine in Alaska. This is an operation set in motion by Kitcoites meeting and working together. In my years in business I have never experienced anything as amazing as the internet and the enhancement of the commonality of interests it affords.Thank you Bart, thank you Kitcoites. We ARE the ultimate contrarians, are we not? ( ;- )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:10 - ID#253246)
@anyone Anglo's Godsell on Squawk box this am
I eamiled m haines to see if Robert Godsell will say who holds the
other end of the $410 hedged gold price that his company or
barrick receives. will see if they ask him

Steve in TO__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:10 - ID#287337)
Interesting Russian News
Russia to Issue Gold-Backed Government Securities

Gold Miners Will Pay in Gold

MOSCOW -- ( Reuters ) Russia plans to issue gold-backed government securities soon worth a maximum total of 50 tons of gold, a banker who participated in working out the program said on Monday.

Uneximbank deputy chairman Yevgeny Ivanov said that Prime Minister Sergei Kiriyenko signed main terms for circulation of the securities. Now the Finance Ministry is to issue a more detailed plan, he said.

The government will sell the paper, called "gold certificates," among gold miners who are to pay for them in kind. The miners will be obliged to sell the securities on the secondary market.

The government will hold auctions where miners can sell their certificates at the Moscow International Stock Exchange, the only exchange with a license for operations with gold. Ivanov added that first auctions would take place in September.

"Of course, not all 50 tons will be placed at once, there will be three or five auctions," Ivanov said. "It is clear that a $500 million issue in September, when the liquidity of the Russian baking system is quite low, is interesting to attract nonresidents."

Under the program, foreigners have the right to buy the certificates. But since none of them have licenses for operations with gold, they can only do that on the secondary market, or through a Russian bank agent.

Russian banks can also act as agents to export gold for foreign clients, Ivanov said.

He said the securities would have maturities coinciding with the schedule of gold mining with tranches maturing in August, September, October and November 1999.

Russia Today, August 4, 1998

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:15 - ID#288369)
@now we must cling to the tattered golden fringe.....
else, we are hurled into chaos along with the others lost. Thus, I must take leave and immerse my soul into the tonality of agitated spruce and maple. GO GOLDBUGS!!!

Mike Sheller
(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:19 - ID#347447)
Notes Notes
Wow. Gold-backed paper notes! What a concept. Leave it to Russia.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:19 - ID#287337)
Mike Sheler: Why does October always seem to be the . . .
"month of the bear?" There's no question that stock markets break down almost always in October- do you have any insights on the phenomenon?

- Steve

Steve in TO__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:21 - ID#287337)
Oops- sorry for the typo Mike . . .
Sheller- I'll put 2 l's in in the future : )

Mike Sheller
(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:25 - ID#347447)
I think the 2 noteworthy crashes ( '29 and '87 ) have made October's reputation. But I just looked quickly at a chart of the Dow going back to 1896 and most true bear markets began in the first half of the year, often early, where prices had topped and then started down. Very few bears actually began after August, and perhaps those that waited beyond this poinbt had to plunge quickly to "make up for lost time" in October. I really don't know why it SEEMS that October is so treacherous. Is it really? are there any "statistics?" ( My God, I'm starting to sound like LGB! )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:45 - ID#43185)
@Mike Sheller
No, you are correct. Most bear markets did not begin in October. Even the 1929 one didn't begin in October. That just happened to be when it had it's most notable down day.

This bear market really began about the middle or end of March so far as the average stock is concerned. The insiders ( fund managers, CEO's, etc. ) have been steadily moving their holdings out of small cap stocks and into the more defensive issues for some time now ( even as they hyped the ones they were getting out of to their clients ) .

Now we are begining to gain some acceleration, but we have a ways to go yet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:51 - ID#427357)
The Big One is here!!!! AND IT'S A REAL BEAR

August 4th may go down in market infamy! Consider the draconian moves yesterday.

- DOW DOWN 300 points

- US Dollar Index DOWN more than 4%

- Gold UP nearly 5 Bucks

- Highest volume in the NYSE history - 815 million shares

- Asain markets DOWN nearly across the board

Testament that something very fundamental is occurring is the fact that ALL THESE DRAMATIC changes occurred in One Day!!!!!!

It appears a sea-change paradigm is finally materializing.

Analyst Clif Droke is another astute market observer who has been predicting a market reversal -- the likes of which have not been seen for more than two long generations. Droke is forecasting a 7000 DOW very soon. His detailed observations may be appreciated at the following URL. Per tradition - it is necessary to delete the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" before posting it to the Internet:

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:52 - ID#43185)
Another morning
Silver still looks weak this morning. Gold not much better.

Stock indices are suggesting further decline in small stuff, but some dipster bounce in the DOW.

Nobody wants to make a move until NY opens.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 07:59 - ID#29048)
Reality Check
The Dow is only down 9-10% from the all time highs. That is a minor correction, which we used to get several times per year. Bloomberg surveyed several fund managers and the most bearish is calling this correction to end around 8000 +- 100 points. Remember, these are the guys controlling lotsa money. Yahoo is up in Europe among other U.S. stocks, signaling no panic over there. Gold has fallen through support at 290 and that point is now resistance. Patience folks, don't get stampeded...yet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:05 - ID#39862)
Kalgoorlie, Diggers and Dealers Conference 1998

This Conference ended today, after 3 days of exploration, mining and financial presentations and discussions focused upon GOLD.

Stating the obvious, the general consenus was that we, as an industry, are "in hard times". However, the mining companies are making good returns ( for example, Delta Gold NL have posted a AU$60 million profit for the year ) , but raising the exploration dollar is VERY difficult.

The URL is located :

Some of the actual presentations are yet to be posted. Mr T McNamara of New York gave an interesting perspective ( GOLD, US$ 325 to 350 by end 1998 ? ) -

CIBC Oppenheimer & Co Inc
"North American Gold Perspective"
Thomas McNamara

Och aye the nooooooooooooo.............

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:10 - ID#26793)
London morning precious metal news and comment.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:13 - ID#29048)
Anglogold ADR starts trading today
under the symbol AU. Just heard it on Squawk Box.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:15 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- Some work. Some vacation. Vacation seems to make it ALL better! Just might have to plan to do that again sooner.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:16 - ID#255226)
GFD, Thanks for the Gold star. Needless to say yesterday was a decent day for me. Covered my short SnP's at 1084 bought them back this morning at 1075 no stop at the moment. Silver so far has held the 5.35 area. It must hold here if my road to 7 then 11 chart is to remain possible. If you're long keep stops under yesterday's lows. If we hold next target is in the mid 6's. Gold had a nice rally but hasnt been confirmed by anything yet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:18 - ID#26793)
Mass graves discovered in Kosovo; one has 567 bodies, 430 of them children.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:21 - ID#45173)
There is bearish sentiment on the street
During times of bullish sentiment, bad news is ignored and the buying continues. Now when bad news comes, it causes selling. It started with individuals stocks. A company announced a relatively minor downgrade of a previous earnings estimate and the stock gets hammered 40%. Now fund managers and investers have their eyes open, wide open, for bad news in general -- deepening of the Asia crisis, a tough Q3 and Q4, and some may have begun to discount for Y2K already. And they will continue to get bad news. As I've said, Q3 numbers will be a suprise. GDP may be negative. Asian economies cannot melt down without an impact on the US economy, but the imact takes longer than anyone expects. Productivity increases from technology investments and workforce reductions peaked in Q1 of this year. Stock prices were already 50% or more above the levels that real earnings growth rates might have justified. The DOW will gradually fall back to pre-1997 levels by the end of Oct., unless there's panic, in which case it will fall farther.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:26 - ID#207145)
Welcome to THE CRASH
Little bounce this morning, Then the elevator crashes

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:26 - ID#354133)
REAGAN: "You see, there he goes again...."
Danged used car salesmen... Beating dead horses. Or was it economists? Any thing to prove one is ALWAYS right. Make the sale! Make more sales! Wasted bandwidth...Oops, we're all guilty of that.

Perhaps a limit of 100 words per post. It'd be like a Monty Python film that just ends. When you reach the limit, you get cut off in the middle of th......

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:27 - ID#207145)
29, 87, 98 Stand aside. All the girls go, even the piano player.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:32 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Gotta watch how it behaves around the previous lows. No crash until those have beeen tested and found to be wanting.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:32 - ID#207145)
Itn is coming early.eeeeeeeeiiiiihhoooooooo.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:32 - ID#36965)
Acceleration effect
The derivities ( naked options and their ilk ) have had a lot to do with the move up in the equities markets, accelerating and enhancing the natural flow of things. Now we have reached the summit and are going down the other side. The markets will be like a hiker going down the mountain with a big back pack on his back. The back pack will be the derivities which will speed up his fall and will make it very difficutl to get his footing. Gold's performance yesterday was a pleasant thing to see. For once it did not drop in sympathy to the equity markets. This could be the real thing, or at least the beginning of it. My prediction is that gold is on the way up, steady by jerks.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:35 - ID#207145)
Straight down from here
Don't look down. We could lose 50% in a lot of stocks and still be overvalued. Don't look down. It's scary .CRASH ALERT, CRASH ALERT.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:35 - ID#284255)
Aurator @ not a hole in one.
We could always send RJ round the bend in the "hole in the wall" BOI.
Catch a few stripies on the way.
A week eating scallops and 'puka at Great Barrier would be great fun.

But then what we gonna drink???

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:35 - ID#36965)
Gold stock index
I lost my URL for the gold stock index. Would someone kindly post this site? Thanks.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:39 - ID#36965)
Joke of the morn
Here's a little story to bear in mind as we face what may be in the USA equities and metals markets today.

Murphy, a dishonest lawyer, bribed a man on his client's jury to hold
out for a charge of manslaughter, as opposed to the charge of murder which was brought by the state. The jury was out for several days before they returned with the manslaughter verdict. When Murphy paid the corrupt juror, he asked him if he had a very difficult time convincing the other jurors to see things his way. "Sure did," the juror replied, "the other eleven wanted to acquit."

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:42 - ID#207145)
At the markets top. What a ya stupid o sumthin. If this isn't a crash, I been fooled. Let us see how many buyers come out to shop.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:44 - ID#207145)
Just hold on to the sides of elevator

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:46 - ID#207145)
My, My, My. I do think fate can turn it UP A NOTCH OR TWO!!.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:46 - ID#354133)
Good one Tort -
Wizened last nite mentioned some ex-presidents. In my files, I found an appropriate comparison of the two most recent corrupt ones.

Similarities between Nixon and Clinton:

Nixon: Watergate
Clinton: Waterbed

Nixon: His biggest fear - the Cold War
Clinton: His biggest fear - a Cold Sore

Nixon: Worried about carpet bombs
Clinton: Worried about carpet burns

Nixon: His Vice President was a Greek
Clinton: His Vice President is a geek

Nixon: Couldn't stop Kissinger
Clinton: Couldn't stop kissing her

Nixon: Couldn't explain the 18 minute gap in the Watergate tape
Clinton: Couldn't explain the 36-DD bra in his brief case

Nixon: His nickname was Tricky Dick
Clinton: ( No difference )

Nixon: Ex-President
Clinton: Sex-President

Nixon: Known for campaign slogan "Nixon's The One"
Clinton: Known for women pointing at him saying "He's the one!"

Nixon: Famous for his widow's peak
Clinton: Famous for bringing widows to their peak

Nixon: Well acquainted with G. Gordon Liddy
Clinton: Well acquainted with the G Spot

Nixon: Took on Ho Chi Minh
Clinton: Took on a 'ho

Nixon: Talked about achieving peace with honor
Clinton: Talked about getting a piece while on her

Mike Sheller
(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:49 - ID#347447)
Trashing the Crash
Many stocks have had an underlying correction already. The more visible indices are now catching up ( or should we say "down" ) I don't think this is so much the start of a significant bear as it is a setup for a major topping pattern. The bearishness is too evident too quickly. The next upsurge, when the current smoke clears, will be in the medium and small caps. They major indices may not ( or May ) make new highs, but the underlying market rotation will be very interesting ) .With interest rates where they are, and stable, this bull market is still in very little danger. Until there are signs of a major asset inversion ( paper down, real stuff up ) there is no stock market bear evident. This "correction" has been like a normal $10 stock fluctuating 3/4 down over a couple of weeks.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:49 - ID#284255)
Who's going to try and catch the bounce???
Like in last Oct.
By memory a few house funds went under cause they bet the wrong way.
A bet there's a lot of people waiting to buy this chance of a lifetime.
Always has been - always will.

Someones going to be buying all the way to the bottom.
Just like the non-believers of Y2k
Time will prove them wrong.

Could well be a doozy down day today.
All my time and speed indicators are running at full speed.
No bottom yet - unless preplanned intervention.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:49 - ID#207145)
Snap back rally?
It will be met with vicious selling this afternoon? Or will we have a bounce today. It will not last. CRASH to be continued.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:50 - ID#375108)
Stocks undervalued...Abbey Joseph Cohen
SnP Futures up about 2; dollar weak but gold and silver looking weak. Sheller's right, don't count this Dow bull out yet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:53 - ID#36965)
Perspective (gunrunner-loved the comparisons)
My law partner who is a co-trustee of our profit-sharing plan with me when I told him about the 299+ drop in the market yesterday responded by stating that he wished we had more money to invest at these bargain prices and carefully called me over to the window and showed me that the sky had not fallen. I just shook my head and walked away. There will have to be a bigger drop to get the attention of the dipsters.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:53 - ID#93241)
oil bear...
Saudi Arabia has reportedly joined Kuwait in contemplating the possibility
of a third round of crude oil production cuts, in an attempt to bolster
prices. On July 29, Kuwaiti Oil Minister Sheikh Saud al-Nasir said at a press
conference at Kuwait's National Assembly that OPEC members should consider
additional production cuts if the price of Brent crude does not reach $17
by November. The collapse of oil prices in 1998, driven in large part by sharply reduced
Asian demand, has had a severe impact on the economies of oil producing
countries. As a result, several OPEC and non-OPEC oil producers have twice attempted production cuts in order to drive up the price of oil.
While there has been some cheating by signatories to the two production cut
agreements, the fundamental problem with these agreements, and with any
third round of cuts, is that they are simply not enough to eliminate the
global oversupply. On top of this, non-participants in the production cut agreements have increased production in 1998 in an attempt to maintain revenues, and Iraq
is preparing for a major increase in production. Commercial oil inventories, which are measured in days of supply, have increased in Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development ( OECD ) countries to 27.7 days of supply in 1998 from 26 days of supply in 1997.
Even with production cuts in place, global inventories are continuing to
grow by 1.1 million barrels per day as refinery utilization has remained
near capacity. Upward pressure on prices caused by any additional
production cuts will be buffered by inventory draw-down. Furthermore,
production cuts do not change the fact that Asian demand has plummeted with
the region's financial meltdown, and as China gets swallowed up in the
crisis, demand will only sink further.
Production cuts also fail to change the fact that new technology has made
oil easier and cheaper to locate and produce. Development in some areas,
such as Central Asia, has slowed due to cutbacks in national and corporate
exploration and production budgets. But if prices begin to rise, these
projects may resume development, threatening once again to drive prices
back down. The imbalance between supply and demand, with the resulting low
crude prices, looks ready to become a long-term phenomenon.
Barring an unexpected and highly unlikely recovery in Asian demand, only a
dramatic, involuntary, and prolonged reduction in production has any hope
of raising crude prices.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:55 - ID#93241)
forgive me...
that last post is courtesy of Stratfor Global Intelligence Updates

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:56 - ID#410198)
To follow up on my post last nite FED IS STOCKPILING CURRENCY FOR 1999....don't have time to get the
article but someone can Boston Business Journal 7/27/98.....

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:58 - ID#57232)
Good point about interest rates
Mike Sheller: Your insight in this site is always refreshing. Hard to argue with low interest rates being positive for the markets. And -- the Old Man said that when this bull went bear it wouldn't be pretty.
But anyone in the markets must be as nimble as a successful gold bug. A rare breed in these parts -- with the exception of RJ, and a few others who can handle the ups and downs.
Any thoughts about when the next rally will begin into the fall? My sunpot indicator suggests commodities and markets should continue to go up -- as long as the sunspot number is rising. ( odds increased 2x ) . But this model also predicts a precipitous downturn when the sunspot 'rally' fizzles. And Clinton is not down for the count -- yet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 08:59 - ID#288369)
Your buddy is the perfect example.......the salient FACT is that he has no more money to buy what he wants. He will have even less money next week. Then he will WANT even more. PS, I sure enjoy your humor.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:01 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Tort, gunrunner -- With jokes like those, who needs vacation! Great way to start the mornin'.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:02 - ID#288369)
@gunrunner, tort......
keep it comin'! good stuff. HELLLOOOOOOOO ELDO!

Steve in TO__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:03 - ID#287337)
Mike - October misnomer . . .
You're right- bear markets haven't "begun" historically in October. In 1929 the high happened on Sept. 4. I think once our forthcoming bear market gets underway hindsight will show that the high happened in July.

I should have called October the "month of the crash." And it really appears to be the period from late september through early November. It's a period when the herd is stampeded, when the unaware sheep wake up to the fact that the value of their investments has been eroding, and suddenly rush en masse to sell.

1929 and 1987 are famous. I don't know if you recall that in Oct. 1997 a crash started, but was aborted by US Treasury Dept. intervention ( purchases of S&P 500 futures contracts via Goldman & Sachs, and sponsoring share buybacks by some large US corporations. ) Interestingly, that crash was right on schedule, valuation-wise, with the percent run-up matching 1929 and 1987 exactly. Who knows what the pressures that have built will do when they finally do blow off!

The crash of 1720 started in this time frame ( the last 2 weeks of Sept., characterized by a complete loss of liquidity- there were almost no buyers available. ) It had as profound effect on the attitudes of people in the 18th century as the 1929 crash did in the 20th century.

Bear markets are based on rational calculation- people who have decided that their shares are overvalued sell in an orderly fashion to others who disagree.

Crashes are emotion-driven, a triumph of fear over greed, and they originate in the amygdala, not in the cortex. They happen in the fall.

If anyone has some thoughts or information about why this happens, I'd like to hear about it.

- Steve

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:06 - ID#288369)
@The crop is ripe.........
Fall is traditionally HARVEST TIME. let the blade cut.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:06 - ID#36156)
RJ - Regarding my name.
Dear Sir;

Please omit the use of my name in your future posts. I can assure you that I will have little problem keeping yours out of mine.

PH - You have put my thoughts into words. Thank you.


Steve in TO__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:07 - ID#287337)
JTF - Do sunspots do anything . . .
unusual in the fall? Sorry to keep harping on this fall crash thing, but I'm stymied, and am looking everywhere and anywhere for clues.

- Steve

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:08 - ID#300202)
Regis & CathyLee Early Morn Analysis(Kloset Kitcoites)
Mkts to open higher- ( suported by Gellman ) & Regis says to fall this afternoon. Cathy says "Wimps". As good as any analysis here. In my 1 1/2
yrs listening to negatory news media spin on Gold, commentary on Cdn
T.V. this A.M.-"Where do investors go when stocks are falling-why, bonds
& gold. Nice to hear. GO My Precious!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:09 - ID#432221)
OK, one a you guys with a ticker tell us whats goin on

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:09 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Might actually get a retest of 291 area on the Dec gold this morning. Then the stock markets will have made their first 'ping' of the day and a quick follow up at about the same time. Then the real day begins.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:11 - ID#288369)
It's your what you want to do....sock it to 'em...Baby!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:11 - ID#57232)
Good point about interest rates
Mike Sheller: Your insight in this site is always refreshing. Hard to argue with low interest rates being positive for the markets. And -- the Old Man said that when this bull went bear it wouldn't be pretty.
But anyone in the markets must be as nimble as a successful gold bug. A rare breed in these parts -- with the exception of RJ, and a few others who can handle the ups and downs.
Any thoughts about when the next rally will begin into the fall? My sunspot indicator suggests commodities and markets should continue to go up -- for some time. ( odds increased 2x ) . But this model also predicts a precipitous downturn when the sunspot 'rally' fizzles. And Clinton is not down for the count -- yet. Perhaps he will 'hang his head like a little boy' as they say, and do the 'I did the wrong thing, but now I am telling the truth' bit. Could knock the wind out of the xxxgate investigation until something else surfaces.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:14 - ID#45173)
If I had a heavy position in the market, I'd badly want to believe
that the last few weeks represented a healthy and normal pullback from unhealthy levels. Prices can now stablize while corporate earnings catch up with stock prices. But most investors are in the market because of its velocity, not because of the real value of stocks. The pullback has been caused by long-term trends that have slowed the velocity of the market, namely the Asia crisis and evidence that confirms the idea that corporations cannot continue to increase earnings forever. If one allows oneself to think these things, and to make sell decisions based on them, then one must look for a reversal in these trends to justify buying back in.

There will be no reversal of these trends. The Asia crisis will get worse as will corporate earnings. So the selling will continue at the rate at which investors, at their individual pace, come to allow themselves to see the market for what it has been and what it will be, once a fast moving speculative shining horse to jump onto and now a slow moving blotted cow to jump off of. It's sort of like taking a critical look at a person you're in love with. Depending on the degree of your affections, either, Yes he is a good man, but not perfect, or, He is horrid and ugly! What did I ever see in him!

We are where the Japanese were when their market was at 39,000. In love with our perfect stock market and economy, our invincible selves, the rightness and superiority of our way.

Investors are falling out of love with the market. Down it goes.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:16 - ID#288369) da' man of late.....
Oxymoronistic: There is no more equity in the equity account.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:17 - ID#432221)
Any o' you guys know the difference between the Rolling Stones

and a Scotsman?
The Rolling stones say"Hey YOU, get offa my cloud", but a Scotsman says "Hey McCloud, get offa my ewe!"

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:19 - ID#317193)
Flight to safety=Gold bull...not til then...
Fear in the market...wait and watch for it...then gold.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:22 - ID#288369)
@ring....ring.....ring...........ah, hellllooooooooooooo?
Who's there? MARGIN CALLS.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:23 - ID#207145)
Direction is down. Joe sixpack gets his pocket picked.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:29 - ID#207145)
Studio R
I hate to say this, but II got to try PTEN on just 1 mo time. Don't know when. Probably at 3.5 ha ha !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:31 - ID#207145)
What is a margerine call? parkay,butter.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:32 - ID#288369)
@bloOper...short 'er (pten).......or just sit back and enjoy........
The Incredible Shrinking be released soon.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:33 - ID#207145)
Not a drill. FREEFALL.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:35 - ID#207145)
Will wait for confirmation of bottom this time. We coulda got rich shorting these drillers!!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:35 - ID#39862)

When they circumcised you - did they throw the wrong bit away ?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:35 - ID#39862)

When they circumcised you - did they throw the wrong bit away ?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:35 - ID#57232)
Sunspot cycles -- Try a search for SUNSPOT NUMBER
Steve in To: There is a ( fairly weak ) spring and fall component to the sunspot cycle. I am rusty on this -- all my literature is at home. I think what this is - is that the Earth's axis tilts up and down every year -- giving us summer and winter. This affects the relation of the Earth's magnetosphere with the solar wind -- the net result is that the electromagnetic effects of the solar wind -- driven by the sunspots -- are stronger in spring and fall. My guess is that solar flare effects are somewhat stronger at these times -- if there are sunspots to cause the flares.
I wish I could tell you more. All I understand for sure at this point is that the sunspot number affects the solar constant directly ( heat delivered to the earth ) , and that solar flares and other solar activity are strongest during high sunspot activity. As far as I know, no one knows how the solar wind ( solar flares, etc ) affects the Earth's weather, human behavior, or precisely when a solar flare will occur years in advance. I'll give you a clue, however. Lighting does not just pass from cloud to cloud, or to the ground, but also as sprites from 'outer space' to the earth. I suspect that we have the thunderstorm dynamo model upside down, and much of the electrical energy comes for the solar wind. You might want to look up 'Shaumann Resonance'. Interesting. Good thing we humans can't drive this dynamo as efficiently yet as mother nature. Might be able to modify the weather -- but we had better understand what we are doing before we do it. Pandora's box again.
Just a thought -- If we are talking about the sun affecting the weather or human behavior ( little known ) , there is a delay of at least 24 hours between the solar event and the corresponding response in the magnetosphere. It is not the 9 minutes of the speed of light -- but the delayed time of electrons and protons. The moon modulates the solar wind by passing through it. Complicated given that the solar wind is not isotropic. Hope this helps -- rather sketchy.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:35 - ID#288369)
bloOper.....A Margerine Call......
is a unsavory spread for burnt toast. gotsta' go ala office. carry on.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:38 - ID#207145)
Alert. This ain't orderly.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:40 - ID#207145)
What in the world are youse talkin about? Never mind.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:42 - ID#147201)
At 9:48 Dowm 52

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:45 - ID#284255)
Wacky or weird???

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:49 - ID#207145)
Thank you for the warning. It is always dangerous to play dead cat bounces.... I am a speculator,with very short stops. I appreciate your advice. The whole idea would be to anticipate buying and avoid selling.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:54 - ID#39862)
blooper............with respect...............

You are a man of few words. The trouble is you keep repeating them.....

Try to be broad minded, think of little else !

Remember, Jock McPerv was so mean he used to reverse charge his obscene telephone calls.

Scots have a sense of humour, because it's a gift !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:56 - ID#39862)
blooper............with respect...............

You are a man of few words. The trouble is you keep repeating them.....

Try to be broad minded, think of little else !

Remember, Jock McPerv was so mean he used to reverse charge his obscene telephone calls.

Scots have a sense of humour, because it's a gift !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:56 - ID#147201)
DOW DOWN and up
It hit 8412 and bounced over 8500 so far. Volatile+++ As much as 7 point jumps both ways

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:57 - ID#39862)
blooper............with respect...............

You are a man of few words. The trouble is you keep repeating them.....

Try to be broad minded, think of little else !

Remember, Jock McPerv was so mean he used to reverse charge his obscene telephone calls.

Scots have a sense of humour, because it's a gift !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 09:57 - ID#207145)
Just between you and I, just before Thanksgiving is my entry point.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:00 - ID#207145)
Scots named scoch blocks too remember

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:09 - ID#369352)
Mike Shelling - Market
Mike, I agree with you...this market will not crash right away...the phsycology of the investment community has not changed yet...just a little scared...If the selling continues from here, it will be followed by an upswing recovery ( Bull Trap ) to complete the market top...It's too early to give up the ghost from the investors point of view...they're still greedy and until that changes, this market will not crash. Most crashes happen on continued day after day in 1929, 1987...look at your charts and you will see what I mean. But from here on out...sell the rallies...they are all bull traps. This market is over, but nobody told the bulls.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:11 - ID#432221)
Haggis, wouldn't surprise me, the pediatritian that perfomed the procedure
was only makin' $3.75/hr. + TIPS! Nothing personal, Sir!!
I have discussed you with one o' my good friends at work, Bert, whose a thick accented Scot, he told me what "haggis" is. Here in Texas, we don't eat that sorta stuff.
Respectful regards ... gb

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:14 - ID#35571)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:20 - ID#39862) offense, but.....
If there is ever a price on your head, take it !

You may never find yourself in "Who's Who", but you will certainly find yourself in "What's That" !!!!

Go the Dow...... I am down under ?!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:20 - ID#39862) offense, but.....
If there is ever a price on your head, take it !

You may never find yourself in "Who's Who", but you will certainly find yourself in "What's That" !!!!

Go the Dow...... I am down under ?!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:23 - ID#39862)

And remember........

You shouldn't worry what people think about you, if you knew how seldom they do !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:24 - ID#432221)
Haggis, neener neener neener

L. Long
(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:26 - ID#245113)
New U.S. $20 bill debuts in September

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:27 - ID#369352)
To All: Rating Agency Announces Caution on US Debt
USA Today: "Rating agency IBCA warned tuesday that the USA is living beyond its means and said a weaker stock market and dollar would likely be the result."..."..The economy as a whole is becoming too dependent on foreign capital to finance Growth". "Gov't data shows the USA owed the rest of the world $1.3 Trillion at the end of 1997"...Anybody want to guess what it is now?..."foreign investors held more than 37% of US Gov't debt." "Moody's John Lonske says a big sell-off of US Treasuries bonds by foreigner holders is not a threat if US investors are prepared to step in and buy what's sold. But if they're not, Watch out, he says."...Interesting how the US Treasury announced the issue of $1,000 notes today to help the small investor get into the bond market...suck 'em in, take all their money and then kick 'em in the A**.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:29 - ID#369352)
US Debt
Of that $1.3 Trillion Dollars of Bonds sold to foreigners, 50% are owned by Japan, Britian, and Germany. Anybody want to guess who will be selling them first?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:42 - ID#401460)

CNBC will have a Gold discussion next hour.

December Gold

8/5/98 7:29 293.60 f


Steve in TO__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:43 - ID#209265)
JTF - Just a quick note . . .
you mentioned that it's a good thing people can't operate the ionsphere-lightning dynamo. Unfortunately, that's exactly what the HAARP project is all about. The military claims it's only about communications and weather research, but they probably have a Tesla-weapons agenda as well. There could be very undesirable effects on the environment. The Russians had a similar project underway, but I don't know if they still do.

It's enough to make you move to the southern hemishere!

- Steve

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:44 - ID#57232)
Spring and fall modulation of Human response to summer activity
Steve in To: What I know is that human activity tends to increase during rising solar activity, which tends to cause the markets and commodities to go up. It is possible that the Spring/fall solar effect could up modulate everything a bit -- until lets say late October. Could be part of the reason why markets tend not to do so well in the late fall, when the solar effect fades.
I am being very approximate in this -- the precise mechanism in all of this is unknown -- the correlation study I did was done only over the last 100 years.
I will gladly let everyone know about the sunspot effects from 1800-1900, if someone can direct me to daily or weekly stock/commodity index data from that period.
By the way, my tidal indicator was at an 18.6 or so year high last
April. That tends to indicate broad turning points. Given our situation, a broad peak I would guess -- this year. I could expand on this data as well if I had stock indices from 1800-1900.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:52 - ID#207145)
Fourth quarter will be strong. How much do you want to bet?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:54 - ID#207145)
I just bought some gold NEM
My first purchase of the year. Bought at 18.688 God help me.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:55 - ID#57232)
Steve in To: Many years ago I worked with an agency that tried to modify the Ionosphere -- locally. Don't recall the name, but I had access to the results of that work. The power levels were much too low to affect anything significantly. I suspect the same with HAARP. Now -- affecting communications in a very small area -- that might be different. A nuclear event would do it too - briefly. Steady - state human efforts at changing the Earth's weather are still minuscule on a artificial watt per natural watt business. Just think about all the energy bottled up in a single big thunderstorm.
I will certainly take notice if someone is cooking the Ionosphere on a continental scale -- the result on the weather might be surprising - I doubt anyone knows what would happen. Might be like the effect of a solar flare.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 10:56 - ID#354133)
Anyone know anything about VANGUARD gold/metals funds? Performance? Prognostications?

Any scoop on what PLATINUM is doing? Now that Russia has signed delivery contracts with Japan, should we expect price dippies? Michael's short reco may be worth looking into..?..

Anyone played with the S&P 500 MINI CONTRACTS?


(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:01 - ID#373284)
gag, gag, gag, its enough to make an American lurch...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:03 - ID#373284)
any media concentrating on Monica is OBVIOUSLY a CLINTLER propaganda partner

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:04 - ID#57232)
England heading for recession
All: Back to topic. Yesterday I learned that the British are very worried about a pending recession. I think that would mean interest rates on the Pound would be coming down to grease the 'fiat currency' wheels. If US rates are kept at their current rate, I would predict a 'flight to safety' to other currencies, including the US dollar.
What about Germany and France? Anyone know? Are they about to raise rates, or lower them? My intuitive guess is that the US dollar will not fall in a big way, even if the US markets twitch. US treasuries are still attractive if things are worse elsewhere. But, just wait until a solid economic recovery hits some major portion of the world economy -- then the US dollar will head down. The old musical chairs bit again.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:04 - ID#242325)
Nikkei flat despite Wall Street plunge. Still think the next big bull will be in selected Japanese stocks. A huge base and overrwhelming pessimism.

RJ: I think the problems you have had with some here ( including me in the past ) is that you are incorrectly perceived to be an ideologically committed gold bear who wants to see POG go into the toilet. Sort of like Bear Stearns chief economist Wayne Angell who jumps with joy whenever POG gets smashed and wants the price top drop to levels such that only the most efficient producers can make a profit.

You are only the messenger.. But sometimes the messenger gets shot even if he is only calling it as he sees it.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:06 - ID#373284)
And the blood of those who serve to protect will be on Clintler's hands...NO QUESTION

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:07 - ID#411259)
..... Gunny .....

I wish you boatloads of luck with your platinum shorts.

The gap is at $362, so look to reverse there. Also, remember that platinum made its biggest move last year AFTER contracts were signed between Russia and Japan.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:09 - ID#373284)
EnviroWhore Gore is a pissant and a shame on the Great people of TN...,2326,201980803-14267,00.html

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:13 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Now looking like Dec gold may see 290 today. Could be a Don't-scare-away-the-dippies / re-build confidence day.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:16 - ID#242325)
Yahoo reports that Abbey Cohen still bullish. Is that why we are bouncing this morning?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:17 - ID#350179)
DOW up 0.87% 8562
XAU up 1.15% 63.35

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:17 - ID#207145)
US Treasuries have had their run.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:18 - ID#207145)
Old Gold
Abbey Josef Cohen is a joke. US Supertanker crap.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:20 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Old Gold -- PPT and MFs at work. They have to save their jobs and will attempt to do so with all resources at hand. Besides, this is a good area for a test/retest of some neckline numbers.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:21 - ID#411259)
..... Correction .....

The Dow officially "corrected" 10% as of the quick 70 point drop on the open.
I don't think that that is the reason for the bounce back this AM.
But if it holds here, this would be considered healthy, yes?


(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:22 - ID#207145)
In other words
The market is oversold

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:23 - ID#254269)
Clinton................been scanning the overnight posts and Nicodemus at 1.29
made a real good point. Clinton may actually "like" the attention re Monicagate etc, because it takes "everyone's eye off the ball" re a lot of the "other stuff". It's a little bit like the three pea trick. Oops, where is it now ?

One of the problems with much of the WJC story is that "there are so many stories" that it diffuses the efforts of prosecutors. Ask any ordinary Joe about the Clintons and most people would say "that no-one could be THAT bad".

I'm really starting to think that the "sheer multitude of investigations works in the guy's favor."

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:23 - ID#207145)
Get serious. It's going much further down.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:23 - ID#350179)
JTF - satellite hazards in addition to EMP's coming Nov.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:25 - ID#207145)
Next stop 8315.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:25 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- Depends on how you define healthy. If you mean that it re-establishes upside momentum that was a bit 'tarnished' yesterday, then that wold be 'healthy' for another upmove. But what would really be healthy is more realistic P/E ratios etc.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:27 - ID#369352)
Tolerant1 @ 11:01 - GAG GAG GAG
I agree...I can't stand reading it any more...It makes me sick...especially Mrs. Clinton...what a jerk! And did you see the party guest list...Martha Stuart...All the rest may be good actors/producers but really bad on character identification....but I guess in hollywood, they all lie and cheat, so why should he be penalized by it...what an A** Ho*e Clinton is...I really feel safe sleeping at night knowing he is at the helm.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:27 - ID#207145)
Bonds, dollar have had it
living on luck, borrowed time. String has run out. Japs to sell the hell out of bonds.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:35 - ID#287129)
Media trying to calm DOW investors...
On network news ( radio ) , the announcer just claimed that investors should not get worried, because the DOW dropped worse last October than it did yesterday. He then reminded listeners that the Year to Date increase is already 7% - and advised listeners: "If you STAY IN FOR THE LONG HAUL, you will ALWAYS make money." How will people feel about such advice if the DOW tanks rather than corrects? In this litigious society, I would hate to be in their shoes...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:37 - ID#187109)
Mike Sheller......agulp&puff
Thank you. I was getting tired of scrolling. I am a little saddened that you cannot spend more time here. I trust you are soooo busy with your current projects and making too much money that it prohibits you from this......this Kitco. Good on ya Mate! We will meet in Byant Park for 'martians'....... ( bombay of course ) .....and someday soon I hope. Namast amigo. smack the white ball around

kuston - come outta the heat and join me.....the weather should be in the high 80's with a slight ocean breeze to cool things down. Perfect conditions for the power fade..........time for boom boom ;- ) SMACK!

go plat....

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:39 - ID#147201)
Steve in TO re Haarp etc
How about emailing me I may have a source of info for you. Charlie

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:40 - ID#7568)

If you are going to be in the NYC area let me know. Maybe we can chase the little white ball.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:42 - ID#411259)
..... HenryD .....

Relax fella' your words seem so. so . terse.
I have nothing to say to you that you have not said to me first.
I do not find you interesting, so I tend to skip your posts.

Rest assured brave HenryD
Your name will not cross my keyboard again
For there is naught but what HenryD says is so
And HenryD in a paragon of even fairness
And HenryD is ALWAYS a moral fellow
Because HenryD wants people to be fair to each other
And HenryD scolds those who he does not like
I guess HenryD is the Internet equivalent of a teacher
Who raps her unruly students knuckles with a ruler
So, as I laboriously type these words
With knuckles bloodied by HenryD
I am truly sorry I ever read the name of HenryD
Buy I never addressed HenryD once
Until HenryD rapped my poor knuckles O so many times
I am convinced that HenryD does not like me.
This is good and just and as it should be
For I have no use for a thing called HenryD.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:43 - ID#57232)
Swing Chart bottom? Denver.
sharefin: My guess is that the US markets are bottoming soon, and may rally for a monmth or so -- until the fall. My guess is that England and Europe are in no position to challenge the leadership of the US dollar at the current time.
Unless there is bad news about WJC. I have learned over the years that he has the lives of a cat.
On your Denver Airport post -- disturbing. I will certainly investigate the next time I am in Denver -- certainly was an odd choice of pictures -- focus on death, not life? Personally I doubt the author. Al Blielec ( sp? ) of Philadelphia/Montauk fame is a fruitcake, or pretending to be one -- perhaps this guy is made from the same mold.
By the way, we should all keep tabs on the gravity anomaly data. Alot of this is classified, but if there is any truth to the rumors about tunnels and bases underground, they will show up somewhere on the net. We just need to be patient. By the way, if the Denver Airport is to be the New World Order Headquarters, they sure had a lousy PR launch. Inept planning, that.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:44 - ID#373403)
Never believed this existed until I just recieved my first ever fax from Yahoo in the form of an article which polled several large funds ( Fidelity, Janus, etc. ) about yesterdays action. Thay all called it an anomoly and said fund inflows were positive across the board.

Why would Yahoo, who could just e-mail me, go to the trouble of faxing this? Why would Yahoo feel it necessary at all to send this calming report from Reuters? Are they now market participants instead of a communication company?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:45 - ID#187109)
gee....what is your take on this US stock market?

I didn't get it the first twelve thousand posts........can you use a little discretion? kindly...... now read about someone asking me how Disney is doing like they couldn't look it up for them-damn-selves......yawn.......gee let me help those who can't help themselves........ ( EB always a giver ) .......

to the course...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:46 - ID#19870)
@ D.A.
Hi! Please talk to us about silver. Thanks.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:46 - ID#224363)
@RJ (..... HenryD .....)
Even I found that last post of yours funny....

But please everyone, can we stop the mud slinging !!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:48 - ID#30116)
L. Long
You have to include the http:// to create a link to the URL. Thanks for intro to the new and UGLIER Twenty....... Monopoly Money....

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:49 - ID#375108)
Old Gold
Yes, Goldman Sachs trucked Abbey Joseph Cohen out this morning to say stocks were undervalued. That is not the only reason the market is up but it has helped. SnP futures promptly jumped about four points after her pronouncement. Like her or not, she has been bullish and correctly so, and the sheeple listen to her. I'm a goldbug with NO Dow stocks ( unfortunately ) , but I don't see this market falling into oblivion. That is your belief too, I believe.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:51 - ID#187109)
count on it.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:51 - ID#411259)
..... PMF .....

I agree entirely


(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:52 - ID#57232)
Perseid shower
MM: Thanks. I saw this several years ago from a mountaintop 20 miles away from the city. Beautiful. This time it appears Aug 11-14 are the best dates, but the fading moon phase will make the light a bit faint. Little disruption of satellite communication expected by NASA -- I would agree. Spectacular anyway.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:52 - ID#35571)
All on track
If we are going to take the DOW down about a hundred a day, then yesterday got a little out of hand. Now let's get this dude back on trend.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:53 - ID#187109)
byant park
= bryant park

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:55 - ID#350179)
JTF - My brother-in-law works with the computers over at DIA - he made it a point to show us all the symbolisms which he found "wierd" in the stone work.

Iraqi parliament votes freeze on UN arms checks

The Hermit
(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:55 - ID#369247)
Just FWIW below are some interesting URLs regarding the HAARP. It is rumored the site at Pine Gap in Australia is a sister site to the HARRP site in Alaska. The Nikola Tesla technology is an interesting study indeed. The site at Pine Gap is also rumored to have Tesla's earthquake technology in use.

These are interesting times! Got GOLD?

The Hermit

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:58 - ID#350179)
I was more concerned about the Leonid shower
Once or twice every 33 years the earth passes through a dense stream of debris from periodic comet 55P/Tempel-Tuttle. The result is a spectacular display of 1,000 to 200,000 meteors per hour. The next severe Leonid meteor storm is due this November, and satellite operators are devising stretegies to protect their hardware. Antennas, cameras, and other delicate instruments will be be turned away from the expected stream of particles to minimize damage.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:58 - ID#411259)
..... Steve in TO .....

Interesting report about Russia.
There would seem to be a rub, though
Nobody knows how much gold they have
Or where it is kept
I cannot imagine that this gold scheme
Would be attractive to outside investors
Unless the gold is independently stored by a neutral third party.
Like the some who wonder about the gold in Ft. Knox
Everybody wonders where the Russian gold is

And where it is not

(Wed Aug 05 1998 11:59 - ID#252150)
Steve in TO@Oct. crashes
I think that the simple explanation is that Q3 earnings disappoint & investors throw in the towell. Q3 seems to be a slow Q for the techs & they lead the S&P. Also, with the days getting shorter, flowers & plants expire, & most people start to feel a little gloomy. I'm starting to feel a little gloomy now just thinking about it, & we don't really have a winter to speak of in Victoria.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:00 - ID#36156)
PMF - I agree. Now, if we could only follow your advice...
Time, and a few more 404's, will tell.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:00 - ID#427357)
Dear Abbey...

We've had the 'Folly'
Now the 'Frenzy'
Soon the 'Fear'

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:05 - ID#410198)
Boston Business Journal...FED IS STOCKPILING CURRENCY ......Question?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:06 - ID#287312)
Shorts gaining confidence, no short covering
to speak of so far, Dow now +48. This looks very bearish to me.
I'd about bet on a sell off this afternoon.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:06 - ID#411259)
..... That's Just Swell .....

I am taking an extremely well deserved day off
The stops are tight, the shorts are covered
Platinum and silver seem to be holding
And there is a hurricane to the south and west
Swells have been running between 8 - 15 feet

Bought a new ocean kayak this week
One of those Cobras, a bright yellow dart
Have not the opportunity to drop it in the water yet
So I am ocean bound.

Gonna watch the waves from the backside today
And bob about in the swell
I think it will be


(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:07 - ID#348127)

I like to guage investor sentiment by a handful of my co-workers. For the last few years I have listened to their successes as their market gains have blown me away. Meanwhile I continued to buy gold and gold stocks ( and getting beaten up every step of the way ) . I can remember the Dow blowing past 6000 -7000 -8000 and 8500. At each of these junctures the belief was that their was no stopping this market. Even last October did not scare these guys. But something has changed in the last few months. I don't know what it was, but it has made these guys start to wonder if the DOW could have an ugly side. They are not selling out yet, but I have felt the shift. And Abbey J.C. won't be able to sway them for too much longer.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:07 - ID#286224)
@MM : About meteors
Is it once or twice? There's a pretty big difference there.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:13 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- Sounds pretty 'swell'!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:13 - ID#57232)
MM: Could you get your brother-in-law to summarize the oddities? Especially structural. Mysterious large holes in the ground would be hard to cover up during the construction period. The odd choice of pictures attracts my attention less, although it says alot about the person who chose the art.
I do know that secrets can be kept in the US government -- if the knowledge is highly compartmentalized. But then, few people can know about the secrets. Catch 22. Just listened to a military man who died recently talk on Art Bell's show just before his death. He claimed to have seen alien artifacts, the knowledge of which had to be kept secret from our own CIA, and a number of other agenceis due to numerous ( Russian ) moles post WWII. He would quietly take bits and pieces to labs that had a chance of learning something from the artifacts. Plausible. His claim was that only 5% of the devices/materials collected were ever understood make sense also. Unfortunately, we may never know if this stuff really exists. If various governments have alien artifacts -- given my knowledge of human nature -- it is very likely that few people know about them. Too bad. Many of the smartest humans do not work for the government -- and many do not have graduate degrees. Though that helps.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:15 - ID#316256)
PPT and all the stock they'll eventually own.
I don't think we have discussed the long term effects of the PPT and its surrogates owning all this stock. Indeed they will be buyers at critical times to create an orderly decrease in the market, however in the end they will own tons of stock. Will they hold onto it and sell in the next bull market, or will they ultimately sell it and drive the market even lower than it normally would go. I'd like to see some insight on this issue. What is everyone's opinion?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:16 - ID#350194)
Kitcoite Meeting in T.O.
Hello All, and especially Steve in TO ( saw your post this A.M. ) . I've been out of town since the Kitcoite dinner last Thursday night in downtown Toronto and I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but a great time was had by all, including Mooney, Steve in TO, Rhody, Sam A, and of course Reify and his lovely wife. Congratulations to Sam A the honoured guest who received the Auracious Award for Golden Oratory sent up especially for the occcasion from New Zealand by Aurator. ( Six Pak - I'm holding a button for your collection, also from Aurator. Catch you at the next meeting. )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:20 - ID#287312)
1929 Gold shares !
I noticed on a chart that it was nearly a year after the 1929 crash before gold shares began to take off. However the price of gold was fixed at the time. The move should be much quicker with Gold now capable of a serious up move.
It will soon be time me thinks to sell the Dec98 PUTS and buy Gold shares. I love this game : )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:29 - ID#354133)
Thanks RJ,

You have to admit, there was a downturn in platinum prices over the last couple of weeks or so.

Are you still following the yen-platinum correlation that you presented last year?

Is there any historcal data concerning how platinum demand ( and silver for that matter ) reacted to market crashes ( say the Oct '87 one ) and any of recessions? I would think that demand for the high ticket items that require platinum ( autos, fuel cells, etc. ) in ailing economic situations would reduce industrial demand for it.

.... and Speaking of boats ( hee, hee ) - I like to fish, too.... Got a great marinate recipe for grilling big filets like Mahi Mahi, grouper, snapper, et al. MMMmmmm, yummy..... If there's ever interest in a Kitco get together in Destin, Florida - I can arrange it. Fishing, golfing, scuba diving, thong-gawking ... All the really banal tourist activities...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:32 - ID#411259)
..... Gunny .....

You really this fumpy is a used car salesman?

Hmmmmmmm, I'll give this some thought.

I will.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:38 - ID#286230)
Suspicious (1929 Gold shares !)
An other interpretation of Gold shares' performance during the early '30's is that they would have fallen with everything else if the US Gov had not first fixed the price gold and then raised it--thereby mandating a profit by gov intervention. Do you know anything about this view?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:40 - ID#335379)
Gore learns from Klinton, a little slow but he's catching on,
Hello Tolerent One:
It seems our chief greenee has learned to steal issues from the opponent and lie about his intentions before an election. Only to dupe the voters ( again ) and do the opposite. Yea right sure, Gore for privacy?! When Politicains have thier hand in your pocket they want to have everything else as well$
I am still convinced that the best thing that could happen to the USA is a large eastern earthquake that sinks Washington DC into the Atlantic. They have no clue as to what makes this country work or the fact that we need critical review of legislation not more of it! One of my biggest beefs is that 68% of USA is employed by the small or self employed. And most regulations pushed through the green groups are aimed at eliminating the small guy while the big players get out of tough regulation. In my home town the big fish ,HP Xerox, etc. pay little or no property tax compared to home owners and small bus. because of prop 13 ( CA ) . Sorry for sounding off, just sick of the deception and shell games. When I was younger I thought that money was always made in one way, exchange goods and services.
It took me 35 years to learn of the other way, make a law that says whats yours is mine, through the prossess of making up new games, telling the public only one tenth of the rules and outcomes, while hiding the money-circulating results from John-Q.. IE Fed inflation, stock market, media, exchange rates, etc. Thank heaven for Kitco. The good book says that truth is opressed but what is whispered in secret will be shouted from the rooftops: )
Ps: I mean no offense to honest green causes, there are many. I just dislike the centralisation of ecoligicalism and the imense power it wields.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:41 - ID#266105)

This was mentioned earlier, interesting.

USA's 'AAA' Rating Affirmed, But Asset Prices Vulnerable
Fitch IBCA-London-4 August 1998: Fitch IBCA, the international rating agency, today affirmed its
long-term local and foreign currency ratings of 'AAA' for the United States of America. The short-term
ratings of 'F1+' are also affirmed. These ratings apply to the senior unsecured debt issues of the
government of the United States.

But the agency highlighted the continuing growth in the external debt of U.S. residents. Nearly all of it is
short term or in the form of readily marketable securities. The current account deficit is now widening
as the Asian crisis and the near 20% rise in the real exchange rate over the past two years begin to
take their toll. Cumulative capital inflows have already put the investment income account into deficit
and continued accumulation of external debt at the rates of recent years cannot be sustained
indefinitely. When investors reassess the position, a correction in the real exchange rate-and in
securities prices-seems inevitable.

Recent U.S. government estimates of the country's international investment position show that at the
end of 1997 it had net external debts of USD1,640bn, or nearly 140% of current external receipts-a
high figure among industrial countries, and greater than that for Mexico, for example. The gross debt is
rising even more quickly, increasing the sensitivity of U.S. asset prices to shifts in the resources
available to foreign investors-and to changes in their mood. For instance, the proportion of U.S. public
debt held by foreigners has surged to 38%, after being steady at around 20% in the years to 1994.
And the capital inflows continue: net foreign purchases of U.S. securities other than Treasuries surged
to a new record in the first quarter of 1998.

The net external debt continues to grow and could reach 180% of current external receipts and exceed
25% of GDP by the end of next year. To change the trend will require a marked increase in domestic
savings, but personal savings are weaker than for fifty years. The saving ratio in the first half of this
year was only 1%, and households continue to accumulate debt. Some of this borrowing has been
used to finance asset purchases, helping to boost real estate and securities prices. These prices have
been based on projections of growth of the economy and of corporate earnings that may prove
unjustified. The federal government's own finances are looking healthier than for three decades, with
the budget forecast to move into surplus this year. There must, however, be doubts that projections of
growing surpluses over the next ten years will be realised, as the present position owes much to
economic growth which may prove to be more cyclical than structural, and to low inflation having cut
interest costs. Even so, the ratio of general government debt to GDP should soon ease back below

The improvement in the federal government's own finances means that local sovereign credit risk
remains minimal. Despite the weak external asset position, foreign currency transfer risk is also still
small. If capital inflows do dry up, the dollar will be allowed to fall in the foreign exchange market.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:43 - ID#147201)
It looks like this thing is related to Tesla's Colorado spgs experiment. What do you think? Email if necesary. Thanx, Charlie

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:48 - ID#288369)
Your post to T#1.........YES! YES! YES! Salud Maximus to YA!!! and a Gulp& a Puff to YA!!! I used to like the color green. no more.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:52 - ID#350179)
SWP1 - Very good point - I missed that. ( I just cut n paste, man ; )
for more Leonid info than I wanted:

JTF - His was more a superficial tour - no mention whatsoever of tunnels, hidded chambers etc. He just pointed out designs in the flooring and such. But I will ask him if he's heard of any legends/rumours.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 12:58 - ID#286253)
@ all - Firm Bids and fickle specs.

This may be old news but the bounce in gold yesterday was in large part due to the open interest numbers for Monday. These were reported to be up 12,000 contracts - all fresh shorts.

It's taking more & more to hammer the price which is responding less and less. There are some very firm bids beneath this market. Demand is deep. When the fickle specs get tired and decide to move on to the next target, the shorts will be unwound and away we go.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:04 - ID#354133)
Arj -
Nah, the F*umpster's just a dead horse. Just like ANOTHER. And LGB. And Henry_D's got a concussion after that post.

What'd you use, a kayak paddle? Or a Kookaburra/paper-weight?

BTW, could I interest you in an '84 Vette?


(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:07 - ID#317193) playing with those levers?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:09 - ID#411259)
..... Gunny .....

As you know I was quite vocal in my support of platinum at $400. Then it dropped $50, so my record on platinum is not good in the last three months or so. I bought a lot near $350 and took them out near $395. Unfortunately for some, the $350 was a cost average and the $45 profit was offset by the higher priced platinum we still had from above $400. I managed to get out will small to modest profit though, so I am thankful for that. I held on to other longs because the potential for an explosion upwards is ever present.

Regarding demand for industrial metals. You are right on in your concerns regarding a drop in future demand. Platinum jewelry sales are way off in Japan. JM reported that this was offset by increased demand from China, but CPM came out and predicted just shy of 100K ounce decrease in demand this year.

One thing I find heartening in platinum is its tendency to rise faster than gold when gold takes off. A severe stock crash would undoubtedly affect consumption of platinum, but gold will make a quick upwards move, giving platinum a short term kick in the rear. Plenty of time to get out of the position before the price collapses.

The real and present danger of any industrial metal is the unexpected announcements that would affect its price. Maybe somebody found a way to use less silver in standard photography. Maybe a brand new platinum deposit is discovered in New Mexico, and proves to have more reserves that the rest of the world. Remember, a couple years ago, the story of the platinum coated car radiator? Ford put some big bucks into it. The idea was to coat the radiator with a platinum oxide. This would have the effect of actually changing the ozone that passes by into oxygen, The car would actually be eating the smog from the car in front.

Anyway, the story leant support to platinum and a nice rally ensued. Later when it was reported that this technology would be abandoned, the POP took a plunge. This is the ever present danger of an industrial metal. But that is the nature of the beast. If you want to play those, the possibility will always be there that an unexpected announcement will affect the price.

As for a get-together to boat and fun and sun and thong in the sunny climes of Florida, count me in. Lets wait until fall though. Ive experienced the humidity of the Southeast in the summer, and I would not want to travel that road again. I might be making a trip to The Bahamas this fall, which would put me nearly on your doorstep. I warn you though, I cannot golf. I can talk about it all day long, as my dad was a golf fanatic and I grew up caddying for him, but I do not have the golf gene, which is strange because I thought the golf gene was hereditary. Maybe it is passed down from the mothers side of the family. I am down for the other pursuits though.

Does your offer of a get together include firing off thousands of rounds of auto and semi auto ammo? You supply the weapons, I will buy the ammo. On second thought, I think it would be dangerous to put guns in the hands of a collected group of Kitcoites. It would probably look like Dodge City before long.

OK, so no guns

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:09 - ID#373284)
Many years ago I read a two part story ( consecutive issues ) wherein the author
specifically and in very detailed fashion examined and then dissected the environmental movement and ultimately arrived at the conclusion that it was merely the greening of the Reds. ( communists ) Now that may sound far fetched, however, I would like to point out that M. Gobachev is the head of Green Cross International.

Centralized anything is another pathetic attempt by small and narrow minded groups that wish to impose man's will against nature and the cosmos. For some the power of Nature, others God...

However, no matter how you wish to look at our place in the Universe it is clear there are greater powers, minds, entities etc. I have always found it odd that the centralized spouting pissants never come to the realization that the beauty and wonder of earth, as a specific, is the tremendous range of diversity.

Mankind ( f_ck the politically correct, oh that felt good! ) has never once created anything original, not once. Science has cloned, but never once from a blank sheet created an ant...

Environementalism as a science is a hollow, droll and poorly veiled attempt to control the thinking of individuals that have never known a book or a trip to the library...

EnviroWhore Gore...political spore, no more, than a political whore...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:11 - ID#333127)
Speaking about platinum. This may be old news to a lot here but I just learned that Honda has a car for 99 without a catalyic converter, anybody have any info????

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:13 - ID#147201)
2BRO2B Debt rating
What if the numbers are cooked?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:20 - ID#373284)
aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...HABE's share price!!!
I have lost 2 1/100ths of a penny!!!...aghhhhhhhhh!!! Oh woe is me...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:20 - ID#147201)
tolerant1 re 2 part story
A whale of an indictment on the politically correct ( naturally incorrect ) incompetents who follow the line of lucifer. Many thanx, Charlie

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:23 - ID#342376)
Is trading today on the NYSE. The symbol is AU ( gotta love it )

Cage Rattler
(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:25 - ID#33184)
The Financial Trader - Gold Analysis (slightly out of date)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:26 - ID#35571)

No, I've been kind of busy and not much time for levers. Anything special you would like me to play?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:28 - ID#373284)
chas, Namaste' Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...yes, they are a sad lot...
oh well, their kind will always be with us...I guess cause the rest of us never think in terms of exterminating things or people...pity them but never take any crap from them either eh...gulp to ya buddy...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:32 - ID#288369)
@T#1..........the golden rays of the sun....
have chosen to be amalgamated with the greatest matter of the earth and have manifested themselves as a golden, ohmy, I humbly hold in my hand the treasure of Kitco. These great plains I call home have a new golden glimmer with which the Sun must now share worship.

Si!!! Viva El Sombrero! Viva Amor! Viva Kitco! y Viva Mi Gran Amigo!!! El Tolerant! Un Gran Gulpo y un Gran Puffo a YA!!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:36 - ID#254269)
Monica to appear before Grand Jury on Thursday.
Harold Ickes testifying today.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:44 - ID#254269)
Studio, R; ................we're freezing down here ! It's only .............................
98 degrees. Can't get used to this !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:46 - ID#373284)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulp and a puff at ya...there is only one down side though...
now you know my hat size...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:49 - ID#262351)
How do I get a quote on AU? I had FSCNY which changed symbol to ANGDY. Is this now AU? What happened?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:51 - ID#36156)
gunrunner - Concussion?
Hardly, sir.

The gentleman just wanted to get the last word in.

HenryD ( Go Gold )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:51 - ID#411259)
..... Gunny .....

In 1987 silver went to $11 and platinum was well above $600. I will need to look at a platinum chart to see whether the move happened in response to the crash.

Silver, however, responded to the S & L crisis with an explosive, albeit short lived, rally. I think a crash in the Dow would not do it alone. The lemmings will continue their march. Higher interest rates ( not too high, or they compete with gold for investment dollars ) and higher inflation will need to be added to the equation before gold will perform better than it has.

I saw you have had some experience with the Mockers. The three fuzzy little chicks are stating to get the wing feathers, and have learned to cheep in the last three days. Whenever I walk up to the nest, all three heads pop up, with mouths wide open. I explain to them that mom is a much better cook than I and they just go back to sleep. I think they are growing accustomed to the sound of my voice. I know imprinting happens when the chicks see mom for the first time, but maybe there was a bit of imprinting left over and they now consider me.. dad?

I like the little guys, and my patio has become the place to visit as friends stop by to take a gander. Any suggestions for names? Suggested already were, Hughy, Dewey, and Louie. Also, Larry, Moe, and Curly, but these are not original enough.

Perhaps I should call the smallest fellow platinum for, although he is the smallest, he has strength to climb up and get food and compete with its larger siblings. Next in line would be silver, because he is very restless and is wont to move up and down all the time for no apparent reason. Lastly, little gold chicky is my favorite. He ( she? ) has a noble luster in his eye and a calm and regal manner.

I think we may be able to prognosticate these markets based on these three little chicks. When it comes time to learn to fly, I will keep you informed as to which bird ( metal ) is a natural and which have trouble mastering their wings. Why not use this method? Seems to make as much sense as any other Ive heard.


When do these little guys learn to fly? They are about 10 days old now.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:55 - ID#288369)
we're in the eighties again today.....WoW what a relief! Hope Big D. gets its well deserved break SOON!!! salud!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:55 - ID#342376)
@ Bridge
You can get a quote from Yahoo on Anglogold ( AU ) I clicked on the symbol and you can only get a one day chart. That seems to indicate it started trading today on NYSE. If my memory serves me, AGOLY was the symbol for Anglogold while it was trading on the OTC BB. Then Anglogold found a bank to sponser its ADR's so it could get listed on the NYSE. I don't know what happened to ANGDY but AU has got to be the best symbol for a gold mining stock.

Cage Rattler
(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:56 - ID#33184)
"Iraq completely suspends its cooperation wht U.N. Special Commission within its current setup and the Internation Atomic Energy Agency," stated a press release following a meeting chaired by Saddam Hussien.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:57 - ID#354133)
RE: the platinum/palladiumless car - it was only a matter of time before this happened IMHO. If you've ever been jacked around by a supplier ( any product, but in this case the Russkies with their plat & paladium ) , you either find a new supplier or you invest your R&D dollars into replacement materials. Am interested in more details also.

Arj - Ten-four on the southern heat & humidity ( ugh! ) . Autumn is rather nice down here weather wise... The beach thong-watch is not as much fun, tho. All the pretty little half-nekkid redneck wimmen can't handle the indigenous seasonal bugs. This area is also known as LA ( lower Alabama ) and Redneck Riviera. BTW,I don't play golf either. Just thot I'd throw that out for the golfers. Be careful in the kayak - remember Teddo....

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:57 - ID#266105)

chas ( 2BRO2B Debt rating ) ID#147201:
What if the numbers are cooked?


Don't know about cooked, certainly confusing. For
example it was reported in the WSJ yesterday that the
Treasury managed to pay down $97B of the forecast $110B
debt reduction in the Apr-Jun quarter, including the
non-marketable securities issued to the social security
trust fund. A visit to the Treasury web page and its
figures reveals nothing of the sort.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 13:59 - ID#431263)
Only two more hours to DUMP!!!! DUMP!!!! DUMP!!!! Heh..heh...heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:01 - ID#431263)
460 NEW LOWS !!!!
And only 7 ( COUNT 'EM, DIPSTERS! ) 7 new highs!!!! Heh..heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:03 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:03 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:08 - ID#411259)
..... Just announced from Bagdad: .....

Saddam Husien ( I know I spelled that wrong )

Is freezing cooperation with the UN.

Gunny, get the guns.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:16 - ID#316256)
I take no personal responsibility for this web site. The content is weird but the pictures are real.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:16 - ID#431263)
TICK -700!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:17 - ID#286234)
They gotta have some fairly well developed feathers to fly. I think they should jump in about 3-5 days. If they are timid and if they still fit, they will try to stay home longer. Most small perching birds like this don't fly very well at first and are very vulnerable to predators like house cats. The nest is on a balcony? Got cats around? The first few days after fledging they are easy to catch by hand. If you find the youngsters on the ground in a REALLY BAD situation, just take them back upstairs and put them anywhere on your balcony, otherwise don't intervene. Good luck.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:18 - ID#377196)
Some time in the future the dow will once again yield at least
6% and maybe a lot more. In 1932 ATT yielded 10% because everyone
was afraid that they would cut the dividend which they never did.

MJPL mentioned this in his early morning post and I would agree
totally in his analysis.

Boys and Girls this is going to be one hell of a bear market
before it is all over in 2002 to 2003.

Gold will be allowed to go up because the gov't will need tax
revenues from someplace!!!!! Everything else will be in the can....


Thanks, GD

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:18 - ID#350179)
Saddam H & UN
However, the president said he would exempt UN monitoring activities in Iraq from his decision on the condition that UN "personnel carry out the monitoring strictly respecting Iraq's sovereignty, security and its people's dignity."

Spud Master
(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:21 - ID#28586)
sigh ... idiot Saddam....
Saddam, you moron butcher, why give Clintler *ANY* excuse to start a war and divert our attention?

Saddam, you want to hurt Billy-Willy? Just smile and be all agreable to the NWO UN lackys crawling through Iraq.

Go on Iraqi TV and feign beatific intentions ... say things like

"I feel your pain, Iraqi" and

"this cooperation with the UN is an investment in our children", and

"i did not have sex with that camel".


(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:21 - ID#427357)
Gold Shares Vs Common Shares from 1929 On

REF "1929 Gold shares!" Comment by Suspicious

1998/99 Prognosis Based Upon 1929 Market Autopsy

There are charts showing price trends of DOW, DOW Utilities and Homestake Mining form 1924 to 1936.

It will be necessary to delete the letters "en" in word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:24 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:24 - ID#402148)
VRONSKY....HM had major strike(s) in the period you cite......

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:25 - ID#411259)
..... sam i am .....

If I touch one of the chicks, will not the mother refuse to care for it any longer, or is this an old wives tale? I don't think cats will be a problem, but the ravens are ever present. They eat eggs, yes? Do they eat chicks?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:26 - ID#373284)
Spud Master, Namaste' and a gulp to ya. Sad to say but we can do nothing on a
military level. Clintler will do nothing because he knows we may suffer devastating losses and he will not be able to blame it on anyone but himself...he has gutted the military...I say put Chelsea in some military greens and let her hit the beach right after Clintler and the First Bunt Cake...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:27 - ID#286230)
According to CNN
Monica goes to the Grand Jury tomorrow.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:27 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:31 - ID#242325)
rate cuts
I agree with Mike Sheller that it would be a mistake to get too bearish short-term right now. One thing we must remember is that Alan Greenspan can be expected to cut rates if the market falls much further. I suspect that the overly exhuberant stock market is the only reason hes has not yet reduced rates. But with exhuberance being replaced by fear, this constraint is or soon will be "gone with wind".

Of course ean easier monetary policy would not exactly hurt the price of gold either.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:31 - ID#373284)
Regarding the tasteless and ugly Denver Airport, did public money build that...
If it did we need to get a refund...awful ugly, if that is the NWO, YUK!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:34 - ID#242325)
With oil stocks plunging like stones, the market obviously does not expect US military action against Iraq.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:35 - ID#286234)
If you pick up a chick, momma will probably try to snatch it out out your hand to protect and take of it. ( Only very early in nest building will adults abandon an empty nest if they are harrassed too much. ) Ravens will try to eat the chicks sure, but nothing you can do about that. Mom and dad will fiercely attack a Raven and drive it away, hopefully.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:37 - ID#431263)
TICK -1270!!!!
THINK I'LL DUMP SOME MORE!!! Soros gettin' ready to DUMP HK $!! Don't dump it over here, George! We gotta' enough trouble findin' space to dump our DOW!! Heh...heh...heh!! DOWDUMP 60!!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:43 - ID#333127)
The next hour tells the tale.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:48 - ID#373284)
ya know, I been thinking, you folks are always looking for ways to pull cash out of
the system without being noticed. Write checks to some friends that own local whatevers...make up anything you want, on deposit...etc...wait for it to clear, go in and cancel, have them write a check to you, go to their local bank and voila, take the is a legal obligation for the bank to pay you...they can not get out of it...period...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:49 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:51 - ID#31876)
Jude Says Whe're In A Rare Period (P.O.G.) That Seldom Happens

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:51 - ID#264289)
If you are lurking, I would like to discuss some things privately, if you are willing. Re: Dr. Nader, etc.
I can be reached at:

(Wed Aug 05 1998 14:58 - ID#431263)
RUSSELL 2000 NOW BELOW 400 @ 395!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:07 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:10 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:11 - ID#348129)
In the recent past so-called "Corrections", the Dow quickly rallied after some steep losses.
It tried desperately to rally today, and failed.
This looks and smells like one ugly market coming up...........

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:12 - ID#431263)
AHHHHHH!! Maybe we'll get our DOWDUMP 100 QUOTA AFTER ALL!!!

Cage Rattler
(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:13 - ID#33184)
50% of last 10 posts by ONE PERSON !

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:13 - ID#432221)
Honorable CHEESEHEAD, from whence do the numbers come?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:14 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:15 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:16 - ID#432221)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:16 - ID#348129)
NASD - 34
DOW - 123
---- and falling fast......

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:16 - ID#354133)
Boids & stuff
Yes, be weary the cats. While I've seen momma and poppa physically engage the cat & intimidate other animals ( myself included ) , the parents can't always be everywhere when the kids need 'em. I found the remnants of one of my babies... prime suspect is the cat. I just figured out a name for the gnarly-ugly-old-she cat that I allow to hang around my homestead - Reno. She plays with snakes, kills little kids, runs from authority when confronted, and she's as gnarly-looking as her namesake. Reno the cat-bitch.

I was watching the 3 remaining mocking birds the other day and they are really entertaining. I let 'em have my plumb tomatoes. Now they're going for the muscadines and scuppernongs ( redneck grapes ) in my arbor. Red wine bird poop everywhere. Don't know if they're drunk or still learning to land correctly. Territoriality must come naturally to the mockers - the young 'uns were running off full grown doves!

Henery_D - Yeah, he does that sometimes. He can be a pain sometimes...

OK. 'Nuff wasted band width.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:18 - ID#333127)
to Old Gold
I'm starting to get very interested in oil.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:19 - ID#373284)
LeLand, Namaste' and a gulp to ya from the Island that is Long...JW is without
question not only interesting, but takes complex thoughts and lays them out in a manner which is easily understood. When this monster comes home to roost there will literal hell to pay...As I stated last night my heart goes out to people around the globe caught in this vicious financial cycle...and why...politics and greed...I will not pity the people here who snub their noses at the suffering and can only be consumed with their own greed...for when the bell doth toll they will be deafened by it...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:23 - ID#242325)
Rube: Oil service has been hit so hard of late -- the OSX down over 50% in three months and 10% the last two days -- that it even puts the huge post April plunge in gold stocks to shame. Unbelievable values for anyone who thinks oil will ever rebound.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:28 - ID#348127)


(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:30 - ID#287129)
Will the PM's resume moving north?
It seems like every time gold and/or silver begin to rally, the metals get stopped ( or shorted ) in their tracks. How will we know when they start a rally that will be for REAL? I thought that yesterday was the start of a genuine rally...and once again was disappointed.

What is the commone perception of today? Is it:
1. Profit-taking from a few longs and disillusioned gold bugs,
2. New shorting to stop the rally,
3. Wall Street "gurus" trying to scare people out of jumping from stocks into PM's, or
4. All of the above...

Aragorn III
(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:31 - ID#212323)
The flexing... the dumping... the stench... (unBEARable)
I look around, pondering... Where's the handle to FLUSH this place?

I jump to safety, hanging on the golden handle, watching the world swirl away beneath my dangling feet.

got a grip?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:32 - ID#350179)
Select Live Charts & enjoy (?)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:35 - ID#242325)
the action
Dow rebounding somewhat. Watch for hints of rate cuts if we break below 8000.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:37 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:38 - ID#350179)
Looks a mite bit suspicious to me
PPT to the rescue...
I mean really 100+ points in 25 minutes?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:40 - ID#431263)
We'll see how long they can hold it!!! Hehh...heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:41 - ID#348127)


(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:43 - ID#432221)
The last few days there have been repeated references to "PPT"

Gentlemen, pray tell, what is "PPT"? gb

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:43 - ID#431263)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:44 - ID#286230)
Looks like some things are seen to be a bargain

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:45 - ID#431263)
CRB gonna' test 198 before we bottom out over next 6-8 months! Gotta' hate that guy!! Heh...heh...heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:46 - ID#288186)
Comex warehouse totals....No changes to speak of....
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Aug. 5

Gold 1,104,536 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 79,136,133 + 0 troy ounces
Copper 55,781 + 62 short tons

N/A= Not available.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:47 - ID#431263)
THE INFAMOUS PLUNGE PROTECTION TEAM paid for by BC to keep the market from collapsing under his arsch!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:49 - ID#431263)
ALOT OF MARKET ON CLOSE BUY ORDERS!!! Heh...heh...heh...! Man can those PPT guys manipulate!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:50 - ID#350179)
Plunge Protection Team (We didn't make it up)

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:52 - ID#410198)
Grant...PPT....members..Greenspan,Rubin,Levitt,Clinton....FED,TREASURY,CONTROLLER OF CURRENCY,POTUS.
Four most powerful men on this sorry planet

Spud Master
(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:54 - ID#28586)
@PPT, computers and instant magic money....
don't worry lads, the hundreds of billions of "insti-cash" money the PPT is pouring into the market to FAKE a rise in the DOW will come home to roost very, very quickly in INFLATION.

They have a choice between a market crash now, or thirty minutes later, so to speak, and they are choosing to live for thirty minutes longer. Of course, the final market crash, when it comes, will be so much the more devastating.

Go ahead Alan and Robert, keep pouring PPT gasoline-money on to the funeral pyre of the DOW.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:55 - ID#424424)
I didn't ask the question, but thanks for the fast answer and the
lookup on PPT.

The folks on this discussion group are great!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:57 - ID#350179)
Dow stages modest rally - UP 59 points. ( Warm fuzzy for the flock )
Intraday movement is not usually looked at by most "investors" IMHO.

Spud Master
(Wed Aug 05 1998 15:58 - ID#28586)
I can hardly wait to ....
get home and watch the scrawny-necked talking-head pieces cluck & shriek about the "Dow magnificent gain today!"

"Bull Market still going strong!"

"We're over this correction! Money pouring back into the stock market!"

"Greatest victory in human history! Big Brother to address the Nation at 12"

ahem ... what is the AD? ( grin )


John Disney__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:00 - ID#24135)
The Dow just Dumped on..
Captain Limberger
and his amazing solo performance..
.. wall to wall velveeta ..

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:00 - ID#213265)
@the scene
So, Who didn't think that the PPT might not step in at some opportune moment to pull their fat out of the fire? The ONLY time they won't be there is when they DON'T want to be! This puts some 'comfort' level back in for the dipsters.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:03 - ID#287129)
Did PPT keep DOW from further slide?
Somehow I believe that one does not have to be a Wall Street guru to achieve the opinion that the DOW is being manipulated BIG TIME! The question is, how much longer can this manipulation last before people wake up to the fact that most conventional stocks are WAY overpriced???

...also, how long will it take for at least some of the mutual fund money managers to figure out that gold stocks and PM stocks are WAY UNDER valued???

Cage Rattler
(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:03 - ID#33184)
Competition ??
What about setting up a weekly forecasting competition where one must try to forecast the closing gold price and DJIA at the Friday close? All entries should be posted by Monday midnight.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:04 - ID#43349)
Maybe none of the above.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:05 - ID#431263)
PPT MATH 101--
HMMM! Let's see now! We want the DOW to go down SLOOOOOOOWLY at no more than 100 points per day. Since we let things get out of hand yesterday, we need to juice things up a little bit today. Let's see now
-300 +60 = -240 divded by 2 = 120!!! AW! SHUCKS! MISSED IT BY 40!! CLOSE ENOUGH FOR GOVT. GUYS!!! Heh..heh...heh..!

Gold Dancer
(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:07 - ID#377196)
Judging from all the wild swings in the market today it leaves
me to believe that the PPT is not so much interested in keeping the
market up ( they KNOW they can't do that for long ) but rather to:

1. Keep speculation to the downside to a minimum. I mean with
"those" guys out there even I won't play the downside in futures!!

2. Every up tick means someone can go short. And short positions
create future demand for stocks which is necessary to keep a
huge ( 2000 points a day ) crash from happening. Shorts can
and will take their profits on the downside knowing the PPT can erase
profits in a flash. The result is an "orderly" decline. At least
for now. Come October or late September....

3. My girl friend need more time to get all of her mutual funds
sold. She wants to see how they do. I just look at her with blank
eyes. She has sold 2/3's and bought a lot of DROOY so she is doing
ok. Not bad for a blond!!!


Thanks, GD

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:09 - ID#431263)
Perhaps His Dizziness should watch! If'n he can get CNBC down there in MANDELALAND! Heh..heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:12 - ID#431263)
Market 45% overvalued! Bernadette Murphy still bullish!!! Heh...heh...heh!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:13 - ID#433172)
Cage Rattler
Competition sounds like fun..What about anyone who wants to participate putting it in a post in one particular interval on Mondays. Limit it to the Spot price of gold on the Friday close US and the close of the DOW.

I'll bet anything I can out guess you.....except anything of value of course.


John Disney__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:17 - ID#24135)
I'd rather watch Mandela on TV..
than see any more posts from
his cheeziness .. captain amelia
( maybe you should wash that cheerleader
dress .. amelia .. it's got dump spots
all over it )
.. cis boom cheese..
nighty night amelia

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:20 - ID#431263)
Heh..heh..heh! I hear it's good for hemmorhoids and old farts! Heh...heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:24 - ID#28994)
From past posts on this forum it was stated that 1 point in Dow equals 0ne billion dollars.
Is that correct?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:27 - ID#431263)
But who's countin'? Heh..heh..heh! At one point today the DUMPSTERS had taken out almost 1 TRILLION DOLLARS from the DOW over the last 2 and 1/2 weeks!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:28 - ID#373284)
This gives the term charge it a WHOLE new meaning...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:29 - ID#254269)
Golden Cheesehead; What was intra-day
range ? Also, what is BEAR.X ? TIA

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:32 - ID#340256)
Interest rates will rise and heres why

The answer is Warren Buffett. You probably read the other day where he sold his zeros and made a kazillion dollars. He now has a kazillion dollars, what will he do with them? That's another story. A zero coupon bond is nothing but a regular bond stripped of everything except interest and principal. For example ( the figures used are for illustration only and have no relation to actual figures ) . When WB bought his bonds, I suspect that interest rates were high and we all know they are way down now. A zero works like this. You buy a 5 year zero, for example, and it costs you $0.20. Let's say interest rates are 10%. In five years you will receive $1.00 back, if you hold it to maturity. There are only three possibilities. Interest rates can go up, down or stay the same. If interest rates go up say to 15%, the bond is now worth $0.10, that's ok if you hold to maturity because you will still get a $ for the $0.20 invested. If interest rates go down to 5%, the bond is worth $0.60 because the total must always equal one $. This is the only way that you can make a ton with zeros that you do not want to hold to maturity. There is only one way you can lose money, if not held to maturity, and that is for interest rates to go higher than when you bought it. If you had a kazillion in zeros and you sold them, would it be possible that you think interest rates are going to go up sometime sooner than later? Just a hunch.

Look for interest rates to rise. Of course, I have no credibility. Don't want any, too much responsibility. This is all speculation of course, WB does not confide in me.

P.S. the birds names: How about Inflation, deflation and stagflation? Whoever leaves the nest first, let me know, it will save a lot of agony around this site. I will put my money on inflation Or: Up, down and Viagra. If Viagra leaves the nest first, please do not tell me. I've been screwed enough, already. Cheers

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:32 - ID#25257)
@Crazytimes, Bridge Re: Anglogold
I also had AGOLY and FSCNY. After some frustration at discerning the new symbols ( I think WDEPY is in this thing too. ) , I have e-mailed Anglogold who sent a responding acknowledgment but no information yet. When they give me the new symbols and split ratios, I will post them.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:34 - ID#431263)
DOW RANGE WAS 8361.92-8574.85. CLOSE--8546.78 Look for an attempt to rally the trroops again tomorrow so's they all DUMP! DUMP! DUMP! BEFORE THE LOOOOONG WEEKEND! Heh..heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:37 - ID#431263)
Interview with a young couple who just took a $50,000 home equity loan to BUY STOCKS!!!! Heh...heh...heh!! Who says this here market ain't juiced up with debt!! Heh..heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:37 - ID#249244)
Gents: I been peaking in here off and on all day and reading your posts. What is going on right now in the Markets is really not a pretty sight. There are a lot of baby boomers out there who stand to lose everything they have saved for all their lives. As the market declines so will the solitude of the masses and that will effect all of us. Historians of a future time may very well look back the events unfolding before our very eyes as the worst economic disaster the world has ever know.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:38 - ID#255284)
Sputniks R US
JTF/LGB Any tele-communications specialists.
Please point me at an idiot's guide URL to the risks of disruption/interference with digital satellite communications. A new project I am advising on will rely on digital satellite data reception and transmission. I have to have an idea of the statistical risks of communication failure. I have read several posts that discuss the Leonids, and others that discuss solar flare/sunspot activity. Would be obliged for any other info.

I would give my email address and carry this discussion off-line, but I have been receiving junk for the past week or so, and when I find out where these fiends got my email address I shall out the bstard for breaching my privacy. We dont do that downunder.

Err..Who wrote the instrumental Telstar?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:44 - ID#350179)
Telstar (The lonely bull)?
Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass???
Am I even close?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:44 - ID#266105)

The Ventures.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:45 - ID#431263)
What you say is all too true! But hard to cry for boomers when all they do is thumb their nose at reality and buy stocks will-nilly without any regard for value! Maybe after they suffer a little I'll shed a few tears, but don't count oon it before we get to DOW 4,000 or LOWER! They've all had ample warning this could and would happen--but they were too busy buyin' big houses and yachts to listen to the Kitco voices of reason!! Let 'em eat some cake!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:45 - ID#254269)
Mr. Cheeseman; Dow trading range only 213 points; pretty tight isn't
it ?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:47 - ID#431263)
well BC knows! Heh..heh..heh!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:50 - ID#266105)
@when the music mattered

MM -- Herb did Syncom, Advent, moonbounce...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:52 - ID#249244)
Your right on man, the problem is no one will be eating anything if the market implodes.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:53 - ID#252391)
Golden Cheesy - glad you're excited
Rather an unimspiring day here on KITCO. Sorry the DOW didn't crash again for your Chezzzzy. Your cheerleading was probably a good signal that a rally late in the day was going to happen.

Tomorrow expect we'll here less from you as the dollar will rally and the stock markets will counter rally. Metals put in a pretty poor performance, in my opinion, expect a down day tomorrow. Does appear that some buying is coming into the metal stocks as witnessed by the firmer XAU and some up ticks at he close. Oil was pretty much unchaged though oil stocks continued their free fall. Interesting that oil jumped to 14.15 before caving. The disinflationary thing is welll entrenched. Until the Dollar Index breaks 100 its hard to be a bull on commodities, metals or metal stocks.

The S&P 500 bounced off its 500 day moving average around 106. Think we will see some seesawing - Cheezy can cheer the declines.

Increasing the levels of my dry powder - expect better buys in the metal stocks and oil sector ahead.
rsw,y it

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:54 - ID#233199)
@John Disney
Any new news/rumours on RANGY to explain it's realativly poor performance?

Thaanks again..

(Wed Aug 05 1998 16:58 - ID#431263)
You must be new to this site, cuz if you'd spend a little more time readin' Squirrel's and Nick's posts and others you would soon learn that some Kitcoites here have taken enough precautions and laid by enough provisions of the edible kind to prove you wrong! Suggest you go lookin' for some of those posts and educate yourself before you,too, suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune around about 1/1/00!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:02 - ID#32100)
silver ? .....
looks like everyone is busy with gold and dow

silvertraded in a 8 cent range

question is when it breaks out will we test 5.28 or 5.60 ??

APH ... your comments please

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:02 - ID#350179)
I repectfully defer. ( Jeez, I'm only 36 )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:04 - ID#252150)
The Twilight Zone
From Barron's:

Mogambo Guru
9241 54th St. N., Pinellas Park, Fla. 33782
JULY 21 ~ ''Investors'' pushed the P/E multiple for the S&P 500 over the 30
mark for the first time in history. No wonder the Wall Street flacks are busily
pushing the New Era myth that ''valuations don't matter anymore.'' This
preposterous valuation is so far into the Twilight Zone that I expect to see
Rod Sterling standing in the corner of the NYSE, intoning something sinister
and mysterious into a camera.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:05 - ID#57232)
Solar Activity and Telecommunications
aurator: LGB apparently is a Telecommunications engineer, so this is right up his alley. I understand the concepts, but any quantitative numbers I might give you would be suspect. What I do know is that the effect of solar activity depends on the telecommunications frequency. For example, short wave will bounce off different areas of the ionosphere, depending on how hot solar activity has made it.
Digitial communications might be affected by interfering transmission reflections off dense plasmas, as well as by energy surges. Could be due to high energy electrons, protons interacting directly with the satellite, or from electromagnetic surges 'frying' something critical.
Perhaps the attached web site might get you going -- it is more communications-oriented than the typical NASA type site. Lots of references at many levels.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:13 - ID#342376)
@ SWP1 and RANGY
Try this link to Silicon Investor, much info on RANGY. By the way, it did move up 18% yesterday, just a little less that DROOY ( 20% ) If the POG gets moving, so will RANGY.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:18 - ID#57232)
Solar and Ionospheric Activity Report
aurator: Interesting site -- some prediction.
All: Now wait a minute -- this really is relevant. If you periodically watch a site like this, you may be able to see the solar flare that ushers in the y2k events. How about Mother Nature giving y2k a boost?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:19 - ID#242325)
PPT can tempoarily a selloff by buying futures but cannot long keep market at inflated levels without interest rate reductions. Look for rumors about rate cuts to surface shortly.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:21 - ID#252391)
On silver
There is no short squeze in silver, the bears and their allies held off the last comex stock withdrawal very well containing the 10 million oz draw down with a 50 cent rally that has now all but disappeared. Technicals going soft on silver, the last of the strong commodity charts, if there are any. Need a close above $5.50 basis September to be at all constructive. Downtrend lines forming off the recent 5.80 top looks like solid resistance.

We Kitcoites have to forget what this stuff is - this gold and silver -forget the fundlementals of supply shortage, deficits and sippergate - look at the damn charts, quite hoping; the trends are down. Drops are followed by uninspired rallies. The best pops we've had were in Plt when it went back up to $400 only to island reverse and come back to $375; and of course silver which rallied right back to resistance at $5.85 before the bear force turned it back. The best the bulls can hope for is a holding action, but watch out in the metals, we had our rally daysand they were weak, bear slide off the back of DOW rally and dollar strenght with CRB going below 200. Look out below in silver to $4.85, gold to $275, PT to $340 and PD to $265, OIL $12.

Dow 10,000 before Gold $315.

Remember the Japanese can start shifting institutional savings into US stock and bond market come 1/1/99. What do you think that will do for the dollar. - take alot of tax cuts and dollar intervention to stem that $6 trillion dollar tide.

PH in LA
(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:21 - ID#225408)
Flash!! Flash!! Final reply to RJ on this subject!!!!!
Thank you for the sentiments expressed in your post: Date: Wed Aug 05 1998 03:25. You indeed have no problem whatsoever with me on my end. In fact, I admire your close, hands-on market knowledge for what it is and expect to profit by your presence here. This, or course, does not mean that I cannot see validity in any other views. I also see much validity in the views of ANOTHER and do not feel that yours in any way contradict his. It is merely a question of timeframes. I never quite understood your denigration of him and have thought long and hard trying to reconcile this contradiction.

I hope you realize that your supposed refutation of ANOTHER's prediction that gold will soon be re-valued drastically upwards by pointing to $30,000 suits, etc. rests upon basic assumptions that do not have to be shared by all. Although you are correct that if the present world monetary system continues to funtion exactly as it does today, $30,000/oz gold does imply higher prices for everything, including suits and toilet paper, even a cursory reading of ANOTHER's THOUGHTS reveals that no such assumption is included in his analysis. Just the opposite! Incidentally, my recollection of the 30K number was to the effect that if all the dollars in existence were to be exchanged for all the gold above ground it would have to be revalued at $30,000 per oz. Very different from saying that ANOTHER predicts that gold will be going to $30,000 anytime soon.

I hope that noone here sees in me a defender of F*. I am not. RJ is right on when he derides the boredom induced by the unceasing repetition which bombarded us for so long, and with several different incarnations, as I recall. I posted about this at the time. My views have not changed. It is sometimes said that "the ends justify the means". If fixating on the racial and insulting content of F*'s posts was what it took to have the unceasing repetition of inanities removed from our presence, so be it. For my part, I barely noted the racial aspect at the time, and I usually don't condone the old "ends justifying the means" adage, anyway.

As far as your laudable concern for the financial viability of Bart's site, that seems like a concern best left to Bart, who seems quite capable of administering his site. ( He seems to have shut down K-2 which would indicate a change of heart. ) If you are concerned about the economic perks flowing to Monex by the continuation of the Kitco site, that indeed is your business ( no pun intended ) . That still gives you no special rights on who does and does not post here, nor on whattopics, nor with what views . It would give you every right to start up your own similar site at Monex, though.

I have posted consistently about the need to keep this forum open to all views. If anyone tries to restrict access to any properly-presented viewpoint, the whole forum suffers. K-2 seemed to be an evolving forum with slightly different groundrules. F*'s access was not being restricted by Bart. A poster named Jujube seemed to be violating the spirit of those groundrules. I took exception to that. It was not personal. I am glad if it was perceived to be civil.

I will be gone for a time.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:23 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 29.74. The 144 day moving average is 29.45

Flash Gordon__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:25 - ID#327313)

Your Aug 3rd 15.01 post ( below ) makes reference to the "Shepler Market Timer". Is this a newsletter? If so, any chance of a URL link of some sort in order, potentially, to subscribe please?

( Date: Mon Aug 03 1998 15:01
OLD GOLD ( ) ID#242325:
Received this unsolicited E-mail this morning. Cheesehead will like this
for 8/03/98
Current Position: Rydex Ursa fund since 6/19/98
Purchase NAV: 5.02
Current NAV as of 7/31/98 close: 4.97
Return on current trade: -1.00%
Shepler Market Timer Returns since 4/8/98 inception: 6.04%
Buy and Hold S&P 500 Index Returns since 4/8/98: 1.73%
Market Commentary: etc etc etc )


(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:29 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .221. The 144 day moving average is .253. There have been only 6 occasions where the XAU has closed in the 63.XX range. Ranked according to the gold price, today is #5. The #1 ranking was on July 18, 1986, with a gold price of $355.7, an XAU of 63.36, producing an XAU/AU ratio of .178

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:29 - ID#200235)
China and Russia are the key

When, not if, China is forced to Devalue their currency due to continuing loss of market because of the declining YEN, then the ASIAN CONTAGION will have the full and complete effect on the DOW. It will crash at least 30 % in a matter of hours.

I wish I knew why the CB's have conspired against the POG. Maybe more knowledgeable kitcoites can explain why a CB would destroy over 60 % of the value of their gold holdings.

russia is waiting for the IMF to bail them out of their very dire perdicament. I do not believe there is enough money or interest to save this former super power.

When China devalues and russia tanks, then it will get interesting and probably dangerous.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:30 - ID#242325)


Here is another timing model that says market made a short-term bottom today. I think they are right.

Wednesday August 5, 1:01 pm Eastern Time

Company Press Release

Kostech Corp.'s MOJBB Market Indicator Calls Market Bottom

RENO, Nev.-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --Aug. 5, 1998--Kostech Corp.'s Proprietary MOJBB Technical Market Indicator is calling for
short term market relief.

``The market has gone from being very over-bought to being extremely over-sold. Based off of MOJBB's track record, we are
statistically confident that we will see some short term recovery in the market.''

Kostech's MOJBB indicator will be available to the public beginning on Aug. 7. It will be displayed free on the Internet Investor
Web site at

MOJBB is updated every Saturday morning. With 11 years of history and greater than 93% accuracy, it has been proven as a very
reliable tool for timing investments.


Kostech Corp., Reno
Michael Graham, 702/827-8781

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Questions or Comments?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:32 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 53.22. The 144 day moving average is 50.63

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:35 - ID#342376)
@ jims
The Japanese may take their savings elsewear on 1/01/99 but they are a proud people and I believe would support their country. Americans might put money wherever there is money to be made but I can't see the Japanese doing the same. Don't forget the EURO launch 1/01/99. A failure or not, the EURO will be competition for the dollar. I would give the DOW seeing 10,000 about 1 in 10 odds of happening this or next year. We might get another rally but I doubt it would even get to the former high of about 9300. I go much more by market psychology than any technicals. The party is over. The smart ones have left the party, the only ones left are too drunk to see it yet, but are beggining to sober up. Didn't the Japanese "Big Bang" happen in April? There was much talk then and the "Big Bang" turned out to be a big bust.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:36 - ID#26793)
The numbers below are all 144 day moving averages.
Spot gold $296.63; spot silver $5.90; XAU 75.24

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:39 - ID#26793)
The numbers below are all 233 day moving averages
Spot gold $301.79; spot silver $5.63; XAU 79.69; Dow/Gold ratio 27.89

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:39 - ID#57232)
Comex vs European Silver markets
All: Some thoughts to get the silver gurus going. First, RJ said there is plenty of silver in Europe ( perhaps he meant short-term? ) . Secondly, we know the LMBA market for gold is growing rapidly -- how about LME and silver? Probably. Thirdly, my guess is that COMEX precious metal market volumes are steady or falling -- certainly their stocks are. That Wilmington firm threw in the towel for some reason. Fourth, my guess is that COMEX is more tightly regulated than the equivalent European markets, and there is talk about the US Congress regulating the commodities markets in the US even more. Fifth, European or other world commodities markets are presumably more anonymous that the US markets. Attractive to those big traders who do not want to be accused of cornering the market ( a la the Hunt bros ) .
So how about this --is part of silvers behavior over the last few months is due to a shift from COMEX and US trading to European trading. Why bother with all the US regulations when you can avoid them in Europe?

RJ, D.A. -- Comments?

Are we being hoodwinked into thinking the silver markets are really tight, when we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg? I am still saying that silver stores are dwindling, but we may be watching the wrong storehouses. How about European ones?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:44 - ID#373403)
Suits will not cost $30,000
Making gold money again means that the price of gold will fluctuate with the global supply of goods and services. If it takes $90 trillion to make todays world go round and there are 300,000,000 ounces of gold then gold would be equivalent to $30,000 in todays purchasing power. There would, however, be little need to convert the value of your gold to dollars if gold were money. Suits would still cost between $300 and $1,500.

Mines would have to be nationalized under these circumstances so I hope you all are holding physical.

Thinking about this is like thinking of winning powerball. How would I spend my new fortune?

Flash Gordon__A
(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:48 - ID#327313)

d:o ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

Aragorn III
(Wed Aug 05 1998 17:57 - ID#212323)
themissinglink...Yep. Think of it as a tool forcing honest accounting by those who would print money
...And with that contribution being made for the general erudition of all, I'm off to the post office to pick up a registered, insured package.

big grin thing...for a different world soon to follow ( in a geologic sense )

got gold?

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:01 - ID#295111)
Gold down, XAU up
This is another one of those days when Gold Stocks go up, yet the POG goes down. This is usually a signal that the POG will move up.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:11 - ID#412286)
Crazy times
The Japanese can already put their money where they want including US stocks. Whats with the 1/1/99. Big Bang was 4/1/98 and Japanese have been able to do what they want since then. Someone on this sight used the 1/1/99 date and that is wrong as to Japanese individual investors but right as to Euro. Get the facts straight. Believe me if that money were coming on in 1999 and was not already able to move CNBC would be using as a factor to buy US stocks non stop. Sorry but the dereg has already occurred. This is a disinformation cure!

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:16 - ID#295111)
When can we expect to see $30,000 gold? More importantly, how quick will it happen do you think.
$30,000 gold is a real possibility if the US does what it is supposed to do. That is, back the greenback with 100% gold.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:21 - ID#215235)
Gold mentioned on PBS evening news
A financial planner/author on personal investing cited AU as one of the nine basic financial instruments on PBS evening news hour. Gold and only three other of the nine were mentioned by name. Spread the word - "As good as gold!" Now the public must take up the chant - "As good as gold!" The CBs already know the chant.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:21 - ID#280339)
Deflation paradigm
The current paradigm explaining the financial markets is that we are undergoing a deflation caused by the turmoil in Asia. This is despite continued printing press operations in the US, Japan and the rest of Asia.

The Asian printing press has caused a hyper inflationary depression in Indonesia, Malaysia, Korea and stagflation in Japan. That is what happens when money flees a failing fiat currency.

Some of the hot money has gone into precious metals but until now most of it has gone to the western financial markets. But the choices of places for capital to run is narrowing.

The US stock markets appears to have cracked. It will likely take the European markets down with it. Even if the PPT and the dipsters are able to engineer on last weak rally the market is still overvalued and will soon enter a bear market.

The final place for money to run is US and European debt markets. So we should all buy zeroes. This is what the current paradigm is saying. In the short run this may work.

However the 1990's are a lot different than the 1930's. The amount of debt both public and private is enormous. A bear market in the US will slam the US dollar. Once the dollar heads down interest rate will go up. Japan and China will sell their TBonds. This will start a vicious cycle.

The only place left for capital to run will be the precious metals. The only thing standing in the way of a huge bull market in gold is our bond market.

At this point the Bond market is looking very toppy. Buffett just sold his zeroes. Commercials have near a record short position in the futures market. There is even talk of lowering debt ratings for US securities because of the large amount of debt held by foreign governments.

Don't despair the gold bull is just around the corner.

Got gold!!

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:24 - ID#295111)
La Tete D'or Du Fromage,

Have you noticed CNBC is calling the investors responsible for the bull market, the "MOM" and "POP" investors, like whether they will buy on dips.

Why don't they say babyboomers.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:30 - ID#295111)
The BULL blew the BEAR yesterday but I know the BULL can't get enough. The BEAR is waiting.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:44 - ID#2030)
My debut posting!
Hi all. This is my first posting to the discussion group. Ever since the fall of stockmarkets last year, I have wondered what gives our ( fiat ) money value? The answer to this question has lead me to believe the world is in the grip of a kind of "collective lunacy".

The problem I face in my investment strategy is stuck between what I now know about the paper money system, and what the majority "believes" is right. As long as everyone has confidence in the fiat money system, I will lose out by backing "useless" gold. Are we that are still 'foolish' enough to think that gold is still money also collectively deluding ourselves? Or will we have the last laugh? The forces against gold as money seem insurmountable.

Still, I don't want to be one of those that are left standing without a chair when the music stops!

Will not central banks sacrifice their entire country's future to keep the paper system afloat? It seems so.

Cheers and looking forward to intersting discussions.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:52 - ID#233199)
So .. How low can RANGY go anyway?
Below zero? Maybe I should send 'em soem more money to prop 'em up!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:54 - ID#42039)
TO All:does anybody know details about the sale of Noranda s stake in BMG?

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:56 - ID#295111)
Your Debue Posting
Even assumming that Fiat money will become the currency of choice, much more so than today. Even if monetary transactions can be made instantaneously via computer and telecommunications technology, faster than today. Even if a computer chip could be implanted in your head/body identifying you and excatly how much FIAT money you own and can trade with. Even when and if this happens......

Then Gold must trade in a blackmarket. In which case, gold would be more valuable than ever cause any transactions you make would not be recorded anywhere.

You must ask yourself, why are central banks still hoarding gold?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 18:59 - ID#215235)
Moneyline mentions Gold
The opening comment on Moneyline showed a lion at the stock market podium and stated the scene was used to announce the issue of a new South African gold stock. "As good as gold." Can I get an Amen?

gert frobe
(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:04 - ID#42963)
Gold Open Interest
Where does one get the daily open interest figures??
Hopefully in graphic representation.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:12 - ID#338111)
@SteveIS__A - Deflation?
Thanks Steve, very encouraging!

I agree, the deflation paradigm is just plain wrong. Monetary inflation is everywhere. It is the reaction of the holders of currency that is paramount. In Indonesia they can't get rid of it fast enough. In the US, unless it goes into funds etc, it is hoarded. If hoarded to excess, 'deflation' ensues.

I work in an Australian bank. A friend at Westpac says that heaps of people have stacks of cash that they don't know what to do with. When hoarders dump paper dollars, hyper-inflation in all currencies "seems" inevitable. What's going to be the trigger?

Got Gold!


(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:25 - ID#338111)
@Tantalus Rex - Fiat money
Thanks for your comment.

Yes - I've noticed that CB's hang on to the stuff don't they! They announce sales with great fanfare. But purchases? ( Shhhh! )

Our Aussie CB sold a bit last year. No doubt we were *conned*. Still we have plenty in the ground - right!


(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:32 - ID#210114)
Good news for Gold

Falling US shares are tipped to boost gold



Falling United States shares would help buoy gold prices by up
to 25 per cent by the end of this year, sparking a big re-rating of
mining stocks, a leading North American gold analyst said

"I think it ( the gold price ) will be $US320 to $US350 an ounce
by November," CIBC Oppenheimer's director equity research,
Mr Tom McNamara, told the Diggers and Dealers conference in

Mr McNamara, one of North America's top five gold analysts,
said that investors would buy gold as the US dollar and equity
markets came under pressure.

Tuesday's Wall Street slump and bullion's corresponding
$US5.40 rise to $US282.95 lends weight to his theory. Also,
based on average historical prices, gold was relatively cheap.

Gold prices have averaged $US373 in the past 10 years and the
15-year average is $US377.

"This is one of the opportunities of the century for investors," Mr
McNamara said.

He said the overwhelmingly negative sentiment in the sector was
not based on fundamentals, and short-covering rallies in the
bullion market would prompt greater levels of investor interest.

Central bank gold sales - kicked off by the Reserve Bank's sale
of two-thirds of its gold stocks last year - were largely
completed, and more disposals of central bank reserves were
unlikely, he said.

Also, central banks would continue to become more transparent
on their position on gold ahead of European monetary union,
making it harder to short the gold market.

Indications were that North American investors had seen the
opportunities and were looking beyond their home turf for

"I think you'll definitely see US companies picking the dirt in
Australia," Mr McNamara said.

In fact, a management contingent from Kinross Gold is in
Australia visiting institutions and talking to stockbroking houses
with the aim of seeking acquisitions in Australia. Kinross recently
merged with Denver-based Amex Gold to become North
America's fifth-biggest gold company.

BHP yesterday said discussions were continuing with diamond
giant De Beers over sales of BHP diamonds from the Ekati mine
in Canada.

BHP also confirmed it was committed to seeing the troubled
Hartley platinum mine in Zimbabwe to full production in the latter
part of 1999.

A newspaper report from London said De Beers' Central Selling
Organisation was close to a deal with BHP to market some of
the diamonds. No one from De Beers was available to

BHP would not reveal the state of discussions with De Beers
yesterday. The CSO dominates the marketing and sales of
diamonds around the world.

"Yes we have been talking to De Beers," a BHP spokesman
said, but it was "not appropriate" to reveal the current stage of
the negotiations. with AAP

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:42 - ID#338111)
Hey Spock
Thanks! Finally some good news in the press!

What do you think of Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 102?


( Paper decays, but Gold lasts forever! )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:48 - ID#113316)
Good posts by SteveIS and ROR! The problem brewing is stagflation, not deflation. It is the best environment for the POG and POS.

Japan's "big-bang" deregulation did occur on 4/1/98. It coincides with the spike up in the dollar vs yen and the rally in the "nifty fifty" ( or should that be 25? ) while the rest of the US equity market was beginning to tank. When the flow of funds reverses in full force, we can expect:

1. the dollar will decline ( crash?? ) down to a more realistic 110 yen per dollar level;

2. both US equities and bonds will decline ( crash??, also don't talk about the real rates of return or any similar argument, liquidity - the lack thereof - will drive the prices down ) ; and

3. precious metals, POG and POS, will increase ( skyhigh??? ) .

Also look for collapse of Internet Stocks as a sign that the irrational exhuberance of the babyboomers is at last over. Internet Stocks are already well off their highs, but they still have 90% to fall!

All the above will happen in concert and will be the seventh sign that the financial market bull is dead and the precious metal bull is alive. I think it will be obvious but the financial wizards will not see it until it runs them over!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:54 - ID#288369)
@As if it couldn't no more worse..........
My neighbor's cows tore out da' fence and got in some of dat der loco weed. They don't know they're cows no more. What's an ol' cow poke to do? Oh, woe is me.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:57 - ID#287129)
Regarding DOW, the news commentator says, "BUY, BUY, BUY!!!"
A well-known financial advisor was interviewed on a local news program today regarding yesterday's DOW drop. He said, "Buy when stock is down. Now, from here, we don't know whether it will go farther down before it goes back up; but we DO know that you can buy today at a 10% discount..." ( from last month's highs ) . His advice regarding Y2K was to simply have about $500 in cash stashed, and three months expenses in the bank...with the rest invested in equities, because in the long haul they will always go up. Can you believe that??? ( If the stock brokers in the 1920's were giving similar advice to the public, no wonder there were so many suicides! )

After the interview concluded, the news moderator then said that he was a very conservative investor; but decided that the best course of action is to buy stocks and then forget about looking at them for ten years.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:58 - ID#386245)
Got stopped out...
...of one of my ten-baggers-to-be this week. The problem with ten-baggers is that they could also become one-tenth-baggers!! It seems that they are having a minor dispute in the Congo over who is running the country. Best to take my medicine and live to fight another day. Still think that Anvil is going to be a huge success, as they have one of the richest copper/Ag deposits in the world. Will be back in as soon as things settle down. When investing in gold shares/silver shares/widgets you MUST use stop losses. It hurts to take a loss. It hurts a lot more to see a share go to 10-20% of what you paid for it. How many of you are in that position? Not pontificating. Just reminding. Preserve your capital. Easier said than done. Live to fight another day.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:58 - ID#42963)
@ gert frobe re your ID#42963: Open interest Nos.

I think some charts on The Privateer give you the open interest in graphical form.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:59 - ID#255226)
The one good thing about Silver right here, it's a low risk trade with a lot of potential. If you bought Sept silver now the price is about 5.40, put a stop under this week's low your risk is about $300. The potential is $5,000. This is one of those times when a case can be made either way for silver up or down. From a trading point of view this market is just where you want it be. The 5.34-5.33 area is clearly the difference between being right or wrong. If every trade I made had this kind of risk/reward I'd be making money even if I was right only one out of ten. Money management wins in the long run. Even if this turns out to be a loser, the odds were in my favor.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:59 - ID#286253)
@ jims re your 17:21 - "There is no short squeeze in silver"

You say "We Kitcoites have to forget what this stuff is - this gold and silver -forget the fundlementals of supply shortage, deficits and sippergate - look at the damn charts,"

Will you persist in these beliefs when there are no stocks left in NY? When lease rates are 15%? Does heavy trade buying at $5 mean anything to you? What will it take for you to realize that your beloved data points on the chart represent something _real_?

I have clipped and saved your quote. One day will come in quite handy when I go looking for a "chartist" explanation of successive limit-up days.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 19:59 - ID#286253)
@JTF re your 17:39 - Comex vs. Euro Silver Markets.

RJ contends there is lots of Si in Europe? Perhaps. But 1. there is a lot less of it than there used to be, 2. what's left is being consumed by Mr. Kodak and Mr. Fuji and 3. just because the Silver is there does not mean it is for sale.

Euro warehouses don't publish stock numbers, but if there were a glut of silver just "sitting there" why did liquidity evaporate after a puny 1 billion purchase? Imagine shorting 1 billion worth of bonds and seeing the yields rise from 2% to 75%! People who say that there is a lot of available silver out there are just plain wrong.

Don't know when the squeeze is coming, but it is coming.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:01 - ID#210114)
Yes, good to read something positive in the press about the noble metal. Must wait and see if it comes to fruition.

Must confess, I'm not up with Ferengi law. Despite enjoying Trek, Deep Throat Nine,... sorry! Deep Space Nine doesn't grab me that much.

It's better now that Worf is on board.

Live Long and Prosper

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:13 - ID#338111)
Spock - You can't fool a Ferengi!
I'm not that passionate about DS9 either. There was however, a particularly good episode about Quark ( a Ferengi ) who went back in time ( our time ) and tried to sell weapons to the US military. Naturally Quark wouldn't take US dollars!

You'd find the episode amusing.



(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:16 - ID#301318)
"They Loot! They Burn! They Rape! They Kill!"
I don't give a damn if I get thrown off this board but the US media is ignoring what is going on in Indonesia. If you have investments, or are thinking about investing, in Indonesia this is what you are/would be supporting.

WARNING: Pictures of violence, rape and murder.
Click the link above and than click the story as named in this posts subject heading.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:24 - ID#210114)
More good stuff........
Gold lower in Europe but rebound seen
12:16 p.m. Aug 05, 1998 Eastern

LONDON, Aug 5 ( Reuters ) - Gold edged lower in
quiet conditions on Wednesday on light selling from the
United States, but dealers said they expected bullion to

Gold was last quoted at $287.90/$288.40, slightly
down from the previous New York close at

Dealers said gold had edged lower shortly before the
afternoon fix after spending much of the day above the
$288.00 level.

``A little bit of selling in New York pushed it down on
the slightly strengthening dollar but then it met
resistance again when it got up to $288.50 and it has
eased back since,'' one dealer said.

Dealers said gold also suffered from weaker U.S.
stock markets.

The Dow Jones index dropped more than 70 points
when it opened on Wednesday, following on from
Tuesday's 300-point plunge.

But some dealers said the Dow's woes, coupled with
renewed tension in Iraq and the problems of U.S.
President Bill Clinton, under siege again over his
relationship with White House intern Monica
Lewinsky, could bolster gold.

``It looks as if the market is going to strengthen a bit
further. The Dow Jones is looking pretty rubbish,
Saddam Hussein is starting to stir up some trouble,
Clinton is in trouble and a few good signs for gold

``There should be some shortcovering,'' one senior
dealer said.

Iraq's parliament on Wednesday voted unanimously for
a freeze in the work of United Nations arms inspectors
in Iraq, deepening the latest crisis in the seven-year
U.N. effort to disarm Iraq.

Gold has been suffering from seasonally slow summer
demand, compounded by indications of lower demand
in East Asia due to the region's economic downturn.

On Wednesday, CIBC Oppenheimer Corp analyst
Thomas McNamara said gold prices could rise to
$350.00 an ounce by November.

``Once gold passes the psychological price barrier of
$320, it will rise very quickly to $350,'' McNamara
told Reuters in Kalgoorlie, Australia.

McNamara said he expected clarification in the next
two months from the newly formed European Central
Bank ( ECB ) over how member banks in the European
Union would manage gold assets.

``We expect this clarification around September or
October,'' McNamara said.

The ECB earlier this year said gold would represent
about 15 percent of its total reserves of some $55
billion, equivalent to about 800 tonnes.

More than 11,000 tonnes would remain in the hands of
the national banks.

Silver was last quoted at $5.41/$5.44 an ounce, down
from the previous New York close at

$5.44/$5.47. Dealers said silver dipped in sympathy
with gold.

Platinum was up $1.50 at $375.50/$377.50 while
palladium was down $1.00 at $287.00/$297.00.

( ( Marius Bosch, London newsroom +44 171 542
8065, fax +44 171 542 8077. ) )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:28 - ID#402148)
Way to be, thanks SPOCK

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:28 - ID#147201)
2BRO2B you reply
Sorry to be so late, but had an interesting interruption. The numbers I was talking about being cooked were Commerce Dpt Economy measures. I would not doubt that Treasury is cooking to some degree. The type of bastard that releases this stuff is overwhelmed by political considerations and I find it is better to dig up your own. Thanx, Charlie

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:38 - ID#147201)
JTF re Telecom URL
I emailed NOAA for info on the interface between seismic EMF emissions and the Main Mag field. Let you know if I get anything.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:39 - ID#219363)
@My Debut Posting ...
What gives fiat money it's value is "confidence" ( or if you prefer, "lunacy" is it's darker side ) , could also call it "faith". You, my sister, your father, and I could start our own currency by simply getting a piece of paper, writing "For debts" on it, and signing our names to the bottom. Hence forth, each of us agrees to accept that piece of paper for payment of debts. So, my sister makes you a pie, you give her the scrap of paper. I cut your lawn, you give it to me. Your father helps me with my taxes ( and I always need help ) and I give it to him. The only value of the paper was our confidence in it - the faith that everyone is going to play, that there won't be a day when you're stuck with a paper and nobody will accept it for payment of debts ( "Private" as opposed to "Public" in this case *grin* ) . That's the essense of fiat currency. You can call it "shared cooperation", or you can call it "mass delusion" depending on how you see the world.

My understanding is that years and years ago people weren't as trustworthy. They did the same thing, but they did it with precious metals, something that seemed more concrete and had a history. The reason precious metals worked pretty good was that they are in limited supply ( something the FED does with dollars today ) .

Then eventually people kinda bought into the idea of "Okay, we'll take this paper stuff, but only if there's enough gold to cover it", and we got to a fiat currency, or what a lot of people consider to be a fiat currency. The percentage of gold to dollars dropped further and further until eventually we dropped the gold standard altogether and just started thinking the paper was good enough.

I would argue that gold, though it does have at least a commodity value today, was probably always a fiat currency itself - I tend to agree with those who say it has no real use, especially in the "olden days". It does have a super history as a fiat currency I admit, but it's still a sea-shell being used to carry out trade and pay off debts.

So yes, what you wrote is correct ( IMHO ) , that it's only people's confidence that makes paper valuable, and that people are more confident in gold than they are in paper ( at least during troubled times ) . To say that you want Gold INSTEAD of paper, however, is I believe something to think about, because it makes the assumption that people are going to lose faith in the paper, which I don't see any indications of. People are in love with the $US.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:51 - ID#261322)
I do know that Noranda said they would see their stake in BMG. Noranda has also said that it will be selling Canadian Hunter and DIstributing Noranda Forest. To date they have done nothing except sell off Norcen- but then it had had one huge run up. BMG paid a lot for Hemlo, so I really can't see Noranda selling BMG now at 4 1/2. They seem to be taking their time with everything. I own Noranda, and am getting frustrated, that the break up is taking so long. The parts are worth much more than the whole.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 20:54 - ID#210235)
@New 52 week highs on NY Stock exchange
Did any of you make note of the new 52 week highs today? CNBC called it 8/568 but CBS lists only 5 new highs ( see link ) . You can count the new lows if you're bored! Curiously enough, the ( CNBC ) commentators were calling it an 8% correction, I guess only the Dow "counts". Check out the list: ( This list takes a minute to load )

You will notice that it isnot the same as the CNBC announced numbers, with only 5 new hight listed. Sometimes it takes a few minutes to add them up.

Nice PPT action at the end, limited to those indices that the news media will be blathering about tonight.

Today's action, including gold and oil:

recent trends:

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:04 - ID#263254)
Bill2j ...yesterday's post
Well, finally! Thank you for presenting the commentary on what has been on my mind for some time. Japan is between a rock and a hard place.
It will be terribly hard for them to cut off their gravy train of exports to rescue their economy.

All: Any opposing commentary taking the above into consideration?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:13 - ID#338111)
@Envy, all
Thanks for your comment to my debut posting. I feel pretty much the same way. I still accept Aussie dollars as payment since I can pass them to someone else and get a hamburger or a bar of gold - and get away with it! The other reason I accept them is that the government makes it illegal for me to demand gold ( or anything else ) as payment.

The system seems to survive because the majority of people have very little money and most are in debt. This ensures that demand for the paper money is allways high. Which partly explains why so many of the "tax-effective schemes" such as negative gearing are being forced down my throat.

The threat to the system will come when people ask governments to make good on the issuance of their debt. ( Which they can't do- government's dont produce anything ) That's when it will turn nasty.

What do you think of Japan and it's 1 Trillion dollar hole? Will they sell treasuries to fill it?


(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:16 - ID#251238)
ROR: Big Bang is stretched out in phases until 2001
Private individuals were 4/1/98, institutions are 1/1/99. That's why
all the big US firms are lining up partners in Japan from Goldman
on to Smith Barney & Merril. 1/1/99 is when banks are allowed to
sell trusts ( mutual funds ) to public. Many banks in Japan have already
announced coming products. Goldman is launching single A bond fund.

check out the time table on PEI site.

PEI's survey in Japan shows no interest in stocks, only fixed income.
That's probably why CNBC is not touting this issue. Friend in Japan says the street expects $400 billion to be raised next year but Japanese have no interest in stocks anywhere after they lost so much on Nikkei.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:17 - ID#219363)
Apologies, I started running off at the mouth and forgot to say ...

WELCOME TO KITCO!!!!!! *smile*

As for what the Japanesse will do, there are a lot of very smart people here trying to figure that one out - me, I dunno anything about it really, trying to pick up stuff here and there myself.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:22 - ID#219363)
Headed down, off 64.94 ( 0.41 percent )

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:27 - ID#401460)
Pegasus Gold Reports Second Quarter Results

The holders of common shares in Pegasus Gold Inc. will not receive any distribution in respect of their respective interests.
On July 17, 1998, Florida Canyon Mining, Inc., Montana Tunnels Mining, Inc., and Diamond Hill Mining, Inc. filed a separate Plan of Reorganization for those three operating mines and Pegasus Gold International, Inc. that proposes to reorganize those operating assets into a new entity. Under this Plan, those companies' creditors, primarily the bank group, would exchange their debt for the majority of the equity in the new company.

Why is their stock allowed to trade? 84,700 shares traded today. Chapt. 11 scam?


In the normal course of its business, the Company uses derivative and financial instruments to reduce commodity price, foreign currency, interest rate, and other business and financial risks. The Company does not hold or issue derivative instruments for trading purposes.

Return on equity -862.33%
601 West First Avenue, Suite 1500
Spokane, WA 99204
( 509 ) 624-4653

Just like Columbia Health Care and others, they are spinning off assets and screwing stock holders. There will be more and more of this. the stock market is the biggest con in the world.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:33 - ID#411259)
..... PH .....

Ill respond later to the 30K gold portion of your post.

As for the rest, well, Im going to take the advice of gunrunner

And let you have the last word.

I hope this, at least, settles our differences concerning

Oh, you know.. whats his name


(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:34 - ID#190411)
The top on your "NYSE new highs" list has been mentioned before.
I clicked on AU and was amused that I had made a gain of something approaching 669% since it last traded. I have 5000 shares of AU, so I should be in the money.
Alas, The dumbells at most of the stockquote services are wrong.
They list it as AMAX Gold, which it is not. Amax Gold ( AU ) was absorbed by Kinross Gold ( KGC.NYSE or K.TO ) .
It is really Anglogold, which absorbed one of my other stocks- Western Deep Levels ( WDEPY ) , among several others.
I bought WDEPY because they have lot's a yella, and make money. Now with consolidation, I don't Know. Anyway, I voted my proxy against cons.
Anglogold brought a lion to NYSE today, along with sundry company and miners' union notables for their ADR launch today.
So your little list of five new highs gets taken out by the shorters to four--20% drop in NYSE.
PS The Canadians' Stockmaster service at least had the company name correct. Even the NYSE news service bollixed the story.- Had Anglogold buying AMAX gold. - AU.NYSE I think that Anglo only bought the symbol.
PPS I rest my case on how much attention Wall Street pays to goldshares.
I wish that the lion had sprayed the podium. They stink, although not as much as the "buying" of the last half hour. I would like to trace the "buyers" at that little precious moment.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:37 - ID#253246)
Goldstock letter 3-aug

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:39 - ID#210235)
wonder what that Lion was on. Must have been real potent.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:40 - ID#338111)
Japan - Losing Face
It's a bizzare situation when a problem isn't a problem until you face it.

The facing up of Japan to its non-performing loans means that the debt hole must be filled somehow. They are stuck.

I watched an episode on the Japan situation on the Australian "Lateline." Fortunately it was on the ABC and screened late. It was quite an ugly show. The consensus of the analysts is that Japan has to face up to the debt hole. Ken Courtis of Deutschebank said the liquidity squeeze that would be placed on the world economy would cause "world debt to fall down on itself". This would occur as Japan pulls money out of the world economy to finance the breach.

Ken Courtis also quoted an old Chinese saying "The longer the night the more chance you have of having a nightmare" "It's time for Japan to wake up before we all start screaming."

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:40 - ID#401460)
Wednesday August 5, 9:02 pm Eastern Time

INSIGHT - Dollar/yen caught in downchannel off 146


(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:41 - ID#210235)
@a good laugh
Dave Barry scores again. Not to be read at work, you'll give yourself away.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:50 - ID#254274)
Mr. Envy

You are certainly entitled to your humble opinions about gold and paper being equally fiat, however, it is just not so.
Precious metals DO have inherent and independent value, apart from currency. And today more than ever. Gold ( Like seashells ) always will have a jewelry value, due to its physical properties and beauty, and durability. Gold is a prized material for Integrated circuits, non-oxidation, and reflectivity/conductivity.
PM's in general have intrinsic value and are rare.....
Please do not make your lame equivalence with paper at any level of
seriousness. It is your kind of thinking that has gotten us to where we are with fiat, in money, people, values, and all other forms of human value and endeavor.

enough said

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:55 - ID#260389)
There are a few other aspects of the Japanese situation worth mentioning and helpful in understanding how they got in the fix they are in. I wish I could say that we got the upper hand in this situation because of our wise and intelligent politcal leaders but the truth of the matter is it was all pretty much an accident. At the end of WWII all the leaders of the principal nations sat down and took stock. Generals are famous for practicing the strategies that won the last war. Political leaders are famous for analyzing the policies that led to defeat or victory in the last war. At the end of the war the Russians said "Never Again" and promptly set about bankrupting Russia ensuring they would never again be invaded by a land army. The Japanese looked at the last war and said "we were defeated by a superior industrial complex", and promptly set out to build a world class industrial complex. The Americns came to the conclusion that we won the war because of our ability to bomb the enemy from long range using island bases such as England in the west and the islands of the pacicic in the east. We promptly set about building a ring of "strategic" bases all around the world with which to bomb any potential enemies. Germany concluded there was no longer any profit in large armies waging war and decided to become and industrial power like the US. This is where the accidents of history start to take over. General Macarther did a miraculous job during the occupation of Japan. However in all their history the Japanese had never had a civilian economy along the lines of the US economy. With no leaders, laws, policies or civil service staff to start one up he pretty much left in place the Japanese war time economy system. It still in place. It is still intact. The Japanese leaders are still asking the Japanese people for great sacrifices so they can win the industrial war of conquest instead of the military war of conquest. The problem is they made a bad bargain with the devil when they agreed to buy our deficit spending in exchange for industrial goods. We got the goods and they got the paper. They don't dare redeem the paper or we will shut them down industrially by locking out their exports. They don't know how to build a civilian economy because since the days of the Shoguns they have been run by the military hiding behind the mask of the statesman. Hence, they do nothing and hope for the best. My guess for the future would be they will gradualy slide into decline and be replaced by the Chinese who are somewhat more flexible and adaptable to change.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:56 - ID#190411)
USA stock exchanges last hour today
I wonder if Hillary has brought in her team of cattle futures experts to spruce up this dive.
Were the taxpayers of the US buying Caca Cola ( KO.NYSE ) today?
They weren't loading up on gold.

Do charts show fear?
Have S+P leaps gone down tonight?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 21:59 - ID#210235)
@The spin machine in action
To all who took the time to follow my links on the stock market this evening. Here is the product of the PPT and spin machine. For those who don't do their homework, looks pretty good, yes?

Bonds Fall as Stock Market Recovers
Filed at 6:26 p.m. EDT

By The Associated Press

NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Bond prices fell Wednesday as modest recovery in the stock market reduced the allure of government-backed securities as safe haven.

The drop in prices also was exacerbated by concerns about upcoming sales of new Treasury and corporate bonds. Bond dealers usually push up yields ahead of new sales to make them more appealing.

The price of the benchmark 30-year Treasury bond fell 17/32 point, or $5.31 per $1,000 in face value. Its yield, which moves in the opposite direction, rose to 5.67 percent from 5.63 percent late Tuesday.

Bonds traded in tandem with the stock market throughout the day, rising when the stocks declined and vice versa. Stocks erased a 125-point deficit and finished 59.47 higher at 8,546.78 in a bumpy session.

In the broader market, prices of short-term Treasury securities were unchanged, and intermediate maturities were up 1-16 point to 3-16 point, reported Bridge Telerate, a financial information service.

The Lehman Brothers Daily Treasury Bond Index, reflecting price movements on bonds with maturities of a year or longer, fell 1.62 points to 1,290.38.

Yields on three-month Treasury bills were 5.06 percent as the discount fell 0.01 percentage point to 4.94 percent. Six-month yields were 5.19 percent, as the discount fell 0.01 percentage point to 5.00 percent. One-year yields were 5.27 percent as the discount fell 0.01 percentage point to 5.02 percent.

Yields are the interest bonds pay by maturity, while the
Bonds Fall as Stock Market Recovers

The federal funds rate, the interest on overnight loans between banks, rose to 5.56 percent from 5.44 percent.

In the tax-exempt market, the Bond Buyer index of 40 actively traded municipal bonds fell 1-16 point to 123 5/8. The average yield to maturity was unchanged at 5.24 percent.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:01 - ID#219363)
Haha .. whoa now! Tensions are high! No need to cast me off as the enemy of Gold and the faithful follower of nations and governments. I own Gold too, and I'm one of the gold-bug buddies.

But I'm also open to other interpretations. In my profession I have to be objective, pragmatic, and a realist ( else reality hurts me ) . Nothing much is black and white to me, more subtle shades of shifting grey.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:02 - ID#210235)
I believe we taxpayers were buying on the futures exchanges, not the real thing. Leverage, you know. Tail wags the dog.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:03 - ID#344206)
RJ make your call
Some fairly notable advisors are calling for Gold to rally towards 325 by August I would be interested in your denying or confirming be ifun to see where your at after which I'll offer a tidbit somewhat confidential you may find it to be of value concerning the Swiss I think you understand no more will i offer until you prove your worth

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:03 - ID#342376)
@ ROR, Silverfox and jefsilver7
Thanks for all the clarification on the "Big Bang" My post was a response to jims 17:21 where he mentioned 1/01/99 as the date of deregulation. I put in my post that I had remembered 4/01/98 as the "Big Bang" Anyway, I guess we were both right as jefsilver7 pointed out that this deregulation is happening in phases.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:07 - ID#260389)
Any Precther Followers?
If I understand wave theory and his reading of it we would be looking at an XAU or 5-10 in a couple of years. Figure a ratio of about 3 to 1 for the XAU and you could have gold at 15-30 an oz. Anyone?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:11 - ID#93241)
Studio.R 19:54
Sorry to hear about your locoweed...hope you got other irons in the fire!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:14 - ID#388209)
Prommy !
Don't you know Wille Slick will swear that Buddy put that dna on the dress !
Do you think that Buddy will take the fall & fake the blood test like Slick did in Primary Colors to cover his last attemt at fatherhood ? I think Buddy is smart enough to get a layer who is not a card carrying FOB. Even M figured out that Ginsberg was really working for the Slick meister's spin cycle "sluts & nutts" bimbo eruption patrol !
I understand his 2nd line of defense is the "DOG PATCH defense !
Apparrently it has been scientifically demonstrated by Dr. Lee that the average juror in the District of Columbia that the Arkansaw gene pool is shallow enough to produce an infinite number of indistinguishable dna matches. Dr. Lee say, "Something wrong here !"
Thanks for the LOLROF postig. You are my cyber dream girl !



(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:26 - ID#190411)
I know that, it's just the utterly unconstitutional nature of these transactions that frosts me.

I'd like to see one of our so called representatives audit the federal "reserve", and Trashery dept. to find the culprits in this unauthorised trading.
They do howl when some Japanese copper trader manipulates the market.
He is serving time for that.
I slightly doubt that Greenspan would countenance a govt. attack of gold, primarily because he got his name recognition as an economist from the stuff he wrote as a disciple of Ayn Rand. But, that's all in the past.
To put one's trust in any political creature, which he is, is suicidal. I love it when the semi-literate self-appointed stockseller-economists sing paeons to our savior AG. I bet that he is even embarassed by these mawkish sentiments.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:30 - ID#373284)
The more I see the more I realize that the The Sovereign Indivdual by Davison
and Mogg is a blueprint for everything after 2000...yes indeedy...uh huh

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:30 - ID#344206)
I'm still here
Come on now lads \I'm still waiting hike your skirts up Do you find this of some fun? Only so much time Stand up get off the beach Every one doesn't make it better hurry RJ you know what I mean

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:34 - ID#373284)
should have read Davidson...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:34 - ID#190411)
I know that, it's just the utterly unconstitutional nature of these transactions that frosts me.

I'd like to see one of our so called representatives audit the federal "reserve", and Trashery dept. to find the culprits in this unauthorised trading.
They do howl when some Japanese copper trader manipulates the market.
He is serving time for that.
I slightly doubt that Greenspan would countenance a govt. attack of gold, primarily because he got his name recognition as an economist from the stuff he wrote as a disciple of Ayn Rand. But, that's all in the past.
To put one's trust in any political creature, which he is, is suicidal. I love it when the semi-literate self-appointed stockseller-economists sing paeons to our savior AG. I bet that he is even embarassed by these mawkish sentiments.

Gee it's taking forever to post tonight. Perhaps the PPT is spamming Bart's site.

Or, is it jujubee's continuing war with F*?
He reminds me of the Japanese that surrendered in the 80's to powers that fought forty years before.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:34 - ID#388209)
A wise & sage perspective .
Thanks for your thoughts. The Chinese have the balance & flexibility to see the contradictions in all dogma. Their cultural preference for authoritarianism currently manifested in the evil empire of totalitarian oppression & corruption may never pass, but there is a better than 70 % chance that this communist phase will be over by say 2001 & a 60/40% that they will slide to facism like most of the rest of Asia. Still under a facist model, with their natural advantages, they could easily snatch hegemony from Japan .
All, ofcourse, IMHIPO.
Thanks again for your thuoght provking post.



(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:36 - ID#219363)
Do tell.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:38 - ID#43349)
Are you there? Tomorrow is Thursday. I would not advise waiting til Friday. Next week will not be a happy week.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:40 - ID#190411)
double post
I stoppped it and added some while I had ten minutes.


And to APH, I couldn't resist the stuff about the seer on montelwilliams. It is nothing personal with you, it is with the government. That's getting personal.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:44 - ID#344206)
A single ounce
there is not enough But you try to get rich by cornering some unattainable market if only you got your hundred oz. or so you would be safe but to greedy are we You have not done your homework too lazy is how we end up Take delivery the likes of RJ he knows probably has a few thousand oz. despite his auguments of leverage the time is coming won't be so much fun they will look to hang us because we know BY the way I do numbers real well to Doesn't matter much you know it Jesters only make Kings happy with the right song Tell the truth tell them to hurry so they won't get caught Have some HONOUR

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:51 - ID#344206)
I've had too much fun
The best places in the world have I stayed But equality is in the ownership of the yellow and they know the rest is simply paper and bravado but the game soon ends and has ended for some as well the wise One opportunity as we pass 320 make your plans Guys like me and RJ need the game to make a living but soon it will be supply and demand That is why I say get your Oz. I know what I say So does RJ You hurray

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:53 - ID#190411)
Happy for whom?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:55 - ID#190411)
Pardon the fool
I said APH, I meant PHinLA. Doofus.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 22:57 - ID#219363)
What's the spark ?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:01 - ID#411259)
..... Cressy .....

Whatever you are saying
I don't get it, but I know
I don't want any part of it
I'm tired of all that is not gold

Righty O

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:03 - ID#210235)
Namast, my friend.

The Sovereign Individual is unique, and well worth the time. Bought and read it on your recommendation, and I thank you for it. Had to special order it from my local independent bookseller, but only took three days to get it from their distributor.

Hope you are staying cool and enjoying this summer. Came home to 109 degree heat yesterday. Rather like the sauna being on the fritz. Better today, though. Whew!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:04 - ID#317193)
fish always take the BAIT

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:05 - ID#210235)
Good evening, Limey. How goes it with the Mockingbird nest?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:08 - ID#254274)
Although I am not as familiar with the Japanese military orientation, I see that they learned their lesson the hard way in the stock market. Look at the impact it has, and not just short term, but much longer, on subsequent attitudes and actions about investing. We are not likely to see them get back into equities in the near term. No, they are into harsh realities, i.e., the bottom line, no B.S., pay me the dividends, income, cash, and no hype promises. for this reason, I disagree with you about their prospects for the future. Accounting and investing must take on a different tone from these experiences, as it is bound to do even in our own economy. They can still be an industrial powerhouse, which they do well, without the overburden of speculation. We should all take heed from their recent lessons, and what is about to befall our own loose attitudes in investing. Although this is my observation ( not my opinion ) , it seems that the chinese too are and will go through the equities catharsis, unless they realize beforehand what is happening.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:09 - ID#401460)
Hanoi Jane & CNN



(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:11 - ID#187109)
about gold...and a diversified portfolio
but 25%??? huh? not even smelly-cheeze-weenie does that.......

Cressy - what ARE you saying?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

tick-tock, tick-tock.....the bull ran up the clock........the clock struck...............................clang ( ! )

go gold........... ( ugh ) ... search for bargains..........

has anyone heard of Pennaco Energy?? PNEG ......... ( for the second time ) ................ ( tapping his foot in anticipation ) ...............

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:12 - ID#411259)
..... Promey .....

Six weeks from building
Five weeks from laying
Four weeks from hatching
Three chicks a-Cheeping
Two Mocks a-Flying
And a nest in a sago palm tree


(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:17 - ID#373284)
Prometheus, Namaste' and a fine gulp of Patron tequila to ya...goodness me...
that is Mars hot...I am glad you enjoyed the is a solid read...glad you arrived home more gulp to that...uh huh...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:18 - ID#253418)
Japan's Big Bang
Thanks for the discussion and clarification on the subject of the Big Bang which is in phases with the next being 1/1/99.

I knoew I wasn't crazy having seen this discussed at other times on this board. The earlier and I assume well informed post suggests the buying will be in bonds and not stocks. We will see, there being no prohibition against stock purcases by these Japanese funds I don't think they can be dismissed as a bullish influence on stocks.

I klnow it correct here to be bearish on stocks so I'll concede that if $ 6 trillion dollars of savings which can go where it wants won't go into US stocks - see you on the way past 10,000 in January.,

Meanwhile the Japance yen is weaker overnight while asian stock markets are mixed. European currencies are loosing ground to the dollar. I throw this in so remind those who have fallen in love with their metals and metal stocks ( to the neglect of looking at the chart ) that the trend currently is going the other way and until the Dollar index closes for the week below 100 I have to conclude that the dollar is still KING and the beloved silver and gold is its slaves.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:22 - ID#373284)
EB, Namaste' and a gulp and a puff at ya...I know zip on the oil company you mentioned
you may find something here?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:27 - ID#411259)
..... Promey .....

After reviewing the last, I see
My time line is outta whack
Start at week five, and then
Shove a week between
The laying and the hatching
And THAT is how my fine birds are doing


(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:28 - ID#210235)
@Congratulations, Uncle RJ
and a hearty gulp of fine Merlot to you!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:30 - ID#373284)
on Nightline
Financial experts...ah,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha...

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:31 - ID#210235)
( copyright Ted )
Great to be home.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:32 - ID#43349)
Three princes
Once upon a time there were three prices who all wanted to marry the king's daughter.

The king couldn't decide which prince to give his daughter's hand in marriage to. They were all equally fit, equally good looking, equally wealthy and so forth.

He decided to give her hand to the wisest one and to this end he devised a little test, a contest to see which might be the best.

It so happened that the trading of commodities and stocks was of some importance to the king nad the kingdom, so naturally it would have to be a test that would favor whichever one might have the right stuff for success at that sort of thing.

He had them all sit at a table facing each other, much as the traders at the local market did. On each of their heads he had placed either a black dot or a red dot.

They had all agreed to some simple rules and agreed that any failing to abide by the rules would be put to death. This to prove the seriousness of their intent and ardor for the princess.

They could not speak. If any of them saw a red dot on the head of either one or both of the others he was to hold up his hand. If he saw no red dot but only black on each of the others he was to keep his hand down.

If any of them simply took a wild guess and was wrong he would be put to death.

The first of them to determine the color of the dot upon his own head would be the one to wed.

Suffice it to say that after they had sat silently staring at each other for quite some length of time, the one named RJ suddenly jumped up and ran to the king. He told the king the correct color and explained how he knew. He was correct.

What was the color of dot on RJ's head, and how did he know?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:33 - ID#411259)
..... Their Names Are .....



Mtn Bear (SE)
(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:36 - ID#347267)
I owned shares of Amax Gold prior to the Kinross takeover; The symbol for Amax Gold was AU as many here know. When I heard that the "new" symbol for AngloGold was AU, I read the PR release and look what I found:

Quote 8/5/98 ( WRONG )
"AngloGold took over its symbol from AMAX Gold Inc. after acquiring the Denver,Colo., company last month, according to an official at the New York Stock Exchange."

What is real:

"Effective June 1, 1998, Amax Gold completed a business combination with Kinross Gold Corporation pursuant to which Amax Gold became a subsidiary of Kinross Gold USA, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Kinross. The common shares of Kinross are listed on The Toronto Stock Exchange and the New York Stock Exchange."

I don't think Angly has bought Kinross too have they?? Looks like they might get the facts straight, Huh? Oh well, such is PR! Oh BTW, KGC looks mighty good down here.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:44 - ID#190411)
Mtn Bear SE
Me too. See 21:34.
I was awash in moolah when I checked Yahoo quotes today.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:45 - ID#320202)
EB - Pennaco Energy
I found following on the compuserve investor service : supposedly these are the same people as Ultra petroleum. - apparently, they have a large acreage position, some 400,000 net acres, which is huge, in the Powder Basin - noticed it doubled overnight to $6 in huge volume !!

A report ( mentioned below ) says that the bulk of Pennaco's acreage was purchased at approximately $35 per acre [they have a 10 year lease on about 400,000 acres] and this same acreage is now leasing for between 180-300 per acre. This makes Pennaco's lease worth between $80-120 million for a company that only has a market cap of $70 million.

Additionally it is noted that pipeline demand in the Powder River Basis is soaring. and that makes Pennaco's largest land position incredibly valuable in negotiating for piepline capacity and placement. The company is also established the upper hand with respect to drill rig allocation. Pennaco recently purchased a 33% interest in Coalbed Methane Drilling, LLC, whereby Pennaco has been granted a"preferred right" on all of the company's rigs. This ensures that the drill rigs will be available and dedicated to Pennaco's planned drilling program.

The budget is said to be $50 milion dollars and the plan is to drill 800 wells over the next 18 months. Call 1-800-380-2310 for a corporate profile.

Did you get a solicitation from the publisher of the "The Natural Contrarian" by Scott Fraser that is touting Pennaco Energy Inc. ( NASDAQ: BB:PNEG ) as a huge play.? Its allegedly located smack dab in the coal beds producing huge quanities of methane gas in Wyoming, and is said to be ripe for a joint partnership with a major.


(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:48 - ID#269207)
@ where are the investors gonna run to
Prometheus? and if they do run, will it hurt more than it will help
them individually or collectively? If you ask me they bought the farm
and have to eat dirt now....and trading one medium of exchange for another...well who knows what will be the better deal..In the Long run Gold will be, because you can trust Gold.... but in the short term...
will/would a mass exodus to metals be worse than a slow slide into unemployment and holding onto the bear's tail?

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:49 - ID#431263)
But the HANG SENG just hit a fresh 52-week LOW!!! Down @ 2%!! Could easily take out 7,000 tonight! George Soros ready to start attackin' the
HK Dollar! Will definitely have NEGATIVE implications for GERMANY and Britain! And the PLUNGE CONTINUES!!!

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:49 - ID#411259)
..... Goldy? .....

Goldy is the quiet one
But wise beyond her days
Silvey is the skittish one
Always straining to be fed
Platonius is the clever one
You can see it in his eyes

I am teaching them the ways of the world
In low and conspiratorial tones
And only when mom is out about
Getting grubs and other tasty slime

Mom don't like me much though
She will loudly complain
Should I linger near the nest to long
To wit, my most often reply

Alrighty Indeedy Already! I'm going!


(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:50 - ID#338111)
If you *like* the financial analysts on Nightline, you should try Aussie commercial channel nine - "Money", with Paul Clitero

A young lady who works at McDonalds on 60K ( AUD ) is hailed a "property tycoon" with 1 million dollars of debt.

Good advice there!


Lan Man
(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:52 - ID#320108)
@re Shepler Market Timer
Flash Gordon_A: Bill has a daily market update sent out via e-mail. I forget what the sub price is, but I am on a 2 week eval. Reach him at

For 08/05/98 - rcvd before the bell
Market Commentary:

We have warned subscribers since the final top came in on July 20th
that the ensuing sell-off would likely be a nearly straight down affair
with only brief "dead-cat" rallies mixed in from time to time. So far
this has been the case. The bulls are not being given a chance to get
out, and the bears are not being given a chance to get in. Everybody is
waiting for the re-test of the highs, and some actually expect new highs
forthcoming. We continue to believe the will be sorely disappointed. We
continue to feel that it is best to get short and stay short since the
bounce most are expecting may never come. That said the possibility is
growing stronger for a better short-term bounce than what we have seen
so thus far.
Our proprietary buy/sell indicator is edginf towards a short-term
buy signal but has not given one yet. The danger in following such a
signal should it occur is that if we are truly in the beginning stages
of a bear market this indicator could get oversold and stay oversold as
the market trends lower. Therefore, unless sentiment gauges show a
corresponding healthy level of fear, we will ignore the buy/sell
So far sentiment is not budging, and by some measures is actually
getting more bullish as we fall. The OEX put/call ratio hit .88 on
Tuesday. That's right folks, on a day that the Dow mini-crashed 300
points speculators were buying more calls than puts! This is the "kiss
of death" for this market. The Rydex ratio did rise to 53%, but is still
far short of the nearly 80% reading last seen at the mid-June lows which
we have just surpassed. We need to see more erosion to convince the
stubborn bulls to capitulate. We already got a capitulation from Ralph
Acampora, maybe Abby Joseph Cohen is next.
On the market internals front, things have not been this bad for a
very long time. Tuesday new lows registered an astounding 559 issues
while new highs eked out a paltry 18 issues. This says that a vast
majority of stocks are now making new 52-week lows, and only a handful
are still making new highs. Folks, this is the unmistakeable mark of a
bear market. Decliners crushed Advancers 2611 to 508 Tuesday, and down
volume was an astounding 747 million shares versus only 75 million
shares of up volume. Volume registered 834 million shares lending major
confirmation to the break below the mid-June lows. In a true bear market
total volume and down volume should be expanding. This is happening.
So, our advice remains to sell any rallies here, and stay short. The
bear is still a cub and has a lot of growing left to do. We remain in
our profitable Ursa trade with no imminent plans to reverse course.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:54 - ID#43349)
Signing off
I guess you're not there, Skip. I am going to retire for the evening.

(Wed Aug 05 1998 23:55 - ID#373284)
clktech_A. Namaste' and a gulp to ya...ah yeah...these three people are making
my little head spin...sheesh...and people listen to them...yikes....