Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:02 - ID#335190)
MORE FLEXIBLE LABOR MARKET @ Demand of IMF $58 Billion S. Korea Bailout
August 23, 1998

Deal limiting layoffs ends Hyundai's 36-day strike

ULSAN, South Korea ( AP ) -- The management and union at Hyundai Motor Co. reached a compromise today, ending an outlawed 36-day strike at South Korea's largest automaker.

The compromise allowing "a minimum level of layoffs" came in government-mediated negotiations conducted on and off last week. Hyundai's 26,000-member union walked out July 20 to protest the company's plan to lay off 1,538 workers. Hyundai shed 6,100 earlier this year through early retirement.

The union demanded that the company cancel the latest layoff plan. Under the compromise, the company was allowed to lay off only 277, with the remaining 1,261 put on 1 1/2 years of unpaid leave.

The 277 to be laid off will be given enhanced severance payments and chances to be rehired by Hyundai or its subsidiaries, said a joint statement.

The company also agreed to contribute $5.7 million Cdn to the workers' welfare fund and minimize legal action against union leaders who led the outlawed labor dispute.

Creation of a "more flexible" labor market was one of the reforms South Korea promised in exchange for a $58-billion US bailout by the International Monetary Fund in December.

But accustomed to lifetime employment, Korean workers have resisted layoffs with a spate of strikes this year.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:02 - ID#34883)
@the aether
when Cromwell said f#ck you I dont' want to be King! an American was born. Do you hear that satraps?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:09 - ID#402131)
a question for all
When this thing goes blows up it is pretty much agreed that you want your gold, cash and silver. Anyone thought about ammo? In the Rodney King riots in CA the cops left the area and banned the sale of gasoline and AMMO!!!!! Guns couldn't be bought at all because of the waiting period. You had to wait 14 days before you could buy a gun. Thats a long LONG time. You might find one for GREEN CASH?? somewhere?
Also I meant to say many lead .22 round have wax lube and that GUMS up any action-don't buy ammo that has a wax lube. USe copper plated ammo in .22

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:11 - ID#257136)
Bingo your 22:20 asks a question.Ihave been told by folks from Hot Springs that his mama had a lot
of acquaintances and that a prominent Hot Springs Dr. ( M.D. ) was among them and was the most likely candidate.
For a dysfunctional family such as it was, I would not be surprised if the father of Rosemary's baby had a direct hand ( or other member ) in the matter.
( 8*^} ) [

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:13 - ID#373284)
goldfevr, Namaste'
all that is,could, might, may be you...mine are cheeks which are flushed with your kindness...walk in the Apple without fear...foundative are those who stole the sand to create the foundation of the Empire State building...NorthPort eh...lest I forget...I forget nothing...I forgive all..all...all...

My TRUE LOVE to all...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:14 - ID#335190)
Russia @ Gold & Oil

Russian energy policy is rapidly changing. The leading Russian oil-companies are either getting out of existing deals with their Western partners or are trying to negotiate them, sensing more profit to come from the oil market, especially from crude. That is why several important Western oil-investment projects are frozen and are to be stalled for indefinite period.

Here are some, the most important.Amoco Corp. is involved in Priobskoye oil project in Western Siberia with estimated reserves of 4,7 billion barrels. Investment is 100 million USD so far with 57 billion USD projected.

Northern Territories project / Nenets national autonomy/ is attacked by Conoco / a unit of Du Pont Co/ eager to develop its 500 million barrel potential . Investment - about 95 mln USD so far with projected 1,5 billion USD.

Timan Pechora project / North-Western Siberia/ attracted Texaco Corp, Amoco, Exxon ans Norsk Hydro, who spent already millions of dollars , hoping to profit from its 2,4 billion barrel potential. 50 billion USD investment is envisaged.

Mobil, Exxon and Texaco went to Sakhalin to explore its oil reserves at estimated 150 million USD cost.

All these projects are stalled due to joint resistance of local authorities and Russian oil companies, who are turning to strong protectionism now.

The strongest Russian banks, such as ONEXIMBANK and MENATEP BANK are taking hold of oil fields.

In Russian Parliament only Communists stood before against foreign investments into the energy sector. Now they found an ally - their former arch-enemy multi-billionaire Berezovsky, who is quickly becoming Russian oil-magnate N 1. He uses his governmental position of a Deputy Chief of the Russian Security Council to strengthen his own gains and his protectionist policy in energy sector.

Homo Soveticus heard the following from a sure source: " If you want to speak oil in Russia, speak to Berezovsky!" Here is another proof to that - after an open conflict with first deputy prime-ministers Mr.Chubais and Mr.Nemtsov in mid-November 1987 Mr.Nemtsov lost his post of the Energy Minister / read our Homosov Commentary /.

Now Berezovsky is after the Russian state company Rosneft, a real giant , equal to such oil monstres as Exxon. Russian privatisation process is escalating in energy sector and to the end of 1998 the Russian state will free itself of all oil and gas shares to the utmost joy of new oil barons.


The Russian gouvernement authorised for the first -time since NEP ( 1922-1924 ) a selling of gold ingots to Russian citisens and even to foreigners. Up to one kilo of gold can be bought. The price is lower, than that of London gold market - about $ 300 .00 fix.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:17 - ID#215379)
Ministry of
If you don't make good your threats to buy and support the Yen tonight, shame on your head for leading the world down the path to Armaggedon. The world will follow you out of this quagmire if you lead the way

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:19 - ID#284255)
Thanks for your words.
But have you tried that test online?

Have you actually gone to that link I provided and done that test?
That is all I'm interested in.
Not past results but a current test with that specific sites software.

The test is done online in a minute.
No lownloading at all.
Too easy.

Sorry to bug you, but I'm curious on this specific software.
I had earlier done tests with other versions of Y2k software.
And considered my PC's safe.
Till I did that test.

I know. My machine is full of non compliant programs.
Plus the seven charting programs I run.
And all my databases too.
All dysfunctional!!!!!
I'd say at a guess 80% of my PC is going to be dysfunctional
It's enough to make a man spit chips.
500 Days and Counting - must read article.
Microsoft Corp's chief technical officer, Nathan Myhrvold, says regarding Y2K: "It's very hard to tell how bad the situation will be. I'm sure things will break. It's very hard to dispel a nightmare scenario. There are millions of lines of code in every person's life, and some percentage will be affected. The dark-side scenario of airplanes falling out of the sky and bank computers crashing is possible. But it's fundamentally very hard to know whether the impact will be little or big."

The Year 2000: Social Chaos or Social Transformation? - must read article.
We have created not only a computer-dependent society, but an interdependent planet.
But the interdependency problem extends far beyond single businesses, or even entire industries. Indirect relationships extend like tentacles into many other networks, creating the potential for massive disruptions of service.

Race goes on to keep power from going off

Y2K is Showcasing the Government's Worst Instincts,2334,14396,00.html

ALEX PATELIS vs. EDWARD YARDENI: The millennium bug

Fire Services Face Y2K Challenge - from FEMA

Travel agents face lockout - 1st Jan 1999

How Do I Know If My System Is Year 2000 Compliant? - FEMA

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:19 - ID#347185)
Good advice and clarifications here so-far...
Whatever you might decide is best for you, you should shoot several varieties before you make up your mind. Then you need to shoot quite a bit to be comfortable. I strongly suggest an NRA course. ( taken from the most normal and least commercial instructor you can find ) This should ameliorate most of your fear of hurting yourself -while encouraging healthy respect and concern.

A shotgun can be easy to use and point, but very difficult to carry around if you are interested in self-defense outside your home. In which case I always recommend a revolver for a beginner. -Ruger SP101 in .357 is excellent. Shoot .38 Special ammo. and move up to .357 someday if you like. Utterly reliable, can't go off unless you squeeze the trigger, great grips...try a Smith&Wesson if you have small hands.

Good luck, if you happen to be in MA I can suggest the best instructor :- ) or I can offer more info via e-mail.

Gosh I love Kitco, sorry I don't have more to offer on the tech. side, but boy do I benefit.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:21 - ID#284255)
Oldman - Mr. bull - its time for him to put up or shut up.
oleman . . Best one I know I posted here Fri nite: Buy spoos tonite at 1081. That
was 4 ticks off the bottom.

oleman . . I dont know of a BETTER intermediate term buy signal than the PVI. As
you can see, if you bought it every time you get that buy signal, you don't
do too badly.: )

oleman . . It's noteworthy that, unlike all the other bull runs of the last 4 yrs,
the move off the 6/15 bottom did NOT have the underpinning of a PVI buy
signal. Not enough fear down there. Mr. bull has that going for him now, so
its time for him to put up or shut up.

oleman . . If, as many think, 8/19 is the top of a wave 3 down, it wont matter
how many puts have been bought, it's goin down. Better be short below last
week's low, IMO.

fozzie . . dropped wifey off at dulles airport a few hours was THICK

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:22 - ID#434298)
How far from cities is far enough?
In Pennsylvania, especially the southern & eastern PA, and likely in much of the east there is an astounding density of homes even in the "country". Driving along some of the back roads one finds homes every few hundred feet, then maybe a few tenths of a mile of forest or fields, then another string of homes. This pattern continues, in some areas, for a hundred miles outside of cities like Pittsburg. It seems every nook and cranny has a home in it or several homes.

This poses a question...
Would all this "rural" population impede or facilitate the spread of violence from the cities? Would it provide "fuel" for a wildfire of varmints living off the land? Would large stretches of sparse population such as in the midwest or west slow down the wildfire?
Would such a density of "rural" and hopefully armed population absorb the hoards of varmints and bury them in their backyards for compost?

I remember a friend who knew a survivalist living in eastern Tennessee. He asked that survivalist why there and not Idaho or Montana? The guy's answer was that no matter from which direction "they" would come, they would have to get through hundreds of miles of hillbillies. They wouldn't make it. {his use of the term "hillbillies" was not derogatory but respectful of their abilities}

Old Soldier
(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:26 - ID#185274)
Rack 23:58 grenade humor, advice to beginners
ROTFLOL re grenades. Seriously, effectiveness of grenades as stoppers is overblown.. Grenades are primarily wounding weapons. Recall that now Senator Max Cleland didnt even kill himself when he dropped one at his feet. Rather serious self-abbreviation though.

All caliber discussions are interesting but hitting your mark is most important. Beginners, start with a .22 and after 5,000 rounds move to something bigger. By that time you will have been around lots of guns and shooters and have some idea what you want.

If you are not willing to take the time effort and expense of shooting 5,000 rounds of .22 get a 20 gauge shotgun and shoot 25 rounds for familiarization.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:29 - ID#202135)
RE Steve in TO, Hong Kong Intervention
Steve_in_TO asked if anyone here lives in Hongkong. I have lived here for 20 years.

The HK Govts intervention on the stock market and futures market has met with criticism from all quarters. On Sunday, there was an excellent speech by Christine Loh ( a local politician ) who I think got it right. She said that those in the goverment that came up with the plan to intervene are not professionals in the markets and the whole scheme reflects badly on HK as an open market.

The hedge fund managers have been kept away this time, but now they will understand how the HK govt play the game and get ready to attack again.

This is certainly a good reason to be a gold bug in HK right now, but so far I have not seen any movements in the local gold market.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:33 - ID#318271)
sharefin test
checked compliant. even with 1st item failed ( RTC ) .

Old Soldier
(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:39 - ID#185274)
Rural vs suburban
In my mind rural means self sufficient. Includes; guns, animals for protection, work and food, crop raising ability, water well, generator, tractor, welder, all kinds of hand and power tools, chain saws ( very important ) , traps, fishing gear, stored fuel, lots of technical and tactical knowledge.

Yep, they can't get through many old soldiers, hillbillies, or rednecks but they can sure plow a swath through city slickers gone suburban.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:42 - ID#290172)
Hysterical laughter emanating from this site...
and a new willingness to give Tolerant1's Tequilla a try...

Statement by Harold J. Johnson, Jr. Associate Director, International Relations and Trade Issues,
National Security and International Affairs Division General Accounting Office before the Joint Economic Committee United States Congress
Thursday, July 23, 1998

International Monetary Fund:
Observations on Its Financial Condition
Availability of IMF's Currency Holdings
IMF's determination of available currency holdings, its primary source of readily available funding for carrying out its operations, is based on its judgment concerning the level of usable currency and the level of reserves needed for contingencies. IMF officials have stated that reserves are necessary for two reasons: ( 1 ) to maintain sufficient working balances in various currencies to execute foreign exchange transactions and ( 2 ) to have available for use in the event that some currencies become unusable and can no longer be used to finance IMF transactions due to a deterioration in members' balance of payments and external reserve positions.

There are several steps involved in calculating the amount of resources IMF has readily available for operations. First, IMF calculates the amount of currency holdings from quotas, which was estimated to be about $195 billion as of July 20, 1998. HOWEVER, ONLY THE CURRENCIES OF MEMBERS WITH SUFFICIENTLY STRONG BALANCE OF PAYMENTS and gross external reserve positions are used or usable by IMF for financing its transactions and are included in its operational budget, which is a nonpublic


{and after the Tequilla, bed! Goodnight.}

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:44 - ID#284255)
LongorShort - thanks for the test results
That is the reply given to most tests on modern PC's under 2 years old.

You will probably need a new motherboard.

Did you read the article on "Time Warping"?
I posted earlier.

This is the cruncher.
Everything else may be compliant BUT
Time warping is very real.
Tests found that PC's clocks ran forward 9 months in the first 2 weeks of 2000.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:46 - ID#433172)
I don't understand. Are you trying to villanize Americans? Native Americans?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:50 - ID#215379)
Time to take the role of World leadership, the USA has forfeited its right because of immoral leadership. You can lead the world without firing a weapon...

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:53 - ID#347267)
Sharefin Test
Failed first 4 Items; Already knew RTC problem; planned upgrade early next year: Recommendations for $1500-$1800 range?? ( no Mac because of software requirements ( unless macs can operate a lot of OLD software ) .

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:54 - ID#434298)
Exodus from cities during Y2Kaos
We in the northern/snowbelt portion of the northern hemisphere
or in the mountains may be better off with respect to an influx of refugees and varmints. Cold, snow & ice may be our allies in thinning out the hoards even before they get out of the cities. Add a winter storm and lack of snowplowing or salting/sanding and the roads will be a mess. They will turn into plugged up parking lots only motorcycles or snowmobiles will be able to get through.

My experience with New England winter camping evidenced that, as far as encountering other people was concerned, a mile off the road in January was like day's hike into the backwoods in July. For those who are prepared for living off the grid during such a winter, this may be as much of a blessing as living in Australia in January of Y2Kaos.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:56 - ID#402131)
Could you repost your Y2K check out site?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:56 - ID#34883)
You ain't been here long.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 00:57 - ID#238422)
Old Soldier
Thanks for your comments. I really do not have serious
reliability problems with my 22 cal. guns. except that
from time to time some cheap ammo I use a lot
( mostly Wildcats by Winshester ) may cause misfire on the
first strike of the firing pin ( second one usually produces
ignition ) . I noticed it happenes with a frequency of 1:250
or so... On the other hand, CCI ammo was always 100% reliable.
Guess, it depends upon manufacturer of ammo a little bit,
mostly on the technology of putting priming compount around
the inside the case rim.

It's difficult to explain why 22 is so deadly, considering
the power of this round, but it is. I think bullet deforms so
much that the resulting piece of lead, which has random
shape, just starts crushing all around the area it travels
through. As my Russian shooting instructor said many years
ago - "I would really hate to be hit by this 22..." He was
a WWII vet and knew how it feels to be hit...

I agree about bigger caliber effectiveness and stuff, and
I bet you got a nice .45 with a lot of miles on it but
100% reliable ( because of those miles ) , yes? I got .357 Mag,
couple of 9 mm's, and 22 cal. Goverment Model, which I shoot
95% of the time. I practice slow classy "russian" target
shooting with one hand, "american" target shooting with
2 hands, rapid firing with 2 hands ( 10 shots-10 seconds )
and my own style - 2x2 fast shots and 2x3 fast shots, trying
to hit 2 targets with 2 ( or 3 shots ) as accurate and fast
as I can. Of course, I try to move around from time to time,
and vary distances from 10 yards to 30 yards.

What is your way of training, if it's not a secret?

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:07 - ID#347267)
Another very reputable site for computer test and info:

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:08 - ID#290281)
Y2K Testing

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:11 - ID#402131)
Old Soldier
My father brought home a short old fellow one time. Didn't think much of it at the time, learned later the guys name was Lewis Millett ret US Army Medal of Honor winner. That guy wrote a lot of history. I'll never forget his tears when talking about the guy that they disappeared for security reasons ( classified KIA ) but known to have been captured.
in Viet Nam. Later heard his name mentioned in the same league as some of Delta top people-can't remember name ( Charlie Beckworth? ) thats world class stuff

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:12 - ID#288399)
Grizz/NE Winters
Grizz, living in "rural" northwest Connecticut, ontop of what is referred to as a "mountain" on the maps, I've often prayed that the winter will bail us out of y2Kaos ( as far as the "hordes" part goes ) . Also, if there is little gasoline available, how are these people even going to make it an hour out of the city? if there is gasoline available for extensive road plowing, y2K won't have turned out that bad/there will be food.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:17 - ID#288399)
Grizz/NE Winters
Grizz, living in "rural" northwest Connecticut, ontop of what is referred to as a "mountain" on the maps, I've often prayed that the winter will bail us out of y2Kaos ( as far as the "hordes" part goes ) . Also, if there is little gasoline available, how are these people even going to make it an hour out of the city? if there is gasoline available for extensive road plowing, y2K won't have turned out that bad/there will be food.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:22 - ID#209265)
Grant, Envy, Shlomo . . .
I've never shot anything other than hunting quarry, and have never had to use a gun for self defense. I do have a friend who has had to ( yes, here in gun-banned Canada ) and he maintains a shotgun is absolutely the best home-defense weapon, in agreement with you Grant. Fortunately, he didn't have to fire, the intruder very wisely took off as fast as he could. He said the intruder must have been a bit of a dummy- to get in he just smashed a sliding glass door. Everybody in the neighbourhood would have been able to hear it.

When the police came around they checked that he had a FAC and was storing his shotgun according to regs. and didn't give him any grief about defending his home. Of course if he had fired that would have been the start of a lot of time & expense dealing with the legal system.

Envy and Shlomo- concerning the issue of a handgun vs shotgun, keep this in mind. As many as 20% of police officers who are shot, are shot using their own handguns! These are guys who have had gun training and who are experienced in dealing with altercations.

How well do you think you will do if you encounter a criminal who has been practicing hangun disarms ( this is information that is passed from prisoner to prisoner in penitentiaries, and they do practice with each other. )

In my martial arts training I have seen a video by two men who consult to police and military forces on gun techniques. These guys were able to get the guns out of their opponents' hands *every time* before they were able to get a shot off, as long as they were within arm's reach.

Another interesting thing is that a fellow who teaches knife fighting says that he tested the adequacy of a handgun against a determined knife attack by outfitting pairs of students, one with a revolver and the other with a rubber training knife. The shooter was concentrating on using the gun, and was wide open to a classical neck attack. He said that from 10' away all his students were able to get their rubber knife across the guy's neck before they heard the click of the hammer ( terrible way to abuse a gun, don't do this with a valuable gun. ) His best knife fighters were able to get the worst handgun users from 20' away. Of course, he teaches them in a real altercation how to go for the wrist while staying out of the line of fire and disable it, then deal with the rest of the opponent.

Before planning on using a handgun for self-defense I would get training. You have to first get good enough to actually hit anything at all at a safe distance. You can't let an attacker get closer than 10' to you, and I can vouch for the fact that hitting even a person-sized object further than 20' away takes practice if it is moving.

Shotguns make hitting your target easy, and they are much harder for someone to get away from you, should they be able to reach you before you can fire.

Speaking of all this gun defense info. a seminar is coming up that may interest anyone in the Toronto area. A former Russian commando ( Spetznaz ) trainer is doing a session on fighting & self defense inside a car, with particular reference to carjackings. Let me know if you'd be interested in details.

- Steve

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:23 - ID#33164)
Y2K Compliancy Test
Thank you sharefin!! & Hello & best wishes to you All.

Did the test- & failed 4-
RTC [whatever that is?] DOS, Bios & Windows.
So frustrating!I have only just had Windows98 installed,
& have to find my way back to all sorts of files anyway....

Oh, dear!!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:24 - ID#34191)
Testing my pc
Fellow kooks:

Please post the site that will y2k test my pc. Do I need to check all of my programs too? The computer is only a year old and I got it from Micron. I use win95 and MSMoney. I'm 25 miles from a town of 10,000 in the middle of no where. Got generator, pantry, 500 gal propane tank, several gas and diesel tanks, well water, a crick, guns, ammo, and good neighbors.


(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:24 - ID#290118)
Macs and OLD software
Macs fall into three basic groups regarding software compatibility.
1 ) Those with the MC68000 processor - Mac 128s, 512s, Plus, and SE.
2 ) Those with the MC68030 or 68040 - SE/30, Cx, IIsi, most notebooks, etc.
3 ) Those with a PowerPC processor - all of the current production.
Software written for one of these groups may not run on another group.
Some well-written software runs on anything from a 1984 Mac 128 to a PPC.
But I have a collection of stuff {Excel, Word, Works, and more} written for the 16-bit Mac 128s through Mac Plus that works great even on the 32-bit 68030 machines. Some games and other special software crashes the 68030. Same for PPC. Some software written for 68030 will crash on a PPC.
Backward compatibility is even worse since software has grown in RAM requirements and depends on features of newer processors and operating system versions. Software that demands system 7.x is effectively eliminated from older systems that don't have the RAM to run system 7. Yes I have run system 7.x on an SE with 4MB of RAM but it is not worth it other than as an academic test. This is like running Windows 95 on a 386 with 8MB of RAM. It may work but it can't do much else.

For Y2K the old Mac128s may indeed be easily powered by a foot-treadle hooked up to a generator/converter/battery setup. The exercise may be good anyway. I doubt they demand more than a 40-watt lightbulb - they don't even have a fan - they are cooled by convection. Their power supply is 60watts maximum.
I could still be productive with Excel 1.x and Word 1.x ( though I would not be able to log on to Kitco - but the Net may be down anyway ) .

There is no way I could keep a 350MHz PPC with a 21" display going with the same setup.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:25 - ID#257148)
---Up periscope---
Are the natives friendly?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:27 - ID#290118)
Cowgirl - come Y2K, heck with the computer!
You are set! We should all be so lucky to have such resources as you have. How are you set for neighbors though? Could you hold out by yourself from a determined band of thugs such as others here have warned about?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:29 - ID#290118)
Previous post question about neighbors is irrelevant
If they are set up like you are and are within support distance.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:32 - ID#347267)
Raids were "First Skirmish" NY Times

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:34 - ID#288399)
Fighting off intruders
Fifteen years ago or so, a man broke into my apartment ( sliding glass door ) while I was sleeping and trying to knock me unconscious before I woke up. However, I woke up. In that situation, unfortunately, a gun would have been useless, or worse, used against me if he had found it first. As hand to hand combat with intruders is not just a theoretical exercise for me, but a burned-in-the-brain reality, I don't know what's the best defense anymore. But I always remember what the troopers told me: if this ever happens again and you have a gun, shoot the bastard, put the gun in his hand, and we'll make sure it's case closed. As an easily distracted female, I guess a shotgun would be the best thing.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:34 - ID#219363)
Not looking very good. Hong Kong about even, that's good. Everything else for the most part is down quite a bit - some 3-5 percent. Not looking too good for the home team on this fine Monday morn.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:36 - ID#209265)
Hong Kong resident - thank you . . .
for the update from Hong Kong.

It's intersting how you can post without a username. Probably just as well now that Big Brother has his eye on you.

Warmest regards,

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:38 - ID#284255)
Here's the site
The test is conducted online and is quickly done.

How did your RTC test go?

I would lease rather than buy till after the changeover.
Cost effective with tax breaks.
Plus if it craps out you can throw it at them.

Also PC's constantly getting better.
You would get a lot better machine after Y2k.
And avoid getting a dud now.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:39 - ID#219363)
Tokyo Stocks Drop in Early Trading
TOKYO ( AP ) -- The dollar soared against the yen Monday morning after political turmoil in Russia prompted world investors to seek a safe haven in the U.S. currency. Tokyo stocks plunged. The dollar bought 145.06 yen in midday trading, up 2.12 yen from late Friday in Tokyo and also above its New York rate of 144.91 yen late Friday. On the Tokyo Stock Exchange, the benchmark 225-issue Nikkei Stock Average dropped below the psychologically-significant 15,000-point level, falling 408.69 points, or 2.67 percent, to 14,889.51 at the close of morning trading. On Friday, the average fell 93.21 points, or 0.61 percent.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:40 - ID#402131)
A question for you computer experts
I had occasion to run two computers on generators for a short time. on and off for a week or two. They only were used maybe 10 hours each.
Both crashed. one the hard drive crashed totally. the other had the mother board go to hell. The problems came to light a couple of months later. Could it have been the generators? fAnyone have any similar things like that happen? Could be a battery run system that the generator jus thcarged the batteries would be a good bet?
This is not the time to lose communications when the crap hit's the fan

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:40 - ID#39857)
Its not the gun that will save, but how quickly you think on your feet.
I reckon ferals in a forest with bows and arrows could wipe out a platoon of rednecks before they got off more half a dozen shots.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:45 - ID#293211)
The fourth seal is at Hand
As we will soon see the destruction of at least 20 Major
American cities starting with New York city, understand that
revelation 6 predicts that one fourth of the world will die
from the killing power described as "the sword" ( war ) , "hunger"
( famine ) , and "death" ( pestilence ) . This unholy trio is repeatly
found in the Old Testament as well. And this is not the end of the
world just WW3. The UN will be restructured with total power,and
the man who was the sixth UN leader shall again become the eighth.
( Hint- he an Egyptian ) this time he will rule as the anti-christ.
This will all start on or before the 9th of Nov 98. The Seventh UN leader who is in power now will only rule for 18 months ( God measures months by cycles like the moon )
The fact that pestilence always follows war and famine needs no documentation, but the scope of the destruction should be fully appreciated in order to understand the tremendous movement
towards a GREEN mentality that will follow this imminent global holocaust. 1.5 billion people are about to die in a very
brief time.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:45 - ID#347267)
CNNfN: Gold on the Recovery List
Friday's news, but sounds good anyway!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:47 - ID#284255)
RTC is the real time clock in your PC.
There is also a BIOS clock.

Seems the problem is when when starting up and shutting down these clocks write to each other - wrongly.

70% to 90% of PC's with non-compliant real time clocks
Will experience time warping.

So far we have amongst the Kitco crowd an average 90%+++

Are there any KITCOITES who have a RTC which has passed this test?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:48 - ID#153102)
@Sharefin @PC Compliant

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:50 - ID#290118)
Rack - in such a setup get a UPS (and an extra battery for it)
UPS = uninterruptible power supply which has a battery backup.
During low voltage, quality UPS's go to battery, same for high voltage.
Some computer systems can tolerate low voltage ( under 100volts ) but I bet that most can not. One of the risks of Y2K brown-outs which will burn out motors running under load - and likely crash hard drives too.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:53 - ID#402131)

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:55 - ID#402131)
I ran the test ( I think, I'm not a computer expert ) it did 100% of the tests and then I had the option to continue and that was the end.
Did I pass? I haven't got a clue

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:56 - ID#257148)
The Marshall Plan

Okkee, that was your happy post, now try to bring us down.


It's all been said before, your apocalyptical claptrap, many times over the centuries, compete with a revelation this and a Nostrodamus that, funnily enough, it's always been wrong. THis time will be different, eh sport?
Please don't forget to be tender to those around you. ( You should really find another group to preach like that apocalaclaptrap to )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 01:57 - ID#153102)
Even if the grid is up, it may be brown, light brown, black in rapid succession. Especially in summer months. Power supplies on PC's are not tolerant of frequency variation. A necessity is a uninterruptible power supply, one which always powers from the battery. Many bogus UPS products on the market, so look for an independent test for any unit before relying on it.

What products do you use for gun cleaning and care ?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:03 - ID#284255)
I am no expert, maybe other can explain better.
I would guess at dirty power problems.
Voltage spikes etc.

I would hazard a guess that a battery system fed by a generator.
With the necesary filters, surge protectors etc would be the go.

I would hazard a guess that the net will be dysfunctional come Y2k.
As well as local power supplies.

Untill they get these systems back up and running I would forget about logging onto the net.

It would be more productive being out in the garden growing food.

As well there'd be no markets functioning to watch and trade.

I don't intend to fix my PC's till after 2000.
At the moment I consider it a waste of time trying to get my PC compliant.
At least untill the authorities get their systems up and running.
What's the point having a compliant PC when most others are down.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:04 - ID#290118)
Aurator - please try some tolerance for the apocalypse predictions
Because there are a LOT of people who are beginning to take these predictions seriously or if not seriously, they are keeping an eye on the developments, i.e. the progress of completion of the various stages.
These folks, if they have doubts about being raptured, will be stocking up on food and supplies and be good candidates for buying GOLD.

I too find these predictions a bit much of a stretch, but I am keeping an ear open - just in case. If for no other reason than there are too many people who could be worked up into a panic and clean out the stores and cause other mayhem well before anything REAL crashes our infrastructure.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:11 - ID#209265)
Shlomo - I sympathise with you . . .
You've lived through a nightmare that few of us have to face. Here are some URL's that you might find valuable:

Note that the Assault Prevention Information Network has an interesting letter about chemical mace, and how it can sometimes be ineffective for self-defense. I personally think that police-strength pepper spray is better, but there have been cases of assailants who have not been stopped by even that spray directly into the eyes.

A great little gizmo you might think about is one of those personal attack alarms ( PAALS ) that are available from Quorum distributors, or from retailers such as Starshire:

Starshire also has some other nifty self defense devices including all sorts of concealed carrying systems.

Best wishes in your self-defense efforts,

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:12 - ID#153102)
Mills reports that there will be electricity in Las Vegas in 2000. Were I you, I would plan to be there with the showgirls instead of holed up in snow country. Good free security in Las Vegas, too. And a desert barrier to keep out the ruffians.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:13 - ID#402131)
Mozel-thanks for the information on UPS systems
I sort of thought the generators may have been the problem. I will look into one ASAP. As far as gun cleaning products I use very few. Hoppy's#9 ( sp ) and a little oil. If I am out hunting in cold weather I use no oil at all as the oil slows the action down to the point of not shooting at all. In a rifle I use Sweets 762 bore cleaner-it desolves the copper on the groves and lands. I do a lot of long range shooting
and bullet and rifle and me all have to be 100%. NEVER shoot a firearm with ANY OIL IN THE BARREL. The bullet esp in a rifle will expand the barrel dia. .0001 inchs and the barrel will never shoot as accurate again. I'm talking long range here. Out to 300-400 yards you most likely not be able to shoot the difference

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:14 - ID#290118)
Marshall - are those three of the horsemen?
Anyone - who are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

Nevertheless, there is a fifth horseman. COLD!
January in snowcountry will find a lot of folks dead from "exposure".
Oddly enough, our streetpeople may fare better than most. They are prepared for it or are at least used to it. They may have a lot of experience and wisdom that penthouse and condo dwellers will die for lack thereof.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:29 - ID#290118)
Mozel - the Las Vegas idea is tempting
but I am a die-hard introvert ( who may likely die hard ) .
Like Shlomo
I am counting on winter to protect me and my hoard from the hordes.
Being about 100 miles from Denver normally would put me at considerable risk. But winter in these mountains will seal the passes between here and there. The remaining lower highways will be clogged solid in the canyons out of Colorado Springs. I figure we have until June before many survivors can struggle over the mountains to get here. There will be hardy souls with ATVs etc, who may make it in here. But I am also counting on most folks figuring that fleeing into snowbound, cold, harsh mountains in the middle of winter is stupid and crazy. Even more so, I am hoping that a lot of the bums here will leave before November rather than risk getting stuck here. Once the smoke clears, then I may come down out of the mountains to more hospitable country. But until then, it may be safer up here where crazies haunt the forest and eagles soar the skies.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:32 - ID#153102)
@Rack Any opinion on RemOil ?
You could also charge a battery and run on an inverter.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:37 - ID#285392)
y2k test site that works

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:39 - ID#384350)
FT Bank Erosion Commentary
Dumping the D-Mark when Russia wobbles is a favoured reflex of the foreign exchange market. But last week the fall-out from Russia's turmoil was most evident in Germany's large bank stocks - Deutsche and Dresdner both fell by more than 10 per cent. Managements, of course, claim there is little to be worried about. German bank lending to Russia may be around DM54bn, but a high portion is covered by the state-backed Hermes credit insurance scheme. The banks have also made substantial provisions, and anyway say most of the lending is to high quality borrowers.

Maybe so. But that does not mean they are out of the woods. German banks have been aggressively involved in the syndicated loan market, and there is clearly a risk of large exposures from proprietary trading activities. Disastrous losses will have been suffered by those who erred in thinking that Russia was too big to "fail". To be fair, it may not be the Germans who are at the front of this queue - more likely some of the more aggressive investment banks.

Still, if losses do prove larger than German banks currently admit, the knock-on effect may be serious. If their capital is damaged, there is the risk of an Asian-style credit crunch. And if the Hermes scheme forces the government to absorb large losses, the implications for German public finances may invite some close questioning from the fiscal guardians in Brussels.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:41 - ID#248170)
I failed the RTC test also
To check goto:
Is reliable ?

Who Cares?__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:43 - ID#242328)
Las Vegas

The Vegas idea is bad. Not only have gaming stocks plunged in
the past few weeks, some by 50%, there is a general air of worry
about an additional 20% of hotel rooms coming on-line in the next
two years, and how to fill them.

As for free security, that's only true of the The Strip. Check out

to see just how safe Vegas really is.

Who Cares?__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:49 - ID#242328)
Generator Blowout

UPS != voltage rectifier

In other words, a UPS is not always a rectifier. I would guess that
the generator in question is putting out 120v ac that is poorly
rectified, i.e. is has peaks and lows in the voltage it is delivering that
goes beyond what should be fed into a computer. Delivering
voltage like that to a light-bulb or oven is fine, but not computing

Man, you guys sure are jumpy tonight. : )

See for the latest on kinky presidential
sex. : )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:52 - ID#219363)
Let me see if I can remember. The first one I remember is on a red horse, and there are a red horse, black horse, and white horse behind him. The two on red horses are WAR ( conquest ) and DEATH. I think they have their own seal, I can't remember my Sunday school stuff very well. I know the third one is FAMINE, he has his own seal I think, the third seal. Anyway, he's the one on the black horse and carries a set of scales saying "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barely for a penny". The fourth guy, and the fourth seal, is on a white ( or pale ) horse and his name is PESTILENCE ( also death or plague ) and he's the one who takes out the other third of the population I think. Anyway- I seem to remember that the first two were lumped together as Death or Conquest or War and I know they come before the other two guys.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:52 - ID#284255)
One problem with that site, is that if you fail the RTC test,
But all else is okay, then they say your PC is compliant.
This not true.

Was your RTC okay?

The reason I am pursuing this RTC thing.
Is to bring to the awareness of the many
How we are all greatly at risk.

Many are too complacent about Y2k and its effects.

I may be wrong but I believe up to 90% of all PC's are afflicted with this RTC fault.
Result = CHAOS come Y2k.

This problem is not widely promoted.
But ask the geeks - it is true.

And in the long run, if all these PC's upon which we run our society,
Start "time warping" all at once.

Then we should all start to think a lot more seriously about Gold, Guns and Grub.

It's real and it's out there, coming soon with a deadline.

My main emphasis, on the test.
Is soley to test for RTC compliance - nothing else at all.

Tested your PC for RTC compliance yet???

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:54 - ID#153102)
@Who Cares
Checked; Found no correlation between gaming stocks and showgirls; except Squirrel should stock condoms for Y2K in Las Vegas.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 02:58 - ID#153102)
Failed in Jan, but passed all subsequent dates. Maybe something is wrong with the test prog. Does this mean I shouldn't turn the PC on until Feb.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:02 - ID#284255)
ZDNet is considered one of the premier PC sites on the web.
You could spend a week in their site and still be finding new things.
They do lots of reviews and have lots of shareware.
Worth a good browse.

They give that test a five star rating.
I would recomend them highly.


Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
August 24, 1998

A Tale of Two Cities: Moscow and Caracas Face Different Realities

In a week dominated by advanced weaponry, primitive hideouts, stained
dresses and something about dogs, tails and wagging, it's probably time for
all of us to come back to something resembling reality. Last week, reality
was resident in two cities -- Moscow and Caracas -- playing very different
games in each. In Moscow, reality was showing its brute strength, brushing
aside wishful and sloppy economic thinking. In Caracas, reality was
playing hide-and-seek, as rumors of devaluation triggered massive
dislocations in Latin America's markets. We were driven once again to
reflect on what has, at least for us, become obvious: regional thinking
trumps global thinking every time. While everyone was thinking in terms of
Asia, Russia was playing out its already lost hand, while Venezuela was
having the deck shuffled for it once again, possibly with some cards
missing. Russia's problems are unique and insoluble. Latin America's
problems are also unique but much less dangerous than they appear. As
usual, the world is heading in many different directions at the same time.

* The End of the Westernizers in Russia

Moscow was hit hardest by reality. As we predicted at the time, the IMF
bailout lasted weeks rather than months. We wrote on July 13 that, "The
bright young men governing Russia do passably well at meetings at Harvard
and with Western bankers. But they are, by definition, incapable of coping
with the brutal realities of Russian society. Russia today reminds us
increasingly of Iran in the last days of the Shah of Iran, as Western
bankers conduct negotiations with Westernized technocrats, sublimely
oblivious to the volcano building beneath them. A Russian default is now,
we believe, a given. The timing depends entirely on the IMF, and timing,
to be sure, is the only option left open."

The timing of the Russian default has now been announced. It happened last
week. Russia announced unilaterally that it was imposing a 90-day
moratorium on all foreign debt payments by commercial banks. Because
nothing is going to happen in the next 90 days that will allow them to
resume payments, we are now in a full default period. Interestingly,
Western bankers and journalists let the Russians get away with the claim
that this was not an actual default. The bankers, of course, have a vested
interest in pretending that nothing major happened last week, because they
will be forced to write off the debts if they admit the obvious. Since
bankers' bonuses tend to run on an annual basis, we would expect this
nonsense to be allowed to continue until after the end of the year. Since
journalists who have covered Russia have done an abominable job, they will
be prone not to press the issue either.

Nevertheless, the reality is simple. Russia has stopped paying a huge
segment of its foreign debt and will never repay the entire amount. Unless
the West is prepared to extend substantial new loans far in excess of the
last IMF bailout, Russia will not be repaying any of these loans. One
measure: Russia's stock market is at about 25 percent of its peak. The
economy has also contracted almost that dramatically. Loans extended on
the expectation that Russia will blossom can never be repaid. German banks
in particular are in trouble over these loans. Anyone holding Russian
receivables as well as financial instruments should consider storing them
alongside their Czarist railroad bonds.

In the meantime, Russia's brightest young man was dumped by Boris Yeltsin.
Prime Minister Sergei Kirienko, hand-picked by Yeltsin to take the blame,
left office after about one hundred days on the job, to be replaced by
Viktor Chernomyrdin. The problem with Chernomyrdin, of course, is that he
was the one Yeltsin fired because of his mismanagement of the Russian
economy. Chernomyrdin, who is by no means a bright young man, apparently
extracted a guarantee from Yeltsin, that he would have complete control
over all appointees to his cabinet. In effect, Chernomyrdin, the man most
responsible for the current desperate state of the Russian economy and
someone without any real support in the Duma or in the nation, has just
been handed complete control over the government by Yeltsin.

We always assume that there is a reasonable explanation for most events,
but we must admit that this appointment has us baffled. We see two
possible explanations. First, Yeltsin knows that there is no escape from
financial calamity. By pushing all possible power onto Chernomyrdin's
shoulders, Yeltsin is shifting responsibility to him as well.
Chernomyrdin, not Yeltsin, will be blamed. Because that's not likely to
work, another explanation is that Yeltsin is simply out of ideas. Having
no choice but to fire Kirienko, Yeltsin couldn't find anyone else willing
to be his fall guy except for Chernomyrdin.

It really doesn't matter very much. A coalition of Communists and
nationalists is going to take over Russia and there is almost nothing that
anyone can do to stop it. Yeltsin is completely discredited in Russia,
along with his Western-oriented technocrats. New investment and loans are
useless, because the economy itself has effectively stopped functioning.
Investments are simply dissipated without any hope for returns to the
investors. That means that the post-Yeltsin governments will not have much
hope of attracting new investment or loans. Therefore, they will have
little reason to repay old ones. Yeltsin's half-hearted attempts to
maintain Russia's international financial standing by at least paying back
some debts will be met with a very reasonable counterpoint from the
Communists: why throw good money after bad? Refusing to repay loans and
permit repatriation of investments to Western imperialists who have
devastated Russia's economy not only makes good politics, it also makes
good economic sense. The damage of default having already been done, what
is the advantage of repayment? Well, at least they saved money by not
moving Lenin's body from Red Square. They'll be needing him again.

* Latin America Shaken by Local Concerns

On the other side of the world, the Latin American markets shuddered last
week. Part of the cause was periodic concern that the Asian crisis is
going to spread. Another part had to do with events in Venezuela.
Venezuela's economy is not like the rest of Latin America's. Venezuela is
one of the world's major oil exporters. It is the largest source of oil
imported by the United States. During the first half of 1998, oil prices
crumbled. This created substantial problems for all oil exporters and
particularly for those whose economies were built primarily on oil
production and exports. Venezuela is one of those.

Although Venezuela maintained a fairly conservative projection on oil
prices, compared to some of the wilder estimates maintained by other oil
companies and analysts, even its conservative estimate proved too
optimistic. As a result, the flow of cash into Venezuela was substantially
less than expected and the flow of money into government coffers was also
less. The government has now gone through several rounds of budget
cutting. So has the national oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela ( PDVSA ) .
Declining oil prices have naturally shifted the national financial picture,
putting pressure on the Bolivar. The Bolivar is permitted to float by the
government, with a bracket on either side. However, lack of foreign
reserves may make it impossible for the Venezuelan central bank to move in
to shore up the Bolivar as it moves to its limits. Therefore, the brackets
may not hold. Last week, it began to appear that the Bolivar would have to
be devalued, or more precisely, would fall to a new level without the
national bank being able to intervene.

As news of a possible Venezuelan devaluation spread, speculators began
hitting other Latin American currencies and stock markets, taking a chunk
out of the Mexican, Brazilian and other markets. Panic spread amid fear
that the Asian disease and/or the Russian crisis were spreading to Latin
America. Latin America was being seen as the next domino to fall. In
spite of the fact that U.S. stock markets stabilized in the midst of the
Russian debacle and continued bad news from Asia, the assumption spread
that Latin America took its bearings from Asia or Russia and that,
therefore, another blood bath was imminent.

We have rarely been accused of being optimists, but we do not see the Latin
American case as really analogous to either Russia or Asia. Let's begin
with the trigger, Venezuela. There is really nothing new here. Venezuela
has been in economic crisis since the spring, when it became clear that
attempts to raise oil prices in concert with Mexico and Saudi Arabia had
failed. A liquidity crisis had hit Venezuela at the beginning of August,
through which the Finance Ministry and Central Bank had managed to
navigate. The bad economic news has been discounted by the markets. So
has the bad political news. Hugo Chavez, who tried to stage a coup a few
years ago, is favored to be elected President in next December's elections.
Chavez, who had already tried to make his peace with the international
financial community, if not with the Clinton administration, was not new

Therefore, the pressure on the Bolivar at this time seems strange. The
numbers have not shifted materially. There have been rumors of new
negotiations with Saudi Arabia on another round of oil production cuts
designed to raise prices. Saudi Arabia, heavily focused on Asia, needs
Venezuelan concessions on market share in the United States as much as it
needs production cuts. The Venezuelans are not about to make concessions
like that. We wonder whether the source of speculation on the Bolivar
might not have more to do with Saudi negotiators needing increased leverage
with the Venezuelans than with any current macroeconomic problem. We
concede that this is a conspiratorial view of the situation, but we find it
very difficult to understand why the Bolivar, which survived a much more
serious crisis in early August, should be hammered again with little
genuinely new information available.

* Latin America -- No Asia or Russia

The point is this. Because Venezuela triggered concerns regarding the rest
of Latin America, it is noteworthy that there might be non-economic
explanations for Venezuela's problems, explanations that neither transfer
to the rest of Latin America nor justify the degree of concern. Moreover,
there are fundamental differences between Latin America and Asia. Latin
America is in the early stage of its expansion. Asia is a generation into
its cycle. Asia has been able to generate most of its investment capital
internally. Many of Asia's problems derive from this. Because it has been
generating capital internally, Asia's economy has not been subject to
genuine external scrutiny. Moreover, the economic strategy pursued by Asia
was designed to avoid recessions by surging profitless exports overseas.

As a result of its lax banking regulations and its avoidance of recessions,
Asia failed to impose either regulatory or fiscal disciplines that would
weed out inefficient businesses. The result is the current meltdown.
Latin America's banking system is not nearly as opaque as Asia's. Since it
generates a smaller proportion of its investment capital internally, Latin
America is forced into a higher level of transparency than Asia. Most
importantly, Latin America enjoys ( if that is the word ) a normal business
cycle. It suffers through recessions with some regularity. It does not
have the multi-generational bloat of Asia to deal with.

Latin America differs from Russia as well. The Russian economy is
contracting dramatically. Investments into a contracting economy usually
don't work. Latin America is growing. Its growth rate might be less than
hoped for because of Asian problems and commodity price declines, but it is
still growing, on the whole. Put simply, whatever its problems, Latin
America's economy works. Russia's doesn't. Returns on Latin American
investments may vary in the short run, but unlike Russia, they will not be
total losses.

Having been wrong on Asia and Russia, investors are now going to the other
extreme and seeing Asias and Russias everywhere. We have been arguing here
that what we are seeing is a regionalization of the global system, and that
the stock markets are pointing the way. Last week, while the rest of the
world's markets shuddered, the U.S. markets stabilized. The Latin American
markets should, we believe, be read more in the context of their North
American counterparts than as an adjunct to the Russian and Asian systems.
As the American market moves up, more capital becomes available for
investment in Latin America. Money that used to go to Asia and Russia is
still being produced in the United States and to a lesser extent in Europe.
We expect its target increasingly to be Latin America.

We like to be realists. Our realism has led us to call both the Asian and
Russian meltdowns accurately. But being realists does not mean that we are
perpetual pessimists. We are in the midst of the normal economic process
that has dominated the world ever since European conquerors created a
global economy. Global economy does not mean homogeneous economy. Some
parts of the world rise, some parts fall. Some parts do each more
consistently than others. Asia and Russia are falling. The United States
is rising. We think that Latin America will continue to trail the American
track during the next generation. We don't know what will happen next week
or next month in the Latin American markets. But we do believe that
expectations that Latin America will follow Asia and Russia are as
unrealistic as the assumption that Chernomyrdin can solve Russia's economic

The key is to read the markets regionally rather than globally. The world
is dividing into three great regions ( Asia, North America, Europe ) with
North America being both the most prosperous and secure. Latin America has
the good fortune to be more closely linked to North America and Europe than
to Asia. In particular, close links to the United States will be
invaluable during this next generation. That holds true regardless of who
did what to whose dress in the oval office. The United States will prosper
in spite of its truly bizarre national politics. So will Latin America,
although their ride will be more, shall we say, exhilarating.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:09 - ID#153102)
@What An Outrageous Double Standard Is Applied
"Gingrich said in an interview here that he believed only "a pattern of felonies" and not "a single human mistake" could constitute grounds for an impeachment inquiry."

I thought "a pattern of felonies" meant three stikes, you're out for life in prison as an habitual offender. Hmm. Guess that only applies to civilans, not Law-Enforcement.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:11 - ID#293211)
Last stated position
The world dominion of the globalist government, manifested by THE UNITED NATION and ( oh by the way the US is the UN. ) , has arrived precisely when it was prophesied that it would. The fourth horse, synonymuos with the "fourth beast, dreadful and terrible,"IS the United Nations. Its rider is named DEATH--we know him as The Antichrist.
"And I looked and beheld a PALE Horse: and his name that sat on him was death, and Hell followed with him, and power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with beasts of the earth."
The operative word in seeking to understand the 4th horseman is the word PALE. This term, in the underlying Greek, is
CHLOROS, and it actually signifies the color GREEN. We get our word Chlorophyll ( as in geen leafs ) from this word. ( PS I have not been smoking green grass either )
The green horse Horse signifies the enormous emphasis that will be placed on ecology and environmentalism when the Tribulation begins. Mikhail Gorbachev's Green Cross has arrived concurrently with the Green Crescent of militant Islam, the driving force behind the soon to launched World War III- the Gog/Magog conflict of Ezekiel 38 that describes the judgement of America. In a world dominated by Greenbacks ( $ ) the political party known as the "GREENS" continue to gain power in Europe. The head of the dominant financial arm of the prevailing financil order
, the federal reserve, is named Greenspan--this while Americas youth are capivated by a popular alternate rock band named Green Day. At a recent economic summit, Bill Clinton and Al Gore were "decked out in green suits on a green carpet with green chairs and a green backdrop hold a green sign." In early 1996 when Mr Clinton went to Cario for the terrorism summit, the banner on the platform merged from Black to green on the right --emblematic of the transition to the 4th horseman When one begins to search the records for historic statements that serve to identify the United Nations as the 4th and final horseman, the signs are everywhere....Greenpeace,Grenmail,African Green monkey+aids +pestilence as well as Ebola virus is connected to the green monkey. The green corps in honor of earth day to combat greenhouse, meanwhile the UN has a new grassroots org called The green Brigades. Now to remove any remaining doubt Go to NYC and see the green Horseman of the Apocalypse, outside the UN building in New Yo York The rider is holding a green fig leaf on an actual statue of a horse and rider. It is not an accident that the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are treated as a seperate group with the 7 seals of revelation. This is because they are sychronized with the 4 beast kingdoms of Daniel chapter 4 and they provide a final countdown to the Tribluation itself. To put it another way, in contradistinction to the conventional belief that the 4 horseman are part of the tribulation, actually they comprise the four final historic stages that precede the tribulation period. The green horse is GLOBALISM or ultimately TOTALITARIANISM.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:14 - ID#17077)

August 23, 1998

Gold: A Hedge That's Worth Its Weight in History


A bit over four years ago, an aging German Jew who has seen a lot of trouble gave his niece a wedding gift of three gold coins, along with this admonition: "May you never have to use them."

Let's hope not. Those coins, slumbering in a bank vault, have declined 26 percent in dollar terms. Blue-chip stocks, meanwhile, and, some real estate have more than doubled.

What kind of hedge is that -- a hedge against getting rich? Is gold, the traditional talisman against everything from tyrants to inflation to stock market plunges, losing out?

No, says DOUGLAS M. COHEN, an analyst for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter -- but you could be forgiven for thinking so. "History is full of episodes where people have said gold is dead, and sure enough, it's tended to rally back very strongly," he said. "Gold has thousands of years of history on its side."

What's scary now is that, at about $289 an ounce, gold is not far from its production cost of $250 to $260 an ounce, though it is up from January's 18-year low of $278.

Indeed, gold has quite a roll call of negatives. Start with currencies: Because gold is denominated in American dollars, which are currently strong, it is less affordable than it once was in traditionally gold-hungry markets like India.

But even with demand down, production has been rising in Australia, Canada and South Africa, and there are fears of more gold coming to market, perhaps from the Russian central bank or the International Monetary Fund seeking to raise cash during Russia's fiscal crisis.

What is bad for gold has been even worse for gold shares. Gold has fallen less than 2 percent in 1998, but Morningstar Inc., the Chicago mutual fund publisher, says the average precious-metals fund fell 21.8 percent this year through last Monday and 43.5 percent in the last year.

But Harry Bingham, who manages two gold funds for Van Eck, says gold is as important as ever. "Gold is the only money," he said. "You might say silver is money, but that's only pocket change. And everything else we call money is really a credit instrument."

After the 1929 market crash, when stocks declined 90 percent, gold rose 70 percent, and the shares of gold producers like Homestake Mining catapulted 700 to 800 percent. Talk about a diversifier: "Ten percent in that would have salvaged the whole portfolio," Bingham said.

"We're seeing some paper money just evaporate" today, he said, citing the Indonesian rupiah and the South Korean won. "So I think we're probably fairly close to a turning point in the perception of the value of gold versus paper money."

Daniel B. Leonard, manager of the Invesco Strategic Gold Portfolio fund, said: "If you were in the yen and bought gold a couple of years ago, you're looking pretty good now." The same goes, he says, for people who have to put food on the table with rubles or yuan or Canadian dollars.

In the United States, gold investors typically buy shares in either gold mutual funds or mining companies, rather than the metal itself.

Bill Martin, manager of the American Century Global Gold fund, favors Barrick Resources, which has reduced costs to $150 an ounce at a new mine in Peru and has sold its production forward for $400 an ounce for three years.

Leo Larkin, a metals analyst at Standard & Poor's, mentions Newmont Mining, Placer Dome and Barrick as low-cost producers.

The woman with the wise uncle, meanwhile, reports that those three nuptial coins are staying right where they are.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:24 - ID#39857)
Four Horsemen,? Here is one of them.
Note the way he can spin, and the love he shares.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:26 - ID#293211)
Horsemen reflect final Govt Systems
The first horse ( white ) =British=Colonialism
second horse ( red ) =Russia=communism Third horse Black=Germany=fascism fourth=green horse=Globlalism

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:30 - ID#255151)
Nonlethal Self Defense Site

Here is a good site for info on pepper sprays, stun guns, and good old fashioned cudgels.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:33 - ID#255151)

Self defense site--

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:34 - ID#255151)
Try again!

Try this--

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:37 - ID#284255)
Maybe take a holiday for a month or two?
A balmy tropic isle in Asia perhaps.
Plenty of rice in the paddocks, fruit in the trees and fish in the seas.
And the locals are gratefull for your service.
Some white rum added to a freshly picked coconut. Mmmmmmmmm

Also lots of cheap gold mines for sale. Hmmmmmmmmm.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:39 - ID#219363)
I don't think green is the color of the pale horse. I mean, I see you've got a word in greek for pale that means green, but I'd think green wasn't the color of the horse, seein's how there aren't any green horses. Revelations was translated into Latin, and then to English, and to attempt to take that translation back through Greek and end up with what was intended probably isn't a good idea. Here's the "original" ( after a single translation ) Latin from the Vulgate, maybe take a shot at that.

Revelations 6:8 ( Vulgate )

et ecce equus pallidus et qui sedebat desuper nomen illi Mors et inferus sequebatur eum et data est illi potestas super quattuor partes terrae interficere gladio fame et morte et bestiis terrae

Revelations 6:8 ( King James )

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Of course, I don't really know anything about it.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:42 - ID#255151)
Stun Batons

Got a 200,000 volt stun baton within arms reach whenever I sleep ( when ever that is! ) . Gotta keep the batteries fresh. Also doubles as an awesome club. Even better than a tire iron!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:51 - ID#255151)
Hate Giving Away My Best Secrets...

At work I carry 10% Oleoresin Capsicum spray, in a container disguised as a beeper, attached to my belt. Plus, I carry a 50,000 volt stun gun, also disguised as a beeper.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 03:56 - ID#33773)
Hong Kong
Brokers here are saying that the HK govt are intervening again.

^HSI is up 3.8% right now and its pretty volatile.

The govt claim that they can support the market as much as they want to and that they have 92 billion in reservers. However, as one broker said, the combined funds of the speculators far exceeds this. Now the HK govt are in a corner, they cant pull out now or prices will fall, but they can't maintain this position forever.

HK had a laissez-faire reputation before this, but now its starting to behave more like the rest of the Asian basket cases. I half expect Tung Chee Wa to come on TV soon and call Soros a moron like Mahattir did!

Steve in TO__A : I don't really know how I posted before without a username. Its a good trick eh!



(Mon Aug 24 1998 04:05 - ID#219363)
Transmutation Recipes For Making Gold
Oh, well heck, and here I've been wasting money buying Gold coins - these guys give recipes for making the stuff. Lemme go get the stove warmed up, pick up some dirt, and get some water boiling. I love the Internet.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 04:22 - ID#255151)

Thanks for the informative posts. Hope you become a frequent contributor here. Here is a good article called The Coming Crisis in China. Have to scroll down to the article when you get there. It's a good, short read.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 04:24 - ID#248170)
Thank you for the info on ZDNET.
FYG These were my results.
The first four FAIL ( Testing RTC, BIOS, DOS, Windows date of 01/01/2000 )
All the rest PASS.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 04:25 - ID#255151)

"The Coming Crisis in China" is from the Aug. 23, 1998 London Telegraph newspaper.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 04:58 - ID#33773)
Thanks for the link. Its an interesting read. I have seen exactly the same events unfold in Shenzhen, where I travel to frequently as part of my work.

In Shenzhen there are numerous hulks of unfinished contruction projects that ran out of money. Sometimes there is just the foundatations, sometimes the buliding is finished but the fittings are not put in and the place sits empty. Shenzhen is still a busy place and luckily is not affected by the floods but the projections for office and factory space were wildly optimistic.

After much lurking in this forum, this is my first day of posting. If anyone wants info on Hong Kong or China I would be pleased to help.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:07 - ID#26793)
Morning European currency news and comment

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:12 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
georgew... did you see this article: Clinton knew target was civilian. American tests showed no trace of nerve gas at 'deadly' Sudan plant. The President ordered the attack anyway. By Ed Vulliamy in Washington, Henry McDonald in Belfast , and Shyam Bhatia and Martin Bright Sunday August 23, 1998 President Bill Clinton knew he was bombing a civilian target when he ordered the United States attack on a Sudan chemical plant. Tests ordered by him showed that no nerve gas was on the site and two British professionals who recently worked at the factory said it clearly had no military purpose.

oleman... Buyers of puts are not normally "savvy". They will be someday, of course. The question is, "When?"

oleman... I didnt see any of the Klintonistas agreeing to accept the Sudanese offer to let an impartial group inspect the site and announce to the world who was right. I saw the barefoot civilians walking thru the ruins, but who you gonna believe, Our Great Leader, Big Bubba, or your own lying eyes?: )

georgew... The Guardian interviewed several people who had worked at this plant for several years and they all report that this plant didn't even have the capability to produce nerve gas

oleman... There aint nuthin in the world as politically incorrect as Islam. Liberals fall all over each other to see which one can do the most for people of "color". But if those folks happen to be Moslems, our liberals forget about "affirmative action", "set asides" and all the other good stuff they usually want for black folks. They just kill 'em. Remarkable. A Moslem may actually be more politically incorrect than us redneck Southrons. Maybe.: )

oleman... You gatta carefully parse the words of the Klintonistas. No high-ranking member of the Klinton Administration has claimed that the plant made chemical weapons. The only one who has any credibility left ( besides Rubin ) , Cohen, was sent forth to announce the results of the raid. He said that the factory was "capable of producing 'precursors' for chemical weapons." Well, whoop de doo. So is every chemical plant in the world. Your broom closet is full of 'precursors'.

oleman... Neither has any Klintonista wven hinted at the existence of a single shred of evidence that anyone killed by our bombs had any connection to the embassies destroyed. It's the same as dropping a bomb on Santa Fe to avenge the Murragh bldg. You're about as close as Khartoum is to Nairobi.

georgew... it is so very sad. i hear that there were pictures of huge quantities of empty medicine drop bottles that have been "classified"

oleman... If the market and the general economy hold up, Klinton is untouchable. The Republicans dont have the cajones to impeach, even if he confesses to murder. The Dems wont do anything usless the economy tanks.

twocents... sudan and afghanistan are the home of all the terrorists expelled from all the other places. been going on a long time. the missiles were calling cards. makes them examine their P/L statements a little more closely. war is hell.

twocents... almost took out sudan in 1990 as they had heavy weapons above port sudan when the ships came through. iraq shipped most of their gear there for use by others.

oleman... Wanna feel real manly and virile? take a map of the world and stick a red pin in every country where we've dropped bonbs on civilians. Quite a legacy of hate we're leaving for our grandchildren. I'm no pacifist. I'd fill my front yard full of corpses to protect my home and family. If they knew where the guys are that bombed our embassies, I'd volunteer, even at my age, to go help get em and bring em back. And after they have been duly tried, I'd volunteer for the firing squad. But throwing tomahawk missiles under cover of darkness, when the odds greatly favor killing innocents rather than 'bad guys', aint my idea of what real warriors do.

oleman... We been thru this before, to no avail. I know you'd support Slick if he drops bombs anywhere. Lots of old men with big bellies and big bank accounts here at my club really feel their oats every time the US military bombs some helpless third world sinkhole. Makes em feel real baaaaad.

oleman... Yup, lots o fokes done forgot what war is. Unfortunately most of em are Americans. To most of my neighbors, war consists of high-flying American planes and missiles screaming thru the nite toward some helpless third-world target. As more and more Moslem countries get nukes and the ability to deliver them, and our "leaders" refuse to build an ABM system, it may just come home to roost in a few years.

georgew... what ever happened to our great CIA? why can't a country that can produce a Tomahawk missle that can fly into anyone's bedroom window at some ungodly speed, why can't that country take out one guy? --

twocents... sudan is probably a better setup than arkansas was when ole rockefeller got there. running a third world place whether in the US or africa is a pretty good scam.

mitstop1... all i knows is that 600 lemon heads were supposed to be there. Didn't get that many bodies in Afghan. If Intelligence was supposed to be 'that' good, the problem musta been aiming, target choice, or lying. Misleading is already acceptable and it worked Monday, what the hell- let's try it Thursday: )

oleman... You mean the WWII generation, which gets all puffed up at certain times of the year because it only took em 4 years, in combination with Russia, Britain, Canad, Aust ralia, and almost all the rest of the industrialized world, to whip a country about the size of California. Gimme a break.

oleman... If Klinton wants to blow up ALL of Africa and the Middle East, its no problem to me. I just dont like to be told that they are doing it for Me. If he'd build us a missile defense, I feel sure the Florida National Guard could handle my protection.

oleman... The bottom is soft, the trend is down, the internals are a shambles, and I'm LONG. Bettr sleep on it. bye. ~poof~

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:17 - ID#284255)
GPS - Satellite systems
There have been a number of postings to this newsgroup this year concerning
the Global Positioning System ( GPS ) satellite network. It suffers from a
date glitch which is, strictly speaking, not a year 2000 one. One of Cory
Hamasaki's Washington D.C. Year 2000 Weather Reports had an informative
write-up about it earlier.

I thought about this last week after the tomahawk cruise missile
attacks--this weapon system now uses GPS for guidance.
I had the same thoughts. But the Tomahawk cruise missile and even the August
rollover are the least of the problems. The GPS also has a very big Y2K
problem. The state of the GPS was the single thing that convinced me that
the society was in denial about Y2K, and that the absurd ( until that point
for me ) concerns about Doomsday were stunningly real. Not only will many
older GPS receivers stop working in August, the system is very likely to go
down on 2000/01/01.

The implications of this alone for the civilian global economy are stunning.
The 911 system depends on GPS, and emergency services depend on 911 in most
medium size and larger cities. ( I don't think those services have kept their
own dispatching system just in case, do you? ) Plus shipping, transportation,
fishing, forestry, mining, tunneling... All the banks and the financial
markets draw their time signal from the clock on one of the GPS satellites
( supposedly the second most accurate clock in existence ) .

The URL contains the complete article from DOD Computing. I've [bracketed]
stuff I lifted from the article. First, the good news from management. The
happy face:

["The most significant system today that is not [year 2000] compliant is
GPS, which would have more impact than anything else," Emmett Paige Jr.,
assistant secretary of Defense for command, control, communications and
intelligence, recently told the House Government Reform and Oversight
Subcommittee on Government Management, Information and Technology. "Yet I
have no doubt that GPS will be ready along with all the other weapon systems
and command and control systems in the Department of Defense."]

Mr. Paige's may not have doubts, but others within DOD certainly do. And
there isn't any doubt about the system's importance either:

[Of the Defense Department's myriad systems, the Global Positioning System
is most vulnerable to malfunction and most likely to suffer devastating
consequences due to year 2000 code problems, DOD officials have concluded.

"People are depending on this system far beyond anybody's expectations,"
said Lt. Col. Rick Reaser, chief engineer for the Navstar GPS Joint Program
Office at Los Angeles Air Force Base, Calif. "People's lives depend on this
system, and we take that very seriously."]

There are several GPS systems that present little or no problems, but GPS
has two Y2K problems. The first is in something called the Mission Operation
Support Center or MOSC:

[The MOSC date code problem lies in its underlying commercial products. So
DOD will replace MOSC with the Integrated Mission Operation Support Center
( IMOSC ) , which it expects to finish in December 1999. But GPS JPO is working
to push the completion date up at least six months to June 1999. The IMOSC
project is part of a $1.3 billion GPS Block IIF satellite contract that DOD
awarded to Boeing Co. last April.]

Okay, if I gulp really hard, maybe this is reasonable. I don't know how big
this system is, but December 1999 seems to be shaving it pretty close. I
guess they are working to push the deadline up, but given an April, 1998
contract award date...

The other, bigger, problem is in the ground control segment:

[The GPS ground control segment consists of six monitor stations, four
ground antennas and a master control station. The software needing date code
fixes generates the uplink code to the satellites. It was written in the
1970s and uses only two-digit date fields.

The original plan was to replace the old code as part of a modernization of
the ground control segment, or Architecture Evolutionary Plan ( AEP ) . But
schedule delays have pushed AEP's operational beginning to mid-2000.

"It looks like that schedule is slipping out," Reaser said. "The replacement
system may or may not be there in time for year 2000 rollover. So what we're
going to do is upgrade the current system to be Y2K-tolerant as sort of the
backup plan which may become our primary plan."]

Now *that* sounds like a big system and that sounds pessimistic. Y2K
tolerant as sort of a backup which may become primary? In a system that by
itself will throw industry into chaos? Y2K ain't a huge problem? But does
management see it the same way as the chief engineer on the project? Paige
has no doubt that GPS will be ready.

Power stations also use the GPS time clock too.
This is not good news.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:18 - ID#26793)
BOJ buying Commercial Paper directly from issuers; banks being bypassed.

Cage Rattler
(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:18 - ID#33184)
My IBM Thinkpad 760ED failed the RTC test - can't test the Dell's because they are running NT.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:28 - ID#26793)
Japan will use taxpayer money to support LTCB-Sumitomo bank merger.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:34 - ID#26793)
Unexploded cruise missle found in Pakistan

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:41 - ID#26793)
More Asian gloom than you can shake a stick at.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 05:47 - ID#26793)
Japanese economy is the "Titanic" and can take the rest of the world down with it.

John Disney__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:04 - ID#24135)
to all
Ive been unable to reach drudge
report .. could a few cruise
missiles have gone his way ??

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:08 - ID#252391)
Columbo in HK WELCOME
Welcome to our little family, Columbo. We all will enjoy your perspective. My question tonight is why are the HK officals intervening agian, today. They had stemmed the decline the other day, incurring quite a bit of wrath in the process, but being able to justify holding off the decline from getting out of control. Why be buying more, now. How will they ever sell??

Not much talk of gold over there, you say??

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:13 - ID#39857)
Its working ok this end.
Now with a ld of Newt and headlines about Impeachment only if
he is a serial wand polisher.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:16 - ID#426220)
Last Night the Sun Set On Japan

The Nikkei plunged 310 points -closing at 14988. The stock rout in Tokyo
swept the rest of Asian stock markets before it. LITERALLY a sea of red ink - only China, Hong Kong and India made gains. Nearly all Europe was equally dressed in red.

Analyst John Kutyn advised us nearly a year ago of the then looming Asian Crisis. His monthly predictions of deterioration based upon insightful analysis was uncannily and grimly accurate. His current report reviews what has occurred to date and why and most importantly what is to come?

Mr. Kutyn's conclusions are startling and very thought-provoking. It's not a pleasant picture the Asian Contagion will indeed continue and will relentlessly crash on to western shores.

An additional interesting ramification envisioned by Kutyn is:
"The control of the treasuries of Europe through the European Central
Bank will be the key element in collapsing the U.S. dollar and driving up
the price of gold."

A must read at the following URL - delete the extra letters "en" in the
word "golden" before posting it to the Internet:

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:16 - ID#384350)
Bank of Japan, covertly bailing out Big Bizness
BOJ said the central bank would provide ample funds to financial markets, including CONDUCTING LARGE COMMERCIAL PAPER ( CP ) BUYING OPERATIONS, to help ease the nation's credit crunch.

Which means the Central Bank is in effect going to loan corporate Japan as much money as it deems necessary to try to keep this bubble afloat. The Post Office ( Govt Institution ) has been buying Shares in Nikkei companies. Hong Kong which used to be a formidable bastion of Capitalism, now has its govt buying futures and stocks in the Hang Seng, and now we have the BOJ "printing" money to give to nippon corporations. Isn't this illegal?

I must say that it is immoral and smacks of Socialism. It makes me believe that the Cold War isn't over and that the Soviets are winning.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:19 - ID#252391)
To John Disney
Drudge is probably covered with too much dirt. What's going on over there in Africa - lets not let the situation get to crazy or AMerican analyists will never recommend a So African gold stock./ What's you earning projection for HGMCY?

Have a good day.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:20 - ID#31876)
@John Disney
About the Drudge Report, there is little problem with access
at this time of day/night on our side of the world. Now,
when Americans are on their lunch period, it usually bogs
down here.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:22 - ID#255151)
John Disney

Try this--

Cage Rattler
(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:22 - ID#33184)
Johannesburg Stock Exchange plunging again. Already down 3.33% for the day. Gold index holding up well with no movement! R150 has hit 18.1% - interest rates going up.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:27 - ID#317193)
sharefin...RTc test for Jan. failed , pass on everything else.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:36 - ID#255151)
Big Scandal Brewing?

"Latingate" could be big trouble for Clinton

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:40 - ID#365216)
Senator Bennett (Chairman of Senate Y2K committee) 7/16/98 speech regarding Y2K

* * * * * * * * *


1:01 P.M. EDT


MR. HARBRECHT: Good afternoon, and welcome to the National
Press Club. This is our 90th anniversary year. . . .

Our speaker today, Senator Bob Bennett, sees himself as the Paul
Revere of the information age. As chairman of the new Senate
Special Committee on the Year 2000, he is one of the most vocal
politicians today, sounding the warning on a looming problem, the
so-called "millennium bug." . . .

SEN. BENNETT: Thank you very much. . . .

We have tried to be the Paul Revere. But I tell people we're not yet
Chicken Little. The British are, indeed, coming. This is a serious
problem, and one that cannot be minimized. But I'm not yet ready to
say that the sky is falling, as some people do on the web sites. And
so we've tried to strike the balance between Paul Revere and
Chicken Little. . . .

And just as the concept of interchangeable parts transformed the
world in the Industrial Revolution, the concept of digital code
transformed the world in the Information Revolution. And we are
living through that revolution in ways that future historians will look
back on and comment about. But it has happened to us gradually
enough that we don't really understand the incredible impact of that
little notion that a switch can be either on or off, that a punch in an
IBM card can either be in or out, or that a pit on a laser disk can be
burned to either be there or not, only a micron wide so that on a disk
this size, you can put the entire Encyclopedia Britannica and read it
by virtue of digital code.

Enormously significant things have happened as a result of that
revolution. We have now eliminated whole portions of the hierarchy
of corporate organizations. Middle management is pretty well gone.
Where did it go? It was replaced by computer technology, because
the purpose of middle management was to manage information.
Now, an individual on the factory floor can call up on a screen more
information than he could have gotten from acres and acres of
Harvard MBAs in the middle management prior to the invention of
the computer and digital code.

And it has become ubiquitous this digital code. It is everywhere we
look. One of the things that has happened -- and I am going to focus
on this for just a minute out of my business background, to help you
understand how difficult the Y2K challenge is -- is that we have
changed manufacturing fundamentally, and not just by robotics and all
of the things you think of in terms of computers.

Go back 25 years ago to General Motors, and they would have
warehouses filled with steel and aluminum and glass and rubber and
chrome and all the other things necessary to produce a car. And
usually there would be about 90 days . . . in these warehouses.

Along came digital code. Toyota pioneered Edward Deming's idea of
"just in time" inventory. The warehouse holding the spare parts or the
component parts of a Toyota consisted of the railroad car in which
those parts arrived at the plant. And the railroad car pulls up to the
side of the plant, they open the doors and start off-loading the parts
directly onto the assembly line until the car is empty, and it is then
pulled away and another car pulled up. You can imagine the savings
-- money, time, effort, capital, everything else -- that has occurred
because of "just in time" inventory. But you must understand that "just
in time" inventory cannot work without computers. You cannot have
enough middle managers with Harvard MBAs figuring it out to make
it work if you don't have computers. . . .

We have made people more productive, we have smoothed out the
curves of the business cycle, and we have done it all with computers.
We are reaping the benefits, whether the Republicans claim credit or
the Democrats claim credit, we are reaping the benefits in the
economy of the introduction of the Information Age, and it is
wonderful. And as I say, all of the incumbent politicians are taking
credit for it, even though none of them deserve it.

That's the good news. The bad news is that that flaw that got put into
the system in terms of two digits for a date instead of four, that used
to be just part of a single software program and then several software
programs and something that would get taken care of later, has
become over the last 25 years, absolutely pervasive, and the flaw is

Yes, it's in computer programs, software programs; it's also
imbedded into those microcomputers that we call chips that are
imbedded into machine tools, supertankers, valves on pipelines that
control natural gas and, yes -- get your attention -- probably in the
presses that print your magazines and newspapers. And the estimates
we get on our committee are that between 2 ( percent ) and possibly 5
percent of those chips will fail. And you don't know which 2
( percent ) to 5 percent they are, and you don't know where they are.

But if all of a sudden the pipeline that is bringing natural gas to the
generating plant that is creating the electricity that's lighting these lights
shuts down because an imbedded chip in one of the valves fails, it
isn't just a valve in a pipeline that has failed, the whole power grid is
now at risk. And if enough of them fail in enough key places, you
don't have any power.

Or, if enough of them fail in enough water purification plants, you
don't have any water. Or, if enough of them fail in enough medical
devices in an ICU in a major hospital, some people will die. I'm
beginning to sound a little like Chicken Little, but I want you to know
these are very real possibilities. And the only reason I am not
Chicken Little yet is that we have 17 months in which to get from
here to there.

Now, the number-one problem we face is denial.

People say, "No, it can't possibly happen." . . .

I believe we're going to win; that is I think that civilization as we
know it is not going to come to an end. It's a possibility. Possibility, if
Y2K were this weekend instead of 76 weekends from now, it would.
But we have 76 weeks in which to try to get this under control. But
we are, in a sense, at war against this problem. And you would not
have said in the Second World War, "Oh, because the president
assures us we're going to eventually prevail, we do not need to cover
Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge, or any of
the rest of it."

And so my plea to you here in the Press Club is: Do not ignore this
story just because someone is reassuring you that it's going to work
out all right. There are all kinds of stories out there that need to be
covered and, most importantly, need to be exposed. . . .

We have reached the point where we cannot solve the whole
problem. That is very clear. As a nation, as a government, we cannot
get this problem solved. So what we have to do is start making
priority choices.

To go back to the medical term, we have to do triage and say, "We
will allow these systems to die, because these systems are absolutely
critical for us to survive." . . .

MR. HARBRECHT: If we have 17 months to fix the problem, what
is the most likely scenario? We've heard the doom and gloom.
What's the most likely scenario?

SEN. BENNETT: There is no single likely scenario. Let me break it
down as my current best guess with the immediate, absolute and
overwhelming caveat that I reserve the right to change my mind on
every one of these assessments within 24 hours. ( Laughter. )

I believe the power grid will work. I expect we will have brownouts
and regional blackouts, and in some areas of the country there will be
power failures. But the power grid as a whole will not go down. . . .

I believe the financial system will work. We're having our first test of
the security system. End to end, the entire system is starting in
August. They had the first phase of that yesterday, and it went fairly
well. I think you will still be able to trade stocks on the New York
Stock Exchange. I wouldn't want to trade stocks on the Nikkei in
Tokyo, but I think the security system will probably work. I think the
banking system will work. I think there are individual banks that will
probably go bankrupt. . . .

I think water will be available in most municipalities, but I am
convinced there are some where the water system will break down.
And there could be serious, serious difficulty in those communities.

I am very concerned about the health care system. There are health
care entities that may very well go bankrupt because they cannot get
reimbursement from Medicare and Medicaid. That is, in my view,
one of the number one issues that Koskinen faces in trying to get
HCFA so that it can process Medicare and Medicare claims --
Medicaid claims.

There are medical machines that will fail in ICU units. There are
hospitals that are far enough away from other hospitals that they have
no backup, and if they have a failure in some of their machines or in
some of their supplies, there will be people who will be affected by
that in terms of patient care -- very concerned about the health care

I'm concerned about counties. What's going to happen to the social
fabric in this country if a county in a large, populous area cannot
deliver welfare checks? What kind of riots might occur? On that, I
can't give you any predictions, but that's an area where I have great

Do I think the Defense Department will fall apart? No. But I am glad
we're not engaged in a major war when this hits, because the Defense
Department will have serious challenges. I think the satellites will
work, but I'm not sure about all of the weapons systems here on the

The phone system, I think, will work. But I wouldn't guarantee that
you could get a dial tone in Taiwan. So that if you have a supplier in a
foreign country that is not Y2K-compliant, you'd better start looking
around for alternatives and drafting some contingency plans.

I think the air traffic control system will work, but I expect we will
probably be rationing flights. I don't think it will work at the same
level that it currently is. And if you're in the leisure hotel business,
that's not good news.

Is that enough of a crystal ball for you? ( Laughter. ) . . .

MR. HARBRECHT: The Social Security system -- I wonder if you
could address that in a little more detail. How far along is the Social
Security system in adjusting to the year 2000 problem?

SEN. BENNETT: I tell people I have a very easy and direct way to
solve the Y2K problem; it is start in 1994. And the Social Security
system did. Of all of the government agencies, I think the Social
Security system is in the best shape and will be in a position to see to
it that Social Security checks will go out -- if the banks are there to
receive them. ( Scattered laughter. ) No, as I say, I think the banking
system will be all right. Social Security has started early. They have
been very systematic and thorough in the way they've gone about it.

The government agencies that concern me the most -- and here I am
mirroring the comment of John Koskinen, so this isn't entirely original
with me -- IRS; serious, serious troubles at IRS. And before you
rejoice -- ( laughter ) -- I'll tell you that applies to your refund as well
as your return. . . .

In other words, I'm not yet ready to say to the average American,
"head for the hills," but I'd say pay attention to those things that are
vulnerable that are in your life and try to get a contingency plan for
them and try to back them up in hard copy.

And finally, I don't think I would book a vacation on an airplane to a
foreign country on New Year's Eve. . . .

MR. HARBRECHT: Could you say something, please, about FEMA
-- the Federal Emergency Management Administration -- and what is
-- what it is or is not doing to prepare for emergencies and

SEN. BENNETT: Well, the only reason I hesitate is that I'm trying
not to single out any one agency for anything more than general
comments. But our experience, or at least that of the staff of the
committee talking to people at FEMA, has been, shall we say, less
than reassuring. And I will go no farther, except to say that I will raise
with John Koskinen, whose responsibility it is to work on each
agency, the fact that we have not found FEMA to be either as
understanding of the problem or as forthcoming as they need to be
with information.

Their attitude, at least in the first visit, was: "Well, we're the
emergency agency. We'll sit back and let the emergency take place,
and then we'll step in to help out." And that doesn't cut it. No, FEMA
is one agency that's on our list to be checked. . . .

MR. HARBRECHT: Sir, a final question today from a veteran
journalist. Why don't we just forget about all this computer nonsense
and go back to using typewriters? Life was simpler in the old days.
Your comment, please?

SEN. BENNETT: Well, first you're going to have to find one!
( Laughter. )

But I go back to my statement when I gave you that somewhat
convoluted description of how the economy has changed in the
information age, we can't go back to typewriters. We can't go back
to 25 years ago. We

can't just forget about this problem because 25 years ago doesn't

Somebody asked it in a different context, but the same question:
"Why are we worried about the fact that the switches that control the
rail traffic in this country are all computerized? Let's go back to
somebody standing there and throwing the switch in advance of the
train." There are no switches to throw. All of the manual switches
have been replaced.

You go back to your typewriter -- the old city room is gone, it's all
computerized now, and the old Linotype machine is gone. And
what's on your screen in the city room is connected to the typesetting
computerized system, and you can't bring the Linotype machine
back; it only exists in a museum somewhere, and there are not
enough museums to handle all the newspapers that would need them,
if we were to go back to those days.

We cannot go back because the infrastructure that undergirded our
entire society 25 years ago has been dismantled. It is gone. The skills
are gone, the people are gone, the equipment is gone. Like or not,
we have no choice in this situation but to plow forward and, one way
or the other, make it work. . . .

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:50 - ID#31876)
John Crudele - "Average Americans Hold Key to Market's Future" (Thanks to Fiend)

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:53 - ID#346404)
New York Times Article this AM

Gold: A Hedge That's Worth Its Weight in History


A bit over four years ago, an aging German Jew who has seen a lot of trouble gave his niece a wedding gift of three gold coins, along with this admonition: "May you never have to use them."

Let's hope not. Those coins, slumbering in a bank vault, have declined 26 percent in dollar terms. Blue-chip stocks, meanwhile, and, some real estate have more than doubled.

What kind of hedge is that -- a hedge against getting rich? Is gold, the traditional talisman against everything from tyrants to inflation to stock market plunges, losing out?

No, says Douglas M. Cohen, an analyst for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter -- but you could be forgiven for thinking so. "History is full of episodes where people have said gold is dead, and sure enough, it's tended to rally back very strongly," he said. "Gold has thousands of years of history on its side."

What's scary now is that, at about $289 an ounce, gold is not far from its production cost of $250 to $260 an ounce, though it is up from January's 18-year low of $278.

Indeed, gold has quite a roll call of negatives. Start with currencies: Because gold is denominated in American dollars, which are currently strong, it is less affordable than it once was in traditionally gold-hungry markets like India.

But even with demand down, production has been rising in Australia, Canada and South Africa, and there are fears of more gold coming to market, perhaps from the Russian central bank or the International Monetary Fund seeking to raise cash during Russia's fiscal crisis.

What is bad for gold has been even worse for gold shares. Gold has fallen less than 2 percent in 1998, but Morningstar Inc., the Chicago mutual fund publisher, says the average precious-metals fund fell 21.8 percent this year through last Monday and 43.5 percent in the last year.

But Harry Bingham, who manages two gold funds for Van Eck, says gold is as important as ever. "Gold is the only money," he said. "You might say silver is money, but that's only pocket change. And everything else we call money is really a credit instrument."

After the 1929 market crash, when stocks declined 90 percent, gold rose 70 percent, and the shares of gold producers like Homestake Mining catapulted 700 to 800 percent. Talk about a diversifier: "Ten percent in that would have salvaged the whole portfolio," Bingham said.

"We're seeing some paper money just evaporate" today, he said, citing the Indonesian rupiah and the South Korean won. "So I think we're probably fairly close to a turning point in the perception of the value of gold versus paper money."

Daniel B. Leonard, manager of the Invesco Strategic Gold Portfolio fund, said: "If you were in the yen and bought gold a couple of years ago, you're looking pretty good now." The same goes, he says, for people who have to put food on the table with rubles or yuan or Canadian dollars.

In the United States, gold investors typically buy shares in either gold mutual funds or mining companies, rather than the metal itself.

Bill Martin, manager of the American Century Global Gold fund, favors Barrick Resources, which has reduced costs to $150 an ounce at a new mine in Peru and has sold its production forward for $400 an ounce for three years.

Leo Larkin, a metals analyst at Standard & Poor's, mentions Newmont Mining, Placer Dome and Barrick as low-cost producers.

The woman with the wise uncle, meanwhile, reports that those three nuptial coins are staying right where they are.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 06:53 - ID#248180)
Probs in Access of Various Web Sites
John Disney & All: I have experienced "cannot access server" to numerous sites including "Drudge", J Orlin Grabbe amd a few others for the past 24 hours.
Cheers JR

(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:39 - ID#119358)
compliant. g'dayO!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:41 - ID#35571)
I retested one of the machines that had passed our tests previously except using the test from the site you suggested.

It passed all test except the first RTC test ( for 01/01/2000 ) . I then reran our tests and they still passed.

I then rebooted the machine in DOS, set the real time clock to 31 Dec 1999 and the time to couple of minutes before midnight and waited. It clicked over OK. I let it run until five minutes had elapsed on my stop
watch and checked the clock. Everything agreed with my watch.

I then rebooted the machine in DOS again. The clock still agreed with my stop watch.

I have some doubts about the RTC test from that site. Perhaps it has a Y2K problem.

John Disney__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:41 - ID#24135)
Drudge ..


(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:44 - ID#412286)
If you look around the world today all the problems relate to one thing..THE DOLLAR. Outside of our big military there is nothing different about the dollar than other sovereign currencies. Economic growth for the world can only resume once the dollar standard has been trashed. This will happen soon and suddenly. It is the dollar which is in most oversupply. Ultimately this system will result in a wasve of defaults that will bring IT down. Glenn, I wouldnt be too short gold now as the rally will come suddenly and viciously. Further, the Merrill Lynch touts in London look a little nervous.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:47 - ID#401460)

Panama US Bases and Lippo, WOW! What is this all about?

"On August 7, Panama gave former Clinton White House Chief of Staff Mac McLarty a medal. Under MacLarty, the Panama Canal physical plant has been falling apart, and 7 U.S. companies were defrauded. Panama was rightfully blacklisted by the U.S. Government."

"After James Carville arrived in Panama, the
Communist Chinese and the Lippo Group took control of US bases, US ports and the functions of the Panama Canal."


(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:48 - ID#412286)
John Disney
Ist iit pozzible for zee Baron August Von Finck to be wronk about das gelt und der Homestake minin'? Sprechen sie bitte, danke schoen.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:49 - ID#426220)
In ongoing struggle, bulls losing grip? Bonds to tank?

After falling nearly 1,000 points from its all-time highs, the
Dow Jones Industrial Average is slowly maturing in its incipient
bear market. In doing so, it, along with the S&P 500, joins the
slightly more mature-but more virulent-bear market being
experienced by small-cap stocks as represented Russell 2000
and other indices.

Analyst Droke observes "We offer no downside target for the upcoming intermediate wave three decline except to reiterate our Gann support levels at the following areas: 8600 ( where we are presently ) , 8560, 8350, 8150, 7800, 7700."

In contrast to conventional wisdom, Droke forsees weakness in the bond market. "We don't normally discuss bonds here, but feel it is necessary to provide warning to investors. Although most investment advisors, even the more sensible ones that we admire, are heavily touting bonds as a safe, can't-miss investment vehicle, our technical analysis of the 30-year U.S. T-bond shows a bullish descending wedge pattern, which portends higher yields and therefore lower bond prices in the weeks/months ahead."

See his august 24th report at the following URL. It will be necessary to delete the extra letters "en" of the word "golden" before pasting the URL to the Internet:

(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:51 - ID#411259)
..... Why Too Kay .....

Sharefin -

Ran the Y2K test. I failed 1/1/2000 but passed all later dates, such as 2/9/2001.

Why is this?


Sorry about the Salty the other night. On rereading your post, I see how I made that mistake. Also, also, I am very pleased you have already assembled ANOTHERs archives. Lets me off the hook for the promise I made to do the same. Less work for me is always a good thing. Please continue your Y2K efforts and bring us the info. Readers of this site have an edge on the world, thanks, in large part, to your efforts. We know there is a problem, we know it is serious, and we know that too many others pooh pooh the whole thingie. We know how to protect some of what we have, and we still have time to do it. This makes us the blessed ones. Maybe not all here will survive the Millennium changeover, but it will not be for lack of forewarning.

Indeedy O so


(Mon Aug 24 1998 07:53 - ID#45173)
Welcome. How much longer do you guess the Chinese can hold on before they have to devalue their currency?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:04 - ID#411440)
@ ROR: re the USD, I have two concerns. When the great
switch over to the EURO does occur, the USD will collapse, and
POG will explode but if one has positions in gold mining equities,
my fear is:

1. Gold is recognized as money ( finally ) , and governments move
to nationalize the means of production. Shareholders who
have been trashed by the market, now get further trashed
by the government.

2. The above does not happen, but the appreciation of gold shares
does not keep pace with the inflation generated by the decline
of the USD. When you sell out, you get paid in nickels.

3. ?

To add insult to injury, I don't think we get to find out which of
the three it will be until Jan 1999. ONE MONTH LEASE RATES FOR

Please note that many CBs will not lease at under 1%, but many
European CBs will. I wonder how low they will drop the lease rates
in order to facilitate the gold carry. I have never even heard of
a .5% lease rate! These are interesting times. The great question
is can the CBs keep the lid on POG until 1999? This is the question
which has kept me from unloading my pm holdings.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:04 - ID#411259)
..... No Marine Layer Today .....

The desert heat has failed to drag the low coastal overcast from the sea these last few days. Result: I can see Orion low in the sky in the pre dawn hours. This is cool. Good luck to those in the Carolinas. A cat III hurricane is a serious biz indeedy.

It is.


They found an unexploded cruise missile in Afghanistan. Thats one way to get hold of advanced technology, yes? I think LGB shipped it there in the trunk of his car. I told you all to watch out for him.

I did.

Flash Gordon__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:06 - ID#284316)
Y2K: now I'm really f*%^$d off.

Having failed an RTC test, I tried to call the HP suppliers in order to sort this out. I was diverted twice and ended up on a premium charge 50 pence/min number which charged me for 15 minutes ( intermitent voice of "sorry, all our lines are busy. Please hold on and your call etcetcetc ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am dying to get this sorted out and noone is there to help. What will it be like in the autumn of 1999?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:12 - ID#39862)
ROR (WORLD PROBLEM) .............

SPOT ON...........

A wee bit of "background" reading:

We learn nothing from history, except we learn nothing from history !

Then again, we keep on making history because we don't learn from it !

Tick toc.......

Och aye..........

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:16 - ID#39862)
rhody (@ ROR: re the USD, I have two concerns. When the great)

yes, Governments will have a field day... TAX, TAX, TAX....

Oh, Governments love TAX......

Gold is rare, but IF you know how, you can find it.......

Anyone want to buy a gold mine ??!!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:22 - ID#45173)
The plane's still at the gate. The pilots are drinking coffee and reading the weekend analysis of last week's market events, reading that all Asian markets dropped last night, again, except those supported by government intervention, itself not a confidence-building move.

But that's old bad news. The new bad news is that Taiwan, the shining star amid the Asian economic darkness, lost it last night. They experienced panic selling:

Global angst pulls Taiwan stocks to '98 low

TAIPEI, Aug 24 ( Reuters ) - Taiwan's share index fell through
crucial support at 7,000 points to close at 1998 low on Monday
as investors ran for cash amid fears over escalating financial
woes around the world, brokers said.

* Close: down 255.62 points/3.54 percent at 6,957.75

* Turnover: slow at T$77.19 billion vs T$58.34 billion

* Index opened sharply lower, taking a beating from recent
sharp falls in global markets, including Tokyo's opening drop.

* Losses extended and hit fresh 1998 lows on panicky
selling that focused on the trend-setting electronics shares.

* Electronics tumbled 5.22 percent, reflecting pessimism
over the sector's outlook after many local firms rolled back
their 1998 profit forecasts.

Brokers said tumbling share prices in America, Europe, and
Asia triggered waves of nervous selling in the hypersensitive
Taiwan market and that efforts by government-related funds to
brake the decline showed little impact.

"It's a domino effect. Everyday we open our eyes and see
stocks are falling everywhere. It seems logical ( to some
investors ) to dump everything you have," HSBC Securities
Taiwan's research manager Alex Chen.

"With stocks tumbling everywhere, sentiment is very
pessimistic. It is like a vicious circle and investors are
running for cash," Chen said.

Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.

So, we might have a rougher flight this morning than I thought. I was figuring on a slowdown in the rate of bad news and perhaps a DOW rally. But now I don't think so.


(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:23 - ID#39862)
Vronsky, you have a point.......

"Funny" old term.........emerging markets...... nothing to do with us !

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:24 - ID#35571)
Why Too Kay
It should be pointed out that there is a vested interest in devising "tests" to give Y2K compliance failure even where there is no problem. For one thing it sells PC's and for another it sells "solutions" to the reported problem by the purveyors of the solution.

In coming months we shall see more and more hype from people intending to make a buck or two from Y2K.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:27 - ID#350194)
Gold and Guns and Y2K
Good Morning All! After reviewing this mornings lessons in self-defense, guns and survival in the hinterlands I think that this morning's time slot from 12:00 to 6:00 should be bookmarked for future reference so that we don't have to go over that same ground consistently from now til 01/01/00. While I agree with Mr. Ford ( quoted below ) , and appreciate everyone's mutual self help efforts, I think its now time to get back a little more on topic around here. Alternately we could set aside that same time slot on a weekly basis for the survivalist forum discussion rather than going over the same ground on an hourly basis.
"Getting ready is the secret of success."
---Henry Ford

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:38 - ID#344236)
coming out!
Well, I've finally done it. After lurking/posting for the past eighteen months or so I have invested in my first coin, a A$15 face value Australian Gold Nugget 1/10th oz coin for $50 and have ordered one per week until the curtain comes down. Many thanks to all of those who have provided invaluable information. I can now honestly say that I'm part of the family. GO GOLD....................

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:38 - ID#39862)
Did Slick write ...........

....the script of "Wag the Dog"........

Or, is he "doing" a Totsie, and appearing as Dustin Hoffman ?

What ever next will they come up with ????

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:41 - ID#242325)
Shepler expecting new lows soon after probable dead cat bounce. My take is that a sustainable rally is out of the question until the big cap darlings get hit hard. And by hard I mean considerably below 8000 on the Dow

for 8/24/98

Current Position: Rydex Ursa fund since 8/12/98
Purchase NAV: 10.24 ( split adjusted )
Current NAV as of 8/21/98 close: 10.27

Return on current trade: 0.29%

Shepler Market Timer Returns since 4/8/98 inception: 11.16%
Buy and Hold S&P 500 Index Returns since 4/8/98: -1.86%

Market Commentary:

Extremely volatile choppy trade continues to be the defining
characteristic for the market since the 8/5 low. 1-2 day dead-cat bounce
rallies have been interspersed with re-tests of the 1050 SPX, 8300 Dow
area. Bulls have continued to come to the rescue of the market when
faced with a breach of the 200 day moving average at 1054 SPX, and 8521
Dow. We feel however that it is only a short matter of time before these
support levels fail, ushering a new round of very heavy selling. Many
bears that have been on the sidelines are waiting patiently for a strong
rally to get short into, while many bulls have also been waiting for a
strong rally to unload longs into. We have stated since the July top
that we doubted that either group would get what they were waiting for,
and that the downturn may just leave them all behind. Because of this we
have prefered the strategy of initiating our short position early, and
maintaining it, all the while casting a skeptical eye towards feeble
recovery attempts accompanied by non-confirming weak internals. To be
sure, bulls are not likely to give up the 200 day moving average without
a fight, and short-term sentiment measures are supportive of some
short-term rally attempt to get underway soon. However, remember that
the intermediate-term trend is down, and market internals are screaming
"bear-market". Thus, we feel that the best course of action is to remain
short, as we feel that much more downside is yet to come.
Despite the late session hail-mary rescue by bulls, cutting a 283
point Dow decline to only a 77 point loss at the close, market internals
painted a much bleaker picture of the day. New lows demolished new highs
by 496 issues to 23 issues. Decliners trounced Advancers by 2301 issues
to 802 issues. These are much weaker numbers than would normally be seen
with a 77 point Dow loss. What it suggest is that Friday's late rally
was more manipulation by specialists and pros to create a bull-trap. We
see it as a transparent ploy, and think that more downside will follow
Sentiment numbers are at levels that would normally produce a rally
within a bull market. The problem is that we aren't in a bull market and
thus the old rules are going to fail bulls time and time again. The OEX
put/call ratio remained at a high reading of 1.38 Friday. The Rydex
ratio hit 90% on Friday. These types of readings may produce short-term
oversold conditions. However, the result of these conditions is more
likely to be dead-cat bounce rallies rather than anything more
substantial to the upside. To be sure, we would rather see these
indicators come back to at least neutral levels fromm a contrarian
standpoint, but we are not willing to close out our short position based
on these readings alone.
We will be away on travel from Monday thru Thursday of this week,
and hence there will be no daily update until Friday 8/28. We feel that
the best course of action is to remain short via our current Ursa trade.
Any rally attempts next week should be weak and short-lived. There is
much unfinished business on the downside for this market, and we intend
to profit from it.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:41 - ID#35571)
Never fear, Gollum is here. A perfect day for flying high. High above the world's strife and problems.

One difficulty that might arise is that our good plane Icarus might get a little too near the sun, but we all have golden parachutes, right?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:42 - ID#252391)
ROR I have two concerns
Concern #1 - that gold doesn't go up;

Concern #2 - it goes up and comes right back down again.

I believe the Republican controlled US Congress will be a block to nationalization of gold mines until things really get carried away. That ought to be sometime when gold is trading north of $750 per oz. I think we have quite a time to pass before that happens. The dollar will ease which will be good for the multi-nationals.

After all I heard it said on CNBC we would know if we really were in for trouble because gold would be going it's not, well there you see everything is really all right - just a little correction.

Does that all sound a little naive?????

Thanks for the update on the lease rates, ROR.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:43 - ID#35571)
@Flash Gordon__A
Easy, big fella!, easy there.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:43 - ID#331387)
I have massive exposure to phosphate thru PLP/IGL. What happens to
Chinese demand if a devaluation occurs. Thanks. Post here or

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:46 - ID#350194)
@ROR@7:44 and Glenn
ROR - Just read your 7:44 and couldn't agree more. ( Also with your earlier in-depth Homestake analysis ;- ) ) The overvaluation of the American dollar IS the main problem with the present malaise in the world. How long can a world awash in the stuff can keep placing such a high value on them is the $64,000. question.
Glenn I missed the post saying you're short Gold right now and being a trader I wonder why you would be short when we seem to be holding the major support area? Wouldn't this be a better juncture to be long with protective stops and/or puts? Or alternately go short ( if nimble enough ) with sell orders in place under $280.?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:48 - ID#39862)
The "other" side of the USA....

Never ending .....

Whats so important about the Dollar, when you have this problem ?

Strange place.......

(Mon Aug 24 1998 08:51 - ID#424424)
Old Gold - Shepler
Where is the Shepler web page?



(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:13 - ID#254269)
Good morning. Re Polly Klaas site. You're right, that is the "dark side"
of the USA. Without downplaying the seriousness of child abductions, crime, etc. you really need to keep the USA in perspective. What many non
Americans cannot understand, is the sheer SIZE of the USA, both population and geography. And, that is why you ( by that I mean the general public ) only see the stuff that makes the national and international press. There are murders every day in California and New York, but unless they are "truly hoffific", they don't get reported in the Texas newspapers and vice versa. That's why, non Americans mostly
"only see" the really sensational bad stuff.

It would be interesting to see how most major countries compare on a per capita basis, with respect to crime.

I was truly amazed when that idiot when crazy with the gun in Tasmania two years ago. That was the last place on earth, I would have expected anything like that.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:14 - ID#347267)
@Gollum Why Too Kay
G' morning Mr. G. Once again, I enjoyed the thrill ride Friday last!
Re: the NSTL site: I first found them over a year ago. Investigated and found them to be very well thought of by many contractors. Granted they have something to sell, but it is needed. They are the testing orgaization used by many computer manufacturers in the US; check it out. My old computer, when tested with their system ( download is quick, must test in DOS ) failed, but told me that I can continue to operate by resetting the clock manually.
also see:
Best regards; Mtn Bear

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:22 - ID#347267)
@Gollum todays flight?
Now yu stay out of that Bermuda Triangle!! We don't want to lose yu; 'sides ther's a pretty big blow down thataway!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:23 - ID#344236)
Hong Kong/PPT = OK/Official

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:23 - ID#289357)
Metals and currencies
An excellent site for charts and technical analysis.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:26 - ID#347267)
Time problems:
Anyone noted the posting times recorded on our posts? I posted my last one at exactly 0930 coincident eith the market open on CNBC, and the time says 0922 on the post!?!?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:29 - ID#290172)
A call for a new deck?
One pondersHKMA's open purchase of index options
Panic? Or a not so subtle 'raise' from a four-ace hand.

Do we REALLY think no other government has been quietly using this ploy? And perhaps-just perhaps-HKMA called for a new deck of cards?

One country, two governments, one people, one pride. Remember the Chinese Future's Engineering Ltd.? Smaarrrt bunch of fellows...{:- )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:29 - ID#35571)
DOW +49
Good morning passengers. We have just taken off for our peacefull scenic ride this morning. The weather is clear and we should be having pleasant flying conditions. You may now feel free to unfasten your seat belts and move freely around the passenger compartment.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:33 - ID#35571)
DOW +63
There have been many requests for an "inverted Friday" flight, and conditions look good. So what do you say we go for it?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:34 - ID#433143)
Flash Gordon
Heya get an Abit motherboard. your problems will be solved.
ohhh and uhh if anyone would like some goodies..

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:40 - ID#433143)
i meant http:// not ftp://....

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:41 - ID#329186)
Advice help required
I am offered Maple leaf ( 10th Aniv ) in box 10oz silver reverse proof/silver cert for 120.00 approx US$194 seems well over the silver price.

also new issue Brittania one ounce silver bullion Unc tube of 20 199.5 approx US$323

other 1 Kilo stamped silver bullion 145 approx US$340 this 10.62 US$ per ounce anywhere cheaper in the UK ?

Thanks in advance


(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:42 - ID#288186)
Gollum; Just let us know when we should re-fasten our seatbelts. TIA

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:50 - ID#320202)
CNBC - Gold discussion

Good morning fellow bugs, turn on CNBC , ( if you are 't on already )
they will have the long awaited Gold discussion, ( I believe at 10:30 am )

Gollum: you are priceless, thanks


(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:53 - ID#290172)
Is that you humming, "Fly me to the moon"?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 09:57 - ID#329186)
Flash Gordon_A (Y2k: HP suppliers)
I guess you are UK based HP are not the most helpfull ( deny they have managers etc ) but you could try good Luck

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:00 - ID#290172)
Through the wide-angle lens...

Who sees with equal eye, as God of all,
A hero perish, or a sparrow fall,
Atoms or systems into ruin hurled,
And now a bubble burst, and now a world.
Alexander Pope, "An Essay on Man"

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:02 - ID#35571)
DOW +72
Off the port side you can see the Wall Street skyline. Here is a copy, once again, for you who do not have one of our projected flight plan:

So long as we do not depart strongly one way or another from this profile all will be well. Please not that even though we may be flying high from time to time, this is a BEAR profile, so be ready to fasten your seatbelts upon very short notice.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:04 - ID#35571)
No, that's the copliot. Watch out for when he start's whistleing "I was high and mighty".

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:06 - ID#320202)
Gold-debate on CNBC

oops, it is scheduled at 11:40 am,..............waiting and waiting !!


(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:07 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John,

I'm happy to report to you that I got all
Russians in Angola so drunk that they are
not able to uprade not just Angolan army,
but nothing in principle, they cann't even
walk any more...Expect them to stay in this
condition until you say they can walk again...

If you see any Russian in the news that seems
to stand and walk, and appears to shake hands
with some high-ranking Angolan officer, this
is the only guy who has liver problem and
thus refused to drink...But don't worry, his liver
problem is a serious matter...and he is the only

Now, this a contest, please try to answer, my brother -
who among the great Russian writters travelled to Khartum
in 19th century?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:07 - ID#215235)
CNBC Gold Debate
CNBC is having a gold debate between a bull and a bear at 11:40 AM.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:12 - ID#384350)
a.j., Bingo, your post 22:20, Clinton's Real Birth Name
During the US presidential election campaigns of 1992, the Utah office of presidential candidate, Col. "Bo" Gritz, called the Clinton-Gore campaign headquarters and requested a genealogical background ( family-tree ) on Bill Clinton.

They were told that Clinton's mother's maiden name was Rockefeller! When pursued on the matter, the Clinton-Gore office refused to comment any further.

( Source: Center For Action Monthly Newsletter, vol.2, no. 16, 1992 )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:21 - ID#426220)

Actually, the title of gold analyst Joseph Miller's study is a in a way misnomer. It is in reality a study based upon the analysis of the DOW/GOLD Ration from 1885 to the present. Yes, this historic chart is indeed there for your copying for future reference. It's a keeper - which is difficult to find elsewhere.

First the chart clearly shows that there are cycles in
the relationship between gold prices and the
value of the stock market as represented by the
DJIA. We can easily see that there have been
six turning points in this relationship between
the stock market and gold prices during the
last hundred years. It is evident that the cycle lengths are
irregular, so we can not gain any timing insight from cycle length.
We can observe, however, that the cycle length has been shorter
in recent years, probably due to the accelerating pace of
information flow in recent years. We should also observe that
once a new cycle starts, it tends to last for many years. This
makes the recognition of a turning point of great importance if an
investor is to correctly choose the best investment vehicle and to
know whether to be a bull or bear in that market.

When we examine the three bottom turning points on the
chart, we see that they come when the ratio is in the one to
two ounces of gold range. This means that it only takes one
or two ounces of gold to buy one unit of the DJIA. This more
importantly means that gold prices are very high relative to
stock prices, and suggests a prudent investor would sell his
gold and purchase suitable stocks which fit his investment

The evidence appears overwhelmingly to
suggest that we are in a turning point in the relationship
between stock prices ( paper assets ) and gold prices ( real
assets ) . If this is correct, then we should see stock prices
fall and gold prices rise for the next few years at least.

One of gold analyst Miller's closing statements is noteworthy:

"I point out the evidence which suggests gold prices are at a historically low level in 1998, by from $300 to as much as $2,000.

Joseph Miller's Report & Chart ( 1895 to present ) may be seen at the following website. As usual it will be necessary to delete the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet:

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:23 - ID#240288)

In the US, circulating coins were 90% Silver before 1965. They are available now as "Junk Silver". You can get Silver nealy at spot buying these coins. Did the UK also remove Silver from their coins around this time? Are there "Junk Silver" British coins available?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:26 - ID#432157)
All Americans----Question
What is the signifance of Clinton----Rockafeller ?????

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:30 - ID#35571)

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:33 - ID#238422)
My guess is that Victor Chernomyrdin will start
printing a lot of rubles to bring liquidity into
the Russian industry. Don't know if this this
good or bad for your business, but I believe
you are much safer now with your Russian operations...

Don't know who is behind "Global Intelligent Report",
but their view on Russian situation is really far
from being accurate...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:33 - ID#333264)
best buy on silver

Has anyone had a good experience buying coins over internet? I want to purchase a small quantity ( 100-200 ) of silver maples that my local dealer is having problems getting. Thanks in advance.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:35 - ID#329186)
Auric (cpo-au silver id#240288
Hi, thanks to my knowledger there is no Junk Silver" british available ~ that is as you have those silver bags for sale.
The Britiannia one ounce Bullion is new 1998 and a tube of 20 appeared a better way to have "change"

The 1 kilo bars ( maccotta ) at 145 234$ to me seems a large premium over spot ( I am told manufacturing costs )
am if i can't find better prices maybe I will buy us and pay the vat 17.5% ??
its not so easy as gold decisions?????????


(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:40 - ID#431200)
Yet, why has the U.S. outpaced every other country in economic, political and military power? Where

Several factors make America an economic titan

By Cynthia L. Kemper

International Business Consultant

Aug. 23 - EDITOR'S NOTE: This is the first of a two-part series on American global competitiveness based on interviews with Professor Jonathan Adelman, a specialist on China and Russia with the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies, and Agota Kuperman, a former senior diplomat for the U.S. Department of State and cultural attache to Germany.

American confidence in the U.S. economy evokes both elation and cautionary concern. While some are riding our current wave of prosperity with little or no worry about tomorrow, others question whether our success may only be the calm before the storm. But rather than a time for taking our successes for granted or forecasting gloom, some see the present as a time for proactive thinking and implementation designed to prepare our country for a more secure global future. Into the last group fall the University of Denver's Jonathan Adelman and former U.S. diplomat Agota Kuperman, who have taken on the task of assessing the assets and liabilities facing our country from a globally competitive perspective today. This week, our focus will be America's assets as it rounds the corner into the next millennium. Next week, we'll address our country's perceived liabilities, and conclude with some thoughts to ponder.

"Overconfidence in a country like the United States - at the very height of its power - may be natural but can also be a very dangerous matter,'' Adelman said. "The very fact that most of us overestimate our country's power and underestimate the threats and dangers it faces, should be cause for concern.''

It may be true that the United States is currently in the unique historical position of having no major enemies. And where productivity, economic output and military might are concerned, we remain No. 1 in the world.

"But, the danger lies here: When you are the world leader, the tendency is to avoid or deny the need for risk management, thus leaving you unprepared,'' Adelman said. "We should not automatically assume that the natural business cycle has been abolished; that growth will always be linear, bigger and better. Further, we've discovered that the transition to a free-market economy and democratic society is far more difficult for other countries than originally thought.''

Yet, why has the U.S. outpaced every other country in economic, political and military power? Where do our strengths lie? Here are Adelman and Kuperman's thoughts:

Information technology leadership. The United States is at the forefront of the global information technology revolution in development and adaptation.

Immigration. By continuing to take in 700,000 immigrants a year - the majority of all legal immigrants in the world - the United States benefits from people with a strong work ethic and new ideas. The 1930s wave of immigration of Central European Jewish refugees contributed greatly to the success of the Manhattan Project in 1945, while the current wave of Asian immigrants is contributing to our success in science and technology today.

Competitive environment. U.S. openness to immigration and technological advances has created a welcome, competitive environment for entrepreneurs - something greatly limited by governmental, cultural and societal limitations in many other countries.

Openness to failure. Our willingness to learn from failure has fostered a strong entrepreneurial spirit. In Europe, failure usually induces shame. In Silicon Valley, it's more often a badge of honor.

Labor mobility. Unlike our Asian and European counterparts, flexible American attitudes encourage openness to job mobility and flexibility.

Creative and proper use of capital. Ongoing studies indicate the American economy is much more efficient with the actual allocation and availability of capital than more capital-intensive economies like Japan and Germany.

Size. Until recently, the United States has been the world's largest free, open-market economy - better preparing us for global competition.

Agriculture. The United States has the best naturally endowed, marketized agricultural business culture in the world. Only 2 percent of our workforce is on the farm, yet it supplies all of our needs and a $50 billion surplus in exports.

Idealism/can-do attitude. The American "frontier spirit,'' still alive and well, is at the core of our ability to continually overcome and create new and innovative ways to solve global problems. Cynthia L. Kemper is a Denver-based consultant and trainer who specializes in international business issues. Her column appears every Sunday. E-mail her at

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:48 - ID#289357)
geoffs @ Clinton / Rockefeller

Here are a couple links for you....I put the 2nd one in just for laughs. Or maybe not.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:52 - ID#238422)
The single most important reason why the U.S. outpaces
others is that the U.S. has a lot of wealth to spend.

Look at the USSR when it had huge financial resources -
- it was superpower, look at Russia now...

Of course, other factors mentioned in the article you posted
are also important, but availability of money is what matters
most of all...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:54 - ID#286230)
What we need to know is how much longer the US will lead. Clearly leadership is now in trouble.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:59 - ID#316193)
Victor Weintraub - "The Myth of Large Cap Liquidity" (Linked From SuperBear Page)

(Mon Aug 24 1998 10:59 - ID#229207)
Looks like the sun melted the wax a bit, making the wings soft and not providing as much lift. Can it be that some buy market orders from Friday didn't get processed and, after they got processed this a.m., there may be fewer buy orders versus sell orders?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:03 - ID#255226)
IDT - Trading SnP
I sold my longs at 1093.50, went short at 1097.50, 1100 -1101 is a potential stop out area

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:09 - ID#35571)
No. I didn't expect much today and tomorrow. Look at the flight profile and you'll see it's pretty flat.

The flight was kind of wild Friday and no one wants to put his toe in the water until someone else does first.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:12 - ID#290287)
got my puter back!
Fun for for Tolerant1

Fun for JTF, Mike Sheller, all

For new shooters

Fun for me
Bought a bunch of common Morgan silver dollars.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:15 - ID#187267)
The single most important reason why the US is a nation which has obviously been blessed is... it's treatment of, and policies toward the nation of Israel. It is clearly stated in Genesis 12:3, Numbers 24:9 etc. "Blessed is he that blesses thee ( Israel ) , and cursed is he who curses thee.." As long as the US continues to have policies supportive of Israel, they will continue to be a powerful nation.
The most important part of verse 3 of Genesis chapter 12 is the second half of the verse though, where it says "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". That has happened by God sending his son, as a Jew, or an Israelite, to die for the sins of the world, and thereby blessing anyone, of any family who will believe in Him.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:18 - ID#431200)

The public just isn't buying Hillary Rodham Clinton's story that she learned of President Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky only days before he admitted it to the world.


A whopping 84 percent of Americans think Mrs. Clinton knew of the affair for some time, according to a new Newsweek magazine poll. Only 11 percent believe she just found out.

The level of skepticism could rise because Newsweek also claims that Mrs. Clinton knew of another long-term affair of her husband's.

The previously undisclosed affair, in the late 1980s, almost broke up the Clintons' marriage, claims Newsweek, which didn't identify the woman except to say it wasn't Gennifer Flowers, with whom Clinton this year admitted to having an affair, after denying it for years.

The question of what - and when - the First Lady knew could be vital to her husband's political future.

That's because the White House is trying to put forth the spin that if Mrs. Clinton forgives her husband, so should the rest of the country, as in 1992 when he admitted causing "pain in my marriage."

"Mrs. Clinton is presenting herself as a victim who's a willing political prop," says Republican pollster Kellyanne Fitzpatrick.

"The White House wants her to say, "I forgive him' - and then tacitly ask all the rest of us to forgive him."

White House leakers even invoked Mrs. Clinton's name to answer criticism that the president should have apologized to Lewinsky when he spoke to the nation last Monday. That idea was withdrawn out of sensitivity to Mrs. Clinton, they claimed.

The White House spin machine keeps leaking various accounts of when Mrs. Clinton learned her husband cheated on her and lied.

The latest version is that the president 'fessed up to his wife on Thursday, Aug. 13, after returning home from a memorial service for the victims of the Nairobi embassy bombing.

Only then did the president supposedly admit his Lewinsky affair had gone on 18 months with at least half a dozen sexual encounters, says Newsweek, which says Mrs. Clinton is "ticked off" at suggestions she was an enabler who knew of the affair and helped cover it up.

The same report also says the president told his wife last January that he "slipped briefly" with Lewinsky - but adamantly denied Lewinsky could possibly have a semen-stained dress.

In another account, press secretary Marsha Berry claimed the First Lady was "misled" and first learned the truth "over the weekend" of Aug. 15-16.

But Berry said Mrs. Clinton learned "the nature of ^the president's upcoming_ testimony over the weekend." The dodgy language could suggest Mrs. Clinton was simply saying she learned what he would say - not what he did.

If Clinton did, indeed, make a mini-confession last January, was Mrs. Clinton telling the truth when she told the world that it was all a "vast right-wing conspiracy"?

And if Mrs. Clinton had no reason to doubt her husband's word until Aug. 13 or 16, why had she been in hiding, avoiding reporters and TV interview requests for weeks, ever since Lewinsky cut a tell-all immunity deal with Sexgate prober Ken Starr?

Others say it is hard to believe Mrs. Clinton could have remained in the dark as she accompanied her husband to church on Sunday, Aug. 16 - when The Washington Post and TV commentators were telling the world her husband was getting ready to 'fess up to her.

The White House line is that Mrs. Clinton avoids TV and newspaper reports on Sexgate and that those items are omitted from news summaries provided to her.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:27 - ID#280339)
@APH Re: Techniques please?
You made a number of great calls but you never gives any reasons. I'm not asking for trade secrets just some basic pointers. A lot of Kitcoites would be interested, especially me.


Go Gold!

Flash Gordon__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:27 - ID#284318)
@CPO, G-NUTZ, Gollum

d;o )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:36 - ID#387288)

Not bullion, but I recently bought several numismatic coins that I am happy with through Coin World. Unless you are preparing for the end of the world, numismatic is probably a better investment.
Check out their CU3000 price index. Apparently their is a lot more interest among investors-especially since January and heightened Asia fears-for collector coins. Proof gold coins are up since Aug 97 7%, I believe. The overall index is also up about the same.

I haven't sold any back but apparently that isn't too difficult either. The coins are sealed and officially graded. Coin World only charges for shipping and handling unlike other auction sites.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:44 - ID#246224)
Hello, All!
CPO, you should be able to do better then spot+100% on those silver bullion coins. Do you have a company like Monex ( LA, CA ) which will let you trade physical and also sell you coins on the outbound trip? A pity if not. Personally, I'd not buy until you found a source which is closer to spot+about 20%, but its your call.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:46 - ID#320202)
Gold debate on CNBC

well, what can you expect from CNBC, the much touted debate, lasted 5 min. between the gold bear Bill O'Neill from Merill lynch, and Harry Bingham , van Eck Global Gold Portfolio Manager,
Bingham sees the Gold at 400.00 next year and possibly much higher, he says basically the same we hear on Kitco, about the credit crunch etc.
Bill O'Neill, could not say much, than just he thinks it is still a bad investment.
sorry, that's as good as I can report

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:47 - ID#333127)
gold debate
Must be pos. gold is up

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:47 - ID#284255)
Y2k test
Who hasn't responded yet???

Results so far
Failures RTC = 16
Compliance = 2

RTC non compliance faults:

What will happen:

Prove It test shows most PCs unlikely to pass Y2K analysis

This obvious failure with RTC's
Is as much a deathknell for Y2k
As the GPS failure admission.

Deny it or accept it.
It's out there and very real.

Got gold???

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:51 - ID#288186)
Gollum; Are we temporarily landing, to re-fuel? I'm looking out my window
and seeing what I thought were people on the ground, but they're
really ants! Also, if you wouldn't mind, keep those levers steady
on the PM's today. We don't won't to take any mine shaft rides until
it's time to get aboard the PM ROCKET SHUTTLE!! TIA Foxman

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:53 - ID#290287)
oris, Old Soldier
Sorry to keep the subject going, but I think it important that new shooters, get that 5000 rounds of .22 cal practice but, do not depend on .22 cal for self defense. Remembering back to when I used to read about such morbid things- Considerable research ( Hatcher, FBI, CIA, Army, Cooper, et. al. ) has been done on STOPPING POWER ( not necessarily lethality. ) For handguns in shaky hands, they found a heavy, big bore, medium speed slug is the best choice ( 45 auto, 44 special ) . I compromise with the higher magazine capacity, lower recoil, and pointability of 9mm pistol, but the simplicity and dependability of a .357mag/.38 special, double action revolver might be the best choice for newbies. Maybe Old Soldier can tell us why the US military recently switched to 9mm pistols.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 11:54 - ID#43185)
You've heard of Black Friday and Bloody Tuesday and all those? Well we are going for a new historical day. This will be known as Flat Monday.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:00 - ID#290287)
oris, Old Soldier
Make that a heavy, long barreled .357 mag revolver, not a snubby, after the .22 for beginners. :- )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:02 - ID#290172)
Gollum, might we make that "smooth Monday"?
Whilst airborne, "flat" conjures up some scary visions...
ps--if we land for refueling, would y'all pay particular attention to
the center fuel tank? please? Thank you. Keep up the good work. Away...humming "Mamma don't 'llow..." {:- )

Cage Rattler
(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:07 - ID#33184)
Is there a navigator? What about ground control ???

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:11 - ID#266105)
the apocalyptic meta-twaddle is getting a bit thick

EB, send in the farces of sanity. Come in Swan Island.

So the Japanese are into the commercial paper in no small
way with public money. There is really no avenue or end
that will be left untried to make what has already long
failed to work. The alternative is unthinkable for that
way lays madness.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:15 - ID#280214)
Envy - thanks muchly for your 02:52
Your description of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse is far better
is far more detailed than I have gotten elsewhere {which was usually a foggy guess of three of the four. That they had seals also fits - I didn't know that the graphic depiction included that. Regarding the measures of wheat and barley for a penny I wonder how that may be interpreted. A penny back then may have been a considerable amount of "money". That a coin is involved is significant.
Regardless of the metal, though we would all prefer Gold or Silver, I believe coins are historically and traditionally "money" and not just small change either. It would be great to have coins that are worth as much as current US $5, $10 and $20 notes. One coin at the lower end of that range would suffice since we could always use two, three or four.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:19 - ID#280214)
Sam, Oris, Old Soldier - how about a 44 or 45 shotshell?
The 44magnum should be able to deliver a small pattern of several pellets with enough force to be a cause for pause.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:25 - ID#34191)
y2k test
Thanks for the site. ZDnet found my RTC failed 1/1/2000, passed the rest. Is the site faulty? Will the McAfee Toolbox fix it? Can we just reset the clock or wait until Feb to turn on the computer? Thanks for your insight. Great group of fellow kooks here.

P.S I'm hoping the 150 to 300 miles to the big cities will insulate me from the mob. I will do my best to inform my neighbors so we can all be ready together. I'm pres. of our local Cattlewomen starting in Oct. so I hope to get a large group to be ready. I'm also talking to our County commissioners about emergency plans. I hope they can make the poor and unprepared people reasonably comfortable.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:26 - ID#153102)
Not all things made by man belong to the popular name for them.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:29 - ID#387288)
american wealth

America is the most powerful nation because
Americans are/were morally superior and, thus,
more favored by God.

Before you spit that one back out, read on

Unfortunately, our moral engine is sputtering. We
still have enough speed and we're on a down
slope-the rest of the world is making us look
good-but the next hill will probably do us in.

The three moral economic pillars are: Thou shalt
not Steal, Thou shalt not covet, and Thou shalt
not bear false witness. For good measure throw in
the 2nd greatest commandment-love your neighbor as
yourself. Because of the fundamental wickedness of
man, however, the greatest commandment must be
learned first-you shall love the Lord your God
with all your being.

Leftism says that those who have are evil ( false
witness ) , it is our right to have what they have
( covetousness ) , and we must take what they have
( stealing ) .

It seems to me just by simple observation of recent history that he economic power of a nation is directly related to whether the power of the gun is used to implement leftism or in some degree the principles of Judaism/Christianity ( the more biblically based the better, that is, conservative/conservative Protestant ) .

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:29 - ID#387288)
american wealth

America is the most powerful nation because
Americans are/were morally superior and, thus,
more favored by God.

Before you spit that one back out, read on

Unfortunately, our moral engine is sputtering. We
still have enough speed and we're on a down
slope-the rest of the world is making us look
good-but the next hill will probably do us in.

The three moral economic pillars are: Thou shalt
not Steal, Thou shalt not covet, and Thou shalt
not bear false witness. For good measure throw in
the 2nd greatest commandment-love your neighbor as
yourself. Because of the fundamental wickedness of
man, however, the greatest commandment must be
learned first-you shall love the Lord your God
with all your being.

Leftism says that those who have are evil ( false
witness ) , it is our right to have what they have
( covetousness ) , and we must take what they have
( stealing ) .

It seems to me just by simple observation of recent history that he economic power of a nation is directly related to whether the power of the gun is used to implement leftism or in some degree the principles of Judaism/Christianity ( the more biblically based the better, that is, conservative/conservative Protestant.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:33 - ID#329186)
Allen(USA) ID#246224
Thanks I think I will wait a while.

willcontinue my search


cpo gold

EZ Believer__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:33 - ID#226287)
Hugo, You got it right!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:34 - ID#261155)
@ sam and excet....
The 45 was designed to get a man off his he could not keep comming and do any bad deeds....once down, there isn't any follow thru threat from momentum.....I lost my system the other day and the icq..BTW

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:38 - ID#209130)
Sharefin: Add another RTC failure. Still give a "compliant" result but leaves the obvious question, doesn't it?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:38 - ID#261155)
failed RTC and this is 98 p11 233....agp..ow....ow ow

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:40 - ID#147201)
Silverbaron re Clinton & UFO
This is a very good site ( s ) . Thanx for the reference. I can see his plan now. ET will be our Heavens Gate

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:47 - ID#261155)
@that pecularity of the .45
was why the Military went to it from the 38'.....the hyper of the
action drove many who were literally dead on their feet....thru to maim or kill.......hence....get the sucker off his feet.....^s^

John Disney__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:48 - ID#24135)
Tough Quiz ..
for Oris ..
Thanks a lot .. The Angolans catured a rebel base in
the west of the country yesterday .. with luck Savimbi
will cut their water off from behind..It's getting
confusing.. but no sign of any Russians.

On the quiz .. that's a really tough one .. Im only
guessing .. I know Gogol visited Jeruselem.. could he
have gone on to Khartoum as part of an organized tour??
I give up.

Gandalf the White
(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:50 - ID#433301)
Gollum (Gas up that plane again and get up there in the sky)
BECAUSE the ground is falling out from under you !
My crystal ball says down 100 by the close.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:51 - ID#238422)
Brother Sam,

I think we should respect Mr.Kitner's patience and
try to keep most of the gun talk within weekend's
time frame, when markets are closed and we need some
rest from watching this Gold HorroR, yes?

In regard to this little thing you can buy for
an average of $1.00/per box of 50 - I do not advocate
using it instead of what would more natural to use, I'm just
saying it is much better than nothing and may be very
effective if you are well familiar with technology
and hardware for launching this things ...
( Hah, ...I encrypted my message to cover up the subject...
but you, my brother, will break my code.... ) .

The Hatt
(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:52 - ID#364255)
This without a doubt is the calm before the storm as the world waits for the next card to drop... The gold market has been held in a sixty cent trading range which is nothing more than the ppt balancing it off the Dow which looks as though it wants to move much lower. The Senior Golds are in the same holding pattern as they trade in a forty cent range.....
This calm is not indicative of what is happening in the World and you get the sence that things are about to bust wide open.. The what ifs are far to numerous to mention........

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:58 - ID#238422)
John Disney
It was Alexander Pushkin....or may be Uri Lermontov,
I need to check out, but it was one of them for sure...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 12:59 - ID#25257)
Most excellent observation my good man! And the blessings are just beginning.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:00 - ID#290287)
What's is y2k test
y'all are discussing? My puter was in shop all last week and I had only limited access to Kitco from another computer. Is the test easy to do? Do I really want to do it? TIA

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:01 - ID#304282)
Gandalf always was wiser than Gollum!!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:02 - ID#304282)
Gandalf always was wiser than Gollum!!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:03 - ID#280214)
Marshall - thank you to for adding to the descriptions
of The Four Horsemen.
We are in deep horse doo doo within the next decade - yes?
I we sure about the "Green" horse though?
Envy has a point about multiple translations.
If the author is adhering in any way to natural horse colors
I could understand white, red, black and pale- but green?
We must be wary of making our data fit our desired interpretation.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:07 - ID#290281)
Sharefin..RTC test
I said that I tested compliant but I did not pass the RTC test.
Since it said that I was compliant, I thought I was ok.
Now what.... Seems many of us are testing RTC negative.
Hey, do I not pass "GO" and get a shiny new computer with all the bells and whistles?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:09 - ID#246224)
"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
Distant relations report the sudden arrival of three Jewish families to their very ruraland remote New England village in the past few weeks. Paid quick for nice homes. They hail from the Island that is Long. I suppose they must be simply looking for a little peace and quiet ( come 2000 ) . The choosen people are worth watching. For even in the midst of great trouble and humiliation, God still watches over them to preserve their generations till the coming of Messiah.

Next year, in Jerusalem!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:10 - ID#350194)
Silver Coins
In case the previous question was not satisfactorily answered, I believe the correct answer is YES the British formerly had circulating coins with silver content as did Mexico, France and many other countries, including Canada. I believe the Canadian ones stayed good ( 80%? ) until 1966 and then in 1967 went 50%. In 1968 some were still very briefly 50% but for the rest of the year poof. This phasing out process of Silver from the circulating coins of the world gave a very clear early warning system to anyone who was paying attention at the time.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:11 - ID#290287)
Dave, oris

In case you want to re-install ICQ and keep the old registration, your number was 13880476



(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:17 - ID#280214)
Hugo, Jim, et al - Freedom is the key
I believe that American history of liberties and free enterprise are the key to our prosperity, success, etc. Am I correct in my understanding that America of the late 1700's and early 1800's was the first time in recent human history where freedom was permitted to reign on such a large scale. Historians here please correct me if the Greeks or other peoples hold that honor.

Unfortunately, we are stifling ourselves with government.
We are surely strangling the Golden Goose.
If we fail in its defense then freedom may perish from the Earth
for some number of decades or centuries as we devolve into dark ages.

Religion and "freedom" have rarely been able to coexist. They both undermine the other. Religious crusades and intolerance have been used to oppress, torture and kill people throughout the millenia. I do not believe that any foundation of religion is conducive to freedom unless it is prevented from gaining oppressive power.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:26 - ID#261155)
@ ok Sam.....
let's do this quick.....I am ready ... send... damn sad this silver thing.....just lays there and quivers....hope you alright with that..jezzz it just lays there.....not at all like Ag is supposed to do....^s^

PH in LA
(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:31 - ID#225408)
Too Good to be True?
Our friend LGB continues to post his predictable guffaws about ANOTHER without offering much in the way of refutation beyond his own inability to comprehend ANOTHER's tenents. In an investment world where the "greater fool" theory is held in wide acceptance, he will surely mreit the title " Greatest Fool" if any part of ANOTHER's scenario proves true. In that case he will deserve congratulation on his choice of forum for his derisive snickers since it will be easy for him to disappear into the hitherto well-deserved non-identity his mere 1000% stock market gains will have earned him ( while reserving the right to re-incarnation under some other moniker, of course. )

In any case, the picture ANOTHER paints of the coming conversion of world reserve currency from dollars to euros with gold as the only available "door" offering preservation of capital during the process is still complete and logically compelling. However, two portions of the picture seem slightly out of focus to this observer.

1. ) Why is this reality, which, according to ANOTHER is based on events already consumated, not being factored into markets, already? Why do we see no movement in the price of gold? Friend of ANOTHER's latest post at USAGold hints that the rise in the dollar-price of gold may take a whole year after the destruction of the dollar begins in earnest. Why so long? ( ANOTHER did recently say that the time to sell the dollar is at hand. ) These views seem to coincide with those of John Kutyn that the destruction of paper markets is inevitable. Is warren Buffet the only major investor to have understood? Will these events really come as a complete surprise, in spite of their preparation on the world stage?

The other out-of-focus frame appears when we look beyond the conversion of the Euro to world reserve currency.

2. ) When ANOTHER speaks of the demise of the dollar, is he actually speaking/thinking predominently in international terms? In other words, what will happen to that part of the world that still will be forced to use the dollar for "trading purposes"? Certainly, his picture is not one in which the United States ceases to exist as a large component of western civilization. Much developement and many assets will still need to be traded from one person to another if the West's many years of civilization are to continue with any continuity at all. What will happen to the average person's mortgage, credit card debt, etc? Friend of ANOTHER mentions hyperinflation albeit partly diluted by defaults in Mexico, Asia, Russia, etc. In a hyperinflation, wouldn't all surviving debts be in effect diluted? Would't even modest gains in foreign exchange ( Euros ) or gold investment have the effect of annulling the average person's liabilities while the assets of debt issuers evaporate? In the system we have all come to know ( if not love ) , windfall profits are not part of the average person's landscape. The lottery is not an avenue to riches, merely a revenue-raiser for the state. The only windfalls reserved for the average citizen are windfall losses. ie, bankruptcies of stock-issuing companies, changes in interest rates, tax increases by the government, cheaters and liers in a myriad of forms, etc. Banks are insured immune to bankruptcy to protect capital investments while at the same time insuring the continueing responsibility of debtors to the system. Mortgages are never cancelled, no matter the fate of the individual bank. As my father used to say, "When it sounds too good to be true, it usually is." Would ANOTHER's future turn out to be the exception that proves the rule? Is the current evolving reality really "not as before"? Does something else await?

Verily, "We watch the present gold market, together. Yes?"

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:40 - ID#365216)
Y2k Under Martial Law
See for more info:


If the computer failures are sufficiently widespread, urban society will collapse.
Without banks, water, sewers, communications, and electrical power, cities will
become nightmares.

Under such conditions, the Federal government would have to declare martial law.

The question is: Could the Army carry out its assignments? It, too, is noncompliant.
Its systems are vulnerable to y2k.

There are indications that the U.S. government is preparing for martial law. Under
the cover of the phrases "critical infrastructure protection" and "cyberterrorism," the
government is setting up rapid deployment forces designed to provide order in
American cities.

The two politically convenient facts about about cyberterrorism are these: ( 1 ) the
timing is not specific; ( 2 ) the target is not specific. This keeps panic from occurring.
"It's the other guy's statisically remote problem." Or: "I'm prtobably OK; you're
probably OK." This is why "cyberterrorism" serves as a code work for "Year 2000
breakdown." The problems with y2k are the reverse: ( 1 ) it is date-specific; ( 2 ) it hits
everywhere at once. No cyberterrorist or hacker could dream of doing what y2k
has been programmed to do.

Plans to impose martial law have been in effect since late 1997. The training is the
same, so the public will not be alarmed. The Army has created special emergency
response divisions made up of National Guard units and Reserve units. But the plans
seem to have begun with an Executive Order signed by President Clinton in July,
1996, which set up the Presidential Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection
( PCCIP ) .

A series of executive orders that go back over three decades are in reserve, ready
to be announced and enforced by the President. For a list of links to a dozen of the
most comprehensive of these orders, click here.

In a y2k crisis, the public will call for emergency actions. Congress will not object.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:44 - ID#229207)
Can't you find some less choppy air? I keep spilling my coffee. Perhaps there's some smooth air down about, say, 8450 or 8400 feet?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:48 - ID#57232)
More talk of WJC resignation
All: Thought you might like to see the 'Inside the Beltway' latest. Will be interesting if this dies down. I think this time it is different. This will reinforce the longterm market bear.
I think one thing that WJC did not expect is the effect of the 'awakening' -- the information revolution. Past presidents could lead more private lives, and indiscretions could be covered up relatively easily. Not so, any more. And criticisim of that bombing of the pharmaceuticals plant in the Sudan is already beginning. No high-security doors/chambers needed for the production of toxic chemicals, apparently.
Does this sound like the kind of news a popular president gets? I think not. The highly non-scientific WJC political polls by the media are highly suspect. I'll bet that the pinnacle of his popularity has already passed, even if the Republicans have no stomache for impeachment right now. Just wait until WJC's fortunes, and the market's fortunes really start to wane. Then our FBI file - wary Republicans will be energized. Next year some time.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:48 - ID#251268)
Eh Squirrel,
Him who thge

Him who the Son sets free is free indeed,free from religion and everything else including fear,seems to be a little bit of fear on this forum lately,He hath not givin me the spirit of fear but of power and a sound mind,no doubt the world is and will be going through terrible times but some will be in good health and prosper,Okay getting down off my platform,whats up with gold?looks like another try by option sellers to hold it a VERY tight range until options expire 9 11 ?checking it out options are cheap on gold going into the next mill.? sooner or later some thing is going to blow?sure like to have some phiscal if I was living in Russia or Indo. or etc,good swell today in the Islands looks like east coast surfers are having a blast as well over and out


(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:49 - ID#289357)
Strategic Investment Newsletter coins (pun intended) a new name for the Canadian dollar

The Dollarette.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:56 - ID#35571)
@Gandalf the White
Strange. That crystal ball is not compatible with our flat, albeit choppy, flight. Perhaps I should raise the nose a little to counteract that downdraft.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:57 - ID#35571)
Sorry about that, but this is as quiet as it gets.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:58 - ID#286249)
On horses green
And what they mean

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:58 - ID#350194)
@PH in LA
I have often thought of the possibility that another hyperinflation may make the average homeowners dreams come true. Time will tell.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 13:59 - ID#35571)
Everything is so peacefull and calm, I'm just going to set this thing on autopilot and go take a nap. I'll be back later.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:01 - ID#343171)
Next year?
'Instead of Christ' comes first, yes?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:05 - ID#293211)
Greedy Greenie UN (squirrel)
A former head of the United Nations Javiar-Perez Decuellar
,the 5th Secretary-General of the United Nations, speaking to the general assembly said the following, "The United Nations is a patient horse, but it should not be ridden to a standstill without thought of consequences" I can assure you that the horseman out side of the front of the UN is GREEN. I worked there attached from the Armed Forces Police Detachment ( NY ) carrying classified messages from the UN mission building to the Waldorf Hotel every time Henry Kissenger was in NYC 74-75.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:12 - ID#402151)
gold lease rates

Pardon my ignorance, but is it possible that lease rates are so low because nobody in the know wants to short gold at these levels no matter what the inducement?

If the normal market forces of supply and demand don't always apply, then the abundance of gold for lease doesn't necessarily mean that the price will fall.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:16 - ID#246224)
I do not know. Many have speculated and some have had revelations regarding this. I believe it is much deeper than we generally appreciate. Our popular images tend to be one dimensional and limited to our rather poor imaginations. The end is clear, if not the details of how it all works out till then. Romans 11:25-26 is helpful as well as Ephesians 5:25-29. Daniel 2:41-45 as well.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:26 - ID#290287)
I am compliant per zdnet y2k test!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:26 - ID#288399)
Gollum aloft
Dow currently up 26 points. Hitting some thermals maybe?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:28 - ID#153102)
@Freedom Is The Key
True as you say, Squirrel. But, Liberty only exists under law. Now, under what body of law has Liberty ever existed and in nations professing what religion ?

All Law comes from religious inspiration and scripture. Martial law comes from the religion that worships power.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:30 - ID#370144)
Farfel - Hedge
I agree that gold is a hedge - but from what? Certainly a way to escape from a revolution or a court order or a pogrom with some of ones assets.

Historically, it also has proven to be a hedge against inflation and also deflation of locally held currency.

What it is clearly shown lately however, is that it is not a general safe-haven anymore for ones assets. The dollar is and will continue to be, as long as the dollar is strong relative to other currencies.

In these particular times for Americans, gold is a dubious hedge, a failure as a safe-haven and finally a disasterous as an investment.

When either inflation or a relatively weaker dollar appears, there will be plenty of time to shift into gold investments from a low level.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:31 - ID#424424)
Allen - Your generator comments
Have any names of firms that have pto or otherwise reconditioned
generators like the deal you mentioned on Friday?


Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:32 - ID#384350)
Translation please
Can someone tell me what B'rith means as in B'nai B'rith?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:49 - ID#374235)
@ Gianni Dioro
Come on. You don't know what B'nai means either, now do you?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:53 - ID#333127)
Tell me no inflation. Wife wants new kitchen so we have one priced out. For comparison we looked Sunday at new home 12 miles away. We estimated a value of 425k, realator says start at 540k, what an awakening. Cabinets we priced out custom made were 16k, I wouldn't have in my house what was standard in 540k house.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:53 - ID#384350)
@Test, B'nai
Nope, I don't know either. I know of B'nai B'rith, but I don't know what it means in Hebrew. Please tell. TIA.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:54 - ID#35571)
No, I just brought the nose up some because Gandalf the White saw down 100 in his crystal ball and I want to compensate so this thing comes in level.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:56 - ID#212197)
@Gianni Dioro: B'nai B'rith
I read a few years ago in a source which I do not recall that this means
"The Chosen of the Alliance".

Members can only become descendants of the oldest jewish aristocratic families, which means rabbi families as far as I know.

The word "Alliance" is open for interpretation. My understanding is, it refers to the alliance with Jehova, because ethnic groups ruled by priests tend to believe that their highest priests represent the interface between their tribal god and the rest of the believers.
But that's just my own interpretation.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:57 - ID#35571)
That's no surprise, EVERYONE was always wiser than Gollum.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 14:57 - ID#372262)
Son of the Covenant=Bnai Berith

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:02 - ID#335190)
Like Russia,& economic power & poverty @ USofA & economic power & poverty.(Voting & happy ending
Of Our Time

Paul Starr

Does the story of America in the twentieth century have a happy ending?
From the late 1960s until recently, many of us didn't think so. The lesson of Vietnam, Watergate, rising crime rates, and slowing economic growth seemed to be that America had fallen from grace into crisis and decline.

So when people suggest that the American system is unsinkable thanks in part to our unmatched technology, a nagging voice whispers that maybe an iceberg is out there, the economic and social forecasters have misplaced their binoculars, and the journalists on watch are being distracted by the noise of sexual encounters below.

This spring the Economist, that reliable spokesman for free market capitalism, pointed out that America may be experiencing an "asset bubble" and that there is an anomalous difference in how financial observers typically interpret higher prices for labor and for assets: when the price of labor goes up, that's bad news and requires bitter medicine from the Federal Reserve; but when the price of assets rises, that's good newsand confirms that government should just keep out of the way.

However, if stocks and other assets rise faster in price than their underlying value, that can spell just as serious a problem as increases in the price of labor that outpace productivity.

When the bubble bursts, the shock may send the whole economy into a tailspin.

What Gets the Poor to the Polls?

David Callahan
Returns indicate that only 38 percent of registered voters went to the pollsabout 1.5 million New Yorkers in a city where nearly 5 million people are eligible to vote. From past experience, members of the league know that when final data come in they will show turnout in poor neighborhoods like Harlem lagging far behind that of the rest of the city.

When the urban poor don't vote, they worsen their precarious situation by giving politicians little reason to care about them.

This pattern is repeated nationwide: in a country where tens of millions of low-income people don't vote, politicians face few penalties when they cut poverty programs and redistribute income upward.

There are no silver bullets that can slay electoral estrangement in the inner cities. But this estrangement need not remain an immutable feature of American politics. If political leaders pay attention to neglected urban voters, chances are greater that these voters will pay attention to them. Above all, we need public ideas and candidates who inspire poor people to believe that politics can make a difference in their lives.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:10 - ID#212197)
You said:
"All Law comes from religious inspiration and scripture. Martial law comes from the religion that worships power."

I couldn't disagree more strongly with anything else than with this statement.

I was always amazed how deeply a sharp analytical mind like you could be caught in the narrowness of power oriented religions, and I personally have no doubt that all flavours of religions which have appeared in our "Judaeo-Christian" culture are essentially power driven in their design.

Freedom oriented souls honor the devine within others and themselves and do not need the guidance of priests. Namaste.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:18 - ID#290172)
Merit Review Time--Using the goals THEY set, how well have they done?
Their mission statement:
Beginning 1972, US and European countries negotiated on the reform of the international monetary system. After four years, an agreement on an amendment of the Articles was reached in Jamaica in January 1976.

Floating of currencies had been forbidden under the Bretton Woods system, but was tentatively adopted as a temporary arrangement in 1973. Now the managed float is firmly established as it appeared as the only viable system for two reasons ( i ) continued growth of world trade without excessive fluctuations in exchange rates, ( ii ) the floating system coped with two oil crises with relative ease.

A new Article IV of Agreement was approved by the Board of Governors in April 1976, and was ratified by 2/3 of the member nations in 1978. The content of the second amendment ( first permitted creation of SDR ) is:

1. Legitimizing Floating Rates: A member country is free to choose its own exchange rate system. Freely floating, managed float, pegged to a currency or a group of currencies or SDR. Not to gold.

2. The Fund will exercise surveillance over the exchange rate policies, and adopt specific principles to guide member countries.

3. By an 85% majority, the Fund may reintroduce a system of adjustable peg. However, a member may remain without a par value. ( US can veto ) .

4. Downgrade the monetary role of gold ( gold cannot be used for international transactions ) .

5. Designate SDR as the principal reserve asset in the international monetary system.

Supervisor's comments: This employee is depriving some village of its idiot.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:35 - ID#25171)
Did you know that J. CHIRAC took the oath in front of the B' nai B'rith that he would never have a political pact with the FRONT NATIONAL?.
Hence , the political suicide of the french right.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:42 - ID#384350)
More Translation
Thanks for the translation, guys. I read somewhere that the Brit in Britain had its origins in B'rith, and I forgot what B'rith meant.

I was looking at some junk coins I have, and they say things like: Victoria Dei Gra Britt Regina Fid Def Ind Imp

Does anyone have an idea what this might mean? On another coin "Gra Britt" is in longer form: Gratia Britanniarum
From Gratia Britanniarum comes Great Britain I know, but I am interested in the origin behind it. I assume the Fid Def Ind Imp are abreviations. Fid perhaps for Fidele ( faithful )

Also, most of the coins also say: "Qui mal y pense honi soit" which I think means, "Cursed be he who thinks badly upon."

BTW, I'm looking at a currently circulated Pound coin. It says, Elizabeth II D G Reg F D ( The Reg short for Regina )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:46 - ID#153102)
Unerstand, please, this is not a conversation about conversion.

The history of Church and State in Europe makes communication on this topic difficult. Clerics supported by tax or compelled tithe have never been part of the American scene since Independence.

If we come at this topic from another angle, perhaps the reason of what I said will be more apparent. Someone asked on this forum a while back "What is justice ?" Now, what I am saying is that our idea of justice is always of religious origin. All scriptures are about Judgement, though not exclusively so. And hence, as the stated purpose of law is always to establish justice, the principles for judging, all law has its origin in religion.

The idea of justice of the United States government today has its origin in worship of power and is of the law of nations, which recognizes no power but earthly power. When M Albright spoke today of bringing the accused Libyans to trial before a Scottish Court sitting in the Netherlands in the interest of justice, the conception she conveyed was not of Christian origin. It was a conception that justice consists in detection, apprehension, and vengence by the State. She stated that nothing could ever balance the loss suffered by the families. In other words, the thirst for vengence could never be quenched. This is a martial law conception of justice.

The Christian conception of justice is represented by the blind figure holding balancing scales. The image portrays the logic of Measure for Measure. Not an unquenchable thirst for vengence, but restitution for damages done meted out in equal measure. And not trial by a Court, but by one's peers.

The dissatisfactory state of the administration of justice today does not justify disrespect and intentional ignorance of law, but rather is a compelling reason to understand how it is and can be perverted to base and selfish ends.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:46 - ID#257136)
Alberich....your 15:10 kinda confused me.
ALBERICH__A ( @Mozel ) ID#212197:

Copyright  1998 ALBERICH__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

You said:

"All Law comes from religious inspiration and scripture. Martial law comes from the

religion that worships power."

This , to me implies that The Christ did not desire to FORCE anyone to do anything.

In his confrontations with the adversary ( satan ) it was obvious that Satan tried to use force.

To me Martial Law means force.

Can you thiink of a better correllary between the first sentnce above and

the Gospel Of Brotherly Love in which we all allow others the Right to do as they please until and unless he/she/they get in our face or space or take what is not theirs?

" I personally have no doubt that all

flavours of religions which have appeared in our "Judaeo-Christian" culture are

essentially power driven in their design."

This point could stand some clarification for me to be comfortable with the concept of which you speak.

I would discuss this point further with you, but not online.

My email is in case u r innerested.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:49 - ID#335190)
Yeltsin @ "The bastard is gone"
August 24, 1998

- Boris Yeltsin called on Russians to "accept and support" his decision to sack Sergei Kiriyenko and bring back former prime minister Viktor Chernomyrdin Monday, but Yelena Solovyova says all she sees is a reign of insanity in the Kremlin

MOSCOW ( CP ) -- Boris Yeltsin called on Russians to "accept and support" his decision....

The miners have been living in a ramshackle tent village, just outside the white granite-and-glass government headquarters, living on gifts of food and cigarettes from sympathetic Muscovites.

They now say they will not leave until Yeltsin does.

"A fish rots from the head down," said Valentin Drachenko, 49, another of the protesters. "As long as Yeltsin is president our misery will continue. I will not go home to my family until I can tell them the bastard is gone."

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:50 - ID#257148)
too early for translations for me.... need coffee

Victoria Dei Gra Britt Regina Fid Def Ind Imp means
Victoira, by the grace of God Queen of Brittain, defender of the faith, Empress of India

you have the old french a little wrong it is

honi soit qui mal y pense and means
evil on he who thinks evil

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:52 - ID#229207)
This week, Barron's Online
August 24, 1998

Great Fall of China
Politics and economics point to devaluation of the yuan

By Neil A. Martin

Like China's Great Wall, its currency, the yuan, has stood firm while currencies around the globe have fallen like so many dominoes, starting with Thailand's baht in mid-1997 and continuing to the Russian ruble last week. But notwithstanding official denials, China is likely to follow the same path, bringing the Hong Kong dollar along with it. And the decision will be motivated as much by politics as by economics.

China, unlike Russia and most other victims of the Asian flu, does not exhibit the same symptoms of a crumbling domestic financial system and a heavy dependence on foreign hot money, which have sent currencies reeling as much as 82% in the case of the Indonesian rupiah. Part of China's immunity reflects its still-large trade surplus ( $26.7 billion for the seven months to the end of July ) and huge foreign-exchange reserves of $140 billion. And it also owes much to the fact that the yuan ( also called the remnimbi ) is not fully convertible into other currencies. Nevertheless, the yuan's value in the black markets on the streets of Shanghai, Beijing and other major cities fell about 10% following the recent devaluation of Vietnam's currency, the dong.

According to one foreign analyst in Shanghai, the city's black market is still bustling with illegal currency dealings with the yuan trading at around 9.0 to the dollar, versus the official rate of 8.27, and would weaken further in the weeks ahead. Chinese companies with overseas operations also reportedly are refusing to repatriate foreign earnings for fear of an imminent yuan devaluation. Others reportedly are sneaking dollars out of the country to European banks through Hong Kong. A recent report by ING Barings' Hong Kong office noted an unexplained $400 million drop in China's foreign exchange reserves at the end of June. Given the trade surplus and direct foreign investment, the report notes, "simple arithmetic would suggest that $30 billion leaked out of the country in the first half, the most since 1978."

"There are all kinds of reports and rumors about dollar hoarding and capital flight that are keeping devaluation fears alive and the money changers busy," the Shanghai analyst says. "People are really convinced the yuan is going to be devalued."

And so they should be.

Despite repeated promises by Chinese authorities not to devalue their currency, a growing number of foreign analysts and China watchers believe they will have little choice if the country's economy -- and exports, which account for about 20% of China's gross domestic product -- continue to deteriorate. They predict that a combination of international and domestic pressures, ranging from the impact of Japan's weakening yen to rising unemployment in China, will force Beijing to devalue its currency by 15%-20% within the next six months.

"China's between a rock and a hard place," says Michael J. Taylor, chief economist with Indosuez W.I. Carr in Hong Kong, who is predicting a 20% devaluation by January. "It needs a healthy export sector to help finance its reform program, keep the economy humming and absorb the increasing unemployment created by the shutdown of state-owned enterprises," he explains. "But unfortunately, Chinese companies are operating in a deflationary global environment in which they have to run just to stand still and maintain current market share."

"It is not so much whether or not to devalue but how to keep enough growth in the economy to prevent unemployment from getting worse and to avoid undermining social stability," says Albert Edwards, global strategist with Dresdner Kleinwort Benson in London. "They are acutely aware of the Romanian model of political-economic transition," he quips, referring to the 1989 execution of Nicolae Ceausescu, Romania's president during the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s. "If growth is insufficient to keep them in power, they will start pulling out all the levers, including devaluation."

As if to underscore this, media reports recently quoted the head of China's largest shipbuilder, Dalian New Shipyard, as saying that at least a 20% devaluation would be necessary for exporters like his company to maintain employment and remain competitive in international markets. Barring that, the alternative, he warned, would be a risk of worker unrest and economic instability. China last devalued its currency in January 1994, when it ended its dual system for domestic and international transactions. The yuan immediately slipped by 33% against the dollar and within nine months declined by 50%, but has remained fixed ever since. China's Premier Zhu Rongji was the country's chief economic planner at that time, and analysts say he well remembers the sharp boost to industrial production and exports that followed that devaluation.

The decline in other Asian currencies has produced an effective upward revaluation of the Chinese yuan. Now it has to fall to catch up.

China's economy today is in the grips of deflation; retail sales were down 3.25% in the 12 months ended June and industrial production is declining. Most analysts forecast economic growth of 6%-7% this year, well below the government's 8% target, and warn that it could slump as low as 5% from last year's 8.8% pace.

But those seemingly robust numbers obscure the economy's difficulties. Much of production is piling up as inventories. More than half the country's state enterprises are unprofitable and many more are debt-ridden, but are being kept alive to provide jobs. Still, unemployment is rising rapidly, and in some regions may be twice the 20% level generally acknowledged for China as a whole. That's even before the current disastrous floods.

While Chinese officials say they wouldn't devalue unless the yen were to continue to weaken, Japan's current situation provides little confidence on that score. With the Japanese government still apparently unable to come to grips with the nation's banking crisis and ongoing recession, consensus forecasts call for further weakening of the yen, to 160 to the dollar by year-end and to 170 next year, from 143 at present, itself a decline of over 20% in the past year. Beijing cast a no-confidence vote by dumping a significant portion of its yen foreign-exchange reserves -- right around the time it was exhorting Washington and Tokyo to prop up the Japanese currency.

Naturally, any devaluation of the yuan would raise questions about its sister currency, the Hong Kong dollar, whose value is fixed versus the U.S. dollar. Some analysts believe the impact on currencies and stock markets in the region would be minimal, arguing that both are already at rock-bottom levels. "Markets in the region seem to have already priced that in to their valuations," says Gregory Fossedal, president of the Emerging Markets Group, a research and investment-management firm based in Arlington, Va. "But Hong Kong is a different question," he continues. "Fundamentals will bring pressure on the peg, but monetary authorities will try to hold out, which may not necessarily be the best strategy."

Even more disturbing are fears that China's continuing economic problems could force a premature end to Beijing's schizophrenic "one country, two systems" policy that tries to package communism and democracy, free-market and planned economics in a single state. Some critics have long argued this was a ploy by Beijing to allay Western fears about the future of the former British colony after it was returned to China in July 1997. "If there is anything that we know will never happen in China, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, it is 'one country, two systems,' " says Emerging Markets' Fossedal.

That would hold equally for currencies as well as politics.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:53 - ID#384350)
There appears to be little difference between the Left and Right in most countries these days as both political parties push the UN agenda. Like in France both Chirac and Jospin supporting the EMU, and thus the end of French sovereignty. As the National Front is for a Sovereign France, Chirac wouldn't support them anyhow.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:53 - ID#43349)
This is your Captain speaking...
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, we will be landing in a few minutes. Speaking on behalf of myself, the crew, and the staff at Gollum Airlines, I would like to say we very much enjoyed having you on our special scenic cruise today. Please watch your step as you disembark.

For those wishing to book further flights the ticket office will be open until five. Any of you who had bags and parcels other than carry on will find your luggage arriveing shortly on concourse "C".

Have a safe trip home.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 15:54 - ID#372262)

Queen of Britain by the grace of God, Defender of the Faith

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:02 - ID#229207)
Japan's Okura Files for Bankruptcy
Blames Collapse on Asset Inflation

Dow Jones Newswires

TOKYO -- Japan's recession claimed another victim Friday as Okura & Co. filed for bankruptcy, the third-largest corporate failure this year in terms of liabilities.

Okura blamed its collapse on the failure of the new businesses it entered during the "bubble" era of asset inflation a decade ago, including real estate. It also cited valuation losses on securities holdings amid the long-term drop in Japanese stock prices.

The 87-year-old company leaves debts of 257.7 billion yen ( $1.8 billion ) , including guaranteed debts of 43.4 billion yen and nonperforming assets of 98 billion yen.

Okura, a medium-size trading company which specialized in steel and machinery, desperately tried to stay afloat. It sought merger partners, asked shareholders for 10 billion yen in fresh capital and requested the support of its lenders and customers so it could restructure.

But worries about its viability made the company's lenders reluctant to increase their exposure -- especially with many already burdened by bad debts and given the Finance Ministry's stricter balance sheet requirements. Indeed, banks pressed Okura to pay back about 15 billion yen of loans in the last nine months and were hesitant to extend new loans, Yoshihiko Okura, the company's president, said.

'The Worst Ending'

"This is the worst ending," he said. "I hope this is a nightmare ... but it is reality."

Okura is the fourth failure among listed companies this year, following Daido Concrete Co., Mitsui Wharf Co. and Asakawagumi Co. In July, Japanese corporate bankruptcies rose 36% from the year earlier to 1,710 cases, the highest number recorded in any July since World War II, private credit research agency Teikoku Databank Ltd. said. The number of bankruptcies is expected to continue growing at a record pace, Teikoku said.

Although Okura's liabilities were below its assets on a parent basis as of March, consolidated liabilities exceeded its assets by 6.94 billion yen. As of March 31, Okura's consolidated debts totaled 288.3 billion yen.

Okura's business performance has been poor. Okura generated a parent-only operating profit of 3.71 billion yen, on sales totaling 368.29 billion yen for the year ended March 31. However, it suffered a net loss of about 8.79 billion yen, the sixth year in a row of losses. The parent company's accumulated losses amounted to 11.9 billion yen.

Cash Shortage

In early August, Okura officials said the company suffered a cash shortage of several billion yen on July 31 as a "Western" company -- to which Okura planned to sell or lease aircraft -- didn't make payments as scheduled. The officials didn't identify the company.

Okura then asked steelmaking customers to accept delays in payments, but some refused and stopped supplying steel products to the company, the officials said. Mr. Okura said Friday that this accelerated the calling back of loans by banks, causing an insurmountable cash shortage. To survive, he said, Okura had been in merger talks with two or three companies, which he declined to name.

The company also asked shareholders to inject fresh capital of 10 billion yen via a third-party allocation of new share issues. Major shareholders include Taisei Corp., Chiyoda Mutual Life Insurance Co. and Okura's main bank Fuji Bank Ltd.

But with so many negative factors surrounding the company, Mr. Okura said it was unable to work out a merger or a support scheme with its shareholders and lenders.

Trade in Shares Suspended

On the Tokyo Stock Exchange Thursday, Okura's shares rose closed at 65 yen, after reaching a record low of 51 yen Wednesday. Friday trade was suspended and the Tokyo bourse delisted the shares on Saturday.

Fuji Bank and Taisei both played down the impact of Okura's failure on their operations.

Fuji Bank said it has extended 38 billion yen in loans to Okura, of which 15 billion yen to 20 billion yen may be irrecoverable. The bank said the collapse doesn't change its earnings forecast for this year.

Taisei said the bankruptcy won't have an impact on its operations, even though the general contractor buys "several hundred million yen" of steel products from Okura each month.

Copyright  1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:05 - ID#335190)
Meeting on 21 August, the Duma approved a non-binding
resolution asking Yeltsin to step down. Interfax reported that
support for the resolution came primarily from the Agrarian
faction, the Communist Party, Yabloko, and the People's Power
faction. Head of the Our Home is Russia faction, Aleksandr
Shokhin, told ITAR-TASS on 21 August that his faction opposes
Yeltsin's resignation but favored Kirienko's replacement. JAC

The Duma also issued a statement charging the U.S. of weakening
the UN and unleashing a regional arms race with its air strikes on
selected targets in Afghanistan and Sudan, according to Interfax.
In a statement supported by 264 deputies and opposed by only
one, the Duma noted that the U.S.'s action made a thorough
review of the START-2 agreement all the more pressing. JAC

With regard to economic policy issues, the Duma on 21 August
proposed suspending privatization efforts, obliging exporters with
tax debts to sell their foreign exchange revenues to the government
at a fixed rate, nationalizing banks, and introducing outside
management of those institutions as well as tighter credit controls,
Interfax reported. On 24 August, ITAR-TASS reported that the
Duma Council will meet to set the legislature's agenda for the 25
and 26 August, when the lower house is scheduled to discuss a
variety of economic stabilization bills. JAC

Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma met with U.S. Senator
Richard Lugar in Kyiv on 23 August to discuss U.S. assistance to
Ukraine's nuclear disarmament program. Kuchma noted that U.S.
funds to assist Ukraine in destroying missile silos are being
transferred "on time," but he complained that the money allocated
for recultivating the land around the former silos is not, AP
reported. Lugar, who along with Senator Sam Nunn, initiated a
U.S. aid program to former Soviet republics to eliminate their
nuclear arsenals, pledged continued economic aid to Ukraine and
praised Kyiv for its support of the recent U.S. attacks in Sudan
and Afghanistan. JM

IMF Managing Director Michel Camdessus told Kuchma in a
telephone conversation on 22 August that he expects the IMF to
soon approve a $2.2 billion loan to Ukraine, AP reported.
Camdessus assured the Ukrainian president that the fund supports
Ukraine's economic reforms. The IMF loan is widely expected to
stabilize Ukraine's financial market in the wake of Russia's financial
crisis. JM

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:09 - ID#384350)
Golden Prophet, Aurator - Thanks
Aurator, just doing my part to get your brain working in the morning. You're right it is, Honi soit qui mal y pense. It's sometimes hard to see where a phrase starts when it's in a circle. I suppose my translation wasn't too far off.

I must say, it is interesting how you get Great Britain from Dei Gratia Britanniarum.

Also these coins have lots of lions on them. Wasn't that a symbol of King Salomon or someone?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:11 - ID#288186)
COMEX METAL WAREHOUSE TOTALS... also, see comments in post.
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Aug. 24

Gold 894,503 - 2,411 troy ounces
Silver 79,080,047 + 638,432 troy ounces
Copper 58,273 + 113 short tons

As you see, there was 2,411 oz's removed from totals, but there
was also an adjustment to the total. At the Morgan Guaranty Depository,
there was 32,175 oz's transferred from registered to eligibles. That means an over-all total of 29,764 oz's added to eligible stocks. Not what
we want...We want it the other way...

As for Silver, it shows that 638,432 oz's were added to the eligibles ( and
thus the totals ) but there was also an adjustment made. There was 559,274
oz's moved from eligibles to registered!
This means an actual increase of only 79,158 oz's added to the eligibles!
Again, it appears on the surface, that Comex silver has increased their
stocks considerably when looking at totals. Thus, a trader just glancing
at Comex totals would assume that roughly 638k was added to eligible Silver that day!
In conclusion, you definitely have to look at any adjustments from eligibles to registered, to get the whole picture! At least, it worked to
our benefit today, for Silver. Gold was a different story. We went from
registered to eligible on about 32k oz's. That's all...Foxman

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:15 - ID#153102)
Your words are precisely on point. The Christian diety has never compelled obedience. The King did. Now, we have government compelling performance under strict liability to statutes cooked up by legislative mobs worshipping Vox Populi. The heritage of common law which was founded on consent is inaccesible to virtually all today though it remains the foundation of all law in America.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:15 - ID#212197)
@ mozel and a.j. Yes, I think now after reading your replies that...
my 15:10 was more a contribution to confusion than clarification.

It's probably my own historical background as a German which causes easily a kind of overprojection when I read about religion and power.

Do you know that one of the first things which Adolf Hitler did, after coming to power in Germany, was to sign the Concordat with the Vatican? The essence of this Concordat was that the state had to collect Church taxes for the Catholic and Protestant Churches. No attempt was ever made by following regimes to change this wonderful achievement until today.

But that's not the only association which comes up when I'm reminded of the "Judaeo-Christian" traditions. The historic burden which I feel goes back much further. It probably has to do with the introduction by brute force of Christianity to almost all the Germanic tribes by Karl the "Great" ( who is also called the butcher of the Saxons ) .

Please take what I said in my 15:10 as something a little bit misplaced and more inspired by projections rather than the ability to see the world outside of myself as it really is. But it should tell you a lot about my cultural background and therefore might carry some value.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:19 - ID#229207)
Tokyo's Blue-Chip Stocks
Track U.S. Share Prices

Decided the great American bull market is over? Don't forget to dump those Japanese blue-chip stocks, as well.

Despite Japan's weak stock market overall, shares of top-flight Japanese multinational companies have in recent years moved in tandem with their U.S. brethren as the U.S. market has made its historic run.

This is no coincidence. Companies like Honda, Sony, Toyota and Canon share many of the strengths that have made companies like Coca-Cola, Gillette and Boeing mainstays of the U.S. bull market. They are tough, efficient competitors. They're strong in the all-important U.S. market -- and strong most everywhere else, as well. Increasingly, they're even owned by the same investors: U.S. mutual funds and other foreign institutional investors.

This has led shares of these companies to track the breathtaking performance of the U.S. market almost in lock step. Honda shares, for example, have more than quadrupled since 1995. Sony shares have more than tripled. Toyota shares have doubled. That has made them star performers in Japan, and helped keep the Nikkei Stock Average hovering between 15000 and 20000 points for most of the past five years in stead of far lower.

"The only thing that stands between us and 12000 is the fact that the blue chips have doubled and tripled and quadrupled in the last four years," says Ken Okamura, an equity strategist with Dresdner Kleinwort Benson ( Asia ) .

Double-Edged Sword

But for investors who have flocked into these shares -- the loosely defined group encompasses several dozen companies, including many high-tech firms like Tokyo Electron -- their tendency to track New York's Dow Jones Industrial Average has turned into a double-edged sword. Just as doubts have emerged over U.S. multinationals, so have they cropped up with Japanese blue-chip exporters. And for the same reasons: the Asian crisis is cutting into profits, financial turmoil in Russia is creating uncertainty world-wide and concerns are growing that the all-important U.S. economic engine could falter.

Last month, Sony's earnings announcement for the quarter ended June 30 provided one of the first reality checks. Operating profit fell 4.9% and would have been much worse if the yen hadn't weakened during the period. The company was particularly hard-hit by falling prices of its products, a direct result of the massive supply glut that has resulted from the economic downturn in Asia. In other words, these are the same sorts of concerns dogging many U.S. blue-chip stocks. Sony's share price has fallen more than 9% since then.

Japanese blue-chip shares continue to take their cues from Wall Street. Sony shares, for example, dropped as much as 14% when the Dow industrials stumbled over the past few weeks. But when the U.S. market firmed up, Sony shares recovered along with most other shares of top exporters. They fell 6.7% to 11,850 yen ( $82.79 ) on Friday, a drop of 850 yen, after the Dow shed nearly 1% on Thursday. Honda rose 3.2% to 5,210 yen, up 170 yen, while Toyota fell 1.2%, or 40 yen, to 3,290 yen.

Of course, some investors are sticking with the Japanese multinationals, figuring that among Japanese stocks they still offer the best bet available even if the Dow industrials stumble. Others who are holding on hope that shares of U.S. multinationals will regain their legs, thus lending support to Japanese blue-chip shares. But others have already started the search for alternatives.

Small-Cap Values

"We're just finding better fundamentals and better value in the small caps these days," says Alex Muromcew, a fund manager with Nicholas Applegate who handles both large-cap and small-cap Japanese stocks. "The Nifty Fifty have run out of steam."

Mr. Muromcew looks for companies that are positioned to take advantage of niche markets, deregulation or new technologies. Those kinds of firms stand the best chance of growing even if Japan's economy continues to stagnate, he says. He likes software companies such as Softbank, which is active in the growing Internet market. Another company that fits the bill is Cresco, which specializes in developing software and computer operating systems for home appliances.

Mr. Okamura suggests broadening from the multinationals on a "stock-by-stock" basis by looking for companies with strong earnings momentum or ones that are resolving cyclical or structural problems with their businesses. For example, Hosiden, a maker of liquid crystal displays, may benefit from a drop in LCD production among Korean manufacturers at a time when LCD demand remains relatively strong. Another approach is to look for small companies with strong balance sheets, such as Aida Engineering, which could benefit from a rebound in the economy.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:20 - ID#335190)
LIKE "What the hell information could Canada give USofA" @ USofA "AT WAR" Good for whom!
August 24, 1998

Clinton sees escalating battle, gets Republican support

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The U.S. administration is warning of an escalating battle against terrorism, even as Republicans put aside their criticisms of President Bill Clinton to support last week's missile attacks against suspected terrorist sites.

"This is a scourge that we are dealing with today, we are likely to deal with it tomorrow, and we will likely face the kind of terrorism that could use chemical and biological weapons, as well," Defence Secretary William Cohen said Sunday.

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright also repeated the pro-active stance the administration has stressed since last Thursday's attacks in Sudan and Afghanistan.

"We believe that we have a legal right to self-defence," she said on ABC's This Week. The United States will seek the co-operation of its friends, she said, but "we will take unilateral action when we think that our national interest has been threatened."

"What bin Laden did was an act of war," Pennsylvania Republican Senator Arlen Specter, agreed. "When you're at war it's not assassination." We are at war with terrorism," he said on Fox News Sunday.

Meanwhile, Axworthy said officials have been asked to take a look at security at Canadian embassies around the world and develop co-operation with other countries on monitoring terrorist activity.

"The primary issue for us is one clearly of sharing information," Axworthy said. "I think we have to be conscious of the fact that Canada could potentially be used as a staging area. ... We have to work very closely together with other concerned countries."

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:20 - ID#286249)
6Pak--How in the world do they get AWAY with this?
Statement by Harold J. Johnson, Jr. Associate Director, International Relations and Trade Issues,
National Security and International Affairs Division General Accounting Office before the Joint Economic Committee United States Congress
Thursday, July 23, 1998 International Monetary Fund: Observations on Its Financial ConditionAvailability of IMF's Currency Holdings [Excerpts]

There are several steps involved in calculating the amount of resources IMF has readily available for operations. First, IMF calculates the amount of currency holdings from quotas, which was estimated to be about $195 billion as of July 20, 1998. HOWEVER, ONLY THE CURRENCIES OF MEMBERS WITH SUFFICIENTLY STRONG BALANCE OF PAYMENTS  are used or usable by IMF for financing its transactions and are included in its operational budget, which is a nonpublic.

COMMENT: How, pray tell, can they be lending USD?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:25 - ID#39862)
Avalon (Haggis) ...........

The sad fact about life, is that there are "Nutters" and "Sickos" everywhere..........

It really is a pity that "most" of them end up as politicians ?!

A SIGN of our times..... OUTSIDE a Bank: "Buy GOLD now, pay later"....

ALMOST like getting married ?!

OR, is this like the Stock Market:.... TO avoid burning your hands with hot water, feel the water first before putting your hands in ?!

OR,...... FINANCIER's brochure: Now you can borrow enough money to get completely out of debt ?!

OR,.... GOLD prices subject to change according to Bankers attitude ?!

It makes you wonder.......

Och aye the no..................

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:25 - ID#293211)
NYC has largest jewish population in world
Lets suppose that NYC is Bin Ladens #1 target and that he has purchased six backpack nukes. What amount of gold and silver is stored in NYC and if its lost is effected what would be the effect on POG/S?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:27 - ID#246224)
Saw your request from the other day. I'll comb through my telephone bills to find the number. I think they were out of Nebraska somewhere or other.

Do you need 25KVA, have you got a PTO that will deliver 50 HP?

In terms of household use this may be a bit of overkill and waste of fuel. But I suppose that if you were running a farm, or spinning down a farm operation, then that would do it.

I feel strongly that a small gasoline generator, a few golf cart ( deep cycle ) type batteries and a decent size inverter would do very well for typical low level, extended period domestic usage. Just keep from discharging those batteries below 94% and they will last a good long time.

Energy-wise I'm leaning to propane for cooking and hot water ( on demand unit ) and some lights. Electrical for motor driven stuff which is to convenient not to use ( 12 volt pump to pressurize from a cistern ) . Wood for general heating. Desiel for tractor and genset. Even thinking of getting a little golf cart to tooling about the neighborhood ( with small generator for booster charge ) . Am forgetting about cars for now.

What's yer plan?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:29 - ID#426220)
Inger Market Letter

Veteran analyst and longtime survivor of numerous Bear Markets,
the venerable Gene Inger, again performs exploratory surgery on
the stock market to determine its prognosis.

In addition to to his usual total market survey, he looks into the impact of Washington's "Necktie Party" and the "Monica-circus --
Very entertaining and relevant to Wall Street's illusions & delusions.

For Inger's latest analytical & informative views, see the URL below
it's necessary to delete letters "en" in word "golden" before posting to
the Internet:

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:30 - ID#252150)
Wealth @ What wealth? I've read several posts on reasons for the great wealth
of the U.S. How can a Country that is 5 trilion in debt be described as wealthy? Besides that, 92% of the wealth is controlled by 5% of the population.Another example of the brain dead & semi-comotose believing everything that their USG/industry controlled media spews out to them.

When the IOUs come due & the masses can't have beer & pizza while they watch World Federation Wrestling, all hell will break loose.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:37 - ID#246224)
Rules are for keeping people you don't want in, out. They are for using against your enemies. They are for show, to show how important or secure one is.

The only game in town, now, is the debt instrument of choice, the USD. Certainly these people ride a multi-headed beast. But can they continue to ride without being thrown down and eaten alive. I doubt it. Things have just gotten to out of control. No one is in control .. a true white knuckle affair, the which you can only see is their rattling tonsiles, jowles and teeth as they scream on the way down...... !!!

I have it on good authority that the panics will begin September 14th ( or that week ) . Till then we wait.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:39 - ID#258142)
Oris, regarding our yesterday talks about appointment of Chernomyrdin
Small research shows the following. This move was organized by B. Beresovsky teaming with some smaller guys. In was done via Umashev and daughter of Yeltsin. The whole case was ripe more then a week ago, but they let the guy release ruble / dollar first. Regards

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:40 - ID#39862)
James (Wealth @ What wealth? I've read several posts on reasons for the great wealth)

It is a SAD FACT OF LIFE, that the US economy would appear to be only able to survive by generating a "WAR"............

Nothing like a "good" old war.

So, take your partners for the next one, who is it going to be:...

International Terrorism, sounds good to me..... "we" can selectively pick on anywhere in the Third World, OR if all else fails there is ALWAYS Iraq , or Iran, or Afghanistan, or...... the list IS endless.

I hear the Bill Clinton is to run for a third term as President ??

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:41 - ID#426220)

REF: "Marshall ( NYC has largest jewish population in world )
Lets suppose that NYC is Bin Ladens #1 target and that he has purchased six backpack nukes. What amount of gold and silver is stored in NYC and if its lost is effected what would be the effect on POG/S?

Not only is most of the US Governement GOLD stored in the underground vaults of the Federal Reserve Bank in New York, but
it also has on deposit much gold owned my many countries in the
world. they do this principally for two reasons. The FRB in NY
operates as a convenient clearing house for bullion movements
( gold bullion bars are move from one country's pile on the floor
to the other country's pile on the floor ) . Much of it is stacked
on the floor due to its crushing weight. Remember one cubic foot
of gold weighs more than half a ton ( right at 1,100 pounds ) . The
other reason the FRB has this distiction is for safe-keeping.
many third world countries might be hard pressed to protect
their gold against heavily armed theft. Besides there isn't any
international or domestic insurance company who would assume
the risk.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:47 - ID#384350)
SDR'er, 6 pak, IMF reserves
I read in the Richebacher Letter late last year that a large part of IMF reserves are bogus as they are not in "hard currencies" ( perhaps they are in Mexican pesos or East Carribean dollars ) . I can't quite remember the numbers, but I think it was something like only $50 Billion of $200 Billion was in hard currency, and this was before all the Asian commitments. Richebacher said that there wasn't enough money to go around.

Notice when the IMF always announces a big bailout, it gives the money in much smaller installments, as if the mere announcement will restore calm. The IMF is low on hard currency, and this charade can't go on for much longer.

Les jeux sont faits.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:47 - ID#254269)
Don't you ever sleep ? Have you ever tried to find an honest banker ?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:51 - ID#254269)
Gianni, why do you think the IMF wants 18 BIG ONES from the US ?
Fortunately, the Monica spotlight is shining so brightly on WJC at present that he cannot get it through Congress.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:53 - ID#39862)


Technically not quite right, but you have a point !

Check out the facts:

"World Gold Deposits: a quantitative classification"
by, J J Bache
North Oxford Academic
ISBN 0 946536 08 2

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:59 - ID#293211)
How foolish to put all your eggs in one Basket
Bin Laden has been connected to the twin tower bombing, maybe this time he wonts
he wont miss his mark. Still a good time to buy some yellow god made money.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 16:59 - ID#254269)
Money and market pricing; interesting post in yesterday's paper

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:01 - ID#246224)
FRB NY, a modern day 'Temple of Diana'
In Ephesis, the Temple of Diana the Great was a precious metals repository unequalled in Asia Minor. The temple was built to be a shrine to Diana worship as well as the most heavily fortified gold depository in existence.

Today its ruins may be viewed on tour.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:02 - ID#384350)
Avalon, IMF funding
In addition to the Lewinsky affair, congress wanted some accounting of IMF operations before it committed any new funds. The IMF, like the Fed, refuses to be audited.

I have a sneaky suspicion that if the IMF wants $18 Billion they will get it one way or another, ie like the way the US gets money to fund its black operations ( euphamism for terrorism ) .

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:04 - ID#39862)
Avalon (IMF.)..............


Slick Bill sure does have a problem, with Congress that is... ?

Echos of Richard Nixon: "When you have got "them" by the BALLS, their hearts and minds will follow!"

So, who is call the tune to Slick Bill, because soemone sure does have him by the balls ?!

Spot a mans weakness, get him by the balls ( via Monica, of course ) , AND his mind sure will follow.........

It really is astounding that "ALL" these issues are surfacing ALL at once, culminating in the launch of the EURO.......

GOLD, GOLD, GOLD........who are the long time investors in GOLD, that is now a cartel ??????????

Och aye..........

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:11 - ID#242325)
Thinking the unthinkable
JP: In his latest Forbes column deflationist A Gary Shalling projects that long treasuries will be yielding 3% in a few years. This is even more extreme than your forecast of 4.5%.

In the David verusd Goliath battle of ben Liden verdus the US whom do you think the overwhelming majority of the world'd people will be rooting for? Now that Clinton is going after Ben Liden, we can expecty Ben Liden to reply in kind. Wonder what woulkd happen to the markets and POG if Ben Liden was to take out one or more high US officials.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:11 - ID#254269)
Haggis; You're not suggesting that those dastardly Europeans are behind
the Monica situation, are you ?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:12 - ID#347235)
Sorry ol'boy but it was Lyndon Johnson, referring to the South Vietnamese when the social workers were trying to win "the Hearts and Minds of the Montaignards. I was there at the time and all of us felt the same way.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:14 - ID#252391)
Boy the XAU closed on its A** ( behind ) . Looks like Arch Crawford was correct in his perdiction that metal and metal related would top on the 20th. Silver down, gold hanging on.

IF the XAU is any clue we are headed south tomorrow - and it has proven to be a good lead indicator.

Too early for precious metal investments - should own the GAP or Quaker Oats or Burlington Northern - sommething that's going up.

The bearishness on this board for anything but Y2K is so thick yet the only safe haven is the dollar and Gap stock - only two dollars from an all time high. We have been blinded by a religion here and have missed great opportunities waiting for the great bull in gold - great BULL is right.

I furthermore think many of us are falling for the Y2K snake oil salepeople who will tell you everything will crash but the floor. Anybody stop to think that the y2k tests being run may be faultly themselves . This y2k thing is a religion all its own, with posters that rant like religious fanatics. Frankly, I not so sure that going backwards about 20 years in computer technolgy would be such a bad idea. Of course I 'd miss the opporutunity here to communicate - in the abscense of conversation I'd just stick with GAP.

Wake me up please when the anti gold conspiracy is over.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:15 - ID#57232)
SDRer: Have you read Antony C. Sutton's book, 'The Gold War'? Interesting stuff about the IMF as an extension of the fiat currency crowd. Namely, the US Fed, Germany, France, and some others I forget -- G7, I think. In the 60's and 70's, the IMF, like now was heavily involved in exporting debt and indebtedness to keep the fiat currency system afloat. Somehow the BIS was able to put a stop to all of this, and put an end to the gold sales -- but it applied some incredible pressure on the US government before it could be stopped. AC Sutton knows what the IMF had on the USA, but he didn't say.
I think the IMF is just doing what it did before -- and somehow it has deeper pockets that you would expect it would have. Fortunately, recently it has run out of money, and Germany has refused to allow further gold sales, despite the urging of the USA.
Perhaps the best way of looking at the IMF ( IMHO only ) is that it reflects the essence of the fiat currency crowd. The mere fact that the IMF seems to be unable to supply money ( ie loans ) may be a sign that the worldwide fiat currency crowd ( New World Order? ) is broke. Why are they asking Congress for 18 billion US when they obviously have all sorts of devious ways to come up with cash to keep the ( fiat currency ) system afloat. Must be all of those devious sources have dried up.
Perhaps this is just one more argument to put all your assets into cash or something more secure -- and -- hunker down and wait for the storm to pass.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:16 - ID#433143)
I think most of kitco would indeed purchase radiation suits, airtanks, and a few metal detectors, and pick axes. heh we will then all proceed to NYC to metal detect for fragments.. or the spot where it tons of rubble are piled on top, then we will have to blast the remains of the bank. hehe the great kitco treasure hunt.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:17 - ID#39862)
Avalon (Haggis)....

It's 5:30 am here in Western Australia, time to get up and face the day.

A honest Banker ?

A Banker is an undertaker who has had a charisma bypass !

A Banker: even the "Oldest Profession" runs on a tight fiscal policy... when her regular client asked for credit, she said: "No way Bill, you are into me far too much already".

A Banker: always borrow money from a pessimist... he doesn't expect to get it back !

A Banker.... " money isn't everything, it isn't even enough !!!!!

Or, does this summarise a Bank: A Bank is an institution where you can borrow money, provided you can show sufficient evidence that you don't need it ?!

Or, last but not least.....

The difference between a wanker and a banker is that the wanker knows what he is doing !!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:21 - ID#39862)
JTF (IMF).........

What is the ISBN of Sutton's book ?


(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:27 - ID#57232)
'The Gold War'
Haggis: I will have to get the ISBN when I go home. I have been trying to reach Antony C. Sutton for some time now, to ask him a few questions. He is getting on in years, and recently published some more current books, none of which I can locate so far. He also had a Tucson ( Arizona? ) newsletter, but I have been unable to get the address.
Please try a Web search -- maybe you will be more successful with it than I. I think he would be a gold mine of information ( pardon the pun ) .

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:28 - ID#39862)
JTF (IMF)........

A point of interest, stating the obvious.....

When I worked as a Geologist in Zambia between 1975/78, it always struck me as to how could Zambia be on its arse, when it had all that copper and cobalt.....?

Mine and process in a local currency, and "allow" it to be sold by external interests in a "hard" currency via the London Metal Exchage...

Now, guess who Zambia wa in debt to ....... the IMF ! Still is I belive, some 25 years later........NEVER ENDING......

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:29 - ID#57232)
Erratum on my post about the Gold War
Sorry -- Antony C. Sutton said that the BIS had something on the USA, and stopped the insanity of the gold sales. I incorrectly said IMF.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:29 - ID#252391)
Further to the questions..
What would happen if ben Laden took out a couple of high ranking US officals or bombed an AMerican city - gold would go down, the dollar would rally and bonds would rise.

Further to y2k - why do I care if my computer doesn't know what time it is - I have a clock. Who cares if it doesn't know what day it is - I have a calendar ( with pretty pictures ) .

There I gave some of you y2k zealots something to get started with . . . .... Bart make room on the bandwidth.....

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:30 - ID#402131)
Mozel-re: Rem oil on guns
I have always used common motor oil and had no problems. I have no
idea where Rem oil would fit in quality wise

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:30 - ID#39862)
JTF ('The Gold War') .....

Much apppreciated....



(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:31 - ID#293211)
The temple of Artemis
Artemis--- so called by the Greeks and referred to as Diana by the Romans --- was
"... the great goddess worshipped among the heathen nations under various modifications.
Her most noted temple was at Ephesus.. it was build of shining marble.. supported by a
forest of columns. At the center.. stood a very ancient image of the goddess.. Behind
the shrine was a treasury..'the safest bank in Asia' where nations and kings stored
their most precious things" ( Source: Guide post Bible Dictionary, pg. 181 )

In Ephesus during Paul's time, the temple of Artemis was centered around money. And
jus as Artemis and her temple under went "various modifications" to become Diana of Rome,
she has continued those modifications throughout history up until this very day. Today,
as traders enter in the New York Stock Exchange ( NYSE ) --- the modern day temple of Artemis--
they must first pass a forest of towering pillars and across its marbled floors to get to
the center of the temple ( the trading floor ) where the image of Artemis ( money ) is being
traded. Here, in the treasury of trading, is "where nations and kings [store] their most
precious things ( paper investments of the world ) ."

In today's temple of Artemis ( the world's financial markets ) , "Demetrius" is represented
by 1 ) central banks ( US Federal Reserve, Bank of Japan, etc. ) 2 ) brokerage houses ( Merrill
Lynch, Goldman Sachs,etc. ) and 3 ) billionaire investors ( George Soros and the like ) . The
"craftsmen.. and workmen of similiar trades" are represented by the common every day
investment traders ( stock brokers, bond traders, etc. ) .

Today, just like in Paul's day, investment traders ( Demetrius and the craftsmen ) are
bringing in record volumes of money, "no little business," through the trading activities
in and around the temple of Artemis ( investment exchanges ) . We must also note that their
prosperity depends upon this business" and its continuation, and that they will stop at
nothing to keep it going.

In Ephesus, Paul shined the light of God's Word on Artemis, and the people were seeing
her for what she was --- the idol of a false god made with human hands. This caused her
followers to begin abandoning her, which caused the " of [Demetrius and the
craftsmen to] fall into disrepute..."

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:32 - ID#39862)
JTF (Erratum on my post about the Gold War) ....

Could it have been that the BIS stated that they would have "moved" gold from New York to Europe ?

POP, there goes that BUBBLE !!!!!!!!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:34 - ID#31876)
Clinton - A Short Biography - "From Hope to Hot Springs"
This should answer about his name before it became Clinton.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:39 - ID#39862)
jims (Further to the questions..)...

ben LADEN has been proven giulty, but only by the US media...... not necessarily by the facts ?

Think about it...IF that factory in the SUDAN had been making chemical weapons, would YOU walk over the debris of the site ? I think not, but alot of people sure are.... and living to tell the tale !

Media blitz........... lets create a war.... just a small one !

Wag, wag, spin, spin..... Bill Clinton IS Dustin Hoffman....

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:40 - ID#39857)
For WJC on how to run the country.
Focus on this, you trumped up uninitiated bully boy.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:42 - ID#290172)
Gianni Dioro, JTF-

The scam is writ large; what one finds difficult to accept is the Everglades of complicity. There is no voice raised, no question asked, no spark of righteous indignation, nor even of honest confusion
Not with a bangnot even with a whimper.

JTF@Sutton' Yes! Because you gave me the recommendation last
Sept/Oct ( which doesn't seem at all possible ) . Enjoyed it! My thanks.
{:- )

Gandalf the White
(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:43 - ID#433301)
Aeroplane Flights --Gollum and tricky
Gandalf may be considered by some to be "smarter" than others, BUT he can not FLY like Gollum and certainly is not able to read a crystal ball during the flight. Now Gollum, could you start a branch aeroline named XAU ? That area really needs your assistance, or shall we just shut dowm the golden carpet ride for a while ?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:48 - ID#31876)
Today's CRB Report on Precious Metals

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:48 - ID#39862)

You can tell that I'm not a Yank .....

LBJ..... and it seems like yesterday ?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:50 - ID#254269)
Graphic Material; Free Republic and Drudge sites are carrying various
stories about cigars. Warning, information may or may not be reliable.
and may be offensive to some. Sensitive Kitcoites are advised to be accompanied by their parents when they visit these sites.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:51 - ID#39862)

Being an "Old" European, you should know how the "Bhouys" work ?

Last January, I stated the BC would not have a "problem, if he did not have a "PROBLEM" !!

Now there is a difference between a "problem" and a "PROBLEM".

The "small" one is Monica, I wonder what the "BIG" one is ... the BIS ?!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:54 - ID#235251)
Do you know what prompts the numbers to move from eligible to registered or vice versa? Is there any correlation to options being called? Any enlightenment would be appreciated.



(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:54 - ID#238422)
Thanks, Delphi, it's interesting.
Poor Kirienko, should have known in the begining
what he is taking upon himself. Russians got no
money and a lot of imports in the store -
I expect sizeable ruble inflation through printing presses.
There are just no more "hard" reserves to stabilize ruble and
deadly shortage of liquidity, so what do you think?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:56 - ID#252127)
Fire in the hole

Dat wat Bill yell wen Moniker lit der cigar

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:57 - ID#347235)
No problem with you not knowing, after all its been a while even though I think I am still young EXCEPT when I do manual labor and the body rebels!!!! Shalom to you and yours

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:58 - ID#287312)
It's so hard to be a BEAR with so many positives
( 1 ) Equities market at three times historical P/E and profits falling.

( 2 ) Clinton's impeachment or resignation looming.

( 3 ) Potential war with Bin Laden.

( 4 ) Potential war with Iraq.

( 5 ) Potential war with Islam.

( 6 ) Trade deficit at record high.

( 7 ) World's currencies colapseing.

( 8 ) World markets colapseing.

( 9 ) Asian Bank failures

( 10 ) Russian default.

( 11 ) La Nina

( 12 ) Last but not least ( Y2K )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 17:58 - ID#39862)
Got to go........


You will never lead the band, if you can't face the music.......

See ya worries, she'll be right....failing all else, we will have to open up another GOLD mine !!

No bullshit........

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:00 - ID#347235)
Sorry in deference to your dictionary should have written "labour" HEE Hee Hee Har Har

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:01 - ID#39862)
Jack (Fire in the hole) ...

Question: was it HOT SEX, or was she just "smoking" ?????

If it was just "smoking", DID Bill say that he was trying to give "it" up, or was he "up" when he was trying to "give it" !!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:01 - ID#252150)
Haggis@War. I'm afraid that you're right. The only thing that can keep the
loathsome, bloated, obscene, parasite alive is the life blood of millions of helpless, powerless people, around the world.

Mr. Mick
(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:01 - ID#345321)
OLD GOLD, your 22:14 of last night, all 1,171 words of it, evaded the question....
thanks anyway.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:02 - ID#31876)
For All Homestake Stockholder's, Here's a Nice Looking Chart

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:03 - ID#39862)
GOT TO GO.........

....and find a GOLD mine !

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:06 - ID#254269)
Haggis; Find two. One for me, oh and while you're at it, one for tolly, one
for Studio, one for Donald, one for Silverbaron, one for aurator, one for Retired Soldier. Oh, you get the picture.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:08 - ID#258142)
Jims, 17:29
"What would happen if ben Laden took out a couple of high ranking US officials or bombed an American city" What would happen if any country, organisation or whoever in the world will bomb US territory and release a report later that the target was a factory, able to produce components of chemical weapons?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:10 - ID#252127)

Remember, he never inhaled, maybe the smell got to him. Then only they know if he kept it up, or even had it up.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:10 - ID#280214)
Would a few hundred Grains of Gold in the hands of each and every person
in our nations of the free {not just the US but others as well those aspiring thereto} contribute significantly to individual liberty? Would we if we could: exchange their paper notes for an equivalent and appropriate amount of Gold?

RE: Laws and government councils small & large to enforce them.
All laws are to coerce someone into doing or not doing something.
We have moved far beyond the restitution to the victim or victims family.
Often nowadays the victim is harmed even more my laws than by the person who originally caused them injury.

I emphatically agree with Alberich's 15:10 statement:
"Freedom oriented souls honor the devine within others and themselves and do not need the guidance of priests."

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:14 - ID#28994)
Do you think Monica inhaled...????????

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:18 - ID#147201)
Haggis your 17:28
I guess the IMF dictated the sales arrangements.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:25 - ID#258142)
Hi. The whole story with credibility is broken. Who rules Russia - was always a good question - but not such a screaming one as now. They will probably print some more paper money to survive for a couple of months more. I am not sure, that people can take the second hyperinflation. It can go wrong.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:27 - ID#147201)
Squirrel re gold in American hands
I have always thought, from experience, that Americans with gold in hand is as free as you can get.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:29 - ID#39862)
Jack (Haggis ).........

We could NEVER accuse Bill C of being a person who has "been there, done that"? Or could we ?

Maybe he has a different view of the world, and does he think to himself "done that, been there"....

" I have never had sex with THAT women".... perhaps he is a bit of a pervert, and only likes to watch?

If that is the case, YOU ALL HAVE A PROBLEM - he IS the President of the USA, a real "Dr Strangelove"....


Charlie, are you still interested in nuggets, my mate is back in town ?!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:32 - ID#17077)
@RUSSELL...responses to your previous post...
Date: Mon Aug 24 1998 14:30
russell__A ( Farfel - Hedge ) ID#370144:
Copyright  1998 russell__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I agree that gold is a hedge - but from what? Certainly a way to escape from a revolution or a court order or a pogrom with some of ones assets.

( No argument there ) .

Historically, it also has proven to be a hedge against inflation and also deflation of locally held currency.

( Historically, you may note that one of gold's main benefits is protection against global currency risk, with or without inflation )

What it is clearly shown lately however, is that it is not a general safe-haven anymore for ones assets.

( Actually, it has been a terrific safe haven for foreigner's assets...just ask the Koreans, Thai, Indonesians, Russians, etc. whether or not, if they could go back in time,they would choose converting all their assets to gold or to their respective native currencies? I am categorically certain they would choose conversion to GOLD ) .

The dollar is and will continue to be, as long as the dollar is strong relative to other currencies.

( No argument there...but with emphasis on your statement, "AS LONG AS THE DOLLAR IS STRONG RELATIVE TO OTHER CURRENCIES." ) .

In these particular times for Americans, gold is a dubious hedge, a failure as a safe-haven and finally a disasterous as an investment.

( No argument there...but with emphasis on your preposition, "IN THESE PARTICULAR TIMES" ( in which a corrupt American government has intervened in the financial markets regularly in order to create hyper-bubbles in the equities, bonds, and currency markets" ) .

When either inflation or a relatively weaker dollar appears, there will be plenty of time to shift into gold investments from a low level.

( Actually, Russell, I have argued numerous times that I believe we will see stagflation before we ever see a pure inflation or a pure deflation. I am certainly not alone in that prognostication. Stagflation is a pretty tricky economic phenomenon...hard to recognize at first glance. That is why Greenspan agonizes over the proper direction to take with respect to interest rate adjustments. He knows better than anyone that neither direction is a panacea to the developing American economic predicament. When stagflation appears, we can expect that the ONLY safe haven in America will be precious metals or maybe NON-mortgaged real estate. Period. Once the realization strikes Americans ( along with the resultant panic ) , I expect it will become readily apparent that, relative to the ensuing demand, there is absolutely NO abundance of gold and gold coinage in the land. Moreover, I can assure you that a gold retailer WILL NOT take your check and make gold available to you in such a panicky environment. No way! You better have a lot of cash on hand and a good relationship established with a gold outlet. At the same time, Gold stocks may slingshot upward with such force ( given the relatively tiny size of the entire investment sector ) that you might have to pay several hundreds percent more for a viable gold stock than what you would pay for it today. In other words, the aggregate demand should far outweigh the suppply ) .



(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:33 - ID#267276)
If it was a cuban cigar then it would be illegal.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:39 - ID#213219)
How does that song go?????

She had the whole world in her hands, the whole wide world in her hands????????

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:39 - ID#290202)

test... ( different browser )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:42 - ID#43349)
@Gandalf the White
In your ball of crystal look deep and see that with the leaves fall
Comes Zelem to pilot XAU up up and over all.....

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:53 - ID#31876)
A Page Full of Handy Financial Links
You might find some that you want to bookmark.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 18:57 - ID#252127)

Good question, duh.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:01 - ID#57232)
Delphi, Oris: I think the economic threat from Russia is mostly indirect, if the Russian people refuse to tolerate another wave on inflation. Namenly, what sort of leadership will form -- will it break up like Yugoslavia into little states? But -- this time some will have nuclear capability. Frightening thought. As Maybury said -- Chaostan --- is unfolding slowly infront of our eyes.

Did you both notice the current news about how the Russian nuclear provinces are now complaining that they did not get the full amount of relief funds from the US ( and ? ) to dismantle the missles? Sounds like nuclear blackmail to me -- a prelude perhaps to what will come later if things get worse.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:01 - ID#39857)
I've smoked Romeo and Juliets and not once
did I find an on/off switch or an eveready. Wouldnt the cigar
have exploded with an influx of moisture at moment of climax.?
Party tricks in the whitehouse, I suppose they practice
picking up champagne bottles too.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:06 - ID#374235)
Banks don't need the cash they're stockpiling for y2k.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:07 - ID#374235)
Name brand of Monica Cigar
Tampa X.

Tantalus Rex
(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:08 - ID#295111)
XAU Today
ABX-Barrick Gold-CLOSED AT $16.3750 -0.1875 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.23
ASL-Ashanti Gold-CLOSED AT $7.3750 -0.1875 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.07
BMG-Battle Mountain-CLOSED AT $4.8750 -0.0625 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.05
CDE-Coeur D'Alene-CLOSED AT $6.1250 0.0625 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.00
FCX-Freeport Mc-CLOSED AT $12.8125 0.0000 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.00
GGO-Getchell Gold-CLOSED AT $11.7500 -0.1875 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.02
HL-Hecla Mining-CLOSED AT $4.5625 0.0625 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.01
HM-Homestake Gold-CLOSED AT $10.7500 -0.4375 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.30
NEM-Newmont Mining-CLOSED AT $17.0000 -0.3750 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.19
PDG-PlacerDome Gold-CLOSED AT $10.1250 -0.2500 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) -0.20

XAU CLOSED AT 60.79 -0.87

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:11 - ID#34191)
10000 by 2000
A local stock broker on the local radio station told two rural counties that the stock market would go to 10,000 by y2k!

He is:

A. In denial

B. Dumb as a post

C. Out to sucker in a lot of commissions

D. More knowlegdable than all the kooks at Kitco

E. A,B, and C.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:18 - ID#280214)
Test (Test?!) re your last post and Y2K lines of credit
At the bottom is the statement:
"I could see a case where creditors won't extend a line of credit because of Y2K," said Wynne."
As of early December 1999 this small retail shopowner plans on collecting upon and clearing the books of accounts receivable and not extending any more credit until after Y2K - if all goes well. If Y2Kaos ensues then it will be a whole new game with rules made up as we go. Hopefully by then I will have liquified most of my inventory - except for Y2K necessities like food, ammo, kerosene lamps & cookers, Gold, Silver, etc.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:22 - ID#288295)

It ain't finding the mines that's the's convincing everybody else that thay ain't holdin' real THERE is a problem.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:24 - ID#31876)
Fort Worth's Bass Family Buys 678,700 Shares of FCX

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:42 - ID#252127)

One would think, that with other fiat down materially agaist the dollar, including the slow but appreciable fall in the European currencies over the past few years, plus the probable fall out of Russia still to hit European and world currencies, that gold would move, even with the fiat dollar going up.

There has to be behind the scenes manipulation from my perspective.

As was posted here earlier, our 5+ trillion dollar budget deficit not to mention another 11 trillion in off budget debt not to mention the interest; add an over priced stock market and personnel and corporate debt and one can say very little for for the safety of all fiat currencies.

Still gold doesn't move. I'm sure that it is manipulation.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:43 - ID#288295)

Smart puppies - they bought the preferred stock which is convertible based on the price of gold ( FCX preferred 'C'? )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:46 - ID#288229)


can you post the url for the rosthschild's history?? mine has gone astray
and the hubbly bubbly cannot find it....


(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:46 - ID#287312)
I figure it will be at least 20 years before
a mother names her daughter Monica.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:46 - ID#31876)
I was waiting for that response! Thanks.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:48 - ID#347447)
this n' that
DELPHI/ORIS: Brothers - Who rules Russia? 18:25. Unfortunately, the mafia rules Russia. There is barely a tacit agreement that the "official" government may survive.
This will be the trend as more nations collapse and their central authorities shrivel. Thanks be to the information age. But in the interim, clandestine gangster governments will compete for power, and indeed hold it already in many nations, including America. This is not spoken of by the media, or by pundits, but one has only to look at Colombia to see the extreme of this sorry trend. It will get worse before it gets better and citizens with integrity go to war - against complicit governments as well as explicit thugs.

JTF: Russians have NO choice. They cannot get "tired" of inflation - they can only suffer. They are pawns to be used and abused by government thugs and privatized privateers. As I said last year - it will take 2 generations before Russia has a chance of recovering its bearings, dignity, and hope.

COWGIRL: Sister - stocks to 10,000? Do not laugh. The current market smells like a bottom! S&P futures running over 2-1 puts to calls, New lows swamping new highs, a triple test of the lows is in, 19% bullish consensus on the Russel 2000 and small cap markets, the broad list already having corrected 20%, and an abc correction off the April general market highs in place. And, finally, the utiulities have bottomed and are ahead of all the other indexes on the rebound. They always lead a market move. We could be going higher again, and 10,000 will be a layup as we breeze past. The end will not come until stocks and gold are rising together, along with interest rates. And that has not even begun.
Perhaps I am also dumb as a post? Yes?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:51 - ID#374235)
Thanks for reading.

Of course the devil's in the details.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:52 - ID#288229)

chop-asaki mike.....chop-asaki.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:54 - ID#238422)
I agree completely, it makes no difference who rules...
Your point that next wave of inflation can be very
distructive is also very much correct...although at
THIS particular period of time Chermomyrdin's appointment
may help to cool down tensions, but not solve the problem...

I honestly don't know how they will solve the problem, but
hope they are not gonna shoot at each other...Russian nukes,
too many of them for "not-to-worry-be-happy" approach...

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:54 - ID#347447)
thanx cherokee
I am honored

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:55 - ID#200235)
Your local broker probably saw Scott Shepherd on NBR tonight. He is editor of Business WEAk ( correct spelling ) . He perdicted that the Dow will go to the moon early in the 21st century.

I consider that a very good contrarian indicator that the Dow will be in the low three digits by then using Business Weak' s past horrible record on calling for the death of equities in the early 90's

(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:57 - ID#411233)
1.--Gold is dead, and there isn't going to be a resurrection.
2.--The stock market is not going to crash, corrections on the way up are normal.
3.--Little Joe is not going to make large mutual fund redemptions, come
hell or high water.
4.-- Any scared money leaving the markets, is going into bonds, and if
they fall out of favor, back into GIC'S or term deposits.
5.--Little Joe would sooner keep his money in his pillow, than to invest in
6.--Business as usual, Jan 1--2000.
7.--People should not exceed the daily recommended dose, when taking
strong cold medication.
8.--And finally from Dylan ( Bob ) --"When they asked him why it had to be that way, well he answered JUST BECAUSE".


(Mon Aug 24 1998 19:59 - ID#248180)
Oris & All - Russia
Date: Mon Aug 24 1998 10:33
oris ( Junior ) ID#238422:
My guess is that Victor Chernomyrdin will start
printing a lot of rubles to bring liquidity into
the Russian industry. Don't know if this this
good or bad for your business, but I believe
you are much safer now with your Russian operations...

Don't know who is behind "Global Intelligent Report",
but their view on Russian situation is really far
from being accurate...
ORIS- Good day.

Printing of Rubles is on the cards. They must provide currency to Pensioners and Workers. They can stand further inflation in the system.
Russia currency system is more complex than realized. The US$, German Marks, and Ruble trade side by side. I can see the Euro playing an important future role. S. Hanke suggested Russia adopt the US$ as a single currency. I think they will adopt the EURO. I think the deal is done and already agreed by Yeltsin, Khol and Chirac months ago.

Mining business is safer. Business is safer. V.S.Chernomyrdin also has the support of Lebed and big business. Russia has always been about big business. When it was the USSR big business was safe. Westerners loved dealing with USSR. Simple contracts Big Western business direct to Big Soviet business. Life was simple then. Now we will see Oil & Gas deals settled by lower entry price into Russia fields and pipelines. Ruble printing will increase. Russia will play China, Japan and Europe against USA. Nuclear arsenal will/is used as a "strategic metal" for securing further loans.

Global Intelligence Report Service: Often provides much mis-information. Truth is salted and slanted. I call it FACTION a combination of Facts and Fiction. I think that they are part of CIA or FBI. The truth is always some where in the middle of a all extreme reports.
I will be gone for a day and signing off now. Cheers JR

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:02 - ID#238422)
Mike Sheller & JTF
Brother Mike, it's a very sad story....It's bad that
mafia rules Russia, it's good that Russia is still ruled
by ...whoever. Russia needs a ruler, otherwise JTF's concerns
may materialize...

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:05 - ID#209265)
Gianni - the origin of the name "Britain" . . .
has nothing to do with the Hebrew word B'rith ( Berith. ) B'rith means 'covenant' or 'agreement.' B'nai B'rith is a relatively recent organization, and the name means 'Sons of the Covenant,' referring to Genesis 15:18 and Genesis 17:2-10.

The Romans gave the name Britannia to the country and the name Britanni to the Celtic tribes living in what is now England.

The name was taken from the Celtic tribes living in the region of Gaul ( France ) that is now called Brittany ( Bretagne. ) These people spoke the same Celtic language as the tribes living in Britain ( Brythonic, very different from the westerly Gaelic ) considered them a kindred people and had extensive trade and social relations with them. The Romans considered them to be one people and traded with them extensively even before Caesar's expeditions of 55 and 54 BC, and the invasion of 43 AD.

The language of ancient times is still spoken in Wales, Cornwall and Bretagne, and folk festivals still occur with exchanges between the groups of people. Welsh groups will go and perform at Breton music festivals, for example. The language was spoke on the Isle of Man, but died out several decades ago. Over the millenia they have diverged, so that Welsh, Cornish and Breton seem different, but after an introduction to them it is clear that they are very close, and speakers of one dialect can learn the others very quickly.

After the Roman departure the Britons held on for about a century in the centre of Britain, but were eventually displaced by the Saxons, retaining their independence only in Wales, Cornwall, and the Isle of Man, where they were never 'ethnically cleansed' and retained their cultural identity even through the depradations of the Picts, the Irish, the Angles, the Vikings, and eventually the Normans.

- Steve

PS - a lot of writers suggest spurious derivations of names from similar-sounding words in other languages to support various racialist agendas or conspiracy theories. Apply Occam's Razor to all these speculations.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:05 - ID#26793)
Global meltdown posed nightmare scenario for the U.S.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:06 - ID#412286)
Chernomirdyn is an old communist just like Yeltsin. They will go back as easily as they came. Now they recognize that the coming econ catastrophe will make socialism look good plus adopt religion and side with Moslems. NOT STUPID!

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:10 - ID#347267)
The GM belwether broke the 200 day moving average today. Short term bounce is in the offing, then DOOWWWNNNN with the rest of the DOW and latter day nifty 50.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:13 - ID#412286)
Mike Sheller
Read the Perestroika Deception BY Anatoly Golitsyn a KGB defector. The Mafia as you understand it does not lead Russia. Read this book then read Leninist dogma and the Communist manifesto.Sorry!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:14 - ID#26793)
Argentine pension funds expect to report 7% loss for August alone

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:15 - ID#347267)
GM Chart
Fo'got to post it:

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:18 - ID#206235)
Overheard at White House
"I did not inhale" ( because I couldn't light the darn thing after Monica got done doing what I asked her to do to it! )

Cigar abuse, there oughtta be a law. Hmm, maybe there IS a law!


(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:19 - ID#412286)
Golitsyn Signal for turn back
Slow disintegration of relations with West. Knowing our politicians covet a good relation with the supposed conquered country/system. IMF anybody.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:21 - ID#206235)
@ Belgian Gold Sale called off
Just a rendundant repost from yesterday. The purported massive Gold sale by Belgium that we all heard about this past March, has been cancelled. The Bank of B, now plans to liquidate only 10 tons through the sale of Commem. coins.

The Gold market didn't see that big "New purchase" sending any message after all. The Gold market is currently "ASB", the stock market however, is NOT "ASB". Head fer the hills!


Charles Keeling
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:22 - ID#344225)
@ HEDGEHOG RE: Moisture contamination
Some very good & expensive cigars come in a glass
vial. Probably an excellent instrument for Monicas
use, and the cigar is still smokeable by WJC later...

I hope that Arafat didn't have to wait too long for WJC's
appearance. Now we all know why he is consistently late.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:23 - ID#209265)
Mike S., JTF et al. - Russia
reminds me of Germany prior to the Weimar Republic. Will they allow the devaluations to keep hurting the common folk, who are increasingly withdrawing their consent to be governed, or will they try to inflate their way out of the mess?

James Davidson made an interesting point that every hyperinflation in every country in the world has resulted in the overthow of the government responsible.

A colleague of mine who interacts extensively with Russian professionals says that the media aren't reporting the real mood of the Russian public. He says they're ready for Fascism. A hyperinflation would lead to another horrifying fiasco much like 1933-1945 IMHO.

What about a depression, or deflationary collapse, though? In the 30's many countries that experienced hyper-deflation rather than hyper-inflation turned to fascism too. Arguably, F.D. Roosevelt represented America's flirtation with Fascism during that period. I think that Russia will respond negatively to a collapse whether it comes from inflation or deflation.

People, the next war is gonna be a doozy. I think this is something that everyone should be creating long-term plans for starting this evening! I'm not sure that Y2k-style survivalism will be the answer either.

- Steve

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:23 - ID#347267)
S. Kaplan sez CRB index staged key reversal
Kaplan's "COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities began the day to the downside on Monday, with the CRB index initially hitting its lowest level since February 10, 1993, before turning around to end the day with a net gain, thus marking a bullish key reversal. The fact that commodities are holding above their critical uptrend line connecting the bottoms from 1986, 1992, and 1998 is a typical precursor to a rally. Precious metals closed mixed, with gold edging down 20 cents, silver falling 4.0 cents, platinum adding $2.40, and palladium rallying $3.00. COMEX gold futures open interest is extremely close to the 200,000 level from which strong rallies often begin ---"

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:23 - ID#206235)
@ Gargantuan Hurricane heading for East Coast
When Bill returns to work. I also hear there's a bad storm heading in too!


(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:26 - ID#210114)
Beaming in....

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:27 - ID#210114)
No Russian sales, but loans and swaps

London--Aug 24--Movements in gold's forward market and lease rates supports
market talk that Russia has lent or swapped a significant amount of the
metal recently, according to a report from Macquarie Equities analyst Kamal
Naqvi. By Miranda Maxwell, Bridge News, Story .1235

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:27 - ID#72316)
@ Steve in TO,, Fascism,, you mean like the US,,,
It is proving to be very successful

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:31 - ID#288295)
Leland @ FCX Preferreds

There may be more than one FCX gold-preferred convertible - I seem to recall a 'B" preferred also, but I don't remember the difference, if any. 'D" preferred convertible is based on the price of silver.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:33 - ID#206235)
Euro vs. dollar, what will prevail???
those who propose that the Euro is going to miraculously supplant the dollar as the worldwide currency, had best think again. First of all, the total meltdown in Russie does not bode well for the European bankers who have 79 Billion invested in Russia ( compared to U.S. 1 billion ) .

Then we can take a peek at where the money flowed during last weeks "Bear" equities moves. U.S. treasury's is where.

Then we can also consider the fact that the Euro will not even be a circulating currency until well into the next Millenium. ( It starts off as an electronic exchange medium ) .

While much hay has been made here about Gold backing, the fact is that the 15% reserves are not tied or locked to the Euro in a meaningful way at this point, and it remains to be seen if this will happen.

Last but not least, even if we head into worldwide depression, the U.S. economy will remain the strongest and healthiest in the world. The U.S. dollar will retain it's position, albest with minro competition from the Euro. When it comes to "paper burning", the U.S. dollar will not even get singed, let alone consumed.

Let's remember that even though the U.S. Buck is not backed by Gold, it IS backed by the strongest economy in the world, the most productive workers in the world, the most diversified industrial base in the world, the best "High technology" base in the world, the strongest military in the world, the best basket of natural resources in the world, and even a Govt. that holds by far the greatest stockpile of GOLD in the world!


(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:43 - ID#368244)

How does 5.5 trillon debt fit in your scenario ?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:45 - ID#288295)

For those who haven't seen George Ure's forecasts
based on market patterns in 1987 and 1929 - I urge
you to take a look - if the continues to be right,
you don't want to be holding any unhedged
positions in the U.S. ( and probably anywhere else )
stock markets after August.

Rising Sun
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:46 - ID#411331)
I found this link last year on Kitco.

Rising Sun
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:47 - ID#411331)

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:48 - ID#347447)
Brother ROR - I have read the Communist Manifesto. Please now do me, and yourself, the good turn of reading "Atlas Shrugged."

There is absolutely NO leadership in Russia today. There is NO economy. There is now only ownership of what was once called "the people's" property by thugs and goverment privateers. Russia is undergoing the privatization of government assets - not by the free market, but by the former bureaucrats and statist overseers, and their gangster masters and cohorts. There were 30,000 assassinations of business men last year in Russia. Guess who were the real businessmen and who were the thugs. This is a society that must implode and collapse, then fragment totally, before there will be a CHANCE at rengeneration. It does not make me happy to say this.

and the fault of all of this was decades of collectivism and insane control of the citizen by power hungry puppet masters. And NO, I have precious little more respect for the mixed economies of the "West" either. It will all get worse, everywhere, before it gets better.
Meanwhile, have a Vodka Martini on me. It does wonders for geopolitical angst!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:49 - ID#342376)
@ BugAl
LGB, You make some good points. The flip side is that everything has gone down vs the US$. That can't go on much more as the world would sink into a depression. My take is that once the US$ starts a downtrend, that trend will gain more and more momentum. Anti-American sentiment is building each day. Once the trend changes direction, everyone else in the world will secretly, if not openly, LOVE seeing the US$ go down the tubes. The EURO will be sucessful, IMHO, as a backlash against the US$.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:52 - ID#227238)
Brother Mike @20:48:
Hear! Hear! Da phai ..... and skoal, for good measure. On the day that ROR reads Atlas Shrugged, I will renounce the world and join a convent. .... or something.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:52 - ID#43349)
Ad noctum
A hurricane is something a person can understand. Eye wall, low pressure, fueled by waters warmed by the hot summer sun. Nature's fury with pseudo random violence, yet as orderly as the laws of physics which are it's master.

Why then, is it so hard for the media to understand the great maelstrom of the $US? As economies slow, foregin money moves toward the eye. Every yen, every rial, every ruble, every yuan that moves to safety is another lost to the local economy. Every one lost is another unit of slowing to prompt even more flight. It feeds on hot money.

Indonesia, Malaysia, Venezuela, Russia, Japan, China, each new name another toll of the bell. Do they think it just coincidence? Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, Europe, the beat goes on.

And now, now, they all come to depend upon the mighty machine, the out of control golem of finance we call the US economy to grind on and support the rest. To buy the wares and absorb the balance of trade. For if it doesn't, if there is the first glimmer of recession, then all will proceed into the dark eye.

The futile attempt to evade that evil orb takes on many forms. Some lower rates, some raise rates, some defend, some devalue. Yet the spiral contiues inward.

Rubin, Greenspan, and figures of great acumen pull here, prod there at controls that always worked before, but the currents grow stronger nonetheless. Inexorably, inextricably, relentlessly.

The power of it incomprehesible to the guardians of the system with each new tranche from the IMF sucked dry in a trice.

Far better if the bull had died years ago, died and been reborn, than to have lived and grown beyond control, beyond the laws of finance and global banking. Global bull begets global bear.

The poles in the tent are breaking one by one, the stakes are pulling from the ground, the winds are picking up.

One more brave rally, maybe two. Doomed to fail, but bravely sallied forth nonetheless.

They give hurricanes names. Why not banking storms?

In the Atlantic, Bonnie approaches the shore, but in the arena of finance, something more ominous perhaps is coming to The Street.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:55 - ID#209265)
Spock - I heard that the Swiss . . .
were helping Russia carry out its gold leasing and swaps.

- Steve

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:57 - ID#288295)
Mike Sheller & Earl @ Atlas Shrugged for ROR

The Atlas Shrugged audio tapes would be much less painful than reading all that tiny print, don't you think? I nearly went blind reading the paperback version.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:59 - ID#347447)
I think we would both enjoy a retreat at the Cao Dai temple in Tay Ninh City. Lovely place, all things considered. Not far from the Cambodian border. So peaceful.

Location, Location, Location!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 20:59 - ID#227238)
I never to fail to derive great pleasure from your insight. Well done. ..... and they call the wind "Maria"????

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:00 - ID#347447)
I'll read it to ROR myself!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:06 - ID#227238)
Great works should savored. 'Tis easier to lift the eye in contemplation than to search for the "pause" button. ..... I have read it twice. With 25 years between the initial and subsequent. It was as interesting on second reading as it was the first time. But then, it takes so little to engage a simple mind.

Remember what we were told, as children, about masterbation? ...... Just read until you need glasses. ..... {:- )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:06 - ID#412286)
Did you look at Golitsyn's book.

Charles Keeling
(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:07 - ID#344225)
@ Gollum RE: The coming storm
I loved it....The perfect answer to Buggy Al.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:09 - ID#347447)
No, but I will put it on my list, Thanks.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:10 - ID#57232)
DOW 10000
Mike Sheller: What do you think might be the driving force behind what may be the last great rally of the US markets?

1 ) AG lowers rates? By how much? 30 year rates go to 2-3%?

2 ) South America continues its meltdown -- escape to safety in the US markets?

3 ) Europe gets the jitters with Russian uncertainty?

4 ) WJC avoids impeachment? WJC resigns?

All of the above? All but item 4?

I find it hard to believe that you are right, unless WJC is able to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

Steve in TO__A
(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:10 - ID#209265)
Mike S. - concerning the chaos in . . .
Russia right now. It seems to me that the great mass of people in any coutry crave certainty more than anything else.

The people of Russia were willing to put up with decades of deprivation and slavery right up until the economy could no longer sustain itself- because they knew they would have a job, crummy as it was, and that they could eat, even if they might never eat well. It's the old trap of most people being willing to take a small, sure gain over the chance for a huge, uncertain gain that also has a chance of a loss.

- Steve

"Liberty means responsibility- that is why most men dread it"
- George Bernard Shaw

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:11 - ID#255151)
BUGal_A @ 20:33--Euro vs Dollar vs Gold

Agree with points made about the Euro vs the Dollar. Germany is a big loser in the Russian collapse, as you said. I am actually surprised at how well the German DAX has held up so far. The full effects on Germany will be hitting at about the time they give up their D Mark, and plunge into the Euro, in January 1999. That said, if the US dollar remains unsinged, then the smart move is to hold more US$ investments, and less Gold. I agree that the Dollar will suffer less than the Euro, the Yen, and the Yuan--for the reasons you mentioned. But I also think the US$ is vulnerable because of debt, leverage, and overvalued financial assets. Between the $ and Gold, I have to say-- Go Gold!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:11 - ID#210114)
Beaming up....
Live Long and Prosper

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:14 - ID#284255)
Who needs denial???
Y2k test results so far:
22 failed on RTC test. --- 90% failure rate.
2 Passed???
Best denial claim at the bottom of the list.

This presumedly will be a rude awakening to many about the reality of Y2k.
Also highlights how widespread the problem is.
How many PC's globally have this problem?
90% of 250,000,000???

Got GOLD yet?

sam --- I am compliant per zdnet y2k test!
STUDIO.R --- compliant. g'dayO!
Dave --- failed RTC and this is 98 p11 233....agp..ow....ow ow
Cowgirl__A --- ZDnet found my RTC failed 1/1/2000, passed the rest.
( ZDNET TEST ) --- Add another RTC failure. Still give a "compliant" result but leaves the obvious question, doesn't it?
RJ ---Ran the Y2K test. I failed 1/1/2000 but passed all later dates, such as 2/9/2001. Why is this? Huh?
Tyoung --- ( ...RTc test for Jan. failed , pass on everything else. )
Cage Rattler --- My IBM Thinkpad 760ED failed the RTC test
Jeremy --- The first four FAIL ( Testing RTC, BIOS, DOS, Windows date of 01/01/2000 )
mozel --- Failed in Jan, but passed all subsequent dates. Earlier ---mozel ( @Sharefin @PC Compliant )
Rack ---I ran the test ( I think, I'm not a computer expert ) it did 100% of the tests and then I had the option to continue and that was the end. Did I pass? I haven't got a clue
colleen --- Did the test- & failed 4- RTC [whatever that is?] DOS, Bios & Windows.
Shadowfax__A --- I said that I tested compliant but I did not pass the RTC test.
Since it said that I was compliant, I thought I was ok. Earlier ---Shadowfax__A ---COMPLIANT
Mtn Bear ( SE ) ---Failed first 4 Items; Already knew RTC problem; planned upgrade early next year
LongorShort --- checked compliant. even with 1st item failed ( RTC ) .
Speed --- I tried the program, failed the first four tests, downloaded a ROMPAQ from Compaq ( I own a Presario ) , upgraded my BIOS using the ROMPAQ and passed the tests. On the last pass, the RTC test showed failure but the program pronounced my pc 2000 compliant anyway.
crossbow --- Failed the first 4 tests, passed the rest.
kuston --- RTC fail. My home PC passed everything except RTC.
Flash Gordon --- my computer failed the first test:RTC date of 01/01/2000, but passed all the others. ( purchased december 1997 ) .
Maureen --- I just did the test and the first item had a red circle forget what it was. something like RTC ?
What does that mean? Everything else checked out ok.
Reify --- Went to the sight you recommended to test my PC for compliance and it isn't
Gollum ---I retested one of the machines that had passed our tests previously except using the test from the site you suggested.
It passed all test except the first RTC test ( for 01/01/2000 ) . I then reran our tests and they still passed.
Gollum --- We were contracturally obligated to be compliant both in the bios and the real time clock. We ran the tests not only on the new machines which all passed, but also some of the older ones for which there was no obligation. New ones passed, some of the old ones did too.
Gollum --- They were checked both for bios compliance and real time clock compliance. Almost all new PC's less than a year or two old pass. No one has been buying any hardware or software thta doesn't pass compliance testing for over a year now, not in the big companies anyway.
Gollum --- All the machines ( 15 ) I have tested were compliant except for a couple of old 386's and a 486. Even there the only problem was that the date didn't click over and had to be set manually.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:14 - ID#261304)
More Gold

Watch that bond market,if it quiets
down we could get a technical ( shorts covering ) rally and pick up a few bucks this point it shouldn't take much to panic the shorts...GOLD held up well against a massive move into the bonds ...gonna buy more gold...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:15 - ID#43460)
Looks like Bonnie's coming to Washington!
to give Bill a REAL B.J.! I wonder what the pog will be when D.C. is underwater?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:17 - ID#227238)
Yes, indeed. A little R&R is in order. A grand tour of the temples and shrines of SE Asia. Beginning with a revisit of the Grand Palace in Bangkok. ..... and finishing with Ankor Wat in Cambodia. I've tried to get there 3 times in past years but, unfortunately, each time was preceded by a period of unpleasantness and travel agents were unwilling to book passage into the area........ With a suitable amount of time devoted to enjoying the rooftop bar of the Rex in Saigon. Phai khong?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:17 - ID#228128)
Thanks for the update. Much appreciated. I'm on the sidelines for now. Will wait for a couple of days to see if we break resistance at 1100-1105. Will go short below 1075.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:17 - ID#340459)
More than 60% of the Americans seem to approve illicit sex with junior staff in Oval Office, they
also dont mind Presidential lies under oath and on TV. What message are we giving to our children about moral conduct. A CEO of a corporation or School Headmaster would be summarily dismissed and charged under similiar circumstances. How can unusual sexual acts by an authoritative figure in Oval office White House ( sanctified sanctorium ) with a young intern half his age during office time and on Tax payer's clock be deemed private matter by majority of Americans as per the polls. Are Americans governed by polls or by laws.

When the body of US law makers i.e. "US Congress" majority say that they do not mind such lying, perjury and illicit sex in office it speaks volumes on cancerous moral decay in society.

Newt Gingrich says he is looking for a pattern of continued misdemeneours to even consider impeachment, What kind of a crap bag do they have for House Speaker ( of Law maker's ) , Does the "Leader of the Free World" have lesser moral integrity than a Basketball or a Hockey coach.

Even the American news is unfit for children, let alone the moral decadence that is coming out of Hollywood and TV to annihilate all that is decent for families.

If most American's think that material wealth makes a better society, then let's look at the civilizations that took a dive due to moral decadence like the Greek's, Roman's, Mayan's, Egyptians etc.

When Mother's kill their children on childbirth and dump them in garbage and continue with Prom Night. When children like Kinkel kill their parents inspite of parents buying all that he desired including guns, these are examples of the future offspring fed on TV and Hollywood.

Integrity, Decency, order in society etc. are all dependant on soundness and continuity of family unit in society. When this goes awry then it is just a matter of time before such civilization implodes from within.

When majority of people in America condone lying, infidelity and cheating by Administrative Icons than time is nigh for erosion of that society.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:19 - ID#288295)

I agree - it is one of the most powerful works I've ever come across. It will either change the way you look at things forever, or you will think it is complete nonsense. I am in the former camp.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:21 - ID#57232)
If Europe falters, the US dollar will lead
LGB: I agree with you 100% on that one. Europe is supposedly coming out of a recession right now, and the turmoil of the EURO is supposed to be their salvation. And as you rightly point out, the Russian situation will probably make the Europeans very unhappy campers. My guess is that the situation will resemble the 1993 situation -- the last big European currency crisis -- when gold and the dollar went up substantially together.

The relative strength of gold to the US dollar will depend on how the Europeans view buying gold over the US dollar. Several items are clear -- gold is portable and traditionally a European choice in crisis. My guess is that if we have a Russian revolution -- we will have a gold rally, but we will not like what comes with it.

Whether the US markets rally along with the dollar will depend more on WJC's fortunes. Up alot if WJC is able to resurrect his tarnished reputation, and less so if not.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:24 - ID#373284)
all that is me, fell out of a car...
only a broken shoulder..Love to you all, always LOVE...I will live...mean like you do not know ya....

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:25 - ID#340459)
As the common Russians are helpless in removing Yeltsin inspite of public drunkeness, so are the
American helpless with BC philandering in Oval Office.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:25 - ID#234218)
Passed all but RTC. Still said 100% compliant. Curious, how do you miss 1 and still get 100%? Is it grading on a curve?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:27 - ID#227238)
I have thought about it the same way. A third rate novel but a truly profound message. ...... Each weekend that ROR gets on his Demo/Soc hobby horse is like revisiting whole paragraphs from the book. ..... Any announcement out of DC ( regardless of party ) is a reprint of whole chapters. ....... Published 40 years ago and it's as cogent as today's headlines. That broad had her stuff wired tightly together. Yessir.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:28 - ID#347447)
Beats me. I just know there is a good chance we've just completed an abc correction off the first wave of the fifth of a primary third wave bull market. That leaves a rally to new highs, a corrective wave, and one more thrust up before the whole primary third wave is over. This thing can get to 12,000, let alone 10. That could put the big correction everyone is looking for here into the year 2000. All I know is the market is set up like a bottom right now based on all the factors I enumerated earlier. Hey, you know me - I'm a monster bull on gold, and am amazed at how high this stock market has gone, - but markets always amaze. That's why gold and oil will be doing, for the next 2 decades, what general stocks have done for the past 2. And where they'll end up will amaze. I think the oil shares have already put in the first 2 waves of a five wave first leg of massive asset inversion bull market. There will be 2 5-wave legs to come after. The initial wave 2 usually retraces most all the gain of the first, and oil shares have done this. They are now the biggest bargains, next to gold miners, in all of stock-dom.The real impetus to the end-game will be rising rates, all the deflationists around here notwithstanding. In the mid 80's I told some RE people that the biggest danger we faced was Deflation, and that it would be the next trend. Well, that has happened ( look at gold, RE, and oil and commodities ) and it is now ENDING. RE is now recovering. Mortgage rates are holding above their previous lows even tho the Bond is at its lowest ever. With NO currency tied to gold anywhere, you just won't see the kind of deflation some folks are looking for.

As for Russia and Clinton, they don't mean squat to this equation. They are on their way to being ignored. And rightly so. Markets are about money, interest rates, and exchange values. There is no competition for the US now. And nobody wants to leave the party. The small caps will flag the end, and I see tremendous values in many of these ignored shares. Avanti! Uno Mas!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:29 - ID#340459)
@tolerant1 - Sorry to hear about your shoulder, May God grant you speedy recovery, Amen
The American popular attitude to BC is appalling and makes my blood boil to think that this is moral values of the strongest country in the World, who are keen to export their way of life to the entire world.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:29 - ID#255151)

Good to have you bach. Hope you have a well tempered clavicle.

Charles Keeling
(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:30 - ID#344225)
@ MIDAS RE: Your 21:17
I agree with your post 100 %. However, Gingrich
probably already knows that a pattern does exist that
shows that multiple perjuries have been committed by
the perp in chief. Perhaps he wants to be viewed as
"bending over backwards" before even thinking about
IMPEACHMENT. Based on what I have read, the man,
WJC, has been living a lie for over 20 years. He has
left a trail of people who have been decimated by his
lies and wrong doing. Witness the number of his own
staff that are under indictment. Also, his associates
who have ben incarcerated.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:30 - ID#17077)
Date: Mon Aug 24 1998 19:57
Rumpled ( DA GOLDEN ) ID#411233:
Copyright  1998 Rumpled/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
1.--Gold is dead, and there isn't going to be a resurrection.

( As long as my wife lusts for gold and diamond bracelets, gold & diamond earrings, gold and diamond pendants, etc., then I KNOW gold is NOT dead. Not now nor ever ) .

2.--The stock market is not going to crash, corrections on the way up are normal.

( This stock market has been in a state of de facto verticality for the past two years. Since it effectively missed two years worth of normal "corrections," then the next notable "correction" will be the equivalent of a crash )

3.--Little Joe is not going to make large mutual fund redemptions, come hell or high water.

( Based upon the past three years, Little Joe does NOT know what it is like to lose money in the general equities markets. Meanwhile, Little Joe's lifestyle has appreciated considerably over this time. Moreover, he's been encouraged by various financial institutions to borrow to the hilt, leveraging his home and his credit card balances. He's bought himself some new cars, an expensive house in the swank part of town, and a little vacation home by the beach. Once Little Joe starts to see his Net Worth drop around 20% by Fall, then he is going to panic. Little Joe then becomes Little Jitters. The Mutual Funds phone lines will become one long busy signal. No if, buts, or maybes ) .

4.-- Any scared money leaving the markets, is going into bonds, and if they fall out of favor, back into GIC'S or term deposits.

( The bonds bubble is actually far worse than the equities bubble at this point in time. Bonds have assumed their own unique mode of verticality.
One little interest hike and the bonds bubble will burst so fast it will make your head spin. An interest rate hike will probably arise if the US government is compelled to defend the Dollar. The Dollar will likely require defending if there arises a crisis of confidence in the American government ( which is slowly developing thanks to Prez Hardon ) .

5.--Little Joe would sooner keep his money in his pillow, than to invest in PM'S.

( Interestingly, Little Joe is not unaware of PM's and their existence. He hears about them all the time. However, his experience with them over the past decade has been negative. Moreover, his fund manager ( who he regards as a "genius" ) has warned him to stay away from that crap! His fund manager has advised him that, if he is feeling nervous about the market, then he should stick his monies in the major Dow stocks ( Coke, Disney, Walmart, etc. Or his fund manager has extolled the virtues of Bonds and Utes. Again, if there is any reason for interest rates to spike up suddenly, then all these over-inflated assets will drop like rocks. Suddenly, Mr. Fund Manager will not look so smart. Disgruntled, Little Joe will rush to those investments his Fund Manager once so defamed and disparaged. It is the inevitable rebellion of the disillusioned faithful ) .

6.--Business as usual, Jan 1--2000.

( In Your Dreams ) .

7.--People should not exceed the daily recommended dose, when taking strong cold medication.

( People should also not fall in love with any trend and expect it to continue ad infinitum ) .

8.--And finally from Dylan ( Bob ) --"When they asked him why it had to be that way, well he answered JUST BECAUSE".

( And as John Cougar Mellencamp once said, "And the walls come tumbling down...and the walls come tumbling down...." )


( Thanks.

F* )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:31 - ID#432221)
I am 100% in agreement with MIDAS, We are on a FASTRACK to the APOCOLYPSE

This has occurred before our own eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:32 - ID#317193)
Gollum 20:52...yes....and
as the debt default continues and money is destroyed the great derivative debacle will one day present itself to the world without warning or notice.

Until then it is internet stocks to the END. Hope I know when to bolt...when gold starts to rise. Yes?


(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:36 - ID#396249)
ROR......I try very hard with you what I ask you to do is read this a great read..PH in LA
should like it and STRAD MASTER relate...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:37 - ID#340459)
Charles, Thanks.. If BC continues to rule the Free World, I would be totally convinced that Congress
is nothing but a bunch of swindler's who moral outlook is based on polls and not a body worth being called the highest lawmakers of the Land.

I dont expect anything good from Gingrich, whose integrity seems equally
questionable and constantly mutant to winds of opportunity.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:38 - ID#202123)

My computer tested the same as yours--- failed the first test ( RTC ) and passed all the others, but I was given 100% on compliance. My thoughts are as yours.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:44 - ID#431116)
Sharefin...Computer test
Failed first 4 for 1/1/2000...on Pentium II purchased Feb 98

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:45 - ID#25257)
Leland+Silverbaron Re:FCX
It seems rather odd in view of the Bass purchase that my FCXPrA has been falling of late; is this the issue purachased or it the B or D shares?

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:47 - ID#259400)
@Mike Sheller
I understood most of your post but I couldn't get a feel for the time frame. What are your thoughts on when gold and gold mining stocks will recover? Thanks.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:50 - ID#219363)
@Mike Sheller
I'd love to believe what you're saying - I made money in the market for the past bunch of years. When I just sit quietly for a moment, clear my head of all the things I read and see, and try to get in touch with what my intuition is whispering to me - it doesn't feel promising. Without analysis, my intuition is saying "You'd be a sucker to put your money back into this market", and it isn't whispering, it's flat out telling me. Just looking at it with common everyday horse sense - if the market is going to go up: how much up-side will there be ? Enough to justify taking a chance on it ? If it's going to go down: how much down-side will there be ? Seems pretty obvious to me that putting money in the market right now would be silly - if it's going down, and it's been going down for a month now, why would I put money in ? If it's going to reach new highs, it'll go up for a while, and there will be plenty of time to re-evaluate the situation after we go through 9000, or 9500, or 10K. In short - if the bulls are right, I missed out on some up-side. If the bears are right - I've saved my ass. To me, the risk isn't worth it.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:50 - ID#43349)
Stay near the door, and don't wait for gold to rise before bolting. I have reason to think we'll see gold down some more and the subsequent rise is too close to the bolting time to tell if it's before, during, or after.

So far the DOW is tracking very closely to our little typical-DOW-bear=market chart:

The chart suggested last Friday's wild flight, today's flat flight and suggests tomorrows flattish but more optimistic flight.

I should point out that the crash of '29, and the trash of '87 were similar. One difference between the two being that in '29 the banking system collapsed and the subsequent great bear of '30 plunged us into the depression, but in '87 the wings stayed on and the system recovered in short order.

The chart suggests a labor day rally into mid-September, but bad things after that. One should watch carefully. If the line should depart the chart in either direction, either exuberantly too high or despairingly too low, it will be time to bolt. If not, I would get out by mid September no matter what gold was doing.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 21:55 - ID#255151)
Hurricane Bonnie

Heading toward North Carolina with 115 MPH winds. Washington DC does indeed appear to be in Bonnie's path.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:05 - ID#373284)
thank you...left hand trying...mashed the shoulder....Mike Sheller...
I Love you and yours...tears...thanks for the moment...thanks...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:08 - ID#234218)
@ Envy
I agree with your thinking. The only way I have to guage my investments is pure gut instinct and intuition. It hasn't done me too bad. It seems as though there are way too many influences on the markets these days. I would rather regret the money I could have made than to be kicking my butt daily for the money I had and threw away. Too much downside risk to markets now, far less in gold and oil.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:12 - ID#341234)
Moore Research Center
I am not to sure about these guys.

They show the Dow rallying to 9000 in September and bottoming in November at 8200.

But, they show the S&P 500 bottoming at 1020 in September and rallying to 1250 in November.

It looks like they are trying to have it both ways.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:16 - ID#57232)
Take care!
tolerant1: Hope you recover quickly. Gram doses of Vit C ( 2 gm per day is certainly safe ) , and 400 u/day Vit E would probably help. Calcium, I would guess too, for bone formation. The classical use of Vit C is for wound healing, and now we know it does much more, in addition to enhancing the effect of Vit E. If you haven't already, try searching on PubMed.

Best wishes to you -- JTF

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:21 - ID#284255)
Snowball - Weiser
The failure of real time clocks has been overlooked.
It's almost like they don't think that it matters.
So long as your PC passes all the other tests they proclaim that it's okay.

But the effects of "Time Warping" are real and documented.
It's been discussed alot by the Comp-SoftwareYear2000 newsgroup.
It is mentioned clearly here on this site:
As well as the other references I've posted.

Miro a few months back agreed to its authenticity.
It actually has a name - the Crouch-Echlin effect.

Prove IT2000 who just discovered the time bug in Win98
Has just done tests in NZ and found 90% of PC's have this problem.

Now most people testing for Y2k compliancy have overlooked the problem.
They don't realise the potential effects.

How many PC's globally have been pronounced compliant and forgotten about and yet have this fault included?
How many Gov't agencies "think" they have done their checks and are OK?
And the utilities???

There is a very rude awakening coming.
It's called chaos.

There is a lot of denial.
Many people "think" their PC's are okay.

But 90% is an enormous ammount of dysfunctional machines.
That in itself is enough to disrupt our civilised way of life.

The reason I have stressed this concern,
Is to bring to peoples attention,
That all is not as it seems.

Ask Gollum, 4 denials before he actually checked and then reality hits home.
How many more like this?

Got gold, guns and grub???

The future success of Y2k is not convincing at this stage - at all.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:22 - ID#43460)
Auric re hurricaines, floods and quakes and economic influences.
I believe in our consumer oriented society such disasters stimulate "growth" in the same way as the old Potlatch rituals of the Indian tribes around the Puget Sound area did a few hundred years ago. First all the wealth is heaped up into a pile then burned then the people scurry around making new goods to destroy next year. IMHO

Or perhaps the effect could be likened to the ancients wasting decades hauling rocks around in the desert to build pyramids. In our case it is condos build on little sand spits in the ocean and cities built in river swamps but the effect is the same, massive expenditure, inflation and work for everybody in town. IMHO

You know the northeast corner of a hurricane landfall is the worst due to the wind effect on the high tides? IMHO

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:25 - ID#347447)
Snowball, Envy
You are both right inasmuch as we must all go by our own lights in this. You must bear in mind that when I talk about buying stocks other than gold miners, price and other factors are very important. I am NOT a mutual fund person, so I look for shares that have been beaten down and wrung out and are making what I believe to be bottoms ( reducing downside risk ) and have what I consider to be excellent astrologicals coming in. Don't forget, I'm an astrologer. That aside, I'm a technician - because I will never know what's happening in a company before the insiders or the sponsorship, so fundamentals are always too little too late. When I talk about possible Dow 12,000 I am certainly not saying anyone should go out and buy the market. I am just stating what I see as a distinct technical possibility. I personally look for individual stocks that I feel will at LEAST double off their bases from here in six months to a year if the market just stays afloat. I would certainly not want to take the risk for merely another 10 or 15% on the Dow or S&P, and I am not comfortable with options. So I look for special situations where the fundamentals, technicals, and astrologicals all come together for me. A lot of that is gut too. I suppose, in the end, its important for everyone to go with the sum total of our own experience. I'd rather make my own mistakes, so I understand what you're both saying and have no argument there.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:25 - ID#290172)
Tolerant1-Could this be so? Or true only for a Brit?

"A car crash harnesses elements of eroticism, aggression, desire, speed, drama, kinaesthetic factors, the stylizing of motion, consumer goods, status- all these in one event. I myself see the car crash as a tremenduous sexual event really: a liberation of human and machine libido ( if there is such a thing ) ."
J. G. Ballard ( b. 1930 ) , British author.

Very glad you're OK. Please take good care of yourself. ( This is not a request, this is a DEMAND--even if the experience was "interesting"! {:- ) )

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:28 - ID#57232)
DOW 10k?
Mike S, Gollum: One thing is certain -- not by Labor day! The Russian situation will take months, at least, and it will take months for the US economy to clearly falter. I don't think interest rates and the commodity price index will rise significantly for some time. I am beginning to think WJC's fortunes might improve when it becomes apparent to all that impeachment proceedings will wait until 1999. All depends on K Starr's discoveries.

There is some good news, though -- gold is getting stronger compared to the commodity price index ( cry0 ) -- but mostly because cry0 is falling off a cliff. Also gold is rising slowly relative to the dropping interest rates. So -- despite gold's inactivity, it is gaining relative strength. A key item is whether cry0 breaks below 200. If it does, gold might actually go lower.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:29 - ID#347447)
In which case, would it be proper to ask tolerant "Was it good for you?"

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:29 - ID#431200)
Doomsday talk generated by the year 2000 computer glitch is more fanciful than real.
Planes won't fall out of the sky, they say, nor will electrical blackouts engulf the world in darkness.
The Biggest Y2K Problem Might Be PCs, Not 'Big Iron'
By JUBE SHIVER JR., Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON--As companies race to fix computers to correctly handle dates in 2000, personal computers are threatening to eclipse mainframes as the biggest headache in the war to eradicate the millennium bug.
Although Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates proclaimed as recently as last year that "PCs are in good shape" for 2000, a growing number of experts say most personal computers--especially the more than 90 million computers still running Microsoft's Windows version 3.1 software or DOS--have serious year 2000 flaws.
A review in the July issue of Byte magazine, for example, found minor to significant flaws in all versions of Microsoft's Windows PC operating systems, some versions of Novell ) Corp.'s Netware and Dr. DOS and IBM Corp.'s PC DOS.
And Dell Computer Corp., one of the world's largest sellers of personal computers, acknowledges that software in a key microchip on Dell PC circuit boards purchased before 1997 won't properly handle dates after Dec. 31, 1999, unless the AYchip--called a "BIOS"--is modified. The same problem plagues hundreds of millions of PCs produced by other manufacturers.
The so-called year 2000 computer bug relates to the six-digit shorthand most computers use to express the month, day and year of an event. While the mm/dd/yy formula is simple and economical, the downside is that using only two digits for the year leaves 1900 indistinguishable from 2000.
Software interacting with a computer's BIOS--an acronym for a computer's basic input-output system--can erroneously interpret the glitch in a number of ways. In the case of MS-DOS and old versions of Windows, Jan. 1, 2000, will be interpreted as Jan. 1, 1980, for example. Other software programs might revert to the year 1900 or refuse to operate altogether.
Experts say the calendar mistakes can potentially result in miscalculation of mortgage rates, rejection of valid credit card purchases and the creation of erroneous spreadsheets that stockbrokers and others rely on to trade billions of dollars worth of shares. Yet few PC users seem to be aware of the potential for disaster.
Big corporations have taken the lead attacking the year 2000 bug. But they've mostly concentrated on their so-called big iron--the mainframe computers running Cobol and other workhorse business software. Little attention has been paid to PCs, for the most part.
"There is the impression that PCs are way down the food chain" as far as being a year 2000 priority, said Karl Feilder, chief executive of software developer Greenwich Mean Time and PC program coordinator of the British government's year 2000 task force. But Feilder noted that when the 1,000 largest U.S. companies were asked what type of equipment they were using to run their most important business tasks, 64% said personal computers and just 8% said mainframes.
Some experts, of course, say the doomsday talk generated by the year 2000 computer glitch is more fanciful than real. Planes won't fall out of the sky, they say, nor will electrical blackouts engulf the world in darkness.
But industry executives are beginning to admit that they were late to address the real year 2000 problems that do exist for personal computer users.
In 1996, Microsoft set up a Web site devoted to year 2000 issues and began testing its estimated 8,500 software products. But it wasn't until April 15 of this year that the company released initial testing results on a small fraction of its products, declaring 55 programs year 2000 compliant or "compliant with minor issues."
"We were late in delivering the depth of information that our customers needed," acknowledged Jason Matuso, Microsoft's year 2000 strategy manager. "We've now made sure our customers understand that we are taking the problem seriously from the top down."
The about-face has left organizations from brokerage houses to the federal government to private law firms scrambling to upgrade or fix tens of millions of PCs.
Dan Kusnetzky, program director for Boston-based research firm International Data Corp., predicted that the PC housecleaning could produce a kind of perverse financial bonanza for an industry that only recently began to address the year 2000 issue.
Orem, Utah-based software developer Caldera Inc. and IBM, for instance, have capitalized on the bug by updating and proclaiming their venerable DOS software products year 2000 compliant. The two companies, however, also offer free year 2000 fixes for many of their software products.
Microsoft, which has a staff of more than 100 people trying to fix year 2000 glitches in the company's software, has also been offering free upgrades to users.
Microsoft's Matuso and a Novell executive disputed the year 2000 findings of Byte magazine and contend that their most up-to-date software products contain only minor bugs. Matuso added that any remaining glitches in Microsoft operating systems will be fixed well before Jan. 1, 2000.
Matuso said the bugs found by Byte stem mostly from old computer BIOS chips, which are beyond the control of the software maker to correct since the chips are made by hardware manufacturers. He said, however, that Windows 98 and updated versions of Windows NT have a software patch that corrects erroneous BIOS chips in 70% of today's computers.
But Michael Stanko, director of information systems for Los Angeles-based law firm Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker, said he has become nervous that even modern and robust software operating systems such as Windows 98 and Windows NT don't offer a completely safe harbor from year 2000 problems.
He said computer networks managed by Windows NT could be vulnerable to attacks by hackers or have their computer-file maintenance routines disrupted on Feb. 29, 2000, because the operating software doesn't recognize 2000 as a leap year.
Times staff writer Jube Shiver Jr. can be reached via e-mail at

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:32 - ID#347447)
tolerant 1
If you wash dfown JTF's vitamin-packed prescription with kopious kwantities of Jose Cuervo, you should be just fine.

Actually, you should have had all that Cuervo BEFORE you fell out of the car.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:37 - ID#373284)
for Mike Sheller, gosh this hurts...not in that way...all that is you makes my imagine
have a life, petals...broken shoulder and of you...the crush of you polishes Christmas Bulbs from the inside out...tears...ouch...gulp to ya...gulp to ya and thanks for the ya...all that is me will defend your you...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:37 - ID#317193)
Gollum...thanks for the THOUGHTS...
my ventures into the market are now few and far between with stops set rather close. We watch this ne...never mind.

I think gold will rally this week. Not based on the charts...based on the yen. Physical is my bet for the next year or two. Crazy? Perhaps, but much safer. Asset preservation is the name of the game ...soon.


Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:40 - ID#347447)
tolerant 1
good thing you didn't fall on your head

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:41 - ID#43349)
No, not by labor day. Nor by Christmas.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:42 - ID#43460)
Y2k worries?
So we might ought to search the web for our motherboard and bios makers for bios updates? Anyone with a flash bios who knows their motherboard and bios specs should be able to track down an update, yes? If not, I've noticed a lot of ads recently in Computer shopper for new bios chips and for patch boards which are advertised to fix the problem. And if those don't work we can always mine our 'puters for the gold in the circuit boards and chips. IMHO

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:43 - ID#57232)
JOC Dropping a bit, but still about 6/19/98 low
All: I'm not sure Kaplan has it right about his stongly bullish stance on gold -- sure looks weak to me right now. But -- he reports the JOC spot commodities index almost daily. That index bottomed on 6/19 at 94.19 according to Kaplan, and rose to 96.83 on 7/23. Now, it is dropping again -- currently at 96.01. Prospects for gold will improve if the JOC starts rising again, thought I suspect that it will not really begin to move until cry0 bottoms -- as that index seems more widely followed.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:45 - ID#284255)
Global Intelligence Update
Sudan Suggests Egyptian Complicity in Chemical Plant Attack

Despite detailed U.S. claims that its attacks on suspected terrorist-
related facilities in Sudan and Afghanistan were carried out solely by
means of Tomahawk cruise missiles, Sudan has insisted since the day of the
attack that U.S. aircraft attacked the Shifa chemical plant in Khartoum.
Additionally, Sudanese officials, including the president and foreign
minister, have repeatedly suggested that neighboring states may have
facilitated the attack. On August 20, Sudanese Interior Minister Abdul
Rahim said that "two American warplanes" had dropped bombs on the chemical
plant. Another Sudanese government report immediately after the bombing
said that "five air raid strikes" had taken place.

The initial Sudanese reports could have been written off as confusion, but
Sudanese armed forces spokesman Lieutenant General Abd al-Rahman Sirr al-
Khatim told Sudan's state radio on August 22 that the U.S. attack had
involved "American jet fighters," and that "the aircraft had crossed the
airspace of a neighboring country." The general claimed that the aircraft
had been sighted by eyewitnesses and Sudanese radar stations.

Also on August 22, in a live interview on Qatar's "Al-Jazeera" television,
Sudanese President Omar Hasan al-Bashir insisted that, "Since the
industrial zone and this factory are located in the heart of Khartoum, many
people saw the U.S. aircraft while they were bombarding the factory." He
said that "these aircraft remained over the target for approximately 12
minutes. Many people saw these aircraft, including some of our air force
pilots." According to al-Bashir, the pilots identified the aircraft as
U.S. "fighter bombers 111 or 118." However, the U.S. no longer uses F-111
fighter bombers, and it has no fighter aircraft designated "118." Perhaps
al-Bashir mislabeled the F-117 Stealth fighter ( though that would not have
been detectable by radar installations, as General al-Khatim had stated ) or
the F-18 Hornet ( though al-Bashir also stated that the aircraft were of a
type which could not fly from an aircraft carrier, something an F-18
certainly can do ) .

Addressing the issue of possible complicity by a neighboring state in the
attack, Al-Bashir said "We are sure that the aircraft that attacked the
factory are not of the kind that can fly from an aircraft carrier,
considering that there is no aircraft carrier in the Red Sea and, at the
moment, there is no aircraft carrier in the region. More often, these
aircraft take off from bases." He said that Sudan was "certain now that
these aircraft came from the north, because they flew over the city of
Berber, which is more than 300 km north of Khartoum. After completing
their mission, these aircraft also left towards the north." He said that
the aircraft "broke the sound barrier over Berber."

On Monday, August 24, al-Bashir was more explicit about his suspicions,
telling journalists that he hoped the aircraft involved in the attack "had
not taken off from Egypt." However, he noted "We are not singling out any
country. We don't have any information confirming which airport these
planes took off from." In a further implication of Egypt, al-Bashir said
the U.S. had received its intelligence on the plant from the Sudanese
opposition in Cairo. Finally, in his Qatari television interview, al-
Bashir said that the reaction to the attack from many Arab states,
including Egypt, was "weak."

Egyptian Foreign Minister Amr Moussa on Sunday denied that the attack on
the Shifa plant involved aircraft. Egypt's statement on the U.S. attack
was less than Sudan would have hoped for. On August 21, an official
Egyptian government statement said that terrorist incidents should be
addressed by the UN Security Council, and on August 22, Moussa told the
Sudanese Ambassador to Egypt that "all measures against terrorism must be
taken through international legitimacy and under the umbrella of the United

In another move that could not have amused Khartoum, Moussa met on August
22 with Sudanese opposition National Democratic Alliance ( NDA ) chairman
Mohammad Uthman al-Mirghani to discuss developments in Sudan. The NDA had
issued a statement on August 21 essentially blaming Khartoum for bringing
the strike on itself when it "opened the doors of Sudan to international
extremist and terrorist groups, provided them with shelter and training,
supplied them with weapons and funds, and helped them infiltrate other
countries to implement criminal schemes." The NDA claimed that Khartoum
had adopted a policy of state terrorism against the majority, including
"the use of the internationally banned weapons against Sudanese citizens in
the Nuba mountains."

We are not going to speculate on the veracity of Sudanese claims of U.S.
warplane strikes versus Washington's assertions that only Tomahawk
missiles, fired from ships, were involved in the attack on the Shifa plant.
There are both intriguing details and clear impossibilities in the Sudanese
accounts. What we do note is that Sudan is implicating both Egypt and the
Egyptian-hosted, U.S.-backed, Sudanese opposition in the attack, and that
Egypt is doing little to challenge that accusation.

Long before the U.S. attack on Sudan, the Global Intelligence Update
reported on the ongoing and constantly shifting struggle between the U.S.-
sponsored Sudanese rebels and Khartoum, including the roles of Sudan's
neighbors. Egypt and Sudan have long been at odds over Egyptian claims
that Sudan harbored and supported Islamic fundamentalist terrorists and
Sudanese claims that Egypt harbored and supported Sudanese rebels. The
Egyptian Jihad group, which was responsible for the assassination of
Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, has been linked both to Sudan and to Osama
bin-Laden. Egypt has also accused Sudan of training and arming the
terrorists who attempted to assassinate Sadat's successor, Hosni Mubarak.

The case could easily be made that Egypt would have supported a strike on
Khartoum. Whether they were given the opportunity to do so is far from
certain. Regardless of whether or not Egypt played a role in the U.S.
attack, the fact that Sudan is claiming they did can only lead to a
reversal of any recent improvement in relations between the two countries,
and could lead to an escalation both of terrorist incidents in Egypt and
rebel offensives in Sudan.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:45 - ID#373284)
all that is you teaches me to be much more...tears...

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:48 - ID#255151)
Another Healing Tip For Shoulders

Take an ice pack and loosely fill it with Gold and Silver coins. Add cold tap water, then put in freezer for 30 minutes. Drop frozen ice pack on concrete several times. You then have each coin frozen in ice. Lay the ice pack over injured shoulder. A G&P enhance the effect.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:50 - ID#202123)

Thanks! Very informative. And I checked out the link. I'm like 'duh' on the caveats but everything I do with this computer/software has big beware signs flashing across my mind. : ) I appreciate your reply and I'm grateful I have notice to get it fixed.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:51 - ID#347447)
I see the mining stocks and gold of course recovering at the end of this year, and certainly in '99, with a first important peak area 2003-2005. This will probably include a monster silver boom of epic proportions. I get important astrological readings on a carload of gold stocks and oil shares as well in that time frame. This looks like an important general natural resource play coming up. We are in the pits now, but everything has now been discounted, and will change. At the end of '97 I said that oil would bounce along a bottom for most of '98. Saturn is opposing NYSE Neptune all year and it's an astrological no-brainer. Saturn moves off in early '99. The oils and oil service shares will revive in '99, probably after January/February. Stuff like CRK, TMAR, small drillers, producers, and the like will probably be 100-200% higher than current levels by late '99, or early 2000. With more to go. The first decade of the new century will be good for gold, with 2007 the next buying opportunity, only at a much higher level than today of course. Once this bull gets off the ground, it is going to be longterm. And BIG.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:51 - ID#215208)
The murky picture is starting to clear. I think the channels charts are beginning to speak to me again.

All metals seem to be at the bottom of their channels. No big surprise. However it seems both silver and palladium have poked through their respective lines of resistance connecting the recent highs. I lucked out and bought back into silver at a good price ( 5.05 ) , so am well positioned for the move. Gold is so dead, its hard to tell if its really moving. Kind of like a glacier ... you have to watch it for a long time. Platinum has sought out my lower channel ( the gold one in previous charts ) , a little disappointing. I got in a bit early, but averaged down to 373.5, an OK starting point. Now have a full load. If the small move we saw today continues into tomorrow, it may well break through its line of resistance ... and Platinum II, The Summer Ecstasy, will officially begin.

The channels paint a glowing picture of pending opportunity. However, there is an alternative. If I wanted to, I could easily construct a channel scenario that has all metals breaking through to new lows. I don't even want to contemplate this scenario, since my bets are placed. I am encouraged by the recent action of silver and palladium, but will not relax until platinum and even gold begin to participate.

If silver, platinum and palladium start moving, its hard to believe that gold can do the opposite.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:52 - ID#316193)
The Bass family apparently purchased 678,700 shares of Freeport
Mc Moran preferred class "C".

This is a web site showing performance of preferred class "A",
"B", "C", and "D".

Mike Sheller
(Mon Aug 24 1998 22:54 - ID#347447)
are those them bags of coins they're always selling to the rubes when silver pops?
Frozen too, huh.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:09 - ID#347267)
the newt
All: Do you not remember newt's "sudden change from ready to impeach at the drop of a hat, to like today's comments all wishy-washey it will take many ----?????? Do you not KNOW that those files that Billary ( plural ) have puhlenty on bro newt who has already proved himself a cheat liar and crooked POLITICIAN!!!! They ain't gonn impeach the sobs; there are too many rotten apples in congress. Mtn Bear rollin th rock

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:10 - ID#173148)
Sometimes you make sense and then suddenly you lapse into a fearful illogical state. The following earlier quote of yours today speaks of "a panicky environment." If there is any panic today, its that a gold retailer may refuse to buy gold ( at the rate things are going ) ! You are aware for example that the decline in gold stocks has exceeded the general market decline of the past few weeks? Are you suggesting that this could reverse tomorrow or next week or next month? What sudden event could make it possible that I wouldn't have time to buy back in?

"I expect it will become readily apparent that, relative to the ensuing
demand, there is absolutely NO abundance of gold and gold coinage in the land. Moreover, I can assure you that a gold retailer WILL NOT take your check and make gold available to you in such a panicky environment. No way! You better have a lot of cash on hand and a good relationship established with a gold outlet. At the same time, Gold stocks may slingshot upward with such force ( given the relatively tiny size of the entire investment sector ) that you might have to pay several hundreds percent more for a viable gold stock than what you would pay for it today. In other words, the aggregate demand should far outweigh the suppply."

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:12 - ID#234218)
@ Mike Sheller
Thanks, I always appreciate and enjoy your insights and humor. Along with instinct, a health dose a varing opinions and analysis never hurts.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:14 - ID#227238)
"ASB.... Got gold, guns and grub???" .... Sharefin, was that you said that??? Or did someone steal yer handle.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:15 - ID#255151)
Mike Sheller 22:54

Those very same bags of Silver.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:17 - ID#234218)
@ Sharefin
Thanks to you for all your work. I set my PC clock to 12/31/99 at 11:50 PM. Waited 30 minutes and fired it back up with no noticeable problems. You know, no smoke, vibrations, obscene warnings, or gestures. Time will tell. I still do not take Y2K lightly. Planning on reasonable preparations, but will use common sense too. Will have gold, grocery store, cave and have WWII surplus tank tuned up. Just some minor precautions.

The Hatt
(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:20 - ID#294232)
I understand that the USA are keeping a lid on Gold however i donot............
understand why those foolish Aussies push gold lower each and every night! I understand the currency premium but I would of thought that the A## H### producers would have enough common sense to realize that they are cutting their own throats. Sell all Aussie Gold Stocks and then maybe these idiots would get the picture!

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:21 - ID#411233)
I sure as hell hope your right! I'm a gambler, it's the only vice I have left,
since I gave up the sauce 6 years ago. At present I have about 80K in
TVX stock, avg out to $3.60 a share CDN. This is play money, so I can
wait it out. I believe that within a year, perhaps even less, that I will at
the very least double my money. Hey, Such Are The Thoughts.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:22 - ID#227238)
You scoundrel. .. Add one more to the RTC failure list. I put this machine together in June. It passed everything except the RTC.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:31 - ID#57232)
Potential y2k glitch
sharefin: I think I have a partial answer regarding why so few truly y2k compliant computers. If the problem is proper vs improper inclusion of a leap year, simple running of the clock from Dec 31 1999 into Jan 2000 is not sufficient, as nothing bad will happen.

However, if the internal computer clock is compared to another more accurate one that is corrected for leap year, an error will flag.

I am not certain how important missing leap year could be for a computer -- certainly it will be one day off after leap year passes. Of course, it is still better if the date does not need to be manually reset after the leap year event. Hopefully all other dates that year would still be correct -- so that manual correction would be possible. Don't know.

Another item is whether those who tested their computers used Windows 95 with the Microsoft patch intended ( ostensibly ) to make Win 95 y2k compliant.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:47 - ID#202123)

Did you run the compliance test again? Or would that matter, concerning the changes that were made. Just wondering.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:47 - ID#287193)
gagnrad (Y2k worries? )
considering all the money I have spend on pc's during the last 13 years,
what about just buying 'another' box for X-mass 1999.
I missed you. I am posting the positive url's. What about this? I do not know to much about the big problems. There are more and more good news
about Y2k to find.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:52 - ID#411233)
If SLICK WILLIE isn't run out of town by an angry mob, calling for his head, and very soon, then I think the rest of the world is going to lose
what little respect they had left for America. I refuse to believe that the
majority of Americans still support this weasel. The polls have got to be
another fabrication.

(Mon Aug 24 1998 23:53 - ID#284255)
That was I.
No one has replaced me as yet ( :- ) ) )

Re rolling over your PC.
You will notice no RTC faults initially.
You will have to wait many hours before it becomes noticable.

The "Time Warping" effect.

Roll your PC over into the next century.
Use it as normal turning it on in the morning and off at night.
Leaving it on for 8 hours a day etc.

After a week or two into the new year you will notice that the date is leaping ahead faster than a bullet.
Tests done have shown PC clocks to advance 9 months in two weeks.

Read this page to enlighten yourself:

And then think of the impact.

Who cares about time???

How many PC's?